Theos-Talk Archives (August 2012 Message tt00039)

Dear Friends,
I'm sorry for the delay in answering the points made.
The Theosophical Society, to my understanding, is an open forum for all thinkers. I do not see any instance where people were asked/pressurized to 'follow' the 'orthodox theosophy'. I fail to understand what 'orthodoxy' in your view stands for. There is no such thing; Theosophy is universally ancient wisdom-religion. Men and women of the world are provided certain postulates for their examination.
Altruism is,first and foremost, theosophical characteristic attitude one is asked to understand and appreciate.
Certain personal attributes or notions of individuals, as such, cannot be considered as aspects of theosophy.
The subtle mind control, the science of which, being popularised by Mr M Sufilight is an interesting study to which every thinker must give attention.
Fraternally,
Dr Ramanujachary





Literature is for Portrayal of Philosophic Ideas.







Dr N C Ramanujachary(Srivirinchi)

Besant Gardens, The Theosophical Society, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 

Phone: 044/24913584, Mobile: 9444963584


From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@uCaKWIkGyIO1FmgxEr27LpvZ6USh-JA7SIWxhkCHCKJGw9ik_yuGPMAMsaOVX1q012iiObFrzjVHds4z2g-7FBiGgcDT5xc.yahoo.invalid>
Sent: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:37:56 
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: theos-talk --- Subtle Psychology - Arya Samaj and The TS-6




 

 








 



  


    
      
      
      Dear friends



My views are:



I thank you for your words again.

I have however failed to see any answer form you since July 6th. I might however have overlooked something.

Or maybe work has kept you away form the forum for a while.



If other readers would like to contribute to the questions I forwarded in the earlier post/mail in this thread, I will not hesitate to welcome them.



_________________

I repeat some of the words here:

_________________



I ask I the following conclusion true???



The conclusion about the Theosophical Society is that it welcomes all kinds a persons regardless of belief, if they at least seek to promote altruism. And nobody is being pressured to follow any dogma or religious system within the TS. 



Nobody!?



However on the other hand it seems that one in fact are being pressurized to follow Orthodox Theosophy!



How can this be reconciled I wonder....?



M. Sufilight



----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Ramanujachary nallanchakravarti 

  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 

  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 1:07 PM

  Subject: Re: theos-talk --- Subtle Psychology - Arya Samaj and The TS-6



Dear Mr Sufilight,

  Please let the total story be given out. Wait and see.

  we will discuss the whole matter.

  Fraternally, Dr N C R .



Literature is for Portrayal of Philosophic Ideas.



Dr N C Ramanujachary(Srivirinchi)



Besant Gardens, The Theosophical Society, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 



Phone: 044/24913584, Mobile: 9444963584



From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@uCaKWIkGyIO1FmgxEr27LpvZ6USh-JA7SIWxhkCHCKJGw9ik_yuGPMAMsaOVX1q012iiObFrzjVHds4z2g-7FBiGgcDT5xc.yahoo.invalid>

  Sent: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:33:07 

  To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>

  Subject: Re: theos-talk --- Subtle Psychology - Arya Samaj and The TS-6



 



Dear friends



My views are:



Interesting words about Arya Samaj (AS)...



I ask I the following conclusion true???



The conclusion about the Theosophical Society is that it welcomes all kinds a persons regardless of belief, if they at least seek to promote altruism. And nobody is being pressured to follow any dogma or religious system within the TS. 



Nobody!?



However on the other hand it seems that one in fact are being pressurized to follow Orthodox Theosophy!



How can this be reconciled I wonder....?



____________________________________



Some extra additional words to use in contrast with the hey-day of the 1920'ties of the Theosophical Society.......and even to be used today....so to promote altruism.



The german break-away theosophist Rudolf Steiner said really interestingly the following about the TS:



ROMAN CATHOLICISM



Dornach, June 6, 1920



"Why am I telling you these things, my dear friends? So that you may not take the matter too lightly. For in our anthroposophical spiritual science it is verily not a question of the sort of things which go on, for instance in the Theosophical Society. That the Theosophical Society is not to be taken seriously is clearly to be seen from the fact that one day it came to accept by a majority the whole farce of Krishnamurti as the reborn Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Such a comedy is only based on hypocrisy, even though this hypocrisy be taken seriously by many. But what should grow on the soil of Anthroposophy, of spiritual science, should be a search for truth, sincere through and through. It is therefore something which, as the Catholic Church is well aware, penetrates behind the scenes, to what must not be discovered if that church is to maintain the dominion in the world to which she lays claim."



http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/RomCathol/19200606p01.html



Rudolf Steiner himself - can, however, without much doubt be said to have ended with doing the same - replacing J. Krishnamurti's name with his own. The big central difference, as I see it, being that the Constitution of the Athroposophical Society was Sectarian biased in its content and directly turned R. Steiner into THE Guru among Guru's. Just read the present day Constitution of the Athroposophical Society:



The Statutes of the Anthoposophical Society



http://www.goetheanum.org/The-Statutes.256.0.html?&L=1



Principles of the Anthroposophical Society 



http://www.goetheanum.org/Principles.255.0.html?&L=1



The End of the Farces:



How to end tha Farce or Farces?



Now I claim that to end this farce or these farces - one will have to realise that in these decades and years of 1878 to 1934 (for instance - or perhaps even the years 1875-2012) the Science of Psychology was in its infancy in the Western countries and in many other illitterate countries as well.



AND, - one will then, after that, have to realise that the Psychological Science - known as the Science on Subtle Mind Control - is central to the problems which has occurred in the past decades of the existence of the Theosophical Society. 



Is this not true and very central even today year 2012....?



Science is not belief.



THE SCIENCE ON SUBTLE MIND CONTROL 



"A short definition of the science on Subtle Mind Control.



The science on Subtle Mind Control is shortly formulated the science on the



aspect of the use of Subtle Mind Control in religious organisations, and other



organisations by a leader or a group of leaders, and its damaging results and



how to avoid them. The science on Subtle Mind Control is about when Subtle Mind



Control is used by a leader or a group of leaders in organisations, especially



here a religious organisations on behalf of members in such an organisation. And



with regard to religious organisations when such a leader or leaders use it



while they in more or less subtle manner install fear, phobia or phobias,



psychological blockages or condition various members of their organisation



through the promotion of a religious doctrine. The science on Subtle Mind



Control is also called Coercive Persuasion, Thought Reform, and other names or



terms. The last two terms can also be used when one like to expand the



definition to cover the science about Brain-Washing and the use of violence, not



only with regard to religious organisations but all kinds of interactions



between human beings and life. This is the central formulation and definition of



the science on Subtle Mind Control, although there are other aspects to it. Here



my focus is on the religious organisations and New Age organisations and groups.



More detailed info follows later in the below." (From Part 2)



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57015 (Part 1)



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57019 (Part 2)



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57020 (Part 3)



____________________



Sometimes I wonder what the MAIN key obstacle to Christianity is?



And is this MAIN key obstacle to Christianity - the MAIN Karmic problem on this planet? If so, the it must be very important!



Is it the authoritarian use of Christian Dogma and what I call "Subtle Mind Control" ?



(See for instance books by Steve Hassan, William Sargant, Kurt Lewin anf even Maragareth Singer and of course others) 



Or is it the fact that people - as in many kinds of religions - simply - perhaps often out of fear and ignorance - do what the poster by Fox Mulder in the X-Files so very much distinguish it self with: "I WANT TO BELIEVE!" (In contrast to I WANT TO KNOW!)



Here we have to poster I Want to believe - A central symbol on the X-Files series and in fact a Symbol on all the UFO-hullabaloo and noice:



http://whisper.net-genie.co.uk/siteimage/scale/0/0/28994.gif



Or is it simply a lack of a philosophical mind - or - just psychological problems?



M. Sufilight



----- Original Message ----- 



From: Ramanujachary nallanchakravarti 



To: Theos-talk 



Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 6:38 AM



Subject: theos-talk Arya Samaj and The TS-6



Arya Samaj -6It is a



misconception that we accept as members Muslims, Jains and others who have not



yet got rid of hatred and contempt. We



never accepted those who do not clearly declare that they will allow all men to



worship according to their convictions and will treat them as brothers just as



they do their co-religionists. It is true that very few Muslims and Christians



have joined the TS, just as few people have joined the AS.



My personal



religious or, as you may say, irreligious views have nothing to do with the TS,



for I never ask anyone to accept my views. As I have said above, our Society is



neither a religious or a communal body.



We have proved



our devotion to you by affiliating the branches of our society to the AS and



made you the Supreme Head of it. The AS has done nothing in return, but you now



openly preach against the TS and say it is a hostile body, which it is not. I



fully believe that I have answered all your objections and express my sincere



desire that friendly relations may subsist between you and us. 



If you so desire



we will, beginning with this year, remove your name from our papers and rules



as the Supreme Head of the TS of the As, and notify to our friends in England



and America that you do not wish to remain such Supreme Head. But I shall not



do that till you tell this to me in writing.



Swamiji made a reply to this



letter in his one dated 17 March 1881 wherein he says:



If you have not



changed your opinion, then you must have concealed it. I know it as a fact that



when you talked to Mulji Thakersay, you did believe in God, but you did in Meerut shows that the fact



is quite the contrary. 



The AS believes



in the Vedas. There is no change in its aims. Brotherhood, which is your chief



ideal, can not be achieved in practice, so long as religious prejudice and



hatred do not completely disappear.



The object of



the diploma was only that the TS wished to become a branch of AS. As that thing is no longer so, what is the



use of talking about it? Moreover, I



simply acknowledged receipt of the diploma but I did not accept your



membership.



I do not wish to



found a new religion. I only preach the eternal Vedic Faith. -- I do not care



for any position except that of a preacher. You mention me sometimes as a



member, sometimes as something else. I do not want any credit or praise. What I



want is itself is a great thing and I hope my work may be successful by God's



grace.



" One of the Hindu



Founders of the Parent Theosophical Society " in his observations on the



contradictions found in the articles published in The Arya, Pandit Dayanand's



organ in April and May 1882, comments thus, after bringing out the



inconsistencies made therein:



This very same



Wisdom-Religion, and none other, they (TS) are professing now, in 1882.



Certainly the friends of the TS are indebted to the Swami for proving by the



publication of the President-Founder's and other letters to him of the year



1878, how identical are the Founders' views at that period with those they are



confessing today. And, if one chose to go back even of the Society's



foundation, the exposition of the Esoteric Doctrine, or "Wisdom-Religion"



of antiquity, which is made in Isis



Unveiled -began prior to that foundation- will be found to differ, in no



substantial respect, from the exposition that Colonel Olcott has made in all



his addresses throughout the annual tour from which he has not yet returned to



head-quarters. When it is PROVED to them



that (a) Swami Dayanad Saraswati's



interpretations of the Vedas contain that very "Wisdom-Religion"; (b)



that from the time of his publication of his first work on the religion of the



Vedas, and his exegesis of its secret meanings, he has never contradicted



himself upon any point; and (c) that from the first pages of his Sathyartha Prakasika - his Yajurveda Bhashya, &c., down to the



last page of the latest issue of his Veda



Bhashya - he teaches an identical



doctrine, then will it be time to expect the Theosophists, to be his disciples



- as upon original misconceptions they were ready to be - and accept their



teachings from no other "Maha Muni." --- During the last year(1881) from April to December, Colonel Olcott was



at Ceylon, and therefore, could not have been at Meerut. It was in September



1880, - more than 20 months ago - that the Pandit Dayanand Saraswati was told



plainly the truth (as he had been told before, and even written to, from America,



when the Society had at last learnt what kind of God was the Iswar preached by him) - to wit; that



the Founders neither then believed, nor ever had believed, in a personal God. the Swami, though himself denying most



emphatically his belief in a personal deity, (the witnesses of the Founders are



two English theosophists who talked with him at Benares),



nevertheless endows his "Iswar" with all the finite attributes of the



Jewish Jehovah. But why should the



learned Swami have waited for over twenty



months before protesting?- - - The Founders - as the whole public have



known for seven years - firmly believe in Karma,



which is but another name for that mysterious law of Absolute Justice which



punishes sin and rewards virtue. But



they refuse belief in a personal God,



whose sole occupation seems to be to keep himself 'happy' and 'joyous'. With



"Karma" as an active principle, and the term 'evolution' instead of



'creation' used, the "Eternal Divine Essence," which Colonel Olcott



speaks of, in his letter of June 5, 1878, when he commits the error of



mistaking Swamiji's "Iswar" - as depicted to him by Swami's followers



- for that "Essence" or PARABRAHM - becomes necessarily an impersonal Deity. The Founders maintain that they do believe in the very Divine PRINCIPLE



taught in the Vedas; in that Principle



which is described at the outset in the Rigveda Samhita - which is



"neither entity nor non-entity," but an ABSTRACT ENTITY, which is no



entity, liable to be described by either words or attributes. And as they entirely fail to recognize this



eternal, All-Pervading Principle in the "Iswar" of the arya Samajists



- they run away from it. The Swami knew their profession of faith since January



1878. Again, I ask, why did he wait to



protest for over three years, and never said anything at that time?---- 



I assert that



the PARABRAHM of the Vedanthins and the "Adi_Buddha" of the northern



Buddhists are identical. Both are Abstract Principles, or non-entities;



Makita and Nirvana being their immutable states; hence the re-absorption of the



human spark of Parabrahm or



Adi-Buddha - called the vulgar "soul" - into the Parent Flame whence



it proceeded - an end so eagerly sought for, under the synonymous terms of



"Moksha" and "Nirvana".- --- I close. The various and many accusations



against the Founders contained in the Arya will be contradicted officially, and upon documentary



evidence, and proven utterly false, in the July number of this journal, should



the President-Founder reach Bombay



in time. Otherwise in the following number."



Literature is for Portrayal of Philosophic Ideas.



Dr N C Ramanujachary(Srivirinchi)



Besant Gardens, The Theosophical Society, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 



Phone: 044/24913584, Mobile: 9444963584



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