From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 1 08:21:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA04236 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:16:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Theosophy World Editor" Cc: "AAA-THEOS-TALK" , "Leon Maurer" Subject: Theos-World RE: Theosophy World #44, February 1, 2000 (Part I) (116) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:10:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf6cbe$235014a0$660e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001311750.JAA28421@clancy.mahat.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 1st 2000 From: W. Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net Re: Correction requested on Dr. Einstein's SECRET DOCTRINE Mr. L. Maurer THEOSOPHY WORLD, Jan 31st 2000 issue. Dear Eldon: In regard to the article by Mr. L. Maurer on Dr. Einstein using a copy of the Secret Doctrine, would you allow me to make a correction? One of the statements that Mr. Maurer makes from his memory of a talk he heard at the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS in New York by Mrs. Sophia Wadia in the 1970s, implies that Mme. Wadia said she was in Adyar when Dr. Einstein's niece brought her uncle's copy of the SECRET DOCTRINE to the TPH or to the Library there. Mr. Maurer writes from memory. Allow me to state that to the best of my knowledge, and to the knowledge of my friends and fellow associates at the United Lodge of Theosophists in Bombay who lived and worked with her until her death [Sunday, April 27 1986] -- (and with whom I have just conferred) states that she never visited Adyar during the period of her life and work in India, a fact well known to me. It is therefore probable that there is some confusion in memory operating in this. If Mme. Wadia never visited Adyar, she would not have seen or handled Dr. Einstein's SECRET DOCTRINE. She would have had no direct knowledge of the incident narrated. Best wishes, W. Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net ======================= REFERENCE: (Please note that the materials presented in THEOSOPHY WORLD are the intellectual property of their respective authors and may not be reposted or otherwise republished without prior permission.) ================================================================= = CONTENTS THEOSOPHY WORLD Issue for January 31st 2000 "How Did Albert Einstein Intuit E=MC^2?" by Leon Maurer "There Are No Neo-Theosophists," by Dallas TenBroeck ...etc.... SNIP ----------------------------------------------------------------- - HOW DID ALBERT EINSTEIN INTUIT E=M^2? by Leon Maurer That's easy. He looked it up in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. On the 20th Anniversary of Einstein's death (1975), physicist Richard Feynman was quoted in TIME MAGAZINE as saying: > I cannot understand how he arrived at the intuition leading to > E=MC^2, considering the level of scientific knowledge at the time > [1905]. This equation states that > ...mass or substance is equivalent to energy and that time and > space are integral parts of the substance-energy continuum. > > -- A. March and I.M Freeman, THE NEW WORLD OF PHYSICS, 1963. A niece of Einstein reported that a copy of THE SECRET DOCTRINE was always on his desk. > Iverson Harris, THE JOURNAL OF SAN DIEGO HISTORY, SAN DIEGO > (California) HISTORICAL SOCIETY, Summer, 1974, 16. In checking > this information it was learned that a niece of Einstein's, in > India during the 1960s, paid a visit to the headquarters of the > Theosophical Society at Adyar. She explained that she knew > nothing of theosophy or the society, but had to see the place > because her uncle always had a copy of Madame Blavatsky's SECRET > DOCTRINE on his desk. The individual to whom the niece spoke was > Eunice Layton, a world renowned theosophical lecturer who > happened to be at the reception desk when she arrived. While in > Ojai, California, in 1982, Sylvia Cranston met Mrs. Eunice > Layton, who confirmed the story. > > -- Cranston, S. L., HPB: THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF > HELENA BLAVATSKY, Preface, Note 11, 557)] Another witness, Jack Brown, reports similarly in an article, "I visited Professor Einstein." (See OJAI VALLEY NEWS, Ojai, California, September 28, 1983." (ibid, Notes, Preface, Note 12., 558.) --- Here's the story as I got it: > Sometime, around the mid 1970s, I was attending a lecture by a > foreign visitor at the United Lodge of Theosophists in New York > City. After the talk, a group of students and I met the speaker, > Mrs. Wadia, the elderly British born widow of a well known > Indian theosophical writer and lecturer. > > She told us that when she was at the Theosophical Publishing > Company in Adyar during the mid 1960s, she met Einstein's niece, > who said she had come to the TPC headquarters to offer their > library the book that was at the bedside of her uncle when he > died. Mrs. Wadia said that she and several others at the Adyar > Lodge gratefully accepted the worn out and dog-eared copy of the > first edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > > I asked Mrs Wadia whether she actually handled and opened the > book. She answered that she had. When I specifically asked if > there were any margin notes, she said that the book was heavily > notated and underlined, and that the margins were covered with > scribbles and other markings that none of them could make heads > nor tails of. (What would we give to get a look at them?) When > someone else asked what happened to the book, she said, it was > still in the library of the Lodge in Adyar. > > Whether it could still be found there today, is anybody's guess.. > (If anyone gets to read its "scribbles" as a result of this lead, > please let me know.) > > SNIP ====================================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 1 18:50:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA07643 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:28:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AAA-DAL" Subject: Theos-World Meditation as a practical tool for Progress Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:20:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf6d13$55981660$620e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com A Number of excellent contributions have recently appeared that involved the subject of meditation. Perhaps the following might prove to be of use. As to Meditation: Some thoughts and ideas ------------------------------ WY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ? As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are around us. Theosophy has a specific definition, as the meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about himself and nature. Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an "Eternal Pilgrim." The mind principle (called Manas ) is that which stores the thoughts of all our lives. The total quantity of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation -- or that upon which our heart is set. We do not often have this as a precise concept, but it can be discovered. It is not outside of us, but an interior attitude. Our mind links our embodied consciousness (mind) to the inner Spiritual Root of our nature. In turn, this places us in a position that we can choose to activate with the Spiritual Principle of the Universe a portion of which ( a "ray," or, "spark") is in us and forms the root-base of our existence and gives us a sense of permanence and of purpose in our existence. With each one of us is associated a measure of Karma -- the fruit of our choices and motives for decisions made in earlier lives. This manifests in our life as character and tendency, as interest and talent or their lack. We also ought to include in this our interest in "meditation." Why do we seek to understand and use it? We tend to place all these things together and call it "our nature." But, we can also see that "our nature" reaches out to other "natures" and we meet with such friends or enemies in this life that we may have established in earlier ones. One cannot understand or practice meditation without this as a consideration that interlinks us all. Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine…" This divine is the Higher Self (Atma/Buddhi) or the divine Spirit Wisdom within each of us. "Occultism requires "physical, mental, moral and spiritual" development to run on parallel lines...the prime factor in the guidance of thought is the Will...The first requisite for it is thorough purity of heart...A cultivation of the feeling of unselfish philanthropy is the path that has to be traversed for that purpose. For it is that alone which will lead to Universal Love, the realization of which constitutes the progress towards deliverance from the chains forged by Maya around the Ego...An Adept is intensely active and thus able to control the elemental forces, " wrote Damodar K. Mavlankar in an article titled: CONTEMPLATION ["THEOSOPHIST Magazine," Vol. 5, p. 112 Feb. 1884.] There are two possible objectives to Meditation. One, is directed at enhancing the Personality in its selfish acquisition of "powers." it is selfish, and it isolates. It concentrates one's effort on personal results -- if persisted in, it will produce some limited results and, at death, it leaves nothing for Devachanic meditation. Anything that "isolates" is selfish and harmful to the permanent Self, which is the true immortal aspirant and devotee. The other is that which is aimed at understanding the Inner HIGHER SELF and the potential that it can make available for practical, universal and righteous action. This kind of meditation leads to compassion and a real effective care for others. It views us as one among many. It also considers that as an "immortal" Mind/Soul we have innately to ourselves a mission that needs the joint cooperative assistance of others to achieve. We can only reach "Perfection," or the "Goal" envisaged, by joint work. The whole of humanity, and all Nature is engaged in this. "A chela's meditation should constitute the "reasoning from the known to the unknown...Occultism does not depend upon one method, but employs both the deductive and the inductive. The student must first learn the general axioms...'To believe without knowing is weakness; to believe because one knows, is power.' " D. K. Mavlankar [idem.]. HOW CAN MEDITATION BE USED AND DEVELOPED ? In considering the development of the meditative faculty we need first to learn and then seek those applications which can be made compassionate generously and practically. Our perception grows deeper and more universal as we are able to widen our effectiveness in helping others to grow themselves. "For others' sake ... " is a good phrase always to keep always in mind. We grow best when we give away. But we have to give away with discrimination and that takes sound preliminary learning. There is the accumulation of facts, then their arrangement in logical relationships, and, finally, the construction in our own minds of the structure of a universal verity to which we will always be able to refer as a basis for understanding what appears to be "new" concepts. PRACTICE AND MEANING OF MEDITATION. As to the meaning and practice of meditation: It should never be conspicuous, or spoken about. And that is because it is the normal extension of one's study of universal principles. Everyone knows about study. Everyone has devoted a long time to actual study and meditation in school life. To study, we place "facts" (or data) in our minds -- as "memory." To meditate one selects from among our memories a group or an area of study. The memories are evoked and then compared with such basic facts as we are already sure of. Therefore, every time that one studied a subject, or wrote an article, or an important letter, or prepared for a talk the meditative aspect of study was invoked. Even when one is not studying, but only doing one's work, and happen to think about some subject that is kept "in the back of the mind," it is evidence of meditation being pursuing as an ongoing process. If one reflects on this then the process was: selection, gathering information, adjusting data so that a cohesive picture grew, identifying areas that were uncertain, and finally looking for analogous or similar conditions. Anything new has to be adjusted so that it is seen to agree with basic information already proved to ones' self. If in the course of meditation one is confronted with some fact that is not congruent with already proven verities, this necessitates a most careful review of all our earlier built conclusions. If we should arbitrarily accept anything without this checking and verifying process we might be increasing an area of error in our thinking. THE UNIVERSE IS COHESIVE AND COOPERATIVE. Theosophy shows how the whole Universe is integrated and has a profound cohesive and logical meaning. Everything fits together, and invites our scrutiny and testing. There are no secrets as such, nor any dogmas or beliefs that we should adopt without understanding. Nothing will ever be expected of us which we cannot understand and would do willingly once we are sure of the intention, methods and results. So our lives are part of the Universal Life, and as we seek to know it better, we delve deeper into our own being, trying to find out what we are and what are the powers of our mind and our own Spiritual Self, that we can use in the "here and now.". VIRTUES: BROTHERHOOD, COMPASSION, ALTRUISM. We should discover that this leads to friendliness, brotherhood, compassion and altruism. And, those should be practiced with discrimination and care for others all the time. The interior "WE" is really the HIGHER SELF. It is the Lower self, the Lower mind and the Personality (which have recognized the existence of the HIGHER SELF), that are now disciplining themselves so that the HIGHER SELF may "come through" with greater ease. CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE. It as the one attribute of the Higher Self. It, alone is able to pierce up and down the 7 planes of being and retains a clear memory of experiences on each plane. Our memories on this plane are fragmentary, until by effort we learn to unify them. The practice of "attention" does this, but, it has to be attentive to grasping the operations of the One Law and impersonal in our application of that to our personal selves. MEDITATION and THE MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) It is the process of digesting, assimilation and thinking about the matter. By this method, one is inviting the discriminating and Wise principle -- Buddhi -- to work actively as the "intuition," and for insights to appear to help -- they come from within, they are the "points of light" that come from the Higher Self working through the lower Self (which has to make itself "porous" to them) and then our lives become illumined by the TRUE, and become friendly to all others, become just and universal. MEDITATION is serious and concentrated thought. It is not a ritual, or a discipline that involves anything of the physical or the psychic. It should not be advertised or made obvious to others, nor should it make life more difficult. It is essentially a search for TRUTH. It is a quiet and unobtrusive mind exercise. It is something that requires that we be fully awake and totally concentrated in the waking state -- no "blanking of the mind", and it is to be entirely self-controlled and self-generated. It is not an exercise that can be practised with others, even when there are silent moments for the reason that it is not passivity, but a time of most active mental effort. We ought to draw no attention to our practice and if we should be interrupted, accept it as a kind of test of our equanimity and let there be no apparent reaction. We are immortal beings and have all the time we need for our future advance -- so long as we are able to include everyone else in our progress. That is the real key to advance - the sharing of ourselves. We should always make time to assist. It does not involve trying to get at the meaning of special words and especially without a truly correct undemanding of what they mean and are (potentially) able to do -- whether they be pronounced correctly or not. That is all physical, external and fruitless. The real power resides in the application of the motive as a carefully controlled and always beneficent creative power -- in those who aspire to assist Nature this is never personal, and is always used (only if necessary) in a harmless, wise and compassionate way with a Mind that is determined to be a servant and assistant to all Nature and to the least of beings which approaches it (us) under Karma. We should consider all those as being, themselves, divine MONADS, and give them the respect and attention (as our brothers) that they claim or, we become aware that they need. Real meditation is a mental determination to live a totally moral and ethical life, all the time to the extent that one is able to do that. It is nothing extraordinary except for this one orientation that has to come from WITHIN. We have to assure ourselves first of all that our learning is not self-directed at all, but that our motive is "to better help and teach others." THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- INTUITION. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and its statements ought to be considered as one of the primary practical sources of inspiration for true Meditation. We ought, by reading a little every day, to become familiar with it and the explanations contained in the footnotes there. As said before, it is most important to remember that we are the HIGHER SELF in our inner-most core (and everyone else is so also). Every being exists because of the essential and ETERNAL MONAD that it is. That Monad is SPIRIT and MATTER conjoined, or ATMA/BUDDHI -- and that is interior to all without any exception. It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM and it is the "Real You." Every human being (and every other type of being is also at root a Monad ) and in the past our MONAD once occupied a position that is comparable to that which it now seems to occupy. We only appear to be separated at present, because we have, each, our own individual path. In the end (at the end of the Manvantara) all those 'Paths' converge. So, from that point of view, it is not useful to seek "guidance," or any "leader" who will prescribe some ritual or formula. Books will not be able to tell anyone what to do, but they can offer advice. It is too easy to be misled. We must remember that the Monad is an immortal. It cannot be "erased" as Individuality at the end of a Manvantara, for the economy of Nature demands that all those INDIVIDUALITIES (experienced MONADS) be employed again, in continuation of their present "advance" at an appropriate place in a new Manvantara which will be the Karmic child of the present one. (see HPB Articles III p. 265, ULT Edition) Everyone has been at this business of self-improvement for aeons -- and it does not begin for the first time in this life. In this life we are all renewing that age-old study that was ours in the past. If we could recover the "memory of past lives" the whole process of advancing would be much easier. If we are now considering the study of Theosophy, it is that which, if and when applied, will make our embodied minds (the Lower Self) clearer and porous, so that the Higher Memories may be accessed. PATANJALI's YOGA-SUTRAS -- A BASIS FOR MEDITATION. PATANJALI's YOGA SUTRAS translated by W. Q. Judge, is most valuable in a study of the nature and procedures of meditation -- especially the first 3 books. It gives a clue as to what true meditation is. It is the attempt of the embodied mind (the Lower Manas) to reach up to and understand the work of the Higher Manas within. And from there to participate in the work of the HIGHER SELF. As a beginning, one might at first study, frame questions, then begin to assemble all that one has learned or has available on a certain subject that is selected. This assembly gives a review of those subjects and ideas -- then one ought to put them all together and see if one can secure a glimpse of the inner reason and meaning for their being there [ to do this one ought to ask the all-important question: WHY ? -- that takes the practitioner to basic principles and enables a clear perception of their inter-relation with others and thus to the CAUSES ] -- and that is MEDITATION. Offered in the hope that this might help. dalval@nwc.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 1 20:30:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA18277 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:04:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <4.3.0.33.0.20000201175646.00b6cea0@mail.ojai.net> X-Sender: Bharata@mail.ojai.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.33 (Beta) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:59:50 -0800 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: Barrett Subject: Re: Theos-World Meditation as a practical tool for Progress In-Reply-To: <000101bf6d13$55981660$620e75ce@nwc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15619324==_.ALT" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com --=====================_15619324==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a high-level discussion-group on "Consciousness" at:=20 http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html, if anyone wishes to check= =20 it out. All are welcome, and may read posts, reply or begin new=20 topics. It is not limited to Theosophy, but is most definitely oriented in= =20 that direction, with many posts citing Theosophical writings, articles,=20 etc. Very interesting group with interesting participants from many=20 different places and walks of life. At 04:20 PM 02/01/2000 -0800, you wrote: >A Number of excellent contributions have recently appeared that >involved the subject of meditation. > >Perhaps the following might prove to be of use. > > >As to Meditation: Some thoughts and ideas > > ------------------------------ > >WY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ? > >As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little >general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are >around us. Theosophy has a specific definition, as the >meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about >himself and nature. > >Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an >"Eternal Pilgrim." The mind principle (called Manas ) is that >which stores the thoughts of all our lives. The total quantity >of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation -- or >that upon which our heart is set. We do not often have this as a >precise concept, but it can be discovered. It is not outside of >us, but an interior attitude. Our mind links our embodied >consciousness (mind) to the inner Spiritual Root of our nature. >In turn, this places us in a position that we can choose to >activate with the Spiritual Principle of the Universe a portion >of which ( a "ray," or, "spark") is in us and forms the root-base >of our existence and gives us a sense of permanence and of >purpose in our existence. > >With each one of us is associated a measure of Karma -- the fruit >of our choices and motives for decisions made in earlier lives. >This manifests in our life as character and tendency, as interest >and talent or their lack. We also ought to include in this our >interest in "meditation." Why do we seek to understand and use >it? We tend to place all these things together and call it "our >nature." But, we can also see that "our nature" reaches out to >other "natures" and we meet with such friends or enemies in this >life that we may have established in earlier ones. One cannot >understand or practice meditation without this as a consideration >that interlinks us all. > >Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): > >Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato >expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the >divine=85" This divine is the Higher Self (Atma/Buddhi) or the >divine Spirit Wisdom within each of us. > >"Occultism requires "physical, mental, moral and spiritual" >development to run on parallel lines...the prime factor in the >guidance of thought is the Will...The first requisite for it is >thorough purity of heart...A cultivation of the feeling of >unselfish philanthropy is the path that has to be traversed for >that purpose. For it is that alone which will lead to Universal >Love, the realization of which constitutes the progress towards >deliverance from the chains forged by Maya around the Ego...An >Adept is intensely active and thus able to control the elemental >forces, " wrote Damodar K. Mavlankar in an article titled: >CONTEMPLATION ["THEOSOPHIST Magazine," Vol. 5, p. 112 Feb. >1884.] > >There are two possible objectives to Meditation. > >One, is directed at enhancing the Personality in its selfish >acquisition of "powers." it is selfish, and it isolates. It >concentrates one's effort on personal results -- if persisted in, >it will produce some limited results and, at death, it leaves >nothing for Devachanic meditation. Anything that "isolates" >is selfish and harmful to the permanent Self, which is the true >immortal aspirant and devotee. > >The other is that which is aimed at understanding the Inner >HIGHER SELF and the potential that it can make available for >practical, universal and righteous action. This kind of >meditation leads to compassion and a real effective care for >others. It views us as one among many. It also considers that >as an "immortal" Mind/Soul we have innately to ourselves a >mission that needs the joint cooperative assistance of others to >achieve. We can only reach "Perfection," or the "Goal" >envisaged, by joint work. The whole of humanity, and all Nature >is engaged in this. "A chela's meditation should constitute the >"reasoning from the known to the unknown...Occultism does not >depend upon one method, but employs both the deductive and the >inductive. The student must first learn the general axioms...'To >believe without knowing is weakness; to believe because one >knows, is power.' " D. K. Mavlankar [idem.]. > > >HOW CAN MEDITATION BE USED AND DEVELOPED ? > >In considering the development of the meditative faculty we need >first to learn and then seek those applications which can be made >compassionate generously and practically. Our perception grows >deeper and more universal as we are able to widen our >effectiveness in helping others to grow themselves. "For others' >sake ... " is a good phrase always to keep always in mind. We >grow best when we give away. But we have to give away with >discrimination and that takes sound preliminary learning. There >is the accumulation of facts, then their arrangement in logical >relationships, and, finally, the construction in our own minds of >the structure of a universal verity to which we will always be >able to refer as a basis for understanding what appears to be >"new" concepts. > > >PRACTICE AND MEANING OF MEDITATION. > >As to the meaning and practice of meditation: It should never be >conspicuous, or spoken about. And that is because it is the >normal extension of one's study of universal principles. >Everyone knows about study. Everyone has devoted a long time to >actual study and meditation in school life. To study, we place >"facts" (or data) in our minds -- as "memory." To meditate one >selects from among our memories a group or an area of study. The >memories are evoked and then compared with such basic facts as we >are already sure of. Therefore, every time that one studied a >subject, or wrote an article, or an important letter, or >prepared for a talk the meditative aspect of study was invoked. > >Even when one is not studying, but only doing one's work, and >happen to think about some subject that is kept "in the back of >the mind," it is evidence of meditation being pursuing as an >ongoing process. If one reflects on this then the process was: >selection, gathering information, adjusting data so that a >cohesive picture grew, identifying areas that were uncertain, and >finally looking for analogous or similar conditions. Anything >new has to be adjusted so that it is seen to agree with basic >information already proved to ones' self. If in the course of >meditation one is confronted with some fact that is not congruent >with already proven verities, this necessitates a most careful >review of all our earlier built conclusions. If we should >arbitrarily accept anything without this checking and verifying >process we might be increasing an area of error in our thinking. > > >THE UNIVERSE IS COHESIVE AND COOPERATIVE. > >Theosophy shows how the whole Universe is integrated and has a >profound cohesive and logical meaning. Everything fits together, >and invites our scrutiny and testing. There are no secrets as >such, nor any dogmas or beliefs that we should adopt without >understanding. Nothing will ever be expected of us which we >cannot understand and would do willingly once we are sure of the >intention, methods and results. > >So our lives are part of the Universal Life, and as we seek to >know it better, we delve deeper into our own being, trying to >find out what we are and what are the powers of our mind and our >own Spiritual Self, that we can use in the "here and now.". > > >VIRTUES: BROTHERHOOD, COMPASSION, ALTRUISM. > >We should discover that this leads to friendliness, brotherhood, >compassion and altruism. And, those should be practiced with >discrimination and care for others all the time. The interior >"WE" is really the HIGHER SELF. It is the Lower self, the Lower >mind and the Personality (which have recognized the existence of >the HIGHER SELF), that are now disciplining themselves so that >the HIGHER SELF may "come through" with greater ease. >CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE. It as the one attribute of the Higher >Self. It, alone is able to pierce up and down the 7 planes of >being and retains a clear memory of experiences on each plane. >Our memories on this plane are fragmentary, until by effort we >learn to unify them. The practice of "attention" does this, but, >it has to be attentive to grasping the operations of the One Law >and impersonal in our application of that to our personal selves. > > >MEDITATION and THE MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) > >It is the process of digesting, assimilation and thinking about >the matter. By this method, one is inviting the discriminating >and Wise principle -- Buddhi -- to work actively as the >"intuition," and for insights to appear to help -- they come from >within, they are the "points of light" that come from the Higher >Self working through the lower Self (which has to make itself >"porous" to them) and then our lives become illumined by the >TRUE, and become friendly to all others, become just and >universal. > >MEDITATION is serious and concentrated thought. It is not a >ritual, or a discipline that involves anything of the physical or >the psychic. It should not be advertised or made obvious to >others, nor should it make life more difficult. It is >essentially a search for TRUTH. It is a quiet and unobtrusive >mind exercise. It is something that requires that we be fully >awake and totally concentrated in the waking state -- no >"blanking of the mind", and it is to be entirely self-controlled >and self-generated. It is not an exercise that can be practised >with others, even when there are silent moments for the reason >that it is not passivity, but a time of most active mental >effort. > >We ought to draw no attention to our practice and if we should be >interrupted, accept it as a kind of test of our equanimity and >let there be no apparent reaction. We are immortal beings and >have all the time we need for our future advance -- so long as we >are able to include everyone else in our progress. That is the >real key to advance - the sharing of ourselves. We should always >make time to assist. > >It does not involve trying to get at the meaning of special words >and especially without a truly correct undemanding of what they >mean and are (potentially) able to do -- whether they be >pronounced correctly or not. That is all physical, external and >fruitless. The real power resides in the application of the >motive as a carefully controlled and always beneficent creative >power -- in those who aspire to assist Nature this is never >personal, and is always used (only if necessary) in a harmless, >wise and compassionate way with a Mind that is determined to be a >servant and assistant to all Nature and to the least of beings >which approaches it (us) under Karma. We should consider all >those as being, themselves, divine MONADS, and give them the >respect and attention (as our brothers) that they claim or, we >become aware that they need. > >Real meditation is a mental determination to live a totally moral >and ethical life, all the time to the extent that one is able to >do that. It is nothing extraordinary except for this one >orientation that has to come from WITHIN. We have to assure >ourselves first of all that our learning is not self-directed at >all, but that our motive is "to better help and teach others." > > >THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- INTUITION. > >THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and its statements ought to be >considered as one of the primary practical sources of inspiration >for true Meditation. We ought, by reading a little every day, to >become familiar with it and the explanations contained in the >footnotes there. > >As said before, it is most important to remember that we are the >HIGHER SELF in our inner-most core (and everyone else is so >also). Every being exists because of the essential and ETERNAL >MONAD that it is. That Monad is SPIRIT and MATTER conjoined, or >ATMA/BUDDHI -- and that is interior to all without any exception. >It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM and it is the "Real You." > >Every human being (and every other type of being is also at root >a Monad ) and in the past our MONAD once occupied a position >that is comparable to that which it now seems to occupy. We only >appear to be separated at present, because we have, each, our own >individual path. In the end (at the end of the Manvantara) all >those 'Paths' converge. So, from that point of view, it is not >useful to seek "guidance," or any "leader" who will prescribe >some ritual or formula. Books will not be able to tell anyone >what to do, but they can offer advice. It is too easy to be >misled. > >We must remember that the Monad is an immortal. It cannot be >"erased" as Individuality at the end of a Manvantara, for the >economy of Nature demands that all those INDIVIDUALITIES >(experienced MONADS) be employed again, in continuation of their >present "advance" at an appropriate place in a new Manvantara >which will be the Karmic child of the present one. (see HPB >Articles >III p. 265, ULT Edition) > >Everyone has been at this business of self-improvement for >aeons -- and it does not begin for the first time in this life. >In this life we are all renewing that age-old study that was ours >in the past. If we could recover the "memory of past lives" the >whole process of advancing would be much easier. If we are now >considering the study of Theosophy, it is that which, if and when >applied, will make our embodied minds (the Lower Self) clearer >and porous, so that the Higher Memories may be accessed. > > >PATANJALI's YOGA-SUTRAS -- A BASIS FOR MEDITATION. > >PATANJALI's YOGA SUTRAS translated by W. Q. Judge, is most >valuable in a study of the nature and procedures of meditation -- >especially the first 3 books. It gives a clue as to what true >meditation is. It is the attempt of the embodied mind (the Lower >Manas) to reach up to and understand the work of the Higher Manas >within. And from there to participate in the work of the HIGHER >SELF. > >As a beginning, one might at first study, frame questions, then >begin to assemble all that one has learned or has available on a >certain subject that is selected. This assembly gives a review >of those subjects and ideas -- then one ought to put them all >together and see if one can secure a glimpse of the inner reason >and meaning for their being there [ to do this one ought to ask >the all-important question: WHY ? -- that takes the >practitioner to basic principles and enables a clear perception >of their inter-relation with others and thus to the CAUSES ] -- >and that is MEDITATION. > > >Offered in the hope that this might help. > >dalval@nwc.net > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. --=====================_15619324==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a high-level discussion-group on "Consciousness" at: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html, if anyone wishes to check it out.  All are welcome, and may read posts, reply or begin new topics.  It is not limited to Theosophy, but is most definitely oriented in that direction, with many posts citing Theosophical writings, articles, etc.  Very interesting group with interesting participants from many different places and walks of life.



At 04:20 PM 02/01/2000 -0800, you wrote:
A Number of excellent contributions have recently appeared that
involved the subject of meditation.

Perhaps the following might prove to be of use.


As to Meditation:  Some thoughts and ideas

        -------------= -----------------

WY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ?

As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little
general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are
around us.  Theosophy has a specific definition, as the
meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about
himself and nature.

Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an
"Eternal Pilgrim."  The mind principle (called Manas ) is that
which stores the thoughts of all our lives.  The total=20 quantity
of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation --  or
that upon which our heart is set.  We do not often have this as a
precise concept, but it can be discovered.  It is not outside of
us, but an interior attitude.  Our mind links our embodied
consciousness (mind) to the inner Spiritual Root of our nature.
In turn, this places us in a position that we can choose to
activate with the Spiritual Principle of the Universe a portion
of which ( a "ray," or, "spark") is in us and forms the root-base
of our existence and gives us a sense of permanence and of
purpose in our existence.

With each one of us is associated a measure of Karma -- the fruit
of our choices and motives for decisions made in earlier lives.
This manifests in our life as character and tendency, as interest
and talent or their lack.  We also ought to include in this=20 our
interest in "meditation."  Why do we seek to understand and use
it?  We tend to place all these things together and call it "our
nature."  But, we can also see that "our nature" reaches out to
other "natures" and we meet with such friends or enemies in this
life that we may have established in earlier ones.  One cannot
understand or practice meditation without this as a consideration
that interlinks us all.

Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10):

Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato
expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the
divine=85"        This divine is the Higher Self (Atma/Buddhi) or the
divine Spirit Wisdom within each of us.

"Occultism requires "physical, mental, moral and spiritual"
development to run on parallel lines...the prime factor in the
guidance of thought is the Will...The first requisite for it is
thorough purity of heart...A cultivation of the feeling of
unselfish philanthropy is the path that has to be traversed for
that purpose.  For it is that alone which will lead to Universal
Love, the realization of which constitutes the progress towards
deliverance from the chains forged by Maya around the Ego...An
Adept is intensely active and thus able to control the elemental
forces, " wrote Damodar K. Mavlankar in an article titled:
CONTEMPLATION  ["THEOSOPHIST Magazine," Vol. 5, p.  112  Feb.
1884.]

There are two possible objectives to Meditation.

One, is directed at enhancing the Personality in its selfish
acquisition of "powers."  it is selfish, and it isolates.  It
concentrates one's effort on personal results -- if persisted in,
it will produce some limited results and, at death, it leaves
nothing for Devachanic meditation.  Anything that "isolates"
is selfish and harmful to the permanent Self, which is the true
immortal aspirant and devotee.

The other is that which is aimed at understanding the Inner
HIGHER SELF and the potential that it can make available for
practical, universal and righteous action.  This kind of
meditation leads to compassion and a real effective care for
others.  It views us as one among many.  It also considers that
as an "immortal" Mind/Soul we have innately to ourselves=20 a
mission that needs the joint cooperative assistance of others to
achieve.  We can only reach "Perfection," or the "Goal"
envisaged, by joint work.  The whole of humanity, and all Nature
is engaged in this.  "A chela's meditation should constitute the
"reasoning from the known to the unknown...Occultism does not
depend upon one method, but employs both the deductive and the
inductive.  The student must first learn the general axioms...'To
believe without knowing is weakness; to believe because one
knows, is power.' "   D. K. Mavlankar [idem.].


HOW CAN MEDITATION BE USED AND DEVELOPED ?

In considering the development of the meditative faculty we need
first to learn and then seek those applications which can be made
compassionate generously and practically.  Our perception=20 grows
deeper and more universal as we are able to widen our
effectiveness in helping others to grow themselves.  "For others'
sake  ... " is a good phrase always to keep always in mind.  We
grow best when we give away.  But we have to give away with
discrimination and that takes sound preliminary learning.  There
is the accumulation of facts, then their arrangement in logical
relationships, and, finally, the construction in our own minds of
the structure of a universal verity to which we will always be
able to refer as a basis for understanding what appears to be
"new" concepts.


PRACTICE AND MEANING OF MEDITATION.

As to the meaning and practice of meditation:  It should never be
conspicuous, or spoken about.  And that is because it is the
normal extension of one's study of universal principles.
Everyone knows about study.  Everyone has devoted a long time to
actual study and meditation in school life. To study, we place
"facts" (or data) in our minds -- as "memory."  To meditate one
selects from among our memories a group or an area of study.  The
memories are evoked and then compared with such basic facts as we
are already sure of.  Therefore, every time that one studied a
subject, or wrote an article, or an important letter,  or
prepared for a talk the meditative aspect of study was invoked.

Even when one is not studying,  but only doing one's work, and
happen to think about some subject that is kept "in the back=20 of
the mind," it is evidence of meditation being pursuing as an
ongoing process.  If one reflects on this then the process=20 was:
selection, gathering information, adjusting data so that a
cohesive picture grew, identifying areas that were uncertain, and
finally looking for analogous or similar conditions.  Anything
new has to be adjusted so that it is seen to agree with basic
information already proved to ones' self.  If in the course of
meditation one is confronted with some fact that is not congruent
with already proven verities, this necessitates a most careful
review of all our earlier built conclusions.  If we should
arbitrarily accept anything without this checking and verifying
process we might be increasing an area of error in our thinking.


THE UNIVERSE IS COHESIVE AND COOPERATIVE.

Theosophy shows how the whole Universe is integrated and has a
profound cohesive and logical meaning.  Everything fits together,
and invites our scrutiny and testing.  There are no secrets as
such, nor any dogmas or beliefs that we should adopt without
understanding.  Nothing will ever be expected of us which we
cannot understand and would do willingly once we are sure of the
intention, methods and results.

So our lives are part of the Universal Life, and as we seek to
know it better, we delve deeper into our own being, trying to
find out what we are and what are the powers of our mind and our
own Spiritual Self, that we can use in the "here and now.".


VIRTUES:  BROTHERHOOD, COMPASSION, ALTRUISM.

We should discover that this leads to friendliness, brotherhood,
compassion and altruism.  And, those should be practiced with
discrimination and care for others all the time.   The interior
"WE" is really the HIGHER SELF.  It is the Lower self, the Lower
mind and the Personality (which have recognized the existence of
the HIGHER SELF), that are now disciplining themselves so that
the HIGHER SELF may "come through" with greater ease.
CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE.  It as the one attribute of the Higher
Self.  It, alone is able to pierce up and down the 7 planes of
being and retains a clear memory of experiences on each plane.
Our memories on this plane are fragmentary, until by effort we
learn to unify them.  The practice of "attention" does this, but,
it has to be attentive to grasping the operations of the One Law
and impersonal in our application of that to our personal selves.


MEDITATION and THE MONAD  (Atma-Buddhi-Manas)

It is the process of digesting, assimilation and thinking about
the matter.  By this method, one is inviting the=20 discriminating
and Wise principle -- Buddhi --  to work actively as the
"intuition," and for insights to appear to help -- they come from
within, they are the "points of light" that come from the Higher
Self working through the lower Self (which has to make itself
"porous" to them) and then our lives become illumined by the
TRUE, and become friendly to all others, become just and
universal.

MEDITATION is serious and concentrated thought.  It is not a
ritual, or a discipline that involves anything of the physical or
the psychic.  It should not be advertised or made obvious to
others, nor should it make life more difficult.  It is
essentially a search for TRUTH.  It is a quiet and unobtrusive
mind exercise.  It is something that requires that we be fully
awake and totally concentrated in the waking state -- no
"blanking of the mind", and it is to be entirely self-controlled
and self-generated.  It is not an exercise that can be practised
with others, even when there are silent moments for the reason
that it is not passivity, but a time of most active mental
effort.

We ought to draw no attention to our practice and if we should be
interrupted, accept it as a kind of test of our equanimity and
let there be no apparent reaction.  We are immortal beings  and
have all the time we need for our future advance -- so long as we
are able to include everyone else in our progress.  That is=20 the
real key to advance - the sharing of ourselves.  We should always
make time to assist.

It does not involve trying to get at the meaning of special words
and especially without a truly correct undemanding of what they
mean and are (potentially) able to do -- whether they be
pronounced correctly or not.  That is all physical, external and
fruitless.  The real power resides in the application of the
motive as a carefully controlled and always beneficent creative
power -- in those who aspire to assist Nature this is never
personal, and is always used (only if necessary) in a harmless,
wise and compassionate way with a Mind that is determined to be a
servant and assistant to all Nature and to the least of beings
which approaches it (us) under Karma.  We should consider all
those as being, themselves, divine MONADS, and give them the
respect and attention (as our brothers) that they claim or, we
become aware that they need.

Real meditation is a mental determination to live a totally moral
and ethical life, all the time to the extent that one is able to
do that.  It is nothing extraordinary except for this one
orientation that has to come from WITHIN.  We have to assure
ourselves first of all that our learning is not self-directed at
all, but that our motive is "to better help and teach others."


THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE --  INTUITION.

THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and its statements ought to be
considered as one of the primary practical sources of inspiration
for true Meditation.  We ought, by reading a little every day, to
become familiar with it and the explanations contained in the
footnotes there.

As said before, it is most important to remember that we are the
HIGHER SELF in our inner-most core (and everyone else is so
also).  Every being exists because of the essential and=20 ETERNAL
MONAD that it is.  That Monad is SPIRIT and MATTER conjoined, or
ATMA/BUDDHI -- and that is interior to all without any exception.
It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM and it is the "Real You."

Every human being (and every other type of being is also at root
a Monad )  and in the past our MONAD once occupied a position
that is comparable to that which it now seems to occupy.  We only
appear to be separated at present, because we have, each, our own
individual path.  In the end (at the end of the Manvantara)=20 all
those 'Paths' converge. So, from that point of view, it is not
useful to seek "guidance," or any "leader" who will prescribe
some ritual or formula.  Books will not be able to tell anyone
what to do, but they can offer advice.  It is too easy to be
misled.

We must remember that the Monad is an immortal.  It cannot be
"erased" as Individuality at the end of a Manvantara, for the
economy of Nature demands that all those INDIVIDUALITIES
(experienced MONADS) be employed again, in continuation of their
present "advance" at an appropriate place in a new Manvantara
which will be the Karmic child of the present one.  (see HPB
Articles
III p. 265,  ULT Edition)

Everyone has been at this business of self-improvement for
aeons -- and it does not begin for the first time in this life.
In this life we are all renewing that age-old study that was ours
in the past.  If we could recover the "memory of past lives" the
whole process of advancing would be much easier.  If we are=20 now
considering the study of Theosophy, it is that which, if and when
applied, will make our embodied minds (the Lower Self) clearer
and porous, so that the Higher Memories may be accessed.


PATANJALI's  YOGA-SUTRAS  -- A BASIS FOR MEDITATION.

PATANJALI's  YOGA SUTRAS translated by W. Q. Judge, is most
valuable in a study of the nature and procedures of meditation --
especially the first 3 books.  It gives a clue as to what true
meditation is.  It is the attempt of the embodied mind (the Lower
Manas) to reach up to and understand the work of the Higher Manas
within.  And from there to participate in the work of the HIGHER
SELF.

As a beginning, one might at first study, frame questions, then
begin to assemble all that one has learned or has available on a
certain subject that is selected.  This assembly gives a=20 review
of those subjects and ideas -- then one ought to put them all
together and see if one can secure a glimpse of the inner reason
and meaning for their being there [ to do this one ought to ask
the all-important question:  WHY ?  -- that takes the
practitioner to basic principles and enables a clear perception
of their inter-relation with others and thus to the CAUSES ] --
and that is MEDITATION.


Offered in the hope that this might help.

dalval@nwc.net


-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com

Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting=20 of
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.

--=====================_15619324==_.ALT-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 2 01:49:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA18324 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <98.1303fea.25c92fc9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:59:21 EST Subject: Theos-World Re: RE: Theosophy World #44, February 1, 2000 (Part I) (116) To: dalval@nwc.net, editor@theosophy.com CC: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Eldon, With respect to my published notes on Albert Einstein and the Secret Doctrine... Dallas TenBroek may be justified, if his information is correct, in assuming that my memory of the conversation with Mrs. Wadia about 25 years ago may be a bit twisted. At the time that I met Mrs. Wadia, and participated in the conversation about Albert Einstein and the SD, she was with several other women from India who had accompanied her to the ULT meeting for her lecture. Also, at the post lecture group surrounding Mrs. Wadia and her friends when we heard the story about Einstein's niece, were several other lodge associates and visitors. Accordingly, having conversed with several others in the group, as well as Mrs. Wadia, I may have mistakenly attributed to Mrs. Wadia the story we heard then about the niece of Dr. Einstein. I seem to remember Mrs. Wadia telling the anecdote, or at least introducing it, but perhaps it was completed by one of the other women (whom I later may have assumed was Mrs. Wadia speaking from first hand knowledge). Nevertheless, the details of conversation with respect to the questions I asked and the answers received is quite clear in my memory. Admittedly, in retrospect, not paying much attention to individual persons speaking at the time (since several of the women were wearing similar Indian garb:-) and being so caught up in the information about the conditions of the book, I could very well have confused Mrs. Wadia with some other lady in her group who may have been the eyewitness who answered my questions -- since all the visiting ladies seemed to have known about the story before we heard it at the NYC Lodge. Also, since Sylvia Cranston (Anita Atkins) was also lecturt account for her footnote in the HPB biography other than that it referred to a confirmation of the story that she obtained several years later in California directly from Mrs. Layton. Also, since I worked, along with Carey Williams (Caren Elin -- who was also at the NY Lodge at the time) on some of the scientific correlation in the HPB Biography, I had always assumed that the meeting with Mrs. Wadia and her associates was the first time any of us heard the Einstein story in America. Could this be the way all historical information gets a bit garbled in transmission.:-) Nevertheless, I apologize, and take full responsibility for any misapprehension this slight twist of memory, if it was so, may have caused your readers. Sincerely, Leon Maurer ------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 2/1/0 2:14:01 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: Feb 1st 2000 From: W. Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net Re: Correction requested on Dr. Einstein's SECRET DOCTRINE Mr. L. Maurer THEOSOPHY WORLD, Jan 31st 2000 issue. Dear Eldon: In regard to the article by Mr. L. Maurer on Dr. Einstein using a copy of the Secret Doctrine, would you allow me to make a correction? One of the statements that Mr. Maurer makes from his memory of a talk he heard at the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS in New York by Mrs. Sophia Wadia in the 1970s, implies that Mme. Wadia said she was in Adyar when Dr. Einstein's niece brought her uncle's copy of the SECRET DOCTRINE to the TPH or to the Library there. Mr. Maurer writes from memory. Allow me to state that to the best of my knowledge, and to the knowledge of my friends and fellow associates at the United Lodge of Theosophists in Bombay who lived and worked with her until her death [Sunday, April 27 1986] -- (and with whom I have just conferred) states that she never visited Adyar during the period of her life and work in India, a fact well known to me. It is therefore probable that there is some confusion in memory operating in this. If Mme. Wadia never visited Adyar, she would not have seen or handled Dr. Einstein's SECRET DOCTRINE. She would have had no direct knowledge of the incident narrated. Best wishes, W. Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net ======================= REFERENCE: (Please note that the materials presented in THEOSOPHY WORLD are the intellectual property of their respective authors and may not be reposted or otherwise republished without prior permission.) ================================================================= = CONTENTS THEOSOPHY WORLD Issue for January 31st 2000 "How Did Albert Einstein Intuit E=MC^2?" by Leon Maurer "There Are No Neo-Theosophists," by Dallas TenBroeck ...etc.... SNIP ----------------------------------------------------------------- - HOW DID ALBERT EINSTEIN INTUIT E=M^2? by Leon Maurer That's easy. He looked it up in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. On the 20th Anniversary of Einstein's death (1975), physicist Richard Feynman was quoted in TIME MAGAZINE as saying: > I cannot understand how he arrived at the intuition leading to > E=MC^2, considering the level of scientific knowledge at the > time [1905]. This equation states that > ...mass or substance is equivalent to energy and that time and > space are integral parts of the substance-energy continuum. > > -- A. March and I.M Freeman, THE NEW WORLD OF PHYSICS, 1963. A niece of Einstein reported that a copy of THE SECRET DOCTRINE was always on his desk. > Iverson Harris, THE JOURNAL OF SAN DIEGO HISTORY, SAN DIEGO > (California) HISTORICAL SOCIETY, Summer, 1974, 16. In checking > this information it was learned that a niece of Einstein's, in > India during the 1960s, paid a visit to the headquarters of the > Theosophical Society at Adyar. She explained that she knew > nothing of theosophy or the society, but had to see the place > because her uncle always had a copy of Madame Blavatsky's SECRET > DOCTRINE on his desk. The individual to whom the niece spoke was > Eunice Layton, a world renowned theosophical lecturer who > happened to be at the reception desk when she arrived. While in > Ojai, California, in 1982, Sylvia Cranston met Mrs. Eunice > Layton, who confirmed the story. > -- Cranston, S. L., HPB: THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE > OF HELENA BLAVATSKY, Preface, Note 11, 557)] Another witness, Jack Brown, reports similarly in an article, "I visited Professor Einstein." (See OJAI VALLEY NEWS, Ojai, California, September 28, 1983." (ibid, Notes, Preface, Note 12., 558.) --- Here's the story as I got it: > Sometime, around the mid 1970s, I was attending a lecture by a > foreign visitor at the United Lodge of Theosophists in New York > City. After the talk, a group of students and I met the speaker, > Mrs. Wadia, the elderly British born widow of a well known > Indian theosophical writer and lecturer. > > She told us that when she was at the Theosophical Publishing > Company in Adyar during the mid 1960s, she met Einstein's niece, > who said she had come to the TPC headquarters to offer their > library the book that was at the bedside of her uncle when he > died. Mrs. Wadia said that she and several others at the Adyar > Lodge gratefully accepted the worn out and dog-eared copy of > the first edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > > I asked Mrs Wadia whether she actually handled and opened the > book. She answered that she had. When I specifically asked if > there were any margin notes, she said that the book was heavily > notated and underlined, and that the margins were covered with > scribbles and other markings that none of them could make heads > nor tails of. (What would we give to get a look at them?) When > someone else asked what happened to the book, she said, it was > still in the library of the Lodge in Adyar. > > Whether it could still be found there today, is anybody's guess.. > (If anyone gets to read its "scribbles" as a result of this lead, > please let me know.) -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 2 08:28:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA23812 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:13:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AAA-DAL" Subject: Theos-World What is CREATION ? Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:07:33 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf6d86$d9b31260$400e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com CAUSE PROGRAM and PLAN AGENTS OF A PLAN RE-FORMATION not CREATION CANNOT BE "OUT OF NOTHING" SPIRIT and MATTER PURPOSE of EVOLUTION -- WHAT EVOLVES ? PROCESS of EVOLUTION CYCLES of TIME and PERIODS OF ACTIVITY and REST PERFECTION WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO DO NOT SUCCEED ? dalval@nwc.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 3 08:22:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA19857 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:14:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World Re: Meditation == and PRAYER Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:08:33 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf6e50$2a5adc60$140e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 3rd Let us look into what Theosophy has to say on this subject of "Prayer." If we consider the meaning and use of the word "prayer" we find that this implies a use of the desire faculty, the mind, and the will -- so as to bring it into effect. The Inner Man employs these unconsciously all the time that he is alive and awake. In fact one might say that every moment of our lives we are "creators." The progress of our life and its direction is constantly regulated by our choices and decisions. The direction of any one of these is called the "motive." Our "motives" can be of two kinds: 1. Selfish -- for our personal benefit. [This can result in harm and disturbance that will affect others to their detriment, as ell have a repercussion (Karma) on ourselves.] Or, 2. Unselfish. [A desire to live and act so that we will harmonize with the patterns of life as revealed by the Karma of our living and the nature of the circumstances that we are in at any given moment of time. Added to this our goodwill to all other beings in this vast cooperative we call Nature and which is guided intelligently by the laws of Brotherhood.] >From this point of view all "prayers," are hopes and decisions for actions and the effects of adopting these create the kind of Karma which will follow us into the future. We are the "creators" of our own future. One may say this is highly philosophical, even though this is reviewed in a flash each time that we make a desire. In fact we can call any desire, and any consequent thought and action, a "manifested prayer." The results that follow depend on the power and determination of our applied "WILL." This fact can be ascertained as follows: If one desires something, one visualizes it as being achieved. A goal is set. Then follows the assembly of that information needed to create a plan of procedure. Then the plan is made and brought into actuality by application of certain disciplines of mind and of bodily actions. If one desires to observe this in terms of time, then we will see that our memory of the past is brought into selected focus now in the present, so that our "future" may be created. Past, present and future are thus merged by us, for the moment in the decision-making process. We do this all the time, usually automatically and unconsciously The devoted student of Theosophy before doing this will stop and, considering the first most important object of living, ask : "Why is this desire to be accomplished? Who will benefit? Is there any possibility of hurting others? He does this because he is sure that Karma operates everywhere, and that anything which he may do will affect the environment, himself and ultimately others in Nature. "How," he asks himself, "can I perform this action HARMLESSLY ? Is it LAWFUL to do? Will I incur future ill effects. In other words, Is it NECESSARY ?" In Theosophical literature there is to be found a good deal of key information about "prayer." As outlined above, the question of our 'motive' is sketched. Next, the consideration of the average person's attitude towards "prayer" is reviewed. Here are some key ideas, and as usual, starting with some fundamental concepts on devotion and worship : "...divine man dwelt in his animal--though externally human--form...When moved by the law of Evolution, the Lords of Wisdom infused into him the spark of consciousness, the first feeling it awoke to life and activity was a sense of solidarity, of one-ness with his spiritual creators...DEVOTION arose out of that feeling, and became the first and foremost motor in his nature; for it is the only one which is natural to our heart, which is innate in us, and which we find alike in human babe and the young of the animal. This feeling of irrepressible, instinctive aspiration in primitive man is beautiful, and one may say intuitionally, described by Carlyle. "The great antique heart," he exclaims, "how like a child's in its simplicity, like a man's in its extreme solemnity and depth ! heaven lies over him wheresoever he goes or stands on the earth; making all the earth a mystic temple to him, the earth's business all a kind of worship...Wonder, miracle encompasses the man; he lives in an element of miracle...A great law of duty, high as these two infinitudes (heaven and hell), dwarfing all else, annihilating all else--it was a reality, and it is one; the garment only of it is dead; the essence of it lives through all times and all eternity." SECRET DOCTRINE I 210-11. "1. The Secret Doctrine teaches no Atheism... 2. It admits a Logos or a collective "Creator" of the Universe; a 'Demi-urgos'--in the sense implied when one speaks of an "Architect" as the "Creator" of an edifice, whereas that Architect has never touched one stone of it, but while furnishing the plan, left all the manual labour to the masons; in our case the plan was furnished by the Ideation of the Universe, and the constructive labour was left to the Hosts of intelligent Powers and Forces. But that Demiurgos is no 'personal' deity--an imperfect extra-cosmic god--but only the aggregate of the Dhyan Chohans and other forces. 3. [these 'forces'] ...are dual in character ...(a) the irrational 'brute energy' inherent in nature, and (b) the intelligent soul or cosmic consciousness which directs and guides that energy and which is the 'Dhyan-Chohanic thought reflecting the Ideation of the Universal Mind.' This results in a perpetual series of physical manifestations and 'moral effects' on Earth during manvantaric periods, the whole being subservient to Karma...therefore, neither the collective Host (Demiurgos), nor any of the working powers individually, are proper subjects for divine honours or worship. All are entitled to the grateful reverence of Humanity, however, and man ought to be ever striving to help the divine evolution of 'Ideas,' by becoming to the best of his ability a 'co-worker with nature' in the cyclic task. The ever unknowable and incognizable 'Karana' alone, the 'Causeless' Cause of all causes, should have its shrine and altar on the holy and ever untrodden ground of our heart--invisible, intangible, unmentioned, save through the still small voice of our spiritual consciousness. Those who worship before it, ought to do so in the silence and the sanctified solitude of their Souls; making their spirit the sole mediator between them and the 'Universal Spirit,' their good actions the only priests, and their sinful intentions the only visible and objective sanctified victims to the 'PRESENCE." SECRET DOCTRINE I p. 279-280. "It is the profane of the past ages who have degraded the pure idea of cosmic creation...it is the esoteric teachings and the initiates of the Future, whose mission it is, and will be, to redeem and ennoble once more the primitive conception so sadly profaned by its crude and gross application to exoteric dogmas and personations by theological and ecclesiastical religionists. The silent worship of abstract or 'noumenal' Nature, the only divine manifestation, is the one ennobling religion of Humanity." SECRET DOCTRINE I 281 footnote. "When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are...but enter into 'thine inner chamber and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret," [ Mathew vi]. Our Father is 'within us' "in Secret," our 7th principle [Atma], in the "inner chamber" of our soul perception. "The Kingdom of Heaven" and of god "is within us" says Jesus, not 'outside.' SECRET DOCTRINE I 280 fn. "Real ecstasy was defined by Plotinus as "the liberation of the mind from its finite consciousness, becoming one and identified with the infinite. This is the highest condition...but not one of permanent duration, and it is reached only by the very few...Meditation is silent and 'unuttered' prayer, or, as Plato expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine; not to ask any particular good (as in the common meaning of prayer), but for good itself--for the universal Supreme Good" of which we are a part on earth, and out of the essence of which we have all emerged." KEY p. 10 "The Unknowable is capable of relations only in its parts to each other, but it is non-existent as regards any finite relations. The visible universe depends for its existence and phenomena on its mutually acting forms and their laws, not on prayer or prayers. [Q.: Do you not believe at all in the efficacy of prayer?] ... Not in prayer taught in so many words and repeated externally, if by prayer you mean the outward petition to an unknown God as the addressee... [Q.: Is there any other kind of prayer?] ... Most decidedly; we call it WILL-PRAYER, and it is rather an internal command than a petition. [Q.: To whom, then, do you pray...?] ... To "our Father in heaven"-- in its esoteric meaning...An Occultist or a theosophist addresses his prayer to his 'Father which is in secret' (read and try to understand Matthew VI v 6), not to an extra-cosmic and therefore finite God, and that "Father" is in man himself. [Q.: Then you make of man a God?] ... Please say "God" and not "a God." In our sense the inner man is the only god we can have cognizance of...We call our "Father in heaven" the deific essence of which we are cognizant within us, in our heart and spiritual consciousness....Yet, let no man anthropomorphise that essence in us...for all are one." KEY p. 66-7. These few references will give the positive aspect of prayer viewed Theosophically. any kind of prayer that has for object a special benefit for the one who is praying is held to be a kind of Black-magic" or sorcery practices. [ see SD I 416 467-9 ] Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ========================= -----Original Message----- From: Cuttersail@aol.com [mailto:Cuttersail@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 1:18 AM Subject: Re: Meditation as a practical tool for Progress In a message dated 2/1/2000 10:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, dalval@nwc.net writes: > Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): > > Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato > expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the > divine…" What is prayer in the light of Theosophy? How is it expressed and to whom or what? I think I am still, because of upbringing, thinking that I have to pray to "someone deignated" for a particular favor or need. Thank you. Klaus -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 3 14:59:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA11811 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:50:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <4.3.0.33.0.20000203124316.00b6c790@mail.ojai.net> X-Sender: Bharata@mail.ojai.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.33 (Beta) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:45:42 -0800 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: Barrett Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Meditation == and PRAYER In-Reply-To: <000801bf6e50$2a5adc60$140e75ce@nwc.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_628185==_.ALT" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com --=====================_628185==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is an interesting discussion-group on "Consciousness"=20 at: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html, if anyone cares to check it out or, better, to participate. All are very=20 welcome. It is not strictly-speaking Theosophical, but leans heavily in=20 that direction, with references to HPB and others. It is quite=20 non-sectarian in its approach, and has some very interesting members= posting. At 06:08 AM 02/03/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Feb 3rd > >Let us look into what Theosophy has to say on this subject of >"Prayer." > >If we consider the meaning and use of the word "prayer" we find >that this implies a use of the desire faculty, the mind, and the >will -- so as to bring it into effect. The Inner Man employs >these unconsciously all the time that he is alive and awake. In >fact one might say that every moment of our lives we are >"creators." The progress of our life and its direction is >constantly regulated by our choices and decisions. The direction >of any one of these is called the "motive." > >Our "motives" can be of two kinds: 1. Selfish -- for our >personal benefit. [This can result in harm and disturbance that >will affect others to their detriment, as ell have a repercussion >(Karma) on ourselves.] Or, 2. Unselfish. [A desire to live and >act so that we will harmonize with the patterns of life as >revealed by the Karma of our living and the nature of the >circumstances that we are in at any given moment of time. Added >to this our goodwill to all other beings in this vast cooperative >we call Nature and which is guided intelligently by the laws of >Brotherhood.] > > From this point of view all "prayers," are hopes and decisions >for actions and the effects of adopting these create the kind of >Karma which will follow us into the future. We are the >"creators" of our own future. > >One may say this is highly philosophical, even though this is >reviewed in a flash each time that we make a desire. In fact we >can call any desire, and any consequent thought and action, a >"manifested prayer." The results that follow depend on the power >and determination of our applied "WILL." > >This fact can be ascertained as follows: If one desires >something, one visualizes it as being achieved. A goal is set. >Then follows the assembly of that information needed to create a >plan of procedure. Then the plan is made and brought into >actuality by application of certain disciplines of mind and of >bodily actions. If one desires to observe this in terms of time, >then we will see that our memory of the past is brought into >selected focus now in the present, so that our "future" may be >created. Past, present and future are thus merged by us, for the >moment in the decision-making process. We do this all the time, >usually automatically and unconsciously > >The devoted student of Theosophy before doing this will stop and, >considering the first most important object of living, ask : >"Why is this desire to be accomplished? Who will benefit? Is >there any possibility of hurting others? > >He does this because he is sure that Karma operates everywhere, >and that anything which he may do will affect the environment, >himself and ultimately others in Nature. "How," he asks himself, >"can I perform this action HARMLESSLY ? Is it LAWFUL to do? >Will I incur future ill effects. In other words, Is it NECESSARY >?" > >In Theosophical literature there is to be found a good deal of >key information about "prayer." >As outlined above, the question of our 'motive' is sketched. >Next, the consideration of the average person's attitude towards >"prayer" is reviewed. Here are some key ideas, and as usual, >starting with some fundamental concepts on devotion and worship : > >"...divine man dwelt in his animal--though externally >human--form...When moved by the law of Evolution, the Lords of >Wisdom infused into him the spark of consciousness, the first >feeling it awoke to life and activity was a sense of solidarity, >of one-ness with his spiritual creators...DEVOTION arose out of >that feeling, and became the first and foremost motor in his >nature; for it is the only one which is natural to our heart, >which is innate in us, and which we find alike in human babe and >the young of the animal. > >This feeling of irrepressible, instinctive aspiration in >primitive man is beautiful, and one may say intuitionally, >described by Carlyle. > > "The great antique heart," he exclaims, "how like a child's in >its simplicity, like a man's in its extreme solemnity and depth ! >heaven lies over him wheresoever he goes or stands on the earth; >making all the earth a mystic temple to him, the earth's business >all a kind of worship...Wonder, miracle encompasses the man; he >lives in an element of miracle...A great law of duty, high as >these two infinitudes (heaven and hell), dwarfing all else, >annihilating all else--it was a reality, and it is one; the >garment only of it is dead; the essence of it lives through all >times and all eternity." > SECRET DOCTRINE I 210-11. > > "1. The Secret Doctrine teaches no Atheism... > > 2. It admits a Logos or a collective "Creator" of the Universe; >a 'Demi-urgos'--in the sense implied when one speaks of an >"Architect" as the "Creator" of an edifice, whereas that >Architect has never touched one stone of it, but while furnishing >the plan, left all the manual labour to the masons; in our case >the plan was furnished by the Ideation of the Universe, and the >constructive labour was left to the Hosts of intelligent Powers >and Forces. But that Demiurgos is no 'personal' deity--an >imperfect extra-cosmic god--but only the aggregate of the Dhyan >Chohans and other forces. > > 3. [these 'forces'] ...are dual in character ...(a) the >irrational 'brute energy' inherent in nature, and (b) the >intelligent soul or cosmic consciousness which directs and guides >that energy and which is the 'Dhyan-Chohanic thought reflecting >the Ideation of the Universal Mind.' > > This results in a perpetual series of physical manifestations >and 'moral effects' on Earth during manvantaric periods, the >whole being subservient to Karma...therefore, neither the >collective Host (Demiurgos), nor any of the working powers >individually, are proper subjects for divine honours or worship. > > All are entitled to the grateful reverence of Humanity, however, >and man ought to be ever striving to help the divine evolution of >'Ideas,' by becoming to the best of his ability a 'co-worker >with nature' in the cyclic task. > > The ever unknowable and incognizable 'Karana' alone, the >'Causeless' Cause of all causes, should have its shrine and altar >on the holy and ever untrodden ground of our heart--invisible, >intangible, unmentioned, save through the still small voice of >our spiritual consciousness. Those who worship before it, ought >to do so in the silence and the sanctified solitude of their >Souls; making their spirit the sole mediator between them and >the 'Universal Spirit,' their good actions the only priests, and >their sinful intentions the only visible and objective sanctified >victims to the 'PRESENCE." SECRET DOCTRINE I p. 279-280. > >"It is the profane of the past ages who have degraded the pure >idea of cosmic creation...it is the esoteric teachings and the >initiates of the Future, whose mission it is, and will be, to >redeem and ennoble once more the primitive conception so sadly >profaned by its crude and gross application to exoteric dogmas >and personations by theological and ecclesiastical religionists. >The silent worship of abstract or 'noumenal' Nature, the only >divine manifestation, is the one ennobling religion of Humanity." >SECRET DOCTRINE I 281 footnote. > > >"When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are...but >enter into 'thine inner chamber and having shut thy door, pray to >thy Father which is in secret," [ Mathew vi]. Our Father is >'within us' "in Secret," our 7th principle [Atma], in the "inner >chamber" of our soul perception. "The Kingdom of Heaven" and of >god "is within us" says Jesus, not 'outside.' SECRET DOCTRINE I >280 fn. > > >"Real ecstasy was defined by Plotinus as "the liberation of the >mind from its finite consciousness, becoming one and identified >with the infinite. This is the highest condition...but not one >of permanent duration, and it is reached only by the very >few...Meditation is silent and 'unuttered' prayer, or, as Plato >expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine; >not to ask any particular good (as in the common meaning of >prayer), but for good itself--for the universal Supreme Good" of >which we are a part on earth, and out of the essence of which we >have all emerged." KEY p. 10 > > >"The Unknowable is capable of relations only in its parts to each >other, but it is non-existent as regards any finite relations. >The visible universe depends for its existence and phenomena on >its mutually acting forms and their laws, not on prayer or >prayers. [Q.: Do you not believe at all in the efficacy of >prayer?] ... Not in prayer taught in so many words and repeated >externally, if by prayer you mean the outward petition to an >unknown God as the addressee... [Q.: Is there any other kind of >prayer?] ... Most decidedly; we call it WILL-PRAYER, and it is >rather an internal command than a petition. [Q.: To whom, then, >do you pray...?] ... To "our Father in heaven"-- in its esoteric >meaning...An Occultist or a theosophist addresses his prayer to >his 'Father which is in secret' (read and try to understand >Matthew VI v 6), not to an extra-cosmic and therefore finite >God, and that "Father" is in man himself. [Q.: Then you make of >man a God?] ... Please say "God" and not "a God." In our sense >the inner man is the only god we can have cognizance of...We call >our "Father in heaven" the deific essence of which we are >cognizant within us, in our heart and spiritual >consciousness....Yet, let no man anthropomorphise that essence >in us...for all are one." >KEY p. 66-7. > >These few references will give the positive aspect of prayer >viewed Theosophically. any kind of prayer that has for object a >special benefit for the one who is praying is held to be a kind >of Black-magic" or sorcery practices. [ see SD I 416 467-9 ] > >Best wishes, > >Dallas >dalval@nwc.net > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cuttersail@aol.com [mailto:Cuttersail@aol.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 1:18 AM >Subject: Re: Meditation as a practical tool for Progress > > >In a message dated 2/1/2000 10:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, >dalval@nwc.net >writes: > > > Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10): > > > Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato > > expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the > > divine=E2=80=A6" > >What is prayer in the light of Theosophy? How is it expressed and >to whom or >what? I think I am still, because of upbringing, thinking that I >have to pray to >"someone deignated" for a particular favor or need. Thank you. >Klaus > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. --=====================_628185==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is an interesting discussion-group on "Consciousness" at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html,

if anyone cares to check it out or, better, to participate.  All are very welcome.  It is not strictly-speaking Theosophical, but leans heavily in that direction, with references to HPB and others.  It is quite non-sectarian in its approach, and has some very interesting members posting.


At 06:08 AM 02/03/2000 -0800, you wrote:
Feb 3rd

Let us look into what Theosophy has to say on this subject of
"Prayer."

If we consider the meaning and use of the word "prayer" we find
that this implies a use of the desire faculty, the mind, and the
will -- so as to bring it into effect.  The Inner Man employs
these  unconsciously all the time that he is alive and awake.  In
fact one might say that every moment of our lives we are
"creators."  The progress of our life and its direction is
constantly regulated by our choices and decisions.  The direction
of any one of these is called the "motive."

Our "motives" can be of two kinds:  1.  Selfish -- for our
personal benefit.  [This can result in harm and disturbance that
will affect others to their detriment, as ell have a repercussion
(Karma) on ourselves.]  Or, 2.  Unselfish.  [A desire to live and
act so that we will harmonize with the patterns of life as
revealed by the Karma of our living and the nature of the
circumstances that we are in at any given moment of time.  Added
to this our goodwill to all other beings in this vast cooperative
we call Nature and which is guided intelligently by the laws of
Brotherhood.]

From this point of view all "prayers," are hopes and decisions
for actions and the effects of adopting these create the kind of
Karma which will follow us into the future.  We are the
"creators" of our own future.

One may say this is highly philosophical, even though this is
reviewed in a flash each time that we make a desire.  In fact we
can call any desire, and any consequent thought and action, a
"manifested prayer."  The results that follow depend on the power
and determination of our applied "WILL."

This fact can be ascertained as follows:  If one desires
something, one visualizes it as being achieved.  A goal is=20 set.
Then follows the assembly of that information needed to create a
plan of procedure.  Then the plan is made and brought into
actuality by application of certain disciplines of mind and of
bodily actions.  If one desires to observe this in terms of time,
then we will see that our memory of the past is brought into
selected focus now in the present, so that our "future" may be
created.  Past, present and future are thus merged by us, for the
moment in the decision-making process.  We do this all the time,
usually automatically and unconsciously

The devoted student of Theosophy before doing this will stop and,
considering the first most important object of living, ask :
"Why is this desire to be accomplished?  Who will benefit?  Is
there any possibility of hurting others?

He does this because he is sure that Karma operates  everywhere,
and that anything which he may do will affect the environment,
himself and ultimately others in Nature.  "How," he asks himself,
"can I perform this action HARMLESSLY ?  Is it LAWFUL to do?
Will I incur future ill effects.  In other words, Is it NECESSARY
?"

In Theosophical literature there is to be found a good deal of
key information about "prayer."
As outlined above, the question of our 'motive' is sketched.
Next, the consideration of the average person's attitude towards
"prayer" is reviewed.  Here are some key ideas, and as usual,
starting with some fundamental concepts on devotion and worship :

"...divine man dwelt in his animal--though externally
human--form...When moved by the law of Evolution, the Lords of
Wisdom infused into him the spark of consciousness, the first
feeling it awoke to life and activity was a sense of solidarity,
of one-ness with his spiritual creators...DEVOTION arose  out of
that feeling, and became the first and foremost motor in his
nature;  for it is the only one which is natural to our heart,
which is innate in us, and which we find alike in human babe and
the young of the animal.

This feeling of irrepressible, instinctive aspiration in
primitive man is beautiful, and one may say intuitionally,
described by Carlyle.

        "The great antique heart," he exclaims, "how like a child's in
its simplicity, like a man's in its extreme solemnity and depth !
heaven lies over him wheresoever he goes or stands on the earth;
making all the earth a mystic temple to him, the earth's business
all a kind of worship...Wonder, miracle encompasses the man;  he
lives in an element of miracle...A great law of duty, high as
these two infinitudes (heaven and hell), dwarfing all else,
annihilating all else--it was a reality, and it is one;  the
garment only of it is dead;  the essence of it lives through all
times and all eternity."
        SECRET DOCTRINE  I  210-11.

          "1.  The Secret Doctrine teaches no Atheism...

        2.  It admits a Logos or a collective "Creator" of the Universe;
a 'Demi-urgos'--in the sense implied when one speaks of an
"Architect" as the "Creator" of an edifice, whereas that
Architect has never touched one stone of it, but while furnishing
the plan, left all the manual labour to the masons;  in our case
the plan was furnished by the Ideation of the Universe, and the
constructive labour was left to the Hosts of intelligent Powers
and Forces.  But that Demiurgos is no 'personal' deity--an
imperfect extra-cosmic god--but only the aggregate of the Dhyan
Chohans and other forces.

        3. [these 'forces'] ...are dual in character ...(a)  the
irrational 'brute energy' inherent in nature, and (b)  the
intelligent soul or cosmic consciousness which directs and guides
that energy and which is the 'Dhyan-Chohanic thought reflecting
the Ideation of the Universal Mind.'

        This results in a perpetual series of physical manifestations
and 'moral effects' on Earth during manvantaric periods, the
whole being subservient to Karma...therefore, neither the
collective Host (Demiurgos), nor any of the working powers
individually, are proper subjects for divine honours or worship.

        All are entitled to the grateful reverence of Humanity, however,
and man ought to be ever striving to help the divine evolution of
'Ideas,'  by becoming to the best of his ability a 'co-worker
with nature' in the cyclic task.

        The ever unknowable and incognizable 'Karana' alone, the
'Causeless' Cause of all causes, should have its shrine and altar
on the holy and ever untrodden ground of our heart--invisible,
intangible, unmentioned, save through the still small voice of
our spiritual consciousness.  Those who worship before it, ought
to do so in the silence and the sanctified solitude of their
Souls;  making their spirit the sole mediator between them and
the 'Universal Spirit,' their good actions the only priests, and
their sinful intentions the only visible and objective sanctified
victims to the 'PRESENCE."      &n= bsp;       SECRET DOCTRINE  I  p. 279-280.

"It is the profane of the past ages who have degraded the pure
idea of cosmic creation...it is the esoteric teachings and the
initiates of the Future, whose mission it is, and will be, to
redeem and ennoble once more the primitive conception so sadly
profaned by its crude and gross application to exoteric dogmas
and personations by theological and ecclesiastical religionists.
The silent worship of abstract or 'noumenal' Nature, the only
divine manifestation, is the one ennobling religion of Humanity."
SECRET DOCTRINE  I  281 footnote.


"When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are...but
enter into 'thine inner chamber and having shut thy door, pray to
thy Father which is in secret," [ Mathew vi].  Our Father is
'within us' "in Secret," our 7th principle [Atma], in the "inner
chamber" of our soul perception.  "The Kingdom of Heaven" and of
god "is within us" says Jesus, not 'outside.'   SECRET DOCTRINE  I
280 fn.


"Real ecstasy was defined by Plotinus as "the liberation of the
mind from its finite consciousness, becoming one and identified
with the infinite.  This is the highest condition...but not=20 one
of permanent duration, and it is reached only by the very
few...Meditation is silent and 'unuttered' prayer, or, as Plato
expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the divine;
not to ask any particular good (as in the common meaning of
prayer), but for good itself--for the universal Supreme Good" of
which we are a part on earth, and out of the essence of which we
have all emerged."   KEY  p. 10


"The Unknowable is capable of relations only in its parts to each
other, but it is non-existent as regards any finite relations.
The visible universe depends for its existence and phenomena on
its mutually acting forms and their laws, not on prayer or
prayers.  [Q.:  Do you not believe at all in the efficacy of
prayer?] ...  Not in prayer taught in so many words and repeated
externally, if by prayer you mean the outward petition to an
unknown God as the addressee... [Q.:  Is there any other kind of
prayer?]  ... Most decidedly;  we call it WILL-PRAYER, and it is
rather an internal command than a petition.  [Q.:  To whom, then,
do you pray...?]  ... To "our Father in heaven"-- in its esoteric
meaning...An Occultist or a theosophist addresses his prayer to
his 'Father which is in secret' (read and try to understand
Matthew  VI v 6), not to an extra-cosmic and therefore finite
God, and that "Father" is in man himself.  [Q.:  Then you make of
man a God?]  ...  Please say "God" and not "a God."  In our sense
the inner man is the only god we can have cognizance of...We call
our "Father in heaven" the deific essence of which we are
cognizant within us, in our heart and spiritual
consciousness....Yet, let no man anthropomorphise  that=20 essence
in us...for all are one."
KEY p. 66-7.

These few references will give the positive aspect of prayer
viewed Theosophically.  any kind of prayer that has for object a
special benefit for the one who is praying is held to be a kind
of Black-magic" or sorcery practices.  [ see SD I 416 467-9 ]

Best wishes,

Dallas
dalval@nwc.net


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<= br>
-----Original Message-----
From: Cuttersail@aol.com [mailto:Cuttersail@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: Meditation as a practical tool for Progress


In a message dated 2/1/2000 10:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dalval@nwc.net
writes:  >

 Mme. Blavatsky says in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (p. 10):
>  >  Meditation ..."is silent and unuttered prayer, or, as Plato
>  expressed it, "the ardent turning of the soul towards the
>  divine=E2=80=A6"

What is prayer in the light of Theosophy? How is it expressed and
to whom or
what?  I think I am still, because of upbringing, thinking that I
have to pray to
"someone deignated" for a particular favor or need. Thank you.
Klaus



-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com

Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting=20 of
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
--=====================_628185==_.ALT-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 3 20:45:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA21043 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:38:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:29:38 EST Subject: Theos-World Re: JCS: The brain: simple or complex To: owner-jcs-online@lists.zynet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 2/2/0 7:03:36 PM, xbq83@dial.pipex.com (Roger Cook) writes: >Leon Maurer's observation on Ray Scanlon's description of how the brain >functions: > >> Could we be getting a bit off track and failing to consider the dynamic >> observer-user-thinker-chooser who, blinded by this sort of materialistic >> and presumptive thinking, is not seeing the world or the sky for the forest >> and the trees?:-) > >This could be seen as characterising the meeting-point between free will >('I' am in control) with its antithesis ('I' am just the outcome of neural >processes)? If the latter proves to be correct, then the homunculus, what >Leon calls the observer-user-thinker-chooser, is just an abstraction I have >created to prop up my world. My personal view is that we may be entirely >stimulus-driven. For example, the same glass of water may be viewed quite >differently, depending on our metabolic state. If bright-eyed and >bushy-tailed of a morning, then half-full - if liverish and constipated, >then half-empty. The construction we put on things is in this case >viscerally derived. How can you, as if you were in total self control of your faculties, knowledge and wisdom, make these contradictory statements concluding that you might not be in such control? Coming from such a direction, what kind of credibility could your opinions have? Who's thinking and talking about this, you or your neurology? If we are entirely stimulus driven, who makes the decision to use aspirin, Tylenol or Ibuprofen when you feel you have a headache? > >I am suggesting that Libet's findings may have shown Willis Freeman to >be correct when he says that consciousness is "mopping up" afterwards... >consciousness has a role, but it is not to initiate action. It is to >prepare the self in the light of experience (p 722 JCS 5, No 5/6). >This raises the daunting possibility that all our thoughts and actions are >the outcome of amazingly complex neural interactions - the idea of being >in overall control may be just part of that process. Baloney. I'm amazed at how glib people are who, using their self determined individuality, self acquired knowledge, and self accepted preconceptions, self choose to continue promoting the possibility (using the flimsiest analogies, and based on their ignorance of the fundamental nature of consciousness, or even the basic Laws of Nature) -- that they are nothing more than slaves of their neural correlates. If, so, then who is the master and who is the slave who is mouthing such nonsense about himself? If it's the neural correlates that make the conscious decisions, who programmed their algorithms? If such loose thinkers could explain the mechanisms and cause of qualia, awareness and will with any sort of scientific and/or logical deduction, induction, thesis or synthesis, they might comprehend who and what they actually are... But they can't even come close to such an understanding, since physical oriented reductive science cannot reach past the limitations of matter and form, or the words and symbols representing their properties. They refuse to believe or understand that image information throughout Nature can be modulated, carried and transmitted solely by and through the wave nature of energy fields. Even a digital transformation of information is nothing but a linear series of analogous magnetic fields that ultimately define nonlinear wave patterns of holographic sensory pictures in the brain, mind and memory fields, accessible to our "inquiray" -- when willfully emanated from the zero-point center of conscious or unconscious awareness. When science can explain, in purely material terms, how a 3-D image is created in my mind and consciousness, and how, through what mechanisms, I can guide my hand to reproduce that image exactly on a piece of paper that is hidden from my view (which I could do prior to age 12), I might be prone to accept the view that consciousness (mind, memory), awareness and will are epiphenomena of the brain's neurology. As it is, however, it's much more logical to believe that everything in the universe is connected holistically, and proceeds from the simplicity of absolute abstract energy in the form of fundamental non-polar spin -- that ultimately squirts this universe in a spiral vortex out of its static zero-point center of awareness, into the vast complexity of multidimensional fields, within fields, within fields -- that begins in the close-to-infinite, immaterial and immeasurable, vibrational frequency orders of prior causative consciousness energies (such as universal mind, memory, awareness, and the source of will) -- and ends in the course grained, condensed fields of particulate mass-energy that compose our brains, bodies, and the outer self-experienced, material world formed around us. From this, we could easily assume that the brain and body are simply the optical-electrical-chemical-mechanical interface between our uniquitous zero-point originated transcendent awareness, will, memory and mind, and the outer world of food, water, air, shelter and other material amenities that surround us as more or less necessary aids to our survival and personal well being... But, all originating from the same source of fundamentally conscious primal "spinergy". It's also amazing that the promoters of materialism cannot realize, from pure observation alone, that it is far easier for a creative mind to manipulate the forms of matter, than it is for matter to manipulate itself, let alone minds or consciousness. So, which came first? The seer, or the seen? The image, or the construction? The thought-created designs and blueprints, or the flying airplane? To paraphrase Einstein, Why would God (assuming there is such a conscious entity) play dice with evolution by leaving it all to chance? Is the Universe and its inherent wisdom (based on it's past knowledge and experience stored as abstract patterns of energy flow lines in its initial spin, perhaps) less competent than we are (who have a long way to go to gain even a small part of such knowledge and wisdom)? I think not. And, I challenge all scientists to prove differently, or falsify the initial premises leading to such conclusions -- that brain, body and all other forms of matter are the product of consciousness, and ultimately, of universal Self awareness -- not the reverse. Incidentally, to save burdening the moderator with another post;-) -- it is pointless to argue with Scanlon's views, since he admittedly isn't a scientist or philosopher interested in working on the problem of explaining consciousness and its interrelationships with matter, but is only interested, apparently, in the mechanics of the brain. Therefore, he can take his narrow opposing space alongside all those who are interested only in the theology of their personal gods... Both believing that the real synthetic, multidisciplinary science of open minded searching for the meaning and explanation of ALL of Nature, its origins, its interactions, its forms, and its expressions -- without resort to either materialism or Gods -- be damned.... But, that's what I thought this forum was all about. (I'm sure there are several brain science forums that Scanlon could better spend his time arguing his narrow, epiphenomenal views that the TRN [thalamic reticular nucleus] is the sole source of consciousness [mind, memory], awareness and will in the Universe. If so, I wonder which one of us, having this marvelous organ in the first place, dreamed up, and planned the evolution of this intricately contrived Universe so as to give it to all of us.:-) Leon Maurer leonmaurer@aol.com (not the moderator) http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 4 01:50:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA32519 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:35:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <79.12c0cc4.25cbda38@aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 02:31:04 EST Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World RE: Evidence for mental events breaking physical speed limit To: theos-talk@theosophy.com CC: jaen@teleport.com, MysticCounselor@aol.com, omni_dimensional@yahoo.com, grasshopper@earthling.net, dalval@nwc.net, bigmurr@mindspring.com, CoNewsNet2@aol.com, compiler@wisdomworld.org, carson@blavatsky.net, ElementUUU@aol.com, ThermalMan@aol.com, rickmaurer@writeme.com, philsmac@earthlink.net, Ed.Maurer@havasint.com, Danguskincaid@aol.com, dyanne@net.perryhill.co.za MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 11/26/99 8:31:41 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: >Nov 26TH > >Dear Leon. > >I thank you for sharing the material that you have in your two posts. > >It is most interesting and also it reveals that some of the >analysis is apparently very advanced in terms of such detail. I >notice that those who have considered cognition, receptivity of >ideas, and the generating of concepts have developed a technical >vocabulary that one would have to learn carefully before being >able to discuss at parity with them in their vocabulary. Yes, scientists think about the nature of reality in reductive, analytic terms--examining the particulars to explain the generality. Therefore, they cannot base their thinking on unproved fundamental truths or first principles--and thus, resort to labeling the physical properties of the things they speak of with technical jargon. Unfortunately, while this is fine when dealing with material things that can be codified and measured, it does not work with intangible ideas like consciousness and our inner world of mind and memory, which are entirely subjective. However, in theosophy we do have an extensive technical language, given us by HPB, that describes these subjective worlds. Fortunately, she also described them with reference to the scientific jargon of her day. Unfortunately, however, she used words for the similar things or concept, like "planes," when speaking two dimensionally of multidimensional ("coadunate but not consubstantial") "fields" of energy that have entirely different meanings to reductive scientists today. They see and study only the lowest fields of matter. But, "planes," from a theosophical point of view, are valid descriptions of the levels of unified consciousness at the interfaces or crossovers of energy between the 7 fold fields of our inner being which corresponds and are analogous to the inner nature of the cosmos itself. Science has yet to realize this. As for learning a new language when speaking to scientists... It is unnecessary... So long as we use the terms for these fields and their interfaces that science can understand. e.g., The word "quanta" used by science refers to any fundamental particle-wave (photon, astron, menton, viton, etc.) no matter on what plane or field it manifests on. Therefore scientists, some of whom have arrived at an understanding of intangible energies emanating from the ubiquitous zero-point (i,e., laya points of primal space) can understand me when I speak of Astro-biological coenergetic fields and the universal cyclic principles that govern them (that are analogous to the 7-fold fields and their intersecting planes spoken of in theosophical terms). This is what HPB meant, in part, by her advice to "teach theosophy (karma and reincarnation, fundamental principles, etc.) to ordinary people, as well as scientists, in the language of (this) age." When scientists (as the "gurus" of this age) understand the connections between the science of theosophy and the material science that they already have explored to its ultimate limit, they will verify the validity of the fundamental truths (cosmic origin, cycles, karma and reincarnation, evolutionary purpose and the means to influence the inner fields, and be influenced by them, without interfering with individual and group karma, etc.) in the modern "language of the age" that the ordinary people (whom we must reach before the inevitable collapse of this world) can accept This, will change their modes of thinking, and help induce them to act on the basis of such new ideas for the benefit of the all encompassing universal Self, rather than for the benefit of their lower, animal natures. >Theosophy, however, to my way of understanding is written for the >common man to grasp -- the one who is most likely to actually use >the mind, thoughts, ideas and concepts without going through the >analytical process that a professor might use. >There has to be a bridge between the two. Yes, but remember that the SD is the "Synthesis of Science, Religion, and philosophy"... And, therefore, is written for everyone (including scientists) to grasp. Vide Einstein's grasp of fundamental principles that led him, through his study of the SD, to the theory of relativity and the understanding that energy and mass are interchangeable, and all "things," relative. However, the professors are trained to put aside their prejudices and opinions and examine (as well as teach) only the physically observed or experimentally determinable facts. This is necessary for their (and our) understanding of the physical world -- in a manner which is closest to our ordinary perceptions. But, since they cannot put aside their rational minds, they can also be influenced to change both their points of view and their minds -- whenever new information appears, which, by rigid deductive logic based on sound principles, can be shown to be irrefutable. That is how theosophy can reach into and conjoin with the world of science. But, its a difficult job -- since not only do their individual points of view differ from ours, as well as between themselves, but they speak separate languages in each major or minor branch of science. (ref: the languages or jargons of physics, cosmology, biology, chemistry, physiology, neurology, biology, psychology, economics, paleontology, etc.) The one thing they have in common, though, is the "scientific method" and reductive processes of objective observation, experimentation, and logical induction. This is, in one sense, in direct contradiction of the theosophical method of logical deduction based on first or fundamental principles that can be verified solely by subjective experience, meditative concentration, and introspection... Something, science cannot accept. Apropos, one of our major problems, and the basis of my own work, is to try to convince scientists to accept subjective experiences as objective knowledge -- as theosophists accept the accumulated wisdom and consistent teachings of the countless Adepts who have meticulously, examined, subjectively, all aspects of the inner and outer worlds (the seven fold coenergetic fields spoken of in ABC theory, in parallel with the 7 fold nature of the universe that theosophy speaks of) and their interfaces and interactions since earliest times... And, have come to their consensus by comparing their experiences, one with the other, and offering as "truth" only those conclusions that are mutually and consistently experienced by all of them, or can be logically deduced from such experiences. In a Universe that is both subjectively metaphysical (consciousness, mind, memory, will, awareness, etc.) as well as objectively physical (brain, organs, body, world, cosmos, etc.) -- how else are we to understand the true nature and common origin, as well as the scientific and also transcendental interface (or "bridge") between these dual aspects of a fundamentally triune universe? The reason why it has now become so important to reach the scientific minded (i.e., logical materialists) is that scientists are the present "gurus" of this age whom the great majority of "common men" follow as their "mentors" and as arbiters of ultimate truth. Therefore, to change the minds of these half-blind *followers* -- who have accepted the "established" materialistic and reductive ways of objective analysis, based on the "scientific method" as the *only* way to obtain knowledge of the workings of the universe, as well as of our outer and inner physical and mental worlds -- we must first open and change the mind of their gurus in the "language of this age" (while we continue to teach theosophy as HPB presented it, to those "searchers" capable of understanding it in the language of theosophy). But for those who follow the gurus of science, it's not a new language we need -- but, a modification of the English language, that synthesizes the language of science with the language of theosophy and the common language of the people. One way this can be done, directly, is by merging the languages of interdisciplinary science with the languages of interdisciplinary theosophy. "Interdisciplinary ," referring to those "gurus" who specialize in separate branches of either science (e.g., physics, biology, chemistry, psychology, paleontology, archeology, economics, etc., etc.), or theosophy (e.g., Rajah Yoga, Gnana Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Kriya Yoga, Bakti Yoga, etc., etc.) Another, and far better way to reach the ordinary people, however, is to use the common language of mass entertainment (movies and television) to "picture" the synthesis of both science and theosophy, and bring the resultant merged truth of both universal origins and its operations extending from consciousness to matter, directly into their minds eye. For most people, simply "preaching" the good life and the eternal ethics and morality, as well as the practice of brotherhood, does no good at all without first teaching them the rationale behind the fundamental laws that convinces them of the origins and immutability of karma and reincarnation, and makes them aware that, together, their psychic powers coupled with an understanding of the fundamental laws of nature, are powerful tools that can work wonders in restoring the world to its original pristine harmony for the benefit of all. My ABC theory is an intellectual as well as graphical attempt to bridge that gap of misperception that keeps subjective spiritual (consciousness) science (as taught to us through theosophy) from merging with material (mass-energy) science as taught to us by a long process of examining the particulars through use of the "scientific method" -- which has led us to this amazing new high technology of the Internet, and worldwide instantaneous communication. Unfortunately, what we have gained in communication potential, has been at the sacrifice of our overall ecological and physical health. But, that price has already been paid, and it behooves us now to turn the tide before the final crunch might leave us with none left to hear our messages of hope. > >The word gestalt seem to be used as one would who views a whole >picture, regardless of the way in which it is built up. I seem >to gather the concept that in describing ideas and their >reception, comparison, and the response thereto, have been >compared largely to comparative details found in photography or >printing, and the way in which the eye can be deceived by those >processes into seeing colors and shapes that are not actually >there, in other words their representatives or "shadows" of >reality. > >But why conclude that the processes used in our physical world of >color and shape are entirely comparable to the subjective >processes of idea perception, formation or conveyance? >What if a totally different process were used in a medium of >which we have as yet no exact perception, but, whose translated >effects we form our basis of experience here, can be reduced to >the analogy just mentioned. > >Would this not be carrying the analogy too far? Not really. We don't assume that these process are "entirely comparable" -- only analogically so. Also, the process of communication of image information (sound, pictures, etc.) used by us on the material plane depends on the vibrational wave patterns set up in electromagnetic fields (radio waves, light images, etc.) that are analogous to the transfer of sound through atmospheric fields, etc. Why would nature pass it's information in, on, or between the various planes or fields of being, other that by reliance on the wave (cyclic) nature of all fields, no matter whether they are physical-material or astral-semimaterial--all the way up to the successively more tenuous fields of mind (manas), memory (akasha) and intuitive spiritual consciousness (Buddhi). These are all interdependent "fields" -- all originating from one source, and carrying image information in the form of cyclic wave interference patterns--like the interference patterns in a material hologram that can be resolved into a visible and apparently "real" 3-D object hanging in thin air. As Einstein said, "God doesn't play dice" -- indicating that all of nature works by analogy and correspondence, and it always chooses the most parsimonious solution. Why, then, would communication of "images" between our inner fields (all of which obey the 2nd fundamental principle's laws of periodicity and cycles) operate any differently than the communication of information between our "physical" fields which obey the same laws? Seeing all actions on any level as one fundamental action principle that reflect themselves, simultaneously, in every coadunate field linked through their zero-points of origin -- is what is meant by a "gestalt," or "holistic" view of the universe in general, as well as in particular. Any action leading to an experience, a thought, or a memory is instantly reflected into the highest and most subtle, near infinite frequency, universal field (Akasha) and stored there indefinitely, if not eternally -- depending on the level of applied energy.or force. No pattern of vibrational change in any coenergetic field of action is ever lost. Understanding this, is the first step in understanding how karma actually works. > >As an example I cast a fleeting glance at the SUN. I do that >because previous experience shows I can burn my retina and cause >a loss of future perception there where that bright image is for >a moment focused. But with this fleeting look I not only see the >orange white color, but there is as an after-image a blue color >that shows up. How to account for that? The effect can be >analyzed, the occurrence is not explained thereby. The event is >recorded but not explained except by using an analogy we are >familiar with. The names do not explain. But they give us a >"talking point." The residual blue color is accounted for by the harmonic frequencies of light that are generated whenever a particular fundamental color frequency is perceived (similar to the various harmonic overtones that occur when a fundamental note is struck on a musical instrument). When the primary note or frequency is stopped suddenly, what remains is a final complementary harmonic frequency which, in the case of a light image, is the faint overtone remaining and affecting the slower decaying field of our sensory neurons, which are then perceived as the complementary color--until that, too, fades away into blackness, or no color. This slow rise and decay of neurological fields, explains the persistence of image that enables us to see a sequential projection of single moving picture frames as a continuous illusion of overlapping motion without apparent flicker. Yes, names do not explain anything. But, nevertheless, we must name the things we talk about so that everyone understand what it is that we are referring to when we try to explain their individual natures as well as their interrelationships. That's another reason why we need to synthesize the two languages of science and theosophy... So that we all understand that we are talking of the same things, as well as the similar processes that govern their actions and interactions. For example, theosophy speaks of Manas as a separate "principle" and explains it's nature in terms of its processes (thinking, reasoning, imagining, recall, recollection, etc.) as well as its relationship to all our other inner fields, and its origin and evolution out of the primal source or absolute in conjunction with all the other "principles." While science speaks of the same thing and calls it "mind" -- but cannot separate it from the physical processes of the brain. Thus, to them, consciousness is considered an epiphenomena of the brain's neural systems, and not as a primary aspect of our seven fold nature based on the fundamental principles, as postulated by theosophy. If they both could accept its nature as a field that follows the laws of cycles, and is part of the zero-point energy fields that are independent of, although interdependent with the material fields, there would be no problem for either of them to understand how these non material and material fields can interact and transfer their information between them by inductive, harmonic and resonant frequency transformational processes -- such as the striking of a low note on a bass fiddle causes an adjacent violin to sound the same note in a different octave, as well as its overtones on adjacent strings, etc. To get a basic idea of how these holographic field transformational processes work, you might read *Chase(?) the Wild Pendulum* by Itzak Bentoff, or *A New Science of Life* by Rupert Sheldrake -- both of which describe the fundamental holographic nature of the Universe as well as the action and interaction of its "morphogenetic fields". They also compare these processes analogously with material processes such as holography, and the transmission of images over the "airwaves" -- and explain how these intangible vibrational images or interference patterns can interface with and effect physical processes and material objects like film holograms, TV picture tubes and electromagnetic loudspeaker systems -- and, someday, our own pranic or chi energies for purposes of healing. (Remember Doc McCoy's magic healing wand in Star Trek?:-) Did we ever wonder how a conscious thought can activate and effect the motion of our physical body simply by the activation of our will? The energy necessary for such action must come from the endless source of universal energy that is funneled through an invisible point that is between the objective and subjective worlds. And, this energy must be transferred in some manner to the neurological system. Perhaps, as ABC postulates -- through a series of coenergetic fields that are intermediaries between our self awareness and our brain. Therefore, couldn't that zero-point be considered also as the source of our one-pointed center of perceptive awareness which is phenomenally causative in its fundamental nature? How can we operate from our point of subjectively, as creative beings, any different from the causative universal Self that guides the initial formations of its self generated universe? Is not the initial field emanating out of the Absolute -- that separates into Perusha and Prakriti (consciousness-matter) and, in turn, evolves into Fohat and Mahat (electricity-thought), who together "create" the physical cosmos in the same manner that we create our outer world through our coenergetic fields of consciousness (mind, memory) -- empowered by the same force of Will originating from the same zero-point? Does not all these processes obey the same fundamental laws of periodicity or cycles, based on the principle of vibrational motion originating in initial SPIN (represented in theosophy by the empty circle outside of all manifested time and space)? Does not this initial spin next evolve into a manifest spatial or one dimensional cycle (like a vibrating "string") that would necessary have a common point of location at its ends (representing its source of manifest energy or will)? This is analogous to the stationary source of centrifugal force or energy in our hand as we spin a string tethered ball in a wide circle around our head. Doesn't theosophy teach "as above, so below," and that everything in the universe can be explained by analogy and correspondence? Today, the above concept has become the basis of the new scientific "Superstring" theory... So, we are making some progress, after all. But only a very few scientists know this. In spite of all our ideas to the contrary, science, at its fringes, as HPB predicted, is getting closer and closer to an inevitable acceptance of theosophical principles. However, In light of the negative effects rapidly overcoming the positive changes in our world going on today, and the inevitable catastrophic collapse of our entire world's ecological and economic balance looming on the horizon, these ideas are far too slow in reaching the mainstream of science, and through them, filtering down to the people. Didn't it take almost thirty years before Einstein's theory of relativity was accepted almost universally? And, today, there are even some respected scientists who deny it's validity in the face of some contradictory quantum theories that have come later. But, hasn't this incomplete knowledge, however, fueled our blind rush toward high technological developments dependent on rapidly depleting energy resources, and reinforced by the materialistic thinking that drives the world to a frenzy of personal greed and indifference to the fate of others? True religion based on fundamental principles could take up some of the slack, admittedly... But, where do we see this used as an effective means to counteract the overwhelming powers of materialism that are more and more rapidly driving the world toward it's ultimate catastrophic collapse and potential doom for the Human race -- not to mention the loss of the little bit of progress we've made in the last 12,000 years? >Now it is dark as I write and the SUN is behind a hill to the >west, using my mind's eye I can cast up an image drawn from >memory and place in and on that any variation my imagination >might desire to picture. Is it possible to say where memory >ceases and fantasy begins? Who and what are the processes by >which fantasy operates to blur accurate memory? Fantasies are the processes of thought or vibrations in the field of mind that are activated by our imagination (or self willed "modifications of the thinking principle") that have no basis in objective reality. Naturally, these wave patterns of imaginary images when brought up to mind interfere with the analogous sensory image wave patterns in our less willfully malleable (but still changeable) memory field. Therefore, these fields, which have a two way action-reaction path between them, tend to modify and blur each other as we observe them from our coadunate static zero-point center of perceptive awareness (which looks at both fields simultaneously). Thus, the accuracy of our memory would have a tendency to become compromised by our fantasies, or as Buddha might say, "wrong" thoughts. > >I visited Ankor Wat, Ellora, Pollonarua, Sigiria, Buddha Gaya, >the Kulu valley and Swat, and also Borobudur many years ago and >can recreate in my mind pictures of what I saw and where I went. >I know that these images drawn from memory were and are limited >to an experience then. And that the current reality is quite >different as to superficial detail. > >I have listened to talks and lectures, and sometimes an hour >later the exact statements, words, meanings have become blurred. >I know that with the help of Hypnotism it is possible to recreate >and reproduce the exact words and events as heard or seen by me. >And that is limited to my perception. Had you been with me on my >trips or attended the same lectures, your memories and >perceptions would vary, in detail from mine, and one might say >that the degree of attention WE placed on the event delineated >our memories with more or less accuracy. That's true, since we all direct our conscious attention to different aspects of what we mutually experience, and these experiences are further modified by our different memories and associations. Thus our later memories of the same experience vary and are interpreted differently (as you mention below). > The mysterious power of concentration, attention and will that >each one employs individually leaves an impression that is strong >or weak in terms of the personal interests of the experiencer. >And this is another variable. The object in itself is a reality >then, and a new reality today. My memory shows intensities or >gaps depending on what I was interested in at the time of making >a personal record. Additionally in me is a recording system that >I cannot ordinarily evoke which records everything. I would also >take into account the well-known biological/medical fact that the >human body changes its atomic and molecular structure to about 96 >% annually. And in 7 years it is said to be totally replaced. >Yet, my senses of identity and my "memories" of 30 to 50 years >ago are available to me even in the physical tool that my body is >today, and even though it has been altered or replaced. How is >that explained? Transmission of impressions? How ? Easily... Since the material changes in the body have little relationship to the nonphysical energy fields that make up the balance of our seven fold natures. It's only the malleable field of mind that we can change willfully. And, these changes can, by application of the power of will, transfer their vibratory patterns to other fields, reversibly -- from our consciousness to our body, and from our body's brain and sensory organs to our awareness.... Thus, accounting for our ability to not only self heal our bodies by correct visualizations and application of willful intent, but also to change or modify our memories as well as our karma. Didn't Buddha say, "EVERYTHING we are is the product of what we have THOUGHT?" Therefore, mind has a phenomenological power. And, that could only be if Mind is an electrical coenergetic field can interface with the energy field of the Brain which doesn't depend on the neurons changing their fundamental elements -- so long as the neurons analogous seven fold fields remain intact. Even a cell in the body has its own inner life fields. Remember? As above so below. All living organisms of matter are surrounded by their own analogous, coenergetic fields, as well as having a central zero-point of individual awareness. Thus, everything in the universe has the potential of perceptive awareness. Speaking in theosophical terms, the zero-point must be everywhere -- with each point surrounded by its own coenergetic fields that eventually evolves into its seven fold nature when it arrives at the human stage. The manifestation of this potential awareness, of course, would depend on the degree of evolution of the field energy transformational mechanisms within the evolving brain. As for our (or, for that matter, any sentient being's) relationship to the world... Identity, per se -- has nothing to do with physical form, and is a fundamental a priori function of the static, unchanging zero-point of individual self that has the same characteristics as the universal Self. And, thus, can never change, no matter what changes are made in the various coadunate fields of energy surrounding it, or the materials that compose its surrounding body. All we can do is make the changes on the lower level of mind that resonate into the higher Manas and Buddhi fields that, along with Atma, the spiritual self, constitute the eternal monad that impresses its skandas (acquired tendencies) in the akashic record, and follows us from lifetime to lifetime driven by the laws of karma. Knowing how all this works from a theosophical scientific point of view only adds to our wisdom in enabling us to cope with life as we experience it in the ever present NOW. The secret is that the zero-point-instant of our self identity is identical with the zero-point-origin of primal space, which is everywhere... Therefore, we can truly say, "The self of one is the Self of all," and that "Universal Brotherhood is a law of Nature." And that's really all that is, and all that counts. > >At best we have proved that each event produces a hologram of >effects, and that all who were present absorbed an aspect of that >hologram and each pixel demonstrates both its individuality (if >that be allowed) and its capacity for registering the entire >event/picture, or whatever. We never can "prove" this. We can only experience it subjectively and know it intuitively. We can then, logically, deduce its necessary mechanisms by applying the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity (along with the "secret" given above) under which the universe must work. This was clearly spelled out in the second fundamental principle which logically progresses from the first principle, and to the third principle. That's all there is that we have to work with -- whether we are creating a universe, painting a picture out of our imagination, designing and building a spaceship, or creating a hologram. First, the ideational image, then the thought image, then the blueprint image, and finally the physical structural image. All of these steps are holographic in their interrelated and dynamical nature, and are complete in themselves in the first manifest moment of the big, bigger, biggest bang, bang, bang -- as the universe initially explodes into each of its successive logoic coenergetic fields -- and then proceeds through its final condensation into our present multidimensional, dual natured, seven fold -- although eternally singular Cosmos, or (scientifically) "Space-time Continuum." >Now if the whole of Nature does this, if every sentient atom has >this capacity, then the surrounding "ether" is surcharged with >these billions of superimposed images -- all memories. Theosophy >holds that the Astral Light and the Akasa are both recording >areas where these are stored for short periods or long periods of >time. > >But of what possible use is this descriptive process, much of >which may be speculative, because we cannot entirely penetrate >(yet) to the planes or perception and reception of Nature. It >may satisfy our hope of providing us, within the framework of our >experience on the physical plane, with something that >approximates the reality. So, then, What value has it? Understanding the actual process of information transfer between our inner fields, simplifies our concept of reality, links mind and consciousness to brain and body (through their electromagnetic fields) as well, and, thereby, gives us a rationale that can persuade the material minded to change their ideas about their own natures. This can make them far more prone to realize the ultimate truth of and accept the theosophical teachings of karma and reincarnation. Today, with the new post modern science of quantum cosmology rooted in Superstring and M-brane theories that recognizes these zero-point fields and speak of their "11 dimensions" (10, plus time, which is closely parallel with theosophical as well as both the Hebrew Sephirothal and analogous Brahmanic teachings) -- opens the door for us to penetrate the world of science, and thus influence the scientific gurus who, in turn, influence their materialistic disciples in this modern age. These are the ones that HPB wanted us to reach, and therefore, such knowledge serves the real purpose of the theosophical Movement in this last and most important cycle of the TM before either our past depredations of the Earth and its overpopulation, or any one of a number of possible man made economic or ecological disasters overpowers us -- or the beginnings of a future "paradise on Earth" can begin to occur. And, this can only happen if the bulk of the world's population, change their minds about the nature of reality, learn the universal truths leading to right thought and right action, and begin to practice Universal brotherhood and intelligent altruism. > >As to the processes that either the Sankhya or the Buddhist >schools discuss, the verbiage may seem different, but either of >them deal with the same things, one uses a different method than >the other. What is valuable is the ability to perceive this and >then to reconcile the two. I would say that this ability far >transcends any ability to find the precise words that describe >either process or position. This last is synthesis rather than >analysis. One can spend a great deal of time trying to adjust >words, when a simple adjustment of ideas to discover the >essentials is valuable. Is that why it is said that a picture is >worth a thousand words? Yes. And, that's why it is necessary to give out the "picture" of nature's formerly mysterious technology of information transfer between our differing (higher or lower frequency orders) fields of energy -- that not only explains the morphogenetic field interactions between the astral and material body fields, necessary to understand the "real" physical evolutionary processes, but also clarifies how the same principles operate between and link together the higher nonmaterial fields of vital energy, desire, mind, memory, intuition, etc., all the way up to the akashic record. Remember, all we can do, as HPB did, is to try to create such pictures in the mind through the use of language. But this language has to be greatly modified so that it interfaces with both theosophy and the scientific method that governs most thinking in this materialistic age. Fortunately, we have the mass media that uses a new language of 3-D computer generated imagery as well as the spoken word to transmit nonlinear multidimensional ideas that can be understood by everyone, no matter what degree of education they may have. > >I realize that this is in no way an "answer" to what I have read. >But it is a point of view that attempts to do away with confusion >of language and ask what actually is a thought, or an idea. How >is it generated? Who or what in us does this generating? What >can we do to control and use this process? It is so easy to >lose sight of the questions in attempts to make scholarly >definitions. The definitions we must use to explain theses processes must not be scholarly, but logically consistent with proven scientific principles that have been gathered and utilized through long period of meticulous observations and experimentation that the world takes, mistakenly, as fundamental truths upon which they base their present thinking processes, their actions, as well as their useful technologies. Once we understand the differences between our awareness and self identity and the fields through which they work, as well of the processes of information retention, transformation and transmission between our seven fields of action, it will be relatively easy to jump the gap between theosophical and pragmatic materialistic thinking. The questions asked can only be answered if we first understand the nature of the fields through which information is absorbed, retained and transferred coenergetically from one level of consciousness to another, how this information (whether in the form of words or pictures) is carried holographically by each field, and how our center of awareness accesses this information and experiences it. This is partially explained in the preliminar y notes for my theory of Astro biological Coenergetics, posted at: http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ And, will be further explained in a forthcoming book... Although, I have no idea when and if it will ever be finished, since new scientific discoveries and theories such as Superstring and M-branes, P-branes, etc, are gradually bringing mainstream science into the picture -- with new discoveries coming forth at a rapidly accelerating rate. > >In the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, (By H.P.Blavatsky) in the section >titled THE TWO PATHS there is an attempt made to show the >difference and the relationship between what are named the "Eye" >and the "Heart" doctrines. It is inevitable that the academic >who seeks extreme accuracy in describing events and relationships >uses a precise vocabulary. But while this has its value, the >actual user of the process needs practical answers. > >As an example there is a relationship, and also a wide difference >between the Chemist in his lab and the Chemical Engineer in his >factory. The Engineer uses the discoveries of the Chemist, but >in making them practically available to the public, he employs >shortcuts that achieve results statistically useful while >rejecting those byproducts, etc. which have no relevance to what >he desires to develop and make available for use. It is not that >they are not recognized, they are merely set aside so that they >can be analyzed and perhaps developed separately into products >that can be used for other things. It is also true that these >byproducts have often (in the past) been unsafely stored or >dumped and the resulting pollution of land, water and air has >caused important legal revisions to be applied as to their >disposal. But the real moral of the story is that the Engineer >under the control of the owners failed to provide adequate >safeguards for the public. One may call this the "moral" aspect >of science and its applications. It is this moral aspect that >ought to be always held relevant. Does not everyone ultimately >suffer from such moral lapses? What is their future impact on >those who permit this and on the civilization that accepts them? All this is true, and the only way I can see, IMHO, to counteract the irresponsibility of current thought and its resultant negative actions, as well as bring the eye doctrine and the heart doctrine into a synthetic whole, would be to merge both theosophy and science by means of a precise "new" vocabulary that can be understood by theosophists who now follow the heart doctrine and/or the eye doctrine, along with the scientifically based world that follows the reductive thinking processes of materialism. Didn't HPB teach us the eye doctrine first in the SD in order to give us a true basis of understanding the necessity of the heart doctrine? Didn't she, as well as WQJ stress the importance of Gnana yoga as the primary study of theosophy--reflected in the thousands of pages of the Secret Doctrine (which came after the voluminous study of comparative religion in Isis Unveiled)? And, didn't she leave the Heart Doctrine to be practiced simultaneously (by each individual chela) with the help of her translations and teachings in the skinny little book, The Voice of the Silence--supplemented by WQJ's equally short transliteration of Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms? Therefore, the ordinary people, too, have to be given the Eye Doctrine first, in terms that they can comprehend, before they can understand the necessity for accepting their responsibility to the whole of life and, thus, have a *reason* to begin practicing the altruism that is the true purpose of the Heart Doctrine. To demand the other way around, falls into the realm of "preaching" -- which is almost asking to be resisted by independent young minds that demand a logical or emotional reason for everything they do. > I hope this discussion further clarifies the minds of most of us who, hopefully, are busy trying to change the minds of others. :-). But, it ain't easy to understand the real nature of "the unexplained laws of nature and the psychical powers latent in man." Leon Maurer http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/UAG.home.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/LHM.index.html -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 4 16:21:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id QAA10326 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:00:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <008701bf6f64$053782c0$d709c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World Ten more items added to BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:02:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm The following TEN items have been added today to the archives: ** Arrival of Theosophists [Reprinted from The Madras Mail, December 23, 1884, p. 5] ** Madame Coulomb at the College Hall [Reprinted from The Madras Mail, October 20, 1884, p. 5.] ** Helena Paulovna Blavatsky [Reprinted from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1902 edition. ] ** Helena Petrovna Blavatsky [Reprinted from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1910 edition. ] ** Theosophy: The Himalayan Brothers by W. H. Harrison. [Reprinted from The Medium and Daybreak, (London), October 5, 1883, p. 628-629.] ** Adoption of Buddhism by a Christian Minister by A. Perera [Reprinted from The Madras Mail, December 24, 1884, p. 5.] ** Madame Blavatsky and Her Theosophy by Arthur Lillie [Reprinted from Light (London), March 9, 1895, pp. 116-117.] ** Madame Blavatsky as a Spiritualist by James Burns [Reprinted from The Medium and Daybreak (London), March 15, 1889, p. 165.] ** A Defence of Madame Blavatsky's Views and Phenomenal Abilities by Ellen H. Morgan [Reprinted in The Medium and Daybreak (London), January 4, 1884, pp. 5-6.] ** The Blavatsky Correspondence by George Patterson [Reprinted from The Madras Mail, September 29, 1884, p. 5.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 5 05:55:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id FAA21333 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:29:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World RE: Evidence for mental events breaking physical speed limit Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:23:12 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf6fcb$6397cc00$220e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <79.12c0cc4.25cbda38@aol.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 5th Dear Leon: I thank you for your lengthy comments -- very interesting. May I take some time to consider and offer some more of mine a little later ? Dal Here are some preliminary notes ============= COPY ================== In a message dated 11/26/99 8:31:41 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: >Nov 26TH > >Dear Leon. > >I thank you for sharing the material that you have in your two posts. > >It is most interesting and also it reveals that some of the >analysis is apparently very advanced in terms of such detail. I >notice that those who have considered cognition, receptivity of >ideas, and the generating of concepts have developed a technical >vocabulary that one would have to learn carefully before being >able to discuss at parity with them in their vocabulary. Yes, scientists think about the nature of reality in reductive, analytic terms--examining the particulars to explain the generality. Therefore, they cannot base their thinking on unproved fundamental truths or first principles--and thus, resort to labeling the physical properties of the things they speak of with technical jargon. Unfortunately, while this is fine when dealing with material things that can be codified and measured, it does not work with intangible ideas like consciousness and our inner world of mind and memory, which are entirely subjective. ------------------- Feb 4 2000 DTB TERMS LIKE "OBJECTIVE" AND SUBJECTIVE" are used commonly but I think that every consideration we make, every thought we have, moved by whatever motive is always SUBJECTIVE. All responses are made OBJECTIVE so that we may communicate. For instance, let me offer that which I am considering : Reading your letter places your thoughts into my mind and I clothe them with a modification of meaning somewhat different from yours. This is inevitable, and is the result of my habitual use and understanding of those words -- I then seek to adjust your statements (as ideas and pictures) with my concepts. All this is SUBJECTIVE. Looking at a sunset or the field of view of a microscope produces a SUBJECTIVE impression. To tell you about it is always OBJECTIVE. So in everything we do. We assume we understand people and in reality we understand what we paint them to be, based on their expressions. (If only we could communicate mind to mind !) Interiorly I (like all humans are) am a MIND. But I can also see that the MIND is only a link to the USER OF THE MIND, who is a separate being. This approach, involves the use of technical Theosophy, (using the definitions that H. P. Blavatsky offers in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY as an instance). Using those we might employ the following concepts as to the source of individual Consciousness: 1. ATMA (spirit or the One LIFE, Individualized in a human) -- considering it as a "ray" of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT that penetrates and is the eternal base of all manifested Nature}. ATMA (my Real Self) needs a link to the Mind. It is linked as a MONAD to an aspect of primordial matter termed BUDDHI. The MONAD (a unit of ATMA-BUDDHI, is to be found everywhere in Nature (it serves as the base for the "atoms" as well as the "Galaxies"). As it "journeys" through experience in the manifested Universe it acquires increments of Intelligence. This always developing immortal unit of Intelligence/Consciousness needs a further "principle" to serve it as a link with the many forms of manifested "matte" -- each such form being composed of innumerable MONADS, each in a condition of their own development which links them Karmically to the "Human Monad." Thus the MIND is generated and evolves. In humanity each Person masks the Individual behind and within it. The INDIVIDUAL ( Real man) is a triune MONAD consisting of Atma (spirit), Buddhi (Wisdom/discrimination) and Manas (mind). Of course you know this well and I only repeat this statement of the basics so that I make sure that we both know what emphasis I place on that which I am writing, and place here for consideration. 2. That link is the "BUDDHI" -- a "principle" which serves to unite the LIFE to the THOUGHT -- so that THOUGHT (Mind) may in turn employ the "personal mind of the embodied consciousness" -- which we are in daily waking consciousness, here and now. But BUDDHI is not just a link. It is also held to be the repository of eternal experience (it being held in metaphysics that the Individual, immortal portion of "Man," is a triune eternal being (the "Eternal Pilgrim" -- the triune MONAD. and that consists of ATMA (Spirit) - BUDDHI (Wisdom and discrimination) and MIND the power of the will (choice) to think. Thinking may be said to employ in its processes : "Correct Cognition, Misconception, Fancy, Unconsciousness (sleep), and Memory. [PATANJALI's YOGA SUTRAS, Tr. W. Q. Judge, p. 4] Atma is "subjective" to Buddhi. Buddhi is "subjective" to Manas. Manas is "subjective" to its representative: the "Lower Manas" which is the embodied consciousness of the "Personality." This Personal, Lower Mind is that which we use here and now and also it is that which is linked to its "parent," the MANAS -- the Intelligence aspect of the triune MONAD. dalval@nwc.net ============ REFERENCE YOURS ================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of LeonMaurer@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:31 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com SNIP -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 5 05:56:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id FAA21316 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:28:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: , Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: JCS: The brain: simple or complex Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:22:27 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf6fcb$4bd29780$220e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 5th 2000 Dear Friend: In this regard I note that the L A Times of Feb 1st published 2 articles: [ the pages of the Los Angeles TIMES are accessible at www.latimes.com ] 1. Regarding a news release from IBM showing that they are able to perceive and begin to use molecular level circuitry which is far smaller than any computer circuitry presently available, (Page A 1) and 2. In the Science File (Page B2) is given a description of the "Nano-world" of micro-circuitry and in the course of the article it is suggested that : "Nature has been a master of the nanotechnology for millions of years, and scientists like Smalley believe that much can be learned by looking at cells...They reached in their little world, a level of perfection...Nature, in the form of life, is the master craftsman..." There is of course a great more detail given but this is the core idea and observation. One need only ask that which Theosophy says is inherent, innate in this: "Who or what is the INTELLIGENCE that has designed this? and Who or what is the nature of the evolutionary development on the invisible planes that has actuated the molecular, perceivable world -- that has brought it into existence, and which has shaped it into uncountable units and universal structures that are inter-related and cooperative? Where, finally is that Intelligence to be found, if not EVERYWHERE ? What are its Laws -- if not those of universal and individual KARMA ? Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ======================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Behalf Of LeonMaurer@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:30 PM To: Subject: Theos-World Re: JCS: The brain: simple or complex In a message dated 2/2/0 7:03:36 PM, ... writes: >Leon Maurer's observation on Ray Scanlon's description of how the brain >functions: > >> Could we be getting a bit off track and failing to consider the dynamic >> observer-user-thinker-chooser who, blinded by this sort of materialistic >> and presumptive thinking, is not seeing the world or the sky for the forest >> and the trees?:-) > >This could be seen as characterising the meeting-point between free will >('I' am in control) with its antithesis ('I' am just the outcome of neural >processes)? If the latter proves to be correct, then the homunculus, what >Leon calls the observer-user-thinker-chooser, is just an abstraction I have >created to prop up my world. My personal view is that we may be entirely >stimulus-driven. For example, the same glass of water may be viewed quite >differently, depending on our metabolic state. If bright-eyed and >bushy-tailed of a morning, then half-full - if liverish and constipated, >then half-empty. The construction we put on things is in this case >viscerally derived. How can you, as if you were in total self control of your faculties, knowledge and wisdom, make these contradictory statements concluding that you might not be in such control? Coming from such a direction, what kind of credibility could your opinions have? Who's thinking and talking about this, you or your neurology? If we are entirely stimulus driven, who makes the decision to use aspirin, Tylenol or Ibuprofen when you feel you have a headache? > >I am suggesting that Libet's findings may have shown Willis Freeman to >be correct when he says that consciousness is "mopping up" afterwards... >consciousness has a role, but it is not to initiate action. It is to >prepare the self in the light of experience (p 722 JCS 5, No 5/6). >This raises the daunting possibility that all our thoughts and actions are >the outcome of amazingly complex neural interactions - the idea of being >in overall control may be just part of that process. Baloney. I'm amazed at how glib people are who, using their self determined individuality, self acquired knowledge, and self accepted preconceptions, self choose to continue promoting the possibility (using the flimsiest analogies, and based on their ignorance of the fundamental nature of consciousness, or even the basic Laws of Nature) -- that they are nothing more than slaves of their neural correlates. If, so, then who is the master and who is the slave who is mouthing such nonsense about himself? If it's the neural correlates that make the conscious decisions, who programmed their algorithms? If such loose thinkers could explain the mechanisms and cause of qualia, awareness and will with any sort of scientific and/or logical deduction, induction, thesis or synthesis, they might comprehend who and what they actually are... But they can't even come close to such an understanding, since physical oriented reductive science cannot reach past the limitations of matter and form, or the words and symbols representing their properties. They refuse to believe or understand that image information throughout Nature can be modulated, carried and transmitted solely by and through the wave nature of energy fields. Even a digital transformation of information is nothing but a linear series of analogous magnetic fields that ultimately define nonlinear wave patterns of holographic sensory pictures in the brain, mind and memory fields, accessible to our "inquiray" -- when willfully emanated from the zero-point center of conscious or unconscious awareness. When science can explain, in purely material terms, how a 3-D image is created in my mind and consciousness, and how, through what mechanisms, I can guide my hand to reproduce that image exactly on a piece of paper that is hidden from my view (which I could do prior to age 12), I might be prone to accept the view that consciousness (mind, memory), awareness and will are epiphenomena of the brain's neurology. As it is, however, it's much more logical to believe that everything in the universe is connected holistically, and proceeds from the simplicity of absolute abstract energy in the form of fundamental non-polar spin -- that ultimately squirts this universe in a spiral vortex out of its static zero-point center of awareness, into the vast complexity of multidimensional fields, within fields, within fields -- that begins in the close-to-infinite, immaterial and immeasurable, vibrational frequency orders of prior causative consciousness energies (such as universal mind, memory, awareness, and the source of will) -- and ends in the course grained, condensed fields of particulate mass-energy that compose our brains, bodies, and the outer self-experienced, material world formed around us. From this, we could easily assume that the brain and body are simply the optical-electrical-chemical-mechanical interface between our uniquitous zero-point originated transcendent awareness, will, memory and mind, and the outer world of food, water, air, shelter and other material amenities that surround us as more or less necessary aids to our survival and personal well being... But, all originating from the same source of fundamentally conscious primal "spinergy". It's also amazing that the promoters of materialism cannot realize, from pure observation alone, that it is far easier for a creative mind to manipulate the forms of matter, than it is for matter to manipulate itself, let alone minds or consciousness. So, which came first? The seer, or the seen? The image, or the construction? The thought-created designs and blueprints, or the flying airplane? To paraphrase Einstein, Why would God (assuming there is such a conscious entity) play dice with evolution by leaving it all to chance? Is the Universe and its inherent wisdom (based on it's past knowledge and experience stored as abstract patterns of energy flow lines in its initial spin, perhaps) less competent than we are (who have a long way to go to gain even a small part of such knowledge and wisdom)? I think not. And, I challenge all scientists to prove differently, or falsify the initial premises leading to such conclusions -- that brain, body and all other forms of matter are the product of consciousness, and ultimately, of universal Self awareness -- not the reverse. Incidentally, to save burdening the moderator with another post;-) -- it is pointless to argue with Scanlon's views, since he admittedly isn't a scientist or philosopher interested in working on the problem of explaining consciousness and its interrelationships with matter, but is only interested, apparently, in the mechanics of the brain. Therefore, he can take his narrow opposing space alongside all those who are interested only in the theology of their personal gods... Both believing that the real synthetic, multidisciplinary science of open minded searching for the meaning and explanation of ALL of Nature, its origins, its interactions, its forms, and its expressions -- without resort to either materialism or Gods -- be damned.... But, that's what I thought this forum was all about. (I'm sure there are several brain science forums that Scanlon could better spend his time arguing his narrow, epiphenomenal views that the TRN [thalamic reticular nucleus] is the sole source of consciousness [mind, memory], awareness and will in the Universe. If so, I wonder which one of us, having this marvelous organ in the first place, dreamed up, and planned the evolution of this intricately contrived Universe so as to give it to all of us.:-) Leon Maurer leonmaurer@aol.com (not the moderator) http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 5 06:22:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id FAA21332 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:29:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: Theos-World RE: Some Thoughts on the Theosophical Movement Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:22:51 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf6fcb$5ba2bfa0$220e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 5th 2000 Many thanks, Gerry, for the review of the situation of the various Theosophical bodies and their work. One ought to note that the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT is not confined to those, but transcends them all (they are the temporary constructs of our present era). THEOSOPHY as a statement of facts, as a name given to certain facts and principles of Nature, began many millions of years ago and will continue under the guidance of the Maters of Wisdom for millions to come. There is one platform on which all these disparate "Theosophical bodies" unite: it is the FIRST OBJECT. Brotherhood. Everything else is opinion. It is there that divisions arose, and this compares to what we know of the several philosophical schools of Gnosticism that sprang up some 2,000 years ago. Pythagoras used the word "theosophy" some 2,500 years ago. Ammonius Saccus revived the study of eclecticism and theosophy in Alexandria some 700 years later. Theosophy is essentially panspermic, and its study leads to a perception of the "inner life." This inner life is a recognition of the Higher Self in each -- the primitive, living Presence -- a "ray" from the Universal Spirit, the essential MONAD -- Atma-Buddhi within each human, and potential in every other being. What is the basis for our study and knowledge of Theosophy? It is for all of us a single point, the most recent "agent" for the Lodge of Adepts [ ISIS II 99-103, SD II 203-4 ] namely H. P. Blavatsky and her writings. Note that the Masters provided independently certificates regarding their oversight of and contributions to these . We also note that this current re-presentation of Theosophy (using the name again) is to be found to be in-line with the periodical restatements made by Wise Men and Sages, Prophets and Seers down the ages. ISIS UNVEILED and THE SECRET DOCTRINE outline this, and offer far more in the nature of information concerning the interactive and cooperative secrets of Nature than has ever been gathered exoterically before. The historical development that you trace since her death shows how opinions and interpretations have formed traditions. Those later students who have adopted and respect these, permitted (and permit) certain "filters" to modify their view of what HPB wrote and taught. The only adjustment is to go to her directly and study what she actually and originally wrote and said. To this end, photographic copies of the original editions of her books have been reprinted. It is those filters and those traditions that serve now as separation. But it is also to be noted that any of the direct students of HPB in those theosophical bodies of students -- those who make HPB and her writings their base -- are in fair agreement with each other and have a mutual, a common understanding, of what the original teachings of Theosophy are. They transcend the barriers of "membership." they are united in mind, in thought and in work. In this there is no "stagnation," unless it is the general observation that there are many who have an intuitive feeling for the value of Theosophy, and who do not exert themselves to take their individual study deeper and applications wider and more intense. The work of promulgation is important as a duty and a responsibility of those who have received so much. There are newcomers who deserve to meet with the same opportunities we have had, and then, to profit from them through their own efforts as we have. We are the ones who ought to make those available. This cannot be forced, but the opportunity to study and to compare is to be made widely. That it is profited from, is apparent from the many contributions received and the growing readership that can be noticed in the various foci of student exchange that are now in existence on the Internet, and among those who subscribe to the various Theosophical Magazines and periodicals, or, who visit and participate in Lodge studies, and ask questions or make contributions. The multiplication of local centers is essential to this aspect of the work. Doors and widows can be kept open. The principle is that each student makes his own curriculum and devotes what time he decides to his own progress. "Membership" confers no special benefit or privilege to anyone. But the main effort is always that of such students, devotees, and inquirers who come to find out if Theosophy is reasonable, accurate, fair -- and a depiction of the laws and facts of Nature in her most secret aspects, as well as those which can be more easily seen in operation. The 3 Fundamentals (God - Law - Beings in Evolution) are at the base of this teaching. Then to those can be added information about the 3 Planes of Life (Spirit - Soul-Mind, and - Matter-forms). These mark the existing broad definitions of Nature's planes of interaction. In her THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB adds to these Universal Causality as a basis for all manifestation and evolution, and this process is supported and made operative by Karma and Reincarnation. To this she adds the fact that the whole of Nature is alive, and uncountable numbers of Intelligent beings (from the atoms to the stars -- MONADS ) compose its many levels and phases of interactive existence. These Monads are the immortals and eternal Pilgrims that proceed endlessly through the progressive phases of life and learning -- they are the eternal students. Each life is a day in school and as the Monads progress, increments in intelligence, responsibility and consciousness become theirs to use and to exercise as virtues, gifts, due to their brothers. Add to this the fact that each Human has inherently an immortal Consciousness, and all the doctrines of Theosophy can be derived from these concepts. Thus the differences can be seen to disappear -- opinions are resolved in a friendly grasp of principles and the avenues of mutual application and cooperation are restored. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ============================ -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 11:24 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Some Thoughts on the Theosophical Movement Some Thoughts on the Theosophical Movement by Gerald Schueler There has been much talk on the Internet recently about Theosophists, neo-Theosophists, students of theosophy, the various Theosophical organizations and leaders, and so on. Shortly after H. P. Blavatsky's death, her Theosophical Society split into two groups, and many more splits followed over the years. For a society that highlights "universal brotherhood" this irrational behavior of fellow Theosophists and Theosophical Societies seems bazaar to most outsiders and to many insiders as well. In all cases, the divisions were partially caused by simple personality conflicts. In this sense, the Theosophical divisiveness could be explained simply as human nature manifesting itself within human organizations. But in virtually every case, and especially with regard to the first split into what is now known as the Pasadena TS, the real issues were more than just personality conflicts albeit these were evident. The majority at the time, and many even today, saw real and important differences in what Theosophy was supposed to be, and in how the Theosophical Society in particular was to function. Most today would likely agree that it was largely a matter of emphasis and that, yes, both groups follow the same Objectives and, yes, both insist on universal brotherhood. Probably the most fundamental organizational difference between Adyar (the Besant - Leadbeater branch) and Pasadena (the Judge branch) is that Adyar is democratic while Pasadena is autocratic. Adyar is structured and managed like any other modern democratic organization. Pasadena is structured and managed in a way that resembles the ancient mystery schools. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but the difference itself trickles down to the most mundane levels as to how things get done. Because Wheaton officials are elected, politics inevitably influences many organizational decisions. This causes conflict among members. Because Pasadena officials are appointed, and the Leader is appointed for life, there is little politics but also little conflict. Conflict is a form of chaos, and we now know that out of chaos comes new order. A little conflict in organizations has been shown to produce inventiveness and creativity. Too much conflict is a death sentence. Too little tends toward stagnation. This has been clearly demonstrated in the modern Theosophical Movement, where conflict has resulted in new Theosophical Societies. It is also apparent on the Internet where unmoderated Theosophical discussion groups beget heated arguments where sometime new ideas are produced, while moderated groups tend to stagnate in the status quo. What is Theosophy? What are the key functions or central mission of the Theosophical Society? These questions have been hotly debated on the Internet, and today remain without consensus. It can be argued that Theosophy can be defined as a philosophical movement, or a religion, or a doctrinal body of writings, or a process. To some, it is all of these. It can be argued that the central mission of the Theosophical Society is to preserve the basic writings of the original founders, or to promote the "core teachings" within the general public, or to instill a sense of universal brotherhood within our fellow human beings, or to investigate "occult" laws, or to explain in more simple words the profound teachings of Blavatsky and her Masters. To some, it is all of these. While the word "theosophy" implies "wisdom of the gods" and is far older than Blavatsky's organization, the modern Theosophical Movement is credited to her work and she is equated with Theosophy by the general public. We cannot justify, and probably should not even try, separating Blavatsky from Theosophy. But what is Theosophy? When we look at the so-called "core teachings" given to us by Blavatsky and her Masters, we find teachings on a wide variety of subjects and deliberately presented on many different levels. William Quan Judge, one of the original founders, wrote that Theosophy is like a vast ocean. It has such a deep level of profundity that parts of it will remain a mystery to most of us, while having such shallowness along its shores that even a child can understand it. Blavatsky explained this in terms of exoteric (the head doctrine, understandable to the human mind) and esoteric (the heart doctrine, understandable only to direct experience or Gnosis) knowledge. So we have two of the original founders, and probably the most prolific Theosophical writers, agreeing that Theosophy is graded with levels ranging from easily understood concepts all the way to profound inner spiritual experiences where words of explanation don't exist and language itself fails us. This graded knowledge was presented in modern times in much the same fashion that the teachings of the ancient mystery schools were said to have been taught. Is it any wonder, then, that Theosophists over the years have become divisive over just what Theosophy is, or in how best to promote it? It is easy to blame the first major split on Besant and Leadbeater or on Judge, and this is exactly what many have done and still do today. Judge and Besant simply had a personality conflict, and Judge didn't like where Besant and Leadbeater were taking the society so he broke away to form his own. Similarly, Besant and Leadbeater didn't care much for Judge who kept getting letters from the Masters after Blavatsky's death, and so on, and they were glad to see him go. These arguments have some truth, but it is a lot like the shores around the ocean - an easy-to-understand reason, but likely not the whole truth. The next major split in the Theosophical Society was by Crosby who left Kathrine Tingley's drama presentations to found the ULT. He was apparently fed up with personalities and tried to avoid them altogether. But probably the most controversial split after the Judge defection, was the Conyers and Long episode that split Judge's organization even more than Crosby's defection. This followed the move from Point Loma initiated by de Purucker. The rest, as they say, is history. Trying to place Theosophical history into perspective shows us some interesting things. The democratic Adyar society has remained in relative stability following the Krishnamurti affair, with most of its internal conflicts addressed periodically through politics and the ballot box. The autocratic society formed by Judge was never really without internal conflict. It addressed its internal conflicts by periodically dividing into splinter organizations - the only real way for an autocratic organization to handle such conflict and one that likely bedeviled the ancient mystery schools as well. With the foregoing in mind, it seems likely that conflict and divisiveness will continue, although as membership continues to shrink it probably won't be as noticeable. These are hard times for the Theosophical Societies. On a much more expanded time scale, there is yet another purpose for the Theosophical Society that is well known but seldom discussed. This is the purpose of serving as a psycho-spiritual magnet for the seeds of the next root-race, the sixth of this fourth Round. According to Blavatsky, the seeds of the sixth root-race should be showing up in the west very soon. Some equate "west" with America. Some see it as California. With the inception of the Internet, the physical location is probably no longer a concern. However we may perceive the details, the broad brush view is that the Theosophy Society must promote its doctrinal ideas out into the public in hopes of stirring those "seeds" into some kind of fruition. Either that, or look within to its own membership for such seeds. There is a legitimate question being asked today as to whether any of the Theosophical Societies would even recognize such sixth-root seeds when, and if, they appeared on their doorsteps let alone welcome them in. Assuming that they will, this purpose remains one of the most powerful in the drive for organizational survival. One thing seems certain as the Theosophical Movement enters a new century. The new seeds of the sixth-root-race will introduce new ideas - ideas that Blavatsky and her Masters either deliberately ignored or did not know about. These ideas must not gainsay her message, but rather should be expected to enhance it. Where Blavatsky discussed and described the Theosophical shoreline, these folks can be expected to espouse what they find in the depths, and are likely to coin new words for their descriptions. It will be interesting to see if they are recognized as new messengers from the White Lodge, or labeled neo-theosophists or post-neo-theosophists and ignored. Only time will tell. Blavatsky admitted that she withheld material from publication. Furthermore, there would logically be no need for new messengers if the depths of the Theosophical ocean have already been plumbed. In fact, Blavatsky predicted that a new messenger would arrive during the last quarter of the 20th century. If so, no Theosophical Society has recognized him or her. In order to prepare for the next root-race and to continue the Theosophical Movement, there must be some degree of acceptance of new ideas within the hearts and souls of Theosophists. Without new ideas, or new words for old ideas, the Theosophical Movement will stagnate and could die. The challenge is that it is not enough to describe the shoreline ad nauseum. The depths themselves must be explored, put into words, and shared with others if the Theosophical Movement is to flourish during the next century. --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: DALVAL@NWC.NET List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-539B@list.vnet.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 6 08:43:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA10946 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:41:01 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: DTB = M [bn-basic] On "Adepts" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:34:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf70af$4ecb5780$2b0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 6th 2000 Dear Mauri: Your comments and queries on Adepts (seen below) seem to show that you might like to read some words that earlier students of Theosophy had to offer on this important subject. There are many concepts to consider. Let me introduce them here: The word "Mahatma" or "great Soul" is often used. One may wonder how a "soul" becomes great: Mr. Judge observes: "A visitor from one of the other planets of the solar system who might learn the term Mahatma after arriving here would certainly suppose that the etymology of the word undoubtedly inspired the believers in Mahatmas with the devotion, fearlessness, hope, and energy which such an ideal should arouse in those who have the welfare of the human race at heart...The whole sweep, meaning, and possibility of evolution are contained in the word Mahatma. Maha is "great," Atma is "soul," and both compounded into one mean those great souls who have triumphed before us not because they are made of different stuff and are of some strange family, but just because they are of the human race. Reincarnation, karma, the sevenfold division, retribution, reward, struggle, failure, success, illumination, power, and a vast embracing love for man, all these lie in that single word. The soul emerges from the unknown, begins to work in and with matter, is reborn again and again, makes karma, develops the 6 vehicles for itself, meets retribution for sin and punishment for mistake, grows strong by suffering, succeeds in bursting through the gloom, is enlightened by true illumination, grasps power, retains charity, expands with love for orphaned humanity, and thenceforth helps all others who remain in darkness until all may be raised up to the place with the "Father in Heaven" who is the Higher Self." WQJ -- ARTICLES. Vol. II, p. 39-40 There is in Theosophy the concept that each "soul" is a Monad. And the Monad is a unit of Spirit and Matter (or ATMA and BUDDHI eternally conjoined to Manas -- the "mind --or, "soul."). There is also the concept that in each human being there is an aspect of the Universal Spirit, which, being everywhere, is closest to him in his own innermost Nature -- it is his "secret Self." Also, it has been called the Spiritual Star of the Soul. Here is a quotation that supports this: "...every class of adept has its own bond of spiritual communion...by bringing oneself within the influence of the Spiritual light which radiates from one's own Logos... such communion is only possible between persons whose souls derive their life and sustenance from the same divine RAY, and that, as seven distinct rays radiate from the 'Central Spiritual Sun,' all adepts and Dhyan Chohans are divisible into seven classes, each of which is guided, controlled, and overshadowed by one of the seven forms or manifestations of the divine Wisdom." S Row quoted by HPB, SD I 574. It is therefore considered that there is in the Universe, One Source: and 7 Aspects, or the Primary Rays of that Self that serve as the basis for all manifestation. This is metaphysics, but the concept and philosophical base is ancient. Consider this, even though it is very technically expressed: "The divine, purely Adi-Buddhic [PRIMORDIAL and UNIVERSAL] monad manifests as the universal Buddhi (the Mahabuddhi or Mahat [UNIVERSAL MIND]...) the spiritual omniscient and omnipotent root of divine intelligence, the highest anima mundi or the Logos. This descends "like a flame spreading from the eternal Fire, immovable...ever the same to the end" of the cycle of existence, and becomes universal life on the Mundane Plane. From this Plane (the logoi of Life); then the Dhyani-Buddhas of contemplation; the concrete forms of their formless Fathers -- the Seven Sons of Light, still themselves, ... "Thou art 'THAT' -- Brahm." It is from these Dhyani-Buddhas that emanate their chhayas (Shadows) the Bodhisattvas, and of the terrestrial Buddhas, and finally of men. The "Seven Sons of Light" are also called "Stars." The Secret Doctrine then adds concerning each of us, humans: "The star under which a human Entity is born, says the Occult teaching, will remain for ever its star, throughout the whole cycle of its incarnations in one Manvantara. But this is not his astrological star. The latter is concerned and connected with the personality, the former with the INDIVIDUALITY. The "Angel" of that Star, or the Dhyani-Buddha will be either the guiding or simply the presiding "Angel," so to say, in every new rebirth of the monad, which is part of its own essence. though his vehicle, man, may remain for ever ignorant of this fact. The adepts have each their Dhyani-Buddha, their elder "twin Soul," and they know it, calling it "Father-Soul," and "Father-Fire." ... The Logos, or both the unmanifested and the manifest-ed WORD, is called by the Hindus, Iswara...the highest conscious-ness in nature.. There are seven chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans, which groups will be found and recognized in every religion, for they are the primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity...is divided into seven distinct groups and their sub-divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical * [ Fn.:-- Hence the 7 chief planets, the spheres of the indwelling 7 spirits, under each of which is born one of the human groups which is guided and influenced thereby. There are only 7 planets (specially connected with earth), and 12 houses, but the possible combinations of their aspects are countless. ... as infinite as the spiritual, psychic, mental, and physical capacities in the numberless varieties-ties of the genus homo, each of which...is born under on of the 7 planets and one of the said countless planetary combinations. See Theosophist for August l886]" S. D. VOL. I, p. 572-3 It is also claimed that it is possible to attune our minds to the Seven Chords represented above: "... Whenever you are able to attune your consciousness to any of the seven chords of 'Universal Consciousness,' those chords that run along the sounding-board of Kosmos, vibrating from one Eternity to another; when you have studied thoroughly 'the music of the Spheres," then only will you become quite free to share your knowledge with those with whom it is safe to do so... Do not give out the great Truths that are the inheritance of the future Races, to our present generation. Do not attempt to unveil the secret of being and non-being to those unable to see the hidden meaning of Apollo's HEPTACHORD--the lyre of the radiant god, in each of the seven strings of which dwelleth the Spirit, Soul and Astral body of the Kosmos, whose shell only has now fallen into the hands of Modern Science..." S D I 167 Thus you will find that degrees of progress are taken for granted as man's knowledge and capacity to live productively in the external world, he may in time graduate to the higher levels of responsibility which are designated in past systems, for instance, as : ARAHAT (Sk.) Also...Arhat, Arhan, Rahat, etc., "the worthy one," lit. "deserving divine honors"...first given to the Jain and subsequently to the Buddhist holy men initiated into the esoteric mysteries. The Arhat is one who has entered the best and highest path, and is thus emancipated from re-berth." (Theos. GLOS. 28) And the term ALAYA (Sk.) The Universal Soul (See SD I 47, GLOS. 14 ought to be grasped: "Alaya is literally the "Soul of the World" or Anima Mundi, the "Over-Soul" of Emerson, and according to esoteric teaching it changes periodically its nature. Alaya though eternal and changeless in its inner essence on the planes which are unreachable by either men of Cosmic Gods (Dhyani Buddhas), alters during the active life-period with respect to the lower planes, ours included. During that time not only the Dhyani-Buddhas are one with Alaya in Soul and Essence, but even the man strong in the Yoga(mystic meditation) "is able to merge his soul with it" (Aryasangha, the Bumapa school). This is not Nirvana, but a condition next to it. Hence the disagreement. Thus, while the Yogacharyas (of the Mahayana school) say that Alaya is the personification of the Voidness, and yet Alaya (Nyingpo and Tsang in Tibetan) is the basis of every visible and invisible thing, and that, though it is eternal and immutable in its essence, it reflects itself in every object of the Universe "like the moon in clear tranquil water;" other schools dispute the statement. The same for Paramartha..." SD I 47 Here are some more terms -- not to confuse, but which later will be used - to give you an idea of the way in which this important subject ramifies through Nature. BHIKSHU (Sk.) In Pali Bhikku. the first followers of Sakyamuni Buddha ... "mendicant scholar"... 2 classes: Sramanas ... esoteric mendicants who control their nature by the (religious) law, and exoteric mendicants who control their nature by diet..." GLOS 56 SRAMANA (Sk.) Buddhist priests, ascetics and postulants for Nirvana, "they who have to place a restraint on their thoughts." GLOS 307 MAHATMA (Sk.) Lit., "great soul." An adept of the highest order. Exalted beings who, having attained to the mastery over their lower principles are thus living unimpeded by the "man of flesh," and are in possession of knowledge and power commensurate with the stage they have reached in their spiritual evolution. Called in Pali Rahats and Arhats." GLOS 201 MAHAYANA (Pal.) A school: lit. "the great vehicle." A mystical system founded by Nagarjuna. Its books were written in the 2nd cent. A.D." GLOS 201-2 NAGARJUNA (Sk.) An Arhat, a hermit (a native of Western India) converted to Buddhism by Kapimala...famous for his dialectical subtlety in metaphysical arguments; and was the first teacher of the Amitabha doctrine and a representative of the Mahayana School. Viewed as the greatest philosopher of the Buddhists, he was referred to as "one of the four suns which illumine the world." He was born 223 BC, and going to China after his conversion converted in his turn the whole country to Buddhism." (THY MAG 24-271) GLOS 223 PATANJALI (Sk.) founder of the Yoga philosophy....Occultists [assign his date] nearer to 700 than 600 BC...a contemporary of Panini." Glos, 251 PANINI (Sk.) celebrated grammarian, author of...Paniniyama; a Rishi, supposed to have received his work from the god Siva ...600BC" GLOS 248 In regard to Initiation it is said: "The degrees of an Adept's initiation mark the seven stages at which he discovers the secret of the sevenfold principles in nature and man and awakens his dormant powers." M.L. 99 All true Adept live to serve the world. The concept is that this is a vast cooperative Universe and each one of us occupies a necessary position in it and can serve voluntarily as an assistant to the progress of others and of ourselves. the idea is that any service offered to another enhances our own level of progress. We are all immortals (as Monads) and so we are going to be running into one another frequently. The idea of friendship, service and brotherhood is built into this. We don't have to elbow other out of the way, as Karma always provides adequate "living space" for all. This is expressed as : "[The Adept]...serves humanity and identifies himself with the whole world; he is ready to make vicarious sacrifice for it at any moment--by living not by dying for it. Why should he not die for it? Because he is part of the whole, and one of the most valuable parts of it. Because he lives under laws of order which he does not desire to break. His life is not his own, but that of the forces which work behind him. He is the flower of humanity, the bloom which contains the divine seed. He is, in his own person, a treasure of the universal nature. which is guarded and made safe in order that the fruition shall be perfected. It is only at definite periods of the world's history that he is al-lowed to go among the herd of men as their redeemer." LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 72-3 The question is often asked: Where are the Adepts ? Are they near or far? Do they "watch" over us, or do they stay so far that they have no actual contact with our struggles? and so on... Let us wee what was written: "Through all time the wise men have lived apart from the mass. That the chief body of these wise ones should be understood to dwell beyond the fastnesses of the Himalayas...p. 70 ] And even when some temporary purpose or object induces one of them to come into the midst of human life, his seclusion and safety is preserved as completely as ever... they are only known as mystics by those who have the power to recognize; the power given by the conquering of self. Otherwise how could they exist, even for an hour, in such a mental and psychic atmosphere as is created by the confusion and disorder of a city ? Unless protected and made safe their own growth would be interfered with, their work injured. And the neophyte may meet an adept in the flesh, may live in the same house with him, and yet be unable to recognize him, and unable to make his own voice heard by him... No voice penetrates to his inner hearing till it has become a divine voice, a voice which gives no utterance to the cries of self... Until a man has become, in heart and spirit a disciple, he has no existence for those who are teachers of disciples. And he becomes this by one method only--the surrender of his personal humanity." L ON P p. 74-5 One of the Masters of Wisdom wrote: "If, for generations we have "shut out the world from the Knowledge of our Knowledge," it is on account of its absolute unfitness; and if, notwithstanding proofs given, it still refuses yielding to evidence, then will we at the End of this cycle retire into solitude and our kingdom of silence once more...We have offered to exhume the primeval strata of man's being, his basic nature, and lay bare the wonderful complications or his inner Self...and demonstrate it scientifically...It is our mission to plunge and bring the pearls of Truth to the surface...For countless generations hath the adept builded a fane of imperishable rocks, a giant's Tower of Infinite Thought, wherein the Titan dwelt, and will yet, if need be, dwell alone, emerging from it but at the end of every cycle, to invite the elect of mankind to cooperate with him and help in his turn enlighten superstitious man. And we will go on in that periodical work of ours; we will not allow ourselves to be baffled in our philanthropic attempts until that day when the foundations of a new continent of thought are so firmly built that no amount of opposition and ignorant malice guided by the Brethren of the Shadow will be found to prevail." M L p. 50-1 Passing then, from this consideration, one might ask about the state of harmony of the Adept and of the disciples, called the Chelas. and answer is provided in: "...an adept may be compared to that one key which contains all the keys in the great harmony of nature. He has the synthesis of all keys in his thoughts, whereas the ordinary man has the same key as a basis, but only acts and thinks on one or a few changes of this great key, producing in his brain only a few chords out of the whole great possible harmony...the brain of the chela is attuned by training to the brain of the Master. His vibrations synchronize with those of the Adept...so the chela's brain is abnormal...the adept sees all the colors in every color and yet does not confuse them together...the highest adepts [ have raised their vibrations so as to have them the same as those of nature as a whole ]...He can produce a sound which will alter a color. It is the sound which produces the color, and not the other or opposite. By correlating the vibrations of a sound in the proper way a new color is made...on the astral plane every sound always produces a color...these are invisible because not yet correlated by the human brain so as to become visible on the earth plane....His astral senses may see the true color, but the physical eye has its own vibrations, and these, being on the outer plane, overcome the others for the time, and the astral man is compelled to report to the brain that it saw correctly. For in each case the outer stimulus is sent to the inner man, who then is forced, as it were, to accept the message and to confirm it for the time so far as it goes. But there are cases where the inner man is able to even then overcome the outer defect and to make the brain see the difference...." WQJ ARTICLES, Vol. I, p. 423-426. Let us also consider something about the process of becoming a chela, and from that step, to eventually becoming an Adept. Thinking about this and our daily living one is able to see that all our lives we are confronted in our "inner private life" with a series of daily and hourly initiations. Not everyone is aware of this. Consider that during the period when we went to school we were not told and yet imperceptibly we were under the tests of daily life in the education environment. This does not come to an end, but continues today, and it has been so for all our many lives. "It is supposed by some that initiation is always and in every case a set and solemn occasion for which the candidate is prepared and notified in advance. While there are some initiations surrounded by such solemnities as these, the daily one, without success in which no aspirant will ever have the chance to try for those that are higher, comes to the disciple with almost each moment. It is met in our relations with our fellows, and in the effects upon us of all the circumstances of life. And if we fail in these, we never get to the point where greater ones are offered. If we cannot bear momentary defeat, or if a chance word that strikes our self-love finds us unprepared, or if we give way to the desire to harshly judge others, or if we remain in ignorance of some of our most apparent faults, we do not build up that knowledge and strength imperatively demanded from whoever is to be master of nature." WQJ ART II 497-8 In other words we are constantly faced with moments of choice. This is covered in the following : "It is in the life of every one to have a moment of choice, but that moment is not set for any particular day. It is the sum total of all days; and it may be put off until the day of death, and then it is beyond our power, for the choice has been fixed by all the acts and thoughts of the lifetime. We are self-doomed at that hour to just the sort of life, body, environment, and tendencies which will best carry out our karma. This is a thing solemn enough, and one that makes the "daily initiation" of the very greatest importance to each earnest student." WQJ ART II 497-8 One gradually becomes aware that in Theosophical philosophy it is held that our universe is one in which all beings are conscious. and the measure of progress is of the level of consciousness that we can use. This relates to the Adepts and the Initiates; it was written: "That High Spirits work on Earth in bodies of men, while those spirits are still in the highest spheres [ see SD I 233-4 &fn, 235fn ]...it is clearly explained that the author [HPB] does not mean that which is called among the spiritualists "control" of mediums by a spirit, but the actual continuance of the status and functions of the incarnated spirit in the supersensuous regions, while actually using as its own and working in a mortal envelope on earth. So that, according to her, there are certain persons on this earth, living and working as ordinary human beings and members of society. whose informing divine part is so immeasurably high in development that they as such high beings have a definite status and function in the "supersensuous regions." We should say...that she herself was such a case, and that "H.P.B.," whether hourly in the day and night when all around was still, had a status and functions" in their spheres where she consciously carried on the work of that high station, whatever it was. There were many events in her daily life known to those who were intimate with her that this hint may reveal, or at least shed much light upon. And in one of her letters the sentence appears--in substance--"The difference between you and me is that you are not conscious except at day, while I am conscious day and night, and have much to do and to endure in both of these existences from which you, being thus half-conscious, are happily saved." In the Hindu books and teachings there is a reference to this when the speak of high gnanees--that is, persons full of knowledge and spiritual power--being attracted to this earth by certain acts and at certain times in the history of nation, race or city." ("Hidden Hints in the S. D." WQJ Articles, I p. 615-6) "If it is true that "the whole universe is an aggregate of states of consciousness," it would seem to follow that the real difference between one who is an initiate and one who is not lies in the fact that the former looks at all things from a totally different stand point to the majority of men...that he is on a higher plane of consciousness altogether. If such a higher plane has been attained, it will follow that his whole range of ideas will differ from that of others and he will be sensible of the operation of causes of a more far-reaching character than those cognized by others. He will be as it were in the possession of higher and superior information and so will be able to form juster conclusions and this fact alone will give him enormous power." T A & N 60 "The action of the entire universe is but a detailed manifestation and example of the action of mind on matter, governed at the highest point by the action of the universal mind. Between the finite human mind of the ordinary uninitiated individual and this universal mind lie an infinite number of gradually ascending degrees, and the higher the plane of consciousness the nearer is the approach to the universal mind which is, as it were, the mainspring of the whole." --"Alpha" THEOS ART & NOTES, p. 60-1 Let us to this by observing that the whole Universe is sentient and like a gigantic human it has a brain" which is may be said to be functional along the following lines: "Occult philosophy reconciles the absurdity of postulating in the manifested Universe an active Mind without an organ, with that worse absurdity, an objective Universe evolved as everything else in it, by blind chance, by giving to this Universe an organ of thought, a "brain." The latter, although not objective to our senses, is nonetheless existing; it is to be found in the Entity called Kosmos (Adam Kadmon, in the Kabala)." "As in the Microcosm, Man, so in the Macrocosm, of the Universe. Every "organ" in it is a sentient entity, and every particle of matter or substance, from the physical molecule up to the spiritual atom, is a cell, a nerve center, which communicates." T A & N 208 This discussion brings us back to one of the main points we spoke of at the outset: Man's Inner Self the Real Ego, or the Monad (Atma-Buddhi) is a ray of the Universal Mind. "This is precisely what occult philosophy claims: our Ego is a ray of the Universal Mind, individualized for the space of a cosmic life-cycle, during which space of time it gets experience in almost numberless reincarnations or rebirths, after which it returns to its Parent-Source. "The Occultist would call the "Higher Ego" the immortal Entity, whose shadow and reflection is the human Manas, the mind, limited by its physical senses. The two may be well compared to the Master-artist and the pupil-musician. "In the course of natural evolution our "brain-mind" will be replaced by a finer organism, and helped by the 6th and the 7th senses. "The "sensing principle" in us is an entity capable of acting outside as inside its material body; and it is certainly independent of any organ in particular, in its actions, although during its incarnation it manifests itself through its physical organs. T A & N 208-9 But, one may ask, How is it possible to remember all these details? Here is a philosophy that truly makes one's mind spin. It demands a study of the history of philosophy and religions which rarely anyone has to do. Furthermore, where can we store the memory of all this information? There is an interesting statement that seems to provide an answer to this: "Our "memory" is but a general agent, and its "tablets," with their indelible impressions, but a figure of speech; the "brain-tablets" serve only as a upadhi or a vahan (basis or vehicle) for reflecting at a given moment the memory of one or another thing. The records of past events, of even minutest action, and of passing thoughts, in fact, are really impressed on the imperishable waves of the ASTRAL LIGHT, around us and every-where, not in the brain alone; and these mental pictures, images, and sounds, pass from these waves via the consciousness of the personal Ego or Mind (the lower Manas) whose grosser essence is astral, into the "cerebral reflectors," so to say, or our brain, whence they are delivered by the psychic to the sensuous consciousness. This at every moment of the day, and even during sleep." HPB (Footnote in Lucifer -- THEOS ART & NOTES, p. 208-9) "..."Mind" is manas, or rather its lower reflection, which whenever it disconnects itself, for the time being, with kama, becomes the guide of the highest mental faculties, and is the organ of the free-will in physical man...." (HPB ARTICLES, Vol. II, p. 13) "Mankind usually receives a thousand impressions through the senses to one through the spiritual nature. Adeptship means reversing the proportion." -- H.S.Olcott (PATH 3, 109) Mr. Judge writes about HPB and her work and calls her an Adept living and working in our world. he wrote: "In 1875, in the City of New York, I first met H.P.B. in this life...It was her eye that attracted me, the eye of one whom I must have known in lives long passed away. She looked at me in recognition at that first hour, and never since has that look changed...Not as a questioner of philosophies did I come before her...but as one, wandering many periods through the corridors of life, was seeking the friends who could show where the designs for the work had been hidden. And true to the call she responded, revealing the plans once again, and speaking no words to explain, simply pointed then out and went on with the task. It was as if but the evening before we had parted, leaving yet to be done some detail of a task taken up with one common end; it was teacher and pupil, elder brother and younger, both bent on the one single end, but she with the power and the knowledge that belong but to lions and sages. Others I know have looked with suspicion on an appearance they could not fathom, and though it is true they adduce many proofs which hugged to the breast, would damn sages and gods, yet it is only through blindness they failed to see the lion's glance, the diamond heart of H.P.B...she was laying down the lines of force all over the land... The explanation has been offered by some too anxious friends that the earlier phenomena were mistakes in judgment, attempted to be rectified in later years by confining their area and limit-ing their number, but...I shall hold to her own explanation made in advance and never changed. That I have given above. For it is easier to take refuge behind a charge of bad judgment than to understand the strange and powerful laws which control in matters such as these. Amid all the turmoil of her life, above all the din produced by those who charged her with deceit and fraud and others who defended, while month after month, and year after year, witnessed men and women entering the theosophical movement only to leave it soon with malignant phrases for H.P.B., there stands a fact we all might consider--devotion absolute to her Master. "It was He," she writes, "who told me to devote myself to this, and I will never disobey and never turn back."... Willing in the service of the cause to offer up hope, money, reputation, life itself, provided the Society might be saved from every hurt, whether small or great. And thus bound body and soul to this entity called the T. S., bound to protect it at all hazards, and in the face of every loss, she often incurred the resentment of many who became her friends but would not always care for the infant organization as she had sworn to do. And when they acted as it opposed to the Society, her instant opposition seemed to them to nullify professions of friendship. Thus she had but few friends, for it required a keen insight, untinged with personal feeling, to see even a small part of the real H.P.Blavatsky... She worked under directors who, operating from behind the scene, knew that the T. S. was, and was to be, the nucleus from which help might be spread to all the people of the day, without thanks and without acknowledgment...I asked her what was the chance of drawing people into the Society...she said:--"When you consider those days in 1875 and after, in which you could not find any people interested in your thoughts, and now look at the wide-spreading influence of theosophical ideas--however labeled-- it is not so bad. We are not working that people may call them-selves Theosophists, but that the doctrines we cherish may affect and leaven the whole mind of this century. This alone can be accomplished by a small earnest band of workers, who work for no human reward, no earthly recognition, but who, supported and sustained by a belief in that Universal Brotherhood of which our Masters are a part, work steadily, faithfully, in understanding and putting forth for consideration the doctrines of life and duty that have come down to us from immemorial time. Falter not so long as a few devoted ones will work to keep the nucleus existing. You were not directed to found and realise a Universal Brotherhood, but to form the nucleus for one; for it is only when the nucleus it formed that the accumulations can begin that will end in future years, however far, in the formation of that body which we have in view." H.P.B. had a lion heart, and on the work traced out for her she had a lion's grasp, let us...sustain ourselves in carrying out the designs laid down on the trestle-board, by the memory of her devotion and the consciousness that behind her task stood, and still remain, those Elder Brothers who, above the clatter and the din of our battle, ever see the end and direct the forces distributed in array for the salvation of "that great orphan--Humanity." W. Q. Judge (Yours till Death and After, H.P.B..." Judge Articles, II p. 1) "...in 1875 she told me that she was then embarking on a work that would draw upon her unmerited slander, implacable malice, uninterrupted misunderstanding, constant work, and no worldly reward. Yet in the face of this her lion heart carried her on...Much has been said of her "phenomena," some denying them, others alleging trick and device. Knowing her for so many years so well, and having seen at her hands in private the production of more and more varied phenomena that it has been the good fortune of all others of her friends put together to seem I know for myself that she had control of hidden powerful laws of nature not known to our science, and I also know that she never boasted of her powers, never advertised their possession, never publicly advised anyone to attempt their acquirement, but always turned the eyes of those who could understand her to a life of altruism based on a knowledge of true philosophy. If the world thinks that her days were spent in deluding her followers by pretended phenomena, it is solely because her injudicious friends, against her expressed wish, gave out wonderful stories of her "miracles" which can not be proved to a skeptical public and which are not the aim of the Society nor were ever more than mere incidents in the life of H.P.Blavatsky. Her aim was to elevate the race. Her method was to deal with the mind of the century as she found it, by trying to lead it on step by step; to seek out and educate a few who, appreciating the majesty of the Secret Science and devoted to "the great orphan Humanity," could carry on her work with zeal and wisdom; to found a Society whose efforts--however small itself might be--would inject into the thought of the day the ideas, the doctrines, the nomenclature of the Wisdom Religion, so that when the next century shall have seen its 75th years the new messenger coming again into the world would find the Society still at work, the ideas sown broadcast, the nomenclature ready to give expression and body to the immutable truth, and thus to make easy the task which for her since 1875 was so difficult and so encompassed with obstacles in the very paucity of the language--obstacles harder than all else to work against." W. Q. Judge ( "H.P.B.--A Lion-hearted Colleague Passes" WQJ Articles II p. 5) I trust that this may prove to be of use in this regard. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ==================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:25 PM Subject: [bn-basic] Re: "Adepts" & Adepts Dennis: Your response on whether and how an Adept might reply to a question posed by someone (as by a list writer/s) surprised me in that I was under the impression that the Adepts were . . . well, in hiding, or too advanced to even be here on this earth plane since, aside from HPB’s mention of Koot Humi and ? whoever, few of the current writers (if any?) have recounted any kind of communications with Adepts (that I know of, at any rate.) So it seems that my notions about "Adepts" have been a little off, on a tangent, to say the least. And since you, Dennis, use parentheses on the word "Adept," you seem to be saying that the term is open to interpretation. To what extent? Are you saying that an Adept is anybody who is particularly adept at something, (to what extent, and in what way?) thereby earning the capital A? Looking in a theosophical glossary, I found this: "OG Adept -- The word means one who is "skilled"; hence, even in our ordinary life, a chemist, a physician, a theologian, a mechanic, an engineer, a teacher of languages, an astronomer, are all "adepts," persons who are skilled, each in his own profession. In theosophical writings, however, an Adept is one who is skilled in the esoteric wisdom, in the teachings of life. " And: "FY Adept, one who, through the development of his spirit, has attained to transcendental knowledge and powers." And: "KT Adept (Lat. adeptus). In Occultism, one who has reached the stage of initiation and become a master in the Science of Esoteric Philosophy." So it looks like I should start using quotation marks, like you, when referring to "Adepts," since for all I know the "Adept" could be any of those. Since there are degrees of "Adeptship," the next question tends to be, Which "Adepts" might be more likely to communicate normally (as in the English language, as by way of postings on a discussion forum), as opposed to those exalted "Adepts up in the sky" who, I gather, work differently, less understandably (at least on the conscious level)? And on a scale of ten, what position might that earth-based, normally behaving, wingless "Adept" have? ========= SNIP ================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 6 11:06:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA21529 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:59:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000901bf70c2$eab28e80$c9b57ed8@computer> From: "bharata" To: References: <000101bf70af$4ecb5780$2b0e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: DTB = M [bn-basic] On "Adepts" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:55:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com re: "Adepts" There are, as has been pointed out, many articles on this subject in Theosophical literature, especially by H.P.B. & W.Q. Judge. Two of the ideas that have interested me are the notions of "resting adepts" (e.g., P.B. Shelley), and the notion that "an adept is not at all times acting as an adept ..." ----- Original Message ----- From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 6:34 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: DTB = M [bn-basic] On "Adepts" > Feb 6th 2000 > > Dear Mauri: > > Your comments and queries on Adepts (seen below) seem to show > that you might like to read some words that earlier students of > Theosophy had to offer on this important subject. There are many > concepts to consider. Let me introduce them here: > > The word "Mahatma" or "great Soul" is often used. One may wonder > how a "soul" becomes great: > > Mr. Judge observes: "A visitor from one of the other planets of > the solar system who might learn the term Mahatma after arriving > here would certainly suppose that the etymology of the word > undoubtedly inspired the believers in Mahatmas with the devotion, > fearlessness, hope, and energy which such an ideal should arouse > in those who have the welfare of the human race at heart...The > whole sweep, meaning, and possibility of evolution are contained > in the word Mahatma. Maha is "great," Atma is "soul," and both > compounded into one mean those great souls who have triumphed > before us not because they are made of different stuff and are of > some strange family, but just because they are of the human race. > > Reincarnation, karma, the sevenfold division, retribution, > reward, struggle, failure, success, illumination, power, and a > vast embracing love for man, all these lie in that single word. > > The soul emerges from the unknown, begins to work in and with > matter, is reborn again and again, makes karma, develops the 6 > vehicles for itself, meets retribution for sin and punishment for > mistake, grows strong by suffering, succeeds in bursting through > the gloom, is enlightened by true illumination, grasps power, > retains charity, expands with love for orphaned humanity, and > thenceforth helps all others who remain in darkness until all may > be raised up to the place with the "Father in Heaven" who is the > Higher Self." WQJ -- ARTICLES. Vol. II, p. 39-40 > > > There is in Theosophy the concept that each "soul" is a Monad. > And the Monad is a unit of Spirit and Matter (or ATMA and BUDDHI > eternally conjoined to Manas -- the "mind --or, "soul."). There > is also the concept that in each human being there is an aspect > of the Universal Spirit, which, being everywhere, is closest to > him in his own innermost Nature -- it is his "secret Self." > Also, it has been called the Spiritual Star of the Soul. Here > is a quotation that supports this: "...every class of adept > has its own bond of spiritual communion...by bringing oneself > within the influence of the Spiritual light which radiates from > one's own Logos... such communion is only possible between > persons whose souls derive their life and sustenance from the > same divine RAY, and that, as seven distinct rays radiate from > the 'Central Spiritual Sun,' all adepts and Dhyan Chohans are > divisible into seven classes, each of which is guided, > controlled, and overshadowed by one of the seven forms or > manifestations of the divine Wisdom." S Row quoted by HPB, SD I > 574. > > It is therefore considered that there is in the Universe, One > Source: and 7 Aspects, or the Primary Rays of that Self that > serve as the basis for all manifestation. This is metaphysics, > but the concept and philosophical base is ancient. Consider > this, even though it is very technically expressed: "The divine, > purely Adi-Buddhic [PRIMORDIAL and UNIVERSAL] monad manifests as > the universal Buddhi (the Mahabuddhi or Mahat [UNIVERSAL > MIND]...) the spiritual omniscient and omnipotent root of divine > intelligence, the highest anima mundi or the Logos. This > descends "like a flame spreading from the eternal Fire, > immovable...ever the same to the end" of the cycle of existence, > and becomes universal life on the Mundane Plane. From this Plane > (the logoi of Life); then the Dhyani-Buddhas of contemplation; > the concrete forms of their formless Fathers -- the Seven Sons of > Light, still themselves, ... "Thou art 'THAT' -- Brahm." It is > from these Dhyani-Buddhas that emanate their chhayas (Shadows) > the Bodhisattvas, and of the terrestrial Buddhas, and finally of > men. The "Seven Sons of Light" are also called "Stars." > > The Secret Doctrine then adds concerning each of us, humans: > > "The star under which a human Entity is born, says the Occult > teaching, will remain for ever its star, throughout the whole > cycle of its incarnations in one Manvantara. But this is not his > astrological star. The latter is concerned and connected with > the personality, the former with the INDIVIDUALITY. The "Angel" > of that Star, or the Dhyani-Buddha will be either the guiding or > simply the presiding "Angel," so to say, in every new rebirth of > the monad, which is part of its own essence. though his vehicle, > man, may remain for ever ignorant of this fact. The adepts have > each their Dhyani-Buddha, their elder "twin Soul," and they know > it, calling it "Father-Soul," and "Father-Fire." ... The Logos, > or both the unmanifested and the manifest-ed WORD, is called by > the Hindus, Iswara...the highest conscious-ness in nature.. > There are seven chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans, which groups > will be found and recognized in every religion, for they are the > primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity...is divided into seven distinct > groups and their sub-divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical * > [ Fn.:-- Hence the 7 chief planets, the spheres of the indwelling > 7 spirits, under each of which is born one of the human groups > which is guided and influenced thereby. There are only 7 planets > (specially connected with earth), and 12 houses, but the possible > combinations of their aspects are countless. ... as infinite as > the spiritual, psychic, mental, and physical capacities in the > numberless varieties-ties of the genus homo, each of which...is > born under on of the 7 planets and one of the said countless > planetary combinations. See Theosophist for August l886]" S. D. > VOL. I, p. 572-3 > > It is also claimed that it is possible to attune our minds to the > Seven Chords represented above: > > "... Whenever you are able to attune your consciousness to any of > the seven chords of 'Universal Consciousness,' those chords that > run along the sounding-board of Kosmos, vibrating from one > Eternity to another; when you have studied thoroughly 'the music > of the Spheres," then only will you become quite free to share > your knowledge with those with whom it is safe to do so... Do not > give out the great Truths that are the inheritance of the future > Races, to our present generation. Do not attempt to unveil the > secret of being and non-being to those unable to see the hidden > meaning of Apollo's HEPTACHORD--the lyre of the radiant god, in > each of the seven strings of which dwelleth the Spirit, Soul and > Astral body of the Kosmos, whose shell only has now fallen into > the hands of Modern Science..." S D I 167 > > Thus you will find that degrees of progress are taken for granted > as man's knowledge and capacity to live productively in the > external world, he may in time graduate to the higher levels of > responsibility which are designated in past systems, for > instance, as : ARAHAT (Sk.) Also...Arhat, Arhan, Rahat, etc., > "the worthy one," lit. "deserving divine honors"...first given to > the Jain and subsequently to the Buddhist holy men initiated into > the esoteric mysteries. The Arhat is one who has entered the > best and highest path, and is thus emancipated from re-berth." > (Theos. GLOS. 28) > > And the term ALAYA (Sk.) The Universal Soul (See SD I 47, > GLOS. 14 ought to be grasped: > "Alaya is literally the "Soul of the World" or Anima Mundi, the > "Over-Soul" of Emerson, and according to esoteric teaching it > changes periodically its nature. Alaya though eternal and > changeless in its inner essence on the planes which are > unreachable by either men of Cosmic Gods (Dhyani Buddhas), alters > during the active life-period with respect to the lower planes, > ours included. During that time not only the Dhyani-Buddhas are > one with Alaya in Soul and Essence, but even the man strong in > the Yoga(mystic meditation) "is able to merge his soul with it" > (Aryasangha, the Bumapa school). This is not Nirvana, but a > condition next to it. Hence the disagreement. Thus, while the > Yogacharyas (of the Mahayana school) say that Alaya is the > personification of the Voidness, and yet Alaya (Nyingpo and Tsang > in Tibetan) is the basis of every visible and invisible thing, > and that, though it is eternal and immutable in its essence, it > reflects itself in every object of the Universe "like the moon in > clear tranquil water;" other schools dispute the statement. The > same for Paramartha..." SD I 47 > > Here are some more terms -- not to confuse, but which later will > be used - to give you an idea of the way in which this important > subject ramifies through Nature. > > BHIKSHU (Sk.) In Pali Bhikku. the first followers of Sakyamuni > Buddha ... "mendicant scholar"... 2 classes: Sramanas ... > esoteric mendicants who control their nature by the (religious) > law, and exoteric mendicants who control their nature by diet..." > GLOS 56 > > SRAMANA (Sk.) Buddhist priests, ascetics and postulants for > Nirvana, "they who have to place a restraint on their thoughts." > GLOS 307 > > MAHATMA (Sk.) Lit., "great soul." An adept of the highest > order. Exalted beings who, having attained to the mastery over > their lower principles are thus living unimpeded by the "man of > flesh," and are in possession of knowledge and power commensurate > with the stage they have reached in their spiritual evolution. > Called in Pali Rahats and Arhats." GLOS 201 > > MAHAYANA (Pal.) A school: lit. "the great vehicle." A mystical > system founded by Nagarjuna. Its books were written in the 2nd > cent. A.D." GLOS 201-2 > > NAGARJUNA (Sk.) An Arhat, a hermit (a native of Western India) > converted to Buddhism by Kapimala...famous for his dialectical > subtlety in metaphysical arguments; and was the first teacher of > the Amitabha doctrine and a representative of the Mahayana > School. Viewed as the greatest philosopher of the Buddhists, he > was referred to as "one of the four suns which illumine the > world." He was born 223 BC, and going to China after his > conversion converted in his turn the whole country to Buddhism." > (THY MAG 24-271) GLOS 223 > > PATANJALI (Sk.) founder of the Yoga philosophy....Occultists > [assign his date] nearer to 700 than 600 BC...a contemporary of > Panini." Glos, 251 > > PANINI (Sk.) celebrated grammarian, author of...Paniniyama; a > Rishi, supposed to have received his work from the god Siva > ...600BC" GLOS 248 > > In regard to Initiation it is said: "The degrees of an Adept's > initiation mark the seven stages at which he discovers the secret > of the sevenfold principles in nature and man and awakens his > dormant powers." M.L. 99 > > All true Adept live to serve the world. The concept is that this > is a vast cooperative Universe and each one of us occupies a > necessary position in it and can serve voluntarily as an > assistant to the progress of others and of ourselves. the idea > is that any service offered to another enhances our own level of > progress. We are all immortals (as Monads) and so we are going > to be running into one another frequently. The idea of > friendship, service and brotherhood is built into this. We don't > have to elbow other out of the way, as Karma always provides > adequate "living space" for all. > > This is expressed as : "[The Adept]...serves humanity and > identifies himself with the whole world; he is ready to make > vicarious sacrifice for it at any moment--by living not by dying > for it. Why should he not die for it? Because he is part of the > whole, and one of the most valuable parts of it. Because he > lives under laws of order which he does not desire to break. His > life is not his own, but that of the forces which work behind > him. He is the flower of humanity, the bloom which contains the > divine seed. He is, in his own person, a treasure of the > universal nature. which is guarded and made safe in order that > the fruition shall be perfected. It is only at definite periods > of the world's history that he is al-lowed to go among the herd > of men as their redeemer." LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 72-3 > > The question is often asked: Where are the Adepts ? Are they > near or far? Do they "watch" over us, or do they stay so far > that they have no actual contact with our struggles? and so > on... Let us wee what was written: > > "Through all time the wise men have lived apart from the mass. > That the chief body of these wise ones should be understood to > dwell beyond the fastnesses of the Himalayas...p. 70 ] And even > when some temporary purpose or object induces one of them to come > into the midst of human life, his seclusion and safety is > preserved as completely as ever... they are only known as mystics > by those who have the power to recognize; the power given by the > conquering of self. Otherwise how could they exist, even for an > hour, in such a mental and psychic atmosphere as is created by > the confusion and disorder of a city ? Unless protected and made > safe their own growth would be interfered with, their work > injured. And the neophyte may meet an adept in the flesh, may > live in the same house with him, and yet be unable to recognize > him, and unable to make his own voice heard by him... No voice > penetrates to his inner hearing till it has become a divine > voice, a voice which gives no utterance to the cries of self... > Until a man has become, in heart and spirit a disciple, he has no > existence for those who are teachers of disciples. And he > becomes this by one method only--the surrender of his personal > humanity." L ON P p. 74-5 > > One of the Masters of Wisdom wrote: "If, for generations we have > "shut out the world from the Knowledge of our Knowledge," it is > on account of its absolute unfitness; and if, notwithstanding > proofs given, it still refuses yielding to evidence, then will we > at the End of this cycle retire into solitude and our kingdom of > silence once more...We have offered to exhume the primeval strata > of man's being, his basic nature, and lay bare the wonderful > complications or his inner Self...and demonstrate it > scientifically...It is our mission to plunge and bring the pearls > of Truth to the surface...For countless generations hath the > adept builded a fane of imperishable rocks, a giant's Tower of > Infinite Thought, wherein the Titan dwelt, and will yet, if need > be, dwell alone, emerging from it but at the end of every cycle, > to invite the elect of mankind to cooperate with him and help in > his turn enlighten superstitious man. And we will go on in that > periodical work of ours; we will not allow ourselves to be > baffled in our philanthropic attempts until that day when the > foundations of a new continent of thought are so firmly built > that no amount of opposition and ignorant malice guided by the > Brethren of the Shadow will be found to prevail." M L p. 50-1 > > Passing then, from this consideration, one might ask about the > state of harmony of the Adept and of the disciples, called the > Chelas. and answer is provided in: "...an adept may be compared > to that one key which contains all the keys in the great harmony > of nature. He has the synthesis of all keys in his thoughts, > whereas the ordinary man has the same key as a basis, but only > acts and thinks on one or a few changes of this great key, > producing in his brain only a few chords out of the whole great > possible harmony...the brain of the chela is attuned by training > to the brain of the Master. His vibrations synchronize with > those of the Adept...so the chela's brain is abnormal...the adept > sees all the colors in every color and yet does not confuse them > together...the highest adepts [ have raised their vibrations so > as to have them the same as those of nature as a whole ]...He can > produce a sound which will alter a color. It is the sound which > produces the color, and not the other or opposite. By > correlating the vibrations of a sound in the proper way a new > color is made...on the astral plane every sound always produces a > color...these are invisible because not yet correlated by the > human brain so as to become visible on the earth plane....His > astral senses may see the true color, but the physical eye has > its own vibrations, and these, being on the outer plane, overcome > the others for the time, and the astral man is compelled to > report to the brain that it saw correctly. For in each case the > outer stimulus is sent to the inner man, who then is forced, as > it were, to accept the message and to confirm it for the time so > far as it goes. But there are cases where the inner man is able > to even then overcome the outer defect and to make the brain see > the difference...." > WQJ ARTICLES, Vol. I, p. 423-426. > > Let us also consider something about the process of becoming a > chela, and from that step, to eventually becoming an Adept. > Thinking about this and our daily living one is able to see that > all our lives we are confronted in our "inner private life" with > a series of daily and hourly initiations. Not everyone is aware > of this. Consider that during the period when we went to school > we were not told and yet imperceptibly we were under the tests of > daily life in the education environment. This does not come to > an end, but continues today, and it has been so for all our many > lives. > > "It is supposed by some that initiation is always and in every > case a set and solemn occasion for which the candidate is > prepared and notified in advance. While there are some > initiations surrounded by such solemnities as these, the daily > one, without success in which no aspirant will ever have the > chance to try for those that are higher, comes to the disciple > with almost each moment. It is met in our relations with our > fellows, and in the effects upon us of all the circumstances of > life. And if we fail in these, we never get to the point where > greater ones are offered. If we cannot bear momentary defeat, or > if a chance word that strikes our self-love finds us unprepared, > or if we give way to the desire to harshly judge others, or if we > remain in ignorance of some of our most apparent faults, we do > not build up that knowledge and strength imperatively demanded > from whoever is to be master of nature." WQJ ART II 497-8 > > In other words we are constantly faced with moments of choice. > This is covered in the following : "It is in the life of every > one to have a moment of choice, but that moment is not set for > any particular day. It is the sum total of all days; and it may > be put off until the day of death, and then it is beyond our > power, for the choice has been fixed by all the acts and thoughts > of the lifetime. We are self-doomed at that hour to just the > sort of life, body, environment, and tendencies which will best > carry out our karma. This is a thing solemn enough, and one that > makes the "daily initiation" of the very greatest importance to > each earnest student." WQJ ART II 497-8 > > One gradually becomes aware that in Theosophical philosophy it is > held that our universe is one in which all beings are conscious. > and the measure of progress is of the level of consciousness that > we can use. This relates to the Adepts and the Initiates; it > was written: > > "That High Spirits work on Earth in bodies of men, while those > spirits are still in the highest spheres [ see SD I 233-4 &fn, > 235fn ]...it is clearly explained that the author [HPB] does not > mean that which is called among the spiritualists "control" of > mediums by a spirit, but the actual continuance of the status and > functions of the incarnated spirit in the supersensuous regions, > while actually using as its own and working in a mortal envelope > on earth. So that, according to her, there are certain persons > on this earth, living and working as ordinary human beings and > members of society. whose informing divine part is so > immeasurably high in development that they as such high beings > have a definite status and function in the "supersensuous > regions." > > We should say...that she herself was such a case, and that > "H.P.B.," whether hourly in the day and night when all around was > still, had a status and functions" in their spheres where she > consciously carried on the work of that high station, whatever it > was. > > There were many events in her daily life known to those who were > intimate with her that this hint may reveal, or at least shed > much light upon. And in one of her letters the sentence > appears--in substance--"The difference between you and me is that > you are not conscious except at day, while I am conscious day and > night, and have much to do and to endure in both of these > existences from which you, being thus half-conscious, are happily > saved." > > In the Hindu books and teachings there is a reference to this > when the speak of high gnanees--that is, persons full of > knowledge and spiritual power--being attracted to this earth by > certain acts and at certain times in the history of nation, race > or city." > ("Hidden Hints in the S. D." WQJ Articles, I p. 615-6) > > "If it is true that "the whole universe is an aggregate of > states of consciousness," it would seem to follow that the real > difference between one who is an initiate and one who is not lies > in the fact that the former looks at all things from a totally > different stand point to the majority of men...that he is on a > higher plane of consciousness altogether. If such a higher plane > has been attained, it will follow that his whole range of ideas > will differ from that of others and he will be sensible of the > operation of causes of a more far-reaching character than those > cognized by others. He will be as it were in the possession of > higher and superior information and so will be able to form > juster conclusions and this fact alone will give him enormous > power." T A & N 60 > > "The action of the entire universe is but a detailed > manifestation and example of the action of mind on matter, > governed at the highest point by the action of the universal > mind. Between the finite human mind of the ordinary uninitiated > individual and this universal mind lie an infinite number of > gradually ascending degrees, and the higher the plane of > consciousness the nearer is the approach to the universal mind > which is, as it were, the mainspring of the whole." --"Alpha" > THEOS ART & NOTES, p. 60-1 > > Let us to this by observing that the whole Universe is sentient > and like a gigantic human it has a brain" which is may be said to > be functional along the following lines: "Occult philosophy > reconciles the absurdity of postulating in the manifested > Universe an active Mind without an organ, with that worse > absurdity, an objective Universe evolved as everything else in > it, by blind chance, by giving to this Universe an organ of > thought, a "brain." The latter, although not objective to our > senses, is nonetheless existing; it is to be found in the Entity > called Kosmos (Adam Kadmon, in the Kabala)." > > "As in the Microcosm, Man, so in the Macrocosm, of the Universe. > Every "organ" in it is a sentient entity, and every particle of > matter or substance, from the physical molecule up to the > spiritual atom, is a cell, a nerve center, which communicates." T > A & N 208 > > This discussion brings us back to one of the main points we spoke > of at the outset: Man's Inner Self the Real Ego, or the Monad > (Atma-Buddhi) is a ray of the Universal Mind. "This is > precisely what occult philosophy claims: our Ego is a ray of the > Universal Mind, individualized for the space of a cosmic > life-cycle, during which space of time it gets experience in > almost numberless reincarnations or rebirths, after which it > returns to its Parent-Source. "The Occultist would call the > "Higher Ego" the immortal Entity, whose shadow and reflection is > the human Manas, the mind, limited by its physical senses. The > two may be well compared to the Master-artist and the > pupil-musician. "In the course of natural evolution our > "brain-mind" will be replaced by a finer organism, and helped by > the 6th and the 7th senses. "The "sensing principle" in us is an > entity capable of acting outside as inside its material body; > and it is certainly independent of any organ in particular, in > its actions, although during its incarnation it manifests itself > through its physical organs. T A & N 208-9 > > But, one may ask, How is it possible to remember all these > details? Here is a philosophy that truly makes one's mind spin. > It demands a study of the history of philosophy and religions > which rarely anyone has to do. Furthermore, where can we store > the memory of all this information? There is an interesting > statement that seems to provide an answer to this: "Our "memory" > is but a general agent, and its "tablets," with their indelible > impressions, but a figure of speech; the "brain-tablets" serve > only as a upadhi or a vahan (basis or vehicle) for reflecting at > a given moment the memory of one or another thing. The records > of past events, of even minutest action, and of passing thoughts, > in fact, are really impressed on the imperishable waves of the > ASTRAL LIGHT, around us and every-where, not in the brain alone; > and these mental pictures, images, and sounds, pass from these > waves via the consciousness of the personal Ego or Mind (the > lower Manas) whose grosser essence is astral, into the "cerebral > reflectors," so to say, or our brain, whence they are delivered > by the psychic to the sensuous consciousness. This at every > moment of the day, and even during sleep." HPB (Footnote in > Lucifer -- THEOS ART & NOTES, p. 208-9) > > "..."Mind" is manas, or rather its lower reflection, which > whenever it disconnects itself, for the time being, with kama, > becomes the guide of the highest mental faculties, and is the > organ of the free-will in physical man...." (HPB ARTICLES, > Vol. II, p. 13) "Mankind usually receives a thousand > impressions through the senses to one through the spiritual > nature. Adeptship means reversing the proportion." -- H.S.Olcott > (PATH 3, 109) > > Mr. Judge writes about HPB and her work and calls her an Adept > living and working in our world. he wrote: > > "In 1875, in the City of New York, I first met H.P.B. in this > life...It was her eye that attracted me, the eye of one whom I > must have known in lives long passed away. She looked at me in > recognition at that first hour, and never since has that look > changed...Not as a questioner of philosophies did I come before > her...but as one, wandering many periods through the corridors of > life, was seeking the friends who could show where the designs > for the work had been hidden. And true to the call she > responded, revealing the plans once again, and speaking no words > to explain, simply pointed then out and went on with the task. > It was as if but the evening before we had parted, leaving yet to > be done some detail of a task taken up with one common end; it > was teacher and pupil, elder brother and younger, both bent on > the one single end, but she with the power and the > knowledge that belong but to lions and sages. > > Others I know have looked with suspicion on an appearance they > could not fathom, and though it is true they adduce many proofs > which hugged to the breast, would damn sages and gods, yet it is > only through blindness they failed to see the lion's glance, the > diamond heart of H.P.B...she was laying down the lines of force > all over the land... > > The explanation has been offered by some too anxious friends > that the earlier phenomena were mistakes in judgment, attempted > to be rectified in later years by confining their area and > limit-ing their number, but...I shall hold to her own explanation > made in advance and never changed. That I have given above. For > it is easier to take refuge behind a charge of bad judgment than > to understand the strange and powerful laws which control in > matters such as these. > > Amid all the turmoil of her life, above all the din produced by > those who charged her with deceit and fraud and others who > defended, while month after month, and year after year, witnessed > men and women entering the theosophical movement only to leave it > soon with malignant phrases for H.P.B., there stands a fact we > all might consider--devotion absolute to her Master. "It was > He," she writes, "who told me to devote myself to this, and I > will never disobey and never turn back."... > > Willing in the service of the cause to offer up hope, money, > reputation, life itself, provided the Society might be saved from > every hurt, whether small or great. And thus bound body and soul > to this entity called the T. S., bound to protect it at all > hazards, and in the face of every loss, she often incurred the > resentment of many who became her friends but would not always > care for the infant organization as she had sworn to do. And > when they acted as it opposed to the Society, her instant > opposition seemed to them to nullify professions of friendship. > Thus she had but few friends, for it required a keen insight, > untinged with personal feeling, to see even a small part of the > real H.P.Blavatsky... > > She worked under directors who, operating from behind the scene, > knew that the T. S. was, and was to be, the nucleus from which > help might be spread to all the people of the day, without thanks > and without acknowledgment...I asked her what was the chance of > drawing people into the Society...she said:--"When you consider > those days in 1875 and after, in which you could not find any > people interested in your thoughts, and now look at the > wide-spreading influence of theosophical ideas--however labeled-- > it is not so bad. We are not working that people may call > them-selves Theosophists, but that the doctrines we cherish may > affect and leaven the whole mind of this century. This alone can > be accomplished by a small earnest band of workers, who work for > no human reward, no earthly recognition, but who, supported and > sustained by a belief in that Universal Brotherhood of which our > Masters are a part, work steadily, faithfully, in understanding > and putting forth for consideration the doctrines of life and > duty that have come down to us from immemorial time. Falter not > so long as a few devoted ones will work to keep the nucleus > existing. You were not directed to found and realise a Universal > Brotherhood, but to form the nucleus for one; for it is only > when the nucleus it formed that the accumulations can begin that > will end in future years, however far, in the formation of that > body which we have in view." > > H.P.B. had a lion heart, and on the work traced out for her she > had a lion's grasp, let us...sustain ourselves in carrying out > the designs laid down on the trestle-board, by the memory of her > devotion and the consciousness that behind her task stood, and > still remain, those Elder Brothers who, above the clatter and the > din of our battle, ever see the end and direct the forces > distributed in array for the salvation of "that great > orphan--Humanity." W. Q. Judge > (Yours till Death and After, H.P.B..." Judge Articles, II p. > 1) > > "...in 1875 she told me that she was then embarking on a work > that would draw upon her unmerited slander, implacable malice, > uninterrupted misunderstanding, constant work, and no worldly > reward. Yet in the face of this her lion heart carried her > on...Much has been said of her "phenomena," some denying them, > others alleging trick and device. Knowing her for so many years > so well, and having seen at her hands in private the production > of more and more varied phenomena that it has been the good > fortune of all others of her friends put together to seem I know > for myself that she had control of hidden powerful laws of nature > not known to our science, and I also know that she never boasted > of her powers, never advertised their possession, never publicly > advised anyone to attempt their acquirement, but always turned > the eyes of those who could understand her to a life of altruism > based on a knowledge of true philosophy. > > If the world thinks that her days were spent in deluding her > followers by pretended phenomena, it is solely because her > injudicious friends, against her expressed wish, gave out > wonderful stories of her "miracles" which can not be proved to a > skeptical public and which are not the aim of the Society nor > were ever more than mere incidents in the life of H.P.Blavatsky. > > Her aim was to elevate the race. Her method was to deal with > the mind of the century as she found it, by trying to lead it on > step by step; to seek out and educate a few who, appreciating > the majesty of the Secret Science and devoted to "the great > orphan Humanity," could carry on her work with zeal and wisdom; > to found a Society whose efforts--however small itself might > be--would inject into the thought of the day the ideas, the > doctrines, the nomenclature of the Wisdom Religion, so that when > the next century shall have seen its 75th years the new messenger > coming again into the world would find the Society still at work, > the ideas sown broadcast, the nomenclature ready to give > expression and body to the immutable truth, and thus to make easy > the task which for her since 1875 was so difficult and so > encompassed with obstacles in the very paucity of the > language--obstacles harder than all else to work against." W. Q. > Judge > ( "H.P.B.--A Lion-hearted Colleague Passes" WQJ Articles II p. > 5) > > I trust that this may prove to be of use in this regard. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > dalval@nwc.net > > ==================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mauri > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:25 PM > Subject: [bn-basic] Re: "Adepts" & Adepts > > > Dennis: Your response on whether and how an Adept might reply to > a > question posed by someone (as by a list writer/s) surprised me in > that I > was under the impression that the Adepts were . . . well, in > hiding, or too > advanced to even be here on this earth plane since, aside from > HPB's > mention of Koot Humi and ? whoever, few of the current writers > (if any?) > have recounted any kind of communications with Adepts (that I > know of, at > any rate.) So it seems that my notions about "Adepts" have been a > little > off, on a tangent, to say the least. And since you, Dennis, > use > parentheses on the word "Adept," you seem to be saying that the > term is > open to interpretation. To what extent? Are you saying that an > Adept is > anybody who is particularly adept at something, (to what > extent, and in > what way?) thereby earning the capital A? Looking in a > theosophical > glossary, I found this: "OG Adept -- The word means one who is > "skilled"; > hence, even in our ordinary life, a chemist, a physician, a > theologian, a > mechanic, an engineer, a teacher of languages, an astronomer, are > all > "adepts," persons who are skilled, each in his own profession. In > theosophical writings, however, an Adept is one who is skilled in > the > esoteric wisdom, in the teachings of life. " > And: "FY Adept, one who, through the development of his spirit, > has > attained to transcendental knowledge and powers." > And: "KT Adept (Lat. adeptus). In Occultism, one who has reached > the stage > of initiation and become a master in the Science of Esoteric > Philosophy." > So it looks like I should start using quotation marks, like you, > when > referring to "Adepts," since for all I know the "Adept" could be > any of > those. > > Since there are degrees of "Adeptship," the next question tends > to be, > Which "Adepts" might be more likely to communicate normally (as > in the English language, > as by way of postings on a discussion forum), as opposed to > those exalted > "Adepts up in the sky" who, I gather, work differently, less > understandably (at least on the conscious level)? And on a scale > of ten, what position might that earth-based, normally > behaving, wingless "Adept" have? > > ========= SNIP ================== > > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 6 11:49:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id LAA22683 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:13:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000206090648.00af9d50@theosophy.com> X-Sender: editor@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:10:31 -0800 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: Theosophy World Editor Subject: Theos-World Re: Further Thoughts Re: "The Path" AS I Perceive It Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com The following message was posted to theos-talk, but due to some mistake of the majordomo mailing list program, did not go out. >From: LeonMaurer@aol.com >Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:30:19 EST >Subject: Re: Further Thoughts Re: "The Path" As I Perceive It > >Dear Jim, > >Thank you for sending me your thoughts on "The Path" and on "Spirituality." >(I hadn't seen it before, since I do not yet subscribe to bn-basic.) Most of >my correspondence is with the scientific forums studying consciousness... >And, occasionally, I post on BN-study and theos-world -- either copies of my >science forum dialogues that have theosophical interest, or when I feel it >necessary to steer theosophists toward the more practical group efforts of >helping and teaching others (who are caught up in the insidious worlds of >Earth and Mankind destroying materialism) what they need to know to save >themselves and the planet from potential destruction... Which, I see as >inevitable, if they don't learn their true natures, mend their ways, and use >their latent spiritual and psychic powers in universal action to re-harmonize >the disturbed fields of consciousness (astral-kama-manas) of both the Earth >and the Human race as a whole. > >Many of us, in the Movement, who understand the real purpose of the Masters >teachings, as given out by HPB for the benefit of all, know that if Humanity >as a whole doesn't catch up on the million years of evolution lost to us in >the past, the race may not survive the next hundred years. So, there is much >more to theosophy, than the mere personal attainment of spirituality. A >purely selfish goal by itself, and relatively meaningless for the ultimate >purpose of the "Movement" -- if that is all that one strives for and >considers to be the only "Path." > >As for over-stressing the use of book learning to gain spirituality, I am >entirely in agreement with you. I also think that H. P. Blavatsky would also >agree, since she constantly stressed the necessity of following the "hearp >meditation alone... The practice for which she gave us in the "Voice of the >Silence" (and which W. Q. Judge gave us in his translation of the "Yoga >Aphorisms of Patanjali"). > >But, there is more to such meditative practice, beyond the mere finding of >one's spiritual center. One must also become THAT Spiritual Self, and act >for and as the Self. But, even that is only a part of the total means of >becoming a full fledged "Theosophist" (as well as an effective "agent" of the >Masters) who can ACT, intelligently, in the "true service of Humanity" -- and >thereby, become "better able to help and teach others." (See; The >Declaration of the United Lodge of Theosophists.) > >To become as, and to be able to act for "THAT," one must not only have the >power of knowledge (of "the synthesis of science, religion and philosophy") >along with a profound understanding of the three "Fundamental Principles" or >Propositions... But, one must also have the spiritual wisdom and intuitive >knowledge leading to an understanding of and the ability to utilize the >"unexplained laws of nature and the psychical powers latent in man" (3rd >Object of the Theosophical Movement)... > >All this requires "self determined and self devised" study, along with >clearly directed meditation (concentration) on what is learned. Thus, the >importance of combining, in such study, the meditational guide books such as >VOS and Patanjali, along with the "text" books such as the SD -- as well as >all the other tutorial literature and articles of HPB and WQJ. Together, >they make up a complete, integrated course of study on the science, the >philosophy, and the religion (or yoga) of theosophy... No part of which can >stand alone. The teachings of theosophy were not given out solely for the >attainment of one's personal enlightenment. From the standpoint of the 'ends >in view' of the Theosophical Movement, that could be a useless and wasted >effort, to say the least -- if not done solely for the benefit of others. > >Therefore, besides gaining one's own "realization of the Self" (experiencing >the Spirit within) through simple introspective meditation while following >the "heart doctrine" path -- one must also (to be of ultimate use to the >'Movement'), simultaneously follow the practical "head doctrine" path -- both >of which are combined in the three "Objects of the Theosophical Movement." >i.e., 1) To form the nucleus of the Universal brotherhood of humanity... 2) >The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies and sciences and... >3) The investigation of the unexplained laws of nature and the psychical >powers latent in man. > >This requires careful study of and meditation on the 'Fundamental >Principles,' along with the scientific background behind the Cosmogenesis and >Anthropogenesis that is taught in the Secret Doctrine. Such study leads the >"intuitive student" toward ferreting out the "mysteries" hidden "within and >around the words" and "between the lines" -- as he/she follows the Rajah yoga >path toward ultimately understanding the secret formulas and correlation of >forces laid out symbolically in the Book of Dzyan. > >As you say, when one achieves spiritual enlightenment, one intuitively will >know the right things to do that is ethical and moral in any situation. But >theosophy goes much deeper than that. Theosophy is concerned with those that >have not achieved such enlightenment. And, when situations face one that >concern the welfare of other having many different and opposing degrees of >ignorance or false knowledge, one needs much more than good intentions in >finding what is the right action. As the Buddha said, "Right action requires >right knowledge." You can't save a drowning person if you can't swim. And, >trying to help and teach those who are caught up in the ignorance of their >lower natures and who are suffering the bad karma of materialism, along with >the depredations brought upon themselves by the lower aspects of their seven >fold natures -- requires a great deal of theosophical knowledge (and wisdom). > But Atma (Spirit) alone, in spite of its inherent wisdom, is helpless to act >effectively without the powers of Buddhi and higher Manas (intuition, memory, >and mind) -- where such knowledge is stored, and is available to us as a >guide to our actions. > >Only deep study of the theosophical literature can give you this knowledge, >in order to be able to act correctly with the help of the wisdom gained by >realization of the Self -- (i.e., Being ONE with the light of the Divine >Source of all Wisdom which, in itself, cannot act without our gained >knowledge of this world and the way it works.) Therefore, no matter how much >one has become spiritually aware, if one doesn't understand the insidious >power of our lower nature by studying it and its relationship to all seven of >our inner natures (and those of the Universe, "As above, so below") -- one >may never overcome it -- and, like the rest of the world, possibly remain the >victim of it. > >So, to find out how all our inner natures function and interrelate -- it's >essential that one reads and studies all the theosophical books (or listen to >all the teachers who can explain it). As this is done, linkages will be made >with whatever we learned and did along these lines in our past lives, and our >intuition will open the doors to the ancient knowledge of the Adepts -- who >fully understand, and can utilize, the unexplained laws of nature and the >psychical powers latent in man. That's the real purpose of the 'Theosophical >Movement' and its underlying teachings, as written down by HPB, as well as by >many others in the ancient and modern religious, scientific and philosophical >literature that she points us to. > >So, I admire the intuitive way you have understood and explained the natural >way to arrive at a realization of the spirit, and also your recognition of >the need for further study and meditation on the teachings. (which could very >well indicates a prior life as a theosophical initiate, or Chela). It stands >to reason, that if one is to devote one's life to be "better able to help and >teach others," what better way to empower such efforts than by being "in >love" with the Supreme spirit -- of which we each, as the individual rays of >its divine energy, are an integral partner. > >I hope this helps. > >Leon Maurer > >http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ >http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html > >-------------------------------- >In a message dated 2/5/0 2:41:14 AM, rodakjl@pcola.gulf.net writes: > > > > Dear Leon - > > > > I recently posted this on the BN-basic as my personal thoughts re: "The > > Path." Perhaps you read it. I had hoped that it would have generated. some > > feedback, esp. since I was taking a less "bookish" approach to explaining > > how I, personally, perceived the subject. > > > > I have come to respect your > > observations and comments re: theosophical matters and would welcome > > your thoughts/critique re: my writeup -- whenever you get a chance. > > I look forward to your reply. > > V/R, Jim Rodak > > >>Greetings: > >I have pondered over the many thoughtful submissions re: "the path" >and "spirituality" that have recently appeared on this wonderful, >educational, theosophical website. However, I must confess that >sometimes I get a sense from reading some of the comments that there are >respondents who, with genuine sincerity, believe that answers to their >questions re: "the path"and "spirituality" can be found in some book, from >dialogue, and/or by conducting their lives in some special way. I do not >discount the importance of what can be found in theosophical texts, from >discussions from well-informed theosophical brethren, or in living a noble, >moral lifestyle but, in my opinion, there is a lot of introspection and >"pondering" that the Pilgrim has to do in concert with readings, discussions >and living. Some of my "personal ponderings" re: this matter follow. > >I sincerely believe that "The Path" is, in reality, our true. Self, fully >manifested: an "emanation from the Divine" - if you will - that is an >integral aspect of our physical being. However, in the process of living >life, many mortals choose to ignore their Divine nature and acquiesce to >a life of self-centerdness, sensualism, and acquisitiveness. The Divine >within then becomes silent: deaf ears having been turned to its still, quiet >voice, the purpose of which is to guide us toward that which is ethically and >morally and, yes, spiritually right. > >It is also my opinion that we all have the innate ability, freedom and power >to choose the right course of action in any situation that mortal life >presents >us with. Our Divine nature will, if given the chance, speak to us of "the >right >thing to do" if only we will take the time to listen intently and simply ask >our >true Self, "What is the correct moral and ethical decision that I must make >in >this situation?" The answer will be made patently clear if we are sincere in >our invocation. We must then act, without compromise, reservation or >equivocation. It is in the listening to and acting upon that inner voice - >our >true Self - that we become enlightened as to our Divine nature and purpose in >life, and that our true Self advances toward, and ultimately returns, whence >it >came. > >You will then recognize that you are unified with the Presence, the Invisible >Cause, and have that "intuitive sense of knowing" that you are on the Path. >I liken it to "being in love." I have never known anyone to have really >captured >"the feeling" of being "in love." It is an elusive, indescribable feeling >that >escapes being articulated, either in writing or in speach. But there is no >doubt that when you've "found it", that what you "feel," is "it." So often >"it" >is prefaced with the words, "Well, it's like **********." I believe that is >the way "being on the path" or "experiencing spirituality" is. We can say >that "[It] is like **********." but, in reality, only by having that >"intuitive >sense of knowing" in the depths of our being will we sense that "we've >arrived." There is no magic checklist, in my view, that will indicate that >you have finally "arrived" on "the path" or "found spirituality." But you'll >know and sense it when it happens, when you've found "it." > >These are some personal ponderings that I wanted to share with my >fellow Pilgrims. > >I look forward to your comments and thoughts. > >Most Respectfully, Jim Rodak>> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 6 15:04:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA08423 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:38:07 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "James L. Rodak" Subject: Theos-World Keeping track of Theosophical Fundamentals Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:32:06 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf70e1$3d909020$9d0e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 6th 2000 Dear Jim: It occurred to me in view of your inquiries that it might be helpful you started to erect an edifice in the shape of what you have acquired on information from Theosophy. Why not do this on the computer page/file ? 1. in a column as you can move things around -- then 2. as facts questions and ideas emerge enter them opposite the keys in a 2nd column. 3. In addition either place opposite those the theories or conclusion of our modern knowledge/science. As a 3rd column put in your observations or questions If we can use this to exchange information back and forth we will be able to make answers or suggest adjustments. It might eliminate a lot of explanations . Also, it might to get to look a lot like HPB's KEY TO THEOSOPHY. We could then draw up "chapters" for those items that related more specifically to a subject. There will be overlapping as inevitably certain laws, information, queries and operations will span the arbitrary divisions we might at first create. My object is to reduce complexity to a rather brief but living set of concepts, which we all might think about and use. Let me advance the following and see if it is useful: ======================================================= SUBJECT QUESTIONS EXISTING OPINIONS Theosophy Observations of Science, Academies offers: Why, How, Where ? ======================================================= BROTHERHOOD Fact ? Evidence: cellular cooperation in body UNITY In diversity Of Universe expanding ? Harmony of Is LIFE united ? diversities ? Cooperation LAW /LAWS Many evidences in Physical evidence available science Laws of physics & chemistry, etc. Mathematics String theory Indeterminacy, Fractiles, LAW Moral Law Proof? Brotherhood ? IMMORTALITY Proof? Atoms held to be Spirit ? Prove it ? Matter Atoms ? Permanency ? MONAD Atma/Buddhi Proof ? Perceiving SELF. HIGHER SELF "Ray" of Universal SPIRIT EVOLUTION Of all Nature and Proof ? of each being Proof Monad causes individual evolution Proof ? REINCARNATION Of Intelligence, Proof ? Consciousness In / Out of the Brain ? After-Death states Near-Death-Experiences Historical evidence KARMA Unified impersonal Proof ? Law of progress for all beings. Prove it. MATTER Atoms, Molecules, Cells, SPACE shown full of crystals, Proteins, etc... atomic particles Dark Matter ? Gases liquids solids Black Holes ASTRAL MATTER Electro-Magnetic fields Morpho-genetic field Field structure for arrangement of Atoms, molecules, cells, etc. Genetics & gnome LEARNING & Earth a School Prove it. WISDOM Humans are immortal Proof? Pupils Each Life -- a Day in Proof ? School Memory impacted in Proof? Permanent MIND. RELIGION Many Practices ARE THEY NECESSARY ? Gaps in logic between Why does not Science give fact, belief, faith, hope answers yet ? Who or What is correct ? LOGIC / BELIEF Truth--How to find it ? If facts change who or what do we trust ? Philosophies Deductive/inductive Empiricism Observation and Recording BEST ATTITUDE Observe, seek causes Observe, record everything TO ADOPT honestly and exactly Draw in all available Frame hypotheses with information willingness to modify as needed. ORIENTALISM Honesty in Secure original texts ANCIENT WISDOM translation Honesty in translation Avoid rigidity in theories Offer hypotheses guardedly ==================================================== Best wishes: Dallas dalval@nwc.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 6 17:15:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id QAA22344 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:54:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <389E1875.3E56@wworld.com> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:57:25 -0800 From: scott holloman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Further Thoughts Re: "The Path" AS I Perceive It References: <4.2.2.20000206090648.00af9d50@theosophy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Theosophy World Editor wrote: > > The following message was posted to theos-talk, but due to > some mistake of the majordomo mailing list program, did not > go out. > > >From: LeonMaurer@aol.com > >Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:30:19 EST > >Subject: Re: Further Thoughts Re: "The Path" As I Perceive It > > > >Dear Jim, > > > >Thank you for sending me your thoughts on "The Path" and on "Spirituality." > >(I hadn't seen it before, since I do not yet subscribe to bn-basic.) Most of > >my correspondence is with the scientific forums studying consciousness... > >And, occasionally, I post on BN-study and theos-world -- either copies of my > >science forum dialogues that have theosophical interest, or when I feel it > >necessary to steer theosophists toward the more practical group efforts of > >helping and teaching others (who are caught up in the insidious worlds of > >Earth and Mankind destroying materialism) what they need to know to save > >themselves and the planet from potential destruction... Which, I see as > >inevitable, if they don't learn their true natures, mend their ways, and use > >their latent spiritual and psychic powers in universal action to re-harmonize > >the disturbed fields of consciousness (astral-kama-manas) of both the Earth > >and the Human race as a whole. > > > >Many of us, in the Movement, who understand the real purpose of the Masters > >teachings, as given out by HPB for the benefit of all, know that if Humanity > >as a whole doesn't catch up on the million years of evolution lost to us in > >the past, the race may not survive the next hundred years. So, there is much > >more to theosophy, than the mere personal attainment of spirituality. A > >purely selfish goal by itself, and relatively meaningless for the ultimate > >purpose of the "Movement" -- if that is all that one strives for and > >considers to be the only "Path." > > > >As for over-stressing the use of book learning to gain spirituality, I am > >entirely in agreement with you. I also think that H. P. Blavatsky would also > >agree, since she constantly stressed the necessity of following the "hearp > >meditation alone... The practice for which she gave us in the "Voice of the > >Silence" (and which W. Q. Judge gave us in his translation of the "Yoga > >Aphorisms of Patanjali"). > > > >But, there is more to such meditative practice, beyond the mere finding of > >one's spiritual center. One must also become THAT Spiritual Self, and act > >for and as the Self. But, even that is only a part of the total means of > >becoming a full fledged "Theosophist" (as well as an effective "agent" of the > >Masters) who can ACT, intelligently, in the "true service of Humanity" -- and > >thereby, become "better able to help and teach others." (See; The > >Declaration of the United Lodge of Theosophists.) > > > >To become as, and to be able to act for "THAT," one must not only have the > >power of knowledge (of "the synthesis of science, religion and philosophy") > >along with a profound understanding of the three "Fundamental Principles" or > >Propositions... But, one must also have the spiritual wisdom and intuitive > >knowledge leading to an understanding of and the ability to utilize the > >"unexplained laws of nature and the psychical powers latent in man" (3rd > >Object of the Theosophical Movement)... > > > >All this requires "self determined and self devised" study, along with > >clearly directed meditation (concentration) on what is learned. Thus, the > >importance of combining, in such study, the meditational guide books such as > >VOS and Patanjali, along with the "text" books such as the SD -- as well as > >all the other tutorial literature and articles of HPB and WQJ. Together, > >they make up a complete, integrated course of study on the science, the > >philosophy, and the religion (or yoga) of theosophy... No part of which can > >stand alone. The teachings of theosophy were not given out solely for the > >attainment of one's personal enlightenment. From the standpoint of the 'ends > >in view' of the Theosophical Movement, that could be a useless and wasted > >effort, to say the least -- if not done solely for the benefit of others. > > > >Therefore, besides gaining one's own "realization of the Self" (experiencing > >the Spirit within) through simple introspective meditation while following > >the "heart doctrine" path -- one must also (to be of ultimate use to the > >'Movement'), simultaneously follow the practical "head doctrine" path -- both > >of which are combined in the three "Objects of the Theosophical Movement." > >i.e., 1) To form the nucleus of the Universal brotherhood of humanity... 2) > >The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies and sciences and... > >3) The investigation of the unexplained laws of nature and the psychical > >powers latent in man. > > > >This requires careful study of and meditation on the 'Fundamental > >Principles,' along with the scientific background behind the Cosmogenesis and > >Anthropogenesis that is taught in the Secret Doctrine. Such study leads the > >"intuitive student" toward ferreting out the "mysteries" hidden "within and > >around the words" and "between the lines" -- as he/she follows the Rajah yoga > >path toward ultimately understanding the secret formulas and correlation of > >forces laid out symbolically in the Book of Dzyan. > > > >As you say, when one achieves spiritual enlightenment, one intuitively will > >know the right things to do that is ethical and moral in any situation. But > >theosophy goes much deeper than that. Theosophy is concerned with those that > >have not achieved such enlightenment. And, when situations face one that > >concern the welfare of other having many different and opposing degrees of > >ignorance or false knowledge, one needs much more than good intentions in > >finding what is the right action. As the Buddha said, "Right action requires > >right knowledge." You can't save a drowning person if you can't swim. And, > >trying to help and teach those who are caught up in the ignorance of their > >lower natures and who are suffering the bad karma of materialism, along with > >the depredations brought upon themselves by the lower aspects of their seven > >fold natures -- requires a great deal of theosophical knowledge (and wisdom). > > But Atma (Spirit) alone, in spite of its inherent wisdom, is helpless to act > >effectively without the powers of Buddhi and higher Manas (intuition, memory, > >and mind) -- where such knowledge is stored, and is available to us as a > >guide to our actions. > > > >Only deep study of the theosophical literature can give you this knowledge, > >in order to be able to act correctly with the help of the wisdom gained by > >realization of the Self -- (i.e., Being ONE with the light of the Divine > >Source of all Wisdom which, in itself, cannot act without our gained > >knowledge of this world and the way it works.) Therefore, no matter how much > >one has become spiritually aware, if one doesn't understand the insidious > >power of our lower nature by studying it and its relationship to all seven of > >our inner natures (and those of the Universe, "As above, so below") -- one > >may never overcome it -- and, like the rest of the world, possibly remain the > >victim of it. > > > >So, to find out how all our inner natures function and interrelate -- it's > >essential that one reads and studies all the theosophical books (or listen to > >all the teachers who can explain it). As this is done, linkages will be made > >with whatever we learned and did along these lines in our past lives, and our > >intuition will open the doors to the ancient knowledge of the Adepts -- who > >fully understand, and can utilize, the unexplained laws of nature and the > >psychical powers latent in man. That's the real purpose of the 'Theosophical > >Movement' and its underlying teachings, as written down by HPB, as well as by > >many others in the ancient and modern religious, scientific and philosophical > >literature that she points us to. > > > >So, I admire the intuitive way you have understood and explained the natural > >way to arrive at a realization of the spirit, and also your recognition of > >the need for further study and meditation on the teachings. (which could very > >well indicates a prior life as a theosophical initiate, or Chela). It stands > >to reason, that if one is to devote one's life to be "better able to help and > >teach others," what better way to empower such efforts than by being "in > >love" with the Supreme spirit -- of which we each, as the individual rays of > >its divine energy, are an integral partner. > > > >I hope this helps. > > > >Leon Maurer > > > >http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ > >http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html > > > >-------------------------------- > >In a message dated 2/5/0 2:41:14 AM, rodakjl@pcola.gulf.net writes: > > > > > > Dear Leon - > > > > > > I recently posted this on the BN-basic as my personal thoughts re: "The > > > Path." Perhaps you read it. I had hoped that it would have generated. some > > > feedback, esp. since I was taking a less "bookish" approach to explaining > > > how I, personally, perceived the subject. > > > > > > I have come to respect your > > > observations and comments re: theosophical matters and would welcome > > > your thoughts/critique re: my writeup -- whenever you get a chance. > > > I look forward to your reply. > > > V/R, Jim Rodak > > > > >>Greetings: > > > >I have pondered over the many thoughtful submissions re: "the path" > >and "spirituality" that have recently appeared on this wonderful, > >educational, theosophical website. However, I must confess that > >sometimes I get a sense from reading some of the comments that there are > >respondents who, with genuine sincerity, believe that answers to their > >questions re: "the path"and "spirituality" can be found in some book, from > >dialogue, and/or by conducting their lives in some special way. I do not > >discount the importance of what can be found in theosophical texts, from > >discussions from well-informed theosophical brethren, or in living a noble, > >moral lifestyle but, in my opinion, there is a lot of introspection and > >"pondering" that the Pilgrim has to do in concert with readings, discussions > >and living. Some of my "personal ponderings" re: this matter follow. > > > >I sincerely believe that "The Path" is, in reality, our true. Self, fully > >manifested: an "emanation from the Divine" - if you will - that is an > >integral aspect of our physical being. However, in the process of living > >life, many mortals choose to ignore their Divine nature and acquiesce to > >a life of self-centerdness, sensualism, and acquisitiveness. The Divine > >within then becomes silent: deaf ears having been turned to its still, quiet > >voice, the purpose of which is to guide us toward that which is ethically and > >morally and, yes, spiritually right. > > > >It is also my opinion that we all have the innate ability, freedom and power > >to choose the right course of action in any situation that mortal life > >presents > >us with. Our Divine nature will, if given the chance, speak to us of "the > >right > >thing to do" if only we will take the time to listen intently and simply ask > >our > >true Self, "What is the correct moral and ethical decision that I must make > >in > >this situation?" The answer will be made patently clear if we are sincere in > >our invocation. We must then act, without compromise, reservation or > >equivocation. It is in the listening to and acting upon that inner voice - > >our > >true Self - that we become enlightened as to our Divine nature and purpose in > >life, and that our true Self advances toward, and ultimately returns, whence > >it > >came. > > > >You will then recognize that you are unified with the Presence, the Invisible > >Cause, and have that "intuitive sense of knowing" that you are on the Path. > >I liken it to "being in love." I have never known anyone to have really > >captured > >"the feeling" of being "in love." It is an elusive, indescribable feeling > >that > >escapes being articulated, either in writing or in speach. But there is no > >doubt that when you've "found it", that what you "feel," is "it." So often > >"it" > >is prefaced with the words, "Well, it's like **********." I believe that is > >the way "being on the path" or "experiencing spirituality" is. We can say > >that "[It] is like **********." but, in reality, only by having that > >"intuitive > >sense of knowing" in the depths of our being will we sense that "we've > >arrived." There is no magic checklist, in my view, that will indicate that > >you have finally "arrived" on "the path" or "found spirituality." But you'll > >know and sense it when it happens, when you've found "it." > > > >These are some personal ponderings that I wanted to share with my > >fellow Pilgrims. > > > >I look forward to your comments and thoughts. > > > >Most Respectfully, Jim Rodak>> > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. I'am neophyte ,I tend to agree with Mr.Rodak though.Intuition;gut feeling;right knowledge?I can't articulate the certainity that one feels when a correct and just decision is made;of course depending on each situation similar decisions may have very different consequences. Still after all is said and done we are all on the path to the great outcome?;ofcourse there after probably lies another path.If so I'm looking forward to it and perhaps accompaning you along the way. Sincerely,Scott Holloman -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 7 22:18:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA30682 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:15:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: "Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com" Subject: Theos-World Somatids Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:44:23 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Everybody, One of the negative side effects of being a part-time black magician is the loss of brain cells through ritual drug use, thus my memory is not what it used to be. I recall a time ago reading a Buddhist treatise on cyclic existence and the nature of physical death in the human body, the author related how certain microorganisms in the blood reverse polarity at death so as to consume the body. The life giver becomes the life destroyer - they must be like little mini Brahmas then. Anyway the point - My uncle is in hospital with cancer so I did some research into alternative medicine theories on the nature of cancer and came across some oppressed literature that reminded me of the Buddhist view. It regards the work of Gaston Naessens who claims that the detritus found in human blood is in fact a living amorphous organism called a Somatid. (The SOMA part caught my eye of course). He says that the Somatid normally has a 3-phase life cycle but it can turn into a 16-phase cycle that in fact becomes life destroying rather than sustaining. Thus another doctor also interested in this field has given the organisms the name - Progenitor Cryptocides (the hidden killer that also brings life). Has anybody read anything similar? Any thoughts? n nos s -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 8 19:06:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA06818 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:52:33 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] : Transitions of thought in the World, in ourselves and in Christianity Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf7297$12f5f3c0$b30e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 8 2000 Dear Friends: The MSGS below are very important and interesting. I would like to make some comments as answer, observation and for consideration: As I recall HPB said that mankind did not need any new kind of a Church or "belief system" imposed on them. Look around and witness the imposition of belief systems and their results. Rigidity, conformity and freedom of thought are at opposed extremes. Hence, if true, Theosophy is not a religion but only a philosophy that seeks to be understood and offers (constantly) proofs. Theosophy has never promoted the formation of religious or political bodies of any kind. As a philosophy it exists to assist man in developing clarity of thought by every pointing to the roots of being and the interaction of the whole of Nature. Nature is EVERYTHING. She is a living, vibrating whole. And we are the most sentient aspect of those developments. This is because we are endowed with the powers of the MIND. Potentially we can discover all her secrets. And as such we as scientists, philosophers and psychologists are investigating her methods of cooperation. We already share in them; and our existence is evidence of the marvelous intelligence that guides all things. Additionally, it (Theosophy) will be found to be a history text-book as it reviews the history of our world, universe and the place that mankind occupies in the scheme of things. The whole is a study in evolution. The essential being that evolves is the immortal MONAD. The MONAD is an infinitesimal spec of SPIRIT/MATTER -- a "ray" of the ABSOLUTENESS in manifestation. It is these Monads (see SD I 174-5fn, 618-32) that animate every least atom, as well as Man, and, in fact, in their collectivity, the many monads in evolution make up the ONE MONAD that is EVERYTHING. The Monad is the intelligence, the consciousness, the intuition, the Perception of all events, and finally it is the intelligent agent of nature, always providing new Monads with the kind of "school" where they also can discover and learn the lessons of LIFE. WE are in this Universal School and we are immortals, each incarnation is a "day" of learning in that ever-living School. All "paths" lead to it. Hence, if true, the Masters would certainly not set about establishing some kind of a Church based on theosophy again. WE can all secure the same kind of information from Theosophy if we want it and desire to study and work to acquire it. We are not required to join anything. And whether we do or not, the practice of individual study determines the final eminence of any individual student. Many such students, all working together, give the Theosophical Movement its age-old continuous life. This cooperative work is called the UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD OF ALL BEINGS. Mankind, consisting of thinking units (with minds that are capable of embracing universal concepts and the most minute of the working of Karma) become the body of intelligent cooperators who assist Nature in her many kinds of work. We belong to this group which is headed by the great Buddhas and Teachers of Wisdom down the Ages. (see SD I 570-575). The presentation of Theosophy marks, as I think about it, a change in the method of thinking that humanity ought to gradually adopt. The old way as the acceptance of authority and such "beliefs" or "faiths" as were held out to the masses and the crowds, is passing away. Political and religious freedom have permitted a relaxation of the many kinds of bonds that have traditionally been imposed on the masses of mankind. Each senses this freedom and strives to make use of it. The sense of individuality, and the concept that we can acquire knowledge and wisdom so that we may guide our own future is gaining increased recognition in every part of the world. The new spirit of our age is marked by the dynamism of discovery -- of individual seeking -- of independent demand for "proof." Old values are being questioned and reviewed so that whatever good is there may be culled, harvested and carried forward to grow and provide the fruit and grain of the future. There is an unbroken sequence of thought, and of learning which needs to be seen and used. And it will always be individuals who develop and do this. First individually, and then slowly the accretions will begin of free-thinking minds which need to feed off each others visions and intuitions. The most that one needs is to be able to assure ones' self that what someone else says is TRUE. Are the sources and paths of reasoning being offered for us to recheck by ourselves, so that we may independently assure ourselves of their accuracy? Is anything being "imposed" on us? Are we being treated as reasonable people able to think and discriminate, or, are we again to be treated as children who are expected to "bow before the evident scholarship of authorities and academics -- an should we then parrot the words and ideas of those who claim the "authority" to explain, teach, and impose ? There are many who know far more than we do in a variety of subjects. Is the price we are to pay for their teachings that of servility? Of respect for their claims to ling years of discipline? Or are they going to let us see and know how they arrived at the conclusions that they now offer to us? Consider the teachings of Theosophy. What are they? In SD I 272-3 we are told that they are the fruit of many long years of "checking and verifying the traditions of old." SD I 267, we may read at the top of the page "...the Secret Doctrine teaches history..." and if we look at a number of pages in that great book we find that the theme of history arises again and again. [ The study of History I mentioned. may be found in the SD in: SD I 52 108 229 267 269 272-3 303-4fn 306-7 341 406 425 472 639 640-1 646-7 676 SD II 182 260 311 327 336 351 424 437-448 438 444 711 795-6 . ] Nothing novel is claimed for it. It is not a "Revelation." But what it does is gather together evidence -- and show us how a few great ideas can be traced everywhere in our past -- they are at the root of every philosophy, religion and science, and they have been the subject of investigation, argument, and study by all truly great thinkers down the ages. Theosophy teaches that there is a "College" (ISIS II 98-103) of the WISE. and all Prophets, Reformers, Avatars, Budhas, Dhyan Chohans, etc. are "Brothers," Members of that great Brotherhood of the Wise. They declare that they were once men such as we are, and have graduated (through self-effort and rigorous study an application) into positions of responsibility and power in Nature's vast economy. Look at ISIS UNVEILED. The two volumes are a vast compendium of facts, historical evidence, ancient and contemporary to HPB, of the existence of the secret world which serves as the cause for physical events and phenomena. It shows how desire and thought rule the world and always have. It also shows how they have been abused and employed to make victims of mankind in various ways. Isis was published in 1877 -- 11 years earlier than the Secret Doctrine -- and it paved the way for inquiry into the facts that the SD provided in 1888. Those facts were evoked by the questions that ISIS generated. Students have often said that they would like to know what happened to the 3rd and 4th volumes of the SD. But how can those be made public if the present student body of inquirers into Theosophy do not study what is already provided? Take even so simple a text as THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Is it being seriously studied and are its contents being inquired into? Or does everyone know them well ? As one sees the posting from day to day, it is clear that there is still vast unfamiliarity with even so brief a text. On philosophical and metaphysical points there may be disagreement, but setting that aside, the focus of each such separate source of interest is seen to be similar in range and point of the considerations needed to resolve it. This, to me, points to the areas where there is growth in all our thinking -- we all have this capacity, we each develop it at our own rate of progress. But we need not be compacted into some purely receptive, passive state of "acceptance." We need to be encouraged as individuals to do our own thinking and study. Learning to think is one of the beginning requirements. That is not memory of other's concepts or masses of "data" but rather, the measured and sure process of our own verification of certain statements made. We have to make those ideas "our own," by thinking and reasoning them out. It is very easy to slip into a condition of indifference and passivity, where we allow others to frame opinions, and we through indolence, then adopt them without any critical appraisal. Theosophy desires us to avoid that. Briefly the key ideas, are the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of the SECRET DOCTRINE and can be found in SD I 14-19. Everything else is derived from them. The rest of the SD provides evidence that gives reason to the facts and processes of Nature. This we are invited to verify. Best wishes, Dallas ======================= dalval@nwc.net -----Original Message----- From: Teos9@aol.com [mailto:Teos9@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 6:50 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: Transitions of Christianity In a message dated 02/07/00 4:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, carson@blavatsky.net writes: << A long-time Theosophist once said to me "The masters can pull the rug out from under Christianity at any time. They don't because they want something to be ready and in place before they do." >> Fascinating idea Reed. That would make the real work of theosophy within the last 125 years even more esoteric than many suspect. The notion that one of the by-products of the spread of Theosophy, both popular and classical, would be to create a deeper spirtiual/religious underpinning seems to be supported by the ever changing face of traditional Christianity. Where is the single original St. James version of the bible that was the common study reference of most English speaking Christians even up thru the 50's and 60's? How many new, or significantly edited and revised versions of twentieth century bibles are there? When was the last Catholic Mass heard in its original Latin, instead of, liberally translated forms of English? How does Charismatic Catholicism accommodate speaking in tongues, when in traditional Catholicism it was a considered a form of possession? One could go on like this for a long time, pointing to the many changes in traditional Christianity that your post here indicates, as the expected observable phenomena that might attend any period of major dramatic transition. The Idea that we have been in the midst of a shifting spiritual awareness, as one of the goals, of the those that guide humanity on its evolutionary path, is filled with intuitive power and insight. Thanks for sharing. Louis Think Deity...... Deity, thinks you! -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 8 21:35:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id VAA21000 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:25:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <002901bf72ac$9726b160$84b47ed8@computer> From: "bharata" To: References: <000101bf7297$12f5f3c0$b30e97cf@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] : Transitions of thought in the World, in ourselves and in Christianity Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:20:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com . > The Idea that we have been in the midst of a shifting spiritual > awareness, as > one of the goals, of the those that guide humanity on its > evolutionary path, > is filled with intuitive power and insight. Thanks for sharing. > > Louis re: "in the midst of a shifting spiritual awareness..." A story: In 1967, the retired Abbot of the oldest Zen monastary in Japan, the only one admitting no foreigners, visited my teacher and I was privileged to sit-in on several of their sessions. The Abbot was 'wise,' and very childlike, spoke no English at all, had a translator. In comiserating with my teacher about having to be among heathens in 'the West,' he commented, to paraphrase: Bodhidharma brought the 'spirit' of Zen to Japan. It took it over 200 years to develop a 'form,' which we today call 'Zen.' That 'spirit of Zen' has left Japan and is now in the West, specifically in the USA, which is why you (my teacher) have to be here. (When asked if 'it' would assume the same 'form' here, he replied, laughingly), "No, it will not, and the 'form' it will take will not begin to reveal itself for quite a long time." This story came to mind in reading your post above. All the best, Barrett Culmback -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 9 11:57:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id LAA23527 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:53:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <006a01bf732f$8eb75560$d209c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World Daniel H. Caldwell Replies to Some of K. Paul Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:57:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Several persons have requested copies of my follow-up reply to K. Paul Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks to my "House of Cards" critique on Johnson's thesis about the Theosophical Mahatmas. My follow-up reply (which is now slightly revised and updated) is on the WWW at: http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/johnsonparanormal.htm Methinks Johnson Has "Shot" Himself in the "Foot": Daniel H. Caldwell Replies to Some of K. Paul Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks This paper is divided into two parts: > Part I > Johnson's "Definition" of the Paranormal and Its Bearing > on Henry S. Olcott's Accounts of the Theosophical Masters > > Part II > The Fallacy in Another Johnsonian Argument The above is also available thru Blavatsky Net at: http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson.htm > K. PAUL JOHNSON'S HOUSE OF CARDS?: > A CRITICAL EXAMINATION OF JOHNSON'S THESIS ON > THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS MORYA AND KOOT HOOMI > > by Daniel H. Caldwell -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 9 20:45:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA22623 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:37:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38A224FD.6DF7@wworld.com> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:39:57 -0800 From: scott holloman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] : Transitions of thought in the World, in ourselves and in Christianity References: <000101bf7297$12f5f3c0$b30e97cf@nwc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > Feb 8 2000 > > Dear Friends: > > The MSGS below are very important and interesting. I would like > to make some comments as answer, observation and for > consideration: > > As I recall HPB said that mankind did not need any new kind of a > Church or "belief system" imposed on them. Look around and > witness the imposition of belief systems and their results. > Rigidity, conformity and freedom of thought are at opposed > extremes. Hence, if true, Theosophy is not a religion but only a > philosophy that seeks to be understood and offers (constantly) > proofs. > > Theosophy has never promoted the formation of religious or > political bodies of any kind. As a philosophy it exists to > assist man in developing clarity of thought by every pointing to > the roots of being and the > interaction of the whole of Nature. Nature is EVERYTHING. She > is a living, vibrating whole. And we are the most sentient > aspect of those developments. This is because we are endowed > with the powers of the MIND. Potentially we can discover all her > secrets. And as such we as scientists, philosophers and > psychologists are investigating her methods of cooperation. We > already share in them; and our existence is evidence of the > marvelous intelligence that guides all things. > > Additionally, it (Theosophy) will be found to be a history > text-book as it reviews the history of our world, universe and > the place that mankind occupies in the scheme of things. The > whole is a study in evolution. The essential being that evolves > is the immortal MONAD. The MONAD is an infinitesimal spec of > SPIRIT/MATTER -- a "ray" of the ABSOLUTENESS in manifestation. > It is these Monads (see SD I 174-5fn, 618-32) that animate every > least atom, as well as Man, and, in fact, in their collectivity, > the many monads in evolution make up the ONE MONAD that is > EVERYTHING. > > The Monad is the intelligence, the consciousness, the intuition, > the Perception of all events, and finally it is the intelligent > agent of nature, always providing new Monads with the kind of > "school" where they also can discover and learn the lessons of > LIFE. WE are in this Universal School and we are immortals, each > incarnation is a "day" of learning in that ever-living School. > All "paths" lead to it. > > Hence, if true, the Masters would certainly not set about > establishing some kind of a Church based on theosophy again. WE > can all secure the same kind of information from Theosophy if we > want it and desire to study and work to acquire it. We are not > required to join anything. And whether we do or not, the practice > of individual study determines the final eminence of any > individual student. Many such students, all working together, > give the Theosophical Movement its age-old continuous life. > > This cooperative work is called the UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD OF ALL > BEINGS. Mankind, consisting of thinking units (with minds that > are capable of embracing universal concepts and the most minute > of the working of Karma) become the body of intelligent > cooperators who assist Nature in her many kinds of work. We > belong to this group which is headed by the great Buddhas and > Teachers of Wisdom down the Ages. (see SD I 570-575). > > The presentation of Theosophy marks, as I think about it, a > change in the method of thinking that humanity ought to gradually > adopt. The old way as the acceptance of authority and such > "beliefs" or "faiths" as were held out to the masses and the > crowds, is passing away. Political and religious freedom have > permitted a relaxation of the many kinds of bonds that have > traditionally been imposed on the masses of mankind. Each senses > this freedom and strives to make use of it. The sense of > individuality, and the concept that we can acquire knowledge and > wisdom so that we may guide our own future is gaining increased > recognition in every part of the world. > > The new spirit of our age is marked by the dynamism of > discovery -- of individual seeking -- of independent demand for > "proof." Old values are being questioned and reviewed so that > whatever good is there may be culled, harvested and carried > forward to grow and provide the fruit and grain of the future. > There is an unbroken sequence of thought, and of learning which > needs to be seen and used. And it will always be individuals who > develop and do this. First individually, and then slowly the > accretions will begin of free-thinking minds which need to feed > off each others visions and intuitions. > > The most that one needs is to be able to assure ones' self that > what someone else says is TRUE. Are the sources and paths of > reasoning being offered for us to recheck by ourselves, so that > we may independently assure ourselves of their accuracy? Is > anything being "imposed" on us? Are we being treated as > reasonable people able to think and discriminate, or, are we > again to be treated as children who are expected to "bow before > the evident scholarship of authorities and academics -- an should > we then parrot the words and ideas of those who claim the > "authority" to explain, teach, and impose ? > > There are many who know far more than we do in a variety of > subjects. Is the price we are to pay for their teachings that of > servility? Of respect for their claims to ling years of > discipline? Or are they going to let us see and know how they > arrived at the conclusions that they now offer to us? > > Consider the teachings of Theosophy. What are they? In SD I > 272-3 we are told that they are the fruit of many long years of > "checking and verifying the traditions of old." SD I 267, we may > read at the top of the page "...the Secret Doctrine teaches > history..." and if we look at a number of pages in that great > book we find that the theme of history arises again and again. > > [ The study of History I mentioned. may be found in the SD in: > > SD I 52 108 229 267 269 272-3 303-4fn 306-7 341 406 425 472 639 > 640-1 646-7 676 > > SD II 182 260 311 327 336 351 424 437-448 438 444 711 795-6 . ] > > Nothing novel is claimed for it. It is not a "Revelation." But > what it does is gather together evidence -- and show us how a few > great ideas can be traced everywhere in our past -- they are at > the root of every philosophy, religion and science, and they have > been the subject of investigation, argument, and study by all > truly great thinkers down the ages. > > Theosophy teaches that there is a "College" (ISIS II 98-103) of > the WISE. and all Prophets, Reformers, Avatars, Budhas, Dhyan > Chohans, etc. are "Brothers," Members of that great Brotherhood > of the Wise. They declare that they were once men such as we > are, and have graduated (through self-effort and rigorous study > an application) into positions of responsibility and power in > Nature's vast economy. > > Look at ISIS UNVEILED. The two volumes are a vast compendium of > facts, historical evidence, ancient and contemporary to HPB, of > the existence of the secret world which serves as the cause for > physical events and phenomena. It shows how desire and thought > rule the world and always have. It also shows how they have been > abused and employed to make victims of mankind in various ways. > Isis was published in 1877 -- 11 years earlier than the Secret > Doctrine -- and it paved the way for inquiry into the facts that > the SD provided in 1888. Those facts were evoked by the > questions that ISIS generated. > > Students have often said that they would like to know what > happened to the 3rd and 4th volumes of the SD. But how can those > be made public if the present student body of inquirers into > Theosophy do not study what is already provided? > > Take even so simple a text as THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Is it being > seriously studied and are its contents being inquired into? Or > does everyone know them well ? As one sees the posting from day > to day, it is clear that there is still vast unfamiliarity with > even so brief a text. > > On philosophical and metaphysical points there may be > disagreement, but setting that aside, the focus of each such > separate source of interest is seen to be similar in range and > point of the considerations needed to resolve it. > > This, to me, points to the areas where there is growth in all our > thinking -- we all have this capacity, we each develop it at our > own rate of progress. But we need not be compacted into some > purely receptive, passive state of "acceptance." We need to be > encouraged as individuals to do our own thinking and study. > Learning to think is one of the beginning requirements. That is > not memory of other's concepts or masses of "data" but rather, > the measured and sure process of our own verification of certain > statements made. We have to make those ideas "our own," by > thinking and reasoning them out. > > It is very easy to slip into a condition of indifference and > passivity, where we allow others to frame opinions, and we > through indolence, then adopt them without any critical > appraisal. Theosophy desires us to avoid that. > > Briefly the key ideas, are the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of the SECRET > DOCTRINE and can be found in SD I 14-19. Everything else is > derived from them. The rest of the SD provides evidence that > gives reason to the facts and processes of Nature. This we are > invited to verify. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ======================= > > dalval@nwc.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teos9@aol.com [mailto:Teos9@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 6:50 AM > To: study@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-study] Re: Transitions of Christianity > > In a message dated 02/07/00 4:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > carson@blavatsky.net writes: > > << A long-time Theosophist > once said to me "The masters can pull the rug out from under > Christianity at > any time. They don't because they want something to be ready > and in place > before they do." >> > > Fascinating idea Reed. That would make the real work of theosophy > within the > last 125 years even more esoteric than many suspect. The notion > that one of > the by-products of the spread of Theosophy, both popular and > classical, would > be to create a deeper spirtiual/religious underpinning seems to > be supported > by the ever changing face of traditional Christianity. Where is > the single > original St. James version of the bible that was the common study > reference > of most English speaking Christians even up thru the 50's and > 60's? How many > new, or significantly edited and revised versions of twentieth > century bibles > are there? When was the last Catholic Mass heard in its original > Latin, > instead of, liberally translated forms of English? How does > Charismatic > Catholicism accommodate speaking in tongues, when in traditional > Catholicism > it was a considered a form of possession? One could go on like > this for a > long time, pointing to the many changes in traditional > Christianity that your > post here indicates, as the expected observable phenomena that > might attend > any period of major dramatic transition. > > The Idea that we have been in the midst of a shifting spiritual > awareness, as > one of the goals, of the those that guide humanity on its > evolutionary path, > is filled with intuitive power and insight. Thanks for sharing. > > Louis > > Think Deity...... > Deity, thinks you! > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. Oh ,yes I would agree with this.It has always been a feeling in the back of my mind that we were BORN individuals for a reason;that reason may be that we have a unique contribution to make to the brother hood of human kind?Blindly following is limiting I believe ,but then I do not profess to be wise.This path is one that I'm glad to be traversing with all humans. Scott -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 11 21:29:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id VAA13275 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:11:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: Theos-World RE: DTB = Monads, Karma, the Astral Planes -- Some Responses to Dallas Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:59:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf7505$31768380$160e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 11th 2000 Dallas Responds: Physical and non-physical -- astral, psychic, mental "spiritual" planes, and their components of force and of form are looked into by Theosophy As far as I can think, the MONAD is not a physical thing. We cannot ascribe to it the limits we accept in dealing with our present physical matter and its properties and conditions. Although it is called Monad (One -- as a "ray" of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- ATMAN), yet, in manifestation its link to "matter" is through a corresponding portion of PRIMORDIAL MATTER (Maha-Buddhi) or Buddhi. Thus the Monad is, in manifestation, Atma-Buddhi -- a "duad." But further, the need to provide a link between it and the grossest embodiment of "form" as our kind of "matter," requires a "thread" over which the Divine Intelligence may descend as a 'reflection' into the refined physical and astral matter of the "brain." In this way arises Kama-Manas or the "Lower Mind." It is linked to the personality and its desires and passions (Kama) as these are mirrored in our "matter." Thus allied to the Monad ATMA-BUDDHI is Manas (the Higher Mind). The Mind-Intelligence embodied and present in Mankind is thus a "triple" MONAD : Atma-Buddhi-Manas. (see SD I 243-248, 174-5fn, 570-74 619-34) This is the Eternal Pilgrim, the eternal, immortal Reincarnating Ego. Of course this is very theoretical. But on an understanding of these ideas the structure of the Universe and of man can be seen to correspond. Hence, the MONAD, being metaphysical -- a Power, Force, Energy, and an Intelligence, the concept of SIZE is not relevant at all. Even our current Science, in considering force-fields, places no limits on their range of influence, although it is theorized that the further away one gets the weaker the effect is. Which is true for electro-magnetic physical matter, or the propagation of wave energy through a physical medium -- such as we know these. And yet there is evidence to show that the range of thought or emotion/desire is not affected in power by distance or time. But what do we know of Astral mater -- of which there are 7 grades and aspects? What of akasa? Theosophy gives us some description of their qualities and capacities, as to being the "model, or frame-work" on which the physical phenomena of weight, size, density, state, chemical and physical qualities and relationships are based. Where we are ignorant is the exact way of perceiving this "astral matter" and dealing with it as an essential component of Nature -- used constructively by her as a basis for physical "things." HPB addresses this in her article OCCULT OR EXACT SCIENCE (Theosophist, April, May 1886 -- ULT HPB Articles, II pp. 46-74; see also: HPB--THE NEGATORS OF SCIENCE, Lucifer, April 1891, ULT HPB Articles II pp. 75-90.) This is perhaps just as well, since we deal with ourselves and the matter that we know with our 5 senses selfishly. We abuse it. If we were able to perceive and handle astral matter what would we do to it? It is probably just as well that we (as modern Science does), have been taught to deride the concept. We are not ready for it, as we do not even understand how and why Karma operates (even theoretically). The study of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY will give us all a better basis from which to grasp this all-embracing concept of the hidden and all-potent forces on a plane of Nature that interpenetrates ours at all places and times, and in fact is constantly modifying it. This is why the power of thought, desire and will are said to be the most powerful forces that man is able to learn about and control. But this cannot be done with success from a selfish point of view. Anything less than complete harmlessness, brotherhood and altruism beings ruin in its wake. We ought to also consider that the Monads (elementals) which are affected by our feelings, desires, thoughts and will, form the basis for our future Karma. We give (through the quality of our motives) shape and power to them, and in turn when the right cyclic time comes, they return to us bringing advantages or disadvantages in our lives. Once we have our own moral natures under control, no doubt the realm of the astral plane will begin to open before us. It will do so naturally because we will no longer have the urge of curiosity to analyse, destroy or subjugate it. We will be able to perceive that it follows its own laws and does it so own work, and, being satisfied, we will also pursue our work in the area of its responsibility and duty, leaving to nature the work of coordination that she already does so well, and as at present, in spite of our active interference and destructive tendencies. In the SD (I 251 258) we find that HPB hints at this. What is the power of thought which transcends distance? What is the power of desire that leads mankind to eminence, greatness, or to the ignominy of personal and selfish power that affects millions? (see HPB--THE UNIVERSE IN A NUTSHELL, Theosophist, Jan. 1882, ULT HPB Articles II pp. 290-300.) All these are the areas that Theosophy leads us to consider. I hope that this may lead to more thought along these lines. Mr. Judge in his articles ( available "on line" through BLAVATSKY.NET) offers a number of articles on the nature of Karma, and the close relations of Elementals (Monads) to our desires and thoughts -- as they are the "carriers" of our karma and also affect others. Dallas dalval@nwc.net ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Hazarapet Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 4:38 AM Subject: Re: Some Responses to Dallas In a message dated 2/9/00 5:45:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, G. Schueler writes: > the word "infinitesimal" doesn't > make any sense. The monad is, after all, infinite The words "infinitesimal" and "infinite" are too closely inter-connected in a variety of ways to make this contrast intelligible as it stands. And the common meaning behind their various associated meanings and each other is "that which somehow eludes or transcends the finite, hence, in-finite." Space and time, as continuums, the continuum of real numbers, are both infinite in different ways and infinitesimal in different ways. For example, real magnitudes are infinitely divisible (infinitesimal) and infinite in that + any magnitude can be added to the last know highest magnitude. Number is infinitesimal and infinite because it eludes, escapes, and transcends any finite analysis/procedure. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 12 01:33:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA07027 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:24:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <003301bf7532$9ebd8ba0$d909c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World Blavatsky Archives Online additions Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:24:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm The following items have been added today to the archives: ** "A Miracle Worker of To-Day." [Reprinted from the Pall Mall Gazette (London), April 21, 1884, p. 6.] ** "The Secret Doctrine" by Henry S. Olcott. [Reprinted from The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), January 1889, pp. 247-249.] ** "Esoteric Teaching" by A.P. Sinnett. [Reprinted from The Path (New York), September 1893, pp. 166-172.] ** "Mme. Blavatsky's Disciples." [First published in the Boston Evening Herald, April 27, 1895.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 12 14:08:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id NAA02995 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:58:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: Theos-World RE: Some Responses to Dallas Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:48:45 -0800 Message-ID: <000301bf7592$2eb5bac0$500e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 12TH AS I SEE IT THE ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEOSOPHY AND CHURCH APPLICATION OF JESUS' TEACHINGS IS: In theosophy one is asked to think for themselves. In the Churches one's thinking is molded. If you want to adopt another's' errors without testing, choose. At least in Theosophy you are given an option to study, learn and if you desire make your own mistakes while all the time testing to see if the description given there of the processes in nature are valid. If "Christians" actually respected, honored and practiced the teachings of JESUS, then we would have a far better world than the hypocritical present and the selfish, sorrowful mess we are all in -- and it is we who agree to compound the situation by doing very little about rectifying it. If Christianity a la Jesus were truly adopted our present methods would be stopped and bent into the amelioration of the world as a whole and of the many millions whose gentle passivity is daily and hourly imposed on. Best wishes, Dal dalval@nwc.net =========================== -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:07 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re: Some Responses to Dallas > DTB THE TRUTH ALWAYS CONTAINS THE POTENTIAL OF THE >FALSE. that > does not mean or imply that the false is to be encouraged or > promoted for whatever reason. On the other hand, it does mean that the false is as real as the true and just as immortal. The primary reason that I left Christian Science is that they all wanted to hang onto the true and throw away the false, and when I realized that this is an impossible task, I left. > DTB As I read the SD the sky is the limit. Regardless of > whatever present step the average mankind may be on, there are > infinite. possibilities. Agreed. We can persue manas development as 5th Rounders are doing right now, or we can transcend manas altogether and become 6th Rounders, or transcend buddhi-manas and become 7th Rounders. The choice is ours. > DTB IN A MORE RECENT POST I GAVE A LIST OF THE RELEVANT PAGES IN > SD TO THE MATTER OF HISTORY. Teh whole of the Sd is a history > text-book. If all Theosophists beleived this, the SD would soon become a Bible and the whole movement would cease. I see the SD in the same terms as the Bible - hints and allagories. DTB Only if one does not get at the basic sense of THEOSOPHY. It is not a belief system and requires no "true believers." It enfranchises the mind and demands honesty, diligence and great attention if one is to master the laws and truths already present in Nature. It deals wit the history of the discoveries of Nature's treasures and rules. It places Man (mind) of the pinnacle of unselfish discovery and selfless application -- this is a MORAL UNIVERSE and karma is the rule of cooperation. For our minds we start with BROTHERHOOD. One this is grasped, everything else follows. We have to learn to be totally independent. WE can use the evidence of others' progress and advance ourselves but we cannot accept anything blindly or we may make grave errors that will cost many years of effort to rectify. --------------------------- >> The doctrine of monads is probably the most confusing and >> most misleading in all of the topics in Theosophical literature. > > DTB Well we must disagree as I think that it explains Karma and > our individual progress very well indeed. Without that the > Universe would be quite difficult to understand. We may, in fact, disagree here, but I notice that you sometimes call atma-buddhi a ray and sometime equate it with the monad as though you weren't sure which it is. In your post of 2/12/00 you wrote "Thus the Monad is, in manifestation, Atma-Buddhi -- a "duad." " which is exactly right - the atma-buddi is a manifestation of the monad, not the monad itself. DTB HPB in the SD calls it both things as there she tries to get us to do our own thinking. It is a "ray" of the ATMA which uses Buddhi to contact the "material" universe. Buddhi is the highest aspect of Matter - MULAPRAKRITI and MAHABUDDHI are one. Atma requires the assistance of Buddhi. Buddhi is primordial matter. Atma is the One Monad and is for us a "ray" of the ATMAN. The Monad in manifestation is DUAL as it cannot act or perceive in matter without the necessary link of Buddhi. Atma-Buddhi cannot act and influence matter (made up of inexperienced Monads -- skandhas, elementals, "little lives," etc...) unless MANAS (mind) is employed as a link from Buddhi to Kama. Hence the MONAD becomes TRIPLE when the human mind is "lit" up (18 million years ago -- SD) in the assembled elements of the "personality" -- this personality being headed by another "monad" that is now ready to have the mental faculty awakened in it. As I read it, that in summary, is what the SD teaches. ------------------- > DTB THE MONAD is an immortal Unit of ATMA-BUDDHI. Here you equate the monad with atma-buddhi. Atma-Buddhi is a duality. The Monad is non-dualistic. They are not the same. DT REFER TO DERIVATION ABOVE. > It draws to > itself the experiences that allow its intelligence and > consciousness to grow, and in so doing if also draws to itself > other Monads of lesser experience. Here is a good example of exactly what I mean when I say that the teaching of the monad is confusing and misleading. The Monad is defined by HPB as a non-dualistic consciousness center and a spark of divinity. How can such a thing possibly need to "grow" and how can such a thing have "lesser experience?" Your statement above is illogical and misleads the reader. It is only the manifestations on the lower planes that need growth and can be ranked as higher or lesser. DTB HPB SAYS THAT IN ENGLISH THE EXACT WORDS NEEDED TO EXPRESS YOUR QUESTIONS AND ANSWER THEM DO NOT EXISTS. OF COURSE AS IN SD I 174-5 fn, the Monad is not affected by what occurs around it, and yet paradoxically it serves as a center of attraction within its field all the progress of manifestation and development of various kinds and levels of consciousness occur -- leading eventually to the differentiation of a "son" or a Lower Manasic being which can be "lit up" at the right time by the indwelling MONAD -- acting as the HIGHER SELF. This is what I am able to secure from the study of the SD. Then, as expressed above, the Monad (singular) operates through its "descending" powers and faculties (Monad as dual, and then triple) to animate and perceive the working of "us" (intelligence, consciousness, mind) at the level and plane of the physical world we live in -- which is "kama-manas or the personal embodied mind. But the Minds are not separate. There is One Thread that unites them all. --------------------- > The Dhyani Buddha of > today was the lowly monad elemental or mineral of the distant > past, Here is another example of a misleading and confusing statement. This kind of statement is illogical and false. Rather, the Monad that is expressing itself as a Dhyani Buddha today expressed itself as a mineral in the distant past. The mineral does not become the animal except in a poetic sense. You consistantly confuse manifestations with monads - which is exactly what HPB and all the other Theosophcal writers do as well, and it is terribly misleading and confusing. DTB OF COURSE I SEE WHY IT IS SO TO YOU, BUT DIFFERENTLY FOR ME. I try to place value on concepts and not on descriptive words, and vary them as needed -- and that is what HPB does, as I understand it. It really is not confusing if one assembles all the various definitions and the situations in which they are described, because then they can be seen as a whole. If we have 7 principles and that basic seven are reflected in each of the rest , we are at least dealing with 49 variants. I say this not to cloud the issue, but merely because they exist. Each of us uses a particular aspect of themselves to approach the SD and we need to be able to adopt any one of the 7 points of view to get at the whole picture offered. this is rally not meant to be additionally confusing, but only to state the mind of obstacles that I have had to overcome. -------------------------- > DTB INFINITESIMAL, because it is dimensionless and as you say it > is an influence rather that a something. and yet it is spirit > and Primordial matte conjoined. a paradox no doubt. > Yes, a paradox. Jerry S. Best wishes again, Dal ========================================= --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: DALVAL@NWC.NET List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-539B@list.vnet.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 12 19:26:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA23744 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:21:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf75bf$ca9c2fa0$979ab2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: Subject: Theos-World books Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:29:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7543.FAEC1DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7543.FAEC1DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to read more on the = subject. I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House catalog, Quest = Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] and = ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by = Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them. Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked for some of the = works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find anything by = him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American Section. I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, who had a vested = interest in presenting the matter from his point of view. I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) are published = by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, I don't find any = of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is those printed prior = to 1910. Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web site for them? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7543.FAEC1DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I find all this very interesting, and makes me = want to=20 read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  [Theosophical = Publishing House=20 catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org]  and = ordered 3=20 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by Boris = de=20 Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them.
 
Then, from the discussions and writings here, I = looked for=20 some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find = anything=20 by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American=20 Section.
 
I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY = LEAVES, who=20 had a vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of=20 view.
 
I conclude that those books (If they are still = in print)=20 are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house.
 
Looking through all the Theosophical books that = I have, I=20 don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is = those=20 printed prior to 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, = and web site=20 for them?
 
Dennis
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7543.FAEC1DE0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 12 21:17:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA25137 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:55:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01bf75cc$6deba080$54b47ed8@computer> From: "bharata" To: References: <000301bf75bf$ca9c2fa0$979ab2d1@denniski> Subject: Re: Theos-World books Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:45:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF7589.5EA36880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF7589.5EA36880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/63631087. Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Theos-World books I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to read more on = the subject. I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House catalog, Quest = Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] and = ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by = Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them. Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked for some of the = works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find anything by = him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American Section. I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, who had a = vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of view. I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) are published = by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, I don't find = any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is those printed = prior to 1910. Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web site for them? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF7589.5EA36880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through = Theosophy=20 Company, Los Angeles.
 
 
 
ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/6363108= 7.
Interested=20 in 'Consciousness'? Go To:
http://www.egrou= ps.com/group/I2c2much/info.html.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis=20 Kier
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2000 10:29=20 AM
Subject: Theos-World = books

I find all this very interesting, and makes me = want to=20 read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  [Theosophical = Publishing=20 House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org]  = and ordered=20 3 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by = Boris de=20 Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them.
 
Then, from the discussions and writings here, = I looked=20 for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't = find=20 anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away = American=20 Section.
 
I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY = LEAVES,=20 who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of=20 view.
 
I conclude that those books (If they are still = in print)=20 are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing = house.
 
Looking through all the Theosophical books = that I have,=20 I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is = those=20 printed prior to 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, = and web=20 site for them?
 
Dennis
 
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF7589.5EA36880-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 15 08:41:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA18444 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:23:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re:STUDYING THEOSOPHY: February 08, 2000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 06:18:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf77bf$7d4b29c0$4b0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 15 Dear Tony: All your observations have value. No I did not mean that one ought to start the study of Theosophy in the KEY there. I mean only to say that one could begin to look up the subject of man's principles and consciousness around those pages. The study of the Mind (MANAS) is far vaster one than one usually realizes -- and yet it ought to be done because we are all essentially "MIND-BEINGS." This could give access to discovery and knowing what one's mental potentials and faculties are and then seeing how we can make them work for us. In doing this the nature of the Monad (the REAL PERSON - ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) as an Eternal Pilgrim becomes revealed. Next if we are eternal students, and each life is a "class-'day'" then there is the moral implication that arises -- what are the consequences of leaning and applying? Who is affected by our desires, thoughts, acts? Ourselves, primarily, and secondarily others which whom we live and move. I mention these things because this in NOT a dry and simply logical, mental exercise and inquiry, but because the answers we arrive at will modify our whole approach to living. This as I wee it, is important. We have so far established a personality. It is US. But Theosophy makes us see that it is NOT the REAL "US." At that the personal "US" rebels (usually it does not desire to be unpleasantly and perhaps painfully modified into a new channel of discipline, of study, and of living. There is a "war" declared; and usually it is directed at the intruder: Theosophical ideas and ideals. In the main, if each of us mentally reviews their progress in the study and application of Theosophy, they will have noticed the following: The disturbed personality (US living in our past memories and habits) does not desire to be modified. Who wins? Does the power of the reasonableness of theosophical concepts prevail or fail ? The embodied mind that is the base of our personality now steps in: ARE THEY REAL ? How do we PROVE them to be either false or real? If they do prove to be real, then when and how do we begin and continue to use and apply them? Our power of imagination and fancy are involved. Who will suffer? Are we going to make others suffer because we adopt disciplines that they will not understand? Are we going to stop some of our enjoyments, to make room for an arduous and perhaps fruitless study? Etc., etc., ... It would be indeed difficult to start with that information and no preliminary familiarization with the whole field and structure of Theosophy. In many ways our educational patterns have only given us a basis of memory -- we have been stuffed with data and have had little training in how to use it. Mathematics like logic tend to develop in us some power of logical thought. In Theosophy we deal with the following: We are immortals. The body dies and we reincarnate. Our acts produce moral effects that affect us and others. Thee effects do not vanish. Their effects will return in this life's future or in life. How then doe we tailor our living so as to make our future more pleasant? How do we settle any past debts? What are our true responsibilities in living? We may see from these questions that our thinking enters a whole new field, and it has it rules and laws and assumptions. Theosophy deals with those and because it does, it seems difficult and strange to some who approach it. How are we to make those reasonable? Perhaps we ought to recognize that at our core we know that Theosophy is not strange and that it only deals with our environment and personal situation as it REALLY IS. That we have been deluded up to now is a possibility. It remains to prove whether that is so or not. The inner recognition of the value of the Theosophical ideals is something that ought to be looked into. It may be labeled intuitive or instinctual, but then, why do we have it ? That is why we have the pages in the KEY that go before those I mention, they lead up to that. If we wand to start we ought really to start with the 3 FUNDAMENTALS (SD I 14-19) But if we open the SD we ought to first do what Comdr. Bowen suggests and that is to read what HPB writes about the scope and purpose of the SD -- which is the scope and purpose of Theosophy. You are quite correct that in Basic one needs to have at least a preliminary outline of the subjects to be covered (generally) and the methods exposed, that have shown themselves to be useful for students to consider in approaching it. I would not go so far as to say that the study of THEOSOPHY is "difficult." It does require a careful approach. Perhaps the most difficult of all things is the fact that there are no "teachers," or "leaders per se. Each of us being an immortal SPIRITUAL SOUL has to be left free to make his own decisions and choose his own path, and make his course fast or slow according to his choices. The sudden dawning of this "freedom and responsibility" concept can be quite shattering -- as we (as persons) suddenly loose those props that have so far bolstered our personality -- up to the present. Shall we work at preparing such an outline? First a pathway, and show what the goals might be, then a list of readings that would lead to the kind of mental preparation that would be most suited to study ? I think there is great merit in your proposal. Several cold work on this together and bring up a good outline of main principles and procedures that would prove useful for students to consider in their future work. Nothing rigid, only suggestions, as each will invariably decide what they will do fist and how to guide their own progress. Of course the Higher Triad (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is the permanent INDIVIDUALITY, the Spiritual Person. And the Quarternary is called "lower" because it presently serves as the basis for work an-- and it provides the vehicles: body, astral body, life-principle, and Kama-desire and passions. But even there we ought to remember that the lower 4 - the "personality" is composed of Monads who are undergoing experience as potential mind-beings (humans of a future Manvanatara) and which Nature has presently entrusted to our guidance. How do you think we ought to proceed? Best wishes, Dallas ---------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Tony [mailto:alpha@dircon.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:13 PM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] Re: bn-basic digest: February 08, 2000 Dallas writes: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> Studying THEOSOPHY is very difficult, and this can be seen by the real difficulties members of the Theosophical Society have in their attempts to understand it, even at the time of HPB and the Masters. A trained mountaineer finds difficulties, and a too high proportion of those who attempt to climb Everest plunge to their deaths. It is those very difficulties which attract some. The Masters said to Sinnett on several occasions to be Patient. Why? Even his wife was called Patience. What this is leading up to Dallas, is how is the newcomer to Theosophy to go to pages 91 to 176 of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY and start studying it? It seems, at times, by studying THE SECRET DOCTRINE, it is then that we can begin to appreciate what an incredible work THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY is. To turn to your suggested starting page 91 of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, what at first stands out is THEOSOPHICAL DIVISION....the LOWER QUARTERNARY...on the LOWER part of the page. This table(s) is divided in to 3 columns, why 3? To a person just coming to Theosophy, what is the lower quarternary? How are we to get some understanding of what it is, as it has an iron grip on our lives? We can see how a term such as "Astral body" can be very confusing. How the term has come to mean a combination of different things. If we study the evolution of the races within THE SECRET DOCTRINE we can begin to have some glimmerings of its origins. Those races, as those huge astral type bodies (now compact), are still with us. They are BECOMING...as are the future races. The real gem is TURNING the "page" - to page 92. The act of turning the page. Can we turn too? Because literally, on the UPPER part of page 92, Is THE UPPER IMPERISHABLE TRIAD. That is, what we are. It is a suitable title: bn-basic. Where are we based? In the upper imperishable triad, or in the lower quarternary? Is Atma/Spirit the basis of all? When we first come to pages 91/92 of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY we are much more likely to think, why on earth is this table/tables on 2 pages, it would have been so much easier if it/they were all on the same page, so that we didn't have to turn backwards and forwards while we are trying to grapple with completely new ideas and concepts, and all those Sanscrit terms, etc. Much the attitude of the lower quarternary. It is to the upper imperishable triad we turn. You mention the THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY many times in your mails and it would be good if it were possible to study THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY on bn-basic as we would then have Theosophy, in an ordered and natural way, as the basis of what we are studying. The subjects flow naturally from one to the other and its beneficent effects flow as the cool breezes of soul wisdom...a true sense of BECOMING... Tony -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 16 18:27:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA12587 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:11:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: "Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com" Subject: Theos-World Battlefield Earth Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:37:13 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In an oblique theosophical reference - Yesterday I saw a piece on the upcoming film version of 'Battlefield Earth' by infamous scientology and Dianetics founder L. Ron Hubbard. This film has been promised ever since the book came out, but the sheer logistics and financing required have not been available until now - and who should be playing the lead role but none other than current scientology hero John Travolta. Of course the theopshical point I want to make is irrelevant unless anybody has read the book - so I won't bother going on unless someone has read the book (it is supposedly the longest Science Fiction book ever). n nos s -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 16 18:28:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA13967 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:22:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf78dc$42557be0$8414f4d8@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <000301bf75bf$ca9c2fa0$979ab2d1@denniski> <001e01bf75cc$6deba080$54b47ed8@computer> Subject: Re: Theos-World books Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:11:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF77D7.C248FB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF77D7.C248FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bharata=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. =20 =20 Thanks for the references. The first one wasn't operating, and said = that the page couldn't be displayed. The second one came up fine, but = said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" page. That is not quite what I = had in mind when I asked about where I could find the Theosophy Press of = Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, but avoid it for = weight control purposes. Could I give it another try? Does anyone have a web address for the = Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? And a street = address? This is Los Angeles California. You know, like The Rose Parade, = Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that. I am not sure , but I think there is a communication problem here. It = is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third brick building on the = left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since 1992, and that is the = last year that I have statistics that I can access readily. In 1992, Los = Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. The Phone book = of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book doesn't = cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due north, = nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due north. I have looked in the phone books that I have, for buildings, = universities, libraries, and organizations, for locations, but it is not = listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up on Beachwood = Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the Wheaton, = world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their catalog. Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had 132,000 people in 1992. If there is anyone who has a web address for the Theosophy = (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having it. I have = seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations and photo copies of = the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able to get the numbers, = and address. =20 These two addresses were in the original reply message to me, and the = first one is not operating, and the second one is an organization that = lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers group. ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/63631087. Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html. Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is a = Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly = International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to see = their material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org ---And make up your own mind about the value of the material. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Theos-World books I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to read more on = the subject. I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House catalog, Quest = Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] and = ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by = Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them. Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked for some of = the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find anything = by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American Section. I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, who had a = vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of view. I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) are = published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, I don't find = any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is those printed = prior to 1910. Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web site for them? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF77D7.C248FB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bharata
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2000 6:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through = Theosophy=20 Company, Los Angeles.
 
 
Thanks for the references. The first one = wasn't=20 operating, and said that the page couldn't be displayed.  The = second one=20 came up fine, but said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" page.  = That is=20 not quite what I had in mind when I asked about where I could find the = Theosophy Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, = but=20 avoid it for weight control purposes.
 
Could I give it another try? Does anyone have = a web=20 address for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? = And a=20 street address?
 
This is Los Angeles California. You know, like = The Rose=20 Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that.
 
I am not sure , but I think there is a = communication=20 problem here. It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third = brick=20 building on the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since 1992, = and=20 that is the last year that I have statistics that I can access = readily. In=20 1992, Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. = The Phone=20 book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book = doesn't cover=20 the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due north, nor = the=20 Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due north.
 
I have looked in the phone books that I have, = for=20 buildings, universities, libraries, and organizations, for locations, = but it=20 is not listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up on=20 Beachwood Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the = Wheaton,=20 world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their = catalog.
 
Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had = 132,000=20 people in 1992.
 
If there is anyone who has a web address for = the=20 Theosophy (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having = it. =20 I have seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations and photo = copies of=20 the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able to get the = numbers, and=20 address.
 
 
These two addresses were in the original reply = message=20 to me, and  the first one is not operating, and the second one is = an=20 organization that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers=20 group.
 
ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/6363108= 7.
Interested=20 in 'Consciousness'? Go To:
http://www.egrou= ps.com/group/I2c2much/info.html.
 
Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is a=20 Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly=20 International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to see = their=20 material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org
---And make up your own mind about the value of the = material.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis=20 Kier
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2000 10:29=20 AM
Subject: Theos-World = books

I find all this very interesting, and makes = me want to=20 read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  [Theosophical = Publishing=20 House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org]  = and=20 ordered 3 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, = edited by=20 Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them.
 
Then, from the discussions and writings = here, I looked=20 for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't = find=20 anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away = American=20 Section.
 
I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD = DIARY LEAVES,=20 who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of = view.
 
I conclude that those books (If they are = still in=20 print) are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing=20 house.
 
Looking through all the Theosophical books = that I=20 have, I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, = unless it is=20 those printed prior to 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the Pasadena = address, and web=20 site for them?
 
Dennis
 
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF77D7.C248FB20-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 16 18:52:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA16106 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:40:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: "Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com" Subject: Theos-World Eros Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:06:02 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Did anyone see anything about there being a love heart found on the comet EROS on St Valentines day, 2 days after a similar natural formation was identified on Mars? n nos s -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 16 19:32:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA20382 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:14:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <008d01bf78e2$fa3b5e40$1db47ed8@computer> From: "bharata" To: References: <000301bf75bf$ca9c2fa0$979ab2d1@denniski> <001e01bf75cc$6deba080$54b47ed8@computer> <000201bf78dc$42557be0$8414f4d8@denniski> Subject: Re: Theos-World books Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:04:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008A_01BF789F.EA29BBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01BF789F.EA29BBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Theosophy Company 245 West 33rd. Street Los Angeles, CA 93005 Theosophical articles, too, at: http://www.theosophy.org. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bharata=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through Theosophy Company, Los = Angeles. Thanks for the references. The first one wasn't operating, and said = that the page couldn't be displayed. The second one came up fine, but = said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" page. That is not quite what I = had in mind when I asked about where I could find the Theosophy Press of = Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, but avoid it for = weight control purposes. Could I give it another try? Does anyone have a web address for the = Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? And a street = address? This is Los Angeles California. You know, like The Rose Parade, = Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that. I am not sure , but I think there is a communication problem here. = It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third brick building on = the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since 1992, and that is = the last year that I have statistics that I can access readily. In 1992, = Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. The Phone = book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book doesn't = cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due north, = nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due north. I have looked in the phone books that I have, for buildings, = universities, libraries, and organizations, for locations, but it is not = listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up on Beachwood = Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the Wheaton, = world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their catalog. Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had 132,000 people in 1992. If there is anyone who has a web address for the Theosophy = (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having it. I have = seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations and photo copies of = the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able to get the numbers, = and address. These two addresses were in the original reply message to me, and = the first one is not operating, and the second one is an organization = that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers group. ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/63631087. Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html. Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is a = Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly = International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to see = their material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org ---And make up your own mind about the value of the material. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Theos-World books I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to read more = on the subject. I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House catalog, = Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] = and ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, = edited by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them. Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked for some of = the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find anything = by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American Section. I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, who had a = vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of view. I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) are = published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, I don't = find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is those = printed prior to 1910. Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web site for = them? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01BF789F.EA29BBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
 
The Theosophy Company
245 West 33rd. Street
Los Angeles, CA 93005
 
Theosophical articles, too, = at:
 
http://www.theosophy.org.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis=20 Kier
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, = 2000 5:11=20 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bharata
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2000 6:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

works by W.Q.Judge obtainable = through Theosophy=20 Company, Los Angeles.
 
 
Thanks for the references. The first one = wasn't=20 operating, and said that the page couldn't be displayed.  The = second=20 one came up fine, but said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" = page.  That=20 is not quite what I had in mind when I asked about where I could = find the=20 Theosophy Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a = bit, but=20 avoid it for weight control purposes.
 
Could I give it another try? Does anyone = have a web=20 address for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? = And a=20 street address?
 
This is Los Angeles California. You know, = like The=20 Rose Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that.
 
I am not sure , but I think there is a = communication=20 problem here. It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third = brick=20 building on the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since = 1992, and=20 that is the last year that I have statistics that I can access = readily. In=20 1992, Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. = The=20 Phone book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone = book=20 doesn't cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles = due=20 north, nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due=20 north.
 
I have looked in the phone books that I = have, for=20 buildings, universities, libraries, and organizations, for = locations, but it=20 is not listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up = on=20 Beachwood Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the = Wheaton,=20 world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their = catalog.
 
Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had = 132,000=20 people in 1992.
 
If there is anyone who has a web address for = the=20 Theosophy (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having = it.  I have seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations = and=20 photo copies of the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able = to get=20 the numbers, and address.
 
 
These two addresses were in the original = reply message=20 to me, and  the first one is not operating, and the second one = is an=20 organization that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers=20 group.
 
ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/6363108= 7.
Interested=20 in 'Consciousness'? Go To:
http://www.egrou= ps.com/group/I2c2much/info.html.
 
Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is = a=20 Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly=20 International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to = see their=20 material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org
---And make up your own mind about the value of the = material.
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dennis=20 Kier
Sent: Saturday, February = 12, 2000=20 10:29 AM
Subject: Theos-World = books

I find all this very interesting, and = makes me want=20 to read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  [Theosophical = Publishing=20 House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, = www.theosophical.org]  and = ordered 3 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, = edited=20 by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of = them.
 
Then, from the discussions and writings = here, I=20 looked for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, = but=20 didn't find anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the=20 break-away American Section.
 
I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD = DIARY=20 LEAVES, who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from = his point=20 of view.
 
I conclude that those books (If they are = still in=20 print) are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing=20 house.
 
Looking through all the Theosophical books = that I=20 have, I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, = unless it=20 is those printed prior to 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the Pasadena = address, and=20 web site for them?
 
Dennis
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_008A_01BF789F.EA29BBC0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 17 07:09:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA10345 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:49:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World books Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 04:44:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001801bf7944$c1fbb9a0$b00e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF7901.B3D879A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000201bf78dc$42557be0$8414f4d8@denniski> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF7901.B3D879A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feb 15 2000 Dear Dennis: Thanks for the references you give me. This may help you: They can supply a List of their publications and also send books if ordered. They make it a point to supply only photographic or verbatim reproductions of the original literature of Theosophy as presented by H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. Theosophy Company publishes the books studied by the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS. This "association" of independent students of Theosophy was started in 1909 as a protest against the mutilation of the original teachings of Theosophy which the various Theosophical Publishing Houses had indulged in. You can contact them at: THEOSOPHY COMPANY, Los Angeles, Phone: 213-748-7244 Fax: 213-748-0634 Email: http://www.ult.org Address: 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007, USA Additionally you could contact BLAVATSKY NET in New York which is operate by a student of the ULT http://www.blavatsky.net. They will also give you access to most of the texts of original Theosophical teachings. And they offer many other services. I am sorry if you got a garbled Email from me earlier. I cannot account for it. In Pasadena there is the Theosophical Society which has its formation in 1896 as THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA, distinct from the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with head office in Adyar, Madras, India. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:12 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World books ----- Original Message ----- From: bharata To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. Thanks for the references. The first one wasn't operating, and said that the page couldn't be displayed. The second one came up fine, but said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" page. That is not quite what I had in mind when I asked about where I could find the Theosophy Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, but avoid it for weight control purposes. Could I give it another try? Does anyone have a web address for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? And a street address? This is Los Angeles California. You know, like The Rose Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that. I am not sure , but I think there is a communication problem here. It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third brick building on the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since 1992, and that is the last year that I have statistics that I can access readily. In 1992, Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. The Phone book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book doesn't cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due north, nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due north. I have looked in the phone books that I have, for buildings, universities, libraries, and organizations, for locations, but it is not listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up on Beachwood Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the Wheaton, world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their catalog. Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had 132,000 people in 1992. If there is anyone who has a web address for the Theosophy (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having it. I have seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations and photo copies of the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able to get the numbers, and address. These two addresses were in the original reply message to me, and the first one is not operating, and the second one is an organization that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers group. ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/63631087. Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html. Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is a Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to see their material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org ---And make up your own mind about the value of the material. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Kier To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Theos-World books I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to read more on the subject. I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] and ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of them. Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't find anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away American Section. I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of view. I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is those printed prior to 1910. Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web site for them? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF7901.B3D879A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Feb 15=20 2000
 
Dear=20 Dennis: 
 
Thanks=20 for the references you give me.
 
This may=20 help you:
 
They can=20 supply a List of their publications and also send books if=20 ordered.
 
They make=20 it a point to supply only photographic or verbatim reproductions of the = original=20 literature of Theosophy as presented by H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q.=20 Judge.
 
Theosophy=20 Company  publishes the books studied by the UNITED LODGE OF=20 THEOSOPHISTS.  This "association" of independent students of = Theosophy was=20 started in 1909 as a protest against the mutilation of the original = teachings of=20 Theosophy which the various Theosophical Publishing Houses had indulged=20 in.
 
You can=20 contact them at:
 
THEOSOPHY=20 COMPANY,  Los Angeles,
 
Phone: =20 213-748-7244
Fax:     &nbs= p; =20 213-748-0634
Email:    http://www.ult.org=
 
Address:    245 W. = 33rd=20 St.,
       &nbs= p;           =20 Los Angeles,  Ca., 90007,  USA
 
Additionally you could contact = BLAVATSKY NET in=20 New York which is operate by a student of the ULT  http://www.blavatsky.net.<= /SPAN>
 
They will=20 also give you access to most of the texts of original Theosophical=20 teachings.  And they offer many other=20 services.
 
I am=20 sorry if you got a garbled Email from me earlier.  I cannot account = for=20 it.
 
In=20 Pasadena there is the Theosophical Society which has its formation in = 1896 as=20 THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA, distinct from the THEOSOPHICAL = SOCIETY with=20 head office in Adyar, Madras, India. 
 
Best=20 wishes,
 
Dallas

dalval@nwc.net

 
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis=20 Kier
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:12 PM
To:=20 theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World=20 books

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bharata
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, = 2000 6:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

works by W.Q.Judge obtainable = through Theosophy=20 Company, Los Angeles.
 
 
Thanks for the references. The first one = wasn't=20 operating, and said that the page couldn't be displayed.  The = second=20 one came up fine, but said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" = page.  That=20 is not quite what I had in mind when I asked about where I could = find the=20 Theosophy Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a = bit, but=20 avoid it for weight control purposes.
 
Could I give it another try? Does anyone = have a web=20 address for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? = And a=20 street address?
 
This is Los Angeles California. You know, = like The=20 Rose Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that.
 
I am not sure , but I think there is a = communication=20 problem here. It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third = brick=20 building on the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since = 1992, and=20 that is the last year that I have statistics that I can access = readily. In=20 1992, Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. = The=20 Phone book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone = book=20 doesn't cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles = due=20 north, nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due=20 north.
 
I have looked in the phone books that I = have, for=20 buildings, universities, libraries, and organizations, for = locations, but it=20 is not listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up = on=20 Beachwood Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the = Wheaton,=20 world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their = catalog.
 
Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had = 132,000=20 people in 1992.
 
If there is anyone who has a web address for = the=20 Theosophy (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having = it.  I have seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations = and=20 photo copies of the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able = to get=20 the numbers, and address.
 
 
These two addresses were in the original = reply message=20 to me, and  the first one is not operating, and the second one = is an=20 organization that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers=20 group.
 
ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/6363108= 7.
Interested=20 in 'Consciousness'? Go To:
http://www.egrou= ps.com/group/I2c2much/info.html.
 
Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It is = a=20 Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly=20 International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to = see their=20 material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org
---And make up your own mind about the value of the = material.
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dennis=20 Kier
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com =
Sent: Saturday, February = 12, 2000=20 10:29 AM
Subject: Theos-World = books

I find all this very interesting, and = makes me want=20 to read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  [Theosophical = Publishing=20 House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, = www.theosophical.org]  and = ordered 3 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. P. BLAVATSKY, = edited=20 by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some of = them.
 
Then, from the discussions and writings = here, I=20 looked for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, = but=20 didn't find anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the=20 break-away American Section.
 
I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD = DIARY=20 LEAVES, who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from = his point=20 of view.
 
I conclude that those books (If they are = still in=20 print) are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing=20 house.
 
Looking through all the Theosophical books = that I=20 have, I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, = unless it=20 is those printed prior to 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the Pasadena = address, and=20 web site for them?
 
Dennis
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BF7901.B3D879A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 17 08:24:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA14842 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:57:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: "Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com" Subject: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:22:54 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com http://www.freenet.msp.mn.us/org/mythos/mythos.www/GRAILINX.HTML HPB and Secret Doctrine referenced - by connecting to http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm >From a page of links re: Sir Laurence Gardeners 'Bloodline of the Holy Grail' The Author has some interesting points but it all seems a bit twisted. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 17 12:35:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA13491 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:13:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <001601bf7972$654ef810$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World books Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:11:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF792F.56D64510" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF792F.56D64510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thankyou. -----Original Message----- From: bharata To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 The Theosophy Company 245 West 33rd. Street Los Angeles, CA 93005 =20 Theosophical articles, too, at: =20 http://www.theosophy.org. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books =20 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bharata=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books =20 =20 works by W.Q.Judge obtainable through Theosophy Company, Los = Angeles. =20 =20 Thanks for the references. The first one wasn't operating, = and said that the page couldn't be displayed. The second one came up = fine, but said that it was a "Chocolate Lovers" page. That is not quite = what I had in mind when I asked about where I could find the Theosophy = Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, but avoid = it for weight control purposes. =20 Could I give it another try? Does anyone have a web address = for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even Los Angeles? And a street = address? =20 This is Los Angeles California. You know, like The Rose = Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all that. =20 I am not sure , but I think there is a communication problem = here. It is not like " Go to Los Angeles, it is the third brick building = on the left". Los Angeles and Pasadena have grown since 1992, and that = is the last year that I have statistics that I can access readily. In = 1992, Los Angeles was 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. The = Phone book of the region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book = doesn't cover the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due = north, nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due north. =20 I have looked in the phone books that I have, for buildings, = universities, libraries, and organizations, for locations, but it is not = listed. I have been by the old Theosophical headquarters up on Beachwood = Drive, in Hollywood, but they are associated with the Wheaton, = world-wide Theosophical organization, and I have their catalog. =20 Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., and had 132,000 people = in 1992. =20 If there is anyone who has a web address for the Theosophy = (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would appreciate having it. I have = seen it referred to in books, and in illustrations and photo copies of = the writings of the Adepts, but I haven't been able to get the numbers, = and address. =20 =20 These two addresses were in the original reply message to = me, and the first one is not operating, and the second one is an = organization that lists groups, in this case the Chocolate Lovers group. =20 ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/63631087. Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html. =20 Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual organization. It = is a Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly Meditation Monthly = International, loosely associated with the Adepts. If you wish to see = their material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org ---And make up your own mind about the value of the = material. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Kier=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Theos-World books =20 =20 I find all this very interesting, and makes me want to = read more on the subject. =20 I went to the current [Theosophical Publishing House = catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, Wheaton, Il 60189-0270, = www.theosophical.org] and ordered 3 more of the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF = H. P. BLAVATSKY, edited by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already have some = of them. =20 Then, from the discussions and writings here, I looked = for some of the works mentioned here, particularly Judge, but didn't = find anything by him, Tingley (sp?), or the others of the break-away = American Section. =20 I read about the breakup in Olcott's OLD DIARY LEAVES, = who had a vested interest in presenting the matter from his point of = view. =20 I conclude that those books (If they are still in print) = are published by the Point Loma/ Pasadena publishing house. =20 Looking through all the Theosophical books that I have, = I don't find any of them printed by the Padadena branch, unless it is = those printed prior to 1910. =20 Can anyone here give me the Pasadena address, and web = site for them? =20 Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF792F.56D64510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thankyou.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bharata <bharata@ojai.net>
To: = theos-talk@theosophy.com = <theos-talk@theosophy.com>=
Date:=20 Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: = Theos-World=20 books

 
 
 
The Theosophy Company
245 West 33rd. Street
Los Angeles, CA 93005
 
Theosophical articles, too, = at:
 
http://www.theosophy.org.
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dennis Kier
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com =
Sent: Tuesday, February = 15, 2000=20 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World=20 books

 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 bharata=20
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Saturday, = February 12,=20 2000 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: = Theos-World=20 books

works by W.Q.Judge = obtainable through=20 Theosophy Company, Los Angeles.
 
 
Thanks for the references. The first = one=20 wasn't operating, and said that the page couldn't be=20 displayed.  The second one came up fine, but said that = it was a=20 "Chocolate Lovers" page.  That is not quite = what I=20 had in mind when I asked about where I could find the = Theosophy=20 Press of Pasadena. I, myself, do like Chocolate quite a bit, = but=20 avoid it for weight control purposes.
 
Could I give it another try? Does = anyone have=20 a web address for the Theosophy Company of Padadena, or even = Los=20 Angeles? And a street address?
 
This is Los Angeles California. You = know, like=20 The Rose Parade, Hollywood, Disneyland, and all = that.
 
I am not sure , but I think there is = a=20 communication problem here. It is not like " Go to Los = Angeles,=20 it is the third brick building on the left". Los = Angeles and=20 Pasadena have grown since 1992, and that is the last year = that I=20 have statistics that I can access readily. In 1992, Los = Angeles was=20 470 square miles, and had 3.5 million people. The Phone book = of the=20 region makes a pile about 7 feet high. My phone book doesn't = cover=20 the downtown Los Angeles area, which is about 25 miles due = north,=20 nor the Pasadena area, which is about 36 miles due=20 north.
 
I have looked in the phone books = that I have,=20 for buildings, universities, libraries, and organizations, = for=20 locations, but it is not listed. I have been by the old = Theosophical=20 headquarters up on Beachwood Drive, in Hollywood, but they = are=20 associated with the Wheaton, world-wide Theosophical = organization,=20 and I have their catalog.
 
Pasedena has an area of 23 Sq. Mi., = and had=20 132,000 people in 1992.
 
If there is anyone who has a web = address for=20 the Theosophy (University?) Press of Pasadena, I would = appreciate=20 having it.  I have seen it referred to in books, and in = illustrations and photo copies of the writings of the = Adepts, but I=20 haven't been able to get the numbers, and = address.
 
 
These two addresses were in the = original reply=20 message to me, and  the first one is not operating, and = the=20 second one is an organization that lists groups, in this = case the=20 Chocolate Lovers group.
 
ICQ# 63631087; http://www.home.icq.com/6363108= 7.
Interested=20 in 'Consciousness'? Go To:
http://www.egrou= ps.com/group/I2c2much/info.html.
 
Here is a reference of my own, a spiritual = organization. It is=20 a Meditation organization, that puts out a monthly = Meditation=20 Monthly International, loosely associated with the Adepts. = If you=20 wish to see their material, the web page is www.wmea-world.org
---And make up your own mind about the value of the=20 material.
 
----- Original Message = -----=20
From:=20 Dennis Kier
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20
Sent: Saturday, = February=20 12, 2000 10:29 AM
Subject: = Theos-World=20 books

I find all this very = interesting, and=20 makes me want to read more on the subject.
 
I went to the current  = [Theosophical=20 Publishing House catalog, Quest Books, P.O. Box 270, = Wheaton, Il=20 60189-0270, www.theosophical.org] =20 and ordered 3 more of  the COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H. = P.=20 BLAVATSKY, edited by Boris de Zirkoff volumes. I already = have=20 some of them.
 
Then, from the discussions and = writings=20 here, I looked for some of the works mentioned here,=20 particularly Judge, but didn't find anything by him, = Tingley=20 (sp?), or the others of the break-away American=20 Section.
 
I read about the breakup in = Olcott's OLD=20 DIARY LEAVES, who had a vested interest in presenting = the matter=20 from his point of view.
 
I conclude that those books (If = they are=20 still in print) are published by the Point Loma/ = Pasadena=20 publishing house.
 
Looking through all the = Theosophical books=20 that I have, I don't find any of them printed by the = Padadena=20 branch, unless it is those printed prior to = 1910.
 
Can anyone here give me the = Pasadena=20 address, and web site for them?
 
Dennis
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF792F.56D64510-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 17 21:57:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id VAA32652 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:38:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000217193031.00a3a4b0@theosophy.com> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:31:42 -0800 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Theos-World regarding Nirvana Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Here's something I wrote on another list. Perhaps there might also be some interest in discussing the topic on theos-talk? -- Eldon ---- Chuck: [commenting on Nirvana] >And to take another point of view, why would one not want to come back???? > >Suppose for a moment someone gets Nirvanaized in 1870, look at all the fun >that person missed, never to see television, never to fly, never to play with >a computer, all the friends he never got a chance to make, all the parties he >never got to attend. > >With all the interesting things and pleasure the physical life has to offer, >I can't imagine not wanting to get back to it as soon as possible. You're commenting on the incomplete nature of the exoteric idea of Nirvana. It's true that we come back to life, time after time, because of the sheer creative joy of existing, and of doing things in this world. This world is our home, and we have strong bonds with it. We have long-standing relationships with many others who live here. We've developed, over many lifetimes, considerable skills to exist, to be aware, to do things, and be self-expressive on our physical-plane earth. It's this desire to exist, "tanha," that we feel towards the end of our after-death state, that draws us back into rebirth each time. Over time, though, we learn to do things that are extremely frustrated by the limitations of physical-plane existence, and there grows a strong attraction to find rebirth into higher worlds. In the Blavatsky/Mahatma Letters model, we'd say that life on earth is an existence in a "sphere of causes," and our after-death states, in working out the unspent life energies, are had in the following "sphere of effects." When those energies have exhausted themselves, we're attracted into rebirth on "this or the next sphere of causes." That is, we either return to earthlife, or find rebirth on the next place of objective existence of our earth's, on the next higher plane, otherwise called "Globe E." The after-death states, as a time of peace and temporary liberation from the limitations of physical earthlife, is a small-scale representation of what we find in bigger scale: our vast time of evolution in the human kingdom, followed by a complete release of bondage from the limits of human egoship, or Nirvana. Nirvana is both a place, a locality, a realm, in its own sense, as well as being a mode of consciousness, a way to perceive and experience life. As a mode of consciousness, it is the dharmakaya, the state wherein a transcendental universality of consciousness is achieved. We may exist, have a distinct, colorful personality, and be acting in the world, looking the same to someone's camera, as we did a moment before entering this state. Yet upon entering it, the world has stopped, all awareness of our being particular person doing a particular thing in a particular place and time is totally obliterated. There's a sense of universal grandness. Our experience of life, for the moment, has no observer, only an awareness of the "flavor" of life in this world, even though there's yet thought, feeling, and action, as "we" do things, minus any awareness of there being an "us" in the equation. A third aspect of Nirvana relates to the composite nature of our being. Each part of our constitution has a life of its own, and is built, contributed by, or overshadowed by some class of beings, called by various names like the Lunar and Solar Pitris. When we reach a certain stage of perfection, attaining Buddhahood, Sixth Rounder status, the higher part of our nature enters Nirvana. That part is our Manasaputra, a higher being, a Dhyani Chohan, who has been acting in the role of "higher self" to us. It leaves us behind as nearly-perfect humans, Bodhisattvas, with sufficient development of our own innate manasaputric consciousness to be able to function without that overshadowing influence. To us, from our standpoint, it seems as though our Higher Selves have departed to Nirvana, but from their standpoint, they've entered into a higher state of experience where they can be more truly themselves, not having us to weigh them down anymore. There are many other angles on Nirvana, meanings of the term in Theosophy, ideas that could be explored ... just not many minutes left tonight to write more ... -- Eldon -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 17 23:14:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA13629 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:11:50 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38ACD240.7D8A9EBD@ojai.net> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:01:52 -0800 From: damodar mavalankar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World regarding Nirvana References: <4.2.2.20000217193031.00a3a4b0@theosophy.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2EEC84B8057B31887477D301" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2EEC84B8057B31887477D301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: Nirvana. It is perhaps worth mentioning the distinction made (e.g., in "The Voice of the Silence") between the Path of Liberation (Nirvana) and the Path of Renunciation (Boddhisattva). The former is referred to as "exalted selfishness." Further, much is said in the Literature -- mostly not positive --about the 'fate' and the 'role' of "returning Nirvanees," for 'Nirvana' is not 'forever.' The causes, for causes there are, that 'occasion' it do exhaust themselves, and the 'being' must (no choice) again descend onto "the Wheel of birth, death, suffering." Most incarnate beings, of whatever persuasion, are on the Path of Liberation, consciously or otherwise -- one has only to look ... it's all about 'what's in this for me?' Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Here's something I wrote on another list. Perhaps there > might also be some interest in discussing the topic on > theos-talk? > > -- Eldon > > ---- > > Chuck: > > [commenting on Nirvana] > > >And to take another point of view, why would one not want to come back???? > > > >Suppose for a moment someone gets Nirvanaized in 1870, look at all the fun > >that person missed, never to see television, never to fly, never to play with > >a computer, all the friends he never got a chance to make, all the parties he > >never got to attend. > > > >With all the interesting things and pleasure the physical life has to offer, > >I can't imagine not wanting to get back to it as soon as possible. > > You're commenting on the incomplete nature of the exoteric > idea of Nirvana. > > It's true that we come back to life, time after time, because > of the sheer creative joy of existing, and of doing things in > this world. This world is our home, and we have strong bonds > with it. We have long-standing relationships with many others > who live here. We've developed, over many lifetimes, considerable > skills to exist, to be aware, to do things, and be self-expressive > on our physical-plane earth. It's this desire to exist, "tanha," > that we feel towards the end of our after-death state, that > draws us back into rebirth each time. > > Over time, though, we learn to do things that are extremely > frustrated by the limitations of physical-plane existence, and > there grows a strong attraction to find rebirth into higher > worlds. In the Blavatsky/Mahatma Letters model, we'd say that > life on earth is an existence in a "sphere of causes," and our > after-death states, in working out the unspent life energies, > are had in the following "sphere of effects." When those > energies have exhausted themselves, we're attracted into rebirth > on "this or the next sphere of causes." That is, we either > return to earthlife, or find rebirth on the next place of > objective existence of our earth's, on the next higher plane, > otherwise called "Globe E." > > The after-death states, as a time of peace and temporary > liberation from the limitations of physical earthlife, is > a small-scale representation of what we find in bigger > scale: our vast time of evolution in the human kingdom, > followed by a complete release of bondage from the limits > of human egoship, or Nirvana. > > Nirvana is both a place, a locality, a realm, in its own > sense, as well as being a mode of consciousness, a way to > perceive and experience life. As a mode of consciousness, > it is the dharmakaya, the state wherein a transcendental > universality of consciousness is achieved. We may exist, > have a distinct, colorful personality, and be acting in > the world, looking the same to someone's camera, as we > did a moment before entering this state. Yet upon entering > it, the world has stopped, all awareness of our being > particular person doing a particular thing in a particular > place and time is totally obliterated. There's a sense > of universal grandness. Our experience of life, for the > moment, has no observer, only an awareness of the "flavor" > of life in this world, even though there's yet thought, > feeling, and action, as "we" do things, minus any awareness > of there being an "us" in the equation. > > A third aspect of Nirvana relates to the composite nature > of our being. Each part of our constitution has a life > of its own, and is built, contributed by, or overshadowed > by some class of beings, called by various names like the > Lunar and Solar Pitris. When we reach a certain stage > of perfection, attaining Buddhahood, Sixth Rounder status, > the higher part of our nature enters Nirvana. That part > is our Manasaputra, a higher being, a Dhyani Chohan, who > has been acting in the role of "higher self" to us. It > leaves us behind as nearly-perfect humans, Bodhisattvas, > with sufficient development of our own innate manasaputric > consciousness to be able to function without that > overshadowing influence. To us, from our standpoint, > it seems as though our Higher Selves have departed to > Nirvana, but from their standpoint, they've entered into > a higher state of experience where they can be more > truly themselves, not having us to weigh them down > anymore. > > There are many other angles on Nirvana, meanings of > the term in Theosophy, ideas that could be explored ... > just not many minutes left tonight to write more ... > > -- Eldon > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. --------------2EEC84B8057B31887477D301 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="bharata.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for damodar mavalankar Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bharata.vcf" begin:vcard n:culmback;barrett x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html org:rtd.;EasternReligions/Philosophy adr:;;;Oak View;CA;93022-9334;USA version:2.1 email;internet:bharata@ojai.net title:prof. note:Interested in consciousness, meditation, internet, searchengines, browsers, ICQ, IRC, technology, Eastern Religions, mysticism, THEOSOPHY. fn:barrett culmback end:vcard --------------2EEC84B8057B31887477D301-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 18 05:48:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id FAA13998 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:28:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <3a.1828b58.25de8567@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:22:15 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 2/17/0 9:19:11 AM, nos@granite.net.au writes: >http://www.freenet.msp.mn.us/org/mythos/mythos.www/GRAILINX.HTML > HPB and Secret Doctrine referenced - by connecting to >http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm > >From a page of links re: Sir Laurence Gardeners 'Bloodline of the Holy >Grail' > >The Author has some interesting points but it all seems a bit twisted. Right. Although the aim of the site to discredit Hitler, the Nazis and the "deniers of the holocaust" is well intentioned, the reference to Blavatsky as the foundation of Hitler's occultism is more than twisted. It is quite ignorant of the meaning of the word "occult" as well as the "swastika" -- since, occultism, as related to theosophy, has a dual potential. That is, for both Black as well as white Magic. And, this depends solely of the "motives" for the actions of the practitioners -- which can be either in the direction of "Universal brotherhood" and compassion for all sentient beings, or toward the kind of evil, death cult practices engaged in by Hitler and his Nazi followers. As for the swastika ... It two has a dual meaning -- depending on the direction of its turning (clockwise or counterclockwise) and whether or not its corners are sharply angled or curved. Therefore, the so called "proof" given at the site that theosophy is related to the Nazi's, as well as the beliefs and actions of Hitler, simply because the fifth root race is called "Aryan" and the swastika appears on the symbol HPB designed for the Theosophical Society -- is a false assumption... Since, the swastikas used by Hitler and the one used by HPB (as an ancient symbol of the final stage of universal evolution or emanation out of the absolute) turn in opposite directions... One, indicating conquest by cruelty and force of arms, and the other, toward benevolent peace and harmony. Thus, this reference to the Secret Doctrine to prove that Hitler was an "Occultist" and, by implication, that HPB, who taught occultism, was a proto nazi, and that all occultists are evil, is completely unfair and unjust. LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 18 18:33:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA01763 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:30:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf7a6f$c3ba7ac0$4212f4d8@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: Cc: References: <001601bf7972$654ef810$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> Subject: Re: Theos-World books Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:41:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF796E.4131A800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF796E.4131A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eugene Carpenter=20 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World books Thankyou. -----Original Message----- From: bharata To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books =20 The Theosophy Company 245 West 33rd. Street Los Angeles, CA 93005 =20 Theosophical articles, too, at: =20 http://www.theosophy.org. Thank you. I am adding that to my address list. The second message = did it, and I am getting a good list of places to get information. Thank you. Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF796E.4131A800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Eugene=20 Carpenter
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, = 2000 10:11=20 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

Thankyou.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bharata <bharata@ojai.net>
To: = theos-talk@theosophy.com = <theos-talk@theosophy.com>=
Date:=20 Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: = Theos-World=20 books
 
The Theosophy Company
245 West 33rd. Street
Los Angeles, CA 93005
 
Theosophical articles, too, = at:
 
http://www.theosophy.org.
 
 
Thank you. I am adding that to my address = list. The=20 second message did it, and I am getting a good list of places to get = information.
 
Thank you.
 
Dennis
 
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF796E.4131A800-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 19 05:24:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id FAA05714 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:22:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38AE7B65.76BBA82E@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:15:49 +1300 From: Charles Sitwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website References: <3a.1828b58.25de8567@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/17/0 9:19:11 AM, nos@granite.net.au writes: > > >http://www.freenet.msp.mn.us/org/mythos/mythos.www/GRAILINX.HTML > > > HPB and Secret Doctrine referenced - by connecting to > >http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm > > > >From a page of links re: Sir Laurence Gardeners 'Bloodline of the Holy > >Grail' > > > >The Author has some interesting points but it all seems a bit twisted. > > Right. Although the aim of the site to discredit Hitler, the Nazis and the > "deniers of the holocaust" is well intentioned, the reference to Blavatsky as > the foundation of Hitler's occultism is more than twisted. It is quite > ignorant of the meaning of the word "occult" as well as the "swastika" -- > since, occultism, as related to theosophy, has a dual potential. That is, > for both Black as well as white Magic. And, this depends solely of the > "motives" for the actions of the practitioners -- which can be either in the > direction of "Universal brotherhood" and compassion for all sentient beings, > or toward the kind of evil, death cult practices engaged in by Hitler and his > Nazi followers. As for the swastika ... It two has a dual meaning -- > depending on the direction of its turning (clockwise or counterclockwise) and > whether or not its corners are sharply angled or curved. Therefore, the so > called "proof" given at the site that theosophy is related to the Nazi's, as > well as the beliefs and actions of Hitler, simply because the fifth root race > is called "Aryan" and the swastika appears on the symbol HPB designed for the > Theosophical Society -- is a false assumption... Since, the swastikas used by > Hitler and the one used by HPB (as an ancient symbol of the final stage of > universal evolution or emanation out of the absolute) turn in opposite > directions... One, indicating conquest by cruelty and force of arms, and the > other, toward benevolent peace and harmony. Thus, this reference to the > Secret Doctrine to prove that Hitler was an "Occultist" and, by implication, > that HPB, who taught occultism, was a proto nazi, and that all occultists are > evil, is completely unfair and unjust. > > LHM > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. I would like to venture to add a comment to this topic. (This is my first in this group, so hello everybody :-) ). The Swastika has been used for many hundreds of years as a religious symbol, by cultures as far apart as the Navaho Indians and asian Zen Buddhists. From its usage and from HPB's comments it represents (Possibly amongst other things) the forces of Divine manifestation in motion. The cross revolving with arms bent at the end to representation a revolving figure. The direction depends of course on Involution and Evolution (but also on the view from above or below. Just one more thought: Hitler's use was a very specific one: a black swastika on a red background (the dark forces moving in the field of physical activity?). In any case it was over half a century *after* HPB wrote about it, so any association (if any) was obviously of the Nazi's making. Finally any symbol can be abused and/or misapplied either intentionally or unintentionally. Charles Sitwell. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 19 07:10:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA09991 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:09:07 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World books Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:03:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf7ad9$c2a442a0$650e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01BF7A96.B48102A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301bf7a6f$c3ba7ac0$4212f4d8@denniski> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BF7A96.B48102A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK While I am thinking of it, here are a few more Internet addresses if you are interested: http://www.whidbey.com http://www.theosophycompany.org There are also Web Pages for several of the ULTs which repeat substantially this information for those who seek it. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ======================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 5:42 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: bharata@ojai.net Subject: Re: Theos-World books ----- Original Message ----- From: Eugene Carpenter To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World books Thankyou. -----Original Message----- From: bharata To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World books The Theosophy Company 245 West 33rd. Street Los Angeles, CA 93005 Theosophical articles, too, at: http://www.theosophy.org. Thank you. I am adding that to my address list. The second message did it, and I am getting a good list of places to get information. Thank you. Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BF7A96.B48102A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK
 
While I am thinking of it, = here are=20 a few more Internet addresses if you are = interested:
 
http://www.whidbey.com   =
http://www.theosophycompany.org
 
There are also Web Pages = for several=20 of the ULTs which repeat substantially this information for those who = seek=20 it.
 
Best = wishes,

  Dallas

dalval@nwc.net

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis=20 Kier
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 5:42 PM
To: = theos-talk@theosophy.com
= Cc:=20 bharata@ojai.net
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Eugene=20 Carpenter
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Sent: Thursday, February 17, = 2000 10:11=20 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World = books

Thankyou.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 bharata <bharata@ojai.net>
To: = theos-talk@theosophy.com = <theos-talk@theosophy.com>=
Date:=20 Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:53 PM
Subject: Re:=20 Theos-World books
 
The Theosophy = Company
245 West 33rd. = Street
Los Angeles, CA = 93005
 
Theosophical articles, too, = at:
 
http://www.theosophy.org.
 
 
Thank you. I am adding that to my address = list. The=20 second message did it, and I am getting a good list of places to = get=20 information.
 
Thank you.
 
Dennis
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BF7A96.B48102A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 19 13:08:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA02195 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:40:53 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Tony" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:35:02 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38AE7B65.76BBA82E@xtra.co.nz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Charles "Since Fohat crossed the Circle like two lines of flame (horizontally and vertically), the hosts of the Blessed Ones have never failed to send their representatives upon the planets they are made to watch over from the beginning." This is why the Swastica is always placed -- as the ansated Cross was in Egypt -- on the breasts of the defunct mystics. It is found on the heart of the images and statues of Buddha, in Tibet and Mongolia. It is the seal placed also on the hearts of the living Initiates, burnt into the flesh, for ever, with some. This, because they have to keep those truths inviolate and intact, in eternal silence and secrecy to the day these are perceived and read by their chosen successors -- new Initiates -- "worthy of being entrusted with the ten thousand perfections." So degraded, however, has it now become, that it is often placed on the headgear of the "gods," the hideous idols of the sacrilegious Bhons, the Dugpas (Sorcerers) of the Tibetan borderlands; until found out by a Galukpa and torn off together with the head of the "god;" though it would be better were it that of the worshipper which was severed from the sinful body. Still, it can never lose its mysterious properties." (The Secret Doctrine, vol. II, page, 586). The top brass in Hitler's army did even LITERALLY have the swastika on their headgear, officers hats, etc., but I am not sure to what extent the infantry wore it on their headgear. Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Charles Sitwell Sent: 19 February 2000 11:16 am To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/17/0 9:19:11 AM, nos@granite.net.au writes: > > >http://www.freenet.msp.mn.us/org/mythos/mythos.www/GRAILINX.HTML > > > HPB and Secret Doctrine referenced - by connecting to > >http://user.fastinet.net/kalogonis/index/lance.htm > > > >From a page of links re: Sir Laurence Gardeners 'Bloodline of the Holy > >Grail' > > > >The Author has some interesting points but it all seems a bit twisted. > > Right. Although the aim of the site to discredit Hitler, the Nazis and the > "deniers of the holocaust" is well intentioned, the reference to Blavatsky as > the foundation of Hitler's occultism is more than twisted. It is quite > ignorant of the meaning of the word "occult" as well as the "swastika" -- > since, occultism, as related to theosophy, has a dual potential. That is, > for both Black as well as white Magic. And, this depends solely of the > "motives" for the actions of the practitioners -- which can be either in the > direction of "Universal brotherhood" and compassion for all sentient beings, > or toward the kind of evil, death cult practices engaged in by Hitler and his > Nazi followers. As for the swastika ... It two has a dual meaning -- > depending on the direction of its turning (clockwise or counterclockwise) and > whether or not its corners are sharply angled or curved. Therefore, the so > called "proof" given at the site that theosophy is related to the Nazi's, as > well as the beliefs and actions of Hitler, simply because the fifth root race > is called "Aryan" and the swastika appears on the symbol HPB designed for the > Theosophical Society -- is a false assumption... Since, the swastikas used by > Hitler and the one used by HPB (as an ancient symbol of the final stage of > universal evolution or emanation out of the absolute) turn in opposite > directions... One, indicating conquest by cruelty and force of arms, and the > other, toward benevolent peace and harmony. Thus, this reference to the > Secret Doctrine to prove that Hitler was an "Occultist" and, by implication, > that HPB, who taught occultism, was a proto nazi, and that all occultists are > evil, is completely unfair and unjust. > > LHM > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. I would like to venture to add a comment to this topic. (This is my first in this group, so hello everybody :-) ). The Swastika has been used for many hundreds of years as a religious symbol, by cultures as far apart as the Navaho Indians and asian Zen Buddhists. From its usage and from HPB's comments it represents (Possibly amongst other things) the forces of Divine manifestation in motion. The cross revolving with arms bent at the end to representation a revolving figure. The direction depends of course on Involution and Evolution (but also on the view from above or below. Just one more thought: Hitler's use was a very specific one: a black swastika on a red background (the dark forces moving in the field of physical activity?). In any case it was over half a century *after* HPB wrote about it, so any association (if any) was obviously of the Nazi's making. Finally any symbol can be abused and/or misapplied either intentionally or unintentionally. Charles Sitwell. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 19 23:25:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA24405 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:22:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <00f901bf7b61$64644400$fbde603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Bizarre HPB reference on Website Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:13:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > The top brass in Hitler's army did even LITERALLY have the swastika on their > headgear, officers hats, etc., but I am not sure to what extent the infantry > wore it on their headgear. > > Tony The swastika was not only used by the German army, but by many others too, f.e. in the armies of Finland, USA, GB, Japan. I have a book with such photos. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 20 06:19:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA21361 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:11:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Wisdom Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:04:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf7b9a$9cfa69a0$590e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 20 2000 Dallas offers: The question of "Wisdom" makes me think of some statements made in Theosophy A wise man once said: "Do not ask a question unless you intend to listen to the answer and inquire into its value." (WQJ Art. II 501) One of the basic ideas of Theosophy is: "Every living creature, of whatever description, was, is, or will become a human being in one or another Manvantara." [Transactions. p. 23] This implies that all being are in essence immortal and carry with them the indelible imprint of their experiences in terms of their present intelligence and capacities. In fact here is another statement: "Your only true greatness lies in your inner true self, and it is not desirous of obtaining the applause of others." [WQJ Art II 501] This is one reason why : "A 'trained intellect' may not be wholly opened to spiritual perceptions." And, "It is not necessary to be conscious of the progress one has made." [WQJ Art II 505] Since the human form is often considered to be an index of its achievements, Theosophy observes: "Man is a perfect animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress." [Transactions, p. 14] This "Monad" in Theosophy is the conjoined Spirit and Primordial Matter, or "Atma-Buddhi." [In this regard we could consult : SD I 172-5fn, 571-5 638-9, Trans. 39.] Atma is considered to be the permanent "ray" around which accumulate the "principles" that link it to the material being we call ourselves. Hence, it is said: "These principles are all aspects of one principle, and even this principle is but a temporary and periodical ray of the One eternal and in-finite Flame or Fire." Where does the "monad" come from? HPB answered this inquiry : "...the never manifested Monad which lives in solitude and darkness; when the hour strikes it radiates from itself ONE, the first number. This number descending, produces TWO, the second number, and TWO, in its turn, produces THREE, forming a triangle, the first complete geometrical figure in the world of form. It is this ideal or abstract triangle which is the Point in the Mundane Egg, which, after gestation, and in the third remove, will start from the Egg to form the triangle. This is Brahma-Vach-Viraj in the Hindu Philosophy and Kether-Chochmah-Binah in the Zohar. The first Manifested Logos is the Potentia, the unrevealed Cause; the second, the still latent Thought; the third, the Demiurgos, the active Will, evolving from its universal Self the active effect which in turn, be-comes the cause on a lower plane." [Transactions, p. 83] (see also SD I 130 - the "TWO ONES") This idea leads us to consider the metaphysical, cosmical Universal Plan for manifestation and the Universal Mind in which that Plan resides. As a natural concomitant to that are those perfect Men who are able to help implement this universal program. They are what we can make ourselves into if we will it. "Universal ideation was as soon as the Ah-hi appeared, and continues throughout the Manvantara...The "Ah-hi" pass though all the planes, beginning to manifest on the third. Like all other Hierarchies, on the highest plane they are arupa, i.e., formless, bodiless, without any substance, mere breaths. On the second plane, they first approach to Rupa, or form. On the third, they become Manasa-putras, those who become incarnated in man. With every plane they reach they are called by different names--there is a continual differentiation of their original homogeneous substance; we call it substance, although in reality it is no substance of which we can conceive. Later, they become Rupa--ethereal forms." [TRANS 22-24, see also SD I 213-222] "Universal or Absolute Mind always is during Pralaya as well as Manvantara; it is immutable. The Ah-hi are the highest Dhyanis, the Logoi...those who begin the downward evolution, or emanation...The Absolute is dormant, latent mind, and cannot be otherwise in true metaphysical perception; it is only Its shadow which becomes differentiated in the collectivity of these Dhyanis." [Transactions, p. 20] "Universal Mind, being only another name for the Absolute, out of time and space, this Cosmic Ideation, or Mind, is not an evolution at all (least of all a "creation"), but simply one of the aspects of the former, which known no change, which ever was, which is, and will be." [Transactions, p. 22] these statements are introduced here because they form the framework and background for any consideration of WISDOM. Wisdom is a knowledge of and a compliance with the great Law of karma, -- which rules the worlds and all living things. Wisdom and perception are related. But our world is one of constant change. Perception is that quality that identifies events and fixes them in memory. Concerning our present capacity to perceive and record, HPB said: "Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit separate from, and independent of, the One infinite and eternal SAT, or "be-ness." ... not only we, ourselves, but the whole visible and invisible universe, are only a temporary part of the one beginningless and endless WHOLE, or that which ever was, is, and will be." [Transactions, p. 31-2 -- see also SD I 37, where the question of time an perception are explained.] Theosophy considers that the whole Universe is orderly and its order is the result of vast and minute Laws that operate incessantly, everywhere and administer the relations between all beings. This area can be accessed by the human mind. Therefore HPB states that there is a Universal Mind. And she adds: "He who would profit by the wisdom of the universal mind, has to reach it through the whole of Humanity without distinction of race, complexion, religion or social status. It is altruism, not ego-ism even in its most legal and noble conceptions, that can lead the unit to merge its little Self in the Universal Selves. It is to these needs and to this work that the true disciple of true Occultism has to devote himself, if he would obtain theo-sophy, divine Wisdom and Knowledge." [HPB Art. II 107] One can observe that the whole of human life revolves about some necessary acts -- duties, responsibilities -- which have a primary part in sustaining our life and that of others around us. In fact one could say that the whole of life is cooperative -- a brotherhood in fact and action. Theosophy holds that the Brotherhood of the Adepts -- a band of men who have perfected themselves -- offer an example of this kind of attitude and work. Mr. Judge in an answer said: "We should emulate the great Brotherhood in its constant efforts to help Humanity...new ideas are projected among men and all good reforms are fostered... They offer to all men the truths of the Wisdom-Religion...leaving results to the law... Our plain duty is to present the truths of Theo-sophy to all men, leaving it to them to accept or reject." WQJ--FORUM ANS. 7 This actual Living Brotherhood is described in ISIS UNVEILED II 98 -103, SD II 202-3.] Theosophy also holds it to be a fact that the Spiritual Soul of each human being is in fact an aspect of the great Ideal -- the UNIVERSAL ONE SPIRIT -- of all Nature. In its nature and ability it contrasts sharply with the habitual selfishness and self-centerdness of the average individual. We might observe that potentially we are all Spiritual beings and our embodiment in a material form is an attempt by this spiritual "Self " to raise the quality and nature of the physical to its level of awareness. "Spirit" has not yet incarnated fully...towards the moment of this grand incarnation we are hastening...to settle the quest, whether we will become fit... Adepts or Mahatmas are men who are incarnated spirits. "Mr Judge wrote in answer to a query. [WQJ FORUM ANS. 2] And, HPB observes: "Only the homogeneous, the absolutely purified unalloyed spirit, can be reunited to the Deity or go to Brahma." [Transactions, p. 139] Wisdom and its acquirement is a process which purifies our embodied consciousness and makes compatible with the Universal Spirit and its all enveloping CONSCIOUSNESS . We are embraced in this, but we are not yet fully aware of it. To become "wise" is to deepen our awareness, and sharpen our application of this knowledge in daily and hourly living. On this subject HPB wrote further: "The "Master" in the Sanctuary of our souls is "the Higher Self"--the divine spirit whose consciousness is based upon and derived solely...from the Mind, which we have agreed to call the Human Soul (the "Spiritual Soul" being the vehicle of the Spirit). In its turn the former (the personal or human soul) is a compound in its highest form, of spiritual aspirations, volitions, and divine love; and in its lower aspect, of animal desires and terrestrial passions imparted to it by association with its vehicle, the seat of all these. It thus stands as a link and a medium between the animal nature of man which its higher reason seeks to subdue, and his divine spiritual nature to which it gravitates, whenever it has the upper hand in its struggle with the inner animal. The latter is the instinctual "animal Soul" and is the hotbed of those passions, which, as just shown, are lulled instead of being killed, and locked up in their breasts by some imprudent enthusiasts." [HPB Art II 105-6] Mr. Judge put it very simply, he said: "As the Great Adepts live in the plane of our inner nature, it must follow that they might be actively helping every one of us and we, as physical brain men, not be conscious of it on this plane." [WQJ Art. II 505] All this relates to the presence of the "Wise principle" (Buddhi) within each of us. How are we to acquire a deeper knowledge of it and its capabilities? HPB suggests that in Theosophy reside some of the great and important rules of Occultism. She wrote: "He who would be an occultist must not separate either himself or anything else from the rest of creation of non-creation. For the moment he distinguishes himself from even a vessel of dishonor, he will not be able to join himself to any vessel of honor. He must think of himself as an infinitesimal something, not even as an individual atom, but as a part of the world-atoms as a whole, or become an illusion, a nobody, and vanish like a breath leaving no trace behind. As illusions, we are separate distinct bodies, living in masks furnished by Maya...Everything, from spirit to the tiniest particle, is part of the whole, at best a link. Break a single link and all passes into annihilation; but this is impossible." [ Transactions, p. 138] the actual progress of anyone up the ladder of spirituality is through self-effort. We have to choose to do that, so we find HPB says: "The key in each degree is the aspirant himself." [HPB Art. II 97] In Occultism there is a process of development that draws student together and this HPB says is named "chelaship." We could use the English word: "Discipleship." It is a process of moral discipline and is entirely self-imposed. HPB states: "Chelaship is a state of mind, rather than a life according to hard and fast rules of the physical plane...the first and chief necessity of Chelaship is a spirit of absolute unselfishness and devotion to Truth; then follow self-knowledge and self-mastery." [HPB Art II 99] "...practical Occultism, which is but the lowest form of applied Metaphysics." [Transactions, p. 128[ To better understand the possible steps in development for a human mind we need to consider how Consciousness is to be defined. HPB states: "Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit separate from, and independent of, the One infinite and eternal Sat, or "be-ness."...not only we ourselves, but the whole visible and invisible universe, are only a temporary part of the one beginningless and endless WHOLE, or that which ever was, is, and will be." [Transactions 31-2] The whole development of knowledge that leads to wisdom occurs in our environment of space and time. "Space is neither a limitless void nor a conditioned fullness, but both." [Trans. p. 29] "Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist where no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced; but, "lies asleep." The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal duration which we call the future, from that part which we call the past. Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change--or the same--for the billionth part of a second; and the sensations we have of the actuality of the division of "time" known as the present, comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past…The real person or thing does of consist solely of what is seen at any particular moment, but, is composed of the sum of all its various and changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its disappearance from the earth. It is those "sum totals" that exist from eternity in the "future," and pass by degrees through matter, to exist for eternity in the "past." … persona and things … dropping out of the to-be into the has-been, out of the future into the past--present momentarily to our senses a cross section, as it were, of their total selves, as they pass through time and space (as matter) on their way from one eternity to another; and these two constitute that "duration" in which alone anything has true existence, were our senses but able to cognate it there." [SD I 37] We need to meditate and assimilate the meaning of these ideas if we are to make progress and better understand ourselves and our environment. The only stability we have and know is our SPIRITUAL SELF. All else changes, and yet, memory identifies what we have been right up to the last moment. Everything we do in the present is a choice that leads us into the "future." We shape our own future every instant. One might naturally ask: What is a Theosophist ? HPB answers: "...a Theosophist [is]...any person of average intellectual capacities, and a leaning toward the metaphysical; of pure, unselfish life, who finds more joy in helping his neighbor than in receiving help himself; one who is ever ready to sacrifice his own pleasures for the sake of other people; and who loves Truth, Goodness and Wisdom for their own sake, not for the benefit they may confer--{he or she} is a Theosophist." [HPB Art. II 91] What then are our responsibilities as we acquire wisdom ? Mr. Judge answers: "Our plain duty is to present the truths of Theosophy to all men, leaving it to them to accept or reject."[WQJ FORUM ANS. 7 We might surmise that any increase in knowledge can lead to wisdom. But the actual barrier to wisdom is found to exist in our own motives for learning. We can easily acquire masses of data. But, how will we use them? The test is of the moral fiber and the purposes we consider essential for ourselves, and this is true for each individual. Therefore we find that HPB wrote: "...it is the motive, and the motive alone, which makes any exercise of power become black, malignant, or white, beneficent Magic. It is impossible to employ spiritual forces if there is the slightest tinge of selfishness remaining in the operator. For, unless the intention is entirely unalloyed, the spiritual will transform itself into the psychic, act on the astral plane, and dire results may be produced by it." [HPB Art. II 92] It has been said in all ancient philosophies that the Goal for mankind is Perfection. HPB observes cryptically: "only the homogeneous, the absolutely purified unalloyed spirit can be reunited to the Deity or go to Brahma." [Transactions, p. 139] At the very end of the third Fragment of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, the devotee, the chela who has remade himself, and is faced with Perfection is offered a final question and choice Will he elect to retire into selfish Nirvana? Or, will he elect to remain involved in Nature's vast School, and be of continued assistance to his fellow men. Eventually this choice will face us all. Offered in the hope that this will evoke questions and further dialog. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 20 10:35:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA02453 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:16:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <002001bf7bbd$891bf750$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 08:14:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hello, What's the story behind the counter-clockwise swastika being used as part of the theosophical seal on publications of the Pasadena based Theosopical Publishing Company texts. Years ago I wrote them, but never received an answer. Eugene -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 04:07:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id DAA26059 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:48:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:41:09 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002001bf7bbd$891bf750$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pippin.imagiware.com id DAA26057 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Eugene, The Swastika has little to do with the workings of the Theosophical Publishing company, as such. If you wish to find out more about this symbol have a look as H.P.Blavatsky's +ACI-Secret Doctrine+ACI-, especially volume 2, pages 98 onwards. Here is a an extract from it below. ...Peter THE SWASTIKA, from SD II pages 98 onwards: The Svastica, the most sacred and mystic symbol in India, the +ACI-Jaina-Cross+ACI- as it is now called by the Masons, notwithstanding its direct connection, and even identity with the Christian Cross, has become dishonoured in the same manner. It is the +ACI-devil's sign,+ACI- we are told by the Indian missionaries. +ACI-Does it not shine on the head of the great Serpent of Vishnu, on the thousand headed Sesha-Ananta, in the depths of Patala, the Hindu Naraka or Hell+ACI-? It does: but what is Ananta? As Sesha, it is the almost endless Manvantaric cycle of time, and becomes infinite Time itself, when called Ananta, the great seven-headed Serpent, on which rests Vishnu, the eternal Deity, during Pralayic inactivity. What has Satan to do with this highly metaphysical symbol? The Svastica is the most philosophically scientific of all symbols, as also the most comprehensible. It is the summary in a few lines of the whole work of creation, or evolution, as one should rather say, from Cosmo-theogony down to Anthro-pogony, from the indivisible unknown Parabrahm to the humble moneron of materialistic science, whose genesis is as unknown to that science as is that of the All-Deity itself. The Svastica is found heading the religious symbols of every old nation. It is the +ACI-Worker's Hammer+ACI- in the Chaldean Book of Numbers, the +ACI-Hammer+ACI- just referred to in the +ACI-Book of Concealed Mystery+ACI- (Ch. I., +AKcApw- 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.), +ACI-which striketh sparks from the flint+ACI- (Space), those sparks becoming worlds. It is +ACI-Thor's Hammer,+ACI- the magic weapon forged by the dwarfs against the Giants, or the pre-cosmic Titanic forces of Nature, which rebel and, while alive in the region of matter, will not be subdued by the Gods, the Agents of Universal Harmony, but have first to be destroyed. This is why the world is formed out of the relics of the murdered Ymir. The Svastica is the Miolnir, the +ACI-storm-hammer+ACIAOw- and therefore it is said that when the Ases, the holy gods, after having been purified and suffering in their life-incarnations), become fit to dwell in Ida in eternal peace, then Miolnir will become useless. This will be when the bonds of Hel (the goddess-queen of the region of the Dead) will bind them no longer, for the kingdom of evil will have passed away. +ACI-Surtur's flames had not destroyed them, nor yet had the raging waters+ACI- of the several deluges. . . . . +ACI-Then came the sons of Thor. They brought Miolnir with them, no longer as a weapon of war, but as the hammer with which to consecrate the new heaven and the new Earth. . . . . +ACIAKg- Verily many are its meanings+ACE- In the Macrocosmic work, the +ACI-HAMMER OF CREATION,+ACI- with its four arms bent at right angles, refers to the continual motion and revolution of the invisible Kosmos of Forces. In that of the manifested Kosmos and our Earth, it points to the rotation in the cycles of Time of the world's axes and their equatorial belts+ADs- the two lines forming the Svastica +AFsAWw-diagram+AF0AXQ- meaning Spirit and Matter, the four hooks suggesting the motion in the revolving cycles. Applied to the Microcosm, Man, it shows him to be a link between heaven and Earth: the right hand being raised at the end of a horizontal arm, the left pointing to the Earth. In the Smaragdine Tablet of Hermes, the uplifted right hand is inscribed with the word +ACI-Solve,+ACI- the left with the word +ACI-Coagula.+ACI- It is at one and the same time an Alchemical, Cosmogonical, Anthropological, and Magical sign, with seven keys to its inner meaning. It is not too much to say that the compound symbolism of this universal and most suggestive of signs contains the key to the seven great mysteries of Kosmos. Born in the mystical conceptions of the early Aryans, and by them placed at the very threshold of eternity, on the head of the serpent Ananta, it found its spiritual death in the scholastic interpretations of mediaeval Anthropomorphists. It is the Alpha and the Omega of universal creative Force, evolving from pure Spirit and ending in gross Matter. It is also the key to the cycle of Science, divine and human+ADs- and he who comprehends its full meaning is for ever liberated from the toils of Mahamaya, the great Illusion and Deceiver. The light that shines from under the divine hammer, now degraded into the mallet or gavel of the Grand Masters of Masonic Lodges, is sufficient to dissipate the darkness of any human schemes or fictions. --------- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 07:52:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA11963 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:32:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Scapegoats and Sacrifice Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:25:16 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf7c6f$1a171e40$530e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 21 2000 Sacrifice What does it imply? Can error and deliberate wrong doing in the past by an individual be mitigated? Can the surrender of some cherished possession, or the adopting of some ritual or discipline do this for us? What first comes to mind is the fact that such a situation arises because of the nagging of "conscience." In such cases, there is an internal awareness of a uniform code of moral behavior, and the persona who feels remorse (and fears consequences) seeks to make amends. In many cases the consideration of making a sacrifice causes an active search for a short-cut to mental peace, and a cessation of worry about a retributive future is sought for. It is hoped that by some kind of sacrifice we might still secure personal "absolution and salvation." That which is now the strongest motivator is an active fear of the reprisals of Nature (which are sensed -- correctly -- as resulting eventually in personal suffering. It is hoped (by the sinner who is afraid of the consequences of his sins) that through appropriate (but not too expensive) sacrifices an escape from the anticipated painful future, can be arranged. In steps the theologian or priest to whom this psychological dilemma is all too familiar. He claims to have the ear of "God" and can arrange the matter for an appropriate fee. At this point, Theosophy would suggest that regardless of what rituals or payment are suggested as "sacrifices" we ought to inquire into the principle of that which "sacrifice" implies. In a very broad manner one might approach the subject as follows: Sacrifice as a subject seems to require some consideration as to Why it is contemplated, Who sacrifices, What is sacrificed, and, what is the Goal or end-result of any sacrifice. Let us look around us at our situation. Is not the whole of Nature (our environment) a living example of "sacrifice?" Is not living according to the Law a sacrifice? Is it not a method of making our life "sacred" something in terms of one's desire ? If our desire starts this inquiry, then will we not engage our Mind and cause it to consider our desires, thoughts and deeds? Is not working for "free" a sacrifice? The average person thinks of sacrifice as giving away of some cherished possession. But, what do we own? Often we think of home, money, our time and energy, etc. as things that could be offered in charity, or to a "good cause." Some "Advantage" we have "accumulated" may be considered to be surrendered -- and often that seems to be the limit to "sacrifice and charity." We might say we surrender control over some personal acquisition and this is done, very often, in the hope of some "reward." We hear (for instance) of sacrifice as "restitution" when, after "confessing ones' sins" we are ordered (or we decide on our own) to make amends and perhaps to try to modify the effects we have caused by our earlier pleasant (to us) "sinning." And thus by a present "sacrifice" we hope to avoid some anticipated, vague, jeopardy. Thus for some sacrifice is wrapped in remorse -- of the awareness of sinning (or transgressing against the Laws of Nature and of Man). Our Voice of Conscience nags at us. Something interior to us reminds us of deeds that were unfair to others which we did. For the student of Theosophy the concept of Karma and its mitigation jumps to mind. Sacrificial actions (desires, thoughts and deeds included) would be the outcome of a knowledge of how Karma operates. It demands acknowledging responsibility for our choices and motives. It suggests that we acquire a knowledge that will show us how to consider the brotherhood of all Nature, and preview the potential effect of our choices on those things and persons we interact with -- so that we may harmonize with all around us. It also suggests that such a study will bring us to know what our natural and personal duties are. If we are able to make our lives "karma-less" and "of service to others" then it is suggested we automatically learn of the rights and privileges of a true human being. WE may see, if this concept is adopted by us, that we will begin to alter our personal nature so that it may more closely mirror the real INDIVIDUAL who we are and who we have so far imprisoned in us, and which we may acknowledge as our "HIGHER SELF." So the consideration of sacrifice begins with the thinking of the Personal self. It leads to the consideration of virtues as opposed to selfish ambitious plans and acts. It demands as part of its further consideration an absolute honesty -- no excuses are to be considered or accepted for things done ill, and, as for the future a steadfast resolution to avoid any further harmful actions or thoughts directed at others is to be implemented immediately and resolutely sustained into the future. This is an aspect of what is called "meditation." It means a review of, and a true, honest appraisal of the advantages and disadvantages of our personal character. It is a kind of inventory that represents "ourselves" as we now are. But this is not carved in stone. It represents a basis for consideration -- as we inevitable will make changes from then on. So any review ought to be progressive and not merely a return to views held in the past. The future and the present are always to be foremost in our minds' eye. >From the point of view of the student of Theosophy, we see that the Lower Self (Kama-Manas, or the embodied mind) makes a review and seeks to improve itself. For this it needs ideals, a concept of virtue as opposed to its exaggerations (vice) . It therefore demands that "both sides of the picture" be considered. Thereby, it acknowledges a third position -- that is the one of medianship -- of the central one, where impartiality permits us to see "both sides," and allows this central "arbiter" to be a judge -- a judge who has to make itself progressively wiser so as to make its decisions more harmonious. It seems that while we are dealing with known faults and errors, and that which we may call our own "character" and, its capacities, talents and deficiencies, we need to grow in the range of our own perceptions. If we are going to "improve" we need to find some source of knowledge and information, such that will give us the broadest base for our use, and, the necessary tools for evaluating it. It may be suggested here that such tools need to be impartial, universal and therefore capable of use by anyone, at any time and in any situation. If this process of review has been correct, then we, the inner Perceiver, the Witness of our living, the Decision maker, direct our chief tool -- our MIND, to search our memory to determine our moral position in many respects as to our "past." We visualize the possibility of improvement. We consider our environment, and relations with others who also live (or lived) with us. We ask ourselves if, in this living environment, there are already some well-established rules and laws which we need to become better aware of. We seek to gather additional information that will confirm or modify what we already know. We seek to assure ourselves of its accuracy and "truth." How do we assure ourselves of their universality, impersonality, applicability, and whether we need (or not) to secure and use this type of information. But coming back to the average concept of persons who are aware of evil having been done, and who seek to escape the consequences of that. We find that priesthood was well aware of the power of magnetism and the fact that associated with evil deeds are elementals and elementaries of the astral plane which attach themselves to such things. In trying to divert or eliminate the power that such beings have over the future (as skandhas) they tried to devise "sacrifices" of animal blood and life, which might serve to pacify (for a while) those terrible and powerful astral beings. By suggesting and adopting these they compounded the offense by using a black magic process to effect a temporary delay. Theosophy states that no such superficial rites will mitigate any karmic debt. The only way in which mitigation can be secured is to find out how to make amends to the victims of our evil treatment in the past. When this is not possible, then the effort to change our way of living. And, in addition we may make strong effort to secure that wisdom which will give us the understanding of karmic action and karmic precipitations, that will enable us to stand anything we will receive as our due. [ Some correlate references may be seen On ceremonial magic SD I 466 605-6 234fn SD II 92 427fn 566 748 ISIS I xlii-iii 362 ISIS II 46 LIGHT ON THE PATH 40-1 THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY 13 58 304-5 319 329-30 HPB Articles II 341 III 99 140-2 WQJ Articles I 395 Vedic Ceremonials SD I 422-4 Scapegoat T. Gloss 46 48 129 293 347 SD I 412 II 510 Isis II 513 547 Gita Notes 88-89 LUCIFER VII p. 478 I hope this may prove to be of help Dallas dalval@nwc.net =========================== -----Original Message----- From: Carl [mailto:carmil1@webtv.net] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 5:35 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: scapegoats and sacrifice Reed: It is certainly true that the English term "scape-goat" is in some way derived from the word "escape." However, if we read the account in the Book of Leviticus, we find that what really happened was tragic for this animal. First of all, we are talking of a domesticated animal that had been cared for by a shepherd or herdsman all of its life. It was then presented to the priest. With a roll of the dice, one goat was marked for Yahweh, which meant that it would be slaughtered on the altar, but the other goat was marked for Azazel, which meant that it would be driven into the wilderness to be eaten by wild animals. So, I question whether "escape" is the proper term for the fate the second goat. Not only was the slaughter of animals on the Hebrew altar inhumane, but so was the abusive treatment of the "scape-goat." And it was all done to demonstrate a point - allegorical though it was, the ritual itself was very real for the animal who was being abused. I personally can find no justification for violence against animals in any form. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 12:52:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA13164 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:29:53 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <003101bf7c99$585ec6b0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:27:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Peter, Thankyou very much. You didn't type all this out of a book did you? Is there a copy of the Secret Doctrine on CD ROM available? But. What I'm curious about is why the seal of the Theosophical Society has a clockwise swastika which seems correct, but many books published by the Pasadena group have a seal with the counterclockwise symbol in the seal. This latter seems a mistake. It seems to me that someone made a mistake and misprinted the seal. No one will explain this. Thanks for the information. Sincerely, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Peter Merriott +ADw-caduceus+AEA-dial.pipex.com+AD4- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 3:39 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4-Dear Eugene, +AD4- +AD4-The Swastika has little to do with the workings of the Theosophical Publishing company, as such. If you wish to find out more about this symbol have a look as H.P.Blavatsky's +ACI-Secret Doctrine+ACI-, especially volume 2, pages 98 onwards. Here is a an extract from it below. +AD4- +AD4-...Peter +AD4- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 15:18:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id PAA31373 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:01:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:55:26 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003101bf7c99$585ec6b0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pippin.imagiware.com id PAA31371 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Eugene, Fortunately there is a copy of the Secret Doctrine on line at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm As to the different directions of the swastika - the one on page 99 in SD II is the opposite direction to the one on the cover of the same SD, even in the original edition. I wonder if it depends on whether we are on the outside looking in, or the inside looking out? I suppose we could say with these two actual symbols that one is on the 'outside' while the other (p99) is on the inside, but that is just speculation on my part. best wishes ...Peter +AD4- -----Original Message----- +AD4- From: owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AFs-mailto:owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AF0-On Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter +AD4- Sent: 21 February 2000 18:28 +AD4- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- Dear Peter, +AD4- +AD4- Thankyou very much. You didn't type all this out of a book did you? Is +AD4- there a copy of the Secret Doctrine on CD ROM available? +AD4- +AD4- But. What I'm curious about is why the seal of the Theosophical +AD4- Society has +AD4- a clockwise swastika which seems correct, but many books published by the +AD4- Pasadena group have a seal with the counterclockwise symbol in the seal. +AD4- This latter seems a mistake. It seems to me that someone made a +AD4- mistake and +AD4- misprinted the seal. No one will explain this. +AD4- +AD4- Thanks for the information. +AD4- Sincerely, +AD4- Eugene +AD4- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 15:27:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id PAA32271 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:10:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B1A7E3.2525FCBC@theosophycompany.org> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:02:28 -0800 From: Gail Stevenson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@theosophy.com" Subject: Theos-World Symbolism of the Swastica Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I thought this article (from THEOSOPHY, vol. 2, Jan-Feb 1999) might be of interest in a discussion of the swastica: AN ANCIENT WORLD-SYMBOL THE SWASTICA is an ancient world-symbol that is filled with occult meaning. It is an alchemical, cosmological, anthropological, and magical sign, and contains seven keys to its inner meaning. Its symbolism explains great mysteries of the Kosmos. It is the sign of the universal creative force, evolving from pure spirit into gross matter, and contracting back into spirit in an endless cyclic process. Early in The Secret Doctrine, HBP discusses the meaning of a progressive series of symbols. First an empty circle appears, then a diameter bisects it, followed by a cross within a circle and, finally, a swastica within a circle. The circle with a diameter represents divine nature within absolute infinitude. The cross within the circle represents the beginning of human life. The swastica has the same, as well as other, meanings. It is called the male and female sign, and appears in an ancient Indian Catechism, on the hermaphrodite goddess Adanari, in place of the navel, symbolizing the pre-sexual state of the Third Race. In the Macrocosm, the central point of the swastica represents Deity. The lines of the cross represent spirit and matter, and the four arms bent at right angles represent the perpetual motion (cycles) of the forces of visible and invisible Kosmos. Applied to the Microcosm, the symbol represents man as the link between heaven and earth. He stands with right hand pointing to heaven and left hand pointing to Earth. The lines of the cross represent the male and female principles in nature, or the positive and negative. The decussated cross, "X," was used by the Hindus, Brahmins and Buddhists, thousands of years before it appeared in Europe. They bent the ends and made of it the swastica, or Wan of the Buddhist Mongolian. It implies that the central point, the Deific principle, is not limited. The four arms point toward the four cardinal directions and end in infinity. Thus Deity is in all in nature, and all in nature is in Deity. The swastica is symbolized by the figure 6. Like that figure it points to the zenith and nadir, as well as the four cardinal directions. It is the symbol of Fohat, of the continual revolution of cycles, and of the four sacred Elements in their mystical and cosmical meanings. One who understands the meaning of the swastica, according to the Commentaries quoted in The Secret Doctrine, understands the relationship of the visible to the invisible, and can trace both the evolution of the Kosmos and the appearance of man and all of the creatures. H.P.B. also relates the swastica to the worship of Agni (fire), or the sun: Whenever the ancient Hindu devotee desired to worship Agni...he arranged two pieces of wood in the form of a cross, and, by a peculiar whirling and friction obtained fire for his sacrifice. As a symbol, it is called Swastica, and, as an instrument manufactured out of a sacred tree and in possession of every Brahmin, it is known as Arani. In a footnote elsewhere in The Secret Doctrine, H.P.B. explains that the arani and pramantha were the stick and perforated vessel for kindling fire among the ancient Brahmins. The name, Prometheus, came from pramantha. Prometheus stole the sacred and celestial fire which then became the terrestrial fire, that of procreation and therefore phallic. He kindles the spark of life in man and teaches him the mysteries of creation, which from Kriyasakti, falls into the selfish act of procreation. The Scandinavians had the same sign and called it Thor's Hammer. Thor, the god of thunder, held this symbol as a sign of power over men and the elements. In Masonry it appears as the grand master's mallet, and in modern times, it is the gavel of the judge, a sign of power and strength. HPB calls the swastica a most mystic and ancient diagram, saying also that it is as sacred to occultists as the Pythagorean Tetraktys, "of which it is indeed the double symbol." The swastica is also known as the Jaina Cross and has the same meaning as the ansated Egyptian cross, or tau, and the Christian cross. ______________ The sources for this article are: The Secret Doctrine, vol. I, 5, 31, 657; vol. II, 29, 99, 101fn, 556, 587 HPB Theosophical Articles, vol. II 490; vol. III, 251-2 The Theosophical Glossary, 315 Gail Stevenson -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 17:18:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA14718 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:13:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <015801bf7cc0$fb276010$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:11:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Thankyou, Peter, I wonder too. Why would the official seal have it one way and then another. Here at the L.A. County Dept. of Corner I occassionaly see where a violent young man has all these symbols of hate and death tattooed on his body and then there will be this home-made swastika meant to be the Nazi symbol but turning the wrong way and meaning the opposite of that intended. Sincerely, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Peter Merriott +ADw-caduceus+AEA-dial.pipex.com+AD4- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:16 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4-Hi Eugene, +AD4- +AD4-Fortunately there is a copy of the Secret Doctrine on line at: +AD4- +AD4-http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm +AD4- +AD4-As to the different directions of the swastika - the one on page 99 in SD II is the opposite direction to the one on the cover of the same SD, even in the original edition. I wonder if it depends on whether we are on the outside looking in, or the inside looking out? I suppose we could say with these two actual symbols that one is on the 'outside' while the other (p99) is on the inside, but that is just speculation on my part. +AD4- +AD4-best wishes +AD4-...Peter +AD4- +AD4- +AD4APg- -----Original Message----- +AD4APg- From: owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4APg- +AFs-mailto:owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AF0-On Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter +AD4APg- Sent: 21 February 2000 18:28 +AD4APg- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4APg- Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4APg- +AD4APg- +AD4APg- Dear Peter, +AD4APg- +AD4APg- Thankyou very much. You didn't type all this out of a book did you? Is +AD4APg- there a copy of the Secret Doctrine on CD ROM available? +AD4APg- +AD4APg- But. What I'm curious about is why the seal of the Theosophical +AD4APg- Society has +AD4APg- a clockwise swastika which seems correct, but many books published by the +AD4APg- Pasadena group have a seal with the counterclockwise symbol in the seal. +AD4APg- This latter seems a mistake. It seems to me that someone made a +AD4APg- mistake and +AD4APg- misprinted the seal. No one will explain this. +AD4APg- +AD4APg- Thanks for the information. +AD4APg- Sincerely, +AD4APg- Eugene +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4--- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AD4-Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and +AD4-teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of +AD4AIg-subscribe+ACI- or +ACI-unsubscribe+ACI- to theos-talk-request+AEA-theosophy.com. +AD4- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 20:12:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA01140 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:08:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <001501bf7cd8$eb265000$f4c616d0@rodak> From: "Jim Rodak" To: References: +ADw-015801bf7cc0+ACQ-fb276010+ACQ-2920020a+AEA-toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us+AD4- Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:02:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Greetings: I have followed the discussion on the +ACI-swastika+ACI- symbol with interest. Needless to say, it has been an education re: the theosophical interpretation of the symbol. Does anyone have definitive knowledge as to when and why the German Nazi regime adopted the symbol and what it was supposed to represent in their movement? I do not intend this question to be a springboard into a long, drawnout discussion re: The Third German Reich or Naziism. Respectfully, Jim Rodak ----- Original Message ----- From: +ACI-Eugene Carpenter+ACI- +ADw-ecarpent+AEA-co.la.ca.us+AD4- To: +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4- Thankyou, Peter, +AD4- +AD4- I wonder too. Why would the official seal have it one way and then another. +AD4- +AD4- Here at the L.A. County Dept. of Corner I occassionaly see where a violent +AD4- young man has all these symbols of hate and death tattooed on his body and +AD4- then there will be this home-made swastika meant to be the Nazi symbol but +AD4- turning the wrong way and meaning the opposite of that intended. +AD4- +AD4- Sincerely, +AD4- Eugene +AD4- -----Original Message----- +AD4- From: Peter Merriott +ADw-caduceus+AEA-dial.pipex.com+AD4- +AD4- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- +AD4- Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:16 PM +AD4- Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-Hi Eugene, +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-Fortunately there is a copy of the Secret Doctrine on line at: +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-As to the different directions of the swastika - the one on page 99 in SD +AD4- II is the opposite direction to the one on the cover of the same SD, even in +AD4- the original edition. I wonder if it depends on whether we are on the +AD4- outside looking in, or the inside looking out? I suppose we could say with +AD4- these two actual symbols that one is on the 'outside' while the other (p99) +AD4- is on the inside, but that is just speculation on my part. +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-best wishes +AD4- +AD4-...Peter +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4APg- -----Original Message----- +AD4- +AD4APg- From: owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AD4APg- +AFs-mailto:owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AF0-On Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter +AD4- +AD4APg- Sent: 21 February 2000 18:28 +AD4- +AD4APg- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AD4APg- Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4APg- Dear Peter, +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4APg- Thankyou very much. You didn't type all this out of a book did you? Is +AD4- +AD4APg- there a copy of the Secret Doctrine on CD ROM available? +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4APg- But. What I'm curious about is why the seal of the Theosophical +AD4- +AD4APg- Society has +AD4- +AD4APg- a clockwise swastika which seems correct, but many books published by the +AD4- +AD4APg- Pasadena group have a seal with the counterclockwise symbol in the seal. +AD4- +AD4APg- This latter seems a mistake. It seems to me that someone made a +AD4- +AD4APg- mistake and +AD4- +AD4APg- misprinted the seal. No one will explain this. +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4APg- Thanks for the information. +AD4- +AD4APg- Sincerely, +AD4- +AD4APg- Eugene +AD4- +AD4APg- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4--- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and +AD4- +AD4-teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of +AD4- +AD4AIg-subscribe+ACI- or +ACI-unsubscribe+ACI- to theos-talk-request+AEA-theosophy.com. +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +AD4- +AD4- Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and +AD4- teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of +AD4- +ACI-subscribe+ACI- or +ACI-unsubscribe+ACI- to theos-talk-request+AEA-theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 21 23:30:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA17052 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:26:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B21C99.AF043F29@ojai.net> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:20:25 -0800 From: barrett culmback X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal References: +ADw-015801bf7cc0+ACQ-fb276010+ACQ-2920020a+AEA-toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us+AD4- <001501bf7cd8$eb265000$f4c616d0@rodak> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------80A4FDE57C4E8064C46FCBDE" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------80A4FDE57C4E8064C46FCBDE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Rodak wrote: > Greetings: > > I have followed the discussion on the +ACI-swastika+ACI- symbol with interest. > Needless to say, it has been an education re: the theosophical > interpretation of the symbol. Does anyone have definitive knowledge as to > when and why the German Nazi regime adopted the symbol and what it was > supposed to represent in their movement? I do not intend this question to > be a springboard into a long, drawnout discussion re: The Third German Reich > or Naziism. Respectfully, Jim Rodak You might try looking for the book "The Morning of the Magicians" by Bergier and (someone whose name I've forgotten). Believe it's out of print, but it may be searchable on the Web (e.g., http://www.alltheweb.com). It has quite a long section pertaining to your question. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: +ACI-Eugene Carpenter+ACI- +ADw-ecarpent+AEA-co.la.ca.us+AD4- > To: +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal > > +AD4- Thankyou, Peter, > +AD4- > +AD4- I wonder too. Why would the official seal have it one way and then > another. > +AD4- > +AD4- Here at the L.A. County Dept. of Corner I occassionaly see where a violent > +AD4- young man has all these symbols of hate and death tattooed on his body and > +AD4- then there will be this home-made swastika meant to be the Nazi symbol but > +AD4- turning the wrong way and meaning the opposite of that intended. > +AD4- > +AD4- Sincerely, > +AD4- Eugene > +AD4- -----Original Message----- > +AD4- From: Peter Merriott +ADw-caduceus+AEA-dial.pipex.com+AD4- > +AD4- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com +ADw-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AD4- > +AD4- Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:16 PM > +AD4- Subject: RE: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal > +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-Hi Eugene, > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-Fortunately there is a copy of the Secret Doctrine on line at: > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-As to the different directions of the swastika - the one on page 99 in > SD > +AD4- II is the opposite direction to the one on the cover of the same SD, even > in > +AD4- the original edition. I wonder if it depends on whether we are on the > +AD4- outside looking in, or the inside looking out? I suppose we could say > with > +AD4- these two actual symbols that one is on the 'outside' while the other > (p99) > +AD4- is on the inside, but that is just speculation on my part. > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-best wishes > +AD4- +AD4-...Peter > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4APg- -----Original Message----- > +AD4- +AD4APg- From: owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com > +AD4- +AD4APg- +AFs-mailto:owner-theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com+AF0-On Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter > +AD4- +AD4APg- Sent: 21 February 2000 18:28 > +AD4- +AD4APg- To: theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com > +AD4- +AD4APg- Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4APg- Dear Peter, > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4APg- Thankyou very much. You didn't type all this out of a book did you? > Is > +AD4- +AD4APg- there a copy of the Secret Doctrine on CD ROM available? > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4APg- But. What I'm curious about is why the seal of the Theosophical > +AD4- +AD4APg- Society has > +AD4- +AD4APg- a clockwise swastika which seems correct, but many books published by > the > +AD4- +AD4APg- Pasadena group have a seal with the counterclockwise symbol in the > seal. > +AD4- +AD4APg- This latter seems a mistake. It seems to me that someone made a > +AD4- +AD4APg- mistake and > +AD4- +AD4APg- misprinted the seal. No one will explain this. > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4APg- Thanks for the information. > +AD4- +AD4APg- Sincerely, > +AD4- +AD4APg- Eugene > +AD4- +AD4APg- > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4--- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- +AD4-Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > +AD4- +AD4-teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > +AD4- +AD4AIg-subscribe+ACI- or +ACI-unsubscribe+ACI- to theos-talk-request+AEA-theosophy.com. > +AD4- +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- > +AD4- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk+AEA-theosophy.com > +AD4- > +AD4- Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > +AD4- teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > +AD4- +ACI-subscribe+ACI- or +ACI-unsubscribe+ACI- to theos-talk-request+AEA-theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. --------------80A4FDE57C4E8064C46FCBDE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="bharata.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for barrett culmback Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bharata.vcf" begin:vcard n:culmback;barrett x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html org:rtd.;EasternReligions/Philosophy adr:;;;Oak View;CA;93022-9334;USA version:2.1 email;internet:bharata@ojai.net title:prof. note:Interested in consciousness, meditation, internet, searchengines, browsers, ICQ, IRC, technology, Eastern Religions, mysticism, THEOSOPHY. fn:barrett culmback end:vcard --------------80A4FDE57C4E8064C46FCBDE-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 22 20:01:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA10837 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:58:02 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf7da0$ad021f20$9998b2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <000201bf7b9a$9cfa69a0$590e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Wisdom Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:35:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a good one. Thanks Dallas. This is very interesting, and something to put into the scrap-book Thanks Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 4:04 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Wisdom > Feb 20 2000 > > Dallas offers: The question of "Wisdom" makes me think of some > statements made in Theosophy > > > > A wise man once said: "Do not ask a question unless you intend > to listen to the answer and inquire into its value." (WQJ Art. II > 501) -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 09:23:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id JAA07368 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:15:44 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000223090933.01d3cc70@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:09:33 -0600 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net Subject: Theos-World CW Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Which volume of CW has the EST materials? -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 09:25:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id JAA07477 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:17:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000223091047.01f03560@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:10:47 -0600 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net Subject: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I just found out that the TV show has a segment titled Blavatsky. Has anyone seen the episode? -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 17:57:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA20852 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:50:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:16:16 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000223091047.01f03560@mail.eden.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I am a big B&B fan but have not seen what you are referring to. Do you know a particluar episode title? The creator Mike Judge also makes other films and works - One of them if i recall rightly , Office Space, I think, actually gelled with my philosophy a lot so it is possible he is in the know.... namaste nos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of ramadoss@eden.com > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:41 AM > To: theos-l@list.vnet.net > Subject: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head > > > I just found out that the TV show has a segment titled Blavatsky. Has > anyone seen the episode? > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 19:26:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA28998 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:00:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000223185440.01a76b90@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:54:40 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000223091047.01f03560@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I just read about a video of the BB episodes and was surprised that one was on Blavatsky. Let me see if I can get hold of the video. On the positive side, the younger generations are being introduced to Blavatsky and that may be good. At a later stage in life when HPB is mentioned it may kindle their interest. This is a very positive development in the current stage when most of those interested in Theosophy are older people with very few of current younger generation. May be you see the unseen hand of the powers be in action in most unexpected ways. mkr At 10:16 AM 02/24/2000 +1030, you wrote: >I am a big B&B fan but have not seen what you are referring to. Do you know >a particluar episode title? > >The creator Mike Judge also makes other films and works - One of them if i >recall rightly , Office Space, I think, actually gelled with my philosophy a >lot so it is possible he is in the know.... > >namaste > > >nos > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com >> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of ramadoss@eden.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:41 AM >> To: theos-l@list.vnet.net >> Subject: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head >> >> >> I just found out that the TV show has a segment titled Blavatsky. Has >> anyone seen the episode? >> >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 20:26:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA05141 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:17:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: THEMAZEMAN@aol.com Message-ID: <6e.101ac49.25e5ed40@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:11:12 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head (Escape to Witch Mountain) To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 47 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ramadoss@eden.com writes: > I just read about a video of the BB episodes and was surprised that one was > on Blavatsky. Let me see if I can get hold of the video. I'm not surprised, because Blavatsky also shows up in movies like "Escape to Witch Mountain." old movie, eddie albert et al http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303315607/recommendations There are theosophical points of view in both movies, but they are especially strong in the remake. I don't remember her name being mentioned in the old Eddie Albert movie, but in the remake, they specifically refer to Madame Blavatsky's Crystal Ball. Each time I read the book, or see either movie, I see things that I love. (Wish I could quote it verbatim). The children are told that we all have the light with us, but some of us have forgotten. I highly recommend the movie. The old movie is out on video http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303315607/recommendations The new movie shows up fairly frequently on Disney Channel. I've recorded it at least twice, but I don't know where the tapes are, but even if I did, I wouldn't mail it out, sorry. Maybe I can dig it up and bring it to the April meeting in Sulphur Springs. John Click here: http://www.myfamily .com/photocontest Scroll down, put in "maze" for the title and click SEARCH. Look for "Be My Amazing Valentine." Click on its picture. Download it, Print it, and give it to your Amazing Valentine. It is an actual maze. There is exactly one solution. And, of course, BE SURE TO VOTE FOR IT. You can vote for other people too, but vote for me first, please. Also: Click here: I won the first Mind Sports Olympiad Programming Tournament (press release). The next contest is February 13 to 20 at www.MS OWorld.com/programming.html. First prize is $500 and a chance to compete for more at their convention. John -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 23:00:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA20233 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:46:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B41EE2.B2286C74@syd.net.au> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:54:42 +1100 From: Lucio X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, References: +ADw-015801bf7cc0+ACQ-fb276010+ACQ-2920020a+AEA-toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us+AD4- <001501bf7cd8$eb265000$f4c616d0@rodak> <38B21C99.AF043F29@ojai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Jim My answer to your question is very short for now The svanstica cross means Dinamic force into action In our world of change.This causes a vortex of energy that disturb order.and caos bringing into being new forms and olso destroying form,to produce change the symbol is very ancient. the choice of the nazi using it was very appropriate for we all now the misery broght about by ignorance. Humanity does not have to withstand self inflicted pain in order to grow. barrett culmback wrote: > Jim Rodak wrote: > > > Greetings: > > > > I have followed the discussion on the +ACI-swastika+ACI- symbol with interest. > > Needless to say, it has been an education re: the theosophical > > interpretation of the symbol. Does anyone have definitive knowledge as to > > when and why the German Nazi regime adopted the symbol and what it was > > supposed to represent in their movement? I do not intend this question to > > be a springboard into a long, drawnout discussion re: The Third German Reich > > or Naziism. Respectfully, Jim Rodak -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Feb 23 23:05:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA21083 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:54:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000223224825.018942b0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:48:25 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head (Escape to Witch Mountain) In-Reply-To: <6e.101ac49.25e5ed40@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Thanks for the info. I will try to locate the movie. Considering how unconventional HPB was, how such an unconventional person was chosen to launch modern theosophical movement, nothing surprises me any more. The Powers be use every tool available to further the interests of Humanity no matter what the conventional wisdom is. Years ago, one of my neighbors would not let his son watch BB. So he used to come to my home and watch it -- we not being very open minded. So here comes the surprising find. I asked one of my sons to see if he recalls seeing this episode and the reply was negative. thanks again.. mkr At 09:11 PM 02/23/2000 EST, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com writes: >> I just read about a video of the BB episodes and was surprised that one was >> on Blavatsky. Let me see if I can get hold of the video. > >I'm not surprised, because Blavatsky also shows up in movies like "Escape to >Witch Mountain." > >old movie, eddie albert et al >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303315607/recommendations > >There are theosophical points of view in both movies, but they are especially >strong in the remake. I don't remember her name being mentioned in the old >Eddie Albert movie, but in the remake, they specifically refer to Madame >Blavatsky's Crystal Ball. > >Each time I read the book, or see either movie, I see things that I love. >(Wish I could quote it verbatim). The children are told that we all have the >light with us, but some of us have forgotten. > >I highly recommend the movie. The old movie is out on video > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303315607/recommendations > >The new movie shows up fairly frequently on Disney Channel. I've recorded it >at least twice, but I don't know where the tapes are, but even if I did, I >wouldn't mail it out, sorry. Maybe I can dig it up and bring it to the April >meeting in Sulphur Springs. > >John > >Click here: http://www.myfamily >.com/photocontest > Scroll down, put in "maze" for the title and click SEARCH. > Look for "Be My Amazing Valentine." Click on its picture. > Download it, Print it, and give it to your Amazing Valentine. > It is an actual maze. There is exactly one solution. > And, of course, BE SURE TO VOTE FOR IT. You can vote > for other people too, but vote for me first, please. > >Also: Click here: I won the first HREF="http://members.aol.com/themazeman/MSOPressRelease.html">Mind Sports >Olympiad Programming Tournament (press release). The next contest is >February 13 to 20 at www.MS >OWorld.com/programming.html. First prize is $500 and a chance to compete >for more at their convention. > >John > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 00:05:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA25954 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:56:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <005801bf7e8b$0ce5bd80$97b31d3f@computer> From: "ljaquez" To: Subject: Theos-World re:beavis and butthead Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:50:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I have seen the particular episode titled "mdme.blavatsky" as i am a big fan of the show,and the only reference to her is only in the title.The episode ia about B&B going to a fortune teller to see if theyre finally going to "score".I think it was just Mike Judge's(creator of the show)sense of humor at work,he probably titled it that way because he is or was a student of theosophy and this was his way of acknowledging that,in a lighthearted way,but nowere in the episode is there a mention of theosophy or an attempt to smear its teaching,I dont know what the big deal is just watch the episode and get over it, there are more important issues to be discussed.....L.Jaquez -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 09:28:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id JAA06509 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:16:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000224091028.00abf8c0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:10:28 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re:beavis and butthead In-Reply-To: <005801bf7e8b$0ce5bd80$97b31d3f@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Glad for the feeback. Having not seen it before your feedback, like anyone interested in HPB/Theosophy, I was curious what the contents of the show were. TV/Entertainment is a very powerful medium and if anyone is using it to present theosophical ideas, it would be novel and highly welcome. mkr At 12:50 AM 02/24/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I have seen the particular episode titled "mdme.blavatsky" as i am a big fan of the show,and the only reference to her is only in the title.The episode ia about B&B going to a fortune teller to see if theyre finally going to "score".I think it was just Mike Judge's(creator of the show)sense of humor at work,he probably titled it that way because he is or was a student of theosophy and this was his way of acknowledging that,in a lighthearted way,but nowere in the episode is there a mention of theosophy or an attempt to smear its teaching,I dont know what the big deal is just watch the episode and get over it, there are more important issues to be discussed.....L.Jaquez -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 11:47:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id LAA27669 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:45:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01bf7eee$bafbe5d0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:43:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi, Blavatsky is referred to prominently in the book A LIST OF SEVEN by Mark Frost, co-aurthor with David Lynch of the T.V. series TWIN PEAKS. It is very entertaining fiction and she is portrayed rather nicely, me thinks. I was so hoping that they would make a movie from his novel. I have often thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. Eugene -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 12:34:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA01520 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:22:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:16:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf7ef3$419b1b20$220e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000223185440.01a76b90@mail.eden.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Doss: I know nothing of this. Is there anything more? Dal Dallas dalval@nwc.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of ramadoss@eden.com Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 4:55 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head I just read about a video of the BB episodes and was surprised that one was on Blavatsky. Let me see if I can get hold of the video. On the positive side, the younger generations are being introduced to Blavatsky and that may be good. At a later stage in life when HPB is mentioned it may kindle their interest. This is a very positive development in the current stage when most of those interested in Theosophy are older people with very few of current younger generation. May be you see the unseen hand of the powers be in action in most unexpected ways. mkr At 10:16 AM 02/24/2000 +1030, you wrote: >I am a big B&B fan but have not seen what you are referring to. Do you know >a particluar episode title? > >The creator Mike Judge also makes other films and works - One of them if i >recall rightly , Office Space, I think, actually gelled with my philosophy a >lot so it is possible he is in the know.... > >namaste > > >nos > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com >> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of ramadoss@eden.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:41 AM >> To: theos-l@list.vnet.net >> Subject: Theos-World Beavis and Butt-Head >> >> >> I just found out that the TV show has a segment titled Blavatsky. Has >> anyone seen the episode? >> >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 13:02:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id NAA06324 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:00:50 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: <49.15d93bb.25e6d867@aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:54:31 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 28 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 2/24/00 11:42:40 AM Central Standard Time, ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: << I have often thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. >> Well, she'd have to eat an AWFUL lot of tofu first!!! Chuck the Heretic -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 14:08:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA16980 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:01:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <005a01bf7f01$c086fc70$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:00:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Shirley'd do it for the part, wouldn't she? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Drpsionic@aol.com To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky >In a message dated 2/24/00 11:42:40 AM Central Standard Time, >ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: > ><< I have often > thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. >> > >Well, she'd have to eat an AWFUL lot of tofu first!!! > >Chuck the Heretic > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 17:57:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA17624 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:40:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B5C0D1.BD7F59C6@schoolemail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:37:53 -0800 From: Estrella X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Of problems, me, Liesel and other things References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9C7C44E6E2587E693BE18E9A" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com --------------9C7C44E6E2587E693BE18E9A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, i was absent for a long time, just came to report me, heheheehe. I just saw with nostalgic taught the notice of the death of Liesel F. Deutsch in the High country Theosophist, i wanted to say to these both lists, that i remember the wise Liesel with a bit of nostalgia, and a good feeling inside, knowing that i got to knew her, and that she even wroted to me and i am very happy, not because Liesel's death, (Because i will not see her in a few good time) but, just for the fact that i got to knew a person of flesh and blood, even that it is in the way "virtual" but still i got to meet somebody of yourselves. Next time i hope to meet, in real life, pepole like Dallas, Ramadoss, Alan, Chuck,Martin and Thoa and Eldon and a lot a lot of pepole that i got to know here, pepole that is not imaginary, pepole of flesh and blood that circulates somewhere in this vast world. By the way, i try to think with Liesel's departure, that is the same as with my grandparents death: I try to think like if they went to Florida, Miami in the golden swing era, like they used to do and love....and that they are still there, on vacations, for 80 years or some timing like that.80 years of vacations....not bad, huh? Thinking in other things, i am very happy and in peace and energy with all the good taughts you all sended me, your advises, everything worked perfectly, you don't know how good your letters meant to me in rough times. It seems like my problems almost vanished. i got tired and tried to think like the taoist way of thinking that the problem it will resolve by itself not doing nothing, so i have been doing nothing! hahahahahahahahahhaha :-) Well, thank you very much dear friends, for all your good help. i really needed it. And it worked, too!! Right now i am believing again in the power of the mind and tought.It is like the matrix, man, gals, you have to believe the unbelievable. it does work. Even if i get depressed sometimes. it does work. thanks. Thanks really Your friend, of all Estrella :-p --------------9C7C44E6E2587E693BE18E9A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
        Well, i was absent for a long time, just came to report me, heheheehe.
I just saw with nostalgic taught the notice of the death of Liesel F. Deutsch in the High country Theosophist, i wanted to say to these both lists, that i remember the wise Liesel with a bit of nostalgia, and a good feeling inside, knowing that i got to knew her, and that she even wroted to me and i am very happy, not because Liesel's death, (Because i will not see her in a few good time) but, just for the fact that i got to knew a person of flesh and blood, even that it is in the way "virtual" but still i got to meet somebody of yourselves.
    Next time i hope to meet, in real life, pepole like Dallas, Ramadoss, Alan, Chuck,Martin and Thoa and Eldon and a lot a lot of pepole that i got to know here, pepole that is not imaginary, pepole of flesh and blood that circulates somewhere in this vast world.
    By the way, i try to think with Liesel's departure, that is the same as with my grandparents death: I try to think like if they went to Florida, Miami in the golden swing era, like they used to do and love....and that they are still there, on vacations, for 80 years or some timing like that.80 years of vacations....not bad, huh?
    Thinking in other things, i am very happy and in peace and energy with all the good taughts you all sended me, your advises, everything worked perfectly, you don't know how good your letters meant to me in rough times. It seems like my problems almost vanished. i got tired and tried to think like the taoist way of thinking that the problem it will resolve by itself not doing nothing, so i have been doing nothing! hahahahahahahahahhaha :-)
    Well, thank you very much dear friends, for all your good help. i really needed it.
And it worked, too!! Right now i am believing again in the power of the mind and tought.It is like the matrix, man, gals, you have to believe the unbelievable. it does work. Even if i get depressed sometimes. it does work. thanks.
Thanks really
Your friend, of all

                    Estrella     :-p
 
 
  --------------9C7C44E6E2587E693BE18E9A-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 18:47:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA23642 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:30:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000224182434.00aadea0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:24:34 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky In-Reply-To: <000e01bf7eee$bafbe5d0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Interesting to know about List of Seven and Twin Peaks. may be one of these days someone will produce a movie. mkr At 09:43 AM 02/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Blavatsky is referred to prominently in the book A LIST OF SEVEN by Mark >Frost, co-aurthor with David Lynch of the T.V. series TWIN PEAKS. It is >very entertaining fiction and she is portrayed rather nicely, me thinks. I >was so hoping that they would make a movie from his novel. I have often >thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. > >Eugene > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 18:52:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA24078 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:35:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: ramadoss@eden.com Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000224182859.0210ed00@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:28:59 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Of problems, me, Liesel and other things In-Reply-To: <38B5C0D1.BD7F59C6@schoolemail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Nice to hear from you. If you are ever in Texas, you can visit with me. I live in San Antonio -- a city HPB visited and stayed for a couple of months in 1850 -- Let me know. You are welcome to stay at my home -- this invitation is open to *anyone* visiting San Antonio -- mkr At 03:37 PM 02/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Well, i was absent for a long time, just came to report me, heheheehe. I just saw with nostalgic taught the notice of the death of Liesel F. Deutsch in the High country Theosophist, i wanted to say to these both lists, that i remember the wise Liesel with a bit of nostalgia, and a good feeling inside, knowing that i got to knew her, and that she even wroted to me and i am very happy, not because Liesel's death, (Because i will not see her in a few good time) but, just for the fact that i got to knew a person of flesh and blood, even that it is in the way "virtual" but still i got to meet somebody of yourselves. Next time i hope to meet, in real life, pepole like Dallas, Ramadoss, Alan, Chuck,Martin and Thoa and Eldon and a lot a lot of pepole that i got to know here, pepole that is not imaginary, pepole of flesh and blood that circulates somewhere in this vast world. By the way, i try to think with Liesel's departure, that is the same as with my grandparents death: I try to think like if they went to Florida, Miami in the golden swing era, like they used to do and love....and that they are still there, on vacations, for 80 years or some timing like that.80 years of vacations....not bad, huh? Thinking in other things, i am very happy and in peace and energy with all the good taughts you all sended me, your advises, everything worked perfectly, you don't know how good your letters meant to me in rough times. It seems like my problems almost vanished. i got tired and tried to think like the taoist way of thinking that the problem it will resolve by itself not doing nothing, so i have been doing nothing! ffff,0000,0000hahahahahahahahahhaha3333,ffff,3333 :3333,6666,ffff-) Well, thank you very much dear friends, for all your good help. i really needed it. And it worked, too!! Right now i am believing again in the power of the mind and tought.It is like the matrix, man, gals, you have to believe the unbelievable. it does work. Even if i get depressed sometimes. it does work. thanks. Thanks really Your friend, of all 3333,cccc,ffff -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Feb 24 22:27:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA11790 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:19:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:45:17 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <49.15d93bb.25e6d867@aol.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I always liked the young lass from Misery - Kathy Bates...Methinks down pat.. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Drpsionic@aol.com > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 5:25 AM > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky > > > In a message dated 2/24/00 11:42:40 AM Central Standard Time, > ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: > > << I have often > thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. >> > > Well, she'd have to eat an AWFUL lot of tofu first!!! > > Chuck the Heretic > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Feb 25 18:48:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA06154 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:42:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Dennis Kier" Subject: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND MASTERS Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:33:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf7ff1$1c01f740$b50e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001501bf7f38$d9bcfa00$9a9fb2d1@denniski> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 25 Dear Dennis: As I read your letter and response I see that I did not make my point clear. You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to use as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB describes it clearly. It is unimportant that you may interpret things you study differently from myself. That is always true among students. But trying to make statements fit one's prejudgments is not part of the learning process. as I see it. No one can afford to study Theosophy selectively and according to ones predetermined aims, interests or prejudices. Or that study will prove only a mirror of the personal bias one has imposed. al that has been excluded will be seen by others, who will conclude that the and statements made by that individual are limited by his selected and personal "filter." What is important is THEOSOPHY as a body of knowledge that we can test independently. Who or how it was recorded does not matter in the least. It is a record of IDEAS and a STATEMENT OF HISTORICAL FACTS. How else can the "golden grain" be sifted from the shaft of useless errors? It is totally unimportant as to "who" did what in providing the teachings of Theosophy. They are provided for us to study, check and verify on our own. Obviously while we may appreciate the statements that HPB or the Masters made, who they were, and how they made them available has no bearing on the accuracy or the value of the information. Olcott and others who were contemporary of HPB and watched her at work made a record of what they were interested in and saw. But they apparently were not able in all cases to go BELOW the events and ask themselves why things were done as they were. They got "stuck" on the wonder and the phenomenal side. They did not seem to value the profundity of the philosophy. I would say we have an advantage in the fact that we can survey and study the whole of the philosophy. We are not bound by the methods used (we were not there). Hence we only have the record of how others saw them , and from that, how they drew their conclusions -- correct or incorrect. If we use that as our "peg" on interest, we can get hung up on that. The question is how do we move on, how do we universalize our outlook? Others do not have our particular interest, and what is it that they may see that we are missing? if we go at study that way, we can widen our view using theirs as a partial approach to consider. We also have to make sure that their view is reasonable and impersonal. Neither you nor I, nor anyone, is able to review independently (unless we are Adepts and can read the Akasic record) the early days and methods of communicating, nor is it at all important as to who or why HPB (or the Masters) did all she (or They) did. She did it. They did it. It is for our benefit if we wish to profit from it. But it was written for the world at large. In this you will see that we build our own "barriers." We seem to find a roost at the perches of our interest. Those may obscure the whole picture. We have to consider how to get around them. Let us remember that theosophical truths are facts in Nature and can be verified independently by all who are interested. Hence only those things that are universal, impartial, eternal, reasonable, intuitional will be found to the "true at all times, to all people, and in all places or areas." We are the ones who can profit (from the recorded Message of Theosophy) if we will, in what was taught. BUT WE HAVE TO PROVE TO OURSELVES THAT IT IS VALUABLE. No one can advance their view or stand as an "authority" for anyone. To seek for the "who" is unimportant and is only curiosity. If any one of us thinks that they know everything or can stand in judgment over HPB and Masters, then they are making a most serious blunder. They can only be checked and verified by a thorough understanding of the fundamentals that Theosophy offers. If we do not have hose, then we are not serious. We have merely discovered a new toy to amuse us for a while. Can I assume that you really wish to probe deeper ? May I offer as a concept: As a fundamental idea we are told that the CONSCIOUSNESS that we employ is unitary (for us, as we have each our own). It derives directly from the ATMA the Higher Self, which is One with all ATMAN. It animates successively Buddhi (wisdom) and Manas (the thinking principle). Manas offers a link of intelligence of the powers of the Higher Mind to that Monadic intelligence that has developed through the lower kingdoms until it has developed a "vehicle of matter" -- which is sensitive enough to receive and mirror an aspect of BUDDHI-MANAS the Higher Mind. This mirror is, in each of us, that which has been called the Lower Mind or Kama-Manas. But, note that along with that is also the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS which pierces up and down the 7 planes of being and serves to uphold the memory of the experiences on each of those planes." ( Gita Notes pp. 98-100) The level of Kama-Manas is one such level. (see SD I 157-8, 181) Therefore that which survives death is the immortal aspect of ourselves. that grows constantly while the many changing personalities come and go, fade or leave a favorable impress on the eternal EGO. Turning now to some other remarks you make: Dallas dalval@nwc.net -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Kier Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:09 PM To: W. Dallas TenBroeck Subject: Re: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND METHODS OF THE MASTERS JEROME wrote: > Dear Dennis > Just a footnote on the way the S.D. was assembled. HPB handed Archibald and Bertram the .... < SNIP > Yes, it was interesting. > >>> "W. Dallas TenBroeck" WROTE: > Feb 23 2000 > > Dear Dennis: > > To secure the kind of information you have (below) is very interesting. > > However let me observe that the Masters, apparently as a group ,work > together as a true brotherhood. HPB is one of their number (they say this > in various places, even calling her "our brother," and "He." I found that interesting also. But-Were they refering to HPB, or the adept who was running the "shell" at the time? I am inclined to think the latter. ---------------------------------- DTB THAT IS TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT. THEOSOPHY AS A PHILOSOPHY IS WHAT WE ARE STUDYING. They do not > equate the physical form named H. P. Blavatsky with "HPB" the indwelling > INTELLIGENCE that used that form. This distinction ought to be carefully > noted. HPB herself often drew attention to this fact. When HPB stepped > aside to let one of the Masters use the "form" she remained consciousness > and aware of the process, she writes and said.) Olcott in "Old Diary > Leaves" notes the changes that occurred when HPB lent her personality > voluntarily to another "Master" to use and write through. She also explains > this elsewhere in letters to her family that were reprinted in PATH > magazine, Vol. 9, and 10, where Mr. Judge reprinted them along with his > comments. I find those letters interesting, but I interpret them differently than you do. ---------------------------------- DTB THAT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. MAKE SURE YOU DO UNDERSTAND THEM. ----------------------------------- > But that which has always struck me as important was not how and who may > have been responsible for sections of the work, but, rather, the nature of > the moral worth of the information offered. I agree with that, but I am still interested in which Adept offered which subject. We often find that a particular personality thinks with thought patterns that vibrate more in sync with our own thought patterns, making it easier to understand what they are saying - at least I do. I am not down-playing the importance of the work, but I find getting to know individuals interesting also. In this case, it was not possible 20 years ago, or so, but with computers and copy machines, and modern technology, it is. Studying this may not strike you as having any value to yourself, and that is Your path. I do find it of value to me. It is not generally good, or bad, but just something that appeals to me. > May I offer an "aside" observation? As I have thought of it, this seems to > be the way in which it operates: Everything in Theosophy leads us to the > concept of a practical brotherhood -- not only of mankind, but of everything > (without any exceptions) in the whole of NATURE (we are all interactive > 'force-fields' that embody a moral position. This could be expressed by the > idea that ours is a "moral universe." The Laws of Karma represent this > fact. They are illustrative of the intense and ever-present power of > MOTIVE. The reason why mankind chooses their direction of living, impacts > Nature in all its departments, but primarily in our own "Skandhas;" and, as > a result, those become the "carriers" of our personal karma and return to > us, eventually, under cyclic law to provide us with the direct experience of > what we may have imposed on others either lawfully or unlawfully. We call > the resulting circumstances "good" or "bad" karma. Yes, Krishnamurti, in his teachings amplified on these concepts, and in reading the biographies of him, it is evident that he had someone "overshadowing" him during the time of the lectures, just as was announced by Leadbetter and Besant, when they found him. That was pretty much his whole message to the world. > The whole of the MAHATMA LETTERS and HPB's LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT carry > information which was written for the instruction of chelas. Much of it was > entirely private and therefore it was often asked that sections if not the > entire letter NOT BE PUBLISHED. I noticed that. But then, HPB said that some subjects were not allowed to be taught when ISIS was written, but by the writing of SD, she was allowed to amplify and correct those exact subjects, and said that by then, it was permitted to be taught. --------------------------------------- DTB QUITE TRUE BUT THE DECISION WAS MADE BY THE ADEPTS AS CAN BE SEEN BY THE INTERVENING ARTICLES AND LETTERS THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED. THE HISTORY OF THAT IS ALL THERE. -------------------------------------- In the passing of time between the writing of the Letters to Sinnett, and the printing of the book of Letters, so much had been put public, that most of it didn't matter so much, and even then, so much of it is only significant to people like you and me. Because of that, I think, it is worthwhile for it to have been published. There is now SO MUCH esoteric material in books through out the world, that it takes experience in it to recognise the Gems in the chaff. -------------------------------------------- DTB PERFECTLY SURE THAT THERE ARE GEMS IN THE CHAFF. BUT THAT DOES NOT LIFT THE ONUS OF OUR OBSERVING THE PRIVACY CONCERNING THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT OTHERS HAVE VIOLATED THE SECRECY OF. I SAID THIS IS A MORAL UNIVERSE. WE ARE ALL BEING TESTED AS TO THE MANNER OF OUR EMPLOYMENT OF THE SELECTION OF THAT WHICH WE USE AS A BASIS FOR STUDY AND DISCUSSION. IT IS OUR DISCRETION THAT IS UNDER TEST BY "NATURE." ------------------------------------------ > Trevor Barker however, considered this, but did not give weight to that > request -- and in spite of such requests published them. So there is a But Trevor, all by himself, could not do much. The decision to publish was a group effort, not the work of a single individual. ------------------------------------------------- DTB WHAT IS THE SOURCE FOR THIS STATEMENT. WHAT I HAVE FROM THOSE WHO KNEW AND TALKED WITH TREVOR BARKER PRIOR TO THAT PUBLISHING IS QUITE DIFFERENT. CAN YOU LET ME HAVE THE SOURCE OF YOUR STATEMENT "that it was a group decision?" DID T B SAY SO? ---------------------------------------------------------- > But those aspects are not for our entertainment or further speculation. > You can now see why it was of importance that such matters ought to never > have been publicized. There is too much room for speculation and > misunderstanding. and, in any case, it was information that only very few > could make sense of. Of course such matters ought to have been kept private > for that reason only. And it is for that reason that I disagree. There are only so many teachers available, and so many attaining that level. While it is said that when the pupil is ready, a teacher will appear, now with the masses getting ready to graduate, the teacher can be the pupil's intuition, and a book. But, you have to have the knowledge and intuition to see if the teaching contained in the book fits in with what you need. Sometimes we have books around for years, and all of a sudden, it all clicks and we see that it Now has great value for us. DTB IN MY ESTEEM ONE IS ARROGATING TO ONES' SELF THE POSITION OF EQUALITY WITH HPB AND THE MASTERS' LEVEL OF LEARNING AND RESPONSIBILITY. BUT IS THAT REASONABLE? HAVE WE QUALIFIED OURSELVES? DO WE PRESENT THEOSOPHY OR ALLOW OUR PRESENTATION TO REFLECT OUR SPECULATIONS? WHEN YOU OR I ARE ABLE TO WRITE A S D, OR EVEN A KEY TO THEOSOPHY, THEN SUCH A STATEMENT WILL BE TRUE. CAN YOU CONSIDER FOR YOURSELF: WHAT IS THE BASIS OF YOUR "DISAGREEMENT ?" ------------------------------------------------ > Yes, in the 15 vol. set of HPB writings (BLAVATSKY -- COLLECTED WRITINGS, > published by the Adyar TPH, some of the material offered there is direct > from unpublished MSS of HPB's -- one might surmise that she did not publish > those as found there, because they deserved to be revised and completed. In > looking at those, and making use of the ideas they contain, is like dealing > with "stolen or smuggled goods." We have to be cautious and balance what is > said there with our own acquired knowledge of both the Head and the Heart > doctrines -- as outlined in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE. We have to use our > "intuition." > I agree. Dennis THANK YOU AND BEST WISHES, Dallas -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 14:03:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA26048 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:02:02 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: CoNewsNet2@aol.com Message-ID: <45.138bea5.25e989c3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:55:47 EST Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 2/24/0 13:57:46, you wrote: <> Not everything that comes to our mind needs to be emailed : ) Femia -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 19:20:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA22870 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:12:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <2.138ce5a.25e9d276@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:05:58 EST Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com That was an accident. Sometimes the garbage goes along with the gems when I forward a whole digest for one or two good articles. Chuck is an egomaniacal asshole who only writes if he has a snotty joke. :-) In a message dated 2/26/00 2:58:32 PM, CoNewsNet2@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 2/24/0 13:57:46, you wrote: > >< >Dear Chuck the Heretic>> >Not everything that comes to our mind needs to be emailed : ) > >Femia -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 19:53:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA26420 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:47:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B89E3F.2810@wworld.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:47:11 -0800 From: scott holloman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky References: <45.138bea5.25e989c3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com CoNewsNet2@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/24/0 13:57:46, you wrote: > > < > Dear Chuck the Heretic>> > Not everything that comes to our mind needs to be emailed : ) > > Femia > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. Hello CoNews; I recognize ya from buddhist chat room!So good ta see a familiar name!Welcome!I'am on more than one server ;I'm silly! Sincerely uni -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 20:10:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA28571 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:06:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38B8A2A4.718E@wworld.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:05:56 -0800 From: scott holloman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Of problems, me, Liesel and other things References: <3.0.3.32.20000224182859.0210ed00@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Nice to hear from you. If you are ever in Texas, you can visit with > me. I live in San Antonio -- a city HPB visited and stayed for a > couple of months in 1850 -- Let me know. You are welcome to stay at my > home -- this invitation is open to *anyone* visiting San Antonio -- > > mkr > > At 03:37 PM 02/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: > >>>> > > Well, i was absent for a long time, just came to report me, > heheheehe. > I just saw with nostalgic taught the notice of the death of > Liesel F. Deutsch in the High country Theosophist, i wanted > to say to these both lists, that i remember the wise Liesel > with a bit of nostalgia, and a good feeling inside, knowing > that i got to knew her, and that she even wroted to me and i > am very happy, not because Liesel's death, (Because i will > not see her in a few good time) but, just for the fact that > i got to knew a person of flesh and blood, even that it is > in the way "virtual" but still i got to meet somebody of > yourselves. > Next time i hope to meet, in real life, pepole like Dallas, > Ramadoss, Alan, Chuck,Martin and Thoa and Eldon and a lot a > lot of pepole that i got to know here, pepole that is not > imaginary, pepole of flesh and blood that circulates > somewhere in this vast world. > By the way, i try to think with Liesel's departure, that is > the same as with my grandparents death: I try to think like > if they went to Florida, Miami in the golden swing era, like > they used to do and love....and that they are still there, > on vacations, for 80 years or some timing like that.80 years > of vacations....not bad, huh? > Thinking in other things, i am very happy and in peace and > energy with all the good taughts you all sended me, your > advises, everything worked perfectly, you don't know how > good your letters meant to me in rough times. It seems like > my problems almost vanished. i got tired and tried to think > like the taoist way of thinking that the problem it will > resolve by itself not doing nothing, so i have been doing > nothing! hahahahahahahahahhaha:-) > Well, thank you very much dear friends, for all your good > help. i really needed it. > And it worked, too!! Right now i am believing again in the > power of the mind and tought.It is like the matrix, man, > gals, you have to believe the unbelievable. it does work. > Even if i get depressed sometimes. it does work. thanks. > Thanks really > Your friend, of all > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. You are so kind;I lived in Midland-Odessa for a while and loved it except for the water of corse:)The climate is so wonderful ta me! Sincerely Scott -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 20:35:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA31470 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:35:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: THEMAZEMAN@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:28:55 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 67 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com CoNewsNet wrote: > > < > Not everything that comes to our mind needs to be emailed : ) I was thinking that she'd have to eat a lot of AWFUL tofu first. John -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Feb 26 21:19:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA00700 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:55:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <20000227024942.21567.qmail@web210.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:49:42 -0800 (PST) From: clint mccray Subject: Theos-World South Park Virus To: ". ." , james bean , little cutie , Shantina Gandall , Fabiola Gonzalez , Ilan Kuppusamy , "Alec C. Marken" , juliette mouiren , nathan , all is one , nessa_creature@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Beware a new virus prettyworm.zip, represented as an attachment called Pretty Park and sometimes looking like a South Park symbol. It may even be sent you by a friend. Do not open the attachment, and delete the e-mail asap. This is a virus that once opened digs itself into your e-mail files and can automatically send out the same e-mail to everyone on your Address list. It does not disable any of your files, but causes your computer to slow down, and I mean lag (five minute white screen just on start-up). My source on this warning is my company's Information Systems department, in an All Employee e-mail yesterday they gave us exactly the same advice and information as you see above. Clint Costa Mesa, Ca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 27 06:53:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA05462 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 06:32:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf811d$948a75c0$f8de603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000224182434.00aadea0@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:30:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Has anybody read the book? How does HPB turn out there? Any new slanders? Frank > >Blavatsky is referred to prominently in the book A LIST OF SEVEN by Mark > >Frost, co-aurthor with David Lynch of the T.V. series TWIN PEAKS. It is > >very entertaining fiction and she is portrayed rather nicely, me thinks. I > >was so hoping that they would make a movie from his novel. I have often > >thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. > > > >Eugene -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 27 06:59:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA05458 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 06:32:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000401bf811d$9530c7e0$f8de603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World swastika, counterclockwise, theosophical seal Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:38:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Peter, the swastika on p. 99 SD II is in the same direction as that of HPB's personell seal. But what is wrong with that? Frank > Hi Eugene, > > Fortunately there is a copy of the Secret Doctrine on line at: > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm > > As to the different directions of the swastika - the one on page 99 in SD II is the opposite direction to the one on the cover of the same SD, even in the original edition. I wonder if it depends on whether we are on the outside looking in, or the inside looking out? I suppose we could say with these two actual symbols that one is on the 'outside' while the other (p99) is on the inside, but that is just speculation on my part. > > best wishes > ...Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 27 17:42:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA29254 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:34:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <005101bf817a$e89e39a0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:32:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com HPB is treated very well in the book and is featured in the first part. I was so pleased to see her mentioned in a favorable light. And. Yes. I've read it and enjoyed it. She is also mentioned prominently in the book Madame Blavatsky's Baboon seemingly written by a sceptic, and she seems to be discounted when written directly about, but when one finishes the book one is left with the impression that the author is ambivalent and sort of won over and a bit more open minded towards the whole field of the paranormal and also, indirectly, more open towards HPB. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: Frank Reitemeyer To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:36 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky >Has anybody read the book? >How does HPB turn out there? >Any new slanders? >Frank > >> >Blavatsky is referred to prominently in the book A LIST OF SEVEN by Mark >> >Frost, co-aurthor with David Lynch of the T.V. series TWIN PEAKS. It >is >> >very entertaining fiction and she is portrayed rather nicely, me thinks. >I >> >was so hoping that they would make a movie from his novel. I have often >> >thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. >> > >> >Eugene > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Feb 27 17:57:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA30025 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:43:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01bf817c$2ca8efe0$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:41:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I predicted several years in advance that Mike Nickels(sp?) would do the movie for Catch-22. I'd like to see David Lynch or Terry Gilliam do such a movie. Let's visualize . . . . EC -----Original Message----- From: ramadoss@eden.com To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky >Interesting to know about List of Seven and Twin Peaks. may be one of these >days someone will produce a movie. > >mkr > > >At 09:43 AM 02/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Blavatsky is referred to prominently in the book A LIST OF SEVEN by Mark >>Frost, co-aurthor with David Lynch of the T.V. series TWIN PEAKS. It is >>very entertaining fiction and she is portrayed rather nicely, me thinks. I >>was so hoping that they would make a movie from his novel. I have often >>thought someone like Shirley MacLane could play her beautifully. >> >>Eugene >> >> >>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. >> >> > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Feb 28 18:39:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA05438 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:18:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000401bf8249$8f951980$7c16f4d8@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <000101bf7ff1$1c01f740$b50e97cf@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND MASTERS Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:42:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck To: Dennis Kier Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:33 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND MASTERS > As I read your letter and response I see that I did not make my > point clear. Oh, I believe you did. It is just that I have some ideas of my own, and as you say, we have to think about things on our own. I understand what it is that you believe is true. It is just that _I_ do not believe many of the same things. I think that many of your opinions have a solid foundation. But, I have been reasoning, and reading a few years too. So, I have come to some different conclusions. I appreciate reading your material. You make some interesting points. But, I do not believe that I should take your opinions as gospel, any more than you are willing to take mine as such. > You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a > "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to use > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one > incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB describes > it clearly. It is unimportant that you may interpret things you > study differently from myself. That is always true among > students. I could quote chapter & verse and all that, but it is better organized in the book HP BLAVATSKY, Tibet & Tulku, by Geoffrey A Barborka. It has the quotes already done. In addition, the facts presented fit in with many observations that I have made previously, not associated with Theosophy. This is one reason that I like to study the setting, and the background of the material, in addition to the Official Text as well. The book is in print, and may be available in some library near you. If I were you, I wouldn't buy it, since it presents many facts that do not fit your preconcieved notions. > Olcott and others who were contemporary of HPB and watched her at > work made a record of what they were interested in and saw. But > they apparently were not able in all cases to go BELOW the events > and ask themselves why things were done as they were. They got > "stuck" on the wonder and the phenomenal side. They did not seem > to value the profundity of the philosophy. I take it from this that you have never read much of Olcott's material. > Neither you nor I, nor anyone, is able to review independently > (unless we are Adepts So, I take it from that that you are not able to read the records either. Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how many different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65. There is a gap of a few lifetimes as the student progresses through the Adept state into the Master (graduate Adept) state. I would guess that you are about 1/2 way through it all. Perhaps, if you meditate regularly, and can exibit some of the siddihs, you might be a bit further along. But, with 7, or 65, there are enough different paths to accomodate both our approaches to the matter, and have a few other paths left over for others. > We are the ones who can profit (from the recorded Message of > Theosophy) if we will, in what was taught. BUT WE HAVE TO PROVE > TO OURSELVES THAT IT IS VALUABLE. No one can advance their Yes, that is what I am doing. > Can I assume that you really wish to probe deeper ? I do all the time. > May I offer as a concept: As a fundamental idea we are told that > the CONSCIOUSNESS that we employ is unitary (for us, as we have > each our own). It derives directly from the ATMA the Higher > Self, which is One with all ATMAN. It animates successively > Buddhi (wisdom) and Manas (the thinking principle). Manas offers > a link of intelligence of the powers of the Higher Mind to that > Monadic intelligence that has developed through the lower > kingdoms until it has developed a "vehicle of matter" -- which is > sensitive enough to receive and mirror an aspect of BUDDHI-MANAS > the Higher Mind. Yep! Your style of thinking is a bit more verbose than mine, but it is interesting to read. > DTB THAT IS TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT. THEOSOPHY AS A >PHILOSOPHY IS WHAT WE ARE STUDYING. > Again, your point of view vs mine. You are correct, but only for yourself. > I find those letters interesting, but I interpret them > differently than you > do. > ---------------------------------- > > DTB THAT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. MAKE SURE YOU DO UNDERSTAND THEM. > ----------------------------------- > > Trevor Barker however, considered this, but did not give weight > to that > > request -- and in spite of such requests published them. So > there is a > > > But Trevor, all by himself, could not do much. The decision to > publish was a > group effort, not the work of a single individual. > ------------------------------------------------- > > DTB WHAT IS THE SOURCE FOR THIS STATEMENT. WHAT I HAVE FROM > THOSE WHO KNEW AND TALKED WITH TREVOR BARKER PRIOR TO THAT > PUBLISHING IS QUITE DIFFERENT. > > CAN YOU LET ME HAVE THE SOURCE OF YOUR STATEMENT "that it was a > group decision?" > DID T B SAY SO? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Gee!, I would think that this is just a common sence observation. I have worked in print shops. Do you think Trevor mixed the ink for the presses?, or loaded the paper on them, or designed the cover, or selected the type. Ink, paper, typesetter, binding - all cost a lot of money. Trevor can come up with all sorts of books, but without the cooperation of the publisher, and financing, and distribution, it is not going to go very far. Book publishing is a cooperative effort, of a lot of people, and a lot of different skills and trades. The "source" of my statement is my past experience. -which should be obvious. > > > But those aspects are not for our entertainment or further > speculation. > > You can now see why it was of importance that such matters > ought to never > > have been publicized. There is too much room for speculation > and > > misunderstanding. and, in any case, it was information that > only very > few > could make sense of. Of course such matters ought to have > been kept > private > for that reason only. Again, we dissagree. I am for freedom of the press, and information. It will make sense to the people who need it, and make absolutely no sense to the rest of the people. I do not agree with the Government bureaucrat who would withhold all information from the people, and I think that in Occult matters, things should be out in the open as well. Your approach and mine is different. > DTB IN MY ESTEEM ONE IS ARROGATING TO ONES' SELF THE POSITION OF > EQUALITY WITH HPB AND THE MASTERS' LEVEL OF LEARNING AND > RESPONSIBILITY. BUT IS THAT REASONABLE? HAVE WE QUALIFIED > OURSELVES? DO WE PRESENT THEOSOPHY OR ALLOW OUR PRESENTATION TO > REFLECT OUR SPECULATIONS? Karma. The Masters say that our actions are our responsibility. In the letters to Sinnett, they say that if they tell someone to do something, and the action turns out to be beneficial, then the good karma accrues to them. -or the bad also does. That is why they let the student to grow by doing and learning. We cannot sit by forever waiting for the Master to put it all out for us on a silver platter. We have to do it for ourselves. That is how we advance on the path. Dennis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 29 08:36:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA12056 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:24:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:16:16 -0800 Message-ID: <001101bf82bf$8f55ea00$0e0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000401bf8249$8f951980$7c16f4d8@denniski> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 28th 2000 Dear Dennis: Many thanks for your answer to which I will make some notes below. First: I am NOT in the business of "convincing" anyone. I do however present some of the conclusions that I have arrived at and offer them for consideration and response. Consequently you are entirely free -- and I am glad that you see that. But when I meet with something that I have not yet seen, I do want to verify its source. Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net ======================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:42 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND MASTERS ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck To: Dennis Kier Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:33 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D HPB WORK AND MASTERS > As I read your letter and response I see that I did not make my > point clear. Oh, I believe you did. It is just that I have some ideas of my own, and as you say, we have to think about things on our own. I understand what it is that you believe is true. It is just that _I_ do not believe many of the same things. I think that many of your opinions have a solid foundation. But, I have been reasoning, and reading a few years too. So, I have come to some different conclusions. I appreciate reading your material. You make some interesting points. But, I do not believe that I should take your opinions as gospel, any more than you are willing to take mine as such. DTB I REPEAT: I am emphatically NOT in the business of convincing anyone. I do however present some of the conclusions that I have arrived at and offer them for consideration and response. Consequently you are entirely free -- and I am glad that you see that. ----------------------------- > You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a > "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to use > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one > incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB describes > it clearly. It is unimportant that you may interpret things you > study differently from myself. That is always true among > students. I could quote chapter & verse and all that, but it is better organized in the book HP BLAVATSKY, Tibet & Tulku, by Geoffrey A Barborka. It has the quotes already done. In addition, the facts presented fit in with many observations that I have made previously, not associated with Theosophy. This is one reason that I like to study the setting, and the background of the material, in addition to the Official Text as well. The book is in print, and may be available in some library near you. If I were you, I wouldn't buy it, since it presents many facts that do not fit your preconcieved notions. DTB I HAVE HAD IT FOR MANY YEARS SINCE PUBLICATION. As far as I can determine it has added very little to that which Theosophy and its literature already cover. What is clear is that HPB was responsible for bringing the matter of the transfer of consciousness of an INDIVIDUAL (when Karma necessitated) to the attention of those who were going to study its tenets. I have no idea of what you consider to be the "official text." My sole consideration in all matters is whether that which is being discussed is reasonable and in line with fundamental principles. I am looking for basic facts that anyone can use and trust. It cannot be a matter of either opinion or sentiment, since both are variables. If we are looking at the same facts, our conclusions ought to show a close coincidence. If one takes information at second hand, the possibility of additional errors increases. I try to avoid that. Thus, I seek to avoid that fine line between fact and fiction that blurs and slurs understanding. --------------------------------------- > Olcott and others who were contemporary of HPB and watched her at > work made a record of what they were interested in and saw. But > they apparently were not able in all cases to go BELOW the events > and ask themselves why things were done as they were. They got > "stuck" on the wonder and the phenomenal side. They did not seem > to value the profundity of the philosophy. I take it from this that you have never read much of Olcott's material. DTB My acquaintance with his views is taken from his contributions to the pages of THEOSOPHIST, as I have all the early volumes at hand, and have read through them a few times. Also OLD DIARY LEAVES has been read and compared with the documents of Theosophical History that seem in some cases to show a more accurate delineation of facts. Olcott developed many opinions of his own (who does not ?) and some of those seem to me to be ungenerous in regard to his changing views of his "teacher" HPB. After her death (as far as I can see and read) he made some accusations that he had not dared utter to her while she was alive. He also showed his animosity to Mr. Judge in more ways than one and was instrumental in promoting the "Judge Case" beyond reasonable limits, especially as it had been terminated in July 1894, and BROTHERHOOD was the prime Object of the Theosophical Society. Another source of consideration : HPB's letters could be mentioned in regard to these and other matters addressed to Mr. Sinnett. Add to that the letter (August 22 1888) written to him (Olcott) directly by the Master K. H. and delivered on board the S. S. SHANNON (reprinted in LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM, 1st Series, pp 50 -56). --------------------------------------------- So, I take it from that that you are not able to read the records either. DTB On the contrary I have dealt with those "records" almost daily for many years. Part of my work has been to verify that the statements made in the book THE THEOSPHICAL MOVEMENT -- 1875-1950 (Cunningham Press, Los Angeles) are documentarily correct. I did this for my own satisfaction. ------------------------------------------ Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how many different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65. DTB Do you have the reference for this statement? I cannot recollect it. I would be obliged for your giving me the source for it. Where did the Master say "65 ?" Is there anything else given there in additional explanation? I would very much like to be able to see it. To myself I say: And why "65" and not "70 ?" I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters. But then I have not read everything either. ----------------------------------------------------- There is a gap of a few lifetimes as the student progresses through the Adept state into the Master (graduate Adept) state. I would guess that you are about 1/2 way through it all. Perhaps, if you meditate regularly, and can exibit some of the siddihs, you might be a bit further along. But, with 7, or 65, there are enough different paths to accomodate both our approaches to the matter, and have a few other paths left over for others. DTB I am not in the business of grading anyone or anything. That is quite insignificant if one adopts the view that we are all immortals. And if we have eternity in which to complete our program of learning and work. There is no need to hurry, but I would think that accuracy of fact is important to all. I like the idea of being about 1/2 way through, as that gives one a sense of the need for continued study and work. But I see no need of looking for, or trying to define any "finality." One might say that for any one Manvantara there is a stage that marks the "perfection" that is provided by that time period of living and working. But then there are many more Manvantaras to follow. As I read it, the SECRET DOCTRINE (SD I 617-634) states that we are all MONADS (ATMA-BUDDHI) in evolution -- so that no one is any older than any other. But if there are any "differences" it is in the degree of intelligence and awareness that any one exhibits (SD I 174-5fn) . I would say that the virtues demand of anyone humility as a pre-requisite. And I address this to myself whenever I write. The writings of Gautama the BUDDHA and the VOICE OF THE SILENCE indicate this is a primary part of the development of any self-progressing Monad. The last thing (it seems to me) that any would do, would be to make personal comparisons and estimates. ---------------------------------------- > We are the ones who can profit (from the recorded Message of > Theosophy) if we will, in what was taught. BUT WE HAVE TO PROVE > TO OURSELVES THAT IT IS VALUABLE. No one can advance their Yes, that is what I am doing. > Can I assume that you really wish to probe deeper ? I do all the time. > May I offer as a concept: As a fundamental idea we are told that > the CONSCIOUSNESS that we employ is unitary (for us, as we have > each our own). It derives directly from the ATMA the Higher > Self, which is One with all ATMAN. It animates successively > Buddhi (wisdom) and Manas (the thinking principle). Manas offers > a link of intelligence of the powers of the Higher Mind to that > Monadic intelligence that has developed through the lower > kingdoms until it has developed a "vehicle of matter" -- which is > sensitive enough to receive and mirror an aspect of BUDDHI-MANAS > the Higher Mind. Yep! Your style of thinking is a bit more verbose than mine, but it is interesting to read. > DTB THAT IS TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT. THEOSOPHY AS A PHILOSOPHY IS WHAT WE ARE STUDYING. > Again, your point of view vs mine. You are correct, but only for yourself. > I find those letters interesting, but I interpret them > differently than you do. > ---------------------------------- > > DTB THAT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. MAKE SURE YOU DO UNDERSTAND THEM. > ----------------------------------- > > Trevor Barker however, considered this, but did not give weight > to that request -- and in spite of such requests published them. So > there is a > > But Trevor, all by himself, could not do much. The decision to > publish was a group effort, not the work of a single individual. > ------------------------------------------------- > > DTB WHAT IS THE SOURCE FOR THIS STATEMENT. WHAT I HAVE FROM > THOSE WHO KNEW AND TALKED WITH TREVOR BARKER PRIOR TO THAT > PUBLISHING IS QUITE DIFFERENT. > > CAN YOU LET ME HAVE THE SOURCE OF YOUR STATEMENT "that it was a > group decision?" DID T B SAY SO? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Gee!, I would think that this is just a common sence observation. I have worked in print shops. Do you think Trevor mixed the ink for the presses?, or loaded the paper on them, or designed the cover, or selected the type. Ink, paper, typesetter, binding - all cost a lot of money. Trevor can come up with all sorts of books, but without the cooperation of the publisher, and financing, and distribution, it is not going to go very far. Book publishing is a cooperative effort, of a lot of people, and a lot of different skills and trades. The "source" of my statement is my past experience. -which should be obvious. DTB Dear Dennis it so happens that I have spent most of my life in printing and publishing and have owned several presses -- so the answer you give is not direct to my question, is it ? I simply asked you for a REFERENCE: I would like to see where this was SAID or WRITTEN. It is not COMMON SENSE to me. I thought you had something that I could also look at. Did you have a reference to this "group effort" -- or did you mean the production of a book after Trevor Barker had done by himself all the writing or editing? Your statement is to me was unclear on that subject. But thank you, as I now see that there is no reference that you were quoting. It was only your way of expressing yourself. ---------------------------------------------------- > > > But those aspects are not for our entertainment or further > speculation. You can now see why it was of importance that such matters > ought to never have been publicized. There is too much room for speculation > and misunderstanding. and, in any case, it was information that > only very few could make sense of. Of course such matters ought to have > been kept private for that reason only. Again, we dissagree. I am for freedom of the press, and information. It will make sense to the people who need it, and make absolutely no sense to the rest of the people. I do not agree with the Government bureaucrat who would withhold all information from the people, and I think that in Occult matters, things should be out in the open as well. Your approach and mine is different. DTB THAT IS QUITE CLEAR. I too, want access to the facts. Occultism is actually quite explicit and usually in plain sight. People shut themselves off from understanding it by seeking to apply to what they read only their own view-point. Unless this is widened and deepened the fine points of "Occultism" are passed over -- this is as I see it. In fact I have re-read passages several times, and each time that I approach them, I find that I can see a deeper meaning there, which previously I have passed over. My guess is that each time we return, we carry with us all that we have acquired as increased depth, and that is what shows the difference. Has that not also happened to you ? --------------------------------------------------- > DTB IN MY ESTEEM ONE IS ARROGATING TO ONES' SELF THE POSITION OF > EQUALITY WITH HPB AND THE MASTERS' LEVEL OF LEARNING AND > RESPONSIBILITY. BUT IS THAT REASONABLE? HAVE WE QUALIFIED > OURSELVES? DO WE PRESENT THEOSOPHY OR ALLOW OUR PRESENTATION TO > REFLECT OUR SPECULATIONS? Karma. The Masters say that our actions are our responsibility. In the letters to Sinnett, they say that if they tell someone to do something, and the action turns out to be beneficial, then the good karma accrues to them. -or the bad also does. That is why they let the student to grow by doing and learning. We cannot sit by forever waiting for the Master to put it all out for us on a silver platter. We have to do it for ourselves. That is how we advance on the path. DTB VERY TRUE Many thanks for clearing this up Best wishes, Dallas (Feb 28th 2,000) ------------------------------------------------- Dennis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 29 19:52:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA20772 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:22:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AAA-BN-BASIC" Subject: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere fiction? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:15:21 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf831b$a15c4e40$910e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 29th Dear friend "------" : Enjoy your fantasy ! Sorry "reptoids" is out. "Chohan" is a Tibetan word. Defined in Theos. Glos p. 83 as "Chief of the Dhyanis," or "Celestial Lights" -- which in English would be translated "Archangels." In other words a "human-monad" which has many, many Manvantaras ago graduated out of the purely "human stage" into that of one of the chief assistants to Nature. Perhaps the GREAT INTELLIGENCE has for duty the administration of a whole world. In that aspect it would oversee the work and duties of its agents, the Adepts and Mahatmas. You will find much discussion on this subject in Vol. 1. of the SD. A key (metaphysically) to understanding this statement is that: 1. the Monad never dies. 2. Law rules everything. 3. Nature as a whole is EVERYTHING. 4. The WHOLE is made up of great oceans and hosts of intelligences, each at its own level of development. 5. Cooperation and interaction are the primary methods of coexistence. 6. All Intelligences from small to great are expressions of the ONE ORIGINAL WHOLE -- which we cannot describe. 7. Human intelligence shows a MIND in various degrees of development, from ignorance to an inclusive WISDOM that embraces every aspect of the Universe -- or KOSMOS. 8. The most advanced Intelligences serve the least and help them on their way. 9. Cooperation, altruism, service, harmlessness and self-restraint are the keys to any advance in the occult sciences. Selfishness automatically cancels any spiritual power. Only the selfish and the psychic remain. No spiritual "power" may be used for one's self-benefit in any way. The Chohan (s) would have for duty some superior and world encompassing responsibilities in which we have no special part, and it would only be curiosity on our part to inquire into them or their position. It like asking in a University: "Who is the President? and, What does he do? Who are the Deans? And what are their duties in Council ?" As a freshman such information would be useless to us, usually. If we deserve to know about these "governors" we will be informed. At the moment we are students and are focused on a program of learning. That is our prime duty. anything else is information that cannot be well used. In Nature, when something becomes our responsibility, we will be advised. Nothing is left to chance or will happen without due preparation. The whole Universe is embodied CONSCIOUSNESS. Every part of it, every MONAD is attuned to the rest and to IT. We need to first study the nature of our CONSCIOUSNESS and determine what it is, how it operates, and what we ought to be leaning. Once that is done we can proceed with care and caution. Theosophy provides the opening themes and basic principles that lead to such perception. It is in effect the HISTORY of world-wide development of mankind, and of the things he uses, and the things he sees outside of our Solar system in the Universe. It deals in facts nd not in speculations or guesses. I am using strong words and ideas, but you will find on reflection that they are basic and cover the whole ground from which we are starting together. We are all in this together -- no one is either advanced, superior or an "authority." As immoral Monads we are all the same age. A few have acquired a little more information and have the responsibility to use it well, and with discrimination for the benefit of their fellows. If you go to the second Vol. of the SD (SECRET DOCTRINE), HPB explains the progress of intelligence in the ANIMAL KINGDOM . That is the only place where you will find the saurian and reptilian forms OF ANIMALS mentioned. Those forms never held a HUMAN intelligence. At that time the Earth was in a semi-solid configuration and matter was very different from the matter we deal with now. Theosophical archaeology parallels pretty much the Scientific sequence insofar as the development of forms (found in fossils); but it covers a far greater period of time. You have to read about it when you get a copy of the SD -- it is very interesting. But first after the KEY, you might read through ISIS UNVEILED -- I think you will enjoy what it writes about. Let me observe: The KEY TO THEOSOPHY gives us a view of the work of Theosophy in our world now. It introduces us to a vocabulary that is partly drawn from ancient philosophies the Kabalists, the Greeks and Egyptians and finally the ancient Hindu Brahmins who used Sanskrit. This is because it is the most ancient of them all. In fact every religion and philosophy that we can see around us will be found to have its roots in ancient Hindu philosophy. ISIS UNVEILED. One thing: I noticed when I first read it, is that it gives substance to myths and legends of which we hear when we delve into pre-history. It also gives a very substantial history of the development of philosophy, science and religion -- how they are all inter-related. Further it speaks extensively of the hidden operations (Laws) of Nature on the ASTRAL and PSYCHIC planes and illustrates these with examples. Hidden in those, are the laws and rules of those powers, but one has to pay close attention to secure the knowledge that is available. Basically we might say that the effort of Theosophy is centered on Brotherhood. The reason for that is that it contains the basic idea of the ONE UNIVERSE -- in which we Live and of which we are a PART. We, as Units, as Intelligences become as humans, MIND-BEINGS. This capacity to exercise thought and free-will simultaneously endows us with responsibility. It is our duty to voluntarily asset Nature in her great works. But first we have to educate ourselves. Our progress is therefore determined by a self-willed choice to make ourselves WISE. Those who succeed in becoming wise, graduate from the human school. The only path to success is cooperative, and by brotherly assistance to all other beings with which we live. This is the creative aspect of Karma. The discharge of our responsibilities is called "dharma." Duty in Sanskrit. SECRET DOCTRINE Most valuable as it develops from the basis offered in ISIS. It covers the history of the development of our Kosmos and Solar system, and finally of our Earth. It shows how the cycle of reincarnation pertains to those vast structures as well as to our own INTELLIGENCE. Then in Vol. 2 it shows how mineral, plant, animal and human INTELLIGENCE gradually developed FORMS into which they worked and still work. It is the intelligence that develops the form and not the other way around. Briefly put, the whole of NATURE consists of intelligent "life-atoms." They are called MONADS. Like the Scientific concept of the "atom," the MONAD (a UNIT of spirit/matter) is a perpetual motion machine endowed (from the moment that it emerges from the generalized "Monadic Essence" with a consciousness, intelligence and awareness of its own. So the whole UNIVERSE is made up of uncountable oceans of MONADS -- all the inter-stellar spaces, "Cosmic Dust," "Dark Matter," Black-Holes," Stars, Novae, Galaxies, comets, meteors, and planets -- and each "life-atom" exhibits the qualities that identify its uniqueness and simultaneously define its work-place and duties in the WHOLE.. Each is considered to be a "life," and has associated with it, its own individual and indestructible intelligence. As time passes and the Monad goes through many experiences -- that immortal, individual intelligence grows in responsibility and duty. It never dies, but is always on the move from one place to the next, (such moves are always under the "law of affinities" -- we call it an aspect of KARMA). And, it carries with it, as in a hologram, a "memory-picture" of all its past experiences. It is also called (and especially after it graduates into the human kingdom and acquires the independence of perception that a HUMAN MIND grants to it) the Eternal Pilgrim. It is this Monad that in the early stages of its development passes out of the astral (invisible physical -- "force-fields") of mineral development, then to the plants, animals and finally becomes associated with the human form. In each "kingdom" it develops some new talent and sensitivity. Its use by humans (who are MONADS that went through this process many long aeons before it), and who, so to say, graduated into HUMAN-MONADS (in terms of intelligence), marks at every point a certain growth. In any one of these stages there is more learning and when that is achieved Nature permits it to pass on to the next stage. In effect it has attuned itself, and has become "perfect" at that level of work and interaction. Broadly it is now an intelligent Brother and also a mentor to those Monads that cluster around it. Interior to us is such a Monad . It is called the HIGHER SELF. It is Spiritual in Nature and therefore partakes of the Universal ALL. It serves each one of us as such a Mentor. From it we hear when we have an "Intuition," or when we hear the "Voice of Conscience" warning us against some action we propose. How does this happen? It is the voice from experience we have had in the past and which is recorded in the "hologram" referred to above. It warns because we have made a similar error in the past and have suffered from it. One might ask what is error? How does one know when an error is about to be committed by me? Theosophy and ancient Wisdom answer: Any time that we are selfish and desire or do something that is solely for our own benefit, and which might hurt or restrict another's freedom of action, we are violating the great Law of Karma. Karma is described as the Law of total Harmony. If we break or bend the harmony, Nature acting through Karma immediately sets to teaching us not to do that. It then bounces back at us the exact force and effort that we applied --- so that we will feel exactly how our decisions would react on us. Of course we make bad decisions and good ones every moment of our lives so that there is a trail of causes and effects that follows us around. The whole of NATURE is a great Unity but paradoxically it is also seemingly made up of all these many kinds of "parts." Our education gradually makes us aware of the delicacy and sensitivity that Nature has in regard to the rights of others. It enforces that rigidly and it is not possible, once that we have started something to cause it to stop. Theosophy does indeed speak of mitigation, atonement and restitution as being most important in abating some of the worst aspects of "bad" karma. If we recognize we have erred and are able to redress some wrong we have done, then to that extent the resulting karma is mitigated. But Theosophy says that the victims of our wrong-doing have to be directly compensate by us if possible. And that is very difficult after some time. Nature, however never forgets and if a balancing cannot be done in this life (before death). Then in a future life the balancing will have to be done. I am putting a few notes below in the body of yours -- Dallas dalval@nwc.net ======================================== -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:05 AM ====== More ideas for a novel? That reference by K.H. is to "Chohan," –singular. Are there references to "Chohan’s" –plural? Again APPARENTLY, the reptoids are of a species that have a "collective" mind. There’s a little article about the reptoids in the current issue of NEXUS magazine. Is it all just fiction? I have also come across other references to the reptoids in reports by contactees/abductees, but compared to the "grays" they seem to be keeping a low profile. I read all kinds of stuff and then wonder whether there might be some truth involved. And I had a dream that was highly unusual for me, last night: I was visiting THE Kennedy’s, looked at the garden at the back of the house, then went inside, and Rose Kennedy came over (looking old and wrinkled) and said something about the loss of so many Kennedy’s and expressed gratitude for my coming over (or something like that) and we gave each other a good hug. Then, looking around the large room (I think there was somebody with me) I noticed a chair with a seat-lid. I lifted the lid and found a number of very old looking loose pages of a book and parts of a book . . . . DTB IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ANYONE unless they are an Adept to give an idea of what the symbology of a dream may be. Each one has to be their own interpreter, and usually the methods and suggestions that are given in popular works on the subject will be found to be faulty. The reason is relatively simple. Dreams that we remember are all filtered through the "Psychic" aspect of our lower mind. It is there that they pick up and clothe themselves with ideas we have been dwelling on. So it is not the characters that are significant, but the nature of the thoughts and emotions presented for our consideration. We watch a play -- the character that motivates the words and actions is important and not the names or appearance of the actors. To try to sort out the difference between fact and our own wishful thinking as we review such portions as our memory may secure, is a most difficult process and we may also in many cases be deluding ourselves. That is what is to be avoided. There are at least 2 general levels of dreams. One is purely psychic and the other may emanate from the "spiritual nature," or our Higher Selves. The latter variety will usually offer some high ethical verity or a universal and ideal picture for our consideration. It will not be easily forgotten. The lower type of psychic dreams will alter, change and disappear after a while. One value to the fact of dreams is the proof inherent in them that we are at core ONE CONSCIOUSNESS and regardless of the plane where the experience occurs, it is that ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that records and remembers. ---------------------------------------- This was clearly a departure from the kinds of hum-drum dreams I usually have. At least I can’t say I know how you’re going to react to these last two letters! Mauri DTB AS YOU SEE YOU RECEIVE A DOSE OF PHILOSOPHY to consider Best wishes, Dallas dalval@nwc.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Feb 29 22:40:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA14753 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:07:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <006f01bf8332$85396d80$24b47ed8@computer> From: "Barrett Culmback" To: References: <000101bf831b$a15c4e40$910e97cf@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere fiction? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:56:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF82EF.156505C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF82EF.156505C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re: dreams. In "Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. = ennumerates seven (7) types of dreams. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF82EF.156505C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

re: dreams.  In = "Transactions of=20 the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. ennumerates seven (7) types of=20 dreams.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF82EF.156505C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.