From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Oct 01 08:34:35 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 1 Oct 2000 15:34:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 27569 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2000 15:34:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Oct 2000 15:34:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1601.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.201) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2000 15:34:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 1671 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Oct 2000 15:34:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20001001153434.1670.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [169.197.10.141] by web1601.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 01 Oct 2000 08:34:34 PDT Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 08:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Theosophical History website has a NEW address on the World Wide Web To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Daniel Caldwell The Theosophical History website has a NEW address on the World Wide Web: http://calstate.fullerton.edu/santucci/th The Theosophical History website is an online extension of the Theosophical History journal founded in 1985 by Leslie Price and edited since 1990 by James A. Santucci. Theosophical History is now in its 15th year. Theosophical History is the independent scholarly journal devoted to all aspects of theosophy (with and without a capital T. The TH web site is a collaborative effort of serious students of all aspects of theosophy, with an emphasis on the wave of occultism, spiritualism, New Age thought and Theosophy as it has developed during the last 150 years. The web site is intended to be a 21st-century “Notes and Queries”—a clearinghouse for information on original sources, archival material and recent work of interest alike to scholars and all serious students of these matters. Dr Santucci welcome your comments and contributions. The website is beginning to publish the full text of the back issues of Theosophical History and also original articles and research material that has not been published in the journal. Here is information on how to contact Dr. Santucci: Professor James A. Santucci. Department of Comparative Religion P.O. Box 6868 California State University Fullerton, CA 92834-6868 Phone: (714) 278-3727; Fax: (714) 693-0142 Email: jsantucci@fullerton.edu Again the NEW ADDRESS of the The Theosophical History website is: http://calstate.fullerton.edu/santucci/th ===== Daniel H. Caldwell DanielhCaldwell@yahoo.com Blavatsky Archives Online http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From joleen@wmea-world.org Sun Oct 01 12:40:27 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 1 Oct 2000 19:40:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 14127 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2000 19:40:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Oct 2000 19:40:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.5) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2000 19:40:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 39410 invoked by alias); 1 Oct 2000 19:40:26 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 39370 invoked by uid 0); 1 Oct 2000 19:40:24 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 1 Oct 2000 19:40:24 -0000 Message-ID: <000d01c02bdf$e78b47a0$0200000a@joleen> To: Subject: testing Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:43:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C02BA5.3B01B620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C02BA5.3B01B620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Was glad to receive the announcement this morning about moving to egroups. = I've been part of this list for a couple of years. It's been wonderful, inf= ormative and uplifting. And most of all, inspiring. All the best to Eldon and the rest. Joleen Du Bois ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C02BA5.3B01B620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Was glad to receive the announcement this morning a= bout=20 moving to egroups. I've been part of this list for a couple of years. It's = been=20 wonderful, informative and uplifting. And most of all, inspiring.
 
All the best to Eldon and the rest.
 
Joleen Du Bois
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C02BA5.3B01B620-- From dalval@nwc.net Mon Oct 02 11:32:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval@nwc.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 2 Oct 2000 18:32:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 17717 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2000 18:32:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Oct 2000 18:32:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2000 18:32:31 -0000 Received: from dns.nwc.net (DNS.NWC.Net [204.140.231.3]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21915 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:37:43 -0500 Received: from netway (ont3-ppp148.dial.clubnet.net [206.126.141.148]) by dns.nwc.net (8.9.3/8.9.1/FCS) with SMTP id LAA00979 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: To: Subject: RE: Theos-World theos-talk site Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:20:29 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000930184610.00a01310@theosophy.com> From: Dallas Tenbroeck OK understood -- would like to always subscribe Dal D. T. B. -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Theosophy World Editor Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 6:56 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World theos-talk site I'm looking into converting the theos-talk (and theos-talk-digest) lists to run on elists.com. You should get a notice in the next one-to-three days saying that you've been subscribed to theos-talk@elists.com. When the process is complete, I'll send out a final message to the both theos-talk@egroups.com and theos-talk@egroups.com. With the egroups version of the list, you can change your subscription option at any time, picking receiving individual messages, getting the messages in digest form, or not getting the messages (but still able to view online any messages at the egroups site). Note that the list will be setup there the same as it is presently. No subscriber is able to see who else is subscribed. The anonymous nature of your subscription will be preserved, except when you should choose to post to the list. Anyone currently getting theos-talk-digest will be initially set up in digest mode. Everyone else will get individual messages as they are posted. -- Eldon Tucker -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Oct 02 17:54:27 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 3 Oct 2000 00:54:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 3506 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2000 00:54:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Oct 2000 00:54:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2000 00:54:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: compiler@wisdomworld.org Received: from [10.1.2.42] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2000 00:54:26 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 00:54:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: 18 more articles from THEOSOPHY magazine added to WisdomWorld Message-ID: <8rbanv+ijce@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1264 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.3.34.114 From: compiler@wisdomworld.org Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 18 articles added in the past seven days were all added to the "Additional" page. On this page are both finished series and groupings of articles, as well as seven different categories of articles being worked on at all times. All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more experienced students at all levels -- including the very scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with much profound and informative Theosophical information that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be "Supplementary" reading and study material for participants of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, here on theos-talk. As a new participant here, I hope you find the material useful Compiler ------- The "Additional Categories of Articles" page: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html The "Main Page": http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- From dalval@nwc.net Tue Oct 03 14:56:41 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval@nwc.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 3 Oct 2000 21:56:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 23287 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2000 21:56:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Oct 2000 21:56:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2000 21:56:40 -0000 Received: from dns.nwc.net (DNS.NWC.Net [204.140.231.3]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03650 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:01:50 -0500 Received: from netway (ont3-ppp148.dial.clubnet.net [206.126.141.148]) by dns.nwc.net (8.9.3/8.9.1/FCS) with SMTP id OAA97225; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: The Occult Brotherhood - its three Centres - still in existence. Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:44:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: Dallas Tenbroeck As far as I know it makes no difference in theosophy whether one many be designated in some way exoterically. The whole aim of Theosophy is to study the laws of Nature and their interaction through living human and other beings such as the MONADS which are fundamental to all evolution. ] As such, then, exoteric designations have no real or continuing meaning or any significant value. To try to analyse and deal with them is purely a lower-manasic exercise in speculative futility. As far as I can see this has little continuing value. Best wishes, Dallas D. T. B. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. MacDonald [mailto:bmacdonald@accesscomm.ca] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 7:16 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: The Occult Brotherhood - its three Centres - still in existence. Peter, You write, in this long discussion of whether HPB was Buddhist or not: "HPB says she and the Adepts belong to that very 'Wisdom-Religion'. Its full Knowledge, in the safe keeping of the "Adepts of the Sanctuary", is "carefully preserved" yet mostly hidden from the world at this time. It is that 'Lake of Wisdom' referred to above. Only a fragment (cupful), whether esoteric or exoteric, is given out at any one time and in any one tradition, and that includes Buddhism." Part of the mystery of this whole matter is that this secret knowledge is within each one of us, since we have all come from the Divine Impulse, are Monads which incorporate the All and through Atma/Buddhi contain all knowledge. So the "Sanctuary" is also our inmost being which is at one with the All. Our Higher Self is an "Adept of the Sanctuary," but can let out only just as much as we can perceive at any one stage of our development. In that sense we are all drawing cups of that water of Wisdom, but different cups, depending on our capacity. Also, if we look a bit farther into the matter we can see that there are the three Brotherhoods of Adepts you speak of, but also there are the three centers of esoteric wisdom which are present in the triune nature of humanity -- that is, in the spiritual geography of the human being there is the wisdom of the Heart, of the Soul and of the Spirit: or in another sense, of Atma/Buddhi, of Manas and of the lower centers, the highest of which is the Heart which is the highest wisdom of the embodied, manifested state, which is advanced cases becomes united with the upper two. In this sense Theosophy, or the Ancient Wisdom, is represented in all religious and philosophical traditions which help to elucidate the triune nature of humanity and to preserve and at the same time reveal some more of the hidden meaning of the "Sanctuary." Or as a recent quote in BN-Study puts it: ""The doctrine of man's triune nature is as clearly defined in the Hermetic books as it is in Plato's system, or again in that of the Buddhist and Brahmanical philosophies. And this is one of the most important as well as least understood of the doctrines of Hermetic science." Isis Unveiled, vol. II, p. 362. So the mystery which we have to unravel is not whether Theosophy is located in a particular manifested religious tradition but that WE are expressions of the spiritual geography of which the Masters speak. Peace, Bruce MacD --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval@nwc.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-2334861K@lists.lyris.net From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Oct 03 18:01:55 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 4 Oct 2000 01:01:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 27536 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 01:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Oct 2000 01:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 01:01:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: eldon@theosophy.com Received: from [10.1.2.208] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2000 01:01:54 -0000 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 01:01:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: technical note on using theos-talk on egroups.com Message-ID: <8rdvi0+hb3@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2258 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 167.167.191.90 From: "Eldon Tucker" The egroups.com site provides free hosting for mailing lists. One thing they do, though, is put a few-line ad in each message that is sent out. There is an option where the list manager can pay a nominal fee and the ad's won't appear in the messages anymore. They mention that once payment is made, it can take up to two weeks for the request to be processed. Payment has been submitted for the "no ads" option for theos-talk, and we should hopefully be -- or soon be -- at a point where there won't be any ads in the messages. ---- For list members with web access, one's subscription can be managed by going to: http://www.egroups.com/group/theos-talk At this site, one can read the list archives and access other list resources. Many members of egroups have limited Web access, but still enjoy using the service via email. Messages intended to go out to the mailing list are send to: theos-talk@egrouops.com You can make selections by sending blank emails to the following addresses: theos-talk-subscribe@egroups.com << subscribe to the list theos-talk-unsubscribe@egroups.com << unsubscribe from the list theos-talk-nomail@egroups.com << put email delivery on hold theos-talk-digest@egroups.com << get email in daily digest mode theos-talk-normal@egroups.com << get email as individual emails If you have any questions for the manager of the mailing list, you can write to: theos-talk-owner@egroups.com ---- Because theos-talk subscribers are also subscribed to theos-world, and theos-world has a far larger subscription base, the egroups.com "chat room" feature is enabled on theos-world, and there's a link to take you there from the theos-talk home page. You can go directly there with: http://www.egroups.com/chat/theos-world Right now, you'll probably see no one online. But it might be interesting sometime to schedule something, as an experiment. ---- The transition from the majordomo list on imagiware.com, formerly known as theos-talk@theosophy.com, is complete. The theos-talk (and hct-l) lists have ended there. Email forwarding is in effect, so that if someone writes to the old address(es) by mistake, they'll be redirected to the new egroups.com lists. From lgregory@discover.net Tue Oct 03 21:28:04 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: lgregory@discover.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 4 Oct 2000 04:28:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 14321 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 04:28:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Oct 2000 04:28:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pacific.discover.net) (206.101.2.5) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 04:28:03 -0000 Received: from [206.101.3.196] (RiversideTS1-16.discover.net [206.101.3.196]) by pacific.discover.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA16589 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:27:59 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:25:50 -0700 Subject: Benefiting from the seeds cast by earlier theosophists To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <970591065.31835@egroups.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Linda gregory I'm really excited about the new dialogue opportunity and being able to interact with my Theosophical friends! I've been teaching Yoga for free the past year in my community and enjoying it immensely. We're having a Yoga Faire soon focusing on Mantras and the psychic anatomy of man. If it were not for the work of the early theosophists in the last century I doubt such an event would be possible today. We stand on their shoulders and benefit from the spiritual seeds cast over the past hundred years by the TS! - Art Gregory From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Oct 04 15:05:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 4 Oct 2000 22:05:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 21062 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 22:05:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Oct 2000 22:05:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1610.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.164) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 22:05:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 21701 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Oct 2000 22:05:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20001004220528.21700.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [169.197.8.163] by web1610.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 15:05:28 PDT Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blavatsky Archives---3 new items added To: theos-talk@egroups.com Cc: high_country@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Daniel Caldwell Subject: Blavatsky Archives---3 new items added at http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ I have added to the archives the following documents: (1) Why I Became A Theosophist by Katherine Hillard. [Reprinted from The Theosophical Quarterly (New York) July, 1909, pp. 59-61.] (2) Rosicrucianism in New York. by the Rev. James Henry Wiggin. [Reprinted from The Liberal Christian (New York) September 4, 1875, p. 4.] (3) Reminiscences of Original American Theosophists by R. B. Westbrook, LL.D. [Reprinted from The Religio-Philosophical Journal (Chicago, Illinois) September 14, 1889, pp. 2, 8.] Click on the "New Items" section for access to these rare articles. Daniel Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ http://blavatsky.cc/ You can always access our site by simply typing into your URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc ===== Daniel H. Caldwell DanielhCaldwell@yahoo.com Blavatsky Archives Online http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Wed Oct 04 20:40:36 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 03:40:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 21558 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 03:40:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 03:40:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cafe.maxicomm.net) (200.38.7.162) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 03:40:35 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com (t36.maxicomm.net [192.168.1.46]) by cafe.maxicomm.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16906; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:43:43 -0700 Message-ID: <39DBF976.21B320E5@schoolemail.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:45:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Young Theosophist's Mailing List" Cc: theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: little gray man....or hot alien boys?? References: <47.10f5a1f.26fa8763@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Estrella By the way, does anyone seen the american tv serie "Roswell"? Isn't the main guy hot?? I love that show!! So, thinking on the matter, Anyone here has ever tought of the posibility of life in other planets?? Is the UFO conspiracy a hoax?? do the aliens look like little gray men, or they look like us, or both?? Do the aliens accustom to brush their teeth??? And if they look like us, are they handsome???? So many questions, so little answers..... Estrella :-p~ From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Wed Oct 04 20:40:37 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 03:40:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 4799 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 03:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 03:40:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cafe.maxicomm.net) (200.38.7.162) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 03:40:36 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com (t36.maxicomm.net [192.168.1.46]) by cafe.maxicomm.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16901; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:43:41 -0700 Message-ID: <39DBF8FF.39F7A6E9@schoolemail.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:44:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: youngtheosophists@listbot.com Cc: theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: A groovy journey/time of a lifetime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Estrella Hey penpals, It's the secound time i write to this list, hehe. I am a young girl who sympatizes in these matters related to theosophy, as the ideals, toughts, "wierd occult matters" and, best of all, a way of meeting friends from all countries and beyond. Finnally!! after a lifetime of struggle, i'm about to finish my bachelor and soon I will be free. The world waits me. I have been offered the oportunity of a lifetime: going and travel to Europe. probably i will go to France, Spain, and Britain, although i would love to go to Ireland, Germany, Belgium and Holland, (I hope i can "squeeze" the cash) My main plan, i'll tell you friends, is to meet young pepole as me, with similar interests, mystic and spacey, groovy and freaky (hahahaha, just kidding.... or no, why not??) Any cool (And cute) kids are welcome, he. By the way, I'm from México. so, is more like an interchange of cultures, no?? I'm trying to find some work there, or some interesting courses there (French, cooking- cooking French!! - kung-fu, YOU NAME IT!!! ) If someone can tell me of some good schools, or scolarships, it would be super!!! I also like to read, write (I'm about to finish a novel, plus another couple of books) listen to music, draw, and have friends, specialy if they are from far and away, the exotic and far away Europe!! he Anyone that lives on the probably route i'm taking, I would love to meet. someone from a theosophical branch over there?? Do you need any help?? Hoping to meet you future friend!! Yours best, Your friend Estrella ;-) P.S. Obviously, i know spanish, he. some spanish talking pepole here? P.S.S. Anyone?? feel free to write me. From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 04 21:28:53 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 04:28:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 32120 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 04:28:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 04:28:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.3) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 04:28:53 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.24.) id a.26.b93a0d6 (4233) for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <26.b93a0d6.270d5d80@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:28:48 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World little gray man....or hot alien boys?? To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 102 From: Drpsionic@aol.com In a message dated 10/4/00 10:43:46 PM Central Daylight Time, lloltlit@schoolemail.com writes: << And if they look like us, are they handsome???? >> the ones that look like me aren't nearly as handsome. Chuck the Heretic From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 05 08:23:11 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 15:23:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 23090 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 15:23:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 15:23:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 15:23:10 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA05074 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA05067 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001101c02ee0$9f23a800$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <39DBF8FF.39F7A6E9@schoolemail.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World A groovy journey/time of a lifetime Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:26:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Estella, Wow! I love your letter. You seem very spirited and seem to have a bit of the rascal in you. Great! I'm very happy you have such opportunities to travel and meet other people. Please be aware of The Scientific and Medical Network.(SMN) They are at SciMedNetwork@ compuserve.com and they have a webpage as http://www.cis.plym.ac.uk/SciMedNet/home.htm (Also check out the group I'm most familiar with THE SOCIETY OF SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION. Their web page is www.ScientificExploration.org It meets once a year in the U.S. and once a year in Europe) May the Force be with you. This group(SMN) of academic people interested in the cutting edge of philosophy, science and medicine write wonderful articles and have many fun and informative meetings throughout Europe. It would be a great opportunity to meet intelligent and scientific people open to the truth, no matter how weird! You could meet them and their undoubted groovy children and then the old hippies and the Freaklinks generation can form a team and chill a bit together, dig? You and your friends would be welcome at my place if you were to get to visit the Los Angeles area. My daughter is seventeen and I need someone to help translate! There is a big generation gap, can you believe it, as cool as I am! She was in a spanish immersion program throughout all her schooling up until the ninth grade. We are both pleased with the ever growing Latino-California culture here in the north. I'm pleased to have heard from you. Right on! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Estrella" To: Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Theos-World A groovy journey/time of a lifetime > Hey penpals, It's the secound time i write to this list, hehe. > > I am a young girl who sympatizes in these matters related to theosophy, > as the ideals, toughts, "wierd occult matters" and, best of all, a way > of meeting friends from all countries and beyond. > > Finnally!! after a lifetime of struggle, i'm about to finish my bachelor > and soon I will be free. The world waits me. > > I have been offered the oportunity of a lifetime: going and travel to > Europe. probably i will go to France, Spain, and Britain, although i > would love to go to Ireland, Germany, Belgium and Holland, (I hope i can > "squeeze" the cash) > > My main plan, i'll tell you friends, is to meet young pepole as me, with > similar interests, mystic and spacey, groovy and freaky (hahahaha, just > kidding.... or no, why not??) > > Any cool (And cute) kids are welcome, he. > > By the way, I'm from México. so, is more like an interchange of > cultures, no?? I'm trying to find some work there, or some interesting > courses there (French, cooking- cooking French!! - kung-fu, YOU NAME > IT!!! ) If someone can tell me of some good schools, or scolarships, it > would be super!!! > > I also like to read, write (I'm about to finish a novel, plus another > couple of books) listen to music, draw, and have friends, specialy if > they are from far and away, the exotic and far away Europe!! he > > Anyone that lives on the probably route i'm taking, I would love to > meet. someone from a theosophical branch over there?? Do you need any > help?? > > Hoping to meet you future friend!! > > Yours best, > > Your friend > > Estrella ;-) > > > P.S. Obviously, i know spanish, he. some spanish talking pepole here? > P.S.S. Anyone?? feel free to write me. > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 05 08:33:36 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 15:33:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 24287 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 15:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 15:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 15:33:35 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA07075 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA07069 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001b01c02ee2$13f42d70$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <47.10f5a1f.26fa8763@aol.com> <39DBF976.21B320E5@schoolemail.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World little gray man....or hot alien boys?? Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:36:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Estella, You have just got to check out The Society for Scientific Exploration's webpage. See precious e-mail to you. The society has alot of cute guys. Who knows some of them might be aliens! We have a young scientist's program run by Brenda Dunne from Princeton. But you might have to be "de-goofied" a bit before you will quality to take your place amongst the very serious scientists as they study the possibilities of turning our computers on and off using only our minds! The de-goofy proceedure doesn't hurt much, they say. You have to look at U.S. Internal Revenue Tax Audits for several months. That'll sober you up a bit. It's worth it. You'll do better science. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Estrella" To: "Young Theosophist's Mailing List" Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:45 PM Subject: Theos-World little gray man....or hot alien boys?? > > By the way, does anyone seen the american tv serie "Roswell"? Isn't the > main guy hot?? I love that show!! > > So, thinking on the matter, Anyone here has ever tought of the > posibility of life in other planets?? Is the UFO conspiracy a hoax?? do > the aliens look like little gray men, or they look like us, or both?? > Do the aliens accustom to brush their teeth??? And if they look like > us, are they handsome???? > > So many questions, so little answers..... > > Estrella :-p~ > > > > > From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Oct 05 16:27:30 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 23:27:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 8344 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 23:27:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 23:27:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 23:27:29 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (pool0293.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.233.38]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA22742 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000301c02f1f$a1a7e340$26e9b3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <8rdvi0+hb3@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World technical note on using theos-talk on egroups.com Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:05:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: Eldon Tucker To: Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 6:01 PM Subject: Theos-World technical note on using theos-talk on egroups.com > The egroups.com site provides free hosting for mailing lists. > One thing they do, though, is put a few-line ad in each message > that is sent out. There is an option where the list manager > can pay a nominal fee and the ad's won't appear in the messages > anymore. They mention that once payment is made, it can take > up to two weeks for the request to be processed. Payment has > been submitted for the "no ads" option for theos-talk, and we > should hopefully be -- or soon be -- at a point where there > won't be any ads in the messages. > I am on another of the egroups that has those adds. They are usually at the tail end of the messages, and are easy to ignore. I would say that any payment is a waste. Those adds are easy to ignore, or to delete when you are replying to a message. Dennis Kier From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Oct 05 16:32:48 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 5 Oct 2000 23:32:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 11159 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 23:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Oct 2000 23:32:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO escape.com) (198.6.71.10) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 23:32:47 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (03-104.022.popsite.net [64.24.45.104]) by escape.com (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27636 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39DD1017.5A308072@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:34:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World technical note on using theos-talk on egroups.com References: <8rdvi0+hb3@eGroups.com> <000301c02f1f$a1a7e340$26e9b3d1@u7k5a4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky The payment is $5/month, I believe. This means that, in order for everybody to help pay, we would be paying more in postage than we would have to donate per year. Bart Lidofsky Dennis Kier wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eldon Tucker > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 6:01 PM > Subject: Theos-World technical note on using theos-talk on egroups.com > > > The egroups.com site provides free hosting for mailing lists. > > One thing they do, though, is put a few-line ad in each message > > that is sent out. There is an option where the list manager > > can pay a nominal fee and the ad's won't appear in the messages > > anymore. They mention that once payment is made, it can take > > up to two weeks for the request to be processed. Payment has > > been submitted for the "no ads" option for theos-talk, and we > > should hopefully be -- or soon be -- at a point where there > > won't be any ads in the messages. > > > > I am on another of the egroups that has those adds. They are usually > at the tail end of the messages, and are easy to ignore. I would say > that any payment is a waste. Those adds are easy to ignore, or to > delete when you are replying to a message. > > Dennis Kier From lgregory@discover.net Thu Oct 05 21:00:46 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: lgregory@discover.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 04:00:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 18035 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 04:00:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 04:00:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pacific.discover.net) (206.101.2.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 04:00:45 -0000 Received: from [206.101.3.144] (RiversideTS2-12.discover.net [206.101.3.144]) by pacific.discover.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29139 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:00:43 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:59:19 -0700 Subject: Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <970770463.1584@egroups.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: Linda gregory > From: Estrella > Subject: little gray man....or hot alien boys?? > > > By the way, does anyone seen the american tv serie "Roswell"? Isn't the > main guy hot?? I love that show!! > > So, thinking on the matter, Anyone here has ever tought of the > posibility of life in other planets?? Is the UFO conspiracy a hoax?? do > the aliens look like little gray men, or they look like us, or both?? > Do the aliens accustom to brush their teeth??? And if they look like > us, are they handsome???? > > So many questions, so little answers..... > > Estrella :-p~ > I found a couple of interesting points about this issue of UFOs and theosophy... During the thirties Nicholas Roerich and his expedition were traveling in and around Tibet when they sighted a UFO... a flying disk (can't recall the words he used) but it was long before such sightings became popular in America anyway...the Tibetans in their party said they were near Shamballa and the UFO was a sign of that... In my reading translations of the pillars of Asoka I also found a reference to sightings of celestial cars and fire balls of light and that these sightings were indications that nonviolence was now being practised in Asoka's realm! We also know of celestail cars as well as celestial weapons in the great epics of India. As far as life on other worlds, theosophical literature generally supports it as do the cosmological views of the Pythagoreans and other representatives of the ancient wisdom teachings! - Art From MorganArts@aol.com Thu Oct 05 22:35:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: MorganArts@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 05:35:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 17628 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 05:35:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 05:35:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 05:35:42 -0000 Received: from MorganArts@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.f5.3573dab (4462) for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:35:29 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 From: MorganArts@aol.com Dear Art, What a fascinating post you sent! Can you say where Nicholas Roerich mentioned the sighting? I have a great deal of respect for Nicholas Roerich and would love to know more about his beliefs in UFOs. Also, can you talk more on the Pillars of Asoka? Thanks so much! Gratefully, Kate P.S. You have a wonderful name! From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 06 01:36:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 08:36:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 24443 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 08:36:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 08:36:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmgaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.134) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 08:36:03 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id EAA08675 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 04:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 04:35:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World A groovy journey/time of a lifetime Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <200010060435_MC2-B5EE-F262@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Dear Estrella and Gene and All --=20 I'm from L..A. and recently transplanted to Europe -- but alas not on Estrella's itinerary. However being outside of Rome, I would welcome any contact with theosophical 'types' here. It's a slow go searching on my own -- although I have found one or two kindred souls...however distantly located. Keep me in mind for other information about European contacts, will you -- and regards from Lake Bracciano, one hour northwest of Rome.=20=20 Kathleen Arc Hebald From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 06 02:10:18 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 09:10:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 20022 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 09:10:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 09:10:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphmgaae.compuserve.com) (149.174.177.154) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 09:10:18 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by sphmgaae.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id FAA03709 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 05:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 05:09:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <200010060510_MC2-B5EE-F429@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc I too would love to hear more on Nicolas Roerich. My teacher who has passed now first introduced me to both the Roerich's work back in the '70's. From then, they have been especially close to my heart. I have had the Banner of Peace up in my home for many years and would love to hear more of either of them. Regards, Kathleen Arc Hebald newly transplanted in Italy from L.A. From teos9@aol.com Fri Oct 06 03:29:45 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 10:29:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 12950 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 10:29:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 10:29:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.3) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 10:29:44 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.ba.bd22585 (7065) for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:29:37 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 118 From: teos9@aol.com In a message dated 10/06/00 12:02:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lgregory@discover.net writes: << During the thirties Nicholas Roerich and his expedition were traveling in and around Tibet when they sighted a UFO... a flying disk (can't recall the words he used) but it was long before such sightings became popular in America anyway. >> Hello Art, Could you please provide the reference where you found this bit of information regarding Nicholas Roerich's UFO sighting. Thanks Louis From adelasie@thegrid.net Fri Oct 06 11:14:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@thegrid.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 18:14:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 17597 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 18:14:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 18:14:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail016.mail.onemain.com) (63.208.208.71) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 18:14:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 3760 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 18:14:29 -0000 Received: from 209-162-44-117.thegrid.net (HELO user) ([209.162.44.117]) (envelope-sender ) by mail016.mail.onemain.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 6 Oct 2000 18:14:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:18:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) From: "adelasie" Dear Kate, A friend who is a serious and long time student of "Living Ethics" or "Agni Yoga" told me the following, which relates to your question. Nikolas Roerich saw UFO's which were in the area of their expedition. Shambala has its own flying sources and Helena Reorich traveled in some of them while in Shambala. She and Nikolas Roerich were there...INSIDE..They spent some time in the MainArea. I imagine this information comes from the diaries of Helena and Nicholas Roerich, which may not be translated into English. At least I have never seen them. There is a very interesting book published recently by White Mountain Educaton Association in Prescott, Arizona, and distributed by the Roerich Museum in NYC called, "At the Treshold of the New World: Dreams, Visions and Letters of Helena Roerich." I am mostly familiar with the Roerichs and their work through accounts by friends and from the amazing collection of the paintings of N. Roerich, some of which I have been able to see. These two people contributed a very large body of teachings of ancient wisdom to the Russian people and are held in very high esteem by many. Adelasie On 6 Oct 00, at 1:35, MorganArts@aol.com wrote: Dear Art,  What a fascinating post you sent! Can you say where Nicholas Roerich  mentioned the sighting? I have a great deal of respect for Nicholas Roerich  and would love to know more about his beliefs in UFOs. Also, can you talk  more on the Pillars of Asoka?  Thanks so much!  Gratefully, Kate  P.S. You have a wonderful name! From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 06 11:54:14 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 18:54:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 25856 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 18:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 18:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphmgaab.compuserve.com) (149.174.177.151) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 18:54:13 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by sphmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id OAA09712 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:53:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <200010061453_MC2-B5FE-165F@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Hello -- Thank you for the info on White Mountain. I was privileged to meet many of those members and in fact have the latest book on Helena Roerich. It's very gratifying to be able to connect with others who value the inestimable work and sacrifice of the Roerichs. With love, Kat From nick.weeks@att.net Fri Oct 06 12:07:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 6 Oct 2000 19:07:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 6677 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 19:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Oct 2000 19:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net) (204.127.131.51) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 19:07:28 -0000 Received: from pavilion ([12.72.41.95]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with SMTP id <20001006190727.NQQP5657.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@pavilion> for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: <001801c02fc9$719695c0$5f29480c@pavilion> To: "theos talk" Subject: UFOs in Altai Himalaya Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:12:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02F8E.C4452060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-eGroups-From: "Nick Weeks" From: "Nick Weeks" ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02F8E.C4452060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I do not have the book, but somewhere in Roerich's Altai Himalaya is the r= eference you are looking for. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02F8E.C4452060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
 
I do not have the book, but somewhere in=20 Roerich's Altai Himalaya  is the reference you are looking=20 for.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C02F8E.C4452060-- From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 06 17:16:42 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 00:16:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1028 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 00:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 00:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO escape.com) (198.6.71.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 00:16:42 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (06-050.022.popsite.net [64.24.46.50]) by escape.com (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA21353 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39DE6BE2.E396F6B@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:18:42 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky Linda gregory wrote: > I found a couple of interesting points about this issue of UFOs and > theosophy... During the thirties Nicholas Roerich and his expedition were > traveling in and around Tibet when they sighted a UFO... a flying disk > (can't recall the words he used) but it was long before such sightings > became popular in America anyway...the Tibetans in their party said they > were near Shamballa and the UFO was a sign of that... That was no UFO, that was Henry Wallace throwing boomerangs. Bart From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 06 19:49:42 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 02:49:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 5624 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 02:49:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 02:49:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1905.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.54) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 02:49:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 26618 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Oct 2000 02:49:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20001007024942.26617.qmail@web1905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.101.3.228] by web1905.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 19:49:42 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arthur Gregory I was gladdened that there is interest in this topic of "sightings" of UFOs and such and here attach a copy of my entry on another theosophy e community. I will follow up with further information on the Roerich sighting as some of you requested! The edicts referred to were inscribed on pillars and set up throughout the Asokan kingdom. About a month ago I was musing over some of the edicts of King Asoka of the third century B.C. and came across this remardkable edict that relates to our conversation rather well. I don't know what else could better confirm historically what is here written but it is evidence that heavenly cars, bodies of fire, etc. were regarded as auspicious in the days of King Asoka! The translation is courtesy of the Theravada Text Archive: "The sighting of heavenly cars, auspicious elephants, bodies of fire and other divine sightings has not happened for many hundreds of years. But now because Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi promotes restraint in the killing and harming of living beings, proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders, such sightings have increased."   ===== Nonviolence, truthfulness, non-stealing, continence, non-greed, devotion to and service of the elders, austerity and knowledge-these are the auspicious pure flowers. We offer these flowers to the supreme soul by cultivating these good qualities. Offering of these flowers is pure worship. - Acharya Haribhadra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 06 19:59:47 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 02:59:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 28218 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 02:59:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 02:59:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1905.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.54) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 02:59:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 27218 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Oct 2000 02:59:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20001007025947.27217.qmail@web1905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.101.3.228] by web1905.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 19:59:47 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "The Sign of Shambhalla!" To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arthur Gregory "A sunny, unclouded morning- the blue sky is brilliant. Over our camp flies a hugh, dark vulture. We and our Mongols watch it. Suddenly one of the Buryat lamas points into the blue sky: "What is it? A white balloon? An aircraft?" "We notice something shiny, flying very high, from the northeast to the south. We bring three pairs of powerful field glasses from the tents and watch the hugh spheroid body shining against the sun, clearly visible against the blue sky and moving very fast. Afterwards we see that it changes direction sharply from south to southwest and disappears behind the snow-peaked Humboldt chain. The whole camp follows the unusual apparition, and the lamas whisper: "The Sign of Shambhala!" -From "Heart of Asia, memoirs from the Himalayas" by Nicholas Roerich, the bottom of page 123. This book was first published in 1929. ===== Nonviolence, truthfulness, non-stealing, continence, non-greed, devotion to and service of the elders, austerity and knowledge-these are the auspicious pure flowers. We offer these flowers to the supreme soul by cultivating these good qualities. Offering of these flowers is pure worship. - Acharya Haribhadra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 06 20:10:36 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 03:10:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 14114 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 03:10:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 03:10:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1903.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.52) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 03:10:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 3603 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Oct 2000 03:10:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20001007031035.3602.qmail@web1903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.101.3.228] by web1903.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:10:35 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quotes from Henry Wallace: To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arthur Gregory "I've always believed that if you envision something that hasn't been, that can be, and bring it into being, that is a tremendously worthwhile thing to do." "Our utopias are the blueprints of our future civilization, and as such, airy structures though they are, they really play a bigger part in the progress of man than our more material structures of brick and steel. the habit of building utopias shows to a degree whether our race is made up of dull-spirited bipeds or whether it is made up of men who want to enjoy the fill savoring of existence that comes only when they feel themselves working with the forces of nature to remake the world nearer to their heart's desire." "What we approach is not a new continent but a new state of heart and mind resulting in new standards of accomplishment. We must invent, build and put to work new social machinery. This machinery will carry out the Sermon on the Mount as well as the present social machinery carries out and intensifies the law of the jungle." — New Frontiers 1934   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Red-Baiting: "If I fail to cry out that I am anti-Communist, it is not because I am friendly to Communism, but because at this time of growing intolerance I refuse to join even the outer circle of that band of men who stir the steaming cauldron of hate and fear." — May 19, 1948 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ===== Nonviolence, truthfulness, non-stealing, continence, non-greed, devotion to and service of the elders, austerity and knowledge-these are the auspicious pure flowers. We offer these flowers to the supreme soul by cultivating these good qualities. Offering of these flowers is pure worship. - Acharya Haribhadra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Fri Oct 06 20:54:30 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 03:54:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 2953 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 03:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 03:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cafe.maxicomm.net) (200.38.7.162) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 03:54:29 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com ([192.168.1.66]) by cafe.maxicomm.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA31052; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:57:11 -0700 Message-ID: <39DD2D9D.B475930@schoolemail.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:40:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , Theos talk Subject: The pollution at where?? Kursk?/Questions about Russia References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Estrella Hello again to all, just finished to read a whole bunch of mails that i recieved since last two weeks and just now with little time to comment some of the interesting subjects dealing here: By the way, Grigor, Excelent review of Theosophical history!! A lot of details of Blavatsky's contemporaries and Blavatsky herself that i didn't knew!. Probably is because of your facility of consulting material directly from the source (Russia and neighboring nations). Perhaps later you can clarify me some questions about Blavatsky's toughts and the fascinating subject of the ocultistic inclinations of the Royal Family of the Romanovs. Thinking about that, what else can you tell us about Putin? No nice guy he looks, uh? Since i remembered you had said to me you were a scientist (Physic) wanted to ask you something that i recently read in a magazine (Don't ask me which, i don't remember) About the severe pollution problems in a faraway city of Siberia, i think. I think is close to the east coast, near the archipielag or Vladivostok. The problems of pollution there were mention in the magazine i read, were SO severe that pepole looked and aged at maturity so young, that looked as if they had 20 years more of age. kids suffered of leukemia, asthma, allergies and rashes, and an abnormally rate of cases of cancer and leukemia of every type were common in the majority of the population. I do not remember what is the material procesed in the main factory that causes the pollution, but the other main problem is that the fabric is the main source of jobs in that faraway city isolated of all, in almost tundra enviroment. The article i read was about a couple of years ago. please inform me more of the incident, do you know of the case (As i think you are working on management of toxic substances as you said) and what is right now the goverment/particulars doing on the subject. My homeland city (In the nortwestern state of Baja California) is also plagued with maquiladora factories. The major problem with maquiladoras (A type of factory that uses local hands on assembling everything else foreign, for foreign companies,and plus not giving a cent to the local comunity they are stablished-plus cases of mysery salaries and sudden abandons of the land without paying fair benefits to their former workers) besides the mysery pays to the pepole that are forced to take these jobs because no other forms of employement are created by local PAN -right wing- goverment, is the lack-few correct treatment of industrial wastes used by these factories, generaly dumped wherever they want (Sometimes just in the garbage, or to the outdoors just as that). The main problem here is that pepole is not well aware of the problem, concience has to be made on the pepole, but the goverment does not care, "scared" of the posiblility that the "oh so glorius maquiladoras" can just ran away to even poorer and less monitored countries as southeast Asia or that. Sorry to abuse of the space in this supposed to be "forum" to "spiritual" stuff, but i tought it was very important. Theosophy is not only of matters of man wanting to reach God within, but of the matters that concerns to their suffering brothers and sisters as well. "If you know something that is useful, you have to tell to your brother that does not know: the use of this knowledege by him-her, depends on their responsability and free will." As far as i know. Estrella P.S. Thinking also about the submarine sank in Russian waters, i think it was a nuclear sub, What is the goverment gonna do about it? The pressure down there can be so excesive that the torpedos can be activated or explode?? Grigor, what do you know about this? Sorry Grigor for consuming so much time. thanks all of you for your patient reading. From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Oct 07 00:19:42 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 07:19:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 26734 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 07:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 07:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.2) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 07:19:42 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.f.a3e1da7 (4231) for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 03:19:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 03:19:38 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World "The Sign of Shambhalla!" To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 102 From: Drpsionic@aol.com "And then there was the day that the Dugpa Master Ahrimanus tied one of the ends of the threads of Master KH's flying carpet to a tree branch and as Master KH flew off his carpet unraveled until there was nothing left and he dropped from the sky screaming various obscenities in Tibetan." Chuck the Heretic From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Sat Oct 07 15:43:33 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 7 Oct 2000 22:43:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21828 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2000 22:43:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2000 22:43:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail12.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.215) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2000 22:43:32 -0000 Received: from modem-64.banner-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.227.64] helo=pbncomputer) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 13i2gk-0003iw-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sat, 07 Oct 2000 23:43:31 +0100 Message-ID: <017401c030b1$08304660$40e3883e@pbncomputer> To: References: <200010060510_MC2-B5EE-F429@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:57:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Jeremy Condick" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kathleen Arc To: Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literatur= e: > I too would love to hear more on Nicolas Roerich. My teacher who has > passed now first introduced me to both the Roerich's work back in the > '70's. From then, they have been especially close to my heart. I have h= ad > the Banner of Peace up in my home for many years and would love to hear > more of either of them. Regards, Kathleen Arc Hebald newly transplanted = in > Italy from L.A. One cannot conceive of a unity of humanity by way of the brain or the kunda= lini, but the=20 radiance of the heart can bring together the most seemingly varied organism= s, even=20 across remote distances. The experiment, of the unification of hearts acro= ss distance, awaits its workers. Heart sutra 339 Helena Roerich. <<<<>>>> From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 08 07:57:43 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 14:57:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1188 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 14:57:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 14:57:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (10.1.2.2) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 14:57:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.124] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2000 14:57:42 -0000 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:57:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: India's ancient flying machines, the "vimanas": Message-ID: <8rq20t+mumt@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2447 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.201 From: arthra999@yahoo.com The celestial chariots and such have a long history in the great epics of India. I came across a fascinating article on the subject and decided to share part of it. If there is interest I will share the remainder. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Gopalakrishna's article: In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two categories: (l) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of birdlike wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious manner and are generally not made by human beings. The machines in category (l) are described mainly in medieval, secular Sanskrit works dealing with architecture, automata, military siege engines, and other mechanical contrivances. Those in category (2) are described in ancient works such as the Rg Veda, the Maha-bha-rata, the Rama-yana, and the Pura-nas. In addition, there is one book entitled Vaima-nika-sa-stra that was dictated in trance during this century and purports to be a transcription of an ancient work preserved in the akashic record. This document gives an elaborate description of vimanas of both categories. In this chapter, I will survey some of the available literature on vimanas, beginning with the texts dating from late antiquity and the medieval period. The latter material is described in some detail by V. Raghavan in an article entitled "Yantras or Mechanical Contrivances in Ancient India." I will begin by discussing the Indian lore regarding machines in general and then turn to flying machines. Machines in Ancient and Medieval India In Sanskrit, a machine is called a yantra. The word yantra is defined in the Samarangana-sutradhara of King Bhoja to be a device that "controls and directs, according to a plan, the motions of things that act each according to its own nature." There are many varieties of yantras. A simple example would be the taila-yantra, a wheel that is pulled by oxen around a circular track to crush seeds and extract their oil. Other examples are military machines of the kind described in the Arthasastra of Kautilya, written in the 3rd century B.C. These include the sarvato-bhadra, a rotating wheel that hurls stones, the sara-yantra, an arrow-throwing machine, the udghatima, a machine that demolishes walls using iron bars, and many more. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 08 08:19:05 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 15:19:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 16424 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 15:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 15:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 15:19:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.68] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2000 15:19:04 -0000 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 15:18:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: "Himalayan Lights" Message-ID: <8rq393+i65t@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 853 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.201 From: arthra999@yahoo.com >From the first vol. of the Letters of Helena Roerich is an mention of "Himalayan Lights" which I thought would be of interest to share: "In archeological respects our valley, of course, is one of the richest and most ancient, There are traces of ancient Buddhist culture.... Fiery atmospheric manifestations also could be observed here, amd so called 'Himalayan lights' may often be seen. It is most desirable to establish here a meteorlogical station to start studyiong and observing the magnetic currents..." A letter dated 13 October, 1930 I really don't gather from the notation here as well as that made by Nicolai Roerich in his description of the object sited on their expedition the kind of consuming fascination that people have with UFOs today, but rather they reflect to me a conservative and more objective interest. - Art From joleen@wmea-world.org Sun Oct 08 09:16:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 16:16:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 12899 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 16:16:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 16:16:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 16:16:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 2718 invoked by alias); 8 Oct 2000 16:16:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 2701 invoked by uid 0); 8 Oct 2000 16:16:48 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 16:16:48 -0000 Message-ID: <00a001c03143$9c755940$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <8rq20t+mumt@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World India's ancient flying machines, the "vimanas": Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:20:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" Most of the "chariots" found in the paintings of N. Roerich are symbols of the "Chalice." The Chalice is often times depicted as given to a "warrior" - one of peace. For example Buddha, it is reported was given a Chalice, which, after he died was then stored in Shamballa. History says that this particular "Chalice," when it is given to a "messenger" ... contains the teachings of the Kalachakra. Joleen Du Bois http://www.wmea-world.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Theos-World India's ancient flying machines, the "vimanas": > The celestial chariots and such have a long history in the great > epics > of India. I came across a fascinating article on the subject and > decided to share part of it. If there is interest I will share the > remainder. > > The following is an excerpt from Dr. Gopalakrishna's article: > > In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of > flying > machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two > categories: > (l) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of > birdlike > wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious > manner and > are generally not made by human beings. The machines in category (l) > are > described mainly in medieval, secular Sanskrit works dealing with > architecture, automata, military siege engines, and other mechanical > contrivances. Those in category (2) are described in ancient works > such as > the Rg Veda, the Maha-bha-rata, the Rama-yana, and the Pura-nas. In > addition, there is one book entitled Vaima-nika-sa-stra that was > dictated > in trance during this century and purports to be a transcription of an > ancient work preserved in the akashic record. This document gives an > elaborate description of vimanas of both categories. > > In this chapter, I will survey some of the available literature on > vimanas, > beginning with the texts dating from late antiquity and the medieval > period. The latter material is described in some detail by V. > Raghavan > in > an article entitled "Yantras or Mechanical Contrivances in Ancient > India." > I will begin by discussing the Indian lore regarding machines in > general > and then turn to flying machines. > > Machines in Ancient and Medieval India > > In Sanskrit, a machine is called a yantra. The word yantra is defined > in > the Samarangana-sutradhara of King Bhoja to be a device that > "controls > and > directs, according to a plan, the motions of things that act each > according > to its own nature." There are many varieties of yantras. A simple > example > would be the taila-yantra, a wheel that is pulled by oxen around a > circular > track to crush seeds and extract their oil. Other examples are > military > machines of the kind described in the Arthasastra of Kautilya, > written > in > the 3rd century B.C. These include the sarvato-bhadra, a rotating > wheel > that hurls stones, the sara-yantra, an arrow-throwing machine, the > udghatima, a machine that demolishes walls using iron bars, and many > more. > > > > kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk > > > > From shampan@zip.com.au Sun Oct 08 10:06:04 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 17:06:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 8591 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 17:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 17:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 17:06:01 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (cartman28.zip.com.au [61.8.20.156]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA06704 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 04:05:56 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E0B6EC.61739FF9@zip.com.au> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 04:03:24 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: Hello Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh Dear list, I have just joined this forum. Looking at some of the previous messages to get myself tuned in. Is there any well articulated website regarding the Roerich's that you suggest? Preferably something "not" interpreted by a third person regarding their materials. As I have no knowledge of them like the other members on the list; wish to get the first hand experience first and then read other's elaboration. Thankfully Sham From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Sun Oct 08 10:10:25 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 17:10:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 30604 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 17:10:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 17:10:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.172) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 17:10:24 -0000 Received: from modem-37.louisiana.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.69.37] helo=pbncomputer) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 13iJxu-0004NV-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 18:10:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c0314b$aa247c80$2545893e@pbncomputer> To: Subject: Gather together Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:38:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Jeremy Condick" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" After our daily labours, lat us gather to discourse about the Heart. It wi= ll lead us beyond the domains of Earth towards the subtle world, in order to bring us closer to the sphere of Fire. Forward of "Heart" Helena Roerich. <<<<>>>> From MorganArts@aol.com Sun Oct 08 11:14:47 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: MorganArts@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 18:14:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 17897 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 18:14:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 18:14:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 18:14:47 -0000 Received: from MorganArts@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.36.c5f7919 (4190) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36.c5f7919.27121392@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:14:42 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Hello To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 From: MorganArts@aol.com Dear Sham, Try which is the museum in New York which houses much of Roerich's work and writings. They are also connected to the organizations in Russia and I believe France. The closest information is to get the books that he wrote or the Agni Yoga books. Good luck! He and his wife Helena have an amazing life story and much wisdom. Kate From roberthutwohl@earthlink.net Sun Oct 08 11:23:48 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: roberthutwohl@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 18:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 8924 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 18:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 18:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 18:23:46 -0000 Received: from [158.252.149.219] (sdn-ar-004nmalbuP313.dialsprint.net [158.252.149.219]) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16852 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:23:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable From: roberthutwohl Dear Kate and all, Clearly flying saucer-like flying machines are mentioned in the Sanskrit version of India=B9s two oldest itih=E2sas or historical treatises, the R= =E2m=E2yana and the large Mah=E2bh=E2rata (such as in the Drona Parva chapter). In thos= e books, the flying machines are called =B3vim=E2nas=B2 or the mythical chari= ots of the gods (also called celestial cars) and I have found this term and its description variously throughout several chapters of these great texts. The Mah=E2bh=E2rata though is describing the great war between the earliest Ary= an or original Asian-Indian subcontinent people, whose land stretched from southern Russia southward to Ceylon (now known today as Sr=EE Lank=E2) and = parts which are now submerged as well as other parts of continents, and the remnants of the Atlanteans embodied as R=E2kshasas or the evil and demoniac= al remnants of the Atlantean (Sons of the Darkness), who ran counter to the moral, spiritual Atlanteans (Sons of the Sun). But these vehicles I think, are of this earth, not from beyond our planet, so we should not call them extra-terrestrial. They used the power of Vril-force as the main propellant= . (See Sir Edward Bulwer Lytton=B9s =B3The Coming Race.=B2) The fact that they existed at all due to the technology and advancement of = a past race is indicative of their potentiality in manifesting again when humanity is morally ready for it. The same for unleashing the Vril or etheric power as an aspect of FOHAT which John Worrell Keely discovered (by mistake) in Philadelphia around 1872 or so, where he was able to generate a force exhibiting a pressure of 2,000 pounds per square inch (and even at times 20,000 pounds/sq. in.). One question to be applied is whether the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion, Who are humanity=B9s protectors and guides, would allow the entry in to our own world-system from other systems, other units of consciousness from othe= r worlds which could possibly disrupt the evolutionary progress or balance, i.e. spriritually-mentally-physically? However, I have no doubts about the necessity of other forms of consciousness inhabiting other globes, spheres, worlds, and stars. The economy of nature and the intent of divine-intelligent Impulse from the level of divine-substance or the ONE ELEMENT would prohibit otherwise. Blavatsky=B9s The Secret Doctrine relates some one million years ago in the far north area of the Gobi sands or Shamo as protecting the Initiates of th= e Atlantean (Serpents of Wisdom) who preceded and taught the Aryan race Adepts. Encounters, karmically or otherwise would naturally ensue from its ancestor race, the fourth or Atlantean material and immoral branches. Henc= e the description of the great war as found in the Mah=E2bh=E2rata. This regi= on covered the area known as Arghya Vars[h]a which is of south Tibet to the Gobi Desert, the region of the Holy Island, which has been a refuge from th= e Atlantean, for the Immortals. In fact, the Mah=E2-Chohan has, as one of his honorary titles, that of Arghyan=E2tha. Exudences from the Astral Light, the Etheric field just beyond the physical realm are known to have happened on many occasions and I have no doubts the phenomena of vim=E2nas from the past can break through the physical envelop= e and make themselves temporarily seen and known. People have even seen sailing ships from long past make their way into the physical realm. By the means of psychometry, a form of clairvoyance and clairaudience, one may tap into this memory of nature and witness the unfolding of events long past the present. But with the aid of elementals, materialisations from the Astral Light may be presented to those without clairvoyant faculties, and without even the presence of a medium. In a gist, the original phenomena is generated as as elementary or desire-thought-form from a human being. Then, once generated, it is forever stored in the perpetual storehouse or mind of nature, to be drawn out again by the elemental agency. Hence, the stories about the Flying Dutchman, a phantom ship seen off the shores of the Cape o= f Good Hope, a m=E2y=E2 in production, and only a misty reflection of a once original ship long since gone. The drawing forth into objectivity from the Astral Light, of flying ships or UFO=B9s of long past civilisations, is a possibility. The intelligent agents involved in these manifestations may be incarnate or disincarnate. Robert H=FCtwohl > From: MorganArts@aol.com > Reply-To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:35:29 EDT > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literat= ure: >=20 > Dear Art, >=20 > What a fascinating post you sent! Can you say where Nicholas Roerich > mentioned the sighting? I have a great deal of respect for Nicholas Roer= ich > and would love to know more about his beliefs in UFOs. Also, can you tal= k > more on the Pillars of Asoka? >=20 > Thanks so much! >=20 > Gratefully, > Kate >=20 > P.S. You have a wonderful name! >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 08 12:52:50 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 19:52:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 22081 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 19:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 19:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 19:52:49 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id MAA26258 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id MAA26254 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <008201c03161$cfe0d160$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:56:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Robert, This is very interesting information and clearly written. Thankyou. The thinning of the veil between the astral and physical planes perhaps explains alot of these strange and unusual "physical" sightings. And I'm not saying they are hallucinations. And, what are hallucinations anyway? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "roberthutwohl" To: Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature > Dear Kate and all, > > Clearly flying saucer-like flying machines are mentioned in the Sanskrit > version of India¹s two oldest itihâsas or historical treatises, the Râmâyana > and the large Mahâbhârata (such as in the Drona Parva chapter). In those > books, the flying machines are called ³vimânas² or the mythical chariots of > the gods (also called celestial cars) and I have found this term and its > description variously throughout several chapters of these great texts. The > Mahâbhârata though is describing the great war between the earliest Aryan or > original Asian-Indian subcontinent people, whose land stretched from > southern Russia southward to Ceylon (now known today as Srî Lankâ) and parts > which are now submerged as well as other parts of continents, and the > remnants of the Atlanteans embodied as Râkshasas or the evil and demoniacal > remnants of the Atlantean (Sons of the Darkness), who ran counter to the > moral, spiritual Atlanteans (Sons of the Sun). But these vehicles I think, > are of this earth, not from beyond our planet, so we should not call them > extra-terrestrial. They used the power of Vril-force as the main propellant. > (See Sir Edward Bulwer Lytton¹s ³The Coming Race.²) > > The fact that they existed at all due to the technology and advancement of a > past race is indicative of their potentiality in manifesting again when > humanity is morally ready for it. The same for unleashing the Vril or > etheric power as an aspect of FOHAT which John Worrell Keely discovered (by > mistake) in Philadelphia around 1872 or so, where he was able to generate a > force exhibiting a pressure of 2,000 pounds per square inch (and even at > times 20,000 pounds/sq. in.). > > One question to be applied is whether the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion, > Who are humanity¹s protectors and guides, would allow the entry in to our > own world-system from other systems, other units of consciousness from other > worlds which could possibly disrupt the evolutionary progress or balance, > i.e. spriritually-mentally-physically? However, I have no doubts about the > necessity of other forms of consciousness inhabiting other globes, spheres, > worlds, and stars. The economy of nature and the intent of > divine-intelligent Impulse from the level of divine-substance or the ONE > ELEMENT would prohibit otherwise. > > > Blavatsky¹s The Secret Doctrine relates some one million years ago in the > far north area of the Gobi sands or Shamo as protecting the Initiates of the > Atlantean (Serpents of Wisdom) who preceded and taught the Aryan race > Adepts. Encounters, karmically or otherwise would naturally ensue from its > ancestor race, the fourth or Atlantean material and immoral branches. Hence > the description of the great war as found in the Mahâbhârata. This region > covered the area known as Arghya Vars[h]a which is of south Tibet to the > Gobi Desert, the region of the Holy Island, which has been a refuge from the > Atlantean, for the Immortals. In fact, the Mahâ-Chohan has, as one of his > honorary titles, that of Arghyanâtha. > > Exudences from the Astral Light, the Etheric field just beyond the physical > realm are known to have happened on many occasions and I have no doubts the > phenomena of vimânas from the past can break through the physical envelope > and make themselves temporarily seen and known. People have even seen > sailing ships from long past make their way into the physical realm. > > By the means of psychometry, a form of clairvoyance and clairaudience, one > may tap into this memory of nature and witness the unfolding of events long > past the present. But with the aid of elementals, materialisations from the > Astral Light may be presented to those without clairvoyant faculties, and > without even the presence of a medium. In a gist, the original phenomena is > generated as as elementary or desire-thought-form from a human being. Then, > once generated, it is forever stored in the perpetual storehouse or mind of > nature, to be drawn out again by the elemental agency. Hence, the stories > about the Flying Dutchman, a phantom ship seen off the shores of the Cape of > Good Hope, a mâyâ in production, and only a misty reflection of a once > original ship long since gone. The drawing forth into objectivity from the > Astral Light, of flying ships or UFO¹s of long past civilisations, is a > possibility. The intelligent agents involved in these manifestations may be > incarnate or disincarnate. > > Robert Hütwohl > > > > > > From: MorganArts@aol.com > > Reply-To: theos-talk@egroups.com > > Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:35:29 EDT > > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Sightings of UFOs are throughout ancient literature: > > > > Dear Art, > > > > What a fascinating post you sent! Can you say where Nicholas Roerich > > mentioned the sighting? I have a great deal of respect for Nicholas Roerich > > and would love to know more about his beliefs in UFOs. Also, can you talk > > more on the Pillars of Asoka? > > > > Thanks so much! > > > > Gratefully, > > Kate > > > > P.S. You have a wonderful name! > > > > > > > > > > > > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Oct 08 13:13:23 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 20:13:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 6247 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.c.ba59a9a (4334) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:13:18 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World "Himalayan Lights" To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 10/08/00 11:20:32 AM, arthra999@yahoo.com writes: >>From the first vol. of the Letters of Helena Roerich is an mention >of >"Himalayan Lights" which I thought would be of interest to share: > >"In archeological respects our valley, of course, is one of the >richest and most ancient, There are traces of ancient Buddhist >culture.... Fiery atmospheric manifestations also could be observed >here, amd so called 'Himalayan lights' may often be seen. It is most >desirable to establish here a meteorlogical station to start >studyiong and observing the magnetic currents..." > >A letter dated 13 October, 1930 > > >I really don't gather from the notation here as well as that made by >Nicolai Roerich in his description of the object sited on their >expedition the kind of consuming fascination that people have with >UFOs today, but rather they reflect to me a conservative and more >objective interest. They were also quite naive, since similarly described visions of lights in the sky and their strange motions have been seen many times as parts of the Aurora Borealis or "Northern Lights" that appear under certain atmospheric conditions above the arctic circle over and around the North Pole. Once, many years ago, during the late 50's, when night flying the Northern route from New York to San Francisco, I viewed lights in the northern sky for hours that appeared to be flying machines moving at phenomenal speeds in almost instantly changing directions. Some of these moving lights, which were later reported (in both Canada and the Midwest northern mountain States) as being seen from the ground and described as UFO's were obviously part of the Northern Lights or Aurora Borealis -- since it's dim, shimmering sheets were seen by us (from thirty-thousand feet altitude) glowing high in the background as being the origin of the lower light points. (Although, those sheets were not reported as being seen from the ground.) The pilot facetiously remarked that the lights the crew and passengers were seeing, which were quite unusual, but not unknown on this route, would probably give rise to hundreds of reports of flying saucers or UFO's during the next few days... And, if he didn't recognize the Aurora in the background, he might have reported them as such. In my view, the Roerich's observations had nothing to do with UFO's, and were simply the Aurora effects that might be seen at anytime along the Himalayan Mountains in Tibet, and from any high altitudes around the northern hemisphere. These effects are simply the light energies given off by the ionospheric plasma created in the Heaviside layer as it interacts with the Magnetic forces emanating from the North Pole. This effect, some possibly reflected off clouds or refracted through different atmospheric density layers could be the real nature of many UFO reports from high altitude observers around the world. LHM From joleen@wmea-world.org Sun Oct 08 14:02:46 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 8 Oct 2000 21:02:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 20808 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2000 21:02:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Oct 2000 21:02:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 21:02:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 23389 invoked by alias); 8 Oct 2000 21:02:44 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 23370 invoked by uid 0); 8 Oct 2000 21:02:44 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop5.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 8 Oct 2000 21:02:44 -0000 Message-ID: <00db01c0316b$8e4d5bb0$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <39E0B6EC.61739FF9@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World Hello Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:05:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" http://www.wmea-world.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Hello > Dear list, > > I have just joined this forum. Looking at some of the previous > messages to get myself tuned in. > > Is there any well articulated website regarding the Roerich's > that you suggest? Preferably something "not" interpreted by a > third person regarding their materials. As I have no knowledge of > them like the other members on the list; wish to get the first > hand experience first and then read other's elaboration. > > Thankfully > Sham > > > > From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Sun Oct 08 17:32:40 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 00:32:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 1563 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 00:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 00:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cafe.maxicomm.net) (200.38.7.162) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 00:32:37 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com ([192.168.1.66]) by cafe.maxicomm.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13649; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:35:04 -0700 Message-ID: <39E11375.172F11CE@schoolemail.com> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 17:38:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com, theos-l@vnet.net Subject: Nicholas Roerich References: <970851883.3093@egroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Estrella Hi!! is very interesting the subject about Nicholas Roderich. I think i read something about him. about he had find an old papyr in a monastery in the hymalayas about a young initiate of Israel called Yissa, about like 2000 years ago.... Interesting?? Can someone tell me more about books on Roerich's travels and UFO's and tibet and that?? I will like some introductory book, as i do not know well at all about. Estrella From beto401@aol.com Sun Oct 08 18:46:20 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Beto401@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 01:46:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 21569 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 01:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 01:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.7) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 01:46:19 -0000 Received: from Beto401@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.e3.abbf4a0 (3857) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:46:07 EDT Subject: hello To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 114 From: beto401@aol.com do you know how the kundaliny works? do you know how the kundaliny born? I'm interested, because I know it is the only way to be with my HOLY SPIRIT. HPB,JESUS,SAINT GERMAIN ,etc,etc,etc, they discovered the Kundaliny, but nobody explain to the people, the way to have this extraordinary and powerfull strength. Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it. Thanks. From joleen@wmea-world.org Sun Oct 08 20:19:56 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 03:19:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 20494 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 03:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 03:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 03:19:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 82731 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 2000 03:19:53 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 82533 invoked by uid 0); 9 Oct 2000 03:19:48 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 03:19:48 -0000 Message-ID: <007201c031a0$3bc1aa10$0200000a@joleen> To: , References: <970851883.3093@egroups.com> <39E11375.172F11CE@schoolemail.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Nicholas Roerich Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:23:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" Here is a list of a few books written by Nicholas Roerich: Altai-Himalaya, A Travel Diary Shambhala Heart of Asia The Invincible Here is their website addy: http://www.roerich.org Blessings... Joleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Estrella" To: ; Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 5:38 PM Subject: Theos-World Nicholas Roerich > > Hi!! is very interesting the subject about Nicholas Roderich. I think i read > something about him. about he had find an old papyr in a monastery in the > hymalayas about a young initiate of Israel called Yissa, about like 2000 years > ago.... > Interesting?? > > Can someone tell me more about books on Roerich's travels and UFO's and tibet > and that?? I will like some introductory book, as i do not know well at all > about. > > Estrella > > > > From KArc@compuserve.com Mon Oct 09 01:52:46 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 08:52:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 23247 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 08:52:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 08:52:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmgaad.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.137) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 08:52:40 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaad.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id EAA25262 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 04:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 04:51:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World "Himalayan Lights" Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200010090452_MC2-B62F-9A27@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc I'm with you -- thanks for the "grounded" viewpoint. Love, Kat in Italy From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 03:51:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 10:51:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 7770 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 10:51:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 10:51:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 10:51:33 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.42] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2000 10:51:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:51:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Nicholas Roerich Message-ID: <8rs7vh+69qc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39E11375.172F11CE@schoolemail.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1615 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.216 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Estrella wrote: > > Hi!! is very interesting the subject about Nicholas Roderich. I think i read > something about him. about he had find an old papyr in a monastery in the > hymalayas about a young initiate of Israel called Yissa, about like 2000 years > ago.... > Interesting?? > > Can someone tell me more about books on Roerich's travels and UFO's and tibet > and that?? I will like some introductory book, as i do not know well at all > about. > > Estrella I think you may be confusing Nicholas Roerich with Nicholas Notovich who also did some travelling to the Hemis monastery and apparently was told by the monks there of the Saint Issa or Jesus having been in Kashmere or Tibet. The "scrolls" were read and translated for him and he took notes which were later confirmed by Swami Abhedananda who made a special trip to the same Hemis monastery years later to confirm Notoviches story. All this I find rather interesting however since no manuscripts to substantiate the story were ever brought out of the monastery that we know of it has been imossible to scientifically confirm it. I personally feel Swami Abhedananda was a very trustworthy, knowledgeable person. The Lost Years idea has been to me an interesting area and I've collected several of the books dealing with the subject. One of the best is still in print entitled "Jesus in Heaven on Earth" by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad and I feel it contains some of the best information on the subject. - Arthur Gregory 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 04:07:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 11:07:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 18830 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 11:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 11:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.48) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 11:07:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.211] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2000 11:07:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:07:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Kundalini Message-ID: <8rs8tm+6le0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1736 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.214 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, beto401@a... wrote: > do you know how the kundaliny works? do you know how the kundaliny born? I'm > interested, because I know it is the only way to be with my HOLY SPIRIT. > HPB,JESUS,SAINT GERMAIN ,etc,etc,etc, they discovered the Kundaliny, but > nobody explain to the people, the way to have this extraordinary and > powerfull > strength. Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it. > Thanks. Yes, well, I would agree with you on this subject of Kundalini, that it is mentioned by Madam Blavatsky and is an essential part of the psycho-spiritual development of humanity. We need to understand of course that there are those who seem to have capitalized on purveying their techniques to people and selling these processes and this is completely at variance with the way it should be! It is like Simon Magus asking for the gift of the Holy Spirit and offering to pay the Apostles for it... these are things that no one should make a personal profit from... The other issue is that so much has been written about it there are so many fears and apprehensions about the spiritual path that it's difficult for the average person to fathom what is legitimate and what is fraudulent or commercial promotion! A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything on this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration or fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always avoided teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and pure of heart and money never enters the picture. - Art Gregory 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 04:28:54 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 11:28:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 24089 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 11:28:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 11:28:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 11:28:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.59] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2000 11:28:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:28:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: "Himalayan Lights" Message-ID: <8rsa5d+fb82@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2299 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.201 From: arthra999@yahoo.com > They were also quite naive, since similarly described visions of lights in > the sky and their strange motions have been seen many times as parts of the > Aurora Borealis or "Northern Lights" that appear under certain atmospheric > conditions above the arctic circle over and around the North Pole. > > Once, many years ago, during the late 50's, when night flying the Northern > route from New York to San Francisco, I viewed lights in the northern sky for > hours that appeared to be flying machines moving at phenomenal speeds in > almost instantly changing directions. Some of these moving lights, which > were later reported (in both Canada and the Midwest northern mountain States) > as being seen from the ground and described as UFO's were obviously part of > the Northern Lights or Aurora Borealis -- > In my view, the Roerich's observations had nothing to do with UFO's, and were > simply the Aurora effects that might be seen at anytime along the Himalayan > Mountains in Tibet, and from any high altitudes around the northern > hemisphere. Appreciate very much hearing about your experience and I think if you examine closely what has been said, the reports they (the Roerichs) made were not of the sensational kind that you see in many places today... I also believe there are many phenomenau taking place that have a scientific basis and since most people today live in cities they are unaware of natural things like heat lightning, St. Elmo's fire and the aurora borealis. There is also the concept though that what occurs naturally has a spiritual basis to it. While flying above the Carribean sea I looked down and could observe a rainbow perfectly in a circle around the shadow of our plane, while I'm sure this had a scientific basis, it was nonetheless comforting to feel that a rainbow aura was around our craft as it crossed the sparkling sea. I suppose I'm more of a aesthetically oriented person than scientific but I feel that what can be explained scientifically should be appreciated as well as the part that is unexplained. I think Guy Murchie wrote some fascinating books on the subject and he used scientific explanations to broaden and deepen our views. - Art Gregory 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From shampan@zip.com.au Mon Oct 09 06:07:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 13:07:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 3926 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 13:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 13:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 13:07:25 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (brian-boitano92.zip.com.au [210.23.147.92]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA23639 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:07:22 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E1D089.FCE71DD3@zip.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:04:57 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: Thankyou Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh Thankyou for your assistance (regarding Roerich thread) From shampan@zip.com.au Mon Oct 09 06:30:31 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 13:30:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 5814 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 13:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 13:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (brian-boitano92.zip.com.au [210.23.147.92]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24674 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:30:25 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:28:02 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: kundaliny Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh beto410 wrote: "Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it." What I understand of any inner knowledge and feelings such as kundaliny, those who feel, could hardly express in words. About any feeling, expressing with words is almost impossible. We can try with a vague few words, but the rest has to be left for the others to imagnine, know, understand and feel. It is not a matter of want to talk or not, it is rather the impossibility to detail. The deeper and inner the feeling is, the harder to put in words. Some people think it is very complicated.... I would say it is the other way around.. Far too simple, for our complicated minds to grasp in a flash. (I could go on for years on that, but not necessary, you are all presumably wiser than me) I shall give you a very simple example, can you describe "silence" in words to someone who has never quite experienced it? You will structure a few phrases to detail, but can you actually bring the silence into his mind? Allow me to be a bit more elaborate, even the most "advanced humans" (in mental/spiritual evolution aspect) such as Yeesah, Yeesu, Jesu or Jesus what ever you might call him, all of them did not quite feel it the same way as one another. There are light differences, although every one of their experiences are absolutely profound. What is a certain symphony to you is not the same to me, we both might admire it, understand and play it with equal expertise .. but our personal individual feelings are not the same. And we both enjoy it together, .. kindaliny is somewhat that to such great spiritual achievers .. Thus their descriptions might differ a little, but they both mean exactly the same... kindaliny as you and I would fail to describe the same symphony to someone who has never heard it. Obviously I am utterly against using words such as kundaliny, I know we should give them some "names", we have to.. just something in the back of my mind says,.. "not quite right".. One symptom to support me there is ... many sages, thinkers have given this kundaliny various other names. I am sorry, if I sound a bit haphazard, I am really busy.. but this topic is to good a temptation to overlook. From shampan@zip.com.au Mon Oct 09 06:59:11 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 13:59:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 1014 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 13:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 13:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 13:59:06 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (starvin-marvin213.zip.com.au [210.23.142.213]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA26094 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:59:01 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E1DCA6.B95D8854@zip.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:56:38 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: Jesus in Tibet? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh Mr Arthur Gregory wrote:- "Saint Issa or Jesus having been in Kashmere or Tibet. The "scrolls" were read and translated for him andhe took notes which were later confirmed by Swami Abhedananda who made a special trip to the same Hemis monastery years later to confirm Notoviches story. All this I find rather interesting however since no manuscripts to substantiate the story were ever brought out of the monastery that we know of it has been imossible to scientifically confirm it. I personally feel Swami Abhedananda was a very trustworthy, knowledgeable person." Exactly my thoughts, if Jesus himself was there or one of his followers or someone before him with similar ideas.. I fail to be sure. Jesus did travel a lot, sometimes alone, did go to visit the Qumran - monks, where I am sure all sorts of scriptures and written documents were. Did he travel further east? There are lot of rumours/ .. even one stating.. Moses also reached Kashemere .. where he is buried. As you have stated.. no solid proof can be established. My knack was in my earlier life (before I got myself engulfed with materialistic world) .. to establish a link between,.. the Dead Sea Scrolls, later re-established by Jesus.. who introduced the "LOVE"-emphasis .. perhaps reading some other materials at Qumran or even from the far east if he really traveled that far. The most deeply, accurately, rightly detailed about this "love"-emphasis was undoubtedly the term "Mehr" by Zshoarastro, who was very keen on Indus Valley philosphies. Zshoarastro's thoughts must have been in Qumran, my speculation. I should add here, Zshoarastro did not just learn of it from the eastern scriptures... he had the feelings quite deeply, but learnt of more thinkers like himself being obsessed with it from the scriptures.. and became more sure of that "Mehr"-instinct. Kundaliny / Mehr.. many other terms.. all relate to the.. definite existance of the undetailed truth.. something like that. I better stop.. I get carried away.. PLEASE NOTE: None of my statements are to be taken as facts, they are only a summation of what I have read from various resources. I do not intend to prove myself right, I wish to seek the truth, with your assistance. Looking forward to any friendly confutation. From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Oct 09 07:08:12 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 14:08:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 29378 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 14:08:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 14:08:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c9.egroups.com) (10.1.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:08:11 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: compiler@wisdomworld.org Received: from [10.1.2.208] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2000 14:08:11 -0000 Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:08:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: 16 articles from THEOSOPHY magazine added to WisdomWorld Message-ID: <8rsjg3+b09b@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1898 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.3.34.114 From: compiler@wisdomworld.org In the past seven days these two series and one grouping of articles have been finished: (1) Studies in Isis Unveiled (10-part series) (2) Antipodal Powers of Manas (6-part series) (3) Health, Medicine, Sickness, Disease (7-part grouping of articles) And these three series of articles have taken their place to be scanned, proofread, and posted in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted as they are done: (1) The Cycle's Need (12-part series) (2) A Study in Prefaces (3-part series) (3) The Astral Body: Historical Studies (8-part series) Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 16 articles added in the past seven days were all added to the "Additional" page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles that are being worked on at all times. All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more experienced students at all levels -- including the very scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with much profound and informative Theosophical information that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be "Supplementary" reading and study material for participants of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, here on theos-talk. As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful. Compiler ------- The "Additional Categories of Articles" page: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html The "Main Page": http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- From joleen@wmea-world.org Mon Oct 09 07:12:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 14:12:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 15489 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 14:12:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 14:12:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.4) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:12:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 92023 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 2000 14:12:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 91984 invoked by uid 0); 9 Oct 2000 14:12:30 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:12:30 -0000 Message-ID: <009a01c031fb$6ad23fd0$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 07:15:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" Kundalini is very real. For each person the affect of the raising of the triple fire up the spine is different for each person. The perhaps most important point of this phenomena is that the whole experience must be natural, not forced. It must be the result of a natural expression of spiritual unfoldment, for if not, the experience can be quite violent and life threatening. If natural, it can still be problematic. An important point (to me) to keep in mind, if you are having such experiences, see a Teacher, a true Teacher. There are two books that come to mind, which to me, are trustworthy. One is the experiences of Gopi Krishna. This is a book which has been published for at least 25 years. The second is a book by John White -it is a compilation of experiences from many people that John W. compiled. Especially the one by John White (I suspect you could check at Amazon.com) is good reading, for you can learn about the wide variety of experiences people have had. The Gopi Krishna experience is good to read about for it was extreme.. I hope this helps. Joleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Theos-World kundaliny > beto410 wrote: > > "Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it." > > What I understand of any inner knowledge and feelings such as > kundaliny, those who feel, could hardly express in words. > > About any feeling, expressing with words is almost impossible. We > can try with a vague few words, but the rest has to be left for > the others to imagnine, know, understand and feel. > > It is not a matter of want to talk or not, it is rather the > impossibility to detail. > > The deeper and inner the feeling is, the harder to put in words. > Some people think it is very complicated.... I would say it is > the other way around.. Far too simple, for our complicated minds > to grasp in a flash. (I could go on for years on that, but not > necessary, you are all presumably wiser than me) > > I shall give you a very simple example, can you describe > "silence" in words to someone who has never quite experienced it? > You will structure a few phrases to detail, but can you actually > bring the silence into his mind? > > Allow me to be a bit more elaborate, even the most "advanced > humans" (in mental/spiritual evolution aspect) such as Yeesah, > Yeesu, Jesu or Jesus what ever you might call him, all of them > did not quite feel it the same way as one another. There are > light differences, although every one of their experiences are > absolutely profound. What is a certain symphony to you is not the > same to me, we both might admire it, understand and play it with > equal expertise .. but our personal individual feelings are not > the same. And we both enjoy it together, .. kindaliny is somewhat > that to such great spiritual achievers .. Thus their descriptions > might differ a little, but they both mean exactly the same... > kindaliny as you and I would fail to describe the same symphony > to someone who has never heard it. > > Obviously I am utterly against using words such as kundaliny, I > know we should give them some "names", we have to.. just > something in the back of my mind says,.. "not quite right".. One > symptom to support me there is ... many sages, thinkers have > given this kundaliny various other names. > > I am sorry, if I sound a bit haphazard, I am really busy.. but > this topic is to good a temptation to overlook. > > > > From joleen@wmea-world.org Mon Oct 09 07:31:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 14:31:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 6227 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 14:31:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 14:31:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:31:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 37801 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 2000 14:31:04 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 37489 invoked by uid 0); 9 Oct 2000 14:30:57 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:30:57 -0000 Message-ID: <00cc01c031fd$fea3d2d0$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 07:34:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" I can send you information which Nicholas and Helena Roerich (Agni Yoga) wrote on the subject, however I am not quite sure it is appropriate to this list - (Roerich-Agni Yoga). Can someone please let me know? I do not want to step outside of the boundaries of the "what is acceptable." If it is not acceptable and you are interested, I'll send it to you off line. Joleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Theos-World kundaliny > beto410 wrote: > > "Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it." > > What I understand of any inner knowledge and feelings such as > kundaliny, those who feel, could hardly express in words. > > About any feeling, expressing with words is almost impossible. We > can try with a vague few words, but the rest has to be left for > the others to imagnine, know, understand and feel. > > It is not a matter of want to talk or not, it is rather the > impossibility to detail. > > The deeper and inner the feeling is, the harder to put in words. > Some people think it is very complicated.... I would say it is > the other way around.. Far too simple, for our complicated minds > to grasp in a flash. (I could go on for years on that, but not > necessary, you are all presumably wiser than me) > > I shall give you a very simple example, can you describe > "silence" in words to someone who has never quite experienced it? > You will structure a few phrases to detail, but can you actually > bring the silence into his mind? > > Allow me to be a bit more elaborate, even the most "advanced > humans" (in mental/spiritual evolution aspect) such as Yeesah, > Yeesu, Jesu or Jesus what ever you might call him, all of them > did not quite feel it the same way as one another. There are > light differences, although every one of their experiences are > absolutely profound. What is a certain symphony to you is not the > same to me, we both might admire it, understand and play it with > equal expertise .. but our personal individual feelings are not > the same. And we both enjoy it together, .. kindaliny is somewhat > that to such great spiritual achievers .. Thus their descriptions > might differ a little, but they both mean exactly the same... > kindaliny as you and I would fail to describe the same symphony > to someone who has never heard it. > > Obviously I am utterly against using words such as kundaliny, I > know we should give them some "names", we have to.. just > something in the back of my mind says,.. "not quite right".. One > symptom to support me there is ... many sages, thinkers have > given this kundaliny various other names. > > I am sorry, if I sound a bit haphazard, I am really busy.. but > this topic is to good a temptation to overlook. > > > > From joleen@wmea-world.org Mon Oct 09 07:52:09 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 14:52:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 11641 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 14:52:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 14:52:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.4) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:52:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 90826 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 2000 14:52:06 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 90800 invoked by uid 0); 9 Oct 2000 14:52:05 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 14:52:05 -0000 Message-ID: <00d801c03200$f2b71f10$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <200010090452_MC2-B62F-9A27@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World "Himalayan Lights" Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 07:55:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" Dear Group, here are two direct quotes on "The Himalayn Lights." One is from the series of Agni Yoga Teachings, the second quote is from Helena Roerich's letters: " The Himalayan lights have been observed by many scholars, none the less, for the ignorant they remain doubtful. The non-searing flame of the Himalayas, though people have observed and touched it, likewise remains as before within the limits of the fantastic. Each manifestation of light has energy in its basis, but such a force is denied. Even luminous stars and flashes seen by many are referred to ocular abnormalities. Actually, this poor interpretation is contradicted by the fact that such manifestations are simultaneously seen by several people. However, people do not usually inform each other about their sensations and visions. As a result much remains unnoticed. Therefore, the lightnings of thought also will be mere phantoms for the majority. Yet many animals are called electrical because they preserve within themselves a considerable store of energy; and similarly, certain people can be called electrical. Is it too difficult to imagine that their thought-energy can be visible as a brilliant flash, especially when a crossing of currents may be taking place? One should know how to keep one's eyes open. One must take the trouble to observe, otherwise many remarkable manifestations will pass unnoticed. The Himalayan lights furnish a suitable example." Quoted from BROTHERHOOD 1937 Paragraph 327 (©1962 Agni Yoga Society) "Geologically, the Himalayas are also very interesting, and their caves hold many mysteries for archaeologists, zoologists and anthropologists. There are a great number of hot springs. Also, other unexplored springs and salt lakes, which have various properties according to the statements of local inhabitants. As for botany, zoology, and ornithology--you have already learned from the letters of our botanist-zoologist how pleased he was with the results of his work. On these mountains the rarest medicinal plants and grasses are centered, and the variety of botanic species is unexcelled. In archaeological respects our valley, of course, is one of the richest and most ancient. There are traces of ancient Buddhist culture. Quite remarkable is the number of local dialects among the mountain tribes. Two neighboring villages frequently do not understand each other. Fiery atmospheric manifestations also could be observed here, and the so-called "Himalayan lights" may often be seen. It is most desirable to establish here a meteorological station to start studying and observing the magnetic currents, with the idea of broadening it eventually, bearing in mind the favorable local conditions. In connection with this, let me quote certain indications: "Further movement of magnetic currents over the surface of the earth manifests the lines of the atmospheric changes. Observation stations should be established in various places, and collaboration between them should be as close and precise as possible. It is true that the trouble lies in the absence of synthesis and that much energy and valuable studies are lost. Therefore, an organization of true cooperators is necessary on Earth." "Let us think of broad possibilities. "Breadth of thought and consciousness will be your test." Have you noticed that all pessimists usually possess small consciousnesses and poor imaginations?" LETTERS OF HELENA ROERICH Vol I Page 46 (© 1954 Agni Yoga Society) From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 08:34:35 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 15:34:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 21139 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 15:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 15:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web1901.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 15:34:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 7955 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Oct 2000 15:34:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20001009153432.7954.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.101.3.187] by web1901.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:34:32 PDT Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arthur Gregory I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did not appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or Tibet story: 1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts from Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara through the Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in Afganistan and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas. 2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as Kashmir. Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and Tibet, but this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document regarding Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great Buddhist schools and universities of northern India. Trade routes between the middle east and India were well established at the time of Christ. I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either directly involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have been a similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes that was the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist". You can study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this. - Arthur Gregory ===== "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world." - Bhakta-Parijna: 91 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Oct 09 08:35:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@eden.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 15:35:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 24243 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 15:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 15:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO natasha.eden.com) (207.90.192.15) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 15:35:31 -0000 Received: from default (sa3-202.ConnectI.com [206.81.244.202]) by natasha.eden.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA17599 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:34:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001009103647.00ff8074@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:36:47 -0500 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny In-Reply-To: <00cc01c031fd$fea3d2d0$0200000a@joleen> References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: M K Ramadoss Many may not have seen what Roerichs wrote, including myself. So it would benefit some of us; please post what info you have. mkr At 07:34 AM 10/9/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I can send you information which Nicholas and Helena Roerich (Agni Yoga) >wrote on the subject, however I am not quite sure it is appropriate to this >list - (Roerich-Agni Yoga). > >Can someone please let me know? I do not want to step outside of the >boundaries of the "what is acceptable." If it is not acceptable and you are >interested, I'll send it to you off line. > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 09 09:21:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 16:21:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 19060 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 16:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 16:21:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 16:21:49 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id JAA18261 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id JAA18257 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001501c0320d$8057b850$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <8rs8tm+6le0@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:24:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" My opinion: Kundalini rises as the consequence of becoming a well educated and loving human being. Aspire and then practice to be in line with the creative will of perfected humanity. Seek the buddhic intuition bridging to that creative will then think scientifically and then. . . . in one life somewhere and some time the kundalini will rise and a newly ready and capable son of god will walk the earth. Practices focussing on some quick technical fix are dangerous as are all powerful techniques without enough wisdom. First wisdom, then science, then practice. "Occultism is Altruism, pure and simple." HPB What does it matter, appearances, when one finds oneself "serving" the Truth. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 4:07 AM Subject: Theos-World Kundalini > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, beto401@a... wrote: > > do you know how the kundaliny works? do you know how the kundaliny > born? I'm > > interested, because I know it is the only way to be with my HOLY > SPIRIT. > > HPB,JESUS,SAINT GERMAIN ,etc,etc,etc, they discovered the > Kundaliny, > but > > nobody explain to the people, the way to have this extraordinary > and > > powerfull > > strength. Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about > it. > > Thanks. > > Yes, well, I would agree with you on this subject of Kundalini, that > it is mentioned by Madam Blavatsky and is an essential part of the > psycho-spiritual development of humanity. We need to understand of > course that there are those who seem to have capitalized on purveying > their techniques to people and selling these processes and this is > completely at variance with the way it should be! It is like Simon > Magus asking for the gift of the Holy Spirit and offering to pay the > Apostles for it... these are things that no one should make a > personal > profit from... > > The other issue is that so much has been written about it there are > so > many fears and apprehensions about the spiritual path that it's > difficult for the average person to fathom what is legitimate and > what > is fraudulent or commercial promotion! > > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything on > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration or > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always avoided > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and > pure of heart and money never enters the picture. > > - Art Gregory > > > 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 09 09:47:05 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 16:47:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 9030 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 16:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 16:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 16:47:03 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id JAA18849 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id JAA18845 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003101c03211$06bcc040$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:50:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" I agree. There are two ways of using words that can be considered here. One way is to describe an experience with words. Sometimes this is easy sometimes it is hard, depending on the nature of the experience. The other way is to use words to inspire and invite, to use words injunctively. Such is a recipe. Such is a sheet of music. Such are tennis lessons or golf lessons and such is from the wise about living, loving and being. There comes a time wherein one stops descibing the cake and just gives out the recipe. Follow the instructions. Experience the cake for yourself. Then you will understand. I didn't understand all the excitement and interest in concentration, meditation and contemplation until I found my own delightful way and started to practice. Now, after 25 years, I understand a bit better. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Theos-World kundaliny > beto410 wrote: > > "Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it." > > What I understand of any inner knowledge and feelings such as > kundaliny, those who feel, could hardly express in words. > > About any feeling, expressing with words is almost impossible. We > can try with a vague few words, but the rest has to be left for > the others to imagnine, know, understand and feel. > > It is not a matter of want to talk or not, it is rather the > impossibility to detail. > > The deeper and inner the feeling is, the harder to put in words. > Some people think it is very complicated.... I would say it is > the other way around.. Far too simple, for our complicated minds > to grasp in a flash. (I could go on for years on that, but not > necessary, you are all presumably wiser than me) > > I shall give you a very simple example, can you describe > "silence" in words to someone who has never quite experienced it? > You will structure a few phrases to detail, but can you actually > bring the silence into his mind? > > Allow me to be a bit more elaborate, even the most "advanced > humans" (in mental/spiritual evolution aspect) such as Yeesah, > Yeesu, Jesu or Jesus what ever you might call him, all of them > did not quite feel it the same way as one another. There are > light differences, although every one of their experiences are > absolutely profound. What is a certain symphony to you is not the > same to me, we both might admire it, understand and play it with > equal expertise .. but our personal individual feelings are not > the same. And we both enjoy it together, .. kindaliny is somewhat > that to such great spiritual achievers .. Thus their descriptions > might differ a little, but they both mean exactly the same... > kindaliny as you and I would fail to describe the same symphony > to someone who has never heard it. > > Obviously I am utterly against using words such as kundaliny, I > know we should give them some "names", we have to.. just > something in the back of my mind says,.. "not quite right".. One > symptom to support me there is ... many sages, thinkers have > given this kundaliny various other names. > > I am sorry, if I sound a bit haphazard, I am really busy.. but > this topic is to good a temptation to overlook. > > > > > From joleen@wmea-world.org Mon Oct 09 10:36:36 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: joleen@wmea-world.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 17:36:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 27830 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 17:36:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 17:36:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net) (206.80.192.4) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 17:36:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 28391 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 2000 17:36:33 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-theos-talk@egroups.com@fixme Received: (qmail 28354 invoked by uid 0); 9 Oct 2000 17:36:32 -0000 Received: from phnxdslgw4poola8.phnx.uswest.net (HELO joleen) (63.226.52.8) by phnxpop4.phnx.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 17:36:32 -0000 Message-ID: <013301c03217$ec4ade20$0200000a@joleen> To: References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> <3.0.3.32.20001009103647.00ff8074@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:39:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" Dear MKR, Here is a compilation of information written on the subject of Kundalini: KUNDALINI - COMPILATION FROM WRITINGS OF- HELENA ROERICH (AGNI YOGA SOCIETY) "First of all, one should recognize the centrifugal aspect of the heart and study outward from it, not inward toward it. The solar plexus is the antechamber of the temple of the heart. The kundalini is the laboratory of the heart. The brain and all the centers are the estates of the heart, because nothing can exist without the heart. Even the brain can be supplemented to a certain degree. Even the Kundalini can be somewhat nourished by a manifestation of electricity, and the solar plexus can be strengthened by glue light. But the heart stands as the temple of humanity. One cannot conceive of the unity of humanity by way of the brain or the kundalini, but the radiance of the heart can bring together the most seemingly varied organisms, even across remote distances. This experiment, of the unification of hearts across distance, awaits its workers." (From Heart, Para 339 - © 1975 Agni Yoga Society) "Kundalini, is the very same force, or psychic force, that acts through the center at the base of the spine. But it manifests through the heart in highly evolved spirits. In the past centuries attention was directed mainly to the center of Kundalini for attainment of the visible result of the action of psychic energy. But in the coming epoch, with the worlds coming closer to each other (higher and lower worlds), the center of the heart will be especially intensified. Action through the center of Kundalini is convincing and real chiefly in the earthly condition, whereas for attaining the higher worlds and for the sojourn in them it is essential to refine the energy of the heart." (Letters of Helena Roerich, Vol II. P. 332 ©Agni Yoga Society) "Agni Yoga is not only a progressive development of human possibilities; it should effect the combination with the cosmic energies which reach our planet at a prescribed period. This fact must be understood with surety. Otherwise a seeming succession of sickness will spread, and their treatment by external measures will bring on the most disastrous results. "How can one be cured of this manifestation of fires? They can only be utilized as a useful psychically active force. How can one cure pains in the spine if they are correlated with the awakening of the Kundalini? He who knows will welcome and aid it by rubbing in mint. How can we stop the burning of the third eye if it begins to function? Is it not more rational to help its development, shielding it from the sun? Long ago people knotted their hair on the crowns of their heads, in order to protect this channel. Can one stop the functioning of the solar plexus if it begins to rotate? Each outrage of the solar serpent may culminate in injury to the brain. Equally dangerous is an interruption of the functioning of the center of the Chalice. Of course, poisoning by opium intercepts the movement of the centers; but, then, decapitation would be simpler! (Agni Yoga, para 220 © 1952 Agni Yoga Society) "Whoever understands the addition of the Chalice to the Kundalini will understand how the father transmits the earthly kingdom to the son. The Kundalini is the father, the generator of the ascent. The Chalice is the son, awakened by the father. Whoever realizes the essence of the father will, at the change of races, understand the son. The Chalice of attainment initiates action. Thus nothing is rejected, but only strengthened. Let the Eye of Brahma be the natural supplement to this condition. (Agni Yoga, para 549 © Agni Yoga Society) "Some say that work can be fatiguing and even injurious to the health. Thus say lazy and inert people. "Understand that work properly apportioned cannot in itself be fatiguing. One should understand how to effect a proper change of the group of working nerves, and then no fatigue can find access. Do not try to find rest in idleness. Idleness is but the microbe of indolence. Muscles may ache after tension, but you have but to plunge into idleness to begin to feel the full pain. Whereas, by calling into action the opposite centers one can completely avoid the reflex of the previous tension. Indeed, implicit herein is a great mobility, which is developed by conscious experience. "When a physician prescribes a diversified treatment, time and opportunities are found to carry it out. In the same way one can find a rational change of work. This concerns all kinds of labor. "It is sad to come upon that immobility of mind which impedes the work of the higher centers. "It must be kept in mind that certain bodily positions should be avoided--or at least often changed. Stooping from a standing position interferes with the solar plexus. Throwing the head back hampers the brain centers. Arms stretched forward overburden the center of the aorta. Lying on the back may impede the center of kundalini, though it also may stimulate it. Clear thinking may come with a rush when the position of the light is improved. One has but to turn oneself toward the light or away from it and the reaction is perceptible. First of all, remember that each position has its advantage, but if one is turned into a weather-vane for every shifting wind, then the system of ascent will be disrupted." (LEAVES OF MORYA'S GARDEN II 1925 PAGE 215-216 ©Agni Yoga Society) "Before you is another manifestation of a high degree - the Kundalini bestirs itself from its base to the very highest joint. The pharyngeal glands are highly inflamed, but this physical aspect is indispensable for the fiery reaction. In this condition the Kundalini acts at the furthest distances. You realize how necessary just now is this reaction of Urusvati. Without this fiery action, there could have been no victory. But the battle is difficult indeed, and the waves of attacks are increasing. Therefore, let us be very cautious. Let us be attentive, benevolent, and very careful." FIERY WORLD I (1933) paragraph 72 ©1969 Agni Yoga Society) "The inner Lotus can be observed open as well as closed. When the protective purple aura is needed, it can be seen how the petals of the Lotus contract and become covered by the precipitations of the blood vessels. During such a manifestation an experienced Yogi realized that great danger is near. As in nature, long before the clouds appear the petals of flowers turn increasingly toward the sun or at twilight promptly fold up, so also the Fiery Lotus senses the approach of cosmic storms. And through the development of Yoga one can observe a similar tension also in the outer Lotus. Thus is called the circular rotation of the Kundalini, which touches the chief centers, and forms, as it were, the outer Lotus of defense. This particular tension is usually preceded by the manifestation of arrows, which has already been spoken about. The outer Lotus is also called an armor. We consider its formation not only a sign of danger but also of the attainment of a degree of Yoga." FIERY WORLD I (1933) para 76 © 1969 Agni Yoga Society "The convulsions observed represent a significant manifestation. A refined organism mirrors the Macrocosm, and first of all reacts in striking concordance with the motion of the planet. A convulsion of the planet cannot fail to be reflected upon the fiery body. Not only earthquakes but all of the hidden internal convulsions of the planet will not pass unnoticed by the fiery heart. Furthermore, as a planetary convulsion is accompanied by pressure upon the poles, so the convulsion of the body may be accompanied by pressure on the Kundalini and the third eye. Energy can also stream from the extremities, just as there can be a contraction of the earthly crust during an internal convulsion--truly, man is a microcosm. (FIERY WORLD I para 537© 1933 Agni Yoga Society) ----- Original Message ----- From: "M K Ramadoss" To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny > Many may not have seen what Roerichs wrote, including myself. So it would > benefit some of us; please post what info you have. > > mkr > From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Oct 09 11:34:57 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@eden.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 18:34:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 26263 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 18:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 18:34:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO natasha.eden.com) (207.90.192.15) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 18:34:54 -0000 Received: from default (sa2-102.ConnectI.com [206.81.244.102]) by natasha.eden.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA04038; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:34:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001009133609.00f806a0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:36:09 -0500 To: theos-talk@egroups.com, Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny In-Reply-To: <013301c03217$ec4ade20$0200000a@joleen> References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> <3.0.3.32.20001009103647.00ff8074@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: M K Ramadoss Thanks for taking the time to post the material. More later. mkr At 10:39 AM 10/9/2000 -0700, Joleen D. Du Bois wrote: >Dear MKR, >Here is a compilation of information written on the subject of Kundalini: > From oom_2001@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 12:36:53 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: oom_2001@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 19:36:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 3799 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 19:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 19:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web5202.mail.yahoo.com) (216.115.106.170) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 19:36:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20001009193651.10546.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.93.70.66] by web5202.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:36:51 PDT Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Attached File To: theos-talk@egroups.com, NAYABISS@USA.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Stanley Zurawski I sent an attached file about me being a mystic. Have you read it. Let me know if you would be interested. There is no charge recieving.You are the first one I sent one of my files about me being a mystic. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From oom_2001@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 12:44:17 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: oom_2001@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_0_3); 9 Oct 2000 19:44:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 11331 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 19:44:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 19:44:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 19:44:14 -0000 Received: from web5204.mail.yahoo.com (web5204.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.106.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17309 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:49:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20001009194341.21270.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.93.70.66] by web5204.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:43:41 PDT Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk-digest@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-756898537-971120621=:21002" From: Stanley Zurawski --0-756898537-971120621=:21002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! --0-756898537-971120621=:21002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! --0-756898537-971120621=:21002-- From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Mon Oct 09 16:29:15 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 9 Oct 2000 23:29:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 12675 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 23:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2000 23:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO faro.ens.uabc.mx) (148.231.192.6) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 23:29:12 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com ([148.231.176.58]) by faro.ens.uabc.mx (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e99NXRr02138; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:33:27 -0700 Message-ID: <39E25637.647AC4AF@schoolemail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:35:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com, theos-l@list.vnet.net Subject: Theosophy and UFOs References: <971105690.21148@egroups.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FF62CA18E130B1195B25E779" From: Estrella --------------FF62CA18E130B1195B25E779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit roberthutwohl Wrote: > One question to be applied is whether the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion, > Who are humanity¹s protectors and guides, would allow the entry in to our > own world-system from other systems, other units of consciousness from other > worlds which could possibly disrupt the evolutionary progress or balance, > i.e. spriritually-mentally-physically? > Why not?? > However, I have no doubts about the > necessity of other forms of consciousness inhabiting other globes, spheres, > worlds, and stars. The economy of nature and the intent of > divine-intelligent Impulse from the level of divine-substance or the ONE > ELEMENT would prohibit otherwise. > So what is the problem?? We are living in the finals of a materialistic era, where machines now are for our benefit, not for us to complicate life about it. As it is, and the atomic blast a real threat not just for us, but for the whole solar system area, the fact that other races of beings of differents levels of evolution, different shapes and consitutions, different of us politicaly, economicaly, spiritual and a whole very different concept of the universe, are visiting us, it is for me of amazing that theosophy students, DO NOT CONCIEVE the posibility of just not different shaped races to our owns, (As put comically on ET sort of versions movies) but the posibility of races not just with different spiritual levels (better or worse) but of different ways of living of our owns. Isn't just amazing the fact that here, in our own world, coexist pepole with so different salaries, so different ways of living, living on diferent economies, ecosystems, shapes, sizes and figures??? And talking of poor imagination?? A "plasmatic" "imaginary" "etheric" alien life is not for me, and contradicts of what i believe. Why not surrender to the obvious?? We are on a verge of crucial time for our WHOLE WORLD, the internet conections and the protests of Seattle and Praga are just the tip of the iceberg, is a vast ad saying to ourselves: MANKIND NEEDS TO CHANGE.... Why isn't, the posibility, that in this very important turnover for us, of inteligent lifes from other worlds coming to Earth to observe, investigate, suggest, help (or jinx, it happens-abducctions ex) this rare and unexplored world for them?? (Probably not that rare) I remember when all the famous astronomers and scientists made that table saying of the billions and billions of stars, the posibility of life in just one galaxy, could make for millions of inteligent life populated worlds. and just is one galaxy. I just love to dream. Theosophy does'nt take off my dream. it just makes it more rich. Why complicate with absurd "ethereal" "bubbling" theories??? Why not just surrender to the obvious??? Estrella --------------FF62CA18E130B1195B25E779 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit roberthutwohl <roberthutwohl@earthlink.net> Wrote: 
One question to be applied is whether the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion,
Who are humanity¹s protectors and guides, would allow the entry in to our
own world-system from other systems, other units of consciousness from other
worlds which could possibly disrupt the evolutionary progress or balance,
i.e. spriritually-mentally-physically?


Why not?? 

 However, I have no doubts about the
necessity of other forms of consciousness inhabiting other globes, spheres,
worlds, and stars. The economy of nature and the intent of
divine-intelligent Impulse from the level of divine-substance or the ONE
ELEMENT would prohibit otherwise.


So what is the problem??
 

    We are living in the finals of a materialistic era, where machines now are for our benefit, not for us to complicate life about it.
As it is, and the atomic blast a real threat not just for us, but for the whole solar system area, the fact that other races of beings of differents levels of evolution, different shapes and consitutions, different of us politicaly, economicaly, spiritual and a whole very different concept of the universe, are  visiting us,  it is for me of amazing that theosophy students, DO NOT CONCIEVE the posibility of just not different shaped races to our owns, (As put comically on ET sort of versions movies) but the posibility of races not just with different spiritual levels  (better or worse) but of different ways of living of our owns. Isn't just amazing the fact that here, in our own world, coexist pepole with so different salaries, so different ways of living, living on diferent economies, ecosystems, shapes, sizes and figures???

And talking of poor imagination?? A "plasmatic" "imaginary" "etheric" alien life is not for me, and contradicts of what i believe.

    Why not surrender to the obvious?? We are on a verge of crucial time for our WHOLE WORLD, the internet conections and the protests of Seattle and Praga are just the tip of the iceberg, is a vast ad saying to ourselves: MANKIND NEEDS TO CHANGE....
    Why isn't, the posibility, that in this very important turnover for us, of inteligent lifes from other worlds coming to Earth to observe, investigate, suggest, help (or jinx, it happens-abducctions ex) this rare and unexplored world for them?? (Probably not that rare)

    I remember when all the famous astronomers and scientists made that table saying of the billions and billions of stars, the posibility of life in just one galaxy, could make for millions of inteligent life populated worlds. and just is one galaxy.

            I just love to dream. Theosophy does'nt take off my dream. it just makes it more rich. Why complicate with absurd "ethereal" "bubbling" theories??? Why not just surrender to the obvious???

                        Estrella
 
 
  --------------FF62CA18E130B1195B25E779-- From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Oct 09 19:48:31 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 02:48:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 15263 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 02:48:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 02:48:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO escape.com) (198.6.71.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 02:48:30 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (03-064.022.popsite.net [64.24.45.64]) by escape.com (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA17154 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39E283F6.ED5FDADE@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:50:30 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini References: <8rs8tm+6le0@eGroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky arthra999@yahoo.com wrote: > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything on > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration or > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always avoided > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and > pure of heart and money never enters the picture. Until the teacher starves to death. Bart Lidofsky From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 20:40:10 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 03:40:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 15576 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 03:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 03:40:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 03:40:10 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.66] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2000 03:40:10 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 03:40:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Kundalini Message-ID: <8ru32p+rilc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39E283F6.ED5FDADE@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1391 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.145 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > arthra999@y... wrote: > > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything on > > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration or > > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always avoided > > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great > > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and > > pure of heart and money never enters the picture. > > Until the teacher starves to death. > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks Bart! I think teachers do need our support and should get good salaries. I was speaking of those who claim to have esoteric knowledge and who then sell their knowledge in lessons and such... merchandizing it... putting it on the market block so to speak. Here I pity the students who have to jump through the hoops etc.... The best teachers I've have never set a price on their teachings because what they offered was priceless... can't be bought and won't be sold out! Some other people come along and set about institutionalizing what the greatest teachers say ... kind of creating artificial scarcity so the demand can go higher....sort of like the cartels we know about today...They write their own rules and so become powerful archons! - Art zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 09 20:54:53 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 03:54:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 18195 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 03:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 03:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 03:54:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.35] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2000 03:54:18 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 03:54:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theosophy and UFOs Message-ID: <8ru3t8+qpk8@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39E25637.647AC4AF@schoolemail.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1724 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.145 From: arthra999@yahoo.com > Why not surrender to the obvious?? We are on a verge of crucial time for our WHOLE WORLD, the internet conections and the protests of Seattle > and Praga are just the tip of the iceberg, is a vast ad saying to ourselves: MANKIND NEEDS TO CHANGE.... > Why isn't, the posibility, that in this very important turnover for us, of inteligent lifes from other worlds coming to Earth to observe, > investigate, suggest, help (or jinx, it happens-abducctions ex) this rare and unexplored world for them?? (Probably not that rare) > > I remember when all the famous astronomers and scientists made that table saying of the billions and billions of stars, the posibility of life > in just one galaxy, could make for millions of inteligent life populated worlds. and just is one galaxy. > > I just love to dream. Theosophy does'nt take off my dream. it just makes it more rich. Why complicate with absurd "ethereal" > "bubbling" theories??? Why not just surrender to the obvious??? > > Estrella I like what you're saying Esrella! Other beings are likely in and out of our space a lot and we simply are insensitive to it! A thought also occurs to me about the other life forms on our planet and what is happening to them in a rather wholesale dramatic way in the form of extinction. Seems that we spend billions on space programs and wanting to learn about the cosmos which is a wonderful thing but we then step all over the other life forms here on earth. If I was one of those life forms from another world or dimension I think I would be very wary of contacting our species. - Art 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From shampan@zip.com.au Tue Oct 10 07:22:59 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 14:22:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17256 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 14:22:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 14:22:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 14:22:57 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (ike193.zip.com.au [210.23.146.193]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17181 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:22:52 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E333AB.53666E9@zip.com.au> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:20:11 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? References: <20001009153432.7954.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A8372EF3224CE75B150CDE0E" From: Shampan-e-Shindh --------------A8372EF3224CE75B150CDE0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Gregory, I have read your response below. Obviously your knowledge is of much finer detail and precision. I have not read or studied those subjects for nearly 11 years. Little I knew is almost forgotten. I would agree with your opinion with the little I remember after all that time. The links between today's Arab, Persian, Israel world and Indian subcontinent has always been there as far as far-east's existence is known. Mahenjodaro (and it's date, it's location, culture) remains the firm evidence. The amalgamations were relentless I believe, in every aspect of life. One part always puzzled me, that I could not see much relationship with any other part of the world is ---- Harappa. I have read little about it. It is as large as any other town could have been around that time of the world. The ruins indicate the town's main road being nearly 1000 miles long. Quite a large community. No wars definite with any other neighbouring civilization, not much trade either? (could someone correct me there?) Harappa's existence seems to be from around 2700 B.C. .. destruction/abandoned around 2200 B.C. Speculation, a river or flood had washed out all it's inhabitants. Architecture is different from other sub continental areas. The statues/busts feature are same as what you get today in the subcontinent of Dravidian+Mongolian mixture. But the sculpting is more like the Dorrayush period. My knowledge is vague there.. any expert contemplate? (if not too far out of topic for this forum) Arthur Gregory wrote: > I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did > not > appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or > Tibet > story: > > 1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts > from > Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara > through the > Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in > Afganistan > and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas. > > 2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as > Kashmir. > Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and > Tibet, but > this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document > regarding > Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that > Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great > Buddhist > schools and universities of northern India. > > Trade routes between the middle east and India were well > established at > the time of Christ. > > I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either > directly > involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have > been a > similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes > that was > the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist". You > can > study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this. > > - Arthur Gregory > > > > ===== > "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive > than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa > in this world." > > - Bhakta-Parijna: 91 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ --------------A8372EF3224CE75B150CDE0E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Gregory,

I have read your response below. Obviously your knowledge is of much finer detail and precision.

I have not read or studied those subjects for nearly 11 years. Little I knew is almost forgotten. I would agree with your opinion with the little I remember after all that time. The links between today's Arab, Persian, Israel world and Indian subcontinent has always been there as far as far-east's existence is known. Mahenjodaro (and it's date, it's location, culture) remains the firm evidence. The amalgamations were relentless I believe, in every aspect of life.

One part always puzzled me, that I could not see much relationship with any other part of the world is ---- Harappa. I have read little about it. It is as large as any other town could have been around that time of the world. The ruins indicate the town's main road being nearly 1000 miles long. Quite a large community. No wars definite with any other neighbouring civilization, not much trade either? (could someone correct me there?)

Harappa's existence seems to be from around 2700 B.C. .. destruction/abandoned around 2200 B.C. Speculation, a river or flood had washed out all it's inhabitants. Architecture is different from other sub continental areas. The statues/busts feature are same as what you get today in the subcontinent of Dravidian+Mongolian mixture. But the sculpting is more like the Dorrayush period.

My knowledge is vague there.. any expert contemplate? (if not too far out of topic for this forum)

Arthur Gregory wrote:

I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did not
appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or Tibet
story:

1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts from
Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara through the
Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in Afganistan
and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas.

2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as Kashmir.
Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and Tibet, but
this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document regarding
Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that
Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great Buddhist
schools and universities of northern India.

Trade routes between the middle east and India were well established at
the time of Christ.

I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either directly
involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have been a
similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes that was
the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist".  You can
study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this.

- Arthur Gregory
 
 

=====
"Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky.  Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world."

- Bhakta-Parijna: 91

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

--------------A8372EF3224CE75B150CDE0E-- From beto401@aol.com Tue Oct 10 07:37:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Beto401@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 14:37:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 12201 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 14:37:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 14:37:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d09.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 14:37:13 -0000 Received: from Beto401@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id a.ca.b32070a (4360) for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:37:08 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 9 To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 114 From: beto401@aol.com In a message dated 10/9/00 12:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, theos-talk@egroups.com writes: << would >> Yes Gregory 999 this is the number for the Kundalily, but we are right know in 666, Ho, boy this is the Kabala number yes yes yes. From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 10 07:51:28 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 14:51:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 18363 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 14:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 14:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mo.egroups.com) (10.1.1.34) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 14:51:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.52] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2000 14:51:28 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:51:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Jesus in Tibet? Message-ID: <8rvad8+4cn0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39E333AB.53666E9@zip.com.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2476 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.183 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Shampan-e-Shindh wrote: > Dear Mr Gregory, > > I have read your response below. Obviously your knowledge is of > much finer detail and precision. > > I have not read or studied those subjects for nearly 11 years. > Little I knew is almost forgotten. I would agree with your > opinion with the little I remember after all that time. The links > between today's Arab, Persian, Israel world and Indian > subcontinent has always been there as far as far-east's existence > is known. Mahenjodaro (and it's date, it's location, culture) > remains the firm evidence. The amalgamations were relentless I > believe, in every aspect of life. > > One part always puzzled me, that I could not see much > relationship with any other part of the world is ---- Harappa. I > have read little about it. It is as large as any other town could > have been around that time of the world. The ruins indicate the > town's main road being nearly 1000 miles long. Quite a large > community. No wars definite with any other neighbouring > civilization, not much trade either? (could someone correct me > there?) > > Harappa's existence seems to be from around 2700 B.C. .. > destruction/abandoned around 2200 B.C. Speculation, a river or > flood had washed out all it's inhabitants. Architecture is > different from other sub continental areas. The statues/busts > feature are same as what you get today in the subcontinent of > Dravidian+Mongolian mixture. But the sculpting is more like the > Dorrayush period. > Dear Shampan-e-Shindh: I don't think I have any great knowledge in this area but appreciate your interest as we seem to share common ideas or questions... I hear some rather odd desparate things aboput the ancient cities on the Indus river valley... One is that there were assorted skeletal remains that suggested a sudden crissi like a Mount Vesuvius eruption or sudden explosion caused it and then there were supposed radiation traces found, but I havenot been able to certify the source and whether this is really a finding or not... One thing for sure the layout of the cities was very advanced for the time and suggested considerable peaceful development for centuries and maybe thousand years or so... I will get back to you and the forum on this later... I think any topic on ancient civilizations and such is fair to discuss here. Your friend, Art 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 10 08:12:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 15:12:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 26980 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 15:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 15:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ho.egroups.com) (10.1.2.219) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 15:12:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.133] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2000 15:12:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:12:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Nine the luckiest number? Message-ID: <8rvblb+j0ot@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1339 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.217 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, beto401@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/9/00 12:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > theos-talk@egroups.com writes: > > << would >> > Yes Gregory 999 this is the number for the Kundalily, but we are right know in > 666, Ho, boy this is the Kabala number yes yes yes. Actually I didn't select the number 999, it was bestowed on me by yahoo when I tried to get my e mail identification... but I wonder if you read David Fideler's book Jesus Christ Sun of God? We had a small group that studied this book about a year ago... I recommend David's book to anyone interested in gnostic studies and ancient Christianity. Nine is also the Baha'i number as all Baha'i temples have nine sides reflecting the great revelations of the past few thousand years or so. Baha'i Assemblies need a minimum of nine members to function. ALso the Baha'i calendar is based on "19" ...nineteen days in a month and nineteen months in a year. You might like the movie that came out a few years ago about the poor computer genius who became fascinated by Kabbalistic numbers and kind of went crazy... It's called "Pi" after the value "Pi" ... I thought it was a good representation of fascination with numbers and Kabbalism. - Art 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From dennw3k@earthlink.net Tue Oct 10 16:17:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 16986 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:28 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (pool0750.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.234.240]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07723 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000301c0330c$143f70e0$f0eab3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <8rs7vh+69qc@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Nicholas Roerich Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:22:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 3:51 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Nicholas Roerich > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Estrella wrote: > > > > Hi!! is very interesting the subject about Nicholas Roderich. I > think i read > > something about him. about he had find an old papyr in a monastery > in the > > hymalayas about a young initiate of Israel called Yissa, about like > 2000 years > > ago.... > > Interesting?? > > > > Can someone tell me more about books on Roerich's travels and UFO's > and tibet > > and that?? I will like some introductory book, as i do not know > well > at all > > about. > > > > Estrella > +++++++++++++++++ Since you are asking, I will just retread a message I sent a few weeks ago, to point you in the direction of several people who attained the "inspired" state, and started movements, and wrote about it, and inspired foundations to keep their teachings before the public. If you are seeking background, why not visit some other web sites of other people who have evolve into the Illuminated, Liberated state, Krishnamurti wasn't the only one who did it in the last century. Go to the web site of Edgar Cayce, www.are-cayce.com/ There are also many books out about him. Read one or two of the biographies. With some experience, you will learn the pattern to look for. ======= Then there is http://www.zaz.com/usp/artwork.txt.html Walter Russell page + artwork+paintings Maybe you have heard of him. I think he has his foundation in Tenessee, or Kentucky. He was an Artist. He recieved the illumination, and gained world renown for his paintings and sculptures. He wrote a book about Light. ===== And: http://www.roerich.org/NicholasRoerich.html His wife translated into Russian the Secret Doctrine. His teachings are emphasized by the White Mountain Association, which teaches Meditation, and holds the writings of AAB in high regard. Try www.wmea-world.org for their web site. They have a monthly newsletter, and meetings in many communities, especially around Prescott, AZ. ======= Here is the on-line edition of Yogananda's biography, the Auto-Biography of a Yoga, and one of the books I came across when I was a teen-ager. Yogananda was sent to American by his Guru to teach his version of meditation, and got Very Big in the Hollywood community, and in California in the '20s. It is a very interesting book. They still have a headquarters in Hollywood, and a "retreat" down on the California coast north of San Diego. http://crystalclarity.com/yogananda/ ===== http://www.prs.org/manly.htm Manly P. Hall, The Philosophical Research Society Manly P. Hall was an interesting writer, and an old style SCHOLAR. The Philosophical Research Society publishes books, and maintains a large library building on Los Felis Blvd, just east of Hollywood. I have been by there hundreds of times. - but never inside. ====== http://www.uampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/steinerbio.html Rudolph Steiner biography=== Here is a Steiner biography - online. He was associated with the Theosophical Society, and wrote many books along the Theosophical line. He had a whole school in Germany, and I have some of his works that were translated in english. === Dennis From dennw3k@earthlink.net Tue Oct 10 16:17:35 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 30022 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:34 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (pool0750.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.234.240]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08169 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000501c0330c$177bfe40$f0eab3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <39E1D5F1.B5708910@zip.com.au> <009a01c031fb$6ad23fd0$0200000a@joleen> Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:01:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: Joleen D. Du Bois To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny > Kundalini is very real. For each person the affect of the raising of the > triple fire up the spine is different for each person. The perhaps most > important point of this phenomena is that the whole experience must be > natural, not forced. It must be the result of a natural expression of > spiritual unfoldment, for if not, the experience can be quite violent and > life threatening. If natural, it can still be problematic. An important > point (to me) to keep in mind, if you are having such experiences, see a > Teacher, a true Teacher. > > There are two books that come to mind, which to me, are trustworthy. One is > the experiences of Gopi Krishna. This is a book which has been published for > at least 25 years. The second is a book by John White -it is a compilation > of experiences from many people that John W. compiled. Especially the one by > John White (I suspect you could check at Amazon.com) is good reading, for > you can learn about the wide variety of experiences people have had. The > Gopi Krishna experience is good to read about for it was extreme.. > I would like to add some references to books that I have on the subject. Dennis AND THE SUN IT UP: Kundalini Rises in the West, by W. Thomas Wolfe, Pub by Sun Books, Santa Fe, NM, 1978; ISBN 0-89540-166-5 Wolfe is a computer programmer, and when he learned of bio-feedback, and other topics, he constructed a bio-feedback machine, learned to stay in ALPHA for long periods of time, and found out a lot about the Kundalini. He describes his experiences in scientific language, and describes both good and bad experiences. THE AWAKENING OF KUNDALINI, by Gopi Krishna, Pub. Kundalini Research Foundation, New York, 1975; ISBN 0-525-47398-X KUNDALINI The Evolutionary Energy in Man, by Gopi Krishna, Pub. Shambhala, Boulder, 1971; ISBN 0-394-73010-0 THE KUNDALINI EXPERIENCE, by Lee Sannella, M.D., Pub. Integral Publishing, 1987; ISBN 0-941255-29-8 Dr. Sannella co-founded the Kundalini Clinic in San Francisco, helping many "victims" of sudden kundalini arousal to deal with this experience successfully. He describes signs and symptoms, and his observations, and his methods of identifying and treating both benign & not so benign patterns. This is one of the best from the modern point of view. THE MYSTERIOUS KUNDALINI, by Vasant G. Rele., Pub. D. B. Taraporevala Sons & Co, Bombay, no publishing date, but has a foreword by Sir John Woodroffe. My copy is old and the paper is very yellowed. I understand that some publishers have republished it. It is very technical from the Indian point of view, with diagrams and photos of the author in yoga positions. ++++++++++++++++++++++ > From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" > To: "Theosophy Talk" > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:28 AM > Subject: Theos-World kundaliny > > > > beto410 wrote: > > > > "Or maybe somebody knows but they don't want to talk about it." > > > > What I understand of any inner knowledge and feelings such as > > kundaliny, those who feel, could hardly express in words. > > > > About any feeling, expressing with words is almost impossible. We > > can try with a vague few words, but the rest has to be left for > > the others to imagnine, know, understand and feel. > > > > It is not a matter of want to talk or not, it is rather the > > impossibility to detail. > > > > The deeper and inner the feeling is, the harder to put in words. > > Some people think it is very complicated.... I would say it is > > the other way around.. Far too simple, for our complicated minds > > to grasp in a flash. (I could go on for years on that, but not > > necessary, you are all presumably wiser than me) > > > > I shall give you a very simple example, can you describe > > "silence" in words to someone who has never quite experienced it? > > You will structure a few phrases to detail, but can you actually > > bring the silence into his mind? > > > > Allow me to be a bit more elaborate, even the most "advanced > > humans" (in mental/spiritual evolution aspect) such as Yeesah, > > Yeesu, Jesu or Jesus what ever you might call him, all of them > > did not quite feel it the same way as one another. There are > > light differences, although every one of their experiences are > > absolutely profound. What is a certain symphony to you is not the > > same to me, we both might admire it, understand and play it with > > equal expertise .. but our personal individual feelings are not > > the same. And we both enjoy it together, .. kindaliny is somewhat > > that to such great spiritual achievers .. Thus their descriptions > > might differ a little, but they both mean exactly the same... > > kindaliny as you and I would fail to describe the same symphony > > to someone who has never heard it. > > > > Obviously I am utterly against using words such as kundaliny, I > > know we should give them some "names", we have to.. just > > something in the back of my mind says,.. "not quite right".. One > > symptom to support me there is ... many sages, thinkers have > > given this kundaliny various other names. > > > > I am sorry, if I sound a bit haphazard, I am really busy.. but > > this topic is to good a temptation to overlook. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dennw3k@earthlink.net Tue Oct 10 16:17:39 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 30222 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (pool0750.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.234.240]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08350 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601c0330c$1ab27120$f0eab3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <20001009153432.7954.qmail@web1901.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:14:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" There are some interesting writings that concern some of the things raised here, in the article, THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS, written by H.P.Blavatsky (If references to her writings are permitted in this forum). The article appeared in Lucifer, Vol. I, No. 3, November, 1887, pp. 173-180. If you don't have access to that, it is reprinted in H.P. BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII, 1887, Pub. The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Ill. pages 172 to 239. I think, but am not sure, but maybe ULT also has a Collected Writings series. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Gregory To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? > I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did not > appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or Tibet > story: > > 1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts from > Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara through the > Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in Afganistan > and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas. > > 2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as Kashmir. > Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and Tibet, but > this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document regarding > Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that > Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great Buddhist > schools and universities of northern India. > > Trade routes between the middle east and India were well established at > the time of Christ. > > I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either directly > involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have been a > similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes that was > the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist". You can > study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this. > > - Arthur Gregory > > > > ===== > "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world." > > - Bhakta-Parijna: 91 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Oct 10 17:00:54 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 00:00:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 3616 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 00:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 00:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ej.egroups.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 00:00:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: compiler@wisdomworld.org Received: from [10.1.2.51] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2000 00:00:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:00:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS Message-ID: <8s0aje+i8h9@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000601c0330c$1ab27120$f0eab3d1@u7k5a4> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2747 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.3.34.114 From: compiler@wisdomworld.org Here's the link to the article you referred to: http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm Compiler ------- --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Dennis Kier" wrote: > There are some interesting writings that concern some of the things > raised here, in the article, THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS, > written by H.P.Blavatsky (If references to her writings are permitted > in this forum). The article appeared in Lucifer, Vol. I, No. 3, > November, 1887, pp. 173-180. If you don't have access to that, it is > reprinted in H.P. BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII, 1887, > Pub. The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Ill. pages 172 to > 239. I think, but am not sure, but maybe ULT also has a Collected > Writings series. > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arthur Gregory > To: > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:34 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? > > > > I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did not > > appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or Tibet > > story: > > > > 1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts from > > Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara through > the > > Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in > Afganistan > > and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas. > > > > 2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as Kashmir. > > Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and Tibet, > but > > this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document > regarding > > Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that > > Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great > Buddhist > > schools and universities of northern India. > > > > Trade routes between the middle east and India were well established > at > > the time of Christ. > > > > I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either > directly > > involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have been > a > > similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes that > was > > the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist". You can > > study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this. > > > > - Arthur Gregory > > > > > > > > ===== > > "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than > the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this > world." > > > > - Bhakta-Parijna: 91 > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Oct 10 17:13:10 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 00:13:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 6974 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 00:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 00:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ei.egroups.com) (10.1.2.114) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 00:13:10 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: compiler@wisdomworld.org Received: from [10.1.2.52] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2000 00:13:12 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:13:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS Message-ID: <8s0baj+cdrf@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <8s0aje+i8h9@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3421 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.3.34.114 From: compiler@wisdomworld.org Here it is again. I have no idea why it does not keep it on one line and unbroken when it is pasted in to this message board. If it doesn't work this time, I won't try again. Maybe the moderator or someone else can figure it out. Anyway, you can just copy it from the two lines and type in the whole thing in the URL web-address Location box: http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm Compiler ------- --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, compiler@w... wrote: > Here's the link to the article you referred to: > http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ > EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm > > Compiler > ------- > > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Dennis Kier" wrote: > > There are some interesting writings that concern some of the things > > raised here, in the article, THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS, > > written by H.P.Blavatsky (If references to her writings are > permitted > > in this forum). The article appeared in Lucifer, Vol. I, No. 3, > > November, 1887, pp. 173-180. If you don't have access to that, it is > > reprinted in H.P. BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII, 1887, > > Pub. The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Ill. pages 172 to > > 239. I think, but am not sure, but maybe ULT also has a Collected > > Writings series. > > > > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Arthur Gregory > > To: > > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet? > > > > > > > I was able to confirm a few things I did not know before or did > not > > > appreciate as a result of investigating the Jesus in India or > Tibet > > > story: > > > > > > 1) There was a wide use of Aramaic script or derivative scripts > from > > > Sogdiana by use of the Manichaeans as well as in Gandhara through > > the > > > Kharoshti script. So we know there was Aramaean influence in > > Afganistan > > > and Central Asia before the expansion of Islam in those areas. > > > > > > 2) Pali was used in some Buddhist circles as far north as Kashmir. > > > Most scholars assume Pali was not used at all in Kashmir and > Tibet, > > but > > > this has been disproved by the discovery of a Pali document > > regarding > > > Maitreya prophecies found in Kashmir... also we now know that > > > Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism existed together in the great > > Buddhist > > > schools and universities of northern India. > > > > > > Trade routes between the middle east and India were well > established > > at > > > the time of Christ. > > > > > > I believe that the Qumran community of the Essenes was either > > directly > > > involved in the early origins of Christianity or there may have > been > > a > > > similar Nazorean community separate but similar to the Essenes > that > > was > > > the actual community of "Jesus" and or "John the Baptist". You > can > > > study the Mandaean scriptures to find support for this. > > > > > > - Arthur Gregory > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive > than > > the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this > > world." > > > > > > - Bhakta-Parijna: 91 > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > From shampan@zip.com.au Tue Oct 10 17:47:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 00:47:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 30231 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 00:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 00:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 00:47:02 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (jimbo54.zip.com.au [202.7.88.54]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01315 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:46:57 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E3C5EF.7BB1C1B2@zip.com.au> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:44:15 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh Dear List, No. 9 has great significance in many beliefs. I did not know about the B'hai temple having nine corners. I learn all the time from your postings. I have discussed about 9 with some mystics, I put my interpretation, they did not quite accept but did not reject either. I was only a teenager, so they perhaps did not want to disappoint me. 9 is a symbol of "all in it" in very many ways. Such as, if you add all numbers from 1 to 9 together they come to 45, if you wish to add the 0 with it, still remains 45. With 45, add the two digits up, 4+5= 9 again. 9 the symbol of all known, and the 1 unknown (the non-material no. cannot define), add them together and you have 10. Add 1 and 0, you get 1. As in, all a part of the big "ONE", only if you consider the non-existent (0) and the undefined existent (1) with all the known (9). If you are interested in mathematical marvel, here is something I did out of curiousity. Time table of all no. when you start adding the digits and notice the results, there is a certain progression. one of the simple ones is time-table of 3 3, 6, 9, 12,15,18,21,24 if you add them up they are 3,6,9,3,6,9,3,6,9 and so on Bit more complex is 7 (another would be 5) 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, 70 when added they are 7, 5, 3, 1, 8, 6, 4, 2, 9, 7 and so on And 9 9,18,27,36,45, 54, 63, 72.........they all add upto 9. And nothing else. I better stop again. :)) Thankfully, Sham From KArc@compuserve.com Wed Oct 11 05:41:45 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 12:41:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 32681 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 12:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 12:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphmgaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.177.150) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 12:41:44 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by sphmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id IAA02888 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:41:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World kundaliny Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <200010110841_MC2-B680-8697@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Hi All -- There is an American Zen Master (Maestra?) named Roshi Jiyu Kennett, who I believe runs/ran a Zen Monastery in northern California after submitting herself to the punishing Zen Process in Japan as a woman (less than) and as a Westerner -- more than less than. She wrote 4 books -- one of which, "How to Grow a Lotue Blossom," explains in very simple terms how the Kundalini experience occurred in her body and how it was protected and processed until completed. The term Kundalini is never used. One needs to know what the experience describes in order to know that is what is being described. but it is a quite beautiful and simply told story. The four books taken together explain the process of being first an ego with a "good idea" to become spiritual...how reactive the first step was for her ego...how submissive she became as she began to understand the value "service" had in evolving her as a truly spiritual human being...and the continual process of growing into her higher selves or chakras as the kundalini began to be raised. The books may well have been published by her monastery -- it has been some time since I read them but the publishing info is: Shasta Abbey Headquarters of the Reformed Soto Zen Church P. O. Box 478 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 Regards from Italy, Kat From KArc@compuserve.com Wed Oct 11 05:55:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 12:55:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 21874 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 12:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 12:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmgaae.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.138) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 12:55:31 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaae.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id IAA18627 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:54:58 -0400 Subject: Theos-World Attached File Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200010110855_MC2-B680-8791@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Unfortunately I deleted it before seeing your explanation. I would appreciate your adding your name to the e-mail so that I can affirm more clearly before opening an attachment. Thank you for your intuitive support. Regards, Kathleen From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 11 08:24:01 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 15:24:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 8681 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 15:16:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 15:16:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 15:16:39 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA11303; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA11299; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002f01c03396$af4bb820$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: Cc: , "Esoteric Science" References: <39E3C5EF.7BB1C1B2@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Sham, Thankyou for your very interesting information. Theosophy and numbers are a most interesting subject and a major, perhaps the major, key to understanding everything. I am sparked by your mention of 0 as the non-existant. Over twenty years I have been entertained by the good possibility that 0,1,2 are the "numbers" (Pythagorus asserted that 3 was the first number, the first form, the triangle) corresponding to the trinity as pertains to consciousness. For me zero represents the consciousness aspect. 1. 0- consciousness of the will, full and unconditioned, empty, pure energy, a sea of fire, love/consciousness itself 2. 1- consciousness of love 3. 2- consciousness of the Intellect, contrast of consciousness of 0 and 1; the defining aspect, binary counting system, beginning of all logical processes Using set notation one is given opportunity for additional potential insights: ( ) ( ( ) ) ( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) These seem to correspond nicely to the first and most abstract planes or subplanes in a set of seven planes(states of consciousness) like the Logoic, Monadic, and Atmic planes. The most basic trinity, of which consciousness itself would be an aspect, would be: The will aspect itself The love/consciousness aspect itself The intellectual aspect itself so, above I refer only to the consciousness aspect as it becomes aware of will, love, and intellect. It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and non-being, existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself rather than consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the circle as dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside. The symbols for the most basic trinity of will, love/consciousness and intellect might best be: 1. 2. 0 3. 1 or in set notation: 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( ( ) ) This all jives nicely within my struggling mind. Recapitulation: Major and basic trinity, the three aspects: 1. 2. ( ) or zero or 0 3. ( () ) or one or 1 The trinity of the second aspect(love/consciousness): 1. ( ) or zero or 0 2. ( () ) or one or 1 3. ( (), ( () ) ) or two or 2, the beginning or basis of the binary counting system(relates to Binah) What do you think? If true this would help theosophy communicate in the realm of mathematics and geometry and rise above the different and difficult use of words when discussing the trinity(of consciousness) or the most basic trinity of all the three aspects of the "one". Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) > Dear List, > > No. 9 has great significance in many beliefs. I did not know > about the B'hai temple having nine corners. I learn all the time > from your postings. > > I have discussed about 9 with some mystics, I put my > interpretation, they did not quite accept but did not reject > either. I was only a teenager, so they perhaps did not want to > disappoint me. > > 9 is a symbol of "all in it" in very many ways. Such as, if you > add all numbers from 1 to 9 together they come to 45, if you wish > to add the 0 with it, still remains 45. With 45, add the two > digits up, 4+5= 9 again. > > 9 the symbol of all known, and the 1 unknown (the non-material > no. cannot define), add them together and you have 10. Add 1 and > 0, you get 1. As in, all a part of the big "ONE", only if you > consider the non-existent (0) and the undefined existent (1) with > all the known (9). > > If you are interested in mathematical marvel, here is something I > did out of curiousity. > > Time table of all no. when you start adding the digits and notice > the results, there is a certain progression. > > one of the simple ones is time-table of 3 > 3, 6, 9, 12,15,18,21,24 if you add them up they are > 3,6,9,3,6,9,3,6,9 and so on > > Bit more complex is 7 (another would be 5) > 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, 70 when added they are 7, 5, > 3, 1, 8, 6, 4, 2, 9, 7 and so on > > And 9 > 9,18,27,36,45, 54, 63, 72.........they all add upto 9. And > nothing else. > > I better stop again. :)) > > Thankfully, > Sham > > > > > > From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 11 08:42:21 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 15:42:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 3914 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 15:42:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 15:42:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mo.egroups.com) (10.1.1.34) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 15:42:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.51] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2000 15:42:20 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:42:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS Message-ID: <8s21oi+liet@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <8s0baj+cdrf@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1757 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.216 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, compiler@w... wrote: > Here it is again. I have no idea why it does not keep it on one line > and unbroken when it is pasted in to this message board. If it > doesn't > work this time, I won't try again. Maybe the moderator or someone > else > can figure it out. Anyway, you can just copy it from the two lines > and > type in the whole thing in the URL web-address Location box: > http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ > EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm > > Compiler > ------- I think there's a timeless quality to the "Esoteric Character of the Gospels" ... You also find it in Franz Hartmann's "The Life of Jehoshua." The ideas expressed will never be dated. I also believe a great deal of information has been added regarding the Nag Hammadi scrolls as well as the scrolls found at Qumran ...all since about 1945 that have added immense material for study and assessment that simply wasn't there earlier in the century. I think there was something about the timing of these discoveries that was also significant like the tradition in Tibet where hidden scrolls are revealed at certain times through the artifices of Padmasambhava. It is also true that if you read Hartmann's account and some other occultists of the day there is almost an antisemitic quality to them... apparently disparaging the Jewish character of early Christianity which was unfortunate since it was the Jewish Christians like the Nazoreans and Ebionites that more truly preserved the full character of the Master's message. In any event I think through recent scholarship much has been added in the past seventy years or so. - Arthur Gregory 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 - From shampan@zip.com.au Wed Oct 11 09:39:13 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: shampan@zip.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 16:39:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 21973 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 16:39:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 16:39:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vasquez.zip.com.au) (203.12.97.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 16:39:09 -0000 Received: from zip.com.au (starvin-marvin59.zip.com.au [210.23.142.59]) by vasquez.zip.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15767 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:39:04 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <39E4A52E.CBE7649F@zip.com.au> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:36:46 +1000 Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: 0 .. is or is not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Shampan-e-Shindh Mr Carpenter wrote, "It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and non-being, existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself rather than consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the circle as dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside." Totally agreed on that part. "Non-existent" is an inappropriate term. What I actually meant was, more as in 1 to 9 are numbers materialistically (in the most obvious common notion) existent. 0 is the non-materialistic, or lesser materialistic than any other no. sitting on the line of abstractness, as soon as the concept of that "non-materialistic-existent" occurs, the other numbers seem to be effected ...making all no. a doubful existent, but together they all exist, and that existence is .... the whole "one" or 1 the number itself, which was the main grounds of my theory. But also opens up whole new discussion which yours has just implied. . . The point is, as soon as abstractness or 0 comes in the numbers world, the whole concept of mathematics start getting a new dimension. Same as looking at two dimension geometry without knowing the third, perhaps there are more, one we know of already "time" perhaps the 4th. As far as will, knowledge, consciousness goes, ...I fail to see the definite links with no.s so distinctly fixed. I will read your explanation again.. Let me get to the bottom of this. This rusty brain has been too much involved with volunteer social work, radio broadcast, record remastering, amateur music analysis as recreation and tourism, other odd jobs for a living; for too long...:)) But please keep educating, I will catch up. Thankfully, Sham From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 11 10:09:26 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 17:09:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 26854 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 17:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 17:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 17:09:23 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id KAA13489 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id KAA13485 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005f01c033a6$7e601e30$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <39E4A52E.CBE7649F@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World 0 .. is or is not Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:11:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Sham, Thankyou you so much for your prompt response and additional information. Please realize that I have a minimal background in math. I have a high school course on geometry on video that I plan to review, none since the tenth grade! Yet, my prior e-mail may very well be important. My main interest is theosophy and how it might inform medicine and pathology. I'm searching for the solid and logical basis for theosophy so I can better communicate within my own field of knowledge. I know in my heart of hearts that this logical basis exists. Zero seems intimately involved and is a wild and crazy "number", no doubt a sacred symbol. I've taken note of it's being promient, the only entity, the first entity, and on the paranirvanic plane(Cosmic Monadic). I've taken note that Unity is within the nirvanic or cosmic atmic plane; duality in the cosmic buddhic; triplicity in the cosmic manasic. I'm wishing all to jive and need others to help and check things. Thanks. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Theos-World 0 .. is or is not > Mr Carpenter wrote, > > "It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and > non-being, > existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term > non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself > rather than > consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the > circle as > dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside." > > Totally agreed on that part. "Non-existent" is an inappropriate > term. What I actually meant was, more as in 1 to 9 are numbers > materialistically (in the most obvious common notion) existent. 0 > is the non-materialistic, or lesser materialistic than any other > no. sitting on the line of abstractness, as soon as the concept > of that "non-materialistic-existent" occurs, the other numbers > seem to be effected ...making all no. a doubful existent, but > together they all exist, and that existence is .... the whole > "one" or 1 the number itself, which was the main grounds of my > theory. But also opens up whole new discussion which yours has > just implied. . > > . The point is, as soon as abstractness or 0 comes in the > numbers world, the whole concept of mathematics start getting a > new dimension. Same as looking at two dimension geometry without > knowing the third, perhaps there are more, one we know of already > "time" perhaps the 4th. > > As far as will, knowledge, consciousness goes, ...I fail to see > the definite links with no.s so distinctly fixed. I will read > your explanation again.. Let me get to the bottom of this. > > This rusty brain has been too much involved with volunteer social > work, radio broadcast, record remastering, amateur music analysis > as recreation and tourism, other odd jobs for a living; for too > long...:)) > > But please keep educating, I will catch up. > > Thankfully, > Sham > > > > > > From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Oct 11 10:24:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 17:24:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 4396 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 17:22:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 17:22:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail0.mailsender.net) (209.132.1.30) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 17:22:28 -0000 Received: by mail0.mailsender.net (5.1.050) id 39E2B06900067D49; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:15:25 -0700 Message-ID: <39E2B06400000D2B@mail0.mailsender.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:15:22 -0700 Subject: Max Muller on Blavatsky: A Reprint from Blavatsky Archives Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Another item has just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc "Esoteric Buddhism" by F. Max Muller.=20=20 [Reprinted from The Nineteenth Century=20 (London), May 1893, pp. 767-788.] Article will be found in the=20 "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From kellogg@west.net Wed Oct 11 10:33:36 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: mrkellogg@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 17:33:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 22614 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 17:25:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 17:25:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (209.185.130.201) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 17:25:28 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:25:27 -0700 Received: from 216.101.65.130 by lw1fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:25:27 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.101.65.130] To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:25:27 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2000 17:25:27.0886 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F7A0EE0:01C033A8] X-eGroups-From: "" From: "" 0 is the existent, the others only apparently so. ssk >From: "Eugene Carpenter" >Reply-To: theos-talk@egroups.com >To: >CC: , "Esoteric Science" >Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:44 -0700 > >Sham, > >Thankyou for your very interesting information. Theosophy and numbers are >a >most interesting subject and a major, perhaps the major, key to >understanding everything. > >I am sparked by your mention of 0 as the non-existant. Over twenty years I >have been entertained by the good possibility that 0,1,2 are the "numbers" >(Pythagorus asserted that 3 was the first number, the first form, the >triangle) corresponding to the trinity as pertains to consciousness. For me >zero represents the consciousness aspect. > >1. 0- consciousness of the will, full and unconditioned, empty, pure >energy, a sea of fire, love/consciousness itself > >2. 1- consciousness of love > >3. 2- consciousness of the Intellect, contrast of consciousness of 0 and >1; the defining aspect, binary counting system, beginning of all logical >processes > > > > > >Using set notation one is given opportunity for additional potential >insights: > >( ) > >( ( ) ) > >( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) > > >These seem to correspond nicely to the first and most abstract planes or >subplanes in a set of seven planes(states of consciousness) like the >Logoic, >Monadic, and Atmic planes. > >The most basic trinity, of which consciousness itself would be an aspect, >would be: > >The will aspect itself >The love/consciousness aspect itself >The intellectual aspect itself > >so, above I refer only to the consciousness >aspect as it becomes aware of will, love, and intellect. > > >It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and non-being, >existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term >non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself rather than >consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the circle as >dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside. > >The symbols for the most basic trinity of will, love/consciousness and >intellect might best be: > >1. >2. 0 >3. 1 > >or in set notation: > >1. >2. ( ) >3. ( ( ) ) > >This all jives nicely within my struggling mind. > > >Recapitulation: > >Major and basic trinity, the three aspects: > >1. >2. ( ) or zero or 0 >3. ( () ) or one or 1 > > >The trinity of the second aspect(love/consciousness): > > >1. ( ) or zero or 0 > >2. ( () ) or one or 1 > >3. ( (), ( () ) ) or two or 2, the beginning or basis of the binary >counting system(relates to Binah) > > > >What do you think? If true this would help theosophy communicate in the >realm of mathematics and geometry and rise above the different and >difficult >use of words when discussing the trinity(of consciousness) or the most >basic trinity of all the three aspects of the "one". > > > >Gene > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" >To: "Theosophy Talk" >Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 6:44 PM >Subject: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) > > > > Dear List, > > > > No. 9 has great significance in many beliefs. I did not know > > about the B'hai temple having nine corners. I learn all the time > > from your postings. > > > > I have discussed about 9 with some mystics, I put my > > interpretation, they did not quite accept but did not reject > > either. I was only a teenager, so they perhaps did not want to > > disappoint me. > > > > 9 is a symbol of "all in it" in very many ways. Such as, if you > > add all numbers from 1 to 9 together they come to 45, if you wish > > to add the 0 with it, still remains 45. With 45, add the two > > digits up, 4+5= 9 again. > > > > 9 the symbol of all known, and the 1 unknown (the non-material > > no. cannot define), add them together and you have 10. Add 1 and > > 0, you get 1. As in, all a part of the big "ONE", only if you > > consider the non-existent (0) and the undefined existent (1) with > > all the known (9). > > > > If you are interested in mathematical marvel, here is something I > > did out of curiousity. > > > > Time table of all no. when you start adding the digits and notice > > the results, there is a certain progression. > > > > one of the simple ones is time-table of 3 > > 3, 6, 9, 12,15,18,21,24 if you add them up they are > > 3,6,9,3,6,9,3,6,9 and so on > > > > Bit more complex is 7 (another would be 5) > > 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, 70 when added they are 7, 5, > > 3, 1, 8, 6, 4, 2, 9, 7 and so on > > > > And 9 > > 9,18,27,36,45, 54, 63, 72.........they all add upto 9. And > > nothing else. > > > > I better stop again. :)) > > > > Thankfully, > > Sham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 11 10:59:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 17:59:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 25751 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 17:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 17:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 17:57:23 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id KAA26413 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id KAA26408 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006901c033ad$3323b1f0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:59:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ssk, Thanks. The Soul manifests periodically as the appearance of ever- perfecting personalities. It is beyond all-possible-thought, beyond even the perfected Intellect. And existence does not exist. To exist is to be exhiled. Existence IS existence, nothing for it to be exhiled from. It is the All. Not being. Not non-being. But both. I agree. Thanks. In this context 0 is existent. I get easily boggled. Doubt everything I write, please. I'm struggling. ec ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) > 0 is the existent, the others only apparently so. > > ssk > > > >From: "Eugene Carpenter" > >Reply-To: theos-talk@egroups.com > >To: > >CC: , "Esoteric Science" > >Subject: Re: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) > >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:44 -0700 > > > >Sham, > > > >Thankyou for your very interesting information. Theosophy and numbers are > >a > >most interesting subject and a major, perhaps the major, key to > >understanding everything. > > > >I am sparked by your mention of 0 as the non-existant. Over twenty years I > >have been entertained by the good possibility that 0,1,2 are the "numbers" > >(Pythagorus asserted that 3 was the first number, the first form, the > >triangle) corresponding to the trinity as pertains to consciousness. For me > >zero represents the consciousness aspect. > > > >1. 0- consciousness of the will, full and unconditioned, empty, pure > >energy, a sea of fire, love/consciousness itself > > > >2. 1- consciousness of love > > > >3. 2- consciousness of the Intellect, contrast of consciousness of 0 and > >1; the defining aspect, binary counting system, beginning of all logical > >processes > > > > > > > > > > > >Using set notation one is given opportunity for additional potential > >insights: > > > >( ) > > > >( ( ) ) > > > >( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) > > > > > >These seem to correspond nicely to the first and most abstract planes or > >subplanes in a set of seven planes(states of consciousness) like the > >Logoic, > >Monadic, and Atmic planes. > > > >The most basic trinity, of which consciousness itself would be an aspect, > >would be: > > > >The will aspect itself > >The love/consciousness aspect itself > >The intellectual aspect itself > > > >so, above I refer only to the consciousness > >aspect as it becomes aware of will, love, and intellect. > > > > > >It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and non-being, > >existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term > >non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself rather than > >consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the circle as > >dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside. > > > >The symbols for the most basic trinity of will, love/consciousness and > >intellect might best be: > > > >1. > >2. 0 > >3. 1 > > > >or in set notation: > > > >1. > >2. ( ) > >3. ( ( ) ) > > > >This all jives nicely within my struggling mind. > > > > > >Recapitulation: > > > >Major and basic trinity, the three aspects: > > > >1. > >2. ( ) or zero or 0 > >3. ( () ) or one or 1 > > > > > >The trinity of the second aspect(love/consciousness): > > > > > >1. ( ) or zero or 0 > > > >2. ( () ) or one or 1 > > > >3. ( (), ( () ) ) or two or 2, the beginning or basis of the binary > >counting system(relates to Binah) > > > > > > > >What do you think? If true this would help theosophy communicate in the > >realm of mathematics and geometry and rise above the different and > >difficult > >use of words when discussing the trinity(of consciousness) or the most > >basic trinity of all the three aspects of the "one". > > > > > > > >Gene > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" > >To: "Theosophy Talk" > >Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 6:44 PM > >Subject: Theos-World No. 9 (bit of numerology/maths) > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > > > > No. 9 has great significance in many beliefs. I did not know > > > about the B'hai temple having nine corners. I learn all the time > > > from your postings. > > > > > > I have discussed about 9 with some mystics, I put my > > > interpretation, they did not quite accept but did not reject > > > either. I was only a teenager, so they perhaps did not want to > > > disappoint me. > > > > > > 9 is a symbol of "all in it" in very many ways. Such as, if you > > > add all numbers from 1 to 9 together they come to 45, if you wish > > > to add the 0 with it, still remains 45. With 45, add the two > > > digits up, 4+5= 9 again. > > > > > > 9 the symbol of all known, and the 1 unknown (the non-material > > > no. cannot define), add them together and you have 10. Add 1 and > > > 0, you get 1. As in, all a part of the big "ONE", only if you > > > consider the non-existent (0) and the undefined existent (1) with > > > all the known (9). > > > > > > If you are interested in mathematical marvel, here is something I > > > did out of curiousity. > > > > > > Time table of all no. when you start adding the digits and notice > > > the results, there is a certain progression. > > > > > > one of the simple ones is time-table of 3 > > > 3, 6, 9, 12,15,18,21,24 if you add them up they are > > > 3,6,9,3,6,9,3,6,9 and so on > > > > > > Bit more complex is 7 (another would be 5) > > > 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, 70 when added they are 7, 5, > > > 3, 1, 8, 6, 4, 2, 9, 7 and so on > > > > > > And 9 > > > 9,18,27,36,45, 54, 63, 72.........they all add upto 9. And > > > nothing else. > > > > > > I better stop again. :)) > > > > > > Thankfully, > > > Sham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 11 11:16:45 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 18:16:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 27122 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id LAA02302 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id LAA02298 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006f01c033af$e5403e60$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <39E4A52E.CBE7649F@zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Theos-World 0 .. is or is not Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:19:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" It seems that the words "the one" refers to the none and the word "none" refers to the one. A dance of the Self/Non-self? ec ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shampan-e-Shindh" To: "Theosophy Talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Theos-World 0 .. is or is not > Mr Carpenter wrote, > > "It might be more accurate to refer to 0 as both being and > non-being, > existant and non-existant rather than as non-existant. The term > non-existant might be best reserved for the will aspect itself > rather than > consciousness of the will aspect. This jives nicely with the > circle as > dividing/uniting it's inside area with the outside." > > Totally agreed on that part. "Non-existent" is an inappropriate > term. What I actually meant was, more as in 1 to 9 are numbers > materialistically (in the most obvious common notion) existent. 0 > is the non-materialistic, or lesser materialistic than any other > no. sitting on the line of abstractness, as soon as the concept > of that "non-materialistic-existent" occurs, the other numbers > seem to be effected ...making all no. a doubful existent, but > together they all exist, and that existence is .... the whole > "one" or 1 the number itself, which was the main grounds of my > theory. But also opens up whole new discussion which yours has > just implied. . > > . The point is, as soon as abstractness or 0 comes in the > numbers world, the whole concept of mathematics start getting a > new dimension. Same as looking at two dimension geometry without > knowing the third, perhaps there are more, one we know of already > "time" perhaps the 4th. > > As far as will, knowledge, consciousness goes, ...I fail to see > the definite links with no.s so distinctly fixed. I will read > your explanation again.. Let me get to the bottom of this. > > This rusty brain has been too much involved with volunteer social > work, radio broadcast, record remastering, amateur music analysis > as recreation and tourism, other odd jobs for a living; for too > long...:)) > > But please keep educating, I will catch up. > > Thankfully, > Sham > > > > > > From dennw3k@earthlink.net Wed Oct 11 16:44:40 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 11 Oct 2000 23:44:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 32690 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2000 23:44:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Oct 2000 23:44:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Oct 2000 23:44:39 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (pool0062.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.232.62]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA24795 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000201c033d9$0c214280$3ee8b3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: <8rs8tm+6le0@eGroups.com> <39E283F6.ED5FDADE@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:38:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini > arthra999@yahoo.com wrote: > > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything on > > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration or > > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always avoided > > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great > > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and > > pure of heart and money never enters the picture. > > Until the teacher starves to death. > > Bart Lidofsky True! It is different this time. It does take money to exist in our time and location. It was OK to have nothing, and beg for food, and have little or no property, long ago. Now, it takes licenses, postage, and literature, and volunteers to package and assemble the materials. As you say, to stay alive the teacher needs to eat. In the old days, the teacher could get along by having only a few pupils. In our time, a teacher teaches thousands. So now, if you want the teachings, you should at least offer to pay for the materials, and for the teacher's time, if not for the teachings itself. Of course, in the old days, it was the student that scrounged around for food for the group. Can we understand that the person who is suspicious when money is mentioned wants to take, but never give? It was not too much different for Col. Olcott and HPB, who spent most of their own money for the Society, and got little but adulation in return. Different cultures need different approaches to spread the Teachings. Dennis From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 11 17:46:52 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 12 Oct 2000 00:46:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 12384 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2000 00:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 Oct 2000 00:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.44) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Oct 2000 00:46:52 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.105] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2000 00:46:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:46:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: The old ways still work... Message-ID: <8s31lr+k1sg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <000201c033d9$0c214280$3ee8b3d1@u7k5a4> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3099 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.147 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Dennis Kier" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:50 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini > > > > arthra999@y... wrote: > > > > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching anything > on > > > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a remuneration > or > > > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always > avoided > > > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great > > > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere and > > > pure of heart and money never enters the picture. > > > > > Until the teacher starves to death. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > True! > > It is different this time. It does take money to exist in our time and > location. It was OK to have nothing, and beg for food, and have little > or no property, long ago. > > Now, it takes licenses, postage, and literature, and volunteers to > package and assemble the materials. As you say, to stay alive the > teacher needs to eat. In the old days, the teacher could get along by > having only a few pupils. In our time, a teacher teaches thousands. So > now, if you want the teachings, you should at least offer to pay for > the materials, and for the teacher's time, if not for the teachings > itself. > > Of course, in the old days, it was the student that scrounged around > for food for the group. Can we understand that the person who is > suspicious when money is mentioned wants to take, but never give? > > It was not too much different for Col. Olcott and HPB, who spent most > of their own money for the Society, and got little but adulation in > return. > > Different cultures need different approaches to spread the Teachings. > > Dennis Thanks Dennis... I still think the old ways are best. When I was a teenager visiting the beach a wonderful lady gave me a book without fee called Initiation Human and Solar. No questions asked. It changed my view of things. Later I was just starting out in my spiritual quest about forty years ago and went to an Ashram and my Guru. He admitted me for study of the Vedanta. I had nothing to give him but I worked at the Ahsram as needed. Years later in 1997 I again was a student of a Sanskrit scholar for a year and a half, again, no fees were asked and there were only two students in his class ... In return I've been teaching Yoga for free without charges in my community the past few years... that's the way it works... we don't need fees and licenses and insurance and such when imparting spiritual truth is involved. Kirpal Singh said that the way you find your Guru is to go to him and sit near him and look in his eyes and forehead. If you feel uplifted he is the one...He also said if you havce a question your Guru will answer it with no effort on your part! No fees no lessons by mail... spiritual truth being imparted. The old ways are best. - Art 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Wed Oct 11 19:52:59 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Lloltlit@schoolemail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 12 Oct 2000 02:52:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 13104 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2000 02:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 12 Oct 2000 02:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO faro.ens.uabc.mx) (148.231.192.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Oct 2000 02:52:51 -0000 Received: from schoolemail.com ([148.231.176.58]) by faro.ens.uabc.mx (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9C2uxr13080; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:57:01 -0700 Message-ID: <39E528DD.AD0DEF11@schoolemail.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:58:37 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Ufos, astral visions and fairies References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------184A641DB9D8056BA9558292" From: Estrella --------------184A641DB9D8056BA9558292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katinka wrote: > I don't like you talking about theosophists like we are one homogeneous > group. There has not been much response to your question on aliens, which > does not mean that people don't have an opinion, or even that all opinions > are like Roberts. > Sorry if i bother you, I didn't mean to be irritating to someone of my probable generalization. The point is that Robert is not the only one here that has a disfavorable opinion of the existence of alienlife, i have seen some other posts once in a while trying to find "astral" and complicated explanations to something that for me could have a much more easy explanation. Sorry. don't take it as an aggresion, please!! :-p > Since I think we are hardly able to see and observe all the life on our > own planet, I should certainly think that we should not be able to > recognize life on other planets. In fact, it is precicely because the > reported aliens in most of the stories are so very like us, that I doubt > the reality of them. > As long is nothing with a fact or an investigation background, otherways everything is just speculations, even though i really believe in the posibility of alienlife. > > And talking of poor imagination?? A "plasmatic" "imaginary" "etheric" > > alien life is not for me, and contradicts of what i believe. > Katinka: > Do you deny the etheric life on our own planet? I mean stuf like > nature-spirits and what HPB called elementals and elementaries? > No, i do not deny it. as I don't affirm it also with basis, because i have a scientist background. In my own personal beliefs, there are some nature phenomena not well explained, that Theosophy explanations about etheric life is the more coherent and reasonable one. > Why > suppose all consciousness takes bodies of the most physical kind, like > ours? > Why not?? If descriptions of etheric life that pepole has seen are accurate, then fairies "Should NOT" be of human shape, if we follow accurately your point here. And most of fairies descriptions "ARE" of some certain humanoid shape, "as" aliens obvserved lifeshapes. > Since in the astral, more (or more easily) than > in the physical, imagination is something real (which is the reason that > visualization can work) - something imagined still has a reality, dispite > the bad reputation that word has. > So that is why pepole see aliens with sort of humanoid shapes, fairies of humanoid shapes, and Elvis is still alive, for some pepole who really believe on him. > > Why isn't, the posibility, that in this very important turnover for > > us, of inteligent lifes from other worlds coming to Earth to observe, > > investigate, suggest, help (or jinx, it happens-abducctions ex) this > > rare and unexplored world for them?? (Probably not that rare) > > Katinka: > I suppose that is possible, but as said before, I tend to explain the same > things in a way which leaves consciousness from outer space out of the > matter. > So you explain it as your points of view that involucrates mostly etheric and astral experiences, I have to explain them with my science background, so it is more believable for me (As far i don't have psychic habilities that i know about for having basis to affirm the reality of etherical space and beings) the real, solid, alien shape. > Why complicate with absurd "ethereal" > > "bubbling" theories??? Why not just surrender to the obvious? > > ?? > katinka: > Because it isn't obvious. And for me the astral stuff is obvious as an > explanation. > > For me, that I haven't a basis to affirm the reality of astral stuff, (Probably when i get my superduper "astralpsychic vision" powers) that isn't obvious either. Estrella --------------184A641DB9D8056BA9558292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katinka wrote: 
I don't like you talking about theosophists like we are one homogeneous
group. There has not been much response to your question on aliens, which
does not mean that people don't have an opinion, or even that all opinions
are like Roberts.


    Sorry if i bother you, I didn't mean to be irritating to someone of my probable generalization. The point is that Robert is not the only one here that has a disfavorable opinion of the existence of alienlife, i have seen some other posts once in a while trying to find "astral" and complicated explanations to something that for me could have a much more easy explanation.
    Sorry. don't take it as an aggresion, please!! :-p 

Since I think we are hardly able to see and observe all the life on our
own planet, I should certainly think that we should not be able to
recognize life on other planets. In fact, it is precicely because the
reported aliens in most of the stories are so very like us, that I doubt
the reality of them.
As long is nothing with a fact or an investigation background, otherways everything is just speculations, even though i really believe in the posibility of alienlife. 







> And talking of poor imagination?? A "plasmatic" "imaginary" "etheric"
> alien life is not for me, and contradicts of what i believe.
Katinka:
Do you deny the etheric life on our own planet? I mean stuf like
nature-spirits and what HPB called elementals and elementaries?






No, i do not deny it. as I don't affirm it also with basis, because
i have a scientist background. In my own personal beliefs, there are some
nature phenomena not well explained, that Theosophy explanations about
etheric life is the more coherent and reasonable one.

 



 Why
suppose all consciousness takes bodies of the most physical kind, like
ours?






Why not??  If descriptions of etheric life that pepole has
seen are accurate, then fairies "Should NOT" be of human shape, if we follow
accurately your point here. And most of fairies descriptions "ARE" of some
certain humanoid shape, "as" aliens obvserved lifeshapes.

 



Since in the astral, more (or more easily) than
in the physical, imagination is something real (which is the reason that
visualization can work) - something imagined still has a reality, dispite
the bad reputation that word has.






So that is why pepole see aliens with sort of humanoid shapes, fairies
of humanoid shapes, and Elvis is still alive, for some pepole who really
believe on him.

 



>     Why isn't, the posibility, that in this very important turnover for
> us, of inteligent lifes from other worlds coming to Earth to observe,
> investigate, suggest, help (or jinx, it happens-abducctions ex) this
> rare and unexplored world for them?? (Probably not that rare)







Katinka:
I suppose that is possible, but as said before, I tend to explain the same
things in a way which leaves consciousness from outer space out of the
matter.






So you explain it as your points of view that involucrates mostly
etheric and astral experiences, I have to explain them with my science
background, so it is more believable for me (As far i don't have psychic
habilities that i know about for having basis to affirm the reality of
etherical space and beings) the real, solid, alien shape.

 



Why complicate with absurd "ethereal"
> "bubbling" theories??? Why not just surrender to the obvious?







??
katinka:
Because it isn't obvious. And for me the astral stuff is obvious as an 
explanation. 








For me, that I haven't a basis to affirm the reality of astral stuff,
(Probably when i get my superduper "astralpsychic vision" powers) that
isn't obvious either.

Estrella

 

 

 

 

--------------184A641DB9D8056BA9558292--

From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Wed Oct 11 20:05:10 2000
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To: Theosophy Study List , theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: alienlife and DNA
References: 
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--------------CC19C5EF13A2018786E798EF
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> Beings from other planets or suns do
> not vibrate at the same pattern or angle of bonding. This is why
> breeding experiments are reported by abducties.
>

Or a major group of alienlife close to here "could" vibrate to the same planetary-galaxy vibration as we do, as for example, "we" have more close
love-hate relationships between Mexicans, U.S. pepole and Latinamerican individuals, than Mexicans with Europeans or pepole from Kazahastan, for
example.

The simply posibility of alien abductions and experiments to be true, that involucrates an inteligent life doing scientific experiments that deals
with DNA, molecular, genetic, physiological and medical studies, part all of a grounded and "very real" explanation of a phenomena. "astral"
"etheric" "maitreyic" explanations of aliens going to save the world and that are more close to metaphysical explanations of a phenomena.

> We are as we are because
> we are where we are.
>
and probably because we are where we are, that we have the unexplained phenomena that we have.

> Other possibilities exist in the DNA which will
> manifest when the world vibration changes, But for now this is it.
>

Simply: pepole from other planets go and take free samples of aliens forms to them, to study them, as a weekend biologist goes to pick up frogs to
the swamp. big deal.

Estrella

--------------CC19C5EF13A2018786E798EF
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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Beings from other planets or suns do
not vibrate at the same pattern or angle of bonding. This is why
breeding experiments are reported by abducties.






Or a major group of alienlife close to here "could" vibrate to the
same planetary-galaxy vibration as we do, as for example, "we" have more
close love-hate relationships between Mexicans, U.S. pepole and Latinamerican
individuals, than Mexicans with Europeans or pepole from Kazahastan, for
example.

The simply posibility of alien abductions and experiments to be true,
that involucrates an inteligent life doing scientific experiments that
deals with DNA, molecular, genetic, physiological and medical studies,
part all of a grounded and "very real" explanation of a phenomena. "astral"
"etheric" "maitreyic" explanations of aliens going to save the world and
that are more close to metaphysical explanations of a phenomena.



We are as we are because
we are where we are.



and probably because we are where we are, that we have the unexplained
phenomena that we have.



 Other possibilities exist in the DNA which will
manifest when the world vibration changes, But for now this is it.






Simply: pepole from other planets go and take free samples of aliens
forms to them, to study them, as a weekend biologist goes to pick up frogs
to the swamp. big deal.

Estrella

--------------CC19C5EF13A2018786E798EF--

From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Wed Oct 11 20:07:09 2000
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To: Theosophy Study List , theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: alienlife and DNA
References: 
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From: Estrella 

--------------603604F589BAC137A80D803D
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> 1) How does our planet vibrate? What is the vibrational rate? How is it
> measured?
> 2) What is trans. quantum DNA? DNA is FORMED by molecular bonding; to
> what other connection with molecular bonding are you referring?
> 3) What is the mechanism that causes world vibartion to alter DNA?
>
> Bart Lidofsky
>
>

Very good questions, Bart. that's what science has to deal with.

Estrella


--------------603604F589BAC137A80D803D
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 1) How does our planet vibrate? What is the vibrational rate? How is it
measured?
        2) What is trans. quantum DNA? DNA is FORMED by molecular bonding; to
what other connection with molecular bonding are you referring?
        3) What is the mechanism that causes world vibartion to alter DNA?

        Bart Lidofsky








Very good questions, Bart. that's what science has to deal with.

Estrella

 

--------------603604F589BAC137A80D803D--

From dennw3k@earthlink.net Wed Oct 11 23:24:53 2000
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To: 
References: <8s0baj+cdrf@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:10:59 -0700
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From: "Dennis Kier" 


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 5:13 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS


> Here it is again. I have no idea why it does not keep it on one line
> and unbroken when it is pasted in to this message board. If it
> doesn't
> work this time, I won't try again. Maybe the moderator or someone
> else
> can figure it out. Anyway, you can just copy it from the two lines
> and
> type in the whole thing in the URL web-address Location box:
> http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/
> EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm
>
> Compiler

Thank You. While it does break up, most probably know how to enter it.
Perhaps it has to do something with the width or resolution of the
screen.

I am happy to know that that article is on line.

Dennis



From KArc@compuserve.com Thu Oct 12 06:38:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:38:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Re True Teachers who "charge"...as an old friend of mine used to
say...."They don't fill our begging bowls in this hemisphere." Love, Kat
in Italy

P.S. A Lot of Times, you have to go through the chaff to find the wheat --
It too is called Karma. Eventually Discrimination begins to shine a Light
on the True North Direction.

From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 12 13:34:20 2000
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

The following was from a archeological site on the subject of Harrapa=20
on-line. It confirms what Shams mentioned earlier about the
Harappans.=20=20
For a civilization to reach the state of such development would=20
require quite a long development. As of now there has been no=20
translation (Rosetta Stone) of the Harappan inscriptions. Scientists=20
are still unable to explain how they disappeared...some suspect=20
ecological problems with the disappearance of the then river system,=20
others suspect earthquakes and natural disasters.... Very few=20
scientists believe today there is evidence of an Aryan invasion...The=20
sophistication of town planning and broad streets is evident....with=20
plumbing and such for every structure...the cities were set up on a=20
parallelogram model. The following is an excerpt:


"Harappa was the largest ancient urban civilisation. It was larger=20
than Pharaonic Egypt. It extended up to 1.5 million sq km (larger
than=20
western Europe), from Turkmenistan and Kashmir in the North to Delhi=20
in the East and Godavari in the South. On the West was the Arabian=20
Sea. Traditional historians refer to that part of the Harappan=20
civilisation found around the Indus river as the Indus valley=20
civilisation. Sites found in Harappa and other parts far away from
the=20
Indus was referred to as Harappa and was for a long time considered
as=20
another civilisation that developed around the same time. By the
1980s=20
scholars had corrected this impression and began to look at the whole=20
region as one civilisation. Today,=A0 the word Harappan is preferred
as=20
the civilisation was not confined only to the Indus river. The=20
Harappans were probably trade-oriented, luxury-conscious and urbane=20
people. Their town-planning and script indicate the degree of=20
sophistication they had achieved. But then these also indicate that=20
they were not influenced by the Egyptians, Mesopotamians or
Sumerians.=20
According to B B Lal, the seals, vases and art objects recovered from=20
Harappans sites indicate that the Harappans preceded and influenced=20
the Mesopotamians."=A0



99999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 12 13:56:52 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:56:47 -0000
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Views on begging:
Message-ID: <8s58if+bo8u@eGroups.com>
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Kathleen Arc  wrote:
> Re True Teachers who "charge"...as an old friend of mine used to
> say...."They don't fill our begging bowls in this hemisphere." 
Love, Kat
> in Italy
> 
> P.S. A Lot of Times, you have to go through the chaff to find the 
wheat --
> It too is called Karma. Eventually Discrimination begins to shine
a 
Light
> on the True North Direction.

I did some study on the Elizabethan Poor Laws that have influenced
the 
social welfare laws throughout Britain and the United States and
still 
have an influence on people's attitudes... The Poor Laws came about 
after the destruction of the Monastic system in England under Henry 
VIII, who seized the lands and pillaged the Churches. 

Previous to this the poor were cared for by the Church...almsgiving 
was extolled and the poor had a special spiritual role in that they 
were regarded as being God's poor as in the case of the Franciscans 
who begged on occasion not unlike the Buddhist monks and Sannyasins
do 
today in India, although this is likely changing as Western influence 
is predominant. With the Protestant work ethic the poor came to be 
regarded as sinful, wasteful prodigals and unworthy of charity 
(Charity was a virtue in the Middle Ages), so the Elizabethan Poor 
Laws were passed to find the "worthy" poor and to see that the poor 
would not become a burden to society. Welfare reform is an old issue.

With the recent immigration of many Indians to the USA we have a rare 
oppotunity to see first hand how Indian culture will fare here. I am 
fortunate to live near a large Hindu temple and this was where I
began 
teaching Yoga for eight months without charge as the Temple priest 
told me they had found no one who was willing to teach Yoga without 
charging exorbitant fees. Thus an interesting paradox occurred that
as 
a "Westerner" I began teaching the ancient science of Yoga without 
charge to Hindus who had given birth to the science of Yoga countless 
centuries ago.

- Arthur Gregory


9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 12 16:18:17 2000
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Message-ID: <021301c034a2$b1fa6fa0$c7d9883e@pbncomputer>
To: 
Subject: FORCES -- MODES OF MOTION OR INTELLIGENCES?
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:54:18 +0100
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From: "Jeremy Condick" 

The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky -- Vol. 1

[[Vol. 1, Page]] 601 HERMES AND KANT.
XIV.
FORCES -- MODES OF MOTION OR INTELLIGENCES?
THIS is, then, the last word of physical science up to the present year, 18=
88. Mechanical laws will never be able to prove the homogeneity of primeval=
matter, except inferentially and as a desperate necessity, when there will=
remain no other issue -- as in the case of Ether. Modern Science is secure=
only in its own domain and region; within the physical boundaries of our s=
olar system, beyond which everything, every particle of matter, is differen=
t from the matter it knows: which matter exists in states of which Science =
can form no idea. That matter, which is truly homogeneous, is beyond human =
perceptions, if perception is tied down merely to the five senses. We feel =
its effects through those INTELLIGENCES which are the results of its primev=
al differentiation, whom we name Dhyan-Chohans; called in the Hermetic work=
s the "Seven Governors," those to whom Pymander, the "Thought Divine," refe=
rs as the Building Powers, and whom Asklepios calls the "Supernal Gods." Th=
at matter -- the real primordial substance, the noumenon of all the "matter=
" we know of, -- even some of the astronomers have been led to believe in, =
and to despair of the possibility of ever accounting for rotation, gravitat=
ion, and the origin of any mechanical physical laws -- unless these Intelli=
gences be admitted by Science. In the above-quoted work upon astronomy, by =
Wolf,* the author endorses fully the theory of Kant, and the latter, if not=
in its general aspect, at any rate in some of its features, reminds one st=
rongly of certain esoteric teachings. Here we have the world's system rebor=
n from its ashes, through a nebula; the emanation from the bodies, dead and=
dissolved in Space -- resultant of the incandescence of the solar centre r=
eanimated by the combustible matter of the planets. In this theory, generat=
ed and developed in the brain of a young man hardly twenty-five years of ag=
e, who had never left his native place, a small town of Northern Prussia (K=
onigsberg) one can hardly fail to recognise either an inspiring external po=
wer, or the reincarnation which the Occultists see in it. It fills a gap wh=
ich Newton, with all his genius, failed to bridge. And surely it is our pri=
meval matter, Akasa, that Kant had in view, when proposing to solve Newton'=
s difficulty and his failure to explain, by the natural forces, the primiti=
ve impulse imparted to the planets, by the postulation of a universally per=
vading primordial substance


<<<<>>>>



From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Oct 12 16:22:10 2000
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To: 
References: <8s31lr+k1sg@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World The old ways still work...
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:24:58 -0700
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From: "Dennis Kier" 

Yes, you are right .

You are talking about the one on one situation. But, then, if we go
into the bookstores, or specalty shops, we see the loads of tacky
knick-knacks, and the tons of books on occult and mystical subjects,
we are out on the other extreme of the Wisdom Teachings.

Both sides need to be served. Only a relative few will be served by
your methods. The great wave of inquirers will not find a personal
guru, but will have to prepare themselves on their own. They will have
to purchace the teachings in the form of books, and correspondence
cources, and the like.

If you go into a Theosophical Book store today, wishing to find some
of the teachings, will you expect the proprieters to give you the
book, or will you expect to purchace them?

Others not in your particular situation will need to pay for the
materials involved, and even for the time expended to make them
available, if not for the "teachings" themselves.

In some situations, it is different this time.

Dennis


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Theos-World The old ways still work...


> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Dennis Kier"  wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bart Lidofsky 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini
> >
> >
> > > arthra999@y... wrote:
> >
> > > > A test that you can make is whether the person teaching
anything
> > on
> > > > this subject of spiritual liberation or such wants a
> remuneration
> > or
> > > > fee. I would be suspicious of such a person and have always
> > avoided
> > > > teachers who offered lessons in this area for fees. The great
> > > > teachers offer these things to worthy students who are sincere
> and
> > > > pure of heart and money never enters the picture.
> > >
> >
> > > Until the teacher starves to death.
> > >
> > > Bart Lidofsky
> >
> >
> >
> > True!
> >
> > It is different this time. It does take money to exist in our time
> and
> > location. It was OK to have nothing, and beg for food, and have
> little
> > or no property, long ago.
> >
> > Now, it takes licenses, postage, and literature, and volunteers to
> > package and assemble the materials. As you say, to stay alive the
> > teacher needs to eat. In the old days, the teacher could get along
> by
> > having only a few pupils. In our time, a teacher teaches
thousands.
> So
> > now, if you want the teachings, you should at least offer to pay
for
> > the materials, and for the teacher's time, if not for the
teachings
> > itself.
> >
> > Of course, in the old days, it was the student that scrounged
around
> > for food for the group. Can we understand that the person who is
> > suspicious when money is mentioned wants to take, but never give?
> >
> > It was not too much different for Col. Olcott and HPB, who spent
> most
> > of their own money for the Society, and got little but adulation
in
> > return.
> >
> > Different cultures need different approaches to spread the
> Teachings.
> >
> > Dennis
>
>
> Thanks Dennis... I still think the old ways are best.
>
> When I was a teenager visiting the beach a wonderful lady gave me a
> book without fee called Initiation Human and Solar. No questions
> asked. It changed my view of things.
>
> Later I was just starting out in my spiritual quest about forty
years
> ago and went to an Ashram and my Guru. He admitted me for study of
> the
> Vedanta. I had nothing to give him but I worked at the Ahsram as
> needed. Years later in 1997 I again was a student of a Sanskrit
> scholar for a year and a half, again, no fees were asked and there
> were only two students in his class ... In return I've been teaching
> Yoga for free without charges in my community the past few years...
> that's the way it works... we don't need fees and licenses and
> insurance and such when imparting spiritual truth is involved.
>
> Kirpal Singh said that the way you find your Guru is to go to him
and
> sit near him and look in his eyes and forehead. If you feel uplifted
> he is the one...He also said if you havce a question your Guru will
> answer it with no effort on your part! No fees no lessons by mail...
> spiritual truth being imparted. The old ways are best.
>
> - Art
>
> 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
>
>
> -------------------------- eGroups
Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
> eGroups eLerts
> It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/13/_/224922/_/971311612/
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-_->
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 12 17:14:41 2000
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To: 
Subject: Fw: attempt at smooth intellectual understanding of esoterics
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:16:54 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

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I forward this to the theosophy group for consideration.

Gene


-----=20



Esoteric Science=20

Dear Group,

This is probably the final outline of a form of meditation I have been doin=
g for twenty years. It is a relief that I seem to be able to go no further=
and have seemed to find a wall of silence that seems to be a natural limit=
.

Let this blank space represent absolute silence on all matters esoteric:













The basic trinity, the most primitive that one might ever imagine would the=
n be the famous three aspects:


1.

2. ( )

3. ( ) ( ) ( ) . . .infinity


meaning

1. Will aspect
2. Love/consciousness aspect
3. Intellectual aspect



Let total unconditioned consciousness and bare subjectivity be all there is=
, the ALL(the second aspect above)


IT has three aspects:

1. Consciousness as it is, empty, aware of the silence=20

2. Consciousness aware of Itself

3. Consciousness aware of Itself and the silence(the Intellect)(how very Z=
en)


symbolized by


1. ( )

2. ( ( ) )

3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) )


Consciousness of Itself is the primal self-reference and leads to an infini=
te regress of states of consciousness. These are best organized like music=
and light (and our own thought) into sets of seven with each subset having=
seven subsets on and on and on, infinitely.

1. Pick a subset. Leave it empty. Call it the first plane or state of con=
sciousness for some Being.

2. Pick the next lower subset. Place a circle in it the symbol of Total Un=
conditioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity. Call it the second plane =
or state of consciousness.

3. Pick the next lower subset. Place an empty space and a circle in it in =
infinite alternation, each with equal "duration".

The next four states, completing the set of seven states, are the permutati=
ons of these primary three so all seven are:

1. Consciousness of the will aspect or Reality(asserted)

2. Consciousness of the love/consciousness aspect or Subjectivity

3. Consciousness of both of the above states of consciousness or Objectivit=
y

4. Pure mathematics or the harmonized beauty of the subjective/objective ex=
pressive aspects of Life, the integrated whole of the two expressive aspect=
s, one unified expression, Life Itself!

5. Wisdom/Science(occultism: altruism pure and simple) or the abstract know=
ledge of the true Self(Wisdom) causally connected(through the causal body o=
f the Higher Self) with the concrete knowledge of matter(Science) The Law =
of Reality objectively expressed(Nature), a principled de-emphasis of subje=
ctivity

6. Emotion, Idealism, Devotion, Dreams, Feelings: the Law of Reality felt i=
n the heart of hearts; a principled anti-intellectuality, a principled subj=
ective but non-objective view.

7. Physical: The Law of Reality, Subjective expression of that Law and Obje=
ctive expression of that Law all working together for the total and supreme=
expression of the beauty, science, feelings and magic of the natural world=
.


>From the Silence, the very limit of human expression, to the future end of =
time when humanity, as a whole, will walk and care for this earth fulfillin=
g the Law through love and light.

"Let Light and Love and Power restore the Plan on Earth."

Om





---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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I forward this to the theosophy group for=
=20
consideration.


 


Gene


 


 


-----=20

 



Esoteric Science=20



Dear Group,


 


This is probably the final outline of a fo=
rm of=20
meditation I have been doing for twenty years.  It is a relief that I =
seem=20
to be able to go no further and have seemed to find a wall of silence that =
seems=20
to be a natural limit.


 


Let this blank space represent absolute si=
lence on=20
all matters esoteric:


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


The basic trinity, the most primitive that=
 one=20
might ever imagine would then be the famous three aspects:


 


 


1.


 


2. (      &n=
bsp;=20
)


 


3. (    =20
)       (    =20
)      =20
(     )       . .=20
.infinity


 


 


meaning


 


1. Will aspect


2. Love/consciousness aspect


3. Intellectual aspect


 


 


 


Let total unconditioned consciousness and =
bare=20
subjectivity be all there is, the ALL(the second aspect above)


 


 


IT has three aspects:


 


1.  Consciousness as it is, empty, aw=
are of=20
the silence 


 


2.  Consciousness aware of Itself


 


3.  Consciousness aware of Itsel=
f and the=20
silence(the Intellect)(how very Zen)


 


 


symbolized by


 


 


1. (     )=



 


2. ( ( ) )


 


3. (     ( ), ( ( )=20
)     )


 


 


Consciousness of Itself is the primal=20
self-reference and leads to an infinite regress of states of=20
consciousness.  These are best organized like music and light (and our=
own=20
thought) into sets of seven with each subset having seven subsets on and on=
and=20
on, infinitely.


 


1. Pick a subset.  Leave it empty.&nb=
sp; Call=20
it the first plane or state of consciousness for some Being.


 


2. Pick the next lower subset.  Place=
a circle=20
in it the symbol of Total Unconditioned Consciousness and Bare=20
Subjectivity.  Call it the second plane or state of=20
consciousness.


 


3. Pick the next lower subset.  Place=
an empty=20
space and a circle in it in infinite alternation, each with equal=20
"duration".


 


The next four states, completing the set o=
f seven=20
states, are the permutations of these primary three so all seven=20
are:


 


1. Consciousness of the will aspect or=20
Reality(asserted)


 


2. Consciousness of the love/consciousness=
aspect=20
or Subjectivity


 


3. Consciousness of both of the above stat=
es of=20
consciousness or Objectivity


 


4. Pure mathematics or the harmonized beau=
ty of the=20
subjective/objective expressive aspects of Life, the integrated whole =
of=20
the two expressive aspects, one unified expression, Life Itself!

 


5. Wisdom/Science(occultism: altruism pure=
and=20
simple) or the abstract knowledge of the true Self(Wisdom) causally=20
connected(through the causal body of the Higher Self) with the =20
concrete knowledge of matter(Science) The Law of Reality objectively=20
expressed(Nature), a principled de-emphasis of subjectivity


 


6. Emotion, Idealism, Devotion, Dreams, Fe=
elings:=20
the Law of Reality felt in the heart of hearts; a principled=20
anti-intellectuality, a principled subjective but non-objective=20
view.


 


7. Physical: The Law of Reality, Subjectiv=
e=20
expression of that Law and Objective expression of that Law all working tog=
ether=20
for the total and supreme expression of the beauty, science, feelings and m=
agic=20
of the natural world.


 


 


From the Silence, the very limit of human=
=20
expression, to the future end of time when humanity, as a whole, =
will=20
walk and care for this earth fulfilling the Law through love and=20
light.


 


"Let Light and Love and Power restore the =
Plan on=20
Earth."


 


Om


 


 


 


 



To unsubscribe, write to escience-unsubscribe@listbot.com
Make your busi=
ness=20
more productive! Instantly automate routine
business tasks like payroll,=
time=20
cards, expense reports, invoices,
purchase orders, business forms and mo=
re -=20
for free! Try
Freeworks.com today=20
at

http://www.bcentral.com/listbot/Freeworks


------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C03470.37F63E00--

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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Estrella wrote:
> 
> > 1) How does our planet vibrate? What is the vibrational rate? How is it
> > measured?
> > 2) What is trans. quantum DNA? DNA is FORMED by molecular bonding; to
> > what other connection with molecular bonding are you referring?
> > 3) What is the mechanism that causes world vibartion to alter DNA?
> >
> > Bart Lidofsky
> >
> >
> 
> Very good questions, Bart. that's what science has to deal with.


People making up nonsense words and pretending that they're being deep?

Bart Lidofsky

From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 13 01:39:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 04:38:34 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Views on begging:
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

How droll and wonderful, Art. I used to teach Yoga 30 years ago and was
considered quite "odd" in those days. Love, kat in italy

From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 13 04:50:40 2000
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Subject: Re: The old ways still work...
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Maybe Dennis we're talking about two aspects of the same elephant... 
At some point for spiritual advancement I think a one on one is 
absolutamente essential... People may see something that sparks an 
interest in a movie, magazine...something triggers their inner self
to 
investigate further. 

What I dislike are those who are merchandizing truths that should be 
available to all ... or at least based on the sincerety of the seeker 
and willingness to investigate... The other concern I have is that
you 
have an elite forming who can afford to take lesons or purchase the 
books leaving out those who are just as worthy... I think the TSA 
should be commended for keeping the membership dues at a minimum or 
allowing some way to ease a less wealthy individual to join. Other 
esoteric groups in charging four or more times as much are creating a 
kind of elitism. This is happening in Yoga, so you have a topsie 
turvie affair with only the affluent affording Yoga instruction,
while 
the real traditional basis of Yoga is on Vairagya, dispassion and 
detachment from worldly possessions...So this is what is essential to 
be wary of elitist, secretive organizations that will cater to a very 
select audience.

- Art



--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Dennis Kier"  wrote:
> Yes, you are right .
> 
> You are talking about the one on one situation. But, then, if we go
> into the bookstores, or specalty shops, we see the loads of tacky
> knick-knacks, and the tons of books on occult and mystical subjects,
> we are out on the other extreme of the Wisdom Teachings.
> 
etc.


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 13 05:04:11 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Views on begging:
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Kathleen Arc  wrote:
> How droll and wonderful, Art. I used to teach Yoga 30 years ago
and 
was
> considered quite "odd" in those days. Love, kat in italy

Commendations to you Kat! You were a pioneer... I see Yoga as a means 
to reach more people with the wisdom teachings and have had contacts 
that would not have been possible otherwise. The current enthusiasm 
for Yoga owes a lot to those who taught before. By the way, I'm an 
anomly myself in that I'm perhaps older than a lot of the teachers I 
know, but Yoga really has been essential in extending my health to 
serve others.

- Art

999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 13 05:32:32 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:31:40 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Re: Views on begging:
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear Art -- My problem was after about 10 years of Hatha yoga, it made me
too fragile emotionally to be able to live in Kali Yuga! How's 'bout them
apples!! Life is full of awesome surprises.=20=20

So with incredible karma I was led to an incredible spiritual teacher --
one who had synthesized Alice Bailey, Helena Roerich and HPB....Torkom
Saraydarian. From that time I began to learn many principles which
strengthened me physically, emotionally and mentally -- and I "ain't done
yet"! But I had to drop the fragility I had acquired with Hatha Yoga and
move into what might be termed "Raja Yoga" -- the union of the intellect --
and then finally "Bhakti Yoga" -- the union of the Heart...because my
teacher knew from Straight Knowledge that I needed an open Heart this
trip...that my head had gotten totally carried away in the "past". So I
had to let go of Hatha Yoga -- not easy to do because it aided me at one
time to drop much worse habits of the '60's...but it was wonderful for me
when I needed it -- and very familiar right away.

Much love -- Kat in Italy

From ringding@blinx.de Fri Oct 13 11:23:21 2000
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To: 
References: <8rs7vh+69qc@eGroups.com> <000301c0330c$143f70e0$f0eab3d1@u7k5a4>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Nicholas Roerich
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:24:01 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 


>http://www.uampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/steinerbio.html

>Rudolph Steiner biography=== Here is a Steiner biography - online. He
>was associated with the Theosophical Society, and wrote many books
>along the Theosophical line. He had a whole school in Germany, and I
>have some of his works that were translated in english.

this site is poppycock, f.e. the split with Adyar and the forming of the
Antroposophical Society was in 1912/13 and not 1909 etc.
Frank



From eldon@theosophy.com Fri Oct 13 16:58:48 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:58:39 -0000
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Fwd: Public radio talk in the Netherlands by G. de Purucker
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From: "Eldon Tucker" 

--- In mahat@egroups.com, "Eldon Tucker"  wrote:
This is to announce the start of the mahat list at egroups.com. 
The list is for multimedia theosophical materials. New materials
will initially be announced and appear in the list's archives.
Eventually they'll migrate to other websites, and there will 
be links to the new locations. 

The first item has been added to the archives. (They are readable
by anyone, but you need to subscribe to the list if you want to
get email notices of future additions, as they happen.)

The item is a 17 minute radio talk given by G. de Purucker in
The Netherlands in the 1930's. It's an mp3 file is about 3MB in
size. You can download the file directly from:

http://www.egroups.com/files/mahat/audio/purucker/gdp.mp3


For the homepage for the mahat list, see:

http://www.egroups.com/group/mahat

For more information.
--- End forwarded message ---



From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 13 17:09:20 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:
> What I dislike are those who are merchandizing truths that should be
> available to all ... 

That's what libraries are for.

> The other concern I have is that you have an elite forming who can afford 
> to take lesons or purchase the books leaving out those who are just as 
> worthy... 

Those who are truly worthy don't need the lessons and books, at least
those which are not readily available. Or would be willing to go through
the extra trouble rather than expect to sit on their posteriors and have
someone hand it to them on a silver platter.

Bart Lidofsky

From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Fri Oct 13 17:24:20 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:31:07 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Theos-World: Teaching Materials for Esoteric Buddhism
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Everyone,

I am currently teaching a course "Introduction to Buddhism" at the
University of Alberta in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I am including a
section on "Esoteric Buddhism" near the end of the term (mid-November) and
wondered if anyone could suggest someuseful teaching aids for such an
endeavour. Keeping in mind that I have limited time to present the
information, perhaps something like a short film is available which
presents Blavatsky's position in a clear and *unbiased* format. It has
been difficult to find any multimedia tools (films, videos, radio
interviews, etc.) that don't go on and on about Blavatsky's "insanity and
inane ramblings"!!

I also understand that there may be a theosophical lodge here in Edmonton?
I would appreciate any information available on this. Thanks!

Love and Light,
Todd


From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 14 01:58:26 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 04:57:56 -0400
Subject: Theos-World: Teaching Materials for Esoteric Buddhism
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Hi Todd -- Might I also suggest a book by Saraydarian: "Buddha Sutra" --
an easily absorbed, supposed "dialogue with The Buddha" which lays out in
simple terms the principles of The Buddha and was written as a result of
many years of meditation and study of The Buddha and His Principles by
Torkom Saraydarian.=20=20

I believe the Saraydarian Institute also carries a video (which I do NOT
have) -- so I'm giving you herewith their mailing address and phone and
fax to inquire:

Saraydarian Institute
15455 Greenway-Hayden Loop C-2
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
(480) 609-3732/609-3798 (FAX)

I will personally inquire IF they have a general e-mail and forward it to
you shortly. With love and light -- Kat in Italy
--------------
Hi Everyone,

I am currently teaching a course "Introduction to Buddhism" at the
University of Alberta in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I am including a
section on "Esoteric Buddhism" near the end of the term (mid-November) and
wondered if anyone could suggest someuseful teaching aids for such an
endeavour. Keeping in mind that I have limited time to present the
information, perhaps something like a short film is available which
presents Blavatsky's position in a clear and *unbiased* format. It has
been difficult to find any multimedia tools (films, videos, radio
interviews, etc.) that don't go on and on about Blavatsky's "insanity and
inane ramblings"!!

I also understand that there may be a theosophical lodge here in Edmonton?
I would appreciate any information available on this. Thanks!

Love and Light,
Todd

From joleen@wmea-world.org Sat Oct 14 07:17:43 2000
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To: 
References: <200010140458_MC2-B6DE-D9F9@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World: Teaching Materials for Esoteric Buddhism
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 07:20:52 -0700
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From: "Joleen D. Du Bois" 

Helena Roerich wrote a book called "Foundations of Buddhism." Both this book
by Roerich and the Buddha Sutra is available in the White Mountain Ed. Assn.
bookstore.... you can e-mail staff@wmea-world.org

Both books are highly recommended.

Joleen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathleen Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 1:57 AM
Subject: Theos-World: Teaching Materials for Esoteric Buddhism


> Hi Todd -- Might I also suggest a book by Saraydarian: "Buddha Sutra" --
> an easily absorbed, supposed "dialogue with The Buddha" which lays out in
> simple terms the principles of The Buddha and was written as a result of
> many years of meditation and study of The Buddha and His Principles by
> Torkom Saraydarian.
>
> I believe the Saraydarian Institute also carries a video (which I do NOT
> have) -- so I'm giving you herewith their mailing address and phone and
> fax to inquire:
>
> Saraydarian Institute
> 15455 Greenway-Hayden Loop C-2
> Scottsdale, AZ 85260
> (480) 609-3732/609-3798 (FAX)
>
> I will personally inquire IF they have a general e-mail and forward it to
> you shortly. With love and light -- Kat in Italy
> --------------
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I am currently teaching a course "Introduction to Buddhism" at the
> University of Alberta in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I am including a
> section on "Esoteric Buddhism" near the end of the term (mid-November) and
> wondered if anyone could suggest someuseful teaching aids for such an
> endeavour. Keeping in mind that I have limited time to present the
> information, perhaps something like a short film is available which
> presents Blavatsky's position in a clear and *unbiased* format. It has
> been difficult to find any multimedia tools (films, videos, radio
> interviews, etc.) that don't go on and on about Blavatsky's "insanity and
> inane ramblings"!!
>
> I also understand that there may be a theosophical lodge here in Edmonton?
> I would appreciate any information available on this. Thanks!
>
> Love and Light,
> Todd
>
>
>
>


From shampan@zip.com.au Sat Oct 14 08:07:55 2000
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Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

As our knowledge goes deeper into the molecular structures of our
body, and at certain times soon, we might appear to be a body of
complex chemical reactions only. All the feelings, thoughts,
spirituality ... might appear to be nothing but result of some
definite, particualr, detectable chemical's action and reaction.

The fear I always have with knowledgable people, some tend to be
quite confident, when their knowledge get to a certain stage
above most other people. They start relying far too much on their
knowledge, which might appear to be suffecient for that moment
(suffecient, not complete). And when such personalities are
sitting on chairs of high designation, my fear rises even higher.
Specially if the seat is of educational responsibility. Be it
quantam physics, psychology, automotive engineering, or even
cooking.. all our knowledge can turn upside down any time with a
new info .. any time, about anything.

I wish we all learn more, but I also wish, we all leave that
little "hole" in our confidence, for the rectifying info to come
through. Sometimes they come from resources we overlook due to
our knowledge being far superior in total than that resource. The
resource might not itself be aware how revolutionary the new info
is. We should just try to keep an ear, eye open for them.

There are always things we do not know. Another problem is, in
most spiritual researches, as soon as we find a physical
explanation for a psychological feeling, we tend to not treat it
as something spiritual. Spiritual always does not have to be
un-explainable by other means. Most of the time it is so, due to
our lack of wide mass practice. But should another field of
science explain why some mental reaction occurs chemically.. I
hope we do not regard it less vital.




From shampan@zip.com.au Sat Oct 14 09:04:07 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

I think meditation is becoming more and more a necessity for our
today's life. We are all above the age of 20 I would presume on
this list.

I noticed something amongst youngsters. They spend lesser and
lesser time at any place where they are supposed be "motionless".
I did not grow up all that long ago. But when I was young boy, I
had to play that role at various occassions. For example, to
visit my grandma once a week. This was a place hardly anyone
spoke, as she was ill. I had to stay quiet. Sit in a chair, and
behave like a statue. It was the decent/appropriate way to
behave. Casually she would smile, pat on my cheek, or kiss my
palms. But there were few things which I did not quite experience
anywhere else (till much later)..... lack of motion, absolute
silence, a thick air of serenity/calmness not of strictness but
love/affection/care, even if the number of people in the room was
over 15. I was never the ideal boy either, this same kid who
smashed a car doing over 80 miles when he was not even 14. The
variety of experience was there in my life. Being from a typical
public-service/academic family (middle class), my mother had to
put an effort to replace the car, which still hurts me.

How often does a person today ever experience silence? Imagine
how many children have grown up recently who have never known how
to "not do anything".

I once tired something with a young boy of 17, my neighbour's
son. I drive him to town sometimes if on my way. I always have my
windows up and music going with various loudness, mostly
classics/classical. He has done it with me many times. It is very
quiet in my car. Once just out of a whim, I turned the stereo
off. I watched him with the corner of my eye. He knows me far to
well, almost a family member, and there is no reason for him to
be nervous. 1 minute, first he tried to wind the window down,
stopped ..remembered I don't like it, then his hands stretched
towards the stereo, paused and stopped, I pretened not to notice,
just kept driving. Then he started to tap on his knees with his
finger-tips. I broke the silence, "all okay with you at school?".
He replied "Yep". Felt a bit relieved. I stopped talking and gave
him no chance to open another conversation. I know I was
wicked...:))... 10 minutes, he was getting restless, trying to
breathe cautiously. After that I thought "enough". Asked him to
turn the radio on and tune it to his station, the song came on
was "Message in a bottle" by Police. Not something his type, he
is far too young for POLICE, I said with enthusiasm.."hey one of
my era songs".. I turned it up really high. And watched him
carefully, you would have thought someone just had rescued him
from certain death. I was cruel.:))

Later I spoke of it to one of my elderly friends she is 78. She
laughed and said things which we both considered jokes.. but are
they really? Her speech was ..

"Kids today hardly have a rest, they either work hard at school,
or the bad ones do something else never stopping, the movies are
full of over-action, TV commercials are filled with boom boom
sound in the back, everyone talks so loud if not screaming. Their
icons are all that type too. They are becoming so hyperactive,
have you noticed, how many children take those tonic drinks
Lucazade and things? Or even the fizzy things with artificial
sugar. Soon they will all turn zombies.( she laughed aloud) My
grandchildren are all in their 20's, they work hard, they are all
workaholic, which my childrens call 'good children'. What is so
good about it? They work hard, they think very little of anyting
but money to buy things and the weekend they party and nothing
else. I don't think they could name a classic novel. I don't
think they go to greenpeace movement because they are really
concerned, they do it more for the fashion. It is not about being
naughtly, I was more mischeavious in my early life than any of
these children, their life is so chaotically 'monotoned'. Or am
I being the old lady with her regular scratched record? (she
laughed again)"


From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Oct 14 14:41:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Modern life - Meditation
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In a message dated 10/14/00 11:04:48 AM Central Daylight Time, 
shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< This was a place hardly anyone
spoke, as she was ill. I had to stay quiet. Sit in a chair, and
behave like a statue. It was the decent/appropriate way to
behave. Casually she would smile, pat on my cheek, or kiss my
palms. But there were few things which I did not quite experience
anywhere else (till much later)..... lack of motion, absolute
silence, a thick air of serenity/calmness not of strictness but
love/affection/care, even if the number of people in the room was
over 15. >>

Great Horns of SATAN!!

My parents would never have tolerated me being expected to be like that. 
They would have given me the noisiest toy they could find and told me to have 
fun with it and if the old farts didn't like it well that would be too bad 
for them. And I'm 51.

When I went to my Grandparents, I was part of the family, not some goddamned 
knicknack or glorified animated Hummel figurine.

Chuck the Heretic

From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Oct 14 16:20:53 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:20:11 -0700
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Modern life - Meditation
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

Chuck:

You're certainly aware that there are many different
cultures, times, and places where sitting still, quietly,
is considered the highest excellence -- and others where
it's considered repressive and offering no real value.
This applies to both adults as well as children.

A biker dude may not be happy without a drink and a
bar room fight. Another person may need to be in a hang
glider in order to feel like life's really happening.
Others, of a different persuasion, are happy when curled
up with a book, or perhaps sitting in serene, but severe
Zazen meditation. One approach is extroverted; the other
is introverted. Who's right?

Each society, group of people, family, sets their own
standards. Visiting them, we can be courteous or rude,
depending upon our intentions. As simple visitors we might
try to fit in with the status quo of the people or place
we visit, being transparent and blending in with everyone
and everything else.

We may not come, at times, as simple visitors. We may
wish to play "guru" to these other people who don't see
things the way we do, and seek contrast, discord, standing
out rather than blending it, fashioning our actions for
shock-value rather that for displaying the opposite power
of peace and harmony.

While there's nothing that prevents us from doing this,
it's important, I think, that we take care in how and 
when we do so, since we're also assuming responsibility
to see that the course of action caused by our unsettling
effect is seen through to a positive, self-healing, 
beneficial conclusion.

In this case, you're reacting to a description of a
situation that you'd find repressive and adding a bit
of humor. There may be some on the mailing list, though,
that aren't trained in your sense of humor yet, and may
take it the wrong way.

My kids -- Galina, 10 1/2, and Geoffrey, almost 6 -- tend
to be on the noisy side when we go somewhere. Alone,
they're quieter; together, they quickly get into a
two-kid riot. This often means that I end up outside
with them, until their burn off their excess energy.

My thinking is that if a situation calls for quiet, like
around someone sick who is made to feel worse by too
much noise, it's up to the parents to resolve the situation
one way or the other, either taking the children where
they can noisily play or finding a way to engage them in
something they find interesting that involves quieter
activities.

-- Eldon


At 05:41 PM 10/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/14/00 11:04:48 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>shampan@zip.com.au writes:
>
><< This was a place hardly anyone
> spoke, as she was ill. I had to stay quiet. Sit in a chair, and
> behave like a statue. It was the decent/appropriate way to
> behave. Casually she would smile, pat on my cheek, or kiss my
> palms. But there were few things which I did not quite experience
> anywhere else (till much later)..... lack of motion, absolute
> silence, a thick air of serenity/calmness not of strictness but
> love/affection/care, even if the number of people in the room was
> over 15. >>
>
>Great Horns of SATAN!!
>
>My parents would never have tolerated me being expected to be like that. 
>They would have given me the noisiest toy they could find and told me to have 
>fun with it and if the old farts didn't like it well that would be too bad 
>for them. And I'm 51.
>
>When I went to my Grandparents, I was part of the family, not some goddamned 
>knicknack or glorified animated Hummel figurine.
>
>Chuck the Heretic
>


From shampan@zip.com.au Sat Oct 14 17:57:45 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

I think I made the last message too long, I used my own
experience only as an introduction to the referred problem. The
message might have been taken out of context. My mistake.

I am not aware of many cultures of course. My childhood and
teens were spent and educated only in few cities.... Shimla,
Baghdad, Nassiriyah (iraq), Isphahan & Shiraz (Iran), Hong Kong,
London & Northampton, Dhaka and since passing my teens only in
all parts of eastern coast of Australia for the last 12 years.

I was noisey and mischeavious like any other kid on earth. But
only at that spot of my "ill" grandmother's house, I was
compelled to behave unlike myself. When she was in her health I
was far too young to rememer how things were.


From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Oct 14 19:29:00 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Shampan-e-Shindh wrote:
> 
> As our knowledge goes deeper into the molecular structures of our
> body, and at certain times soon, we might appear to be a body of
> complex chemical reactions only. All the feelings, thoughts,
> spirituality ... might appear to be nothing but result of some
> definite, particualr, detectable chemical's action and reaction.

What is spirituality?

> quantam physics, psychology, automotive engineering, or even
> cooking.. all our knowledge can turn upside down any time with a
> new info .. any time, about anything.

Has that ever happened before? When?

> There are always things we do not know. Another problem is, in
> most spiritual researches, as soon as we find a physical
> explanation for a psychological feeling, we tend to not treat it
> as something spiritual. Spiritual always does not have to be
> un-explainable by other means. Most of the time it is so, due to
> our lack of wide mass practice. But should another field of
> science explain why some mental reaction occurs chemically.. I
> hope we do not regard it less vital.

But let's hope that we regard it as less mysterious.

Bart Lidofsky

From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 03:40:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Modern life - Meditation
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Shampan-e-Shindh  wrote:
> I think meditation is becoming more and more a necessity for our
> today's life. We are all above the age of 20 I would presume on
> this list.
> 
> I noticed something amongst youngsters. They spend lesser and
> lesser time at any place where they are supposed be "motionless".
> I did not grow up all that long ago. But when I was young boy, I
> had to play that role at various occassions. For example, to
> visit my grandma once a week. This was a place hardly anyone
> spoke, as she was ill. I had to stay quiet. Sit in a chair, and
....

I liked your critique of modern life Shampan and had a comment to add 
to it....

It's probably normal for us older peopel to critique young people as 
they generally don't follow the same pattern we did , just as our 
elders probabaly looked down at us...

I do believe though that life is getting more regimented in terms of 
entertainment... Entertainment is a major industry because of the 
leisure time we have... Consider though the differences between going 
to a movie nowadays and earlier... In earlier times you would buy a 
ticket and spend as much time as you wanted watching features... this 
was based on your time....there were not twenty screens to a theatre, 
only one screen... it was more leisurely. Nowadays you buy a ticket 
for a certain time frame and that's it... you miss the show that's 
it... so its more regimented that way.

Amusement parks have I think figured out the amount of time they want 
people on rides... about five minutes...

Restaurants expect people to eat in fifteen minutes. 

Then there's what are called "time shares" for two weeks and so on.

So life seems to be more frenetic and less leisurely and peopel are 
therefore less relaxed.

All this relates back to meditation and the style of life we lead...

- Art


999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 03:59:08 2000
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Subject: Re: The old ways still work...
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Bart Lidofsky  wrote:
> arthra999@y... wrote:
> > What I dislike are those who are merchandizing truths that should 
be
> > available to all ... 
> 
> That's what libraries are for.
> 
> > The other concern I have is that you have an elite forming who
can 
afford 
> > to take lesons or purchase the books leaving out those who are 
just as 
> > worthy... 
> 
> Those who are truly worthy don't need the lessons and books, at 
least
> those which are not readily available. Or would be willing to go 
through
> the extra trouble rather than expect to sit on their posteriors and 
have
> someone hand it to them on a silver platter.
> 
> Bart Lidofsky


I sense Bart that you would be willing to go to the extra trouble
to seek the truth and would not expect someone to give it to you on a 
silver platter, and that's very commendable.

I guess I would like to find ways to offer things to be people in
this 
age that would be available to as many as possible.

The past year I've taught Yoga classes at a community center at no 
charge. My thesis has been that offering Yoga instruction to as many 
peopel as possible is a good thing. We had an anniversary
celebration 
of one year of free classes yesterday and I would estimate about
forty 
people showed up. We exlored Shiatzu message as well as
Accupressure, 
practise of saying mantras. I gave a talk on the subtle body or 
psychic anatomy... A TAi Chi instructor present agreed with me about 
not charging for his instruction as well and does all his work pro 
bono. Every thing was free. I happen to know that a lot of the peopel 
are on fixed incomes and would normally not be able to attend had 
there been fees attached. I think it's worthwhile to find ways to 
reach more people. It kind of fits in with the Bodhisattwa ideal to 
spread enlightenment with as many as possible while we are alive.

- Art



999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From KArc@compuserve.com Sun Oct 15 05:06:14 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 08:05:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World: Teaching Materials for Esoteric Buddhism
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Joleen -- Thank you -- very kind of you -- I'm also happy to have "your"
contact info for materials. Love, Kat=20

From shampan@zip.com.au Sun Oct 15 06:41:19 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

Art wrote:-
"I liked your critique of modern life Shampan and had a comment
to add
to it....

It's probably normal for us older peopel to critique young people
as
they generally don't follow the same pattern we did , just as our

elders probabaly looked down at us..."

It was not so much as "critique", there is an echo of "wrong"
somewhere, another person was upset perhaps for that reason. Here
is my explanation:-

I do not believe, my path or your path is necessarily better,
there are things in the youth today I admire.. there are things
we had they are not familiar with.

Not a question of imposing our appreciating things on them. And
it is not a difference of "age" or young and old, or era. Just
circumstances.

One could be 80 today who has never had the opportunity to sit by
the sea alone and capture all the beauty in the moonlight. There
are people who never had a chance, if you have spent a few years
in OZ, you can hardly avoid it. On the other hand an Aussie,
could never imagine what it is like to walk through a street in
Woodgreen in London/Hong Kong/Calcutta, really chaotic yet
charming in their own ways.

Not that all those who have not tasted the other side, would have
loved it, but some might, some might not. My grief (or point of
the discussion) is the opportunity to taste it thoroughly and
really see any reason to appreciate .. then he can throw the idea
in the rubbish-bin. That is the problem with youngsters, many
things have been thrown in the rubbish bin by their 2 previous
generations, that they might like, and NEED. But obsolete today.

When I was working with the radio station, there were a lot of
young boys who are in heavy metal. And they all hated classical.
I spent a lot of time with them talking, discussing on various
matters. Once I discussed with them about the charms of their
music. They were surprised. And I was surprised, they "really
understood" music. I tried opera with them few times, they made
some fascinating remarks, like "it's a bit too stiff", "why don't
they sing with a bit more playfulness, why so fixed? ".. etc. I
went one step higher... and explained..."Some critics/experts
might not agree, but that stiffness only started in the late
1940's", then played some of the oldest recordings that exist
today... they liked the voices, they loved the expressionism. Now
some of them getting into orchestral trickery.. which is beyond
my knowledge, as I collect more on the basis of vocal delicacy, I
have little grammar knowledge of music... they have beaten me,
and I am so glad they did, I wish today's youngsters get that
opportunity to taste many things, and some of them will
appreciate, some won't, but certain things they are being
deprived of, which can cause a serious unbalance. And not only
youngsters, many who are twice my age as well..

Things your father liked, even if you do not like, keep some or
your son might yearn for it, and never find it.

LOVE FOR ALL
GREAT AND SMALL
EQUALLY AND IMPARTIAL
-Sham


From shampan@zip.com.au Sun Oct 15 07:04:02 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

--------------8863388F4BAB84B672620DB9
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Bart Lidofsky wrote:

> Shampan-e-Shindh wrote:
> >
> > As our knowledge goes deeper into the molecular structures of
> our
> > body, and at certain times soon, we might appear to be a body
> of
> > complex chemical reactions only. All the feelings, thoughts,
> > spirituality ... might appear to be nothing but result of
> some
> > definite, particualr, detectable chemical's action and
> reaction.
>
> What is spirituality?

You tell me Sir..:)) We all have our own defintions.

>
>
> > quantam physics, psychology, automotive engineering, or even
> > cooking.. all our knowledge can turn upside down any time
> with a
> > new info .. any time, about anything.
>
> Has that ever happened before? When?

Now that is a strange question, is this sarcasm?..:)
One of the most recent major break-through's, Berzillius's
theory of "vital force" (organic compound could not be created
from inorganic compounds) proven wrong I think in about 200 years
or so, cannot remember now.

Another old one in a different aspect, Caesar once said "I have
no doubt such a creator might exist as Jesus describes, but would
never choose one of the Jews to be the Massiah"


>
>
> > There are always things we do not know. Another problem is,
> in
> > most spiritual researches, as soon as we find a physical
> > explanation for a psychological feeling, we tend to not treat
> it
> > as something spiritual. Spiritual always does not have to be
> > un-explainable by other means. Most of the time it is so, due
> to
> > our lack of wide mass practice. But should another field of
> > science explain why some mental reaction occurs chemically..
> I
> > hope we do not regard it less vital.
>
> But let's hope that we regard it as less mysterious.

What is mysterious? Things we know that happen and cannot
explain, some might even call it "miracle".

--------------8863388F4BAB84B672620DB9
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Bart Lidofsky wrote:

Shampan-e-Shindh wrote:

>

> As our knowledge goes deeper into the molecular structures of
our

> body, and at certain times soon, we might appear to be a body
of

> complex chemical reactions only. All the feelings, thoughts,

> spirituality ... might appear to be nothing but result of some

> definite, particualr, detectable chemical's action and reaction.

      What is spirituality?

You tell me Sir..:)) We all have our own defintions.

 

> quantam physics, psychology, automotive engineering, or even

> cooking.. all our knowledge can turn upside down any time with
a

> new info .. any time, about anything.

      Has that ever happened before? When?

Now that is a strange question, is this sarcasm?..:)

One of  the most recent major break-through's, Berzillius's theory
of "vital force" (organic compound could not be created from inorganic
compounds) proven wrong I think in about 200 years or so, cannot remember
now.

Another old one in a different aspect, Caesar once said "I have no doubt
such a creator might exist as Jesus describes, but would never choose one
of the Jews to be the Massiah"

 

 

> There are always things we do not know. Another problem is, in

> most spiritual researches, as soon as we find a physical

> explanation for a psychological feeling, we tend to not treat
it

> as something spiritual. Spiritual always does not have to be

> un-explainable by other means. Most of the time it is so, due
to

> our lack of wide mass practice. But should another field of

> science explain why some mental reaction occurs chemically..
I

> hope we do not regard it less vital.

      But let's hope that we regard it
as less mysterious.

What is mysterious? Things we know that happen and cannot explain, some
might even call it "miracle".

--------------8863388F4BAB84B672620DB9--

From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Oct 15 08:22:16 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 11:22:05 EDT
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In a message dated 10/14/00 7:07:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
eldon@theosophy.com writes:

<< My thinking is that if a situation calls for quiet, like
around someone sick who is made to feel worse by too
much noise, it's up to the parents to resolve the situation
one way or the other, either taking the children where
they can noisily play or finding a way to engage them in
something they find interesting that involves quieter
activities.

-- Eldon >>
Eldon, my friend,

My parents had the somewhat rational point of view that I would be an adult 
far longer than I would be a child so I was expected to learn adult skills, 
such as holding a conversation, at an early age. Now, admittedly, that may 
have been a problem for some adult type folks, but as I have grown older, I 
see how it benefited me to learn to handle myself as an independent person 
from little on and yes, I realize there are different cultures and I probably 
overreacted because it hit me right in the gut when I read the post and I 
opened fire.

Perhaps because I've spent the last week doing a whole lot of thinking about 
my childhood, how I became the man I am and the reasoning my parents must 
have employed to make me what I am that I felt an unmitigated horror when I 
read the post. It just screamed "CHILD ABUSE!!!" at me and I know it would 
have to my parents as well.

Chuck the calmed down Heretic

From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Oct 15 10:03:14 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:
> I sense Bart that you would be willing to go to the extra trouble
> to seek the truth and would not expect someone to give it to you on a
> silver platter, and that's very commendable.
> 
> I guess I would like to find ways to offer things to be people in
> this
> age that would be available to as many as possible.

Which means that those who believe this and have the money should
support those who don't have the money.

> The past year I've taught Yoga classes at a community center at no
> charge. My thesis has been that offering Yoga instruction to as many
> peopel as possible is a good thing. We had an anniversary
> celebration
> of one year of free classes yesterday and I would estimate about
> forty
> people showed up. We exlored Shiatzu message as well as
> Accupressure,
> practise of saying mantras. I gave a talk on the subtle body or
> psychic anatomy... A TAi Chi instructor present agreed with me about
> not charging for his instruction as well and does all his work pro
> bono. 

At the New York Theosophical Society, most of the teachers, including
myself, turn down any funds. There are some, however, who need the
funds. For many years, the Lodge charged little or nothing for classes.
And it turned out that, in the culture of the United States, or New York
at least, there was a rather strange and unexpected result, based on a
principle that nobody had considered.

If there are two courses on Kabballah, for example, one taught by
Solomon David, which costs $150 for 6 sessions, and another taught by
David Solomon, which costs $25 for 6 sessions, with no other
information, people in our culture will assume the more expensive course
is the superior one. The ones who will attend the less expensive one
will be largely of those for whom money is the primary object. Students
would commonly say, "I missed a session. Can I have a $4 refund?" The
Lodge changed their policy, and, except for courses offered free of
charge, we charged a competitive amount for our classes, and gave
scholarships to those who could not afford the fee. Almost nobody asked
for a scholarship, and class registration went up, with people attending
the courses who were more interested in learning than they were in
saving a dollar or two.

Bart Lidofsky

From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Oct 15 10:34:05 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Mr. Bart Lidofsky's questions..:))
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Shampan-e-Shindh wrote:
> Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> 
> > Shampan-e-Shindh wrote:
> > >
> > > As our knowledge goes deeper into the molecular structures of our
> > > body, and at certain times soon, we might appear to be a body of
> > > complex chemical reactions only. All the feelings, thoughts,
> > > spirituality ... might appear to be nothing but result of some
> > > definite, particualr, detectable chemical's action and reaction.
> >
> > What is spirituality?
> 
> You tell me Sir..:)) We all have our own defintions.

Exactly. You used the term; how am I supposed to know what your talking
about if you don't define your terms? Far too often, in theosophical
topics (note the small "t"), people throw around ill-defined
terminology, making statements which sound deep on the surface, but when
semantically analyzed, are meaningless. I am willing to believe that the
person who makes the statement knows what he or she is trying to say,
but in order for communication to work, not only must the statement be
made, but it must also be understood.

> > > quantam physics, psychology, automotive engineering, or even
> > > cooking.. all our knowledge can turn upside down any time with a
> > > new info .. any time, about anything.
> >
> > Has that ever happened before? When?
> 
> Now that is a strange question, is this sarcasm?..:)
> One of the most recent major break-through's, Berzillius's theory of
> "vital force" (organic compound could not be created from inorganic
> compounds) proven wrong I think in about 200 years or so, cannot
> remember now.

I did not recall Berzillius' theory, and was unable to find out
anything about it in a web search (although I was able to find theories
of "vital force" in reference to homeopathy and religion). But note that
any theory that says that something "cannot be done", in general, can
only be proven for currently known methods. Also, when examined, when a
theory is said to state that something "cannot be done" is a lot more
specific. For example, the current truism that something moving a
sub-light speed cannot be made to move faster than the speed of light,
is actually a statement that to ACCELERATE an object TO the speed of
light requires an infinite amount of energy. 

In addition, fools have a habit of creating philosophy based on known
science (things like "Social Darwinism", or the mechanistic view of the
Universe common in H. P. Blavatsky's time). For those fools, a new
scientific theory can turn their world "upside-down". But for
scientists, these new theories generally do not disprove the old theory,
but turn the old theory into a special case of a more general theory. 

> Another old one in a different aspect, Caesar once said "I have no
> doubt such a creator might exist as Jesus describes, but would never
> choose one of the Jews to be the Massiah"

Which Caesar, and when?

> What is mysterious? Things we know that happen and cannot explain,
> some might even call it "miracle".

And then think that this explains it all.

Bart Lidofsky

From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Oct 15 20:27:24 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:26:29 -0700
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Subject: Re: Looking for the recent book on "Occult Chemistry"
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

Charles:

Sorry about the delay in my reply. I'm not sure myself
where to point you, but will post your message on the
theos-talk and theos-l mailing lists to see if someone
there has any information that can help you. Perhaps
someone who is actively studying Leadbeater's writings
and keeping up on science has the information that you
want. I'm not much help, since I've been focusing
on other theosophical writings.

-- Eldon Tucker

At 02:13 PM 9/17/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Somewhere I read a review of the recent (1982?) book by a modern scientist comparing the finding of Occult Chemistry with modern particle physics theory. Can you help me locate the title or author? I looked thru your listings of articles and didn't see it. A Waldorf high school science teacher would like to see the modern book. PLEASE REPLY TO jimkotz@mail.com. Thanks


From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Oct 15 20:31:21 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:30:26 -0700
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

Fred:

I don't have any information, but will post your request
to the theos-talk mailing list. Perhaps someone there
has information. If so, they should both post it to the
list and "cc:" you, since you're not subscribed.

Best wishes,

-- Eldon Tucker

>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:04:39 -0400
>From: Fred Turim 
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>To: review@theosophy.com
>Subject: Theosophical painter
>
>Do have any information about a French painter named Sarluis? He was a
>Theosophist. I own a large painting of his and am interested in finding
>out more about him. Thanks. Fred Turim 


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Sun Oct 15 20:58:50 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Theos-World: book "Occult Chemistry"
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi,

"Occult Chemistry" can be found at Kessinger Publishing. They reprint rare
"out-of-print" books and have tons of stuff on theosophical, rosicrucian,
fransiscan, alchemy, freemasonry, etc. Many rare books including the rare
**The Secret Doctrine, VOLUME THREE*** They have a website you can order
directly from:

http://www.kessinger-publishing.com/

Todd 



At 08:26 PM 15/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Charles:
>
>Sorry about the delay in my reply. I'm not sure myself
>where to point you, but will post your message on the
>theos-talk and theos-l mailing lists to see if someone
>there has any information that can help you. Perhaps
>someone who is actively studying Leadbeater's writings
>and keeping up on science has the information that you
>want. I'm not much help, since I've been focusing
>on other theosophical writings.
>
>-- Eldon Tucker
>
>At 02:13 PM 9/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Somewhere I read a review of the recent (1982?) book by a modern
scientist comparing the finding of Occult Chemistry with modern particle
physics theory. Can you help me locate the title or author? I looked thru
your listings of articles and didn't see it. A Waldorf high school science
teacher would like to see the modern book. PLEASE REPLY TO
jimkotz@mail.com. Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>


From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Oct 15 21:04:37 2000
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Subject: looking for someone
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

I've received a request from Etzion Becker.

He's looking for someone named Mildred Kyle, who was a head, he
says, of a theosophical group in the United States. He says that
she was a devoted disciple of Avatar Meher Baba, and active during
the fifties and the sixties, maybe even before that. If anyone
knows of her, they should write him directly at:

etzionba@inter.net.il

-- Eldon Tucker


From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sun Oct 15 21:39:43 2000
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From: compiler@wisdomworld.org

In the past seven days these two series of articles from
THEOSOPHY magazine have been finished:

(1) Cycles of Psychism (10-part series)
(2) A Study in Prefaces (3-part series)

And these two series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine
have taken their place to be scanned, proofread, and posted
in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles
are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted
as they are done: 

(1) The "Three Objects" of the Theosophical Movement (7-part grouping)
(2) The Mystery of Individuality (6-part series)

Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 18 articles
added in the past seven days were all added to the "Additional"
page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings
of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles
that are being worked on at all times.

All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories
geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and
philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more
experienced students at all levels -- including the very
scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand
and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being
for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with
much profound and informative Theosophical information
that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be
"Supplementary" reading and study material for participants
of various Theosophical study and discussion groups,
classes and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance,
here on theos-talk.

As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful.

Compiler
------- 

The "Additional Categories of Articles" page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

The "Main Page":
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------



From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Oct 15 21:41:38 2000
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Subject: Fwd: Visitations From the Afterlife TS
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

Here's a message that I recently got that might
be of interest to some on the theos-talk list.

-- Eldon 

>Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
>From: lee lawson 
>Subject: Visitations From the Afterlife TS
>To: eldon@theosophy.com
>
>Dear Los Angeles Members,
>
> As a fellow Theosophical Society member,I am
>writing to tell you about my new book:
>
> 
> Visitations From the Afterlife /
> True Stories of Love and Healing
>
> HarperCollins Publisher
> 
> Foreword by Clarissa Pinkola Estes 
> (author of Women Who Run With the Wolves)
>
> Endorsements from Larry Dossey, June Singer,
>Robert Johnson, Jeanne Achterberg and Paula Reeves
>
> The book is about spontaneously experiencing the
>presence of a loved one who has died and the healing
>and transformation that so often follows. It offers a
>compelling picture of the ongoing love and caring that
>continues beyond death.
>
> Illuminating the text are ninety first-person
>stories from around the world, by people from
>everywalk of life and every belief system.
>
> Whether or not you have had a visitation yourself,
>you will find that these stories bring hope to the
>grieving heart and healing to the spirit. "Visitations
>>>From the Afterlife" is an exploration of the treasured
>experiences of reunion that have been so deeply woven
>into my own life and work, experiences which now
>appear to be surprisingly universal.
>
> Over two hundred million Americans (NY Times Poll/
>April,2000) believe in a personal afterife and it has
>been estimated that millions the world over may have
>had this life altering experience. People are just now
>beginning to speak openly of what was once held in
>secret.
>
> I hope that "Visitations From the Afterlife" will
>become an inspiring healing tool in your own life and
>work. 
>
> Please see my website:
>
> www.leelawson.com
>
>for more information, sample stories, endorsements, an
>excerpt from the foreword, links to many online
>booksellers and more. Please contact me if I may be of
>service to you.
>
>With best wishes,
> Lee 
>
> Ms.Lee Lawson
>Lee@LeeLawson.com
>www.leelawson.com
>805-466-7772 phone and FAX
>630 Quintana Rd.,#326
>Morro Bay, CA 93442 USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/ 


From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 23:18:35 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: The old ways still work...
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com


> At the New York Theosophical Society, most of the teachers, 
including
> myself, turn down any funds. There are some, however, who need the
> funds. For many years, the Lodge charged little or nothing for 
classes.
> And it turned out that, in the culture of the United States, or New 
York
> at least, there was a rather strange and unexpected result, based
on 
a
> principle that nobody had considered.
> 
> If there are two courses on Kabballah, for example, one taught by
> Solomon David, which costs $150 for 6 sessions, and another taught 
by
> David Solomon, which costs $25 for 6 sessions, with no other
> information, people in our culture will assume the more expensive 
course
> is the superior one. The ones who will attend the less expensive one
> will be largely of those for whom money is the primary object. 
Students
> would commonly say, "I missed a session. Can I have a $4 refund?" 
The
> Lodge changed their policy, and, except for courses offered free of
> charge, we charged a competitive amount for our classes, and gave
> scholarships to those who could not afford the fee. Almost nobody 
asked
> for a scholarship, and class registration went up, with people 
attending
> the courses who were more interested in learning than they were in
> saving a dollar or two.
> 
> Bart Lidofsky


I think Bart this is a sad commentary on American culture... I don't 
disagree with your view. I've seen Mental Health professionals and 
social workers rationalize the same way that since our culture values 
money over all that we the professionals should do the same... The
sad 
result is a futile attempt to place a monetary value on truth and it 
never really works out to any ones satisfaction... The professionals 
become mercenaries. As in the Oath of Hippocrates is the provision 
that physicians should treat anyone regardless of their economic
means 
turns into modern American fee scales and HMO's... with the sad
result 
that millions are not covered by insurance and many peoples needs are 
unmet as in the case of the Mental Health movement which started on a 
different premise years ago. I think we can do better than standard 
American cultural values of monetary value.

We can offer truth to anyone without asking for coin. 

- Art


999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 23:45:23 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Old and youth? not the issue
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com


> Not that all those who have not tasted the other side, would have
> loved it, but some might, some might not. My grief (or point of
> the discussion) is the opportunity to taste it thoroughly and
> really see any reason to appreciate .. then he can throw the idea
> in the rubbish-bin. ...I wish today's youngsters get that
> opportunity to taste many things, and some of them will
> appreciate, some won't, but certain things they are being
> deprived of, which can cause a serious unbalance. And not only
> youngsters, many who are twice my age as well..
> 
> Things your father liked, even if you do not like, keep some or
> your son might yearn for it, and never find it.
> 
> LOVE FOR ALL
> GREAT AND SMALL
> EQUALLY AND IMPARTIAL
> -Sham

The difference in the pace of life was vividly brought home to me
when 
I went to the archives of the local public library to search for an 
orbituary for my great grandfather who died in 1907 at the request of 
my father. The pages were extremely yellowed and crumbly ...very 
cheap news paper indeed...but I noticed that they had articles on the 
comings and goings of people in our small town...There's be an
article 
on someone arriving from Los Angeles or someone travelling out of 
state... An article on who was the guest of whom and what parties
were 
going on... This was an era where time moved extremely slowly by our 
current standards and moved at an extremely leisurely pace. Likely 
people lived around the sunrise and sunset or read by gaslight. Such
a 
time had space in it...and undoubtedly quiet as well. Anyway, that 
world is forever past but it does illustrate the tremendous pace of 
life we live in today as well as the complexities. I wonder often how 
much stress of modern life plays on our mental and physical bodies. 
What impact does modern society have on our values? And as 
theosophists what does this mean to us?

- Art


999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 16 06:49:33 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: How best to share Theosophy?
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

I had another topic in mind about theosophy as a movement and wanted 
to broach it with this e community:

Are there formalized ways of sharing theosophy that impede our 
teaching it?

Are their methods that could be employed that would reach more people?


What are the strengths of the theosophical society and how can we
best 
express them?

- 


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 16 08:50:28 2000
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To: , "Esoteric Science" , 
Subject: The Scientific Evidence For Past Lives
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:52:54 -0700
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A popular book is now available with the story and findings of Ian Stevenso=
n's research concerning the scientific evidence for past lives. It is call=
ed OLD SOULS and is by Tom Shroder. It came out in 1999 published by Simon=
and Schuster. This Dr. Stevenson's work is partly resposible for the esta=
blishment of The Society of Scientific Exploration. He is a well-respected=
scientist and physcian. The journal of the society is one of the few, if =
not the only, refereed scientific journals devoted to trying to understand =
scientific anomalies. Their web page is:

www.ScientificExploration.org=20

I highly recommend the journal and the society. Their next meeting within =
the United States will be in La Jolla, California this June. Please consid=
er coming to the meeting and joining this society. I have been to about si=
x annual meetings and they have all been excellant, both the people and the=
information.

Gene

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0374E.79447440
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A popular book is now available with the s=
tory and=20
findings of Ian Stevenson's research concerning the scientific evidenc=
e for=20
past lives.  It is called OLD SOULS and is by Tom Shroder.  It ca=
me=20
out in 1999 published by Simon and Schuster.  This Dr.=20
Stevenson's work is partly resposible for the establishment of The Soc=
iety=20
of Scientific Exploration.  He is a well-respected scientist and=20
physcian.  The journal of the society is one of the few, if not t=
he=20
only, refereed scientific journals devoted to trying to understand scientif=
ic=20
anomalies.  Their web page is:


 


www.ScientificExploration.org=
=20



 


I highly recommend the journal and the=20
society.  Their next meeting within the United States will be in La Jo=
lla,=20
California this June.  Please consider coming to the meeting and joini=
ng=20
this society.  I have been to about six annual meetings and they have =
all=20
been excellant, both the people and the information.


 


Gene


------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0374E.79447440--

From lloltlit@schoolemail.com Mon Oct 16 11:06:52 2000
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From: Estrella 

Paul:

> Had seen auras very occasionally under
> certain conditions, never consistently or vividly, until spring 1995,
on a
> trip to California to speak on my books to the Oakland TS. Quite
suddenly
> the last day there it was as if someone flipped a switch and I was
seeing
> extremely vivid auras around people all the time. This lasted not for

> days or months but years, although the effect gradually wore off.
>

Jerry:


> The real problem with waiting for the time to be ripe, is that we
never know
> when that time is going to be. If we are unprepared, a psychological
crisis
> often results. But trying to force kundalini or siddhas has problems
too. I
> suspect that the best approach for Theosophists is to study up on
kundalini
> and occult phenomena, and then if it comes to you, you will be able to

> understand it, to put it into some kind of worldview besides "I must
be
> going nuts." The approach that I took myself years ago is to try a
gentle
> forcing, and this has worked for me pretty well over the years. Using
> Kundalini Yoga, for example, I was able to increase my body
temperature by 5
> degrees (called "psychic heat") whereas a well-trained yogi can get up
to 15
> and even 20 degrees.
>
Wow!! Interesting subject, Paul, do you think you can tell us more of
your experience?? I was investigating a certain subject that experienced
gradual
auric vision, for some years. I do not know what is happening here.

Paul, Jerry, how is it possible that for some pepole (I have found
this to be very powerful on teens) experience "sudden" bursts of auric
visions
or faculties and that, and for others, the "gradual" experience that you
tell works better??
Or it could work better a "combination" of both? I founded with my
little research, that the gradual developement of a power, slowly, not
forcing it
but slow, from time to time, almost as a hobby, that the subject of my
research developed a somewhat permanent hability,
like, the guy knows "from inside" from the very sudden experimented
"burst", that the power "is" permanent, although he doesn't sees it all
the time,
only with some concentration, but from time to time he experiments
sudden "visions" and gradually are more powerful and vivid , normally
he doesn't
see things, but when concentration is around, he can control the flow,
but occasionaly he sees it when he is not normally finding it.

Why is this? I really do not understand it. which will be the best
way? gradually and slowly as you said? what happens with sudden bursts
as
Paul's? It is less permanent, it gets lost? by the way , this subject
has no idea of kundalini yoga, only some basic hatha yoga experience.
some
books, that's all. between we know we are trying to understand what
happens, is like when spiderman had is powers the first time, he.

What has to deal Kundalini with this factors?? I knew that kundalini
power did make the individual get the sudden "flowering" of the siddhis
or
psychic habilities. he tried as many teens to awaken it once. Am I
wrong?

If you two can tell me more on the subject, i will be delighted,
that would be very good on my small research.

Estrella




From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Mon Oct 16 16:08:24 2000
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Subject: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: ernesto 


Hello Group:

According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White Lodge
was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the perfection of
a Buddha. But, I don=B4t know if HPB said something about the "grade" of
the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?

Shouldn=B4t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said in the
Bible, as an Avatara? But it means, at least as I understand, that he
can=B4t be considered as Leadbeater considered him (a human being with the
grade of Boddhisatva). If the Christ is an Avatara, he is a being
higher than all human beings -including the Buddha-. Higher, also, than
angels and archangels, as St. Paul says somewhere. The first being, in
the scale of grades (again as St. Paul seems to say).

Is it really so? What did HPB said about that? Who where, in
accordance to her (not to Leadbeater), the Father, the Christ and the
Holy Spirit?

Following with the matter of the Christ, if we know the invariability of
the law of karma and the certainty of the reincarnation, how do we have
to understand that an Avatara -or may be merely an Adept, if the Christ
was that- id go to die in the Cross. It seems to me very simplist, and
little real, the explanation that the Christ desired to merely represent
the process of iniciation. Why, then, to make this process real in
himself untill the death in a Cross? That is what such an explanation
can=B4t really explain. Instead of that, the existence of a cosmogonical
or historical reason (in the "sacred history" or esoteric history) seems
to be quite more capable to guive an explanation.

I would like to hear your reflections about these matters, because I
don=B4t have these things clear.

Friendly,

David C.


From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 16 17:11:14 2000
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, ernesto  wrote:
>=20
> Hello Group:
>=20
> According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White=20
Lodge
> was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the
perfection=20
of
> a Buddha. But, I don=B4t know if HPB said something about the
"grade"=20
of
> the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?
>=20
> Shouldn=B4t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said
in=20
the
> Bible, as an Avatara?=20=20

I was interested in David's remarks about Christ as an Avatar...I am=20
reminded of Annie Besant's book Avataras that is no longer in print.=20
She goes through the Avataras of Vishnu which she identifies withthe=20
evolution of humanity... In Leadbeater's view of the appearance of=20
Lord Maitreyya he seems to identify Maitreya with the Christ at the=20
Wesak festival in the hidden Himalayan valley... Besant says each
race=20
has its own Teacher or Bodhisattwa the learned , full of wisdom and=20
truth. The problem may be in having more systems than one to explain=20
these things, so on one hand you have Avataras in the Vaishnavite=20
Hindu model in which the promise is made that when darkness is great=20
and man cries out for enlightenment, an Avatar is manifested. To me=20
the Christ would meet this criteria. Again, if we take the concept of=20
teh Bodhisattwa which is oin Mahayana Buddhism the concept of a pure=20
being postponing their own final liberation from birth and death, the=20
Christ could fit this model as well. To an extend a Bodhisattwa and
an=20
Avatar would be similar but they are also distinct in some ways
coming=20
from different contextual views. There is also the view of the=20
Anthroposophists who would place the Christ in their own contextual=20
framework and what that means. I think independent investigation and=20
study are called for here and that there should be no dogmatic=20
requirements involved in this question.

I can see the beautiful metaphors and applications to occult truths=20
that the Christ story involves. Lately I've been interested in=20
considering the Ahmaddiyah view that Christ somehow survived the=20
crucifixion experience and was able to travel to the lost sheep or=20
tribes in the east.=20

- Art




888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


From kellogg@west.net Mon Oct 16 19:03:53 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
References: <8sg5br+ulsb@eGroups.com>
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From: Spencer 

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There is a book published by Concord Grove Press, The Mystery of
theAvatar,that deals with the subject of avatars and bodhisattvas.

ssk

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:

> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, ernesto  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Group:
> >
> > According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White
> Lodge
> > was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the
> perfection
> of
> > a Buddha. But, I don´t know if HPB said something about the
> "grade"
> of
> > the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?
> >
> > Shouldn´t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said
> in
> the
> > Bible, as an Avatara?
>
> I was interested in David's remarks about Christ as an Avatar...I am
> reminded of Annie Besant's book Avataras that is no longer in print.
> She goes through the Avataras of Vishnu which she identifies withthe
> evolution of humanity... In Leadbeater's view of the appearance of
> Lord Maitreyya he seems to identify Maitreya with the Christ at the
> Wesak festival in the hidden Himalayan valley... Besant says each
> race
> has its own Teacher or Bodhisattwa the learned , full of wisdom and
> truth. The problem may be in having more systems than one to explain
> these things, so on one hand you have Avataras in the Vaishnavite
> Hindu model in which the promise is made that when darkness is great
> and man cries out for enlightenment, an Avatar is manifested. To me
> the Christ would meet this criteria. Again, if we take the concept of
> teh Bodhisattwa which is oin Mahayana Buddhism the concept of a pure
> being postponing their own final liberation from birth and death, the
> Christ could fit this model as well. To an extend a Bodhisattwa and
> an
> Avatar would be similar but they are also distinct in some ways
> coming
> from different contextual views. There is also the view of the
> Anthroposophists who would place the Christ in their own contextual
> framework and what that means. I think independent investigation and
> study are called for here and that there should be no dogmatic
> requirements involved in this question.
>
> I can see the beautiful metaphors and applications to occult truths
> that the Christ story involves. Lately I've been interested in
> considering the Ahmaddiyah view that Christ somehow survived the
> crucifixion experience and was able to travel to the lost sheep or
> tribes in the east.
>
> - Art
>
> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
>

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There is a book published by Concord Grove Press, The Mystery of theAvatar,that
deals with the subject of avatars and bodhisattvas.

ssk

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, ernesto <ernesto@b...>
wrote:

>

> Hello Group:

>

> According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White

Lodge

> was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the

perfection

of

> a Buddha.  But, I don´t know if HPB said something about
the

"grade"

of

> the Christ.  Did she do it?  What did she said?

>

> Shouldn´t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he
said

in

the

> Bible, as an Avatara?

I was interested in David's remarks about Christ as an Avatar...I am

reminded of Annie Besant's book Avataras that is no longer in print.

She goes through the Avataras of Vishnu which she identifies withthe

evolution of humanity... In Leadbeater's view of the appearance of

Lord Maitreyya he seems to identify Maitreya with the Christ at the

Wesak festival in the hidden Himalayan valley... Besant says each

race

has its own Teacher or Bodhisattwa the learned , full of wisdom and

truth.  The problem may be in having more systems than one to
explain

these things, so on one hand you  have Avataras in the Vaishnavite

Hindu model in which the promise is made that when darkness is great

and man cries out for enlightenment, an Avatar is manifested. To me

the Christ would meet this criteria. Again, if we take the concept
of

teh Bodhisattwa which is oin Mahayana Buddhism the concept of a pure

being postponing their own final liberation from birth and death, the

Christ could fit this model as well. To an extend a Bodhisattwa and

an

Avatar would be similar but they are also distinct in some ways

coming

from different contextual views.  There is also the view of the

Anthroposophists who would place the Christ in their own contextual

framework and what that means. I think independent investigation and

study are called for here and that there should be no dogmatic

requirements involved in this question.

I can see the beautiful metaphors and applications to occult truths

that the Christ story involves. Lately I've been interested in

considering the Ahmaddiyah view that Christ somehow survived the

crucifixion experience and was able to travel to the lost sheep or

tribes in the east.

- Art

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

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From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Mon Oct 16 19:24:03 2000
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From: ernesto 



arthra999@yahoo.com escribi=F3:


> Lately I've been interested in
> considering the Ahmaddiyah view that Christ somehow survived the
> crucifixion experience and was able to travel to the lost sheep or
> tribes in the east.
>

Could you please guive us more details about Ahmaddiyah and this point of
view. I have not heard about him. When did he live? Who he was?

Thanks,


David



From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Mon Oct 16 23:31:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:38:23 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hello,
> 
>> According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White 
>Lodge
>> was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the
>perfection 
>of
>> a Buddha. But, I don´t know if HPB said something about the
>"grade" 
>of
>> the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?
>> 
>> Shouldn´t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said
>in 
>the
>> Bible, as an Avatara? 

For interest's sake:
Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th degree
initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya and the
Buddha both appear at the Wesak festival where the energy from the Buddha
(Will of God) is transferred to Maitreya and blended by Maitryea with the
energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an intermediary
between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the
Christ) and Shamballa.
Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the head of the
Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's have His
name right and expect the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, to return from the
Tushita Heaven. While the Buddha is "more advanced", so to speak, than
Maitreya, He evolved originally along the moon chain, whereas, Maitreya is
an evolutionary product of the earth chain. 
Further, Jesus was a senior initiate (4th degree initiate) who was
overshadowed by Maitreya for the last three years of his life - from the
Baptism to the Crucifixion. As Alice Bailey recounts in "From Bethlehem to
Calvary", the life of Jesus demonstrated (among other things) the five
major initiations for Mankind. The fourth was demonstrated by Jesus in the
"Great Renunciation" on the cross. It was Maitreya who further
demonstrated the fifth - The Ascension - using the body of Jesus, and later
spoke with the disciples saying to "look for the water bearer" (the age of
Aquarius) and that He would return at the end of the Age (foretelling the
return of Maitreya at this time).

Todd 


From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 01:20:58 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 04:20:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear Todd -- Because I am an emotional type -- this info has touches me
very deeply -- I cannot never hear enough of it. Thanks, Kat in Italy

From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 01:23:50 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 04:23:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Because of my longtime study of things/ideas Tibetan and Indian, I too have
been aware of the information about Isa/Jesus' possible "new" life after
the age of 33 in Tibet. And my take was always that he traveled through
the Levant up to Tibet for training from 12 to 30 -- although being who he
was, what need had he to travel -- other than to study his fellow men and
their current ways. Love from Kat in Italy

From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 01:43:53 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 04:43:24 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Re: Kundalini
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

My suggestion about siddhis -- powers -- is this. If you are unprepared
and you "force" such break-throughs, you will experience surges you are
unprepared to handle. I had a friend whose karma was such in the 70's.=20
She is unfortunately not with us in the body currently because she was
unable to adjust to what occurred and ascribed it to former life karma.=20
That's not my business.

I also taught hatha yogi in the '60's...many of my friends in L.A. at the
time were doing drugs, smoking, drinking and ALSO doing kundalini yoga --
we knew nothing of what we were fooling with. BUT we were, as younger
people are today, here for the end of Kali Yuga and the beginning of the
golden age. We were possibly advanced and brought in loving hearts --
however It is necessary for us to know what we are doing to ourselves
because ignorance is no excuse, n'est-ce pas? There were many of my
friends who were having breakdowns and I was able to help them because I
knew a tiny bit -- I had been one of the "hippies" and had walked away from
that lifestyle....but I had learned much and each lifestyle I take on,
teaches me anew. I always felt after the '60's I was finally born,
although at the time in my '30's.

Children have to grow naturally and are (in my quaint lingo) as much aliens
as any outsiders from Venus....so to speak. It is the hormones and chakras
that begin to move and adjust and balance through teenage-hood as well as
throughout one's life depending on how one educates oneself. It is perhaps
necessary to find a True Teacher to learn what to do and what not to do.=20
For instance i was lucky enough to find a teacher who could "see" what was
going on inside this body of "mine". He admonished me strongly -- many
times because I'm a hard case -- to let go hatha yoga. It "held me to the
physical body" you see -- so that I was unable to leave it at night and
move into other spheres as might be possible due to the training I was
undergoing spiritually. it might not be wrong for another being, you see?=
=20
That's why a true teacher is so valuable.

So each of us has a destiny and many of us alive today wish to believe
ourselves advanced. That may be so because we are here now. But there are
many others here also, who (to my way of looking) have just entered the
human kingdom. Sometimes in looking at myself and my failings, I don't
feel so far from the animals myself. So I continue to strive.

i just worry when I hear people discussing how to bring about "powers"
quicker than they might naturally evolve. with love, Kat in Italy

From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Oct 17 05:02:32 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:02:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Drpsionic@aol.com

In a message dated 10/16/00 6:12:04 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
ernesto@bmu.com.pe writes:

<< Shouldn=B4t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said in the
Bible, as an Avatara? >>

I prefer to think of him as a nut who had a good press agent.

Chuck the Heretic

From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 05:14:24 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 06:21:14 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Todd Lorentz 

At 04:23 AM 17/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Because of my longtime study of things/ideas Tibetan and Indian, I too have
>been aware of the information about Isa/Jesus' possible "new" life after
>the age of 33 in Tibet. And my take was always that he traveled through
>the Levant up to Tibet for training from 12 to 30 -- although being who he
>was, what need had he to travel -- other than to study his fellow men and
>their current ways. Love from Kat in Italy

As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
closely with the Christ.

Todd


From malcom@u-n-i.net Tue Oct 17 05:16:24 2000
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To: 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:16:47 -0500
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From: "N.Malcom" 

Where can one find information concerning 
Appolonius of Tyanna ? Nancy
----------
> From: Todd Lorentz 
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
> Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:21 AM
> 
> At 04:23 AM 17/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> >Because of my longtime study of things/ideas Tibetan and Indian, I too
have
> >been aware of the information about Isa/Jesus' possible "new" life after
> >the age of 33 in Tibet. And my take was always that he traveled through
> >the Levant up to Tibet for training from 12 to 30 -- although being who
he
> >was, what need had he to travel -- other than to study his fellow men
and
> >their current ways. Love from Kat in Italy
> 
> As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
> decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
> initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
> initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
> closely with the Christ.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> 

From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 05:40:47 2000
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Subject: Theos-World Re: Appolonius of Tyanna
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Nancy,

At 07:16 AM 17/10/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Where can one find information concerning 
>Appolonius of Tyanna ? Nancy

First, here is a quote from Share International Magazine regarding the
reincarnation of Appolonius:

"Jesus was not born in the year 0 but in the year 24 BC. He was crucified 33
years later, that is in the year 9 AD. The discrepancy between our
information (from Creme's Master) and accepted tradition can be explained
by the fact that it took the Christians a few hundred years to become
powerful enough to introduce another calendar. By that time it had become
impossible to calculate the years exactly. Seven years after his death, in the
year 16 AD, Jesus reincarnated as Appolonius of Tyana."(Share
International, Jan. '84)

There was also an article published on "Appolonius of Tyana" in Share
International Magazine (I don't have the date off-hand but can hunt it down
if anyone would like it). The article is about 2600 words so too long for
this format but I will send it to you privately, Nancy. If anyone else is
interested in it let me know and I will send it to you. It is quite
interesting.

Love and Light,
Todd
______________________
*Apollonius of Tyana*
by Bette Stockbauer

A report on the life of the man thought to be the reincarnation of Jesus.
(Word Count = 2635)
______________________




From malcom@u-n-i.net Tue Oct 17 05:56:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Appolonius of Tyanna
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From: "N.Malcom" 

Yes, please send it, I would be very grateful! nancy

----------
> From: Todd Lorentz 
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World Re: Appolonius of Tyanna
> Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:47 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Nancy,
> 
> At 07:16 AM 17/10/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> >Where can one find information concerning 
> >Appolonius of Tyanna ? Nancy
> 
> First, here is a quote from Share International Magazine regarding the
> reincarnation of Appolonius:
> 
> "Jesus was not born in the year 0 but in the year 24 BC. He was crucified
33
> years later, that is in the year 9 AD. The discrepancy between our
> information (from Creme's Master) and accepted tradition can be explained
> by the fact that it took the Christians a few hundred years to become
> powerful enough to introduce another calendar. By that time it had become
> impossible to calculate the years exactly. Seven years after his death,
in the
> year 16 AD, Jesus reincarnated as Appolonius of Tyana."(Share
> International, Jan. '84)
> 
> There was also an article published on "Appolonius of Tyana" in Share
> International Magazine (I don't have the date off-hand but can hunt it
down
> if anyone would like it). The article is about 2600 words so too long
for
> this format but I will send it to you privately, Nancy. If anyone else
is
> interested in it let me know and I will send it to you. It is quite
> interesting.
> 
> Love and Light,
> Todd
> ______________________
> *Apollonius of Tyana*
> by Bette Stockbauer
> 
> A report on the life of the man thought to be the reincarnation of Jesus.
> (Word Count = 2635)
> ______________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Oct 17 06:06:09 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Compiler 

Nancy,

You will find that "Apollonius of Tyana" is one of the articles in the 29-part
series of articles entitled "Great Theosophists". This particular series goes
from articles number 130 to 158 of the 166 in the compiled book on the Wisdom
World web site. He is also mentioned in some of the other articles in the
series. This is a series that all Theosophists would very find useful to read.
Here is the link to the page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html

Compiler
-------

"N.Malcom" wrote:

> Where can one find information concerning
> Appolonius of Tyanna ? Nancy
> ----------
> > From: Todd Lorentz 
> > To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
> > Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:21 AM
> >
> > At 04:23 AM 17/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> > >Because of my longtime study of things/ideas Tibetan and Indian, I too
> have
> > >been aware of the information about Isa/Jesus' possible "new" life after
> > >the age of 33 in Tibet. And my take was always that he traveled through
> > >the Levant up to Tibet for training from 12 to 30 -- although being who
> he
> > >was, what need had he to travel -- other than to study his fellow men
> and
> > >their current ways. Love from Kat in Italy
> >
> > As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
> > decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
> > initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
> > initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
> > closely with the Christ.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Oct 17 06:18:09 2000
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From: ramadoss@eden.com

At 06:21 AM 10/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
closely with the Christ.

>Todd

I would like to know where the above information is written up.

mkr

From ramadoss@eden.com Tue Oct 17 06:20:29 2000
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At 04:23 AM 10/17/2000 -0400, you wrote:
And my take was always that he traveled through
the Levant up to Tibet for training from 12 to 30 -- although being who he
was, what need had he to travel -- other than to study his fellow men and
their current ways. Love from Kat in Italy

I never thought of this angle. It could be that he travelled to deal with
some worldly problem which could be intervened only personally.

mkr

From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 06:22:16 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:21:49 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Re: Appolonius of Tyanna
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Hi Todd -- I would appreciate the info. kat in Italy

From theo73@webtv.net Tue Oct 17 06:51:53 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
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Methods employed for understanding Theosophy.
Study groups is one:
Sush as;
Long Beach Theosophy Center
3127 South St.
Long beach, Ca. 90805
Student sponserd and open to all.
It works!
e-mail inquirs welcome.


From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Oct 17 06:56:55 2000
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Subject: Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
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From: Compiler 

Todd,

This link that I recently found may or may not be disturbing or helpful to you
and others on this list -- that is up to each for him or herself. But
searching for the true nature of reality requires an open mind and nerves of
steel when our personal beliefs and our likes and dislikes are presented with
conflicting material. With this said, I want the reader to know that many
years ago, soon after running into Theosophy, I also ran into Alice Bailey's
books. I bought all of the books by both HPB and Alice Bailey and began my
studies, reading and studying them all. After a few years I found that the
Alice Bailey stuff, the actual teachings and philosophy itself, did not ring
true for me. Please understand that it was not the good-work aspect of her
teachings from a "Serving Humanity" point of view, just the overall
Philosophy. In the end I dropped the Alice Bailey material. It was only many
years later that, as said, I ran into this article, which touched upon most of
the things that did not ring true to me. So I present it here for everyone to
deal with it as they will:
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html

Compiler
-------

Todd Lorentz wrote:

> Hello,
> >
> >> According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the White
> >Lodge
> >> was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the
> >perfection
> >of
> >> a Buddha. But, I don´t know if HPB said something about the
> >"grade"
> >of
> >> the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?
> >>
> >> Shouldn´t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he said
> >in
> >the
> >> Bible, as an Avatara?
>
> For interest's sake:
> Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th degree
> initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya and the
> Buddha both appear at the Wesak festival where the energy from the Buddha
> (Will of God) is transferred to Maitreya and blended by Maitryea with the
> energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an intermediary
> between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the
> Christ) and Shamballa.
> Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the head of the
> Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's have His
> name right and expect the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, to return from the
> Tushita Heaven. While the Buddha is "more advanced", so to speak, than
> Maitreya, He evolved originally along the moon chain, whereas, Maitreya is
> an evolutionary product of the earth chain.
> Further, Jesus was a senior initiate (4th degree initiate) who was
> overshadowed by Maitreya for the last three years of his life - from the
> Baptism to the Crucifixion. As Alice Bailey recounts in "From Bethlehem to
> Calvary", the life of Jesus demonstrated (among other things) the five
> major initiations for Mankind. The fourth was demonstrated by Jesus in the
> "Great Renunciation" on the cross. It was Maitreya who further
> demonstrated the fifth - The Ascension - using the body of Jesus, and later
> spoke with the disciples saying to "look for the water bearer" (the age of
> Aquarius) and that He would return at the end of the Age (foretelling the
> return of Maitreya at this time).
>
> Todd
>


From ringding@blinx.de Tue Oct 17 08:07:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:39:52 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

Todd wrote:
> Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th degree
>initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya and the

For Benjamin Creme also such guys as Hitler and Stalin are high initiates,
so how trustful is he?

>energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an intermediary
>between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the
>Christ) and Shamballa.

One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is described
here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the
original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in contradiction to
the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
return.

> Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the head of the
>Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's have His

But for many Theosophists it is Madame Blavatsky who served as the messenger
for the new age...
Frank





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Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
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From: ramadoss@eden.com

At 06:51 AM 10/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Methods employed for understanding Theosophy.
>Study groups is one:
>Sush as;
>Long Beach Theosophy Center
>3127 South St.
>Long beach, Ca. 90805
>Student sponserd and open to all.
>It works!
>e-mail inquirs welcome.

Wonderful. In this day and age when $$$$$$$$ rules, it is a breath of fresh
air!

mkr

From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 08:17:09 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:16:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Not being the intellectual some of you are, still I would say it is to be
found in the Bailey work. Kat in Italy

From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Oct 17 08:24:53 2000
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Subject: Another article about HPB & Alice Bailey
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From: compiler@wisdomworld.org

Consider this link a continuation of the subject, but presented by=20
another Theosophical author, of the mesage and link that I first
posted on the subject, and which is found below:
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm

Compiler
-------

In theos-talk@egroups.com, Compiler  wrote:
> Todd,
>=20
> This link that I recently found may or may not be disturbing or
helpful to you
> and others on this list -- that is up to each for him or herself.
But
> searching for the true nature of reality requires an open mind and
nerves of
> steel when our personal beliefs and our likes and dislikes are
presented with
> conflicting material. With this said, I want the reader to know
that many
> years ago, soon after running into Theosophy, I also ran into Alice
Bailey's
> books. I bought all of the books by both HPB and Alice Bailey and
began my
> studies, reading and studying them all. After a few years I found
that the
> Alice Bailey stuff, the actual teachings and philosophy itself, did
not ring
> true for me. Please understand that it was not the good-work aspect
of her
> teachings from a "Serving Humanity" point of view, just the overall
> Philosophy. In the end I dropped the Alice Bailey material. It was
only many
> years later that, as said, I ran into this article, which touched
upon most of
> the things that did not ring true to me. So I present it here for
everyone to
> deal with it as they will:
> http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html
>=20
> Compiler
> -------
>=20
> Todd Lorentz wrote:
>=20
> > Hello,
> > >
> > >> According to C.W. Leadbeater, the place of the Christ in the
White
> > >Lodge
> > >> was the place of a Boddhisatva, a human being near to the
> > >perfection
> > >of
> > >> a Buddha. But, I don=B4t know if HPB said something about the
> > >"grade"
> > >of
> > >> the Christ. Did she do it? What did she said?
> > >>
> > >> Shouldn=B4t we consider the Christ, in accordance to what he
said
> > >in
> > >the
> > >> Bible, as an Avatara?
> >
> > For interest's sake:
> > Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th
degree
> > initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya
and the
> > Buddha both appear at the Wesak festival where the energy from
the Buddha
> > (Will of God) is transferred to Maitreya and blended by Maitryea
with the
> > energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an
intermediary
> > between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of
the
> > Christ) and Shamballa.
> > Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the
head of the
> > Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's
have His
> > name right and expect the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, to return from
the
> > Tushita Heaven. While the Buddha is "more advanced", so to
speak, than
> > Maitreya, He evolved originally along the moon chain, whereas,
Maitreya is
> > an evolutionary product of the earth chain.
> > Further, Jesus was a senior initiate (4th degree initiate) who
was
> > overshadowed by Maitreya for the last three years of his life -
from the
> > Baptism to the Crucifixion. As Alice Bailey recounts in "From
Bethlehem to
> > Calvary", the life of Jesus demonstrated (among other things) the
five
> > major initiations for Mankind. The fourth was demonstrated by
Jesus in the
> > "Great Renunciation" on the cross. It was Maitreya who further
> > demonstrated the fifth - The Ascension - using the body of Jesus,
and later
> > spoke with the disciples saying to "look for the water bearer"
(the age of
> > Aquarius) and that He would return at the end of the Age
(foretelling the
> > return of Maitreya at this time).
> >
> > Todd
> >



From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 17 08:46:39 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:46:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Jesus in Tibet/Kashmir...
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From: Arthur Gregory 

The Ahmaddiyah belief about Jesus originated with the movement's
founder who located a shrine in Srinagar believed to be according to
the local tradition the tomb of Jesus. This occurred near the end of
the nineteenth century. 

Interestingly, this shrine contains what are said to be a carving of
the feet of Jesus with what are said to be the wounds of the
crucifixion. The symbol of the feet are common in early Buddhist
shrines as well as symbolic of Vishnu and ask the believer to postulate
in hulmility to the feet of the saint. That these "feet' have what
appear to be additional moonshaped markings is intriguing. Another
interesting aspect to the shrine is that it would otherwise appear to
be that of a Muslim saint from outward appearances. So the shrine
itself seems to combine several forms of religious traditions that
normally one would not expect to be in one place.

Also there is a long tradition in Islam that Jesus somehow escaped the
crucifixion, this is found in the Qu'ran. Some apocryphal Gospels tend
I believe to support this view.

Most recently in the Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield you will find a
possible outcome of the drama of the crucifixion.

Perhaps the best and most definitive book on the subject is "Jesus in
Heaven and on Earth" by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad. He really does a excellent
job in cataloging the eastern materials and dealing with various
aspects.

I've also run across the Crucifixion as viewed by Eyewitness material
and this comes by way of some theosophists, interestingly who published
a possible scenario not unlike that of Hugh Schonfield.

I think it's an interesting area to study and as the threads are
sometimes rather thin, I'm not always convinced of how realible it all
is but there seems to be some probability in it.

Apollonius of Tyana is interesting because he did make it to India with
a disciple with relative ease within a generation of the time of
Christ, traditionally. I personally don't accept the idea that
Apollonius and Christ are the same as some have postulated.


- Art


888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888



=====
"Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world."

- Bhakta-Parijna: 91

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
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From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 17 09:04:27 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:02:20 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Jesus in Tibet/Kashmir...
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Thank you Art -- very interesting indeed. Love, Kat in Italy

From shampan@zip.com.au Tue Oct 17 10:19:16 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

Perhaps this is the Ahemdya belief:-

"Also there is a long tradition in Islam that Jesus somehow
escaped the
crucifixion, this is found in the Qu'ran. Some apocryphal Gospels
tend
I believe to support this view."

That is not shared by all Islamic community.
According to the main-stream, the belief is Jesus was crucified
.. that is that, no hint of his return so far. There is no
mention of his arrival in the far east, neither positive, nor
negative. The confusion regarding that footprint is believed to
be the desciiple who was martyred in India, some expert here
might offer more detail on which of the 12 desciples reached
India.

There is a mention in Islamic scripture, of Jesus promising.. he
will return .. but only just before the "Day of Judgement". The
last day before the end of this universe. When the sun will rise
in the west. The specualted scientifical explanation is, the
earth's rotation on it's axis is constantly losing speed by
1000th second per year (appr); when the earth's centripetal and
centrifugal forces reach alomost zero, earth will nearly touch
the sun as the gradual distance betweeen sun and earth decline.
And that is also described as "The sun will be just be about one
fist apart from your head, your brains will boil like boiling
water, the hills and rocks shall turn into dust, and float on air
like cotton and smoke.. .....etc."; Jesus is prophecized to
return then, if my memory serves me right.

Thankfully,
Sham


From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Oct 17 10:31:06 2000
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In a message dated 10/17/00 12:21:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< That is not shared by all Islamic community. >>

It is by those who read the Koran. Now, I have to find mine and dig out the 
sloka that has the statement, but Jesus is specifically referred to as not 
only having escaped the crucifixion but also standing and watching the 
execution of his substitute.

This is a tradition taken from the Gnostics, several of which sects stated 
that Jesus essentially hypnotized someone into taking his place and stood in 
the crowd laughing.

Chuck the Heretic

From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Tue Oct 17 10:36:31 2000
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Hi Todd:

I have many questions. If B.Creme said what you told us, then I would like=
to
know who are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for him.

There is something I don=B4t understand. Why the Christ had to die? To me=
rely
represent a teaching about iniciations? I mean, really, if we think that, =
we
could call him mad! ... unless there had been another reason for that.

Another thing: if the Christ is a 7th degree human iniciate, then how do we
have to understand those lot of phrases of the Bible where it is said that =
He
and the Father are the same thing, that the Christ existed before everythin=
g,
that there is no Angel, Arcangel, or any other celestial being higher than
Christ ... and so on?.

Please, group, don=B4t forget to mention what HPB said about these things,
because it could be interesting too.

Todd Lorentz escribi=F3:

>
> For interest's sake:
> Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th degree
> initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya and the
> Buddha both appear at the Wesak festival where the energy from the Buddha
> (Will of God) is transferred to Maitreya and blended by Maitryea with the
> energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an intermediary
> between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the
> Christ) and Shamballa.
> Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the head of t=
he
> Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's have His
> name right and expect the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, to return from the
> Tushita Heaven. While the Buddha is "more advanced", so to speak, than
> Maitreya, He evolved originally along the moon chain, whereas, Maitreya i=
s
> an evolutionary product of the earth chain.
> Further, Jesus was a senior initiate (4th degree initiate) who was
> overshadowed by Maitreya for the last three years of his life - from the
> Baptism to the Crucifixion. As Alice Bailey recounts in "From Bethlehem =
to
> Calvary", the life of Jesus demonstrated (among other things) the five
> major initiations for Mankind. The fourth was demonstrated by Jesus in t=
he
> "Great Renunciation" on the cross. It was Maitreya who further
> demonstrated the fifth - The Ascension - using the body of Jesus, and lat=
er
> spoke with the disciples saying to "look for the water bearer" (the age o=
f
> Aquarius) and that He would return at the end of the Age (foretelling the
> return of Maitreya at this time).
>
> Todd
>

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Hi Todd:

I have many questions.  If B.Creme said what you told us, then
I would like to know who are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for
him.

There is something I don´t understand.  Why the Christ had
to die?  To merely represent a teaching about iniciations? 
I mean, really, if we think that, we could call him mad! ... unless there
had been another reason for that.

Another thing: if the Christ is a 7th degree human iniciate, then how
do we have to understand those lot of phrases of the Bible where it is
said that He and the Father are the same thing, that the Christ existed
before everything, that there is no Angel, Arcangel, or any other celestial
being higher than Christ ... and so on?.

Please, group, don´t forget to mention what HPB said about these
things, because it could be interesting too.

Todd Lorentz escribió:

 

For interest's sake:

     Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya
is a 7th degree

initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate.  Maitreya
and the

Buddha both appear at the Wesak festival where the energy from the
Buddha

(Will of God) is transferred to Maitreya and blended by Maitryea with
the

energy of Love which He embodies.  The Buddha acts as an intermediary

between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the

Christ) and Shamballa.

   Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits
at the head of the

Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family.  The Buddhist's
have His

name right and expect the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, to return from the

Tushita Heaven.  While the Buddha is "more advanced", so to speak,
than

Maitreya, He evolved originally along the moon chain, whereas, Maitreya
is

an evolutionary product of the earth chain.

   Further, Jesus was a senior initiate (4th degree initiate)
who was

overshadowed by Maitreya for the last three years of his life - from
the

Baptism to the Crucifixion.  As Alice Bailey recounts in "From
Bethlehem to

Calvary", the life of Jesus demonstrated (among other things) the five

major initiations for Mankind.  The fourth was demonstrated by
Jesus in the

"Great Renunciation" on the cross.  It was Maitreya who further

demonstrated the fifth - The Ascension - using the body of Jesus, and
later

spoke with the disciples saying to "look for the water bearer" (the
age of

Aquarius) and that He would return at the end of the Age (foretelling
the

return of Maitreya at this time).

Todd

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Subject: Re: Theos-World Ahmedya
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/17/00 12:21:00 PM Central Daylight Time,
> shampan@zip.com.au writes:
>
> << That is not shared by all Islamic community. >>
>
> It is by those who read the Koran. Now, I have to find mine
> and dig out the
> sloka that has the statement, but Jesus is specifically
> referred to as not
> only having escaped the crucifixion but also standing and
> watching the
> execution of his substitute.

Aha!! there is a "talk"about Jesus was spared of the final
strife, when he uttered the words..."Illayhjah ...etc." (no one
quite sure what the words were), and Jesus's soul was replaced by
Judas, and Judas being punished instead.. But specifically in
those words in Quran? .. I missed it somewhere then.

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/17/00 12:21:00 PM Central
Daylight Time,

shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< That is not shared by all Islamic community. >>

It is by those who read the Koran.  Now, I have to find mine
and dig out the

sloka that has the statement, but Jesus is specifically referred
to as not

only having escaped the crucifixion but also standing and watching
the

execution of his substitute.

Aha!!  there is a "talk"about Jesus was spared of the final strife,
when he uttered the words..."Illayhjah ...etc." (no one quite sure what
the words were), and Jesus's soul was replaced by Judas, and Judas being
punished instead.. But specifically in those words in Quran? .. I missed
it somewhere then.

--------------2A5E99E444C0D96C9BA3A9E5--

From dalval@nwc.net Tue Oct 17 15:55:27 2000
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Reply-To: 
To: "AAA-THEOS-TALK" , "Theosophy Study List" 
Subject: RE: Abortion and Theosophy
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:41:20 -0700
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From: Dallas Tenbroeck 

Oct 17th 2000

Dear Friend:

HPB wrote an article which states the attitude of the
Theosophical philosophy on the subject of abortion.

It is titled

IS FETICIDE A CRIME?

THEOSOPHIST magazine (Bombay, Adyar) August 1883.

This article has been reprinted a number of times in various
magazines and also in BLAVATSKY: COLLECTED WORKS.

ULT BLAVATSKY THEOSOPHICAL ARTICLES, Vol. II, p. 335.

The article begins: " At no age as under no circumstances
whatever is a murder justifiable...[the article continues and
observes: "The crime committed lies precisely in the wilful and
sinful destruction of life, and interference with the operations
of nature, hence -- with KARMA -- that of the mother and the
would-be future human being....feticide is a crime against
nature...[Occultism states] : "feticide as an attempt to double
suicide. For, indeed, when even successful and the mother does
not die just then, it still shortens her life on earth to prolong
it with dreary percentage in Kama-loka, the intermediate sphere
between the earth and the region of rest...]

D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: aditya@uol.com.br [mailto:aditya@uol.com.br]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 1:10 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: Abortion and Theosophy

Namaskar! Obrigado pelo e-mail, o mais rapidamente possível
responderei a você.

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From shampan@zip.com.au Tue Oct 17 17:46:23 2000
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Subject: Jesus in Quran (crusifixion)
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

Dear List,

I am more frustrated as I have no books any more with me that I
did years ago. None at all. Most of my room is filled with 2500
LP's and CD's, stereos and computer accessories. Perhaps my mind
has been filled just as much with those.

But regarding that confusion, what I remember was... Jesus was
crusified, his soul left the body, replaced by that of Judas..
which was considered due punishment, and the rest is not so
clearly detailed. I have heard various conclusions and
explanations drawn. But missed any to read myslef from the Qurán.

THE BOTTOM LINE is.. Islamic faith does not support any belief as
"return" or "escape" as such.

Thankfully
Sham


From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Oct 17 19:51:51 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Todd Lorentz wrote:
> For interest's sake:
> Benjamin Creme's Master 

Which one? Money, or Satan? Actually, when you serve the former, you
serve the latter, too.

Bart Lidofsky

From LINDAROZEN@AOL.COM Tue Oct 17 20:11:38 2000
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unsubscribe me

From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 20:14:49 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:20:06 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Dear Compiler,

>This link that I recently found may or 
>may not be disturbing or helpful to you
>and others on this list -- that is up to 
>each for him or herself. But searching for 
>the true nature of reality requires an open 
>mind and nerves of steel when our personal 
>beliefs and our likes and dislikes are presented 
>with conflicting material. 

I welcome all kinds of information that provide as many perpectives
as possible to my studies. I would encourage anyone to include in their
reading the article that you have so graciously brought to our attention. 

However, I would also caution that it is not the final word by any
stretch of the imagination. A great deal has occurred since this article
has been written. In particular, about 90% of the Alice Bailey volumes
have been written *after* this article. The article was written in the
spring of 1929 and much of Alice Bailey's work followed after that. In
addition to that, they have chosen to critique a work ("Treatise on Cosmic
Fire") containing about 1350 pages of extremely dense esoteric information
utilizing some new terms and concepts from what Theosophists were familiar
to with H.P.B. This is only *one* volume of 24 and the situation evolved a
great deal in the teachings throughout the period stretching to 1950. It
took me about a year to give a *serious* reading to the "Treatise on Cosmic
Fire" the first time, and even more information reveals itself on
subsequent readings. That these authors were able to sum up *so easily*
their *final* conclusions is rather suspect and I would recommend that
seekers study the "Treatise on Cosmic Fire" on their own instead of making
any serious conclusions based on this article. 
To add further doubt to my mind, I am struck by the admission of these
authors that they were merely gave a "cursory examination" of this most
difficult text before writing their polemic against Bailey's work. In the
end, their conclusion may be right.....but it is obvious that they haven't
done the work to prove it in any way. It is also obvious that they have
slightly misconstrued, nay mis-interpreted, some of the concepts. Be that
as it may, here are some of their opening remarks to think about: 

"We have never met Mrs. Bailey, and not having previously read any of her
books, we were unaware how closely their general scheme and phraseology
resemble that of the BesantLeadbeater "Neo-Theosophy, which includes the
Liberal Catholic Church and World-Teacher propaganda. ..."

The bias is already obvious. There is no open minded search occuring in
this article. And further they state:

"Even such a cursory examination as we have had time to give, however, has
convinced us that there is little or nothing in common between them (i.e.,
Bailey's and H.P.B.'s works). The impression left on the mind is that of a
subtle attempt to substitute a specifically Christian system for the
universal one of the secret Doctrine, rather than 'confirming and
amplifying' that marvelous work, as admirers of Cosmic Fire have stated."

As anyone who has thoroughly studied "Cosmic Fire" could attest, there is
no veiled attempt or otherwise to "substitute a specifically Christian
system for...the Secret Doctrine." It is pure Ageless Wisdom teachings. 


I am by no means at the end of my studies or my journey and the only thing
that I can recomend here in the face of this sarticle is for the reader to
study "Cosmic Fire" and then decide for themselves. While it did not have
the ring of truth for you, it did for me. Each finds their own way through
the darkness.

Love and Light,
Todd





From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 20:17:09 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Todd Lorentz 

At 08:28 PM 17/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Todd Lorentz wrote:
>> For interest's sake:
>> Benjamin Creme's Master 
>
>	Which one? Money, or Satan? Actually, when you serve the former, you
>serve the latter, too.
>
>	Bart Lidofsky
>

Hi Bart,

Please clarify. I'm not sure I understand your direction or intention here.

Sincerely,
Todd


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 20:22:33 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi mkr,

The first information on Appolonius is of Tyana is from Share International
Magazine. I have the article and can send it to you if you request it.
The information on The Master Jesus is in "Maitreya's Mission, Volume II"
by Benjamin Creme, page 69.

Sincerely,
Todd

At 08:13 AM 17/10/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:21 AM 10/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>>As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
>decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
>initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
>initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
>closely with the Christ.
>
>>Todd
>
>I would like to know where the above information is written up.
>
>mkr
>
>
>
>
>


From LINDAROZEN@AOL.COM Tue Oct 17 21:31:59 2000
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From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 22:04:26 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:53:33 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Theos-World: The Christ Principle
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Ernesto,

>I have many questions. If B.Creme said what 
>you told us, then I would like to know who 
>are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for him.

I would not claim to speak for him but he has always referred to the
teachings of H.P.B. and Alice Bailey as an accurate representation of his
views on divinity. 

>There is something I don't understand. Why the 
>Christ had to die? To merely represent a teaching 
>about iniciations? I mean, really, if we think 
>that, we could call him mad! ... unless there had 
>been another reason for that. 

That claim was not made at all. The Christ didn't *have* to die, I'm
sure. As I mentioned before, Alice Bailey mentions that Jesus was an
initiate (Creme claims that He was a 4th degree initiate) and was
"overshadowed" by the Christ during the last three years of His life from
the Baptism to the Crucifixion. The point of this was for the Christ to
release His teaching, through His disciple Jesus, on Love and anchor it
within the consciousness of the mass of humanity. This was made possible
because of the previous work accomplished by the Buddha in anchoring the
Wisdom aspect. These two aspects - Love and Wisdom - are the two main
aspects of the 2nd Ray.
Jesus did not *have* to die on the cross. That was a choice made by
the authorities of the time. Jesus did not simply come to demonstrate a
few initiations and then get crucified. He came as a teaching disciple,
like many before and after Him, in Service to the Plan and to Humanity.
That He was crucified and martyred for His teaching is not an unusual
occurance throughout history. For an example of this, look at what the
"authorities" attempted to do to H.P.B.

>Another thing: if the Christ is a 7th degree 
>human iniciate, then how do we have to understand 
>those lot of phrases of the Bible where it is said 
>that He and the Father are the same thing, that 
>the Christ existed before everything, that there 
>is no Angel, Arcangel, or any other celestial 
>being higher than Christ ... and so on?.

Well, as far as I understand, H.P.B. would say the same about you. That
is, that you and the Father are one (essentially) but that the Christ
*knew* that to be true in His own awareness. The Christ is a *principle*,
the principle of consciousness, and indeed does exist before everything (in
a manner of speaking). That One who Bailey, Creme, etc call Maitreya is
the One Who embodies that principle at a planetary level and so He is
called the Christ. But He only embodies a principle which exists in all of
us and is (essentially) one with the Father. 

>Please, group, don't forget to mention 
>what HPB said about these things, because 
>it could be interesting too. 

I agree. It would be interesting to hear more about H.P.B.'s view on "the
Christ principle in you".

Love and Light,
Todd



From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 22:04:30 2000
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Subject: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Frank,

At 02:39 PM 17/10/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>>>>>Todd wrote:
>>>>>> Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th degree
>>>>>>>initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Frank wrote:
>For Benjamin Creme also such guys as Hitler and Stalin are high initiates,
>so how trustful is he?

I don't see how that automatically makes him "untrustworthy"?? A Hitler or
a Stalin would *have* to have some degree of inner power in order to sway
the masses. We all know that a word of power or mantra recited by one
individual can have no influence at all but when recited by someone of more
"advanced" inner stature will have *much* more effect. Creme said that
these two individuals were around the 2nd degree initiate status. However,
the soul is not in full control until at least the 3rd initiation. Between
the 1st and the 3rd initiation a battle occurs within the individual
between the personality and the soul for control. This stretches for the
lives lived within the duration between the 1st and the 3rd initiation (and
sometimes longer). It is not out of the question to have someone of a
considerable degree of advancement (relative to the majority of humanity)
and still be suseptible to negative influences. What about the semior
initiates of the Black Lodge? Are they not of some advanced development
yet lacking in some specific heart qualities? They are aid to be (by
H.P.B. and Bailey) as Adept in the occult arts as some of the Master's of
the Hierarchy, yet lack a peculiar connection to the "Heart of God". They
have a divine role in the Cosmos in upholding the material aspect of
creation BUT their worked has spilled over onto the astral and mental
planes where they have gained control. Sealed to only the material aspect
of creation, they have a divine role to play. That is why we say "Seal the
door where evil dwells" in the Great Invocation.
Another example could be someone like Milarepa, the 12th century Tantric
Master. He lived a life of Service and Teaching in some of the more
obscure and occult aspects of Tantric Buddhism, however, he didn't start
out that way!! It was only under the guidance of his teacher Marpa that he
turned form pursuing Black Magic and reformed his approach to life. Would
you not say that Milarepa was not an initiate of at least some standing.
I think it is quite possible to have someone of at least "some" standing
in soul awareness and yet still be under the force of their own powerful
personality and thus do some dirty deads. I don't find the idea tasteful
in any way, but it nevertheless is not impossible and the evidence suggests
that it is possible. 
So, again, why does that make Benjamin Creme automatically untrustworthy? 

>>>>Todd wrote:
>>>>>energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an intermediary
>>>>>between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of the
>>>>>Christ) and Shamballa.
>
>Frank wrote:
>One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is described
>here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the
>original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in contradiction to
>the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
>return.
>
>

Well, I believe that H.P.B. was long dead before Bailey wrote any of her
works. H.P.B. could not have *directly* denied anything that Bailey said,
although, some of her writings may have "appeared" to disagree with/ or not
fully align with the claims of Bailey. I suspect that much of the
*denials* come from later Theosophists and their own interpretations. Be
that as it may, I am reaching over and pulling out the first book in my
vicinity ("The Key to Theosophy"), open it to page 288 and the following
chapter, to read all about an *absolute* affirmation of the existence of
Mahatmas and Adepts, all belonging to a "White Lodge", a Brotherhood if you
will, and references made to different grades of individuals such as
Adepts, Chelas, Chohans, Mahatmas, Initiates and Masters. In this sense,
Blavatsky has *entirely* established the existence of the Hierarchy. The
fact that Bailey comes later and fills in the role of some members within
that Hierarchy serves as no contradiction to H.P.B. The fact that H.P.B.
for the most part refused to speak of specific roles, or even denied them
at times, is no different than the Buddha denying God *because you could
not speak of it* and then having followers later claim that the Buddha said
there are no gods. We know how regretful that H.P.B. was about revealing
the existence of the Masters and how she later tried to clarify her
position. The fact that H.P.B. speaks very little, or denies outright, the
position of certain figures within the Hierarchy, *YET* fully establishes
the existence of that Hierarchy eeks a bit of self-contradiction. Either
there IS a Hierarchy and, therefore, there *must* be some specific roles or
duties within that Great Lodge (despite H.P.B.'s claim otherwise), *OR* the
notion of Hierarchy is incorrect and she has made a mistake there. If the
former is true then H.P.B. cannot have the last word on it and so your
statement that "Hierarchy which is described here and was taught by
AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the original Theosophy by HPB"
is interesting but undefinitive. 
Furthermore, you state that "HPB taught further and in contradiction to
the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
return." Respectfully, I doubt that Blavatsky was privy to the entire Plan
as known by the Hierarchy and was given only that which was her duty to
reveal. The Plan is a dynamic evolving thing, subject to change given the
response (quicker or slower) of humanity, etc. Remember that the world
wars followed after Blavatsky had already passed on and a tremendous change
was occuring in the world. Bailey states that the Plan evolved and that
the Christ made the decision to return in the physical in 1945. Maybe she
is right...maybe she is wrong.....but I would prefer to investigate that
claim on its own merit rather than to rest on the statement that HPB didn't
make that claim 40-50 years earlier.
Please forgive me if I am sounding abrupt but I am trying to be lucid
and pointed and clear in my thinking and it is easy to be misled in our
thinking. I am only seeking truth like anyone else. 

>>>Todd wrote: 
>>>>> Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for 
>>>>>this age and sits at the head of the
>>>>Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. 
>
>Frank wrote:
>But for many Theosophists it is Madame Blavatsky 
>who served as the messenger
>for the new age...

Yes, and this holds true for many who would claim not to be a theosophist.
But she is not necessarily the *only* messenger. History has proven that
great teachers come time and time again. We are in a profound period of
time. There are many amazing things occurring in the world that clearly
reach beyond the limits of what Blavatsky had to say. What about Sai Baba?
Premananda? Paramahansa Yogananda? Mother Meera? Maitreya? Bailey?
Krishnamurti? Muktananda? Blah, Blah, Blah. Blavatsky laid powerful
foundations for the New Age, I don't think that is in dispute. But surely
she is not the end of it....and surely she is not the only disciple in
history charged by the Hierarchy with the task of furthering the Ageless
Wisdom teachings. I don't think Blavatsky gave the complete and *final*
version, this she admitted herself. 
Theosophy has given us very much, there is no doubt about it, but
sometimes we need to step outside of the "Theosophical sandbox" in order to
gain some perspective.

In seeking knowledge,
Todd


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Tue Oct 17 22:51:43 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:58:01 -0600
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Subject: Theos-World: The Christ Principle
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Ernesto,

Here is two more interesting quotes found in "The Mahatma Letters" by
Sinnett in a letter written by K.H.

(page 344)
K.H. recounts the biblical phrase and cites "...the familiar simile made by
the Christian Adept, the Kabalistic Paul:...'Know ye not that ye are the
temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you'"

Also, on page 344 he says:
"Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded Christians
know that the real *Christ* of every Christian is the *Vach*, 'the mystical
Voice,' [the *Word*, Logos, jivatman...] while the man *Jeshu* was but a
mortal like any of us, an adept more by his inherent purity and ignorance
of real Evil, than by what he had learned with hisinitiated Rabbis and the
already (at that period) fast degenerating Egyptian Hierophants and
priests. ..."

Todd


From noone@nowhere.com Tue Oct 17 23:14:13 2000
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
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message missing
From shampan@zip.com.au Tue Oct 17 23:14:14 2000
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Subject: Hitler
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From: "Shampan -e-Shindh" 

Dear List,

I do not believe in any such layer of spiritual prmotion, be it 7th
or 2nd. However, I do realize some scholars might have used such 
expressions to ease the explanation procedures. I am not sure how 
acceptable they are, as one scholar might disagree with the others 
regarding a particular individual reaching certain level.

Stalin, I did not do much reading upon. Hitler, did a bit .. both 
main-stream and counterparts. I do not follow the man or agree with 
any of his views, being dark-skinned myself, it is unlikely. The 
greatest problem with analysing Hitler is reliability of information 
recorded. As you know, after a political conflict, the victors or 
triumphants write the history. 

There is something to admire in everyone. Hitler's motive or actions 
or goal or beliefs can always be questioned. Some might classify him 
as insane, mad etc. How many politicians do you know who openly 
express their opinion? He was always politicially incorrect (in views 
of political caricature or complications), in that sense he was a 
simple man(not a double talker, back-stabber). He was almost 
non-diplomatic. He was naive in the trickeries of politics. There are 
politicians who did much worse, but never got caught, Hitler was too 
straight forward in a certain sense to be "not caught red-handed". 

Do you really believe Hitler was doing all to make money for himself? 
To gain power for himself? Does it not seem he was in a dis-agreeable 
belief, but his final motive was not so "self"-oriented?.. Which I 
find hard to find in most politicians today, yesterday or ever.

However I might dislike Hitler's view, I consider him misled. But I 
doubt any of his deeds were rooted by selfishness.

The pebble your nose hits when you fall is not the rock that made you 
stumble.

To put all guilt on Hitler is like, a teacher who punishes a boy who 
screamed in the class and hit the boy sitting behind him without a 
cause, but there was a cause the teacher did not know, the naughty
boy 
behind the screaming boy gave him a pin-prick, and the naughty boy 
knew exactly how the naive boy would react.

Do I like Hitler? Of course not. But I do not consider him any worse 
than anyone else.

Ashes and Diamonds
Foes and Friends
We are all equal in the end.
..........and again my motto,
Love for all 
Great and Small (who ever, however)
Eqaully and impartial


From KArc@compuserve.com Wed Oct 18 00:48:27 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:47:38 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Re Hitler and Stalin...

Frankly it is quite accurate to note that Dark Masters overshadow those
with a degree of initiation...who have opened themselves to evil
....manipulation as separate from Service. And the actual battle (as the
Baghavad Gita describes) is quite powerful and may well go on lifetimes. =
=20

That's why the Great Invocation in Triangles can have such power. It can
help to "seal the door where evil dwells" in all of us who are still caught
up in that Kurukshutra or battleground and need the stabilizing force of
the "higher" energies.=20=20

But the point is what b. creme said regarding the degrees of Initiation
carried by the Buddha and the Christ. People of varying abilities
sometimes have accurate information, but I often wonder if this isn't our
generations fruitless discussions about "how many angels can dance on the
head of a pin". After all, who are we to really decide someone else's
degrees. Particlarly those Entities. It is enough to work on oneself. I
do however love to read of the Wesak Ceremony and would love someday to
enter in that Valley for that Rite.=20=20

Years ago I tried to produce a film set in India and Tibet based on an old
spiritual adventure set in those areas. It may yet be.

Love and Light, from kat in italy

From dalval@nwc.net Wed Oct 18 02:04:00 2000
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To: "Theosophy Study List" 
Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 17, 2000 ABORTION and KARMA
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:47:09 -0700
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From: Dallas Tenbroeck 

Oct 18th 2000

Dear Kym:

Re KARMA., foeticide, abortion, murder, individual
responsibility ...etc...

Apparently the views of occultism as expressed by HPB will not
find entire favor in modern eyes, where involuntary parents
assume the right to terminate and unexpected pregnancy and thus
not only deny the Karmic entrance of an old soul into a new body
suitable to it and its parents. But the whole responsibility of
parenting has become debased to a very low level indeed.

For illicit and personal pleasures we now have the physical means
of more or less sanitizing the karmic results and avoiding
responsibility. This does invite a very wide survey of the inner
motives of most of us in regard to this particular matter of
married (and / or unmarried life).. Some of these seekings may
turn out to be quite unpleasant.

Theosophy states that everything is ruled by Karma.

The Monad in Man makes him an embodiment of the Creative aspect
of Spiritual volition. This power gives him mobility, creativity
and also responsibility for the consequences. It is the root of
brotherhood as each of us affects others and ought to care for
them.

It is inevitable that we constantly flow with Karma and making
new effects, we add to or smooth out the many elements of Karmic
flow. Apparently there are 7 great and general layers of the
constant Karmic progression (which we call evolution) and those
may be surmised to correspond with the 7 great sidereal and human
"principles" no doubt. At least this is also something to think
of.

As such, by independent and self-centered choices, Man makes
either helpful or disturbing additions to the already existing
flow of Karma, and those automatically reflect on others and will
inevitably return to him, as their originator. If to this we add
the factor of reincarnation and karmic relations of family and
friends that extend back over numerous incarnations we will find
that our ancestral past in the theosophic sense is vast indeed.

As to whether there is or is not a conflict apparent in your
observation, we do not yet have a power to view the whole of the
event, and its potentials. We can however follow the rationale
and logic of theosophical doctrines and see if they are
reasonable (not whether we 'life' them or not).

At least, that is how I view the matter.

Dal

D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: kymsmith@micron.net [mailto:kymsmith@micron.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 10:59 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: theos-l digest: October 17, 2000

Dallas offered a bit of an article by HPB:

>IS FETICIDE A CRIME?

The use of the term "feticide" makes immediately obvious the
author's
viewpoint.

Besides, I fail to see how HPB or anyone knows whether or not it
is a
particular woman's KARMA to be a mother or a man to be a father
or a girl
to be a doctor or a child to be beaten. To declare to know what
is
someone's karma and what is not someone's karma is usually very
discouraged, even in Theosophy. If someone wants to base his or
her moral,
ethical, and spiritual judgments according to his or her
percieved
knowledge of everyone else's karma - well, good luck! - ye and
everyone
else around ye are going to need it.

And if it is true that "feticide is a crime against nature", then
nature
often commits crimes against itself. How does that play in the
theory of
karma?


Kym


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From ringding@blinx.de Wed Oct 18 03:38:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:18:33 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

>Frank wrote:
>For Benjamin Creme also such guys as Hitler and Stalin are high initiates,
>so how trustful is he?

>>I don't see how that automatically makes him "untrustworthy"?? A Hitler
>>or a Stalin would *have* to have some degree of inner power in order to
sway

Benjamin Creme gives Hitler in his "occult charts" 2.0 points, but Gottfried
de Purucker, who is in my humble opinion after ten years studying him, gains
only 1.6 points. That means, Creme believes that Hitler was more initiated
than Purucker, but he was tuahgt by the same teachers as HPB and taught the
same doctrine as she and was her follower as Teacher and Messenger of the
Masters. Therefore I call Creme untrustworthy, besides other things like the
Maitraya-Christ poppycock which is really black magic and has not 1% to do
with Theosophy.

>Frank wrote:
>One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is described
>here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the
>original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in contradiction to
>the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
>return.

>Well, I believe that H.P.B. was long dead before Bailey wrote any of her
>works. H.P.B. could not have *directly* denied anything that Bailey said,
>although, some of her writings may have "appeared" to disagree with/ or not
>fully align with the claims of Bailey. I suspect that much of the
>*denials* come from later Theosophists and their own interpretations. Be

Many students on this list are tired to fight over and over again the same
old battles. OK, here are only two out of the many paragraphs of HPB about
the return of Christ:

"Judge for yourself. I write in every letter that a divine Christ (or
Christos) has never existed under a human form outside the imagination of
blasphemers who have carnalized a universal and entirely impersonal
principle."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. IX:223

"'The coming of Christ', means the presence of CHRISTOS in a regenerated
world, and not at all the actual coming in body of 'Christ' Jesus."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. VIII:174

So, Todd, you have here a direct word from HPB herself, insofar as you a
sceptic about later Theosophists. Had the neo-theosophists would have take
care to study and understand the texts of HPB in its real sense and not only
from dead letter reading perhaps they would have been not so fast to make
false claims and terrorize the people with they twisted stuff. Besides, all
the pseudo-Theosophists, which aim it was and still is to destroy HPB's work
and turn the Theosophical Movement into the ranks of the Jesuits (Rome),
claimed to have higher and much more advanved and "ascended" (to where?)
Masters as HPB had.


>that as it may, I am reaching over and pulling out the first book in my
>vicinity ("The Key to Theosophy"), open it to page 288 and the following
>chapter, to read all about an *absolute* affirmation of the existence of
>Mahatmas and Adepts, all belonging to a "White Lodge", a Brotherhood if you
>will, and references made to different grades of individuals such as
>Adepts, Chelas, Chohans, Mahatmas, Initiates and Masters. In this sense,
>Blavatsky has *entirely* established the existence of the Hierarchy. The

That is your interpretation, Theosophists have another one. In nature there
exists no hierarchy as claimed by AB/AAB/CWL. And HPB is supported in this
view by her successors. So, why do you want me to believe the false claims
of Bailey and Creme that there is such kind as an occult officers
bureaucracy.


>fact that Bailey comes later and fills in the role of some members within
>that Hierarchy serves as no contradiction to H.P.B. The fact that H.P.B.

It does. HPB was the first one. If another one comes later and claims to
have the same teachers or even higher teachers as HPB has had, we have the
right to ask to explain the contradictions. And if I get no good answer
which is sound and which satisfies my mind and my heart as well and if I see
that these contradictions results in exoteric misunderstanding of the
esoteric truths HPB brought I am forced to believe that the claims of Bailey
and Creme are false and a spiritual theft and crime.

> Furthermore, you state that "HPB taught further and in contradiction to
>the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
>return." Respectfully, I doubt that Blavatsky was privy to the entire Plan
>as known by the Hierarchy and was given only that which was her duty to
>reveal. The Plan is a dynamic evolving thing, subject to change given the

That does not alter the fact that Bailey do not know details of the plan
which HPB and her successors knew. And the fact that she revealed not all
she knew si no excuse that people like Bailey which claimed to have the same
or higher knowledge as HPB are trying to confirm on the dead letter plane
but fail to grasp the esoteric meaning. And Bailey is purely exoteric. She
did not add one sententce tothe work of HPB which is true, and that what
Bailey wrote true, is not new and was simply copied from HPB.


>response (quicker or slower) of humanity, etc. Remember that the world
>wars followed after Blavatsky had already passed on and a tremendous change
>was occuring in the world. Bailey states that the Plan evolved and that
>the Christ made the decision to return in the physical in 1945. Maybe she

As Benjamin Creme has three times false announced the return of Christ (or
what he believes it is) in the last years I conclude that the return of
Christ in 1945 was a failure? This poppycock smacks as the same black magic
as Bailey's "Invocation". You are you and your background powers that you
try to blow out the real spiritual light out of humanity and try to force
them to believe in the outer imaginations of the astral powers? Is Share
indirectly paid by Rome?

>Yes, and this holds true for many who would claim not to be a theosophist.
>But she is not necessarily the *only* messenger. History has proven that
>great teachers come time and time again. We are in a profound period of
>time. There are many amazing things occurring in the world that clearly
>reach beyond the limits of what Blavatsky had to say. What about Sai Baba?
>Premananda? Paramahansa Yogananda? Mother Meera? Maitreya? Bailey?
>Krishnamurti? Muktananda? Blah, Blah, Blah. Blavatsky laid powerful
>foundations for the New Age, I don't think that is in dispute. But surely

You can believe in any person you like and regard him/her as messenger. But
when a Theosophist uses the term he/she means it in its technical sense and
that is one who was taught and trained and ordered in the same ashram as HPB
was the same doctrines with the same message, not otherwise. A Theosophist
does not use the term for self appointed people or such people who may have
some insight of any degree. That is another reason for me to be sceptical
about the claims of Bailey and Creme: How is it possible that they have
inner knowledge and that they have knowledge about the same doctrines as HPB
had if they even do not know what for HPB was a messenger?
Frank







From ringding@blinx.de Wed Oct 18 03:38:55 2000
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References: <8sjf3d+t8dq@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:18:56 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

Shampan,
Hitler and Stalin were the greatest mass murders in the 20th Century. Hitler
has killed around 6 Millions, Stalins is said to have executed 70-100
Millions.
Both taught oral and written that murder the enemy is just.
How can anyone who is studying Esoteric/Theosophy/Spiritual doctrines for
one moment believe that such things are coming from one you is initiated or
has some imagined "degree" of an imagined "hierarchy"??
What are the hidden voices and the background powers who spread such insande
thoughts? Is that a kind of remote thought control from Rome?
Frank

>Dear List,
>
>I do not believe in any such layer of spiritual prmotion, be it 7th
>or 2nd. However, I do realize some scholars might have used such
>expressions to ease the explanation procedures. I am not sure how
>acceptable they are, as one scholar might disagree with the others
>regarding a particular individual reaching certain level.
>
>Stalin, I did not do much reading upon. Hitler, did a bit .. both
>main-stream and counterparts. I do not follow the man or agree with
>any of his views, being dark-skinned myself, it is unlikely. The
>greatest problem with analysing Hitler is reliability of information
>recorded. As you know, after a political conflict, the victors or
>triumphants write the history.




From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 05:03:17 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:03:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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In a message dated 10/18/00 2:50:15 AM Central Daylight Time, 
KArc@compuserve.com writes:

<< Frankly it is quite accurate to note that Dark Masters overshadow those
with a degree of initiation...who have opened themselves to evil
....manipulation as separate from Service. >>

"We rarely need to go through such work. People can be quite evil enough on 
their own without any help from us." Master Arhrimanus speaking at the Grand 
Convocation of the Dugpas, traditionally held every year at the new moon 
after the Winter Solstice.

Chuck the Heretic


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Wed Oct 18 05:56:28 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:02:46 -0600
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
In-Reply-To: <010e01c038ef$c627a500$91de603e@FrankReitemeyer>
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Frank,

Regretfully, we will have to agree to disagree and go no further. I find
your approach to be less than conducive to real inquiry where it comes to
furthering any knowledge of esotericism. When I have been challenged add
to the discussion, I have offered sources, information and "possiblities"
for others to look at or simply consider. In response, Frank, you cry
"black magic", "idolater", "deceiver", "terrorizer", "blasphemer", and then
plant the seeds of mistrust and suspicion in the group by talking of
conspiracies to overthrow Theosophy, spirituality, etc. What is this
promotion of fear and distrust all about?? There is little incentive for
anyone to ask *meaningful* questions where there lurks this intolerance and
fear. 
You know nothing of me, sir, and you have earned little right in my
eyes to be in a position to imply - in any way, shape or form - that I am
a voice for the Black Lodge. Your comments are rife with the same
distasteful rhetoric and knee-jerk reaction used a century ago by the
opponents of Blavatsky. I agree that there are certainly points that will
always appear contradictory between us, but that does not automatically
make *ME* a clandestine supporter of Rome, or a spiritual "thief" or
"criminal". Your reaction is unwarranted and I will leave my previous
comments stand as they are instead trying to defend them. You still have
not provided a satisfactory reply to my comments but have only restated
your belief that HPB was right and everyone else after her is lesser or wrong.

>What are the hidden voices and the background 
>powers who spread such insande thoughts? Is that 
>a kind of remote thought control from Rome?

We aught not rigidly stand in one spot and crystalize H.P.B.'s works. That
is the real danger here. If we stand in our own little center of the world
and claim that we have the last word on esotericism because HPB said it,
then we have struck the death blow to Theosophy. Theosophy is a "living
philosophy". It is meant to be lived. It must breathe and grow. If we
draw rigid lines around HPB's teachings then it will quickly become
insufficient for a growing humanity. Granted, we must also be careful not
substantiate every little self-proclaimed guru that comes along. Always
the need for open-minded discrimination. 

Todd 



At 12:18 PM 18/10/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>>Frank wrote:
>>For Benjamin Creme also such guys as Hitler and Stalin are high initiates,
>>so how trustful is he?
>
>>>I don't see how that automatically makes him "untrustworthy"?? A Hitler
>>>or a Stalin would *have* to have some degree of inner power in order to
>sway
>
>Benjamin Creme gives Hitler in his "occult charts" 2.0 points, but Gottfried
>de Purucker, who is in my humble opinion after ten years studying him, gains
>only 1.6 points. That means, Creme believes that Hitler was more initiated
>than Purucker, but he was tuahgt by the same teachers as HPB and taught the
>same doctrine as she and was her follower as Teacher and Messenger of the
>Masters. Therefore I call Creme untrustworthy, besides other things like the
>Maitraya-Christ poppycock which is really black magic and has not 1% to do
>with Theosophy.
>
>>Frank wrote:
>>One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is described
>>here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the
>>original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in contradiction to
>>the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
>>return.
>
>>Well, I believe that H.P.B. was long dead before Bailey wrote any of her
>>works. H.P.B. could not have *directly* denied anything that Bailey said,
>>although, some of her writings may have "appeared" to disagree with/ or not
>>fully align with the claims of Bailey. I suspect that much of the
>>*denials* come from later Theosophists and their own interpretations. Be
>
>Many students on this list are tired to fight over and over again the same
>old battles. OK, here are only two out of the many paragraphs of HPB about
>the return of Christ:
>
>"Judge for yourself. I write in every letter that a divine Christ (or
>Christos) has never existed under a human form outside the imagination of
>blasphemers who have carnalized a universal and entirely impersonal
>principle."
>Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. IX:223
>
>"'The coming of Christ', means the presence of CHRISTOS in a regenerated
>world, and not at all the actual coming in body of 'Christ' Jesus."
>Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. VIII:174
>
>So, Todd, you have here a direct word from HPB herself, insofar as you a
>sceptic about later Theosophists. Had the neo-theosophists would have take
>care to study and understand the texts of HPB in its real sense and not only
>from dead letter reading perhaps they would have been not so fast to make
>false claims and terrorize the people with they twisted stuff. Besides, all
>the pseudo-Theosophists, which aim it was and still is to destroy HPB's work
>and turn the Theosophical Movement into the ranks of the Jesuits (Rome),
>claimed to have higher and much more advanved and "ascended" (to where?)
>Masters as HPB had.
>
>
>>that as it may, I am reaching over and pulling out the first book in my
>>vicinity ("The Key to Theosophy"), open it to page 288 and the following
>>chapter, to read all about an *absolute* affirmation of the existence of
>>Mahatmas and Adepts, all belonging to a "White Lodge", a Brotherhood if you
>>will, and references made to different grades of individuals such as
>>Adepts, Chelas, Chohans, Mahatmas, Initiates and Masters. In this sense,
>>Blavatsky has *entirely* established the existence of the Hierarchy. The
>
>That is your interpretation, Theosophists have another one. In nature there
>exists no hierarchy as claimed by AB/AAB/CWL. And HPB is supported in this
>view by her successors. So, why do you want me to believe the false claims
>of Bailey and Creme that there is such kind as an occult officers
>bureaucracy.
>
>
>>fact that Bailey comes later and fills in the role of some members within
>>that Hierarchy serves as no contradiction to H.P.B. The fact that H.P.B.
>
>It does. HPB was the first one. If another one comes later and claims to
>have the same teachers or even higher teachers as HPB has had, we have the
>right to ask to explain the contradictions. And if I get no good answer
>which is sound and which satisfies my mind and my heart as well and if I see
>that these contradictions results in exoteric misunderstanding of the
>esoteric truths HPB brought I am forced to believe that the claims of Bailey
>and Creme are false and a spiritual theft and crime.
>
>> Furthermore, you state that "HPB taught further and in contradiction to
>>the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
>>return." Respectfully, I doubt that Blavatsky was privy to the entire Plan
>>as known by the Hierarchy and was given only that which was her duty to
>>reveal. The Plan is a dynamic evolving thing, subject to change given the
>
>That does not alter the fact that Bailey do not know details of the plan
>which HPB and her successors knew. And the fact that she revealed not all
>she knew si no excuse that people like Bailey which claimed to have the same
>or higher knowledge as HPB are trying to confirm on the dead letter plane
>but fail to grasp the esoteric meaning. And Bailey is purely exoteric. She
>did not add one sententce tothe work of HPB which is true, and that what
>Bailey wrote true, is not new and was simply copied from HPB.
>
>
>>response (quicker or slower) of humanity, etc. Remember that the world
>>wars followed after Blavatsky had already passed on and a tremendous change
>>was occuring in the world. Bailey states that the Plan evolved and that
>>the Christ made the decision to return in the physical in 1945. Maybe she
>
>As Benjamin Creme has three times false announced the return of Christ (or
>what he believes it is) in the last years I conclude that the return of
>Christ in 1945 was a failure? This poppycock smacks as the same black magic
>as Bailey's "Invocation". You are you and your background powers that you
>try to blow out the real spiritual light out of humanity and try to force
>them to believe in the outer imaginations of the astral powers? Is Share
>indirectly paid by Rome?
>
>>Yes, and this holds true for many who would claim not to be a theosophist.
>>But she is not necessarily the *only* messenger. History has proven that
>>great teachers come time and time again. We are in a profound period of
>>time. There are many amazing things occurring in the world that clearly
>>reach beyond the limits of what Blavatsky had to say. What about Sai Baba?
>>Premananda? Paramahansa Yogananda? Mother Meera? Maitreya? Bailey?
>>Krishnamurti? Muktananda? Blah, Blah, Blah. Blavatsky laid powerful
>>foundations for the New Age, I don't think that is in dispute. But surely
>
>You can believe in any person you like and regard him/her as messenger. But
>when a Theosophist uses the term he/she means it in its technical sense and
>that is one who was taught and trained and ordered in the same ashram as HPB
>was the same doctrines with the same message, not otherwise. A Theosophist
>does not use the term for self appointed people or such people who may have
>some insight of any degree. That is another reason for me to be sceptical
>about the claims of Bailey and Creme: How is it possible that they have
>inner knowledge and that they have knowledge about the same doctrines as HPB
>had if they even do not know what for HPB was a messenger?
>Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From kellogg@west.net Wed Oct 18 07:40:39 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
References: <3.0.5.32.20001017062114.007ee100@mail.telusplanet.net> <200010170423_MC2-B72C-AFB0@compuserve.com> <3.0.5.32.20001017212932.007f5330@mail.telusplanet.net>
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From: Spencer 

Here is some more information regarding Appolonius of Tyana.

http://www.theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/ApolloniusOfTyana.htm

ssk

Todd Lorentz wrote:

> Hi mkr,
>
> The first information on Appolonius is of Tyana is from Share International
> Magazine. I have the article and can send it to you if you request it.
> The information on The Master Jesus is in "Maitreya's Mission, Volume II"
> by Benjamin Creme, page 69.
>
> Sincerely,
> Todd
>
> At 08:13 AM 17/10/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 06:21 AM 10/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >>As an aside, it was also stated that "Jesus" incarnated again several
> >decades after the crucifixion as Appolonius of Tyanna and took the 5th
> >initiation. The One who was "Jesus" is now a Great Chohan, 6th degree
> >initiate, at the Head of the 6th Ray ashram in the Hierarchy and works
> >closely with the Christ.
> >
> >>Todd
> >
> >I would like to know where the above information is written up.
> >
> >mkr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 07:54:37 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:57:14 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Todd,

True. Alice Bailey is only for some. I have found the materials wonderful,
well organized, to say the least, and the best source of information on the
ancient wisdom in English that is available. I have also read all of HPB's
texts several times over a twenty-five year period and they are the best
too. HPB communicates with the academic community and Bailey gives indepth
knowedge to those who accept what HPB writes and wish to go further into the
studies. HPB gives oodles of references and Bailey gives only a few. HPB
let's scholars know of the ancient wisdom teachings and Bailey then gives
forth the teachings in the english language. HPB points out that all of the
available sources are veiled or distorted by overly zealous editors, etc.
and Bailey gives out a set of books that can sooth that source of angst.
One set is more suitable to the intellectual/academic community and is
written primarily for them; the other for the intuitive community who have
already been convinced by HPB that theosophy is where it is at.

This is all mere opinion which counts for little within this field. Each
lives their own life and wisely is lead to think for themselves. There are
different ashrams and as in the exoteric churches it is often the least
knowledgable that are the most in conflict with each other and with the
other sects/ashrams. Rational minds converge. I may not be there now, but
I'll meet you there. There are those who love HPB and don't love Bailey.
There are those who love Bailey but don't love HPB. There are those who
love and respect both. Anyway, for all of us it can be an exercise in
tolerlance; an opportunity to learn from one another.

Gene


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 08:01:30 2000
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To: 
References: <8sjf3d+t8dq@eGroups.com> <010f01c038ef$c7668da0$91de603e@FrankReitemeyer>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:05:18 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities of
Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. There are Initiates of White
Magic and Black Magic are there not?

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler


> Shampan,
> Hitler and Stalin were the greatest mass murders in the 20th Century.
Hitler
> has killed around 6 Millions, Stalins is said to have executed 70-100
> Millions.



From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 18 08:06:43 2000
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Subject: Levels of initiation...
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From: Arthur Gregory 

The discussion regarding who was what level of initiation be it second,
sixth or seventh seems to me to bring disrepute on Theosophy. Most
students in the East as well as the West today of oriental philosophy
will have little to do with these occult findings. Years ago there was
an understanding that Theosophy was a kind of Lodge oragnizaion and
people associate secrecy and levels of initiation with Lodges as in
Rosicrucian Orders and so forth, but these things I think have been
brought into disrepute.

What I am trying to articulate is that during the early theosophy
movement there was the beginning of exposure to early translations of
Buddhist, Hindu scriptures and philosophy and people in the West began
to color these philosophys with their earlier exposure to western
esoteric traditions as well as spiritualism and such. To me this is the
excess backage of our movemnet that needs to be shucked off. We can
still refer to it as an interesting historical antedote but it really
as no place in relating to current discoveries in the fields of
religious studies.

There are many fine products of study of Tibetan Buddhism and other
fields and so on that we have today and they do not confirm much of the
romantic occultism that was used a hundred years ago. 


With all due respect to the efforts of our seers and their
contributions, I think much of what they have written should be
dispensed with or relegated to a section of historical interest and
leave it at that.


- Art

=====
"Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world."

- Bhakta-Parijna: 91

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Wed Oct 18 08:23:40 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <00d001c0384c$1ed1a6a0$8fde603e@FrankReitemeyer>
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From: ernesto 


Frank Reitemeyer wrote:

> One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is described
> here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by the
> original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in contradiction to
> the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will NOT
> return.

Frank, could you tell us what exactly HPB said on the matter?. If Christ was
not a person, what he was? Maybe just a symbol in literature? Did HPB said
that?

Thanks,

David C.



From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 18 08:51:26 2000
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Subject: Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Spencer  wrote:
> Here is some more information regarding Appolonius of Tyana.
> 
> http://www.theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/ApolloniusOfTyana.htm
> 
> ssk
> 

Thanks for the citation on Apollonius Spencer! It's one of the best 
I've seen! 

- Art


999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 08:54:53 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:54:37 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
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From: Drpsionic@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/00 10:04:36 AM Central Daylight Time, 
Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes:

<< My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities of
Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. >>

I have it on high authority that they were not, but it made for a good prank 
to let people think they were.

Chuck the Heretic

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 08:55:07 2000
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To: 
Cc: , "Esoteric Science" , "Kim Poulsen" , , "dana drake" , 
References: <200010171117_MC2-B740-19F8@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:57:48 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Yes. I have found the Bailey work to be much more compatible with
artists/intuitives/psychologists/anthropologists and HPB's work better for
scientists/physicists/political leaders. HPB confronts the exoteric
objective world view. AAB/DK re-affirms the subjective world view, the
basis of the objective world view. HPB was a dynamic leader and
intellectual and Bailey/DK a scholar/teacher. HPB wrote that anyone who
can harmonize the conflict between the philosophies of Leibniz and Spinoza
will have the whole spirit of esoteric philosophy. She writes that Leibniz
was an objective pantheist and Spinoza a subjective pantheist. Leibniz's
philosophy is the basis for Superstring theory; Spinoza's, the transpersonal
soul knowledge behind the scenes, intuitive, beyond all actual thought. The
objective world view is a work in progress. It is evolving. The subjective
world view has been in place for thousands and thousands of years and is not
a matter of opinion but the product of deduction from the self-evident truth
that lives in the hearts of all (wo)men everywhere. There is simply this.

The Law: Love
The subjective expression
The objective expression

and

The harmonization of the subjective with the objective, the healing of the
Descartesian divide.

and

The further expression of this harmony within our personal lives.

The AAB/HBP conflict is in parallel with the subjective world view/objective
world view problem. It is the Higher Self that knows the solution to this
problem. It is simple:(beyond all belief, beyond all possible thought)
Love. Can we find the transpersonal will to do so?

Gene




----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathleen Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


> Not being the intellectual some of you are, still I would say it is to be
> found in the Bailey work. Kat in Italy
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 08:57:10 2000
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To: 
References: <200010180347_MC2-B759-A4C0@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:59:14 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Kat,

Thanks for your voice on this list.

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathleen Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 12:47 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


> Re Hitler and Stalin...
>
> Frankly it is quite accurate to note that Dark Masters overshadow those
> with a degree of initiation...who have opened themselves to evil
> ....manipulation as separate from Service. And the actual battle (as the
> Baghavad Gita describes) is quite powerful and may well go on lifetimes.
>
> That's why the Great Invocation in Triangles can have such power. It can
> help to "seal the door where evil dwells" in all of us who are still
caught
> up in that Kurukshutra or battleground and need the stabilizing force of
> the "higher" energies.
>
> But the point is what b. creme said regarding the degrees of Initiation
> carried by the Buddha and the Christ. People of varying abilities
> sometimes have accurate information, but I often wonder if this isn't our
> generations fruitless discussions about "how many angels can dance on the
> head of a pin". After all, who are we to really decide someone else's
> degrees. Particlarly those Entities. It is enough to work on oneself. I
> do however love to read of the Wesak Ceremony and would love someday to
> enter in that Valley for that Rite.
>
> Years ago I tried to produce a film set in India and Tibet based on an old
> spiritual adventure set in those areas. It may yet be.
>
> Love and Light, from kat in italy
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 09:09:07 2000
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To: 
References:  <3.0.3.32.20001017100958.007b69e0@mail.eden.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:12:54 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Hey! I live in Long Beach. I used to live in Lakewood on South Street.
Please contact me with more information as to meeting times etc. I don't
charge for my gorgeous insights, incredible knowlege or unbelievable wit
either. In fact I'll pay people just to listen!

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?


> At 06:51 AM 10/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >Methods employed for understanding Theosophy.
> >Study groups is one:
> >Sush as;
> >Long Beach Theosophy Center
> >3127 South St.
> >Long beach, Ca. 90805
> >Student sponserd and open to all.
> >It works!
> >e-mail inquirs welcome.
>
> Wonderful. In this day and age when $$$$$$$$ rules, it is a breath of
fresh
> air!
>
> mkr
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 09:14:46 2000
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References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <3.0.5.32.20001017212006.007f3100@mail.telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:16:54 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks Todd.

Gene


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Todd Lorentz" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey




From shampan@zip.com.au Wed Oct 18 09:40:41 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World: The Christ Principle
References: <39EC650E.8808D666@bmu.com.pe> <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <3.0.5.32.20001017235801.007f0d10@mail.telusplanet.net>
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Dear Mr Lorentz,

I agree with your conclusion, but I think much more simply,
perhaps because my knowledge of "grammatical Theology" is zero.

Is there no mention in the aramaic scriptures of a note "The
messenger is not important"..?

Another view. Jesus his name, and the title.. Christ (the Greek
philosophers called him, I wonder if it was more with a stern of
doubt and mockery by them).meaning the Messiah. .. If Jesus ever
himself claimed to be anything else, don't you think they would
use that claim in Greek to do the titling?

> Also, on page 344 he says:
> "Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded
> Christians
> know that the real *Christ* of every Christian is the *Vach*,
> 'the mystical
> Voice,' [the *Word*, Logos, jivatman...] while the man *Jeshu*
> was but a
> mortal like any of us, an adept more by his inherent purity and
> ignorance
> of real Evil, than by what he had learned with hisinitiated
> Rabbis and the
> already (at that period) fast degenerating Egyptian Hierophants
> and
> priests. ..."
>
> Todd

--------------3C0B71CBD1B8A1D9A1D59296
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Dear Mr Lorentz,

I agree with your conclusion, but I think much more simply, perhaps
because my knowledge of "grammatical Theology" is zero.

Is there no mention in the aramaic scriptures of a note "The messenger
is not important"..?

Another view. Jesus his name, and the title.. Christ (the Greek philosophers
called him, I wonder if it was more with a stern of doubt and mockery by
them).meaning the Messiah. .. If Jesus ever himself claimed to be anything
else, don't you think they would use that claim in Greek to do the titling?

Also, on page 344 he says:

"Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded
Christians

know that the real *Christ* of every Christian is the *Vach*, 'the
mystical

Voice,' [the *Word*, Logos, jivatman...] while the man *Jeshu*
was but a

mortal like any of us, an adept more by his inherent purity and
ignorance

of real Evil, than by what he had learned with hisinitiated Rabbis
and the

already (at that period) fast degenerating Egyptian Hierophants
and

priests. ..."

Todd



--------------3C0B71CBD1B8A1D9A1D59296--

From KArc@compuserve.com Wed Oct 18 09:54:48 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:35:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Hi Gene -- We all love to be appreciated. Thank you too. Kat

From shampan@zip.com.au Wed Oct 18 10:04:19 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:01:21 +1000
Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan
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Subject: Mr Gregory.. :))
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

Mr Gregory wrote:
"What I am trying to articulate is that during the early
theosophy
movement there was the beginning of exposure to early
translations of
Buddhist, Hindu scriptures and philosophy and people in the West
began
to color these philosophys with their earlier exposure to western

esoteric traditions as well as spiritualism and such."

Mr Gregory.. you have really done it. This is a thread I wish to
get up on. With due respect to all religions, most are practised
with the superficial guidelines and regulations and the most
insignificant issues of them. Rather than what was the
core-material or objective...My view of course.

Emphasis so much on the Theosophical "terms", or
"personalities"(who tried to explain the root concept in their
own view, not saying they are wrong, but only ONE view of a much
larger concept) seems just as much a .. mistake. The concept of
spiritualism, Theosophy, Philosophy.. is not so complicated.
While their motives might be good, they try to explain in various
words, making it more "off-track" from the main concept.. most
likely not intentionally.


From shampan@zip.com.au Wed Oct 18 10:26:53 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/18/00 10:04:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
> Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes:
>
> << My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were
> personalities of
> Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. >>
>
> I have it on high authority that they were not, but it made for
> a good prank
> to let people think they were.

> Chuck the Heretic

This one, I am with you Mr Heretic.

There are 2 reasons why I think Hitler should not be a closed
chapter for future generations.

1. Truth should not be distorted, however good your motive might
be to re-write history in twisted form, the twist accumulates
more puzzles and later explodes into a much bigger problem than
it originally was. And such a little-big explosion is very
likely happen very soon. I do watch politics too.

2. It is the thought that counts. What is done or how is done is
important in assessment of an individual's deeds. But Why is done
is also. If someone shoots me on my face because he dislikes me,
I am supposed to hate him. But, if someone saves me from death,
only because I am useful to him and later uses me by decieving
me, obscuring his selfish motives, and manages to keep on fooling
me, while he remains "noble in appearance", should I like him?
(please, these discussions are all hypothetical, personally I
still love everyone)

It is the thought that counts, let me present an example, a
scientist invents a GM crop that will solve the problems of the
starving world, good deed; he gets a Peace prize, but deep
inside.. his only motive(s) might have been,

1. He was trying to impress the female lab assistant whom he
wanted to conquer.

2. He wanted to beat a riva,l whom he hated at the competition of
the invention

3. He wanted a new product to establish an empire of trade, (that
is why he restricted the crop with a patent-right)

4. He was given lot of money by industrialists/Govt., as they
wanted him to create a GM crop so the industries could have more
space to build upon.

Judge most of the big names of history with that view, and our
CIVIL-ization foundation is shaken.

I hope we are still all being chatty.. If someone is getting
hairs-up, I wish to pull back from such threads.


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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/18/00 10:04:36 AM Central
Daylight Time,

Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes:

<< My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities
of

Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge.  >>

I have it on high authority that they were not, but it made for
a good prank

to let people think they were.



Chuck the Heretic

This one, I am with you Mr Heretic.

There are 2 reasons why I think Hitler should not be a closed chapter
for future generations.

1. Truth should not be distorted, however good your motive might be
to re-write history in twisted form, the twist accumulates more puzzles
and later explodes into a much bigger problem than it originally was. And
such a little-big  explosion is very likely happen very soon. I do
watch politics too.

2. It is the thought that counts. What is done or how is done is important
in assessment of an individual's deeds. But Why is done is also. If someone
shoots me on my face because he dislikes me, I am supposed to hate him.
But, if someone saves me from death, only because I am useful to him and
later uses me by decieving me, obscuring his selfish motives, and manages
to keep on fooling me, while he remains "noble in appearance", should I
like him? (please, these discussions are all hypothetical, personally I
still love everyone)

It is the thought that counts, let me present an example, a scientist
invents a GM crop that will solve the problems of the starving world, good
deed; he gets a Peace prize, but deep inside.. his only motive(s) might
have been,

1. He was trying to impress the female lab assistant whom he wanted
to conquer.

2. He wanted to beat a riva,l whom he hated at the competition of the
invention

3. He wanted a new product to establish an empire of trade, (that is
why he restricted the crop with a patent-right)

4. He was given lot of money by industrialists/Govt., as they wanted
him to create a GM crop so the industries could have more space to build
upon.

Judge most of the big names of history with that view, and our CIVIL-ization
foundation is shaken.

I hope we are still all being chatty.. If someone is getting hairs-up,
I wish to pull back from such threads.

 

--------------DC9FEB2C2DC7BAB3D4498422--

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 13:05:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:08:39 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Yes. And we are all still Chuckle-ing. Thanks.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler


> In a message dated 10/18/00 10:04:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
> Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes:
>
> << My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities of
> Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. >>
>
> I have it on high authority that they were not, but it made for a good
prank
> to let people think they were.
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Oct 18 13:18:59 2000
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To: 
References: <200010181236_MC2-B768-5125@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:18:22 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Kat,

You are very welcome.

Gene


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathleen Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


> Hi Gene -- We all love to be appreciated. Thank you too. Kat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 13:48:03 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:47:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
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From: Drpsionic@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/00 12:29:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< But, if someone saves me from death,
only because I am useful to him and later uses me by decieving
me, obscuring his selfish motives, and manages to keep on fooling
me, while he remains "noble in appearance", should I like him? >>

Well, I would consider being saved from death to be something that would 
cover a multitude of motives. Given the choice, I would rather have my life 
saved by someone acting for selfish reasons than be shot by someone acting 
for the good of humanity.

Chuck the Heretic

From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 13:51:12 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:51:02 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World Levels of initiation...
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In a message dated 10/18/00 2:46:50 PM Central Daylight Time, 
arthra999@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
With all due respect to the efforts of our seers and their
contributions, I think much of what they have written should be
dispensed with or relegated to a section of historical interest and
leave it at that.
>>

HUZZAH!!!!

Chuck the Heretic

From ringding@blinx.de Wed Oct 18 14:51:35 2000
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To: 
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:58:59 +0200
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>We aught not rigidly stand in one spot and crystalize H.P.B.'s works. Tha=
t
>is the real danger here. If we stand in our own little center of the worl=
d
>and claim that we have the last word on esotericism because HPB said it,
>then we have struck the death blow to Theosophy. Theosophy is a "living
>philosophy". It is meant to be lived. It must breathe and grow. If we
>draw rigid lines around HPB's teachings then it will quickly become
>insufficient for a growing humanity. Granted, we must also be careful not
>substantiate every little self-proclaimed guru that comes along. Always
>the need for open-minded discrimination.=20
>
>Todd=20=20

The make-believe of the return of Christ is for me black magic, either if y=
ou like the words or not.
It is not those who protect HPB that crystalize her, but those who try to l=
ay her words in her mouth in direction of Christ and believe in Hierarchies=
and outer authorities. That is the Vatican line. For HPB it is the dugpa l=
ine. For me too. You are right, I know you not personally but I claim the s=
ame right as you to speak out here. What motive you have or not have is not=
my business. I state that you have no arguments against the original quote=
s of HPB against the deadly believe of a Christ. And the Great Invocation i=
s Black Magic, eitehr you like it or not. That is the truth and no crystali=
zation. All people and all organizations which pray down forces from above =
are black for HPB. And also for me.
There are not two truths and you can't rub out the clear teaching HPB gave =
in trying to be liberal and open. When HPB says Christ is no person and wil=
l never return it is very sound and clear and no rhetoric can put it otherw=
ise.
I assume that the Share Organization of Benjamin Creme is one of the many L=
odges of the Jesuits. All what is promtoed by Share and Creme has the handw=
riting of Rome (like most of the UFO scene).
Frank


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>We aught not rigidly stand in one spot and crystalize H.P.B.'s=
=20
works.  That
>is the real danger here.  If we stand in our =
own=20
little center of the world
>and claim that we have the last word on=20
esotericism because HPB said it,
>then we have struck the death blow =
to=20
Theosophy.  Theosophy is a "living
>philosophy".  It is mea=
nt to=20
be lived.  It must breathe and grow.  If we
>draw rigid lin=
es=20
around HPB's teachings then it will quickly become
>insufficient for =
a=20
growing humanity.  Granted, we must also be careful not
>substan=
tiate=20
every little self-proclaimed guru that comes along.  Always
>the=
need=20
for open-minded discrimination. 
>
>Todd  


The make-believe of the return of Christ is for=
me=20
black magic, either if you like the words or not.


It is not those who protect HPB that crystalize=
her,=20
but those who try to lay her words in her mouth in direction of Christ and=
=20
believe in Hierarchies and outer authorities. That is the Vatican line. For=
HPB=20
it is the dugpa line. For me too. You are right, I know you not personally =
but I=20
claim the same right as you to speak out here. What motive you have or not =
have=20
is not my business. I state that you have no arguments against the original=
=20
quotes of HPB against the deadly believe of a Christ. And the Great Invocat=
ion=20
is Black Magic, eitehr you like it or not. That is the truth and no=20
crystalization. All people and all organizations which pray down forces fro=
m=20
above are black for HPB. And also for me.


There are not two truths and you can't rub out =
the=20
clear teaching HPB gave in trying to be liberal and open. When HPB says Chr=
ist=20
is no person and will never return it is very sound and clear and no rhetor=
ic=20
can put it otherwise.


I assume that the Share Organization of Benjami=
n Creme=20
is one of the many Lodges of the Jesuits. All what is promtoed by Share and=
=20
Creme has the handwriting of Rome (like most of the UFO=20
scene).


Frank


 


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From ringding@blinx.de Wed Oct 18 14:51:36 2000
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To: 
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:08:44 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

>ancient wisdom in English that is available. I have also read all of HPB's
>texts several times over a twenty-five year period and they are the best
>too. HPB communicates with the academic community and Bailey gives indepth

That is your opninon, Eugene. I have read both writers too and I came to
otehr conclusions. There is nothing of really worth in the Bailey writings,
all Theosophy simplified and distorted on the dead letter plane. No life in
it.
The Edmonton TS has the reprint of "The Pseudo-Occultism of Mrs. A Bailey"
in its programe. Very helpful for beginners to open the eyes and look
deeper.
There you find in the intro by the authors, wellknown Theosophists Alice L.
Cleather (HPB pupil) and Basil Crump, a quote from Master KH from p. 322 of
the Mahatma letter, why Bailey forced the Christian church sheme under the
mask and with the terms of HPB:
"'The opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have
enthusiastic help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan an the Vatican!' - Hence the
Christian terminology that characterises some of their efforts in the realm
of Occultism."

>love and respect both. Anyway, for all of us it can be an exercise in
>tolerlance; an opportunity to learn from one another.

I agree, everyone is free to follow whom he wants, but the border line is
when such teachings like those are labeled as Theosophy and therefore
misleads the public.
Steiner too changed the teachings like AAB, but he was so fair to give it a
new name. If Bailey would have labeled it XYZ, then no Theosophist would be
forced to protest.
Frank



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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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>The AAB/HBP conflict is in parallel with the subjective world view/objecti=
ve
>world view problem. It is the Higher Self that knows the solution to this
>problem. It is simple:(beyond all belief, beyond all possible thought)
>Love. Can we find the transpersonal will to do so?
>
>Gene

False. Either the idea of a personal God and the worship of him (and his ag=
ents on Earth) is true or it is as Master KH and HPB wrote a nightmare's dr=
eam. That is not the problem of being subjetive or objective, it is a matte=
r of truth. And since Alice Bailey dreamed of the revitalization of the Vat=
ican in the 1960's (her ex-secretary Dr. Bratina, later becoming a Theosoph=
ist in Italy, confirms that as eye-witness) and taught a personal God and c=
laimed to have received this form the same or even higher source ("The Tibe=
tan"!!) as HPB, Bailey is for me one of the outer tools of the Dark Lodge, =
working to destroy the Theosophical Movement, which teaches freedom from th=
e God nightmare.
Frank


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>The AAB/HBP conflict is in parallel with the subjective world=
=20
view/objective
>world view problem.  It is the Higher Self that =
knows=20
the solution to this
>problem.  It is simple:(beyond all belief,=
=20
beyond all possible thought)
>Love.  Can we find the transperson=
al=20
will to do so?
>
>Gene


False. Either the idea of a personal God and th=
e=20
worship of him (and his agents on Earth) is true or it is as Master KH and =
HPB=20
wrote a nightmare's dream. That is not the problem of being subjetive or=20
objective, it is a matter of truth. And since Alice Bailey dreamed of the=20
revitalization of the Vatican in the 1960's (her ex-secretary Dr. Bratina, =
later=20
becoming a Theosophist in Italy, confirms that as eye-witness) and taught a=
=20
personal God and claimed to have received this form the same or even higher=
=20
source ("The Tibetan"!!) as HPB, Bailey is for me one of the outer too=
ls of=20
the Dark Lodge, working to destroy the Theosophical Movement, which teaches=
=20
freedom from the God nightmare.


Frank


 


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From ringding@blinx.de Wed Oct 18 14:53:26 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <00d001c0384c$1ed1a6a0$8fde603e@FrankReitemeyer> <39EC79B9.F1D6D2A2@bmu.com.pe>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:11:01 +0200
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>Frank, could you tell us what exactly HPB said on the matter?. If Christ =
was
>not a person, what he was? Maybe just a symbol in literature? Did HPB sai=
d
>that?
>
>Thanks,
>
>David C.

Look into Index of BCW under Christ, you'll find much. Examples:

"Judge for yourself. I write in every letter that a divine Christ (or
Christos) has never existed under a human form outside the imagination of
blasphemers who have carnalized a universal and entirely impersonal
principle."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. IX:223

"'The coming of Christ', means the presence of CHRISTOS in a regenerated
world, and not at all the actual coming in body of 'Christ' Jesus."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. VIII:174

Best, Frank


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>Frank, could you tell us what exactly HPB said on the=20
matter?.  If Christ was
>not a person, what he was? Maybe just a=
=20
symbol in literature?  Did HPB=20
said
>that?
>
>Thanks,
>
>David C.


Look into Index of BCW under Christ, you'll find much.=20
Examples:


 


"Judge for yourself. I write in every letter that a divine Christ=
=20
(or
Christos) has never existed under a human form outside the imaginati=
on=20
of
blasphemers who have carnalized a universal and entirely=20
impersonal
principle."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol.=20
IX:223

"'The coming of Christ', means the presence of CHRISTOS in a=
=20
regenerated
world, and not at all the actual coming in body of 'Christ'=
=20
Jesus."
Blavatsky:Collected Writings, Vol. VIII:174


Best, Frank


 


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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:28:11 -0700
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From: "Dennis Kier" 


----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Reitemeyer 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


> Todd wrote:
> > Benjamin Creme's Master has stated that Maitreya is a 7th
degree
> >initiate and that the Buddha is an 8th degree initiate. Maitreya
and the
>
> For Benjamin Creme also such guys as Hitler and Stalin are high
initiates,
> so how trustful is he?
>
> >energy of Love which He embodies. The Buddha acts as an
intermediary
> >between the Hierarchy (with Maitreya at its Head in the Office of
the
> >Christ) and Shamballa.
>
> One should bear in mind that such a kind of Hierarchy which is
described
> here and was taught by AB/AAB/CWL and the like is NOT supported by
the
> original Theosophy by HPB. And HPB taught further and in
contradiction to
> the later claims of AB/AAB/CWL that Christ was no person and will
NOT
> return.
>
> > Maitreya is the "World Teacher" for this age and sits at the
head of the
> >Hierarchy as the "Eldest" of the *Human* family. The Buddhist's
have His
>
> But for many Theosophists it is Madame Blavatsky who served as the
messenger
> for the new age...
> Frank
>


I seem to recall that HPB said that when the Masters acted through
her, for their teachings, and the letters she conveyed to others,
these teachings picked up things from her own consciousness,
especially if the Master was not in good command of the language that
was being written in.

She said that she had to get the throught, and then form it in
English, in her mind, to put it down on paper. So those teachings that
came through her picked up a great deal of her beliefs and her culture
mixed in with the culture of the Masters.

If AAB was getting the same messages, in the same way, then one could
expect the teachings and writings to be tinged with the language,
thought patterns, and background of AAB when they appeared on paper.

So, it would seem to me that the criticism of those who knew and
worked with HPB that the new teachings were not identical with the
thought patterns of HPB, would be quite valid, and in fact, if what
HPB said about the transmission was true, if the thought patterns were
identical with those of HPB, you could strongly suggest that it was
bogus. If, on the other hand, it was different, and mirrored the
patterns of AAB, it would be possible that it came from a similar
source.

Is it possible that the piece byAlice Leighton Cleather and Basil
Crump is a "spin" job by those who wish to deify HPB. The charge that
there was a group in the TS that wanted to deify HPB was made by
Olcott, as justification for his writing of The Old Diary Leaves. This
was, of course, before his death, so he was aware of a movement within
the organization of down-grading any other writing, and accepting the
writings of HPB as the only divinely inspired writing permitted within
the organization.

It is interesting to see all the writings of individuals within the
various branches of the organization, that are accepted by some and
rejected by others right down to this day.

I feel that I can read all the field and use my own intuition to
determine what feels right, and what doesn't, just as COMPILER says
she did.

Dennis




From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Wed Oct 18 17:02:26 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
In-Reply-To: <001f01c03913$dd61f440$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us>
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EC5AA4.DB08D020@wisdomworld.org>
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Gene,

Beautifully expressed. Thank you for your wonderful insight.

With deepest regards,
Todd

At 07:57 AM 18/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Todd,
>
>True. Alice Bailey is only for some. I have found the materials wonderful,
>well organized, to say the least, and the best source of information on the
>ancient wisdom in English that is available. I have also read all of HPB's
>texts several times over a twenty-five year period and they are the best
>too. HPB communicates with the academic community and Bailey gives indepth
>knowedge to those who accept what HPB writes and wish to go further into the
>studies. HPB gives oodles of references and Bailey gives only a few. HPB
>let's scholars know of the ancient wisdom teachings and Bailey then gives
>forth the teachings in the english language. HPB points out that all of the
>available sources are veiled or distorted by overly zealous editors, etc.
>and Bailey gives out a set of books that can sooth that source of angst.
>One set is more suitable to the intellectual/academic community and is
>written primarily for them; the other for the intuitive community who have
>already been convinced by HPB that theosophy is where it is at.
>
>This is all mere opinion which counts for little within this field. Each
>lives their own life and wisely is lead to think for themselves. There are
>different ashrams and as in the exoteric churches it is often the least
>knowledgable that are the most in conflict with each other and with the
>other sects/ashrams. Rational minds converge. I may not be there now, but
>I'll meet you there. There are those who love HPB and don't love Bailey.
>There are those who love Bailey but don't love HPB. There are those who
>love and respect both. Anyway, for all of us it can be an exercise in
>tolerlance; an opportunity to learn from one another.
>
>Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Wed Oct 18 17:08:43 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Gene,

That is my understanding also. The Black Lodge uses a form of
"overshadowing" which infringes, in a subtle way, upon the freewill of the
individual. The White Lodge has more "restrictions" on their opportunities
because they will not infringe upon the freewill of individuals. In either
case, the individual needs to be advanced or sensitive enough (initiate or
near-initiate) to maintain any form of contact or influence.

Todd

At 08:05 AM 18/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities of
>Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. There are Initiates of White
>Magic and Black Magic are there not?
>
>Gene
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:18 AM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
>
>
>> Shampan,
>> Hitler and Stalin were the greatest mass murders in the 20th Century.
>Hitler
>> has killed around 6 Millions, Stalins is said to have executed 70-100
>> Millions.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Wed Oct 18 17:43:15 2000
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Subject: The Doctrine of Avataras and the Christ
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Hi Todd and Hi everyone:


Todd Lorentz wrote:

>
> Jesus did not *have* to die on the cross. That was a choice made by
> the authorities of the time. Jesus did not simply come to demonstrate a
> few initiations and then get crucified. He came as a teaching disciple,
> like many before and after Him, in Service to the Plan and to Humanity.
> That He was crucified and martyred for His teaching is not an unusual
> occurance throughout history. For an example of this, look at what the
> "authorities" attempted to do to H.P.B.
>

When we look at the Sacrifice in Ancient Religions, being it a self-sacrifi=
ce
or a narration of a divine tragedy (f.e., the sacrifice of Osiris, Purusha,
Chronos, and others), we are ALWAYS in presence of a cosmological event, a
fundamental Day in the Sacred History (or Cosmo-History). It is known too =
that
sacred rituals had the mission to make this sacrifice ACTUAL (making that
Primordial Day or that Primordial Events present in the ordinary present).

That is the case of the Mass since nearly two thousand years ago, and the
case, in other traditions, of other ceremonies.

The Jews had a sacrificial rite, their national day, when they celebrated (=
as a
fundamental day in their sacred history) the Day when Moises gave freedom t=
o
the Jews and they departed from Egypt.

I am not saying nothing new. This is known in the anthropology of religion=
s
and the studies about the estructure of the Religious Cosmovision.

In this line of thougts, we can understand why the entirety of Christianism=
, as
an Ancient Religion, is built upon two facts: the Death of Christ and His
Resurrection. In accordance to the words of the Bible, these were the firs=
t
facts communicated by the Disciples when they received the Holy Spirit. An=
d
these were also the first facts communicated in Athens by St. Paul, when he
talked about the "Insaness of the Cross".

Not only that. St. Paul says that by the Cross and Resurrection of Christ,=
we
are not only saved of the "original sin", but we are made "sons of God".

What I trie to say is that the Death of Christ, for those who believe that
there really was a death, couldn=B4t be interpreted, saying at the same tim=
e that
we are making a correct interpretation of the Sacred Truth behind the Bible=
, as
a "contingency" (a matter of bad luck, or a merely prophan fact of injustic=
e).

I mean, a prophan scientist or a prophan philosopher will probably say that
Jesus was merely a good person that suffered an injustice in an ancient tri=
al.

But if we suppose that the Bible, as the Vedas, the Koran, the Tripitaka an=
d so
on, contain the same and old Sacred Truth (or esoterical truth), then we wi=
ll
have to say that the same truth is everywere, with different words, differe=
nt
methods of realization, different adaptations of doctrine, and different
emphasis, but always the same. I think that is our point of view.

So, in this point of viwe, we can recognize little real differences, but th=
e
fundamental truths in every Tradition. Fundamentally, then, each one is
doctrinally correct.

Under this supposition, that is yours and mine I think, wouldn=B4t we agree=
that
if we say the Death of Christ was nothing but an injustice in a trial, mere=
ly
"a choice made by the authorities of the time", then we will have to say
honestly that the fundamentals of Christianity as a Supposed Sacred Traditi=
on,
are wrong? Isn=B4t it still clearer if we say, as HPB, that a Divine Chris=
t was
never in a person?

Because if those opinions were true, and if we are not only honest but also
coherent people, what is then the rest of Truth in Christianism -and I am n=
ot
talking about the exoterical actual christianism, but of its same Sacred
Texts-? It will appear as a Mainly False Doctrine that has, there and ther=
e,
merely some little pieces of truth.

It could be so, of course. But then we will have to say things clear.

The question is:

1. Are we making an interpretation of the authentical doctrine of the Bible=
?
-that supposes, in the beginning, a biblical point of view, of course!-, or
2. Are we making other thing?

Biblically talking, where can we find that the Death of the Christ was mere=
ly
"a choice made by the authorities of the time"? We find, in dozens of plac=
es,
other thing. A Sacred fact, a Cosmological fact. A Mistery.

Just as in the case of the sacrifice of Osiris, Purusha, and so on.

Then, if the death of the Christ really means much more than a prophan
political fact, there is still something amazing.

In the case of Osiris, Purusha, Orfeo, Krishna and so on, we recognize that=
we
are in front of "Myths". I use this word not to mean stupid ideas of old n=
on
scientist men, of course. I use this word in its sacred meaning. Seeing M=
yths
not in a prophane point of view, but in a deeper, esoterical, point of view=
.

I said that in those cases we are in front of myths, because in their
respective Traditions, that was the function of those histories.

In the case of Christianism, however, at the same time that the history of
Christ has the same function, it is said by the Bible, and His Disciples, t=
hat
this is a real history. Real milacres, real Death, real Resurrection.

That is the particularity of christianism among the Holy Sacrifices in Anci=
ent
Traditions, as I see it.

So, if we certainly can recognize ancient mythical teachings in the Life of
Christ, there is a question that remains unsolved ... Why did this histor=
y
went beyond the Myth and ended in the Real Death of Christ? There must be,
then, something more.

If we accept that we can=B4t be biblically correct if we say that a Divine =
Christ
didn=B4t exist, or if we say that there was no death, or that there was mer=
ely a
death, will we have to choice between Christianism and Oriental Teachings? =
Is
that a neccesary choice?

I think no.

The same Orient Doctrines teaches that Avataras exist. Everything indicate=
s
then, under a biblical point of view integrated in a Universal Tradition, t=
hat
Christ was an Avatara. A very High Avatara. And the death of such an Avat=
ara
in the Earth, going beyond the Myth, must have a essential and very great
meaning. I understand, then, that Rudolf Steiner centred Antroposophy in t=
he
explanation of the Misteries of Christ. I don=B4t mean, of course, that he=
was
in the right explanation.

So I think we have a third biblically supported option: not only the choice
between Christianism or Oriental Doctrines.

But if this third option is to recognize that Christ was an Avatara (a very
High Avatara), then many things must be questioned. Because it means that =
the
Christ was not a 7th degree human iniciate. Also, that the Christ is not a
Buddha.

That does not mean that the doctrine of Christ is higher than the Doctrine =
of
Budism. May be the mission of such an Avatara was not specifically to foun=
d a
new esoterical doctrine, and that doctrine -that existed- was an accidental
(altough important) fact in his mission. May be his mission was after all
specifically His Life, for purposes that we don=B4t know except in biblical
fraseology.

In accordance to Buddhism, as far as I can understand, there are a lot of
beings higher than the human being. But at the same time, when a human bei=
ng,
or any other being, "illuminates", reaches not the following grade on that
scale (such a scale still belongs to the relative universe of Maya, of eter=
nal
Manvantara). Illumination means getting out of any scale, of any relative
universe, reaching the Infinite there where one is now.

Imagine that letters represent beings ( letter c represents the human being=
,
and letter a represents a simple being). The traditional idea is:



.
.
.
a
b
c -------------------------- Infinite
d
e
f
g
.
.
.

(finite)

Illumination is to reach the Infinite, being a human. Illumination is not =
to
reach state d or f or any other, because who live in d, e or any other fini=
te
state, may well not be illuminated.

So if we recognize that the Christ was a High Avatara, even if we say that =
he
was in Z, and Buddha in C, Buddha is in Infinite. From a christian point o=
f
view, we=B4d have to say that the Christ was in Infinite too.

May this be the beginnig solution to the "problem of Christ"?. Of course, =
the
purpose of his Life, Death and Resurrection still remanins as a Mystery.

I would like to have an open discussion about these matters. A discussion
where if one guives some "interpretation", he says what process and
presuppositions of his lecture, and what texts, guive that conclussion. No=
t
only: "HPB, or AAB, or whosoever, said that".

Friendly,


David C.


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Hi Todd and Hi everyone:

 

Todd Lorentz wrote:

 

    Jesus did not *have* to die on the cross. 
That was a choice made by

the authorities of the time.  Jesus did not simply come to demonstrate
a

few initiations and then get crucified.  He came as a teaching
disciple,

like many before and after Him, in Service to the Plan and to Humanity.

That He was crucified and martyred for His teaching is not an unusual

occurance throughout history.  For an example of this, look at
what the

"authorities" attempted to do to H.P.B.

 

When we look at the Sacrifice in Ancient Religions, being it a self-sacrifice
or a narration of a divine tragedy (f.e., the sacrifice of Osiris, Purusha,
Chronos, and others), we are ALWAYS in presence of a cosmological event,
a fundamental Day in the Sacred History (or Cosmo-History).  It is
known too that sacred rituals had the mission to make this sacrifice ACTUAL
(making that Primordial Day or that Primordial Events present in the ordinary
present).

That is the case of the Mass since nearly  two thousand years ago,
and the case, in other traditions, of other ceremonies.

The Jews had a sacrificial rite, their national day, when they celebrated
(as a fundamental day in their sacred history) the Day when Moises gave
freedom to the Jews and they departed from Egypt.

I am not saying nothing new.  This is known in the anthropology
of religions and the studies about the estructure of the Religious Cosmovision.

In this line of thougts, we can understand why the entirety of Christianism,
as an Ancient Religion, is built upon two facts: the Death of Christ and
His Resurrection.  In accordance to the words of the Bible, these
were the first facts communicated by the Disciples when they received the
Holy Spirit.  And these were also the first facts communicated in
Athens by St. Paul, when he talked about the "Insaness of the Cross".

Not only that.  St. Paul says that by the Cross and Resurrection
of Christ, we are not only saved of the "original sin", but we are made
"sons of God".

What I trie to say is that the Death of Christ, for those who believe
that there really was a death, couldn´t be interpreted,
saying at the same time that we are making a correct interpretation of
the Sacred Truth behind the Bible, as a "contingency" (a matter of bad
luck, or a merely prophan fact of injustice).

I mean, a prophan scientist or a prophan philosopher will probably say
that Jesus was merely a good person that suffered an injustice in an ancient
trial.

But if we suppose that the Bible, as the Vedas, the Koran, the Tripitaka
and so on, contain the same and old Sacred Truth (or esoterical truth),
then we will have to say that the same truth is everywere, with different
words, different methods of realization, different adaptations of doctrine,
and different emphasis, but always the same.  I think that is our
point of view.

So, in this point of viwe, we can recognize little real differences,
but the fundamental truths in every Tradition.  Fundamentally, then,
each one is doctrinally correct.

Under this supposition, that is yours and mine I think, wouldn´t
we agree that if we say the Death of Christ was nothing but an injustice
in a trial, merely "a choice made by the authorities of the time", then
we will have to say honestly that the fundamentals of Christianity
as a Supposed Sacred Tradition, are wrong?  Isn´t it
still clearer if we say, as HPB, that a Divine Christ was never in a person?

Because if those opinions were true, and if we are not only honest but
also coherent people, what is then the rest of Truth in Christianism -and
I am not talking about the exoterical actual christianism, but of its same
Sacred Texts-?  It will appear as a Mainly False Doctrine that has,
there and there, merely some little pieces of truth.

It could be so, of course.  But then we will have to say things
clear.

The question is:

1. Are we making an interpretation of the authentical doctrine of the
Bible? -that supposes, in the beginning, a biblical point of view, of course!-,
or

2.  Are we making other thing?

Biblically talking, where can we find that the Death of the Christ was
merely "a choice made by the authorities of the time"?  We find, in
dozens of places, other thing.  A Sacred fact, a Cosmological fact. 
A Mistery.

Just as in the case of the sacrifice of Osiris, Purusha, and so on.

Then, if the death of the Christ really means much more than a prophan
political fact, there is still something amazing.

In the case of Osiris, Purusha, Orfeo, Krishna and so on, we recognize
that we are in front of "Myths".  I use this word not to mean stupid
ideas of old non scientist men, of course.  I use this word in its
sacred meaning.  Seeing Myths not in a prophane point of view, but
in a deeper, esoterical, point of view.

I said that in those cases we are in front of myths, because in their
respective Traditions, that was the function of those histories.

In the case of Christianism, however, at the same time that the history
of Christ has the same function, it is said by the Bible, and His Disciples,
that this is a real history.  Real milacres, real Death, real Resurrection.

That is the particularity of christianism among the Holy Sacrifices
in Ancient Traditions, as I see it.

So, if we certainly can recognize ancient mythical teachings in the
Life of Christ, there is a question that remains unsolved ...  
Why did this history went beyond the Myth and ended in the Real Death of
Christ?  There must be, then, something more.

If we accept that we can´t be biblically correct if we say that
a Divine Christ didn´t exist, or if we say that there was no death,
or that there was merely a death, will we have to choice between Christianism
and Oriental Teachings?  Is that a neccesary choice?

I think no.

The same Orient Doctrines teaches that Avataras exist.  Everything
indicates then, under a biblical point of view integrated in a Universal
Tradition, that Christ was an Avatara.  A very High Avatara. 
And the death of such an Avatara in the Earth, going beyond the Myth, must
have a essential and very great meaning.  I understand, then, that
Rudolf Steiner centred Antroposophy in the explanation of the Misteries
of Christ.  I don´t mean, of course, that he was in the right
explanation.

So I think we have a third biblically supported option: not only the
choice between Christianism or Oriental Doctrines.

But if this third option is to recognize that Christ was an Avatara
(a very High Avatara), then many things must be questioned.  Because
it means that the Christ was not a 7th degree human iniciate.  Also,
that the Christ is not a Buddha.

That does not mean that the doctrine of Christ is higher than the Doctrine
of Budism.  May be the mission of such an Avatara was not specifically
to found a new esoterical doctrine, and that doctrine -that existed- was
an accidental (altough important) fact in his mission.  May be his
mission was after all specifically His Life, for purposes that we don´t
know except in biblical fraseology.

In accordance to Buddhism, as far as I can understand, there are a lot
of beings higher than the human being.  But at the same time, when
a human being, or any other being, "illuminates", reaches not the
following grade on that scale (such a scale still belongs to the
relative universe of Maya, of eternal Manvantara).  Illumination means
getting out of any scale, of any relative universe, reaching the Infinite
there where one is now.

Imagine that letters represent beings ( letter c represents the human
being, and letter a represents a simple being).  The traditional idea
is:

 

 

.

.

.

a

b

c    -------------------------- Infinite

d

e

f

g

.

.

.

(finite)

Illumination is to reach the Infinite, being a human.  Illumination
is not to reach state d or f or any other, because who live in d, e or
any other finite state, may well not be illuminated.

So if we recognize that the Christ was a High Avatara, even if we say
that he was in Z, and Buddha in C, Buddha is in Infinite.  From a
christian point of view, we´d have to say that the Christ was in
Infinite too.

May this be the beginnig solution to the "problem of Christ"?. 
Of course, the purpose of his Life, Death and Resurrection still remanins
as a Mystery.

I would like to have an open discussion about these matters.  A
discussion where if one guives some "interpretation", he says what process
and presuppositions of his lecture, and what texts, guive that conclussion. 
Not only: "HPB, or AAB, or whosoever, said that".

Friendly,

 

David C.

 

--------------11E227AF28D04E86ED0A1BD7--

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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/18/00 12:29:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
> shampan@zip.com.au writes:
>
> << But, if someone saves me from death,
> only because I am useful to him and later uses me by decieving
> me, obscuring his selfish motives, and manages to keep on
> fooling
> me, while he remains "noble in appearance", should I like him?
> >>
>
> Well, I would consider being saved from death to be something
> that would
> cover a multitude of motives. Given the choice, I would rather
> have my life
> saved by someone acting for selfish reasons than be shot by
> someone acting
> for the good of humanity.
>
> Chuck the Heretic

My view is Sir, if those two are the choices left, we should get
to the rectifying the cause of both, rather than the symptoms.
That is what Theosophy is about .. is it not?

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/18/00 12:29:39 PM Central
Daylight Time,

shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< But, if someone saves me from death,

only because I am useful to him and later uses me by decieving

me, obscuring his selfish motives, and manages to keep on fooling

me, while he remains "noble in appearance", should I like him?
>>

Well, I would consider being saved from death to be something that
would

cover a multitude of motives.  Given the choice, I would rather
have my life

saved by someone acting for selfish reasons than be shot by someone
acting

for the good of humanity.

Chuck the Heretic

My view is Sir, if those two are the choices left, we should get to the
rectifying the cause of both, rather than the symptoms. That is what Theosophy
is about .. is it not?

--------------37494EE4A690EA55B585159A--

From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Oct 18 19:40:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <00d001c0384c$1ed1a6a0$8fde603e@FrankReitemeyer> <000201c03957$08ed95e0$eae9b3d1@u7k5a4>
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Dennis Kier wrote:
> If AAB was getting the same messages, in the same way, then one could
> expect the teachings and writings to be tinged with the language,
> thought patterns, and background of AAB when they appeared on paper.

That has been my supposition, as well. When comparing Blavatsky's 
"inspired" writings vs. her other writings, and comparing Bailey's
"inspired" writings vs. HER other writings, one can see what sort of
things might be edited out. I, for one, notice that Blavatsky made a
concerted effort to supress her personal prejudices; Bailey does not
make anywhere nearly as much of an effort. Her fundamentalist Christian
background, her racism and religionism are apparent in her unchannelled
writings, and can be found in the channeled works, as well, once you
know what to look for. Which, in turn, makes it easier to find the gems
among the chaff (of course, I find far more chaff than most, but that
could be my OWN prejudices....)

Bart Lidofsky

From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Oct 18 20:08:14 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Todd Lorentz wrote:
> At 08:28 PM 17/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> >Todd Lorentz wrote:
> >> For interest's sake:
> >> Benjamin Creme's Master
> >
> > Which one? Money, or Satan? Actually, when you serve the former, you
> >serve the latter, too.

> Please clarify. I'm not sure I understand your direction or intention here.

My direction is that Benjamin Creme is either deluded or a fraud, and
probably the latter. My intention is to make it abundantly clear. 

Share International is all about people sharing their money with
Benjamin Creme. And, as far as Satan goes, read the story in the New
Testament about the temptation of Jesus by Satan, and read the
descriptions of the appearances of the so-called "Maitreya".

Bart Lidofsky

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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Todd Lorentz wrote:
> 
> Hi mkr,
> 
> The first information on Appolonius is of Tyana is from Share International
> Magazine. I have the article and can send it to you if you request it.
> The information on The Master Jesus is in "Maitreya's Mission, Volume II"
> by Benjamin Creme, page 69.

Too bad that, outside of the Gospels, there is not one iota of
historical evidence that Jesus even existed. 

Bart Lidofsky

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Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Abortion and Theosophy
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Dallas Tenbroeck wrote:
> HPB wrote an article which states the attitude of the
> Theosophical philosophy on the subject of abortion.

More precisely, it was part of an ongoing question & answer dialogue.

> It is titled
> 
> IS FETICIDE A CRIME?

> The article begins: " At no age as under no circumstances
> whatever is a murder justifiable...[the article continues and
> observes: "The crime committed lies precisely in the wilful and
> sinful destruction of life, and interference with the operations
> of nature, hence -- with KARMA -- that of the mother and the
> would-be future human being....feticide is a crime against
> nature...[Occultism states] : "feticide as an attempt to double
> suicide. For, indeed, when even successful and the mother does
> not die just then, it still shortens her life on earth to prolong
> it with dreary percentage in Kama-loka, the intermediate sphere
> between the earth and the region of rest...]

It says a lot more than that. I don't have it handy, but I do have the
notes I took on it. First of all, up front, Blavatsky points out that,
at the time, abortion WAS illegal; in fact, even supporting it in
writing was a crime (distributing literature about LEGAL birth control
was illegal, for that matter). She did, however state that sometimes the
karma entailed by having the abortion is less than the karma entailed by
not. 

Bart Lidofsky

From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 21:17:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
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From: Drpsionic@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/00 9:27:49 PM Central Daylight Time, 
shampan@zip.com.au writes:

<< 
My view is Sir, if those two are the choices left, we should get
to the rectifying the cause of both, rather than the symptoms.
That is what Theosophy is about .. is it not?
>>

They may not be the only two choices left, but they are often the ones we are 
stuck with.

Chuck the heretic

From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Oct 18 21:19:22 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: Drpsionic@aol.com

In a message dated 10/18/00 10:12:50 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bartl@sprynet.com writes:

<< Too bad that, outside of the Gospels, there is not one iota of
historical evidence that Jesus even existed. 
>>

Well, there are the references in Josephus, and Suetonius refers to him 
indirectly as does Tacitus.

One can make the same argument against just about everyone else in the 
ancient world. After all, aside from Plato, what do we really know about 
Socrates?

Chuck the Heretic

From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Oct 18 21:46:47 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/18/00 10:12:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> bartl@sprynet.com writes:
> 
> << Too bad that, outside of the Gospels, there is not one iota of
> historical evidence that Jesus even existed.
> >>
> 
> Well, there are the references in Josephus, and Suetonius refers to him
> indirectly as does Tacitus.

When linguistically examined, it is clear that the references in
Josephus were added a couple of centuries after the fact.

> One can make the same argument against just about everyone else in the
> ancient world. After all, aside from Plato, what do we really know about
> Socrates?

Nothing. But we are not asked to believe that Socrates existed. If he
were a figment of Plato's imagination, it would make no difference. In
terms of the value of the New Testament, we could say the same about
Jesus. When people ask us to believe in specifics about Jesus, however,
and make them directly related to events in the present time, then
historical evidence becomes relevant.

Bart Lidofsky

From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Oct 18 22:12:15 2000
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Subject: Two articles about Jesus--
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From: Compiler 

The two articles about Jesus in the below link, from THEOSOPHY magazine, the
131st and 132nd of the 166 on this INDEX page, might be useful food for thought
to add to the discussion here about Jesus. They are the 2nd and 3rd articles in
the "Great Theosophists" series of 29 articles. There is also one about
"Apollonius of Tyana", who has also been spoken about here:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html

Compiler
-------

Bart Lidofsky wrote:

> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 10/18/00 10:12:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> > bartl@sprynet.com writes:
> >
> > << Too bad that, outside of the Gospels, there is not one iota of
> > historical evidence that Jesus even existed.
> > >>
> >
> > Well, there are the references in Josephus, and Suetonius refers to him
> > indirectly as does Tacitus.
>
> When linguistically examined, it is clear that the references in
> Josephus were added a couple of centuries after the fact.
>
> > One can make the same argument against just about everyone else in the
> > ancient world. After all, aside from Plato, what do we really know about
> > Socrates?
>
> Nothing. But we are not asked to believe that Socrates existed. If he
> were a figment of Plato's imagination, it would make no difference. In
> terms of the value of the New Testament, we could say the same about
> Jesus. When people ask us to believe in specifics about Jesus, however,
> and make them directly related to events in the present time, then
> historical evidence becomes relevant.
>
> Bart Lidofsky
>


From theo73@webtv.net Thu Oct 19 05:31:01 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:31:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
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From: theo73@webtv.net

Hi Gene
Glad to hear you are interested!
We are an independent group of students from ULT in L.A.
Our web site is at 
www.lbtheosophycenter.com
Drop around, Wit and all

Dorothy Lord


From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 19 05:44:20 2000
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Subject: Physical existence of Jesus
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

It was common in the late nineteenthcentury among the 
intelligentsia to dispute the physical existence of Jesus. I've read 
similar material from Swami Vivekananda and so on, that Christ 
was a complilation of various mystery traditions. 

However, if you consider the writings and arguments of the Jews 
and Pagans around the time of early Christianity, there is no 
record to my knowledge of anyone disputing the physical 
existence of Jesus as a serious argument. If anyone knows of 
this please let me know...

Some have identified Him with Essene Prophet of 
Righteousness as did GRS Mead.

To me Jesus had a physical manifestation and the early Logia 
and teachings are evidence in themselves of this, there is also 
the output of Greek material as well as Coptic and evidence of 
the Essene and Nazorean communities . 

It's interesting that Apollonius is compared to Jesus. To me they 
were separate entities in separate worlds, but having 
similarities. The differences would be that Jesus was in an 
Aramaic cultural context and should beappreciated in that 
setting. while Apollonius was Hellenistic and should be 
appreciated in that context. 

I also doubt very much that there has been a successful union 
between the Hellenistic world and the Judaic Aramaean world. 
Attempts were made to translate what Jesus said from Aramaic 
to Greek and so on, but these were only "attempts". Even the 
verb structure of Aramaic and Greek are desparate and mutually 
exceptional, so no truly accurate translation can occur because 
the two systems are based on totally different conceptions of 
reality.

- Art


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To: 
Subject: HPB and the Secret Doctrine
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:59:54 +0100
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From: "Peter Merriott" 



I think we need to be very careful when putting forward the notion that the
teachings given out by the Masters were coloured by HPB's own views and
biases. This is a recipe for saying that when HPB challenges our own pet
theories that this must have been an occasion when she did not clearly write
down the thoughts of her Master. But of course, we will say she got the
Masters' words right when she agrees with what we want to believe.

Also the notion that the SD and it statements about the Absolute, the Logos
(Logoi) & so on reflect HPB's views and cultural background does not really
hold up when we consider how the Secret Doctrine was written and who were
the true authors. The following statements were made by the Mahatmas M and
KH.

In a letter to Dr. Hubbe-Schleiden, the Master M wrote:

"I the humble undersigned fakir, certify that the "Secret Doctrine" is
dictated to Upasika [HPB] partly by myself & partly by my Brother K.H."
(Letters of the Masters of Wisdom. Second Series: No 70)

In another letter the Master KH writes:

"...The Secret Doctrine, when ready, will be the triple production of M,
Upasika and the Doctor's most humble servant."
(Letters of the Masters of Wisdom. Second Series: No 69)

In a letter to Colonel Olcott, the Master KH writes:

"...Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and
other works, we have given or SUGGESTED to her. EVERY MISTAKE OR ERRONEOUS
NOTION, CORRECTED AND EXPLAINED BY HER FROM THE WORKS OF OTHER THEOSOPHISTS
WAS CORRECTED BY ME, OR UNDER MY INSTRUCTION."
(Letters of the Masters of Wisdom, First Series: No 19. CAPS ADDED)

The last sentence in the above quote is worthy of reflection. The Countess
Wachmeister wrote that the Master KH appeared to correct HPB manuscipts in
many places. In the memoirs of her stay with HPB while she was writing the
Secret Doctrine, the Countess Wachmeister wrote:

"When I visited her in October, 1885, she had just begun to write it, and in
January, 1886, she had finished about a dozen chapters... I also saw her
write down sentences as if she were copying them form something before her,
where, however, I saw nothing... I know that I saw a good deal of the
well-known blue K.H. handwriting as corrections and annotations on her
manuscripts as well as in books that lay occasionally on her desk. And I
noticed this principally in the morning before she had commenced her work.
I slept on the couch in her study after she had withdrawn for the night, and
the couch stood only a few feet from her desk. I remember well my
astonishment one morning when I got up to find a great many pages of
foolscap covered with that blue pencil handwriting lying on her own
manuscript, at her place on the desk. How these pages got there I do not
know, but I did not see them before I went to sleep and no person had been
bodily in the room during the night, for I am a light sleeper."

HPB herself complained on occasion that just when she had laboured hours and
hours in getting down a passage for the SD one of the Masters would tell her
it was not quite correct, or she would find the following morning passages
had been struck through overnight with ink with the instruction to re-write
them.

>From the above we can assume that what we find written in The Secret
Doctrine with regards the fundamental tenets of Theosophy and the Ancient
Wisdom religion provides an accurate reflection of what the Mahatmas wanted
HPB to write. Given the direct involvement of the two Masters in this
"triple production" of the SD it should give us cause to question why latter
statements attributed to the Masters by other people after HPB died are
often at complete odds with what they originally and so painstakingly wrote.

What it was the Masters wanted to convey in the Secret Doctrine can be
found, at least in part, in the following statement:

"...the records we mean to place before the reader embrace the esoteric
tenets of the whole world since the beginning of our humanity.."(SD I xx)

Thus what we find in the SD are not some little bits of knowledge relevant
to one hundred years ago but no longer relevant now, as some would like us
to believe. Nor is it simply an academic exercise of bringing various
fragments of information together. In fact in the introduction to the SD we
find it stated:

"This work is written for the instruction of students of Occultism..."(SD I
23)

and

"..it must be remembered that all these Stanzas appeal to the inner
faculties rather than to the ordinary comprehension of the physical brain."
(SD I 21)


...Peter


From ringding@blinx.de Thu Oct 19 08:20:26 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <3.0.5.32.20001017212331.007f5140@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EE659F.5B4B5408@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:45:47 +0200
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> Share International is all about people sharing their money with
>Benjamin Creme. And, as far as Satan goes, read the story in the New
>Testament about the temptation of Jesus by Satan, and read the
>descriptions of the appearances of the so-called "Maitreya".
>
> Bart Lidofsky

Well said, Bart. (Un)fortunaltely my English isn't good enough to describe =
how bad the Creme-Bailey-Maitreya poppycock is. Theosophists should be expe=
rienced enough (after the Krishnamurti - World-teacher- Tonight-I-was-with-=
the director-of-Evolution-he-is my-friend show) to cover up such black doct=
rines as to wait for and await any outer power (guru, Master, Ufo, Aliens e=
tc. etc.) which will solve my own problems - instead - as the ageold wisdom=
teaches - to look into the inner chamber of my own heart, to listen to my =
inner voice.
With all that Bailey-Creme stuff there comes only one institution in my min=
d which gains profit from all the outer sensations: the Vatican and their t=
housand hidden lodges.
Frank

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>      Share International is all abou=
t=20
people sharing their money with
>Benjamin Creme. And, as far as Satan=
=20
goes, read the story in the New
>Testament about the temptation of Je=
sus=20
by Satan, and read the
>descriptions of the appearances of the so-cal=
led=20
"Maitreya".


>
>      Bart Lidofsky


 


Well said, Bart. (Un)fortunaltely my English isn't =
good=20
enough to describe how bad the Creme-Bailey-Maitreya poppycock is. Theosoph=
ists=20
should be experienced enough (after the Krishnamurti - World-teacher-=20
Tonight-I-was-with-the director-of-Evolution-he-is my-friend show) to cover=
up=20
such black doctrines as to wait for and await any outer power (guru, Master=
,=20
Ufo, Aliens etc. etc.) which will solve my own problems - instead - as the=
=20
ageold wisdom teaches - to look into the inner chamber of my own heart, to=
=20
listen to my inner voice.


With all that Bailey-Creme stuff there comes only o=
ne=20
institution in my mind which gains profit from all the outer sensations: th=
e=20
Vatican and their thousand hidden lodges.


Frank


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From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 19 08:42:47 2000
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Subject: locked step theosophy and dogmatism...
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Dear Shampan

I think you can see from the various positions on the material of 
Bailey vrs. Blavatsky vrs. others that that there is only partial 
truths revealed and as you wisely commented "... Emphasis so 
much on the Theosophical "terms", or
> "personalities"(who tried to explain the root concept in their
> own view, not saying they are wrong, but only ONE view of a 
much
> larger concept) seems just as much a .. mistake. "

So we cannot be dogmatic about these personalities and what 
they wrote, otherwise we are no improvement over the 
dogmatists in the traditional religious establishments.

We can study them and appreciate them but at best they give 
only a facet of the wider truth, but I will grant that even that in
this 
plane of existence is to be appreciated. A lot of this material can 
be useful to us personally but it also is I think counter productive 
and misleading to proclaim a particular occult truth or view as 
the
most accurate and complete manifestation of reality when it is 
only a facet.

Students who are just beginning to study theosophy need a 
broad introduction rather than a sectarian one! It is really 
misleading and can be harmful to try to instill in seekers the 
need for conformity of thought and dogmatism whether it be in 
religion or philosophy.

I had a nascent theosophic study circle that met for eight months 
a year or so ago. A certain office which I will not mention 
indicated that all theosophic groups must proceed along a 
"locked step" approach to the ancient wisdom tradition to be 
considered a "group" ...in time, we were told we could have 
some benefits of calling ourselves a theosphic group only if 
certain guidelines were followed. Well, my friend, most of those 
who were studying in the group had been theosophists 
individually for many, many years and decided against a formal 
group status so we could proceed to study what we wanted to 
instead of what anational office decided for us to study, and that 
is what transpired. The peopel who were new to theosophy 
were really put off by the locked step approach as well and as 
adults also decided to join our "rump" group. 

We studied David Fiedeler's "Jesus Christ Sun of God." We 
met weekly for eight months reading Fideler's book and studying 
and enjoying it thouroughly. We met in a bookstore for free and 
got free publicity for our meetings through the store bulletin. We 
had some delightful dinners together and all in all experienced 
something akin perhaps to those wonderful philosophic 
occasions written of when sincere souls and lovers of wisdom 
congregate!

- Art



--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Shampan-e-Shindh 
 wrote:
> Mr Gregory wrote:
> "What I am trying to articulate is that during the early
> theosophy
> movement there was the beginning of exposure to early
> translations of
> Buddhist, Hindu scriptures and philosophy and people in the 
West
> began
> to color these philosophys with their earlier exposure to 
western
> 
> esoteric traditions as well as spiritualism and such."
> 
> Mr Gregory.. you have really done it. This is a thread I wish to
> get up on. With due respect to all religions, most are practised
> with the superficial guidelines and regulations and the most
> insignificant issues of them. Rather than what was the
> core-material or objective...My view of course.
> 
> Emphasis so much on the Theosophical "terms", or
> "personalities"(who tried to explain the root concept in their
> own view, not saying they are wrong, but only ONE view of a 
much
> larger concept) seems just as much a .. mistake. The concept 
of
> spiritualism, Theosophy, Philosophy.. is not so complicated.
> While their motives might be good, they try to explain in various
> words, making it more "off-track" from the main concept.. most
> likely not intentionally.


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From shampan@zip.com.au Thu Oct 19 09:42:19 2000
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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

>
> They may not be the only two choices left, but they are often
> the ones we are
> stuck with.
>
> Chuck the heretic

HORNS of STTAN!!!
I better shoot myself.
:))

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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

 

They may not be the only two choices left, but they are often the
ones we are

stuck with.

Chuck the heretic

HORNS of STTAN!!!

I better shoot myself.

:))

--------------D5EE09774875FA9845CE401C--

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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 03:49:08 +1000
Organization: Cream & Sugar (The Ludic Revolution) http://www.zip.com.au/~shampan
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Physical existence of Jesus
References: <8smqas+b6d1@eGroups.com>
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

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Not quite out of topic, there is a documentary done regarding the
Dead Sea Scrolls narrated by scholars from the US University
faculties, the discussion was very elaborate, neutral (the most
important), and informative.
It was specially made when they discovered the "delete-overwrite"
in the Dead Sea Scrolls, with the laser-tests. I wish I could
recall who produced it. But there has not been more than 10 such
done since the discovery.

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:

> It was common in the late nineteenthcentury among the
> intelligentsia to dispute the physical existence of Jesus. I've
> read
> similar material from Swami Vivekananda and so on, that Christ
> was a complilation of various mystery traditions.
>
> However, if you consider the writings and arguments of the Jews
>
> and Pagans around the time of early Christianity, there is no
> record to my knowledge of anyone disputing the physical
> existence of Jesus as a serious argument. If anyone knows of
> this please let me know...
>
> Some have identified Him with Essene Prophet of
> Righteousness as did GRS Mead.
>
> To me Jesus had a physical manifestation and the early Logia
> and teachings are evidence in themselves of this, there is also
>
> the output of Greek material as well as Coptic and evidence of
> the Essene and Nazorean communities .
>
> It's interesting that Apollonius is compared to Jesus. To me
> they
> were separate entities in separate worlds, but having
> similarities. The differences would be that Jesus was in an
> Aramaic cultural context and should beappreciated in that
> setting. while Apollonius was Hellenistic and should be
> appreciated in that context.
>
> I also doubt very much that there has been a successful union
> between the Hellenistic world and the Judaic Aramaean world.
> Attempts were made to translate what Jesus said from Aramaic
> to Greek and so on, but these were only "attempts". Even the
> verb structure of Aramaic and Greek are desparate and mutually
> exceptional, so no truly accurate translation can occur because
>
> the two systems are based on totally different conceptions of
> reality.
>
> - Art
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor

>

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Not quite out of topic, there is a documentary done regarding the Dead
Sea Scrolls narrated by scholars from the US University faculties, the
discussion was very elaborate, neutral (the most important), and informative.

It was specially made when they discovered the "delete-overwrite" in
the Dead Sea Scrolls, with the laser-tests. I wish I could recall who produced
it. But there has not been more than 10 such done since the discovery.

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:

It was common in the late nineteenthcentury 
among the

intelligentsia to dispute the physical existence of Jesus. I've
read

similar material from Swami Vivekananda and so on, that Christ

was a complilation of various mystery traditions.

However, if you consider the writings and arguments of the Jews

and Pagans around the time of early Christianity, there is no

record to my knowledge of anyone disputing the physical

existence of  Jesus as a serious argument.  If anyone
knows of

this please let me know...

Some have identified Him with Essene Prophet of

Righteousness as did GRS Mead.

To me Jesus had a physical manifestation and the early Logia

and teachings are evidence in themselves of this, there is also

the output of Greek material as well as Coptic and evidence of

the Essene and Nazorean communities .

It's interesting that Apollonius is compared to Jesus. To me they

were separate entities in separate worlds, but having

similarities. The differences would be that Jesus was in an

Aramaic cultural context and should beappreciated in that

setting. while Apollonius was Hellenistic and should be

appreciated in that context.

I also doubt very much that there has been a successful union

between the Hellenistic world and the Judaic Aramaean world.

Attempts were made to translate what Jesus said from Aramaic

to Greek and so on, but these were only "attempts". Even the

verb structure of Aramaic and Greek are desparate and mutually

exceptional, so no truly accurate translation can occur because

the two systems are based on totally different conceptions of

reality.

- Art

 




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--------------2F2CF50A8B9400368A727D63--

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To: 
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Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Secret Doctrine
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:48:29 +0200
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Peter, thanks so much for the worthy quotes, I have had the same in mind, b=
ut had them not at hands so quick.
Another two arguments that HPB reported the doctrines correct could be:
- she was trained for her mission in the 1860's, so she knew the the main t=
eachings
- "Her" teachings were confirmed after her death by other trained Theosophi=
sts like Judge, Tingley or de Purucker. Purcker for example told his pupils=
that he was trained by the same teachers as HPB and received the same teac=
hings. He didn't find any big error in HPB's presentation.

Frank


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Peter, thanks so much for t=
he worthy=20
quotes, I have had the same in mind, but had them not at hands so=20
quick.


Another two arguments that =
HPB=20
reported the doctrines correct could be:


- she was trained for her m=
ission in=20
the 1860's, so she knew the the main teachings


- "Her" teachings were=20
confirmed after her death by other trained Theosophists like Judge, Ti=
ngley=20
or de Purucker. Purcker for example told his pupils that he was traine=
d by=20
the same teachers as HPB and received the same teachings. He didn't find an=
y big=20
error in HPB's presentation.


 


Frank


 


------=_NextPart_000_0192_01C039F4.CA450BE0--

From ernesto@bmu.com.pe Thu Oct 19 11:54:38 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Physical existence of Jesus
References: <8smqas+b6d1@eGroups.com> <39EF3412.B598AE82@zip.com.au>
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From: ernesto 



Shampan-e-Shindh escribi=F3:

> Not quite out of topic, there is a documentary done regarding the Dead
> Sea Scrolls narrated by scholars from the US University faculties, the
> discussion was very elaborate, neutral (the most important), and
> informative.
> It was specially made when they discovered the "delete-overwrite" in
> the Dead Sea Scrolls, with the laser-tests. I wish I could recall who
> produced it. But there has not been more than 10 such done since the
> discovery.

Could you please explain more about the "delete.overwrite" ocurrence?
In my country I have never herad nothing about that.

David C.



From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 19 13:17:39 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: lovers of Apollonius of Tyana
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Here's another site for the lovers of Apollonius:


http://www.alchemylab.com/apollonius.htm

- Art


From dalval@nwc.net Thu Oct 19 17:25:05 2000
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Reply-To: 
To: "Theosophy Study List" 
Subject: RE: ABORTION and KARMA
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:11:37 -0700
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From: Dallas Tenbroeck 

Oct 19th 2000

ABORTION, etc...

Dear Katinka:

Since we study Theosophy together I thought you would be
interested in what HPB who launched the doctrines had to say. I
quoted a part of her article/answer.

It is a statement of occult fact and not argumentative.

Nor do I argue. We are all aware of current views. But which of
those are valid and can stand the test of a long-time existence.
Facts are sometimes very hard to face. If we take it that we are
IMMORTALS in our spiritual self, then we have erred many times in
the past and have survived, and now are getting wiser. But we
have to be honest with ourselves and not fear our errors. Under
Karma, we will have to set them straight in due course. I would
rather know HOW and WHY.

Most of us hope reincarnation works. But also most of us fear
that it won't, so we adopt a defensive position and try to keep a
foot in either "camp." Is that either sure or possible? Will we
acquire greater certainty?

Apparently Nature has her laws and we are deeply involved in
them. We have been a living part of Nature for an immense period
of time (and we did not even hear of this until relatively
recently in this incarnation. Is it true or is it false? How
can we find out?)

We also have the opportunity of studying them. Like scientists
we are not involved in evaluating credulity (including our likes
and wishes and those of others) but, rather, finding out what is
the truth of things.

Karma either is or isn't. It's not "maybe." Either the SPIRIT
of Man is a permanency or it is not. But, why is it that we
question this? Can any proof be secured? Are we better off
being wise, or being ignorant?

How do we set about defining the truth of any theory, proposition
or even an item taken from History? What faculties have in use
or which do we need? And how do we acquire them? There is no
path to "sudden enlightenment" until the student has pursued the
arduous path of many lives of continuous struggle. "Sudden
Enlightenment" occurs as a final result of such protracted work
and beneficence. Hence Brotherhood is always recommended.

Either the whole of evolution hangs together without fault or the
concept of a hodgepodge will continue to dominate us with its
uncertainties. How do we find stability? What "tools" do we
already possess? What are we absolutely sure of?

I can think of only 3 things I would call certain.

1. I exist and think and ask. I am a form and have
limitations, but I think and can direct my thought as I 'desire.'

2. The Universe consisting of innumerable beings, forms and
forces also exists all around me and interpenetrating me. There
are continuing relationships. There is an ocean of law, and also
of apparent chance, accident, and other unknown events which can
fall on us without previous warning. Does this invalidate
Scientific LAWS ?

3. The 3rd certainty is precisely this constant and
multiform interrelationship between the Universe of beings, Life,
Forces, multiple purposes, etc... and :My-Self."

I would conclude that Theosophy is a record of the research down
the ages of man, many students who, finding some LAWS, made notes
of them and passed the information on to others for verification.

It therefore stands (Theosophy) as a kind of guide for us of such
things as were found to have degrees of relationship that
persisted, developed stability and therefore could serve as links
or stepping stones between related and unrelated phenomena,
between the "past" and our "present," with a suspicion that those
relationships might with modifications stretch on into the
future.

We are in a very fortunate position 125 years from the date of
its again being recorded. We can at least, given a couple of
years, peruse the breadth of that PRIMARY SOURCE: the records of
what HPB wrote for the MASTERS OF WISDOM.

It seems to me to very neglectful of the opportunity if we stop
to argue over things for which we have not yet developed a broad
knowledge instead of equipping ourselves with such easily
available information, and thus constitution ourselves valid
students of THEOSOPHY.

Anyone can argue. Few can STUDY.

It takes a lot of persistence and study to master any discipline.
Can we not make of THEOSOPHY a true study? Should we not test it
thoroughly? How can we test it if we have not become thoroughly
familiar with it ?

I only quoted to you fragments of what HPB wrote. Go to the
original article, for which I gave references. If you cannot
access it through BLAVATSKY.NET, then let me know and I will send
you a copy by mail.

Well, this is all I am able to think of for the moment. Best
wishes, as always,

Dal


D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Katinka Hesselink [mailto:katinka_hesselink@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 12:45 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: ABORTION and KARMA

Dallas,

I am sure you don't mean it this way, but your argument sounds a
lot like:
take life as it is and don't change what you don't like - and/or
isn't
good. Sounds like: don't act, because you have to deal with the
results.
Point is (in my opinion) that a pregnant woman or adolescent has
to act
anyhow and one of the ways of facing the difficulty of the
responsibility
of having an unwanted child - is not having it.

Abortion is in my opinion certainly not a positive choice. On the
other
hand, if a pregnant 16-year old realistically knows that she
cannot yet
take care of any child, I think she has the right to consider
abortion.
Having to take care of a child growing up is an immense
responsibility.
Takes at least 18 years before the responsibility becomes less. I
think
that Karma will take her motive and circumstances into account.
It is
obvious that she should not have had unprotected sex in the first
place,
but dealing with the consequences - abortion does seem one of the
logical
choices. Adoption is also one, of course, but that is another
matter.

Katinka

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From shampan@zip.com.au Thu Oct 19 17:39:55 2000
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From: Shampan-e-Shindh 

The laser vision (I have no idea why it is called so)...
basically it is like an X-ray. Where the scrtips were a bit
scratchy or the writings looked less or more darkness/faded than
the rest, they tried to see if anyone did some wrtitings on top
of the previous writings. What appears from the rough vision they
had was, most of the time it was text written where the old text
had faded, sometimes there is a sign of what might be called the
premitive "liquid ink", but no one can be sure if the new text
has been changed.

There is where the scholars have disagreed with one another.
There were about 15 different narrators, and I could be almost
certain only 5 are who believe in .. the unknown (let us leave it
at that).

So their description/assessment of the genuinity of the existing
scripts, compared to various other historical records/ other
scripts was very neutral. Jesus was about 30% of contents in the
related discussions.


From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Oct 19 19:37:19 2000
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Subject: Jesus: Another side of the story
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

http://biology.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 19 21:33:33 2000
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Bart Lidofsky  wrote:
> http://biology.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

I've encountered this letter before by the learned rabbi. He writes:

If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New 
Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name 
for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived 
from the Hebrew word neitzer, which means a shoot or 
sprout--an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already 
people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben 
Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim 
that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear
that 
the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be 
a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in 
existence for about 150 years. One of the most notorious Notzrim 
was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. 
Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of 
Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has 
always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" 
has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a 
shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is 
important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus 
since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus 
and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on 
other historical people besides Yeishu. 

Bart I was wondering if you subscribe to the argument of the 
source you cited that Jesus derived from Yeishu ben Pandeira. If 
so, then as with Mead you agree Jesus could have been Yeishu 
ben Pandeira. 

The learned Rabbi's argument that "It is important to note that 
Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern 
Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu 
and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other 
historical people besides Yeishu." 

Why would he say that? Who cares ultimately what "modern 
Christianity" says? either he was or not. If Jesus derived from 
ben Pandeira he was ergo historical. 

- Art


From samblo@cs.com Thu Oct 19 22:23:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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From: samblo@cs.com

Nancy,
G.R.S. Mead who was Personal Secretary to H.P.B. wrote a book
" Apollonius of Tyana - The Philosopher-Reformer of The First
Century A.D." 1966, Published by University Books-Library of 
Congress
#66-13384. I hope you find his work and enjoy as he was one of the 
few
Theosophical Prominents respected by Academia and his works
on the Gnostics are used as "Q" sources.


John 

From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 20 01:55:24 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 04:54:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com>
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From: Kathleen Arc 

It is possible that each of us goes through the dark side to get to the
Light, Gentlemen. Fear promulgated, Judgment and Condemnation cast abroad
wholesale, can be a detriment and DETERENT to all who seek that Light. Who
is to say where the Light resides -- except that when it is internalized,
we promote LOVE, and non-separatism.

My favorite lifetime habit of choice had always been Judgment and
Condemnation until in "recovery" I began to see how few people liked me for
it -- and how few heard what I wished to offer. It is tempting to judge
when we are brilliant and have "cast aside the things of childhood" but
some may learn from whomever they study with...it depends on their KARMA.=20
So a little forebearance please.=20

With love from Kat in Italy

From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 20 02:02:53 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:01:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Abortion and Theosophy
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

"It says a lot more than that. I don't have it handy, but I do have the
notes I took on it. First of all, up front, Blavatsky points out that,
at the time, abortion WAS illegal; in fact, even supporting it in
writing was a crime (distributing literature about LEGAL birth control
was illegal, for that matter). She did, however state that sometimes the
karma entailed by having the abortion is less than the karma entailed by
not.=20

Bart Lidofsky"

Hi Bart -- I agree. I had a teacher once who spoke of abortion as "souls
agreeing to come in for a short term to hasten their own evolution". =
=20
There but for the grace of God....etc. was always my grateful prayer in my
reproductive days. Love, Kat

From kellogg@west.net Fri Oct 20 07:53:53 2000
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From: "" 




>From: Kathleen Arc 
>Reply-To: theos-talk@egroups.com
>To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
>CC: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 04:54:54 -0400
>
>It is possible that each of us goes through the dark side to get to the
>Light, Gentlemen.



St. John of the Cross calls going through the dark side, "The soul's dark 
night." Check out his book, "Ascent of Mt. Carmel, for a more detailed 
description.

ssk
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From oom_2001@yahoo.com Fri Oct 20 11:35:06 2000
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From: Stanley Zurawski 


--- theo73@webtv.net wrote:
> Hi Gene
> Glad to hear you are interested!
> We are an independent group of students from ULT in
> L.A.
> Our web site is at 
> www.lbtheosophycenter.com
> Drop around, Wit and all
> 
> Dorothy Lord
> 
> I live in Malibu I have been interest THeosophy,
Alice Bailey I am working to form meetings in the
Golden Dome which should be finished in a couple of
months.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Oct 20 12:59:45 2000
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In a message dated 10/20/00 10:03:00 AM Central Daylight Time, 
kellogg@west.net writes:

<< St. John of the Cross calls going through the dark side, "The soul's dark 
night." Check out his book, "Ascent of Mt. Carmel, for a more detailed 
description.
>>

And, as Darth Vader said, "the dark side has more fun."

Darth Chuck

From ramadoss@eden.com Fri Oct 20 13:55:38 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
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References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <3.0.5.32.20001017212331.007f5140@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EE659F.5B4B5408@sprynet.com>
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From: M K Ramadoss 

At 04:45 PM 10/19/2000 +0200, you wrote: 

>>>>



> Share International is all about people sharing their money with

>Benjamin Creme. And, as far as Satan goes, read the story in the New

>Testament about the temptation of Jesus by Satan, and read the

>descriptions of the appearances of the so-called "Maitreya".

>

> Bart Lidofsky



ArialWell said, Bart. (Un)fortunaltely my
English isn't good enough to describe how bad the Creme-Bailey-Maitreya
poppycock is. Theosophists should be experienced enough (after the
Krishnamurti - World-teacher- Tonight-I-was-with-the
director-of-Evolution-he-is my-friend show) to cover up such black
doctrines as to wait for and await any outer power (guru, Master, Ufo,
Aliens etc. etc.) which will solve my own problems - instead - as the
ageold wisdom teaches - to look into the inner chamber of my own heart,
to listen to my inner voice.

With all that Bailey-Creme stuff there comes only one institution in my
mind which gains profit from all the outer sensations: the Vatican and
their thousand hidden lodges.

Frank



One of the red flags that go up any time I deal with any group is when
they try to get your money in whatever manner. This simple principle has
kept me away from all groups which are after your money under the guise
of providing spiritual info or instruction. However your mileage may vary
as the saying goes.


mkr

From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 20 19:30:39 2000
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

arthra999@yahoo.com wrote:
> Bart I was wondering if you subscribe to the argument of the
> source you cited that Jesus derived from Yeishu ben Pandeira. If
> so, then as with Mead you agree Jesus could have been Yeishu
> ben Pandeira.

My personal belief? I believe that Jesus was a one of a number of
Essene leaders of the time, and the stories about him got amalgamated
with the stories of many teachers, and got mushed together into the New
Testament. However, my great-grandfather, among many, many others was
slaughtered for the crime of killing this Jesus guy. Several of my
friends were the victims of beatings for the same crime. 

The Mahatmas wrote that metaphysical truth should be taught in the
idiom in which the people understand. But, far too often, people look at
the map, and think it's the terrain. The stories of Jesus make nice
myths, but when people are running around claiming to be Jesus reborn
(or the new vehicle for the "Christ"), my fraud radar comes on full
power.

Some born again Christians use the saying (even if far too many don't
follow it), "What would Jesus do?" Well, at least based on the stories
I've read about him, he wouldn't do ANYTHING resembling what these
so-called "World Teachers" are doing. 

Bart Lidofsky

From shampan@zip.com.au Fri Oct 20 19:52:00 2000
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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

>
> And, as Darth Vader said, "the dark side has more fun."
>
> Darth Chuck

I say, in a colourful intellectual analysis of anything, the
"DARK SIDE" is always invisible.

Sham to the SHAMBLES.





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Drpsionic@aol.com wrote:

 

And, as Darth Vader said, "the dark side has more fun."

Darth Chuck

I say, in a colourful intellectual analysis of anything, the "DARK SIDE"
is always invisible.

Sham to the SHAMBLES.

 

 

 

 

--------------F5EC0524E3A721350B6274F7--

From shampan@zip.com.au Fri Oct 20 20:08:11 2000
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Bart Lidofsky wrote: I believe that Jesus was a one of a number
of

> Essene leaders of the time, and the stories about him got
> amalgamated
> with the stories of many teachers,

No doubt Jesus appreciated all words of wisdom and promoted them,
regardless of what the source was.. The deed is more important
than who does it. I strongly believe, even John the Baptist was a
philosopher who inspired Jesus into deepr digging. And many other
concepts like that, but John the Baptist was the only living
being Jesus was took seriously as an example for learning from.
The stories of Jesus make nice

> myths, but when people are running around claiming to be Jesus
> reborn
> (or the new vehicle for the "Christ"), my fraud radar comes on
> full
> power.

There is a misunderstanding, Jesus or any such great teachers are
not reborn in the same soul or whatever.. But someone with
similar understandings can be born and start following Jesus,
which Jesus himself might have done in regards to great teachers
before him. And there are fools always who get misled, I do not
exclude myself. We are all fools in different ways.

>
>
> Some born again Christians use the saying (even if far
> too many don't
> follow it), "What would Jesus do?"

Good point, the ones who utter "offer the other cheek", usually
do the slapping and the fools usually follow and offer the other
cheek to them, so who is more CHRIST-ian in that cotext? makes me
grief.

Gandhi once said, "I love Jesus but I hate christians", Tagore
said to Gandhi his show of "placidity" was too politically
motivated to be pure.

Thankfully
Sham

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Bart Lidofsky wrote: I believe that Jesus was a one of a number
of

Essene leaders of the time, and the stories about
him got amalgamated

with the stories of many teachers,

No doubt Jesus appreciated all words of wisdom and promoted them, regardless
of what the source was.. The deed is more important than who does it. I
strongly believe, even John the Baptist was a philosopher who inspired
Jesus into deepr digging. And many other concepts like that, but John the
Baptist was the only living being Jesus was took seriously as an example
for learning from. The stories of Jesus make nice

myths, but when people are running around claiming
to be Jesus reborn

(or the new vehicle for the "Christ"), my fraud radar comes on
full

power.

There is a misunderstanding, Jesus or any such great teachers are not reborn
in the same soul or whatever.. But someone with similar understandings
can be born and start following Jesus, which Jesus himself might have done
in regards to great teachers before him. And there are fools always who
get misled, I do not exclude myself. We are all fools in different ways.

 

      Some born again Christians use the
saying (even if far too many don't

follow it), "What would Jesus do?"

Good point, the ones who utter "offer the other cheek", usually do the
slapping and the fools usually follow and offer the other cheek to them,
so who is more CHRIST-ian in that cotext? makes me grief.

Gandhi once said, "I love Jesus but I hate christians", Tagore said
to Gandhi his show of "placidity" was too politically motivated to be pure.

Thankfully

Sham

--------------E181FD1BB47CEE953DB41F94--

From arthra999@yahoo.com Sat Oct 21 01:49:41 2000
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Good points Bart! I too suspect Jesus was likely a essene type 
leader. Perhaps the Nazoreans were a group at least similar to 
the essenes and had similar practices. If you check out the 
Mandeaens you will find some interesting material from another 
view that Jesus was some sort of "traitor" to the followers of John 
the Baptist in that Jesus publically taught what they felt should 
have been kept in a mystery type tradition. The Mandeaen 
material can be found in the Gnostic archives on-line.

Your comment "...when people are running around claiming to 
be Jesus reborn
> (or the new vehicle for the "Christ"), my fraud radar comes on 
full
> power. 
is very important and significant in my view. I have similar 
feelings about those who claim to have the last word from the 
Master(s) and I know many fellow theosophists would disagree 
with this but it seems to me to be a holdover from Spiritualist 
influences in the early theosophical movement.

Your comment: "However, my great-grandfather, among many, 
many others was
> slaughtered for the crime of killing this Jesus guy. Several of 
my
> friends were the victims of beatings for the same crime." 

Only very recently as I understand the Catholic Church removed 
it's anathema against the "Christ killers" ... Jesus forgave them 
nearly two millenia ago if we accept traditional chronology. 

I was interested in the concept that people take on the group 
karma of the group they associate with spiritually. Thus being 
members of a group has benefits sometimes as well as 
possible liabilities. Only recently people have had a greater 
choice to allign themselves with a spiritual tradition.

- Art




--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Bart Lidofsky  wrote:
> arthra999@y... wrote:
> > Bart I was wondering if you subscribe to the argument of the
> > source you cited that Jesus derived from Yeishu ben 
Pandeira. If
> > so, then as with Mead you agree Jesus could have been 
Yeishu
> > ben Pandeira.
> 
> My personal belief? I believe that Jesus was a one of a 
number of
> Essene leaders of the time, and the stories about him got 
amalgamated
> with the stories of many teachers, and got mushed together 
into the New
> Testament. However, my great-grandfather, among many, 
many others was
> slaughtered for the crime of killing this Jesus guy. Several of 
my
> friends were the victims of beatings for the same crime. 
> 
> The Mahatmas wrote that metaphysical truth should be taught 
in the
> idiom in which the people understand. But, far too often, 
people look at
> the map, and think it's the terrain. The stories of Jesus make 
nice
> myths, but when people are running around claiming to be 
Jesus reborn
> (or the new vehicle for the "Christ"), my fraud radar comes on 
full
> power.
> 
> Some born again Christians use the saying (even if far too 
many don't
> follow it), "What would Jesus do?" Well, at least based on the 
stories
> I've read about him, he wouldn't do ANYTHING resembling 
what these
> so-called "World Teachers" are doing. 
> 
> Bart Lidofsky


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 21 01:55:56 2000
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Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 04:55:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Levels of initiation...
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear Chuck...I really appreciate your contributions! You give me a bit of
home grounding -- my laugh of the day. Thank you for being here. Kat=20

From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sat Oct 21 12:52:52 2000
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From: "Dennis Kier" 


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 9:33 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Jesus: Another side of the story


> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Bart Lidofsky  wrote:
> > http://biology.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
>
> I've encountered this letter before by the learned rabbi. He writes:
>
> If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New
> Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name
> for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived
> from the Hebrew word neitzer, which means a shoot or
> sprout--an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already
> people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben
> Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim
> that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is
clear
> that
> the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be
> a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in
> existence for about 150 years. One of the most notorious Notzrim
> was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri.
> Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of
> Jesus began with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has
> always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene"
> has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a
> shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is
> important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus
> since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus
> and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on
> other historical people besides Yeishu.

As Always, the writings of HPB contain some interesting commentary on
all this.

In Lucifer, Vol. XI, No. 66, February, 1893, pp. 449-456 appears an
article with lots of included Latin, Greek, and Hebrew words that
touch on this subject. It was compiled by G.R.S.Mead from discussions
at meetings of the Blavatsky Lodge, in October, 1889. The Article is
included in the BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS 1889, VOL. XI, pp.
482-503. This is the Theosophical Publishing House at Wheaton edition.

Another one of HPB's attendants during the last part of her life, took
the same tack, and "restored" the Ancient Wisdom teachings and
explained the inner meanings of the New Testament. It is THE RESTORED
NEW TESTAMENT by James Morgan Pryse, and is now available in a reprint
from Health Research books. It is in 2 volumes and is a good copy. I
have seen the original edition years ago. www.healthresearchbooks.com

HPB went into the technical side of all this in many places of her
writings.





From nous@btinternet.com Sat Oct 21 13:33:27 2000
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To: 
Subject: A few references to Jesus by HPB
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 21:33:17 +0100
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From: "Peter Merriott" 

Dear Art et al,

Below are just a couple of the many, many references to Jesus by HPB in ISIS
UNVEILED and the Collected Writings. There is much fuller information to be
found if one follows up the references.

kind regards,

...Peter

"Who that ever read Plato and fathomed his TO 'OV, "whom no person has seen
except the Son," can doubt that Jesus was a disciple of the same secret
doctrine which had instructed the great philosopher?"
(ISIS II: 38)

"...the nazars were a class of Chaldean theurgists. We will show further
that Jesus belonged to this class."
(ISIS II: 90)

" But what the Homilies do prove, is again our assertion that there was a
secret doctrine preached by Jesus to the few who were deemed worthy to
become its recipients and custodians."
(ISIS II: 191)

"To assure ourselves that Jesus was a true Nazarene -- albeit with ideas of
a new reform -- we must not search for the proof in the translated Gospels,
but in such original versions as are accessible."
(ISIS II: 137)

"We leave it to every impartial mind to judge whether Jesus is not more
honoured by the Theosophists, who see in him, or the ideal he embodies, a
perfect adept (the highest of his epoch), a mortal being far above the
uninitiated humanity, than he is by the Christians who have created out of
him an imperfect solar-god, a saviour and Avatara, no better, and in more
than one detail lower, than some of the Avataras who preceded him"
(HPB Collected Writings, p361 - "A word with 'ZERO'")



From nos@granite.net.au Sat Oct 21 19:40:51 2000
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From dalval@nwc.net Sun Oct 22 03:25:08 2000
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Reply-To: 
To: "Theosophy Study List" 
Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 21, 2000 APPEALING TO THEOSOPHY
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 03:12:07 -0700
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Dallas Tenbroeck 

Oct. 22 2000

Dear Kym:

As I understand it there are in Theosophy various aspects.

1. Doctrines which have been preserved by the ancient
cultures, religions, philosophies and traditions.

2. Disciplines for those who elect to study and learn from
those systems and what they can offer.

3. Several keys are offered (SD II 334-5) and elsewhere for
us to use if we so elect.

4. Every aspect of learning, testing, experiencing, etc...
are spoken of and discussed.

5. Each student being inherently a free-willed Monad is
never coerced into any discipline or study. Freedom and
Brotherhood are the keys to the external Unity of Theosophy and
its students and practitioners in the world. Openness is the
only way in which we may all have even access to TRUTH. Science
to be true has to consider all aspects and facts, so as to derive
an accurate vision and concept of motive, action, result and what
an ideal ought to be in such a case. But, none of us with
imperfect vision can set ideals for others or advocate them.

6. Obviously if one does not study the record of Theosophy,
(I mean the literature left to us primarily by HPB and the
Masters in Their articles and letters) one is not in a position
to debate it either pro or con. Such discussion as has real and
continuing value arises between students who have made themselves
familiar with the records, and can discuss them accurately

7. HPB on behalf of the Lodge of the Great Adepts made an
effort to draw together and expose for consideration a mass of
material which was considered spiritual, esoteric, occult, etc..
down the ages in various cultures, etc...She shows common links,
Laws of Nature, and allegories, and points to a universal history
of mankind and the many traditions available. She states that
the Adepts have studied this panorama and know its details well.
They have invited us to study it also.

To me THEOSOPHY represents both a record and a method of study,
and of work and interaction. But seeing Karma operates
incessantly and invariably, each is free to make decisions from
moment to moment. I also think it is important to stress the
concept of reincarnation of the Spiritual the noble and the true
inner man (that point of consciousness in each of us which is
able to detachedly, and impersonally watch the actions of the
desires, the mind and the physical body. For this REAL MAN (and
WOMAN) there is the continuity of consciousness and memory which
makes all these considerations and study worthwhile. If we are
sure that all we have worked for "dies" with the body and brain
at the time of physical death, then there is small effort for
continuing efforts and study.

Information may be considered and judicious weight be given to
any given item that merits consideration -- and again, there is
no coercion in this method and opportunity.

With this in view and while there may be many personal opinions,
there ought to be also some area of debate on WHAT THEOSOPHY
TEACHES -- appealing to the record left to us to study.

And further, no one can assume the right to tell anyone else how
or where to study. Decisions have to be left to the common sense
and volition of each individual. In fact there is no other way
in which anyone advances, in any case, even in the structure of a
curriculum. But one can always consult and exchange views and
thoughts and ask questions that may open the doors of search and
thought for the future weal of all of us.

I think this is a sound basis for our meetings and thinking
together, is it not?

Dallas



D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: kymsmith@micron.net [mailto:kymsmith@micron.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:48 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: theos-l digest: October 21, 2000

Dallas wrote:

>Do we truly know what Theosophy has taught concerning this vast
>subject?

No, because Theosophy itself does not offer hard and fast rules
regarding
any subject. In every examination of Theosophical "Truths",
Theosophy also
provides a loophole, a "but", an "if", an exception.
Individual/human
interpretations of Theosophy may not provide these "maybes," but
pure
Theosophy does.

As Bart reminded me, and Theosophy claims: It is a SEARCH for
Truth.

And the search itself is not an answer. If it was an answer,
there would
be no need for search.


Kym


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From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 09:09:22 2000
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To: 
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:13:18 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

None of us can depend on authority or anyone else to do our thinking and
understanding. Blavatsky, Bailey, D.K., etc may think clearly and
understand that thought deeply. If so it is because of many lives of
practice and effort. I understand the Buddha said He did not teach the
written Veda; he taught the Veda written in the Heart. It is not until we
each learn to meditate in our own choosen way that we learn about the
creative contemplative life. The source is the one life we all share
together and express as best we can through many and varied ways. Many of
us have many qualities that are advanced and shining, but each of us must
develop all the qualities of life into the advanced and shining state. It
is to each of us to become the best human being that we can be. This may be
from reading and studying, leading a nation or helping to civilize the world
or combinations thereof. Oh to find and do that which we truely love doing
and tolerate the expressions of all others bound in the same process! It is
this that translates love into action.

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Lidofsky" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


> Dennis Kier wrote:
> > If AAB was getting the same messages, in the same way, then one could
> > expect the teachings and writings to be tinged with the language,
> > thought patterns, and background of AAB when they appeared on paper.
>
> That has been my supposition, as well. When comparing Blavatsky's
> "inspired" writings vs. her other writings, and comparing Bailey's
> "inspired" writings vs. HER other writings, one can see what sort of
> things might be edited out. I, for one, notice that Blavatsky made a
> concerted effort to supress her personal prejudices; Bailey does not
> make anywhere nearly as much of an effort. Her fundamentalist Christian
> background, her racism and religionism are apparent in her unchannelled
> writings, and can be found in the channeled works, as well, once you
> know what to look for. Which, in turn, makes it easier to find the gems
> among the chaff (of course, I find far more chaff than most, but that
> could be my OWN prejudices....)
>
> Bart Lidofsky
>
>
>
>
>


From nick.weeks@att.net Sun Oct 22 09:29:29 2000
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Subject: Re: Authority of thought
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From: "Nick Weeks" 

From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

> None of us can depend on authority or anyone else to do our thinking and
> understanding.

Conversely, no one can depend only on "our" own thinking. No man is an
island, in our thought-life especially. An original thought is rarer than
hen's teeth. To try to ignore the thoughts of "others" whether authorities
or not, and focus only on what seems to be "our" thoughts, just fosters
self-centeredness.

>Oh to find and do that which we truly love doing
> and tolerate the expressions of all others bound in the same process! It is
> this that translates love into action.

Which surely includes tolerating expressions of criticism without reacting.
For is not love "long-suffering"?

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles



From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 09:46:23 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:50:21 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thankyou, Frank. The Chinese have a saying, "Put your worst foot forward."
I think that people can look at all the bad things being said about Bailey
and then avoid looking at the material, especially Cosmic Fire and Rays and
the Intitiations and save themselves alot of "wasted" time. It is wonderful
when one is intelligent enough to see, clearly, that a certain way is the
wrong way and warn others. And it is important for others to heed these
warnings. I've spent 25 years studying Blavatsky and Bailey and I've
sacrificed the traditional medical career in order to do this. But. You
know? It will be worth it when I discover, the hard way, that the Bailey
Books are false and all these years of love of them and of studying were
wasted. Then I will have solidly learned, by my own choosen experience, of
which way not to go and can then come back to the true path no longer
tempted like those poor fools that still find in them(the 24 volumes of
A.A.B) a deeply attractive force in the world of sorrow and confusion.
There is the electric fire, the energy of the entire mental state of
consciousness. There is the solar fire, the energy of the mental body of
each of us, and then there is the fire by friction, the energy of the
relationship of electric fire and solar fire, wherein we learn the hard way
by many many lives of hard own experience. One day we will all wise up.
"Those who know do least."

Love,
Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey


> >ancient wisdom in English that is available. I have also read all of
HPB's
> >texts several times over a twenty-five year period and they are the best
> >too. HPB communicates with the academic community and Bailey gives
indepth
>
> That is your opninon, Eugene. I have read both writers too and I came to
> otehr conclusions. There is nothing of really worth in the Bailey
writings,
> all Theosophy simplified and distorted on the dead letter plane. No life
in
> it.
> The Edmonton TS has the reprint of "The Pseudo-Occultism of Mrs. A Bailey"
> in its programe. Very helpful for beginners to open the eyes and look
> deeper.
> There you find in the intro by the authors, wellknown Theosophists Alice
L.
> Cleather (HPB pupil) and Basil Crump, a quote from Master KH from p. 322
of
> the Mahatma letter, why Bailey forced the Christian church sheme under the
> mask and with the terms of HPB:
> "'The opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have
> enthusiastic help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan an the Vatican!' - Hence the
> Christian terminology that characterises some of their efforts in the
realm
> of Occultism."
>
> >love and respect both. Anyway, for all of us it can be an exercise in
> >tolerlance; an opportunity to learn from one another.
>
> I agree, everyone is free to follow whom he wants, but the border line is
> when such teachings like those are labeled as Theosophy and therefore
> misleads the public.
> Steiner too changed the teachings like AAB, but he was so fair to give it
a
> new name. If Bailey would have labeled it XYZ, then no Theosophist would
be
> forced to protest.
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 09:50:14 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:54:02 -0700
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Frank,

It seems that the idea of a personal god is o.k. and not in conflict with H=
PB as long as there is a mature theological understanding, pantheistic, of =
a personal god, such as taught in the writings of Teilhard De Chardin. All=
conflicts of this nature are resolvable in understanding the perspective o=
f the other.

Gene

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frank Reitemeyer=20
To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


>The AAB/HBP conflict is in parallel with the subjective world view/objec=
tive
>world view problem. It is the Higher Self that knows the solution to th=
is
>problem. It is simple:(beyond all belief, beyond all possible thought)
>Love. Can we find the transpersonal will to do so?
>
>Gene

False. Either the idea of a personal God and the worship of him (and his =
agents on Earth) is true or it is as Master KH and HPB wrote a nightmare's =
dream. That is not the problem of being subjetive or objective, it is a mat=
ter of truth. And since Alice Bailey dreamed of the revitalization of the V=
atican in the 1960's (her ex-secretary Dr. Bratina, later becoming a Theoso=
phist in Italy, confirms that as eye-witness) and taught a personal God and=
claimed to have received this form the same or even higher source ("The Ti=
betan"!!) as HPB, Bailey is for me one of the outer tools of the Dark Lodge=
, working to destroy the Theosophical Movement, which teaches freedom from =
the God nightmare.
Frank


eGroups Sponsor=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20


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Frank,


 


It seems that the idea of a personal god i=
s o.k.=20
and not in conflict with HPB as long as there is a mature theological=20
understanding, pantheistic, of a personal god, such as taught in the writin=
gs of=20
Teilhard De Chardin.  All conflicts of this nature are resolvable in=20
understanding the perspective of the other.


 


Gene


 



----- Original Message ----- 

Fro=
m:=20
Frank=20
Reitemeyer 



Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 =
1:19=20
PM


Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctr=
ine of=20
Avataras and The Christ





>The AAB/HBP conflict is in parallel with the subjective worl=
d=20
view/objective
>world view problem.  It is the Higher Self tha=
t=20
knows the solution to this
>problem.  It is simple:(beyond all=
=20
belief, beyond all possible thought)
>Love.  Can we find the=20
transpersonal will to do so?
>
>Gene


False. Either the idea of a personal God and =
the=20
worship of him (and his agents on Earth) is true or it is as Master KH an=
d HPB=20
wrote a nightmare's dream. That is not the problem of being subjetive or=
=20
objective, it is a matter of truth. And since Alice Bailey dreamed of the=
=20
revitalization of the Vatican in the 1960's (her ex-secretary Dr. Bratina=
,=20
later becoming a Theosophist in Italy, confirms that as eye-witness) and=
=20
taught a personal God and claimed to have received this form the same or =
even=20
higher source ("The Tibetan"!!) as HPB, Bailey is for me one of the =
outer=20
tools of the Dark Lodge, working to destroy the Theosophical Movement, wh=
ich=20
teaches freedom from the God nightmare.


Frank


 



------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C03C0E.06B5A470--

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 10:53:16 2000
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To: 
References: <20001020183336.13416.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:57:13 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Good. Thanks. I'll look at the web page. After many years I've decided to
learn more mathematics and go the route of Franklin Merrill Wolfe as
mathematics is a good language to know in trying to relate theosophy to
scientists. I am interested in meeting all theosophy students and
particularly those interested in A.A.B and then super particulary in those
who are interested in the geometrical key to understanding the materials.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stanley Zurawski" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?


>
> --- theo73@webtv.net wrote:
> > Hi Gene
> > Glad to hear you are interested!
> > We are an independent group of students from ULT in
> > L.A.
> > Our web site is at
> > www.lbtheosophycenter.com
> > Drop around, Wit and all
> >
> > Dorothy Lord
> >
> > I live in Malibu I have been interest THeosophy,
> Alice Bailey I am working to form meetings in the
> Golden Dome which should be finished in a couple of
> months.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 10:53:54 2000
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To: 
References: <9936-39EEE984-152@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:57:52 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks. I look forward to meeting you.

Gene


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?


> Hi Gene
> Glad to hear you are interested!
> We are an independent group of students from ULT in L.A.
> Our web site is at 
> www.lbtheosophycenter.com
> Drop around, Wit and all
> 
> Dorothy Lord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 10:54:45 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EC5AA4.DB08D020@wisdomworld.org> <3.0.5.32.20001018180925.007b2980@mail.telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:58:42 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks so much Todd. I appreciate you e-mails very much.

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Lorentz" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey


>
> Gene,
>
> Beautifully expressed. Thank you for your wonderful insight.
>
> With deepest regards,
> Todd
>
> At 07:57 AM 18/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >Todd,
> >
> >True. Alice Bailey is only for some. I have found the materials
wonderful,
> >well organized, to say the least, and the best source of information on
the
> >ancient wisdom in English that is available. I have also read all of
HPB's
> >texts several times over a twenty-five year period and they are the best
> >too. HPB communicates with the academic community and Bailey gives
indepth
> >knowedge to those who accept what HPB writes and wish to go further into
the
> >studies. HPB gives oodles of references and Bailey gives only a few.
HPB
> >let's scholars know of the ancient wisdom teachings and Bailey then gives
> >forth the teachings in the english language. HPB points out that all of
the
> >available sources are veiled or distorted by overly zealous editors,
etc.
> >and Bailey gives out a set of books that can sooth that source of angst.
> >One set is more suitable to the intellectual/academic community and is
> >written primarily for them; the other for the intuitive community who
have
> >already been convinced by HPB that theosophy is where it is at.
> >
> >This is all mere opinion which counts for little within this field. Each
> >lives their own life and wisely is lead to think for themselves. There
are
> >different ashrams and as in the exoteric churches it is often the least
> >knowledgable that are the most in conflict with each other and with the
> >other sects/ashrams. Rational minds converge. I may not be there now,
but
> >I'll meet you there. There are those who love HPB and don't love Bailey.
> >There are those who love Bailey but don't love HPB. There are those who
> >love and respect both. Anyway, for all of us it can be an exercise in
> >tolerlance; an opportunity to learn from one another.
> >
> >Gene
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>


From dalval@nwc.net Sun Oct 22 11:09:03 2000
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Reply-To: 
To: "Theosophy Study List" 
Subject: RE: Abortion & nature's design
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:56:06 -0700
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Dallas Tenbroeck 

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As I read the literature the Spiritual Soul of the REAL MAN
(ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) reincarnates under Karma. It is the eternal Pilgrim
(Monad) and is imperishable.

As we currently live our lives from moment to moment we make choices. These
choices are either harmonious or disharmonious in regard to Nature, which is
a vast KARMIC envelope from which none is exempt, nor can anyone escape from
it and its restrictions.

The vehicle used by it (the Reincarnating Ego) for this purpose is also
assembled by Karma -- an aspect of the great law that sees to providing the
right “skandhas” at the correct time (of incarnation) to those who under
Karma are destined to provide the “new” home (actually reassembled from old
material which is also imperishable)

It seems to me that abortion is an external intervention (on the physical
plane) that terminates the life of the incoming assembly of Ego and Body
(vehicle) along with all the intermediary links (related to the intervening
“principles.”

The motive for an abortion alters according to need. If the forthcoming
child body is a threat to the mother’s life, then a decision to remove it
may be made, and so on in various degrees -- but, all are motives, and will
bear their Karmic consequences.

It seems to me that in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) as also in other places in
the Literature attention to the details of this situation is described. I
think we ought to refer to that so that we at least know what the
Theosophical arguments are.

Best wishes,

Dallas

D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Weeks [mailto:Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:00 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Abortion & nature's design

In HPB's article Theories about Reincarnation and Spirits she gives a
reason why abortion works against the spiritual evolution of the soul within
the aborted form. Those aborted bodies will be, of course, about 50%
female.
*****************
"Reincarnation i.e., the appearance of the same individual, or rather of his
astral monad, twice on the same planet is not a rule in nature, it is an
exception, like the teratological phenomenon of a two-headed infant. It is
preceded by a violation of the laws of harmony of nature, and happens only
when the latter seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently
throws back into earth-life the astral monad which had been tossed out of
the circle of necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases of abortion, of
infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy,
nature's original design to produce a perfect human being, has been
interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several
entities is suffered to disperse itself at death, through the vast realm of
being, the immortal spirit and astral monad of the individual--the latter
having been set apart to animate a frame and the former to shed its divine
light on the corporeal organization--must try a second time to carry out the
purpose of the creative intelligence. (Isis I, 351.)
Here the "astral monad" or body of the deceased personality--say of John or
Thomas--is meant. It is that which, in the teachings of the Esoteric
philosophy of Hinduism, is known under its name of bhoot; in the Greek
philosophy is called the simulacrum or umbra, and in all other philosophies
worthy of the name is said, as taught in the former, to disappear after a
certain period more or less prolonged in Kama-loka--the Limbus of the Roman
Catholics, or Hades of the Greeks. It is "a violation of the laws of harmony
of nature," though it be so decreed by those of Karma--every time that the
astral monad, or the simulacrum of the personality--of John or
Thomas--instead of running down to the end of its natural period of time in
a body--finds itself (a) violently thrown out of it by whether early death
or accident; or (b) is compelled in consequence of its unfinished task to
re-appear (i.e., the same astral body wedded to the same immortal monad) on
earth again, in order to complete the unfinished task. Thus "it must try a
second time to carry out the purpose of creative intelligence" or law."
Fare Thee Well,
Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net  <> Los Angeles
---
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As I=
read
the literature the Spiritual Soul of the REAL MAN  (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) reincarnates under Karma.  It is the eternal Pilgrim (Monad)=
and
is imperishable.



 



As w=
e
currently live our lives from moment to moment we make choices.  These choices are either harmonio=
us or
disharmonious in regard to Nature, which is a vast KARMIC envelope from whi=
ch
none is exempt, nor can anyone escape from it and its restrictions.



 



The
vehicle used by it (the Reincarnating Ego) for this purpose is also assembl=
ed
by Karma -- an aspect of the great law that sees to providing the right
“skandhas” at the correct time (of incarnation) to those who un=
der Karma are
destined to provide the “new” home 
(actually reassembled from old material which is also imperishable) =




 



It s=
eems
to me that abortion is an external intervention (on the physical plane) tha=
t
terminates the life of the incoming assembly of Ego and Body (vehicle) alon=
g
with all the intermediary links (related to the intervening “principl=
es.”



 



The =
motive
for an abortion alters according to need.=
 
If the forthcoming child body is a threat to the mother’s life=
, then a
decision to remove it may be made, and so on in various degrees -- but, all=
are
motives, and will bear their Karmic consequences.  



 



It s=
eems
to me that in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) as also in other places in the
Literature attention to the details of this situation is described.  I think we ought to refer to that=
so
that we at least know what the Theosophical arguments are.



 



Best
wishes,



 



Dall=
as



 



D. T. B.



 



-----Original
Message-----

From: Nick Weeks
[mailto:Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net]

Sent: Sunday, October 22, 20=
00
10:00 AM

To: Theosophy Study List

Subject: Abortion & natu=
re's
design



 



=
In HPB's
article Theories about Reincarnation and Spirits  she
gives a reason why abortion works against the spiritual evolution of the
soul within the aborted form.  Those aborted bodies wil=
l
be, of course,  about 50% female. =
*********=
********=
"Rei=
ncarnation
i.e., the appearance of the=
same
individual, or rather of his astral mo=
nad,
twice on the same planet is=
not
a rule in nature, it is an exception, like the teratological phenomenon of =
a
two-headed infant. It is preceded by a violation
of the laws of harmony of nature, and happens only when the latt=
er seeking to restore its disturbed equilibrium, violently throws back in=
to
earth-life the astral monad which had been tossed out of the circle of
necessity by crime or accident. Thus in cases of abortion, of
infants dying before a certain age, and of congenital and incurable idiocy,
nature's original design to produce a perfect human being, has been
interrupted. Therefore, while the gross matter of each of these several
entities is suffered to disperse itself at death, through the vast realm of
being, the immortal spirit and astral =
monad
of the individual--the latter having been set apart to animate a
frame and the former to shed its divine light on the corporeal organization=
--must try a second time to carry out the purpose=
of
the creative intelligence. (Isis
I, 351.) 



Here the
"astral monad" or body of the deceased personality--say of John o=
r
Thomas--is meant. It is that which, in the teachings of the Esoteric philos=
ophy
of Hinduism, is known under its name of bhoot;
in the Greek philosophy is called the simulacrum or umbra=
, and
in all other philosophies worthy of the name is said, as =
taught
in the former, to disappear after a certain period more or less prolonged i=
n Kama-loka--the Limbus of the Roman
Catholics, or Hades of the
Greeks. It is &quo=
t;a
violation of the laws of harmony of nature," though it be so decreed b=
y
those of Karma--every time =
that
the astral monad, or the simulacrum of
the personality--of John or Thomas--instead of running down to the end of i=
ts
natural period of time in a body--finds itself (a) violently thrown out of =
it
by whether early death or accident; or (b) is compelled in consequence of i=
ts
unfinished task to re-appear (i.e., th=
e same
astral body wedded to the same immortal monad) on earth again, i=
n order
to complete the unfinished task. Thus "it must try a
second time to carry out the purpose of creative intelligence" or <=
span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>law."



Fare Thee=
Well,Nicholas
<> nick.weeks@.att.net <=
;>
Los Angeles 



---
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From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 11:51:08 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <00d001c0384c$1ed1a6a0$8fde603e@FrankReitemeyer> <000201c03957$08ed95e0$eae9b3d1@u7k5a4> <39EE5F30.9CF168CC@sprynet.com> <001101c03c42$fdbb42f0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> <000401c03c46$26ba6160$1d2b480c@pavilion>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:55:05 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thankyou, Nick. In the context of the conditioned world of empircism I
agree with you that no man is an island. We must share opinions and help
each other experience the world, but when it comes to getting into
heaven(Atma-Buddhi-(Higher)Manas) we each need to understand the
Self-evident Truth ourselves and make our own deductions and understand the
proofs that each deductive step is true and certain. In tuning a piano
opinion doesn't help me much. The proper tone to start with is important.
The proper tools are important and then testing each tuning and proving to
myself that the tuning is proper, is important. Opinion of others seems
important in the inductive logical realm but not in the deductive logical
realm. We either understand or we don't. In one we start with particulars
and together work our way upwards. In the other we see the universal
fundamentals and work downward through the intuition by deductive logic.

This is mere opinion. Admittedly I'm a big wanna-be, very dependent on the
opinions of others, but I'm learning to think for myself as I become more
and more alone(all one).

Sincerely,
Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Weeks" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought


> From: "Eugene Carpenter" 
>
> > None of us can depend on authority or anyone else to do our thinking and
> > understanding.
>
> Conversely, no one can depend only on "our" own thinking. No man is an
> island, in our thought-life especially. An original thought is rarer than
> hen's teeth. To try to ignore the thoughts of "others" whether
authorities
> or not, and focus only on what seems to be "our" thoughts, just fosters
> self-centeredness.
>
> >Oh to find and do that which we truly love doing
> > and tolerate the expressions of all others bound in the same process! It
is
> > this that translates love into action.
>
> Which surely includes tolerating expressions of criticism without
reacting.
> For is not love "long-suffering"?
>
> Fare Thee Well,
>
> Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From nick.weeks@att.net Sun Oct 22 11:51:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World How best to share Theosophy?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:57:44 -0700
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From: "Nick Weeks" 


>I am interested in meeting all theosophy students and
> particularly those interested in A.A.B and then super particularly in those
> who are interested in the geometrical key to understanding the materials.
>
> Gene

Have you read the late Gordon Plummer's MATHEMATICS OF THE COSMIC MIND or his
BY THE HOLY TETRAKTYS or THREE STEPS TO INFINITY? He very much focused on
the geometrical key. Point Loma Publications has them at:
www.wisdomtraditions.com Plummer had no interest in AAB, however.

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles



From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 11:55:52 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 11:59:49 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks, Todd. I agree whole heartedly. I've noticed, with my own daughter,
that it is her free will that is important. Yes. Yes. Yes. It is a matter
of free will. People must learn either through thought or through
exprerience. We must be allowed to disobey the law and learn by the
consequences or we will never learn to be like the gods.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Lorentz" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler


>
> Hi Gene,
>
> That is my understanding also. The Black Lodge uses a form of
> "overshadowing" which infringes, in a subtle way, upon the freewill of the
> individual. The White Lodge has more "restrictions" on their
opportunities
> because they will not infringe upon the freewill of individuals. In
either
> case, the individual needs to be advanced or sensitive enough (initiate or
> near-initiate) to maintain any form of contact or influence.
>
> Todd
>
> At 08:05 AM 18/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >My understanding is that both Hitler and Stalin were personalities of
> >Initiates of high standing in the Black Lodge. There are Initiates of
White
> >Magic and Black Magic are there not?
> >
> >Gene
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:18 AM
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Hitler
> >
> >
> >> Shampan,
> >> Hitler and Stalin were the greatest mass murders in the 20th Century.
> >Hitler
> >> has killed around 6 Millions, Stalins is said to have executed 70-100
> >> Millions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>


From nick.weeks@att.net Sun Oct 22 12:18:22 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:24:45 -0700
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From: "Nick Weeks" 

From: "Eugene Carpenter" 


> Thankyou, Nick. In the context of the conditioned world of empircism I
> agree with you that no man is an island. We must share opinions and help
> each other experience the world, but when it comes to getting into
> heaven(Atma-Buddhi-(Higher)Manas) we each need to understand the
> Self-evident Truth ourselves and make our own deductions and understand the
> proofs that each deductive step is true and certain.

Nothing was said about "opinion", only thought, i.e. the content of our
awareness. I was just trying to suggest that our feelings, words, thoughts,
even our motives, are very much dependent on the surrounding astral/
mental/sensory atmosphere. What we DO with that content is where the
"self-induced and self-devised" individual's control of his evolution comes
in.

Therefore why put up any attitudinal barriers to the source of inspiration?
What does it matter if it comes from "outside" us in the form of an
"opinion"? We are the ones who decide what to embrace or reject, whether the
feeling, thought, vision etc. is supposedly "internal" or "external". If we
always accept the "internal" believing it is "ours" and thus "truer" and
reject the "external" believing it to be "theirs" and thus less true, then
delusion is virtually guaranteed. Discrimination or discernment are a key.
The source of what is pondered on is irrelevant.

> In tuning a piano
> opinion doesn't help me much. The proper tone to start with is important.
> The proper tools are important and then testing each tuning and proving to
> myself that the tuning is proper, is important.

If one knows nothing about piano tuning for oneself, then no tool or tone
will help. Perhaps there are savants who are born with piano tuning skills
remembered perfectly from another life -- but most of us need guidance. What
form that takes varies.

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles



From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 13:40:38 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:44:35 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Nick,

Thanks. I agree. Up to a point. Then with a wonderful sense of all that
was learned in past lives from "others" we walk on ahead alone(all one).

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Weeks" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought


> From: "Eugene Carpenter" 
>
>
> > Thankyou, Nick. In the context of the conditioned world of empircism I
> > agree with you that no man is an island. We must share opinions and
help
> > each other experience the world, but when it comes to getting into
> > heaven(Atma-Buddhi-(Higher)Manas) we each need to understand the
> > Self-evident Truth ourselves and make our own deductions and understand
the
> > proofs that each deductive step is true and certain.
>
> Nothing was said about "opinion", only thought, i.e. the content of our
> awareness. I was just trying to suggest that our feelings, words,
thoughts,
> even our motives, are very much dependent on the surrounding astral/
> mental/sensory atmosphere. What we DO with that content is where the
> "self-induced and self-devised" individual's control of his evolution
comes
> in.
>
> Therefore why put up any attitudinal barriers to the source of
inspiration?
> What does it matter if it comes from "outside" us in the form of an
> "opinion"? We are the ones who decide what to embrace or reject, whether
the
> feeling, thought, vision etc. is supposedly "internal" or "external". If
we
> always accept the "internal" believing it is "ours" and thus "truer" and
> reject the "external" believing it to be "theirs" and thus less true, then
> delusion is virtually guaranteed. Discrimination or discernment are a
key.
> The source of what is pondered on is irrelevant.
>
> > In tuning a piano
> > opinion doesn't help me much. The proper tone to start with is
important.
> > The proper tools are important and then testing each tuning and proving
to
> > myself that the tuning is proper, is important.
>
> If one knows nothing about piano tuning for oneself, then no tool or tone
> will help. Perhaps there are savants who are born with piano tuning
skills
> remembered perfectly from another life -- but most of us need guidance.
What
> form that takes varies.
>
> Fare Thee Well,
>
> Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From tlorentz@telusplanet.net Sun Oct 22 17:00:09 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought
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From: Todd Lorentz 


Hi Gene,

>Thanks. I agree. Up to a point. Then with 
>a wonderful sense of all that was learned in 
>past lives from "others" we walk on ahead alone(all one).

I love your use of the term "alone (all one)" and remember clearly that
point being made in my personal study. I have contemplated that notion of
aloneness, both in the sense of actuality and as illusion. An interesting
point on aloneness, perhaps, is the experience of it as a glamour. It is
said that the most difficult stage of initiation is when taking the 4th.
Prior to this, the individual has been experiencing themself as one *with*
everything, as containing the same nature (particularly by the 3rd
initiation). If I could generalize here and speak crudely, "the individual
is walking around feeling a sense of union with nature around them, finding
identificaiton with it all, and loving everything". But there is still a
subtle sense of "subject-object" in that view of "loving others". At the
fourth, the realization occurs that there is no "other" to Love. There is
*only* the One. There is no object/thing to love anymore. You are not one
*with* all things......you *are* all things. You are ALONE (ALL ONE) in
the universe. That, from the limited perspective that I currently
possess, would seem to me to be one of the most "lonely" experiences for
the personality to endure. It blows my mind. Just something to think
about....

Todd 



From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Oct 22 17:41:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:45:03 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Todd. You have written very beautifully, and I can see you understand and
are not alone. It must be that one realizes that one is the planetary logos
but doesn't have the consciousness yet to contact the others, momentarily,
like the amoeba prior to sensing the other of it's own kind.

One has gone from self-consciousness to group consciousness and the path to
solar logoic consciousness stretches out ahead.

Thankyou. Everything you wrote resonates wonderfully well especially if I
"sense" it mostly with my heart.

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Lorentz" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Authority of thought


>
> Hi Gene,
>
> >Thanks. I agree. Up to a point. Then with
> >a wonderful sense of all that was learned in
> >past lives from "others" we walk on ahead alone(all one).
>
> I love your use of the term "alone (all one)" and remember clearly that
> point being made in my personal study. I have contemplated that notion of
> aloneness, both in the sense of actuality and as illusion. An interesting
> point on aloneness, perhaps, is the experience of it as a glamour. It is
> said that the most difficult stage of initiation is when taking the 4th.
> Prior to this, the individual has been experiencing themself as one *with*
> everything, as containing the same nature (particularly by the 3rd
> initiation). If I could generalize here and speak crudely, "the
individual
> is walking around feeling a sense of union with nature around them,
finding
> identificaiton with it all, and loving everything". But there is still a
> subtle sense of "subject-object" in that view of "loving others". At the
> fourth, the realization occurs that there is no "other" to Love. There is
> *only* the One. There is no object/thing to love anymore. You are not
one
> *with* all things......you *are* all things. You are ALONE (ALL ONE) in
> the universe. That, from the limited perspective that I currently
> possess, would seem to me to be one of the most "lonely" experiences for
> the personality to endure. It blows my mind. Just something to think
> about....
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 22 19:13:32 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: The matter of authority in seeking truth...
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

I think the issue of "authority" in seeking truth applies to an 
issue raised by Dallas in his sixth point:

6. Obviously if one does not study the record of Theosophy,
(I mean the literature left to us primarily by HPB and the
Masters in Their articles and letters) one is not in a position
to debate it either pro or con. Such discussion as has real and
continuing value arises between students who have made 
themselves
familiar with the records, and can discuss them accurately...

While I respect the dedication of Dallas to the records of 
theosophy I doubt that this alone should be a criteria in an 
argument. 

It seems to me that a kind of mind set or thought form is not 
needed when confronting or dealing with truth, which is after all 
the motto of the TS..."there is no religion higher than truth" ...we 
cannot expect the rest of the world to beat our doors down 
waiting in baited breath for the last word of any of these past 
writers and authorities in Theosophy, in fact it is often quoted that 
we should not rely on past authority simply because ---- said it! 
So if the most hallowed and revered among us is contradicted by 
a reality or truth, our duty is not to bury our heads further into
the 
sand, but to appreciate truth as we can understand it and be 
guided by that understanding. 


- Art


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Oct 22 19:29:17 2000
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Subject: What Gautama said to the peopel of Kalama:
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

As Gautama said to the people of Kalama:
Do not believe anything simply, because you have acquired it by=20
repeated hearing.
Do not believe in traditions or customs because they have been=20
handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumoured by=20
many.
Do not believe anything simply because it is written in scripture;=20
nor upon surmise;
nor upon axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon=20
another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk=20
is our teacher',.
Kalamas, when you yourselves know, then accept it and live up=20
to it.
"It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain,=20
uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful".
Also remember that the past thought has gone, the future=20
thought has not occurred and the present thought does not=20
withstand detailed scrutiny.=20

99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
=A0


From nick.weeks@att.net Sun Oct 22 20:33:36 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World More of What Gautama said to Kalamas
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:39:44 -0700
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From: "Nick Weeks" 

The passage Art uses is often so misquoted. Actually the Kalama Sutta is not
quite as anti-authority as many would like. But if one ignores a few lines
here and there it can appear that way.

First, the Kalamas approach Buddha for advice. If He really intended to
foster their total self-reliance He would have sent them away with "Don't ask
me, go within yourselves." But He did not do so.
***********

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has
arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has
been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor
upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon
specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered
over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The
monk is our teacher.' "

At this point comes the blurring of the teaching. Actually Buddha suggested
three criteria for rejecting (or accepting) a teaching.

"Kalamas, when you yourselves know:

1) 'These things are bad; these things are blamable;

2) these things are censured by the wise;

3) undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon
them."

Numbers 1 says when you know for yourself that something is bad -- drop it.
Number 3 says when you know for yourself that something will eventually lead
to badness -- drop it. However, number 2 says take into account what wise
authorities say. Can this be? Pay attention to someone other than ME?
Evidently Buddha thought total self-reliance was not a good idea.

Later on the sutta gives the 3 criteria that should be applied to accepting
a teaching. He repeats the same threefold advice, including paying attention
to whether wise authorities praise something. If they do, then follow their
example.

One can study a couple of translations and a commentary by Bhikku Bodhi at
the Access to Insight webpage.

Considering the volumes of Buddhist works praising spiritual authorities and
requiring their guidance for the aspirant, it is ridiculous to keep harping
on this one out-of-context misquote as an authority (what an irony, eh?) for
ignoring all but ones own views.

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles








From ringding@blinx.de Mon Oct 23 05:44:06 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:37:23 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

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Gene, may be. HPB called that Jesuitism. For me a half truth is a full lie.=
=20
When Bailey f.e. writes:
"The Law of Attraction... deals with the ability of the Logos to 'love wise=
ly' in the occult sense of the term. It has relation to the polarization of=
the Logos in His astral body, and produces the phenomenon called 'sex acti=
vity' (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, p. 721).

My humble questions to you:
1. Does this quote show that AAB believed in a personel God or not?
2. If not, why she refers to the Logos as a he, even with a capital H?
3. Many balck magicians are seeking to gain "powers" by practise sex magic,=
like O.T.O., Crowley, Leadbeater. Is the argument of Bailey that=20
the Logos is connected with sex activity the "occult" rationale for the sah=
dow Brothers?
Thanks.
Frank

Frank,

It seems that the idea of a personal god is o.k. and not in conflict with=
HPB as long as there is a mature theological understanding, pantheistic, o=
f a personal god, such as taught in the writings of Teilhard De Chardin. A=
ll conflicts of this nature are resolvable in understanding the perspective=
of the other.

Gene

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Gene, may be. HPB called that Jesui=
tism. For=20
me a half truth is a full lie. 


When Bailey f.e. writes:

"The Law of Attraction... deals wit=
h the=20
ability of the Logos to 'love wisely' in the occult sense of the term. It h=
as=20
relation to the polarization of the Logos in His astral body, and produces =
the=20
phenomenon called 'sex activity' (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, p.=20
721).


 


My humble questions to you:<=
/DIV>

1. Does this quote show that AAB be=
lieved in=20
a personel God or not?


2. If not, why she refers to the Lo=
gos as a=20
he, even with a capital H?


3. Many balck magicians are seeking=
to gain=20
"powers" by practise sex magic, like O.T.O., Crowley, Leadbeater. Is the=20
argument of Bailey that 


the Logos is connected with sex act=
ivity the=20
"occult" rationale for the sahdow Brothers?


Thanks.


Frank


 




Frank,


 


It seems that the idea of a personal god=
is o.k.=20
and not in conflict with HPB as long as there is a mature theological=20
understanding, pantheistic, of a personal god, such as taught in the writ=
ings=20
of Teilhard De Chardin.  All conflicts of this nature are resolvable=
in=20
understanding the perspective of the other.


 


Gene


------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C03CF6.602DA780--

From ringding@blinx.de Mon Oct 23 05:44:08 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EC5AA4.DB08D020@wisdomworld.org> <001f01c03913$dd61f440$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> <000401c0394d$c0dc4520$86de603e@FrankReitemeyer> <006c01c03c48$2a9a96e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:57:22 +0200
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From: "Frank Reitemeyer" 

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Gene,
no good Theosophist will accept anything in metaphysics on authority only. =
That was HPBs way and it is consonant with a series of spritual teachers th=
rough the ages.
But by point was not that you waste your time by studying Bailey. It is you=
r time. My point was only that I have found out that the Bailey writings ar=
e not true Theosophy, but rather Theosophy misunderstood, if not faked. I o=
nly protest that Bailey is described as Theosophist or even as successor of=
HPB. You have all the right to study and to love Bailey. But if you take t=
he right to call he a Theosophist, I too take the right to call her a Pseud=
o-Theosophist.
Many beginners in Theosophy have neither the time nor the energy to study 1=
5.000 Blavatsky pages and the Bailey stuff too and then come to own conclus=
ions. You need not only time, silence but additional much discrimination po=
wer. My hints were for those people, not for those who can study and find o=
ut for themselves. I know of many people who have studied their whole life =
with all their will and heart power, 4 and five decades, but they cannot in=
tellectually explain the difference between Bailey and Blavatskya lthough t=
hey feel it. For those are the comments. I don't force you to believe my co=
mments.
Frank

Thankyou, Frank. The Chinese have a saying, "Put your worst foot forward=
."
I think that people can look at all the bad things being said about Baile=
y
and then avoid looking at the material, especially Cosmic Fire and Rays a=
nd
the Intitiations and save themselves alot of "wasted" time. It is wonder=
ful
when one is intelligent enough to see, clearly, that a certain way is the
wrong way and warn others. And it is important for others to heed these
warnings. I've spent 25 years studying Blavatsky and Bailey and I've
sacrificed the traditional medical career in order to do this. But. You
know? It will be worth it when I discover, the hard way, that the Bailey
Books are false and all these years of love of them and of studying were
wasted. Then I will have solidly learned, by my own choosen experience, =
of
which way not to go and can then come back to the true path no longer
tempted like those poor fools that still find in them(the 24 volumes of
A.A.B) a deeply attractive force in the world of sorrow and confusion.
There is the electric fire, the energy of the entire mental state of
consciousness. There is the solar fire, the energy of the mental body of
each of us, and then there is the fire by friction, the energy of the
relationship of electric fire and solar fire, wherein we learn the hard =
way
by many many lives of hard own experience. One day we will all wise up.
"Those who know do least."

Love,
Gene


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Gene,


no good Theosophist will accept anything i=
n=20
metaphysics on authority only. That was HPBs way and it is consonant with a=
=20
series of spritual teachers through the ages.


But by point was not that you waste your t=
ime by=20
studying Bailey. It is your time. My point was only that I have found out t=
hat=20
the Bailey writings are not true Theosophy, but rather Theosophy misunderst=
ood,=20
if not faked. I only protest that Bailey is described as Theosophist or eve=
n as=20
successor of HPB. You have all the right to study and to love Bailey. But i=
f you=20
take the right to call he a Theosophist, I too take the right to call her a=
=20
Pseudo-Theosophist.


Many beginners in Theosophy have neither t=
he time=20
nor the energy to study 15.000 Blavatsky pages and the Bailey stuff too and=
then=20
come to own conclusions. You need not only time, silence but additional muc=
h=20
discrimination power. My hints were for those people, not for those who can=
=20
study and find out for themselves. I know of many people who have studied t=
heir=20
whole life with all their will and heart power, 4 and five decades, but the=
y=20
cannot intellectually explain the difference between Bailey and Blavatskya=
=20
lthough they feel it. For those are the comments. I don't force you to beli=
eve=20
my comments.


Frank

Thankyou,=20
Frank.  The Chinese have a saying, "Put your worst foot forward."I=20
think that people can look at all the bad things being said about=20
Bailey
and then avoid looking at the material, especially Cosmic Fire =
and=20
Rays and
the Intitiations and save themselves alot of "wasted" time.&n=
bsp;=20
It is wonderful
when one is intelligent enough to see, clearly, that a=
=20
certain way is the
wrong way and warn others.  And it is importan=
t for=20
others to heed these
warnings.  I've spent 25 years studying Blav=
atsky=20
and Bailey and I've
sacrificed the traditional medical career in order=
to=20
do this.  But.  You
know?  It will be worth it when I=20
discover, the hard way, that the Bailey
Books are false and all these =
years=20
of love of them and of studying were
wasted.  Then I will have so=
lidly=20
learned, by my own choosen experience, of
which way not to go and can =
then=20
come back to the true path no longer
tempted like those poor fools tha=
t=20
still find in them(the 24 volumes of
A.A.B) a deeply attractive force =
in=20
the world of sorrow and confusion.
There is the electric fire, the ene=
rgy=20
of the entire mental state of
consciousness.  There is the solar =
fire,=20
the energy of the mental body of
each of us, and then there is the fir=
e by=20
friction, the energy of the
relationship  of electric fire and so=
lar=20
fire, wherein we learn the hard way
by many many lives of hard own=20
experience.  One day we will all wise up.
"Those who know do=20
least."

Love,
Gene


------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01C03CF9.2A6D3FE0--

From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Oct 23 06:11:51 2000
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Subject: 15 more articles added to Wisdom World
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From: Compiler 

The finished articles are all from THEOSOPHY magazine.

Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 15 articles
added in the past seven days were all added to the "Additional"
page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings
of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles
that are being worked on at all times.

All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories
geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and
philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more
experienced students at all levels -- including the very
scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand
and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being
for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with
much profound and informative Theosophical information
that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be
"Supplementary" reading and study material for participants
of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes
and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, here on theos-talk.

As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful.

Compiler
-------

The "Additional Categories of Articles" page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

The "Main Page":
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------


From nous@btinternet.com Mon Oct 23 06:46:25 2000
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To: 
Subject: RE: Theos-World The matter of authority in seeking truth...
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:46:10 +0100
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From: "Peter Merriott" 

Art,

I think you are misrepresenting what Dallas wrote. The subject of his
discussion with Kym et al was: What does Theosophy teach?

He suggested, among many other things, that in order to answer this question
it would be valuable to have studied the writings already given to us by HPB
and the Mahatmas, the founders of the TS. He says if we don't know what
they have given us we are not really in a position to debate the fundamental
tenets found therein - either pro or con.

This makes sense, doesn't it. How could we discuss what Buddhism teaches,
the Upanishads, Sankara's commentaries on the latter, the teachings of
Jesus, Plato, Appolonius, Ammonius Saccas etc if we are not familiar with
material.

Dallas wrote:

> while there may be many personal opinions, there
> ought to be also some area of debate on WHAT THEOSOPHY
> TEACHES -- appealing to the record left to us to study.

I find this a reasonable suggestion which, again, could be applied to
Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity or any other focus of study.

You write:

> we cannot expect the rest of the world to beat our doors down
> waiting in baited breath for the last word of any of these past
> writers and authorities in Theosophy..

I don't believe any expectation was ever mentioned. What were mentioned
were suggestions for guidelines among fellow students of Theosophy.

You continue:

> ...in fact it is often quoted that we should not
> rely on past authority simply because ---- said it!

Well yes, but what has that got to do with what Dallas was saying. In fact
he wrote:

> Freedom and Brotherhood are the keys to the external
> Unity of Theosophy and its students and practitioners
> in the world. Openness is the only way in which we may
> all have even access to TRUTH. Science to be true has
> to consider all aspects and facts, so as to derive
> an accurate vision and concept of motive, action, result
> and what an ideal ought to be in such a case.

Art, to study the fundamental tenets of Theosophy as found in HPB and the
Mahatma's writings does not immediately equate with accepting something as
true says simply because they say it is. The same is the case when studying
the fundamental teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism & so on.

You seem to infer that to study HPB writings means one is caught up in the
past. Would you say the same is the case for any genuine study of the
worlds spiritual traditions and individuals, many of which lived before the
time of HPB? Or even of those individuals who lived after the time of HPB
but are now dead?

How does your eight month study of David Fiedeler's "Jesus Christ Sun of
God." fit into this notion of dwelling on past authorities?

Were you and your group members expecting "the rest of the world to beat
[y]our doors down waiting in baited breath for the last word.." that David
Fiedeler had to say on Jesus? If not then why use that statement in
reference to Dal's suggestion that we familiarise ourselves with what HPB
and the Mahatmas wrote?

You write:

> So if the most hallowed and revered among us is contradicted by
> a reality or truth, our duty is not to bury our heads further into
> the sand

Yes, I agree. And I think if we take Dal's advice and really familiarise
ourselves with the original writings of HPB and the Mahatma's we will have
an opportunity to discover the extent of some of these contradictions and
reflect on their importance or otherwise.

You suggest that we:

> appreciate truth as we can understand it and be
> guided by that understanding

That's a nice way of putting it.

...Peter




> -----Original Message-----
> From: arthra999@yahoo.com [mailto:arthra999@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 23 October 2000 03:13
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World The matter of authority in seeking truth...
>
>
> I think the issue of "authority" in seeking truth applies to an
> issue raised by Dallas in his sixth point:
>
> 6. Obviously if one does not study the record of Theosophy,
> (I mean the literature left to us primarily by HPB and the
> Masters in Their articles and letters) one is not in a position
> to debate it either pro or con. Such discussion as has real and
> continuing value arises between students who have made
> themselves
> familiar with the records, and can discuss them accurately...
>
> While I respect the dedication of Dallas to the records of
> theosophy I doubt that this alone should be a criteria in an
> argument.
>
> It seems to me that a kind of mind set or thought form is not
> needed when confronting or dealing with truth, which is after all
> the motto of the TS..."there is no religion higher than truth" ...we
> cannot expect the rest of the world to beat our doors down
> waiting in baited breath for the last word of any of these past
> writers and authorities in Theosophy, in fact it is often quoted that
> we should not rely on past authority simply because ---- said it!
> So if the most hallowed and revered among us is contradicted by
> a reality or truth, our duty is not to bury our heads further into
> the
> sand, but to appreciate truth as we can understand it and be
> guided by that understanding.
>
>
> - Art


From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 23 07:30:14 2000
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Subject: Regarding the Kalamass quotation:
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
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From: Arthur Gregory 

Nicholas wrote:

Considering the volumes of Buddhist works praising spiritual 
authorities and
requiring their guidance for the aspirant, it is ridiculous to keep 
harping
on this one out-of-context misquote as an authority (what an irony, 
eh?) for
ignoring all but ones own views.

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles

Thanks Nick for your interpretation of the Kalamas scripture... There
is a tradition in early Buddhist as well as Jaina thought that both
propositions of truth or views of reality can be correct in their own
way or context...


We have a tradition of debate that is sometimes fueling to the ego and
this is thus directed at intelligent but perhaps over valued polemics.

The Kalamas scripture also focuses on the processes of thought...so
thoughts themselves are in essence forms that enclose a void and the
sequence of thoughts while appearing to be connected is illusory. We
have this more fully developed in Zen philosophy.

Leadbeater in his book on the afterlife comments that we build towers
that separate us from reality and there are windows through which the
light of truth can be filtered. As the astral and thought bodies are
dissolved we are in essence our subtle etheric monadic form withou
tower or windows. You can see an anology here i think to those who
build a tower of theosophic thought forms around themselves and will
only allow a few rays of truth to brighten their cells... this is what
I would warn against.

My concern is that theosophy not become a religion with holy scripture
from Blavatsky or Bailey or etc. You can see the danger in this by the
references ro authority.


- Arthur Gregory





=====
"Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more expansive than the sky. Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this world."

- Bhakta-Parijna: 91

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
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From nick.weeks@att.net Mon Oct 23 08:44:45 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Regarding the Kalamass quotation:
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:50:50 -0700
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From: "Nick Weeks" 

Art:
> Leadbeater in his book on the afterlife comments that we build towers
> that separate us from reality and there are windows through which the
> light of truth can be filtered. As the astral and thought bodies are
> dissolved we are in essence our subtle etheric monadic form withou
> tower or windows. You can see an anology here i think to those who
> build a tower of theosophic thought forms around themselves and will
> only allow a few rays of truth to brighten their cells... this is what
> I would warn against.

Accepting for argument's sake that CWL knew what he was talking about, could
not his "towers" of thought forms also be built of Weeks-ic thought forms or
Gregory-ic thought forms? Ignoring external authority by replacing with it
with our personal authority seems profitless.

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas Weeks


From nick.weeks@att.net Mon Oct 23 09:08:20 2000
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To: "Theostalk" 
Subject: Theosophy's Shadow 
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:00:49 -0700
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Perhaps this old article critical of AAB's sources has not been read by som=
e on Theos-talk.

http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/baileyal.htm

Fare Thee Well,

Nicholas=20


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Perhaps this old article critical of AAB's=
=20
sources has not been read by some on Theos-talk.



 http://www.azstarne=
t.com/~blafoun/baileyal.htm


 


Fare Thee Well,


 


Nicholas 


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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:13:02 -0700
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Frank, please see below. I will mention my understanding of what she is wr=
iting. My understanding grows as I continue to study.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frank Reitemeyer=20
To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctrine of Avataras and The Christ


Gene, may be. HPB called that Jesuitism. For me a half truth is a full li=
e.


Respondant: Generally: There is a Hermetic statement that all "truth" is=
but half-truth and the equal and opposite is also "truth"(half-truth). Sp=
ecifically: Her statements do not appear to be half-truths in the way you =
seem to mean. And if they were, for the sake of argument, certainly a hal=
f truth is not a full lie, just frustrating when it's "mate", the other hal=
f truth is not yet known to the student . . . . giving the full truth, the =
full cycle, (that part of the statement that involves us and gets our atten=
tion and that part that leads us to liberation.)
------------------------------------
=20=20=20
When Bailey f.e. writes:
"The Law of Attraction... deals with the ability of the Logos to 'love wi=
sely' in the occult sense of the term. It has relation to the polarization =
of the Logos in His astral body, and produces the phenomenon called 'sex ac=
tivity' (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, p. 721).



Respondant: Here she is writing in the standard symbolic language about =
either a planetary logos(a previous humanity which has become cooperative a=
nd group-conscious through love) or a solar logos(seven major planetary log=
oi who have joined their group consciousnesses synthetically in service to =
the will of a solar logos).

If she is referring to the latter, a solar logos, probably our solar logo=
s, then she is referring to the macrocosmic being who is developing love-wi=
sdom on top of the previously developed Intellectual Activity. This macroc=
osmic being functions as a cosmic personality on the cosmic mental, cosmic=
astral and cosmic etheric physical planes(states of consciousness) and has=
already developed an intelligently active etheric body in a previous solar=
system and is now developing a loving and wise astral body in this solar s=
ystem. The first solar system is referred to as feminine(using the term as=
occultly understood) and this present solar system is referred to as mascu=
line, again only in the esoteric sense and context. So He is the god of lo=
ve or the heart chakra of an even greater cosmic being of which he is a par=
t, one major chakra of seven major chakras. Sex and love are used synonomo=
usly with the term sex meaning physical love or physical attraction(cosmic =
or microcosmic) and refers to the cosmic electric attraction between the wi=
ll and the substance aspects as He gathers towards Him that which He needs =
in order to serve the greater whole just as we all try to do. This is all =
symbolic, not to be taken literally.

Together, we as a humanity, are the microsmic equivalent to our solar log=
os(the holographic cosomolgy paradigm) and form a personality on the mental=
, astral and etheric physical planes(states of consciousness) and are indee=
d made in the same image but are like atoms relative to the immense body of=
the solar logos. The solar logos is also like an atom to the body of the =
immense being to which it too forms a tiny part, and onward and onward towa=
rds immensity and backward and backward toward tiny-insity. The pattern re=
peats over and over. Each form, each personality is one of many which toge=
ther form a chakra, one of seven major chakras, within the personality of a=
great being and that great being is one of many forming a still greater ch=
akra. And each one of us is a great being to the tiny atoms of our body an=
d each atom is a great being to it's tiniest parts. The pattern repeats to=
infinity in either direction. Of all the numbers within the infinite cont=
inous sea of numbers, which is the greater?

So Alice is writing, as dicated to, to seems to me, symbolically, in orde=
r to teach. As above, so below. We get some information as if it is about=
our psychology. We get some information as if is about some doings of the=
great and powerful solar logos, the god of love, as referred to in the scr=
iptures, this is all teaching technique meant to start the student thinking=
and self educating. It may seem, at first, like madness, but there seems =
to me to be method to it. This is all pantheism both subjective and objecti=
ve. It is not meant to be understood in the exoteric sense as some "god" o=
utside of the ongoing creative process looking onward as his creation goes =
stumbling forward or backword. It is the expert employment of standard and=
proved teaching techniques to get one thinking for one's self, and it work=
s for some and doesn't work for others. It is especially to be remembered =
that there is no god. There are only gods. Any mention of god is the ment=
ion of some major chakra in some being whether cosmic, microcosmic, etc. I=
f any of these major chakras within some grand and cosmic being, itself an =
individual within some grand cosmic humanity forming a yet greater chakra, =
are worshipped and singled out then one has a potentially disruptive idolat=
ry brewing. The monthesim of Egypt was not the worship of the one God. It=
was the worship of the one favorite God of that city or nation with other =
cities or nations worshipping other of the seven gods. Some worshipped the=
God of Intelligent Activity; some the God of Love; some the God of Will; a=
nd all the permutations thereof. There is the Hidden Deity which is no "Go=
d" but a deep and hidden mystery, the synthesis of all the seven gods like =
the white light of all the colors when synthesized back together and that H=
idden Deity is not subject to worship. It is this hidden deity that Alice =
is NOT referring to. She is referring to a chakra, one of seven, whether o=
r not it is one of ours, the solar logos' or the great Parabramam, Itself, =
once again, a major chakra within a still greater being. The scholar must =
integrate all this material and all these infinite states of consciousness =
into the One Total Unconditioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity and th=
ereby achieve enlightenment and this is for each one of us to do whether it=
is the tiny lord of an atom in our body, a human being, the solar logos, t=
he cosmic logos or the Great and Grand Poo-paa of ALL TIME and ALL SPACE. =
We are all in this nirvanva/samsara TOGETHER.=20=20=20=20




My humble questions to you:
1. Does this quote show that AAB believed in a personel God or not?

Opinion only, answer: It definitely does not unless one understands Teil=
hard De Chardin's perspective which is a modern pantheism that insists on a=
personal god. But this is a pantheistic personal god. This is the great =
consciousness of our perfected humanity at the level of the Masters, our At=
mic Plane, The Christ. This is the perfected expression of our planetary lo=
gos which is a now group conscious previous humanity and our goal in life. =
Pantheism, pantheism, pantheism.=20=20




2. If not, why she refers to the Logos as a he, even with a capital H?


She refers to our Solar Logos who is has already developed Intelligent Ac=
tivity and is evolving, on His own planes, and expressing Love-Wisdom throu=
gh Intelligent Activity. Our God is a god of Love. In esoteric philosophy =
the present solar system is a love-wisdom system and is termed Masculine a=
s opposed to Intelligent Activity through Substance(the Deva Kingdom) which=
is referred to as feminine and this Intelligent Activity is the "Holy Ghos=
t aspect" and the Substance the the Divine Virgin Matter. The feminine or =
deva kingdom has been subjected to the creative Intelligent Activity of the=
first solar system, the Cosmic Personality has been formed. Now, presentl=
y, in this new solar system the personality is to be subservient to the exp=
ression of Cosmic Love-Wisdom.
(Kiss me Kate!) The Cosmic Soul is pouring through the Cosmic Personalit=
y. There is resistence and hence Light from the previous pattern of Intell=
igent Activity but Love-Wisdom will prevail.



3. Many balck magicians are seeking to gain "powers" by practise sex magi=
c, like O.T.O., Crowley, Leadbeater. Is the argument of Bailey that=20
the Logos is connected with sex activity the "occult" rationale for the s=
ahdow Brothers?



Answer: (I am surprised that Leadbeater is considered a black magician. =
I thought he was a good human being with some "bad" taboo-ed habits beggin=
g for enlightenment.) Sexual activity in the context that you present like=
all activity is an Intelligent Activity and serves a purpose in Nature. T=
here are two choices with all Intelligent Activity. To use the Intelligent=
Activity for personal selfish gain, at times appropriate, or, rather to us=
e the Intelligent Activity from Transpersonal perspectives, altruistically.=
Sex used for the benefit of the world would be white magic; sex used for =
selfish purposes would be black magic. Once again it all boils down to mot=
ive, whether altuistic or inappropriately selfish and at the expense of oth=
er beings. Now. I can't judge the motives of Leadbeater. I can't judge t=
he motives of even myself with any complete certainty so I ain't gonna atte=
mpt to judge the motives of the Solar Logos. I can see no reason to get co=
ncerned that the Solar Logos, the so-called god of love, is kinky and into =
sex magic, that would be for His Peers to deal with, the other Solar Logoi.=
Each one of us, microcosmic or macrocosmic, is subject to the centripetal=
and centrifugal forces of Life(Father-Mother), harmonized at the Buddhic p=
lane, whether microcosmic or macrocosmic. The choice is ours and I suppose=
the choice is up to Him. I'll do the best with my own choices and if He w=
ants my advice then He can ask me. I'm not holding my breath until that ti=
me.

Frank, dear Intelligent and loving Frank. Stay on guard. Stay sceptical=
. And let your light and wisdom and light shine through the dark night of o=
ur ignorance. None of us will learn anything worth knowing unless we quest=
ion everything. Then at a certain time one can relax and truely understand=
. It is all love and each one of us is that love. The intellect and the s=
cientists will lag behind the intuition but the sure way is the better way.=
If I haven't explained things sufficiently then this is due to my own co=
nfusion and inability. I continue to try to understand and share as best I=
can and I have that evil shadow within and of which I must remain aware of=
and restate to it: Love, baby, love is the answer. (So transcendent as t=
o be an answer barely acceptable.) But the Beatles sang this to the world =
so it must be true! You may have all the evidence you need to disregard me=
as trying to learn but too confused to be of much interest. This is o.k. =
This may be true. But if interested please ask very pointed and sharp que=
stions and I'll do my best.(Gene)


Thanks.
Frank

Frank,

It seems that the idea of a personal god is o.k. and not in conflict wi=
th HPB as long as there is a mature theological understanding, pantheistic,=
of a personal god, such as taught in the writings of Teilhard De Chardin. =
All conflicts of this nature are resolvable in understanding the perspecti=
ve of the other.

Gene

eGroups Sponsor=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20


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Frank, please see below.  I will ment=
ion my=20
understanding of what she is writing.  My understanding grows as I con=
tinue=20
to study.



----- Original Message ----- 

Fro=
m:=20
Frank=20
Reitemeyer 



Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:3=
7=20
AM


Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Doctr=
ine of=20
Avataras and The Christ





Gene, may be. HPB called that Jes=
uitism.=20
For me a half truth is a full lie.


 


 


Respondant: Generally:  Ther=
e is=20
a Hermetic statement that all "truth" is but half-truth and the equa=
l and=20
opposite is also "truth"(half-truth).  Specifically:  Her state=
ments=20
do not appear to be half-truths in the way you seem to mean.&nb=
sp;=20
And if they were, for the sake of argument,  certainly a half truth =
is=20
not a full lie, just frustrating when it's "mate", the other half tr=
uth=20
is not yet known to the student . . . . giving the full truth, the full c=
ycle,=20
(that part of the statement that involves us and gets our attention and t=
hat=20
part that leads us to liberation.)


------------------------------------


 


When Bailey f.e. writes:

"The Law of Attraction... deals w=
ith the=20
ability of the Logos to 'love wisely' in the occult sense of the term. It=
has=20
relation to the polarization of the Logos in His astral body, and produce=
s the=20
phenomenon called 'sex activity' (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, p.=20
721).


 


 


 


Respondant:  Here she is wri=
ting in=20
the standard symbolic language about either a planetary logos(a previous=
=20
humanity which has become cooperative and group-conscious through love) o=
r a=20
solar logos(seven major planetary logoi who have joined their group=20
consciousnesses synthetically in service to the will of a solar=20
logos).


 


If she is referring to the latter=
, a solar=20
logos, probably our solar logos, then she is referring to the macroc=
osmic=20
being who is developing love-wisdom on top of the previously developed=20
Intellectual Activity.  This macrocosmic being functions as a cosmic=
=20
personality on the cosmic mental,  cosmic astral and cosmic eth=
eric=20
physical planes(states of consciousness) and has already developed an=20
intelligently active etheric body in a previous solar system and is now=20
developing a loving and wise astral body in this solar system.  The =
first=20
solar system is referred to as feminine(using the term as occultly unders=
tood)=20
and this present solar system is referred to as masculine, again onl=
y in=20
the esoteric sense and context.  So He is the god of love or the hea=
rt=20
chakra of an even greater cosmic being of which he is a part, one major c=
hakra=20
of seven major chakras.  Sex and love are used synonomously with the=
term=20
sex meaning physical love or physical attraction(cosmic or=20
microcosmic) and refers to the cosmic electric attraction between th=
e=20
will and the substance aspects as He gathers towards Him that which He ne=
eds=20
in order to serve the greater whole just as we all try to do.  =
This=20
is all symbolic, not to be taken literally.


 


Together, we as a humanity, are t=
he=20
microsmic equivalent to our solar logos(the holographic cosomolgy=20
paradigm) and form a personality on the mental, astral and etheric=20
physical planes(states of consciousness) and are indeed made in the same =
image=20
but are like atoms relative to the immense body of the solar logos.&=
nbsp;=20
The solar logos is also like an atom to the body of the immense being to =
which=20
it too forms a tiny part, and onward and onward towards immensity and bac=
kward=20
and backward toward tiny-insity.  The pattern repeats over and=20
over.  Each form, each personality is one of many which together for=
m a=20
chakra, one of seven major chakras, within the personality of a great bei=
ng=20
and that great being is one of many forming a still greater chakra. =
And=20
each one of us is a great being to the tiny atoms of our body and each at=
om is=20
a great being to it's tiniest parts.  The pattern repeats to infinit=
y in=20
either direction.  Of all the numbers within the infinite continous =
sea=20
of numbers, which is the greater?


 


So Alice is writing, as dicated t=
o, to=20
seems to me, symbolically, in order to teach.  As above, so below.&n=
bsp;=20
We get some information as if it is about our psychology.  We get so=
me=20
information as if is about some doings of the great and powerful solar lo=
gos,=20
the god of love, as referred to in the scriptures, this is all teaching=20
technique meant to start the student thinking and self educating.  I=
t may=20
seem, at first, like madness, but there seems to me to be method to it. T=
his=20
is all pantheism both subjective and objective.  It is not meant to =
be=20
understood in the exoteric sense as some "god" outside of the ongoing cre=
ative=20
process looking onward as his creation goes stumbling forward or=20
backword.  It is the expert employment of standard and proved teachi=
ng=20
techniques to get one thinking for one's self, and it works for some and=
=20
doesn't work for others.  It is especially to be remembered that the=
re is=20
no god.  There are only gods.  Any mention of god is the mentio=
n of=20
some major chakra in some being whether cosmic, microcosmic, etc.  I=
f any=20
of these major chakras within some grand and cosmic being, itself an=20
individual within some grand cosmic humanity forming a yet greater chakra=
, are=20
worshipped and singled out then one has a potentially disruptive idolatry=
=20
brewing.  The monthesim of Egypt was not the worship of the one=20
God.  It was the worship of the one favorite God of that city or nat=
ion=20
with other cities or nations worshipping other of the seven gods.  S=
ome=20
worshipped the God of Intelligent Activity; some the God of Love; some th=
e God=20
of Will; and all the permutations thereof.  There is the Hidden Deit=
y=20
which is no "God" but a deep and hidden mystery, the synthesis of all the=
=20
seven gods like the white light of all the colors when synthesized back=20
together and that Hidden Deity is not subject to worship.  It is thi=
s=20
hidden deity that Alice is NOT referring to.  She is referring to a=
=20
chakra, one of seven, whether or not it is one of ours, the solar logos' =
or=20
the great Parabramam, Itself, once again, a major chakra within a still=20
greater being.  The scholar must integrate all this material and all=
=20
these infinite states of consciousness into the One Total Unconditioned=20
Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity and thereby achieve enlightenment and=
this=20
is for each one of us to do whether it is the tiny lord of an a=
tom=20
in our body, a human being, the solar logos, the cosmic logos or the Grea=
t and=20
Grand Poo-paa of ALL TIME and ALL SPACE.  We are all in this=20
nirvanva/samsara TOGETHER.    


 


 


 


 


My humble questions to you:


1. Does this quote show that AAB =
believed=20
in a personel God or not?


 


Opinion only, answer:  It de=
finitely=20
does not unless one understands Teilhard De Chardin's perspective which i=
s a=20
modern pantheism that insists on a personal god.  But this is a=20
pantheistic personal god.  This is the great consciousness of our=20
perfected humanity at the level of the Masters, our Atmic Plane, The Chri=
st.=20
This is the perfected expression of our planetary logos which is a now gr=
oup=20
conscious previous humanity and our goal in life.  Pantheism, panthe=
ism,=20
pantheism.  


 


 


 


 


2. If not, why she refers to the =
Logos as=20
a he, even with a capital H?


 


 


She refers to our Solar Logos who=
is has=20
already developed Intelligent Activity and is evolving, on His own planes=
, and=20
expressing Love-Wisdom through Intelligent Activity. Our God is a god of=
=20
Love.  In esoteric philosophy the present solar system is a love-wis=
dom=20
system and is termed Masculine  as opposed to Intelligent Activity=20
through Substance(the Deva Kingdom) which is referred to as feminine and =
this=20
Intelligent Activity is the "Holy Ghost aspect" and the Substance the the=
=20
Divine Virgin Matter.  The feminine or deva kingdom has been subject=
ed to=20
the creative Intelligent Activity of the first solar system, the Cosmic=20
Personality has been formed.  Now, presently, in this new solar syst=
em=20
the personality is to be subservient to the expression of Cosmic=20
Love-Wisdom.


(Kiss me Kate!)  The Cosmic =
Soul is=20
pouring through the Cosmic Personality.  There is resistence and hen=
ce=20
Light from the previous pattern of Intelligent Activity but Love-Wisdom w=
ill=20
prevail.


 


 


 


3. Many balck magicians are seeki=
ng to=20
gain "powers" by practise sex magic, like O.T.O., Crowley, Leadbeater. Is=
the=20
argument of Bailey that 


the Logos is connected with sex a=
ctivity=20
the "occult" rationale for the sahdow Brothers?


 


 


 


Answer:  (I am surprised tha=
t=20
Leadbeater is considered a black magician.  I thought he was a good =
human=20
being with some "bad" taboo-ed habits begging for enlightenment.)  S=
exual=20
activity in the context that you present like all activity is an Intellig=
ent=20
Activity and serves a purpose in Nature.  There are two choices with=
all=20
Intelligent Activity.  To use the Intelligent Activity for personal=
=20
selfish gain, at times appropriate, or, rather to use the Intelligent Act=
ivity=20
from Transpersonal perspectives, altruistically.  Sex used for the=20
benefit of the world would be white magic; sex used for selfish purposes =
would=20
be black magic.  Once again it all boils down to motive, whether=20
altuistic or inappropriately selfish and at the expense of other beings.&=
nbsp;=20
Now.  I can't judge the motives of Leadbeater.  I can't judge t=
he=20
motives of even myself with any complete certainty so I ain't gonna attem=
pt to=20
judge the motives of the Solar Logos.  I can see no reason to get=20
concerned that the Solar Logos, the so-called god of love, is kinky and i=
nto=20
sex magic, that would be for His Peers to deal with, the other Solar=20
Logoi.  Each one of us, microcosmic or macrocosmic, is subject to th=
e=20
centripetal and centrifugal forces of Life(Father-Mother), harmonized at =
the=20
Buddhic plane, whether microcosmic or macrocosmic.  The choice is ou=
rs=20
and I suppose the choice is up to Him.  I'll do the best with my own=
=20
choices and if He wants my advice then He can ask me.  I'm not holdi=
ng my=20
breath until that time.


 


Frank, dear Intelligent and lovin=
g=20
Frank.  Stay on guard.  Stay sceptical. And let your light and=
=20
wisdom and light shine through the dark night of our ignorance.  Non=
e of=20
us will learn anything worth knowing unless we question everything. =
Then=20
at a certain time one can relax and truely understand.  It is all lo=
ve=20
and each one of us is that love.  The intellect and the scientists w=
ill=20
lag behind the intuition but the sure way is the better way.   =
If I=20
haven't explained things sufficiently then this is due to my own confusio=
n and=20
inability.  I continue to try to understand and share as best I can =
and I=20
have that evil shadow within and of which I must remain aware of and=
=20
restate to it:  Love, baby, love is the answer.  (So transcende=
nt as=20
to be an answer barely acceptable.)  But the Beatles sang this to th=
e=20
world so it must be true!  You may have all the evidence you need to=
=20
disregard me as trying to learn but too confused to be of much interest.&=
nbsp;=20
This is o.k.  This may be true.  But if interested please ask v=
ery=20
pointed and sharp questions and I'll do my best.(Gene)


 


 


Thanks.


Frank


 




Frank,


 


It seems that the idea of a personal g=
od is=20
o.k. and not in conflict with HPB as long as there is a mature theologi=
cal=20
understanding, pantheistic, of a personal god, such as taught in the=20
writings of Teilhard De Chardin.  All conflicts of this nature are=
=20
resolvable in understanding the perspective of the other.


 


Gene



------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C03CD9.D5DF39C0--

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 23 11:00:05 2000
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To: 
References: <39EB88E1.5655B0E1@bmu.com.pe> <3.0.5.32.20001017003823.007eedd0@mail.telusplanet.net> <39EC5AA4.DB08D020@wisdomworld.org> <001f01c03913$dd61f440$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> <000401c0394d$c0dc4520$86de603e@FrankReitemeyer> <006c01c03c48$2a9a96e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> <011101c03cef$1ccb26e0$fade603e@FrankReitemeyer>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:02:04 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03CE0.B097C090
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Frank,

Thankyou. Each person can decide this on their own and after checking the =
opinions of others. I make no claims for Blavatsky or Bailey their work wi=
ll stand or fall from the content therein. I will say that I love them bot=
h and for different reasons and again HPB shows the reasonable academic com=
munity that Theosophy is a valid and most valuable subject of study. Baile=
y offers her work making no claims. Others might. Arguments might break o=
ut. No big deal. I'm happy to study both, harmonize any conflicts as best=
I can and proceed with Life. My advice to anyone who wants it is to start=
with Esoteric Buddhism and go to Blavatsky's books and procede no further =
unless compelled by one's heart of hearts that Alice may have something val=
uable to add. And better safe than sorry is a pretty good expression. It =
is best to be wary. And you are right, I have tried and it is very hard to=
do Blavatsky and Bailey too. I got into Bailey because of her book on eso=
teric healing. I am qualified if anyone is, at the academic level, to say =
this is one hell of a great book and leave it at that. I then read all of =
HPB's texts, several times, and have her collected writings because of my w=
ish to understand and apply the book Esoteric Healing to my chosen field of=
medicine and pathology. But, you know, I bet I only really understand abo=
ut 30% of HPB to a reasonable degree and about 60% of Bailey except for Cos=
mic Fire and Rays and the Initiations(about 5 to 10%) I'm happy. They both=
have given me a chance to start living a real life and I'm deeply grateful=
and probably unqualified to judge their qualifications. Color me grateful=
. And color me limited and struggling like all get out.

Gene

Gene


----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frank Reitemeyer=20
To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Info about HPB & Alice Bailey


Gene,
no good Theosophist will accept anything in metaphysics on authority only=
. That was HPBs way and it is consonant with a series of spritual teachers =
through the ages.
But by point was not that you waste your time by studying Bailey. It is y=
our time. My point was only that I have found out that the Bailey writings =
are not true Theosophy, but rather Theosophy misunderstood, if not faked. I=
only protest that Bailey is described as Theosophist or even as successor =
of HPB. You have all the right to study and to love Bailey. But if you take=
the right to call he a Theosophist, I too take the right to call her a Pse=
udo-Theosophist.
Many beginners in Theosophy have neither the time nor the energy to study=
15.000 Blavatsky pages and the Bailey stuff too and then come to own concl=
usions. You need not only time, silence but additional much discrimination =
power. My hints were for those people, not for those who can study and find=
out for themselves. I know of many people who have studied their whole lif=
e with all their will and heart power, 4 and five decades, but they cannot =
intellectually explain the difference between Bailey and Blavatskya lthough=
they feel it. For those are the comments. I don't force you to believe my =
comments.
Frank

Thankyou, Frank. The Chinese have a saying, "Put your worst foot forwa=
rd."
I think that people can look at all the bad things being said about Bai=
ley
and then avoid looking at the material, especially Cosmic Fire and Rays=
and
the Intitiations and save themselves alot of "wasted" time. It is wond=
erful
when one is intelligent enough to see, clearly, that a certain way is t=
he
wrong way and warn others. And it is important for others to heed thes=
e
warnings. I've spent 25 years studying Blavatsky and Bailey and I've
sacrificed the traditional medical career in order to do this. But. Y=
ou
know? It will be worth it when I discover, the hard way, that the Bail=
ey
Books are false and all these years of love of them and of studying wer=
e
wasted. Then I will have solidly learned, by my own choosen experience=
, of
which way not to go and can then come back to the true path no longer
tempted like those poor fools that still find in them(the 24 volumes of
A.A.B) a deeply attractive force in the world of sorrow and confusion.
There is the electric fire, the energy of the entire mental state of
consciousness. There is the solar fire, the energy of the mental body =
of
each of us, and then there is the fire by friction, the energy of the
relationship of electric fire and solar fire, wherein we learn the har=
d way
by many many lives of hard own experience. One day we will all wise up=
.
"Those who know do least."

Love,
Gene


eGroups Sponsor=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20


------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03CE0.B097C090
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Frank,


 


Thankyou.  Each person can decide thi=
s on=20
their own and after checking the opinions of others.  I make no claims=
for=20
Blavatsky or Bailey their work will stand or fall from the content=20
therein.  I will say that I love them both and for different reasons a=
nd=20
again HPB shows the reasonable academic community that Theosophy is a valid=
and=20
most valuable subject of study.  Bailey offers her work making no=20
claims.  Others might.  Arguments might break out.  No big=20
deal.  I'm happy to study both, harmonize any conflicts as best I can =
and=20
proceed with Life.  My advice to anyone who wants it is to start with=
=20
Esoteric Buddhism and go to Blavatsky's books and procede no further unless=
=20
compelled by one's heart of hearts that Alice may have something valuable t=
o=20
add.  And better safe than sorry is a pretty good expression.  It=
is=20
best to be wary.  And you are right, I have tried and it is very hard =
to do=20
Blavatsky and Bailey too.  I got into Bailey because of her book=20
on esoteric healing.  I am qualified if anyone is, at the academi=
c=20
level, to say this is one hell of a great book and leave it at that.&n=
bsp;=20
I then read all of HPB's texts, several times, and have her collected=
=20
writings because of my wish to understand and apply the book Esoteric Heali=
ng to=20
my chosen field of medicine and pathology.  But, you know, I bet I onl=
y=20
really understand about 30% of HPB to a reasonable degree and about 60% of=
=20
Bailey except for Cosmic Fire and Rays and the Initiations(about 5 to 10%) =
I'm=20
happy.  They both have given me a chance to start living a real life a=
nd=20
I'm deeply grateful and probably unqualified to judge their=20
qualifications.  Color me grateful.  And color me limited and=20
struggling like all get out.


 


Gene


 


Gene


 


 



----- Original Message ----- 

Fro=
m:=20
Frank=20
Reitemeyer 



Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 4:5=
7=20
AM


Subject: Re: Theos-World Info abou=
t HPB=20
& Alice Bailey





Gene,


no good Theosophist will accept anything=
in=20
metaphysics on authority only. That was HPBs way and it is consonant with=
a=20
series of spritual teachers through the ages.


But by point was not that you waste your=
time by=20
studying Bailey. It is your time. My point was only that I have found out=
that=20
the Bailey writings are not true Theosophy, but rather Theosophy=20
misunderstood, if not faked. I only protest that Bailey is described as=20
Theosophist or even as successor of HPB. You have all the right to study =
and=20
to love Bailey. But if you take the right to call he a Theosophist, I too=
take=20
the right to call her a Pseudo-Theosophist.


Many beginners in Theosophy have neither=
the time=20
nor the energy to study 15.000 Blavatsky pages and the Bailey stuff too a=
nd=20
then come to own conclusions. You need not only time, silence but additio=
nal=20
much discrimination power. My hints were for those people, not for those =
who=20
can study and find out for themselves. I know of many people who have stu=
died=20
their whole life with all their will and heart power, 4 and five decades,=
but=20
they cannot intellectually explain the difference between Bailey and=20
Blavatskya lthough they feel it. For those are the comments. I don't forc=
e you=20
to believe my comments.


Frank

Thankyou,=20
Frank.  The Chinese have a saying, "Put your worst foot forward."<=
BR>I=20
think that people can look at all the bad things being said about=20
Bailey
and then avoid looking at the material, especially Cosmic Fir=
e and=20
Rays and
the Intitiations and save themselves alot of "wasted"=20
time.  It is wonderful
when one is intelligent enough to see,=20
clearly, that a certain way is the
wrong way and warn others.  =
And=20
it is important for others to heed these
warnings.  I've spent =
25=20
years studying Blavatsky and Bailey and I've
sacrificed the traditio=
nal=20
medical career in order to do this.  But.  You
know? =
It=20
will be worth it when I discover, the hard way, that the Bailey
Book=
s are=20
false and all these years of love of them and of studying=20
were
wasted.  Then I will have solidly learned, by my own choos=
en=20
experience, of
which way not to go and can then come back to the tru=
e=20
path no longer
tempted like those poor fools that still find in them=
(the=20
24 volumes of
A.A.B) a deeply attractive force in the world of sorro=
w and=20
confusion.
There is the electric fire, the energy of the entire ment=
al=20
state of
consciousness.  There is the solar fire, the energy of=
the=20
mental body of
each of us, and then there is the fire by friction, t=
he=20
energy of the
relationship  of electric fire and solar fire, wh=
erein=20
we learn the hard way
by many many lives of hard own experience.&nbs=
p;=20
One day we will all wise up.
"Those who know do=20
least."

Love,
Gene



------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C03CE0.B097C090--

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 23 11:16:09 2000
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To: 
References: <8t07pp+n4en@eGroups.com> <000401c03ca2$e3bda900$1129480c@pavilion>
Subject: Re: Theos-World More of What Gautama said to Kalamas
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:18:38 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Perhaps this part of the text was inserted by "wise authorities" and was
never ever said by the Buddha. This is what happened with the Gospel
according to . . .

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Weeks" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World More of What Gautama said to Kalamas


> The passage Art uses is often so misquoted. Actually the Kalama Sutta is
not
> quite as anti-authority as many would like. But if one ignores a few
lines
> here and there it can appear that way.
>
> First, the Kalamas approach Buddha for advice. If He really intended to
> foster their total self-reliance He would have sent them away with "Don't
ask
> me, go within yourselves." But He did not do so.
> ***********
>
> 4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty
has
> arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what
has
> been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor
> upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon
> specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been
pondered
> over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The
> monk is our teacher.' "
>
> At this point comes the blurring of the teaching. Actually Buddha
suggested
> three criteria for rejecting (or accepting) a teaching.
>
> "Kalamas, when you yourselves know:
>
> 1) 'These things are bad; these things are blamable;
>
> 2) these things are censured by the wise;
>
> 3) undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon
> them."
>
> Numbers 1 says when you know for yourself that something is bad -- drop
it.
> Number 3 says when you know for yourself that something will eventually
lead
> to badness -- drop it. However, number 2 says take into account what wise
> authorities say. Can this be? Pay attention to someone other than ME?
> Evidently Buddha thought total self-reliance was not a good idea.
>
> Later on the sutta gives the 3 criteria that should be applied to
accepting
> a teaching. He repeats the same threefold advice, including paying
attention
> to whether wise authorities praise something. If they do, then follow
their
> example.
>
> One can study a couple of translations and a commentary by Bhikku Bodhi at
> the Access to Insight webpage.
>
> Considering the volumes of Buddhist works praising spiritual authorities
and
> requiring their guidance for the aspirant, it is ridiculous to keep
harping
> on this one out-of-context misquote as an authority (what an irony, eh?)
for
> ignoring all but ones own views.
>
> Fare Thee Well,
>
> Nicholas <> nick.weeks@.att.net <> Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From nous@btinternet.com Mon Oct 23 13:22:47 2000
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To: 
Subject: Conflicting views allegedly from the same source.
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:17:36 +0100
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Importance: Normal
From: "Peter Merriott" 


Yes, it is good to be tolerant towards the views of others. It is also good
to discriminate.
Below is a passage from E.L. Gardners little pamphlet, "There is no Religion
Higher than Truth" (T.P.H. 1963). It highlights some of the problems
concerned with conflicting teachings meant to be from the same source and
the genuine need to be aware of them and reflect deeply upon the
implications. The booklet itself is a very thoughtful treatise by someone
who showed no interest in 'bashing' others in his writings.

kind regards

... Peter


Extract from "There is no Religion Higher than Truth"

A number of letters sent by C.W. Leadbeater, then living in Sydney, to
Annie Besant, President of The Theosophical Society, at Adyar, between 1916
and 1920 are concerned with the 'Lord Maitreya' and the Liberal Catholic
Church, which was then being founded... The claim of the Liberal Catholic
Church for support from Fellows of the Theosophical Society was based on the
belief, expressed in this correspondence, that the World Teacher, the Lord
Maitreya, had 'brought it into being' and 'approved' its liturgy. Mrs
Besant accepted the information in good faith and announced the founding. A
letter dated April 7 1920 contains the following:

"He (the Lord Maitreya) told us to ask questions from the Master K.H. upon
points as to which we
were uncertain and the information which we gained in this way was of the
very greatest value to us."

The questions put by Bishop Leadbeater to the Master K.H. and said to have
been answered by him, run to several thousand words. They relate to the
celebration of Mass, the effect of consecration and of priesthood, and to
numerous details of ecclesiastical procedure. The answers to these and many
questions all support and endorse the clerical views of Bishop Leadbeater
himself.

EVIDENTLY THE 'LORD MAITREYA' KNEW NOTHING OF THE MASTER K.H'S STRONG VIEWS
ON RELIGION AND SACERDOTALISM. "The Mahatma Letters to A.P.Sinnett" had not
at the time been published. [caps added]

Letter No. 10 signed by the Master K.H. states:

"The chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity...
is religion under whatever form and in whatever nation. It is the sacerdotal
the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions that man looks
upon as sacred that he has to search out the source of that multitude of
evils which is the great curse of humanity.... The sum of human misery will
never be diminished unto that day when the better portion of humanity
destroys in the name of Truth, morality and
universal charity the altars of their false gods."

And in Letter No. 134, the Master M. speaks of:

"...invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith
in the Gods and God and other superstitions attract millions of foreign
influences, living entities and powerful agents ... who delight in
personifying gods ... These are the gods that Hindus and Christians and all
others
of bigoted religions and sects worship."

These extracts from letters written by the Masters K.H. and M. furnish
convincing evidence of 'unconscious Kriyashakti' projections by Bishop
Leadbeater.

E. L. Gardner, 1963

(from pages 6 to 8 in ELG's booklet "There is no Religion Higher than
Truth")
===========================================

Peter comments: The above contains some serious conflicting evidence for the
student to consider. On the one hand we have what Leadbeater says 'The
Lord Maitreya' and 'the Master KH' told him. On the other hand we have the
earlier records of what the Master KH wrote and signed himself. The claims
of Bishop Leadbeater are completely at odds with the earlier statements on
God and the priesthood written by both Mahatmas. However, the earlier
statements by the Mahatmas *are* consistent with what we find written in The
Secret Doctrine, ISIS, The Key to Theosophy & so on. They are also
consistent with what other Chelas of the Mahatmas wrote at the time eg Subba
Row, Damodar, Bhavani Shankar. They are also consistent with the two
philosophies drawn upon by the Occult Brotherhood to give out some of the
fundamental tenets of Theosophy to the world at large ie Buddhism and
Advaitee Vedanta - these being considered the closest to the Ancient Wisdom.

For another example, compare the above extracts (especially Leadbeater's
sincere belief that the Master KH was helping him set up the Liberal
Catholic Church) with the following passage, written some years earlier by
the Mahatma KH to A.P.Sinnett:

"The God of the Theologians is simply an imaginary power... Our chief aim is
to deliver humanity of this nightmare, to teach man virtue for its own sake,
and to walk in life relying on himself instead
of leaning on a theological crutch that for countless ages was the direct
cause of nearly all human misery... The best Adepts have searched the
Universe during millenniums and found nowhere the slightest trace of [God],
but throughout, the same immutable, inexorable law."
(The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett 2nd. ed., TUP, 53, 142- 43)


PM.






From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 23 18:19:40 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Theosophy should be for free inquiry and views:
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--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Nick Weeks"  
wrote:
> Art:
> > Leadbeater in his book on the afterlife comments that we 
build towers
> > that separate us from reality and there are windows through 
which the
> > light of truth can be filtered. As the astral and thought bodies 
are
> > dissolved we are in essence our subtle etheric monadic 
form withou
> > tower or windows. You can see an anology here i think to 
those who
> > build a tower of theosophic thought forms around 
themselves and will
> > only allow a few rays of truth to brighten their cells... this is 
what
> > I would warn against.
> 
> Accepting for argument's sake that CWL knew what he was 
talking about, could
> not his "towers" of thought forms also be built of Weeks-ic 
thought forms or
> Gregory-ic thought forms? Ignoring external authority by 
replacing with it
> with our personal authority seems profitless.
> 
> Fare Thee Well,
> 
> Nicholas Weeks

RESPONSE:

Thanks Nicholas!

Yes I agree.

My concern was stated earlier and I hope it was clearly stated 
that Theosophy should be for open inquery and not a kind of 
orthodoxy that suppresses argument or other views. 

Sincerely,

Arthur Gregory


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From ramadoss@eden.com Mon Oct 23 21:08:51 2000
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:04:22 -0500
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Conflicting views allegedly from the same source.
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From: ramadoss@eden.com

When EL Gardner's pamphlet was published, it did indeed make many serious
students of theosophy inquire into the issues raised in it. Soon a pamphlet
was published defending CWL by some of those who implicitly believed in his
infallibility in regard to the LCC. (I have a copy somewhere and when I
find it I will list the title and signatories).

There are some interesting questions with regard to the LCC issue.
Krishnaji who was to prepared for the World Teacher Role never knew
anything about these details; nor, as far as I know, was ordained as a
minister, bishop or pope in LCC. There is also the fact that while Lord
Maitreya when he came to India as Shri Krishna, did not have have the
apostles as happened when He came as Lord Christ. Why would this style be
repeated as propounded by CWL. Did CWL's prior training in Anglican Church
color his perceptions? BTW, LCC was never popular within the TS(Adyar)
among native Indian members. Those mostly attracted were westerners who
grew up in traditional Christian Church Enviornment.


mkr

At 09:17 PM 10/23/2000 +0100, Peter Merriott wrote:
>
>Yes, it is good to be tolerant towards the views of others. It is also good
>to discriminate.
>Below is a passage from E.L. Gardners little pamphlet, "There is no Religion
>Higher than Truth" (T.P.H. 1963). It highlights some of the problems
>concerned with conflicting teachings meant to be from the same source and
>the genuine need to be aware of them and reflect deeply upon the
>implications. The booklet itself is a very thoughtful treatise by someone
>who showed no interest in 'bashing' others in his writings.


From alpha@dircon.co.uk Tue Oct 24 03:07:58 2000
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To: 
Subject: RE: Theos-World Regarding the Kalamass quotation:
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:08:59 +0100
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From: "Tony" 

Art writes:
<<>>

Presumably you quote Bhakta-Parijna: 91, because you agree with it, and also
you know that it is in no way authoritive?

Is it the case that there is not anything more expansive than the sky? What
about the inner Kosmos or Mahat? Is there anywhere that spirit isn't?
Something may have even got lost or changed in the translation?

And can we be certain that there is no Dharma equal to Ahimsa
(non-violence?)...in this world? What about compassion - suffering - for
example?

Tony


From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 24 05:00:45 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Jaina Dharma and Anekantavada:
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Tony"  wrote:
> Art writes:
> << from Blavatsky or Bailey or etc. You can see the danger in this 
by the
> references ro authority.
> - Arthur Gregory
> =====
> "Nothing is higher than Mount Meru nor anything more 
expansive than the sky.
> Similarly know that no Dharma is equal to Ahimsa in this 
world."
> 
> - Bhakta-Parijna: 91>>>
> 
> Presumably you quote Bhakta-Parijna: 91, because you agree 
with it, and also
> you know that it is in no way authoritive?
> 
> Is it the case that there is not anything more expansive than the 
sky? What
> about the inner Kosmos or Mahat? Is there anywhere that 
spirit isn't?
> Something may have even got lost or changed in the 
translation?
> 
> And can we be certain that there is no Dharma equal to 
Ahimsa
> (non-violence?)...in this world? What about compassion - 
suffering - for
> example?
> 
> Tony

Thanks for your remarks Tony!

I use the message regading Ahimsa as a signature , so sorry 
you confused it with the text of my message.

The particular passage is from the Jain tradition.

Jainism is probably the most ancient and consistently Ahimsa 
oriented movement around. I am in sympathy with it and 
co-moderate a Jainlist egroup that has been around a few years.

Whenever jain monastics travel through our area I ask them to 
instruct my Yoga classes in Jaina Yoga known as Preksha 
Meditation.

The Jains have a long tradition of discussion with other religions 
in India and they developed a concept that may be useful to us 
called ANEKANTAVADA which explains the relativity of human 
thought and that various views should be permitted, this is 
incidentally at the core ofmy recommendation to theosophists, 
that we allow for freedom of thought and personal study instead 
of requiring a kind of orthodoxy of thought and opinion.

Some may wonder about an interest in Jainism, but to me it has 
been a most fascinating study and I have had the satisfaction of 
personally meeting some very fine exemplars of Jaina Dharma.

- Arthur Gregory


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999



From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 24 05:10:16 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: More on Anekanta culture:
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>From his book "Jaina Perspective in Philosophy and Religion"
Dr. Ramjee Singh wrote:

"Dr. S. Radhakrishnan... speaking on the future of civilization 
held that to avert periodic crisis of civilization, what is required
is 
religious idealism and "cooperation. not identification, 
accomodation to fellowmen. toleation not absolutism." Thus if 
we want to save civilization from atomic annihilation we have to 
encourage Anekanta culture. ... (later he writes:)

Anakanta stands against allmental absolutism."


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From KArc@compuserve.com Tue Oct 24 09:00:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:57:30 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Jaina Dharma and Anekantavada:
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear Art Gregory -- I love the Rhadakrishnan quote: "COOPERATION, not
IDENTIFICATION". All that we identify with, we "eat" and then in digesting
it, we "spew" it back as gospel. It is a very tricky high wire act so as
not to fall into the holes between the net -- this study of philosophy
which changes one internally and does not then become the next One True
Faith. Most of us have deep psychology to wrestle with before we are clear
enough to study without prejudice. If we are to learn anything from an
Eastern or Trans-Himalayan philosophical systemization of "As Above, So
Below"....it is to learn what perhaps Tibetan Buddhists might say, "the
proper study of mankind is Man"...not G*d. Because we know nothing of G*d.
=20

I really value this e-group because of the clear-mindedness that keeps
coming forward. Thank you all, Kat in Italy

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Oct 24 09:42:56 2000
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To: "Esoteric Science" , 
Cc: , , , "Kim Poulsen" , , "Jack Rauhala" , "Rudy Rucker" 
Subject: Our picture of reality.
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:37:07 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C03D9D.F97C8120
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Let us not get confused concerning Reality and our picture of Reality. We =
are all working together as artists and scientists to atune to the creative=
will of perfected humanity to discover the group-conscious picture of real=
ity. As the picture increasingly dawns on each one of us we are brought in=
to a happy and adventurous conflict: our personal picture vs the group-cons=
ciousness picture.

Zero as been symbolized throughout the many years sometimes as a point and=
sometimes as a circle(or chakra). With the help of the mathematicians, ar=
tists and scientists we have learned that we can not picture a mathematical=
point with any certainty. We can tighten the circle of certainty towards =
the central point evermore but have learned that there is a limit due to ou=
r "uncertainty". This leaves us with an unimaginable point within the limi=
ts of our imagination. The circumference is the presence of the limit. Th=
e area of the circle is the unknowable. This is the end of our picture of =
zero . . . .and the beginning of our picture of Reality. The unknowable d=
raws us forward like moths to a Flame.

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C03D9D.F97C8120
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Let us not get confused concerning Reality=
and our=20
picture of Reality.  We are all working together as artists and scient=
ists=20
to atune to the creative will of perfected humanity to discover the=20
group-conscious picture of reality.  As the picture increasingly dawns=
on=20
each one of us we are brought into a happy and adventurous conflict: our=20
personal picture vs the group-consciousness picture.


 


Zero as been symbolized throughout the man=
y=20
years  sometimes as a point and sometimes as a circle(or=20
chakra).  With the help of the mathematicians, artists and scientists =
we=20
have learned that we can not picture a mathematical point with any=20
certainty.  We can tighten the circle of certainty towards the ce=
ntral=20
point evermore but have learned that there is a limit due to our=20
"uncertainty".  This leaves us with an unimaginable point within =
the=20
limits of our imagination.  The circumference is the presence of the=20
limit.  The area of the circle is the unknowable.  This is the en=
d of=20
our picture of zero . . . .and the beginning of our picture of=20
Reality.   The unknowable draws us forward like moths to a=20
Flame.


------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C03D9D.F97C8120--

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Oct 24 11:34:26 2000
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To: "Esoteric Science" , 
Subject: Fw: Articles on zero
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:10:21 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

For those zero-freaks like myself. Here are two reviews of those books
about zero.

Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: Articles on zero


> Dear Dr. Carpenter:
>
> The September issue of SIAM News was recently posted on the Web at
> http://www.siam.org/siamnews/current/current.htm
>
> There you can find What's So Special About Zero? (a PDF file) and
> Embedding Zero in Exposition (an htm file). I hope this helps you. I
> can also send you a print copy of the issue if you'd like, or printed
> versions of the PDF amd htm files.
>
> Thanks for your interest in SIAM News.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carol Mehne
> SIAM News associate editor
>
>
>


From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Oct 24 23:58:58 2000
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Thanks for note Kat and enjoyed your comment:

It is a very tricky high wire act so as
> not to fall into the holes between the net -- this study of 
philosophy
> which changes one internally and does not then become the 
next One True
> Faith. Most of us have deep psychology to wrestle with before 
we are clear
> enough to study without prejudice. 

That pretty much says it for me as well.

I was impressed that according to the Jains manner of 
discourse varieties of perception and truth were incorporated 
and accepted. This is an ideal of course, but ideals can be 
models for us and that is their value.

There are some other variations on this theme from other 
groups.

The Baha'is have what is called "consultation" in which each 
person is allowed to contribute and be heard... the opinions are 
then shared and brought out into the open... without 
condemnation. Finally a process of decision may or may not 
take place.

The Society of Friends (Hicksite-Silent Meeting variety) can only 
make decisions as a body with the full unanaimous consent of 
every member. I have seen this put into practise as a member of 
a small Friends Meeting some forty years ago. It was actually 
quite effective. The Friends of this particular variety are known for 
a fairness and sensitivity that is extremely rare in today's society.

- Art Gregory


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999



From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 25 01:19:35 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Reading Leadbeater's "The Life after Death"
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

I recently read C. W. Leadbeater's Life after Death and found it 
extremely well done.

He writes in a way that presents truths in a rather timeless way 
about how to regard death and the deceased. It is generally 
positive as well and encouraging.

He delineates the effects of the views of traditional Churches on 
deceased souls as well as the customs of mourning for the 
dead.

I also felt he gave some excellent recommendations regarding 
Helping the Dead. He felt that uncontrolled grief was 
harmful...He wrote:

"everyone knows some case of sorrow or distress, whetehr 
among the living or the dead does not matter; if you know such a 
case, take it into your mind when you lie down to sleep, and 
resolve as soon as you are free from this body to go to that 
person and endeavor to comfort him....be well assured that your 
resolve will not be fruitless..."

- Arthur Gregory


99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 25 09:19:16 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Thanks Peter for your letter... I had almost overlooked it with all of 
the missives flying around...

My concern is with the impression that there is a kind of 
"orthodoxy" view of Theosophy... this view stresses the writings 
of Madam Blavatsky and perhaps a few other writers and shuns 
or disapproves of later views and contributions.

I think it's apparent from the topics on this list that there are 
people on various sides..

I sense that Dallas is trying to posit that unless we are extremely 
studied in these writings we really can't debate them or consider 
other views, this I gathered from his sixth point as you recall.

What I dislike is making theosophy into a religion with prophets 
and sacred scriptures. I think that's behind some of the issues 
on this list. To me Leadbeater has worthwhile things to say as 
does Rudolf Steiner and Alice Bailey and others, so i am making 
a plea here to be theosophists with a small "t" as opposed to 
Theosophists I think.

- Art


--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Peter Merriott"  
wrote:
> Art,
> 
> I think you are misrepresenting what Dallas wrote. The subject 
of his
> discussion with Kym et al was: What does Theosophy teach?
> 
> He suggested, among many other things, that in order to 
answer this question
> it would be valuable to have studied the writings already given 
to us by HPB
> and the Mahatmas, the founders of the TS. He says if we don't 
know what
> they have given us we are not really in a position to debate the 
fundamental
> tenets found therein - either pro or con.
> 
> This makes sense, doesn't it. etc.


00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


From brigid.lucas@lycos.com Wed Oct 25 16:31:01 2000
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Subject: Re: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: brigid.lucas@lycos.com

Greetings all,

I have just joined this group, so this will be the first message that 
I will post...

I think Art is correct on this subject. I am not too familiar with 
Thoesophy, although I have read The Secret Doctrine by Madame 
Blavatsky. You will notice on the title page (at least on the copy I 
own) that it says: "There is no Religion higher than Truth". This, I 
think, is (or should be) the mission of the Theosophical Movement. 
Therefore, if Bailey or Leadbeter have anything true to contribute 
(as I know many people feel), then their books should be approved of 
as well. Indeed, why should anything but the Truth (and all of it) be 
considered scripture?

Lucas of Brigid

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, arthra999@y... wrote:
> Thanks Peter for your letter... I had almost overlooked it with all 
of 
> the missives flying around...
> 
> My concern is with the impression that there is a kind of 
> "orthodoxy" view of Theosophy... this view stresses the writings 
> of Madam Blavatsky and perhaps a few other writers and shuns 
> or disapproves of later views and contributions.
> 
> I think it's apparent from the topics on this list that there are 
> people on various sides..
> 
> I sense that Dallas is trying to posit that unless we are extremely 
> studied in these writings we really can't debate them or consider 
> other views, this I gathered from his sixth point as you recall.
> 
> What I dislike is making theosophy into a religion with prophets 
> and sacred scriptures. I think that's behind some of the issues 
> on this list. To me Leadbeater has worthwhile things to say as 
> does Rudolf Steiner and Alice Bailey and others, so i am making 
> a plea here to be theosophists with a small "t" as opposed to 
> Theosophists I think.
> 
> - Art


From samblo@cs.com Wed Oct 25 17:27:30 2000
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:27:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: samblo@cs.com

To All the interesting contributors of the Dialog:

I seldom put in my 2 cents worth as I so enjoy reading the many 
worthy 
posts made here. Especially the new contributor "Katarc". But I am 
moved to propose a view. H.P.B. and the Mahatmas and the ancient
resources postulated the 7 fold Economy or constitution of the Being.
My observation is that is is a Dynamic Manifold Economy that extends
beyond the Personal and also operates at the other scales of Mankind.

When H.P.B. passed from the Earth essential the "Atmic and Buddhic"
vehicles of Theosophy were Inhibited and my observation was that what 
of 
Theosophy that remained carried out the predictable reorganization along
the lines of the Affinities that were the Dominants of 
Individuals--schisms 
developed and new Lodges appeared that ordered their focus to the 
collective
affinities of the members and those whose requirement internals 
necessitated
a more dominant attention and recognition of Christian Belief reordered 
the new
Dispensation. Alice Baily. Leadbetter, and others issued a new view 
aligning to a 
Western society. Some formed the Hermes Lodge in London and decried what 
the 
other "Vehicles" were doing. I see that much like the Economy of Being 
they 
grouped together, those with the "Astral Body" strong adopted teachings 
that 
pleasured that vehicles affinities and others grouped to the "Kama Body" 
and 
it's dominant affinities. Others aligned to the "Manas" and taught 
Intellectual 
content. There were several Transformation in the Decades that followed 
each
seemed to manifest the nature of the "Vehicles" as a Diaspora consequent 
to 
Madam Blavatsky's passing. I see the same function happen to Nations,
Political Parties, Corporations on various Dynamic levels. Perhaps if we 
reflect on 
The 7-Fold Economy more we might understand the ground we stand on common
to us all.


John

From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Oct 25 19:04:19 2000
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Subject: Re: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Lucas, 

Thanks for your letter! Since you read The Secret Doctrine, I think 
you deserve plaudits and commendations! It was a struggle for 
me I must confess but well worth the effort. I think there are 
some findings of modern archeology in Central Asia that will 
confirm much that she wrote about.

It is sad as we know that the TS historically for such a relatively 
small movement in terms of numbers has been rife with so 
much descension and divisiveness.

Joy Mills gave a presentation not long ago on this subject and 
expressed the hope that the next century would be different from 
the last for the theosophical movement.

I think each of us can find ways to bridge the traditional gaps 
and canyons that have divided sincere seekers for truth in this 
movement.

- Art

--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, brigid.lucas@l... wrote:
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have just joined this group, so this will be the first message 
that 
> I will post...
> 
> I think Art is correct on this subject. I am not too familiar with 
> Thoesophy, although I have read The Secret Doctrine by 
Madame 
> Blavatsky. You will notice on the title page (at least on the copy I 
> own) that it says: "There is no Religion higher than Truth". This, 
I 
> think, is (or should be) the mission of the Theosophical 
Movement. 
> Therefore, if Bailey or Leadbeter have anything true to 
contribute 
> (as I know many people feel), then their books should be 
approved of 
> as well. Indeed, why should anything but the Truth (and all of it) 
be 
> considered scripture?
> 
> Lucas of Brigid
> 
> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, arthra999@y... wrote:
> > Thanks Peter for your letter... I had almost overlooked it with 
all 
> of 
> > the missives flying around...
> > 
> > My concern is with the impression that there is a kind of 
> > "orthodoxy" view of Theosophy... this view stresses the 
writings 
> > of Madam Blavatsky and perhaps a few other writers and 
shuns 
> > or disapproves of later views and contributions.
> > 
> > I think it's apparent from the topics on this list that there are 
> > people on various sides..
> > 
> > I sense that Dallas is trying to posit that unless we are 
extremely 
> > studied in these writings we really can't debate them or 
consider 
> > other views, this I gathered from his sixth point as you recall.
> > 
> > What I dislike is making theosophy into a religion with 
prophets 
> > and sacred scriptures. I think that's behind some of the 
issues 
> > on this list. To me Leadbeater has worthwhile things to say 
as 
> > does Rudolf Steiner and Alice Bailey and others, so i am 
making 
> > a plea here to be theosophists with a small "t" as opposed to 
> > Theosophists I think.
> > 
> > - Art


From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Oct 25 19:17:37 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: Bart Lidofsky 

brigid.lucas@lycos.com wrote:
> I think Art is correct on this subject. I am not too familiar with
> Thoesophy, although I have read The Secret Doctrine by Madame
> Blavatsky. You will notice on the title page (at least on the copy I
> own) that it says: "There is no Religion higher than Truth". This, I
> think, is (or should be) the mission of the Theosophical Movement.
> Therefore, if Bailey or Leadbeter have anything true to contribute
> (as I know many people feel), then their books should be approved of
> as well. Indeed, why should anything but the Truth (and all of it) be
> considered scripture?

Nothing but the Truth should be considered scripture. If Blavatsky and
the Mahatma letters aren't scripture, then Bailey and Leadbeater
certainly aren't.

Bart Lidofsky

From KArc@compuserve.com Thu Oct 26 02:11:48 2000
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 05:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
Cc: Kathleen Arc <107656.1235@compuserve.com>
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From: Kathleen Arc 

I'm disposed to agree with John, Art and Lucas...for more than egoistic
reasons....

...because whenever a Great Teacher "dies" there are always schisms. I see
that with the recent passing of a teacher whose work and interaction
propelled me forward in this lifetime. Although it was a very painful
process to move beyond the functioning parameters of my own emotional
state, it was an exhilarating discovery to later realize I was no longer
under its "thrall". It was as if the "original Wound" had been lanced by a
very precise hand. I could still hang out there if I wanted to be pissy,
having one of those minds that dislikes being "wrong" -- HA! It's still a
very familiar and attractive hang-out -- which this type of study allows me
to rise beyond from time to time. But I no longer THOUGHT I was that
emotional body. And now occasionally I can inhabit a condition where I'm
no longer the Lower Mind either.

Having had the personal experience of "growing" beyond one body to another
in this lifetime, I see what a fool I can be (and was) when I retrn to my
old "haunts". The trouble is I can't seem to lose it and get it gone
permanently. Mental Training and personal re-structuring are necessary.=20
But I can only learn with what I have functioning so far, n'est-ce pas? So
I'm going to be drawn to this one or that one, given my "orientation".=20
More's the pity. And Karma. I always speak with a combo of mind-feeling
because that's where I live -- and I am now actually physically living
somewhere where I can finally spend focused time on this writing of Mme.
Blavatsky's. When I return to the states in January I hope to get my own
copy of SD and Isis Unveiled. I'm ashamed to say I've never personally
read them -- I wasn't able to before. It's a lot like when I demanded of
myself that I read all of Shakespeare as a 13-year-old just to say I'd done
it. Well it was a start! And I DO have all the "Collected Writings" which
were accomplished to keep the wolf from the door.=20

HPB's seminal work is still "code" to me, however. Therefore, my
superiority notwithstanding, I' need a good dose of humility doled out by
continuing to "hang" with you all when I can get my mind around your
precise and clear delineations. Of course there are many "bodies" and of
course I do not yet inhabit very many of them -- although they're all
properly attached. It's like a fully-loaded computer (such as the one on
which I write) where one only uses a fraction of the power and tools
available. That's why I would hope to see you all move beyond prejudices
of your own mental bodies so that we can together decipher from the Higher
Mind -- in an altered state from that of the normal logical mind -- much
of what has been dictated and written down via that particular incredible
consciousness.

So thank you for continuing to speak of the octaves of consciousness. Just
like advertising, I only begin to get it when I've heard it all at least
three times. And thank you for including the work of others who came
after. Eventually we can all sort the wheat...etc. Kat in Italy=20

From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 26 07:51:01 2000
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References: <8t7qff+7oa1@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:55:08 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Greetings, Lucas. Welcome. Thanks for your input. Good. Yes indeed.
"There is no religion higher than truth."

And.

"Love is the Child of Freedom."
(via Eric Fromm from an old French song.)

and


"There is no freedom without discipline."
(D.K.)

Eugene




----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:30 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: A plea for theosophy with a small "t":


> Greetings all,
>
> I have just joined this group, so this will be the first message that
> I will post...
>
> I think Art is correct on this subject. I am not too familiar with
> Thoesophy, although I have read The Secret Doctrine by Madame
> Blavatsky. You will notice on the title page (at least on the copy I
> own) that it says: "There is no Religion higher than Truth". This, I
> think, is (or should be) the mission of the Theosophical Movement.
> Therefore, if Bailey or Leadbeter have anything true to contribute
> (as I know many people feel), then their books should be approved of
> as well. Indeed, why should anything but the Truth (and all of it) be
> considered scripture?
>
> Lucas of Brigid
>
> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, arthra999@y... wrote:
> > Thanks Peter for your letter... I had almost overlooked it with all
> of
> > the missives flying around...
> >
> > My concern is with the impression that there is a kind of
> > "orthodoxy" view of Theosophy... this view stresses the writings
> > of Madam Blavatsky and perhaps a few other writers and shuns
> > or disapproves of later views and contributions.
> >
> > I think it's apparent from the topics on this list that there are
> > people on various sides..
> >
> > I sense that Dallas is trying to posit that unless we are extremely
> > studied in these writings we really can't debate them or consider
> > other views, this I gathered from his sixth point as you recall.
> >
> > What I dislike is making theosophy into a religion with prophets
> > and sacred scriptures. I think that's behind some of the issues
> > on this list. To me Leadbeater has worthwhile things to say as
> > does Rudolf Steiner and Alice Bailey and others, so i am making
> > a plea here to be theosophists with a small "t" as opposed to
> > Theosophists I think.
> >
> > - Art
>
>
>
>
>
>


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 26 07:57:56 2000
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To: 
References: <200010260511_MC2-B87E-4491@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:01:52 -0700
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks Kat. Beautifully written. You are in for a glorious treat.

Gene


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kathleen Arc" 
To: 
Cc: "Kathleen Arc" <107656.1235@compuserve.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":


> I'm disposed to agree with John, Art and Lucas...for more than egoistic
> reasons....
> 
> ...because whenever a Great Teacher "dies" there are always schisms. 


From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Oct 26 08:01:37 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Thanks, John. Each silly little selve can learn to identify with the one
life laughing at all it's silly little selves.

Gene



----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":


> To All the interesting contributors of the Dialog:
>
> I seldom put in my 2 cents worth as I so enjoy reading the many
> worthy
> posts made here. Especially the new contributor "Katarc". But I am
> moved to propose a view


From sherab@wenet.net Thu Oct 26 12:02:41 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: About The Theosophical Movement
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From: "Sherab Dorje" 

Dear Friends,

You all have Theosophy in common and as you must recall, it is all 
about creating a Brotherhood of Mankind. It is for each and everyone 
of us to reach within and find the Truth about who and what we are. 
This sense of brotherhood can only come about when each one realizes 
experientially the undeniable connectedness that we all have with one 
another and with all things. Madame Blavatsky was not the only one 
who wrote about the Divine Wisdom. The writings of various persons in 
this theosophical movement and other wisdom traditions constitute a 
rich archive of those explorations and the honest sharings of what 
has been discovered. As with all things of value the writings of 
theosophists must also stand the test of time and be weighed against 
our own truths. There are two components to Wisdom, the intellectual 
knowledge, and the actual realization of it. It is very important to 
rely on the writings, but only as a guide, as they must also be 
tested by you. There is great knowledge in these writings and there 
is also some chaff, it is up to each one to do his or her own 
winnowing.

After H.P.B. passed on the Movement split into two main branches 
because there was a difference about whether psychic powers should or 
should not be employed in furthering the aims of the Theosophical 
Movement. The branch that primarily took root in southern California 
around Katherine Tingley, and G. De Purucker, formed around the 
notion that, as H.P.B. had warned against the use of psychic powers, 
their focus would primarily be centered on the ethical tradition as a 
way of life or path. We now understand these ethical teachings to be 
the precepts of the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. The other branch 
that headquartered in Adyar, India, with Annie Besant, and Charles 
Leadbeater, developed to explore and further the Theosophical 
Movement along the lines of the psychic development of man. Both 
branches had and still have at their heart the original desire to 
further the development in the world a brotherhood of all mankind 
living in peace and harmony through the knowledge and practice of the 
wisdom traditions.

For those of you who would enjoy reading about some of this history, 
I would encourage you to acquire the book "California Utopia: Point 
Loma: 1897-1942. It contains an unbiased treatment on the roots of 
the Theosophical Movement and its development into the branch guided 
by Katherine Tingley and following her G.De Purucker. This community 
flourished through living and teaching what H.P.B. had taught. The 
writings of G. De Purucker are especially good in that they provide a 
course structure and clear understandable explanation of H.P.B.'s 
teachings and much more.

There are tremendously valuable theosophical teachings available in 
the form of writings still available through Point Loma Publications, 
and the Theosophical University Press. I would encourage anyone and 
all to explore the minds and lives of other really great theosophists.

May your path be free,
Sherab

Point Loma Publications
http://www.wisdomtraditions.com/PLPCatFr.html
Theosophical University Press
http://user.aol.com/tstec/hmpage/tup.htm



From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 16:22:02 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: About The Theosophical Movement
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Thanks Sherab for your views... I happen to have visited the 
original grounds of Point Loma not long ago masquerading as a 
disoriented tourist as the property is now a Nazarene College or 
such. To me they have preserved rather well the main 
buildings... It was a special treat for me and my family and no 
one came after us for trespassing... 

I also feel Tingley was certainly for the ethical movement of 
theosophy and highly regard her efforts... There was a period 
however that I wondered about her being an "autocrat" as she 
assumed the mantle of authority and to be rather authoritarian.

I do enjoy the publications however from the Theosophical 
University Press and magazine.

Shalom, Salaam and Shanti

- Art





--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Sherab Dorje"  
wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> You all have Theosophy in common and as you must recall, it 
is all 
> about creating a Brotherhood of Mankind.....
> After H.P.B. passed on the Movement split into two main 
branches 
> because there was a difference about whether psychic powers 
should or 
> should not be employed in furthering the aims of the 
Theosophical 
> Movement. The branch that primarily took root in southern 
California 
> around Katherine Tingley, and G. De Purucker, formed around 
the 
> notion that, as H.P.B. had warned against the use of psychic 
powers, 
> their focus would primarily be centered on the ethical tradition 
as a 
> way of life or path. We now understand these ethical teachings 
to be 
> the precepts of the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. The other 
branch 
> that headquartered in Adyar, India, with Annie Besant, and 
Charles 
> Leadbeater, developed to explore and further the Theosophical 
> Movement along the lines of the psychic development of man. 
Both 
> branches had and still have at their heart the original desire to 
> further the development in the world a brotherhood of all 
mankind 
> living in peace and harmony through the knowledge and 
practice of the 
> wisdom traditions.
> 



From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 20:43:45 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: "All original thinkers ...Theosophists"
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

"All original thinkers and investigators of the hidden side of=20
nature were and are properly, Theosophists ... Be what he may,=20
once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of=20
routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent=20
Thought =96 Godward =96 he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a=20
seeker after the eternal truth with 'an inspiration of his own' to=20
solve the universal problems."=A0=20


--Helena Blavatskaya (1831-91)=A0=20



00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






From ringding@blinx.de Thu Oct 26 20:57:48 2000
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To: 
References: <8t9v19+10hh@eGroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World About The Theosophical Movement
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:32:14 +0200
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------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C03FA4.F85E7420
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sherab Dorje wrote:

>has been discovered. As with all things of value the writings of=20
>theosophists must also stand the test of time and be weighed against=20
>our own truths. There are two components to Wisdom, the intellectual=20
>knowledge, and the actual realization of it. It is very important to=20
>rely on the writings, but only as a guide, as they must also be=20
>tested by you. There is great knowledge in these writings and there=20
>is also some chaff, it is up to each one to do his or her own=20
>winnowing.

Well said, Sherab. HPB is the licmus test for the later Theosophists, esp. =
for those who have claimed to have been in touch with her after she went an=
d claimed to follow her, having higher teachers then she or have renewed he=
r.
Ringding

------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C03FA4.F85E7420
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sherab Dorje wrote:


 


>has been discovered. As with all things of valu=
e the=20
writings of 
>theosophists must also stand the test of time and be we=
ighed=20
against 
>our own truths. There are two components to Wisdom, the=20
intellectual 
>knowledge, and the actual realization of it. It is ver=
y=20
important to 
>rely on the writings, but only as a guide, as they mus=
t=20
also be 
>tested by you. There is great knowledge in these writings a=
nd=20
there 
>is also some chaff, it is up to each one to do his or her own=
=20

>winnowing.


Well said, Sherab. HPB is the licmus test for the l=
ater=20
Theosophists, esp. for those who have claimed to have been in touch with he=
r=20
after she went and claimed to follow her, having higher teachers then she o=
r=20
have renewed her.


Ringding


------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C03FA4.F85E7420--

From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Oct 26 23:49:15 2000
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From: Compiler 


The first series found below, a 13-part one about the Movement,
is entitled: "The Rising Cycle", and it is all finished.

The second series, a 10-part one, is entitled "Aftermath", and it
is just underway, with the first article in it, the Introduction, now
finished.

This is how they are presented on the "Additional" page, which is the
INDEX page of all the additional articles found on the Wisdom World
web site -- after the Introductory book of 166 compiled articles:

-------
SOME OF THE HISTORICAL INTERNAL PROBLEMS OF THE
MODERN THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ITSELF -- SINCE 1875

Compiler's note: NEW! The articles presented in this section are
offered so that all present-day Theosophists, from all organizations,
and from none, can understand, along with all of humanity, some of
this history -- so as to learn from it and then put it aside from a
practical working-together point of view. Why? So that the wisest
and most knowledgeable members from within all of the groups can
now come together and present a "United" front of pure, undistorted,
and undiluted Theosophy to humanity that can always hold its own and
be irrefutable under the welcomed and tough scrutiny and investigation
of all scientists, scholars, teachers, philosophers, thinkers, and
religionists of this world. How? In two new publications, for starters,
as proposed in the right-hand column of the "Main Page" and in the
continuing rough "Introductory Brochure" link (which has some new
and clearly marked, in blue, re-written paragraphs in it that speak
of this proposal) found at the top left hand column of that page.
Both links are found at the bottom of every page on this web site.
-------

I hope you find these articles useful. The links now follow.

Compiler
-------

(1) The Rising Cycle (13-part series):
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/theosophicalmovement/index.html

(2) Aftermath (10-part series):
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AFTERMATH-10-PartSeries/index.html

(3) This is the "Additional" articles INDEX page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

(4) This is the "Main Page" of the site:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------



From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Oct 27 06:24:03 2000
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:22:44 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Re: About The Theosophical Movement
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear ARt -- When i was attempting to produce a spiritual novel by a writer
who had written 100 adventure books but only one of them spiritual, I found
he had lived at Pt. Loma for a time. I visited and made connection with=20
the powers that were at Pt. Loma. The gentleman with whom I connected had
been a young boy during K.Tingley's days. He said they had come round an
outdoor fire every evening to "hear" the author read new material each
night. Eventually Pt. Loma (under this gentleman's direction) had
published their own edition of the book in question. They were so
marvelous to deal with and of course the Lama in the book was possibly
patterned after Katherine Tingley. It is a wonderful
adventure-cum-spiritual story. Love from italy, Kat

From malcom@u-n-i.net Fri Oct 27 07:01:59 2000
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From: "N.Malcom" 

Oh, quit teasing us!! What book?? Was it the author you were producing that
had the book done at Point Loma, or the gentleman you met while there?
Sounds like a good read. Is it available? nancy

----------
> From: Kathleen Arc 
> To: INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World Re: About The Theosophical Movement
> Date: Friday, October 27, 2000 8:22 AM
> 
Dear ARt -- When i was attempting to produce a spiritual novel by a writer
who had written 100 adventure books but only one of them spiritual, I found
he had lived at Pt. Loma for a time. I visited and made connection with 
the powers that were at Pt. Loma. The gentleman with whom I connected had
been a young boy during K.Tingley's days. He said they had come round an
outdoor fire every evening to "hear" the author read new material each
night. Eventually Pt. Loma (under this gentleman's direction) had
published their own edition of the book in question. They were so
marvelous to deal with and of course the Lama in the book was possibly
patterned after Katherine Tingley. It is a wonderful
adventure-cum-spiritual story. Love from italy, Kat

eGroups Sponsor 
[] 
 


From mribeiro@iron.com.br Fri Oct 27 07:23:00 2000
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Maur=EDcio=20Jos=E9?= Torino Ribeiro 

> Hi,

Im Mauricio Ribeiro, brazilian born and citizen, and wanna to made
contact with some mental high degree institution on USA to developing a
engaging process with my 8 continuous years hearing and for 3 and half years
talking mediunity ability.
Unfortunatelly I am a dassie poor, but with my generalizated
sensitivity and full primary wisdow I believe to made a "pre overnyspreading"
analysis on any people who wanna do a conditional check up. My background are
had been written the Saga of Zolam, Memoirses of A Semi Schizophrenic Person,
Poesias Muito Especiais and Considerações Adicionais Seriamente Oportunas,
besides my History Graduation and had a brother who yet lived here in USA.
No more,
Good Enlightments and Entertainments,
M.Ribeiro.




> eGroups eLerts
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To: 
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Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: About The Theosophical Movement
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:10:11 -0700
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From: "Nick Weeks" 

Kat is probably referring to Talbot Mundy, author of KING OF THE KHYBER
RIFLES; OM; OLD UGLY FACE and many more. I SAY SUNRISE was his philosophical
non-fiction book. He also wrote many articles on Theosophical themes for the
Tingley era magazines.

The "gentleman" is Emmett Small, now 97 years strong. My wife and I saw him
6 months ago -- not as spry as couple of years ago, but still a damn fine
theosophist. His Point Loma publications has a website at:
www.wisdomtraditions.com

Nicholas


Kat:

> Dear ARt -- When i was attempting to produce a spiritual novel by a writer
> who had written 100 adventure books but only one of them spiritual, I found
> he had lived at Pt. Loma for a time. I visited and made connection with
> the powers that were at Pt. Loma. The gentleman with whom I connected had
> been a young boy during K.Tingley's days. He said they had come round an
> outdoor fire every evening to "hear" the author read new material each
> night. Eventually Pt. Loma (under this gentleman's direction) had
> published their own edition of the book in question. They were so
> marvelous to deal with and of course the Lama in the book was possibly
> patterned after Katherine Tingley. It is a wonderful
> adventure-cum-spiritual story. Love from italy, Kat



From malcom@u-n-i.net Fri Oct 27 11:57:06 2000
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From: "N.Malcom" 

Thank you! nancy

----------
> From: Nick Weeks 
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: About The Theosophical Movement
> Date: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:10 AM
> 
Kat is probably referring to Talbot Mundy, author of KING OF THE KHYBER
RIFLES; OM; OLD UGLY FACE and many more. I SAY SUNRISE was his
philosophical
non-fiction book. He also wrote many articles on Theosophical themes for
the
Tingley era magazines.

The "gentleman" is Emmett Small, now 97 years strong. My wife and I saw
him
6 months ago -- not as spry as couple of years ago, but still a damn fine
theosophist. His Point Loma publications has a website at:
www.wisdomtraditions.com

Nicholas


Kat:

> Dear ARt -- When i was attempting to produce a spiritual novel by a
writer
> who had written 100 adventure books but only one of them spiritual, I
found
> he had lived at Pt. Loma for a time. I visited and made connection with
> the powers that were at Pt. Loma. The gentleman with whom I connected
had
> been a young boy during K.Tingley's days. He said they had come round an
> outdoor fire every evening to "hear" the author read new material each
> night. Eventually Pt. Loma (under this gentleman's direction) had
> published their own edition of the book in question. They were so
> marvelous to deal with and of course the Lama in the book was possibly
> patterned after Katherine Tingley. It is a wonderful
> adventure-cum-spiritual story. Love from italy, Kat



eGroups Sponsor 
[] 
 


From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Oct 27 14:10:36 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Thanks Kat and Happy Divali!
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Thanks Kat for the letter!

Have a Happy Divali!!

That was a great story as well... I recently came across OM 
Valley and hope to read it! 

In our area we had at one time a fairly good representation on 
theosophists and I recall several volumns in our public library 
with the archetect drawings of Point Loma... very advanced for 
their time... 

I attended some TS meetings as a teenager with my friends... I 
also took a correspondence course on one of the tomes of 
Perucher. They do a good job I think.

Tonight I'm visited a local Hindu temple for Divali as some 
Hindus in my Yoga class invited me....

The priest there taught me Sanscrit for a year or so.... but I was 
so old and slow at it I think it was pouring water over a stone! 
But I do read the Devanagri still and can read a dictionary 
Sanscrit-English so all was not for naught...

Divali sound a little lto me like La Pasada in Mexico... Peopel go 
from house to house with candles asking for room for the Christ 
child... only in India it's Lakshmi and an Owl and candles... a 
victory over a deamon Rakshasa,or such (maybe someone will 
explain this...)then there's the Mahasamadhi of Lord Mahavira 
observed by Jains on the same holiday.

- Art Gregory




--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Kathleen Arc  wrote:
> Dear ARt -- When i was attempting to produce a spiritual novel 
by a writer
> who had written 100 adventure books but only one of them 
spiritual, I found
> he had lived at Pt. Loma for a time. I visited and made 
connection with 
> the powers that were at Pt. Loma. The gentleman with whom I 
connected had
> been a young boy during K.Tingley's days. He said they had 
come round an
> outdoor fire every evening to "hear" the author read new 
material each
> night. Eventually Pt. Loma (under this gentleman's direction) 
had
> published their own edition of the book in question. They were 
so
> marvelous to deal with and of course the Lama in the book 
was possibly
> patterned after Katherine Tingley. It is a wonderful
> adventure-cum-spiritual story. Love from italy, Kat


From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri Oct 27 16:18:44 2000
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Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:02:07 -0700
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From: "Dennis Kier" 

Kathleen Arc wrote:

When I return to the states in January I hope to get my own
> copy of SD and Isis Unveiled.

Why wait? Read them On-line. Or, Even,... I think you can Download
them. I think they are available on-line at:
www.theosociety.org/Pasadena/
I seem to recall seeing something there that they were available for
download in a variety of forms. Check it out to see.

Dennis




From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 28 00:32:16 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:32:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World A plea for theosophy with a small "t":
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dennis -- Thank you so much -- however being in Italy, when one of us wants
to be online, the other can't be...electricity goes out for days at a
time....etc. (LOL). AND I'm an old-fashioned girl -- love the printed
page. So I won't necessarily wait but PREFER to read a book in my hands.=20
But I'm thrilled to know it can be done otherwise. Regards, kat in Italy

From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 28 00:43:40 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:43:27 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Thanks Kat and Happy Divali!
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear ARt -- Thanks so much for KNOWING which book to which i referred. You
will find it totally VISUAL and I do still INTEND it being a film. And I
would LOVE to be involved in its creation. Around the time I showed a
too-early, too-earnest version of the script all over
Hollywood...Spielberg came out with "Raiders"...It was close in adventure
-- but obviously the time was not yet RIPE for THAT particular work. It
works so well because on multi-levels...ALSO I created a literary device
for some of the more INTERNAL moments in the book. My 5th draft was real
close by Hollywood types were "bored" with my idea by then, and -- you MAY
NOT BELIEVE THIS -- the day I FINISHED the last draft, a 50 foot tree fell
on my head, neck and back in the Commissary garden at 20th Century Fox,
significantly ending my production career.

I always felt it was G*d's way of saying, "WRONG WAY" at the time. I had a
lot of INTERNAL movement to make before I could properly create a film on a
spiritual level. Well a lot of work has been done. And I got "retired"
this past year. And I have brought from US 5 writing projects to complete.
So .....Destiny calls....

Please give me your thoughts on the book when you're ready.

Meanwhile...we have lovely owls here in our 10 acres above a tiny woods
just above a huge lake -- Our little owls sound like banshees in the middle
of the night....our cats know to keep well hidden. It's a wilderness at
night for them. I heard "something" cry out last night and our faithful dog
went running to do battle.=20

This is an extraordinary antique land with a 500 year old castle in sight
and the intense energies of ancient etruscans still palpable. Isn't it
strange to be transplanted all in a twinkling?! I still am attempting to
plant myself and LEARN a new language. It is not easy ''water over stone"
indeed. I have promised myself in spring to go to classes -- I thought i
could simply absorb it like osmosis....wellllll something's still missing
in that part of this brain!=20=20

Love, Kat in Italy

From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 28 00:45:32 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:44:54 -0400
Subject: Theos-World Thanks Kat and Happy Divali!
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

P.S. After you've finished the book, I have another incredible story to
tell you of my visit to the very old widow of the author -- who herself had
been a very young wife of an older man when they married -- and what she
told me of HIS experiences while writing the book. Kat

From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Oct 28 00:47:54 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:47:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: About The Theosophical Movement
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

it makes me happy to know Emmett Small's website and to know of his good
health. When anyone visits him, please convey my gratitude for his
kindness and good faith. Kat in Italy

From arthra999@yahoo.com Sat Oct 28 09:37:43 2000
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Subject: Re: Thanks Kat and Happy Divali!
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

Well Kat you certainly DO have a story! 

I can't top that... I must say...

When you were talking about Point Loma, it occurred to me that 
Ojai is also not far away. I was told that the hills near Ojai were 
used in Lost Horizons as a backdrop.

Now I looked closely at those hills and then watched the old 
movie and couldn't tell...

I guess some of those old bungalows at Ojai were possibly 
there when Krishnamurti stayed there...


Anyway I liked your story...again. Maybe it was providential and 
all since you are near that five hundred year old castle.

My wife and I had a misfortune some years ago and ended up in 
the Holy Land in Haifa largely because of it and had a great time! 
Maybe your case was like that.

- Art








-- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Kathleen Arc  wrote:
> Dear ARt -- Thanks so much for KNOWING which book to 
which i referred. You
> will find it totally VISUAL and I do still INTEND it being a film. 
And I
> would LOVE to be involved in its creation. Around the time I 
showed a
> too-early, too-earnest version of the script all over
> Hollywood...Spielberg came out with "Raiders"...It was close in 
adventure
> -- but obviously the time was not yet RIPE for THAT particular 
work. It
> works so well because on multi-levels...ALSO I created a 
literary device
> for some of the more INTERNAL moments in the book. My 5th 
draft was real
> close by Hollywood types were "bored" with my idea by then, 
and -- you MAY
> NOT BELIEVE THIS -- the day I FINISHED the last draft, a 50 
foot tree fell
> on my head, neck and back in the Commissary garden at 20th 
Century Fox,
> significantly ending my production career.
> 
....


From gregory@zeta.org.au Sun Oct 29 01:13:34 2000
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Subject: Occult Chemistry
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From: Dr Gregory Tillett 

I suspect that the reference to the "recent (1982?) book by a modern 
scientist comparing the finding of Occult Chemistry with modern particle 
physics theory" referred to by jimkotz@mail.com in a posting in September 
is to: "Extra-Senory Perception of Quarks" by Stephen M. Phillips, 
Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Ill., 1980, ISBN 0-8356-0227-3. 
There is a more recent book by the same author: "Evidence of a Yogic 
Siddhi. Anima. Remote Viewing of Subatomic Particles", Theosophical 
Publishing House, Ahyar, 1996, ISBN 81-7059-297-6. There is also a 
Theosophical commentary on Phillips work: E. Lester Smith, "Occult 
Chemisty Re-Evaluated", Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Ill., 
1982, ISBN 0-8356-0230-3. However, Phillips' work has not been seriously 
reviewed in the scientific literature. I conducted a detailed search of 
all standards peer-reviewed scholarly works in the field (including a 
search of Science Citation Index) and found only one review. It was 
scathing and sceptical, with references to similarities to "Chariots of 
the Gods". Dr E. Walker commented: "... there is something noble in 
Phillips' efforts to vindicate Besant and Leadbeater. But does the case 
for psychic percpetion succeed? At times I felt Phillips might just pull 
it off. Yet I could never escape the feeling that the author was 
searching for the origins and forms of atoms and elementary particles 
amid the shapes of snowflakes in the sky and figures of diatoms in the 
sea." "A Book Review of 'ESP of Quarks", quoted in "Theosophical Research 
Institute - Wheaton Newsletter", No. 10, September, 1982. The literature 
published by the (Adyar) Theosophical Society on the Occult Chemistry 
research is vast.

From KArc@compuserve.com Sun Oct 29 07:35:51 2000
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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:35:46 -0500
Subject: Theos-World Re: Thanks Kat and Happy Divali!
Sender: Kathleen Arc 
To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" 
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From: Kathleen Arc 

Dear Art -- I have a feeling ALL mishaps are like that -- but perhaps my
perceptions are skewed? After all a 50' tree did fall on my head! Love,
Kat

From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Oct 29 17:44:57 2000
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To: "Philip Trask" 
Subject: Re: Question about resources
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From: Eldon B Tucker 

Shelley:

I don't have any good suggestions at the moment, but
someone on the mahat or theos-talk mailing lists might
have some information, so I'll forward your message
there.

(If anyone on either list has some information, they
should "cc:" a copy to you.)


You can visit the lists at:

http://www.egroups.com/group/theos-talk
http://www.egroups.com/group/mahat


-- Eldon Tucker

At 06:41 PM 10/26/00 -0700, you wrote:
>To Whom it may Concern:
>
>I am writing a paper on Theosophy and how it has affected Art and would 
>like some reliable sources for my references. As an unlearned student in 
>Theosophy, I am at a loss for a starting point. Any help you could offer 
>would be much appreciated. Please reply to the e-mail below. Thank you.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Shelley Trask
>bluefelt@hotmail.com


From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Oct 29 19:25:01 2000
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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:16:53 -0700
Subject: Blavatsky Archives: Reprint of 3 more items.
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From: "Blavatsky Archives" 


Blavatsky Archives: Reprint of 3 more items.

Three more items have just been added to the
BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com
http://blavatsky.cc

*** About Spiritualism. [An Interview with Madame Blavatsky]=20
[Reprinted from The Daily Graphic (New York) November 13, 1874, p. 90.]

***About Spiritualism: [Madame Blavatsky's "Letter to the Editor"]=20=20
[Reprinted from The Daily Graphic (New York) November 13, 1874, pp. 90-91.]

***The New Cagliostro: An Open Letter to Madame Blavatsky by G. W. Foote.

[A 16-page pamphlet published in 1889.]

These articles will be found in the=20
"New Items" section.

---------------------------------------
Daniel H. Caldwell
info@blavatskyarchives.com
BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com
http://blavatsky.cc

You can always access our site by
simply typing into the URL address
bar the following 6 characters:

hpb.cc
---------------------------------------



From sherab@wenet.net Sun Oct 29 21:16:23 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Ommony and Art
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From: "Sherab Dorje" 

Dear Friends,

Thank you for your kind responses to my posting of "opinions" about 
the Theosophical Movement. The measure was appreciated and in the 
process I was led to feel like there is good company here.

It would certainly be good to see a healing of wounds between the 
branches but that may never happen. The Tibetan Buddhists have 
fanned out all over the world and they are teaching, to thankfully 
many receptive ears. It is expected to take several generations of 
incubation for some really good practioners to manifest and perhaps 
some will sooner. Thankfully, the work of the Theosophical Movement 
broke the ground, planted the seeds, and prepared many minds in the 
west today for receptivity to the teachings of the Buddha Dharma. If 
we take the "Mission" of the movement, as a regard to the 
evolutionary development of the "Buddhi Manas" of mankind, then the 
transfer of the Tibetan teachings to the West is certainly in step 
with this plan.

When these teachings have matured then we may begin to see some 
important dialogues begin among Theosophists about the content of the 
Theosophical doctrines. If the doctrines do evolve, they must do so 
slowly over great lengths of time. My personal sense is that even on 
the side of these occult doctrines of Theosophy, there are other 
layers of occult teachings even more true that cannot be written 
because the writing would in fact obscure these truths. The 
transmission of these teachings must necessarily be by other means.

It was a delight for me to discover Point Loma and to learn about 
what had happened there. I am indebted to the Small family for 
sharing this fabulous history with me. It must have been quite a time 
growing up in a community of artists, writers, and great humanists 
like that. 

Kat, I too, thought that The Secret of the Abhor Valley, would make a 
wonderfully spiritual adventure story in movie media. Perhaps one day 
when the trees stop falling on you...

Blessings of health and happyness to all,
Sherab


From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 30 03:00:48 2000
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To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Uniting under the banner of Ahimsa:
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com


Thank you Sherab for your letter.

It may be that the concept of "Ahimsa" - "noninjury to all living 
things" could be a focus for us rather than the intellectual area... 
Even though there will be different opinions and histories, 
cultivating Ahimsa is such a basic and fundamental principle to 
Yoga, Sanatana Dharma, Jaina Dharma, Buddha Dharma, that it 
should be the basis for a universal movement.

>From Ahimsa comes advancement in spiritual life as well as a 
new civilization ...

In Christianity the concept is tu8rning the other cheek and 
returning good for evil, this is foundational in Buddhism. But 
since it is so often ignored and held in disrepute by many, it 
appears radical and innovative.

The early theosophists had as you know come from advanced 
groups of thinkers who sometimes even by today's standards 
would be considered radicals and revolutionaries. I believe it 
was Katherine Tingley who organized a march for world peace in 
San Diego engaging the Marine Corps band... Annie Besant 
was involved in the Indian independence movement ... reforms 
in prisons were encouraged by theosophists... We also have 
the Theosophical Order of Service.. And I think we should 
acknowledge the social experiments of our cousins the 
Anthroposophists!

But the basis of these things and what can unite us is the 
principle of Ahimsa.

- Art



--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Sherab Dorje"  
wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Thank you for your kind responses to my posting of "opinions" 
about 
> the Theosophical Movement. The measure was appreciated 
and in the 
> process I was led to feel like there is good company here.
> 
> It would certainly be good to see a healing of wounds between 
the 
> branches but that may never happen. The Tibetan Buddhists 
have 
> fanned out all over the world and they are teaching, to thankfully 
> many receptive ears. It is expected to take several generations 
of 
> incubation for some really good practioners to manifest and 
perhaps 
> some will sooner. Thankfully, the work of the Theosophical 
Movement 
> broke the ground, planted the seeds, and prepared many 
minds in the 
> west today for receptivity to the teachings of the Buddha 
Dharma. .....(etc.)

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Oct 30 03:15:20 2000
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Subject: There are many Ahimsa resources on-line.
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From: arthra999@yahoo.com

One of the best sources documents I've seen can be found at:

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/pamphlets/AhimsaNo
nViolence.html

Note particularly the citations from traditional scriptures as well 
as quotations from well known teachers.

- Art

_________________________________________________


From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Oct 30 04:47:22 2000
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From: Compiler 


In the past seven days this series of articles from
THEOSOPHY magazine has been finished:

Studies in "The Ocean of Theosophy" (36-part series)

And this series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine
has taken its place to be scanned, proofread, and posted
in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles
are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted
as they are done:

AFTERMATH (10-part series)

Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 16 articles
added in the past seven days were all added to the "Additional"
page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings
of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles
that are being worked on at all times.

All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories
geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and
philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more
experienced students at all levels -- including the very
scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand
and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being
for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with
much profound and informative Theosophical information
that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be
"Supplementary" reading and study material for participants
of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes
and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, here on theos-talk.

As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful.

Compiler
-------

The "Additional Categories of Articles" page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

The "Main Page":
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------



From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Mon Oct 30 09:08:09 2000
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To: 
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001029173948.009f0530@216.230.203.60>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Question about resources
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:16:40 -0800
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From: "Eugene Carpenter" 

Hi,

I thought the sections in the Biography of Blavatsky by Sylvia Cranston were
a wonderful introduction as to how theosophy as affected modern art.

About ten years ago the Los Angeles County Museusm of Art had a complete
showing devoted to this topic(concerning the visual arts) with Blavatsky's
pictures etc and works of Kandinsky and Mondarin(sp?) and actual
theosophical texts on display. Wow! What an event!

In modern dance, one of the pioneers was Ruth St. Denis who was devoted to
the hindu religious dance forms and performed her dance production called
Radha(?sp) all over the world in the early part of this century and then in
her early sixties danced the role in a movie version made in the forties.

I'm guessing that theosophy and high quality art may be the same phenomena!
It is the buddhic intuition that leads the artist in expressions from the
latent into the actual. Actualization from the Soul.
Expressions of Divine Wisdom.



Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eldon B Tucker" 
To: "Philip Trask" 
Cc: ; 
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 5:44 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Question about resources


> Shelley:
>
> I don't have any good suggestions at the moment, but
> someone on the mahat or theos-talk mailing lists might
> have some information, so I'll forward your message
> there.
>
> (If anyone on either list has some information, they
> should "cc:" a copy to you.)
>
>
> You can visit the lists at:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/group/theos-talk
> http://www.egroups.com/group/mahat
>
>
> -- Eldon Tucker
>
> At 06:41 PM 10/26/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >To Whom it may Concern:
> >
> >I am writing a paper on Theosophy and how it has affected Art and would
> >like some reliable sources for my references. As an unlearned student in
> >Theosophy, I am at a loss for a starting point. Any help you could offer
> >would be much appreciated. Please reply to the e-mail below. Thank you.
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Shelley Trask
> >bluefelt@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


From dalval@nwc.net Tue Oct 31 17:25:50 2000
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Subject: Oct 31 2000 HIGHER AND LOWER MIND
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:25:17 -0800
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From: Dallas Tenbroeck 



Oct 31 2000

Dear Peter

Let me try and answer with notes below.

My health is not steady and my left hand is still semi-paralyzed
but I am able to give brief answers

D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Bernin [mailto:bernin@algonet.se]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 8:36 AM
To: W. Dallas TenBroeck
Subject: Theosophical questions

Hello Dallas,
I hope everything is fine with you now and that you have more
time to write letters now...all the best to you
I write mainly to you for two reasons...
First have you heard anything from Careen about her trip here...I
asked her specifically to rapport to you...has she done that?

SHE HAS HOT ANSWERED TO ME, OR I WOULD HAVE SENT IT ON. YOU
WRITE HER AND REMIND HER.
Answers

A friend writes
1)....we had our SD-study this afternoon, mainly with regard to
what actually reincarnates, a topic that received some attention
at our Lodge....we are pretty sure that it is actually the
Manasic aspect of the moon-monads that reincarnates as opposed to
the popular belief among some that it is the Ego that
reincarnates - which is true in so far that the Ego's presence
within the personality constitutes our selfconscious awareness,
the l am l - but we will not experience the actual incarnation of
the Manasa-Putra until we have reached the 5th Round (if all goes
well!). We keep an open mind as always.

DTB
Read HPB's statements in KEY. The MONAD is the IMMORTAL -- it
NEVER DIES. The PERSONALITY consists of the SKANDHAS of our past
decisions which accumulate every life-time. Reincarnation, as
popularly described covers all the many aspects of our Individual
Monad (Atma-Buddhi) in its continuing efforts to adjust, life
after life, day after day the problems we created by immoral
choices and through selfishness and vice in our past. It is we
who are the POTENT CHOOSER (Manas) which has to grasp and force
the Lower elements (Lower Manas, Kama, Prana, Astral and Physical
skandhas) back into a devoted harmony with the DIVINE Monad
within each of us.
[ The word "Manasa-Putra" means the son of Mind -- it is the
incarnated mind, the Lower-Manas (or Manas enveloped in the folds
of delusion created by Kama (THE GREAT ILLUSION). The VOICE OF
THE SILENCE ought to be able to give much help in understanding
this. It deserves to be studied and mediated on, with a view to
securing the meanings there. [ "The (lower) Mind is the great
slayer of the Real (the Buddhi-Manas on this plane). Let the
Disciple (whose Buddhi-Manas is awakened) slay the slayer." The
"Disciple" is us. We through Theosophy become aware of the
unsolved problems that surround us, and now actually (as
skandhas) form a vital part of our "vehicles".]
Our problem is we have devoted so much time to the PERSONALITY
(Kama-Manas) that we have allowed it to RULE while we are/were in
incarnation. It has become strong -- and like a devilishly
inclined entity, it serves as a "DWELLER on the THRESHOLD." If
allowed to become firmly established in our lower consciousness,
it is that which denies easy access by our embodied consciousness
to penetrate at will to the Divine CONSCIOUSNESS of the Monad
(Atma-Buddhi-Manas) -- or what we would call BUDDHI-MANAS (the
Higher Mind).
If you read the speculations of modern psychology you will be
confused. Make sure that you read and grasp in NOTES ON THE
BHAGAVAD GITA what is written between pp. 98 to 100 on the ONE
CONSCIOUSNESS. That ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is always present even at
the time of greatest confusion, or deepest fear. It is the
MONAD, it is the "Disciple."
It is the LOWER MIND that forms a filter, or a distorted lens to
the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS when it attempts to operate on this plane.
For this reason the occultists call this Earth "HELL" -- it is
the region of vicious selfish and destructive thinking, moved by
the false concept of isolation and selfishness that comes only
from the inability of the LOWER MIND to perceive that at death it
CEASES TO BE (as an organized entity), and only the pure
efflorescence of the virtuous impulses and thoughts of this life
pass on to Devachan. All the rest is dispersed to the elements
and forms the Skandhas.
HPB says this plainly in the KEY in dealing with the after-death
consciousness of a "Materialist." We, almost all of us are such
"materialists" at present. A few dimly perceive that there is
something superior, better and stable, because it is based on the
PURE SPIRIT (that is Universal) only. Theosophy tries to arouse
this perception in us and prove the logic and the examples that
support such logic, so we through meditation may proceed to
develop a CERTAINTY in its propositions.
These Skandhas (which are really developing, incipient Monads
themselves) are NOT lost or destroyed, but, are merely scattered
at the time of physical death; and then, at the karmic time of
rebirth, the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS again attempts to heal by drawing
those disfigured and distorted elements of living matter
(Skandhas) together again, so as to help them to purify
themselves, IT HAS TO BE DONE VOLUNTARILY, BY GREAT MORAL and
ETHICAL EFFORT.
If you review the teachings of the priests in Christianity, you
will what harm is done to people from an early age in concealing
this truth from them, so that they do not realise that here in
our Earth, RIGID JUSTICE RULES everything. KARMA cannot be bent,
nor can our evil choices ever be totally concealed, or the
consequences thereof avoided. The problem that priests in any
religion create is the false idea that by prayer, penitence,
regret, (and paying them fees) our FALSE and FAULTY actions of
the past can be mitigated, erased, avoided. This is entirely
false and so it is that they hold out a totally unprovable hope
that "God will forgive and forget."
What about the victims? Who helps and redresses their pain and
suffering? In Justice, we are forced by KARMA to do this and
also heal the causes interior to us in our own vehicles that
allow us to do vicious things.
It takes a very strong moral nature to agree to the verities that
Theosophy exposes to us. Many like Theosophy, feel attracted to
it, even know it is true, but the fact is that they fear
discipline and when they know they cannot escape, they seek by
going elsewhere (not inside themselves) for some kind of solace
or palliation.


2) ....our second problem concerns the idea whether the second
fundamental [UNIVERSAL LAW -- KARMA] applies really to the whole
of the unmanifested Universe (notwithstanding the "Universe in
toto" definition by HPB!). There are other passages within the
theosophical doctrines that tend to go the other way, i.e. that
there is no such thing as a longest cycle but an incessant coming
and going eternally.

DTB
I would like to be shown any such statements of indefiniteness by
HPB. In studying her writings one really has to take the WHOLE
PHILOSOPHY into account. It is important to realise that
Theosophy is not invented nor is a creed set up to please some
sages or scientists.
It is a statement of facts in Nature. It is a record of all the
events of the past (by accessing the Akasic Records) It is also
experimental to the extent that each of its many students have to
prove to themselves and within their own CONSCIOUSNESS the
accuracy and veracity of those statements. So there is an
inter-relatedness and a consecutiveness to be found in
Theosophy -- a coherence and a cohesion which no other system
presents in such fullness.
But this is not given free to us to believe in. No! We have to
search, study and work, and then prove it to ourselves. Most
fall away from that effort, or go only part way. And as a result
they remain unsure, uncertain as to whether Theosophy sets out to
"fool" them as other faiths, beliefs and religions have done in
the past. So many want to have the results guaranteed to them,
without them having to do the work of guaranteeing those to
themselves by proving and testing them.
FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK A YEAR OR A CENTURY IS A L O N G TIME,
they look for the comfort of limitations. But think for a
moment: When was the first moment? What is the CAUSE ? Behind
the LOGOS is the proto-Logos -- the glimmering of ideas and
thoughts to be framed according to time and law. And before that
there is a blank as we cannot with our finite minds perceive
anything -- it is in fact unlimited, it is the ABSOLUTE
ABSOLUTENESS. IT IS.
Our finite minds (Kama-Manas) limit themselves in terms of both
past and future. This has to be dropped. It is of course futile
to get to any one finite CAUSELESS CAUSE, because, by definition,
this can never be discovered. Once we realise this, the question
of an infinity in time, either past or future, becomes
irrelevant. It does up no useful or practical good to spend time
in trying to define the indefinable.
Deep thought will lead you to perceive that there are only 3
things in our material Universe that cannot be eliminated from
any concept. These are (for me):
1.	I EXIST - as a center of consciousness and I cannot trace
either beginning or ending to my CONSCIOUSNESS. I AM. You may
eliminate everything else, but I AM THERE.
2.	THE UNIVERSE EXISTS -- in all its complexity around me. It
cannot be eliminated, IT IS THERE, in al its many parts and
entities, in terms of the past, present, and potential future --
and I AM ALSO THERE. This leads logically to the 3rd statement:
3.	THERE IS AN ON-GOING RELATIONSHIP between ME and this
UNIVERSE. It is inter-active, and follows definite LAWS. Those
laws cannot be neither bent or broken, even if we do not know
them thoroughly. The relationships extend in all directions,
from the most tenuous of thought-concepts to the grossest tools
and instruments that I can use to shape matter.
Now please consider what I say only as the result of my old
study -- it is entirely my own view. See if you find that
Theosophy also agrees with that.
Please let me have your reaction.

Well I would like to hear your comments and thoughts on these
topics...as I do not understand the concept "moon monad" for
example and much more in the letter...which, by the
way,....sounds to me that basic theosophy is lacking...what do
you make of it?

DTB
The term MOON-MONAD might be only a term used to indicate the
time (we -- Monads, as individuals and as a race) spent in
distant times in incarnation when the "Moon" was a living and
active body.
That was an earlier evolutionary period and the only evidence of
it is our dead planetary "moon" -- a kind of physical residue.
That time spent in evolving there, HPB says, was in developing
some of the mental and emotional tools needed in working in
matter and which we might call the lower aspects of our personal
consciousness (they may have been psychic, astral, lower-manasic,
etc...). So today that which we call our "Moon" is only the
corpse of our earlier habitat -- when as Monads we lived and
worked on it. It is very ancient. Take for example what HPB
teaches (SD Vol I 180 - 250) (The whole of SD Vol. 2), also, in
the INDEX look up what is offered on MONAD and the MOON.
We are today concerned with the opportunity of development that
our Earth, and our current incarnation, presents: We now have
under current development the identification of MANAS (thinking),
as separate and different from "FEELING (passion and desire)."
It is important to realise that we are neither the mind nor the
feeling nature. They are tools that are subordinate to our ONE
CONSCIOUSNESS. We perceive through them, and in turn they
reflect or alter what is perceived depending on the old impresses
that we have already placed in and on them (the Skandhas). If we
are able to maintain our integrity (AS THE ONE CONSCIOUSNESS) and
keep their influence separate, our perception becomes much
clearer. If we identify with them, then our perception is
colored by their impurities. The real problem for all disciples
is to learn how to maintain INTEGRITY, and become an OBSERVER,
instead of a slave-participant.
They two are entirely different. For one, you and I already know
(and others are beginning to also see it): the FEELINGS alone
cannot anticipate the results of their actions. You see this is
taken as true in the pure SCIENCE of psychology all the time and
in jurisprudence, the concept universally accepted is that man
has to "CONTROL HIMSELF, and his FEELINGS, PASSIONS,
EMOTIONS," -- How does he do this? [ We are confronted by some
schools of Psychology which teach that we ought not to resist our
emotions, nor control them. How far can such an attitude be a
true one? Why does the practical world reject such a view?
Is it not with the MIND and with the power of THOUGHT -- that is
superior to the realm of emotion and feeling? Are we not able to
anticipate the FUTURE in terms of experiences (memories and
analogies) of the PAST? (Anticipation and memory are both
aspects of our Mind-faculty and not resident or dependent on the
feelings.)
So this is why in these days we find that THOUGHT (Mind) and
FEELING (Kama) work so intimately together. It is a troublesome
and most difficult situation to be in, but an essential one, if
we are to learn how to control these tools and grow out of a
false perception of our condition -- in which we allow the
feelings, emotions and passions to guide and rule our lives. But
apparently we have to learn that it is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS
which controls the Mind, just as we say: "The Higher-Manas
controls the Lower-Manas." (Or it ought to.) So the warriors (or
foes) are in our own Mind. They are that which is wise and
universal vs. that which is isolationist and selfish. You will
find that Krishna teaches this secret to Arjuna in the BHAGAVAD
GITA as you go through it carefully. The HIGHER SELF (Monad -
Atma-Buddhi) is KRISHNA and He is seated in "the heart of all
beings." No exception, from the Atom to the Universe the
ABSOLUTE includes them all and gives them the freedom to grow and
to know each other fully. Have we understood this?
But look around you. One fact is inescapably clear: The whole
Universe, AND EVERY LIVING BEING IN IT, from ATOM to GALAXY, is
CO-OPERATIVE. Each offers the rest, those qualities that are
purely their own development, and it is those gifts that enable
others, and in fact the whole collection of living beings, to
proceed, to grow and to become self-consciously wise in the great
LAWS we call universal and individual KARMA.
When you eat food, or breathe you take in innumerable living
beings (dust, microbes, germs, etc...), and in turn, those give
up their independence to become a part of your physical life
nature and being and become impressed with your thoughts and
feelings while they are a part of you. We might say that the
transformation "kills" them, or that they achieve a wider
knowledge through the experiences we impress on them while they
are resident with us. In any case this is a matter of Karma, of
duty and of responsibility. For a time we become their "Father."
We are wiser, more experienced, and this we share with them, for
good or evil.
This is the era of MORAL development, and we are able to learn
the depths and importance of our motives through a deeper
perception of the EFFECTS of our choices. This seems to be the
mission of Theosophy for this period of its re-presentation.
We do however have a basis from which to evaluate Theosophy, its
psychological, ethical, and scientific impact on our world in the
space of the past 100 years, and especially in terms of time.
Theosophical literature has served to draw together into a
relatively few pages the essential, the "root" and
"foundational," the "key" records of the past:
1.	PSYCHOLOGY, abnormal events (astral, elementals, elementaries,
etc...) The mysterious power of the human desire and will, which
some individuals exhibit.
2.	HISTORY: Of ancient Races prior to the "flood" -- It traces
the coming and going of great invasions and movements of people,
some impelled by cataclysms of floods and volcanism, or other
causes. But all under KARMA, (Individual and collective).
3.	RELIGION. It has shown that every ancient religion or
philosophy and also the esoteric mysteries and creeds belong (in
spite of change of language and nomenclature) to a single system
which derives from METAPHYSICAL beginnings and the pathways of
evolution of MIND, FEELING, VITALITY, ASTRAL and PHYSICAL FORMS
are all interdependent. Man is in one way a three-fold being:
SPIRIT, MIND, and PHYSICAL BODY. In their inter-action these
three give rise to all the many phenomena of human life and
volition.
4.	SCIENCE: It has shown that the FACTS of SCIENCE are to be
trusted, [ BUT NOT THEIR SPECULATIVE THEORIES OR HYPOTHESES,
because those are found to be changed as time passes and fresh
evidence emerges]. In this regard Theosophy holds that the whole
Universe is pervaded by immortal beings (gods, monads, atoms,
molecules, "little-lives," angels, "skandhas." etc...) who
together, under immutable and never-changing laws work to produce
all the phenomena we see, sense and study. Every Human being is
a living single CONSCIOUSNESS, and it is immortal and cannot be
killed.
Consider in history that our MONADS (Egos) in an earlier
incarnation might have used bodies which in history we call the
Romans, or the ancient Greeks, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Franks,
Teutons, Goths, Vandals, Barbarians, Tatars, Kazaks, Persians,
Hindus, Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs, Polynesians, Tibetans, Chinese,
etc...
5.	MORAL RESPONSIBILITY and a knowledge of universally active
Karma is part of our present development.
6.	IMMORTAL and "MORTAL" We are able now to perceive the unitary
and persistent aspect of SPIRITUAL existence vs. the composite
one of many lower aspects of selfishness that are joined together
by karma to form our "vehicles" or "sheaths." We chose them, we
designed them, and now we are dependent on them for our existence
in this aspect of the "lower living." It is part of our
RESPONSIBILITY and DUTY to set these things into harmony again.
7.	SPIRITUAL SELF -- as the ABSOLUTENESS which is everywhere, and
which we cannot escape. This will be the most useful concept to
hold in mind as a principle which cannot be neglected when we
make our future decisions. Once this touches the Lower Mind it
begins to improve. Thus we begin to make a "Heaven" out of our
present "Hell." One of our problems is that we fancy this
hellish situation we live in to be a heaven -- or at least we try
to make it so, by elbowing others out of the area we desire to
call our own territory. Selfish? Isolationist? Of what value
to others and to the world is such an attitude?
We have to learn to see the difference between the ONE
CONSCIOUSNESS that is the IMMORTAL (timeless) ROOT of each one of
us (the EGO - ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) and the various Personalities
(which live for a brief time in the personalities of tribes and
races known to history) and, to which give today ethnic
derivations in terms of ancient names known to history of a
period from 1,000 to 10,000 years ago.
I hope this is of help.
Do let me know if there is anything you would like opened up
further so that I may try to do that. Most of the answers lie in
a correct assignment of meaning to the terms used. We have to
master the meanings of the 7 Principles and what their function
actually is. Both OCEAN and KEY are helpful in this.
D T B