From info@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Dec 01 11:32:27 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 1 Dec 2000 19:32:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 25389 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2000 19:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2000 19:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Dec 2000 19:32:08 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D12008FEAB5; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:17:43 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D150000FCA6@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:17:30 -0700 Subject: Theosophical History website has a new URL address on the WWW. Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" The Theosophical History website=20 by James A. Santucci has a new URL address on the WWW. Visit it at: http://www.theohistory.org/ --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 03 17:46:15 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 01:46:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 895 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 01:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 01:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 01:45:16 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D1201C4C4E3; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:38:54 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D15000107FF@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:38:53 -0700 Subject: 5 articles added to Blavatsky Archives Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Five more items have just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc (1) The Theosophists: Something About Madame Blavatsky, the High Priestess of the Society by Laura C. Holloway [Reprinted from The Leader, October 14, 1888, p. 14.] (2) Blavatsky's Mesmerism by Laura C. Holloway [Reprinted from Current Literature (New York) March 1889, pp. 243-244.] (3) Madame Blavatsky: A Pen Picture by An American Newspaper Writer [Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York) February 1912, pp. 262-269.] (4) The Mahatmas and Their Instruments [Part I] by L. C. L.[Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York), May 1912, pp. 69-76.] (5) The Mahatmas and Their Instruments [Part II] by L. C. L. [Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York), July 1912, pp. 200-206.] These articles will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Dec 04 02:50:10 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 10:50:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 15212 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 10:50:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 10:50:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ck.egroups.com) (10.1.2.83) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 11:51:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.27] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2000 10:50:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:50:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Concept of Mahatma Message-ID: <90fst0+gnvv@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <8vct31+7l0i@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6132 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.210 From: arthra999@yahoo.com A few weeks ago Daniel wrote asking if I was as skeptical about the claims of Yogananda about Babaji as I was about the theosophical Mahatmas. Daniel wrote: "For example, Aurobindo claimed he "saw" Koot Hoomi. Yogananda claimed > to be in contact with Babaji who appears as elusive as the > theosophical Masters. Are you equally skeptical of their claims? > Or what about Sai Baba and his paranormal claims? Do you also apply > the HEARSAY skeptical argument to those claims?" I wrote that I was just as skeptical...In Donald Walter's (Swami Kriyananda) wrote in his book "The Path" Chapter 20 that his Guru, Swami Yogananda said: "Babaji, Lahiri Mahasaya, and Sri Yukteswar," he announced, "were the three wise men who came to visit the Christ child in the manger. When Jesus was a grown man he returned their visit. The account of his trip to India was removed from the New Testament centuries later by sectarian followers, who feared its inclusion might lessen his stature in the eyes of the world." People can believe everything that Yogananda said, that's their affair, but such claims that Babaji was an incarnation of one of the three wise men along with the other personages such aas Lahiri Mahasaya and Sri Yukteswar stretch credulity to the "nth degree"... yes I am skeptical about these claims. Elsewhere Yogananda has Babaji as the Guru of Sri Shankaracharya and he says Christ is basically concerned with developments in the West while Babaji is involved with the Eastern parts of the Globe. Babaji is a good parallel I think as Daniel mentioned to such beings as Kuthoomi and company, although he doesn't send mysterious letters in desks or such... The problem with the claims for these type of personages and here I am speaking about Sai Baba who I referred to earlier as well as "Babaji" is that they arrogate to themselves such powers or people think of them with such powers that they lose all sense of proportion. Sai Baba apparently uses his power and position to exploit people if we are to believe the reports of several former Sai Baba devotees. When the claim is made that Babaji is an Avatar like Krishna, Christ, etc. and was also one of the three Wiseman, it casts a shadow on credulity and similar to the beliefs about the Masters in early Theosophical history puts the whole movement into disrepute with scholars and other sincere seekers. The movements founded by Sai Baba and Swami Yogananda have done some good things, but we need to be aware as theosophists that there are claims made which should be scrutinized rather carefully and rejected. Years ago, some friends of mine were attracted to the teachings of Yogananda and profited from them. They paid for weekly lessons to be sent to them to help them along in their spiritual path. I became skeptical about paying SRF (Self realization fellowship-Sami Yogananda's organization) for spiritual truth and later was fortunately drawn to the Ramakrishna Order which represented to me a more authentic represenattion of Hinduism as well as spirituality. The Ramakrishna Mission has no secret lessons that are sold to seekers. Everything is rather open for search and inquiry and has been for over a hundred years. - Arthur Gregory --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives " wrote: > > Art, > > I will briefly reply to your latest email addressed to Peter. > > You write to Peter: > > > I respectfully disagree with you regarding the existence of the > > "Mahatmas" and suggest as I have that they are figures largely > > influenced by the spiritualist movement and are lacking in > > credibility. > > Art, you certainly have every right to disagree with Peter and to > believe as you see fit. I think that is one thing that all of us > will agree on. > > But having said that, let me turn my attention to a few of your > statements that deal with the Masters of HPB. > > For example, you say the Mahatmas are figures that lack "credibility" > but exactly what you mean by that term is unclear to me. I can try > to guess what you might mean by that but it is fairly > imcomprehensible as to what you really mean. > > I assume also that you have no desire to give us any details which > would make your position understandable. > > Again, you seem quite reluctant to actually deal with the eyewitness > accounts of the Theosophical witnesses. You are short on any > specifics and instead make generalizations such as: > > > All that's been presented as to the existence of these > > :mahatmas" is hearsay and that by those who were rather > > believers themselves, so one would have to ask for an impartial > > witness or observer who would not be partial to the "proof'"... > > Hearsay??? I have no clear understanding or idea of what you really > mean by this. > > But are you also EQUALLY sceptical of ALL other witnesses who claim > to have observed or experienced psychic and/or spirtual > manifestations/experiences? There are many materialistic minded > skeptics of the paranormal and the spiritual who use your SAME > argument of HEARSAY to pooh-pooh the reality of any thing beyond the > physical. In other words, do you use your HEARSAY argument just on > the theosophical witnesses or do you apply it to all witnesses of > similar happenings? > > For example, Aurobindo claimed he "saw" Koot Hoomi. Yogananda claimed > to be in contact with Babaji who appears as elusive as the > theosophical Masters. Are you equally skeptical of their claims? > Or what about Sai Baba and his paranormal claims? Do you also apply > the HEARSAY skeptical argument to those claims? > > Art, believe or disbelieve as you see fit. But if you want to > communicate your views about HPB's Masters and feel that thoughtful > students of Theosophy might benefit from your views, you will have to > present more detailed explanations if you want us to understand your > position and the reasons why you have adopted that stance. > > The devil is in the details. > > Daniel From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 04 06:15:06 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 14:15:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 74453 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 14:14:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 14:14:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 14:14:19 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01348 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:24:36 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0174.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.174]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA25328; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:14:04 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:11:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-reply-to: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dec 4th 2000 RACISM -- our present concepts are usually limited to physical heredity. What about the Heredity of the EGO (/soul) ? Dallas offers: Refer to SD II 425 at end of page HPB states: "... reason given for dividing humanity into superior and inferior races falls to the ground and becomes a fallacy." The deathless reincarnating EGO (soul) uses successive bodies incarnation after incarnation (according to its Karma, which is harmonized with the Karma of all others concerned) in may races, and tribes and countries and continents over an immense period of years. The physical heredity of any incarnation merely provides the Karmic environment in which the Ego-Soul receives and generates the Karma that is its own, as well as that which it shares with others. We have to remember that our EGO-SOUL is an immortal and the succession of lives (reincarnation) is the process of evolution for it. IT (the SPIRITUAL-SOUL - Atma-Buddhi-Manas) - DOES NOT DIE when any one body dies. But no one has the right to terminate another's life under any circumstances. If this moral fact were grasped there would be no more murders or wars. It is ignorance and selfishness that generates such horrible and terrible conditions. Read THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY on this subject for detailed information. Best wishes, W. Dallas TenBroeck ========================================= -----Original Message----- From: M8452@aol.com [mailto:M8452@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 10:15 AM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and was rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair to label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this argument? --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 04 06:15:22 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 14:15:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 31810 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01580 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:25:27 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0174.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.174]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24933; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:13:53 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] The First Fundamental Proposition space - atman - reality - THE ONE Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:10:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-reply-to: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dec 4th., 2000 Dallas offers: This is most stimulating. Some older and perhaps fresh ideas emerge in my mind: As I see it, and in reading the SD, I seem to find: NOUGHT or ZERO = 0 = A Symbol for "non-manifestation" ONE = 1 = A Symbol for Universal manifestation TWO = 2 = DUALITY = a PAIR of OPPOSITES THREE = 3 = BALANCE = EQUIPOISE FOUR = 4 = PHYSICAL STABILITY TEN = 10 = PHYSICAL/SPIRITUAL COMPLETENESS (?) ========== NOUGHT -- ZERO = 0 In numbers it is the ever-indefinable NOUGHT or ZERO -- from which any differentiation serves to act as the CAUSE of DUALITY, and then: MULTIPLICITY -- which ancient symbology bases on THREE - Three - four. [ The "ALL" or "WHOLE" in MANIFESTATION totaling a 10 ( TEN or the "perfect" number in manifestation. 4 = material; 3 = spiritual; THREE indicating the Supernal and IMMUTABLE SPIRITUAL] [ But where and what is the CAUSE, or the FIRST CAUSE, or the CAUSELESS CAUSE ? ] ZERO to TEN 0 TO 10 Between the NOUGHT (ZERO) and the TEN (in manifestation) is a plane (perhaps a 'sphere' -- the true "Pass Not" -- a laya (layam) 'center' (or plane) which the finite cannot bridge except in abstract thought. DOES THE MIND DEPEND ON ENERGY or on MATTER ? For the "finite Mind" to make that bridge (as we all do from our stand in the limits of the present period of 'manifestation') in a conceptual way ( What if ? ), there logically has to be an immutable connection with the ABSOLUTE ALL -- the UNMANIFESTED. (Since EVERYTHING, whether in or out of manifestation IS, this "connection" persists and is indestructible. We also presume that the rules of LOGIC are infinite, timeless and immutable for any conclusion to be tolerable, or have a continuing value.) CAN ANYTHING BE KILLED ? It is a fallacy, therefore to think that if a "form" is destroyed (killed) that the THING IN ITSELF is DESTROYED. Only the present temporary form is dispersed. The Energy, the Power that served as a center to CREATE (by assemblage of the Skandhas (or aggregates, Monads, samskaras, elementals, etc...) a BEING (on any plane) cannot be destroyed as a KARMIC FORCE. It persists. Its persistence HPB declares transcends the time-space of a "Maha-Manvantara" -- a period of 311,040,000,000,000 years. ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADWAITA, article, "Theosophist, Jan, 1886" ] (SD II 68-70) VISIBLE and INVISIBLE -- WHICH IS FIRST ? We generally consider the "invisible" to be non-existent, unimportant, etc... There is however, a fact that cannot be eliminated: Nothing exists as a form or manifesting Power, or Energy, unless it is first formulated around an energic center on the invisible planes of DESIRE (need, necessity), mental formation by a MENTAL CREATIVE process (using mind-matter ?) then, the assembly of a lattice of life-force and an "ASTRAL PATTERN" (of electro-magnetic physical 'matter' -- see for instance "Kirillian Photography"), on which the physical molecules may assemble, each in its rightful place (How is a "rightful place" determined? Is this incident based on Karma and previous relations with these "building-blocks" of Nature ? How is a particular atom or sub-atomic particle 'chosen?" Is the "intelligence visible everywhere in the universe of great 'forms, also to be traced with accurate action in the universe of the very minute?' How can such diversity be monitored, adjusted, directed? Who does that kind of work? Finally: What is the GOAL of all this activity, of all these forms in action and life ? ) ONE ELEMENT -- SPACE -- ALL ? NOTHING ? SPACE is a word used in English (in this time frame) to indicate the volume any OBJECT occupies. SPACE persists even when the object "moves" away and occupies a different segment of "space." SPACE as an indefinite infinite, means simply ALL. To this, the metaphysician silently adds: "MANIFESTED SPACE, and mentally says: this "space" is infinite, indefinite, ceaseless, and of necessity is included in NON-MANIFESTED SPACE. NON-MANIFESTED ! IS IT NOTHING or SOMETHING ? NON-MANIFESTED SPACE (which includes some indefinite portion) also includes the WHOLE of MANIFESTED SPACE. MATTER -- WHERE? HOW ? WHERE DOES IT GO ? Our MATTER (Every theoretical physicist and chemist is well aware that the properties of any "matter' are theoretically derived from the constitution of its molecular and atomic (and sub-atomic structure -- such "structure" being purely a function of its electro-magnetic configuration) in its present form and manifestation., This condition (of 'form-encased' life) we are in (and in which all other 'forms;' are presumed also to be) seems to always tend to modify and "color" our mental, physical, and emotional concepts (to use HPB's definition -- SD I 181 -- of the triple evolutionary scheme that pervades NATURE ( Nature being another synonym for ALL -- without any definition. ) On that page I 181, she also says : "These three are the finite aspects or the reflection on the field of Cosmic Illusion of ATMA, the seventh, the one REALITY." ATMA, ATMANAM, ANATMA, SPIRIT, NO-THING, etc. are all words covering concepts of an indefinable INFINITE and ALL-PERVASIVE REALITY. Perhaps these ideas of one student will be of use to others. I would be glad to consider any and all further concepts and glad to receive any criticism, comments or adjustments. W. Dallas TenBroeck I-NET ADD: dalval14@earthlink.com ============================================= -----Original Message----- From: Moderator [mailto:nous@btinternet.com] Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 3:46 PM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] The First Fundamental Proposition THE SECRET DOCTRINE Friends, If you have any further thoughts on the moral implications of our study that really do relate to our recent focus in the SD ie the ONE ELEMENT, SPACE & so on, then you are welcome to add them. However, as interesting as a seperate study of Karma and Compassion might be, we will not be pursuing that thread any further, at least not at the moment. No doubt we will come back to it in the course of our study a number of times. We will now continue with our study of the PROEM and explore the FIRST FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITION. The passages in the SD that cover this run to nearly three pages, so only the first part will be posted here today. More will be added in the coming days. You might want to spend some time reflecting on the passage below, even if you do not have the time to write into the group. The first part of the First Proposition is below, between the "=======" signs. Comments and questions very welcome. We have already seen how different views invite us to understand in new ways and consider different perspectives. best wishes, Peter Merriott ====================== (a) An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought -- in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable." To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause -- dimly formulated in the "Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy -- is the rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be." It is of course devoid of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, Sat), and is beyond all thought or speculation. This "Be-ness" is symbolised in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. On the one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, the one thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, or conceive of by itself. On the other, absolute Abstract Motion representing Unconditioned Consciousness. Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable to us apart from change, and motion best symbolises change, its essential characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality, is also symbolised by the term "The Great Breath," a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE -- BE-NESS -- symbolised by finite intelligence as the theological Trinity. " (SD I 14) ========================== From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Dec 04 12:13:06 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 20:13:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 18288 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 20:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 20:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 21:14:10 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001204201304.EUVF10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org> for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:13:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2BFAD0.AB8CB1AC@wisdomworld.org> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:13:02 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: WisdomWorld: 2 Series of Articles Finished--2 Begun Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler 21 more articles have been added to Wisdom World in the past fourteen days, along with a "Search Engine" for the entire web site (which is found in the "Additional Categories of Articles" INDEX page: at the bottom of the list of links for on-line Theosophical books). These series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine have now been finished: Antiquity of Man (8-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AntiquityOfMan-Series/index.html The Races of Man (6-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheRacesOfMan-Series/index.html And these series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine have taken their place to be scanned, proofread, and posted in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted as they are done: Figures of the Transition Age (12-part series): (These are now being scanned.) Theosophists Unaware (14-part series): (These are now being scanned.) Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 21 articles added in the past fourteen days were all added to the "Additional" page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles that are being worked on at all times. All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more experienced students at all levels -- including the very scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with much profound and informative Theosophical information that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be "Supplementary" reading and study material for participants of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, here on theos-talk. As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful. Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- The "Additional Categories of Articles" page: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html The "Main Page": http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 04 17:29:30 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 01:29:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 29338 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 01:29:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 01:29:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 02:30:33 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01518 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:39:44 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool1181.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.248.161]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27948; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:29:04 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:26:04 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-reply-to: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dec 4th 2000 Dear friend/s: I agree that in no way the exponent of a philosophy which is based on UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD can in any way be considered a narrow and bigoted racist. THEOSOPHY does NOT advocate physical heredity as a basis for "racial purity." It demands the highest ethical standards based on fairness, justice, and above all SERVICE to the weakest among us but the "STRONGEST." It asserts that no SPIRITUAL EGO (which forms the basis for any person, anywhere, and at any time or era) can be considered superior to or inferior to another. [SD II 425, bottom of the page refers to this position.] THEOSOPHY is not a philosophy of BULLIES, but of devoted donors who sacrifice all they have for the sake of those who are weaker and need more than they do. It is considered an honor for the "STRONG" to make their strength available as a free service to the weakest among us. Do we not instinctively honor those who present in their lives such a devotion? Are not virtues and ideals instinctively honored? If so, why? Why do thieves and murderers pretend to be honest and protectors of the "the Law?" How many great men and women are remembered? Compare that with the roster of BULLIES who have despoiled the multitudes and devastated the country-sides! HPB is most careful to explain that the special use of the word "RACE" is entirely different from the way in which the word is ordinarily used. If anything it also indicates a division of time during which evolution takes another series of steps with the help of all those involved in a specific area and condition. If anything it might be said that a group of Egos with similar broad PERSONAL characteristics are drawn by their individual KARMA to incarnate together. A "race" arises, lives for a few centuries and when the need for that kind of a personal environment changes, the quality of the Egos that incarnate also changes and the "race: may then decline and eventually disappear. Theosophy indicates there are SEVEN broad groupings (in terms of character and quality of development. They are not superior or inferior to one-another, only different in outlook. To use an example already 5,000 years old: In the BHAGAVAD GITA, Krishna speaks to Arjuna of the THREE divisions (GUNAS) of the Universe; which, when combined, make up 6 pairs, and in the (neutral) center, alone stands Krishna/Vishnu (the PRESERVER) as the synthesis of those 6 + 3 = 9. Or: 6 + 1 = 7 + 3 primaries = 10 (the perfect NUMBER in manifestation). SATTVA (Spirituality, Righteousness, Idealism) is opposed by RAJAS (Desire, Vice, Selfishness, Activity) and TAMAS (Inertia, laziness, carelessness, selfishness). This gives rise to Sattva-Rajas, and Sattva-Tamas. Similarly for the other two, two other "pairs" are generated. We thus have 3 primaries and 6 secondaries = 9 in total. Add Krishna at the Center = 10 (the perfect number). A wonderful amalgamation of diverse ethnic groups drawn from all over the world is in the process of development today in this, our modern era; first in the Americas, and now spreading to Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and other countries and islands as travel has made un-traditional families possible, and as work or leisure makes travel easier and wider for various reasons. The Nazi, Hitlerian type of racism (or any such narrow concept) is found to be directly opposed to the THEOSOPHICAL view of an enormous "host" of immortal and Eternal Pilgrims traversing the world in the pursuit of their individual and joint perfection. If each incarnation is considered a "day in school," then the "graduation" at the end of the 'Course" brings a complete knowledge of all the laws and qualities of matter which have been sampled, observed, dealt with, manipulated , etc... by each immortal "Pupil" each in his or her turn. It is UNITY that is important and not the ISOLATION of selfish UNITS. Nature works by COOPERATION, and the seeming competition we observe around us, is only a mal-application. From that torture, death and delay in the great program has occurred. These are of course only my own thoughts on the subject, based on such Theosophical principles as can be found in the original literature of the founders of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, such as H. P. Blavatsky, who wrote THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The whole of the philosophy has to be considered, not selected portions. Best wishes, W. Dallas TenBroeck =============================================== -----Original Message----- From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 2:05 PM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work, and in all of her writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in any way, shape, or form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood" is the rock-solid foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the eternal THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took ideas from Theosophy and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own racist ways, in no way should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion and contention that if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way, it would have been to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was thinking about humanity, and to change directions. Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- M8452@aol.com wrote: > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and was > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair to > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this > argument? > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [compiler@wisdomworld.org] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Dec 04 23:56:18 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 07:56:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 33121 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 07:56:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 07:56:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch.egroups.com) (10.1.10.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 07:56:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.59] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2000 07:56:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 07:56:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Message-ID: <90i72t+4qvk@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9475 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.182 From: arthra999@yahoo.com Looking at theosophy as a historical movement in the past say hundred and fifty years... there were probably those who also had colonialist ideas as well as those who believed in the superiority of european civilization over Asian cultures... In India many of the elete were educated in Oxford and led in the beginning to believe in the superiority of western european civilization. With the world wars however and movements like communism and fascism it became apparent that western civilization had no corner on humanism or enlightenment, hence the rekindling of interest in Buddhism and Hinduism, etc. Theosophists in India were prominant in their sympathy for Buddhism and later the independence of India. That fascism and in particular Nazism had an interest in esoteric (likely due to an interest in German cultural heroes like Siegfried, Parzifal, etc.) as well as astrology ideas must be appreciated in the context of the times.. Racism was widespread not only in Germany but in practise in the United States as well... The belief in the superiority of the Aryan race was a product of nineteenth century scholarship .... Examples could be cited in esoteric literature of a concept that some races were more "developed" or had a more determining role in various ages... So what we have is a movement simply reflecting the times. Other aspects of theosophy seemed progressive in some ways, such as the promotion of Peace movement by Katherine Tingley or prison reform and basic welfare of starving people. Recall that Tingley was serving people in soup lines when she was observed by WQ Judge. I think in some ways the Theosophic movement has lost some of it's social equalitarian ideals of a hundred years ago or at least no longer is on the cutting edge shall we say ... Yet some Anthroposophists continue social and educational experiments. I think there are also movements outside the traditional theosophical movement that show very promising directions in progressive social experimentation. To me movements that practise nonviolent ways to achieve social egalitarianism are few but significant. One such movement was prominant in India in the fifties led by a protege of Mahatma Gandhi Vinoba Bhave which involved the peaceful and voluntary redistribution of millions of acres of land to landless peasants. Vinoba also secured the disarmament of more than one band of guirillas fighting in Kashmir in the fifties... The Jain Anuvrata movement in India is also a movement attempting to achieve ideal social relationships based on nonviolent philosophy. The issue of polluting nations verses the rest of the world is another great question that has momentous consequences and I think can be best addressed with the philosophy of nonviolence or Ahimsa. - Art --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, dalval14@e... wrote: > Dec 4th 2000 > > Dear friend/s: > > I agree that in no way the exponent of a philosophy which is > based on UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD can in any way be considered a > narrow and bigoted racist. > > THEOSOPHY does NOT advocate physical heredity as a basis for > "racial purity." It demands the highest ethical standards based > on fairness, justice, and above all SERVICE to the weakest among > us but the "STRONGEST." It asserts that no SPIRITUAL EGO (which > forms the basis for any person, anywhere, and at any time or era) > can be considered superior to or inferior to another. [SD II 425, > bottom of the page refers to this position.] > > THEOSOPHY is not a philosophy of BULLIES, but of devoted donors > who sacrifice all they have for the sake of those who are weaker > and need more than they do. It is considered an honor for the > "STRONG" to make their strength available as a free service to > the weakest among us. > > Do we not instinctively honor those who present in their lives > such a devotion? Are not virtues and ideals instinctively > honored? If so, why? Why do thieves and murderers pretend to be > honest and protectors of the "the Law?" How many great men and > women are remembered? Compare that with the roster of BULLIES > who have despoiled the multitudes and devastated the > country-sides! > > HPB is most careful to explain that the special use of the word > "RACE" is entirely different from the way in which the word is > ordinarily used. If anything it also indicates a division of > time during which evolution takes another series of steps with > the help of all those involved in a specific area and condition. > > If anything it might be said that a group of Egos with similar > broad PERSONAL characteristics are drawn by their individual > KARMA to incarnate together. A "race" arises, lives for a few > centuries and when the need for that kind of a personal > environment changes, the quality of the Egos that incarnate also > changes and the "race: may then decline and eventually disappear. > > Theosophy indicates there are SEVEN broad groupings (in terms of > character and quality of development. They are not superior or > inferior to one-another, only different in outlook. To use an > example already 5,000 years old: In the BHAGAVAD GITA, Krishna > speaks to Arjuna of the THREE divisions (GUNAS) of the Universe; > which, when combined, make up 6 pairs, and in the (neutral) > center, alone stands Krishna/Vishnu (the PRESERVER) as the > synthesis of those 6 + 3 = 9. Or: > 6 + 1 = 7 + 3 primaries = 10 (the perfect NUMBER in > manifestation). > > SATTVA (Spirituality, Righteousness, Idealism) is opposed by > RAJAS (Desire, Vice, Selfishness, Activity) and TAMAS (Inertia, > laziness, carelessness, selfishness). This gives rise to > Sattva-Rajas, and Sattva-Tamas. Similarly for the other two, two > other "pairs" are generated. We thus have 3 primaries and 6 > secondaries = 9 in total. Add Krishna at the Center = 10 (the > perfect number). > > A wonderful amalgamation of diverse ethnic groups drawn from all > over the world is in the process of development today in this, > our modern era; first in the Americas, and now spreading to > Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and other countries and islands > as travel has made un-traditional families possible, and as work > or leisure makes travel easier and wider for various reasons. > > The Nazi, Hitlerian type of racism (or any such narrow concept) > is found to be directly opposed to the THEOSOPHICAL view of an > enormous "host" of immortal and Eternal Pilgrims traversing the > world in the pursuit of their individual and joint perfection. > > If each incarnation is considered a "day in school," then the > "graduation" at the end of the 'Course" brings a complete > knowledge of all the laws and qualities of matter which have been > sampled, observed, dealt with, manipulated , etc... by each > immortal "Pupil" each in his or her turn. > > It is UNITY that is important and not the ISOLATION of selfish > UNITS. Nature works by COOPERATION, and the seeming competition > we observe around us, is only a mal-application. From that > torture, death and delay in the great program has occurred. > > These are of course only my own thoughts on the subject, based on > such Theosophical principles as can be found in the original > literature of the founders of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, such as > H. P. Blavatsky, who wrote THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The whole of the > philosophy has to be considered, not selected portions. > > Best wishes, > > > > W. Dallas TenBroeck > > =============================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@w...] > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 2:05 PM > To: basic@b... > Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism > > There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work, > and in all of her > writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in any > way, shape, or > form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood" is > the rock-solid > foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the > eternal THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took ideas > from Theosophy > and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own racist > ways, in no way > should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion and > contention that > if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way, it > would have been > to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was > thinking about > humanity, and to change directions. > > Compiler > (John DeSantis) > ------- > > M8452@a... wrote: > > > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of > Nazism" and was > > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically > racist. I read > > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. > Is it fair to > > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here > refute this > > argument? > > > > --- > > Current topic is at > > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: > [compiler@w...] > > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > leave-bn-basic-6640831O@l... > > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: > [dalval14@e...] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > leave-bn-basic-6640831O@l... From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Dec 05 08:34:52 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 16:34:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 74990 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 16:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 16:34:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 17:35:55 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (magic1.co.la.ca.us [159.83.181.42]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12427 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:45:05 -0600 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA05695; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA05690; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:34:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007c01c05eda$13902870$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: "Esoteric Science" , Cc: Subject: Consciousness/Unconsciousness Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:39:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0079_01C05E96.E1316530" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C05E96.E1316530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Big question: What is the difference between 1 and 0?(same as between 10 a= nd 0) Using set notation and praying for clarity: zero or ( ) one or ( ( ) ) zero is the empty set but is no longer the empty set as soon as it just pas= ses beginning to contain the empty set. Let ( ) represent Unconsciousness(Total Unconditioned Consciousness. Then ( ( ) ) would represent Consciousness. Unconsciousness would would= no longer be Unconscious just after the beginning of becoming aware of Unc= onsciousness. What would be the symbol of the dawn of this differentiation? Perhaps: ( . ) =20=20=20 1. Unconsciousness 2. Consciousness of Unconsciousness 3. Consciousness of the balance point of these two wherein Unconsciousness = is beginning to become Conscious of Unconsciousness=20 or 1. Unconsciousness 2. Consciousness 3. Consciousness of Unconscious and Consciouness( at the point of balance b= etween the two) or, back into set notation: 1. ( ) 2. ( ( ) ) 3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) And using theosophical symbols, hoping they mean the same: 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( . ) Folly or a very interesting meditation excercise?(or perhaps something inbe= tween?) Gene ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C05E96.E1316530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Big question:  What is the difference= between=20 1 and 0?(same as between 10 and 0)
 
Using set notation and praying for=20 clarity:
 
zero or =20 (        )
 
one or (  (  )  )
 
 
zero is the empty set but is no longer the= empty=20 set as soon as it just passes beginning to contain the empty=20 set.
 
Let (       = )=20 represent Unconsciousness(Total Unconditioned Consciousness.
 
Then ( (    ) ) would repre= sent=20 Consciousness.  Unconsciousness would would no longer be Unconscious j= ust=20 after the beginning of becoming aware of Unconsciousness.
 
What would be the symbol of the dawn of th= is=20 differentiation?
 
Perhaps:    (  . = =20 )
 
 
 
  
 
1. Unconsciousness
 
 
2. Consciousness of Unconsciousness=
 
 
3. Consciousness of the balance point of t= hese two=20 wherein Unconsciousness is beginning to become Conscious of Unconsciousness= =20
 
 
or
 
 
1. Unconsciousness
 
2. Consciousness
 
3. Consciousness of Unconscious and Consci= ouness(=20 at the point of balance between the two)
 
or, back into set notation:
 
 
1.=20 (            &n= bsp;=20 )
 
2. (     (  =  =20 )     )
 
3. (    (   ), (&= nbsp;=20 (  )  )   )
 
 
And using theosophical symbols, hoping the= y mean=20 the same:
 
 
1.
 
2. (      )
 
3. (  .  )
 
 
 
Folly or a very interesting meditation=20 excercise?(or perhaps something inbetween?)
 
 
 
Gene
------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C05E96.E1316530-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 05 10:24:48 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 18:24:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 10202 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 18:24:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 18:24:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 18:24:47 -0000 Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07284 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:35:02 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0717.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.207]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05470; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:20:44 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-B-Basic" Subject: RACISM & the SD Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:17:48 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 5, 2000 Is "Racism" an error ? If so, how and why ? Dallas offers: How is it possible for an immortal Monad which is ever incarnating in many races and places pay particular attention to the limited physical heredity of a single incarnation? As I learn from Theosophy, it teaches: We (as the MONAD) ever progressing towards independent divinity, have to prove we have no SELFISH BIAS., As it stands, Theosophy appears to teach that we are responsible for the training of innumerable MONADS of lesser experience which we have contacted, influenced or used in prior incarnations. There is no limit in time to these links, hence one may say that our own trail of Karma is infinite in depth, just as it extends infinitely forward. Our present environment is the result of past choices. Our future will depend on all the choices we will be making now and hereafter. This is the way Karma works. These MONADS that now and in future will accrue to us, and will form our "sheaths," or the "Personality," are called SKANDHAS or "attributes," or "aggregates," etc... They carry our KARMA with them. They also are our Karmic links with the whole of Nature IN A SHORT WAY OF SAYING IT, WE HAVE TO MAKE OUR PEACE WITH NATURE, and with all those Skandhas. Then only when the past is settled, harmonized, purified, can we "go forward." So that takes care of any "racism." Dal W. Dallas TenBroeck ========================================== From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 05 12:10:30 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 20:10:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 923 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 20:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 20:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 20:10:27 -0000 Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01064 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:20:41 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0087.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.87]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21013; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:07:07 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] RE: racists ARE THERE ANY CRITERIA WE CAN FIND AND USE ? Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:03:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 5, 2000 RACISM: Are there any reliable criteria available for us to use? Dear Friend: UNIVERSALISM vs, SECTARIANISM If one accepts a "label" then one ceases to be universalist, and becomes to some extent sectarian. No one ever entirely fits under a "label." Each has enough individuality to "stick out" in some ways. To allow one's self to be "labeled" is not a very good idea, nor is it true insofar as accuracy is concerned. WHAT IS THEOSOPHY ? As I understand it, Theosophy tries to show us universal laws and the history of their action specifically in regard to CONSCIOUSNESS. By "consciousness" I mean the sense of "I-am-I" that each being has to some degree. Theosophy is a review not only of the history of the development of all beings in a well-arranged Universe -- one where LAWS appear to operate with persistence and regularity -- but it also defines those LAWS, starting with the most basic and universal -- then traces their operation down to the individual and most minute component of its area of work and existence. It does not have any conflict with the actual laws of nature that all departments of Science report on. FACTS vs. HYPOTHESES and THEORIES It does however have differences of opinion in regard to the theories and hypotheses that Science advances, as its basis for such vision is far more ancient and broader than our modern Science (hardly 300 years old) has been able to develop with accuracy. We find scientific theories and hypotheses being altered day by day as new data emerges. Theosophy does not alter its views or statements. It is a portion of the continuing record made by the wise men of our world down the ages, and to which more is being added even as we write. Knowledge and wisdom are not the 'property' of anyone, but are the common inheritance of all. TERMINOLOGY In Theosophy the word MONAD is used to indicate a center of life in which the first sense of "I-am-I" is to be found -- to us it would be classified as "sub-atomic." PERFECTION of KNOWLEDGE as a "GOAL" Theosophy claims there is an unbroken continuity of evolution from that stage, through that stage of life that is called for the moment "humanity." This proceeds, unbroken, to an ultimate "goal" which can only (indefinitely) be termed "PERFECTION." This is said to include a complete knowledge and ability to access all that can be known about the manifested universe. Since in Theosophy we are dealing with intangibles and infinites, it is difficult to pin down any specific attribute (such as the time and race-limited kind) that would fit a "racist." MONAD -- an ETERNAL BEING OF LIFE -- BUILDING-BLOCKS of the UNIVERSE Each MONAD (a part of the WHOLE) is indestructible, eternal in existence and function, and infinite in the scope of its effects on other MONADS -- of which the whole UNIVERSE is composed. I therefore maintain that any limited attribute or appellation such as "racist" cannot be imposed on the original teachings of Theosophy, which do not deal with such false and temporary concepts. RACISM vs UNIVERSAL PROGRESS and the RIGHT TO LIVE For example, a certain kind of human character makes "racism" possible. [ Possibly it is characterized by ignorance, from which arise: fear and uncertainty.] In any era it (racism) may title itself with the name of some local person or cult. In time the "name" disappears, but the IDEA of racism (in some form, social, religious, racial, etc...) persists. Has this any real validity? How long can such a concept persist? If one considers the waves of history and their many records, one finds that such things arise and then subside and there is little coherence in them. This trends towards isolation and the formation of a sect, cult, religion or political party, rather than expand towards an IDEAL that all could adopt because of its evident excellence. IDEALISM and REALITY In contrast idealism is found to always persist and it seems to have a continuous attraction in the affections of cultured humans. It does not focus on any particular person or era, but recognizes excellence in any time/space frame. It tends to universalize and deal in excellencies. It is broad, generous, charitable and in a grand way, we could apply the word "virtuous" to the emotions it commands response from. But, possibly, I have not understood you. Dallas W. Dallas TenBroeck ============================================== -----Original Message----- >From: Valters Grivins [mailto:walters@latnet.lv] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:32 AM To: basic@blavatsky.net >Subject: [bn-basic] RE: racists and so on Friends, I suppose many of those involved in this discussion do not think other than secular humanists "humanrightists" enhanced democrats, etc. Indeed the same notion of "racism" is a product of our days, a product of society going to it's destruction. Who can say - who and when canceled the Laws of Nature, the Law of Hierarcy at first? If not why we speak about this theme in the manner we see here. HPB is a "racist" exatly in the same range Nature, Dhiani are "racists". If there would not be differences among subjects of Universe it would not exist, would it? Anti-racists wants cancel colors in world. They want everybody under decadent coca-cola uni"culture" with modern slaves binded with stupidity. Equality in understanding of "primordial" theosophy means equality in chances to develop itself from certain point the person is, not that all are equal in their abilities and qualities. Or there is not a reason who drives a car - profesional with licence and skills or first time driver? sincerely Valters Grivins, Latvia -----Original Message----- >From: BN-basic digest [mailto:bn-basic@lists.lyris.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:01 AM To: bn-basic digest recipients >Subject: bn-basic digest: December 04, 2000 BN-BASIC Digest for Monday, December 04, 2000. 1. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 2. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 3. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 4. 5 articles added to Blavatsky Archives 5. Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000] 6. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 7. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 8. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 9. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism 10. Re: bn-basic digest: December 03, 2000 11. WisdomWorld: 2 Series of Articles Finished--2 Begun ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: Compiler >Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 17:04:45 -0500 >X-Message-Number: 1 There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work, and in all of her writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in any way, shape, or form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood" is the rock-solid foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the eternal THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took ideas from Theosophy and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own racist ways, in no way should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion and contention that if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way, it would have been to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was thinking about humanity, and to change directions. Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- M8452@aol.com wrote: > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and was > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair to > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this > argument? > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [compiler@wisdomworld.org] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: Nancy Gail Milligan >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:57:28 -0800 (PST) >X-Message-Number: 2 I am so glad to see someone ask this question, as I would like to see this issue addressed as well. A friend of mine read SD, but was unable to accept the teachings because of what she called its racist language. I was unable to address her problems because I was only half way through the first volume. I am now halfway through the second volume, and I have seen a few items that I found questionable, but feel that I must finish it before I can take a position on it. I would love to see people who know more about the subject explain these problems. ~~~ Gail __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: "Peter Merriott" >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:00:38 -0000 >X-Message-Number: 3 Dear ???, Why not put forward some views that substantiate those claims so that people know exactly what it is you expect them to refute. Also, you might consider taking some responsibility for introducing the topic by showing how you have tried to answer this question for yourself. What is the evidence 'for and against' such a claim? What have you found in the Secret Doctrine that has helped you explore and try to answer this question? ..Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: M8452@aol.com [mailto:M8452@aol.com] > Sent: 03 December 2000 18:15 > To: basic@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism > > > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of > Nazism" and was > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically > racist. I read > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. > Is it fair to > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here > refute this > argument? ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: 5 articles added to Blavatsky Archives >From: "Blavatsky Archives" >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:38:53 -0700 >X-Message-Number: 4 Five more items have just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc (1) The Theosophists: Something About Madame Blavatsky, the High Priestess of the Society by Laura C. Holloway [Reprinted from The Leader, October 14, 1888, p. 14.] (2) Blavatsky's Mesmerism by Laura C. Holloway [Reprinted from Current Literature (New York) March 1889, pp. 243-244.] (3) Madame Blavatsky: A Pen Picture by An American Newspaper Writer [Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York) February 1912, pp. 262-269.] (4) The Mahatmas and Their Instruments [Part I] by L. C. L.[Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York), May 1912, pp. 69-76.] (5) The Mahatmas and Their Instruments [Part II] by L. C. L. [Laura C. Holloway] [Reprinted from The Word (New York), July 1912, pp. 200-206.] These articles will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000] >From: "Christian L" >Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 22:11:12 -0800 >X-Message-Number: 5 Adelasie, I respectfully disagree with your comment below. If fact, I believe Theosophy offers very explicit instructions. Only Theosophy's aim is not to develop the "hidden powers latent in man", in and of itself. And it may take lifetimes. Several lifetimes. When one goes outside on a starry night and can witness the light from a star that started its journey billion of years ago, a fifty year lifetime here and a sixty eight year lifetime there really doesn't seem that long. Christian ----Original Message Follows---- >From: "adelasie" Reply-To: basic@blavatsky.net To: basic@blavatsky.net >Subject: [bn-basic] Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000] >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 21:30:58 -0800 Dear Mike, It's true, as you say, that Theosophy doesn't offer any explicit instructions on how to develop the "hidden powers latent in man." .... Adelasie On 2 Dec 00, at 10:39, farmageddon@usa.net wrote: > Hello. > > I ask you to recall one of the main original purposes of the > theosophical movement: to investigate the hidden powers latent within > man. Theosophy does not help with this. All the information is about, > not how to. > > --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [buzzdcl@hotmail.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net _________________________________________________________________ ___________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: "Nick Weeks" >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:04:24 -0800 >X-Message-Number: 6 >From: > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and was > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair to > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this > argument? How did the authors define "racism"? How do you define it? Best, Nicholas ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: M8452@aol.com >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:50:27 EST >X-Message-Number: 7 Sorry folks, <> Its supposed to be: <> Sorry about that ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: M8452@aol.com >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:44:51 EST >X-Message-Number: 8 <> Yes I have tried and I'm not sure if the SD is racist. Thats precisely why I introduced the topic. Never did I say it was or wasn't racist. I'm trying to stay objective here, and thats why I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Nor did I say HPB was racist. By the way in both books the authors write that theosophists get uneasy and when this subject comes up. I could see that happening in this e-mail room. How about just answering my question and not taking such a defensive stance. I wasn't accusing anyone (theosophists) or anything (Secret Doctrine) of being racist. I just want your side off the story. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism >From: Compiler >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:55:09 -0500 >X-Message-Number: 9 To add a few more thoughts to consider, hoping for those more knowledgeable about this subject of "racism" to comment on, about Theosophy being presented via HPB and "The Secret Doctrine", and in all of her writings, in my study of the teachings I find that it is said, over and over again, in numerous ways, in many places, that we are ALL re-incarnating and going through all of the "races" over and over again (thinking of "races" in all ways, such as, for example, the entire race of humanity, worldwide; a particular Family race, in one part of the world during its cycle of about 30,000 years, while others are in their cycles in other parts of the world; down to the different colors of skins we enter into, and so on). With this being the process for us eternal pilgrims (spiritual beings, thinking souls) in gaining experience, overall, in general, and these physical races all having, according to the Teaching, their rises and falls and their periods of wisdom, ignorance and degenerating, we have to be each more understanding and thick-skinned, so to say, of these facts so that when HPB and Theosophy explain the simple TRUTH and REALITY about where any particular race or nation or people or culture stands in the never-ending process, at any particular time -- whether present, past, and future, based on cycles that have been, are, and are to come, we are not offended ourselves if we happen to be in one, or if others are and/or were. If this is what is actually endlessly going on in the cosmic process everywhere, as well as on our own planet, we would be foolish not to straightout be told about it and be mistakenly offended each time it is spoken of in some way in the teaching, as HPB had to. I hope this helps a little in our thinking and talking about this subject of "Races" and "Racism" and Theosophy and HPB. Where I am dead wrong in my above comments, I hope it will be pointed out and explained more wisely. Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- Compiler wrote: > There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work, and in all of her > writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in any way, shape, or > form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood" is the rock-solid > foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the eternal THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took ideas from Theosophy > and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own racist ways, in no way > should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion and contention that > if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way, it would have been > to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was thinking about > humanity, and to change directions. > > Compiler > (John DeSantis) > ------- > > M8452@aol.com wrote: > > > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and was > > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read > > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair to > > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this > > argument? > > > > --- > > Current topic is at > > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [compiler@wisdomworld.org] > > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [compiler@wisdomworld.org] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: Re: bn-basic digest: December 03, 2000 >From: Celynmarn@aol.com >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:23:52 EST >X-Message-Number: 10 --part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/00 4:00:28 AM Atlantic Standard Time, bn-basic@lists.lyris.net writes: > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and > was > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist. I read > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same. Is it fair > to > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here refute this > argument? I too have read about the racists being influenced by Blavatsky and others involved in the Esoteric Wisdom. Remember, we are all different and will receive the information differently, and depending upon intent, will use it differently. Hitler was Hitler and used it in a Hitlerisk fashion. Perhaps this is one of the reasons they kept the Wisdom secret so that people like Hitler could not use it to destroy. The Universal Wisdom is about love and inclusiveness - Truth. Use it for the highest and the best. Blessings, Cely --part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/00 4:00:28 AM Atlantic Standard Time,
bn-basic@lists.lyris.net writes:


I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and
was
rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically racist.  I read
Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same.  Is it fair
to
label theosophy and the SD as racist?  How would everyone here refute this
argument?
I too have read about the racists being influenced by Blavatsky and others
involved in the Esoteric Wisdom.  Remember, we are all different and will
receive the information differently, and depending upon intent, will use it
differently.  Hitler was Hitler and used it in a Hitlerisk fashion.  Perhaps
this is one of the reasons they kept the Wisdom secret so that people like
Hitler could not use it to destroy.

The Universal Wisdom is about love and inclusiveness - Truth.  Use it for the
highest and the best.

Blessings,
Cely

---
Current topic is at
http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm
You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [dalval14@earthlink.com]
To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net --part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >Subject: WisdomWorld: 2 Series of Articles Finished--2 Begun >From: Compiler >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:15:01 -0500 >X-Message-Number: 11 21 more articles have been added to Wisdom World in the past fourteen days, along with a "Search Engine" for the entire web site (which is found in the "Additional Categories of Articles" INDEX page: at the bottom of the list of links for on-line Theosophical books). These series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine have now been finished: Antiquity of Man (8-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AntiquityOfMan-Series/index .html The Races of Man (6-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheRacesOfMan-Series/index. html And these series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine have taken their place to be scanned, proofread, and posted in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted as they are done: Figures of the Transition Age (12-part series): (These are now being scanned.) Theosophists Unaware (14-part series): (These are now being scanned.) Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 21 articles added in the past fourteen days were all added to the "Additional" page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings of articles, as well as the seven different categories of articles that are being worked on at all times. All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more experienced students at all levels -- including the very scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with much profound and informative Theosophical information that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be "Supplementary" reading and study material for participants of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, all three of the forums so far under way here on Blavatsky Net: bn-basic, bn-study, and bn-sd. As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful. Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- The "Additional Categories of Articles" page: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html The "Main Page": http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [walters@latnet.lv] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net From nous@btinternet.com Tue Dec 05 13:34:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: nous@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 21:34:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 82849 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 21:34:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 21:34:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO carbon.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.92) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 21:34:42 -0000 Received: from [213.1.60.137] (helo=User) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 143PjN-0006PO-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 21:34:34 +0000 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:34:23 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C05F03.22936700" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007c01c05eda$13902870$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Peter Merriott" ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C05F03.22936700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Gene, Here are some reflections that arise from reading yours. You ask, "What is the difference between 1 and 0? (same as between 10 and 0)" When I try and sense into this it seems there can be no difference. There is only ever the ONE. To the conceptual mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises differences, the Absulute is reduced to NOUGHT that can be conceived. To the intuition it is always the ever-present ONE. The ever incognisable PRESENCE. It is not that it is no-thing. It just isn't any-thing. In other words it is 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than ITSELF, the ONE. This is how I would understand the description of SPACE given it in the Secret Doctrine as "bare subjectivity." It only appears "unconscious" to our limited kind of conceptual conscoiusness. Reall it is pure consciousness, Absolute Consciousness. It makes sense to me that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subjectivity", is also what Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without an object." (in Pathways through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness without an object) Perhaps a different kind of question is, ""What is the difference between the unmanifested ONE and the manifested ONE?" The conceptual mind adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" or nothing, "0". The heart senses the ONE is in the ONE. The heart can live with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet is always 'empty of other-ness'. Another kind of question is, "What is the difference between the 1 and the 10? How do we just sense into that... within ourselves...? ... the ONE that is in the ONE and is everywhere ... the O that is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be limited to any 'one' place or time. ""The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere..." (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11) Just some reflections to add to yours. all the best, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: 05 December 2000 16:39 To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: poles@iitp.ru Subject: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Big question: What is the difference between 1 and 0?(same as between 10 and 0) Using set notation and praying for clarity: zero or ( ) one or ( ( ) ) ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C05F03.22936700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 Gene,
 
Here are = some=20 reflections that arise from reading yours.
 
You=20 ask,   "What is the difference between 1 and 0?  (same as between 1= 0 and=20 0)"
 
When I tr= y and sense=20 into this it seems there can be no difference.  There is only eve= r the=20 ONE.
 
To the co= nceptual=20 mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises=20 differences, the Absulute is reduced to  NOUGHT  t= hat=20 can be conceived.
 
To the in= tuition it=20  is  always  the  ever-present   ONE. &n= bsp;=20 The ever incognisable PRESENCE.
 
It is not= that it is=20 no-thing.   It just isn't any-thing.
 
In other = words it is=20 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than ITSELF, the=20 ONE.
 
This is h= ow I would=20 understand the description of SPACE given it in the Secret Doctrine as "bar= e=20 subjectivity."   It only appears "unconscious" to our limited kin= d of=20 conceptual conscoiusness.  Reall it is pure consciousness, Absolute=20 Consciousness. 
 
It makes = sense to me=20 that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subjectivity",  is also= what=20 Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without an object." (in Pathway= s=20 through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness without an=20 object)
 
Perhaps a= different=20 kind of question is,  ""What is the difference between the unmanifeste= d ONE=20 and the manifested ONE?"
 
The conce= ptual mind=20 adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" or nothing,=20 "0".
 
The=20 heart senses the ONE is in the ONE.
 
The heart= can live=20 with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet is always 'empty of=20 other-ness'.
 
Another k= ind of=20 question is,  "What is the difference between the 1 and the=20 10?
 
How do we= just sense=20 into that... within ourselves...? 
 
... the O= NE that is=20 in the ONE and is everywhere
...= the O that=20 is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be limited to any 'on= e'=20 place or time.
 
""The=20 One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere a= nd=20 everywhere..."  (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11)=20
 
Jus= t some=20 reflections to add to yours.
 
all= the=20 best,
 
Peter
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
Fr= om:=20 Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: 05 December = 2000=20 16:39
To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com
Cc:=20 poles@iitp.ru
Subject: Theos-World=20 Consciousness/Unconsciousness

Big question:  What is the differen= ce=20 between 1 and 0?(same as between 10 and 0)
 
Using set notation and praying for=20 clarity:
 
zero or =20 (        )
 
one or (  (  ) =20 )
 
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C05F03.22936700-- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Dec 05 15:08:21 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 5 Dec 2000 23:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 85798 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2000 23:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2000 23:07:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2000 23:07:56 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id PAA21555 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id PAA21543 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00d201c05f11$06c1f0b0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:12:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C05ECD.D5301A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C05ECD.D5301A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Peter, Thankyou very much. Very nice. That the heart can live with the paradox i= s lovely. I remember reading that Kurt Godel stated that we can never buil= d a thinking machine(because it can't handle self-referential statements) a= nd that whatever machines we build will need human input in order to help t= he machines with these paradoxical statements. However, he stated that he = couldn't rule out that we might construct an intuition machine that could h= elp the logical one. Ah! How to construct the artificial human heart, in = the poet's sense of the term! The heart integrates thought, emotion, and behavior into one glorious whole= Life. How we need the intuition that one finds in deep contemplation! Thankyou, Intuitively onward, Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Peter Merriott=20 To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:34 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Dear Gene, Here are some reflections that arise from reading yours. You ask, "What is the difference between 1 and 0? (same as between 10 = and 0)" When I try and sense into this it seems there can be no difference. Ther= e is only ever the ONE. To the conceptual mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises= differences, the Absulute is reduced to NOUGHT that can be conceived. To the intuition it is always the ever-present ONE. The ever inco= gnisable PRESENCE. It is not that it is no-thing. It just isn't any-thing. In other words it is 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than IT= SELF, the ONE. This is how I would understand the description of SPACE given it in the S= ecret Doctrine as "bare subjectivity." It only appears "unconscious" to o= ur limited kind of conceptual conscoiusness. Reall it is pure consciousnes= s, Absolute Consciousness.=20=20 It makes sense to me that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subje= ctivity", is also what Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without= an object." (in Pathways through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness wi= thout an object) Perhaps a different kind of question is, ""What is the difference betwee= n the unmanifested ONE and the manifested ONE?" The conceptual mind adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" = or nothing, "0". The heart senses the ONE is in the ONE. The heart can live with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet = is always 'empty of other-ness'. Another kind of question is, "What is the difference between the 1 and t= he 10? How do we just sense into that... within ourselves...?=20=20 ... the ONE that is in the ONE and is everywhere ... the O that is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be l= imited to any 'one' place or time. ""The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is n= owhere and everywhere..." (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11)=20 Just some reflections to add to yours. all the best, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: 05 December 2000 16:39 To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: poles@iitp.ru Subject: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Big question: What is the difference between 1 and 0?(same as between = 10 and 0) Using set notation and praying for clarity: zero or ( ) one or ( ( ) ) eGroups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C05ECD.D5301A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Peter,
 
Thankyou very much.  Very nice. = That the=20 heart can live with the paradox is lovely.  I remember reading that Ku= rt=20 Godel stated that we can never build a thinking machine(because it can't ha= ndle=20 self-referential statements) and that whatever machines we build will need = human=20 input in order to help the machines with these paradoxical statements. = ;=20 However, he stated that he couldn't rule out that we might construct an=20 intuition machine that could help the logical one.  Ah!  How to=20 construct the artificial human heart, in the poet's sense of the=20 term!
 
The heart integrates thought, emotion, and= behavior=20 into one glorious whole Life.  How we need the intuition that one= =20 finds in deep contemplation!
 
Thankyou,
Intuitively onward,
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Peter= =20 Merriott
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1= :34=20 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World=20 Consciousness/Unconsciousness

Dear=20 Gene,
 
Here ar= e some=20 reflections that arise from reading yours.
 
You=20 ask,   "What is the difference between 1 and 0?  (same as between= 10 and=20 0)"
 
When I = try and=20 sense into this it seems there can be no difference.  There is = only=20 ever the ONE.
 
To the = conceptual=20 mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises=20 differences, the Absulute is reduced to  NOUGHT  = ;that=20 can be conceived.
 
To the = intuition=20 it  is  always  the  ever-present  =20 ONE.   The ever incognisable PRESENCE.
 
It is n= ot that it=20 is no-thing.   It just isn't=20 any-thing.
 
In othe= r words it=20 is 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than ITSELF, the=20 ONE.
 
This is= how I=20 would understand the description of SPACE given it in the Secret Doctrine= as=20 "bare subjectivity."   It only appears "unconscious" to our lim= ited=20 kind of conceptual conscoiusness.  Reall it is pure consciousness,=20 Absolute Consciousness. 
 
It make= s sense to=20 me that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subjectivity",  is= also=20 what Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without an object." (in= =20 Pathways through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness without an=20 object)
 
Perhaps= a=20 different kind of question is,  ""What is the difference between the= =20 unmanifested ONE and the manifested ONE?"
 
The con= ceptual=20 mind adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" or nothing= ,=20 "0".
 
The=20 heart senses the ONE is in the ONE.
 
The hea= rt can live=20 with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet is always 'empty of= =20 other-ness'.
 
Another= kind of=20 question is,  "What is the difference between the 1 and the=20 10?
 
How do = we just=20 sense into that... within ourselves...? 
 
... the= ONE that=20 is in the ONE and is everywhere
.= .. the O=20 that is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be limited to = any=20 'one' place or time.
 
"= "The=20 One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere= and=20 everywhere..."  (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11)=20
 
J= ust some=20 reflections to add to yours.
 
a= ll the=20 best,
 
Peter
 
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter=20 [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: 05 December 2000=20 16:39
To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com
Cc:<= /B>=20 poles@iitp.ru
Subject: Theos-World=20 Consciousness/Unconsciousness

Big question:  What is the differ= ence=20 between 1 and 0?(same as between 10 and 0)
 
Using set notation and praying for=20 clarity:
 
zero or =20 (        )
 
one or (  (  ) =20 )
 

------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C05ECD.D5301A60-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 06 04:22:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 12:22:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 19005 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 12:22:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 12:22:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 12:22:14 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA18102 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:32:28 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0074.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.74]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA06241; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:19:39 -0800 (PST) To: "Eugene Carpenter" Subject: RE: THAT AND THE LAW OF LOVE -- How we 'create' ourselves Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:16:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C05F3B.545F1300" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c05f0a$29dbb470$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> From: dalval14@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C05F3B.545F1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit December 5, 2000 Dear Gene: Sounds interesting. May I add a few more thoughts that you evoked in mine when reading it? But the MIND (in incarnation in a physical body, such as we all inhabit) is dual. 1. Higher -- unified, spiritual, wise, benevolent, virtuous, mindful of Law, etc.. and 2. Lower -- inchoate, selfish, sometimes vicious, secretive and loves to break the Law if it can remain unseen and “get away with it” , etc… It (the MIND) serves as a bridge (Theosophy says) between the Spiritual and the Material ( the 2 “opposite Poles” of “manifestation.) 1. On one side it is linked to the divine and PERMANENT in NATURE. 2. On the other end it is linked to the privations and limitations of matter and for and a whole education (for its present life-time) to a particular name, race, religion, culture, science and all the limitations and possible errors that have been attached to those (as well as the good things too -- but it takes effort to impersonalize and universalize concepts. I think we are trying to do this and adjust our vocabularies. I hope you may agree with me that there has to be a third and an impartial FACTOR: There is obviously, and clearly (to me) the WITNESS, or that which is essential and basic in us, which is the ruler and director of the mind. The Mind is a wonderful TOOL. But the “I” within directs and controls its activities. I recognize that the “wind of desire” can sweep up the unstable mind and “carry it away.” The problem with DESIRE is that without the mind, it cannot foresee the results of its actions. It is wrapped in its own motives, goals, pleasures and is careless of those of others. [However, it is also interesting to note that in ordinary statute and law a basic premise is that every human is RESPONSIBLE for their actions, and ipso facto the conquest and control of their MIND and ACTIONS.] While in a body the “Lower mind” (usually ruled by desire, passion and selfishness) prevails. But the “Higher Mind” is not entirely excluded -- or we could not be writing about it and seeking it, as we are here and now. The Lower Mind perceives that it is unstable and (following desire and inclination) it is seen to flit from subject to subject. How does it secure STABILITY, CONTROL, ONE-POINTEDNESS ? It seeks a discipline that some one may have already established and looks around for traces of a “path.” Does it not appeal for these more stable condition to its mentor the Higher Mind ? Mind you, even if one receives advice “from within” (conscience, intuition) the Lower mind may not “like it,” and may “reject it.” Theosophy states that the “Higher Mind” of any human has the same qualities and characteristics to be found in every other -- it is shared. This is the universal quality of the One Law of Evolution, and it is ruled by the UNIVERSAL AND DEATHLESS SPIRIT. In this we are all BROTHERS -- and the aim of Theosophy is to make this plain to those who desire to prove that for themselves. Those who consider themselves philosophers or “friends who are seekers for Truth” are usually in such a position. To clear the air, one might engage in the following consideration: BEFORE, DURING and AFTER MANIFESTATION there is always the immutable, immeasurable, Background -- called in THEOSOPHY SD terms ( Vol. 1 ) ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS, or DARKNESS (no contrasts, no light generator). THAT which has neither attributes nor limitations, nor may IT have any. [T. Glos 4] In Hinduism PARABRAHM -- attributeless, Secondless REALITY, impersonal, Nameless, universal PRINCIPLE [ T. Glos 248 ] PRABHAVAPYAYA - whence all things originate and into which all things resolve at the End of the LIFE-CYCLE. [ T. Glos. 259 ] PRAKRITIKA PRALAYA -- which succeeds the Age of Brahma, then all that exists is Resolved back into its primordial essence. [ T. Glos 260 ] This is both the ZERO and the ONE when viewed from the plane of differentiation. Hence the concept of the TWO ONES (see SD I p. 130 ) The Universal KARMIC LAW demands that DIFFERENTIATION and manifestation OCCUR AGAIN, (and then after a restorative rest, they recommence). This creative and equilibrating factor cannot be eliminated from any concept, or review. One may call it the inevitable PAST. It implies that we will always be affected and influenced by all the choices we have made earlier, in this life or in earlier incarnations. We have left a “trail” of effects on the minute constituents of Nature and now they “follow us.” We have to carefully free them of any deleterious impressions that we may have placed on them earlier. In Hindu philosophy these are called the “aggregates” (Monads of lesser experience, for which we are trustees and tutors) skandhas, samskaras, “little lives,” etc… This implies earlier “Manifestations,” earlier “Differentiations.” In those we lived and participated and left an impression of our work and management (ethical, moral, factual) . But this like an account carried forward means that our deeds of the past have to be HARMONIZED in the present and the future that is arriving up to us as we live. [ SD I 632 bottom ]. HARMONY is the ONE and SUPREME LAW in the ALL [ SD II 420, ML 141 SD I 632 ] For our understanding of our current position, in general, a 3-fold evolutionary scheme is sketched in SD I 181-2 SPIRITUAL or MONADIC atma-Buddhi conjoined ] INTELLECTUAL or MANASIC (Mind) PHYSICAL or TEMPORARY, ILLUSORY FORMS. Corresponding to each of these are the actual entities who ‘live in’ and are ‘influenced by’ their temporary sojourn in any set of situations. Prior to emergence from the ‘sleep’ of a great Maha-Pralaya, the UNIVERSE moved by the conjoined Karma of all the beings that participated in its earlier activities begins to stir, to become aware of the need to “awake” and to “resume” -- just like a pupil stirs each morning and prepares for School. [ see SD I 27-29 ] So every pupil/MONAD in Nature begins to stir and prepare to work again in a fresh Manifestation through the path of evolution, and many reincarnations. In the SD H.P.B. uses the concept of the LOGOS (word or verbum) as a symbol of that fundamental INTELLIGENCE that pervades manifestation and all ex-istence. It implies law, purpose, a plan, intelligence, benevolence, education, and all the many variants in life that are associated with thought and feeling working and living in a “form.” Situationally, this would include us as well as all MONADS that are rising through the rungs and levels that are provided for individual experience, to the independence of self-consciousness -- that is the human estate. (Our human condition.) Passing through the “human estate” (graduating) are MONADS that assume wider and deeper responsibilities based entirely on their mastery of knowledge, law, wisdom, benevolence, charity, virtue, and brotherhood. [ Names given to this series of “super-men” are “ Elder Brother, initiate, Adept, Master of Wisdom, Buddha, Rishi, Mahatma, etc… A whole host of beings that have vaster duties than ours to occupy their time and attention, although some of them continue to assist mankind in its development. We owe the SD and Theosophy to the work and benevolence of such beings. They we revere as our teachers and as Masters of Wisdom and of Compassion.] She speaks of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd LOGOS. She seems to assign definite functions in time and activity UNMANIFESTED LOGOS - THE IDEAS AND PLANS OF A NEW MANIFESTATION MANIFESTING LOGOS - THE ACTUAL TRANSITION INTO MANIFESTATION MANIFESTED LOGOS - THE WHOLE OF MANIFESTATION AS IT NOW IS The 1st Vol. of the SD deals extensively with these ideas. Additional information was given by H.P.B. to her pupils which you will find reprinted in a small book titled: TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE. There is much to study and think about and if one does this a little at a time, but steadily, the coherence of this vast scheme becomes ever clearer and more reasonable. In the first instance one cannot “hurry” one’s own progress. There is usually much to “undo.” But there are also friends to whom we can entrust our perplexities, and as we advance, we develop our INTUITION and the channel to our own HIGHER MIND and HIGHER SELF (MONAD - ATMA/BUDDHI) can ever be widened. I trust this may prove to be of some help. Dallas W. Dallas TenBroeck ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:25 PM To: dalval14@earthlink.net Subject: THAT darn LOVE Hi Dallas, Yes. I'm dealing with a translation of Hwa Yen and small parts. I'm looking to understanding the first three sets: zero, one and two and their intimate relationships. This is my primary focus. Then and only then do I look to the fragmentary and translated portions of what is to me an overcomplicated and hyper-intellectual and out-of-the-reach of ordinary minds philosophy. I much prefer HPB. But I'm making my own way. I sit and rest and become less and less interested in opinions and other distractions. I'm learning not to clutter my mind. I love a clear mind even if there is nothing in it! Especially when there is nothing in it! ================================ DTB Managing the mind is better than blanking it. The attractions and distractions of the LOWER MIND need to be controlled (suppressed for a while). This enables the HIGHER MIND (that deals with universals, ideals, virtues, constructive work, etc..) to do its work. In either case YOU the WITNESS and the PERCEIVER are inevitably active overseeing the work that the mind does, and YOU are the one controlling its work. This is the POSITIVE WORK each has to learn to do. The “blanking the mind” is purely NEGATIVE and produces nothing that is of any future value. ================================== I really shouldn't have used the word it. I should use the word THAT. I know. I sort of like to tease it by being overly informal. Somehow I don't think it minds. The mind needs integration. All these infinite states of consciousness need drawing up together into seven states, then three and then just one and then the one fades to nothing. Love does this. Love is THAT to which I refer. Love: THAT which is beyond words, beyond all possible thought . . . .by definition. Para Atma. Group Consciousness. ================================== DTB Consider your own words and their implications. LOVE is an emotion. It merely says I need “this or that” because without it I FEEL incomplete. Is this an actual necessity? Does it express what the FREE IMMORTAL SELF needs ? We need to find out what are our NEEDS vs. what are our “wants.” [ Maslow has given us a valuable table on these. ] What is the nature of the SELF -- not just the words that others have used, but those which we can apply to IT (within us) -- we have to perceive its presence within and realize that IT is ONE WITH THE GREAT “ALL.” Each of us is an IMMORTAL, not separate but an indissoluble part of the ALL. GROUP CONSCIOUSNESS ? Is it that of the ETERNAL or of the “herd ?” Secure a grip on understanding the duality of the Mind, and then watch it working in yourself. The only way anyone can progress is by self-effort. We teach ourselves. Even if we adopt the concepts and disciplines that others offer (or sell ?) it is WE (alone) who make decisions as to use and application. Even the decision to “do nothing” is still a DECISION. And we MAKE IT. All advances in life are the result of positive actions. No one ever gains anything from “reliance on others,” no matter how great ethically and morally they may be. Every man makes himself, gradually but surely into that which he really sets up as his ideal. Mental visualization follows the CHOICE OF A GOAL. So we have to be very careful -- which is what Theosophy teaches from one end to the other. It acts like a mirror and shows us what and how we are. [see SD II 176: “Desire first arose in IT, …. “] Read this most carefully, and also the comments in SD II 578-9. On the importance of the MONAD - (or ATMA/BUDDHI) (as the indestructible and intelligent building-blocks of all Nature) -- SD I 613 to 634. Best wishes, Dal ====================== Gene ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C05F3B.545F1300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dece= mber 5, 2000

 

Dear= Gene:

 

Soun= ds interesting.  May I add a few= more thoughts that you evoked in mine when reading it?<= /span>

 

 

But = the MIND (in incarnation in a physical body, such as we all inhabit) is dual.  <= /p>

 

1.  Higher -- unified, spiritual, wis= e, benevolent, virtuous, mindful of Law, etc..  and

 

2.  Lower --  inchoate, selfish, sometimes vicious,  secretive and loves to break the L= aw if it can remain unseen and “get away with it” , etc…

 

It (= the MIND) serves as a bridge (Theosophy says) between the Spiritual and the Material ( the 2 “opposite Poles” of “manifestation.)  1.  On one= side it is linked to the divine and PERMANENT in NATURE.  2.  On the= other end it is linked to the privations and limitations of matter and for and a whole education (for its present life-time) to a particular name, race, religion, culture, science and all the limitations and possible errors that have been attached to those (as well as the good things too -- but it takes= effort to impersonalize and universalize concepts.  I think we are trying to do this and adjust our vocabularies.

 

I ho= pe you may agree with me that there has to be a third and an impartial FACTOR:  <= /p>

 

Ther= e is obviously,  and clearly (to me)  the WITNESS, or that which is esse= ntial and basic in us, which is the ruler and director of the mind.  The Mind is a wonderful TOOL.  But the “I” within di= rects and controls its activities.  I recognize = that the “wind of desire” can sweep up the unstable mind and “= carry it away.”  <= /p>

 

The problem with DESIRE is that without the mind, it cannot foresee the results= of its actions.  It is wrapped i= n its own motives, goals, pleasures and is careless of those of others.  [However, it is also interesting = to note that in ordinary statute and law a basic premise is that every human i= s RESPONSIBLE for their actions, and ipso facto the conquest and control of t= heir MIND and ACTIONS.]

 

Whil= e in a body the “Lower mind”  <= /span>(usually ruled by desire, passion and selfishness) prevails.  But the “Higher Mind” is not entirely exclud= ed -- or we could not be writing about it and seeking it, as we are here and now.<= /o:p>

 

The = Lower Mind perceives that it is unstable and (following desire and inclination) it is = seen to flit from subject to subject.  How does it secure STABILITY, CONTROL, ONE-POINTEDNESS ?  It seeks a discipline that some o= ne may have already established and looks around for traces of a “path.̶= 1;  Does it not appeal for these more = stable condition to its mentor the Higher Mind ?=  

 

Mind= you, even if one receives advice “from within”  (conscience, intuition) the Lower mind may not “like it,”= ; and may “reject it.”  Theosophy states = that the “Higher Mind” of any human has the same qualities and characteristics to be f= ound in every other -- it is shared.  This is the universal quality of the One Law of Evolution, and it is ruled by th= e UNIVERSAL AND DEATHLESS SPIRIT.  In this we are all BROTHERS -- and the aim of Theosophy is to make this plain = to those who desire to prove that for themselves.

 

Thos= e who consider themselves philosophers or “friends who are seekers for Trut= h” are usually in such a position.

 

To c= lear the air, one might engage in the following consideration:=

 

 

BEFO= RE, DURING and AFTER MANIFESTATION there is always the immutable, immeasurable,=

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Background -- called in THEOSOPHY SD terms  ( Vol. 1 )

 

        &= nbsp;   ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS, or DARKNESS (no contrasts, no light generator).  <= /p>

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   THAT which has neither attributes nor limitations, nor may IT have any. [T. Glos  4]

 

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   In Hinduism

 

        &= nbsp;   PARABRAHM  --  attributeless, Secondless REALITY, impersonal, Nameless,=

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   universal PRINCIPLE   [ T. Glos  248 ]

 

        &= nbsp;   PRABHAVAPYAYA  - whence all things originate and= into which all things resolve at the

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   End of the LIFE-CYCLE.  [ T. Glos= . 259 ]

 

        &= nbsp;   PRAKRITIKA PRALAYA  --  which succeeds the Age of Brahma,= then all that exists is

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Resolved back into its primordial essence.  [ T. Glos  260 ]<= /o:p>

 

        &= nbsp;   This is both the ZERO and the ONE when viewed from the plane of differentiation.  Hence the c= oncept of the TWO ONES  (see SD I p.= 130 )

 

The Universal KARMIC LAW demands that DIFFERENTIATION and manifestation OCCUR A= GAIN, (and then after a restorative rest, they recommence).  This creative and equilibrating fa= ctor cannot be eliminated from any concept, or review.  One may call it the inevitable PAST.  It implies that we will always be = affected and influenced by all the choices we have made earlier, in this life or in = earlier incarnations.  

 

We h= ave left a “trail” of effects on the minute constituents of Nature and n= ow they “follow us.”  We have to carefully free th= em of any deleterious impressions that we may have placed on them earlier.  In Hindu philosophy these are call= ed the “aggregates”  (Mo= nads of lesser experience, for which we are trustees and tutors) skandhas, samskaras, “little li= ves,” etc…

 

This implies earlier “Manifestations,” earlier “Differentiatio= ns.”   In those we lived and parti= cipated and left an impression of our work and management (ethical, moral, factual)= .  But this like an account carried forward means that our deeds of the past have to be HARMONIZED in the prese= nt and the future that is arriving up to us as we live. [ SD I 632 bottom ].

 

HARM= ONY is the ONE and SUPREME LAW in the ALL &= nbsp; [  SD II 420,  ML 141  SD I 632 ]

 

For = our understanding of our current position, in general, a 3-fold evolutionary sc= heme is sketched in SD I 181-2 

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   SPIRITUAL        &= nbsp;          or MONADIC  [ atma-Buddhi conjoi= ned ]

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   INTELLECTUAL        &= nbsp;    or MANASIC (Mind)

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   PHYSICAL        &= nbsp;           or TEMPORARY, ILLUSORY FORMS.

 

Corr= esponding to each of these are the actual entities who ‘live in’ and are = ‘influenced by’ their       &= nbsp;     temporary sojourn in any set of situations.  <= /span>

 

Prio= r to emergence from the ‘sleep’ of a great Maha-Pralaya, the UNIVERS= E moved by the conjoined Karma of all the beings that participated in its earlier activiti= es begins to stir, to become aware of the need to “awake” and to &= #8220;resume”  -- just like a pupil stirs each m= orning and prepares for School.

[ se= e SD I 27-29 ]  So every pupil/MONAD= in Nature begins to stir and prepare to work again in a fresh Manifestation through the path of evolution, and many reincarnations.

 

In t= he SD  H.P.B. uses the concept of the LOG= OS  (word or verbum) as a symbol of th= at fundamental INTELLIGENCE  tha= t pervades manifestation and all ex-istence.  It implies law, purpose, a plan, intelligence, benevolence, educatio= n, and all the many variants in life that are associated with thought and feel= ing working and living in a “form.”   

 

Situ= ationally, this would include us as well as all MONADS that are rising through the run= gs and levels that are provided for individual experience, to the independence of self-consciousness --  that i= s the human estate.  (Our human condition.) 

 

Pass= ing through the “human estate” (graduating) are MONADS that assume = wider and deeper responsibilities based entirely on their mastery of knowledge, law, wisdom, benevolence, charity, virtue, and brotherhood.  [ Names given to this series of “super-men” = are “ Elder Brother, initiate, Adept, Master of Wisdom, Buddha, Rishi, Mahatma, etc… A who= le host of beings that have vaster duties than ours to occupy their time and attention= , although some of them continue to assist mankind in its development.  We owe the SD and Theosophy to th= e work and benevolence of such beings.  They we revere as our teachers and as Masters of Wisdom and of Compassion.]

 

She = speaks of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd LOGOS.  She seems to assign definite functions in time and activity

 

        &= nbsp;   UNMANIFESTED LOGOS      &n= bsp;    -  THE IDEAS AND PLANS OF A NEW MANIFESTATION

        &= nbsp;   MANIFESTING LOGOS      &n= bsp;       -  THE ACTUAL TRANSITION INTO MANIFESTATION

        &= nbsp;   MANIFESTED LOGOS      &n= bsp;        -  THE WHOLE OF MANIFESTATION AS IT = NOW IS

 

The = 1st Vol. of the SD  deals extensi= vely with these ideas.  Additional information was given by H.P.B. to her pupils which you will find reprinted= in a small book titled: TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE.  <= /p>

 

Ther= e is much to study and think about and if one does this a little at a time, but steadily, the coherence of this vast scheme becomes ever clearer and more reasonable.  In the first ins= tance one cannot “hurry” one’s own progress.  There is usually much to “undo.”  But there are also friends to whom we can entrust our perplexities, = and as we advance, we develop our INTUITION and the channel to our own HIGHER M= IND and HIGHER SELF (MONAD - ATMA/BUDDHI) can ever be widened.

 

I tr= ust this may prove to be of some help.

 

Dall= as

 

W. Dallas TenBroeck 

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, = 2000 2:25 PM
To: dalval14@earthlink.net Subject: THAT darn LOVE

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> 

Hi Dallas,

=  

Yes.  I'm dealing with a transla= tion of Hwa Yen and small parts.  I'm looking to understanding the first th= ree sets: zero, one and two and their intimate relationships.  This is my primary focus.  Then and only then do I look to the fragmentary and translated portions of what is to me an overcomplicated and hyper-intellect= ual and out-of-the-reach of ordinary minds philosophy.  I much prefer HPB.  But I'm making my own way.  I sit and rest and become less = and less interested in opinions and other distractions.  I'm learning not = to clutter my mind.  I love a clear mind even if there is nothing in it!  Especially when there is nothing in it!<= /p>

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

DTB&n= bsp;     Managing the mind is better than blanking it. = ; The attractions and distractions of the LOWER MIND need to be contro= lled (suppressed for a while).  Th= is enables the HIGHER MIND (that deals with universals, ideals, virtues, constructive work, etc..) to do its work.=   In either case YOU the WITNESS and the PERCEIVER are inevitably acti= ve overseeing the work that the mind does, and YOU are the one controlling its work.  This is the POSITIVE W= ORK each has to learn to do.  The= “blanking the mind” is purely NEGATIVE and produces nothing that is of any futu= re value.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=  

I really shouldn't have used the word it.  I should use the word THAT.  I know.  I sort of like to tease it by being overly informal.  Somehow I don't think it minds.

=  

The mind needs integration.  All these infinite states of consciousness need drawing up together into seven = states, then three and then just one and then the one fades to nothing.  Love = does this.  Love is THAT to which I refer.  Love:  THAT which is beyond words, beyond all possible thought . . . .by definition.  Para Atma.  Group Consciousness.

=  

= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=  

= DTB&= nbsp;   Consider your own words and their implications.&nb= sp; LOVE is an emotion.  I= t merely says I need “this or that” because without it I FEEL inc= omplete.  Is this an actual necessity?  Does it express what the FREE IMM= ORTAL SELF needs ? 

=  

= We need to find out what are our NEE= DS vs. what are our “wants.”  <= /span>[ Maslow has given us a valuable table on these. ]

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> 

= What is the nature of the SELF -- no= t just the words that others have used, but those which we can apply to IT (within us)  -- we have to perceive i= ts presence within and realize that IT is ONE WITH THE GREAT “ALL.”= ; 

=  

= Each of us is an IMMORTAL, not separ= ate but an indissoluble part of the ALL.

=  

= GROUP CONSCIOUSNESS ?  Is it that of the ETERNAL or of t= he “herd ?”  Secure a grip on un= derstanding the duality of the Mind, and then watch it working in yourself. 

=  

= The only way anyone can progress is = by self-effort.  We teach ourselves.  Even if we adopt = the concepts and disciplines that others offer (or sell ?) it is WE (alone) who make decisions as to use and application.=   Even the decision to “do nothing” is still a DECISION.  And we MAKE IT.=

=  

= All advances in life are the result = of positive actions.  No one eve= r gains anything from “reliance on others,” no matter how great e= thically and morally they may be.  Every m= an makes himself, gradually but surely into that which he really sets up as hi= s ideal.  Mental visualization follows the CHOICE OF A GOAL.  So we have to be very careful -- which is what Theosophy teaches from one end = to the other.  It acts like a mi= rror and shows us what and how we are.

= [see SD II 176:  “Desire first arose in IT, …. “]  Read this most carefully, and also the comments in SD II 578-9.

=  

= On the importance of the MONAD - (or ATMA/BUDDHI)  (as the indestructible and intelligent building-blocks of all Nature)  --  SD I 613 to 634.

=  

=  

=  Best wishes,=

=  

= Dal&= nbsp;    

=  

= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> 

Gene=

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C05F3B.545F1300-- From DNisk98114@aol.com Wed Dec 06 06:36:26 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 14:36:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 4371 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 14:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 14:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r13.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.67) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 14:36:24 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-r13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.34.) id a.28.e0bb2ad (657) for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:36:12 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 66 To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: Unknown sub 171 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/6/00 4:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos-talk@egroups.com writes: > 1. > > 2. ( ) > > 3. ( . ) > > > > Folly or a very interesting meditation excercise?(or perhaps something > inbetween?) > > > > Gene > We might want to add 4. ( , ) --part1_28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/6/00 4:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
theos-talk@egroups.com writes:


1.

2. (      )

3. (  .  )



Folly or a very interesting meditation excercise?(or perhaps something
inbetween?)



Gene


We might want to add
4.  ( ,  ) --part1_28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc_boundary-- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Dec 06 07:44:20 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 15:44:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 14044 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 15:44:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 15:44:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 15:44:19 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id HAA13811 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id HAA13807 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:44:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002601c05f9c$389c5400$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <28.e0bb2ad.275fa8dc@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 66 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:50:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C05F59.2A5C1620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C05F59.2A5C1620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. Yes. Please explain. Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DNisk98114@aol.com=20 To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:36 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 66 In a message dated 12/6/00 4:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 theos-talk@egroups.com writes:=20 1.=20 2. ( )=20 3. ( . )=20 Folly or a very interesting meditation excercise?(or perhaps something= =20 inbetween?)=20 Gene=20 We might want to add=20 4. ( , )=20 eGroups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C05F59.2A5C1620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes.  Yes.
 
Please explain.
 
 
Gene
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 DNisk98114@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000= 6:36=20 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Nu= mber=20 66

In a messa= ge dated=20 12/6/00 4:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
theos-talk@egroups.com writes:= =20


1.

2. (      )

3. = (=20  .  )



Folly or a very interesting meditation= =20 excercise?(or perhaps something
inbetween?)



Gene=20


We might want to add 4.=20  ( ,  )
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C05F59.2A5C1620-- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Dec 06 08:19:24 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 16:19:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 59714 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 16:19:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 16:19:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 17:20:28 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA17517 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA17513 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:19:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005801c05fa1$1d44dec0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:23:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0055_01C05F5D.E51D8C10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C05F5D.E51D8C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Peter, Thanks again for your response. It is interesting to see your mind resolvi= ng this question. Perhaps the mind is the resolving aspect of the question= : What is the difference between zero and one. 1. Will Aspect ( ) 2. Love Aspect ( ( ) ) 3. Mind Aspect ( ( ), ( () ) ) 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two 4. The Oneness of the Two(the buddhic-intuitive mind, harmony, beauty Words of Power of the 4th ray of Harmony through conflict: "The two merge with one." Yes, indeed, somehow the two are one. Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Peter Merriott=20 To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:34 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Dear Gene, Here are some reflections that arise from reading yours. You ask, "What is the difference between 1 and 0? (same as between 10 = and 0)" When I try and sense into this it seems there can be no difference. Ther= e is only ever the ONE. To the conceptual mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises= differences, the Absulute is reduced to NOUGHT that can be conceived. To the intuition it is always the ever-present ONE. The ever inco= gnisable PRESENCE. It is not that it is no-thing. It just isn't any-thing. In other words it is 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than IT= SELF, the ONE. This is how I would understand the description of SPACE given it in the S= ecret Doctrine as "bare subjectivity." It only appears "unconscious" to o= ur limited kind of conceptual conscoiusness. Reall it is pure consciousnes= s, Absolute Consciousness.=20=20 It makes sense to me that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subje= ctivity", is also what Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without= an object." (in Pathways through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness wi= thout an object) Perhaps a different kind of question is, ""What is the difference betwee= n the unmanifested ONE and the manifested ONE?" The conceptual mind adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" = or nothing, "0". The heart senses the ONE is in the ONE. The heart can live with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet = is always 'empty of other-ness'. Another kind of question is, "What is the difference between the 1 and t= he 10? How do we just sense into that... within ourselves...?=20=20 ... the ONE that is in the ONE and is everywhere ... the O that is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be l= imited to any 'one' place or time. ""The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is n= owhere and everywhere..." (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11)=20 Just some reflections to add to yours. all the best, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: 05 December 2000 16:39 To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: poles@iitp.ru Subject: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Big question: What is the difference between 1 and 0?(same as between = 10 and 0) Using set notation and praying for clarity: zero or ( ) one or ( ( ) ) eGroups Sponsor=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C05F5D.E51D8C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Peter,
 
Thanks again for your response.  It i= s=20 interesting to see your mind resolving this question.  Perhaps the min= d is=20 the resolving aspect of the question:  What is the difference between = zero=20 and one.
 
1.  Will Aspect =20 (      )
2. Love Aspect ( ( ) )
3. Mind Aspect (  (  ), ( () )=20 )
 
1. Zero
2. One
3. Two
4. The Oneness of the Two(the buddhic-intu= itive=20 mind, harmony, beauty
 
Words of Power of the 4th ray of Harmony t= hrough=20 conflict:
 
"The two merge with one."
 
Yes, indeed, somehow the two are one.
 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 Peter= =20 Merriott
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1= :34=20 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World=20 Consciousness/Unconsciousness

Dear=20 Gene,
 
Here ar= e some=20 reflections that arise from reading yours.
 
You=20 ask,   "What is the difference between 1 and 0?  (same as between= 10 and=20 0)"
 
When I = try and=20 sense into this it seems there can be no difference.  There is = only=20 ever the ONE.
 
To the = conceptual=20 mind that is born of differentiation, and thus cognises=20 differences, the Absulute is reduced to  NOUGHT  = ;that=20 can be conceived.
 
To the = intuition=20 it  is  always  the  ever-present  =20 ONE.   The ever incognisable PRESENCE.
 
It is n= ot that it=20 is no-thing.   It just isn't=20 any-thing.
 
In othe= r words it=20 is 'empty of other'... empty of any-thing other than ITSELF, the=20 ONE.
 
This is= how I=20 would understand the description of SPACE given it in the Secret Doctrine= as=20 "bare subjectivity."   It only appears "unconscious" to our lim= ited=20 kind of conceptual conscoiusness.  Reall it is pure consciousness,=20 Absolute Consciousness. 
 
It make= s sense to=20 me that this ONE which is 'empty of other', "bare subjectivity",  is= also=20 what Franklin Merrell-Wolff terms "Consciousness without an object." (in= =20 Pathways through to Space & Philosophy of Consciousness without an=20 object)
 
Perhaps= a=20 different kind of question is,  ""What is the difference between the= =20 unmanifested ONE and the manifested ONE?"
 
The con= ceptual=20 mind adds and subtracts and either ends up in duality "2" or nothing= ,=20 "0".
 
The=20 heart senses the ONE is in the ONE.
 
The hea= rt can live=20 with the paradox that the ONE is in the OTHER and yet is always 'empty of= =20 other-ness'.
 
Another= kind of=20 question is,  "What is the difference between the 1 and the=20 10?
 
How do = we just=20 sense into that... within ourselves...? 
 
... the= ONE that=20 is in the ONE and is everywhere
.= .. the O=20 that is also the ONE which is nowhere... because it cannot be limited to = any=20 'one' place or time.
 
"= "The=20 One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere= and=20 everywhere..."  (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p 11)=20
 
J= ust some=20 reflections to add to yours.
 
a= ll the=20 best,
 
Peter
 
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter=20 [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: 05 December 2000=20 16:39
To: Esoteric Science; theos-talk@theosophy.com
Cc:<= /B>=20 poles@iitp.ru
Subject: Theos-World=20 Consciousness/Unconsciousness

Big question:  What is the differ= ence=20 between 1 and 0?(same as between 10 and 0)
 
Using set notation and praying for=20 clarity:
 
zero or =20 (        )
 
one or (  (  ) =20 )
 

------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C05F5D.E51D8C10-- From arthra999@yahoo.com Wed Dec 06 09:44:41 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 17:44:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 68884 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 17:44:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 17:44:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 17:44:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.100] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2000 17:44:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:43:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Advice from Krishnamurti: Message-ID: <90ltrg+5um1@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1632 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.200 From: arthra999@yahoo.com =A0 To climb high one must begin low Religious organizations become as fixed and as rigid as the=20 thoughts of those who belong to them. Life is a constant change,=20 a continual becoming, a ceaseless revolution, and because an=20 organization can never be pliable, it stands in the way of change;=20 it becomes reactionary to protect itself. The search for truth is=20 individual, not congregational. To commune with the real there=20 must be aloneness, not isolation but freedom from all influence=20 and opinion. Organizations of thought inevitably become=20 hindrances to thought.=20 As you yourself are aware, the greed for power is almost=20 inexhaustible in a so-called spiritual organization; this greed is=20 covered over by all kinds of sweet and official-sounding words,=20 but the canker of avariciousness, pride and antagonism is=20 nourished and shared. From this grow conflict, intolerance,=20 sectarianism and other ugly manifestations.=20 Would it not be wiser to have small informed groups of twenty or=20 twenty-five persons, without dues or membership, meeting=20 where it is convenient to discuss gently the approach to reality?=20 To prevent any group from becoming exclusive, each member=20 could from time to time encourage and perhaps join another=20 small group; thus it would be extensive, not narrow and=20 parochial.=20 To climb high one must begin low. Out of this small beginning=20 one may help to create a more sane and happy world. -Krishnamurti The Book of Life:=20 Daily Meditations with J. Krishnamurti December Chapter ...........................................................................= =3D=0D ................................... From sdtheosophy@aol.com Wed Dec 06 12:53:47 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: SDTHEOSOPHY@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 20:53:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 68957 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 20:53:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 20:53:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r20.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.162) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 20:53:44 -0000 Received: from SDTHEOSOPHY@aol.com by imo-r20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.34.) id a.bc.d39edb1 (4010) for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:53:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:53:37 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RACISM & the SD To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 117 From: sdtheosophy@aol.com From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Wed Dec 06 15:47:59 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 6 Dec 2000 23:47:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 59674 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2000 23:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2000 23:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.176) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Dec 2000 23:47:58 -0000 Received: from modem-1.keyhole-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.34.1] helo=pbncomputer) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 143oHp-0008OK-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:47:55 +0000 Message-ID: <00c601c05fdf$30de61c0$0122893e@pbncomputer> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:51:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:26 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLE= S APART > Dec 4th 2000 >=20 > Dear friend/s: >=20 > I agree that in no way the exponent of a philosophy which is > based on UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD can in any way be considered a > narrow and bigoted racist. > HPB is most careful to explain that the special use of the word > "RACE" is entirely different from the way in which the word is > ordinarily used. If anything it also indicates a division of > time during which evolution takes another series of steps with > the help of all those involved in a specific area and condition. >=20 > If anything it might be said that a group of Egos with similar > broad PERSONAL characteristics are drawn by their individual > KARMA to incarnate together. A "race" arises, lives for a few > centuries and when the need for that kind of a personal > environment changes, the quality of the Egos that incarnate also > changes and the "race: may then decline and eventually disappear. Perhaps it would be an idea to think of "Race" in terms of consciousness ev= olution rather than Physical/material evolution. The quality of an ego would seem to imply the stage of consciousness of an = ego and also of the group of egoes which would make up the larger "Racial" grou= p. As mentioned, the use and meaning of the term "Race" has been debased over time. This is no dought a reflection of the selfish materialism of our= age. I hope this is not seen as an intrusion, and thankyou for your time. Jeremy. From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 06 20:23:42 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 04:23:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 73516 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 04:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 04:23:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r16.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.70) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2000 05:24:46 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.34.) id a.9b.dc77aba (3977) for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:23:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9b.dc77aba.27606aca@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:23:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 56 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/06/00 11:20:39 AM, Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: >Perhaps the mind is the resolving aspect of the question: >What is the difference between zero and one? Yes... And my mind tells me that no matter how we think about it -- mathematically (algebraically, geometrically, differentially, integrally, multidimensionally, tensorially), intuitively, theosophically, or otherwise -- the difference between zero and one is *always* ONE. As the Book of Dzyan (with an added Kabbalistic interpretation) teaches, "The 3, the 1, the 4, the 1, the five, the twice 7 (is 14), the sum total" -- and that is 5, which doubled is 10, and that ALL, is ONE. (Yod Hay [Shin] Vo Hay <--> "I AM THAT I AM") Therefore, there is no such *thing* as "zero." Simple, isn't it? So, my advice is... We shouldn't waste our minds (and our time or energy) thinking (or talking about it. (Or, should we say, "forgeddaboudit"?:-) Just BE IT. LHM From info@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Dec 07 07:04:40 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 15:04:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 6317 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 15:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 15:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2000 15:04:39 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D1201DCFA3B; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:58:31 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D15000133D5@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:58:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <8vjt2g+m6kq@eGroups.com> Subject: RE: Aurobindo on Master KH Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Art wrote in reply to Daniel: > I hadn't heard of that before and your suggestion it was a poem=20 >led me to consult my own volume of the "Collected Poems- The=20 >Complete Poetical Works"- 1989 edition of Sri Aurobindo! > >Sure enough on page 83 is a poem entitled " The Mahatmas"... >>Being fair about this I doubt we could say this is any evidence of=20 >Sri Aurobindo having seen or met Kuthumi, but nice try anyway. Daniel replies: Art, the 2 poems are certainly not evidence that Sri Aurobindo saw or met Kuthumi. But that is not what I said. Aurobindo's OWN WORDS are as follows: "Once when I was practising yoga, He whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. came and stood before me and watched my yoga. I requested him to accept me as his disciple; but he said, 'Your=20 Master is different.'" Quoted on p. 214 of HAMMER ON THE=20 MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet. I believe I verified that this quote is from MAHAYOGI SRI AUROBINDO by Diwaker. Art, these words of Aurobindo are not part of any poem but apparently what he wrote about an experience he had. I see no "literary device" here. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Dec 07 09:16:59 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 17:16:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 65857 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 17:16:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 17:16:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2000 18:18:03 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.123] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2000 17:16:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:16:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Message-ID: <90ogm0+8onh@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39FF3D15000133D5@mail01.san.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3146 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.136 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" wrote: > > Art wrote in reply to Daniel: > > > I hadn't heard of that before and your suggestion it was a poem > >led me to consult my own volume of the "Collected Poems- The > >Complete Poetical Works"- 1989 edition of Sri Aurobindo! > > > >Sure enough on page 83 is a poem entitled " The Mahatmas"... > >>Being fair about this I doubt we could say this is any evidence of > >Sri Aurobindo having seen or met Kuthumi, but nice try anyway. > > Daniel replies: > > Art, the 2 poems are certainly not evidence > that Sri Aurobindo saw or met Kuthumi. > > But that is not what I said. > > Aurobindo's OWN WORDS are as follows: > > "Once when I was practising yoga, He > whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. > came and stood before me and watched > my yoga. I requested him to accept me > as his disciple; but he said, 'Your > Master is different.'" > > Quoted on p. 214 of HAMMER ON THE > MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet. I believe > I verified that this quote > is from MAHAYOGI SRI AUROBINDO by Diwaker. > > Art, these words of Aurobindo are not part of > any poem but apparently what he wrote > about an experience he had. I see > no "literary device" here. > > --------------------------------------- > Daniel H. Caldwell Thank you Daniel And as I said i had not heard of the sources you mentioned before... that's why i was appreciative when you did site the poem. The books you mentioned Hammer on the Mountain and Mahayogi are not generally available as they are apparently no longer in print. I notice the sources you mention are not citations from any of Aurobindo's writings that are generally accepted and available. The poem would indicate though that he used "Kuthumi" at least in a literary way. The poem as you said is not an evidence. Generally, a context is provided when one is using a source and other than a statement from you that these are Aurobindo's words, we are left with little . Aurobindo wrote and talked about a vast number of issues and it would interest me to know what if anything he said about the "theosophical mahatmas".... I'm still open to explore this area with you. On another note, I also came across an interesting reference in my reading about Swami Vivekananda having met Col. Olcott before he travelled to America to speak before the World Parliament of Religions in 1893. It's found in The Life of Vivekananda by Romain Rolland. In a footnote on page 5, it says, "...on the eve of his departure for America,...he (Swami Vivekananda) went to Colonel Olcott, then President of the Theosophical Society for letters of introductionto America, it was under the name of Satchidananda that Col. Olcott knew himand instead of recommending him to his friends in America, warned them against him.." I was curious to know from your sources whether you have any references on this from Col. Olcott's side. It would appear that Vivekananda at least in some respects saw the Theosophical Society as an important resource before he embarked to America. Sincerely, Arthur Gregory From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 07 14:09:01 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 22:09:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 67672 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 22:09:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 22:09:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2000 22:09:00 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0517.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.7]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09362; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:08:51 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:05:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c601c05fdf$30de61c0$0122893e@pbncomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 7, 2000 Re: Theosophical use of the word "RACE". Dear Jeremy: Please let me offer some ideas acquired from a long study of the S.D. Theosophical use of the word: "Race." Looking through the explanations given in Vol. 1 of the SD one finds H.P.B. has used it to indicate a period of about 7 times 210,000 years (the cycle of a "sub-race" of which there are 7 in a "Race" [ S.D. II 434-436, 68-70; S.D. I 200-202 ] ( about 1,470,000 years ? ) She also indicates [S.D. I 181-2 ] that the process of evolution involves three strands of development. THREE LINES of EVOLUTION 1. the "MONADIC or Spiritual" (as Wisdom -- knowledge plus compassion), 2. The "Intellectual" (which includes the volition, will, desire, etc...) and, 3. the "Physical" (which includes form, and the aggregation of "skandhas -- little lives" which were used and impressed with our thought and desires in past incarnations -- they return to us, under Karma, to frame the personal environment around us.) 2. The Intellectual -- Our modern psychology after 100 years is leaning more and more to an understanding of this as they disentangle "desire" from "thought and reason." 3. The "Physical" -- or the aggregated "life-atoms" (Monads of lesser experience) which we attract back to us after having impressed them in early years or past lives with the power of our choices and usage. [ Physical includes: 1. the frame-work of electro-magnetic substance called the "Astral body" on which the physical molecules are assembled; 2. the "life-principle" (named Prana or Jiva), and, 3. the Kamic principle or "desires and passions." It may be understood that our Karma is the means whereby the impressions we have laid on these "skandhas" serves to recall them at the appropriate time to again provide us with a "form" in which to live and have further experience. To the extent that we may have improved or degraded them in the past, the present is either assisted or retarded by the impressions that they return to us. ] RACE and REINCARNATION The word "race" is then more a period of time, as all reincarnating MONADS will be re-entering the bodies furnished by Karmic heredity during that vast period of well over 1 million 400,000 years. The average period between reincarnations for humanity is said to be about 1,500 years [KEY pp. 145, 191-2 ] As in any one incarnation we have a tendency to associate ourselves closely to the "personality" in which we temporarily dwell, so we may extend as a personal thought the concept (false) that we are dependent on and closely related to our physical heredity as a member of a race or sub-race (ethnologically) of humanity. TRIBES, ETHNIC RACES, ACCIDENTS, The many groupings of humanity (tribes and ethnic races) from time to time, present groups of reincarnating Egos with the kind of environment and difficulties or opportunities that enable them to deal with those aspects of Karma that they (as a group) have generated or participated in, in the past -- our present always is firmly linked to our past and to that of others. The Karma of individuals may cause them to be distanced (or attracted) at critical times from (or to) a racial area with which they have Karmic links. Providential escapes or involvement may be classified under such a law. HIGHER SELF and BUDDHI-MANAS unaffected by heredity. However since the EGO (Higher MIND -- BUDDHI-MANAS, and the HIGHER SELF -- ATMA-BUDDHI are eternal, universal and impersonal the physical race or heredity is insignificant. That does not mean that our present position as a karmic link with our past is unimportant, any more than a day at school is unimportant to a student. Every life, theosophy says is a learning opportunity for the PERSONALITY (the Lower Manas). PERSONALITY -- its importance If we look at our 4-fold (says Theosophy) PERSONALITY [ physical body, astral framework body, vitality, 'desires and passions' ] we notice that the power to reason and think is not related to them until the mind extends a filament of consciousness to the 'Desire' [KAMA] principle (corresponding to instinct and reaction in plants and animals). When that junction is made, there arises in the DESIRE Principle the "Lower-Manas" or 'Personal Mind' (and all its limitations -- with which we who are in incarnation are continually surrounded). It is this PERSONAL MIND (the Lower Manas) which becomes the "PUPIL" to the wiser and more experienced HIGHER MANAS (Buddhi-Manas) You and me, as "pupils" have an innate urge to grow in understanding, and in such information as will enable us to live a more complete, a 'better' life. PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE We seek to understand the limitations of our 'present.' We seek to discover our 'origins.' We feel that some of our limitations and biases are the result of our "past decisions and choices.' Can we prove this? If such information is available, if we can choose voluntarily to alter the quality of our decisions, then we hope that we can make a 'better future' for ourselves (and others.) These are the things Theosophy puts forward as key concepts to understand the whole evolutionary scheme and the vast periods of time needed for each immortal, Eternal Pilgrim (the MIND-BEING) to develop into a WISE-MAN (BUDDHI-MANAS). The BUDDHAS, RISHIS, MAHATMAS, ADEPTS (Wise and Compassionate Men) The truly Buddhi-Manasic man is a BUDDHA -- a wise one -- who can comprehend the Universe and deal harmoniously at all times, with all its Laws. A BUDDHA stands as one who conceives it his duty to assist and protect with his wisdom. At the same time he may not enforce his wisdom on anyone, as each aspirant who truly seeks to become wise has to generate voluntarily and sustain impersonally his innate urge to perfect and purify his own "lower nature." Each MONAD, whether in the "human stage" or otherwise, has always the potential of becoming divine after aeons of time, by the power of its own WILL and self-purificatory efforts. In this we are all BROTHERS. Keeping this one thought constantly in mind, we will want to purify our desires, thoughts and actions. This is the single great secret of all Time. But, it takes every MONAD to reach the stage of being able to employ the "universality inherent in the human mind" to envisage it. With this as aim, the unity of the WHOLE is made his focus, and superficial differences are abandoned -- they loose importance - as do all minor illusions. PERFECTION -- IS IT AN ULTIMATE ? The ultimate perfection is the ability to perceive the truth, function and necessity of all beings, whether these be 'visible' or 'invisible' on other planes of 'SPACE.' Perception has then to be moderated by the impersonal volition to abide by and teach the "LAW." [ Harmony and Equilibrium are the fundamental LAWS of Nature -- universal KARMA . (S.D. II 420, ML 141) Perfection as a goal is always receding. "One may enter the Light, but one may not touch the Flame." [ VOICE OF THE SILENCE]. As a guide and assistance, H.P.B.'s THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE ought to be made a daily companion for study, and mediation on the meaning behind the statements made there. The PURPOSE of MANVANTARIC CYCLES of EVOLUTION If we refer to H.P.B.'s S.D. Vol. I pp 158-160, 200-202, we will find she shows a Manvantara consists of 7 GLOBES (three show "SPIRIT" descending into "matter"; GLOBE D is at the point of equilibrium. The S.D. states he have passed the point of Equilibrium for this Manvantara and we are now on the ascending side back towards our "Spiritual" beginnings, plus all the experience gained in this cycle; (our position in evolution is: GLOBE "D", RACE 5 (Aryan --or ":Noble"), 5th SUB-RACE. We have passed the mid-point of this Manvantaric cycle of Evolution (S.D. I 185-6, II 69fn, 249,) H.P.B. says on S.D. I 200 footnote that the planes of consciousness are a different matter, and are dealt with separately. There is much to learn, but the practical application to our lives will be found allegorically in the need to apprehend the ethico-moral effect of our every choice, feeling and thought -- those affect our personal Karma and directly impact the "little-lives" (the Monads of lesser experience for whose tutelage we are responsible). As we become wiser, so does their area of intelligent experience also widen and deepen. If any aspects of this remain unclear, please ask or inquire and an endeavor will be made to explain from H.P.B.'s S.D. Best wishes, Dallas W. Dallas TenBroeck ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Condick [mailto:jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:51 PM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:26 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART > Dec 4th 2000 > > Dear friend/s: > > I agree that in no way the exponent of a philosophy which is > based on UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD can in any way be considered a > narrow and bigoted racist. > HPB is most careful to explain that the special use of the word > "RACE" is entirely different from the way in which the word is > ordinarily used. If anything it also indicates a division of > time during which evolution takes another series of steps with > the help of all those involved in a specific area and condition. > > If anything it might be said that a group of Egos with similar > broad PERSONAL characteristics are drawn by their individual > KARMA to incarnate together. A "race" arises, lives for a few > centuries and when the need for that kind of a personal > environment changes, the quality of the Egos that incarnate also > changes and the "race: may then decline and eventually disappear. Perhaps it would be an idea to think of "Race" in terms of consciousness evolution rather than Physical/material evolution. The quality of an ego would seem to imply the stage of consciousness of an ego and also of the group of egoes which would make up the larger "Racial" group. As mentioned, the use and meaning of the term "Race" has been debased over time. This is no dought a reflection of the selfish materialism of our age. I hope this is not seen as an intrusion, and thankyou for your time. Jeremy. -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/1/_/224922/_/976146479/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----_-> From teos9@aol.com Thu Dec 07 14:54:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 22:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 97854 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 22:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 22:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2000 22:54:14 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.34.) id a.ac.e2719aa (2169) for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:53:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:53:53 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 123 From: teos9@aol.com In a message dated 12/06/00 6:50:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk writes: > Perhaps it would be an idea to think of "Race" in terms of consciousness > evolution > rather than Physical/material evolution. > The quality of an ego would seem to imply the stage of consciousness of an > ego > and also of the group of egoes which would make up the larger "Racial" group. > > > As mentioned, the use and meaning of the term "Race" has been debased > over time. This is no dought a reflection of the selfish materialism of our > age. > > I hope this is not seen as an intrusion, and thankyou for your time. > > Jeremy. > > Not an intrusion at all Jeremy. As a matter of fact you and Dallas bring up some good points, on which, I would like to comment. It doesn't matter what terms we use Jeremy, or how we think about it. We all KNOW what we are talking about. The hatred of other human beings because of perceptual differences is a universal characteristic of our humanity in this, or any other physical 'RACE' incarnation, through which, our spiritual identities are expressing themselves. The evidence seems to indicate that this quality along with others i.e. greed, envy, dishonesty, etc., have been around as long as there has been human races. If indeed, humankind is advancing towards a more accurate reflection of its Divine nature. One whose consciousness embodies the benevolent actions of a compassion-actualized physical species, then it behooves us to take a better look at where we are right now and begin to acknowledge the immensity of the task before us. Expunging the unwanted qualities mentioned above from the human heart, which we all share, is the work of many more lifetime. Judging from the cyclic rise and fall of past root races and sub races, along with the sad showing we have made in this sub race, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that we are still "babes in the woods" when it comes to actualizing ourselves as an enlightened species. It is a cosmic journey that we are on indeed, perhaps just beginning. There will be much to see and do along the way, before we take our place as cosmic citizens. That said, let us each begin to practice an act of conscious evolution by accepting the responsibilities and consequences of our present failings and weakness. Let us stop pointing the finger of guilt hither and yon and let it begin to turn inward and come to rest where the cause, in fact, where all causes, truly originate. Louis From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Dec 07 15:35:11 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 7 Dec 2000 23:35:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 74750 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2000 23:35:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2000 23:35:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 00:36:16 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id PAA28017 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id PAA28005 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:35:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004d01c060a7$2cb30ab0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <90ltrg+5um1@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Advice from Krishnamurti: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:56:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" But there is no freedom without discipline and organization. There can be no harmony without conflict; no purity without defilement. This morning I was reading Garma Chang on the train. Later. . . . waiting for connecting bus. Across the road. . . . Los Angeles County Prison. Freedom, I thought. . . . freedom. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:43 AM Subject: Theos-World Advice from Krishnamurti: > > To climb high one must begin low > Religious organizations become as fixed and as rigid as the > thoughts of those who belong to them. Life is a constant change, > a continual becoming, a ceaseless revolution, and because an > organization can never be pliable, it stands in the way of change; > it becomes reactionary to protect itself. The search for truth is > individual, not congregational. To commune with the real there > must be aloneness, not isolation but freedom from all influence > and opinion. Organizations of thought inevitably become > hindrances to thought. > > As you yourself are aware, the greed for power is almost > inexhaustible in a so-called spiritual organization; this greed is > covered over by all kinds of sweet and official-sounding words, > but the canker of avariciousness, pride and antagonism is > nourished and shared. From this grow conflict, intolerance, > sectarianism and other ugly manifestations. > > Would it not be wiser to have small informed groups of twenty or > twenty-five persons, without dues or membership, meeting > where it is convenient to discuss gently the approach to reality? > To prevent any group from becoming exclusive, each member > could from time to time encourage and perhaps join another > small group; thus it would be extensive, not narrow and > parochial. > > To climb high one must begin low. Out of this small beginning > one may help to create a more sane and happy world. > > -Krishnamurti > > The Book of Life: > Daily Meditations with J. Krishnamurti > December Chapter > > > > ...........................................................................= > ................................... > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Dec 07 16:22:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 00:22:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 70425 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 00:22:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 00:22:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 00:22:14 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id QAA16031 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id QAA16025 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:22:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007601c060ad$c0158b60$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <00c601c05fdf$30de61c0$0122893e@pbncomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:27:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Jeremy, Right on. I agree. Substance is polarized into the spiritual substance and the material substance like energy and matter. The black lodge uses the word race in the material sense. The white lodge uses the word race in the spiritual sense. The aryan race is developing the mental state of consciousness like the atlantean developed the emotion; the lemurian developed the physical and the future sixth race will develop the buddhic-intuitive state of consciousness. Thinking humanity is the new race now being developed. All thinkers are together no matter the physical vehicle, religion, etc. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Condick" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:26 AM > Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART > > > > Dec 4th 2000 > > > > Dear friend/s: > > > > I agree that in no way the exponent of a philosophy which is > > based on UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD can in any way be considered a > > narrow and bigoted racist. > > > HPB is most careful to explain that the special use of the word > > "RACE" is entirely different from the way in which the word is > > ordinarily used. If anything it also indicates a division of > > time during which evolution takes another series of steps with > > the help of all those involved in a specific area and condition. > > > > If anything it might be said that a group of Egos with similar > > broad PERSONAL characteristics are drawn by their individual > > KARMA to incarnate together. A "race" arises, lives for a few > > centuries and when the need for that kind of a personal > > environment changes, the quality of the Egos that incarnate also > > changes and the "race: may then decline and eventually disappear. > > Perhaps it would be an idea to think of "Race" in terms of consciousness evolution > rather than Physical/material evolution. > The quality of an ego would seem to imply the stage of consciousness of an ego > and also of the group of egoes which would make up the larger "Racial" group. > > As mentioned, the use and meaning of the term "Race" has been debased > over time. This is no dought a reflection of the selfish materialism of our age. > > I hope this is not seen as an intrusion, and thankyou for your time. > > Jeremy. > > > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Dec 07 16:31:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 00:31:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 67419 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 00:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 00:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 00:31:42 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id QAA18935 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id QAA18930 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:31:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007f01c060af$12af3730$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <9b.dc77aba.27606aca@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:36:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Leon, Yes. But, but, but . . . . To be or not to be . . . . To be. But there is THAT beyond being- not being, not not-being but both. THAT be-ness attracts us "upwards into pure and perfect being, into pure and perfected oneness. Zero is not a thing, but no-thing, Ain-Sof. Through THAT we contact and can then be the NON-BEING. Atma is Anatma. Athesim and theism are one. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness/Unconsciousness > > In a message dated 12/06/00 11:20:39 AM, Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: > > >Perhaps the mind is the resolving aspect of the question: > >What is the difference between zero and one? > > Yes... And my mind tells me that no matter how we think about it -- > mathematically (algebraically, geometrically, differentially, integrally, > multidimensionally, tensorially), intuitively, theosophically, or otherwise > -- the difference between zero and one is *always* ONE. > > As the Book of Dzyan (with an added Kabbalistic interpretation) teaches, "The > 3, the 1, the 4, the 1, the five, the twice 7 (is 14), the sum total" -- and > that is 5, which doubled is 10, and that ALL, is ONE. (Yod Hay [Shin] Vo Hay > <--> "I AM THAT I AM") Therefore, there is no such *thing* as "zero." > > Simple, isn't it? > > So, my advice is... We shouldn't waste our minds (and our time or energy) > thinking (or talking about it. (Or, should we say, "forgeddaboudit"?:-) Just > BE IT. > > LHM > > > > > From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Dec 07 17:35:40 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 01:35:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 69122 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 01:35:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 01:35:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 01:35:40 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.101] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2000 01:35:40 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 01:35:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Message-ID: <90pdt2+lfjd@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <90ogm0+8onh@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4247 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.200 From: arthra999@yahoo.com "Talks with Sri Aurobindo" CopyRight reserved by Sri Aurobindo Ashram 15 August, 1966 pp. 36-37 Daniel, I did find an additional reference by Sri Aurobindo to Kuthoomi from a book "Talks with Sri Aurobindo": December 14, 1938 The talk turned to theosophy. Dr. M.: The theosophists speak of mahatmas from who they receive messages. Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Moria and Koothoomi are two of their Mahatmas. The Mahatmas are said to be living somewhere in Bhutan among rishis who are thousands of years old, I hear. Dr. M.: Not true? You wrote a long time ago a poem on koothumi in the Standard Bearer. From it we have thought of a being with great spiritual realisation. Sri Aurobindo: it was purely a play of the poetic imagination. Dr. M.: What do you think of Madame Blavatsky? Sri Aurobindo: She was a remarkablewoman. - Art --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, arthra999@y... wrote: > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" > wrote: > > > > Art wrote in reply to Daniel: > > > > > I hadn't heard of that before and your suggestion it was a > poem > > >led me to consult my own volume of the "Collected Poems- > The > > >Complete Poetical Works"- 1989 edition of Sri Aurobindo! > > > > > >Sure enough on page 83 is a poem entitled " The > Mahatmas"... > > >>Being fair about this I doubt we could say this is any > evidence of > > >Sri Aurobindo having seen or met Kuthumi, but nice try > anyway. > > > > Daniel replies: > > > > Art, the 2 poems are certainly not evidence > > that Sri Aurobindo saw or met Kuthumi. > > > > But that is not what I said. > > > > Aurobindo's OWN WORDS are as follows: > > > > "Once when I was practising yoga, He > > whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. > > came and stood before me and watched > > my yoga. I requested him to accept me > > as his disciple; but he said, 'Your > > Master is different.'" > > > > Quoted on p. 214 of HAMMER ON THE > > MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet. I believe > > I verified that this quote > > is from MAHAYOGI SRI AUROBINDO by Diwaker. > > > > Art, these words of Aurobindo are not part of > > any poem but apparently what he wrote > > about an experience he had. I see > > no "literary device" here. > > > > --------------------------------------- > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > Thank you Daniel > > And as I said i had not heard of the sources you mentioned > before... that's why i was appreciative when you did site the > poem. > > The books you mentioned Hammer on the Mountain and > Mahayogi are not generally available as they are apparently no > longer in print. > > I notice the sources you mention are not citations from any of > Aurobindo's writings that are generally accepted and available. > The poem would indicate though that he used "Kuthumi" at least > in a literary way. The poem as you said is not an evidence. > > Generally, a context is provided when one is using a source and > other than a statement from you that these are Aurobindo's > words, we are left with little . > > Aurobindo wrote and talked about a vast number of issues and it > would interest me to know what if anything he said about the > "theosophical mahatmas".... I'm still open to explore this area > with you. > > > > On another note, I also came across an interesting reference in > my reading about Swami Vivekananda having met Col. Olcott > before he travelled to America to speak before the World > Parliament of Religions in 1893. It's found in The Life of > Vivekananda by Romain Rolland. In a footnote on page 5, it > says, "...on the eve of his departure for America,...he (Swami > Vivekananda) went to Colonel Olcott, then President of the > Theosophical Society for letters of introductionto America, it was > under the name of Satchidananda that Col. Olcott knew himand > instead of recommending him to his friends in America, warned > them against him.." > > I was curious to know from your sources whether you have any > references on this from Col. Olcott's side. It would appear that > Vivekananda at least in some respects saw the Theosophical > Society as an important resource before he embarked to > America. > > Sincerely, > > > Arthur Gregory From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Dec 07 17:40:05 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 01:40:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 80764 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 01:40:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 01:40:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 02:41:10 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.66] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2000 01:40:04 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 01:39:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Advice from Krishnamurti: Message-ID: <90pe5f+d5p2@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <004d01c060a7$2cb30ab0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2689 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.200 From: arthra999@yahoo.com Well Gene which do you prefer the life in prison with it's discipline and organization or the life of freedom... This is what i've found in working with people that they respond best to less organization and more spontaneous and receptive to a free atmosphere spiritually. - Art --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Eugene Carpenter" wrote: > But there is no freedom without discipline and organization. There can be > no harmony without conflict; no purity without defilement. > > This morning I was reading Garma Chang on the train. Later. . . . waiting > for connecting bus. Across the road. . . . Los Angeles County Prison. > Freedom, I thought. . . . freedom. > > Gene > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:43 AM > Subject: Theos-World Advice from Krishnamurti: > > > > > > To climb high one must begin low > > Religious organizations become as fixed and as rigid as the > > thoughts of those who belong to them. Life is a constant change, > > a continual becoming, a ceaseless revolution, and because an > > organization can never be pliable, it stands in the way of change; > > it becomes reactionary to protect itself. The search for truth is > > individual, not congregational. To commune with the real there > > must be aloneness, not isolation but freedom from all influence > > and opinion. Organizations of thought inevitably become > > hindrances to thought. > > > > As you yourself are aware, the greed for power is almost > > inexhaustible in a so-called spiritual organization; this greed is > > covered over by all kinds of sweet and official-sounding words, > > but the canker of avariciousness, pride and antagonism is > > nourished and shared. From this grow conflict, intolerance, > > sectarianism and other ugly manifestations. > > > > Would it not be wiser to have small informed groups of twenty or > > twenty-five persons, without dues or membership, meeting > > where it is convenient to discuss gently the approach to reality? > > To prevent any group from becoming exclusive, each member > > could from time to time encourage and perhaps join another > > small group; thus it would be extensive, not narrow and > > parochial. > > > > To climb high one must begin low. Out of this small beginning > > one may help to create a more sane and happy world. > > > > -Krishnamurti > > > > The Book of Life: > > Daily Meditations with J. Krishnamurti > > December Chapter > > > > > > > > > ...........................................................................= > > ................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > From info@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Dec 07 19:14:01 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 03:13:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 29392 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 03:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 03:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 03:13:58 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D1201E0BA5E; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:07:43 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D1500013E48@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:07:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: <39FF3D1500010805@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Subject: Unpublished Mahatma Letters added to Blavatsky Archives Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Unpublished Mahatma Letters have been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc See the new article titled "Mrs. Holloway and the Mahatmas:=20 Published and Unpublished Mahatma=20 Letters to and about Mrs. Laura=20 C. Holloway."=20 Collected and arranged=20 by Daniel H. Caldwell.=20 This article will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Dec 08 04:58:07 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 12:58:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 61686 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 12:58:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 12:58:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphmgaaf.compuserve.com) (149.174.177.155) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 13:59:11 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by sphmgaaf.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id HAA02253 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:58:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:57:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012080757_MC2-BDE0-7F26@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Dear Gene and Jeremy -- Beautiful and I agree: right on. That's what I have learned experientially and personally.=20=20 Thanks, Kat in Italy ------ >Right on. I agree. Substance is polarized into the spiritual substance and the material substance like energy and matter. The black lodge uses the word race in the material sense. The white lodge uses the word race in the spiritual sense. The aryan race is developing the mental state of consciousness like the atlantean developed the emotion; the lemurian developed the physical and the future sixth race will develop the buddhic-intuitive state of consciousness. Thinking humanity is the new race now being developed. All thinkers are together no matter the physical vehicle, religion, etc. < From ringding@blinx.de Fri Dec 08 08:20:41 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 8 Dec 2000 16:20:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 55519 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2000 16:20:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Dec 2000 16:20:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO plato.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Dec 2000 16:20:40 -0000 Received: from captaink (cppp-174.blinx.de [62.96.222.174]) by plato.blinx.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA19323 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:20:38 +0100 Message-ID: <015d01c06132$dea52d80$0100007f@captaink> To: References: <90pdt2+lfjd@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:35:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C0612C.833640C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C0612C.833640C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Art, thank you very much for your quotation. Helps me much and I'll translate it= for the German list: www.egroups.com/group/Theosophie-Dialog=20 Frank ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C0612C.833640C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Art,
thank you very much for your quotation. Helps me mu= ch and=20 I'll translate it for the German list: www.egroups.com/gro= up/Theosophie-Dialog=20
 
Frank
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C0612C.833640C0-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 08 17:33:21 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 01:33:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 57621 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 01:33:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 01:33:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 01:33:20 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0990.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.247.225]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19327; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:33:17 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:30:19 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 8, 2000 Dear Friends: On this subject of "Race" I was just reading what H.P.B. had to say about this in S.D. Vol. II --see pp. 434-5. Then on pp. S.D. II 443-446 she says a good deal about our present Race, the Americas and a new sub-race developing on it, and its relation to the Atlanteans and to the future 6th and 7th Races to come. It is all worth reading and then thinking about. Best wishes, Dal W. Dallas TenBroeck -----Original Message----- From: teos9@aol.com [mailto:teos9@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 2:54 PM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism POLES APART In a message dated 12/06/00 6:50:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk writes: > Perhaps it would be an idea to think of "Race" in terms of consciousness > evolution > rather than Physical/material evolution. > The quality of an ego would seem to imply the stage of consciousness of an > ego > and also of the group of egoes which would make up the larger "Racial" group. > > > As mentioned, the use and meaning of the term "Race" has been debased > over time. This is no dought a reflection of the selfish materialism of our > age. > > I hope this is not seen as an intrusion, and thankyou for your time. > > Jeremy. > > Not an intrusion at all Jeremy. As a matter of fact you and Dallas bring up some good points, on which, I would like to comment. It doesn't matter what terms we use Jeremy, or how we think about it. We all KNOW what we are talking about. The hatred of other human beings because of perceptual differences is a universal characteristic of our humanity in this, or any other physical 'RACE' incarnation, through which, our spiritual identities are expressing themselves. The evidence seems to indicate that this quality along with others i.e. greed, envy, dishonesty, etc., have been around as long as there has been human races. If indeed, humankind is advancing towards a more accurate reflection of its Divine nature. One whose consciousness embodies the benevolent actions of a compassion-actualized physical species, then it behooves us to take a better look at where we are right now and begin to acknowledge the immensity of the task before us. Expunging the unwanted qualities mentioned above from the human heart, which we all share, is the work of many more lifetime. Judging from the cyclic rise and fall of past root races and sub races, along with the sad showing we have made in this sub race, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that we are still "babes in the woods" when it comes to actualizing ourselves as an enlightened species. It is a cosmic journey that we are on indeed, perhaps just beginning. There will be much to see and do along the way, before we take our place as cosmic citizens. That said, let us each begin to practice an act of conscious evolution by accepting the responsibilities and consequences of our present failings and weakness. Let us stop pointing the finger of guilt hither and yon and let it begin to turn inward and come to rest where the cause, in fact, where all causes, truly originate. Louis -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/1/_/224922/_/976229656/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----_-> From arthra999@yahoo.com Fri Dec 08 21:01:59 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 05:01:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 33357 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 05:01:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 05:01:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hh.egroups.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 06:03:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.67] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2000 05:01:55 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 05:01:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Message-ID: <90sebq+gmbt@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <015d01c06132$dea52d80$0100007f@captaink> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 265 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.199 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Art, > thank you very much for your quotation. Helps me much and I'll translate it for the German list: www.egroups.com/group/Theosophie-Dialog > > Frank Glad to be of service! - Art From arthra999@yahoo.com Sat Dec 09 09:05:06 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 17:05:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 70031 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 17:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 17:05:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ef.egroups.com) (10.1.2.111) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 17:05:05 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.28] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2000 17:05:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 17:04:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Psychic abilities and Spiritual Liberation: Message-ID: <90tonp+cs3v@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1982 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.176 From: arthra999@yahoo.com Some time ago I fell in with some people who were cleaning cabins in the mountains near my home. After we had cleaned a few of these cabins, I was asked if i was interested in attending a seance and having no previous bias one way or the other, I agreed to attend and indicated i was curious about it. I also met the lady who was the Medium. Several people gathered who i had not met before and we sat in a circle in a dimly lit room. The medium began an annoying moan that persisited several minutes and eventually a voice was manifested that moved from participant to participant answering their questions about deceased relatives or devining the condition of each person, describing the aura colors of each... This was a long process and rather drawn out. I recall feeling exhausted and irritated at the time. As the spirit voice eventually reached me, she said i was a "descended master" and had a aura of a rainbow around my person, this was a real shocker to me as i knew i was descended from something but had not considered an Avatar before. The seance ended shortly after and an interesting phenomena occurred. Several members of the group asked my advice on whether to buy a Cadillac or invest money in a scheme or how they could take over a development. At this point i was growing tired of all this and felt a deep frustration and even an anger. I quoted to them the saying of the Buddha: "Be ye lamps unto yourselves!" and do not seek out mediums or others to solve your problems. They responded, but "you're a descended avatat, you can guide us!" Well i had to cut short this whole thing and left that group peremptorily, but never have i forgotten the lesson i learned there. Many seek psychic powers and can even demonstrate them but they are many times on the lower psychic level and have little to do with spiritual liberation. - Arthur Gregory ********************************************************************** From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sat Dec 09 09:19:42 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 17:19:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 91301 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 17:19:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 17:19:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 17:19:41 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001209171940.ZLQL10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org> for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:19:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3269AB.B518A815@wisdomworld.org> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 12:19:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychic abilities and Spiritual Liberation: References: <90tonp+cs3v@eGroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler Based on your experience, some people on this list may find this series of articles from the Wisdom World web site useful and helpful: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/CyclesOfPsychism-Series/index.html Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- This is the "Additional" articles INDEX page: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html This is the "Main Page" of the site: http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- arthra999@yahoo.com wrote: > Some time ago I fell in with some people who were cleaning > cabins in the mountains near my home. After we had cleaned a > few of these cabins, I was asked if i was interested in attending > a seance and having no previous bias one way or the other, I > agreed to attend and indicated i was curious about it. > > I also met the lady who was the Medium. > > Several people gathered who i had not met before and we sat in > a circle in a dimly lit room. The medium began an annoying > moan that persisited several minutes and eventually a voice was > manifested that moved from participant to participant answering > their questions about deceased relatives or devining the > condition of each person, describing the aura colors of each... > This was a long process and rather drawn out. I recall feeling > exhausted and irritated at the time. > > As the spirit voice eventually reached me, she said i was a > "descended master" and had a aura of a rainbow around my > person, this was a real shocker to me as i knew i was > descended from something but had not considered an Avatar > before. The seance ended shortly after and an interesting > phenomena occurred. Several members of the group asked my > advice on whether to buy a Cadillac or invest money in a scheme > or how they could take over a development. > > At this point i was growing tired of all this and felt a deep > frustration and even an anger. I quoted to them the saying of the > Buddha: "Be ye lamps unto yourselves!" and do not seek out > mediums or others to solve your problems. They responded, but > "you're a descended avatat, you can guide us!" Well i had to cut > short this whole thing and left that group peremptorily, but never > have i forgotten the lesson i learned there. Many seek psychic > powers and can even demonstrate them but they are many > times on the lower psychic level and have little to do with spiritual > liberation. > > - Arthur Gregory > > ********************************************************************** > From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 09 09:33:56 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 17:33:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 20237 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 17:33:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 17:33:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 18:35:01 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D1201E7855E; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:27:41 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D1500014A68@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:27:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: <90pdt2+lfjd@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Thank you Art for the transcription below=20 of what Aurobindo said in 1938. But this does not settle the question about what is reportedly said or written by Aurobindo in these words: "Once when I was practising yoga, He whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. came and stood before me and watched my yoga. I requested him to accept me as his disciple; but he said, 'Your Master is different.'" Quoted on p. 214 of HAMMER ON THE MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet. I believe I verified that this quote is from MAHAYOGI SRI AUROBINDO by Diwaker. Are these Aurobindo's words? And when did he speak or write them? Maybe his experience with "K.H." was AFTER Dec. 14, 1938. I am inquiring into this matter and hope to have more information. Daniel -- Original Message -- >"Talks with Sri Aurobindo" >CopyRight reserved by Sri Aurobindo Ashram=20 >15 August, 1966 >pp. 36-37 >Daniel, >I did find an additional reference by Sri Aurobindo to Kuthoomi=20 >from a book "Talks with Sri Aurobindo": > >December 14, 1938 >The talk turned to theosophy. >Dr. M.: The theosophists speak of mahatmas from who they=20 >receive messages. >Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Moria and Koothoomi are two of their=20 >Mahatmas. The Mahatmas are said to be living somewhere in=20 >Bhutan among rishis who are thousands of years old, I hear. >Dr. M.: Not true? You wrote a long time ago a poem on koothumi=20 >in the Standard Bearer. From it we have thought of a being with=20 >great spiritual realisation. >Sri Aurobindo: it was purely a play of the poetic imagination. >Dr. M.: What do you think of Madame Blavatsky? >Sri Aurobindo: She was a remarkablewoman. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From nous@btinternet.com Sat Dec 09 10:21:01 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: nous@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 9 Dec 2000 18:21:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 40427 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2000 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2000 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2000 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from [62.7.47.234] (helo=User) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 144ocE-0000ro-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:20:58 +0000 To: Subject: The motive of Universal Brotherhood paramount. Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:20:46 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <39FF3D1500014A68@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Peter Merriott" Extracts from a letter from a Mahatma to A.P Sinnett. Letter No. 2 Received Simla, October 19th, 1880. Much Esteemed Sir and Brother, We will be at cross purposes in our correspondence until it has been made entirely plain that occult science has its own methods of research as fixed and arbitrary as the methods of its antithesis physical science are in their way. If the latter has its dicta so also has the former; and he who would cross the boundary of the unseen world can no more prescribe how he will proceed than the traveller who tries to penetrate to the inner subterranean recesses of L'Hassa -- the blessed, could show the way to his guide. The mysteries never were, never can be, put within the reach of the general public, not, at least, until that longed for day when our religious philosophy becomes universal. . . . ...Having then expressed therein my opinion that the world in general was unripe for any too staggering proof of occult power, there but remains to deal with the isolated individuals, who seek like yourself to penetrate behind the veil of matter into the world of primal causes, i.e., we need only consider now the cases of yourself and Mr. Hume. This gentleman also, has done me the great honour to address me by name, offering to me a few questions and stating the conditions upon which he would be willing to work for us seriously. But your motives and aspirations being of diametrically opposite character, and hence -- leading to different results I must reply to each of you separately. The first and chief consideration in determining us to accept or reject your offer lies in the inner motive which propels you to seek our instructions, and in a certain sense -- our guidance. The latter in all cases under reserve -- as I understand it, and therefore remaining a question independent of aught else. Now, what are your motives? I may try to define them in their general aspect, leaving details for further consideration. They are: (1) The desire to receive positive and unimpeachable proofs that there really are forces in nature of which science knows nothing; (2) The hope to appropriate them some day -- the sooner the better, for you do not like to wait -- so as to enable yourself -- (a) to demonstrate their existence to a few chosen western minds; (b) to contemplate future life as an objective reality built upon the rock of Knowledge -- not of faith; and (c) to finally learn -- most important this, among all your motives, perhaps, though the most occult and the best guarded -- the whole truth about our Lodges and ourselves; to get, in short, the positive assurance that the "Brothers" -- of whom everyone hears so much and sees so little -- are real entities -- not fictions of a disordered hallucinated brain. Such, viewed in their best light appear to us your "motives" for addressing me. And in the same spirit do I answer them, hoping that my sincerity will not be interpreted in a wrong way or attributed to anything like an unfriendly spirit. To our minds then, these motives, sincere and worthy of every serious consideration from the worldly standpoint, appear -- selfish. (You have to pardon me what you might view as crudeness of language, if your desire really is, that which you profess -- to learn truth and get instruction from us -- who belong to quite a different world from the one you move in.) They are selfish because you must be aware that the chief object of the T.S. is not so much to gratify individual aspirations as to serve our fellow men: and the real value of this term "selfish," which may jar upon your ear, has a peculiar significance with us which it cannot have with you; therefore, and to begin with, you must not accept it otherwise, than in the former sense. Perhaps you will better appreciate our meaning when told that in our view the highest aspirations for the welfare of humanity become tainted with selfishness if, in the mind of the philanthropist there lurks the shadow of desire for self benefit or a tendency to do injustice, even when these exist unconsciously to himself. Yet, you have ever discussed but to put down the idea of a universal Brotherhood, questioned its usefulness, and advised to remodel the T.S. on the principle of a college for the special study of occultism. This, my respected and esteemed friend and Brother -- will never do! Having disposed of "personal motives," let us analyze your "terms" for helping us to do public good. Broadly stated these terms are -- first: that an independent Anglo-Indian Theosophical Society shall be founded through your kind services, in the management of which neither of our present representatives shall have any voice; and second, that one of us shall take the new body "under his patronage," -- be -- "in free and direct communication with its leaders," and afford them "direct proof that he really possessed that superior knowledge of the forces of nature and the attributes of the human soul which would inspire them with proper confidence in his leadership." I have copied your own words, so as to avoid inaccuracy in defining the position. >From your point of view then, those terms may seem so very reasonable as to provoke no dissent; and, indeed, a majority of your countrymen -- if not of Europeans -- might share that opinion. What, will you say, can be more reasonable than to ask that teacher -- anxious to disseminate his knowledge, and pupil -- offering him to do so should be brought face to face and the one give the experimental proofs to the other that his instructions were correct? Man of the world, living in, and in fulI sympathy with it -- you are undoubtedly right. But the men of this other world of ours, untutored in your modes of thought, and who find very hard at times to follow and appreciate the latter, can hardly be blamed for not responding as heartily to your suggestions as in your opinion they deserve. The first and most important of our objections is to be found in our Rules. True, we have our schools and teachers, our neophytes and shaberons (superior adepts), and the door is always opened to the right man who knocks. And, we invariably welcome the new comer; -- only, instead of going over to him he has to come to us. More than that: unless he has reached that point in the path of occultism from which return is impossible, by his having irrevocably pledged himself to our association, we never -- except in cases of utmost moment -- visit him or even cross the threshold of his door in visible appearance.... Koot Hoomi Lal Singh ======== From ramadoss@eden.com Sat Dec 09 16:36:33 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@eden.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 10 Dec 2000 00:36:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 3834 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2000 00:36:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2000 00:36:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VOLTAIRE.stic.net) (204.57.118.5) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Dec 2000 01:37:37 -0000 Received: from mkr ([216.198.61.53]) by VOLTAIRE.stic.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-70040U18500L11000S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:36:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001209183517.0083a570@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:35:17 -0600 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychic abilities and Spiritual Liberation: In-Reply-To: <90tonp+cs3v@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: ramadoss@eden.com Very interesting incident. From what I have seen, those who have a physical "guru", generally treat that person as their free "consultant" on many matters -- from love to money and in most cases they want to delegate the decision making to someone else and content with following someone's decision. They rarely think of growing up and taking decisions on their own. mkr At 05:04 PM 12/09/2000 -0000, you wrote: >Some time ago I fell in with some people who were cleaning >cabins in the mountains near my home. After we had cleaned a >few of these cabins, I was asked if i was interested in attending >a seance and having no previous bias one way or the other, I >agreed to attend and indicated i was curious about it. > >I also met the lady who was the Medium. > >Several people gathered who i had not met before and we sat in >a circle in a dimly lit room. The medium began an annoying >moan that persisited several minutes and eventually a voice was >manifested that moved from participant to participant answering >their questions about deceased relatives or devining the >condition of each person, describing the aura colors of each... >This was a long process and rather drawn out. I recall feeling >exhausted and irritated at the time. > >As the spirit voice eventually reached me, she said i was a >"descended master" and had a aura of a rainbow around my >person, this was a real shocker to me as i knew i was >descended from something but had not considered an Avatar >before. The seance ended shortly after and an interesting >phenomena occurred. Several members of the group asked my >advice on whether to buy a Cadillac or invest money in a scheme >or how they could take over a development. > >At this point i was growing tired of all this and felt a deep >frustration and even an anger. I quoted to them the saying of the >Buddha: "Be ye lamps unto yourselves!" and do not seek out >mediums or others to solve your problems. They responded, but >"you're a descended avatat, you can guide us!" Well i had to cut >short this whole thing and left that group peremptorily, but never >have i forgotten the lesson i learned there. Many seek psychic >powers and can even demonstrate them but they are many >times on the lower psychic level and have little to do with spiritual >liberation. > > >- Arthur Gregory From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Dec 10 05:23:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 10 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 17810 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mo.egroups.com) (10.1.1.34) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.98] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:23:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Aurobindo on Master KH Message-ID: <910049+43u9@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39FF3D1500014A68@mail01.san.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2739 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.213 From: arthra999@yahoo.com Thank you Daniel and I will look forward to your reply. My own understanding is that Sri Aurobindo began his Yoga Sadhana fairly early in his career and so it would be prior to 1938. His well known book The Synthesis of Yoga first appeared in serial form in the ARYA from 1914 to 1921 in four parts, this is from "bibliographical material" attached to the end of the volume i have. I appreciate your interest in this area and if i come across some more biographical material on Sri Aurobindo that relates to the issue I will provide it to you. Your Brother, Arthur Gregory --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" wrote: > > Thank you Art for the transcription below > of what Aurobindo said in 1938. > > But this does not settle the question > about what is reportedly said or written > by Aurobindo in these words: > > "Once when I was practising yoga, He > whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. > came and stood before me and watched > my yoga. I requested him to accept me > as his disciple; but he said, 'Your > Master is different.'" > > Quoted on p. 214 of HAMMER ON THE > MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet. I believe > I verified that this quote > is from MAHAYOGI SRI AUROBINDO by Diwaker. > > Are these Aurobindo's words? And when > did he speak or write them? > > Maybe his experience with "K.H." was > AFTER Dec. 14, 1938. > > I am inquiring into this matter and hope > to have more information. > > Daniel > > > -- Original Message -- > > >"Talks with Sri Aurobindo" > >CopyRight reserved by Sri Aurobindo Ashram > >15 August, 1966 > >pp. 36-37 > >Daniel, > >I did find an additional reference by Sri Aurobindo to Kuthoomi > >from a book "Talks with Sri Aurobindo": > > > >December 14, 1938 > >The talk turned to theosophy. > >Dr. M.: The theosophists speak of mahatmas from who they > >receive messages. > >Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Moria and Koothoomi are two of their > >Mahatmas. The Mahatmas are said to be living somewhere in > >Bhutan among rishis who are thousands of years old, I hear. > >Dr. M.: Not true? You wrote a long time ago a poem on koothumi > >in the Standard Bearer. From it we have thought of a being with > >great spiritual realisation. > >Sri Aurobindo: it was purely a play of the poetic imagination. > >Dr. M.: What do you think of Madame Blavatsky? > >Sri Aurobindo: She was a remarkablewoman. > > > --------------------------------------- > Daniel H. Caldwell > info@b... > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com > http://blavatsky.cc > http://theosophyonthe.net > > You can always access our site by > simply typing into the URL address > bar the following 6 characters: > > hpb.cc > --------------------------------------- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Dec 10 08:19:25 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 10 Dec 2000 16:19:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 75654 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2000 16:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2000 16:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Dec 2000 17:20:29 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA16970 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA16966 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:19:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000b01c062c5$cf1fc8e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <90pe5f+d5p2@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Advice from Krishnamurti: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:25:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Hi Art, The reference may be to the freedom/prison duality in context of the harmony/conflict; soul/body; spirit/matter communtity of pairs of opposites. Then the kicker: Emptiness is form; form is emptiness. Freedom is prison; prison is freedom. Unconventional wisdom or conventional folly? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 5:39 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Advice from Krishnamurti: > Well Gene which do you prefer the life in prison with it's > discipline and organization or the life of freedom... This is what > i've found in working with people that they respond best to less > organization and more spontaneous and receptive to a free > atmosphere spiritually. > > - Art > > > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Eugene Carpenter" > wrote: > > But there is no freedom without discipline and organization. > There can be > > no harmony without conflict; no purity without defilement. > > > > This morning I was reading Garma Chang on the train. Later. . > . . waiting > > for connecting bus. Across the road. . . . Los Angeles County > Prison. > > Freedom, I thought. . . . freedom. > > > > Gene > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:43 AM > > Subject: Theos-World Advice from Krishnamurti: > > > > > > > > > > To climb high one must begin low > > > Religious organizations become as fixed and as rigid as the > > > thoughts of those who belong to them. Life is a constant > change, > > > a continual becoming, a ceaseless revolution, and because > an > > > organization can never be pliable, it stands in the way of > change; > > > it becomes reactionary to protect itself. The search for truth is > > > individual, not congregational. To commune with the real > there > > > must be aloneness, not isolation but freedom from all > influence > > > and opinion. Organizations of thought inevitably become > > > hindrances to thought. > > > > > > As you yourself are aware, the greed for power is almost > > > inexhaustible in a so-called spiritual organization; this greed > is > > > covered over by all kinds of sweet and official-sounding > words, > > > but the canker of avariciousness, pride and antagonism is > > > nourished and shared. From this grow conflict, intolerance, > > > sectarianism and other ugly manifestations. > > > > > > Would it not be wiser to have small informed groups of > twenty or > > > twenty-five persons, without dues or membership, meeting > > > where it is convenient to discuss gently the approach to > reality? > > > To prevent any group from becoming exclusive, each > member > > > could from time to time encourage and perhaps join another > > > small group; thus it would be extensive, not narrow and > > > parochial. > > > > > > To climb high one must begin low. Out of this small > beginning > > > one may help to create a more sane and happy world. > > > > > > -Krishnamurti > > > > > > The Book of Life: > > > Daily Meditations with J. Krishnamurti > > > December Chapter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...........................................................................= > > > ................................... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Sun Dec 10 12:34:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 10 Dec 2000 20:34:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 44508 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2000 20:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2000 20:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail11.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Dec 2000 20:34:16 -0000 Received: from modem-201.keyhole-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.34.201] helo=pbncomputer) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 145DAj-0004Kp-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:34:13 +0000 Message-ID: <006601c062e8$d7ac4560$c922893e@pbncomputer> To: Subject: thankyou. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:26:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" Dear friends, thankyou for your thoughtfull replies. I am finding this list informative and helpfull.=20=20 In goodwill, Jeremy. <<<<>>>> From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Dec 10 13:22:17 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 10 Dec 2000 21:22:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 38280 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2000 21:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2000 21:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mq.egroups.com) (10.1.1.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Dec 2000 21:22:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.119] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Dec 2000 21:22:12 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:22:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Aurobindo's Yoga Sadhana: Message-ID: <910s61+nmkr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3996 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.186 From: arthra999@yahoo.com According to sources available on-line Aurobindo began his Yoga sadhana in 1904 ...this was followed by four years of silence and finally in 1914 he beagn writing about Yoga: During all his stay at Pondicherry from 1910 onward he remained more and more exclusively devoted to his spiritual work and his sadhana. In 1914 after four years of silent Yoga he began the publication of a philosophical monthly, the Arya. Most of his more important works, The Life Divine, The Synthesis of Yoga, Essays on the Gita, The Isha Upanishad, appeared serially in the Arya. These works embodied much of the inner knowledge that had come to him in his practice of Yoga. Others were concerned with the spirit and significance of Indian civilisation and culture (The Foundations of Indian Culture), the true meaning of the Vedas (The Secret of the Veda), the progress of human society (The Human Cycle), the nature and evolution of poetry (The Future Poetry), the possibility of the unification of the human race (The Ideal of Human Unity). At this time also he began to publish his poems, both those written in England and at Baroda and those, fewer in number, added during his period of political activity and in the first years of his residence at Pondicherry. The Arya ceased publication in 1921 after six years and a half of uninterrupted appearance. Sri Aurobindo lived at first in retirement at Pondicherry with four or five disciples. Afterwards more and yet more began to come to him to follow his spiritual path and the number became so large that a community of sadhaks had to be formed for the maintenance and collective guidance of those who had left everything behind for the sake of a higher life. This was the foundation of the Sri Aurobindo Ashram which has less been created than grown around him as its centre. Sri Aurobindo began his practice of Yoga in 1904. At first gathering into it the essential elements of spiritual experience that are gained by the paths of divine communion and spiritual realisation followed till now in India, he passed on in search of a more complete experience uniting and harmonising the two ends of existence, Spirit and Matter. Most ways of Yoga are paths to the Beyond leading to the Spirit and, in the end, away from life; Sri Aurobindo's rises to the Spirit to redescend with its gains bringing the light and power and bliss of the Spirit into life to transform it. Man's present existence in the material world is in this view or vision of things a life in the Ignorance with the Inconscient at its base, but even in its darkness and nescience there are involved the presence and possibilities of the Divine. The created world is not a mistake or a vanity and illusion to be cast aside by the soul returning to heaven or Nirvana, but the scene of a spiritual evolution by which out of this material inconscience is to be manifested progressively the Divine Consciousness in things. Mind is the highest term yet reached in the evolution, but it is not the highest of which it is capable. There is above it a Supermind or eternal Truth-Consciousness which is in its nature the self-aware and self-determining light and power of a Divine Knowledge. Mind is an ignorance seeking after Truth, but this is a self-existent Knowledge harmoniously manifesting the play of its forms and forces. It is only by the descent of this supermind that the perfection dreamed of by all that is highest in humanity can come. It is possible by opening to a greater divine consciousness to rise to this power of light and bliss, discover one's true self, remain in constant union with the Divine and bring down the supramental Force for the transformation of mind and life and body. To realise thispossibility has been the dynamic aim of Sri Aurobindo's Yoga. excerpted from his biography found at http://www.miraura.org/bio/sketch-a.html ********************************************************************** From KArc@compuserve.com Mon Dec 11 02:46:01 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 11 Dec 2000 10:46:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 24527 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 10:46:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2000 10:46:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmbaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.153) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Dec 2000 10:45:59 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id FAA18175 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:45:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:45:38 -0500 Subject: Theos-World Psychic abilities and Spiritual Liberation: Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012110545_MC2-BE1B-CAC3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc To Art, the avatar....at this point, we need CHUCK the heretic. Love kat in Italy From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 07:15:38 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 11 Dec 2000 15:15:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 11360 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 15:15:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Dec 2000 15:15:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c9.egroups.com) (10.1.2.66) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Dec 2000 15:15:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.74] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2000 15:15:35 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:15:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Psychic abilities and Spiritual Liberation: Message-ID: <912r2i+tvpe@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <200012110545_MC2-BE1B-CAC3@compuserve.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 197 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.204 From: arthra999@yahoo.com --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Kathleen Arc wrote: > To Art, the avatar....at this point, we need CHUCK the heretic. Love kat > in Italy Well maybe i'm the heretic-avatar Kat! -Art From arthra999@yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 13:59:28 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 11 Dec 2000 21:59:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 30071 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Dec 2000 23:00:32 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.123] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:59:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Article on "Fictitious Tibet" Message-ID: <913inq+ek3p@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14886 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.185 From: arthra999@yahoo.com I thought I would post the following article as I hadn't seen it=20 before... I'm unfamiliar with the Tibet Society Bulletin. I have to=20 admit to being a "Rampa fan"... enjoyed his books and recall=20 reading many of them. The theosophical section is later in the=20 article and since we were mentioning the "Mahatmas" thought it=20 would be of interest. I'm unsure i subscribe to everthing the=20 writer says but some of it is of interest to those of us who may=20 not be familiar with his views... - Art Fictitious Tibet: The Origin and Persistence of Rampaism=20 by Agehananda Bharati Tibet Society Bulletin, Vol. 7, 1974 Let me first of all stake my claim and explain some terms in the=20 title: an apparently unexterminable tradition of sheer fiction taken=20 as holy fact originated in Europe and America slightly before the=20 turn of the century =97 the brainchild of some fertile writers and=20 orators, a number of core tales about inaccessible Tibetan and=20 Himalayan mystics took shape in contrivedly esoteric writings=20 which gained steady momentum until its culmination in Lama=20 Lobsang Rampa's, alias Mr. Hoskins', fantastically fraudulent=20 output beginning with The Third Eye and its sequels. I call this=20 whole phony tradition "Rampaism" after its phony consummator,=20 Rampa-Hoskins, and his all-too-numerous followers in North=20 America and Europe. This depressing crowd of partly=20 well-meaning, totally uninformed, and seemingly uninformable=20 votaries holds something like this as its modal view: that there=20 is, somewhere hidden in the Himalayas (invariably mis-stressed=20 on the penultimate 'a'), a powerful, mystical, initiate brotherhood=20 of lamas or similar guru adepts, who not only know all the=20 mysteries of the world and the superworld, who not only=20 incorporate and transcend the teachings of Buddhism,=20 Hinduism, and Christianity, but who also master all the occult=20 arts =97 they fly through the air at enormous speeds, they run 400=20 miles at a stretch without break, they appear here and there, and=20 they are arch-and-core advisors to the wise and the great who=20 hide these ultimate links to supreme wisdom and control. In=20 addition, they know all their previous incarnations, and can tell=20 everyone what his incarnations were and are going to be.=20 Geographically, the area where these supergurus reside is=20 nebulously defined as "Tibet," "Himalaya," and it often includes=20 the Ganges and India. This, very briefly, is the somewhat=20 autoerotic creed of a large, and unfortunately still growing, crowd=20 of wide eyed believers in the mysterious East, apropos which my=20 colleague Professor Hurvitz at the University of British Columbia=20 sagaciously remarked that "for these people, the East must be=20 mysterious, otherwise life has no meaning." To put this=20 somewhat less succinctly and more technically, the enormous,=20 pervasive alienation of Euro-America from the religious themes=20 of the Western world, matched with the general disgruntlement,=20 with the superciliously religious in the established churches, the=20 surfeit with scientific models which seem to generate war and=20 destruction, and most recently the proliferating fascination with=20 the exotic for its own sake =97 about which later in greater detail=20 =97 all these contribute to the desperate quest for ideas, rituals,=20 and promises that are different from those of the West, that are=20 distant from the West, and that are easily accessible, without any=20 intellectual effort, without any discursive input. Let me now present an historical sketch of the increasing=20 ingress of pseudo-Orientalia, and specifically of=20 pseudo-Buddhica and pseudo-Tibetica into Europe and=20 America. During my research into ideological change in the=20 Buddhist clergy in Sri Lanka in 1971, I marveled at a painting in a=20 temple in the southernmost part of the island. In a long=20 subterranean corridor, some two hundred vignettes depicting the=20 phases of the dharma from its inception under the Bodhi-tree in=20 Buddhagaya to the foundation of the particular temple, the last=20 one showed a white woman kneeling and bowing down before=20 the image of the Tathagata and two monks administering sil (the=20 five precepts of Thervada Buddhism) to her; behind her, several=20 white men in tropical hats and western suits, one of them=20 bearded. These, so the monk who showed me around informed=20 me, were Mme. Blavatsky and Colonel Olcott embracing=20 Buddhism. This is historically quite correct. The well-meaning=20 American Colonel Olcott and the Russian-born Mme. Blavatsky,=20 founders of the Theosophical Society, did indeed undergo that=20 ceremony of initiation in that shrine in Sri Lanka. Annie Besant=20 became a convert to Mme. Blavatsky, rather than to Buddhism,=20 about a decade later. Leadbetter and other founding members=20 formed the incipient caucus of the Society which still survives,=20 albeit in highly modified and in a largely reduced form when=20 compared to the initial thrust into the religious ideological world=20 of the early 20th century. Now we must distinguish between the=20 genuine and the spurious elements in the movement as it=20 relates to Buddhism. Annie Besant was no doubt a sincere=20 woman; one of the British Empire's most powerful orators,=20 cofounder of the Indian National Congress, and a fine mind,=20 genuinely annoyed at the inanities perpetrated by and=20 constituted in the missionary scene. Col. Olcott was a genuine=20 person, too, concerned with human affairs, and strongly=20 cognizant of religious options other than those of Christianity. But=20 I think Mme. Blavatsky and Leadbetter were frauds, pure and=20 simple. My definition of a fraud or phony does not quite coincide=20 with the usual dictionary meanings of these terms. A phony does=20 not necessarily doubt the theses he or she propounds =97 in fact=20 they can be full believers themselves. But what makes them=20 phonies is their basic attitude of refusal of matching their tenets=20 with those of a genuine tradition, and of imitating lifestyles which=20 are alien to them, by doing things that superficially look part of=20 the lifestyle they imitate, or of imitational lifestyles which simply=20 do not exist in any cultural body, except as idiosyncrasies.=20 Leadbetter wrote about the kundalini, the secret serpent power,=20 and a melee of things exoteric and other which he had picked up=20 from Indian sources in early translations. He never learned any=20 of the primary languages =97 Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan; neither did=20 Besant, Olcott, and Blavatsky. Leadbetter was an aggressive=20 homosexual, and there is no doubt in my mind that he used his=20 esoteric homiletic to seduce young men =97 some of them very=20 famous indeed in later days. Now I don't object to homosexuality=20 =97 I think the Gay Freedom movement is well taken and should=20 succeed. But I do object to utilizing bits of theological or other=20 religious doctrinal material to support one's own aesthetical and=20 sensuous predilections. Hindu Buddhist Tantric texts do indeed=20 use sexual models and analogues in their esoteric tracts, so it is=20 quite in order if scholars and practitioners use these texts in=20 support of their sexual behavior, because the support is=20 objectively there. But no Tantric text implies any but heterosexual=20 relations in its corpus. The most recent authentic presentation of=20 the place of sexuality in Tibetan Tantrism (1) should suffice as a=20 document for the rejection of the esoteric innuendos in=20 Leadbetter's writings. H.V. Guenther, of course, is a valid empire=20 of Buddhist Tibetan studies in and of himself, and it may not be=20 even necessary to quote so exalted a source as his prolific=20 writings in order to dismantle the Blavatsky-to-Rampa type=20 fraudulence; a very average familiarity with Buddhism would do=20 the job. Mme. Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, a multivolume work, is such a=20 melee of horrendous hogwash and of fertile inventions of inane=20 esoterica, that any Buddhist and Tibetan scholar is justified to=20 avoid mentioning it in any context. But it is precisely because=20 serious scholars haven't mentioned this opus that it should be=20 dealt with in a serious publication and in one whose readers are=20 deeply concerned with the true representation of Tibetan lore. In=20 other words, since Blavatsky's work has had signal importance=20 in the genesis and perpetuation of a widespread, weird, fake,=20 and fakish pseudo-Tibetica and pseudo-Buddhica, and since no=20 Tibetologist or Buddhologist would touch her writings with a long=20 pole (no pun intended, Blavatsky is a Russian name, the Polish=20 spelling would be Blavatski), it behooves an anthropologist who=20 works in the Buddhist and Tibetan field to do this job. I don't think=20 that more than five per cent, if that many, of the readers of=20 Lobsang Rampa-Hoskins' work have ever heard about=20 Blavatsky, but Lobsang Rampa-Hoskins must have read them,=20 cover to cover or in excerpts =97 his whole work reeks of=20 Blavatskyisms; and of course, he doesn't quote sources =97 fakes=20 never do. Long before Rampa, the whole range of=20 quasi-mathematical spheres, diagrammatic arrangements,=20 levels of existence of consciousness, master-and-disciplehood,=20 hoisted on a style of self-indulgent, self-aggrandizing rhetoric,=20 was more or less created by Blavatsky. Medieval Christian=20 writers, the Hermetics and a large number of kindred thinkers=20 and their products had indeed presented a wide vista of=20 quasi-mathematical, impressionistic imaginary structures;=20 earlier, of course, Jewish mysticism with kabbalistic, Talmudic,=20 and earlier medieval Rabbinical moorings might have set the=20 example for the medieval Christian writings of this kind, unless=20 the Christian writers were =97 or were also =97 inspired by=20 whatever filtered through to them from the Greek and Hellenic=20 esotericists, the Pythagoreans and a large number of=20 neo-Pythagorean writings spread through the Hellenic world.=20 Medieval Christian scholars did not read Greek, and whatever=20 they did know about these esoteric systems they obtained=20 through Latin translations. Nobody knows to what degree=20 Blavatsky was familiar with any of this. As an anthropologist, I=20 believe in the perennial possibility of independent invention =97=20 people get similar ideas without any necessary mutual=20 communication or diffusion. Be that as it may, Blavatsky's Secret=20 Doctrine and all the subsequent writings of the Esoteric section=20 of the Theosophical Society, later on rechristened "Eastern" to=20 forestall criticisms of mystery-mongering and the pervasive=20 tendency to identify the esoteric with the erotic, rested heavily on=20 such quasi-structural schemes. I do not doubt that in her earlier years, Blavatsky must have been=20 a highly eclectic, voracious reader. But as with all nonscholars in=20 the field of religious systems, she did not unmix the genuine=20 from the phony; she obviously regarded all sources as equally=20 valid. Not knowing any of the primary languages of the=20 Buddhist-Hindu tradition, she had to rely on whatever had been=20 translated. And, as an epiphenomenon to the awakening interest=20 in oriental studies, a large number of unscholarly writings=20 emerged, produced by people who thought, or pretended, that=20 they could get at the meat of the newly discovered wisdom of the=20 East by speculating about it in their own way rather than by being=20 guided by its sources, or by seeking guidance from authentic=20 teachers in those eastern lands. Blavatsky, Besant, and the other founders of the Theosophical=20 movement were of course familiar with other translations then=20 available. The I Ching had just about then been translated into=20 French for the first time, though Richard Wilhelm's classical=20 translation into English was published after the Secret Doctrine.=20 This whole quasi-mathematical, highly self-indulgent=20 speculation, of course, was part of the emotional packet of the=20 Renaissance and the late Middle Ages in general. There is no=20 doubt that esotericism was, always is, a reaction against the=20 official ecclesiastical hierarchy and against the official doctrines.=20 In India and Tibet, esotericization never took to this kind of=20 pseudo-geometrical-mathematical model, since those models=20 were already part of the official, scholarly traditions available. In=20 these two countries, esotericization used what I call=20 psycho-experimentation models, including the erotic, as=20 instruments of opposition and criticism of the official religious=20 establishments. It is quite obvious that Mme. Blavatsky very=20 much identified with this European tradition of opposing the=20 occidental religious belief system by esoteric, i.e.=20 quasi-mathematical, pseudo-scientific speculations and by=20 writings that encompassed diagrammatic representations of a=20 secret universe. The Secret Doctrine and much of the older=20 "Esoteric" (later "Eastern") sections of the Theosophical Society=20 generated a welter of phantasmagoria of a spherical, cyclical,=20 graphic overlay type; the vague acquaintance with mandala=20 paintings in India added zest to these creations. I am just not sure whether Mme. Blavatsky read the serious=20 Hindu and Buddhist literature in translation and commentary=20 available in her days, particularly the Sacred Books of the East,=20 created by Max Mueller in the 80's of the last century. If she did,=20 little of it showed in her writings. One of the most annoying=20 features in the "M Letters" (M for Master) is her use of=20 semi-fictitious names, like "H Master K" (Koot Humi). There is, of=20 course, no such name in an Indian language or in Tibetan. But in=20 the Upanishads, there is a minor rishi mentioned by the=20 obviously non-Indo-European name Kuthumi. Just where she=20 picked it up I don't know but I suspect she might have seen R.E.=20 Hume's Twelve Principal Upanishads which was first published=20 by Oxford University Press in the late '80s of the 19th century. The=20 silly spelling "Koot Hoomi" was probably due to the occidental=20 mystery peddlers' desire to make words sound more interesting=20 by splitting them into a quasi-Chinesse series of letters. The=20 Master Letters signed "K" are quite clearly Blavatsky's own=20 invention; no Indian or Tibetan recluse talks or writes like the=20 European feuilleton writer of the early 20th century. In a passage,=20 "K" (for Koot Hoomi) criticizes a writer for saying that "the sacred=20 man wants the gods to be properly worshipped, a healthy life=20 lived, and women loved." "K" comments "the sacred man wants=20 no such thing, unless he is a Frenchman." The inane stupidity=20 that must have gone into the early converts actually believing that=20 an Indian or Tibetan guru would use these European=20 stereogibes is puzzling. Yet again mundus vult decipi, and if the=20 average Western alien feels she or he can get to the esoteric=20 goods, she or he tends to lower the level of skepticism to a=20 virtual zero. ...........................................................................= =3D=0D ......................................... From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 11 15:52:53 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 11 Dec 2000 23:52:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 48739 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 23:52:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2000 23:52:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Dec 2000 00:53:57 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04217 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:02:55 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0893.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.247.128]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA27539; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:52:40 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Re: bn-sd digest: December 10, 2000 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:49:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dear Mauri, and Rodolfo: Thank you. As Theosophy does not claim to be a dogma or an "ism" which is to be "believed" in. Absolutely nothing is to be taken "on faith." Everything is to be considered in the light of one's developing ability to check out propositions with that which is available to all of us. The entire S.D. and all the literature of H.P.B. and W.Q.J. -- as well as everything else -- has TO STAND ON ITS OWN MERITS. Sometimes we read things we do not understand, but later on (if we have marked and set them aside for future consideration. I was just looking up some meaning in S.D. II and found: In the S.D. (II p. 447) we discover H.P.B. says: " these teachings are as old as the world...the present work is a simple attempt to render [them] ...in a modern language..." She adds that To Fully discern and comprehend them one needs to be "initiated" into the "spirit of archaic philosophy." She then offers a key idea. Embodied in the ancient Sanskrit words SAT and ASAT will be found the philosophical secret of examination and criticism. "ASAT is not merely the negation of SAT, nor is it the "not yet existing;" for SAT is the IMMUTABLE, THE EVER PRESENT, CHANGELESS AND ETERNAL ROOT, from and through which ALL PROCEEDS. But it is far more than the potential force in the SEED, which propels onward the process of...evolution. It is the EVER BECOMING, though the NEVER MANIFESTING." She then adds a paradox: "SAT is born from ASAT, and ASAT is begotten by Sat: the perpetual motion in a circle, truly; yet a circle that can be squared only at the threshold of Paranirvana." It is a good idea to go through the S.D. and make notes concerning the explanations on Symbolism, Numbers, and Geometric figures, as this gives keys to relationships between the divisions and active powers of evolution spoken of in other places. They are the keys to Analogy and Correspondences. Hope this may help. Dallas ============================ -----Original Message----- From: Rodolfo Don [mailto:rdon@garlic.com] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:56 AM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Re: bn-sd digest: December 10, 2000 >"DTB EACH PART ALTHOUGH INDIVIDUAL YET >MIRRORS THE QUALITIES OF ALL THE REST. >BROTHERHOOD is a fact, and a basis for all further >considerations. THE DIVISIONS OF SELFISH >SEPARATENESS LEAD EVENTUALLY NOWHERE >except to confusion. Extend the process and seek for a goal and >you will find only divergence. On the other hand if one uses >cooperation, brotherhood, compassion and the virtues as a base >one grows ever closer to the WHOLE, the ONE CENTER >where all merge into each-other without their loosing their >IDENTITY." >============== > >Dallas, thanks for your thoughtful post. At the stage of >learning/evolution I seem to be in currently, (not having any proof >of theosophic in-depth knowledge), I read your comments and >everybody else's HOPEFULLY, hoping that at some future >more-knowledgable stage in my evolution it will all somehow >come together more-meaningfully from the standpoint of (at least) >a more-direct kind of knowing. > Mauri, you bring an important point in your first paragraph responding to Dallas. What you say is true, however, you also talk about a future stage in your evolution when you will be able to understand about 'brotherhood' in a more-direct kind of knowing. Here I say that only you can make those changes in your thinking. Time alone won't produce the changes. We all know that the answer to the question of 'Universal Brotherhood,' and all other questions pertaining to spirituality reside in the Self. We simply need to validate that with ACTION. We can do it in several ways. We can start by making an honest commitment to the Self and follow that with ACTION. This can be a problem since the mind will try to have an image of the Self and give it attributes. Maybe we can replace the name Self with Truth. Truth has a reality of its own since it projects a meaning of "that which is." Very much like what we need if we are willing to go to the ultimate aspect of truth, and I think we are. Once we start to depend on the Self for fundamental answers and make it our main source for true knowledge, it becomes our main authority in spiritual matters. When that happens a change takes place in the individual who is doing the search. The simplest way to put it in words is: his eyes open. What before was an intelectual picture of some kind, now becomes a fact that nobody else can challenge. That is in a nut shell what happens when we are serious about theosophy. The thing that we have to remember is that ultimately we have to put in practice what we 'know.' We have to live it. I hope that I was able to convey my ideas correctly since this is a difficult subject to discuss in writing. Rodolfo Don -- web: http://www.teosofia.com/ --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6640832V@lists.lyris.net From info@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Dec 11 16:35:35 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 12 Dec 2000 00:35:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 12688 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2000 00:35:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2000 00:35:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 Dec 2000 00:35:34 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D1201F162B7; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:29:24 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D1500015B3F@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:29:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <913inq+ek3p@eGroups.com> Subject: RE: Article on "Fictitious Tibet" Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" I ask Art and others: how many mistakes can you find in this extract BELOW from "Ficitious Tibet"? For example, it would appear that the writer of this article believes that one of the Masters was known by a "semi-fictitious name": "H Master K"=20 Who has ever seen this name in theosophical literature? Why does he put it in italics? Does he mean Master KH? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Daniel "One of the most annoying=20 features in the "M Letters" (M for Master) is her use of=20 semi-fictitious names, like "H Master K" (Koot Humi). There is, of=20 course, no such name in an Indian language or in Tibetan. But in=20 the Upanishads, there is a minor rishi mentioned by the=20 obviously non-Indo-European name Kuthumi. Just where she=20 picked it up I don't know but I suspect she might have seen R.E.=20 Hume's Twelve Principal Upanishads which was first published=20 by Oxford University Press in the late '80s of the 19th century. The=20 silly spelling "Koot Hoomi" was probably due to the occidental=20 mystery peddlers' desire to make words sound more interesting=20 by splitting them into a quasi-Chinesse series of letters. The=20 Master Letters signed "K" are quite clearly Blavatsky's own=20 invention; no Indian or Tibetan recluse talks or writes like the=20 European feuilleton writer of the early 20th century. In a passage,=20 "K" (for Koot Hoomi) criticizes a writer for saying that "the sacred=20 man wants the gods to be properly worshipped, a healthy life=20 lived, and women loved." "K" comments "the sacred man wants=20 no such thing, unless he is a Frenchman." The inane stupidity=20 that must have gone into the early converts actually believing that=20 an Indian or Tibetan guru would use these European=20 stereogibes is puzzling. Yet again mundus vult decipi, and if the=20 average Western alien feels she or he can get to the esoteric=20 goods, she or he tends to lower the level of skepticism to a=20 virtual zero." --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From arthra999@yahoo.com Tue Dec 12 00:42:15 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 12 Dec 2000 08:42:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 61287 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2000 08:42:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2000 08:42:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fg.egroups.com) (10.1.2.134) by mta3 with SMTP; 12 Dec 2000 09:43:20 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.127] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2000 08:42:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:42:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Article on "Fictitious Tibet" Message-ID: <914oct+p17k@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <39FF3D1500015B3F@mail01.san.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3844 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.216 From: arthra999@yahoo.com You can ask me Daniel, but i think this article reflects the views of many serious students of Buddhism today. We should be cognizant of this and as i've urged in the past, review the work that's going on today... new translations and many of the works in English published by Tibetans themselves. The material that can't be supported by careful scholarship needs to be scuttled if we're to have a meaningful dialogue with serious students and seekers. I sense that there was considerable naivete on the part of the founders of our movement over a hundred years ago. Recall the attempted marriage of the TS with the Swami Dayananda's Arya Samaj. I still think a valuable service was provided India by the TS but it was not without it's difficulties. Very few early Theosophists practised Hatha Yoga and I still read the old arguments against Hatha Yoga for instance that were written say sixty years ago and yet Hatha Yoga has become a very strong movement in the USA with people ready to explore the ancient wisdom tradition, but many of us are so behind in the times, we do not respond to this need or interest. Instead of living in the past and delving in who saw a "Mahatma" and who did not, we need to move on... consign these things that have no real utility to "of historical interest only" and move into the twenty first century with our basic theosophic principles. - Arthur Gregory --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" wrote: > > I ask Art and others: how many mistakes can > you find in this extract BELOW from "Ficitious Tibet"? > > For example, it would appear that the writer of this > article believes that one of the > Masters was known by a "semi-fictitious name": > > "H Master K" > > Who has ever seen this name in theosophical > literature? Why does he put it in italics? > > Does he mean Master KH? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Daniel > > "One of the most annoying > features in the "M Letters" (M for Master) is her use of > semi-fictitious names, like "H Master K" (Koot Humi). There is, of > course, no such name in an Indian language or in Tibetan. But in > the Upanishads, there is a minor rishi mentioned by the > obviously non-Indo-European name Kuthumi. Just where she > picked it up I don't know but I suspect she might have seen R.E. > Hume's Twelve Principal Upanishads which was first published > by Oxford University Press in the late '80s of the 19th century. The > silly spelling "Koot Hoomi" was probably due to the occidental > mystery peddlers' desire to make words sound more interesting > by splitting them into a quasi-Chinesse series of letters. The > Master Letters signed "K" are quite clearly Blavatsky's own > invention; no Indian or Tibetan recluse talks or writes like the > European feuilleton writer of the early 20th century. In a passage, > "K" (for Koot Hoomi) criticizes a writer for saying that "the sacred > man wants the gods to be properly worshipped, a healthy life > lived, and women loved." "K" comments "the sacred man wants > no such thing, unless he is a Frenchman." The inane stupidity > that must have gone into the early converts actually believing that > an Indian or Tibetan guru would use these European > stereogibes is puzzling. Yet again mundus vult decipi, and if the > average Western alien feels she or he can get to the esoteric > goods, she or he tends to lower the level of skepticism to a > virtual zero." > > > > --------------------------------------- > Daniel H. Caldwell > info@b... > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com > http://blavatsky.cc > http://theosophyonthe.net > > You can always access our site by > simply typing into the URL address > bar the following 6 characters: > > hpb.cc > --------------------------------------- From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 12 11:54:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 12 Dec 2000 19:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 8700 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2000 19:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2000 19:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 12 Dec 2000 19:54:11 -0000 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10777 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:04:12 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0258.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.245.3]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02826; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:52:34 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Re: The First Fundamental Proposition...continued. Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 12, 2000 Is the purpose of Evolution to add to the number of SPIRITUAL BEINGS ? Dear Compiler, and Friends: As I gather from Theosophy, SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE (The WISDOM OF THE AGES) is the starting point for all evolutionary effort. The Spiritual side of Nature seems well organized. The Material (or form-side) seems at first to be chaotic. The Metaphysical explanations offered concerning "manifestation" (or, the interaction of spirit and matter) appear to start from this duality. As a third (less prominent) but, nevertheless ineradicable factor, is the ABSOLUTE background to everything. It generally passes unnoticed, Yet it has to be considered an ever-present factor. It is the ever-undefinable SOURCE of both Spirit and Matter. From it emerges a faculty of observation, of witnessing, of being able to balance and evaluate all the many levels and kinds of spirit/matter interactions. From and in this are the records of the pathways of experience, these record the activities and the results of the inter-action of all beings. It therefore serves as what we may call in general: the "Laws" of the Universe." In each being one may perceive a level of "consciousness" that relates to the stage of evolution it is in. "Consciousness" seems to be a general term meaning an awareness (more or less focused and directed) of environment, and of the potential results of choice and decision making in regard to one's position in that.) Out of the MONADIC ESSENCE [SPIRIT and PRIMORDIAL MATTER CONJOINED] emerge because of eternal law [KARMA ] individualized MONADS. Spiritual knowledge has to be universally and impartially applied or it ceases to be wisdom and turns into sorcery because of the isolationist and selfish motive of the one who knows a truth, but refuses to use it impartially. This is a difficult concept for many humans still in our present position as lower-Manasic beings, to grasp. It is a concept that raises our motives to the level of being, acting and thinking as higher-Manasic beings ought, and, which we are already in potential. We as a race are on the knife-edge of decision. We determine our motives. Shall they be broadly for the benefit of humanity and the world, or shall they be confined to the small personal "we" that some of us consider so important, that all else does not matter ? To assist we are reminded that the MONAD is an immortal being, and all experience accrues to it. Hence our present personality has value on as one stage among many in a learning process that does not end. MONADS with full experience of the Evolutionary process and which have transcended the bonds of ignorance (Mahatmas, Buddhas, Dhyan-Chohans, Adepts of various levels, etc...) serve the purposes of law (Karma) by acting as its (Nature's) coordinators -- they serve as the cosmocratores and the builders at each Manvantaric dawn, and as "evolution" progresses they become (or a portion of their membership becomes) the teachers, guides and instructors of mankind. [ It might be an interesting exercise at this point in time to ask ourselves why we tend to rebel at the idea of any Law that might govern us, or might hinder the "freedom of expression" which "we" hold so dear. Why does this happen psychologically? Mankind, may be said to consist of those MONADS which are entering the difficult period of self--instruction whereby they become first (lower) self-conscious, then (higher) SELF-conscious and then UNIVERSALLY-SELF-CONSCIOUS -- these 3 grades being the natural development of understanding in regard to the lawful actions of all beings and the CAUSES for the existence of the LAW and the many laws of the UNIVERSAL LAW OF PROGRESS which we call in general: KARMA. As a principle it is always recognized in occultism that the free-will of any human ought never to be interfered with. No coercion, no blind belief. No creeds or dogmas. All progress is by self-induced and self-devised ways and means. We are always teaching ourselves. We determine our rate of progress in self-education. FOHAT is defined as "divine and intelligent electricity." Inasmuch as all "matter" basically can be resolved into atoms and sub-atomic constituents with enormous electro-magnetic strength at those ultra-small levels, the question arises : How and with what sense of order do they draw together, aggregate to form molecules, react under certain circumstances, if they are not internally and externally regulated by intelligence(s) of their own kind of being? And would that not be also ELECTRO-MAGNETIC of a kind and type that belonged to a universal set of Laws ? I am not too clear on the answers to these questions and perhaps you have some ideas. Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:57 AM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Re: The First Fundamental Proposition...continued. Peter, I sure could use some help with this particular way that I am thinking: According to the last paragraph that you quoted (from page 16 in the SD), which folows this one, I get the impression, right or wrong as it may be, that "Fohat" is the guiding force inherent in thought, a force that drives atoms to run up into forms on every plane, no matter how subtle? If so, even though it says, I think, that it is the thought of very advanced Adepts, known also as "Dhyan Chohans", who are at the forefront of evolution, guiding every period of manifestation, are each and every one of us who are not adepts at any level yet, also impressing atoms with the guiding energy ("Fohat"???) of our thoughts so that we too are each somewhat responsible for the forms that they run up into? Am I in any way thinking correctly here? Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- > This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by the > occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the > "Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature." > Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from the > other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all > manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through > the Dhyan Chohans,* the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, > or Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the > several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualised and attains > to self -- or reflective -- consciousness; while Fohat, in its various > manifestations, is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the > animating principle electrifying every atom into life. > (SD I 15-16) > ====================== > > On-line Secret Doctrine, by HPB: > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ > You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [compiler@wisdomworld.org] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6640832V@lists.lyris.net --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6640832V@lists.lyris.net From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Dec 14 18:41:43 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 15 Dec 2000 02:41:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 56970 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2000 02:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2000 02:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Dec 2000 02:40:53 -0000 Received: from SCRIBE.theosophy.com (dsl-64-194-209-113.telocity.com [64.194.209.113]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03002 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:50:51 -0600 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214184011.00a21a20@theosophy.com> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:40:19 -0800 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Winter Solstice talk by Boris de Zirkoff and other online audio files Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker There are two new additions to online files at the mahat list at egroups.com. Additional information is also available on the file that had been previously uploaded. G. de Purucker was the head of the Theosophical Society from 1929 until his death in 1942. (When the original Theosophical Society split in the 1890's, one part had the International Headquarters at Adyar, India. The other part soon moved its International Headquarters to Point Loma, California. Purucker was the head of the Point Loma T.S.) On September 23, 1737, while on a lecture tour of Europe, Purucker gave a talk on Radio AVRO, in Hilversum, The Netherlands. The first file in the archives is a recording of that talk: http://www.egroups.com/files/mahat/audio/purucker/gdp.mp3 The 3055K file contains a talk, in English, 17:22 in length. At the conclusion of the talk, it was summarized in Dutch by Jan H. Venema, President of The Netherlands Section of the Theosophical Society. That talk is the second file: http://www.egroups.com/files/mahat/audio/venema/dut.mp3 It is 443K in size, is in the Dutch language, and lasts 02:30. ---- The third file added is a talk on the spiritual happenings at the time of the Winter Solstice. It is being put online in celebration of this time of year. The talk is by Boris de Zirkoff. It was given December 22, 1973 in Studio City, California. De Zirkoff was editor of THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P. BLAVATSKY for much of his life. The talk was originally 47:25 in length, but to reduce file size (and download times) it was shortened to 35:55 using the shareware sound-editing program, goldwave. (The program did a special "time compression" which makes the file play faster without sounding funny.) The talk is at: http://www.egroups.com/files/mahat/audio/bdz/wtr73f16.mp3 It is 4212K in size. ---- For more information on the mahat list, see: http://www.egroups.com/group/mahat -- From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 15 23:47:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 16 Dec 2000 07:47:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 45251 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2000 07:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2000 07:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Dec 2000 07:47:28 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.34.) id a.73.97dce51 (7941) for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:47:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <73.97dce51.276c780c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:47:24 EST Subject: Re: [bn-sd] The First Fundamental Proposition...continued. To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/07/00 8:01:30 AM, nous@btinternet.com writes: >Friends, > >The previous passage on the one Reality stated that this "ONE ABSOLUTE=20 BE-NESS" is symbolised under two aspects: > >* Absolute abstract SPACE - representing BARE SUBJECTIVITY. > >* Absolute abstract MOTION (the "Great Breath") - representing >UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS. > >This is symbolised by finite intelligence as a trinity. HPB now goes >on to offer some help to us. See below. > >...Peter > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are give= n >here. > >Herbert Spencer has of late so far modified his Agnosticism, as to assert >that the nature of the "First Cause,"* which the Occultist more logically >derives from the "Causeless Cause," the "Eternal," and the "Unknowable," >may be essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up=20 >within us: in short, that the impersonal reality pervading the Kosmos is t= he >pure noumenon of thought. This advance on his part brings him very near=20 >to the esoteric and Vedantin tenet. > >Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute >Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to=20 >conditioned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned >symbol. But once that we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute >Negation, duality supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) >and Matter, Subject and Object. > >Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not >as independent realities, but as the two facets or aspects of the Absolute >(Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether >subjective or objective. > >[footnote ] * The "first" presupposes necessarily something which is the >"first brought forth, the first in time, space, and rank" -- and therefore >finite and conditioned. The "first" cannot be the absolute, for it is a >manifestation. Therefore, Eastern Occultism calls the Abstract All the >"Causeless One Cause," the "Rootless Root," and limits the "First Cause" >to the Logos, in the sense that Plato gives to this term. > >(Secret Doctrine vol 1, pp14-15) In light of the above... And, for the benefit of students who may be=20 interested in obtaining food for thought (or for "meditation with a seed," = as=20 Patanjali puts it), as well as a tool that might be helpful in not only=20 better understanding the relationships between the unmanifest and the=20 manifest, the unconditioned and the conditioned, or subjective and objectiv= e=20 -- but also might enable us to be better able to convince others (who may b= e=20 skeptical of theosophical truths) of the essential trinity in all monadic=20 elements, and the interconnectedness between all of Nature as well as betwe= en=20 spirit, mind, and body (as, also, an essential trinity within a unity) -- a= nd=20 which could serve as a rationale for the idea of "Universal Brotherhood" as= a=20 fundamental law of nature as well as a moral imperative toward achieving=20 correlational harmony between all sentient beings -- I'd like to offer the= =20 following aid to understanding the Universe as an infinite plenum consistin= g=20 of an infinite number of separate duality's within unity's, each being=20 correlative and interdependent parts of one, (over)all encompassing unity o= f=20 infinite potentiality:=20 The basically logical and apparently scientifically and mathematically vali= d=20 presumptive ideas behind this statement (as discussed more fully by HPB in= =20 the Secret Doctrine, and in consistency with the First Fundamental Principl= e=20 elucidated in its Proem) are: 1. The entire manifest universe is spun out of one *Substance*. This=20 "substance" fills all of the noumenal "primal" Space as well as the=20 phenomenal "Space-time Continuum" -- including all the visible and invisibl= e=20 conscious, nonmaterial and material forms" and their associated consciously= =20 experienced phenomena expressed within, interconnected to, and wholly=20 dependent upon it. It also fulfills the theosophical precept that "the cent= er=20 of the universe is everywhere and its circumference nowhere." =20 2. This substance, when manifest, is rooted in, empowered by and generated= =20 from an infinite source of primal Energy which can be described as an=20 absolute, unconditioned reality that is entirely "empty" or absent of any=20 form, attributes or phenomena -- except abstract absolute motion.=20 3. Such "absolute abstract motion," having infinite aspects and zero=20 attributes, cannot be conceptualized, but can only be visualized or imagine= d=20 (by finite minds for purposes of understanding and explanation) as; *spin*= =20 (or "spinergy") -- of an infinite number of "lines of *force* rotating=20 (spinning) on at least three primary axes in at least 3 major and 7 minor=20 orders or phases of nonlinear angular momentum (or "energy in motion")=20 ranging in level from infinity to zero --around a "singularity" or=20 "point-instant" of zero diameter and zero time. Thus, such "spinergy" would= =20 have infinite potentiality of *form*, infinite holographic information=20 carrying ability, as well as *infinite duration* as the root of its synergi= es=20 and transformations in both manifest *space* and *time* =96- while eternall= y=20 carrying within its infinite degrees of abstract motion, the continued memo= ry=20 of all past experiences of any portion (or sub infinite set) of the primal,= =20=20 *origin* that eternally experiences continued cyclic manifestation=20 (Manvantara) and return to its source (Pralaya)... Also known as the "Great= =20 Breath."=20 4. Therefore, all such cyclic manifestation and subsequent involution and=20 evolution in time of the noumenal consciousness-substance, must be ruled --= =20 throughout eternity, and through any and all degrees, planes, fields or=20 levels of manifest phenomenal consciousness (and its coadunate physical=20 matter) -- by the fundamental laws of "cycles and periodicity" inherent in= =20 the spinergy of the primal source... (Leading to the Second Fundamental=20 Principle.) Perhaps, it might help to better visualize this *duality within a unity* of= =20 the (primal field of "Absolute Consciousness-substance" when manifest), if = we=20 look at it from the standpoint of the geometric cyclic structure of the=20 initial ray of noumenal energy as it emanates from the zero-(Laya-) point's= =20 "spinergy", or "abstract motion" of the Absolute or primal "causeless cause= "=20 -- and see that both the source and its manifestation are governed by the=20 fundamental, and immutable Laws of cycles and periodicity... And, further=20 observe that the flow of manifest (or phenomenal) energy through each prima= l=20 field, in order to be contiguous, coterminous and continuous within Space a= nd=20 throughout Time, as well as "dependently arising," universally synergistic,= =20 and without beginning or end -- must follow a 3 cycle twisted spiral path=20 that forms two inner spherical fields of opposite polarity, and thus,=20 opposite characteristics -- which replicates ("As above so below") on all=20 corresponding levels of their continuing involution and evolution.=20 For purposes of such visualization, we might imagine these spherical fields= =20 as a single line of force wrapping around each field in a spiraling pattern= ,=20 like balls of twine one inside the other, or like bubbles within bubbles=20 within bubbles -- as the involution proceeds in manifestation and evolution= .=20 Incidentally, this description is analogous to some of the conclusions of=20 current Superstring/M-brane theories of physics -- which apply, solely to o= ur=20 lower physical plane or field of phenomenal matter. This is consistent wit= h=20 HPB's prophesy that physical science would eventually reach by their own=20 efforts toward the end of the 20th century, almost a complete understanding= =20 of the theosophical laws governing the immutable karmic action of the=20 Universe, both as observed and as intuitively sensed and experienced. If we symbolically visualize this 3-Dimensional (spherical) structure of th= e=20 primal field as a 2-D (circular) cross section, we see that to maintain su= ch=20 a condition of repetitive (or cyclic) eternal continuity in Time, as well a= s=20 its having opposite polarities (or opposite functional characteristics, e.g= .,=20 insubstantial-substantial, spirit-matter, consciousness-unconsciousness,=20 etc.) -- the continuous line of force (or ray) must form an outer, all=20 containing circle -- along with two inner circles (like a figure 8) -- that= =20 are tangentially touching (or crossing through) both the outer circle and t= he=20 central zero- or laya point origin.=20 We also see that the radial flow of the phenomenal or manifest energy ray,= =20 after leaving outward in opposite directions from the (upper) positive pole= =20 of the outer circle, enters, also in opposing directions, at its (lower)=20 negative pole. At each of these outer crossings, the opposing energy flows= =20 would cancel each other out and become neutral or zero, reverting to abstra= ct=20 "spinergy," and creating two new laya-points in addition to the central poi= nt=20 of origin. These three points would correspond (as do the centers of the=20 three circles) to the "three primal centers" HPB speaks of; One such point= =20 corresponding to consciousness related to Spirit or Atma, the second to=20 intuitive wisdom related to the vehicle of spirit or Buddhi, and the third = to=20 experiential knowledge related to Manas -- or, together, to the triadic=20 nature of the Monad. It follows that they would also relate, analogously an= d=20 correspondingly, to; spirit/self, soul/mind, astral form/physical body;=20 Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva; Kether, Binah, Chochma; Mulaprakriti, Perusha,=20 Prakriti; sattva, tamas, rajas, Om, Tat, Sat, etc. -- or pictured as the=20 Chinese symbol of the Tai Chi or "primal beginning."=20=20 Note: It might help to visualize the above by studying the symbolic 3-D cro= ss=20 sectional (2D) diagrams and their theosophical correlation's, at the web pa= ge=20 at: http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html = --=20 and to follow the link on that page to: "Tai Chi Symbol evolved from rotate= d=20 chakrafield diagram")=20=20 =20 Thus, visualizing the spherical fields of initial emanation -- we see that= =20 the upper or positive polar inner sphere would represents the *subjective*= =20 field of manifest Spirit (or Consciousness), while the lower, negative pola= r=20 inner sphere would represent the *objective* field of phenomenal substance= =20 (or Matter)... Both of which would, analogously and correspondingly continu= e=20 their further involutional differentiation's (within manifest Space) along= =20 with their evolutionary changes (in Time)... And, as they descend further=20 into manifestation through descending levels of energy and frequency, each= =20 would generate (within their own separate realms of consciousness and matte= r)=20 inner cyclic duality's of opposite energy polarities (within a continuous=20 unity of all inner descending fields linked through their zero-points to th= e=20 mother field of primal beginning) -- leading to the causes and effects of=20 electricity and magnetism based on fundamental cyclic laws, e.g.,=20 attraction-repulsion, positive-negative, north polarity-south polarity, etc= .=20 -- and would justify the fundamental scientific axioms of perfect symmetry= =20 and conservation of energy, fulfilling the scientific (and theosophical)=20 principle that Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but can only change= =20 its state of being.=20 It would also give us the basis of understanding the immutable workings of= =20 Karma... Since, all processes of universal and individual consciousness, mi= nd=20 and matter, would be *resonantly* interrelated and thus capable of=20 transferring the positive or negative forces or energies of both causes and= =20 effects (along with the holographic, interference patterned memory of each)= =20 -- one leading to the other, and linked in eternal cycles of action-reactio= n=20 (equivalent to the parable, "As we sow, so shall we reap") -- with no limit= s=20 imposed by Time, Space, degree of Substantiality, or plane of Consciousness= =20 that such karmic action occurs within. Thus, all things or "beings" in the universe, composed of cyclic energy=20 fields in descending orders or phases of energy level (directly related to= =20 vibrational frequency) each centered on its own laya-point... And,=20 considering that all awareness of individuality or consciousness of Self (a= s=20 an apparently separate "observer" and "actor") is also centered everywhere = in=20 the coadunate zero points -- they must be triune in nature... Since, around= =20 both of the manifest dual fields of consciousness and matter, having opposi= te=20 polarities as well opposite spatial as well as conditional characteristics= =20 (one insubstantial and the other substantial, or subjective and objective,= =20 observer and observed, etc. ) -- as well as having zero-point centers=20 coadunate with the center of their crossover zero point -- there would alwa= ys=20 remain an all encompassing surrounding field corresponding to the initial=20 mother field of "Absolute Consciousness." This, duality within a trinity,=20 incidentally, also relates to the unity as well as the apparent "separation= "=20 between the 'Supreme Spirit" (Mahatma) and the "spirit in man" (Atma) spoke= n=20 of by WQJ, as well as by HPB -- and also as implied by Patanjali when he=20 speaks of achieving enlightenment (Samahdi) as "Isolation of the soul" (wit= h=20 respect to the lower, animal nature).=20 Therefore, this three cycle structure, as an absolute necessity with respec= t=20 to all energy fields, is governed by the immutable law of cycles which=20 depends upon the inherent nature of the fundamental (circular) *spinergy* (= or=20 infinite Energy of Parabrahm) that is the unmanifest and unimaginable=20 "abstract motion" underlying all of the levels, planes, or phases of manife= st=20 energies within the mother (Martha) field of the Cosmos.=20 Note: Remember that the above verbal and graphical descriptions, while=20 logically consistent and in conformance with theosophically scientific=20 principles, are purely symbolic and cannot exactly represent ultimate=20 reality... Since, each of the spherical fields within fields within fields= =20 are all spinning on their three axes and extend into multidimensional space= s=20 that are far beyond the limited three (and possibly four) dimensional human= =20 visual and mental capabilities to even imagine their true intraspatial=20 nature... Although, the intuitive mind should be able -- by meditation on= =20 the verbal and diagrammatic descriptions -- to grasp their logical=20 interconnectedness, triune nature and overall unity, as well as their=20 analogous and corresponding descent from the macrocosm to the microcosm in= =20 differing gradient planes, phases, levels or ranges of energy, vibrational= =20 frequency, consciousness, and substantiality.=20 I hope this simplified, and hopefully coherent and consistent description o= f=20 the inherent nature and lawful action of all fields derived from the primal= =20 field and originated from the abstract, absolute "spinergy" that is reflect= ed=20 in the infinite zero-points everywhere contiguous in both abstract and=20 phenomenal Space -- fully justifies and reinforces our acceptance and=20 conviction of the truth of the Three Fundamental Propositions (i.e., the=20 abstract nature of primal origin, the laws of its action and process of=20 generation, and the purpose of its evolution), along with a full=20 understanding of their moral and ethical imperatives as well as their=20 synthetic correlation with and consolidation of religious, scientific and=20 philosophical ideas and concepts -- explained fully, in comparative analogo= us=20 and corresponding detail, by HPB in the Secret Doctrine. Respectfully, LHM leonmaurer@aol.com http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Mon Dec 18 13:34:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 18 Dec 2000 21:34:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 47478 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2000 21:33:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Dec 2000 21:33:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail11.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.23) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Dec 2000 22:34:39 -0000 Received: from modem-68.brown-sailfin-tang.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.243.68] helo=pbncomputer) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 1487uU-0003w9-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:33:30 +0000 Message-ID: <012f01c0693a$82737c00$44f3883e@pbncomputer> To: Subject: PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:28:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" >>>>HYMN TO INTELLECTUAL BEAUTY<<<< The awful shadow of some unseen Power=20 Floats though unseen among us - visiting=20 This various world with as inconstant wing=20 As summer winds that creep from flower to flower -=20 Like moonbeams that behind some piny mountain shower,=20 It visits with inconstant glance=20 Each human heart and countenance;=20 Like hues and harmonies of evening -=20 Like clouds in starlight widely spread -=20 Like memory of music fled -=20 Like aught that for its grace may be=20 Dear, and yet dearer for its mystery.=20 Spirit of BEAUTY, that dost consecrate=20 With thine own hues all thou dost shine upon=20 Of human thought or form - where art thou gone?=20 Why dost thou pass away and leave our state,=20 This dim vast vale of tears, vacant and desolate?=20 Ask why the sunlight not forever=20 Weaves rainbows o'er yon mountain river,=20 Why aught should fail and fade that once is shown,=20 Why fear and dream and death and birth=20 Cast on the daylight of this earth=20 Such gloom - why man has such a scope=20 For love and hate, despondency and hope?=20 No voice from some sublimer world hath ever=20 To sage or poet these responses given -=20 Therefore the names of Daemon, Ghost, and Heaven,=20 Remain the records of their vain endeavour,=20 Frail spells - whose uttered charm might not avail to sever,=20 >From all we hear and all we see,=20 Doubt, chance, and mutability.=20 Thy light alone - like mist o'er mountains driven,=20 Or music by the night wind sent=20 Through strings of some still instrument,=20 Or moonlight on a midnight stream,=20 Gives grace and truth to life's unquiet dream.=20 Love, Hope, and Self-esteem, like clouds depart=20 And come, for some uncertain moments lent.=20 Man were immortal, and omnipotent,=20 Didst thou, unknown and awful as thou art,=20 Keep with thy glorious train firm state within his heart.=20 Thou messenger of sympathies,=20 That wax and wane in lovers' eyes -=20 Thou - that to human thought art nourishment,=20 Like darkness to a dying flame!=20 Depart not as thy shadow came,=20 Depart not - lest the grave should be,=20 Like life and fear, a dark reality.=20 While yet a boy I sought for ghosts, and sped=20 Through many a listening chamber, cave and ruin,=20 And starlight wood, with fearful steps pursuing=20 Hopes of high talk with the departed dead.=20 I called on poisonous names with which our youth is fed;=20 I was not heard - I saw them not -=20 When musing deeply on the lot=20 Of life, at that sweet time when winds are wooing=20 All vital things that wake to bring=20 News of birds and blossoming -=20 Sudden, thy shadow fell on me;=20 I shrieked, and clasped my hands in ecstasy!=20 I vowed that I would dedicate my powers=20 To thee and thine - have I not kept the vow?=20 With beating heart and streaming eyes, even now=20 I call the phantoms of a thousand hours=20 Each from his voiceless grave: they have in visioned bowers=20 Of studious zeal or love's delight=20 Outwatched with me the envious night -=20 They know that never joy illumed my brow=20 Unlinked with hope that thou wouldst free=20 This world from its dark slavery,=20 That thou - O awful LOVELINESS,=20 Wouldst give whate'er these words cannot express.=20 The day becomes more solemn and serene=20 When noon is past - there is a harmony=20 In autumn, and a luster in its sky,=20 Which through the summer is not heard or seen,=20 As if it could not be, as if it had not been!=20 Thus let thy power, which like the truth=20 Of nature on my passive youth=20 Descended, to my onward life supply=20 Its calm - to one who worships thee,=20 And every form containing thee,=20 Whom, SPIRIT fair, thy spells did bind=20 To fear himself, and love all human kind.=20 PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY <<<<>>>> From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 19 13:27:17 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 19 Dec 2000 21:27:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 36406 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:27:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2000 21:27:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:27:15 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30104 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:38:24 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0692.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.182]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02730; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:25:38 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- VALUE OF METAPHYSICS Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:21:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 19, 2000 Some comments below: I think that a review of metaphysics in terms of practical and daily life reveals the Moral/ethical Nature as the plane of reciprocal Karma. I also think that the quotations you append are most useful. Best wishes, Dal =========================== -----Original Message----- From: Peter Merriott [mailto:nous@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:59 PM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] RE: Summary of First Fundamental Proposition ================== The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. (1.) The ABSOLUTE; the Parabrahm of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. ------------------------------- DTB If we perceive IT [SAT, PARABRAHM, THE ABSOLUTE, etc...] not as an object, but as a necessary ALL or EVERYTHING; we deny IT particularity. Thus we immediately are confronted with the Paradox of the ABSOLUTE developing (by what process ?) some aspect of ITSELF which thinks, senses, meditates, searches for ITSELF. This ONE SOURCE can only be expressed in terms of infinitudes in time, distance, and motion. Any "solidity" on any plane of matter might be considered to be the result of motion in time and space. But the concept of MOTION alone demands a depth of beginning which can never be defined in either "time," or in "space.". Each plane of matter therefore demands a record of events, motions, purpose, achievement, etc... and such a record would be permanent and eternal -- These in their totality are BUDDHI -- the wisdom of experience. For this purpose of recording, another factor is necessary and that would be stability, immobility, as contrast can only be recorded accurately if there is some one point that is immovable, and some substance that is unchangeable and permanent, unaffected by time, or any kind of change. One might take the mental faculty, the Mind, to be such an AGENT. Its capacity to remain unaffected gives the PERCEIVER, OBSERVER, WITNESS (the real Man/Woman) the capacity to measure motion in time and distance in space/volume. This also suggests a mirror. And since the ABSOLUTE may be surmised (by the Particular) to stretch between the ABSOLUTE LIMITS (which are INFINITE) of SPIRIT (ATMA) on one hand, and of Matter (Buddhi, Mulaprakriti, acquired Wisdom of all experience, etc...) on the other hand, this/these "mirror(s) would have to be the closest and most minute "beings" (and would have to absolutely fill the Universe -- whether manifested or not) -- for which the word "Unit," "Monad," Atma-Buddhi, Spirit-Matter, might be devised. Hence the whole of Nature/Universe may be said to be sentient in all degrees, although not necessarily all Monads manifest the same degree of consciousness at the same time. Each Monad is either non-conscious, partially conscious (ignorant), self-conscious (Egoity --- which is either self-centered, or Universally centered and therefore impartially a practitioner of compassion and brotherhood). Becoming voluntarily one of Nature's supporters it (MONAD) creates gradually an environment where the rights and duties of every monadic being of any capacity are understood and respected by all others. This brings on the reconstruction of a "morally virtuous" condition where the condition of immortality is always weighed when free-will is exercised. The "Selfishness" and "isolation" of any one Monad is found to voluntarily merge with the needs, actions and purposes of a whole host of Monads, all acting for each-other and as one "tide." It is clear that this limited "I" (of our present knowledge and current living) is to pass (in the course of its "Eternal Pilgrimage") from ignorance, through experience to realization. This "realization" is the assurance (acquired by applying logic) -- that "it" is a vital and essential PART of the WHOLE. And yet, the WHOLE will still be undefined by and to the "particular I" which is doing this. ================================= (2.) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, unmanifested Logos, the precursor of the "manifested." This is the "First Cause," the "Unconscious" of European Pantheists. ---------------------------------- DTB To me this is the action of the Compounded KARMA of a whole host of beings (ourselves, and all other Monads) which having been at rest for an immensity of (our) years, now begins the preliminary change from that period of "sleep" to one of resumed activity, each awakening MONAD having to resume its active work (of receiving and generating Karma) in a new "day." ( A Manvantara which like our days, succeed each-other endlessly. ) The First Cause emanates in a lawful matter from the causes that preceded it. [ As an analogy, we need only recall how we proceed to "wake up" each morning. Some mornings the process of reanimating and taking control of our physical body, is more detailed and clearer than on others. ] ======================================== (3.) Spirit-matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe," the Purusha and Prakriti, or the second Logos. ------------------------------------------- DTB This is the personal Ego resuming voluntary control of the waking physical man, principle by principle and memory by memory as we develop the record of the past and the sense of duties to be filled during the day that is to begin. ================================ (4.) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World-Soul; the Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. ------------------------------------- DTB We are, as "Personal Ego," the "Mahat" for our small universe of the "Personal and the physical "man." It is not the "brain" that does this, but the unitary Human Intelligence, (the Real Man), MANAS, that provides the focus for "waking consciousness" to return. If we assume it is only the "brain," we assume there is some special function which happens to be the prerogative of the brain. But such a statement does not account for the constitution or the particularity of the brain stuff. Whet we do see is the cooperative action of very sensitive material drawn into the configuration we call "brain," and to which we attribute the coordination of many physical body functions. It does NOT provide any answer to the functions and changes of consciousness that occur outside of purely physiological needs. Nor does it account for the urges we would file under desire, passion, and the many vices which are caused by placing our "personality" in an isolated situation in contrast with the needs of others like us -- our family, friends, race, nation, etc... Nor does it account for the question of what happens to the acquired experience of each Monad/Ego at the end of its "life." Where is that taken? Where is it stored? Is it restored to activity by reincarnation? Does Karma (of the individual, race, earth, etc...) exist ? ================================== The ONE REALITY; its dual aspects in the conditioned Universe. (SD I 16) ------------------------------------------------- DTB This ONE REALITY has the paradoxical duality of not only SPIRIT and MATTER, but the far more paradoxical duality of WHOLE and its infinite number of PARTS (each reflecting the ONE). /what thoughts can we bring to each other to compare, so as to get deeper into understanding what we have, and what we are dealing with. Our whole future and the future of humanity depends on such inquiry. Will be take the time to do this? As free-willers we are volunteers. Will we then, work at this and discover what we can? We have the teachings (and an historical review begins at S.D. I 272). We need to verify them for ourselves. Best wishes, Dallas --------------------------------------------------==== Friends, Reflecting upon the summary, above, and trying to bring some thoughts and hopefully understandings together, the following came to mind for me. Please accept everything said as tentative, even though it may sound definite in places. The Absolute is that which ever IS. We cannot ever 'know' it as an object of consciousness, or *cognise* it, because our conceptual thinking is always limited and finite, hence it cannot 'grasp' the 'unlimited'. Though un-graspable, the Absolute is nonetheless the ONE TRUE and ULTIMATE nature of all BEINGS and all FORMS, in the sense that it is the source and basis of all CONSCIOUSNESS and SUBSTANCE in Kosmos. Though it cannot be 'cognised', perhaps we can 'sense' something of IT'S fathomless depths in the same way that we might stand in awe and humility before the infinite and star-lit ocean of universal space that is always beyond our capacity to cognise and adequately describe. Is this why it is that when we read that even the Highest Dhyanis bow down before that awful Mystery of Non-Being, these ideas resonate as 'true' somewhere inside us?.... as the still small voice makes its silent acknowledgement felt within our hearts, confirming that the Mystery of 'Non-Being', the Absolute, is not just a Mystery that exists somewhere *out there*, but is THE Mystery at the very heart of our own BEING. "The ever unknowable and incognizable Karana alone, the Causeless Cause of all causes, should have its shrine and altar on the holy and ever untrodden ground of our heart -- invisible, intangible, unmentioned, save through "the still small voice" of our spiritual consciousness." (SD I 280) The first 'stirrings' within the Absolute prior to manifestation are symbolised by the 'Point within the Circle'. This 'point', a dimensionless centre, cannot be limited to any one place. It is simultaneously everywhere throughout the infinitudes of SPACE, hence it is sometimes referred to as being "everywhere and nowhere". It is beyond TIME. It is called the First Cause, the un-manifested First Logos. It is the ONE MONAD, the "Universal Unit" from which all other Monads will spring forth (see, for example SD I 614). At the level of Kosmos, it is like ATMA, the seventh principle in 'man', which is both the point and the line, the indestructible 'Centre' at the heart of every being, and the RAY of the Universal Mind. It can never manifest itself, but its Light may be reflected in its various upadhis, vehicles of cosmic substance. The light of ATMA reflected in BUDDHI, becomes latent IDEATION or WISDOM. The light of the First Logos (precosmic Ideation) reflected in Mulaprakriti (precosmic Substance) becomes latent Divine Wisdom (the second Logos?). This reminds one of the Divine Thought, referred to on the first page of the Proem, "wherein lies concealed the plan of every future Cosmogony and Theogony" (SD I 1). Divine Thought is described as the "Eternal Mother-Father" (CW X 313), or, the "Seven-skinned Mother-Father" "which will become the seven planes of being, commencing from the spiritual and passing through the psychic to the material plane. The seven planes of thought and the seven states of consciousness correspond to these planes." (CW X 304, or see Transactions of Blavatsky Lodge) It is the Golden Egg in which Brahma (the Creator, the 3rd Logos, Mahat) is born. Perhaps we can see a very suggestive analogy in these lines from "Transactions". Might it be that the human Monad of Atma-Buddhi is the "Golden Egg" in which Manas is 'born', and is the seven skinned 'mother-father' (Auric envelope) from which are differentiated the seven planes of thought and consciousness of the human being? It is from the Second Logos (Spirit-Matter, LIFE) that MAHAT springs forth as the Third Logos, which is described as the Synthesis of the Seven creative rays, the 7 Logoi. These seven are the seven 'forms' or manifestations (Dhyani Buddhas) of the Divine Wisdom which overshadow the seven classes of Dhyan Chohans and Adepts (see SD I 574). Collectively, this host of spiritual beings, which is also known as the AH-HI (see Stanza 1), is MAHAT, the third Logos. It is the Universal Mind *in action*. In Mahat is reflected the plan and will of the Divine Thought (Universal Mind in potentia). Pre-cosmic Ideation becomes Cosmic Ideation. Thus the Dhyanis are the intelligent forces that give to, and enact in nature, her Laws (see "Transactions of BL"). They, as Mahat, are the noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in Nature. If we consider that Manas, in 'man', corresponds to Mahat in the Universe we see the great potential that is awaiting humanity. For it is through Manas, and Manas alone, that we have the possibility of reflecting the 'latent ideation' or 'Wisdom' of Atma-Buddhi (the Monad). Latent Wisdom may then become Wisdom in action. The more that we are capable of doing so, the more we will be able to become intelligent co-workers with Nature. ...Peter "Divine thought cannot be defined, or its meaning explained, except by the numberless manifestations of Cosmic Substance in which the former is sensed spiritually by those who can do so." (SD I 327) --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6640832V@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Dec 19 17:36:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 20 Dec 2000 01:36:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 96570 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 01:36:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2000 01:36:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 01:36:01 -0000 Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20830 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:47:10 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0891.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.247.126]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03675; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:35:56 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-SD-BN" Subject: INTUITION What is it? Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 19, 2000 I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not the intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about other's. It could be true or it could be vitiated by the "psychic" plane (and its distortions) since all such "communications" (or GUT FEELINGS ?) have to enter our Lower Manasic plane of the brain-mind before we can apprehend them. The moment we see "feeling" we know there is something "psychic" about it. Then one asks" What is the motive?" It may be worthwhile to wait some time and see if the "intuition" holds good for several days, or are other factors which change it emerging? Whenever there is a pressure for "speed in decision," or whenever there is any doubt, it is better to "abstain" for a while. A true "intuition" will still be valid after a time. It is a characteristic of the psychic plane that speed is involved. The pressure to "decide or you loose an opportunity," indicates to the truly INTUITIVE individual that care and time are needed -- for the matter to be fully and logically thought out. Another characteristic of psychic motivation is that the RESULTS OF CHOICE ARE NOT CONSIDERED. It takes a mind with the memory of the past to provide anticipation of future results. Tis is usually a range of potential results that would arise from a proposed present choice, be these words, thoughts, or actions. The thoughtful man invites intuitions, and carefully considers them. The impetuous person fears, or transforms them. One fact is clear, and that is: it is THE MIND of the individual (the REAL PERSON -- the Manasic being) which is the final actor, the final "decider." He makes Karma and to him Karma returns eventually the results of his decisions in all things, whether large or small. I often wondered if I could be a "fool" and sometimes have doubted strongly such flashes. I spoke of this with several friends, and they pointed out that there could be no special possession of any great TRUTHS. If an intuition were true, they also pointed out, then it came from BUDDHI-MANAS (the Higher Manas). It would be something that others using the test-tube of universal wisdom could also agree to. In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY H.P.B. points out that intuition was a communication of spiritual consciousness" (p. 137); also a basis for "true faith" (p. 220); and it could be an "aid to development." (p. 240) In one of her articles H.P.B. says that it carries the mind into the formless Spirit [ H.P.B. Articles I 43 ]. Again she calls it "an instinct of the soul, [a] projection of perceptive consciousness." [ H.P.B. Articles I 428-9 ]. Again: "spiritual instinct which conceives of the Infinite." [ H.P.B. Articles I 432-3 ] In her article WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN she says: "...as far as we accept Vedantic or Buddhistic doctrines, we only do so because we have been convinced by the reasons given; or, where the reasons prove to be beyond our comprehension, but where our intuition tells us: this, nevertheless, is likely to be true, we try our best to make our understanding follow our intuition." [ H.P.B. Articles I p. 461 ] Mr. Judge calls it a "great combining faculty" [W.Q.J. Articles I 450], and, in another article says that it is the "only means of understanding truth from higher planes" -- and, "unselfish effort develops it." [W.Q.J. Articles II 352-4] Still further he says in one place: "But whatever intuition is, it can only be cultivated by having the right mental poise, the right philosophy and the right ethics..." [ "Forum" Answers, W.Q.J. , p. 114 ] Mr. Judge, in one place avers that "conscience" [an aspect of the intuitive processes] has its source in the Higher Self (ATMA), and as it comes down through plane after plane it loses its force or retains power according to the life and education of the being on earth...I do not mean that conscience is a matter of education, but that the power of its utterances will be limited by our education, and consequently if we have a bigoted religion or a non-philosophical system we are likely to prevent ourselves from hearing from our conscience. And in those cases where men are doing wrong according to what they call their conscience, it must be true that they have so warped their intuition as not to understand the voice of the inward monitor." [W.Q.J. FORUM Answers p. 88-9] In the SECRET DOCTRINE, we find H.P.B. saying Intuition "soars above thought" (S.D. I p. 1fn, 278-9); Divine intuition is needed for deep truth ( S.D. II 516). Spiritual intuition is not clairvoyance (S.D. I p. 460) It is a "spiritual" faculty (S.D. I 329fn 644) I think this gives a range of responses all pointing to the ways in which Theosophy says we may consider an incoming "intuition," and how we ought to respond to it. We should never forget that the ATMA is within each of us and that its teachings ought to be always considered. We are actually brothers with the whole of Nature, so true intuitions reflect the laws of compassion and self-sacrifice as we recognize ways and means of assisting others in their lives. Best wishes, Dallas ====================== From KArc@compuserve.com Wed Dec 20 06:16:27 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 20 Dec 2000 14:16:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 93482 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 14:16:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2000 14:16:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmbaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.153) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 14:16:26 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id JAA19709 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:16:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:16:04 -0500 Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012200916_MC2-BF4B-2A34@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Dear Dallas -- So INTERESTING that you combine Intuition with Compassion.=20 I agree. Only with the Compassion of Unconditional Love do we rise above the lower manasic plane of judgment, condemnation and the like -- to the Higher Intuitive Realms where we might receive a glimpse of the Divine.=20 Much love to all of you for the Holidays. Kat in cool clear grey-lighted Italy From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Dec 20 07:38:39 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 20 Dec 2000 15:38:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 78604 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 15:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2000 15:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 15:38:39 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D12021984C7; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:32:22 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D150001A6E7@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:32:22 -0700 Subject: A Newly Translated article on HPB by her sister Vera Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" One new article has=20 just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc "Blavatsky and the Theosophists"=20 by Vera P. Zhelihovsky.=20=20 Just translated from the Russian by G.T. =20=20 [This article in Russian originally=20 appeared in Odesskiy Vestnik, No.123,=20=20=20 June 5, 1884, pp.1-3 and was reprinted=20 in Rebus, No. 28, July 15, 1884,=20=20=20 pp. 263-265 and No. 29, July 22, 1884,=20 pp. 273-275.] This is an article by HPB's sister=20 which describes part of Vera's trip to Paris in 1884 to see HPB. Portions of this article have been translated and published in Sinnett's INCIDENTS and Sylvia Cranston's=20 biography of HPB but the whole article has never been published in English. Our thanks to G.T. who has worked very hard on this translsation. This article will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Dec 20 07:39:19 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 20 Dec 2000 15:39:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 51831 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 15:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2000 15:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 15:39:19 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id HAA28854 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id HAA28850 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:39:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002101c06a9b$ece3c880$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:44:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Dallas, Excellent comments on the intuition; very intuitive! As I understand it the buddhic intuition comes from the budhhic state of consciousness on the 4th plane and from within all of us. It manifests through the heart centre within the higher astral(emotional) state of consciousness. Therefore it is indeed closely associated with the Higher Self from the Transpersonal states of consciousness and with compassion through the heart centre, or, with the Heart of hearts and the heart. However, as you point out so well, the solar plexus centre, a very personal centre, also is present and in the lower astral(emotional) state of consciousness. Which is the buddhic intuition coming through the abstract mind(higher manas) and manifesting through our feelings via the heart centre and which is personal need replete with glamourous distortion and supported by bad habits, rationalization and lower mental illusions? I love your acute discernment of which may be which. And. It is here that the wisdom of the higher mind and the science of the lower mind must be bridged and work together with the transpersonal Ego(higher self) and clearly discern which is which. May these three minds unite! The study of the difference between the transpersonal Buddhic Intuitive Love of the Higher Self and the personal instinctive needs of the lower self has just got to be one of the most important studies that the mind might make. What a contribution the Wise-Scientist might make to our civilization and culture! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-SD-BN" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 19, 2000 > > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. > > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not the > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about > other's. > > It could be true or it could be vitiated by the "psychic" plane > (and its distortions) since all such "communications" (or GUT > FEELINGS ?) have to enter our Lower Manasic plane of the > brain-mind before we can apprehend them. > > The moment we see "feeling" we know there is something "psychic" > about it. Then one asks" What is the motive?" It may be > worthwhile to wait some time and see if the "intuition" holds > good for several days, or are other factors which change it > emerging? Whenever there is a pressure for "speed in decision," > or whenever there is any doubt, it is better to "abstain" for a > while. A true "intuition" will still be valid after a time. > > It is a characteristic of the psychic plane that speed is > involved. The pressure to "decide or you loose an opportunity," > indicates to the truly INTUITIVE individual that care and time > are needed -- for the matter to be fully and logically thought > out. > > Another characteristic of psychic motivation is that the RESULTS > OF CHOICE ARE NOT CONSIDERED. It takes a mind with the memory of > the past to provide anticipation of future results. Tis is > usually a range of potential results that would arise from a > proposed present choice, be these words, thoughts, or actions. > The thoughtful man invites intuitions, and carefully considers > them. The impetuous person fears, or transforms them. One fact > is clear, and that is: it is THE MIND of the individual (the > REAL PERSON -- the Manasic being) which is the final actor, the > final "decider." He makes Karma and to him Karma returns > eventually the results of his decisions in all things, whether > large or small. > > I often wondered if I could be a "fool" and sometimes have > doubted strongly such flashes. I spoke of this with several > friends, and they pointed out that there could be no special > possession of any great TRUTHS. If an intuition were true, they > also pointed out, then it came from BUDDHI-MANAS (the Higher > Manas). It would be something that others using the test-tube of > universal wisdom could also agree to. > > In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY H.P.B. points out that intuition was a > communication of spiritual consciousness" (p. 137); also a basis > for "true faith" (p. 220); and it could be an "aid to > development." (p. 240) In one of her articles H.P.B. says that > it carries the mind into the formless Spirit [ H.P.B. Articles I > 43 ]. Again she calls it "an instinct of the soul, [a] > projection of perceptive consciousness." [ H.P.B. Articles I > 428-9 ]. Again: "spiritual instinct which conceives of the > Infinite." [ H.P.B. Articles I 432-3 ] > > In her article WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN she says: > "...as far as we accept Vedantic or Buddhistic doctrines, we only > do so because we have been convinced by the reasons given; or, > where the reasons prove to be beyond our comprehension, but where > our intuition tells us: this, nevertheless, is likely to be > true, we try our best to make our understanding follow our > intuition." [ H.P.B. Articles I p. 461 ] > > Mr. Judge calls it a "great combining faculty" [W.Q.J. Articles > I 450], and, in another article says that it is the "only means > of understanding truth from higher planes" -- and, "unselfish > effort develops it." [W.Q.J. Articles II 352-4] Still further > he says in one place: "But whatever intuition is, it can only be > cultivated by having the right mental poise, the right philosophy > and the right ethics..." [ "Forum" Answers, W.Q.J. , p. 114 ] > > Mr. Judge, in one place avers that "conscience" [an aspect of the > intuitive processes] has its source in the Higher Self (ATMA), > and as it comes down through plane after plane it loses its force > or retains power according to the life and education of the being > on earth...I do not mean that conscience is a matter of > education, but that the power of its utterances will be limited > by our education, and consequently if we have a bigoted religion > or a non-philosophical system we are likely to prevent ourselves > from hearing from our conscience. And in those cases where men > are doing wrong according to what they call their conscience, it > must be true that they have so warped their intuition as not to > understand the voice of the inward monitor." [W.Q.J. FORUM > Answers p. 88-9] > > In the SECRET DOCTRINE, we find H.P.B. saying Intuition "soars > above thought" (S.D. I p. 1fn, 278-9); Divine intuition is > needed for deep truth ( S.D. II 516). Spiritual intuition is > not clairvoyance (S.D. I p. 460) It is a "spiritual" faculty > (S.D. I 329fn 644) > > I think this gives a range of responses all pointing to the ways > in which Theosophy says we may consider an incoming "intuition," > and how we ought to respond to it. We should never forget that > the ATMA is within each of us and that its teachings ought to be > always considered. We are actually brothers with the whole of > Nature, so true intuitions reflect the laws of compassion and > self-sacrifice as we recognize ways and means of assisting others > in their lives. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ====================== > > > > > > > > From jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk Wed Dec 20 13:10:20 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jp@condick.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 20 Dec 2000 21:10:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 85089 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 21:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Dec 2000 21:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail11.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.23) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 22:11:24 -0000 Received: from modem-238.flagfin-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.12.238] helo=pbncomputer) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 148qV5-0004A9-00 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:10:16 +0000 Message-ID: <007b01c06ac9$9be327e0$ee0c893e@pbncomputer> To: Subject: Three Halls Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:05:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" Let the Disciple slay the Slayer.=20 For: --=20 When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he s= ees in dreams;=20 When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE-the inner sound= which kills the outer.=20 Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, t= o come unto the realm of Sat, the true.=20 Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly e= yes be rendered blind to all illusion.=20 Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings= as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing = of the golden fire-fly.=20 Before the soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent S= peaker be united just as the form to which the clay is modelled, is first u= nited with the potter's mind.=20 For then the soul will hear, and will remember.=20 And then to the inner ear will speak- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE=20 And say: --=20 If thy soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy soul s= ings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy soul weeps inside her= castle of illusion; if thy soul struggles to break the silver thread that = binds her to the MASTER; know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth.=20 When to the World's turmoil thy budding soul lends ear; when to the roaring= voice of the great illusion thy Soul responds when frightened at the sight= of the hot tears of pain, when deafened by the cries of distress, thy soul= withdraws like the shy turtle within the carapace of SELFHOOD, learn, O Di= sciple, of her Silent "God," thy Soul is an unworthy shrine.=20 When waxing stronger, thy Soul glides forth from her secure retreat: and br= eaking loose from the protecting shrine, extends her silver thread and rush= es onward; when beholding her image on the waves of Space she whispers, "Th= is is I,"-declare, O Disciple, that thy soul is caught in the webs of delus= ion.=20 This Earth, Disciple, is the Hall of Sorrow, wherein are set along the Path= of dire probations, traps to ensnare thy EGO by the delusion called "Great= Heresy".=20 This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the = twilight that precedes the valley of true light-that light which no wind ca= n extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel.=20 Saith the Great Law: -- "In order to become the KNOWER of ALL SELF thou has= t first of SELF to be the knower." To reach the knowledge of that SELF, tho= u hast to give up Self to Non-Self, Being to Non-Being, and then thou canst= repose between the wings of the GREAT BIRD. Aye, sweet is rest between the= wings of that which is not born, nor dies, but is the AUM throughout etern= al ages.=20 Bestride the Bird of Life, if thou would'st know.=20 Give up thy life, if thou would'st live.=20 Three Halls, O weary pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conq= ueror of Mara, will bring thee through three states into the fourth and the= nce into the seven worlds, the worlds of Rest Eternal.=20 If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken, and remember.=20 The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE-Avidya.=20 It is the Hall in which thou saw'st the light, in which thou livest and sha= lt die.=20 The name of Hall the second is the Hall of Learning. In it thy Soul will fi= nd the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled.=20 H.P.Blavatsky <<<<>>>> From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 20 16:43:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 00:43:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 1213 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 00:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 00:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 00:43:50 -0000 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15121 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:54:27 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0372.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.245.117]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA18575; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:42:09 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] RE: questions page 15-16: Kosmic - Cosmic - kosmic - cosmic ? Do meanings change? Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:38:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 20, 2000 Dear Tony: Re: The physical SECRET DOCTRINE and Some of the concealed meanings and codes in it. You make some very important points for us to consider. First you draw together Some of the interesting changes made in spelling and emphasis with which the S.D. is full. Can these, you ask, be regularized. I would say that only H.P.B. or the Masters could answer as to whether they were intentional or inadvertent (perhaps proof-readers, and well intentioned "readers" made change in H.P.B.'s MSS (no longer available) -- as she notes in her article MY BOOKS [Lucifer, May 1891 -- ULT "H.P.B. Articles," Vol. I. P. 475] and also some notes she makes on the S.D. in "MISTAKEN NOTIONS ON THE SECRET DOCTRINE" [Lucifer, June 1890, ULT "H.P.B. Articles," Vol. I, p. 485; see also the interesting foot-note on S.D. II 441; and the projected CONTENTS of Vols. III and IV of the S.D. as outlined on S.D. II 437, 798, I-vii and II-106] Apparently there were a number of "hands" that stirred the 'broth' which became for us the S.D. I find it most difficult to try to retrace the broken steps so as to see an original which is no longer tangible. Therefore I try to concentrate on the meaning of what H.P.B. tries to convey of the ancient doctrines said to be millenniums old. To be very brief there appear to be 7: 1, 2, 3 FUNDAMENTALS [ "GOD," "LAW," BEINGS in Evolution (as a study of the development of CONSCIOUSNESS) ], 4. CYCLES (as KARMA), 5. REINCARNATION (as a process whereby all "material substances" have an opportunity to develop into spiritual and metaphysical beings with a consciousness that spans the Universe) 6. UNIVERSAL CAUSATION - or UNITY (Brotherhood being the basis for all living) 7. The ABSOLUTE -- indescribable as it includes and interpenetrates ALL BEINGS. (Serves to bring any of its many "children" from ignorance to full wisdom, from non-consciousness to full UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS). Apparently the use of a "K" as in Kosmic indicates the TOTALITY OF ALL MANIFESTATION. The use of a "C" as in Cosmic indicates the range of our particular Universe in this present stage of its manifestation and evolution with and through the 7 planes of substance described to us. One of the results from a comparison of the ways in which students who followed H.P.B. tried to re-write the S.D. according to their understanding of it and her presumed meaning is to realize how important it is to preserve the original and let all students, current and future figure it out for themselves. Personally I think it highly presumptive to endeavour to read into H.P.B.'s writings what a student may think he understands, and then pass that compote along to others as "authentic H.P.B." and not indicate where the editor has done his/her work. If errors are discovered, and I have found some, the changes can be made in footnotes which an editor may use to show the reasons for considering a change. But the ORIGINAL ought to be made available (using current technology, we can do this) to future students as H.P.B. allowed it to be presented in her time. I would say that in the S.D. there is, no doubt, more than one code. Each student as he advances in understanding opens out the petals of this great "lotus" of wisdom. H.P.B. and the Masters have focused here a précis of the wisdom of the ages of the past of an incredible passage of time. Any good student re-reads the S.D. several times, and no doubt, he will find that on reading again shades of meaning that had earlier escaped his attention emerge. A single reading is quite inadequate to appreciate the importance of this book. We have been given (in the S.D.) analogies and correspondences to enable us to trace through the myths, legends and traditions of the past of all religions and cultures the very same paths that are inherent in them of still older sources of knowledge and wisdom. These parallels serve to demonstrate that WISDOM is always ONE, and the "possession" of the whole of Humanity. But the ways to present that Wisdom vary in language and in symbols used -- although the unity of symbolism is also quite remarkable. One important fact is that H.P.B. wrote when the sciences of antiquity, in various field of Science were just developing. She tried to place before those who were concerned in discovery the clues and keys to a deep understanding of the past and proofs of the antiquity not only of civilization, arts, sciences, thought, morals, and philosophy but the unanimity of metaphysical as well as of physical artifacts which could be considered. Most of those sciences of inquiry are barely 250/300 years old, and H.P.B. wrote about 125 years back when real knowledge was just being accumulated and the theories and hypotheses that have later ruled the education of specialists were just being developed. As I see it, no one need arrogate to themselves a position of specialist, scholar, interpreter, teacher or translator without giving to the new student and enquirer the freedom to do their own research and see if their independent conclusions tally with those of the authors of this marvelous book. Best wishes, Dallas =================================== -----Original Message----- From: Tony [mailto:alpha@dircon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 6:05 PM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] RE: Some further questions on our passage on page 15-16 You write: <<>> It was interesting to print out the passage you quoted from the SD, and then with a marker pen highlight certain words. In this case precosmic and cosmic. In the first para. it is: precosmic (and cosmic) i.e. in both cases cosmic has a small "c" in the 2nd para.it is: pre-Cosmic. It is now "hyphenated" (what does the hyphen symbolise?) and Cosmic has a capital C. In the 3rd para: It is Cosmic with a capital C. What distinctions can be drawn between precosmic and pre-Cosmic? There are the distinctions: Root (Capital R)...precosmic Ideation/pre-Cosmic Ideation/Cosmic Ideation. and on the other hand: precosmic root-substance/pre-Cosmic Substance/Cosmic Substance. It appears that the metaphysical triad is represented by the Absolute (Parabrahm)/Spirit/Matter? Why is Parabrahm put in brackets? Or why isn't it Parabrahm with the Absolute in brackets? the Root, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. On the other hand "root-" substance...that aspect. Why "root-" in relation to substance, but not Ideation. Why "character" in relation to precosmic ideation, and "aspect" in relation to precosmic root-substance? Just making the observations becomes suggestive. One fascinating thing in passing, is that the recent edited edition of "The Secret Doctrine" alters both precosmic and pre-Cosmic as given above, to a consistent "pre-cosmic" which doesn't appear in the original at all. This is mentioned in case all on this list are not aware that subtleties, which are in the original, are often removed in the revised editions. Students of the secret doctrine see it as being worked from "the above" and this helps towards an understanding of why these subtleties are there in the original. When worked from below, consistency in spelling, grammar, etc. can seem important. It is unlikely HPB and the Masters decided they were going to make the first fundamental proposition 49 words in total (changed in all subsequent non-facsimile editions of the SD). It naturally happened as it was worked from "above." 7 x 7. Each of the 7 principles is 7 principles. The 49 fires. Number 7 is the number of this Manvantara. The 7 human principles appear to be fore shadowed at source??? Perhaps to a western mind to express the difference between precosmic and pre-Cosmic requires a treatise in itself. See page 21 PROEM, re: stanzas I & II: "The stage described in Stanza II. is, to a western mind, so nearly identical with that mentioned in the first Stanza, that to express the idea of its difference would require a treatise in itself. Hence it must be left to the intuition and the higher faculties of the reader to grasp, as far as he can, the meaning of the allegorical phrases used. Indeed it must be remembered that all these Stanzas appeal to the inner faculties rather than to the ordinary comprehension of the physical brain." This leads to another point. Why study the secret doctrine? The Bowen pamphlet which was recommended earlier suggests it is to do with the development of Janna Yoga. "In the old books, the word *Janna* is defined as "to reform one's self by meditation and knowledge," a second *inner* birth. Hence Dzan, *Djan* phonetically, the "Book of *Dzyan*."" (SD XX, footnote) "Ordinary intellectual activity moves on well-beaten paths in the brain, and does not compel sudden adjustments and destructions in its substance. But this new kind of mental effort calls for something very different-the carving out of new "brain paths," the ranking in different order of the little brain lives. If forced injudiciously it may do serious physical harm to the brain." (The Bowen pamphlet) Tony --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6591177M@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 21 05:31:22 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 30683 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 14:32:27 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0071.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.71]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA18970; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:30:29 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Three Halls Thoughts for 2001 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:26:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007b01c06ac9$9be327e0$ee0c893e@pbncomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 21, 2000 Solstice and Seasons greetings. Bonne Annee ! Many thanks Jeremy. Those are so valuable -- the VOICE ought to be read and pondered over daily. [SAT / ASAT see S.D. II 449-50 544 597fn 626; also S.D. I 48 56 89fn ] HARMONY see S.D. II 420; ISIS II 430-1; ML 141; S.D. I 632 643 ] Are not all these injunctions aimed at awakening the higher aspect of the LOWER MANAS ? Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Condick Subject: Three Halls Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. For: -- When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE-the inner sound which kills the outer. Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, to come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden fire-fly. Before the soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united just as the form to which the clay is modelled, is first united with the potter's mind. For then the soul will hear, and will remember. And then to the inner ear will speak- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE And say: -- If thy soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy soul weeps inside her castle of illusion; if thy soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER; know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding soul lends ear; when to the roaring voice of the great illusion thy Soul responds when frightened at the sight of the hot tears of pain, when deafened by the cries of distress, thy soul withdraws like the shy turtle within the carapace of SELFHOOD, learn, O Disciple, of her Silent "God," thy Soul is an unworthy shrine. When waxing stronger, thy Soul glides forth from her secure retreat: and breaking loose from the protecting shrine, extends her silver thread and rushes onward; when beholding her image on the waves of Space she whispers, "This is I,"-declare, O Disciple, that thy soul is caught in the webs of delusion. This Earth, Disciple, is the Hall of Sorrow, wherein are set along the Path of dire probations, traps to ensnare thy EGO by the delusion called "Great Heresy". This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light-that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. Saith the Great Law: -- "In order to become the KNOWER of ALL SELF thou hast first of SELF to be the knower." To reach the knowledge of that SELF, thou hast to give up Self to Non-Self, Being to Non-Being, and then thou canst repose between the wings of the GREAT BIRD. Aye, sweet is rest between the wings of that which is not born, nor dies, but is the AUM throughout eternal ages. Bestride the Bird of Life, if thou would'st know. Give up thy life, if thou would'st live. Three Halls, O weary pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, will bring thee through three states into the fourth and thence into the seven worlds, the worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken, and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE-Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. The name of Hall the second is the Hall of Learning. In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. H.P.Blavatsky VOICE OF THE SILENCE (pp. 2 ...) <<<<>>>> =============================================== "The Cycles of Matter will be succeeded by cycles of Spirituality and a fully developed mind. On the law of parallel history and races, the majority of the future mankind will be composed of glorious Adepts. Humanity is the child of cyclic Destiny, and not one of its Units can escape its unconscious mission, or get rid of the burden of its co-operative work with nature. Thus will mankind, race after race, perform its appointed cycle pilgrimage...." H.P.B. S.D. II 446 From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 21 05:31:46 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 81278 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 14:32:50 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0071.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.71]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA21074; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:31:39 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:27:42 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002101c06a9b$ece3c880$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 21, 2000 Solstice -- days should now grow longer. Best wishes for 2001 Dear Gene: Perhaps the numeration of the planes differs in some systems, and as the characteristic of BUDDHI as a plane is to RECORD and REPRODUCE the WISDOM OF THE PAST (Universally and individually) one of its functions is to act as a monitor/tutor -- one that responds to the inquiries of Manas (the actor, the doer, the Ego, the Mind) which is the active agent (through Lower Manas or Kama-manas, the emotional-mind) active on our present plane and within the limits of our material form and physical existence. Perhaps this might be: 1. ABSOLUTE -- 2. ATMA (universal ONE SPIRIT) -- 3. .(individualization of a "RAY" of ATMA by its union with Buddhi -- MONAD ) -- [see S.D. II 231fn] 4. MAHAT (universal Mind) - in Man it is MANAS the Higher when united with Buddhi, [ see S.D. II 230-1 as the "higher Self] and 5. LOWER MANAS (Kama-Manas) when the mind is united in the Personality with KAMA. 6. KAMA (universal DESIRE for completeness - CAUSE of individual existence -- S.D. II 176 top: "Desire first arose in it..." and S.D. II 578-9) And so on. [ S.D. I 222 247; II 74 167 275 635 ] I am of the opinion that it might be incorrect for me to say that any one of the forces which are represented in Man by a description of the "principles," will operate, or be even affected by forces used to influence the physiological centers (chakras) that the ancient Hindu and Chinese practitioners of psychology and medicine have discovered and use. Spiritual powers and force does not depend on any physical influence we may impose of a physical "chakra." I would rather suggest that the force/power of our will, acting under desire, with a motive to heal (or otherwise), will affect the physiological as well as the psychic planes and principles -- but the nature of the truly SPIRITUAL precludes such influence, although it may be noted, of course. How do we, spiritual beings in essence learn how to live and work through physical matter and all its karmic and other limitations? What will be use as practical alchemists? What are the paths and disciplines? Did you ever read the article (early in Theosophist I believe) title THE ELIXIR OF LIFE [ 1st article in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY ] ? Theosophical occultism seems to say: So long as any vestige of personal desire (for self, personal-benefit) is present, it will not be possible for the truly SPIRITUAL elements to act. How could the UNIVERSAL, IMPERSONAL, and ETERNAL have any but a most fleeting and passing relationship with the ephemeral and transitory whims and feelings we might generate as persons? Yet, we as humans have the mirroring of that very REAL EXISTENCE -- in our minds (kama-manas). Something attracts and inspires that. What is it? What is the process of "becoming spiritual," of changing from self-centeredness (selfishness in desire and feeling) to the universally-centered MIND (which asks: Why am I here? What are my true duties?" Of course, to us, our personality, and its wants, desires and so-called needs are important. But, are they truly long-lasting? Do they lead to an apotheosis of the total nature of the individual or are they selfish in some way? What is the objective of any selfish or self-protective plan? How long will it last? Will it still be valid and useful, 10 or 20 years hence? Each one has to answer for themselves such questions, I believe. If we are truly immortal beings the question of motive (and the ethico-moral) nature of our decisions is absolutely crucial to our progress and to any interaction we might generate or sustain with others -- whether humans or otherwise. But I also sense that there may be a wide gap between the UNIVERSAL view and many Personal attitudes and reasons.. Then (to me) arises the question: Why is there any "Personal Self" at all? I imagine that each component (principle) of "myself," at its own level, in the "personality," is an individual (or a congeries, a host) of MONAD(s), and each is due its own "Path of Progress." How am I concerned in that? We happen to have attracted masses of such MONADS to our environment, and therefore have become karmically responsible for their assistance. We also know that we could have no physical existence without their own cooperation and self-sacrificial assistance. They serve us as the main constituents of the forms or bodies that we use: physical, astral, psychic, mental, etc...What would you say ? Does this not lead us back to cooperation and brotherhood and voluntary service ? We forever live on the knife-edge of TIME. The Future becomes the fleeting Present and then recedes into the irreversible PAST. I agree that the "wise Scientist" could offer ideas which (if taken to heart) might change the world. I would also suggest that the S.D. may be the product of three (or more) of such WISE SCIENTISTS. Does not all wisdom belong to everyone? Truth cannot be patented, and then sequestered for selfish profit (for very long). It will be good to see over time how much of the information given in THE SECRET DOCTRINE will attract that attention which will produce this. I see evidence of such "dipping" all the time. Theosophy will become "popular" some time. But so long as people approach its doors, they will not be able to extract the most useful directions, until their motives are self-changed to altruism compassion, and brotherhood as a practical way of living. In the meantime we have to work on our own "lower" selves and bring about as great a change and improvement as possible there. How do immortals live? How is it possible to reject the concept of immortality? What is there to live for? There are times in one's life when (I think) such questions become essential and valid. There is a LIFE to them and they are not morbid in any way. Pardon me if I sound somewhat "preachy" -- but I really don't men to do that, as you know these things quite well and all I really am trying to do is to find out if I am thinking along lines you are used to. Best wishes, Dal ====================== -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:45 AM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Dear Dallas, Excellent comments on the intuition; very intuitive! As I understand it the buddhic intuition comes from the budhhic state of consciousness on the 4th plane and from within all of us. It manifests through the heart centre within the higher astral(emotional) state of consciousness. Therefore it is indeed closely associated with the Higher Self from the Transpersonal states of consciousness and with compassion through the heart centre, or, with the Heart of hearts and the heart. However, as you point out so well, the solar plexus centre, a very personal centre, also is present and in the lower astral(emotional) state of consciousness. Which is the buddhic intuition coming through the abstract mind(higher manas) and manifesting through our feelings via the heart centre and which is personal need replete with glamourous distortion and supported by bad habits, rationalization and lower mental illusions? I love your acute discernment of which may be which. And. It is here that the wisdom of the higher mind and the science of the lower mind must be bridged and work together with the transpersonal Ego(higher self) and clearly discern which is which. May these three minds unite! The study of the difference between the transpersonal Buddhic Intuitive Love of the Higher Self and the personal instinctive needs of the lower self has just got to be one of the most important studies that the mind might make. What a contribution the Wise-Scientist might make to our civilization and culture! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-SD-BN" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 19, 2000 > > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. > > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not the > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about > other's. > > It could be true or it could be vitiated by the "psychic" plane > (and its distortions) since all such "communications" (or GUT > FEELINGS ?) have to enter our Lower Manasic plane of the > brain-mind before we can apprehend them. > > The moment we see "feeling" we know there is something "psychic" > about it. Then one asks" What is the motive?" It may be > worthwhile to wait some time and see if the "intuition" holds > good for several days, or are other factors which change it > emerging? Whenever there is a pressure for "speed in decision," > or whenever there is any doubt, it is better to "abstain" for a > while. A true "intuition" will still be valid after a time. > > It is a characteristic of the psychic plane that speed is > involved. The pressure to "decide or you loose an opportunity," > indicates to the truly INTUITIVE individual that care and time > are needed -- for the matter to be fully and logically thought > out. > > Another characteristic of psychic motivation is that the RESULTS > OF CHOICE ARE NOT CONSIDERED. It takes a mind with the memory of > the past to provide anticipation of future results. Tis is > usually a range of potential results that would arise from a > proposed present choice, be these words, thoughts, or actions. > The thoughtful man invites intuitions, and carefully considers > them. The impetuous person fears, or transforms them. One fact > is clear, and that is: it is THE MIND of the individual (the > REAL PERSON -- the Manasic being) which is the final actor, the > final "decider." He makes Karma and to him Karma returns > eventually the results of his decisions in all things, whether > large or small. > > I often wondered if I could be a "fool" and sometimes have > doubted strongly such flashes. I spoke of this with several > friends, and they pointed out that there could be no special > possession of any great TRUTHS. If an intuition were true, they > also pointed out, then it came from BUDDHI-MANAS (the Higher > Manas). It would be something that others using the test-tube of > universal wisdom could also agree to. > > In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY H.P.B. points out that intuition was a > communication of spiritual consciousness" (p. 137); also a basis > for "true faith" (p. 220); and it could be an "aid to > development." (p. 240) In one of her articles H.P.B. says that > it carries the mind into the formless Spirit [ H.P.B. Articles I > 43 ]. Again she calls it "an instinct of the soul, [a] > projection of perceptive consciousness." [ H.P.B. Articles I > 428-9 ]. Again: "spiritual instinct which conceives of the > Infinite." [ H.P.B. Articles I 432-3 ] > > In her article WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN she says: > "...as far as we accept Vedantic or Buddhistic doctrines, we only > do so because we have been convinced by the reasons given; or, > where the reasons prove to be beyond our comprehension, but where > our intuition tells us: this, nevertheless, is likely to be > true, we try our best to make our understanding follow our > intuition." [ H.P.B. Articles I p. 461 ] > > Mr. Judge calls it a "great combining faculty" [W.Q.J. Articles > I 450], and, in another article says that it is the "only means > of understanding truth from higher planes" -- and, "unselfish > effort develops it." [W.Q.J. Articles II 352-4] Still further > he says in one place: "But whatever intuition is, it can only be > cultivated by having the right mental poise, the right philosophy > and the right ethics..." [ "Forum" Answers, W.Q.J. , p. 114 ] > > Mr. Judge, in one place avers that "conscience" [an aspect of the > intuitive processes] has its source in the Higher Self (ATMA), > and as it comes down through plane after plane it loses its force > or retains power according to the life and education of the being > on earth...I do not mean that conscience is a matter of > education, but that the power of its utterances will be limited > by our education, and consequently if we have a bigoted religion > or a non-philosophical system we are likely to prevent ourselves > from hearing from our conscience. And in those cases where men > are doing wrong according to what they call their conscience, it > must be true that they have so warped their intuition as not to > understand the voice of the inward monitor." [W.Q.J. FORUM > Answers p. 88-9] > > In the SECRET DOCTRINE, we find H.P.B. saying Intuition "soars > above thought" (S.D. I p. 1fn, 278-9); Divine intuition is > needed for deep truth ( S.D. II 516). Spiritual intuition is > not clairvoyance (S.D. I p. 460) It is a "spiritual" faculty > (S.D. I 329fn 644) > > I think this gives a range of responses all pointing to the ways > in which Theosophy says we may consider an incoming "intuition," > and how we ought to respond to it. We should never forget that > the ATMA is within each of us and that its teachings ought to be > always considered. We are actually brothers with the whole of > Nature, so true intuitions reflect the laws of compassion and > self-sacrifice as we recognize ways and means of assisting others > in their lives. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ====================== > > > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 21 05:31:47 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 49380 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:46 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0071.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.71]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA21259 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:31:45 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:28:00 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200012200916_MC2-BF4B-2A34@compuserve.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Thanks Kathleen: Encouraging -- we need that for the future. In the S.D. on Vol. II p. 446 I find H.P.B. writing that "The Cycles of Matter will be succeeded by Cycles of Spirituality and a fully developed mind. On the law of parallel history and races, the majority of future mankind will be composed of glorious Adepts." If that is our potential, then we have a lot of work before us. Best wishes, Dallas ================================== -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Arc [mailto:KArc@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 6:16 AM To: INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Dear Dallas -- So INTERESTING that you combine Intuition with Compassion. I agree. Only with the Compassion of Unconditional Love do we rise above the lower manasic plane of judgment, condemnation and the like -- to the Higher Intuitive Realms where we might receive a glimpse of the Divine. Much love to all of you for the Holidays. Kat in cool clear grey-lighted Italy From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 21 05:31:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 31848 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 13:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 13:31:50 -0000 Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21140 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:42:56 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0071.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.71]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA20242; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:31:12 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- VALUE OF METAPHYSICS -- and UNIVERSALITY Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:27:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 21, 2000 Re: UNIVERSALITY -- IMMORTALITY -- KARMIC LAW -- PERFECTION Dear Mauri: I think that the concept of the BUDDHI-WISDOM as a record of all events and energies in a Universe includes also past universes. There are no exception or dusty closets where the impact of responses are lost and forgotten. The impact of the LIVING UNIVERSE implies that all receive the impression of all the rest and that has happened all the time. And, will continue to "happen." Further, each feeling is related to thought, and the two together produce ideas, plans, words, pictures, and finally actions. Each "plane" impacts the rest and leaves its appropriate impression there. Each aspect of change is Karma, whether this be of an individual, a family, or a race of beings -- then expanding further, we could say that the Karma of a World impacts its Solar System, and from there the trails pass into the UNIVERSE. Nothing is left out. We are related to the STARS. And all the Buddhas, Dhyan Chohans, Bodhisattvas, Mahatmas, Adepts, etc... represent not only great INDIVIDUAL successes in spiritual attainment, but they are living proof of the potentials we can achieve as we make our choice to grow into the positions of work and responsibility which they presently occupy, and take up our natural burdens. The changes that we impose (by our free-willed choices) on the billions of atoms, molecules, cells, (not to mention the trillions of associated sub-atomic particles) represent for us as thinking and responsible Units the Karmic impress of our motives when we generated the choice and initiated a change in and around us. NOTHING IS EVER "LOST." And we can further bedazzle ourselves in thought, if we consider that these enormous figures (individual skandhas -- or karmic Units), are all guided by the rules of analogy and correspondence. Each of these small (to us) Units is one of our 'children.' We attracted it, we placed it where it presently is, we used it, and finally we sent it out into the world and universe charged with the images of our nature and the choices we make and made. If we were to review the first Vol. of the S.D. one of the important similarities we might grasp is that every image of the evolutionary scheme given there, and every Being which regulates and participates in recreating an earth, world, or system, in which it can live, is analogetic to our every re-incarnation. We draw and organize the entire plan and procedure of recreating a physical, emotional, mental and spiritual environment in this condition where a living MONAD and Mind, picks up the burdens of its past, and majestically proceeds on its continued journey. It is a picture of what we are and what we can do. It also shows us what the bonds of brotherhood are fundamentally and superficially as we continually cycle around each other, and interlap and overlap constantly. Just as in our daily sleep and waking cycles our memory of past days and years is not obliterated by last night's sleep, so with the Universes, a new Manvantara (manifestation) does not obliterate the far older ones, but represents in fact the cumulated KARMA for all beings of all their past as IMMORTAL PILGRIMS. For our present personality to which a minute, an hour, a day appear to be time elements of appreciable extent, so to the IMMORTAL HIGHER SELF, that is the real Man ( or CONSCIOUSNESS) and, is at any time, the summation of all its yesterdays. Our present easily recallable superficial memories are seen to be underlaid with deeper and far more complete memories and records -- as hypnotism has demonstrated. I think it is more important to seek for similarities and analogies than constantly seeking for differences, which on close analysis do not appear all that significant.. What do you think? Look on Manas as that faculty which serves as a focus, or a fulcrum, and which is a transmission point between the vastness of our past experience (and added to that, the past of all the beings in our Universe -- as analogy and LAW -- ) and the vastness of the potentials of the future. We as free-willed choosers will always be opening those new vistas and will always be in the company of fellow immortal Pilgrims -- with the same capacities and potentials as we have. It is the movement of a great host of brothers. The Present represents one side of the cone-funnel of Being and the other side is the cone-funnel of potentials. Humanity is a single family, even if our present physiological heredity is not (seemingly) that close. If you and I were able to go back over the generations of our families and seek for relations in the past, we would find that we and all the rest of humanity emanate from a few ROOT-STOCKS. This would represent physical heredity. For the emotional, and intellectual heredity, we would have to develop senses that are capable of penetrating and identifying the records of Akasic (UNIVERSAL) memory where those records are impacted forever. Then we would also find the many times that we have been in close contact assisting ourselves and each-other down the ages. And that, I think is a great concept to dwell on. No relation is ever lost in such a system. No "involvement" is either unimportant, or forgotten, but each receives its due response in the great HARMONY of Nature (see S.D. II 420 on the importance of HARMONY and of SELF-REDEMPTION). The Lower Manas and personal mind is staggered by view of the enormous number of factors that always accompany every instant of our lives. Hence in occultism the sensitivity of Nature is dealt with as a most important factor -- we are creators. And, as creators, our responsibilities are vast. The stage we and the rest of humanity has come to is one in which this responsibility is exhibited in all its complexity. It forms the actual basis for understanding KARMA and the way in which we (and everyone else) construct our FUTURE (individually and jointly). This is one of the reasons why THE SECRET DOCTRINE was written for us to use and study in this CYCLE. It must be a very significant one for our future development, we whose Karma it is to approach and begin to understand the vastness of the subjects treated therein. Best wishes, Dallas ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 3:31 AM RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- VALUE OF METAPHYSICS Responding to: RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- VALUE OF METAPHYSICS Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:21:49 -0800 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dallas wrote: "This ONE SOURCE can only be expressed in terms of infinitudes in time, distance, and motion. Any "solidity" on any plane of matter might be considered to be the result of motion in time and space. But the concept of MOTION alone demands a depth of beginning which can never be defined in either "time," or in "space.". Each plane of matter therefore demands a record of events, motions, purpose, achievement, etc... and such a record would be permanent and eternal -- These in their totality are BUDDHI -- the wisdom of experience." ===================== In other words (?), could one say that "Buddhi" refers to a Buddhic FOCUS encompassing a universe: that universe representing "Buddhi" in a form that might be known as "Universal Wisdom": that "Wisdom" (of the universe) being the current state of Karmic involvement and evolution of all Monads in that universe? That is, could one say that the focus of Atma-derived Buddhi (or Atma-Buddhi) within a Karmic environment produces forms of universal wisdom in Atmic terms: the nature of those "terms" being expressed more-specifically by a Buddhic (or Atma-Buddhic) focus known as "our universe." What might be a reasonable sense in which one might think about "Buddhi" and "Atma" and "Manas" (?): I've had trouble picturing a "ray" of any kind, but the word "focus" seems to have more possibilities for me. So that "Buddhi" could mean (?) the current focus of Universal Wisdom represented by the current state of Karmic (Karmically involved/derived) Wisdom represented by/within a universe/Manvantara: the degree and nature of that Universal Wisdom being fundamentally measured and compared against the Atmic source of that Buddhic focus. So the Manasic aspect of that Buddhic focus would represent the current degree and nature of collective Karmic (or Karmically-derived) Manasic Wisdom? In other words, "Wisdom", in the broadest sense (or A broader sense, at any rate), could be seen as represented by Everything, so that Everything = Wisdom, in Atma-Buddhic terms? If so, and if Wisdom is a derivative of Karma, and if that Karma is Atma-derived, then the Buddhic focus of that Atma-derived Karma would seem (?) to contain within it the codes and clues that, within the Manasic aspect of that Buddhic focus, would "offer" us the necessary opportunities by which we (the Monads) might solve/absolve our Karmically focused limitations? ------------------------------------- DTB These cannot be separated as intertwined they represent the moral progress of all the beings and Minds involved. The ethico-moral link is the important one which theosophy restores to importance as it furnishes the "reason why" ========================== Something like that? Mauri P.S. --- Thanks for that very insightful-sounding post, Dallas. It seems to have somehow supplied some missing links for me, I think . . . Or did I go off on an imaginary tangent? I tried to clarify my intended meaning above by various different wordings. From oom_2001@yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 12:18:24 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: oom_2001@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 20:18:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 36389 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 20:18:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 20:18:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web5201.mail.yahoo.com) (216.115.106.95) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 20:18:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20001221201822.25361.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.160.235.102] by web5201.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:18:22 PST Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:18:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-709393584-977429902=:23833" From: Stanley Zurawski --0-709393584-977429902=:23833 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Kathleen; Are you in Italy? I have over 150 people who have taken my course on Spirituality who have taken my couse. The reason I ask is that I have written my course in English and I would need some to translate since I am on the Interner. Kathleen Arc wrote: Dear Dallas -- So INTERESTING that you combine Intuition with Compassion. I agree. Only with the Compassion of Unconditional Love do we rise above the lower manasic plane of judgment, condemnation and the like -- to the Higher Intuitive Realms where we might receive a glimpse of the Divine. Much love to all of you for the Holidays. Kat in cool clear grey-lighted Italy --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-709393584-977429902=:23833 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Dear Kathleen;

Are you in Italy? I have over 150 people who have taken my course on Spirituality who have taken my couse. The reason I ask is that I have written my course in English and I would need some to translate since I am on the Interner.

  Kathleen Arc <KArc@compuserve.com> wrote:

Dear Dallas -- So INTERESTING that you combine Intuition with Compassion.
I agree. Only with the Compassion of Unconditional Love do we rise above
the lower manasic plane of judgment, condemnation and the like -- to the
Higher Intuitive Realms where we might receive a glimpse of the Divine.
Much love to all of you for the Holidays. Kat in cool clear grey-lighted
Italy



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-709393584-977429902=:23833-- From arthra999@yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 13:18:32 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 21 Dec 2000 21:18:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 23257 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 21:18:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Dec 2000 21:18:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cj.egroups.com) (10.1.2.82) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 21:18:31 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.52] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2000 21:18:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:18:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Aurobindo's Yoga Sadhana: Message-ID: <91ts2h+u5oo@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <910s61+nmkr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8785 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.175 From: arthra999@yahoo.com I was able to secure a copy of Diwakar's "Yogi Aurobindo" as quoted by Daniel Cantwell...who apparently quoted it from another source. It is clear from Diwakar's source that the time of this episode with Master K.H. occurred sometime between 1908 and 1910 in Calcutta. The actual source is apparently Kavibhusan B.G. Khaparde who wrote his book in Marathi. Since we do not have access to Khaparde's text we do not know the context of the remarks. Here is the quotation: "Mahayogi Sri Aurobindo, Life, Discipline and Teachings of Sri Aurobindo." by Ranganath Ramchandra Diwakar Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Chowpatty, Bombay 1967 p. 248 7. Kavibhusan B.G. Khaparde mentions ("Yogi Aurobindo and occult or esoteric knowledge"-in Marathi, published in 1956) that one day Sri Aurobindo while in Calcutta (during 1908-1910) told him, `once when I was practicing Yoga, He whom the Theosophists call Master K.H. (Kuthumi) came and stood before me and watched my Yoga. I requested him to accept to accept me as his disciple; but he said `Your Master is different.' But what is the context for the above quotation? On page 247, Diwakar explains: "There have been speculations and statements by biographers and writers about Sri Aurobindo's Guru. He himself has however made things perfectly clear in this regard by dropping hints and suggestions once and again. "That his was mostly a `guided' life is evident and his references to this phenomenon are more than clear. It is equally clear that sometimes Aurobindo has referred to a voice or voices. He has referred to Shakti which can and does mean the personification of the Supreme Power, transcendent yet immanent. "Other references may be mentioned as follows : 1. He learnt his first lessons in Pranayam from an engineer... 2. Yogi Vishnu Bhaskar Lele was helpful to him... 3. Sometimes Sri Aurobindo used the planchette but that was not for any guidance in his Spiritual Sadhana.. 4. While in Alipore Jail, Sri Aurobindo heard Vivekananda's voice for a few days but that was for explaining some problems regarding higher stages towards life divine ... 5. When questioned directly about his Uttarpara speech regarding his experiences in Alipore Jail, Sri Aurobindo is reported to have replied... It is true, Sri krishna used to come to me , and I have passed many nights in his arms. ... 6. Sri Aurobindo has made no secret of the very great and substantial contribution made by Mother to his progress... but this does not shed any light on the question of Sri Aurobindo's Guru. 7. (The quotation above regarding Master K.H. quoted above) and Diwaker continues on page 249: "It is obvious that neither Master Kuthumi nor his associate, Master M. who presides (according to Theosophy) over human evolution was Sri Aurobindo's guru." Diwakar concludes: "From all the foregoing ...it clearly emerges that Sri Aurobindo had no human person as a Guru,that he had help and guidance from different people and forces at different times in connection with different spiritual problems and Sadhana, that some Voice guided him at crucial times and though it might have been identified by him, he did not choose to name it, and that it was Supreme Shakti enthroned in his own heart, who was in complete charge of his Sadhana and Siddhi." What are we to make of all this? If Sri Aurobindo had a meeting with the Master K.H. in 1908-1910, it is apparent that he later appears to downplay it's significance in the 1938 interview quoted earlier. Sri Aurobindo is also reported hearing the voice of Swami Vivekananda. It is also reported he consulted the planchette, and according to Diwakar, Sri Aurobindo dictated a whole book from sessions with the planchette called "Uttar Yogi"! Sri Aurobindo himself stopped the republication of "Uttar Yogi" as he "was not its author" per Diwakar. I wanted to thank Daniel for bringing the Diwakar material to my attention as in my readings of Aurobindo i hadn't heard of this before. Is the above evidence that Sri Aurobindo met the Master K.H.? If we take the material at face value and accept it as genuine, then we must also accept as genuine that Sri Aurobindo met the Lord Sri Krishna and actually heard the voice of Swami Vivekananda while in the Alipore jail! What we are most likely dealing with here in my view are the visions of a Saint... rather than bona fide physical realities, but that doesn't necessarily detract from Aurobindo's genius and character. - Arthur Gregory --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, arthra999@y... wrote: > According to sources available on-line Aurobindo began his > Yoga sadhana in 1904 ...this was followed by four years of > silence and finally in 1914 he beagn writing about Yoga: > > > During all his stay at Pondicherry from 1910 onward he > remained more and more exclusively devoted to his spiritual > work and his sadhana. > > In 1914 after four years of silent Yoga he began the publication of > a philosophical monthly, the Arya. Most of his more important > works, The Life Divine, The Synthesis of Yoga, Essays on the > Gita, The Isha Upanishad, appeared serially in the Arya. These > works embodied much of the inner knowledge that had come to > him in his practice of Yoga. Others were concerned with the spirit > and significance of Indian civilisation and culture (The > Foundations of Indian Culture), the true meaning of the Vedas > (The Secret of the Veda), the progress of human society (The > Human Cycle), the nature and evolution of poetry (The Future > Poetry), the possibility of the unification of the human race (The > Ideal of Human Unity). At this time also he began to publish his > poems, both those written in England and at Baroda and those, > fewer in number, added during his period of political activity and > in the first years of his residence at Pondicherry. The Arya > ceased publication in 1921 after six years and a half of > uninterrupted appearance. Sri Aurobindo lived at first in > retirement at Pondicherry with four or five disciples. Afterwards > more and yet more began to come to him to follow his spiritual > path and the number became so large that a community of > sadhaks had to be formed for the maintenance and collective > guidance of those who had left everything behind for the sake of > a higher life. This was the foundation of the Sri Aurobindo > Ashram which has less been created than grown around him as > its centre. > > Sri Aurobindo began his practice of Yoga in 1904. At first > gathering into it the essential elements of spiritual experience > that are gained by the paths of divine communion and spiritual > realisation followed till now in India, he passed on in search of a > more complete experience uniting and harmonising the two > ends of existence, Spirit and Matter. Most ways of Yoga are paths > to the Beyond leading to the Spirit and, in the end, away from life; > Sri Aurobindo's rises to the Spirit to redescend with its gains > bringing the light and power and bliss of the Spirit into life to > transform it. Man's present existence in the material world is in > this view or vision of things a life in the Ignorance with the > Inconscient at its base, but even in its darkness and nescience > there are involved the presence and possibilities of the Divine. > The created world is not a mistake or a vanity and illusion to be > cast aside by the soul returning to heaven or Nirvana, but the > scene of a spiritual evolution by which out of this material > inconscience is to be manifested progressively the Divine > Consciousness in things. Mind is the highest term yet reached > in the evolution, but it is not the highest of which it is capable. > There is above it a Supermind or eternal Truth-Consciousness > which is in its nature the self-aware and self-determining light > and power of a Divine Knowledge. Mind is an ignorance seeking > after Truth, but this is a self-existent Knowledge harmoniously > manifesting the play of its forms and forces. It is only by the > descent of this supermind that the perfection dreamed of by all > that is highest in humanity can come. It is possible by opening to > a greater divine consciousness to rise to this power of light and > bliss, discover one's true self, remain in constant union with the > Divine and bring down the supramental Force for the > transformation of mind and life and body. To realise > thispossibility has been the dynamic aim of Sri Aurobindo's > Yoga. > > excerpted from his biography found at > http://www.miraura.org/bio/sketch-a.html > > ********************************************************************** From KArc@compuserve.com Fri Dec 22 07:05:38 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 22 Dec 2000 15:05:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 76366 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 15:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Dec 2000 15:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sphmgaac.compuserve.com) (149.174.177.148) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 15:05:33 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by sphmgaac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id KAA01931 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:03:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:03:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012221003_MC2-BF8F-4ED5@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Yes I am in Italy. To whom am I responding? Dallas? There was no name on the request. Let me know. Love for the Holidays. Kat in Italy From oom_2001@yahoo.com Fri Dec 22 17:24:29 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: oom_2001@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 01:24:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 80827 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 01:24:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 01:24:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web5201.mail.yahoo.com) (216.115.106.95) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 01:24:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20001223012427.2113.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.160.23.85] by web5201.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:24:27 PST Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:24:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-603570492-977534667=:1462" From: Stanley Zurawski --0-603570492-977534667=:1462 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My name is Stanley Zurawski and I live in Ventura California and and have a place in Malibu. I am a Mystic, I have develope a spritual course and have mystic techniques you can apply and begin to get in touch with the Spiritual Hierarchy. You can get in touch with by E-mail. I have over two hundred students. I would like you to be able to translate my course from English to Italian. I use to visit Italy every year for 10 years, but since I am on the internet I told them to contact me by E-mail and they are afraid of computers. Now I would like to send you some of my Lessons that you can read and let me know How I can send you my lessons to you. I shall close now and lets be in touch. There are a lot of people in different cities in Italy and if you want I will send you their address that you can get in touch with them either by mail or telephone. I want to thank you for responding so soon. Kathleen Arc wrote: Yes I am in Italy. To whom am I responding? Dallas? There was no name on the request. Let me know. Love for the Holidays. Kat in Italy --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-603570492-977534667=:1462 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My name is Stanley Zurawski and I live in Ventura California and and have a place in Malibu. I am a Mystic, I have develope a spritual course and have mystic techniques you can apply and begin to get in touch with the Spiritual Hierarchy. You can get in touch with by E-mail. I have over two hundred students. I would like you to be able to translate my course from English to Italian. I use to visit Italy every year for 10 years, but since I am on the internet I told them to contact me by E-mail and they are afraid of computers. Now I would like to send you some of my Lessons that you can read and let me know How I can send you my lessons to you. I shall close now and lets be in touch. There are a lot of people in different cities in Italy and if you want I will send you their address that you can get in touch with them either by mail or telephone.

I want to thank you for responding so soon.  


 

  Kathleen Arc <KArc@compuserve.com> wrote:

Yes I am in Italy. To whom am I responding? Dallas? There was no name on
the request. Let me know. Love for the Holidays. Kat in Italy



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-603570492-977534667=:1462-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 00:02:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 08:02:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 22824 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 08:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 08:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 09:03:55 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0158.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.158]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA09256; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:02:49 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:58:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200012221003_MC2-BF8F-4ED5@compuserve.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net No "Kat" it was not my post to you. Dallas PS I would never claim to have instituted classes in "Spirituality" I am sure that each person given the same threads to the wisdom Religion is capable of setting up their own "classes." Inasmuch as each one has to learn how to be "spiritual" based on the universal and fundamental laws of our Universe. We have THE SECRET DOCTRINE as a source and text to use each of us. And we can call for assistance and help but also realise that each of us sees things in their own way and based on their own limited experience. D ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Arc [mailto:KArc@compuserve.com] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:03 AM To: INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Yes I am in Italy. To whom am I responding? Dallas? There was no name on the request. Let me know. Love for the Holidays. Kat in Italy From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 00:04:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 08:04:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 24994 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 08:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 08:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 08:04:33 -0000 Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA13441 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:15:36 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0158.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.158]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA09048; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:02:39 -0800 (PST) To: "Mauri Hart" Subject: RE: [bn-basic] RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- RELIGIONS Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:58:15 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 22, 2000 Re: Origin of Religions WISDOM THEN -- CONFUSION NOW Dear Mauri: The problem with most religions is that there is a wide difference between the ORIGINAL basic tenets of that religion and the current practice. Most peoples have allowed the "Priests, Padres, Curates, etc..." to handle the matter of teaching religion -- and have left it UNSUPERVISED. Inquiry into rites ritual and credo are NOT INVITED. By the clergy -- In fact anyone who does this outside the close supervision of the Church, Temple, etc. is deemed to be, and treated, as a "heretic." [ An old word which means an INQUIRER, or one who QUESTIONS.] In most cases the lack of supervision has allowed the priesthood to take over the people and impose on them from childhood (or by peer pressure) their special and self-interested concept of morals, culture, knowledge, functions, etc... They claim to have divine inspiration and the creeds the impose on the unsuspecting are distortions of the ORIGINALS. Anyone who has witnessed in the past 100 years the attempts to restore the "Bible" to its original meaning (as translated into modern languages) will realise how much distortion existed in the older versions. But, how many are diligent and sincere in examining for themselves this evidence? In orthodox circles, anyone who inquires into the reason WHY things are done (by the Church) in some unusual or irrational way, is deemed to be the "enemy," or under the influence of a "Devil." Theosophy is called the WISDOM RELIGION because it invites ALL to enquire into its (Nature's) BASIC TENETS and their PRACTICAL APPLICATION in DAILY LIFE by ANYONE. It looks on the rules and laws of the Universe (call it NATURE), as being a sense common to everyone -- "common-sense." Truth is Universal, and no one can "patent it (not even a 'religion.'" It therefore approaches morality and ethics, and the way in which we deal with others, from an impersonal and a universal stance. Any exceptions are dealt with on the basis of that which applies universally, regardless of place, time, or tradition. If LAW (Karma) rules the whole UNIVERSE, then even exceptions are eventually seen to actuate and draw out from Universal Experience a Law which is appropriate to that "exception." And this will be in terms we can understand and which common-sense would recognize. Meta (beyond) physics (actuality) are deemed to offer common views of the Universe and of the purpose of existence for any being or creature, whether this be a grain of sand, an amoeba, a fish, a bird, an elephant, a human , a God, a Solar system, a Nebula, or the whole UNIVERSE itself. ALL ARE ONE. LAW is a common factor, just as SPIRIT, MOTION, SPACE and MATTER are. Wisdom being ONE, the religions, without exception, new or old, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Chinese, or any you may happen to know of, all originate in the same fundamental idea(s). What are some of them (expressed of course in my words, and as I see it.) ? 1. DEITY. before "Manifestation." (The totally indefinable.) "GOD" -- as the NON-MANIFEST POTENTIAL, is EVERYTHING and INDEFINABLE Numerical symbol is ZERO " 0 " [ A circle, or a Sphere.] It is SPACE UNDEFINED in any way. It is wholly unlimited. Minds that are in manifestation can only deduce ITS necessary presence. The words ABSOLUTE and ABSOLUTENESS are used for IT. It is the eternal and non-manifest SOURCE for LAW, MOTION, TIME, SPACE, and all forms and beings. It is totally undisturbed when these "manifest." It is not a "substance" as substance implies limits of some kind 2. DEITY in MANIFESTATION (Our present situation midway in this one.) ALL manifestation is an emanation from and within this ABSOLUTENESS, Which remains unaffected by any change [ just as 'space' remains, whether a brick is placed in it or taken away from it ]. SPACE IS (and as such cannot be defined). 3. DEITY as PERFECTION in all things (the End or Goal of Manifestation). "GOD" -- as SPRIT (and PERFECTION) is INFINITE, TIMELESS, ALL-PERVASIVE, and ALL-WISE (because of the accumulation of experience). Numerical Symbol for the total focus of Manifestation is ONE = " 1 " It is SINGULAR. [Under the Law of Cycles and Karma]...It radiates of itself innumerable "Rays" which impinging on the smallest aspects of Matter form when so joined the innumerable MONADS . [S.D. I 619-34] Numerically we may say that the "rays" are infinitude -- uncountable, as they Serve to work indifferent as to whether they animate an atom, a human, or an Earth or, a whole Universe. "GOD " -- as EVER-CONJOINED SPIRIT/MATTER, is the MONAD, or the basic division of Form in ever-undefined SPACE. MONADS animate and bear the Karma of each smallest form of matter as of the greatest. They unify all differences into a single UNITY and form the basis for "Universal brotherhood." Numerically they are represented by a DUAD = 2. In actuality they form a Triad when their Source the ABSOLUTE is also considered. [Duality is ceaseless and limitless expansion. The TRIAD gives the limitations of form.] "GOD" -- as Matter (forms, limitations, constant change, substance, cosmos, etc...) Numerical Symbol is ALL NUMBERS, but The MONAD, as specifically the VEHICLE of a "Ray" of SPIRIT, it is one of the Uncountable MONADS of Spirit/Matter. All beings and forms are centered on a Single Monad which has acquired greater experience. It is the natural duty of any "advanced" Monad to guide and assist those Monads which are attracted to it by Law. 4. MATTER or limitations, defined by the progressive evolution and development of CONSCIOUSNESS in any one or group of Monads. Individual, group, family and race, or national KARMA (the CYCLIC LAW of RECIPROCITY -- a Definition of CAUSE and its resultant EFFECT) operate on several planes. "MATTER " -- as form and limitation, within which there is constant change, includes time and motion. These three: form, time and motion, define the limits of Karmic effects. Karma operates when any change occurs, because change is ALWAYS the result of choices and decisions by self-willed, independent Beings: Minds, Emotions, Desires, Feelings, etc... are the MOTIVES in such cases 5. MAHAT - MINDS -- are the plans and Karma of the Universe and every being. It is an energy, independent of either Spirit or Matter, but capable of both recording all their interactions, and of generating new ones. [ I believe that it has this capability because it is the ever-present agent or representative of the ABSOLUTE. It is "ever the same," and being "stable" it is able to compare the interaction of all Karma. Numerically it is 4 - represented by a square or cube. Mind as a principle in evolution, and associated with the incremental experience of a MONAD, is triple: 1. Buddhi-Manas (able to partake of the universal wisdom in the Akasa); 2. Manas as OBSERVER and WITNESS; (and agent for the ABSOLUTE ?); and 3. Kama-Manas as the mind involved in personal desire and passions 6. DESIRE -- KAMA -- as the principle (for life, feeling and action) that is ever unsatisfied, and which needs "others" to come and "complete" it. Emotions and Feelings. It is a sense of isolation that is ever unrequited. Being unitary, and thinking it is aloof and isolated from 'others,' it frames a deluded attitude, and in this, it opposes the cyclic laws of Karmic evolution. This continually disturbs the even flow of progress, development and delays the achieving of "Perfection." This may be noticed in the individual so afflicted and by those who surround him. It attracts the mind and when a reflection of the Mind is enmeshed by it we have the average, present-day state of consciousness Kama-Manas (the desire-mind) in us all.. The desire to create a creed with ritualism, ceremonies, and instruction causes those who understood these things intellectually, ("Eye-Doctrine") to degrade and debase them into control systems -- which most "religions" of today are found to exercise. The "Heart-Doctrine is either not understood, or understood so well that it is suppressed deliberately. The primary tool is keeping the "flock" ignorant, and anathematizing "thought" and "questioning." Religions, bye and large, are money making organizations. GOD has been transformed into a "proud Father" capable of making whimsical grants to his worshipers. MATTER is the Universal MOTHER. MIND is designated the "Son," the intercessor, and is prayed to. DESIRE is the common basis for most of our selfish modern living regardless of mercy, justice, compassion or wisdom. The LOSSES to True Religion (or that which ought to bind humanity into a single brotherhood) have been: [ True Religion would be in my esteem one of complete freedom and access to the records of wisdom, and all traditions being viewed with suspicion, and carefully re-examined. ] 1. The Inherent Good-hood of Man. A "ray" of the ABSOLUTE is present in all humanity. 2. The respect for the feminine: mother, sister, wife, daughter. [The MONAD is sexless.] 3. The concepts of Law-universal: justice, wisdom, fairness, brotherhood and compassion. 4. The community of a living host or mass of brother-souls animated with the same ONE SPIRIT. 5. A reasonable Goal of Perfection. Perhaps, defined as Universal SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. No "Personal" God." And "prayer" to be abolished [ S.D. I 416 467-9 ] 6. An ethico-moral base for living and treating all others, with no conditions or exceptions. All humans are equal, every speck of "matter" is potentially human, and is a MONAD.. 7. The knowledge that each one is an ETERNAL PILGRIM engaged in a cooperative and interactive endeavour to reach the Perfection of all Knowledge and the kind of Consciousness which embraces the Universe. At that point there are, and cannot be any "mysteries" that remain veiled to the "All-seeing Eye of Wisdom." The Buddhists call this state of universal vision : "Samma-Sambuddha." The Hindus speak of the "Divine Eye" which Krishna gave to Arjuna ( BHAGAVAD GITA Chapter 11 . This ought to answer the specific questions you raise. Karma, Law, Nature, ethics and morals are all common to every individual or race, regardless of color, creed, location or heredity and culture or traditions. Differences become abolished and the innate UNITY of all becomes the basis for all decision-making. One may now understand why H.P.B. in her THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY speaks of the 4 golden links that should bind humanity into one family, one brotherhood: : 1. Universal Unity and Causation, 2. Human Solidarity; 3. The Law of Karma; 4. Reincarnation I do hope this is of some help, let me know, Dallas =========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:12 AM Subject: RE First Fundamental Proposition S.D. Responding to: [bn-sd] RE: Summary of First Fundamental Who wrote, in part: "If we consider that Manas, in 'man', corresponds to Mahat in the Universe we see the great potential that is awaiting humanity. For it is through Manas, and Manas alone, that we have the possibility of reflecting the 'latent ideation' or 'Wisdom' of Atma-Buddhi (the Monad). Latent Wisdom may then become Wisdom in action. The more that we are capable of doing so, the more we will be able to become intelligent co-workers with Nature. "Divine thought cannot be defined, or its meaning explained, except by the numberless manifestations of Cosmic Substance in which the former is sensed spiritually by those who can do so." (SD I 327) ======================== If the various religions throughout history can be said to be interpretations of Devine Thought, seems as if there's been plenty of attempts to define and explain that Devine Thought. One has to start somewhere, I suppose. --------------------------------- DTB The origins of all religions can be traced to a reform instituted by a Prophet, a Sage, or a very wise Man/Woman of an earlier religion which had become debased. Christianity is a good example as Jesus came "but to the strayed sheep of the house of Israel." [ NOTE: He did not come to reform the "gentiles." It was left to Bishop Eusebius of Caesaria, and the influence he had over Constantine to secure the universalization by force of his variety of Christianity over the whole of Europe, wherever the ROMAN EMPIRE extended (this is History). =========================== The split between the ancient theosophical Wisdom Religion/Gupta Vidaya (WR/GV) and its various interpretive derivatives (such as the current more-popular religions) has apparently come about as a result of ego-centric politic motivations: ------------------------------------------- DTB YES -- also "good business" so long as motives are not closely examined. ================================= So that (?), if that split is a manifestation of Karma, and if Karma is a derivative of (or made possible by?) Atma (or "all that is"?) in some fundamental sense (or in some inter-line capacity?), then it would seem as if an Atma-Buddhic Karmic focus resulted in a split that, among other things, (and, in keeping with the nature and "fairness" of Karma), also has within that focus all of the necessary aspects (such as "learning opportunities") by which the collective Manasic perspective can, potentially, evolve to a "higher" level of insight and being: In other words (?), that "fairness" of Karma might be said to be "Fair" in the sense that the Atma-Buddhic Karmic focus (or Kama-Manas stage) allows for Monadic "choice-making" in terms that address the question of whether one chooses to assert of one's Self (along the lines of the WR/GV), or not?: Those collective "nots" having led to the various ego-centric interpretive permutations such as today's popular "religious beliefs." And no wonder, since an appreciation of the WR is not nearly as simplistic. ----------------------------------------------------------------- DTB Not correct. Review the 7 Principles and their characteristics. ATMA is not a Tyrant or a Dictator. ATMA may be called MATTER on the 7th highest plane, and MATTER may be called ATMA on the 7th lowest plane. In between are the balance principles MANAS (Mind) and Kama (desire) These form the nexus or focus for the unification of all 7 principles and also provide CONSCIOUSNESS. CONSCIOUSNESS is independent of either Spirit or Matter. It (as a condition or state, or stage of evolution) presents the EGO (a MONAD that has achieved self-consciousness, and free will -- an: "I-AM-I" ) with the all-important decision-making opportunity of choosing the Path of Spiritual Enlightenment or the Path of Selfish Isolation. The Path of Spiritual Enlightenment is the one that leads back to the constructive and cooperative work of the brotherhood of ALL BEINGS. This brings to its assistance the whole force in the Universe of the urge to PERFECT LIVING and UNDERSTANDING of the vast reason for cooperative living. If you look at your physical self and all forms around, you will notice that there is in existence a cooperative system which enables all such beings to live and assist one another. The "death" of one form is not the extinction of its LIVING BEING as that is preserved and finds a new residence in an emerging and fresh form. [Re-embodiment and re-incarnation] The Path of Selfish Isolation eventually makes of the Ego that chooses this, an enemy to all other beings in the Universe. This Ego draws on its residence in the ABSOLUTENESS the energy to resist the constructive trend of the brotherhood of all beings. This brings on great pain and continual suffering for such an Ego. No other being desires to be associated with such an one. Nature abhors this kind of attitude and only some others who have adopted similar views allow themselves to be attracted to such an isolationist consciousness, knowing that they will either have to grow in power of resistance or succumb to it and surrender their real spiritual life to a series of transitory and painful physical existences. ============================================ One might wonder what kind of Karmic scenario led to that split. What kind of cause of the predecessors of the WR might have resulted in the kind of Karma that led to the destruction and suppression of the WR? I wonder if one possible explanation might be that, at some prior time or Manvantara, the predecessors of the WR were far less advanced in insight and knowledge, and so, as a result of their ignorance and ego-centric behaviors, suppressed and destroyed anything that represented a perceived threat to them from whatever at the time represented that threat that was comparable to what later became the WR. (?) Or, might there have been a different cause that nevertheless resulted in a similar outcome? =========================================== DTB The WISDOM RELIGION seeks no converts. Its expression is simply that of letting the independent seeker know that the laws and pathways of Nature are already explored and that he is free to examine anything in Nature and adopt or reject the records of the past. Theosophy is only a restatement of the discoveries made aeons ago by Wise men and Great Explorers. If one reads the SECRET DOCTRINE and ISIS UNVEILED attentively the reader secures for himself a verifiable review of the HISTORY of the world, in religions, arts, sciences, evolution. The study of comparative religions, creeds, mythologies, numbers, geometry, astronomy and symbols is opened up before him. It is all free. The truly disturbing thing is: With such wisdom available, why was it not more widely diffused in the past? Why was it hidden? Who made themselves responsible for its concealment? Why was the justice and mercy of Karma concealed and the thought introduced that by special prayers and contrition one might secure from "God" some kind of dispensation? Why is the doing of concealed EVIL so attractive ? Best wishes, Dallas ================================================= Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 05:30:22 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 13:30:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 5679 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 13:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 13:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 13:30:21 -0000 Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20190 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:41:24 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0057.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.57]) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA20202; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:30:13 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-SD-BN" Subject: Your last inquiry about the puzzle of EVIL out of GOOD Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:26:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 23, 2000 Dear Mauri: Further to the long answer I sent to you on this account yesterday, I was reading through some of the sections of the S.D. and came across the reference to this question -- or close to it. See S.D. II 489- 91.) Apparently the movement of KARMIC indebtedness -- which is also without limits in TIME, moves and this is the opposite of the "pure quiescence" (also "morbid inactivity") of PURE SPIRIT. (see S.D. II 103).. It is futile I think to look for some ABSOLUTE BEGINNING. The ABSOLUTENESS will not respond to inquiry or probe from our finite minds. What is left? Our situation. We have minds that can probe the INFINITE (without arriving at any distinct conclusion -- but a kind of haze. I would call it the "haze" which surrounds all such searches for finitude or beginnings or even endings. WE ARE HERE. And we are dealing with the present, and that (by Karma) arises out of our PAST. If you do have the S.D. and a good index, then why not use it and seek for the answers that are there. Apart from actually finding a mental satisfaction, the study may lead to deeper areas also. That has been my experience. But all metaphysical searches have to have a practical application in our lives, or there are only mental pass-times. The identification of certain attitudes in thought and feeling is an important aspect of Theosophical research -- and we are, all of us, seekers. Best wishes for the coming year, Dal ============================= From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Dec 23 05:43:06 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 13:43:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 85157 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 13:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 13:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmgaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.134) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 13:43:06 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id IAA03640 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:43:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:42:46 -0500 Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012230842_MC2-BFB1-B376@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Dear Dallas -- I was having a bit of fun -- knew it wasn't you. Much love for the holidays and thanks for the clarity -- as always. Kat in Italy From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Dec 23 05:48:07 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 13:48:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 34410 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 13:48:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 13:48:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmbaaa.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.153) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 14:49:12 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id IAA26193 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:48:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:47:39 -0500 Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- RELIGIONS Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012230847_MC2-BFB1-B392@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc The doing of concealed evil is so attractive because to the unintiated it seems without karma -- ha ha. As this is the time of kali yuga --- otherwise known as INSTANT KARMA, at least in my case -- encore ha ha to that. All I know is everytime I start to self-righteously judge =3D=3D anything =3D=3D I wind up seeing it in myself. Love, kat From KArc@compuserve.com Sat Dec 23 06:21:02 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: KArc@compuserve.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 14:21:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 58043 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 14:21:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 14:21:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO spdmgaaf.compuserve.com) (149.174.206.139) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 15:22:07 -0000 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmgaaf.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id JAA04159 for theos-talk@egroups.com; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:20:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:19:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Sender: Kathleen Arc To: "INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com" Message-ID: <200012230920_MC2-BFB1-B430@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline From: Kathleen Arc Dear Stanley -- Yes I live in Italy but I do NOT speak Italian -- at least not well enough to be someone's translator. I just moved here -- so I wish you well, but I'm not the girl for you. Happiest of holidays to you and yours, Kat in Italy From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 10:57:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 18:57:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 60828 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 18:57:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 18:57:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 18:57:50 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0013.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.13]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02005 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:57:49 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- RELIGIONS Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:53:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <200012230847_MC2-BFB1-B392@compuserve.com> From: dalval14@earthlink.net Thanks Kat: How very true. Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen Arc [mailto:KArc@compuserve.com] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 5:48 AM To: INTERNET:theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] RE: Summary of First Fundamental -- RELIGIONS The doing of concealed evil is so attractive because to the unintiated it seems without karma -- ha ha. As this is the time of kali yuga --- otherwise known as INSTANT KARMA, at least in my case -- encore ha ha to that. All I know is everytime I start to self-righteously judge == anything == I wind up seeing it in myself. Love, kat From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 15:49:15 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 23 Dec 2000 23:49:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 35216 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 23:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 23 Dec 2000 23:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 23:49:10 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0032.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.32]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA09044; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:46:36 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-Dal" Subject: world's greatest medicine Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:42:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 23, 2000 GREETINGS AND BEST WISHES TO ALL FOR 20001 Dal & Val TenBroeck =================================================== Is Hugging a Miracle Drug ? Hugging is healthy, it helps our body's immune system; keeps you healthier; cures depression; reduces stress; induces sleep; is invigorating, rejuvenating; has no unpleasant side effects. Hugging is all natural, organic, contains no pesticides or preservatives, no artificial ingredients, wholesome, practically perfect and naturally sweet. Hugging has no batteries to wear out; no moveable parts; no periodic check-ups needed; non-fattening; inflation-proof; needs no monthly payments nor insurance; is theft proof; non taxable; non polluting and... of course in fully returnable. ================= From ringding@blinx.de Sat Dec 23 17:52:37 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 24 Dec 2000 01:52:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 58016 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2000 01:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 24 Dec 2000 01:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Dec 2000 01:52:36 -0000 Received: from captaink (cppp-137.blinx.de [62.96.222.137]) by mail.blinx.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA25851 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 02:52:18 +0100 Message-ID: <00a701c06d4c$40e27960$0100007f@captaink> To: Subject: Merry X-mas! Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 02:42:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C06D53.34694040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C06D53.34694040 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0040_01C06D53.34694040" ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C06D53.34694040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sisters & Brothers on the endless path! I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! May light shine in our hearts and thoughts and the rest of our world. Brotherly, Frank Visit the German theosophical mailing list: www.egroups.de/group/theosophie-dialog=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C06D53.34694040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sis= ters &=20 Brothers
on = the endless=20 path!
 
I w= ish you all a=20 Merry Christmas
and= a Happy New=20 Year!
 
May= light shine=20 in our hearts
and= thoughts and=20 the rest
of = our=20 world.
 
 
Bro= therly,=20 Frank
 
 
Vis= it the German=20 theosophical mailing list:
www.egroups.= de/group/theosophie-dialog=20
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dKTETyEMC7de1REBm54oByAD60uPmH0oAQFg27PbFAcqvvmm54/GpQAXORSHcTrgetHl5PAqYKMD il/hpiuRrbKQTUsUCg7qVegp8fSgm47AOcVWu2KMpFWR3qvdgFBQhplR3J781GTTmA3GmGk0XuTW i8SP6LUkGDH70Wv+oeo4Cd+M0pbDixVYGExngg1DzU84AlOBUJ61KGz/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C06D53.34694040-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 24 04:06:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 24 Dec 2000 12:06:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 91423 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2000 12:06:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2000 12:06:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 24 Dec 2000 12:06:15 -0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA03265 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 06:17:16 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0075.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.75]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA15957; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:05:51 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Re: celebrations? WHEN - HOW - WHY ? Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:01:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 24, 2000 Re: CELEBRATION When? How? Why? Dear Friends: If we assume that special dates (in manifested time) are indexes (and reminders) whereby certain MAGNETIC effects are renewed, then there is a reason for "celebration." I always think that the reason for any "celebration" ought to be carefully sought for and exposed to (first) our own understanding, and (second) give us an opportunity to check and review the "teachings" and "information" given concerning the "CELEBRATION." If we find that we can acquire greater understanding, providing that this data or information illumines or awakens ancient innate "memories," and causes (in ourselves) the Human EGO (Manas and Buddhi-Manas) to awaken to their duty of monitoring and controlling the LOWER MANAS ( our level of present consciousness (mind enmeshed in passions and desires) then the inner "Heart-Doctrine" aspect of a "celebration" is achieved. If, on the other hand we use the physical plane "celebration" as a period of rest and enjoyment, we may loose the real value of the event. If the 'disciple' has as one of his/her duties to maintain a close ATTENTION over the doings of its "LOWER SELF (Kama-Manas)" then such research can prove beneficial. Every ancient religion had "Lesser Mysteries." True. But beyond and behind them lie important truths, which students of occultism look for. For example. In S.D. II 488 we are given a survey of the Zoroastrian (Magian) theogony and survey of the metaphysics of evolution. This contains information relevant to the description of the MAHATMA named: "GREAT SACRIFICE" -- as described on S.D. I 208. It indicates that among the great "Creators" (Agents of the LOGOS) there is one who assumes the duty of remaining for a whole MANVANTARA (or MAHA-MANVANTARA (?) at the threshold of SUPREME and universal WISDOM. So, too the student who is also a burgeoning occultist stands to others at the threshold of a higher degree of wisdom. Wisdom is not personal knowledge, but, rather a knowledge of those cycles of celebration and also of the right information and duties to be communicated to others at some crucial time in the Earth's on-going pattern of history and development. The period 125 to 100 years ago evidently marked such a period. If, as taught, there is a 100 year cycle in place for the increase of the enlightenment of our world, then we have just been through such a period in the last 25 years. From such a time, what has emerged in each of us? What are the duties that will now be ours? Is this not an example of the kind of "celebration" we ought to consider ? One might say that the modern Theosophical Movement, and the publication of those books and essays which have as authors the Masters and H.P.B. are samples of the kind of "celebration" which it was their duty to offer -- to us. An illustration of this true kind of celebration which sets a pattern and marks the influence of Those who can set such things, will be found in one of Mr. Judge's stories concerning reincarnation -- "An Occult Novel" -- which he urged Jasper Niemand to write. [ see ULT Edn. of W. Q. Judge: LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME -- 1946 p. 256-7 -- On the consecration of the ancient "Temple" of Conjeveram (about 40 miles out of Madras) in South India, near the East coast. ] Another such set of "celebration" marking events will be found in Damodar's A HINDU CHELA'S DIARY -- reprinted in the 1st Vol. of PATH in 1896 (and then reprinted elsewhere as in: THEOSOPHY MAGAZINE [ Published by ULT, in Los Angeles, USA ] --- Vol. 3, pp. 218 265 305 356. also in THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT Magazine [ Published by ULT, Bombay, India] --- Vol. 10, pp. 89 98 ] Also reprinted in the book DAMODAR (A biography, and reprints of his writings) published by the TPS, London, Wheaton, Adyar. Thanks, Reed , for raising this point for our consideration. Best wishes to all, Dallas ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: Wes Amerman [mailto:amerman@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 1:10 PM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] Re: celebrations? Dear Friends, Reed asks: At this time of year do Theosophists celebrate? Do they ever celebrate? Is their heart in it? And Geeky replies: "Why not? We must try to remember that the study of religion is not religion. We can all be joyous, each in his own unique way, in any and all "seasons" Well, why not indeed? Why would "Theosophists" be exempt from this? If anything, we should strive to find the real joy in every season, and not suppose that because so many of our fellow humans celebrate poorly, that there is not a "proper" spirit in which to celebrate any occasion. The so-called "Lesser Mysteries" of antiquity were public festivals, collective celebrations wherein spiritual messages were communicated to the people in ways they could understand. Appropriate symbolisms were used -- the fir tree, star, interlaced triangle, a newborn infant, etc. -- as reminders of our spiritual heritage. Many no doubt listened, and fewer heard, but that did not stop the teachers from continuing to share their message. After all, how much of what we regard as "spiritual" do we really understand? Are we ready to undergo the higher celebration of the Greater Mysteries? We may only get but an uplifting feeling, without really understanding why, but that should not stop us from seeking the highest meanings we can. Just a thought from one student who tries to celebrate the Winter Solstice. Best Regards, Wes =========================== From arthra999@yahoo.com Sun Dec 24 04:47:51 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: arthra999@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 24 Dec 2000 12:47:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 1160 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2000 12:47:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2000 12:47:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ef.egroups.com) (10.1.2.111) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Dec 2000 12:47:50 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: arthra999@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.48] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Dec 2000 12:47:50 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:47:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Beware of Ketu! Message-ID: <924r9h+kitr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2301 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 206.101.3.188 From: arthra999@yahoo.com On December 25th a partial eclipse of the Sun will occur throughout most of North America. Believing that the obscuring disk was not the lunar satellite but the baleful planet Ketu, many Indian astrologers recommend staying indoors to protect yourself from the negative rays of Ketu, a negative planet that seeks to consume the sun! The event will be visible from Central America to Canada. At the peak of the eclipse -- 12:23 p.m. Eastern Standard Time (17:23 GMT) -- about 72 percent of the Sun will be covered, as seen from extreme northern Canada. What you can expect to see "As the Moon...slides past the Sun, you will observe the Moon's silhouette against the Sun's painful brightness," White said. "As the eclipse proceeds, you will see what appear to be larger and larger 'bites' taken from the solar disk, until, if you are living in any part of the northern Midwestern United States, the Northeast or eastern Canada, the Sun will appear at maximum of this partial solar eclipse to be a crescent." A partial solar eclipse is a chance to study the smooth curvature of the Moon's dark, lifeless disk contrasted with the searing energy of the Sun. And because the Sun is at the peak of it's 11-year cycle of activity, there is more energy than normal. Sunspots and eruptions of magnetic energy are rampant on the Sun right now because our star is at the peak of an 11-year activity cycle. "When people look at the Sun with proper eye protection, there is a reasonable chance that they will see sunspots," says University of Chicago astronomer Douglas Duncan. "If you project the Sun's image with binoculars, you will get a good view of any sunspots as well as a fine view of the eclipse." You can also project a reflection of the sun using a hand held mirror against a white, smooth surface. I would recommend checking your local time zone for the event and if you have no device to observe the eclipse directly to stand under a tree during the eclipse and observe the ground as the eclipse will project itself nicely through the interstices of the leaves shadow on the ground. My best to you all over the holiday, but beware of Ketu! - Art .................................................................................................................... From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Dec 24 09:11:13 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 24 Dec 2000 17:11:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 76881 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2000 17:11:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Dec 2000 17:11:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.2) by mta3 with SMTP; 24 Dec 2000 18:12:18 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id a.86.4b6e279 (4239) for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:11:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <86.4b6e279.2777882b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:11:07 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Beware of Ketu! To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 103 From: Drpsionic@aol.com In a message dated 12/24/00 7:29:49 AM Central Standard Time, arthra999@yahoo.com writes: << My best to you all over the holiday, but beware of Ketu! >> No reason to worry. Ketu only attacks Indian astrologers and leaves everyone else alone. Chuck the Heretic From vincebeall@yahoo.com Mon Dec 25 20:39:17 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: vincebeall@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 26 Dec 2000 04:39:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 93360 invoked from network); 26 Dec 2000 04:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Dec 2000 04:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ho.egroups.com) (10.1.2.219) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Dec 2000 04:39:16 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: vincebeall@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.104] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Dec 2000 04:39:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 04:39:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Merry X-mas! Message-ID: <9297dd+hd90@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00a701c06d4c$40e27960$0100007f@captaink> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 504 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 4.54.30.132 From: "Vincent " Merry Christmas to you too! Vincent Beall --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Sisters & Brothers > on the endless path! > > I wish you all a Merry Christmas > and a Happy New Year! > > May light shine in our hearts > and thoughts and the rest > of our world. > > > Brotherly, Frank > > > Visit the German theosophical mailing list: > www.egroups.de/group/theosophie-dialog From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 27 06:25:22 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 14:25:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 4613 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 14:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 14:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 14:25:21 -0000 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA31678 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:36:16 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0356.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.245.101]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA21503; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:25:13 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:20:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 26, 2000 Interesting, and made me think of a deeper puzzle -- from a "finite" mind, -- or is it really "finite ?" "Knowledge" may begin with "manifestation," but, but WISDOM transcends even that vast limitation. What is the UNIVERSAL MIND ? MAHAT ? does it have any kind of "beginning" or possible "ending?" On the other hand, space being infinite and duration being measureless, when was there ever been TOTAL NON-MANIFESTATION? Partial "sleeps" for vast areas and uncountable intelligent beings is understandable, but not for all at any one time, surely ? So the question of the difference between "knowledge" and "wisdom" seems to disappear. Or am I wrong in this ? Dallas ============================ -----Original Message----- From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Steve Stubbs wrote: ====================== It should also be said that this subject becomes less and less difficult to understand as one gets away from the origin of things and into the later phases of solar and planetary development. ====================== This makes me think of a statement by the Adepts, that I read somewhere in the teachings, which says that "all their knowledge begins with manifestation". ============================ DTB To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference for such a statement -- NO? ============================= this makes me think that even though they know everything that is going on, on every plane, during periods of manifestation, they simply do not know WHY the universe works in the orderly way that it does. Now that don't make me correct, but this is how I happen to interpret their statement. What say others? Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- CUT From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Dec 27 06:47:49 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 14:47:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 59728 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001227144748.WOZL10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org> for ; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:47:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4A0113.5047F57E@wisdomworld.org> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:47:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler Dallas, You said this about the item I wrote (which is found below this response): ========================= To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference for such a statement -- NO? ========================= Are you implying that I should not point out an idea that I'm very confident that I read in the teachings, just because I do not remmeber where I read it? Maybe others can help confirm that I did not simply make the idea up (which is also found below). Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] > Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind > > Steve Stubbs wrote: > > ====================== > It should also be said that this subject becomes less > and less difficult to understand as one gets away from > the origin of things and into the later phases of > solar and planetary development. > ====================== > > This makes me think of a statement by the Adepts, that > I read somewhere in the teachings, which says that "all > their knowledge begins with manifestation". > ============================ > DTB To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference > for such a statement -- NO? > ============================= > this makes me think that even though they know everything that is > going on, on every plane, during periods of manifestation, > they simply do not know WHY the universe works in the > orderly way that it does. Now that don't make me correct, > but this is how I happen to interpret their statement. > What say others? > > Compiler > (John DeSantis) > ------- > CUT From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Dec 27 09:30:38 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 17:30:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 53277 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 17:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 17:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 18:31:42 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D120252E498; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:10:28 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D150001D2D4@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:10:26 -0700 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas: Reprint of 5 more documents Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Blavatsky Archives: Reprint of 5 more documents on Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas. Five more items have just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc * Helena P. Blavatsky=20 by Joseph Rhodes Buchanan.=20 [Reprinted from The Phrenological=20 Journal and Life Illustrated=20 (New York) March 1878, pp. 134-137] * Swami Dayanand's Charges=20 by Colonel Henry S. Olcott.=20 [Reprinted from Extra Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Bombay)=20 July, 1882, pp. 1-9.] * Ghost Stories Galore:=20 A Night of Many Wonders at=20 second hand in "the Eighth=20 Avenue Lamasery"=20 by David A. Curtis.=20 [First published in The World=20 (New York), April 21, 1878, p. 9.=20 Reprinted in The Theosophist=20 (Adyar, Madras, India) April 1884,=20 pp. 167-168.] * Mr. W.H. Harrison's Delusions=20 by H.R. Morgan.=20 [Reprinted from the Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Adyar, Madras, India)=20 December 1883, p. 29-31.] * Testimony to Phenomena=20 by H.R. Morgan.=20 [Reprinted from the Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Adyar, Madras, India)=20 December 1883, p. 31.] These articles will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From oom_2001@yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 10:09:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: oom_2001@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 18:09:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 52284 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 18:09:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 18:09:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web5204.mail.yahoo.com) (216.115.106.85) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 19:10:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20001227180901.25145.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.160.235.73] by web5204.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:09:01 PST Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:09:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World Merry X-mas! To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1600028624-977940541=:23651" From: Stanley Zurawski --0-1600028624-977940541=:23651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frank Reitemeyer wrote: I have a website please contact http://home.nett/oom_2001. There you will find a course on mysticism. please give me your opinion Sisters & Brothers on the endless path! I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! May light shine in our hearts and thoughts and the rest of our world. Brotherly, Frank Visit the German theosophical mailing list: www.egroups.de/group/theosophie-dialog --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-1600028624-977940541=:23651 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


  Frank Reitemeyer <ringding@blinx.de> wrote:

I have a website please contact http://home.nett/oom_2001.

There you will find a course on mysticism. please give me your opinion







Sisters & Brothers

on the endless path!

 

I wish you all a Merry Christmas

and a Happy New Year!

 

May light shine in our hearts

and thoughts and the rest

of our world.

 

 

Brotherly, Frank

 

 

Visit the German theosophical mailing list:


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. --0-1600028624-977940541=:23651-- From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Dec 27 10:09:43 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 18:09:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 6199 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 18:09:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 18:09:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 18:09:43 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D120252C00F; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:30:09 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D150001D261@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas: Reprint of 5 more documents Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Blavatsky Archives: Reprint of 5 more documents on Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas. Five more items have just been added to the BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc * Helena P. Blavatsky=20 by Joseph Rhodes Buchanan.=20 [Reprinted from The Phrenological=20 Journal and Life Illustrated=20 (New York) March 1878, pp. 134-137] * Swami Dayanand's Charges=20 by Colonel Henry S. Olcott.=20 [Reprinted from Extra Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Bombay)=20 July, 1882, pp. 1-9.] * Ghost Stories Galore:=20 A Night of Many Wonders at=20 second hand in "the Eighth=20 Avenue Lamasery"=20 by David A. Curtis.=20 [First published in The World=20 (New York), April 21, 1878, p. 9.=20 Reprinted in The Theosophist=20 (Adyar, Madras, India) April 1884,=20 pp. 167-168.] * Mr. W.H. Harrison's Delusions=20 by H.R. Morgan.=20 [Reprinted from the Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Adyar, Madras, India)=20 December 1883, p. 29-31.] * Testimony to Phenomena=20 by H.R. Morgan.=20 [Reprinted from the Supplement=20 to The Theosophist, (Adyar, Madras, India)=20 December 1883, p. 31.] These articles will be found in the "New Items" section. --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Dec 27 10:37:57 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 18:37:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 53406 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 19:39:02 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id KAA12849; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id KAA12844; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:37:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005201c07035$149d88e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: Cc: "Esoteric Science" References: Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:43:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Group, This is concerning Dal's excellent discussion concerning the intuition. I'd like to offer the following: 1. Logoic 2. Monadic 3. Atmic 4. Buddhic 5. Manasic 6. Astral 7. Etheric Physical 1. Beyond beyond all possible thought 2. Beyond all possible thought 3. All possible thought 4. Latent Thought 5. Actual Thought 6. Feeling 7. Behavior 1. Solar Logoic Consciousness 2. Planetary or Group Consciousness 3. Self-Consciousness(of the True Self) 4. Pure Mathematics 5. Scientific Wisdom 6. Idealism and Devotion 7. Behavior(Ceremonial order, ritual and magic) Now look at this possibility! 1. Will(Cause) 2. Love 3. Intellect 4. Love-Intellect 5. Will-Intellect 6. Will-Love 7. Will-Love-Intellect(effect) The buddhic-intuition is at level four and perhaps is the Platonic realm of the source of ideas like in Pure Mathematics. I'm understanding this to mean that Love integrates the Intellect so that the many fields of intellectual activity become the one intellectual activity. Life in it's many mental, emotional and behavioral aspects becomes re-integrated as the one, buddhic-intuitive-contemplative Life on the Buddhic Plane(in the Buddhic State of Consciousness). This is where the integrated Intellect expresses real Love as does the Saint or the equivalent from the other ashrams. It is this Compassion that is expressed through this glorious light of the transpersonal Intellect that gives the Buddha his snazy qualities! This is the Soul expressed through the Mind. This manifests in the body of our feelings through our hearts. We are fools if we get this love of the heart from the intuition confused with the needs of the solar plexus. Here is where the 5th level, Scientific Wisdom, plays it's vital role. The Buddhic Wisdom is so vital to the progress of humanity that the Scientific Wisdom must ever be acutely aware as to what is genuine love, genuine compassion and what is merely genuine need, genuine selfish passion and rationalization. This is why I hesitate. This is why I am cautious. I have been a fool for all these years. What? I'm going to suddenly get wise? Or more likely struggle and flip and flop and fizzle and climb back out of holes, etc. Lord, please bless us with a sense of humor. Ha! I was mediating very early this morning and I was really focusing on TOTAL UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS AND BARE SUBJECTIVITY as UNCONSCIOUSNESS and thinking that the unconscious could be of two main types: that of a mountain and that of our solar logos at the logoic plane. Then I thought that one could go into some wilderness where mankind had never been known and sit ever so quietly and sense the divine unconsciousness all around, totally undisturbed by Man. And then! Bam! It was so funny. Here is this serious scientist sitting ever so quietly observing the divine unconsciousness of Nature, out in the middle of nowhere, and what is actually happening is the entire forest is becoming aware that there is about one hundred and fifty pounds of food just sitting there, unaware and undefended. It was so funny! You had to be there! It would be like this huge animate Brownie(with pecans!) entering some kindergarden class of hungry children merely to sit quietly and observe their natural behavior! Ha! Talk about observer effect! I'm weird. I had the best laugh I've had for years. To see that big yummy brownie sitting there taking notes and all those children getting closer and closer. Love, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-SD-BN" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 19, 2000 > > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. > > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not the > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about > other's. > From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 27 12:12:44 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 27 Dec 2000 20:12:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 30009 invoked from network); 27 Dec 2000 20:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Dec 2000 20:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r14.mail.aol.com) (152.163.225.68) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Dec 2000 21:13:49 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id a.75.e2bd42d (16782) for ; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:12:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <75.e2bd42d.277ba732@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:12:34 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Merry X-mas! To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/27/00 1:11:32 PM, oom_2001@yahoo.com writes: >Frank Reitemeyer wrote: >I have a website please contact http://home.nett/oom_2001. >There you will find a course on mysticism. please give me your opinion It's a real mystery to me. This is the message I got. (LHM /:-)> "Sorry. No Such Address. If you clicked on a link... You may have found one of the millions of links to Web sites that have gone out of business or moved without leaving a forwarding address. It's like having the former address of someone you've lost touch with. Unfortunately, this is very common on the Internet. There's no remedy" From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 27 16:10:58 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 00:10:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 50146 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 00:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 00:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.2) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 00:10:57 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id j.3d.55a332e (16782) for ; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:10:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3d.55a332e.277bdee2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:10:10 EST Subject: Re: [bn-sd] Re: [Fwd: Theos-World Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind] To: sd@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/27/00 3:14:27 PM, DNisk98114@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 12/27/00 11:42:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, >compiler@wisdomworld.org writes: > >><< To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference >> for such a statement -- NO? >> ========================= >> >> Are you implying that I should not point out an idea that I'm very >> confident that I read in the teachings, just because I do not remmeber >> where I read it? Maybe others can help confirm that I did not simply >> make the idea up (which is also found below). >> >> Compiler >> (John DeSantis) >> > >Sometimes it seems we ask a question when making , or trying to make, a >statement.This is pretty "human" wouldn't you say? Yes, whoever you are, but isn't it also "pretty 'human' wouldn't you say?" to take things out of context and misinterpret them entirely? Huh? A good idea doesn't need confirmation of its source... Does it? It stands on its own merits and needs no "authority" to give it credence... Right? So, wouldn't it be wise to think about letting the reader think for himself -- wouldn't you think??? I would. Why not? But then, when one is studying from a book of references, wouldn't it be helpful to give references if you have them -- or not if you don't? Can't we see? Don't we remember? Who are we? Are we joking? Anyway, "Best Wishes for a Happy New Year-Century-Millenium- Cycle-Turn-Term-Tao -- to everyone, everywhere, everywhen." (But, shouldn't we keep an eye on the "Bushmen in the B-world?) I would. Wouldn't you? Didn't HPB say so in the Proem? Or was it the Buddha? Can't remember. Can you? /_ eonardo /-/ermes /|/|ason (anonymous homonymous synonymous) e pluribus unum... Heaven knows? Why don't we? From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 05:56:56 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 13:56:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 68710 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 13:56:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 13:56:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 13:56:55 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0059.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.59]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16903 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:56:53 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:52:28 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3A4A0113.5047F57E@wisdomworld.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dear John: If you do have, and can give a reference (I also know the statement you quoted, but could not locate it) why not give the source? It helps others save some time verifying. Dal ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 6:48 AM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Dallas, You said this about the item I wrote (which is found below this response): ========================= To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference for such a statement -- NO? ========================= Are you implying that I should not point out an idea that I'm very confident that I read in the teachings, just because I do not remmeber where I read it? Maybe others can help confirm that I did not simply make the idea up (which is also found below). Compiler (John DeSantis) ------- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] > Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind > > Steve Stubbs wrote: > > ====================== > It should also be said that this subject becomes less > and less difficult to understand as one gets away from > the origin of things and into the later phases of > solar and planetary development. > ====================== > > This makes me think of a statement by the Adepts, that > I read somewhere in the teachings, which says that "all > their knowledge begins with manifestation". > ============================ > DTB To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference > for such a statement -- NO? > ============================= > this makes me think that even though they know everything that is > going on, on every plane, during periods of manifestation, > they simply do not know WHY the universe works in the > orderly way that it does. Now that don't make me correct, > but this is how I happen to interpret their statement. > What say others? > > Compiler > (John DeSantis) > ------- > CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 05:57:34 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 13:57:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 62902 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 13:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 13:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 13:57:34 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0059.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.59]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA18990; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:57:18 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:52:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005201c07035$149d88e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 27, 2000 Dear Gene: Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments below in the body of yours? Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the other principles at their level. So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration to dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts and definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to have few words in English to be exact with. Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic and similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own faculties, but not identical. Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether Universal or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware of them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." Let me try below to add what I understand of your comments. Best wishes, Dallas ========================================= -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:44 AM Cc: Esoteric Science Subject: INTUITION What is it? Dear ----- This is concerning Dal's excellent discussion concerning the intuition. I'd like to offer the following: ================================= DTB LET ME ADD SOME COMMENTS AS WE GO DOWN THE LIST = = = = = = = = = = 1. Logoic DTB COMMENCING MANIFESTATION in 3 aspects: 1 a continuation of past manifestation -- Karmic links and fields 2 projecting a plan whereby in a fresh manifestation the old patterns would have representative positions and conditions that enabled each component of the new to awaken and revive with the old Karma in place, an unchanged continuity. 3 Activating in the present such positions and conditions. 2. Monadic DTB THIS IS THE RETURN OF THE ETERNAL AND IMMORTAL SPIRIT/MATTER COMBINATIONS -- and this is in conjunction with 1, above. Monads are truly immortals. 3. Atmic DTB THIS REPRESENTS THE ABSOLUTELY PURE AND UTTERLY BALANCED, JUST AND WISE CONDITION WHICH is one extreme of the MONAD.. (My view.) 4. Buddhic DTB REPRESENTS THE SUMMATION AS WELL AS THE DETAILED MEMORIES OF ALL EXPERIENCES of every MONAD as well as of the WHOLE. It is the "TRUTH" and "FACT" base from which Manas (Higher Mind) is able to draw summations of the LAWS in Nature. 5. Manasic DTB UNIVERSAL MIND (or MAHAT) REPRESENTS THE ACTIVE AGENT WHICH TRANSFERS the laws and plans of the SPIRITUAL PORTION of the BALANCED EQUATION to the denser planes where the MONADS, engaged in their evolution there, need a guide, a goal, and the assurance of there being a logical and complete continuity to their existence and the evolutionary stream. It is the plane of active consciousness, of balance, of reasoning, memory, and all the mental faculties.. 5A [ Kamic ] DTB THIS OUGHT TO BE INCLUDED HERE as it forms with Manas the necessary linkage between the higher and the lower faculties and principles. The Kamic Principle in man is the one that is called desire and passion.. It is separate from the mental faculties, processes and tools. 5B [Pranic ] DTB THIS IS THE PRINCIPLE OF LIFE AS A VIVIFYING CURRENT IN ALL THINGS. It has 2 aspects: Life-giving, and death-giving to any form. It is intimately related to KARMA, and works through Kama (desire & Passions) , and the Astral or (electro-magnetic) model form. Then monads that we call the "skandhas" impregnated with the motives of our thoughts, feelings and acts form part of either of these two groups. [ In the S.D. you will find in Vol. II, p.176 the passage "Desire first arose in IT, that was the primal germ of mind, and which sages seeking with their intellect discovered to be the link between BEING and non-being." Some of the comments on this old verse are also to be found in S.D. Vol. II pp. 578-9. Quite interesting. ] 6. Astral DTB THIS IS THE ELECTRO-MAGNETIC aspect of Nature and it forms on the plane of FORCES and POWERS, the basis on which the physical atoms and molecules adhere in the patterns set by KARMA and by PRANA (Vitality) according to the KARMA of the MONAD which uses them, and to which they look for the experiences that they can include in their memories and which will either ennoble or debase them -- depending on the motive of the MONAD which is at the forefront (or center).. 7. . Etheric Physical DTB THIS APPEARS TO BE THE ASTRAL BODY before described. 9. Physical body DTB IN WHICH WE LIVE AND EXPERIENCE NOW. ======== 1. Beyond, beyond all possible thought ABSOLUTENESS -- Finite minds are unable to describe. 2. Beyond all possible thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS and imperishable AKASIC TABLETS 3. All possible thought DTB SAME Recorded in the Akashic tablets imperishably 4. Latent Thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS 5. Actual Thought DTB relates to ABSOLUTE but particularized as to evolving being. Gives the power of "creation" to this component of the WHOLE. Base of FREE-WILL and hence of the modifications of Karma and of future experience of the gradually progressing Ego-MONAD.. 6. Feeling DTB Emotion and desire originates in one who FEELS INCOMPLETE, and desires some kind of "possession," so as to feel more perfect or more "complete." . Usually chooses some perishable and short-lived object. May assume that the feelings he/she generates are reciprocated. Occasionally when rejected will act as a tyrant to subjugate (AND FORCE) the object(s) of his desire to comply to his/her wishes. Source of conflicts of all kinds, some involving hosts of other beings -- wars, conquests, political and theological (by priest-crafts of all religions without any exceptions) attempts at dominance and subjugation. 7. Behavior DTB Self determined. Willful acts, thoughts and feelings. Based on Lower Mind (Kama-Manas). Ephemeral and constantly changing. Held in check and control only by the HIGHER MANAS ( Buddhi-Manas). 1. Solar Logoic Consciousness DTB A DUTY TOWARDS THE SOLAR SYSTEM, PLANETS, AND THE RELATIONS WITH OTHER SOLAR SYSTEMS. A MONAD which has achieved one of the highest responsibilities ( A "Planetary Spirit," Dhyan-Chohan, Buddha, Manu, etc...) through self-sacrifice (meaning every thought, desire and act is directed towards the service of others). It would always be perfectly in tune with UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS. and ABSOLUTE KARMA. OF THE WHOLE HOST of beings involved in the common fields of evolution in some system. We, our MONAD, and the conjoined Principles that give us an entitative self feeling and self-knowledge, These represent analogetically this kind of Central CONSCIOUSNESS, to the billions of Monads having lesser experience that cluster around US and give us viability on the various planes we (as MONADS) are supposed to be responsible for. Hence, of course, the extreme responsibility we have: to conduct our lives as virtuously as possible. This is one of the crucial points in evolution for us. Our MONAD is on a balance point. Will IT/we employ the forces and powers we have at present acquired and the mental vision we have so far developed, to assist or to retard UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION,? This could be said to start with ourselves and end, finally, with worlds and systems of worlds. 2. Planetary or Group Consciousness DTB Seems to represent the totality of the consciousness of all the MONADS of and in a Planet that is evolving. 3. Self-Consciousness DTB (of the True Self) SPIRITUAL IDENTITY AS SHARED WITH ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL BEINGS. ATTUNED TO THE INFINITE PURPOSE OF ALL BEINGS.. All virtues would be concentrated in this awareness and absolutely nothing that would be disruptive of divine and ultimate purpose could be present. 4. Pure Mathematics DTB MANAS, LOGIC, RATIOCINATION without any motive of self-interest. Yet, at their base there is always a motive of some kind, this has to be discovered each one for themselves. It is part of the tests (devised by great nature) to discover if the evolution of any MONAD (and the monads around it which form its "personality") have, indeed, reached the point of ultimate harmlessness, compassion and generosity due to itself (as a member of the System) and, to all else that lives and deserves our consideration. I think this is a most important point. 5. Scientific Wisdom DTB I would say: USE OF THE MIND TO REDISCOVER (and prove) THE RULES AND LAWS OF NATURE. NATURE ALREADY CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL LAWS. WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS BUT LOOK FOR THE PHENOMENA OF STRESS TO DEMONSTRATE TO US THE EXISTENCE OF THE BALANCING POWERS THAT REACT AGAINST UNUSUAL AND UNNECESSARY CONSTRAINT. Our sense of justice, impartiality, universality and above all FREE-WILL (see S.D. II 484 just below the middle of the page). 6. Idealism and Devotion DTB AN EXPRESSION OF PERFECTION IN EXISTENCE. Pure Spirit. The expression of the highest level of the Desire and Feeling nature (S.D. II 176) A universalizing of all and every aspect of our being, and "character." 7. Behavior(Ceremonial order, ritual and magic) DTB This appears to be a CONTRIVED ATTEMPT TO IMITATE NATURE IN PART. Usually includes rites, ceremonies, worship and outward conformity to social disciplines administered by theologians or politicians. These become (or are made into) the norms of a society or a culture. They have no LASTING value (except to those who desire to be noticed as 'outwardly' the "leaders" of a culture, society, town, region, etc...They are shams and pretense in such cases. [ The REAL NOBILITY OF CHARACTER is reflected in the constant small and generous acts and assistance that such individuals, advanced in real evolutionary progress, render to others, with no desire for any "return." ] Unless they actually conform to some true and real spiritual basis all outward advertising and "show" is quite useless and misleading to those who might be lead to depend on the honesty and sincerity of such persons. This is caused by an imbalance in Kama and a misleading of the Lower Manas by such a process. l. (Cause) DTB FROM WHERE? By whom? For what purpose? [Lower or Higher Manasic -- selfish or selfless ?] 2. Love DTB Of whom and by whom? Purpose? [Usually Lower Manasic] When directed for the benefit of the whole world it is impersonal, universal, generous and charitable -- and of general and lasting benefit to all beings including the one specifically approached. 3. Intellect DTB What aspect of the MIND exercises this or makes it available? In Theosophy it is usually (unless modified by some qualitative expression) considered to be the Lower Manas in action, and in conjunction with, and for the benefit of, Kama (Desires and Passions.) These being lower-self-centered are usually destructive and disruptive to harmony and to the balanced life. But this can be changed when we recognize the petty limits of such goals -- then we can widen out and universalize and impersonalize it. 4. Love-Intellect DTB Lower Mans in operation with a specific object to be attained. [Selfish and Kama-Manasic ] Is this, can this be widened to include other beings and eventually the whole world and universe ? Changes the motive aspect. 5. Will-Intellect DTB Power to employ the correlation of information with a selfish objective. (Lower Manasic -- Kama-Manasic - selfish abuse of creative power) This also can be universalized and impersonalized for the benefit of ALL. Changes the motive aspect. 6. Will-Love DTB Same answer. 7. Will-Love-Intellect(effect) DTB Same answer. Motive when chosen makes the difference. ===================================== Gene The Buddhic-intuition is at level four and perhaps is the Platonic realm of the source of ideas like in Pure Mathematics. I'm understanding this to mean that Love integrates the Intellect so that the many fields of intellectual activity become the one intellectual activity. ====================================== DTB UNIVERSAL LOVE does this as it impersonalizes and alters motive -- it is generous and harmless. MOTIVE IS THE IMPORTANT TESTING POINT AT THIS STAGE OF OUR EVOLUTION. ==================================== Gene Life in it's many mental, emotional and behavioral aspects becomes re-integrated as the one, Buddhic-intuitive-contemplative Life on the Buddhic Plane(in the Buddhic State of Consciousness). ===================================== DTB The Buddhi-Manasic power of CONSCIOUSNESS is by definition universal and impersonal. It is the normal contemplative state of any WISE man. (A mind that has ceased to be lower-self centered.) At present most of us do this with effort and we have trouble disentangling the BUDDHIC conditions of IDEAL NATURE from our distorted and selfishly centered general ways of life and thought -- usually centered on some personal DESIRE . Meditation and a consideration of POTENTIAL EFFECTS of our choices are tools we can use to effect to self-guidance .towards a higher plane of living. As we with greater ease leave the DESIRE-DOMINATED average level of living, we may gradually assume and put into effect the BUDDHIC way of living for the good of all, as the Buddha might say, or as Jesus says in some of the injunctions given in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT (which are so little applied by the average "Christian.") ========================================== Gene This is where the integrated Intellect expresses real Love as does the Saint or the equivalent from the other ashrams. It is this Compassion that is expressed through this glorious light of the transpersonal Intellect that gives the Buddha his snazzy qualities! This is the Soul expressed through the Mind. -------------------------------------------------------- DTB I would not distinguish the "Soul" from the "Mind." The Mental faculty has the 3 levels already written about: 1, Buddhis, 2. Pure thought uninfluenced by base motives, and 3. Base thought which is selfish, personal, and Lower-Self-centered. In all cases the Mind/Soul THINKS, reasons, uses logic. The basis for such a power determined by the motive either elevates the process or degrades it (and retards the whole of evolution). ================================== Gene This manifests in the body of our feelings through our hearts. We are fools if we get this love of the heart from the intuition confused with the needs of the solar plexus. ======================================= DTB Although the Heart qualities are definitely different from those of the Desire nature (centered --some say -- in the "solar plexus") I do not think it is wise to locate or characterize THOUGHT (or desire-feelings) with any particular part of the body or its organs. I say this, because I find that Theosophy conceives THOUGHT is CONSCIOUSNESS operating on a different plane. The ancients held that there were particular organs in the human body that were more influenced by the actions on different planes and principles. But, as far as I know the original teachers never had the opinion that the physical organ originated or even greatly influenced the faculty or principle. If the physical organ's influence were truly powerful, we could not even consider such a subject, or seek to 'escape' from such influences. The bodily organs and parts, though mentioned in many systems, including the Hindu and the Chinese, etc... are only SYMBOLIC. As far as I know, the nature of our motives, feelings, thoughts, etc... are independent of the physical centers (chakras, etc...?) as defined in other systems -- of which the physical shell alone remains described to us in ancient literature. It is rare to find KEYS for the esoteric meanings concealed in those old texts -- which if occult and esoteric cannot be read with the "EYE-DOCTRINE" alone. ( The eye-doctrine is limited to the translating of words, and the superficial acceptance of the meanings as written -- or as presumed to be meant by the modern translator). The occult and esoteric meanings are carefully concealed within the words, phrases and qualities (or events) described. ( The S.D. and ISIS give many instances of this for our information.) H.P.B. has made some of the ancient Keys available to us so that ancient symbology can be unraveled by us as we learn how the modern representations and interpretations of those texts have been distorted by either interested or ignorant translators. This is to be guarded against I think. ===================================== Gene Here is where the 5th level, Scientific Wisdom, plays it's vital role. The Buddhic Wisdom is so vital to the progress of humanity that the Scientific Wisdom must ever be acutely aware as to what is genuine love, genuine compassion and what is merely genuine need, genuine selfish passion and rationalization. This is why I hesitate. This is why I am cautious. I have been a fool for all these years. What? I'm going to suddenly get wise? Or more likely struggle and flip and flop and fizzle and climb back out of holes, etc. Lord, please bless us with a sense of humor. ==================== DTB I fully agree. As we age in any one personality (I am convinced of reincarnation) we begin to get a perspective as to what is really valuable, because it is able to transcend opinion or dogma by age and many experiences. Imperceptibly we are constantly evaluating the STATEMENTS we were taught -- with those actualities of our experience. This inner recorder, witness, observer is again an proof of the immutable and eternal HIGHER SELF in each of us, no matter what name we may give to it. Yes a sense of humor is absolutely essential -- how else would we be able to laugh at our blunders and then avoid them in the future? The ambitious authority types seem to lack this sense. ================================ Gene: Ha! I was mediating very early this morning and I was really focusing on TOTAL UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS AND BARE SUBJECTIVITY as UNCONSCIOUSNESS and thinking that the unconscious could be of two main types: that of a mountain and that of our solar logos at the logoic plane. Then I thought that one could go into some wilderness where mankind had never been known and sit ever so quietly and sense the divine unconsciousness all around, totally undisturbed by Man. And then! Bam! It was so funny. Here is this serious scientist sitting ever so quietly observing the divine unconsciousness of Nature, out in the middle of nowhere, and what is actually happening is the entire forest is becoming aware that there is about one hundred and fifty pounds of food just sitting there, unaware and undefended. It was so funny! You had to be there! It would be like this huge animate Brownie(with pecans!) entering some kindergarden class of hungry children merely to sit quietly and observe their natural behavior! Ha! Talk about observer effect! I'm weird. I had the best laugh I've had for years. To see that big yummy brownie sitting there taking notes and all those children getting closer and closer. ====================================== DTB I have difficulty equating some of the expressions of modern psychology with their Theosophical equivalents. They do not always seem to mean the same thing. Look at the words UNCONSCIOUS and UNCONSCIOUSNESS. Is the implication there that below human CONSCIOUSNESS there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS ? I would tend to disagree, as to my mind the purposiveness of all beings (atoms, sub-atoms, cells, molecules, and various other structures in just the small limits of the physical plane and it is a type of 'matter-by-obstruction' (the WHIRLING FAN example) I would say we need a wider spectrum of definition. Example: What are the sub-atomic particles? Forces and Fields with a purpose. They obey fundamental laws IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT SET BY NATURE. Nature being ever-present, those LAWS are being looked into by us (same of the mega-side - in astronomy. What are 50 billion or 5,000 billion light-years of distance to us, who are pigmy-intelligences and very small minds indeed on our insignificant EARTH ? Yet these same MINDS of ours are able to embrace the phenomena and speculate on possibles and potentials in other places where we have no present instrumentation to penetrate -- we see only the movement of surfaces and the WHY is still unclear. We do however have the wisdom to say that LAW must be operating everywhere and we can trust it because of it persistence and regularity of repetition.. Well this has been most interesting. Thank you. Wonder if what I write is helpful. Best wishes for 2001, et seq -- and many thanks for yours which I reciprocate. Dallas ---------------------------------------------------------------- Love, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-SD-BN" Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 19, 2000 > > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. > > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not the > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about > other's. > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Dec 28 06:21:08 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 14:21:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 41062 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 14:21:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 14:21:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 14:21:06 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001228142106.CNBZ10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org>; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 06:21:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4B4C51.2DEBA55@wisdomworld.org> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:21:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com, sd@blavatsky.net Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler Dear Dallas, I don't have the slightest idea where I read the idea in the Teachings, that is why I said that "I read somewhere in the teachings", when I first spoke of the subject (found below). This was my way of saying that I could offer no reference. I thought I was being clear, but I will have to do better next time. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Dear John: > > If you do have, and can give a reference (I also know the > statement you quoted, but could not locate it) why not give the > source? It helps others save some time verifying. > > Dal > > ====================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 6:48 AM > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, > Intuition and Mind > > Dallas, > > You said this about the item I wrote (which is found below this > response): > > ========================= > To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a reference > for such a statement -- NO? > ========================= > > Are you implying that I should not point out an idea that I'm > very > confident that I read in the teachings, just because I do not > remmeber > where I read it? Maybe others can help confirm that I did not > simply > make the idea up (which is also found below). > > Compiler > (John DeSantis) > ------- > > dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Compiler [mailto:compiler@wisdomworld.org] > > Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:27 AM > > Subject: Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind > > > > Steve Stubbs wrote: > > > > ====================== > > It should also be said that this subject becomes less > > and less difficult to understand as one gets away from > > the origin of things and into the later phases of > > solar and planetary development. > > ====================== > > > > This makes me think of a statement by the Adepts, that > > I read somewhere in the teachings, which says that "all > > their knowledge begins with manifestation". > > ============================ > > DTB To be fair, I think one ought to be able to give a > reference > > for such a statement -- NO? > > ============================= > > this makes me think that even though they know everything that > is > > going on, on every plane, during periods of manifestation, > > they simply do not know WHY the universe works in the > > orderly way that it does. Now that don't make me correct, > > but this is how I happen to interpret their statement. > > What say others? > > > > Compiler > > (John DeSantis) > > ------- > > CUT From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Dec 28 08:19:21 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 16:19:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 96648 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 16:19:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 16:19:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 16:19:16 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id IAA00981 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id IAA00967 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:19:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01c070ea$e0e55d00$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:26:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Dallas, Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be food for thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be consumed, digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be able to follow your reasoning. I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are expanding and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. Also you are associating from planes into the seven principles which are numbered differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow you as I'm familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and how Subba Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his numbering system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to the planes and pondering their logical derivation: Will causes love and intelligent activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and each of the seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the Will or the Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect). I might point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words to describe the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be clarifying: 1. 2. Absoluteness 3. Absolute 4. Buddhic(latent thought) 5. Manasic(actual thought) 6. Astral(emotions) 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper three planes using my abstract mind as best I can. I'm trying to understand these as best I can before again cycling downward through the four "lower" permutations of the these states of consciousness. I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the abstract mind and trying to receive through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual thought, of the buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of the Atmic state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for us, perfected humanity. All of your comments are right-on and very well reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance with them as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to understand the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond all possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our solar logos. To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect and one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life itself. To more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our father's will is a trip! Companions, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 27, 2000 > > Dear Gene: > > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments below > in the body of yours? > > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the > other principles at their level. > > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration to > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts and > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to > have few words in English to be exact with. > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic and > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own > faculties, but not identical. > > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether Universal > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware of > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." > > Let me try below to add what I understand of your comments. > > Best wishes, > Dallas > > > ========================================= > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:44 AM > Cc: Esoteric Science > Subject: INTUITION What is it? > > > Dear ----- > > This is concerning Dal's excellent discussion concerning the > intuition. > > I'd like to offer the following: > > ================================= > > DTB LET ME ADD SOME COMMENTS AS WE GO DOWN THE LIST > > = = = = = = = = = = > > > 1. Logoic DTB COMMENCING MANIFESTATION in 3 > aspects: > > 1 a continuation of past manifestation -- Karmic links > and fields > > 2 projecting a plan whereby in a fresh manifestation the > old patterns would have representative positions and conditions > that enabled each component of the new to awaken and revive with > the old Karma in place, an unchanged continuity. > > 3 Activating in the present such positions and > conditions. > > > 2. Monadic DTB THIS IS THE RETURN OF THE ETERNAL AND > IMMORTAL SPIRIT/MATTER COMBINATIONS -- and this is in conjunction > with 1, above. Monads are truly immortals. > > > 3. Atmic DTB THIS REPRESENTS THE ABSOLUTELY PURE AND > UTTERLY BALANCED, JUST AND WISE CONDITION WHICH is one extreme > of the MONAD.. (My view.) > > > 4. Buddhic DTB REPRESENTS THE SUMMATION AS WELL AS THE > DETAILED MEMORIES OF ALL EXPERIENCES of every MONAD as well as > of the WHOLE. It is the "TRUTH" and "FACT" base from which Manas > (Higher Mind) is able to draw summations of the LAWS in Nature. > > > 5. Manasic DTB UNIVERSAL MIND (or MAHAT) REPRESENTS THE > ACTIVE AGENT WHICH TRANSFERS the laws and plans of the SPIRITUAL > PORTION of the BALANCED EQUATION to the denser planes where the > MONADS, engaged in their evolution there, need a guide, a goal, > and the assurance of there being a logical and complete > continuity to their existence and the evolutionary stream. It is > the plane of active consciousness, of balance, of reasoning, > memory, and all the mental faculties.. > > > 5A [ Kamic ] DTB THIS OUGHT TO BE INCLUDED HERE as it forms > with Manas the necessary linkage between the higher and the lower > faculties and principles. The Kamic Principle in man is the one > that is called desire and passion.. It is separate from the > mental faculties, processes and tools. > > > 5B [Pranic ] DTB THIS IS THE PRINCIPLE OF LIFE AS A VIVIFYING > CURRENT IN ALL THINGS. It has 2 aspects: Life-giving, and > death-giving to any form. It is intimately related to KARMA, and > works through Kama (desire & Passions) , and the Astral or > (electro-magnetic) model form. Then monads that we call the > "skandhas" impregnated with the motives of our thoughts, feelings > and acts form part of either of these two groups. > > [ In the S.D. you will find in Vol. II, p.176 the passage "Desire > first arose in IT, that was the primal germ of mind, and which > sages seeking with their intellect discovered to be the link > between BEING and non-being." Some of the comments on this old > verse are also to be found in S.D. Vol. II pp. 578-9. Quite > interesting. ] > > > 6. Astral DTB THIS IS THE ELECTRO-MAGNETIC > aspect of Nature and it forms on the plane of FORCES and POWERS, > the basis on which the physical atoms and molecules adhere in > the patterns set by KARMA and by PRANA (Vitality) according to > the KARMA of the MONAD which uses them, and to which they look > for the experiences that they can include in their memories and > which will either ennoble or debase them -- depending on the > motive of the MONAD which is at the forefront (or center).. > > 7. . Etheric Physical DTB THIS APPEARS TO BE THE ASTRAL > BODY before described. > > > 9. Physical body DTB IN WHICH WE LIVE AND > EXPERIENCE NOW. > > > ======== > > > 1. Beyond, beyond all possible thought ABSOLUTENESS -- Finite > minds are unable to describe. > > > 2. Beyond all possible thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS and > imperishable AKASIC TABLETS > > > 3. All possible thought DTB SAME Recorded in the > Akashic tablets imperishably > > > 4. Latent Thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS > > > 5. Actual Thought DTB relates to ABSOLUTE but > particularized as to evolving being. Gives the power of > "creation" to this component of the WHOLE. Base of FREE-WILL > and hence of the modifications of Karma and of future experience > of the gradually progressing Ego-MONAD.. > > > 6. Feeling DTB Emotion and desire originates in > one who FEELS INCOMPLETE, and desires some kind of "possession," > so as to feel more perfect or more "complete." . Usually chooses > some perishable and short-lived object. May assume that the > feelings he/she generates are reciprocated. Occasionally when > rejected will act as a tyrant to subjugate (AND FORCE) the > object(s) of his desire to comply to his/her wishes. Source of > conflicts of all kinds, some involving hosts of other beings -- > wars, conquests, political and theological (by priest-crafts of > all religions without any exceptions) attempts at dominance and > subjugation. > > > 7. Behavior DTB Self determined. Willful acts, > thoughts and feelings. Based on Lower Mind (Kama-Manas). > Ephemeral and constantly changing. Held in check and control > only by the HIGHER MANAS ( Buddhi-Manas). > > > 1. Solar Logoic Consciousness DTB A DUTY TOWARDS > THE SOLAR SYSTEM, PLANETS, AND THE RELATIONS WITH OTHER SOLAR > SYSTEMS. A MONAD which has achieved one of the highest > responsibilities ( A "Planetary Spirit," Dhyan-Chohan, Buddha, > Manu, etc...) through self-sacrifice (meaning every thought, > desire and act is directed towards the service of others). It > would always be perfectly in tune with UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS. > and ABSOLUTE KARMA. OF THE WHOLE HOST of beings involved in the > common fields of evolution in some system. > We, our MONAD, and the conjoined Principles that give us an > entitative self feeling and self-knowledge, These represent > analogetically this kind of Central CONSCIOUSNESS, to the > billions of Monads having lesser experience that cluster around > US and give us viability on the various planes we (as MONADS) are > supposed to be responsible for. > > Hence, of course, the extreme responsibility we have: to conduct > our lives as virtuously as possible. This is one of the crucial > points in evolution for us. Our MONAD is on a balance point. > Will IT/we employ the forces and powers we have at present > acquired and the mental vision we have so far developed, to > assist or to retard UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION,? This could be said to > start with ourselves and end, finally, with worlds and systems of > worlds. > > > 2. Planetary or Group Consciousness DTB Seems to > represent the totality of the consciousness of all the MONADS of > and in a Planet that is evolving. > > > 3. Self-Consciousness DTB (of the True Self) SPIRITUAL > IDENTITY AS SHARED WITH ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL BEINGS. ATTUNED TO > THE INFINITE PURPOSE OF ALL BEINGS.. All virtues would be > concentrated in this awareness and absolutely nothing that would > be disruptive of divine and ultimate purpose could be present. > > > 4. Pure Mathematics DTB MANAS, LOGIC, RATIOCINATION > without any motive of self-interest. Yet, at their base there is > always a motive of some kind, this has to be discovered each one > for themselves. It is part of the tests (devised by great > nature) to discover if the evolution of any MONAD (and the monads > around it which form its "personality") have, indeed, reached > the point of ultimate harmlessness, compassion and generosity due > to itself (as a member of the System) and, to all else that lives > and deserves our consideration. I think this is a most important > point. > > > 5. Scientific Wisdom DTB I would say: USE OF THE MIND TO > REDISCOVER (and prove) THE RULES AND LAWS OF NATURE. > > NATURE ALREADY CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL LAWS. > > WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS BUT LOOK FOR THE PHENOMENA OF STRESS TO > DEMONSTRATE TO US THE EXISTENCE OF THE BALANCING POWERS THAT > REACT AGAINST UNUSUAL AND UNNECESSARY CONSTRAINT. Our sense of > justice, impartiality, universality and above all FREE-WILL (see > S.D. II 484 just below the middle of the page). > > > 6. Idealism and Devotion DTB AN EXPRESSION OF > PERFECTION IN EXISTENCE. Pure Spirit. The expression of the > highest level of the Desire and Feeling nature (S.D. II 176) A > universalizing of all and every aspect of our being, and > "character." > > > 7. Behavior(Ceremonial order, ritual and magic) DTB > This appears to be a CONTRIVED ATTEMPT TO IMITATE NATURE IN PART. > Usually includes rites, ceremonies, worship and outward > conformity to social disciplines administered by theologians or > politicians. These become (or are made into) the norms of a > society or a culture. > > They have no LASTING value (except to those who desire to be > noticed as 'outwardly' the "leaders" of a culture, society, town, > region, etc...They are shams and pretense in such cases. > > [ The REAL NOBILITY OF CHARACTER is reflected in the constant > small and generous acts and assistance that such individuals, > advanced in real evolutionary progress, render to others, with no > desire for any "return." ] Unless they actually conform to some > true and real spiritual basis all outward advertising and "show" > is quite useless and misleading to those who might be lead to > depend on the honesty and sincerity of such persons. This is > caused by an imbalance in Kama and a misleading of the Lower > Manas by such a process. > > > l. (Cause) DTB FROM WHERE? By whom? For what purpose? > [Lower or Higher Manasic -- selfish or selfless ?] > > > 2. Love DTB Of whom and by whom? Purpose? [Usually > Lower Manasic] When directed for the benefit of the whole world > it is impersonal, universal, generous and charitable -- and of > general and lasting benefit to all beings including the one > specifically approached. > > > 3. Intellect DTB What aspect of the MIND exercises this or > makes it available? In Theosophy it is usually (unless modified > by some qualitative expression) considered to be the Lower Manas > in action, and in conjunction with, and for the benefit of, Kama > (Desires and Passions.) These being lower-self-centered are > usually destructive and disruptive to harmony and to the balanced > life. But this can be changed when we recognize the petty limits > of such goals -- then we can widen out and universalize and > impersonalize it. > > > 4. Love-Intellect DTB Lower Mans in operation with > a specific object to be attained. [Selfish and Kama-Manasic ] Is > this, can this be widened to include other beings and eventually > the whole world and universe ? Changes the motive aspect. > > > 5. Will-Intellect DTB Power to employ the > correlation of information with a selfish objective. (Lower > Manasic -- Kama-Manasic - selfish abuse of creative power) > This also can be universalized and impersonalized for the benefit > of ALL. Changes the motive aspect. > > > 6. Will-Love DTB Same answer. > > > 7. Will-Love-Intellect(effect) DTB Same answer. Motive when > chosen makes the difference. > > > ===================================== > Gene > > The Buddhic-intuition is at level four and perhaps is the > Platonic realm of > the source of ideas like in Pure Mathematics. I'm understanding > this to > mean that Love integrates the Intellect so that the many fields > of > intellectual activity become the one intellectual activity. > ====================================== > DTB UNIVERSAL LOVE does this as it impersonalizes and alters > motive -- it is generous and harmless. MOTIVE IS THE IMPORTANT > TESTING POINT AT THIS STAGE OF OUR EVOLUTION. > ==================================== > Gene > Life in it's many mental, emotional and behavioral aspects > becomes re-integrated as the > one, Buddhic-intuitive-contemplative Life on the Buddhic Plane(in > the Buddhic State of Consciousness). > ===================================== > DTB The Buddhi-Manasic power of CONSCIOUSNESS is by definition > universal and impersonal. It is the normal contemplative state > of any WISE man. (A mind that has ceased to be lower-self > centered.) > At present most of us do this with effort and we have trouble > disentangling the BUDDHIC conditions of IDEAL NATURE from our > distorted and selfishly centered general ways of life and > thought -- usually centered on some personal DESIRE . Meditation > and a consideration of POTENTIAL EFFECTS of our choices are tools > we can use to effect to self-guidance .towards a higher plane of > living. As we with greater ease leave the DESIRE-DOMINATED > average level of living, we may gradually assume and put into > effect the BUDDHIC way of living for the good of all, as the > Buddha might say, or as Jesus says in some of the injunctions > given in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT (which are so little applied by > the average "Christian.") > ========================================== > Gene > This is where the integrated Intellect expresses real Love as > does the Saint or the equivalent from the other ashrams. It is > this Compassion that is expressed through this glorious light of > the transpersonal Intellect that gives the Buddha his snazzy > qualities! This is the Soul expressed through the Mind. > -------------------------------------------------------- > DTB I would not distinguish the "Soul" from the "Mind." The > Mental faculty has the 3 levels already written about: 1, > Buddhis, 2. Pure thought uninfluenced by base motives, and 3. > Base thought which is selfish, personal, and > Lower-Self-centered. In all cases the Mind/Soul THINKS, reasons, > uses logic. The basis for such a power determined by the motive > either elevates the process or degrades it (and retards the whole > of evolution). > ================================== > > Gene > > This manifests in the body of our feelings through our hearts. > We are > fools if we get this love of the heart from the intuition > confused with the > needs of the solar plexus. > ======================================= > DTB Although the Heart qualities are definitely different from > those of the Desire nature (centered --some say -- in the "solar > plexus") I do not think it is wise to locate or characterize > THOUGHT (or desire-feelings) with any particular part of the body > or its organs. I say this, because I find that Theosophy > conceives THOUGHT is CONSCIOUSNESS operating on a different > plane. The ancients held that there were particular organs in > the human body that were more influenced by the actions on > different planes and principles. But, as far as I know the > original teachers never had the opinion that the physical organ > originated or even greatly influenced the faculty or principle. > If the physical organ's influence were truly powerful, we could > not even consider such a subject, or seek to 'escape' from such > influences. > The bodily organs and parts, though mentioned in many systems, > including the Hindu and the Chinese, etc... are only SYMBOLIC. > As far as I know, the nature of our motives, feelings, thoughts, > etc... are independent of the physical centers (chakras, etc...?) > as defined in other systems -- of which the physical shell alone > remains described to us in ancient literature. > It is rare to find KEYS for the esoteric meanings concealed in > those old texts -- which if occult and esoteric cannot be read > with the "EYE-DOCTRINE" alone. ( The eye-doctrine is limited to > the translating of words, and the superficial acceptance of the > meanings as written -- or as presumed to be meant by the modern > translator). > The occult and esoteric meanings are carefully concealed within > the words, phrases and qualities (or events) described. ( The > S.D. and ISIS give many instances of this for our information.) > H.P.B. has made some of the ancient Keys available to us so that > ancient symbology can be unraveled by us as we learn how the > modern representations and interpretations of those texts have > been distorted by either interested or ignorant translators. > This is to be guarded against I think. > ===================================== > Gene > Here is where the 5th level, Scientific Wisdom, > plays it's vital role. The Buddhic Wisdom is so vital to the > progress of > humanity that the Scientific Wisdom must ever be acutely aware as > to what is > genuine love, genuine compassion and what is merely genuine need, > genuine > selfish passion and rationalization. This is why I hesitate. > This is why I > am cautious. I have been a fool for all these years. What? I'm > going to > suddenly get wise? Or more likely struggle and flip and flop and > fizzle and > climb back out of holes, etc. Lord, please bless us with a sense > of humor. > ==================== > DTB I fully agree. As we age in any one personality (I am > convinced of reincarnation) we begin to get a perspective as to > what is really valuable, because it is able to transcend opinion > or dogma by age and many experiences. Imperceptibly we are > constantly evaluating the STATEMENTS we were taught -- with those > actualities of our experience. This inner recorder, witness, > observer is again an proof of the immutable and eternal HIGHER > SELF in each of us, no matter what name we may give to it. > Yes a sense of humor is absolutely essential -- how else would we > be able to laugh at our blunders and then avoid them in the > future? The ambitious authority types seem to lack this sense. > > ================================ > Gene: > > Ha! I was mediating very early this morning and I was really > focusing on > TOTAL UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS AND BARE SUBJECTIVITY as > UNCONSCIOUSNESS > and thinking that the unconscious could be of two main types: > that of a > mountain and that of our solar logos at the logoic plane. Then I > thought > that one could go into some wilderness where mankind had never > been known > and sit ever so quietly and sense the divine unconsciousness all > around, > totally undisturbed by Man. And then! Bam! It was so funny. > Here is this > serious scientist sitting ever so quietly observing the divine > unconsciousness of Nature, out in the middle of nowhere, and what > is > actually happening is the entire forest is becoming aware that > there is > about one hundred and fifty pounds of food just sitting there, > unaware and > undefended. It was so funny! You had to be there! It would be > like this > huge animate Brownie(with pecans!) entering some kindergarden > class of > hungry children merely to sit quietly and observe their natural > behavior! > Ha! Talk about observer effect! I'm weird. I had the best > laugh I've had > for years. To see that big yummy brownie sitting there taking > notes and all > those children getting closer and closer. > ====================================== > DTB I have difficulty equating some of the expressions of modern > psychology with their Theosophical equivalents. They do not > always seem to mean the same thing. > > > Look at the words UNCONSCIOUS and UNCONSCIOUSNESS. Is the > implication there that below human CONSCIOUSNESS there is NO > CONSCIOUSNESS ? I would tend to disagree, as to my mind the > purposiveness of all beings (atoms, sub-atoms, cells, molecules, > and various other structures in just the small limits of the > physical plane and it is a type of 'matter-by-obstruction' (the > WHIRLING FAN example) I would say we need a wider spectrum of > definition. Example: What are the sub-atomic particles? Forces > and Fields with a purpose. They obey fundamental laws IN THEIR > ENVIRONMENT SET BY NATURE. Nature being ever-present, those LAWS > are being looked into by us (same of the mega-side - in > astronomy. What are 50 billion or 5,000 billion light-years of > distance to us, who are pigmy-intelligences and very small minds > indeed on our insignificant EARTH ? > > Yet these same MINDS of ours are able to embrace the phenomena > and speculate on possibles and potentials in other places where > we have no present instrumentation to penetrate -- we see only > the movement of surfaces and the WHY is still unclear. > > We do however have the wisdom to say that LAW must be operating > everywhere and we can trust it because of it persistence and > regularity of repetition.. > > Well this has been most interesting. Thank you. Wonder if what > I write is helpful. > Best wishes for 2001, et seq -- and many thanks for yours which I > reciprocate. > Dallas > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Love, > Gene > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "AA-SD-BN" > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM > Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > December 19, 2000 > > > > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into. > > > > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all > > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not > the > > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that. > > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about > > other's. > > > > > > > > > > From zanotta@unb.br Thu Dec 28 09:34:09 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: zanotta@unb.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 28 Dec 2000 17:34:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 2263 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2000 17:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Dec 2000 17:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.unb.br) (164.41.101.3) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Dec 2000 17:34:05 -0000 Received: from server0.unb.br (pc21.lbqp.unb.br [164.41.95.21]) by mail.unb.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA86869; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:33:25 -0200 (EDT) Message-ID: <3A4B78E7.3C4329B6@unb.br> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:31:19 -0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Cc: AA-Dal Subject: Re: Theos-World world's greatest medicine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Pedro Thanks and the same for all of you1!! Light & Peace zanotta dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > > December 23, 2000 > > GREETINGS AND BEST WISHES TO ALL FOR 20001 > > Dal & Val TenBroeck > > =================================================== > > Is Hugging a Miracle Drug ? > > Hugging is healthy, it helps our body's immune system; keeps > you healthier; > cures depression; reduces stress; induces sleep; is invigorating, > rejuvenating; has no unpleasant side effects. > > Hugging is all natural, organic, contains no pesticides or > preservatives, > no artificial ingredients, wholesome, practically perfect and > naturally sweet. > > Hugging has no batteries to wear out; no moveable parts; no > periodic > check-ups needed; non-fattening; inflation-proof; needs no > monthly payments > nor insurance; is theft proof; non taxable; non polluting and... > of course in fully returnable. > > ================= From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 29 11:45:09 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 29 Dec 2000 19:45:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 25533 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2000 19:45:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2000 19:45:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 Dec 2000 19:45:08 -0000 Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24826 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:56:00 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0688.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.178]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16727; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:43:15 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:38:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 28, 2000 Re: Are Knowledge and Wisdom indistinguishable? Dear Friends: To be WISE in the fullest sense is to have a command over all possible avenues of KARMA. It implies a compete knowledge of the LAWS of NATURE . Choices of application of knowledge are WISDOM, providing there is no further obstruction to the operations of Nature introduced by such a choice. The Buddha Gautama Siddartha was said to have such a knowledge, and when he spoke or acted it was the application (WISDOM) which emanated from him in practical acts. This knowledge was termed Samma Sambuddhaha. Its harmonious and balanced applications demonstrated his mastery of the purposeful life of a true Sage. He left as legacy to mankind the DHAMMAPADA -- Footfalls of the Law -- (423 verses that all the monks (Bhikkus) agreed were his actual words). It is a good idea to review this, as it is to be found in the book by Sir Edwin Arnold: THE LIGHT OF ASIA, particularly Chapters (Books) 6, 7, 8. Every Sage, Prophet or Adept had a mission which took him to work at a crucial point in time to a tribe, or a nation so as to leave them with the evidence of a living IDEAL MAN or WOMAN. We find records of contemporaries of the Buddha Gautama Siddartha (6th Cent. B.C.) in Confucius and Lao Tse, Hiawatha, Pythagoras, Manco Capac, and others. Krishna, an Avatara of Vishnu the Preserver of Wisdom and harmony, came at the opening of the Kali Yuga (the Dark Age) about 5,000 years ago. He left as legacy the BHAGAVAD GITA. A document that will be useful to generations of mankind for a period that will extend for 432,000 years. Jesus came to reform the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." His legacy is to be found in the SERMON ON THE MOUNT. Other, more ancient Sages, left myths, traditions and legends of their work, such as Rama in the RAMAYANA, or the seven Rishis who left as their legacy the Vedas and the Upanishads, the Puranas, and the Aranyakas. Then there are Odin and the myths of the Scandinavian Gods of the Aesir. The ancient wisdom of the Druids seems to have few traces left of it in Gaelic regions -- just as many another ancient system has been lost and forgotten. The wisdom of ancient Persia held by the long line of ZOROASTERS is another system to be considered, as is also the WISDOM OF HERMES preserved by the wise Hierophants in the ancient temples of EGYPT -- and this is said to have been received from the Eastern AEtheopeans, as the old Hindus were then named. As I understand it the line of Wisdom teachings from Jesus, (who learned from the Rabbis, Chaldeans, Nazars, Buddhist Monks - settled around the Sea of Galilee - and the Egyptian Hierophants) was preceded by the same Chaldeans, Assyrians, Egyptians, and then, the still more ancient Zoroastrians, Buddhists, and the Hindu RISHIS, BUDDHAS, and MANUS. The ancient Hindus shared the more ancient Wisdom of the Atlantides of myth, tradition and legends - giant men physically and mentally - with the ancient Chinese Sages. And so we may trace the record of the ONE WISDOM RELIGION down the ages to our present days. To the amazement of the Western invaders, the ancient wisdom of the American "Indians" Mayas, Incas, Hopi, etc...) was found to agree with expressions of that wisdom in the Far East and ancient Europe, such as the Scandinavian, Teutonic, Druidic, and other legends. The great ancient monuments such as STONEHENGE and CARNAC illustrate a practical knowledge of astronomy, and of time and cycle determination, known to the wise men of antiquity. The tremendous (and so far un-reproducible monuments) such as Pyramids and other structures in every quarter of our globe, ancient irrigation channels, etc., show that the Arts and Sciences of the past existed. One might observe that NATURE ALREADY CONTAINS EVERYTHING. Our Science is delving into her most minute portions, the atoms, and their components, and of furtherest distances with our new instruments -- and demonstrating the exactitude of Her arrangements and manifestations. Everything has been built with extreme care and purpose under LAWS that are immutable in time and space. This has to be admitted as a first step. It will always be relied on by true Science. It may be called the TRUTH in Nature and certainly is evidence of her sincerity, diligence and honesty insofar as every creature (including us) is concerned. The fact of the great community of ethical and historical records is astonishing when we get down to studying it carefully. H.P.B. is found to have done this in her writings, and more recently Joseph Campbell demonstrated these similarities. This is how I understand it. If these books are to be compared there will be found a remarkable similarity in ethics and application -- which gives us a survey of the path that Sages learn and then follow as a guide for their lives. They serve mankind by leaving such legacies. The humanity that is influenced by their words and ideas then receive the duty of clear and honest transmission. They know that it will always be up to the free choice of every Mind to decide to look for, test and follow the Ideal OLD PATH towards Perfection. For students of Theosophy H.P.B. left as her "tradition" not only THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, but THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, ISIS UNVEILED, and THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Each of these books supplements the others and serves to focus and concentrate the WISDOM of our World, regardless of who may have first recorded or uttered it. WISDOM is the common property of all humanity. It can be interpreted by each Mind alone, and to itself. We are as a group of nations learning and studying the great LAWS of living which ANCIENT MOTHER NATURE has set for all to use. None of us are prevented from sharing such Gems of Wisdom as they may discover with others. In fact it is most valuable to be able to freely and carefully compare all such verities with those recorded in the past, and which are being studied and considered by many Minds today. Best wishes, Dallas ========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Geeky [mailto:luperj@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 7:27 AM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Is wisdom knowledge of all truths? CUT From lifemaster@talk21.com Fri Dec 29 18:18:50 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: lifemaster@talk21.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 30 Dec 2000 02:18:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 45111 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2000 02:18:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2000 02:18:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO t21mta00-app.talk21.com) (62.172.192.40) by mta3 with SMTP; 30 Dec 2000 03:19:54 -0000 Received: from johnlest ([213.120.7.97]) by t21mta00-app.talk21.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20001230021728.HFLH10093.t21mta00-app.talk21.com@johnlest>; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 02:17:28 +0000 To: , Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 02:19:45 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "John Lester" Someone told me that there is a Theosophy "scale of knowledge to mystery" which shows different levels of ability to control, to be responsible and to know, dependent upon ?????. Maybe a subscriber to this list might post something on the subject? Thanks John Lester From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 30 17:22:41 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 31 Dec 2000 01:22:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 33541 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2000 01:22:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2000 01:22:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Dec 2000 02:23:46 -0000 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05713 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:33:30 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0107.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.107]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02278; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:22:34 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-Theos-List" , "AA-Theos-talk" Subject: TRUTH -- symbols -- numbers Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:18:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 30, 2000 Forwarded by DTB with permission from JW From: Jerome Wheeler [mailto:ultinla@juno.com] > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 7:25 AM > To: > > Subject: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind] > > A comment on this statement by Geeky: > > > "The game of numbers? What matters who said what, or when, or > where it is written? > Truth is truth, and once realized belongs to all." > > ============= > Jerome answers: > > It matters because we all belong to each other. TRUTH is not a private > ball-park, but is another word for the SELF. Mother earth is a single > globe and there is no place to hide. > > If the Lord Buddha has all seven principles under his conscious > control --- or in plain language if he has a PURIFIED vehicle--- what > comes thru that vehicle is of surpassing importance not just to him, but to > ALL OF US whether they be atheists, Christians, or Presbyterians! It is > common property and cannot escape having its imprint upon all of us for > "good" or for "ill." > > Human brotherhood is not what people think it is. Emotionalism > is not philosophy. There is a radical UNITY throughout nature and the > consequent suffering and blindness all of us more or less swim in > is a result of our denial of this fact. Mind you, not denial just in > words, but in things like intent, or attitude, or deeds! > > Or as the S.D. might answer your query: > > > " "The nucleoles are eternal and everlasting; the nuclei > periodical and finite. The nucleoles form part of the absolute. They are the > embrasures of that black impenetrable fortress, which is for ever > concealed from human or even Dhyanic sight. The nuclei are the > light of eternity escaping therefrom." > > > "It is that LIGHT... which becomes on the objective plane gross > matter [and from which] proceed the numerous hierarchies of the Creative > Forces, some formless, others having their own distinctive form, others, > again, the lowest (Elementals), having no form of their own, but > assuming every form according to the surrounding conditions." > > > "Thus there is but one Absolute Upadhi (basis) in the spiritual > sense, from, on, and in which, are built for Manvantaric purposes the > countless basic centres on which proceed the Universal, cyclic, and > individual Evolutions during the active period." > > > "The informing intelligences, which animate these various > centres of Being, are referred to indiscriminately ... as Dhyani Buddhas, > the Chohans, Melhas (fire-gods), Bodhisattvas, and others.... The > truly ignorant call them gods; the learned profane, the one God; and > the wise, the Initiates, honour in them only the Manvantaric manifestations > of THAT which neither our Creators (the Dhyan Chohans) nor their > creatures can ever discuss or know anything about. The ABSOLUTE is not to be > defined, and no mortal or immortal has ever seen or comprehended it during > the periods of Existence. The mutable cannot know the Immutable, nor > can that which lives perceive Absolute Life." > > > "Therefore, man cannot know higher beings than his own > progenitors." "Nor shall he worship them," but he ought to learn how he came into > the world." (S.D. II, 33-34) > > > ==================== > > > Historically there is a way to do it without the mentality side. > On rare occasions people give themselves away to US with no conditions > asked and no thought of reward. If this is what Geeky had in mind, then > Yes, maybe the point is well made. > > > best of the cycle to you, > Jerome ======================================== > From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 30 17:23:16 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 31 Dec 2000 01:23:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 34832 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2000 01:23:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2000 01:23:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Dec 2000 01:23:15 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0107.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.107]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03926; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:23:07 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:18:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c070ea$e0e55d00$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 30, 2000 Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday. BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours. Dear Gene: I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the 7 Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and I use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as a basis . I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her (and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4). So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions using those originals of H.P.B. Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being, perception and of action . So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is rendered clear. Sorry. Let me add some comments to yours given below. Dal ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Dear Dallas, Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be food for thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be consumed, digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be able to follow your reasoning. I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are expanding and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. Also you are associating from planes into the seven principles which are numbered differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow you as I'm familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and how Subba Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his numbering system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to the planes and pondering their logical derivation: Will causes love and intelligent activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and each of the seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the Will or the Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect). I might point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words to describe the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be clarifying: -------------------------------------------------------- DTB Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD to achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate action, the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions to the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think you will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend a great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on. What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of that pencil, -- and so on. -------------------------------------- Yours My comments ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- 1. DTB ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY. 2. Absoluteness DTB NO THING 3. Absolute DTB NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 ) 4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB WHY LATENT? It can be activated and relied on at need. MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a basis for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.) If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI and MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas. It is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can." 5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS WE GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a personal or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves to look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions, words, feelings. 6. Astral(emotions) DTB NOT part of my concept, as the word "astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior to the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a location pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence, electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to this was its other capacity of recording all the events that concerned Lower Manas DTB EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B. relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this is distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general Life-current in man and Nature. DTB Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the life-currents JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do with the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for whatever purpose our life is set for) and DTB Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic substance) and which also a storage place to act as a recording center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It is said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa. 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE. Just above here. DTB Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those "blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them. When in motion they obstruct or injure.) ================================== I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper three planes using my abstract mind as best I can. DTB I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY, the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey. I'm trying to understand these DTB SO AM I as best I can before again cycling downward through the four "lower" permutations of the these states of consciousness. I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the abstract mind and trying to receive through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual thought, of the buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of the Atmic state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for us, perfected humanity. ------------------------------------------ DTB IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I don't think there is much profit in making such an identification FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if it helps than use the ideas and concepts. But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits. (Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid -- we depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have graduated, and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc... to better define what we have added to our past conclusions and definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to ourselves to be valid THEN. If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we are emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go, cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster. But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this ability to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So difficult to convey exactly what I mean. Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means nothing to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the SPACE is left there undisturbed. ========================================= All of your comments are right-on and very well reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance with them as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to understand the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond all possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our solar logos. ----------------------------------------------- DTB WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD as a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit of evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS, and the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL. One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be a transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes care of the level of motive as it is universalized and made impersonal "for the good of all." But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the ability to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and see it moving all the various links from plane to plane and principle to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane result, action, etc... . To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the "Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser experience than ours). I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is the first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all creatures." ================================== To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect and one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life itself. To more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our father's will is a trip! ---------------------------------------------- DTB I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those are NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action becomes more apparent. One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I saw this was not so). I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the MONAD in evolution. Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws and rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which it participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work of all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms of wisdom, will, knowledge, etc... This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to higher wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions -- (Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence of selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible. The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As we grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many "names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also immortals is a highly important one. But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in all this writing. Best wishes as always and for the coming year Dal COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends truly. Companions, Gene ======================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 27, 2000 > > Dear Gene: > > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments below > in the body of yours? > > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the > other principles at their level. > > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration to > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts and > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to > have few words in English to be exact with. > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic and > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own > faculties, but not identical. > > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether Universal > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware of > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." > we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 30 17:23:33 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 31 Dec 2000 01:23:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 89287 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2000 01:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2000 01:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Dec 2000 02:24:38 -0000 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05814 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:34:22 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0107.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.107]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04770; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:23:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Second Fundamental Proposition - SD vol 1, pages 16-17 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:18:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net December 30, 2000 SECOND FUNDAMENTAL ETERNAL LAW We seem to be dealing with metaphysical ultimates as before. But the view shifts from the SOURCE, to "How does it work?" Included of necessity is the question: "Who are the workers?" What is the ultimate GOAL of living and How do we succeed in attaining it ? This 2nd Fundamental deals essentially with the Laws that are common to all of us and which bind the Universe into a complete UNITY. If the total UNIVERSE is a boundless plane, that seems to be only a symbol for the actuality of a SPHERE with numberless layers, experiences, and types of conditions and experiences. Since it is ETERNAL one expects to find embedded in IT, as well as all its components, certain laws. Of these cooperation, mutual assistance, brotherhood appear to be the most ancient and basic. On any plane the UNIVERSE (and its components -- which of necessity 'mirror' it) is interdependent with any and all aspects of its multitude, the countless 'parts.' Cooperation and mutual tolerance appear to be superior laws. Brotherhood epitomizes these. It is taught that each part reflects all the potentials of the great whole. This is not immediate or spontaneous, as time has to be given for individual development through self-choice and constant interaction with all the rest. (but this begins to infringe on the THIRD Fundamental). In regard to totality, it is said that there is not a finger-space devoid of Monads in the entire limitless, boundless UNIVERSE (S.D. I 289). The question of individual isolation and, universal responsibility due to the WHOLE become matters for consideration. Are these valid conditions? Do they lead to true progress and emancipation? Do they solve the paradox of our existence? How can immortals be confined to a form? How can a "form" dream of immortality ? We observe that the "plane" is a representation of the WHOLE (which our Minds accept as being the representative of a SPHERE). It appears to be spread out between the polar opposites of SPIRIT and MATTER. The first representing the ideal BEING and the second, being the finite, restrictive forms adopted for the manifestation of the universal LIFE-FORCE. The alternation between sleeping and waking, and between life and death are found to be universally present, whether these involve the Monads, or the Worlds and Systems of worlds. Its "components" are found to be named MONADS in the Secret Doctrine. They are also said to be immortal, eternal pilgrims, and each is able to reproduce any or all of the forces, powers and wisdom of the WHOLE in such time as its independence leads it to active participation in the conduct of the affairs of the UNIVERSE -- but, always on a voluntary basis. In all cases the great Laws of the Universe operate to accommodate all types and kinds of intelligence. This indulgence based on compassion, universal love and the desire that all should become wise, does not obviate the educative aspects of the operation of the just, universal, impartial, and harmonizing effect of LAW. It is named generally Karma. Aspects of the reaction of the Universe to selfish choices made by some isolated Monads who assume (once they acquire the gift of the Mind) they have the free-will to oppose the harmony and balance of Nature in favor of some chosen condition they think will be more suitable to their isolation of ease and non-responsibility. The living Universe in all its vast diversity demonstrates the fact of alternation. It appears to be a whirling wheel, with as said earlier, life and death, growth and disintegration, dark and light, sleep and wakefulness, ignorance and wisdom, etc... (the "Pairs of Opposites") forming the main partners to living. These are a part of the Source FORCE, and they may be said to be providing the panorama of colors, and the gamut of thought, memories, ideas, views and colors so necessary for the mind to understand its capacity as an independent and free-willed CHOOSER. With the present as a basis for decision, it may use its capacity to choose, to frame in anticipation the future it wishes to secure or adapt to itself. At this point theosophy which embodies the wisdom of all past experience, steps in and reminds the Soul/Mind that it is an immortal Pilgrim and is confronted with the difficult task of choosing the "Right Path" or the "Left Path." The complexity of the moral (ethical) universe arises to lead him into the consideration of the duties and responsibilities of an IMMORTAL who lives with other immortals, and which will have to bear the burden of Karmic results based on its own private and individual choices. The fact that one is an Immortal Pilgrim also proposes to show the Mind that while the form or body may change, the EGO-SUM, The Divine Self within (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) does not change. ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is it that passes through the states of sleep, trance, death, and rebirth or reawakening. The MONAD that is our REAL SELF (ATMA-BUDDHI) is also the eternal Pupil. Thus we have for the 2nd Fundamental: University of the plane of manifestation. Similarity of basic source powers. An identity of spirit, matter and mind, which three are widely shared and which form the "connecting bonds of action." Immortality implies responsibility, and the balance of Nature implies a program of education into which every singe "Life-atom" (Monad) fits. It may also be said that there are certain impossibilities inherent in such a situation. We are never totally ALONE and ISOLATED. Nothing we think, feel say, or act is hidden or forgotten. Nature has her recording agents and the Akasa is that imperishable record of all actions of all the Monads in existence. Alternations of life and death, sleeping and waking, etc... make for a continuous learning experience, and as the Monad learns more, its responsibilities widen and deepen. The moral character of everyone is open to the inspection of the Sages and the Wise. Law operates incessantly, even if we are unaware of its presence and touch. We constantly inscribe our own nature as a permanent record on the imperishable scrolls of the Akasa. I hope this may prove of use -- this is what I have secured from a study of the 3 Fundamentals of the SECRET DOCTRINE. -----Original Message----- From: Moderator [mailto:nous@btinternet.com] Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 7:48 AM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Second Fundamental Proposition - SD vol 1, pages 16-17 Friends, It is now time to move on to THE SECOND FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITION of the Secret Doctrine. If you have any further comments that bear directly on the First Fundamental, please do send them in. PLEASE NOTE: I will not be forwarding any further messages to the list on the other threads that have arisen over the last weeks. I would like to invite everyone to re-focus on the Topic in hand. Lets see if we can help each other to better understand this Second Fundamental Assertion and its underlying implications. It is only a short passage, so I give it in full, below (between the ===== signs). If you do not have your own copy of the SD click on the link at the bottom of this page to be taken to the Secret Doctrine on-line. As you read through the passage below, is there something there that stands out more than the rest, for you? Is there something you particularly do not understand? If so please share it with us. Are there any other passages in the SD, HPB's other writings, the Mahatma Letters & so on, that would give us another perspective on the passage below? To help the newer students, would any of the 'older students' care to explain how "eternity" can be "like a wink of the Eye of Self-Existence"? Happy studying, ...Peter Merriott ps: for those new to the List, I always send the new topic in from "Moderator" in order to help people easily locate the current study passages. =============================== Further, the Secret Doctrine affirms:-- (b.) The Eternity of the Universe in toto as a boundless plane; periodically "the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and disappearing," called "the manifesting stars," and the "sparks of Eternity." "The Eternity of the Pilgrim"** is like a wink of the Eye of Self-Existence (Book of Dzyan.) "The appearance and disappearance of Worlds is like a regular tidal ebb of flux and reflux." (See Part II., "Days and Nights of Brahma.") This second assertion of the Secret Doctrine is the absolute universality of that law of periodicity, of flux and reflux, ebb and flow, which physical science has observed and recorded in all departments of nature. An alternation such as that of Day and Night, Life and Death, Sleeping and Waking, is a fact so common, so perfectly universal and without exception, that it is easy to comprehend that in it we see one of the absolutely fundamental laws of the universe. [Footnote] ------------------------------------------------- ** "Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our Monad (the two in one) during its cycle of incarnations. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in us, being an indivisible part of the integral whole -- the Universal Spirit, from which it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the cycle. When it is said to emanate from the one spirit, an awkward and incorrect expression has to be used, for lack of appropriate words in English. The Vedantins call it Sutratma (Thread-Soul), but their explanation, too, differs somewhat from that of the occultists; to explain which difference, however, is left to the Vedantins themselves. (SD I 16-17) ========================= "The Secret Doctrine" on-line: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm On-line PROEM (pages 1-24) of the Secret Doctrine: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-0-pr.htm --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/ You are currently subscribed to bn-sd as: [dalval14@earthlink.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-sd-6640832V@lists.lyris.net From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Dec 31 10:18:17 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 31 Dec 2000 18:18:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 908 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2000 18:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2000 18:18:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Dec 2000 19:19:22 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id KAA23160 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id KAA23156 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002b01c07357$058f99e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:25:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Dallas, I appreciate all your comments. It is very good for me to remember the differences so as not to get confused concerning the word astral and it's different uses. I know the HPB's materials are the basis and the foundation for all further work in theosophy. There are clear differences, however, between the seven states of consciousness and the seven principles as: three of the planes of any set of seven planes are abstract and out of manifestation. All of the prinicples are within manifestation. The subtleties are kept in mind. The gross non-etheric plane is not a principle. Atma is not a principle, strictly speaking. And. The entire emotional plane is not a principle, I have recently seen suggested. The Buddhic-Intuitive state of consciousness is latent thought as this is the manifesting plane for the Monadic State of Consciousness, the second plane from the top, it seems. This Monadic Plane, the plane of the Causeless Cause, is beyond all possible thought(but not beyond the Heart of hearts). So it is appropriate that Beauty, Harmony, Grace, Intuition, Buddhi(Beauty?) be beyond actual thought. The poet speaks of THAT beyond all possible thought. A remarkable art, no? The successful poet speaks of the Absoluteness. All THAT there is is the UNKNOWABLE Therefore, All that can be known is the unknowable. (I have just adroitly proved that I'm no poet) If I were to see at the logoic level, the first plane, this would be Atma. If I were to see at the monadic level, this would appear as Buddhic. If I were to see at the Atmic level, the third plane, this would be Manasic. And seeing on all these supreme levels(the upper three) would be Atma-Buddhi-Manas. The Buddhi-Manas part would be Hermes-Venus or Hermes-Aphrodite or Hermaphrodite(Collected Works, Vol. 12, early part of the Second Instruction, around page 532 or so) Hence the struggle to see at the highest planes in order to one day manifest through the middle and transpersonal planes. Brother Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 30, 2000 > > Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday. > BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours. > > > Dear Gene: > > I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the 7 > Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and I > use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as a > basis . > > I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her > (and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of > what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified > they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4). > > So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions using > those originals of H.P.B. > > Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics > involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being, > perception and of action . > > So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is > rendered clear. Sorry. > > Let me add some comments to yours given below. > > Dal > > ================================ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > Dear Dallas, > > Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be > food for > thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be > consumed, > digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be > able to > follow your reasoning. > > I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are > expanding > and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. > Also you are > associating from planes into the seven principles which are > numbered > differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow > you as I'm > familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and > how Subba > Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his > numbering > system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to > the planes > and pondering their logical derivation: > Will causes love and intelligent > activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and > each of the > seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the > Will or the > Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect). > I might > point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words > to describe > the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be > clarifying: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > DTB Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD to > achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you > desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the > desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate action, > the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by > activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions to > the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think you > will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is > legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend a > great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used > casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on. > What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of > that pencil, -- and so on. > -------------------------------------- > Yours My comments > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > 1. DTB ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY. > > 2. Absoluteness DTB NO THING > > 3. Absolute DTB NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 ) > > 4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB WHY LATENT? It can be > activated and relied on at need. > MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a basis > for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the > probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think > may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the > individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more > clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of > TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.) > If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of > thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI and > MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas. It > is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) > in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER > MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can." > > 5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS WE > GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT > INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a personal > or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some > time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have > often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves to > look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions, > words, feelings. > > 6. Astral(emotions) DTB NOT part of my concept, as the word > "astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions > related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior to > the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a location > pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence, > electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the > physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds > substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to > this was its other capacity of recording all the events that > concerned Lower Manas > DTB EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B. > relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this is > distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general > Life-current in man and Nature. > DTB Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the life-currents > JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as > it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do with > the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for > whatever purpose our life is set for) and > DTB Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic > substance) and which also a storage place to act as a recording > center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It is > said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa. > 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS > APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE. > Just above here. > DTB Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms > of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that > resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those > "blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them. > When in motion they obstruct or injure.) > ================================== > > I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper > three > planes using my abstract mind as best I can. > DTB I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought > when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered > through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link > between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY, > the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort > the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey. > > I'm trying to understand these DTB SO AM I > > as best I can before again cycling downward through the four > "lower" > permutations of the these states of consciousness. > I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the > abstract mind and trying to receive > through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual > thought, of the > buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of > the Atmic > state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for > us, > perfected humanity. > ------------------------------------------ > DTB IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I > don't think there is much profit in making such an identification > FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if > it helps than use the ideas and concepts. > But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words > and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits. > (Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid -- we > depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have graduated, > and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc... to > better define what we have added to our past conclusions and > definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to ourselves > to be valid THEN. > If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does > not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it > because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we are > emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go, > cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster. > But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of > our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this ability > to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So > difficult to convey exactly what I mean. > Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means nothing > to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION > rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which > anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged > background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the > SPACE is left there undisturbed. > ========================================= > All of your comments are right-on and very well > reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance > with them > as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to > understand > the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond > all > possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our > solar > logos. > ----------------------------------------------- > DTB WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD as > a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer > who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and > render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a > fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or > FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit of > evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS, and > the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL. > One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be a > transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes care > of the level of motive as it is universalized and made impersonal > "for the good of all." > But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the ability > to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and see > it moving all the various links from plane to plane and principle > to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane result, > action, etc... . > To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are > into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true > LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as > such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the > "Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser > experience than ours). > I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is the > first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the > transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a > permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere > voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all > creatures." > ================================== > To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect > and > one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life > itself. To > more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our > father's > will is a trip! > ---------------------------------------------- > DTB I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face > with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those are > NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower > mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential > of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action > becomes more apparent. > One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and > Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has > tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those > terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I > saw this was not so). > I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of > the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER > and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the > MONAD in evolution. > Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and > all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and > eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always > growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws and > rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which it > participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work of > all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms of > wisdom, will, knowledge, etc... > This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas > uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to higher > wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions -- > (Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower > Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence of > selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence > makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible. > The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary > decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As we > grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the > Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many > "names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our > responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also > immortals is a highly important one. > But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in all > this writing. > Best wishes as always and for the coming year > Dal > > COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends > truly. > > Companions, > Gene > > ======================================== > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM > Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > December 27, 2000 > > > > Dear Gene: > > > > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments > below > > in the body of yours? > > > > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each > > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the > > other principles at their level. > > > > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably > > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration > to > > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and > > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common > > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts > and > > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to > > have few words in English to be exact with. > > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of > > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. > > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of > > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is > > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, > > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is > > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic > and > > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own > > faculties, but not identical. > > > > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether > Universal > > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi > > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental > > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, > > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from > > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to > > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware > of > > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through > > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." > > > we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL. > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Sun Dec 31 10:29:03 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 31 Dec 2000 18:29:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 49147 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2000 18:29:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2000 18:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Dec 2000 18:29:02 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id KAA23271 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id KAA23267 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:29:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004301c07358$86ac02b0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:36:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dependent upon Consciousness ????? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lester" To: ; Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind > Someone told me that there is a Theosophy "scale of knowledge to mystery" > which shows different levels of ability to control, to be responsible and to > know, dependent upon ?????. > > Maybe a subscriber to this list might post something on the subject? > > Thanks > > John Lester > > > > > >