From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Jul 01 16:48:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18282 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 23:48:02 -0000 Received: from pool0199.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.146.199] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PAtV-0003AD-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:47:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Color and Music Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 1 2002 Dear Friends: A simple test as t whether the Higher Manas ( Buddhi-Manas) or the Lower Manas ( Kama-Manas) might suggest that the use of the words Kama ( desire, passions & emotions ) or Buddhi ( virtue, discrimination and wisdom ) are working. The Inner self, the center of our eternal CONSCIOUSNESS is the Perceiver. It can determine what, and who is operating at any time in the mind. Of course our "mind" awake and active right now is Kama-Manas. To quiet Kama-Manas and secure control is a Buddhi-Manasic function. It has been described in terms of dispassion, equanimity, universality, and brotherhood to all beings. If operative, it takes all into account as living parts of the ONE UNIVERSE. To those who are imbued with the theological vocabulary, this is saying GOD. Or rather, the ubiquity (omnipresence) of the God principle. This makes it implicit that We are, in our innermost consciousness, a fragment of that ONE DIVINE. There is no separation, no imbalance, no higher or lower. In one aspect we can equate beauty as an ideal with harmony. It has to be dynamic since everything changes ( fast or slowly ). The One STABILITY is that which we conceive of as SPIRIT, as the HIGHEST GOOD. And THAT is one things that serves as a contrast with all the rest. Degrees of beauty or of discord and ugliness are matters of our personal make-up. We can use our likes and dislikes as impersonal mirrors of our "personality." It is how we view ourselves, and that is the lower the personal point of view. The HIGHER is always the Ideal. And often the personality denies that IDEAL. As to carrying it from life to life, is that not one of the duties of the "skandhas ?" But what are the "skandhas?" Are we not told they are Monads at lower levels of education and advancement, each one being an immortal, and all progressing along with each other in various ways inter-related and cooperative. The Real ruler of the Worlds of the Universe is the impersonal Law of Karma ( or God immanent in its OMNIPOTENT quality ). But for such extreme accuracy, where all living "lives" or "atoms" are considered, there has also to be OMNIPRESENCE -- the God quality present in every one without exception. OMNISCIENCE is the quality of being CONSCIOUS. One might say succinctly: the UNIVERSE is embodied CONSCIOUSNESS. It is also significant that the action of the Higher Mind, of Buddhi-Manas always involves synthesis, or the consideration of all relevant factors. The action of the Lower Mind ( Kama-Manas ) always involves analysis, separation, division, and an emphasis on differences rather than on similarities. It is the method of thought and making conclusions most frequently met with in daily life all around us. But, it is significant in Theosophical Philosophy and metaphysics, that the unifying quality expressed by BROTHERHOOD -- as a kind of mantram -- draws lour attention back to the unit as its participation, of necessity in the whole, of the dynamic quality of this participation, and of the total educational progression of al being working and living together as eternal immortals do. Now the question is: Is this a useful depiction of the situation we are all in? Can we use it as a basis for disciplining, evaluating and controlling our personal reactions? Can the Higher Mind ( Buddhi Manas ) be encouraged to become the true actor in each of us ? Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 7:38 AM To: Subject: Color and Music Very interesting and informative discussion this past week on color and music. Once again, it is good to see someone else carrying the ball with discussion once in a while. Christina's original post carried with it questions on whether certain types of music were more beneficial than others. We have seen that color has been used to help control prisoners. red was found to have an exciting effect on humans while blue has a calming effect. Music can "sooth the savage beast" or can enrage him. What interests me is that the identical music seems to have different effects on different persons. One sits enraptured at an opera while another gets a headache. One is calmed by rock music (my wife) while another (me) is revolted. One is soothed by country music while another hears only discord. Beyond this, what is it in us that responds to beauty? What is beauty anyway? Why does one find something beautiful while another perceives the same thing as ugly? Is this just something environmental from this life or is it something we carry with us from life to life? Is it the higher or lower self at work here? Any ideas? Larry From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Jul 01 20:16:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 48217 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.30) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 03:16:05 -0000 Received: from [169.197.9.51] by mail.san.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:17:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:17:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3D064A9E000127EE@mta05.san.yahoo.com> Subject: Blavatsky and the Cup & Saucer Materialization To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Blavatsky and the Cup & Saucer Materialization=20 Testimony of A. P. Sinnett,=20 October 3, 1880,=20 Simla, India=20 We set out at the appointed time next morning. We were originally to have been a party of six, but a seventh person joined us just before we started. After going down the hill for some hours a place was chosen in the wood near the upper waterfall for our breakfast: the baskets that had been brought with us were unpacked, and the servants at a little distance lighted a fire and set to work to make tea and coffee. Concerning this some joking arose over the fact that we had one cup and saucer too few, on account of the seventh person who joined us at starting, and some one laughingly asked Madame Blavatsky to create another cup and saucer. When Madame Blavatsky said it would be very difficult, but that if we liked she would try, attention was of course at once arrested. Madame Blavatsky, as usual, held mental conversation with one of the Brothers, and then wandered a little about in the immediate neighborhood of where we were sitting?that is to say, within a radius of half a dozen to a dozen yards from our picnic cloth?I closely following, waiting to see what would happen. Then she marked a spot on the ground, and called to one of the gentlemen of the party to bring a knife to dig with. The place chosen was the edge of a little slope covered with thick weeds and grass and shrubby undergrowth. The gentleman with the knife [Major Philip Henderson] tore up these in the first place with some difficulty, as the roots were tough and closely interlaced. Cutting then into the matted roots and earth with the knife, and pulling away the debris with his hands, he came at last, on the edge of something white, which turned out, as it was completely excavated, to be the required cup. A corresponding saucer was also found after a little more digging. Both objects were in among the roots, which spread everywhere through the ground, so that it seemed as if the roots were growing round them. The cup and saucer both corresponded exactly, as regards their pattern, with those that had been brought to the picnic, and constituted a seventh cup and saucer when brought back to where we were to have breakfast. Afterwards, when we got home, my wife questioned our principal khitmutgar as to how many cups and saucers of that particular kind we possessed. In the progress of years, as the set was an old set, some had been broken, but the man at once said that nine teacups were left. When collected and counted that number was found to be right, without reckoning the excavated cup. That made ten, and as regards the pattern, it was one of a somewhat peculiar kind, bought a good many years previously in London, and which assuredly could never have been matched in Simla. If the phenomenon was not what it appeared to be?a most wonderful display of a power of which the modern scientific world has no comprehension whatever?it was, of course, an elaborate fraud. That supposition will only bear to be talked of vaguely. The cup and saucer were assuredly dug up in the way I describe. If they were not deposited there by occult agency, they must have been buried there beforehand. Now, I have described the character of the ground from which they were dug up; assuredly that had been undisturbed for years by the character of the vegetation upon it. But it may be urged that from some other part of the sloping ground a sort of tunnel may have been excavated in the first instance through which the cup and saucer could have been thrust into the place where they were found. If the tunnel had been big enough for the purpose, it would have left traces, which were not perceptible on the ground?which were not even discoverable when the ground was searched shortly afterwards with a view to that hypothesis. But the truth is that the theory of previous burial is untenable in view of the fact that the demand for the cup and saucer?of all the myriad things that might have been asked for?could never have been foreseen. It arose out of circumstances themselves the sport of the moment. If no extra person had joined us at the last moment, the number of cups and saucers packed up by the servants would have been sufficient for our needs, and no attention would have been drawn to them. It was by the servants, without the knowledge of any guest, that the cups taken were chosen from others that might just as easily have been taken. Had the burial fraud been really perpetrated, it would have been necessary to constrain us to choose the exact spot we did actually choose for the picnic with a view to the previous preparations, but the exact spot on which the ladies? jampans were deposited was chosen by myself in concert with [Mr. Henderson], and it was within a few yards of this spot that the cup was found. Thus who could be the agents employed to deposit the cup and saucer in the ground, and when did they perform the operation? Madame Blavatsky was under our roof the whole time from the previous evening, when the picnic was determined on, to the moment of starting. The one personal servant she had with her, a Bombay boy and a perfect stranger to Simla, was constantly about the house the previous evening, and from the first awakening of the household in the morning. Colonel Olcott, also a guest of ours at the time, was certainly with us all evening and was also present at the start. To imagine that he spent the night in going four or five miles through forest paths difficult to find, to bury a cup and saucer of a kind that we were not likely to take, in a place we were not likely to go to, in order that in the exceedingly remote contingency of its being required for the perpetration of a hoax it might be there, would certainly be a somewhat extravagant conjecture. Another consideration?the destination for which we were making can be approached by two roads from opposite ends of the upper horseshoe of hills on which Simla stands. It was open to us to select either path, and certainly neither Madame Blavatsky nor Colonel Olcott had any share in the selection of that actually taken. Had we taken the other, we should never have come to the spot where we actually picnicked. [Mr. Henderson] had been a good deal with us during the week or two that had already elapsed since Madame Blavatsky?s arrival. Like many of our friends, he had been greatly impressed with much he had seen in her presence. He had especially come to the conclusion that the Theosophical Society was exerting a good influence with the natives. He had declared his intention of joining this Society as I had done myself. Now, when the cup and saucer were found most of us who were present, [Mr. Henderson] among the number, were greatly impressed, and in the conversation that ensued the idea arose that [Mr. Henderson] might formally become a member of the Society then and there. The proposal that [Mr. Henderson] should then and there formally join the Society was one with which he was quite ready to fall in. But some documents were required?a formal diploma, the gift of which to a new member should follow his initiation into certain little Masonic forms of recognition adopted in the Society. How could we get a diploma? Of course for the group then present a difficulty of this sort was merely another opportunity for the exercise of Madame?s powers. Could she get a diploma brought to us by "magic"? After an occult conversation with the Brother who had then interested himself in our proceedings, Madame told us that the diploma would be forthcoming. She described the appearance it would present?a roll of paper wound round with an immense quantity of string, and then bound up in the leaves of a creeping plant. We should find it about in the wood where we were, and we could all look for it, but it would be [Mr. Henderson], for whom it was intended, who would find it. Thus it fell out. We all searched about in the undergrowth or in the trees, wherever fancy prompted us to look, and it was [Henderson] who found the roll, done up as described. We had had our breakfast by this time. [Mr. Henderson] was formally "initiated" a member of the society by Colonel Olcott, and after a time we shifted our quarters to a lower place in the wood where there was the little Tibetan temple, or rest house. We amused ourselves by examining the little building inside and out, "bathing in the good magnetism," as Madame Blavatsky expressed it, and then, lying on the grass outside, it occurred to someone that we wanted more coffee. The servants were told to prepare some, but they had used up all our water. The water to be found in the streams near Simla is not of a kind to be used for purposes of this sort, and for a picnic, clean filtered water is always taken out in bottles. It appears that all the bottles in our baskets had been exhausted. This report was promptly verified by the servants by the exhibition of the empty bottles. The only thing to be done was to send to a brewery, the nearest building, about a mile off, and ask for water. I wrote a pencil note and a coolie went off with the empty bottles. Time passed, and the coolie returned, to our great disgust, without the water. There had been no European left at the brewery that day (it was a Sunday) to receive the note, and the coolie had stupidly plodded back with the empty bottles under his arm, instead of asking about and finding someone able to supply the required water. At this time our party was a little dispersed. [Mr. Henderson] and one of the other gentlemen had wandered off. No one of the remainder of the party was expecting fresh phenomena, when Madame suddenly got up, went over to the baskets, a dozen or twenty yards off, picked out a bottle?one of those, I believe, which had been brought back by the coolie empty?and came back to us holding it under the fold of her dress. Laughingly producing it, it was found to be full of water. Just like a conjuring trick, will someone say? Just like, except for the conditions. For such a conjuring trick, the conjurer defines the thing to be done. In our case the want of water was as unforeseeable in the first instance as the want of the cup and saucer. The accident that left the brewery deserted by its Europeans, and the further accident that the coolie sent up for water should have been so stupid to come back without, because there happened to be no European to take my note, were accidents but for which the opportunity for obtaining the water by occult agency could not have arisen. And those accidents supervened on the fundamental accident, improbable in itself, that our servants should have sent us out insufficiently supplied. That any bottle of water could have been left unnoticed at the bottom of the baskets is a suggestion that I can hardly imagine any one present putting forward, for the servants had been found at fault with for not bringing enough; they had just before had the baskets completely emptied out, and we had not submitted to the situation till we had been fully satisfied that there really was no more water left. Furthermore, I tasted the water in the bottle Madame Blavatsky produced, and it was not water of the same kind as that which came from our own filters. It was an earthy-tasting water, unlike that of the modern Simla supply, but equally unlike, I may add, though in a different way, the offensive and discolored water of the only stream flowing through those woods. How was it brought? The fact is there whether we can explain it or not. The rough, popular saying that you cannot argue the hind leg off a cow, embodies a sound reflection, which our prudent skeptics in matters of the kind with which I am now dealing are too apt to overlook. You cannot argue away a fact by contending that by the light in your mind it ought to be something different from what it is. Still less can you argue away a mass of facts like those I am now recording by a series of extravagant and contradictory hypotheses about each in turn. What the determined disbeliever so often overlooks is that the skepticism which may show an acuteness of mind up to a certain point, reveals a deficient intelligence when adhered to in face of certain kinds of evidence. [Mr. Henderson], I should add here, afterwards changed his mind about the satisfactory character of the cup phenomenon, and said he thought it vitiated as a scientific proof by the interposition of the theory that the cup and saucer might have been thrust up into their places by means of a tunnel cut from a lower part of the bank. I have discussed that hypothesis already, and mention the fact of [Mr. Henderson?s] change of opinion, which does not affect any of the circumstances I have narrated, merely to avoid the chance that readers might think I was treating the change of opinion in question as something which it was worth while to disguise. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. The Occult World. London: Trubner & Co., 1881, pp. 66?84.=20 [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant to the subject has been silently deleted. The original texts, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 39900 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:30 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvRu07424 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvPc07406 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Unit 101 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:00:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >Explain these acts. Bart, I try. You say that the slaughter of the family was not a crime as Israel considered it to be an act of war. My question is: Is the same standard of judging applicable to a similar case (if it be), when the Jews were the victims in the Third Reich? And if not, where is the difference in both cases from a theosophical, ethical point of view? This is a serious question to me. Very often one can see that equal things which happen in human history are judged different, depending of the belonging to an ideology, to a creed, to a race and it is not judged from the unity of life which makes not such discrimination. Frank. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 39924 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:30 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvQY07411 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvOc07398 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:55:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Steve: There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself state, (2) Hitler dealt with that in a manner which led to disastrous snip Frank: There is no inconsistency. Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? And who installed the Nazis in Germany? If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic. HPB reports that the plot in Russia was launched by the Rothschild bank in New York (B:CW III, 164). The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a huge bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files had many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now declared as missing. US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. Later on the alien UFO stories were created by FBI and CIA to cover up the continuance of very human research on outer space vehicles. Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that. Steve: Poland at the end of the first World War. You make it clear you would not have wanted to be on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall, so are you saying you would have been happy to be on the western side of an Atlantic wall? Frank: Yes. It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 91123 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvSf07448 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:28 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvQc07420 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c221c8$0864e140$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:40:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de ----- Original Message ----- From: "stevestubbs" To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:11 AM Subject: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Frank: "In my country there are standing 400 US atomic bombs. It has been said the US are our friends and they help us, they protect us against the evil (in the last decades it was the Rockefeller SU, who is next?). Steve:There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself (snip) Frank: As the USSR is no longer an enemy, the USA can now withdraw the atom bombs, don't? For what reason they are still here? Officially, German is regarded as a "free" (free of what?) land. Would an American call his land free if Chinese atom bomb would stand in his land? From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 56762 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:47 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvY007536 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:34 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvTc07466 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:30 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c221c8$0a5343c0$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: <14c.fd16d2e.2a482068@aol.com> <005c01c21b76$7b4670a0$d1de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020624081319.00b084a0@mail.gbronline.com> <3D17532C.E7DA33@sprynet.com> <001b01c21ec2$42ce4be0$c2de603e@captaink> <3D1C9434.AB79AFDC@sprynet.com> <003001c21fa7$1dc75f40$f7de603e@captaink> <3D1E73D7.F170FDB1@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Some words of Mahatma Gandhi on the Jews Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:32:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Bart: As I am not psychic, and cannot read minds, please enlighten me as to the thoughts of Blavatsky, Judge, and Tingley. Frank: Mmmh. OK, I close my house and turn out my phone for sixth months and write three big essays on all three theosophists. Seriously, I think you are old enough to study them for yourself and have better access in your country as I in mine to the sources. Even if I would been able to tell you all they taught, it would be only second knowledge to you and you doubts would remain. F.e. you can take the index of B:CW and take a look under Jews, Israel, Socialists, Aryan etc. There is a sentence of HPB: "The Jews handed down their black magic to the Jesuits", which seems not to be indexed and I cannot find the Vol. and page at present; it was left and above. That HPB says that the Jesuits were an Jewish enterprise makes sense from viewing other sources. Benjamin Disraeli liked to say that Christianity is Judaism for non-Jews. So the hidden vatican of the Jews may regard the outer vatican of the Christ as their exoteric mass play and it seems one time necessary for them to take over the control. When the Jesuits came into the picture, Germany was on target and they tried to rub it out as it was there were the reformation and the fight against untrue dogmas began. The remission of punishment, or the more you pay, the more God love you was invented (why does this remind on Leadbeater?), the inquisition was terrible for many free thinking people. On the Versailles treaty against Germany the Jews appeared first time as a nation on the scene and the Jewish nation (!) demanded also satisfaction from Germany which resulted in common German-Palestine projects in the 1920's. Hitler did only continue this projects and he was in no way the inventor of the Jews-go-to-Palestine policy. Interestingly, in The Theosophical Path of 1919 under Katherine Tingley there appeared some articles raising this question. The Versailles treaty and Wilson's policy (which changed quickly after he re ceived letters from the Grand Lodge of the Orient in Paris, which letters are known are printed in books) were much critized by KT. Also a subliminal warning to the Freemasons was addressed in one article of 1919. A septenary circle later, in 1926, Gottfried von Purucker (he used to spell his name in German style up to the catastrophic events on the failed new world HQ in Germany) in a book review demanded the Allied to give back German the stolen colonies, as this would be in to the interest of all. I read this demand in that sense that it would have changed the heating political atmosphere in Germany and would have Hitler give no opportunity to have success in election campaigns. Purucker writes that in every land the British occupied the culture was destroyed and the land was going down cultural and econonimal and that with the German colonies it was vice versa, they built schools, educated the people and made treaties on fair trade (the German colonies were launched by free treaties and not by soldiers, the reason why up to the present day the ex colonies demand the German to come back, which is not the case with the British). Purucker says clearly that the term Israel was never coined onto a certain race, "The Esoteric Tradition," p. 1089, Fn. 462. Richard Harte, then secretary to the Theos. Publ. Soc. in London, wrote in 1888 in his introduction to The Hebrew Talisman similar, when he discusses the "Jewish question"!! Another hint that this term in no way was an invention of the Nazis. As I wrote before even Karl Marx used this term in his 1848 article which I have before me. I believe that HPB agreed with Harte's hard views of the Jews, the Jewish question and Palestine as the so-called Promised Land. There are several instances were HPB not agreed with published opinions and wrote in turn on it. In 1888 when Harte wrote about the Jews HPB was relatively eager, but no protest ever appeared. BTW, not all the Jews may have been sure about the Promised Land question when one time they tried to launch a Jewish state on the Eastcoast of the USA, I think it was early 19th C. Harte writes: "To the theosophist, however, Jerusalem, even Judea, is not teh whole of this earth, nor this earth the whole Universe. And a higher guidance than that by human will in the case of the Jews, does not imply a monopoly of divine solicitude for one little tribe of people, nor a monopoly of power and wisdom for the celestial being who has chosen them for his special favour. If it be true that the affairs of the Jewish race are under higher guidance, then logic and justice require us to believe that asimilar guidance is vouchsafed to all mankind, and to the inhabitants of the myriad worlds that roll in space. .... Far lower in the scale of existence there are powers, personal and non-eternal, creatures who had a beginning and will have an end. Men call these lower fashioning powers collectively a personal God... Is one of these powers, the Jehovah of the ancient Hebrews, now pulling the wires that attach his peopleto him, and turning their steps towards the "promised land" once more? It is said that wealthy Jewish bankers have at this moment actual legal right of possession to Palestine, holding it in mortage from the Sultan...." Before that Harte writes: "Could anyone but a child imagine for an instant that so thoroughly practical a people as the Jews, a race, moreover, pre-eminently fond of the luxuries of life, would voluntarily abandon the various countries which centuries have been their homes, abandon their hereditary occupations, abandon civilization, and undertake the frightful labour of reclaiming a rocky and arid district, a labour from which even back-woods pioneers inured to hardship would shrink - and all for a religio-sentimental idea?" Here you have the RATIONALE why anti-semitism in Russia, Germany, Poland, Britain, France and USA was necessary. Harte speaks of a "plot" which means that human intellect directed the circumstances for psychical or sentimental purposes which are in direct opposition to the First Aim of the TS - consequently, in §5 of the controversially "Protocols" an organization is mentioned to tried to fight the plot. The Holocaust was necessary to fulfill the prophecy of Jehovah at the end of the times which was mid of the 20th Century to the Jews. There are sources that confirm that the installment of both Stalin and Hitler goes back to the Rothschild empire in New York. And what about the World Trade Center? Did it not belong to the Rockefeller direction? Does the Rockefeller clan support the religio-sentimental idea of the Promised Land in Palestine or are they "wordly" Jews who want to live in the country in which they are born? Could it be that the present crisis is in its origin also an inner Jewish crisis? The clever Jewish elite has twisted the meaning of "Revelation" in order to convince certain Christians that Jesus Christ wants them to support Israel against the Palestinians and it looks like many are falling for the "diabolical" scheme, including the Jews, who are the first victims of that dugpa spirit as Rudolf Steiner explained in 1917 in his comments on the First Zionist Congress 20 years before in 1897. Steiner also predicted that soon after 2000 the USA will try to stop free thinking in all over the world. It is been said that all the world news are spread only by five or so news agencies, so it would be an easy task to control the masses. And that all for psychical purposes. From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Jul 02 08:22:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 47438 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.110) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 15:22:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PPUC-0007u2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:22:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3D21C561.7D8AA514@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:23:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Unit 101 References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > >Explain these acts. > > Bart, I try. You say that the slaughter of the family was not a crime as > Israel considered it to be an act of war. I said nothing of the sort. All I said is that there is disagreement as to whether it should be classified as a crime or an act of war, and Israel considered it to be an act of war. At no point did I say what I considered it to be. Therefore, you are starting off from a false premise. > My question is: Is the same standard of judging applicable to a similar case > (if it be), when the Jews were the victims in the Third Reich? And if not, > where is the difference in both cases from a theosophical, ethical point of > view? And I am asking what is this "similar case"? Can you show me what documents or claims there are by Jews in Germany stating that their goal was the destruction of Germany and the destruction of the German people, as there were in the Jordanian and Palestinian communities? > This is a serious question to me. Very often one can see that equal things > which happen in human history are judged different, depending of the > belonging to an ideology, to a creed, to a race and it is not judged from > the unity of life which makes not such discrimination. Pushing an old lady out of the way of a moving car is not the same thing as a pushing an old lady into the path of a moving car, in spite of the claims of the advocates of "moral equivalency". Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Jul 02 09:35:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 53745 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 16:35:22 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A58C4806E5 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:31:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all, I agree a lot on the below Frank. Do you have a link or some documentation on this statement ?: "Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that." A view: The title of the previous email was : "Germany: to protect or not to protec= t?" And I ask against who - the Sufis ? Allright I know, I maybe am a little bit silly. Today we witness the political leadership of USA apparently getting slowly = transferred to the new expanding EU. Because of the crisis in or at the Mid= dle East and USA's position supporting the Jews, USA as an more or less agr= ressive victim for terrorists - the new EU (with Polen and other countries = coming up) will for the moment (or a longer period of time) it seems take o= n a more active role in the peacemaking, while Russia with its low finances= and internal struggles is standing on the sideline. With a new EU, which will have reinforced borders to keep so-called unwante= d foreigners from coming in - and the wanted ones - the educated ones being= allowed in. We will eventually witness a new kind of fake? Osmannic EU-kin= gdom - a sort of new twisted Cordoba or Toledo, where culture and science o= nes more can 'prosper'. Even so the socalled democratic countries of EU are struggling with interna= l problems. The many foreigners, which already lives within EU-countries su= ddenly has become a problem. They do NOT live like the ordinary average EU-= citizens, they often have a different religion Islam and worse they get MOR= E kids than they white race ! And the white race of EU wants those foreigners integrated according with T= HEIR laws (socalled non-religious ones) and THEIR average livestyle while c= laiming them or that to be better. And some of the fast children-growing fo= reigners (of islamic kind?)wants a totally different system - a religious-p= olitical system to emerge whitin EU. Well, is it not just great ? And that = in an information society. What do you readers want ? Theosophy at the sideline ?=20 A Theosophy lacking knowledge of the Middle East and the Sufis ? (Their names in the Himalaya of HPB near Afghanistan and Hindu Kush was Khw= ajagan or Khwajah (i.e. "The Master(s)") at least since the 10th century un= til today. There are still groups bearing that name. Khwajah 'Abdallah al-Ansari, an important Hanbali Sufi author and saint, di= ed in the 481 AH / 1089 AD. His tomb in Herat, Afghanistan, continues to be= an important pilgrimage site. He wrote a number of treatises in both Arabi= c and Persian.) =20 from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? > Steve: > There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it > correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR > posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself > state, (2) Hitler dealt with that in a manner which led to disastrous > snip >=20 > Frank: > There is no inconsistency. Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? > And who installed the Nazis in Germany? > If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic= . > HPB reports that the plot in Russia was launched by the Rothschild bank i= n > New York (B:CW III, 164). > The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a hug= e > bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files ha= d > many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. > After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now > declared as missing. >=20 > US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments = to > Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. > After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them > Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. Later on t= he > alien UFO stories were created by FBI and CIA to cover up the continuance= of > very human research on outer space vehicles. Top Secret US files on the > Mueller case confirm that. >=20 >=20 > Steve: > Poland at the end of the first World War. You make it clear you > would not have wanted to be on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall, > so are you saying you would have been happy to be on the western side > of an Atlantic wall? >=20 > Frank: > Yes. > It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jul 02 11:42:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 18:42:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 31070 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from pool0133.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.133] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PSbw-0000Wl-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:42:48 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:40:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 2 2002 Dear Friends: Might it not be that we actually receive in our sensorium, either physical or astral, an impact from any set of vibrations.? If so, then our individual ATTENTION has to be directed to the record made by our receptors, and then by an act of will we can decipher them -- if we have developed that detachment as well as acuity. But those may also be some of the attributes that disciples under the training of an Adept develop. The sine qua non is always, harmlessness. As I understand it, if true (or "white") Occultism, any power or faculty we may develop cannot be used for any personal benefit, but only, as an extension of our power to cooperate and to be of service (under Karma) to others. As I understand it, this requires a tremendous discrimination in the matter of what is "right" and "wrong." And I sense on the study of Theosophy that this is a fact that is emphasized repeatedly, but, not everyone seems to "get it." The lure for selfish powers which might be applied for personal benefit has a "grab" over many interested individuals. It is said that "Occultism" is neutral,. and the motive for its application makes an act, a feeling, or a thought potent for "good" or "evil." Hence the many warnings. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: C. Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:05 PM To: Subject: RE: Color and Music Maybe we are tuned into certain frequencies; some sounds are resonant and some are dissonant to our body's frequency. But, we are able to change that through conscious or subconscious tuning. Naturally we tend toward a certain behavioral pattern [quiet, or nervous, or analytical, or gregarious, or introverted] Based on these internal tendancies, we experience differences in our external environmental processing. The more familiar we are with the myriad of internal and external combinations, the more modal we become. So, people who hone an eclectic taste in music seem to have the ability to adjust what they are attuned to in music, by adjusting their mood or thought. Just a guess! From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 12:11:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 32918 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40013.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.53) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702191105.74120.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.46] by web40013.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:11:05 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Frank: "Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? My take on history was that the whole thing was rather complex. First there was the anarchist revolt against the Czar, then the disaffection of the Russian army against the mishandling of the war, then the Kerensky government, then the naval revolt, then Lenin (not to be confused with John Lennon) returning from exile in Switzerland, then the peace deal with Germany, etc. The people who benefitted were the Wilhelm government in Berlin, since they pacified their eastern front and acquired significant land from the deal with Lenin (again not to be confused with John Lennon, who had a nicer head of hair.) So if I followed the money I would say the Kaiser had a hand in it. Is that what you are getting at? Frank: "And who installed the Nazis in Germany? German politicians. He did not have a majority in the Rsichstag when he was installed chancellor. Frank: "If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic. Maybe so, but I do not see it yet. Frank: "The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a huge bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files had many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. Are you talking about the Dawes plan? Hitler threatened to hang anyone who voted for that once he took power. It carried anyway in a plebiscite and rescued the German economy from the runaway inflation of the early twenties. Unfortunately, the Wall Street crash of 1929 pulled the underpinning out from the German economy, but they did have better times from 1925 to 1929, By 1931 the German economy was again recovering and Nazi strength in the polls declining. Frank: "After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now declared as missing. I don't want to sound like a party pooper, but if your source cannot come up with an archive or manuscript number I would tend to wonder if he is being truthful. There were anyway all sorts of conspiracy theories in Germany in the twenties involving bankers. That does not mean they were true. Frank: "US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. There was a theory at one time that if countries became intertwined by economic ties the threat of war would be greatly reduced. That theory did not play out in practice. Frank: "After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. True that some SS intelligence people were employed after the war, but I am skeptical that Mueller built the CIA or even survived the conflict. It is also extremely unlikely that he would have been employed at such a high level in such a secretive agency. He was pushed out of the way when Himmler took over the Gestapo from the Interior Ministry and incorporated it into the SS, and that was long before the war started. After that he was pretty much a nonentity. Ditto with his boss Goering, who was marginalized more and more as time wore on. He ended up on heroin, was almost assassinated by the SS, etc. According to the memoir of Hans Gisevius, entitled TO THE BITTER END, Mueller's own men were constantly trying to assassinate him while he still had power. He left the office every night walking warily down the back stairs, his back to the wall and a loaded pistol in his hand. Being Gestapo chief was a real bitch of a job. Frank: "It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. Then you must agree that the existence of such a sector served your interest, which means you must think it was in your interest that the westward expansion of the Soviet empire was halted by the postwar security arrangements. After 1952 Germany played an important role in those very arrangements, although they had the geographical misfortune of being on the front line of any battle that might break out. With the development of ICBMs the entire western world became a front line. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 12:15:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 40923 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40017.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.57) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.46] by web40017.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:15:36 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do ten people a movement make? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs The following from THE JERUSALEM POST: Israeli Muslims launch opposition to Islamists LAUREN GELFOND Jul. 1, 2002 Ten Muslims from villages in the Galilee have launched the first Orthodox Muslim movement in the region to oppose Muslim militancy and extremism. Calling themselves The Prophetic Tradition Helpers Association (PTHA), their goals include providing a platform for moderation and nonviolence and educating the Muslim public about how extremists are misinterpreting Orthodox Islam. "We have watched the situation deteriorate at the hands of extremists," said Khalid Abu Ras of Ilut, near Nazareth, an Arabic teacher and founding member. "We are unhappy that they talk in the name of Islam, and we think their stands are wrong. They are hurting Islam and our people." The group is the first to publish an anti-extremist essay in Arabic from a religious point of view. A recent op-ed in the Arabic daily Al-Ayn told a parable of warring brothers in ancient times who learned to build bridges instead of fences. It went on to explain Islamic teachings that urge tolerance, dialogue, nonviolence, and moderation. Another essay is scheduled to run in Al-Ayn today, citing Sunni scholars who forbid the widespread use of the word heretic being used to discredit those Muslims who hold moderate ideas. The group is working to publish other documents in Arabic and plans to hold talks in Arab villages across Israel. "People think all Muslims are the same, but they are wrong. So many people disagree with the extremists, but they have nowhere to speak. We want to give them a voice," Abu Ras said. PTHA stands apart from those Muslims included on a list of Palestinians who published an ad in mid-June opposing terror attacks, saying they undermine Palestinian aspirations. Rather than focusing on political efficacy, PTHA looks at extremist activities through a moral lens, based on what they call misunderstood Koranic tradition. "They base their approach on solid religious text," said Yehuda Stolov, the Orthodox Jewish director of the Interfaith Encounter Association. "They are combating negative attitudes that come out of Islam from within. That gives them a lot of strength that other groups don't have." Although PTHA will also focus on developing relations with Jewish and Christian groups, like dozens of Muslims involved in interfaith and coexistence activities here, it is the only such group to be Muslim-based and founded, with a primary focus on internal dialogue, education, and change in Muslim society. Rabbi Dov Maimon, who is familiar with the group, described its launch as an "intellectual war" against extremism. "We never imagined such an effort. It is very real, very impressive, very brave, and for them, very dangerous." Rabbi Shmuel Slotsky also supports the groups' efforts but is more cautious. "It seems like a drop in the sea. But I hope it helps they are a good group of people and we must support them." Among the group's founders are nine men, including a journalist, a Sufi sheikh, educators, and merchants, and one woman, a homemaker. They claim supporters across Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel, and the US. "I have more than 100 students and imams who study Islam with me and support our ideas from a religious point of view," says Sheikh Abdel al-Salaam Menasra of Nazareth. "We agree that we have to be moderate not hard-hearted, that we have to understand the other, that we must speak out for what we believe and not sell ourselves. Now we are working to spread the word." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Jul 02 12:37:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:37:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 5433 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tisch.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.157) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:37:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PTTA-0004pp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:37:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:38:26 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Do ten people a movement make? References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Calling themselves The Prophetic Tradition Helpers > Association (PTHA), their goals include providing a > platform for moderation and nonviolence and educating > the Muslim public about how extremists are > misinterpreting Orthodox Islam. I have a number of Muslim friends, who all have been saying pretty much the same thing. Do I wish there were more like them on both sides of the conflict. By the way, on an unrelated note, I finally read some information that puts the Jonathan Pollard case into perspective. Apparently, he and his wife came out with a lot of public, anti-American statements in between his guilty plea and sentencing, which alienated not only the prosecution, but his own lawyer. So, when the prosecution illegally voided the plea bargain, his lawyer purposely sabotaged his case by not filing the appeal in the legally required time (and, in what is truly a case of an unjust law, there is NO excuse that is legally acceptable for filing an appeal late, even if it is the result of criminal collusion between the prosecution and the defense). In other words, Jonathan Pollard got a life sentence not because of anti-Semitism or secret agendas, but because of a combination of technicalities in the law and the fact that he was a first-class jerk. While this information comes from his current lawyer, I find this MUCH more believable than any of the other stories I have heard. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 14:35:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 3009 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40008.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.26) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702213507.20955.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.159] by web40008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:35:07 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c221c8$0864e140$c7de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > As the USSR is no longer an enemy, the USA > can now withdraw the atom > bombs, don't? > For what reason they are still here? I do not know why they are still there. I do know that Germany can evict NATO forces just as the French did if they deem that the presence of such forces is no longer essential to providing national security. Perhaps they think the situation to the east is still unstable, which is a reasonable perception. You'll have to ask your politicians. Henry Kissinger (who was originally a German) believed it unwise for Germany to develop a nuclear arsenal of its own because that would (he believed) lead to a new Hitler. Maybe that opinion is shared by German policy makers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 16:35:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 23:35:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 43173 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40002.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.20) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702233524.21698.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.74] by web40002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:35:24 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Do ten people a movement make? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > I have a number of Muslim friends, who all have > been saying pretty much > the same thing. Do I wish there were more like them > on both sides of the > conflict. If it is not true, as some imams have instructed us, that Islam requires its followers to slaughter the infidel, then it is the responsibility of those who know better to enlighten the rest of us, including non Muslims. By doing so they serve their own interest as well as ours. As for the Palestinian Arabs, it is apparent at this point the ONLY way they can serve their own legitimate self interest is by forming an alliance with the Palestinian Jews. What is regrettably less clear to a lot of people is that the converse is also true. As for Pollard, though, I thought he was simply a spy and reaped the reward of spying and getting caught. People who are entrusted with secret information are briefed with fire and brimstone lectures before any information is given to them, so there is no way he can reasonably say he was unaware that what he was doing was imprisonable. The religious argument he and his wife advanced is mooted by the fact that he was clearly motivated by money. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Tue Jul 02 22:08:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 90666 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.30) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from [169.197.11.247] by mail.san.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:07:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:07:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3D0E4FB90000EDDC@mta07.san.yahoo.com> Subject: H.P. Blavatsky's Major Works To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell H.P. Blavatsky's Major Works One can read various and often conflicting interpretations of Madame Blavatsky's teachings, but the best way to understand and appreciate H.P.B.'s views and teachings is to actually read and study her books. For various editions of Madame Blavatsky's major works, see: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/bookstore.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. =20 From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 07:47:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 49916 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 14:47:55 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.91.52] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id AE3D97A4004A; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:46:21 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:47:47 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 At 06:31 PM 7/2/02 +0200, Morten Sufilight wrote: >Theosophy at the sideline ? Right question. In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. May be it is time for theosophists to stand up and do what they can to alleviate those suffering masses. This can be done concurrent with other studies and discussions and spiritual practices. mkr From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 07:54:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 28014 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.91.52] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id AFAF67640070; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:52:31 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703095104.00a38420@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:53:58 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Pollard In-Reply-To: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 One day at a future date, we all will find out why in spite of all the attempts by various Political Leaders of Government of Israel at the highest levels, no one was able to get Pollard released from Prison. At 03:38 PM 7/2/02 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > By the way, on an unrelated note, I finally read some information > that >puts the Jonathan Pollard case into perspective. Apparently, he and his >wife came out with a lot of public, anti-American statements in between >his guilty plea and sentencing, which alienated not only the >prosecution, but his own lawyer. So, when the prosecution illegally >voided the plea bargain, his lawyer purposely sabotaged his case by not >filing the appeal in the legally required time (and, in what is truly a >case of an unjust law, there is NO excuse that is legally acceptable for >filing an appeal late, even if it is the result of criminal collusion >between the prosecution and the defense). In other words, Jonathan >Pollard got a life sentence not because of anti-Semitism or secret >agendas, but because of a combination of technicalities in the law and >the fact that he was a first-class jerk. While this information comes >from his current lawyer, I find this MUCH more believable than any of >the other stories I have heard. From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:02:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 12108 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hall.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.60) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:02:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PleF-0001nd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231229.6F22FF47@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:03:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues > relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which > were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. Theosophists still do. The Theosophical Society never did. According to to Blavatsky, the only position that the Theosophical Society should take in politics is to increase the level of understanding between opposing sides (which I have been active in doing in the New York Lodge; for example, last year, I gave a lecture, "Reuniting a Divided Nation", where I pointed out that well-intentioned liberals and conservatives had much the same goals, the differences were in what they considered the best way of achieving these, and that the major conflicts were caused by outspoken members of both sides who had hidden, selfish agendas that they were pushing, hidden under supposed solutions to problems (such as Rush Limbaugh's "How do I make 'I got mine, everybody else can go to hell' sound like fairness" agenda, or Hillary Clinton's "How can I make a health system maximize the government's control of the individual?" agenda). Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:10:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 86028 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blount.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.226) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Pllt-0006rm-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:10:22 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231403.A26DF79@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:10:59 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.2.20020703095104.00a38420@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > One day at a future date, we all will find out why in spite of all the > attempts by various Political Leaders of Government of Israel at the > highest levels, no one was able to get Pollard released from Prison. A good question, which deserves a good answer. Because he was offered a good deal by the government, and, after taking the deal, he figuratively spit in their face and publicly embarrassed them. By going public after making the deal, he also caused great embarrassment to Israel. In addition, Jews in high places in government are dead set against showing him any clemency, because his actions succeeded in putting the loyalty of every Jew in high-security positions in question. Which means that the only way he is going to be freed is not through mercy but through justice, through the fact that everybody, no matter how much we might like or dislike them, should be considered equal under the law. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Jul 03 08:23:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 2675 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40004.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.233.213] by web40004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:23:43 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D231403.A26DF79@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Which means that the only way he is > going to be freed is > not through mercy but through justice, through the > fact that everybody, > no matter how much we might like or dislike them, > should be considered > equal under the law. That statement confuses me. Why should Pollard, a confessed spy who was motivated entirely by money greed, be treated differently than Aldrich Ames or John Walker or any other spy who did the same thing for identical reasons? It appears from here that he has in fact received precisely equal treatment in the sense of getting an equal outcome. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:47:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 25717 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PmME-0001aN-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:47:54 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231CCF.930E1D16@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:48:31 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard References: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Which means that the only way he is > > going to be freed is > > not through mercy but through justice, through the > > fact that everybody, > > no matter how much we might like or dislike them, > > should be considered > > equal under the law. > > That statement confuses me. Why should Pollard, a > confessed spy who was motivated entirely by money > greed, be treated differently than Aldrich Ames or > John Walker or any other spy who did the same thing > for identical reasons? It appears from here that he > has in fact received precisely equal treatment in the > sense of getting an equal outcome. Because he made a plea bargain, which was legally binding, which the prosecution and judge illegally voided, without giving Pollard a chance to change his plea. The only reason why the decision wasn't overturned immediately was because there was a 10 day deadline to appeal, and Pollard's own lawyer sabotaged the case by deliberately failing to file the appeal. Bart Lidofsky From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 39321 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63GscQ31156 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:51 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn0c30590 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:00 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c222b1$8d441400$f9de603e@captaink> To: Subject: Purucker says that Israel is not limited to the Jews Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:42:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Verily so; and if we are to take the witness of the New Testament of the Christians themselves, Jesus the Avatara came only unto the enlightening and saving of the Jews themselves; for as it is stated unequivocally in the Gospel According to Matthew, xv, 24: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel." If this statement was inspired by the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Christian Trinity, as the orthodox among Christians formerly used positively to state, then how shall we explain that it was precisely by the Jews that he was rejected, and became accepted in the West and in the West alone, and by the peoples unto whom it is stated that he did not come? Is it not evident, if we are to give any weight to this passage from Matthew, that an avataric influence descending into the murk and mire of earthly affairs brings a message for all mankind, and that, precisely as Theosophy has always stated, 'the lost sheep of Israel' do not signify the Jews alone, but the phrase is an expression taken directly from the Hither Asian Mysteries, based on Jewish thought in this instance, that 'Israel' does not mean the Jews alone but the Children of Saturn and the Earth, and that the divine influence comes to aid those of its 'children' who are 'lost' -- i.e., those who have need of a new spiritual and intellectual inspiration? Is the idea, therefore, not identic with that which is put into the mouth of Krishna, the Hindu Avatara in the Bhagavad-Gita, where he says that he comes from age to age in order to right wrongs, overthrow evil, inspirit the good, and rescue the down-trodden, spiritually speaking? The point of this footnote is for the reader or student to remember that the Gospels of the Christian religion imbodied a Mystery-Story and therefore can be construed properly only in the light of the archaic Mystery-teaching." - Gottfried de Purucker: The Esoteric Tradition, p. 1091, Fn. 462. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8629 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63Gsca31150 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:51 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn2c30606 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:02 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c222b1$8e477a40$f9de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020702213507.20955.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:51:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >I do not know why they are still there. I do know >that Germany can evict NATO forces just as the French Seems you are a big optimist. Actually Germany was forced in the so-called 2-4 treaty with the Allied to continue its occupation and pay all the costs to its aggressors. >Perhaps they think the situation to the east is still >unstable, which is a reasonable perception. You'll >have to ask your politicians. It is to be expected that I would get an answer as much intelligent as if you would as your politicians why the last poll was a fake to bring the war fraction a la Huntington to the red button. >Henry Kissinger (who was originally a German) believed >it unwise for Germany to develop a nuclear arsenal of >its own because that would (he believed) lead to a new >Hitler. Maybe that opinion is shared by German policy >makers. Good that you quote this big mass murder. Now I know well what the clock has stroke and that you are a supporter of the anti-theosophical Huntington ideology. BTW, today there appeared a official warning from Mark Burman (who is a Jew and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic politician Lyndon LaRouche) in Germany that the American oligarchic establishment to produce a new 9/11 within the next days, perhaps on Independence Day. Frank From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 11744 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63Gsb131140 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:52 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn3c30612 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:03 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c222b1$8f433f60$f9de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020702191105.74120.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:50:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >My take on history was that the whole thing was rather >complex. First there was the anarchist revolt against >the Czar, then the disaffection of the Russian army Right. The Socialists were paid by the Rothschilds as HPB explains. They also paid Marx and Hitler. >The people who benefitted were the Wilhelm government >in Berlin, since they pacified their eastern front and >acquired significant land from the deal with Lenin One could say (I do it not) you are speaking like a Nazi as that was actually the rationale for the Nazis to persecute the Jews as Wilhelm has had many Jews in top positions and it is said that it was they who made the plot. Wilhelm later affirmed that form his Holland exile. But the fact that Lenin was helped by the Jews in Wilhelms administration and by Ludendorff whom Hitler accused publicly to be a member of a Masonic Lodge does not contradict HPB's statement that the Jews paid and ruled the socialistic movement in Russia and Germany. >nicer head of hair.) So if I followed the money I >would say the Kaiser had a hand in it. Is that what >you are getting at? Agreed. The Kaiser, or rather his Jewish councellors and secretaries and Ludendorff had a hand in it. But Rothschild in New York was the master player in that plot. >>Frank: "And who installed the Nazis in Germany? >German politicians. He did not have a majority in the >Rsichstag when he was installed chancellor. And no one in the USA has had anything to do with it? No one in New York who gave Hitler the money? >Are you talking about the Dawes plan? Hitler No. I am talking about the payment Hitler and his party get from New York bankers, I am not talking about what the land or the government get back. As Germany as the victim had to pay to the winners the land was bankrupt mid 1920's and the Dawes plan was an idea to give Germany a part of its stolen money back for fair rates. The Prussian officials have had documents about 150 million Reichmark the Nazi party got from NY bankers, it would today perhaps be $1 billiard or so. When Hitler was installed - and it was an installment - with the help of a foreign country the insiders who knew who paid Hitler and who installed him had to flee to Switzerland. Of course the Nazis searched them and some were assassinated. But the Abegg files were duplicated and survived, but are ignored by offical historians as with this information the whole cardhouse a official history would break. End of 1932 the situations was very bad. He was out of money, in the last polls he has lost many voters, in the last alone over 2 million voters and the Prussian goverment was persecuting him because of launching a plot. So it was high time to install him or the point of no return was soon over. Had the Prussian goverment imprisoned him as they were in attempt to do he would be away for many many years and not only for some months as in the gamey former Bavarian imprisonment. So on Jan. 4, 1933 the deciding meeting happened: Hitler met with von Papen, the pro Israel banker Schroeder (agent of the Warburg clan) and John Foster Dulles, who became later US foreign secretary and his brother Alles became chief of the CIA. Dulles was paying also the fascist movement in Italy and became chief lawyer of the IG Farben. On Jan. 30, Hitler was installed and all people who knew of this meeting and other details of his hidden masters were killed, among them Otto Strasser in the night of the long knives 6/30 1934. In 1945 on the Potsdam conference Prussia was officiall slaughtered as the war aims were reached with Hitler's help. In the Nuremburg trials - one of the biggest hoaxes and crimes on Humanity - only second and third line people and innocents were sentenced and all the insiders who knew more about the Jewish-Nazi cooperation were hanged. Gestapo chief Mueller and others were going to USA to work for Truman. So, actually the policy before, during and after the war has never changed. And no mention is made today of the men in the Prussian government who tried to stop the plot. In no resistance festival they are mentioned. By the way, it was as early as in 1921 when Hitler in his young party was alleged to be an agent of Jewish organziations. All those people died. >I don't want to sound like a party pooper, but if your >source cannot come up with an archive or manuscript >number I would tend to wonder if he is being truthful. Do think I ran around the world through all public archives to check whether the documents are there? If you cannto accept any information which has no archive number I wonder f.e. whether you accept the Holocaust as many if not most of the facts which are commonly be accpted by average historians and in school book are not documented. I don't know what was going on with the Abegg files. All people who knew about it were killed by Hitler and after 1945 by the Amercians and/or Jews. >There were anyway all sorts of conspiracy theories in >Germany in the twenties involving bankers. That does >not mean they were true. But it does also not mean they were untrue. HPB supports that idea. And for example the Rothshild cheque to Marx (who wrote an article on the Jews who would today be considered as Nazi) is in the possession of the British Museum in London. But I have no archive number. >> General Motors or Ford sold >>many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at >>least up to 1942. >There was a theory at one time that if countries >became intertwined by economic ties the threat of war >would be greatly reduced. That theory did not play >out in practice. The weapons you sell to Germany the more peace you have in Germany? Strange US logic! No wonder, that we have had over 200 wars since 1945. But I hope at least the New York shareholders are satisfied. >True that some SS intelligence people were employed >after the war, but I am skeptical that Mueller built >the CIA or even survived the conflict. It is also >extremely unlikely that he would have been employed at >such a high level in such a secretive agency. He was >pushed out of the way when Himmler took over the >Gestapo from the Interior Ministry and incorporated it >into the SS, and that was long before the war started. Rofl. Check your sources. Every one knows that Mueller lived at least up to 1945. Himmler made Mueller Gestapo chief and he was it until 1945. Every oligarchy historians affirms you that fact. I never heard the idiotic ida that Himmler pushed Mueller away. Perhaps you intermix him with Schellenberg who worked for the enemy. And the SS as a party organization was incoporated into the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and not vice versa. Why should a government incorporate its biggest administration with 50,000 or more coworkers into a party organizations? And that during a war? There are Americans and Germans who met and talked with Mueller in the 1960's, for example in South Africa, and he looked very alive. Author Gregory Douglas who published up to know four books on the US Mueller files (the books are banned in Germany, which means that they are true) also met him and he published a nice mid 1960's photo from him. Seems you are lacking from basic information on the case and that makes it not easy to go beyond official lines. If one is satisfied with the official versions, why not watch CNN and be happy? >Then you must agree that the existence of such a >sector served your interest, which means you must >think it was in your interest that the westward >expansion of the Soviet empire was halted by the >postwar security arrangements. After 1952 Germany Really? And me thought that Eisenhower stopped the US army for over a month in Italy and nevertheless the US army was in Saxony before the Red Army. Later they exchanged the West part of Berlin with the GDR territory. Seems rather they supported the expansion of the Soviets... Frank From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 03 11:25:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 18:25:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19475 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from pool0356.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.189.101] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Poox-0006ms-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:25:43 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 2 2002 Re: SKANDHAS -- What are they ? Are they necessary ? Dear Larry and Friends: Seeking for a "purpose" is what our minds always desire to put in a perspective we can understand. SKANDHA The word "skandha" is a Sanskrit word and includes several ideas: As I have learned, it is a stage in the education of the eternal Monad. They have progressed through the "kingdoms" of nature until they become of special use to the" human MONAD" which is itself progressing towards Perfection. The Human Monad apparently attracts to itself certain monads of lesser experience which become (because of their own evolution) able to bear the impress of human feelings and thoughts. The impact of the thoughts and feelings of a Human Mind, imposes the action of the Law of Karma -- and thus these monads, being so impressed, become the "vehicles," or "carriers" of the kind of Karma related to that Individual who first generated it and imposed it on them. This is not unusual, as it is all part of the chain of experience which every Monad has to pass through. We much earlier went through a similar phase. We, as Monads that THINK ( MINDS, MANASES), are independent and free. The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge imposes responsibilities on us because of the KNOWLEDGE we have gained. If we do not grasp or understand these duties and responsibilities the choices we make as we live from moment to moment, and day to day, makes of our "personality" [ the aggregate of the Monads of lesser experience which provide us with our lower vehicles ( body, and its cause, the astral body, prana, Kama and Lower Manas ) ] either an intelligent chooser, or an ignoramus who chooses by whim and pleasure, having no thought of future consequences. If we look closely at the memories of our choices we will see that we seem to vibrate between these two extremes. What does Theosophy do ? it provides us with the information and the rationale of the whole system. The word "Skandha," in translation is said to be "attributes." All attributes are impressions made on the plastic substance of the Monads; and in so accepting this, they become a part of the Karmic trail of the particular Monad to which they are for the time being attached. But let us look into this rationale that Theosophy presents. It makes the whole of Nature and her hidden ways reasonable and coherent. MONAD Suppose we start with the basic idea that the Monads represent a portion of SPIRIT and of MATTER that are so closely intertwined and joined that they are inseparable. UNIVERSE Can you imagine an endless UNIVERSE ( H P B in the 1st Fundamental uses the words: "a boundless plain." ) At that point one might wonder how else we could express this ? We are so limited by finality and boundaries. MEMORY For example: Our birth we do not know as a memory. Yet our existence demonstrates logically its event. The study of physiology and embryology give us an outline of the physical process of foetal development. Not being trained in those areas we accept the diagrams and explanations as true. In other words we adopt the statements made by AUTHORITY. There are dozens of other memories and explanations that we have accepted and adopted because of the same reasons. We have not studied, we then take the short-cut of accepting the authoritative statements of others who we presume are qualified. Most of us do not know =, for instance< what it takes to make the motor of a car move. The mix of gasoline, air, electricity and water combined in the various passages and parts of a compression-ignition engine are quite a mystery, until we sit down and study the diagrams that explain these. We can then go out to the car, open the hood and examine the parts there that relate to what we have read about or seen in the diagrams. AUTHORITY and WISDOM I am trying to show that we accept without examination many things on "authority." This does not mean we cannot find the necessary texts and guides that will explain and illustrate many of those things. But lets get back to the Monads and see if they play a part in this. A UNIVERSE OF MONADS Theosophy states that the Monads are eternal and immutable, changeless points of life. Our Whole Universe is made up of these. The numbers are staggering if we think of "atoms". molecules," "cells," and the vast complexity of living relationships becomes incomprehensible if we think for a moment of that which physicists call "sub-atomic particles." The UNIVERSE is EMBODIED CONSCIOUSNESS Theosophy avers that these are "points of life." They are eternal and immortal. One of their qualities is that they represent also a UNIT OF CONSCIOUSNESS. No matter how small, or how unimportant (in size) or in potential they may seem, they are the remote "building blocks" of the Universe. [ Lets remember always that each Monad is a small replica of the vast UNIVERSAL MONAD. It has the same potencies and potentials of its "parent." ] UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- IMMORTALS SEEK WISDOM Theosophy teaches that the evolution of all units is one of the purposes of the existence of the Universe and the continual interaction of all of these points of LIFE. The KINGDOMS OF NATURE -- GRADUATED EXPERIENCE FOR ALL It traces an unbroken chain of evolution starting with the undifferentiated "monadic essence" to the individual monads. From there it traces their progress through the "elemental" kingdoms (as the currents and forces of Nature) to their "immetalization." The Monads working through all kinds of mineral conditions, builds into its memory and widening consciousness every aspect of these many kinds of elements and the compounds that they form in working or fighting together. This process then moves to the vegetable kingdom, [ some call them at this stage the "Vegetable Monad"] and after aeons spent in gaining all experience there, the immortal Monads now pass on to the animal kingdom [ where they are sometimes designated the "animal Monads"]. There again the whole process of experience, experiment, participation and the gaining of "instinct" proceeds. These "instincts" are variously described, some deal with self-preservation, others with the help and parenting of offspring, still others manifest as the cunning needed to prey upon other animals, or to limit one's diet to vegetables, or meats. Some show an innate sagacity in regard to herbs and their curative powers, other aspects of instinct relate to home building, protection against heat or cold, concealment, advertising, etc., etc., -- all aspects of the emotional, instinctive, desire or aversion nature. Enmities and friendships are clearly marked and certain qualities are almost human in their attention to others and care for them -- a kind of love, and friendship that has no limits or boundaries. Behavioral psychology deals with and analyses these. TIME SCALES -- Confusion of numbers and Aeons Manvantaras may be spent (in our concept of time) in these processes. But that is not important as we are dealing with the education of immortals and eternals. Every experience leaves a memory etched forever in the inner consciousness of each MONAD. We see little evidence of this, when we investigate and peer into the nature of the animals, vegetables, minerals -- and we seem to have few clues as to the nature of the "elementals." [ ISIS UNVEILED is full of interesting evidence concerning the elementals, their existence and powers all around us. ] HUMANITY -- MIND - MONADS We now come to ourselves: the human kingdom. Here is the same deathless Monad (with its long train of inherent memories) is faced with a new development in Nature's vast program. Its school changes to a consideration of the mental qualities, their nature, growth, potential. In ourselves all the various memories and qualities, instincts aversions and other qualities are brought to a focus under the light of a MIND. NO ISOLATION IN NATURE But that is not the only considerations. and here is where your question arises: Do we not continually use the "little lives" or Monads of lesser experience in framing our bodies? are not our experiences a part of their education and become part of their immortal memories ? Theosophy says that no part of Nature is ever totally isolated. It is reasonable to think therefore that one of the pressing duties of the Human Monad is the education and care for its "younger brothers" -- the Monads that are coming up through the ranks and experience by experience developing their own unique consciousness ? THE ELDERS, THE WISE ASSIST THE YOUNGER AND INEXPERIENCED This idea of the elder assisting the younger, is one that transcends all boundaries, such as we employ in analysis today. It deals with the idea of total participation. We are "our brothers keepers." We preserve their integrity and assist in their development. We, the elders, become the servants of the youngsters, and this is an eternal process. So the Great Adepts assist and help us towards a total comprehension of the life process. That help is embodied in the philosophy of Theosophy. LIGHTING UP OF MANAS The process of "Lighting up of the Mind" is one that occurred many million years ago for the human race. ( S D I 150 fn says over 18,000,000 years ) . We see this occur every time in a family as the young ones gradually acquire the mind faculties through their daily contact with parents, and other elders. Full independence is usually given a period of 21 years for maturation. Obviously one cannot learn everything in a single life through a single personality -- an organism that supports the mind on this Earth. Since the Monad now a MIND-MONAD will undergo many experiences in which instinct, imagination, thought, and intuition become adjusted, the concept of many incarnations in successive bodies is seen to be relevant, possible and actually does occur. I hope this gives some idea of the scope of Theosophy. all these points will be found in The SECRET DOCTRINE and in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- this is only a condensed version. Best wishes, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:38 PM To: B N Subject: RE: Color and Music Thanks to Gopi, Dallas and Christina for the additional feedback on color and music. Yes Gopi, I see that what I posted consisted of opposites. Dualism pervades all our thoughts. Getting beyond that is a worthy goal but not always that easy. You write of the feeling of unconditional love. Then we see things for what the really are. All the illusion of Maya disappears. This must be what Paul alluded to when he wrote of now seeing through a glass darkly but then face to face. Dal, as usual that was a most illuminating couple of posts. You really put this all in the proper perspective!. So it is the lower self at work here, with caries over from previous lives through the skandhas. So that's WHAT happens. But WHY does it happen at all? Why do we feel the need to categorize everything like this? Christina writes of vibrations within us. Is this part of it? Do we set ourselves up to resonate a certain way so that certain types of music feel harmonious with our very beings? How do we then progress to the state Gopi writes of? Again, this has been a very productive topic, and as usual, I'm trying to squeeze the most out of it I can. this seems like a microcosm for something much larger! Larry From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Jul 03 13:02:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 20:01:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 85266 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40011.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.29) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.196] by web40011.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:01:34 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000b01c222b1$8e477a40$f9de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > BTW, today there appeared a official warning from > Mark Burman (who is a Jew > and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic > politician Lyndon > LaRouche) in Germany It may not be apparent from Germany, but Lyndon Larouche is a well known nut case. I missed something somewhere. Who is Huntington? My memory of the events may be inaccurate, but I thought when Himmlet pushed Goering out of the way and took over the Gestapo Mueller was dismissed. I read a memoir by one of Mueller's people named Gisevius wgo went out of his way to say that he was an agent in Mueller's Gestapo and not Himmler's Gestapo. Sort of like saying you joined the Hell's Angels, but that Sonny Barger was already in jail at the time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 13:44:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 43555 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 20:44:15 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.90.94] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A1C19E1B004A; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:42:41 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703153443.031b9e40@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:38:12 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard In-Reply-To: <3D231CCF.930E1D16@sprynet.com> References: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 At 11:48 AM 7/3/02 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >The only reason why the decision wasn't overturned >immediately was because there was a 10 day deadline to appeal, and >Pollard's own lawyer sabotaged the case by deliberately failing to file >the appeal. In Texas, I have seen cases where the law license has been suspended when lawyers in criminal cases missed a critical deadline. I wonder if any disciplinary action was taken on the lawyer. Unless the Bar is leinient in the East Coast, I am sure that by now the lawyer's law license would have been suspended. It would be interesting to know of any developments in this angle. mkr From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 14:38:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 21:38:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 70126 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Prpg-0002ex-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:38:41 -0400 Message-ID: <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:39:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > BTW, today there appeared a official warning from > > Mark Burman (who is a Jew > > and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic > > politician Lyndon > > LaRouche) in Germany > > It may not be apparent from Germany, but Lyndon > Larouche is a well known nut case. And felon; he spent time in jail for credit card fraud. Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jul 03 16:55:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 16741 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 23:55:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2002 23:55:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:55:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Reitemeyer on Mueller and Douglas Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000c01c222b1$8f433f60$f9de603e@captaink> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 954 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.247 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank Reitemeyer wrote: "Every one knows that Mueller lived at least up to 1945. Himmler made Mueller Gestapo chief and he was it until 1945. Every oligarchy historians affirms you that fact. . . . There are Americans and Germans who met and talked with Mueller in the 1960's, for example in South Africa, and he looked very alive. Author Gregory Douglas who published up to know four books on the US Mueller files (the books are banned in Germany, which means that they are true) also met him and he published a nice mid 1960's photo from him. Seems you are lacking from basic information on the case and that makes it not easy to go beyond official lines. If one is satisfied with the official versions, why not watch CNN and be happy?" One might want to COMPARE what Frank writes above with, for example, the following review of one of Douglas' books on Mueller: See http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p40_Douglas.html Daniel Caldwell From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 03 17:13:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 00:13:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 13732 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from pool0598.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.20.88] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PuFh-0003a1-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:13:41 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:11:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 3 2002 The force of Thought underlies all Music, sound and words. The motive when we generate them determines their value. Dear Friends: The impact of choice is a universal and automatic impression made of the surroundings. Those surroundings consist of "monads" in evolution. We call them by their appearance: minerals, vegetables, animals, humans, etc... The components of these gross forms are living monads -- points of life. These are the "eternal pilgrims." The concept of the immortal monad as a "pilgrim" is yet to be recognized. Science however posits the eternal (perpetual) motion of those atoms and their components. Theosophy goes a step deeper and says that those are indestructible and that their progress is ever forward towards a higher kind of consciousness, a greater awareness of their environment and a learning of their own powers (as integral parts of the whole Universe). Our choice is always a deliberate one, hence we make an impress, however light, on our surroundings. This aspect of interactive life is yet to be generally recognized. If we listen solely for our pleasure the impression is of that purpose. Is it selfish? We alone can answer that, because we alone determine our MOTIVES. All sounds and vibrations carry a force. Science demonstrates this. Words are framed by MINDS. They carry this additional force. ( Try listening to a good speaker or a bad one. Listen to a good singer or a bad one.) The impact on us depends also on our understanding of the nature of sound, music, poetry, rhythms, and MEANINGS. In time they attenuate and may fade away. But the original impact always remains dormant in every part of that energy that expands through the Universe. We may not be aware of those vibrations, but that does not mean they do not exist and produce some effect on us and on others. We participate when we listen. We can refuse to listen, and shut out the sounds. We generate potential effects when we act, be it in receiving or in generating, song, or in writing, or anyway. We are responsible for those potential effects. Those who receive and then consider them with their MINDS, assume a certain responsibility in doing so. We allow, or debar, the effect of music, words, etc... depending on our understanding of them and the effects they convey to us. This can be proved any time by carefully examining the effect on us of such stimuli. The use of swear words in conversation conveys a carelessness and an indifference to the refinements of thought. They are expressions of emotion, however careless or casual. They simply indicate we are faced with an individual who is adolescent, or even childish, and one who has not realized the importance of thinking. He or she is unable to express themselves intelligently. The have yet to learn to think and use words that have meaning. Wee are then looking at an emotional wreck fit only for the language of the lowest aspects of humanity -- the crude, the rude, the careless, the boorish, the tyrant, and the fool. Who desires extensive contact with those ? I would say it is indicative of the general counter-tendency in the world: to dumb people down. To prevent them thinking and asking intelligent questions. To encourage reliance on amusement and pleasure as the only basis for living. If the majority of humanity can be kept at a kamic (desire and passion) level of life then they can be all the more easily manipulated. To what end does a life of emotionalism lead? What is there that is inspiring there? Do we treasure the biographies of idiots or of Sages? What makes the difference ? Is a Caesar Borgia respected, or a Solomon? Do we pay honor to Machiavelli, or to Jesus who tried to reform a whole tribe ? Most of us, for instance read or listen to the "news." It is a selection of high spots, usually the evils and the horrors of life are recounted or made visual. Why this fascination with the extremes? Why this desire for unintelligent emotionalism? Each ought to answer this for themselves. Theosophy presents us with the concept of a totally interactive and vibrating universe in which life's experiences always add to a greater capacity to understand the root causes of all events. Most care nothing for those. For them the unimagined and indistinct future is an area of continuous surprise, and wonder. If their fancies are magnified, then they believe they are being entertained. But who recalls the movies or news of say, a month ago in any detail ? Who draws the lessons from history and its unrolling? who looks on their daily participation as important? Who envisages for themselves a truly viable and useful future ? As you suggest most of us use words without considering their potential effect. Can this be changed now that our attention is drawn to this fact ? Finally, in my esteem, the whole panorama of our life is determined by our purpose. I is to be one of greatness and of assistance? Or is it to be one of selfish isolation ? Each none determines this for themselves. Which is the more valuable ? Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: chris Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:41 AM To: blavatsky.net Subject: RE: Vibrations, Color and Music Is it then, a matter of what you make of it? Is choosing to listen to music something that may be inderectly selfish? This is way over my head... Now I can ask this as well: on the subject of sounds and language, words...do they only carry the amount of force and energy that the originator put into them, or do they resonate/disintegrate on their own depending upon the recipient and the environment? I ask because there are so many instances where people use the infamous 'four-lettered words' in casual conversations; and, I would venture to say that they [the words] do not carry literal and intentional meaning in most cases. They are used as 'coulourful metaphors'[?] adjectives, adverbs. Colloquial as they are, vulgarism is not foremost in the user's mind when the word or words are said. Is that just ignorance of the power of words, or do we infuse the words with the power through intended mind action? From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 18:29:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 01:29:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 18393 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.59] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A49167B70100; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:27:45 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703202728.00a277a0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:28:54 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Jewish Emigration to China Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Does anyone confirm the following quote I found on a website: "About 50K Jews came to China from all over the world. Most of them settled down in Shanghai. China is the only country in the world at that time that did not require entry visa, Anybody could freely board at any port of China. But nowadays, this piece of history is almost forgot by the Jewish communities (or they pretend to forget) in the United States of which most of their acendents escaped NAZI's massacre because China accepted them during the darkest time." mkr From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jul 04 00:46:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 07:46:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 86987 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 07:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 07:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 07:46:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id r.45.19af2b8d (3312) for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <45.19af2b8d.2a555757@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:46:31 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Sharpshooting Scholars... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 06/28/02 12:40:14 PM, dhyana@web.de writes: >What is that for a question? >And why he was a psychopath? Because his actions were those of a homicidal maniac. >To which para you refer in the book exactly? Can't remember, since I read translations of the book my father showed me in 1942 before I enlisted in the US Army Air Force. Later, around the time of the invasion and occupation of Germany, I was in Military Intelligence as a Communication Specialist and had access to many records of the SS and other high level command documents signed by Hitler and other high level Nazi mucky mucks. I also helped collect much of the concentration camp photographic evidence used in the nuremberg trials and published in the American newspapers. Not being a historian, and under strict military security orders, I had no reason to keep any references to specific information I read or overheard, some of which are still under security wraps. In any event, I know what I know first hand about Hitler's anti-Semitism and psychopathology. You can also go to this site and find out for yourself what Hitler thought about Jews in Mein Kampf. I'm sure you are also well aware of his other sociopathic "racist" and distorted evolutionary theories. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERantisemitism.htm >And Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were healthy people? Compared to Hitler, some of them were saints. Your obvious defense of Adolf Hitler's murderous pathology and anti-Semitism by making this implicative remark is a clear example of typical racist biases and prejudices, and exposes your use of Neo-Nazi-like propaganda techniques in your arguments. Also comparing the murderous dictator Stalin with Churchill and Roosevelt is another sign of your propensity to use false analogies, questionable references, reliance on so called "authorities," along with specious arguments, in defense of your ideas, beliefs and prejudices. >If I were an orthodox Jew you and a true believer in dead letter ideology >I may have go to Palestine. The most "orthodox Jews" are Kabbalists who have no "dead letter ideology" since all their fundamental teachings are in oral form, and are, for the initiated, practically identical with the esoteric occult teachings of theosophy. Of course, there are some so called "orthodox," "conservative," and "reformed" Jews who do follow the writings of their "Hebrew Bible" or "Old Testament" (not the King James version) -- but even these beliefs are most sensitive to the Talmudic laws of compassion and charity for all human beings. And, contrary to the Christian Bible, the Hebrew Bible is always open to argument and new interpretation. I never met a Jew who didn't accept the three fundamental propositions of theosophy and its concurrent metaphysics when explained logically and scientifically. Did you ever wonder why the Jews who comprise only 1/500 of the human race have won about 1/5 of all Nobel prizes? (Is that why so many fanatical Christian chauvinist's hate them so much?) >If I were an assimilated Jew I may have gone to USA. What is an "assimilated Jew"? The Nazi's made no such distinctions when Jews were sent to the slave camps. >But in both ways I would not revenge myself on the Palestines and rob their >land, culture and soul. That's not what I asked. I assumed you would answer as if you were a legitimate Jewish political leader who had to deal with the German offer of relocation or annihilation. Twisting the answer so as to imply that all Jews, whether assimilated or not, are taking "revenge" on the Palestineans (for what?), and are "land, culture and soul" robbers, is a typical response of a dyed in the wool anti-Semitic bigot -- who knows nothing of Judaism, its culture or its religion -- and still thinks, like most Neo-Nazi's and American "skinheads" that the Jews are a "race." I'm sure that there are many Jews -- including those Europeans that assimilated and became Christians during the Inquisition (and whose ancestors have since forgotten their heritage) who deplore the inadvertent damage done to the Palestinians (as a result of the long standing German anti-Semitism leading to the Nazi forced mass relocation of Jewish concentration camp survivors to Palestine). So, why blame that problem solely on all Jews in general, many of whom had no choice as to where they were forced to live by the German Nazi government supported by the sanction of many of its so called "Aryan" citizens who collectively welcomed (passively, if not actively) the opd decimated the European Jews, the Zionist's would never have had a chance to regain Israel. We might also look a bit deeper into the role of the British and their Nazi sympathizing Royal Family, along with their followers, who tried to keep the Jewish concentration camp refugees out of Palestine when they were isolated on Cyprus. (None of this intending to imply that all, or even many German or British citizens today are anti-Semitic or Nazi sympathizers.) Accordingly, I have no reason to regret my contribution in 1945 (using my concentration camp photo records) in helping the Jewish friends of my father obtain contributions of over $15 million to purchase ships and guns used to defeat the British and transport the concentration camp refugees into Palestine. >If you were an knowledgeable Red Indian in USA during the 18.th and 19.th >Century and knew of the Yankee attitude to eliminate the aboriginales what >would you have done? >Frank That's like comparing apples to oranges. The historical precedents are entirely different. The scattered and separately wandering or nomadic Native American tribes were not a coherent group of people and knew nothing of land ownership, industry, or property rights that came here with the Europeans (most of whom were of Christian Anglo Saxon descent). Besides, there was no generalized "Yankee attitude to eliminate the aborigines" (as there is no general Jewish attitude to "eliminate the Palestinians" that you imply). As for the "Red Indian in USA," the English government gave colonists, and later, the American government gave its "citizens" the right to "stake out," develop, and own unsettled land, and they had no idea that the wandering natives had any rights to what each settler assumed was their own hard earned "property." Consequently, the clashes (that led to the "Indian Wars") between these two opposite types of civilizations, were inevitable. It seems that the same sort of thing is now going on in South America, as the Brazilians spread their westernized civilization into the Amazon Jungles, displacing the aborigines. Naturally, as an uncivilized Native American, living outside of the European based civilization that had overrun my homeland and prevented me from continuing my hunter-gatherer life style, I would have taken whatever course was necessary to protect my family, my tribe, and their food supply. Were I wise enough to understand that I could not effectively resist this encroachment by a superior numbered and higher technologically empowered force, I would have either assimilated, or moved to Canada -- as many practical, if not wise Native Americans did. (From a theosophical point of view, the wise ones would have recognized that their evolutionary cycle as a race was ending and that they were destined to live out their lives until their reincarnation in their next sub-racial cycle, as their karma dictated.) Unfortunately, there are no simple answers as to where the blame lies for the inadvertent clashes of disparate civilizations that for various reasons -- from man's inhumanity to man, pogroms, and persecutions, to the vagaries of Natural disasters and evolutionary processes -- are forced to migrate from one land to another from time to time. What they have to face and respond to from their own group karma is not for us to decide nor to place any blame... (Although, there's nothing wrong with impartially examining the causes and effects for the sake of pure knowledge -- without prejudice or reliance on second hand hearsay opinions -- especially from those with political or philosophical axes to grind.) LHM > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:08 PM >Subject: Re: Theos-World Sharpshooting Scholars... > > >Frank, if you were a knowledgeable and politically minded Jew in Germany >during the 1930's, and knew of Hitler's psychopathic threat (Ref: Mein >Kampf, >and his other political diatribes) to eliminate the Jews from Germany with >the possibility of "final solution" extermination -- and was offered the >chance by the Nazi's to relocate threatened Jewish families to Palestine >-- >what would you have done to cooperate with them? >It's amazing how Hitler's modern day apologists use their selective >historical research to make the Jews out to be the villians in one of the >most heineous crimes of planned genocide the world has ever seen. > >LHM > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Jul 04 02:33:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 09:33:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 74558 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 09:33:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 09:33:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 09:33:55 -0000 Received: from pool0316.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.189.61] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Q2zl-0006xf-00; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 05:33:49 -0400 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Jewish Emigration to China Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:31:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020703202728.00a277a0@mail.gbronline.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 4 2002 re: Ancient dispersal of the Jews to various parts of the East (China, India, Indonesia, etc...) Dear Ramadoss: As far as my own experience in Hong Kong and the far East, I have met "Chinese Jews" who looked as Chinese as any one else there, (in Hong Kong, Manila, Djakarta, Taipei ) yet they traced their ancestry not only to recent émigrés from the European holocaust, but some had a family history that took them back centuries to a time when the Jews (perhaps the Phoenicians) sailed, the oceans and traded with China, possibly over 2,000 years ago. When some of the resent escapees from the horrors of Europe arrived by trans-Siberian railway in Harding, Peking and Shanghai, they received help and succor from the old Chinese Jewish families long established there. In other countries where they had long been in residence, they appeared to be similar in features to the local inhabitants, yet they maintained their synagogues, their schools and their integrity. In India, where I spent much of my early life, there were two groups of Jews, and these were given curious appellations: the "Black Jews," and the "White Jews." The so-called Black Jews traced their ancestry back to a time earlier than the diaspora, and the time when the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem (73 AD), over 2000 years ago. It was then a crisis of dispersal which scattered many of the Jews all over the world. It is those that came to India for refuge at this time that the appellation "White Jews" was used, as their skin did not have time to darken as much as the earlier arrival had. They emigrated in India to ports where traditionally they had traded and even had resident agents such as Cochin, Coconada, Udippi, Travancore and Madras. The "White Jews" as I recall were more the recent arrivals yet, still very old in terms of time. Their time of residence in India under the tropical sun had made the skin color distinction. Among the Jewish communities there was no such distinction and their solidarity was great. This was my personal observation, and I had many friends and acquaintances in their communities. I met Ceylonese Jews in Colombo, and other Jews in Singapore, where they had similar traditions. Another point of interest is that the Apostle Thomas ( Saint Thomas ) and a group of early Jewish Christians emigrated to India and settled near Madras ( St. Thomas Mount ). These early Christians were also received at several of the ports of ancient India and their communities have remained close knit for centuries. They were commonly called the Saint Thomas Christians to distinguish them from the efforts of the Missionaries to christianize India when it was under British rule. When in business in India, I knew many of those old families (Jewish and Christian) and know they had their Synagogues (and old Churches) and were given shelter for centuries by the local Rajahs. Their trade was mainly across the Arabian Sea to the Red Sea and the Middle East. But they also traded East to Rangoon, Malaysia, Singapore, Bangkok, Indonesia, the Philippines and with ancient China, where they said they had relatives in residence. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: ramadoss@gbronline.com [mailto:ramadoss@gbronline.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:29 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Jewish Emigration to China Does anyone confirm the following quote I found on a website: "About 50K Jews came to China from all over the world. Most of them settled down in Shanghai. China is the only country in the world at that time that did not require entry visa, Anybody could freely board at any port of China. But nowadays, this piece of history is almost forgot by the Jewish communities (or they pretend to forget) in the United States of which most of their acendents (ancestors) escaped NAZI's massacre because China accepted them during the darkest time." mkr From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 06:16:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 99630 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:15 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64DGBG10284 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:11 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64DG9c10265 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:09 +0200 Message-ID: <008f01c2235c$fbaa4a80$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:52:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de I heartly argree with what Morten and mkr comment below. Yes, the early theosophists were not politically correct at their times. When HPB noticed that a supernational organization was in attempt to destroy the nationality of India she went there and founded a national movement to counteract these attacks. When she noticed that these black forces were in attempt to take over London she moved there and established her headquarters there to counteract these attacks, although the dark powers banned her magazine Lucifer from all shops on which they had a monopoly. When Katherine Tingley notived that these evil forces were in attempt to take over USA and counteract the policy of Washington and Lincoln she supported the national movement of Edward Bellamy which was also supported by HPB as can be seen from her comment in her "Key". But in the last consequence KT seems to have been not overall success as the "invisible government" (US Pres. Th. Roosevelt) over the Warburgs and Rotschilds was able in 1913 to take complete control over the US. But I think it was not a personal failure for KT, the reason why she has had not the success which would have been necessary to ban the evil forces was the bad condition of the Theos. Movement and there vorious counterforces from within who fightet against her policy, although she was elected by 5,000 delegates present at convention who represented the theosophists the world over. In his 1912 election campaign Theodore Roosevelt said (in my humble retransl.): "Behind the visible goverment there is sitting a invisible government on her throne, which is not responsible to the citizens and recognizes no responsibility. It is the task of the the statesman to destroy this invisible government, this godless alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics." I think was Roosevelt said is the same as HPB said in her "Key", but today we see that this corrupt policy is not limited to the USA alone, it has spread around the world after several plots succeeded and today we have next to no free nation anymore. Nearly all nations are ritual slaughtered by the background illuminati. MKR, you are right. Theosophists and the TS's should stand up and speak out loud. But until today I have heard nothing, either from Pasadena, Adyar or ULT. I think they are either infiltrated by the background powers or they have decided to go the Prateyka way and are satisfied with themselves that have the truth and nothing as the truth and the rest of the world my go now into ARMAGEDDON. In either way the official policy of all 3 so-called "theosophical" organizations is not the way of HPB. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis At 06:31 PM 7/2/02 +0200, Morten Sufilight wrote: >Theosophy at the sideline ? Right question. In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. May be it is time for theosophists to stand up and do what they can to alleviate those suffering masses. This can be done concurrent with other studies and discussions and spiritual practices. mkr From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 06:16:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 72224 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:18 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64DGEB10313 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:14 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64DGBc10281 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:11 +0200 Message-ID: <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:18:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >And felon; he spent time in jail for credit card fraud. But after many parliamentaries in all the world learned that this credit card fraud was a plot of the FBI LaRouche was set free. Furthermore there were some attempts to assassinate him because he speaks out some truths. Thanks a good model to learn what is going on in USA (and the rest of the world). I know also that teh US government fakes the old newspapers in the libraries to let the US government look good in the Pearl Habor and other cases. Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 06:16:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 36124 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:20 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64DGG610328 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:16 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64DGEc10315 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:15 +0200 Message-ID: <009101c2235c$ff1ab920$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:19:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >It may not be apparent from Germany, but Lyndon >Larouche is a well known nut case. Can't find any entry whether in my paper dictionaries nor in my electronical (Babylon) what a nut case is but I think you mean LaRouche is incompetent. Of course I no it because I read also his critics and he himself publishes the comments of his critics, this week f.e. the (idiotic) critics of Gore Vidal. I myself support some points from LaRouche and others not. F.e. I believe what LaRouche says about the 9/11 and the faked Bin Laden story and that Laden and no other Arab would have been technically and logistically been able to make this military exact operation and that this shows an internal fight wihtin the US government. >From the last words of Bush against Arafat one can only conclude that the war partyliners now have complete control and that the stroke against Iraq and several other Arab countries will take place soon. But I don't share f.e. his praise of FDR. >I missed something somewhere. Who is Huntington? O my God (I don't want to belittle you personally). Samuel Huntington is with Henry Kissinger, Brzinski and Wolfowitz the leading ideologist. Read H.' books "Clash of Civilizations" and you know WHY Bush MUST have been elected, no matter what the voters in Florida and elsewhere said. They believe that the biblical end of the times - Armageddon - is NOW THERE and that Israel should rule the world and that Jerusalem should be world capital. According to his book there exists no common basic between the world religions and no universal brotherhoodand that the strongest race must strike first before the other ones strike the Jewish-Christian civilizations. Here you have the open and public program for WW III. >My memory of the events may be inaccurate, but I >thought when Himmlet pushed Goering out of the way and >took over the Gestapo Mueller was dismissed. I read a No. On the contrary Mueller was advanced in rank and salery for his good work. Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 06:16:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 41244 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 13:16:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 13:16:24 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64DGKp10360 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:20 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64DGGc10322 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:16:16 +0200 Message-ID: <009201c2235d$00274720$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <45.19af2b8d.2a555757@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Sharpshooting Scholars... Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:14:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >Because his actions were those of a homicidal maniac. That is no argument. And to be fair, who are the similar dicisions of his cotemporaries Stalin, Churchill ond Roosevelt to be judged? Or is the moral code divisible? >mucks. I also helped collect much of the concentration camp photographic >evidence used in the nuremberg trials and published in the American >newspapers. Not being a historian, and under strict military security >orders, I had no reason to keep any references to specific information I read >or overheard, some of which are still under security wraps. In any event, I >know what I know first hand about Hitler's anti-Semitism and psychopathology. Wrong. You saw only that what you were allowed to see but you did not question whether the documents of your superiors were true or faked by US and/or Russian sources. You never had any doubts because your superiors told you that you are on the right side. That is not your personal mistake, that is the ususal behavior of any soldier in any army, but it's an explanation why you never tried to hear the other side. >You can also go to this site and find out for yourself what Hitler thought >about Jews in Mein Kampf. I'm sure you are also well aware of his other >sociopathic "racist" and distorted evolutionary theories. Yes, I am of course aware of his racist outbreaks. But it is wrong to say that he announced the final solution of the Jews in his book, which in fact he never wrote. I am not in the position to defend him, but I want to make clear the difference. Hope you understand what I mean. He did not announce it nor is a written order it to be found nor is the Wannsee conference a proof, despite the fact that "experts" say is is so. But it is not so. One is in danger to be called a Nazi in saying this but nevertheless it is true. >Compared to Hitler, some of them were saints. Your obvious defense of Adolf >Hitler's murderous pathology and anti-Semitism by making this implicative Ah, that is exactly that what I wrote above. I never defended Hitler but the truth. Tell not lies about Hitler and you will bring me not into a position to defend the truth. Surely, Hitler did many crimes. But that does not mean that Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill did not make crimes. And if my private theory is correct that Hitler was a Trojan horse of New York bankers to make her Holy Land a reality Hitler is a bigger monster to me as even the Jewish propaganda attests. >remark is a clear example of typical racist biases and prejudices, and >exposes your use of Neo-Nazi-like propaganda techniques in your arguments. Funny. To me it looks as it is you who uses Nazi propaganda techniques. >Also comparing the murderous dictator Stalin with Churchill and Roosevelt is >another sign of your propensity to use false analogies, questionable >references, reliance on so called "authorities," along with specious >arguments, in defense of your ideas, beliefs and prejudices. That shows you are still a soldier who has never begone to think for himself. Perhaps it is just you who has alle the false anaolgies and questionable references. In fact, you sources are similiar to here well known communist sources. In the GDR school books there was also the claim that Hitler wrote in his book that the Jews must be killed. But they where never able to present a page, which is of course not necessary for propaganda purposes. Last year you called me a Nazi because I qouted from a German politican weekly and said also this weekly is a Nazi paper, although each week top Jews are interviewed. In the meantime I was told by German-Americans that in US the intolerance and hate is so big that everyone who has an independent thought is called a Nazi. The difficutly between us is that you are true believer of the propaganda and I limit myself to facts and logic. >If I were an orthodox Jew you and a true believer in dead letter ideology >I may have go to Palestine. >metaphysics when explained logically and scientifically. Did you ever wonder >why the Jews who comprise only 1/500 of the human race have won about 1/5 of >all Nobel prizes? (Is that why so many fanatical Christian chauvinist's hate >them so much?) Did I ever said the Jews are stupid? Even Hitler said they are intelligent. The present western science is in a style which helps the Jews because it is limited to brain minded conclusions, the lower manas. Perhaps the Jews get so much Nobel prices because there are so many Jews who decide about it. And not all nobel prices are rightly earned. Take f.e. Einstein, who said for himself that it was not right that he got it. He never was able to present his students his theory and that was the reason why was attacked at the University. Later research showed that the Einstein case was produced by others and that it was not his own thing. >What is an "assimilated Jew"? The Nazi's made no such distinctions when Jews >were sent to the slave camps. Right, they did not made such distinctions. But I never denied that. An assimilated Jew is someone who lives in that country in which he was born and don't believes that the Jews are a race of its own which must go back to a mundane Palestine. >dyed in the wool anti-Semitic bigot -- who knows nothing of Judaism, its OK. I am the biggest ashhole the universe, an anti-semit, a Nazi, a girl rapper, a dugpa. >culture or its religion -- and still thinks, like most Neo-Nazi's and >American "skinheads" that the Jews are a "race." I never said that I believe the Jews are a race. Many Jewish writers claim that the Jews are a race. Benjamin Israeli said it and many German Jewish writers. Should I go to my shelve and quote them? To me it is high questionalbe whether the Jews now in Palestine are the same as the old Jews, the Hebrews. Most of the Jews in Palestine are Khasars from Russia. >assimilated and became Christians during the Inquisition (and whose ancestors The inquisition originated from Jews, "Loyola" and the SJ, that's why Martin Luther wrote so harshly against the Jews. >to the Palestinians (as a result of the long standing German anti-Semitism >leading to the Nazi forced mass relocation of Jewish concentration camp >survivors to Palestine). Purely propaganda. In no country the Jews had so many rights as in Germany, that's the reason why the Nazis were installed in that country because no single German Jews would have been willing to leave his country for a sentimental desert idea as Richard Harte of T.P.S. wrote correct in his introduction. What you wrote is purely anti-Germanism. >So, why blame that problem solely on all Jews in general, many of whom had no >choice as to where they were forced to live by the German Nazi government >supported by the sanction of many of its so called "Aryan" citizens who Again that old Chuzpee trick. I never denied that. On the contrary I several wrote that the average Jew was a victim, too of the cooperation between Zionists and Nazis. That is the same what Rudolf Steiner said about the 1897 Herzle Congress: The Jews are the frist victims because their religious misunderstandings are used by dark powers for their wordly ends. >We might also look a bit deeper into the role of the British and their Nazi >sympathizing Royal Family, along with their followers, who tried to keep the King Edward and the Prince of Wales were supporters of Hitler. But not the British government who were very jealousy about the high sicial standards in Germany. The German worker had (since Bismarck) health insurance, pension, holidays, protection against firing and the KdF steamers (Kraft durch Freude = Power through pleasure) were bringing masses of German workers to the English coast were they spent their holidays at a time when a worker in any European country could only dream of it to make once in his life time holidays in a foreign country. It was not possible. And now the Nazis came to power and Hitler fulfilled one social point after the other. These social standards became after 1945 common in West Europe, even to the anti nazis :-) >I have no reason to regret my contribution in 1945 (using my concentration >camp photo records) in helping the Jewish friends of my father obtain >contributions of over $15 million to purchase ships and guns used to defeat >the British and transport the concentration camp refugees into Palestine. Right. But you should give this idiotic Yad Vashem center in Tel Aviv copies of it and demand publishing of it. That British parashooters and ships blocked the Nazi SS steamers of Adolf Eichmann to Palestine is covered up by them. You should fight for the truth even if Jewish organizations don't want to hear it. There reason is that otherwise they had to explain the Menachim Begin gang and the Stern gang and other Holocaust things they did in Palestine. >If you were an knowledgeable Red Indian in USA during the 18.th and 19.th >Century and knew of the Yankee attitude to eliminate the aboriginales what >would you have done? >Frank >That's like comparing apples to oranges. The historical precedents are >entirely different. The scattered and separately wandering or nomadic Native >American tribes were not a coherent group of people and knew nothing of land >ownership, industry, or property rights that came here with the Europeans >(most of whom were of Christian Anglo Saxon descent). Besides, there was no >generalized "Yankee attitude to eliminate the aborigines" (as there is no >general Jewish attitude to "eliminate the Palestinians" that you imply). That's anti-Indianism. And never heard about Samuel Huntington and Sharon? Even Sharon's education secretary said that his policy is the same as what the Nazi did in the Warsaw ghetto. >practical, if not wise Native Americans did. (From a theosophical point of >view, the wise ones would have recognized that their evolutionary cycle as a >race was ending and that they were destined to live out their lives until >their reincarnation in their next sub-racial cycle, as their karma dictated.) Interesting thought. Does that also count for the Jews? Why so much Holocaust propaganda? Why not say their circle was ending in Auschwitz and they should reincarnate as the next sub-race? Or is the moral code decidable and flexible to any directions I personally prefer? >Unfortunately, there are no simple answers as to where the blame lies for the >inadvertent clashes of disparate civilizations that for various reasons -- >from man's inhumanity to man, pogroms, and persecutions, to the vagaries of >Natural disasters and evolutionary processes -- are forced to migrate from >one land to another from time to time. What they have to face and respond to >from their own group karma is not for us to decide nor to place any blame... Agreed. >(Although, there's nothing wrong with impartially examining the causes and >effects for the sake of pure knowledge -- without prejudice or reliance on >second hand hearsay opinions -- especially from those with political or >philosophical axes to grind.) Agreed. But examing the causes and effects is a hard job when others blame the researcher as Nazi etc. Or is a researcher only a good researcher as long he has your opinion - to paraphrase Mark Twain? Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 06:18:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 13:18:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 6452 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 13:18:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 13:18:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 13:18:50 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64DIkv10945 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:18:46 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64DIic10934 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:18:44 +0200 Message-ID: <009301c2235d$5848ec60$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:18:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >Hi Frank and all, > >I agree a lot on the below Frank. >Do you have a link or some documentation on this statement ?: >"Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that." Morten, I wrote my information from the books I have. I don't surf so much because it is a little bit expensive here. But you could take a look to the publisher at http://www.bender-publishing.com/ . I check this books since a longer time and until now they seem to be true, that means I have not find until no a real error. Frank From llkingston2@juno.com Thu Jul 04 08:08:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 66908 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4GQYvBySsE8vve7/AggoLXQ=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G6VRN7LT; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:08:07 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:58:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Message-ID: <20020704.105828.-782243.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,9,12-13,20-21,26-27,32-33,35-46 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 I have followed this discussion with much interest though it seems somewhat far removed from Theosophy. 1-Mueller was indead retained as Gestapo chief. In 1943 Hitler realized a major dream of him by finalizing the consolidation of all German police agencies under a central department. This was the RSHA or Reich Security Main Office headed by Himmler's #2 man Richard Heydrich. The Gestapo became one department in this organization, alonf with the SD (Intelligence Dept) the Kripo (Criminal Police) and the Orpo (Order Police). Mueller was in attendence at the infamous Wanasee Conference where these SS leaders, Heydrich, Mueller, Eichmann presented the "Final Solution" to the occupation governors. Nice bunch! 2-While the Third Reich was clearly a tyranny and the US is a republic, there a analogs to these various German groups, at least in basic function. The SD relates to the CIA, while the Gestapo is equivilant to the FBI. The Kripo is all the state and local detective departments, while the Orpo is the traffic, crowd control, etc. Until now we have had no analog to the RSHA. But now we have this proposed new federal department to oversee all internal security. Hmmm... 3-Recent polls have indicated that most Americans are willing to sacrifice a portion of their freedoms for greater security. yet all the leader recognize that while we may stop terrorists here and there, some will get through. If a little (in size) nation such as Israel can't stop the almost daily terrorist attacks, how can we? 4-In our individual lives, we also look for security in part. But it is never really there. We try to safeguard our homes, but fire, flood, tornados and earthquakes and quickly brush that all aside. We try to protect our loved ones but ultimately all are taken. Financial security is likewise a perilous thing. And as for love... 5-So what does Theosophy teach in this regard? Why are we so anxious to protect Maya? What can we do to overcome this? Larry Kolts > >My memory of the events may be inaccurate, but I > >thought when Himmlet pushed Goering out of the way and > >took over the Gestapo Mueller was dismissed. > No. On the contrary Mueller was advanced in rank and salery for his > good > work. > Frank > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 04 08:24:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 15:24:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 30094 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10.atl.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.246) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 15:24:51 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Q8TQ-0000ED-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:24:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:25:09 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > >And felon; he spent time in jail for credit card fraud. > > But after many parliamentaries in all the world learned that this credit > card fraud was a plot of the FBI LaRouche was set free. And the fact that he had served his entire sentence had NOTHING to do with his being freed? Bart Lidofsky From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 10:00:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 17:00:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 29478 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 17:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 17:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 17:00:53 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64H0ne27229 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:49 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64H0lc27218 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:48 +0200 Message-ID: <00f601c2237c$5de68320$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.176 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >And the fact that he had served his entire sentence had NOTHING to do >with his being freed? I am not LaRouche's lawyer. But you can take a look under http://www.larouchespeaks.com/ then go to "Who Is Lying About Lyndon LaRouche?" Perhaps you find out more! Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 10:00:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 17:00:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 40280 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 17:00:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 17:00:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 17:00:56 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64H0qO27257 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:52 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64H0mc27225 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:49 +0200 Message-ID: <00f701c2237c$5e75f1e0$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Reitemeyer on Mueller and Douglas Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:00:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.176 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >One might want to COMPARE what Frank writes above with, for example, >the following review of one of Douglas' books on Mueller: > >See http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p40_Douglas.html > >Daniel Caldwell Thanks for additional information. My humble comment: 1. The IHR you link to is a revisionist or rather a Neo Nazi organization. 2. The IHR refers to David Irving that the US files on Gestapo Mueller are fake, but Irving is regardes as a Neo Nazi who said that no Holocaust and no extermination on the Jews happened. OTOH, from the Mueller interrogation there is clear confirmation from Gestapo Mueller that that happened. Why do the Neo Nazis and the oligarchy establishment historians co-operate in the Mueller case either by covering up or by desinformation? Both have an interest that the Mueller files and diaries are not researched because the cardhouses of both would break down, for the Neo Nazis that a Holocaust happened and for the establishment that the USA were working with the Nazi elite. BTW, it was David Irving who, when in 1983 the ill-famed faked Hitler diary was presented was the first expert who affirmed for 100% that there were true. That's the background for their headline "Not quite the Hitler diaries". 3. In the critic above there are no hard facts, only opinions and blah blah, to give some examples: - "My view that the Gestapo Chief series is an elaborate hoax is based not only on an examination of the books themselves," : Which exactly??? - "but on lengthy telephone conversations with the author. From these talks, I can attest that "Gregory Douglas" is intelligent, loquacious, knowledgeable, and literate, but also amoral, evasive, and vindictive. Those who have spoken at any length with him are struck by his chronic cynicism -- a trait that, interestingly enough, is reflected in the words he attributes to Müller throughout the Gestapo Chief series." That is no argument. If someone calls me asking me for comments on the Coulomb case he perhaps would also say that I am that kind of cynical amoral and evasive person, because he will not accept that someone tells the truth which contradicts his own projections and selffulfilling prophecy. -"The man who crafted this series of books is a known fabricator of documents who has used a variety of names over the years, including Peter Stahl, Samuel Prescot Bush, and Freiherr Von Mollendorf. His real name, apparently, is Peter Norton Birch or Peter Norwood Burch." The use of pseudonyms is no proof that someone is a liar. -"David Irving, who is probably more familiar with wartime German documents than any other living historian, dismisses Gestapo Chief as "a carefully crafted historical novel." Some years ago, Irving says, "Peter Stahl" tried to sell him forged documents." When Neo Nazi Irving says the Mueller interrogation is a fake it it perhaps because Mueller affirms that Jews were killed. -"Perhaps the most obviously suspect feature of the Gestapo Chief series is that the author will not permit any independent examination of his "original" documents." That is no proof that they are faked. Also most of the Nazi documents who are usually believed as true are not accessible to the public or to historians. Most if not nearly all Holocaust literature is bases on xerox copies or microfilm copies of alleged Nazi documents. Next to no one has seen the originals in US possession, but nevertheless the Holocaust literature is common believed. -"(To be sure, not all the documents he presents are fraudulent. To add credibility to his book, "Douglas" includes, among his forgeries, a number of indisputably authentic wartime documents.)" That means those documents which not contradict the official version are authentic and those who give another picture are faked... - "During one telephone conversation, "Douglas" told me with some pride that his book would soon be coming out in German, and that the 1948 Müller interrogations were being translated into German. But how, I asked, was that possible, given that (as Gestapo Chief readers are told) these interrogations took place in German and the "original" transcripts are already in German. The normally suave and loquacious "Douglas" was at a loss for words." As the author stated in his books these interrogations where retranslated into English for US military and a German version was for Mueller's private use. It is unknown what happened with this German version. The English version went into US possession in Ft. Meade, Maryland and elsewhere. - "Characteristic of this entire series is the clearly fraudulent "facsimile document" of April 20, 1945, presented on page 275 of Gestapo Chief. This is actually the author's second, "corrected" version. The first appeared with an article he wrote for the spring 1990 issue of The Military Advisor, a magazine issued by the same firm that publishes Gestapo Chief. But whereas the "SS" characters are rendered in this earlier "facsimile" as normal typescript letters, they are rendered in Gestapo Chief as "lightning bolt" runes." The fact that another version of this document was published earlier without the SS runes is no proof that this document not available is fake. US authoroties made several copies from German documents and US type writers usually :-) did not have rune types so it would be quite natural that an US transcript has no runes. No mention is made abou the content of that document. - "How did these amazing documents come into the author's possession? In Gestapo Chief, the first volume of the series, "Douglas" tells the reader that "In the early 1980s, by means that are not of concern here, all of Müller's personal files came into private hands." Later "Douglas" claimed that Müller personally gave him these extraordinary documents (Spotlight, Jan. 6, 1997). In another Spotlight interview (Nov. 9, 1998), "Douglas" claimed to have met Müller in 1963, and to have known him well until his death in 1983. Remarkably, no mention of this twenty-year relationship appears in volume one of Gestapo Chief." That is also no proof that the documents are faked. - "To credit Douglas' fantastic yarns requires one to accept that Hitler's personal and political testaments of April 29, 1945, are phony, and that all those who were with him in the final days in the Berlin bunker, and who survived the war, conspired for decades in a lie to hide the German leader's escape to Spain." Wrong. The lower co-workers conspired not but were true believers in the official theater and thought what they saw: That Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide in the bunker. What they did not knew is that these persons who appeared as Hitler and Eva Braun were doubles. Hitler has had three doubles who hold even public lectures etc. What IHR not says is that Hitler's chief secretary Christa Schroeder reports in her book that he once told (around 1943, I am writing from memory) her that he will never fall into the hands of the enemy and that he has arranged things that after the war when Germany is occupied the enemy he will start a resistance movement from a hideout the Allied will never find. Further Hitler said that it was clear for the German government since end of the 1920's when all their level-headed disarment suggestions in the League of Nation were rejected by the Allied that a new World War would happen and for that reason the helpless and frustrated democratic politicians helped him to come to power to counteract the new round up of Germany. Therefor, there was no reason for Hitler to commit suicide. - "Hans Baur, Hitler' pilot; Traudl Junge, the secretary who typed Hitler's final testament; the pilot Hanna Reitsch; Otto Günsche, Hitler's personal adjutant, who carried the body of Eva Braun from the bunker up to the courtyard where it was burned; Erich Kempka, the chauffeur who helped burn the bodies of Hitler and his wife;" Fact is that the corpes of Hitler and Braun were never found. That is not what Nazis say, Leon, that is what every historian says. It is common knowledge that the head in Moscow is not Hitler's as an X-Ray of his teeth e xists and the teeth in Moscow are surely too bad to be Hitler's. Also the photos made by the Red Army of the dead Hitler and only half burned body clearly show that it was not he as the double has edged ears like Spock and the true Hitler had round ears. Also this dead Hitler has a hole in his socks and Hitler never weared holed socks. Leon, that I say that Hitler did not wear socks with holes in it does not imply that I am a fan of Hitler. And when I say that Emma Coulomb never shot with a gun on HPB it does also not imply that I am a foe of theosophy. - "Some of these witnesses were questioned by British historians Hugh Trevor-Roper and David Irving; others, during Soviet captivity, by the Russians. Their stories tally." But it is well known by experts that guys like Trevor-Roper, Irving and Henry Picker, Hermann Rauschning etc. are fakers and produced interviews which never happened. This is common sense among insiders. - "Finally, it is utterly implausible to believe that Hitler would have vanished without trace after arriving in Spain, and that not a single one of the many persons who would have noticed his arrival there has ever spoken of it." This implies that all what happens in the world is known by all people. Contrary, if Hitler has left traces they would say these traces are faked. Further arguments: 1. The first two vol. in German were consored by German authorities, by the state attorney in Starnberg, Bavaria. This is a clear proof how dangerous these books are for the establishments. Were the book fake nobody would care for them. 2. The Simon Wiesenthal Center believes the Mueller files are true. 3. Two German newspapers who are Jewish friendly reported about the Mueller files, stating they are true: The Frankurter Allegemeine Zeitung on Febr 28, 2001 and the Neue Zuricher Zeitung on April 30, 2001. 4. The official Mueller grave in Berlin Kreuzberg was opened on Sept. 25, 1963. The official legend is that Mueller died in 1945 in a street fight with the Russians. These exhumation was requested by West German Ludwigsburg Center who deals with ex Nazis for prosecution and they had information that Mueller survived 1945. The pathological examination proved that the man was not Mueller but were the remains of three different men. 5. Both Hitler and Mueller were on warrant by Interpol at least up the 1970's. I am not the defender of the Mueller case and I have no problem with it when they are a fake. But up to I have not heard of any facts that speak against the books. Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Jul 04 10:08:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 17:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 60332 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 17:07:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 17:07:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 17:07:59 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g64H7s428221 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:07:54 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g64H7rc28208 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:07:53 +0200 Message-ID: <010301c2237d$5b862f80$b0de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> Subject: LaRouche as political prisoner of the US establishment Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:07:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.176 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >And the fact that he had served his entire sentence had NOTHING to do >with his being freed? I took a look under http://www.larouchespeaks.com/ section "From Around the World Thousands of Officials Call for LaRouche's Exoneration In An Open Letter to the President of the United States" were the ADL lies are rejected. The fraudulent charges against all people who stay for truth or are at least truth seekers are well known, in my country, too. It is always the same handwriting. Frank From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 04 10:17:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 17:17:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 87458 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 17:17:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 17:17:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO granger.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.148) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 17:17:01 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QADz-0005MY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 13:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3D24831D.2A23A575@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 13:17:17 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> <00f601c2237c$5de68320$b0de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > >And the fact that he had served his entire sentence had NOTHING to do > >with his being freed? > > I am not LaRouche's lawyer. But you can take a look under > http://www.larouchespeaks.com/ then go to > "Who Is Lying About Lyndon LaRouche?" > Perhaps you find out more! It's on the Internet, and therefore has to be true? Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 04 10:52:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 17:52:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 89003 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 17:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 17:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40014.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 17:52:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20020704175236.21063.qmail@web40014.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.244] by web40014.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:52:36 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Frank: I think I understand your position now. Let me restate it and you can say whether I have it right or not. You start with the well documented fact that European antiSemitism and particularly Hitler's murderous version of it was instrumental in promoting the Zionist movement and leading to the foundation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I think any well informed person would agree with you on that. You then make the interesting argument that if Hitler's activities served the interests of Zionism, then Hitler must have been their obedient pawn. He was their employee in effect and took orders from Ben Gurion through various intermediaries. I think this is where you would part company with most other students of the conflict. It is an interesting theory, but one which would require documentary proof for it to be generally accepted. One problem is that even if you are right and Rotschild money supported him in his early campaign there is no reason to believe Rothschild continued to control him after he came to power. Whoever wrote the television documentary series WORLD AT WAR (which is available on VHS) had their narrator read that when Hitler was made chancellor the people responsible thought he would be their puppet and that they could control him from behind the scenes. I cite a documentary because I have not seen this in any book I have read. The documentary then said that they were mistaken and that they swiftly lost control of him after he took power, declared a state of emergency, opened concentration camps, started the Reichstag Fire, etc. That seems more consistent with the facts than the theory that he was a puppet of New York bankers. Another problem is that if this theory depends on documentation in the Abegg files and those files were all destroyed there is no way to confirm the statements of the people who say this. If everyone who knew anything about the files was murdered by Nazis, then how is it that conspiracy theorists have detailed information on their contents? With no files and no witnesses, the most anyone could truthfully say is that they were alleged to have existed. And if he had the entire Rothschild fortune at his disposal, how is it that you say he was broke in 1932? That suggests that R must have cut off his allowance. You might want to examine some of these problems more closely. Also your statement that John Foster Dulles was murdered in 1933 is hard to accept, given that he was secretary of state twenty years later. That is a minor point, of course, as is your statement that Himmler made Mueller Gestapo chief. It was Goering who did that, but minor errors of fact do not affect your main thesis. You are obviously a serious student of history. You are right to study the works of serious historians, some of whom you have cited, but you are doing yourself a disservice IMO by taking characters like Lyndon Larouche seriously. I do not doubt your statement that the Grand Orient in Paris wrote a letter to Woodrow Wilson, for example. Lots of people wrote to Wilson, including Ho Chi Minh, who was a student in Paris at the time. That Wilson even saw the GO letter, let alone read it, is questionable. That he took orders from the Grand Orient is extremely unlikely. The difference is that I would tend to be more skeptical in dealing with some of this evidence. If you can find a serious historian who thinks there is some merit in the Hitler pawn theory, then please let us know. I would like to know more about that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 04 11:51:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 18:51:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 91004 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 18:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 18:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40020.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.60) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 18:51:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020704185136.13087.qmail@web40020.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.244] by web40020.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 11:51:36 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20020704.105828.-782243.0.llkingston2@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Larry F Kolts wrote: > In > 1943 Hitler realized a > major dream of him by finalizing the consolidation > of all German police > agencies under a central department. This was the > RSHA or Reich Security > Main Office headed by Himmler's #2 man Richard > Heydrich. There was no Richard Heydrich. The SD was headed by Reinhard Heydrich. Also, SD stands for Security Service, not Intelligence Department. Foreign intelligence was one of their many functions, though. > 2-While the Third Reich was clearly a tyranny and > the US is a republic, > there a analogs to these various German groups Nazi Germany was a republic just as the US is, despite the "reich" misnomer in its legal title. > The SD relates to the CIA, while the > Gestapo is equivilant to > the FBI. I hope not., I would hate to think the FBI has started torturing people, instead of having the Syrians and Filipinos do it for them. Interestingly, Alan Dershowitz, noting that the most notorious terrorists are currently Muslims, advocates the legalization of torture. I was disappointed by that, since I have always admired him. He has not commented to my knowledge whether he would advocate torturing Jewish Defense League members or captured Mossad terrorists or whether it should apply to only Muslims. I think he should do a G. Gordon Liddy and hold his hand over a burning flame for a few minutes then decide whether torture really is a justifiable strategy > If a little (in size) nation such > as Israel can't stop > the almost daily terrorist attacks, how can we? We tell the FBI to stop drinking coffee and writing memos and get with it, that's how. Then we look for someone to blame if they screw up. > > 4-In our individual lives, we also look for security > in part. But it is > never really there. It is for me. I found it one day in my closet. And to think I had forgotten I even put it there. > What can we do to overcome this? Sell everything you have and give to the poor, namely me. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 04 12:26:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 19:26:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 10707 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 19:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 19:26:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40014.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 19:26:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20020704192637.28639.qmail@web40014.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.43] by web40014.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 12:26:37 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <009101c2235c$ff1ab920$b0de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > Can't find any entry whether in my paper > dictionaries nor in my electronical > (Babylon) what a nut case is Sorry, that is a colloquialism. Another way of saying it would be that he is paddling with a dry oar. Larouche could be kindly described as a man with opinions of doubtful validity, and unkindly as the high apostle of the lunatic fringe. Any statements of fact that come from him would have to be accepted only when verified by better sources of information if at all. > From the last words of Bush against Arafat one can > only conclude that the > war partyliners now have complete control and that > the stroke against Iraq > and several other Arab countries will take place > soon. I am more optimistic. I think the line regarding Arafat is best viewed as a negotiating gambit and that the war with Iraq will not happen. Prophecy is a risky business. Time will tell if I am right. > O my God (I don't want to belittle you personally). > Samuel Huntington is > with Henry Kissinger, Brzinski and Wolfowitz the > leading ideologist. Read > H.' books "Clash of Civilizations" and you know WHY > Bush MUST have been > elected, no matter what the voters in Florida and > elsewhere said. Thanks for the clarification. Now I know who you mean. There is a useful article on him at: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/12/kaplan.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 04 13:15:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 20:15:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 37103 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 20:15:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 20:15:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO granger.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.148) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 20:15:17 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QD0W-0000pK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 16:15:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3D24ACE3.ECBE83F6@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 16:15:31 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020704185136.13087.qmail@web40020.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Interestingly, Alan Dershowitz, noting that the most > notorious terrorists are currently Muslims, advocates > the legalization of torture. I was disappointed by > that, since I have always admired him. He has not > commented to my knowledge whether he would advocate > torturing Jewish Defense League members or captured > Mossad terrorists or whether it should apply to only > Muslims. If someone is part of a plot to kill people who can be saved with that person's cooperation, and the person refuses to cooperate, I could see the use of torture. But it requires absolute certainty that the person is refusing to talk rather than simply does not have the information. And that would have to be determined on a case by case basis, with a great deal of care, which I am not sure I trust any governmental agency to exercise. It is an interesting question. Somebody has the information that would save the life of somebody that you love. You are doing the questioning. How far would YOU go in getting the information? Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 04 14:38:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 21:38:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 363 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 21:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 21:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40004.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 21:38:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20020704213828.58922.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.233.93] by web40004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 14:38:28 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D24ACE3.ECBE83F6@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > It is an interesting question. Somebody has the > information that would > save the life of somebody that you love. You are > doing the questioning. > How far would YOU go in getting the information? It is an interesting question and the answer, I submit, is a fairly simple one. You can force a man to talk by torturing him. But you cannot force him to tell you the truth. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From llkingston2@juno.com Thu Jul 04 14:42:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 56928 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4JT/amGxbD3Y3wYpp2LT7/Q=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G6WF7WSK; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:41:44 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:31:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Message-ID: <20020704.173158.-910215.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,9-14,18-28,38-47,49-96 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 > > There was no Richard Heydrich. The SD was headed by > Reinhard Heydrich. Yes, that's the guy. Thanks for catching my historical mistake and correcting it. Heydrich was the head of the SD until the formation of the RSHA and then was promoted to head that entire organization. He chaired the Wanesee Conference and was assassinated following the Lidice Massacre. I believe Kaltenbrunner took his place. Also, SD stands for Security > Service, not Intelligence Department. Foreign > intelligence was one of their many functions, though. That's correct. It had two departments within the RSHA, one foreign and one internal. The CIA has other functions besides intellegence gathering also but be bascially think of it in intelligence terms I was giving a functional term rather than a direct transliteration of Sicherheitsdienst (SD) > > > 2-While the Third Reich was clearly a tyranny and > > the US is a republic, > > there a analogs to these various German groups > > Nazi Germany was a republic just as the US is, despite > the "reich" misnomer in its legal title. Here I would have to disagree. true, German was a republic in the Weimar Era and Hitler came to power by manipulating that government, but just as Rome was transformed into an empire from its republic as was France under Napolean, so was Germany under Hitler. In a republic, the states retain a portion of sovereignty. The Lander had such, but Hitler dissolved them and made them mear administrative departments of the central Reich, just as Napolean did to the old French provences. He also outlawed political parties other than the National Socialists. He also had all Germans swear allegiance to him personally as Fuhrer. I believe that by this time the republic was dead. > > > The SD relates to the CIA, while the > > Gestapo is equivilant to > > the FBI. > > I hope not., I would hate to think the FBI has > started torturing people, instead of having the > Syrians and Filipinos do it for them. Yes, but what of Ruby Ridge and Waco? Actually. I was not saying they are similar in actual operations, just that the basic purpose was similar. > > Interestingly, Alan Dershowitz, noting that the most > notorious terrorists are currently Muslims, advocates > the legalization of torture. I was disappointed by > that, since I have always admired him. He has not > commented to my knowledge whether he would advocate > torturing Jewish Defense League members or captured > Mossad terrorists or whether it should apply to only > Muslims. I think he should do a G. Gordon Liddy and > hold his hand over a burning flame for a few minutes > then decide whether torture really is a justifiable > strategy > > > If a little (in size) nation such > > as Israel can't stop > > the almost daily terrorist attacks, how can we? > > We tell the FBI to stop drinking coffee and writing > memos and get with it, that's how. Then we look for > someone to blame if they screw up. > > > > > 4-In our individual lives, we also look for security > > in part. But it is > > never really there. > > It is for me. I found it one day in my closet. And > to think I had forgotten I even put it there. > > > What can we do to overcome this? > > Sell everything you have and give to the poor, namely > me. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From samblo@cs.com Thu Jul 04 15:05:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 22:05:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 73099 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 22:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 22:05:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 22:05:51 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id r.111.14a695e3 (24899); Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <111.14a695e3.2a5620ba@cs.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:05:46 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: skywatcher22@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, This current topic just happens to touch on an area of my current interest which was not directly related to Theosophical History but seems relevant so I post these Url's for the inspection and information of the readers here ,it seems T. Roosevelt spoke true words unfortunately. Please read this first: http://www.rense.com/general26/dutch.htm And then analyize this: http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/federal_reserve.shtml And then this: http://209.208.183.6/notices/nycc/depositories1.htm And Declassified Files Listing here: http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified_records/office_of_alien_property_grou p_131c.htm As a note ,I am looking into Operations "Sunrise", "Overcast", "Paperclip", "Bloodstone", and "Belarus" . Here is a valuable website that can display Key Named Individuals and their Social Network. It is most informative ! http://www.pir.org/ John From ramadoss@gbronline.com Thu Jul 04 15:17:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 22:17:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 62777 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 22:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 22:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 22:17:40 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.168] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A92748F5010E; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:16:07 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020704170644.00c07e20@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:17:36 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? In-Reply-To: <20020704.105828.-782243.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Thanks for detailed analysis. The physical security issue relating to the recent terrorist attempts seems to be just a symptom. While one cannot get total security, one can probably minimize the threats by addressing the root cause of the problem, which cannot be done by technology addressing only the symptoms. Only a creative political solution is likely to yield effective results. When I saw your msg, I was remined of a talk in which Krishnamurti was saying that there is no such thing as security in life. When I discuss with my clients about asset protection issues relating to law suits, I tell them the famous mythological story from India. There was a King who prayed for years and one day God manifested before him and asked him what boon he wanted. The King did not want to die. So he asked that he not be killed either during day or night, nor by a human being or an animal, nor inside a building or outside a building. God granted the boon and the King went on his way assured he will never die. Finally the appointed day of death came. God manifested as Man-Animal, upper part of the being Lion and lower part being Man and came at dusk and went to the Palace where the King was in at that time and dragged the King and laid his body at the front door with one half inside the Palace and the other half outside and was disemboweled and thus killed. mkr At 10:58 AM 7/4/02 -0400, Larry F Kolts wrote: >I have followed this discussion with much interest though it seems >somewhat far removed from Theosophy. > >1-Mueller was indead retained as Gestapo chief. In 1943 Hitler realized a >major dream of him by finalizing the consolidation of all German police >agencies under a central department. This was the RSHA or Reich Security >Main Office headed by Himmler's #2 man Richard Heydrich. The Gestapo >became one department in this organization, alonf with the SD >(Intelligence Dept) the Kripo (Criminal Police) and the Orpo (Order >Police). >Mueller was in attendence at the infamous Wanasee Conference where these >SS leaders, Heydrich, Mueller, Eichmann presented the "Final Solution" to >the occupation governors. Nice bunch! > >2-While the Third Reich was clearly a tyranny and the US is a republic, >there a analogs to these various German groups, at least in basic >function. The SD relates to the CIA, while the Gestapo is equivilant to >the FBI. The Kripo is all the state and local detective departments, >while the Orpo is the traffic, crowd control, etc. Until now we have had >no analog to the RSHA. But now we have this proposed new federal >department to oversee all internal security. Hmmm... > >3-Recent polls have indicated that most Americans are willing to >sacrifice a portion of their freedoms for greater security. yet all the >leader recognize that while we may stop terrorists here and there, some >will get through. If a little (in size) nation such as Israel can't stop >the almost daily terrorist attacks, how can we? > >4-In our individual lives, we also look for security in part. But it is >never really there. We try to safeguard our homes, but fire, flood, >tornados and earthquakes and quickly brush that all aside. We try to >protect our loved ones but ultimately all are taken. Financial security >is likewise a perilous thing. And as for love... > >5-So what does Theosophy teach in this regard? Why are we so anxious to >protect Maya? What can we do to overcome this? > >Larry Kolts > > > >My memory of the events may be inaccurate, but I > > >thought when Himmlet pushed Goering out of the way and > > >took over the Gestapo Mueller was dismissed. > > > No. On the contrary Mueller was advanced in rank and salery for his > > good > > work. > > Frank > > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Jul 04 19:51:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Jul 2002 02:51:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 11428 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 02:51:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2002 02:51:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 02:51:53 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout01.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0GYR00LDZ9AFH0@mtaout01.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:51:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:51:47 -0500 Subject: "FACETS OF INQUIRY" (#9--JULY/AUGUST 2000) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3D2517D2.60B90201@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 16 articles from THEOSOPHY magazine have been scanned, proofread, and added to the WisdomWorld.org web site since my last posting to this forum concerning new material (two weeks ago). The title of the article used in the above subject heading is the most recent one that was finished. The finished articles are in the following two sections that I'm working on (11 in the first section and 5 in the second section): I finished 11 more articles in this growing "Collated Articles" section since I posted the last batch of its finished ones here. The section is found in the lower portion of the "Additional" articles Index page. It now has a total of 313 articles in it, of which 312 are finished (as of when I mailed this off). The 11 articles are listed in the order that they were done: * The Light of Everlasting * The Mystery of Death * The Atom--Temple of Jiva * The Elements of Prayer * Bhumi's Occult Progeny * The Electric Entity * The Emblem of Life * Teachings on the Avataras * The Angelic Fall * Planetary Influences * Union With Deity [Here's the link to the section on the "Additional Articles" page]: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#12 I'm working on these "Nine Groupings of Articles". They are found listed in the lower portion of the "Additional" articles Index page (the link to the section is found after the below copy of it). The 5 newly-finished ones are in two of the groupings (the number of new ones that were done are in brackets after the total number of articles that are finished in each grouping). Where I haven't typed anything in brackets, like this example, "[4 are new here]", it means that no new ones were added as of this moment in time (when I mailed this off): ========================== NINE GROUPINGS OF ARTICLES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE & ADULTS -- MOST OF WHICH ARE IN "QUESTION & ANSWER" FORMAT (This NEW section was added on May 4th. During the particular years that each of these nine departments from THEOSOPHY magazine were current, which I've provided next to their names, an article from them was presented in each monthly issue (with a few exceptions here and there), along with the many other articles and departments in each issue. The 9th one is a current department in the magazine. I change the red numbers of the finished articles in each category as I do them, as well as this number: A total of 81 articles are now finished, out of about 880.) (1) Theosophy School (1925-26) (11-part series) (Finished on May 25th) (2) Youth-Companions' Forum (1930-41) (8 are finished) (3) Youth-Companions Ask-- (1947-51) (9 are finished) (4) Youth-Companions Ask--and Answer (1951-62) (8 are finished) (5) Youth Forum (1962-67) (8 are finished) (6) Student Reflections (1996-98) (12 are finished) [4 are new here] (7) Question--and Comment (1960-62) (8 are finished) (8) Letters-Questions-Comment (1962-98) (8 are finished) (9) Facets of Inquiry (since 1999) (9 are finished) [1 is new here] ===================================================================== This is the link to the section that you see a copy of above: (Please keep in mind that whenever you happen to click on this link some or all of the totals of the newly-finished articles, [those in brackets], may have increased since this e-mail was sent; this includes the possibility that the finished totals in some or all of the rest of the unfinished groupings may have also increased.) http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#13 ======================================================= John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 04 21:09:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Jul 2002 04:09:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 10230 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 04:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2002 04:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.110) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 04:09:37 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QKPX-00083K-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:09:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3D251C2D.5BB71822@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:10:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020704213828.58922.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > It is an interesting question. Somebody has the > > information that would > > save the life of somebody that you love. You are > > doing the questioning. > > How far would YOU go in getting the information? > > It is an interesting question and the answer, I > submit, is a fairly simple one. You can force a man > to talk by torturing him. But you cannot force him to > tell you the truth. Actually, an expert can. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 04 21:12:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Jul 2002 04:12:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 86034 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 04:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2002 04:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.110) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 04:12:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QKST-0001QM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:12:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3D251CE2.7238890F@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:13:22 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020704.173158.-910215.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > Yes, but what of Ruby Ridge and Waco? Actually. I was not saying they are > similar in actual operations, just that the basic purpose was similar. Ruby Ridge was a straight screw-up. Waco was a grandstanding attempt to make a big bust of an unpopular group around appropriations time, followed by a massive and deadly spin doctoring followed by a cover-up. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Jul 05 07:14:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Jul 2002 14:14:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 15144 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 14:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2002 14:14:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40019.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.59) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 14:14:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20020705141421.94123.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.137] by web40019.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:14:21 PDT Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <111.14a695e3.2a5620ba@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- samblo@cs.com wrote: > so I post these Url's for the inspection and > information of the readers > here Fascinating story. It seems to me all it really says is (1) Thyssen was a wealthy man, (2) other people wanted to take his money away from him, which tends to be the case if you have any money, and (3) he cleverly prevented them from doing it. Anyone with substantial assets has by definition fended off attempts to seize those assets. Whatever Prescott Bush made out of that is a pittance compared to what somebody will make if one of W's schemes ever gets enacted into law. W wants to take the money from the Social Security Truth Fund and give it to investment bankers in New York, heh, heh. You can write the end of that story yourself. The entire Thyssen fortune would be a drop in the bucket compared to the sums we are talking about here, and the investment bankers need that money badly since they can no longer pay their low level people $25,000,000 bonuses at Christmas and stuff like that. If that scheme ever comes off I am changing careers and going into investment banking! "Investment banking" for the benefit of those not familiar with Wall Street means ordinary people will lose their investments, but the top dogs are going to do some banking and how. The real hoot is that the money that will be sent to New York will be first taken from you at gunpoint. (Social Security contributions are not voluntary.) As for secret cabals, read Eliot Ness' book THE UNTOUCHABLES. Ness claims Chicago was not run by the politicians as most people thought, but by a secret committee of businessmen. For complex reasons they made the decision to bring Al Capone down, and ordered the federal government to put him out of business. As soon as Capone was in jail they had the Prohibition law repealed, ending the bootlegging era altogether. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Jul 05 08:37:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Jul 2002 15:37:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 21433 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2002 15:37:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2002 15:37:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 15:37:27 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.91.235] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id ACD919D00266; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:35:53 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020705102406.00ad6d30@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:31:19 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis In-Reply-To: <20020705141421.94123.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <111.14a695e3.2a5620ba@cs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Recently there was piece in the TV, which in addition pointed out that current SS System includes disability and survivor benefits and if one were to go into open insurance market and buy these coverages, the total costs outweigh any potential benefit that may accrue from investing funds outside. The kind of money the "investment bankers" make is outrageous. There were some cases of attorneys working in the investment banking legal work quit law practice and went into investment banking when they saw the money they can make. Of course there would be defenders of open market who claim that they are being paid what is worth in the open market. mkr At 07:14 AM 7/5/02 -0700, Steve Stubbs wrote: >Whatever Prescott Bush made out of that is a pittance >compared to what somebody will make if one of W's >schemes ever gets enacted into law. W wants to take >the money from the Social Security Truth Fund and give >it to investment bankers in New York, heh, heh. You >can write the end of that story yourself. The entire >Thyssen fortune would be a drop in the bucket compared >to the sums we are talking about here, and the >investment bankers need that money badly since they >can no longer pay their low level people $25,000,000 >bonuses at Christmas and stuff like that. If that >scheme ever comes off I am changing careers and going >into investment banking! "Investment banking" for the >benefit of those not familiar with Wall Street means >ordinary people will lose their investments, but the >top dogs are going to do some banking and how. The >real hoot is that the money that will be sent to New >York will be first taken from you at gunpoint. >(Social Security contributions are not voluntary.) From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Jul 05 17:53:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Jul 2002 00:53:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 58102 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 00:53:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2002 00:53:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 00:53:31 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-14.look.ca ([216.154.45.109] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17Qdp0-0003o0-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 00:53:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3D26405C.111198E4@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 20:57:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Universal Seekers Subject: Zen stories Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Here's some stories that were emailed to me. The sender called them Zen stories. Maybe There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "Maybe," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer. Obsessed Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed. As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out. "Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!" "Brother," the second monk replied, "I set her down on the other side, while you are still carrying her." Ritual When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, a cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. One day the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice. Wooden Coffin A farmer got so old that he couldn't work the fields anymore. So he would spend the day just sitting on the porch. His son, still working the farm, would look up from time to time and see his father sitting there. "He's of no use any more," the son thought to himself, "he doesn't do anything!" One day the son got so frustrated by this, that he built a wooden coffin, dragged it over to the porch, and told his father to get in. Without saying anything, the father climbed inside. After closing the lid, the son dragged the coffin to the edge of the farm where there was a high cliff. As he approached the drop, he heard a light tapping on the lid from inside the coffin. He opened it up. Still lying there peacefully, the father looked up at his son. "I know you are going to throw me over the cliff, but before you do, may I suggest something?" "What is it?" replied the son. "Throw me over the cliff, if you like," said the father, "but save this good wooden coffin. Your children might need to use it." =================== From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Jul 05 19:05:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Jul 2002 02:05:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 56764 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 02:05:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2002 02:05:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 02:05:34 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qex1-0004bW-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 22:05:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3D265091.F25653E6@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 22:06:09 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , Universal Seekers , theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Zen stories References: <3D26405C.111198E4@idirect.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mauri wrote: > Ritual > > When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began > their evening meditation, a cat who lived in the > monastery made such noise that it distracted them. One > day the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during > the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher > died, the cat continued to be tied up during the > meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, > another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. > Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual > teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious > significance of tying up a cat for meditation > practice. Two comments: 1) In systems analysis, that is called confusing the solution with the problem. 2) One day, during a meditation group meeting at the New York Theosophical Society, while my wife and I lived in an apartment above the center, our cat, Thomas, got loose and decided to visit this interesting group of humans. My wife and I were looking for the cat, when we were greeted to the sound of, "Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum.... look! a puddy!" Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Jul 06 01:08:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Jul 2002 08:08:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 2584 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 08:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2002 08:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 08:08:07 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id r.e5.1a579b72 (3965) for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 04:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 04:08:00 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Zen stories To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Speaking of Zen stories, I thought the following might offer a lighter note. << Your Daily Moment of Zen (Modified to reflect contemporary wisdom): 1. Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just leave me the hell alone. 2. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire. 3. It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it. 4. Sex is like air. It's not important unless you aren't getting any. 5. Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted. 6. No one is listening until you fart. 7. Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else. 8. Never test the depth of the water with both feet. 9. If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments. 10. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. 11. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. 12. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day. 13. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it. 14. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. 15. Some days you are the bug; some days you are the windshield. 16. Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time. 17. Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. 18. The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pocket. 19. A closed mouth gathers no foot. 20. Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. 21. There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works. 22. Generally speaking, you aren't learning much when your lips are moving. 23. Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. 24. Never miss a good chance to shut up. 25. We are born naked, wet, and hungry, and get slapped on our ass ... then things get worse . >> In a message dated 07/05/02 10:06:05 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >Mauri wrote: >> Ritual >> >> When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began >> their evening meditation, a cat who lived in the >> monastery made such noise that it distracted them. One >> day the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during >> the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher >> died, the cat continued to be tied up during the >> meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, >> another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. >> Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual >> teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious >> significance of tying up a cat for meditation >> practice. > >Two comments: > >1) In systems analysis, that is called confusing the solution with the >problem. > >2) One day, during a meditation group meeting at the New York >Theosophical Society, while my wife and I lived in an apartment above >the center, our cat, Thomas, got loose and decided to visit this >interesting group of humans. My wife and I were looking for the cat, >when we were greeted to the sound of, "Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme >Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum.... look! a puddy!" > > Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Jul 06 12:23:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Jul 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 30323 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40019.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.59) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 19:23:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20020706192321.13761.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.6] by web40019.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 12:23:21 PDT Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020705102406.00ad6d30@mail.gbronline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > The kind of money the "investment bankers" make is > outrageous. There were > some cases of attorneys working in the investment > banking legal work quit > law practice and went into investment banking when > they saw the money they > can make. Of course there would be defenders of open > market who claim that > they are being paid what is worth in the open > market. I don't begrudge anyone making an infinite amount of money so long as it is not removed from my wallet at gunpoint. One thing most people do not know about the stock market is that no money is created. It merely changes hands. So if there are going to be institutions making money (i.e., removing money from the market to pay salaris, etc.) and a very few individuals making money, there must necessarily be a lot of ignorant people out there losing an equal and opposite amount. If they put their money in of their own free will and then watch it disappear, no problem-o from here. If W has it taken from us without our consent and then sends it to New York where it is then made to disappear, then I do have a problem with that. Of course, the solution to the problem is to move to lower Manhattan and join the Wall Street gang. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Jul 06 13:12:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Jul 2002 20:12:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 3561 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 20:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2002 20:12:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blount.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.226) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 20:12:30 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qvuu-0007Kp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:12:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3D274F14.5760D811@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:12:04 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Holistic Wall Street References: <20020706192321.13761.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > I don't begrudge anyone making an infinite amount of > money so long as it is not removed from my wallet at > gunpoint. One thing most people do not know about the > stock market is that no money is created. It merely > changes hands. So if there are going to be > institutions making money (i.e., removing money from > the market to pay salaris, etc.) and a very few > individuals making money, there must necessarily be a > lot of ignorant people out there losing an equal and > opposite amount. The stock market is not a closed system; new money can enter it. Therefore, a continual influx of new money can make the total money made greater than the total money lost. That was the major problem with the junk-bond takeovers of the 80's. For those who don't know how it worked (although the movie OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY explained it pretty well), an investor (let's call him "Mr. Vulture") finds a company with several divisions, some of which are more profitable than others (we'll call it "Pigeon, Inc."). He creates an investment company (Vulture Investments) whose purpose is to take over Pigeon, Inc. He sells bonds (borrowing money) at high interest rates, and uses the money to buy controlling interest in Pigeon, Inc. But now, as the new company (still called Pigeon, Inc.) has the combined debts of both companies, Pigeon has to pay off the bonds of Vulture Investments, the very money that was used to take over Pigeon! Mr. Vulture then sells off the currently valuable assets of Pigeon, junks the rest, pays off the bonds, and gets whatever is left over from the liquidation value Vulture's shares of Pigeon, without having invested a single penny of his own money. Yet, while he has made a pile of money, the total wealth in the economic system has been reduced, so it is a net loss to the economy. That is how, during the 80's, a few became rich while causing major damage to the economy. What happened in the Internet economy was a mite different. There was a lot of new money entering the market, based on promises. Unfortunately, the promises were based on too high expectations, and numerous companies were competing where there was not really a market for numerous companies (such as web portals and general search engines). So there was a first wave of companies folding because the market just wasn't there (the dotcom collapse of 2000). This caused a secondary wave of failures of companies which were, themselves, quite viable, but got hit either because they served companies that went under, or were victims of loss of investor confidence, and could not weather out the storm. Finally, we're hitting a third wave right now, where large companies which were darlings of the stock market turned out to have been hiding their debits, with insider managers making tremendous amounts of money while the other owners of the company (aka the stockholders) end up losing their shirts (the reason for laws against "insider" trading is that managers are hired by the owners to run the business; they should not be allowed to use their knowledge of the inner workings of the company to make money at the expense of those who own the company). Bart Lidofsky From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Jul 06 17:52:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 00:52:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 6395 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 00:52:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 00:52:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 00:52:28 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.91.35] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A06F6A6800D6; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:50:55 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020706194626.00aed100@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:51:44 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Wall Street In-Reply-To: <20020706192321.13761.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.2.20020705102406.00ad6d30@mail.gbronline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 On the Sunday before the stockmaket fell in 1986, the famous Economist, J K Galbraith was on a talk show. When asked about the what is going on in the economy, he told an interesting story even though I do not think he had any inkling of the impending stock market fall. He stated that shuffling papers do not create wealth and then spoke of an incident. He took a cab from JFK to Manhattan and he asked the cab driver how his business was going. He said that he used to have a lot of business from the stock brokers in the Wall Street and his business currently was tough as the stock brokers are now driving the cabs! mkr At 12:23 PM 7/6/02 -0700, Steve Stubbs wrote: >I don't begrudge anyone making an infinite amount of >money so long as it is not removed from my wallet at >gunpoint. One thing most people do not know about the >stock market is that no money is created. It merely >changes hands. So if there are going to be >institutions making money (i.e., removing money from >the market to pay salaris, etc.) and a very few >individuals making money, there must necessarily be a >lot of ignorant people out there losing an equal and >opposite amount. If they put their money in of their >own free will and then watch it disappear, no >problem-o from here. If W has it taken from us >without our consent and then sends it to New York >where it is then made to disappear, then I do have a >problem with that. > >Of course, the solution to the problem is to move to >lower Manhattan and join the Wall Street gang. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Jul 06 20:43:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 03:43:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 67774 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 03:43:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 03:43:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40003.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 03:43:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20020707034354.84831.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.233.234] by web40003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:43:54 PDT Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 20:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wall Street To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020706194626.00aed100@mail.gbronline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Well said. You probably know Tom Wolf's attempt at a novel, THE BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES, was centered around a Wall Street type who could not make ends meet on a lousy $1,000,000 a year. The fact that the fictional character bore an astonishing resemblance to Ivan Boesky was pure coincidence I am sure. You can think of the stock market as a big bucket if you want to. The theory is, you can take all the money out of the bucket at any time, but you can only do that when it is your turn and you might not want to jump too soon because when you do the game is over. So you and your fellow players take turns putting money in. The pile of money rises higher and higher but everybody gets greedy and is reluctant to end the game. Then someone takes all the money when it is his turn and the rest of the suckers are cleaned out. About the only difference is that whenever there is a transaction in the stock market, as they say on Wall Street the broker makes money, the firm makes money, and two out of three ain't bad. If W can put your tax money in there, I am headed for New York. That scam is going to make 1929, 1987, and 2000, nit ti nebtion the Mississippi Bubble, the South Sea Bubble, and the tulip mania look pathethic by comparison. Just make sure you have a bank account in the Cayman Islands, a passport, and a one way plane ticket out of the country. If your timing is right you will have some rich and very famous people on the plane with you. --- ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > On the Sunday before the stockmaket fell in 1986, > the famous Economist, J K > Galbraith was on a talk show. When asked about the > what is going on in the > economy, he told an interesting story even though I > do not think he had any > inkling of the impending stock market fall. > > He stated that shuffling papers do not create wealth > and then spoke of an > incident. He took a cab from JFK to Manhattan and he > asked the cab driver > how his business was going. He said that he used to > have a lot of business > from the stock brokers in the Wall Street and his > business currently was > tough as the stock brokers are now driving the cabs! > > mkr > > At 12:23 PM 7/6/02 -0700, Steve Stubbs wrote: > >I don't begrudge anyone making an infinite amount > of > >money so long as it is not removed from my wallet > at > >gunpoint. One thing most people do not know about > the > >stock market is that no money is created. It > merely > >changes hands. So if there are going to be > >institutions making money (i.e., removing money > from > >the market to pay salaris, etc.) and a very few > >individuals making money, there must necessarily be > a > >lot of ignorant people out there losing an equal > and > >opposite amount. If they put their money in of > their > >own free will and then watch it disappear, no > >problem-o from here. If W has it taken from us > >without our consent and then sends it to New York > >where it is then made to disappear, then I do have > a > >problem with that. > > > >Of course, the solution to the problem is to move > to > >lower Manhattan and join the Wall Street gang. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Jul 06 21:05:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 04:05:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 82554 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 04:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 04:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tisch.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.157) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 04:05:02 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17R3IC-0002a8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 00:05:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3D27BE1B.9D04D381@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 00:05:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wall Street References: <4.2.2.20020705102406.00ad6d30@mail.gbronline.com> <4.2.2.20020706194626.00aed100@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > On the Sunday before the stockmaket fell in 1986, the famous > Economist, J K Galbraith was on a talk show. When asked about > the what is going on in the economy, he told an interesting story > even though I do not think he had any inkling of the impending stock > market fall. > > He stated that shuffling papers do not create wealth and then > spoke of an incident. He took a cab from JFK to Manhattan and he > asked the cab driver how his business was going. He said that he used > to have a lot of business from the stock brokers in the Wall Street > and his business currently was tough as the stock brokers are now > driving the cabs! I, and a lot of people, made a nice chunk of money over the 1987 crash. It was an artificial dip, caused by too many people (especially large not-for-profits) using the relatively new and not perfected method of programmed trades. Essentially, automatic sell orders were given for stocks when they went below a certain point. A normal dip caused computers to "panic sell", creating the crash (the bond market, on the same day, was at a major high point). It was no secret what happened, and those with cool heads bought up a bunch of undervalued stock the next day, and made out quite well. I was not quite confident enough to buy on margin, but those who did made major profits. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Jul 06 21:12:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 04:12:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 90696 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 04:12:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 04:12:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tisch.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.157) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 04:12:34 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17R3PV-0003R0-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 00:12:33 -0400 Message-ID: <3D27BFE1.EED2E5BD@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 00:13:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wall Street References: <20020707034354.84831.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > If W can put your tax money in there, I am headed for > New York. I wish the politicians would tell a truth which is obvious to anybody who does just a tiny bit of research (and not in "secret sources"; it's all out in the open). Social Security is NOT an investment and pension plan. It's a taxation and welfare plan. The politicians CALL it an investment and pension plan, so that people won't be ashamed to take the money. But the money we pay into Social Security is not going into an investment fund; it's paying TODAY'S recipients. The so-called "Trust Fund" (aka the pocket that the government takes money from to put into other pockets, leaving an IOU in its place) is there in case there's a crash, there's a backup to the taxes. But the life expectency is much higher than it was when Social Security was instituted, and Social Security has been expanded to give welfare from that tax base to the disabled as well as the elderly (and disabled has been expanded to include drug addicts and the like). So, any plan to "invest" the money is garbage. Bart Lidofsky From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jul 07 03:21:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 10:21:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 6982 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 10:21:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 10:21:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 10:21:10 -0000 Received: from pool0338.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.19.83] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17R99m-0005kS-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 03:20:43 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: Nirmasnakayas - Buddhas - Bodhisattvas Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 03:18:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2 Some further statements about Man=92s consciousness and potentials Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Nirmanakaya -- Living, Invisible,=20 Spirits Of The Sages "...those EGOS of great Adepts who have passed away, and are also known as Nirmanakayas;...for whom--since they are beyond illusion--there is no Devachan, and who, having either voluntarily renounced it for the good of mankind, or not yet reached Nirvana, remain invisible on earth...they are re-born over and over again...Who they are, "on earth"--every student of Occult science knows..." SD II 615 The Mahatma is the Higher Manas --=20 Inseparable from the Atma "The real Mahatma is then not his physical body but that higher Manas which is inseparably linked to the Atma and its vehicle (6th principle) -- a union effected by him in a comparatively very short period by passing through the self-evolution laid down by the Occult Philosophy." HPB ART I 293 Adept Work: Assisting all Good Movements=20 and Individuals Q.:-- "What then are the Adepts doing? A.:-- (a) Assisting all good movements by acting on men from behind the scenes through mental influence. (b) Preparing as many men and women who are fit for it so that they may, in their next incarnation, appear in the world as active devotees to the good of the Human Family. (c) Spreading now, through impulses given in many places which must not be mentioned, a philosophy of life which will gradually affect the race mind, and in particular the active, conquering Western peoples, thus preparing the whole people to change and evolve yet further and further until evils disappear and better days and people reappear."=20=20=20 WQJ ARTICLES II 53-4 Nirmanakayas Work -- Their Relations With Us "Nirmanakayas. They are men who have become perfected--who could if they chose reach up to and hold the very highest state of bliss, but who refuse that bliss because it would mean forever to forsake all chance of helping their fellow-men. They can, when the nature of the person is true and aspiring strongly, communicate, if it is necessary to help him. But there is no mistake in these communications. They are personal, meant for that one as direct help. It is the within which induces any outside help that we receive. It is a recognition of the spiritual nature of ourselves and all beings which makes the true condition. It is from the spiritual that the strength comes. And it is for the perfection of humanity that all the Divine Incarnations have labored." RC -- FP p. 258 Manas must be Morally Purified to see=20 the Mahatmas Everywhere "Whoever...wants to see the real Mahatma, must use his intellectual sight. He must so elevate his Manas that its perceptions will be clear and all mists created by Maya must be dispelled. His vision will then be bright and he will see the MAHATMAS wherever he may be, for, being merged into the 6th and the 7th principles, which are ubiquitous and omnipresent, the MAHATMAS may be said to be everywhere." HPB ART I 294 Lighting Up Of Manas ( The Human Mind ) "...divine man dwelt in his animal--though externally human --form; and, if there was instinct in him, no self-consciousness came to enlighten the darkness of the latent 5th principle [Manas]. When moved by the law of Evolution, the Lords of Wisdom infused into him the spark of consciousness, the first feeling it awoke to life and activity was a sense of solidarity, of one-ness with his spiritual creators. As the child's first feeling is for its mother and nurse, so the first aspirations of the awakening consciousness in primitive man were for those whose element he felt within himself, and who yet were outside, and independent of him. Devotion arose out of that feeling, and became the first and foremost motor in his nature; for it is the only one which is natural in our heart, which is innate in us, and which we find alike in human babe and the young of the animal. This feeling of irrepressible, instinctive aspiration in primitive man ...(211) It lives undeniably, and has settled in all its ineradicable strength and power in the Asiatic Aryan heart from the 3rd Race direct through it first "mind-born" sons,--the fruits of Kriyasakti. As time rolled on the holy caste of Initiates produced but rarely, and from age to age, such perfect creatures: beings apart, inwardly, though the same as those who produced them, outwardly...the 3rd primitive race...was called into being, a ready and perfect vehicle for the incarnating denizens of higher spheres, who took forthwith their abodes in these forms born of Spiritual WILL and the natural divine power in man. Its physical frame alone was of time and of life, as it drew its intelligence direct from above. It was the living tree of divine wisdom; and may therefore be likened to the Mundane Tree of the Norse Legend, which cannot wither and die until the last battle of life shall be fought, and while its roots are gnawed all the time by the dragon Niddhogg; for even so, the first and holy son of Kriyasakti had his body gnawed by the tooth of time, but the roots of his inner being remained for ever undecaying and strong, because they grew and expanded in heaven not on earth. He was the first of the FIRST, and he was the seed of all the others. There were other "Sons of Kriyasakti" produced by a second spiritual effort, but the first one has remained to this day the Seed of divine Knowledge, the One and the Supreme among the terrestrial "Sons of Wisdom." SD I 210-211 The Spirit in Man "...human consciousness" is but a Ray of the Divine. Our Manas, or Ego, proceeds from, and is the Son (figuratively) of Mahat. Vaivaswatta Manu (the Manu of our fifth race and Humanity in general) is the chief personified representative of the thinking Humanity of the fifth Root-race; and therefore he is represented as the eldest Son of the Sun and an Agnishwatta Ancestor...Thought in its action on human brains is endless. Thus Manu is, and contains the potentiality of all the thinking forms which will be developed on earth from this particular source. In the esoteric teaching he is the beginning of this earth , and from him and his daughter Ila humanity is born; he is a unity which contains all the pluralities and their modifications. Every manvantara has its own Manu, and from this Manu the various Manus or rather all the Manasa of the Kalpas will proceed...he may be compared to the white light which contains all the other rays, giving birth to them by passing through the prism of differentiation and evolution." TRAN. 99 Progressive Initiations "In a secret work upon the Mysteries and the rites of Initiation, in which very rough but correct prints are given of the sacramental postures, and of the trials to which the postulant was subjected, the following details are found: (1) The neophyte--representing the Sun, as "Sahasrakirana" [GLOS 284] "he of the 1,000 rays"--is shown kneeling before the "Hierophant." The latter is in the act of cutting off seven locks of the neophyte's long hair, (fn:--...the esoteric truth that the 7 locks symbolize the septenary physical or terrestrial man, thus cut off and separated from the spiritual...) and in the following-- (2)--illustration, the postulant's bright crown of golden beams is thrown off, and replaced by a wreath of sharp ligneous spines, symbolizing the loss. (fn.:--...Sanjana--pure spiritual conscience--is the inner perception of the neophyte (or chela) and Initiate; the scorching of it by the too ardent beams of the Sun being symbolical of the 7 cardinal sins, and as to the 7 cardinal virtues--to be gained by the Sakridagamin (the candidate "for new birth"), they could be attained by him only through severe trial and suffering)... In order to become a "Perfect One," the Sakridagamin ("he who will receive new birth," lit.) had, among other trials, to descend into Patala, the "nether world," after which process only he could hope to become an "Anagamin"--one who will be reborn no more." The full Initiate had the option of either entering this 2nd Path by appearing at will in the world of men under a human form, or he could choose to first rest in the world of Gods (the Devachan of the Initiates), and then only be reborn on this our earth. Thus, the next stage shows the postulant preparing for this journey. (3) Every kind of temptation--we have no right to enumerate these or speak of them--was being placed on his way. If he came out victorious over these, then the further Initiation was proceeded with; if he fell---it was delayed, often entirely lost for him. These rites lasted 7 days." HPB ARTICLES II 528-9 =09 Bodha: - Wisdom -- Buddhi: -=20 Cognition & Discrimination =09 "Bodha means the innate possession of divine intellect or "understanding;" "Buddha," the acquirement of it by personal efforts and merit; while Buddhi is the faculty of cognizing the channel through which divine knowledge reaches the "Ego," the discernment of good and evil, "divine conscience" also; and "Spiritual Soul," which is the vehicle of Atma. "When Buddhi absorbs our EGO-tism (destroys it) with all its Vikara, Avalokiteshvara becomes manifested to us, and Nirvana, or Mukti, is reached," "Mukti" being the same as Nirvana, i.e., freedom from the trammels of "Maya" or illusion. "Bodhi" is likewise the name of a particular state of trance condition, called Samadhi, during which the subject reaches the culmination of spiritual knowledge." SD I xix Nirmanakaya - Bodhisattva "Remember, thou that fightest for man's liberation,* each failure is success and each sincere attempt wins its reward in time." * This is an allusion to a well-known belief in the East...that every additional Buddha or Saint is a new soldier in the army of those who work for the liberation, or salvation of mankind. In Northern Buddhist countries, where the doctrine of the Nirmanakayas--those Bodhisattvas who renounce well-earned Nirvana or the Dharmakaya vesture (both of which shut them out forever from the world of men) in order to invisibly assist mankind and lead it finally to Paranirvana--is taught, every new Bodhisattva, or initiated great Adept, is called the "liberator of mankind." VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 69 "A Bodhisattva is, in the hierarchy, less than a "perfect Buddha." In the exoteric parlance these two are very much confused. Yet the innate and right popular perception, owing to that self-sacrifice has placed a Bodhisattva higher in its reverence than a Buddha. This same popular reverence calls "Buddhas of Compassion" those Bodhisattvas who, having reached the rank of an Arhat (i.e., have completed the fourth or seventh Path), refuse to pass into the Nirvanic state or "don the Dharmakaya robe and cross to the other shore," as it would then become beyond their power to assist men even so little as Karma permits. They prefer to remain invisibly (in Spirit, so to speak) in the world, and contribute towards man's salvation by influencing them to follow the Good Law, i.e., lead them on the Path of Righteousness..."=09 VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 77 Final Choice of Nirvana or Renunciation=20 (as a Nirmanakaya) "... we know that at a certain period of progress, far above this sublunary world, the adept reaches a point when he may, if he so chooses, formulate a wish that he might be one of the Devas, one of the bright host of beings of whose pleasure and glory and power we can have no idea. The mere formulation of the wish is enough. At that moment he becomes one of the Devas. He then for a period of time which in its extent is incalculable, enjoys that condition--then what? Then he has to begin again low down on the scale, in a mode and for a purpose which it would be useless to detail here, because it could not be understood..." WQJ ARTICLES I pp 8-9 "Nirmanakaya...is that ethereal form which one would assume when leaving his physical he would appear in his astral body--having in addition all the knowledge of an Adept. The Bodhisattva develops it in himself as he proceeds on the Path. Having reached the goal and refused its fruition, he remains on Earth, as an Adept; and when he dies, instead of going into Nirvana, he remains in that glorious body he has woven for himself, invisible to uninitiated mankind, to watch over and protect it...Thus, to be enabled to help humanity, an Arhat who has won the right to Nirvana, "renounces the Dharmakaya body" in mystic parlance; keeps, of the Sambhogakaya, only the great and complete knowledge, and remains in his Nirmanakaya body. The Esoteric School teaches that Gautama Buddha, with several of his Arhats, is such a Nirmanakaya higher than whom, on account of the great renunciation and sacrifice for mankind, there is none known." VOICE 77-8 Individuality Persists Through any Pralaya or Maha-pralaya to the Next Manvantara "...I maintain as an occultist on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of the Monad...the individuality of the spirit-soul...is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm...however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya...yet, when it ends, the same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths (266) than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths."=09=09 HPB ARTICLES III 265-6 Man's Immortal Manvantaric Body --=20 Thinking, Acting, Recording "We should remember that we were self-conscious beings when this planet began; some even were self-conscious when this solar system began; for there is a difference in degree of development among human beings. If the planet or solar system began in a state of primordial substance or nebulous matter ... then we must have had bodies of that state of substance, In that finest substance there are all the possibilities of every grade of matter, and hence it is that within the true body of primordial matter all the changes of coarser and coarser substance have been brought about; and within that body is all experience. Our birth is within that body--a body of a nature which does not change throughout the whole Manvantara. Each one has such a body of finest substance, of the inner nature, which is the real container for the individual. In it he lives and moves and has his being, and yet even the great glory and fineness of that body is not the man; it is merely the highest vesture of the Soul. The Real Man we are is the Man that was, that is, and that ever shall be, for whom the hour will never strike--Man, the thinker; Man, the perceiver--always thinking, continually acting...We are that One Spirit, each standing in a vast assemblage of beings in this great universe, seeing and knowing what he can through the instrument he has. We are the Trinity--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; or, in theosophical parlance, we are Atma, Buddhi, and Manas. Atma is the One Spirit, not belonging to any one, but to all. Buddhi is the sublimated experience of all the past. Manas is the thinking power, the thinker, the man, the immortal man. There is no man without the Spirit..."=09 RC -- FP p. 237 Man Makes his own Immortality "...It is owing to this rebellion of intellectual life against the morbid inactivity of pure spirit, that we are what we are--self-conscious, thinking men, with the capabilities and attributes of Gods in us, for good as much as for evil. Hence the REBELS are our saviours. Let the philosopher ponder well over this, and more than one mystery will become clear to him. It is only by the attractive force of the contrasts that the two opposites--Spirit and Matter--can be cemented on Earth, and, smelted in the fire of self-conscious experience and suffering, find themselves wedded in Eternity..." SD II 103 "Perfected Souls" -- Stand as Examples: -=20=20 We Have to Emulate "No one can know anything for another. Each one has to know for himself. Each one has to do his own learning. The object of Theosophy is to teach man what he is, to show man what he is, and to present to him the necessity of his knowing for himself. No vicarious atonement, no vicarious transmission of knowledge, is possible. But the direction in which knowledge lies can be pointed out; the steps which will lead us in that direction may be shown, as can be done only by those who have passed that way before...It is the doctrine of Krishna, of Buddha, of Jesus, no less than the doctrine of H.P.B... The very fact of suffering is a blessing. Karma and Reincarnation show us that suffering is brought about by wrong thought and action; through our sufferings we may be brought to a realization that a wrong course has been pursued. We learn through our sufferings. Life is one grand school of Being, and we have come to that stage where it is right for us to learn to understand the purpose of existence; to grasp our whole nature firmly; to use every means in our power in every direction...to bring the whole of our nature into accord, so that our lower instrument may be "in line" and thus more and more fully reflect our divine natures."=09 RC -- FP p. 263 How to "Perfect" Ourselves "There is no difference between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the Buddha, although those teachings are recorded in different languages and an interval of six hundred years separated the two great Teachers. What is true of these two is likewise true of all the other many Saviours of different times and peoples--they all taught the same fundamental ideas. This fact suggests that there is a body of Men, of perfected men, product of past civilizations and evolution, our Elder Brothers, in fact, who have acquired and are Custodians of the knowledge and experience gained through aeons of time. Their knowledge is actually the Science of Life, for it enters into every department of existence, of nature...We have each of us the same power to know that is Theirs. But they have ex-tended the faculties of the instruments which they possess. They have improved what they have. They have better brains. They have better bodies. How did they acquire them? By fulfilling every duty which faced them, regardless of what came to themselves. They thought nothing of acquiring power and knowledge for themselves; they thought only of gaining power that they might expend it for the benefit of every living creature. in so doing they opened the doors to the full play of the power of the Spirit within... The great work of evolution proceeds from within outwards. The Soul is the Perceiver; it looks directly on ideas. The action of the will is through ideas. The ideas give the direction. Small ideas, small force; large ideas, large force; the Force itself is illimitable, for it is the force of Spirit, infinite and exhaustless. What we lack are universal ideas..." RC -- FP p. 269-270 We Have to Take Responsibility for Self-Reform=20 and Self-Training "Saviour after Saviour has come to the earth for our benefit, but no one can give us any more benefit than to point to the truths that have been given all down the ages. We must take advantage of that knowledge and advance out of the state in which we have placed ourselves. No Saviour can save us. No God can protect us. No devil can torment us. For both God and the devil are within. The devil is the misunderstanding of our nature...It is the God in us which demands self-advancement, self-induced and self-devised exertions, and the full acceptance of responsibility." RC--FP p. 300 "...to realize our own responsibility to all others and to act in accordance is to have become unselfish, and to have done away with the prime cause of sin, sorrow and suffering...We must take care of each other, not of ourselves...truth, as we know, always explains." RC--FP p. 308 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Comments and Questions gladly answered [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jul 07 03:25:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 10:25:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 87450 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 10:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 10:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 10:25:56 -0000 Received: from pool0338.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.19.83] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17R9EY-0007gg-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 03:25:39 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 03:23:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3 Some more important considerations on human evolution Dallas ================================= We are Never 'Left Alone," or "Abandoned" by the Adepts "Never have we been left alone. Always there are beings greater in evolution than we, who return to this field of physical existence to help us, to wake us up to a perception of our natures. Such has been the mission of all Divine Incarnations down the ages. Those beings have come and lived among us, have become "in all things like unto us," as was said of Jesus, in order that the human words They spoke should be words we would understand. They meet us on the basis of our ideas and try to clarify them and set them in a true course. They can do nothing to stop what (338) we have done and what we want to do; They can not interfere; but They can help us to see the right direction, if we are so willed...Always They try to help us, even when we are proceeding along wrong lines and bringing upon ourselves the suffering such wrong lines entail--even then They try to direct the results into a better channel..." RC -- FP p. 337-8 Chrestos and Christos "One has to die in chrestos, i.e., kill one's personality and its passions, to blot out every idea of separateness from one's "Father," the Divine Spirit in man' to become one with the eternal and absolute Life and Light (SAT) before one can reach the glorious state of Christos, the regenerated man, the man in spiritual freedom." HPB ARTICLES III 190 fn "...Christ--the true esoteric Saviour--is no man, but the Divine Principle in every human being. He who strives to resurrect the Spirit crucified in him by his own terrestrial passions, and buried deep in the "sepulchre" of his sinful flesh; he who has the strength to roll back the stone of matter from the door of his own inner sanctuary, he has the risen Christ in him. The "Son of Man" is no child of the bond-woman--flesh, but verily of the free-woman--Spirit, the child of man's own deeds, and the fruit of his own spiritual labour." HPB ARTICLES III 168-9 "We may learn from the Gospel according to Luke, that the "worthy" were those who had been initiated into the mysteries of the Gnosis..."those who knew that they could die no more, being equal to the angels as sons of God and sons of the Resurrection." In other words, they were the great adepts of whatever religion; and the words apply to all those, who, without being Initiates, strive and succeed, through personal efforts to live the life and to attain the naturally ensuing spiritual illumination in blending their personality--(the "Son") with (the "Father"), their individual divine Spirit, the God within them. This "resurrection" can never be monopolized by the Christians, but is the spiritual birth-right of every human being endowed with soul and spirit, whatever his religion may be. Such individual is a Christ-man. On the other hand, those who choose to ignore the Christ (principle) within themselves, must die unregenerate heathens--baptism, sacraments, lip-prayers, and belief in dogmas notwithstanding." HPB ARTICLES III 176 The Path of the Individuality "H.P.B. said, "Do not follow me nor my path; follow the Path I show, the Masters who are behind." [HPB ARTICLES I 123] This she knew to be the safe course for all, for each one will judge of the words and deeds of a personality from his own standpoint and understanding, some under-rating, some exaggerating, and some with indifference...there is recognition of those who are traveling the same path, and in that recognition, there is comfort and help which extends from the smallest to the greatest--a great band of brothers which includes the Masters as the Guides and the Consummation. "Whosoever does it unto the least of these, does it unto me." RC -- FP. p. 151-2 Avatara and Siddha Purusha "A Siddha Purusha (perfect man) is like an archaeologist who removes the dust and lays open an old well which has been covered up by ages of disuse. The Avatara, on the other hand, is like an engineer who sinks a new well in a place where there was no water before. Great Men give salvation to those only who have the waters of piety hidden in themselves, but the Avatara saves him too whose heart is devoid of love and dry as a desert." RC -- FP p. 151-2 Divine Incarnations are Volunteers -- Renouncers of Bliss "...those who of their own free will enter bodies to help humanity pass through them like any human being, but are not involved in them. They feel like any human being, and go through much more than most, so that there may be fresh in their bodily experience all feelings that afflict or ease humanity. Their grief--if it may be called so--is over the inability of humans to understand because of the purely personal elements which prevail in mankind. "Masters feel pain but are not disturbed by it." That feeling is sympathy--a feeling with the condition. They know what any one feels under the circumstances, but They also know that the so-called sufferings of others are not due to the circumstances, but to a false attitude toward them...(195) The pain we feel most in mental pain..." RC -- FP p. 194-5 Divine Incarnations:-- Jesus & Buddha -- Their Missions "I produce myself among creatures" has reference to voluntary and conscious incarnation of high spiritual beings--avatars, saviours of the people --including not only the incarnation itself but the influence of a spiritual kind that attends the being...The Gita says that They come "whenever there is an insurrection of vice and injustice in the world." There is an analogy between this and what was hinted about earthquakes by WQJ, who wrote at the time of an earthquake that some soul of use had been born...There is reason to think that the mission of Jesus was a minor one, being in a falling cycle, and that it was not so much to disclose as to cover up the avenues to occult knowledge, so that the following times of the decadence of spirituality should not have dangerous weapons left for selfish, unprincipled and ignorant people to use; hence he accentuated ethics. This does not mean that the being known as Jesus was inferior to the one known as Buddha. They might have been one and the same being, in reality. The statement is that the "missions" or efforts were of a different nature because of the different cycles and peoples...We cannot judge of the nature of any of these great incarnations, to the extent of saying that one is superior to the other...Allied to our period, if we consider that the quality of the cycle varies in importance, and, consequently, in the degree of the being needed at any time, we find the conjunction of the cycles above spoken of points to a most important period, and consequently, to important "beings"--which may give us a clue to what the Messengers HPB and WQJ really were. Other periods of less importance bring incarnations of probationary chelas who are on their trial." RC -- FP p. 201-2 Innate - Inherent Ideas from "Planetary Spirits" "Up to the period marked by the first earthly King called Ikshwaku, the Ruler was a spiritual Being whom all men knew to be such, for his power, glory, benevolence, and wisdom were evident. He lived an immense number of years, and taught men not only Yoga but also arts and sciences. The ideas implanted then, having been set in motion by one who knew all the laws, remain as inherent ideas to this day...(105) They are preserved by the uneducated masses, who, having no scholastic theories to divert their minds, keep up what is left of the succession of ideas." GITA NOTES p. 104-5 "Alone the adepts, i.e., the embodied spirits--are forbidden by our wise and intransgressible laws to completely subject to themselves another and weaker will,--that of free born man. The latter mode of proceeding is the favorite one resorted to by the "Brothers of the Shadow," the Sorcerers, the Elementary Spooks, and, as an isolated exception--by the highest Planetary (41) Spirits, those, who can no longer err. But those appear on Earth but at the origin of every new human kind; at the junction of, and close of the two ends of the great cycle. And, they remain with man no longer than the time required for the eternal truths they teach to impress themselves so forcibly upon the plastic minds or the new race as to warrant them from being lost or entirely forgotten in ages hereafter, by the forthcoming generations. The mission of the planetary Spirits is but to strike the KEY-NOTE OF TRUTH. Once he has directed the vibration of the latter to run its course uninterruptedly along the catenation of that race and to the end of the cycle--the denizen of the highest inhabited sphere disappears from the surface of our planet--till the following "resurrection of flesh." The vibrations of the Primitive Truth are what your philosophers name "innate ideas." M.L. 40-1 "...Truth is One, and cannot admit of diametrically opposite views; and pure Spirits who see it as it is, with the veil of matter entirely withdrawn from it cannot err. Now, if we allow of different aspects or portions of the Whole Truth being visible to different agencies or intelligences, each under various conditions, as for example various portions of the one landscape develop themselves to various persons at various distances and from various standpoints--if we admit the fact of...individual Brothers for instance endeavoring to develop the Egos of different individuals, without subjecting entirely their wills to their own (as it is forbidden) but by availing themselves of their physical, moral, and intellectual idiosyncrasies; if we add the countless kosmical influences which distort and deflect all efforts to achieve definite purposes; if we remember, moreover, the direct hostility of the Brethren of the Shadow always on the watch to perplex and haze the neophyte's brain, I think we shall have no difficulty in understanding how even a definite spiritual advance may to a certain extent lead different individuals to apparently different conclusions and theories." M.L. 49 Total Evolution : -- The Individual Choice for the Goal -- Spiritual Training "The process of evolution up to reunion with the Divine is and includes successive elevation from rank to rank of power and usefulness. The most exalted beings still in the flesh are known as Sages, Rishis, Brothers, Masters. Their great functions being the preservation at all times, and when cyclic laws permit, the extension of spiritual knowledge and influence. As to the process of spiritual development, Theosophy teaches: 1. That the essence of the process lies in the securing of supremacy to the highest, the spiritual, element of man's nature. 2. That this is attained along 4 lines, among others, -- A. The entire eradication of selfishness in all forms, and the cultivation of broad, generous sympathy in, and effort for the good of others. B. The absolute cultivation of the inner, spiritual man by meditation, by reaching to and communion with the Divine [within], and by exercise of the kind described by Patanjali, i.e., incessant striving to an ideal end. C. The control of fleshly appetites and desires, all lower, material interests being deliberately subordinated to the behests of the spirit. D. The careful performance of every duty belonging to one's station in life, without desire for reward, leaving results for Divine law. 3. That while the above is incumbent on and practicable by all religiously disposed men, a yet higher plane of spiritual attainment is conditioned (26) upon a specific course of training, physical, intellectual and spiritual, by which the internal faculties are first aroused and then developed. 4. That an extension of this process is reached in Arhatship, Mahatmaship, or the states of Rishis, Sages and Dhyan Chohans, which are all exalted stages, attained by laborious self-discipline and hardship protracted through possibly many incarnations, and with many degrees of initiation and preferment, beyond which are yet other stages ever approaching the Divine. As to the rationale of spiritual development it asserts: 1. That the process takes place entirely within the individual himself, the motive, the effort, and the result proceeding from his own inner nature, along the lines of self-evolution. 2. That still more is gained by a career of duty, piety and beneficence. 3. That a still greater advance is attained by the attentive and devoted use of the means to spiritual culture heretofore stated. 4. That every race and individual of it reaches in evolution a period known as "the moment of choice," when they decided for themselves their future by a deliberate and conscious choice between eternal life and death, and that this right of choice is the peculiar appanage of the free soul. It cannot be exercised until the man has realized the soul within him, and until that soul has attained some measure of self-consciousness in the body. The moment of choice is not a fixed period of time; it is made up of all moments. It cannot come unless all previous lives have led up to it. For the race as a whole it has not yet come. Any individual can hasten the advent of this period for himself under the previously stated law of the ripening of Karma. Should he then fail to choose right he is not wholly condemned, for the economy of nature provides that he shall again and again have the opportunity of choice when the moment arrives for the whole race..." WQJ -- AN EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY, p. 25-27 "Failures" of Humanity -- Further Opportunities "After this period the race, having blossomed, tends towards its dissolution. A few individuals of it will have outstripped its progress and attained Adeptship or Mahatmaship. The main body, who have chosen aright, but who have not attained salvation, pass into the subjective condition, there to await the influx of the human life wave into the next globe, which they are the first souls to people; the deliberate choosers of evil, whose lives are passed in great spiritual wickedness (for evil done for the sheer love of evil per se), sever the connection with the Divine Spirit, or the Monad, which forever abandons the human Ego. Such Egos pass into the misery of the "8th sphere," as far as we understand, there to remain until the separation between what they had thus cultivated and the personal Ishwara or divine spark is complete...At the next Manvantara that Divine Spark will probably begin again the long evolutionary journey, being cast into the stream of life at the source and passing upward again through all the lower forms. So long as the connection with the Divine Monad is not severed, this annihilation of personality cannot take place. Something of that personality will always remain attached to the immortal Ego. Even after such severance the human being may live on, a man among men--a soulless being. This disappointment, so to call if, of the Divine Spark by depriving it of its chosen vehicle constitutes the "sin against the Holy Ghost," which its very nature forbade it to pardon, because it cannot continue an association with principles which have become degraded and vitiated in the absolute sense, so that they no longer respond to cyclic or evolutionary impulses, but, weighed by their own nature, sink to the lowest depths of matter. The connection once broken, cannot in the nature of Being be resumed. But innumerable opportunities offer themselves throughout the dissolving process, which lasts thousands of years..." WQJ -- EPITOME 27-28 Sacrifice of Spiritual Beings for Benefiting Matter "...the surname Christos is based on, and the story of the Crucifixion derived from, events that preceded it. Everywhere, in India as in Egypt, in Chaldea as in Greece, all these legends were built upon one and the same primitive type; the voluntary sacrifice of the logoi--the rays of the one Logos, the direct manifested emanation from the One ever-concealed Infinite and Unknown--whose rays incarnated in mankind. They consented to fall into matter, and are, therefore, called the "Fallen Ones." HPB ART III 189 Regaining Spiritual Freedom "One has to die in Chrestos, i.e., kill one's personality and its passions, to blot out every idea of separateness from one's "Father," the Divine Spirit in man; to become one with the eternal and absolute Life and Light (SAT) before one can reach the glorious state of Christos, the regenerated man, the man in spiritual freedom." HPB ART III 190fn Descent Into Hell or Hades "In esoteric philosophy, this going down into the pit has the most mysterious significance. The Spirit "Christos" or rather the "Logos" (read LOGOI), is said to "go down into the pit," when it incarnates in flesh, is born as a man. After having robbed the Elohim (or gods) of their secret, the pro-creating "fire of life," the Angels of Light are shown cast down into the pit or abyss of matter, called Hell, or the bottomless pit, by the kind theologians. This, in Cosmogony and Anthropology. During the Mysteries, however, it is the Chrestos, neophyte (as man), etc., who had to descend into the crypts of Initiation and trials; and finally, during the "Sleep of Siloam" or the final trance condition, during the hours of which the new Initiate has the last and final mysteries of being divulged to him. Hades, Scheol, or Patala, are all one. The same takes place in the East now, as took place 2,000 years ago in the West, during the MYSTERIES." HPB ART III 192fn First Steps in Manifestation and Evolution "Matter or substance is septenary within our World, as it is so beyond it. Moreover, each of its states or principles is graduated into seven degrees of density." S D I 289 "It is that LIGHT which condenses into the forms of the "Lords of Being"--the first and highest of which are, collectively JIVATMA or Pratyagatma (GLOS. 261 - ALAYA)...From these downwards--formed from the ever consolidating waves of that light, which becomes on the objective plane gross matter--proceed the numerous hierarchies of the Creative Forces, some formless, others having their own distinctive form." SD II 33-4 "Having sprung into being under the quickening influence of the uncreated beam, the reflection of the great Central Sun that radiates on the shores of the river of Life, it is the inner principle in them [the Beings of Hierarchies] which belong to the waters of immortality, while its differentiated clothing is as perishable as man's body." SD I 275-6 "The hosts of these Sons of Light and "Mind-born Sons" of the first manifested Ray of the UNKNOWN ALL, are the very root of spiritual man." SD I 106 "...an absolute consciousness, "Adi-Buddhi"; and the Buddhist philosopher knows that there are Planetary Spirits, the "Dhyan Chohans."... If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings--the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy--are the direct reflex of the ONE LIGHT, yet men are far removed from these, since the whole of the visible Kosmos consists of "self-produced beings, the creatures of Karma." ... they teach that only "two things are (objectively) eternal, namely Akasa and Nirvana;" and that these are ONE in reality, and but a maya when divided." SD I 635-6 Planetary Powers and Spirits "...to the eye of the Seer, the higher Planetary Powers appear under two aspects: the subjective--as influences--, and the objective--as mystic FORMS, which under Karmic law, become a Presence, Spirit and Matter being ONE, ... Spirit is matter on the seventh plane; matter is Spirit--on the lowest point of its cyclic activity; and both -- are MAYA." SD I 633 "The Planetary Spirits are the informing spirits of the Stars in general, and of the Planets especially. They rule the destinies of men who are all born under one or other of their constellations; the 2nd and 3rd groups pertaining t other systems have the same functions, and all rule various departments of Nature...guardian deities who preside over the 8 points of the compass...Loka-Palas...the Lipika...are the Spirits of the Universe, whereas the Builders are only our own planetary deities. The former belong to the most occult portion of Cosmogenesis...the Lipika are connected with Karma--being its direct Recorders...the Lipika are concerned with Humanity's hereafter." SD I 128, 126 The Eternal Man "...the true esoteric meaning is that most of them (the Agnishwatta Pitris) were destined to incarnate as the Egos of the forthcoming crop of Mankind. The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas; the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual self-conscious Egotism--in the higher spiritual sense. The ancient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of the Sutratma, which is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher Ego are strung...these beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding Maha-Manvantaras--ages of incalculable duration..." SD II 79 "...from the Sun to the vital heat of the meanest organic being--the world of Form and Existence is an immense chain, whose links are all connected." SD I 604 Evolution of the Immortal Man "It is the Spiritual evolution of the inner, immortal man that forms the fundamental tenet in the Occult Sciences...the ONE Universal Life, independent of matter...and...the individual intelligences that animate the various manifestations of this Principle...The ONE Life is closely related to the one law which governs the World of Being--KARMA." SD I 634 Final Initiation "Every Buddha meets at his last initiation all the great adepts who reached Buddhahood during the preceding ages...every class of adepts has its own bond of spiritual communion which knits them together...The only possible and effectual way of entering into such brotherhood...is by bringing oneself within the influence of the Spiritual light which radiates from one's own Logos...such communion is only possible between persons whose souls derive their life and sustenance from the same divine RAY, and that, as seven distinct rays radiate from the 'Central Spiritual Sun,' all adepts and Dhyan Chohans are divisible into 7 classes, each of which is guided, controlled, and overshadowed by one of the 7 forms or manifestations of the divine wisdom." (S. Rao quoted - THEOSOPHIST, AUG. 1886) SD I 574 SEVEN-FOLD GROUP OF DHYAN CHOHANS - WATCHERS OVER EVOLUTION "There are 7 chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans...the primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity, occultism teaches, is divided into 7 distinct groups and their sub-divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical (fn) ...(FN) Hence the 7 chief planets, the spheres of the indwelling 7 spirits, under each of which is born one of the human groups which is guided and influenced thereby. There are only 7 planets (specially connected with this earth), and 12 houses...countless...each of which varieties is born under one of the 7 planets and one of the said countless planetary combinations." SD I 573 & fn "...'the MIND'...the collective body of Dhyan Chohans, we say--began to work upon and communicated to it motion and order..." SD I 595 "The hosts of these Sons of Light and "Mind-born Sons" of the first manifested Ray of the UNKNOWN ALL, are the very root of spiritual man." SD I 106 "...the 7 wise ones (rays of wisdom, Dhyanis) fashion 7 paths (or lines as also Races in another sense)...they are primarily beams of light falling on the paths leading to wisdom...the 7 Rays which fall free from the macrocosmic centre, the 7 principles in the metaphysical, the 7 Races in the physical sense." SD II 191 fn "It is then the "Seven Sons of Light"--called after their planets (by the rabble) often identified with them--namely Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars, Venus...the Sun and Moon, which are...our heavenly Parents, or "Father," synthetically...the 4 exoteric planets, and the 3 others...were the heavenly bodies in direct astral and psychic communication with the Earth its Guides, and Watchers--morally and physically...their "Regents" or Rectors with our Monads and spiritual faculties." SD I 575 "The 7 Beings in the Sun are the 7 Holy Ones, Self-born from the inherent power in the matrix of Mother substance. it is they who send the 7 Principal Forces, called rays, which at the beginning of Pralaya will center into 7 new Suns for the next Manvantara. The energy from which they spring into conscious existence in every Sun, is what some people call Vishnu (fn) which is the Breath of ABSOLUTENESS. (FN) In the same manner as a man approaches a mirror placed upon a stand, beholds in it his own image, so the energy or reflection of Vishnu (the Sun) is never disjointed but remains in the Sun as in a mirror that is there stationed."(Vishnu Purana) SD I 290 INTELLIGENCE INNATE TO ALL FORMS "The essential faculty possessed by all the cosmic and terrestrial elements, of generating within themselves a regular and harmonious series of results, a concatenation of causes and effects is an irrefutable proof that they are either animated by an extra or intra INTELLIGENCE, or conceal such within or behind the manifested veil...Newton...recognized fully the limits that separate the action of natural Forces from that of the INTELLIGENCES that set the innumerable laws into order and action... To become complete and comprehensible, a cosmological theory has to start with a primordial Substance diffused throughout boundless Space, of an intellectual and divine Nature. That substance must be the Soul and Spirit, the Synthesis and 7th Principle of the manifested Kosmos, and to serve as a spiritual Upadhi to this, there must be the 6th, its vehicle--primordial physical matter...though its nature must for ever escape our limited normal senses." SD I 594 ================= Comments and questions gladly considered [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Jul 07 04:08:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 11:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 82377 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 11:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:07:59 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C08795EF6BF for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:07:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004a01c225a5$f6521040$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> <008f01c2235c$fbaa4a80$b0de603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:03:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all, Interesting comment in the below from you Frank. I won't say I disagree. But what was it you disagreed with on my part ? Frank wrote in the below: "I heartly argree with what Morten and mkr comment below." Can you help me out ? from Sufilight with wonders and moving movements... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis > I heartly argree with what Morten and mkr comment below. > Yes, the early theosophists were not politically correct at their times. > When HPB noticed that a supernational organization was in attempt to dest= roy > the nationality of India she went there and founded a national movement t= o > counteract these attacks. > When she noticed that these black forces were in attempt to take over Lon= don > she moved there and established her headquarters there to counteract thes= e > attacks, although the dark powers banned her magazine Lucifer from all sh= ops > on which they had a monopoly. > When Katherine Tingley notived that these evil forces were in attempt to > take over USA and counteract the policy of Washington and Lincoln she > supported the national movement of Edward Bellamy which was also supporte= d > by HPB as can be seen from her comment in her "Key". > But in the last consequence KT seems to have been not overall success as = the > "invisible government" (US Pres. Th. Roosevelt) over the Warburgs and > Rotschilds was able in 1913 to take complete control over the US. > But I think it was not a personal failure for KT, the reason why she has = had > not the success which would have been necessary to ban the evil forces wa= s > the bad condition of the Theos. Movement and there vorious counterforces > from within who fightet against her policy, although she was elected by > 5,000 delegates present at convention who represented the theosophists th= e > world over. > In his 1912 election campaign Theodore Roosevelt said (in my humble > retransl.): "Behind the visible goverment there is sitting a invisible > government on her throne, which is not responsible to the citizens and > recognizes no responsibility. It is the task of the the statesman to dest= roy > this invisible government, this godless alliance between corrupt business > and corrupt politics." >=20 > I think was Roosevelt said is the same as HPB said in her "Key", but toda= y > we see that this corrupt policy is not limited to the USA alone, it has > spread around the world after several plots succeeded and today we have n= ext > to no free nation anymore. Nearly all nations are ritual slaughtered by t= he > background illuminati. >=20 > MKR, you are right. Theosophists and the TS's should stand up and speak o= ut > loud. But until today I have heard nothing, either from Pasadena, Adyar o= r > ULT. I think they are either infiltrated by the background powers or they > have decided to go the Prateyka way and are satisfied with themselves tha= t > have the truth and nothing as the truth and the rest of the world my go n= ow > into ARMAGEDDON. In either way the official policy of all 3 so-called > "theosophical" organizations is not the way of HPB. > Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:47 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis >=20 >=20 > At 06:31 PM 7/2/02 +0200, Morten Sufilight wrote: > >Theosophy at the sideline ? >=20 > Right question. > In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues > relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which > were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. >=20 > May be it is time for theosophists to stand up and do what they can to > alleviate those suffering masses. >=20 > This can be done concurrent with other studies and discussions and > spiritual practices. >=20 > mkr >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Jul 07 04:29:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 11:29:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 68331 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:29:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 11:29:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:29:56 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id F07A55EE397 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:29:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005801c225a9$078bd320$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> <009301c2235d$5848ec60$b0de603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:25:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all, Thanks Frank - although I probably won't by ALL the books they have=20 at the mentioned link : http://www.bender-publishing.com/ from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis > >Hi Frank and all, > > > >I agree a lot on the below Frank. > >Do you have a link or some documentation on this statement ?: > >"Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that." >=20 > Morten, I wrote my information from the books I have. I don't surf so muc= h > because it is a little bit expensive here. > But you could take a look to the publisher at > http://www.bender-publishing.com/ . > I check this books since a longer time and until now they seem to be true= , > that means I have not find until no a real error. > Frank >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 04:59:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 93987 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 11:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:59:56 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67Bxqg03660 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:52 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-177.blinx.de [62.96.222.177]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67Bxpc03649 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:51 +0200 Message-ID: <004e01c225ad$d3f342a0$b1de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> <00f601c2237c$5de68320$b0de603e@captaink> <3D24831D.2A23A575@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:50:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.177 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >It's on the Internet, and therefore has to be true? And why should it be more true what you say? Bart said it or the ADL said it, therfore it's true? What are YOUR ARGUMENTS that LaRouche is a criminal? Did it never happen in the US that an innocent was jailed? Did you find anything criminal in his actions or writings? In turn, do you find anything criminal in the actions or writings of his enemies, like Bush, Sharon, Kissinger, Huntington, Gore Vidal?? LaRouche clearly writes that the clash of civilizations are wrong and demands for a dialog of civilizations. For that he is denounced as a Nazi. He also believes that not a single race is the best one but that rather every race has it's good and bad periods. He also says that the greatest danger of today is the misunderstood religions and esp. the bible belt in USA with their Christian fundamentalists. He also says that it is this partyliners who misuse the bible and the Jews and the Zionists for their purposes. He thinks that there are universal principles and that a Brotherhood of Man is necessary today to counteract the Armageddon plans of certain Christian-Jewish fundamentalists which will happen now when not all people of good will stand up. Most of the European countries believe that too, although it is not public. In any case, that contents convince we more than the swindle stories of the ADL about him and other racists like Huntington or Sharon. Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 04:59:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 95243 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 11:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 11:59:57 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67Bxsx03673 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:54 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-177.blinx.de [62.96.222.177]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67Bxqc03656 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:52 +0200 Message-ID: <004f01c225ad$d49b1b60$b1de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020629211555.70643.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The Haavara incident Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:25:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.177 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Steve writes: An interesting and provocative thesis. It should be said in the interest of fairness and accuracy that a distinction is made between the larger Jewish community in that time and the Zionists, who were not as popular as they are today. The Zionists served their own interests by getting in bed with Hitler, Henry Ford, and other antiSemites, but they clearly did not serve the interests of the larger Jewish community, or not in Europe anyway. I found another Frank answers: Agreed. This is the same as I understand from both HPB's and Steiner's arguments on the Jews and their elite. But nevertheless both HPB and Steiner in the left propaganda are denounced as anti-semites or Nazi supporters. >From my point of view and knowing the fact that the Zionists and Hitler were working together to bring the assimilated Jews to Palestine both HPB's and Steiner's critic on the Jewish elite is in no way anti-semitic, but rather philo semitic, they tried to protect the Jewish people against those tempters with their childish and sentimental idea of a wordly Israel and a worldy Jerusalem. As we live today in an Orwell world were peace is war and cheap is expensive and is reform is retreat and truth is lie and democracy is tyranny and freedom is slavery those who are denounced to be anti-Semits may be in truth the friends of the Jews. The Zionists were never that popular, even today, as the overall majority of the world Jews does not live in Israel. But they had the power to do their plot as they did because the others were too weak and too blind to see what would be the results. Even today many will not see what will be the results of Bush's policy. It think it will change the face of the USA, too. Steve writes: I found another book offered by amazon which says Ben Gurion and other leaders tried to cover all this up after the war. I just got through watching a documentary on CNN about the Commandant of Unit 101. It does not appear there were any good guys in this drama, nor were there any innocents among the leadership class. Frank answers: There was an interview with Gurion in the "Look Magazine" of Jan. 16, 1962 "As prophesied by Isaiah" where he demands a world government under the guide of the Jewish race and with world capital in Jerusalem, built there a Shrine of the Prophets because Isaiah prophesied it! >From a theosophical point of view these is clearly nonsense and a dead letter ideology. Nor are there proofs that the present Khazars who make over 90% of Israel's population are real succeccors of the old Hebrews. KH once wrote to Sinnett that 2/3 of the world problems appear out of the dogmatic religions, which are Christianity, Islam and Judaism. By the way, the aggressive Hamas movement was since years armed by Israel's Mossad and Arafat is one who represents the liberal Palestines. When Arafat's policy and telephone system is destroyed that he is not able anymore to have control over the Trojan horses and at the same time he is accused to be responsible for the development it's just the old Jewish trick of steal something, run away and cry: Stop the thief! The rationale of this satanic policy of Bush and Sharon (BBC: "The slaughter of Lebanon" in 1982) is to be found in Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" the direct counter program of the TS. I wonder why no TS has anything to say on this? Do they have fear? Are they frightened by someone? It is beem said that the TS Pasadena suffered from FBI investigation some years ago. It also appears that people sudeenly die. A friend of mine who studied this background powers and was also listener in my previous theosophical group was found by his wife in the cellar, hanged with his belt, although he had much fun and was in his 40's. Surprisingly, the ceiling of the cellar was only some centimeters higher as his head. But I think that for a theosophist there is no reason to cloth mouth, even if one is threatened with assassination. Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 05:00:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 69881 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 11:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 11:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 12:00:00 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67BxuB03687 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:56 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-177.blinx.de [62.96.222.177]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67Bxrc03668 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:59:54 +0200 Message-ID: <005001c225ad$d573c820$b1de603e@captaink> To: References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> <3D21C561.7D8AA514@sprynet.com> Subject: War acts past and present Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:36:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.177 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Bart: A more important question is: was the slaughter of the family a crime, or an act of war? Clearly Israel considered it to be an act of war, just Frank: That means that the holocaust on the Jews in Germany was according to your standards also not a crime, but an act of war since the Jews declared war of Germany several times beginning in 1933? Bart: Explain these acts. Frank: Bart, I try. You say that the slaughter of the family was not a crime as Israel considered it to be an act of war. Bart: I said nothing of the sort. All I said is that there is disagreement as to whether it should be classified as a crime or an act of war, and Israel considered it to be an act of war. At no point did I say what I considered it to be. Therefore, you are starting off from a false premise. --------------- Frank answers: OK, you did not say that it was an act of war, you only said that to Israel it is an act of war. But that does not change the moral content of the question I asked and which I insert anew and to which you not answered but with a counter question: Frank: My question is: Is the same standard of judging applicable to a similar case (if it be), when the Jews were the victims in the Third Reich? And if not, where is the difference in both cases from a theosophical, ethical point of view? Bart: And I am asking what is this "similar case"? Can you show me what documents or claims there are by Jews in Germany stating that their goal was the destruction of Germany and the destruction of the German people, as there were in the Jordanian and Palestinian communities? Frank: My point was not whether "Jews in Germany" as you say (isn't it a racist term as the Jews are no race??) wanted the destruction of Germany, my point was when Israel considered the slaughter as an act of war if then the same moral code is to be used when the Jews declared war on Germany and Hitler's reaction was the lost of the civil rights of the Jews? Could Hitler's persecution be regarded as an act of war, since the Jews declarded that war? So I don't wrote of the Germans Jews and you are also starting off from a false premise. I was writing about those Jews (or that claimes to be) who are known as the Zionists or the "invisible government" (as Theodore Roosevelt stated in 1912 as well as in Germany the very competent and patriotic Jew Walther Rathenau who was assassinated for that revelation). I have before me in my archives the "Daily Express" of Friday, March 24, 1933 with the headline: "JUDEA DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY" "Jews Of All The World Unite In Action" The longer article begins thus: "ALL Israel is uniting in wrath against the Nazi onslaught on the Jews in Germany. Adolf Hitler, swept into power by an appeal to elemental patriotism, is making history of a kind he least expected. Thinking to unite only the German nation to race consciousness he has roused the whole Jewish people to a national renaissance. The appearance of the swastika symbol of a new Germany has called forth the Lion of Judah, the old battle symbol of Jewish defiance. Fourteen million Jews dispersed throughout the world have banded together as one man to declare war on the German persecutors of their co-religionists.... Germany is a heavy borrower in foreign money markets, where the Jewish influence is considerable.... The old and reunited people of Israel are rising with new and modern weapons to fight this age old battle with their persecutors." So a Jewish source attests that: 1. the international money market is under Jewish control and 2. that these regard themselves as the people of Israel which is a gross manipulation of the real, theosophical understanding, as with Israel all humankind is meant and not a single race alone. 3. that this fight against the swastika is an old battle (since Atlantis times?) 4. that Hitler reunited these people who claim to be the Israelits despite the fact that this "history" is stolen from Aryan sources and was never the real history of that people who came from India and settled in Syria much South of what today is the territory of "Israel". But going back to your new question of "Jews in Germany" (why not "German Jews" if they are not a separated race??): The Jewish historian Jacob Toury writes that many Jewish authors were openly supporting anti-semitism and gives following names: 1. Aron Briman (= Dr. Justus), editor of the Judenspiegel (Jews mirror) 2. Elias Johann Cohn, buddy of Stoecker 3. Dr. Morris Christoph de Jonge, co-worker of the Kreuz paper and editor of the Hannoversche Post 4. Dr. Paul Limann from the Dresdner and Leipziger Nachrichten 5. August Maass, publisher of anti-semitical pamphlets 6. Simon Michael May, editor of the Reichsboten from Mr Stoecker 7. Dr. Morgenstern 8. Nathan Wilhelm Schlesinger 9. Joseph Varnhagen, publisher of the anti-semitical "Geldmonopol" (money monopoly) in Kassel When the Levites decided to let the "prophecy" in the bible come true for their new 3rd Reich in the middle of the 19.th Century, the anti-semitism was installed in both Germany by the Jews Karl Marx alais Mardochai (paid by Rothschild, also "The Hebrew Talisman" mention the Rothschilds) and Wilhelm Marr, and in Russia with the Chibat Zion, Friends of Zion and the persecution of the Russian Jews, to bring the Jews "back home" to Palestine. The known Jew and expert Dietrich Bronder says that the word anti-semitism was created by the Jewish actor Wilhelm Marr who started in 1863 editing the radical Judenspiegel (Jews mirror), but the paper has had not much success. A decade later in 1873 he wrote the pamphlet "Der Sieg des Judentums über das Germanentum" (The victory of Jewry over Germanism). In turn, German authors wrote that the Germanic culture should not die and must defended against the Jews. In turn, the Jews reacted etc. etc. In 1895 the Jewish Society "Centralverein" spoke of a "war" between the Germans and the Jews. Beginning with provocations both sided were pushed and hate was growing. Was this part of a longer plot with the aim Palestine? To my understanding there is a similarity between the 3rd Reich of the Levites of which they sentimentally dreamed of in the alleged Holy Land and the 3rd Reich of the Nazis. If the Prussian sources were correct the Nazi party was a Trojan horse of New York bankers and Hitler was the fulfiller of an old dream. Without Hitler the modern Jews who did not believe in dead letter interpretations of the bible would not have left their homeland. Many German Jews were loyal and patriotic, many served as soldiers in WW I and many died for Germany, many were in top state positions under Bismarck and Wilhelm. Seems that to the insiders who planned their 3rd Reich a war was necessary to change the political scene into a direction where they would be able to bring the Jews to Palestine. Frank: This is a serious question to me. Very often one can see that equal things which happen in human history are judged different, depending of the belonging to an ideology, to a creed, to a race and it is not judged from the unity of life which makes not such discrimination. Bart: Pushing an old lady out of the way of a moving car is not the same thing as a pushing an old lady into the path of a moving car, in spite of the claims of the advocates of "moral equivalency". Frank: That is not my kind of moral code. To me both examples are violence. HPB in explaining Aryan thought says that it is always the motive and not the result what counts. Your argument gives me the impression as if to you only the physical side counts. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Jul 07 06:58:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 13:58:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 24824 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 13:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 13:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 13:58:41 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B8B255EE358 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:58:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00c501c225bd$cf76a0e0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: Subject: Political Corruption and My latest connection... Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:54:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all of you, My Internet-connection was down for about a week. - Why ? the company (TDC) havn't told me yet. I don't hope that the latest views made by Frank Reitemeyer here at Theos-Talk on people dying has something to do with that. >:-) As a webmaster teacher of mine says - computers are shit they never work ! <:-) I have to say that my 'spiderman' senses are vibrating these days. It could be, that something is wrong around those people I am in more or less close contact with here or elswhere in my life. I will meditate further on it, to get closer to the problem. >From reading the latest weeks postings here at Theos-Talk I would like to suggest, that when we deal with 'Corrupt Politics' as has been done for some weeks now, - that we always seek to make it more crystal clear WHAT the Theosophical basis is in our emails - i.e. what the Theosophical point IS. It is Theosophy etc. - and for instance its stance on 'Corrupt Politics' and not politics as such, which are the primary topics. (Of course some will have to find a commen historical basis to talk from - simply because it could be helpfull, and give karmic insights.) God/ParaBrahman is always here - and only so far away as you want it to be - or as close as you want. So how close is God/Parabrahman to you ? Ooh ...not more than that ? Everyone on this Planet is near and dear to God or ParaBrahman - no doubt about that. All suffering is alloved by God/ParaBrahman. So no suffering is happening without wisdom being involved. Because you and I are ignorant or havn't the highest amount of Wisdom the world have seen - we might not understand the suffering that happens or has happened - OR we might understand it. Those who are ignorant - arn't really clever are they ! What about you. You can think of God/ParaBrahman. The good in the good. That which is no problem, that is God/ParaBrahman. from M. Sufilight with peace and the works... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Jul 07 07:02:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 14:02:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 88931 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 14:02:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 14:02:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 14:02:08 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F7075EE4CB for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:02:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00cb01c225be$49d672c0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: Subject: Distortions of the Cabbala - Jews and Sufis... Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:57:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all of you, Here is a little - to me interesting - quote on Cabbala, Jews and Sufis taken from the sufi-related book "The People of the Secret" by Ernest Scott. Ernest Scott. His book is at the sufipublishers (Octagon Press) http://www.clearlight.com/octagon/ The point I am getting at is, that there is a lot of confusion about the Cabbala and the Sufis and their role in the movements of Ancient Wisdom including the most interesting Theosophical movement, where H. P. Blavatsky (HPB) played an important role. The book starts of with an introdoction by Colin Wilson (The Colin Wilson page http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jbmorgan/cwilson.html ) by something like presenting Madame Blavatsky as the one - to which the notion of an 'ancient wisdom' , guarded by hidden custodians or Masters usually is attributed. And Dallas here at Theos-Talk recently quoted on the Adepts that their role are: "Assisting all good movements by acting on men from behind the scenes through mental influence." (WQJ ARTICLES II 53-4) I am not saying that I agree on all the conclusions in the below made by Ernest Scott, but they are certainly interesting - also when we talk about the Middle East and international political corruption of today: "Since the Cabbala became available in the West, an immense amount of intellectual effort - and spiritual aspiration - has gone into understanding and applying its principles. About most of it there is, however, a suggestion that something is not quite right. Either some key is missing, or the corpus has been corrupted in the transmission. Much Cabbalistic writing and interpretation suggest improvisation. Conclusions are reserved and tentative. Although writers sense the perfection of the whole philosophical machine, they are aware that square pegs, here and there , obstinately decline to fit round holes. Is the Cabbalistic corpus known to the West somehow corrupt? If this were so, it would not be a theoretical matter. Something like spiritual nuclear energy is probably involved in higher manipulations of the Cabbala, and it is obvious that if operations are based on an imperfect circuit diagram, errors may be disastrous - and though not visible as such, disastrous nevertheless. Is there any evidence that the Cabbala of the West is corrupt ? We have seen that the Cabbalistic tradition itself attributes the Cabbala's origins to an almagam. Two seperate though similar expressions of an ancient objective science came together, in a wholly oral transmission, later reluctantly written down in cypher. The version of this known to the West appeared mysteriously around AD 1000. Where did it come from? Incredibly it would appear that it did not originate in a Jewish source at all, but a sufic one. The accepted modern authority on jewry, The Jewish Encyclopedia, delcares that it came from Basra, as one of the tratises composing the Encyclopedia of the Faithful Brethren published 980 ! The stament seems unequivocal. "... The Faithful Brothers of Basra originated the eight elements which form God..." Then perhaps comes the clue to all the square pegs and round holes that have followed: "...changed by a Jewish philosopher in the middle of the11th century into ten". A present-day Sufi Sheikh is even more explicit:" The Cabbala came from the region of theFaithful Brothers to two places, Italy and Spain. Its system of word manipulation may be derived from and parallel and ancient Jewish teaching, but it is founded upon Arabic grammar... there is no doubt that the Arab study of grammar and the meaning of words is at the base of usage of words in the Cabbala for mystical purposes...The Sufis and the Brethren had produced what they considered to be the most ancient teaching, the secret lore of fulfilment and power and handed it to the Arabized Jews. The Jewish Cabbalists adapted this teaching to contemporary Jewish thinking and the Cabbala of the Arabs became the Cabbala of the Jews and later of the Christians...But the mystical schools of Sufism which never regarded organized book knowledge as a sufficient source, continued to ally practice of the Sufic Rite with the essentials of the old Cabbala teachings..." And elsewhere: "The alteration of basic Cabbalism (from eight to ten) deprived the Western development of the system of a great deal of its meaning and usefulness. Hebrew and Christian Cabbala litterature later than 12th century is therfore only of partial meaning. This includes all aspects of the Cabbala of the ten elements as distinct from the 'Eight Cabbala'." --- note 6 " 6 Idries Shah, The Sufis, W.H. Allen, London, 1964. *** It is said later, that: "Who altered it and why? Did it happen because somebody thought he knew better? Or did it arise by accident in endlees transcriptions? Or did someone fear that too much had been given out and strive to contain the danger by deliberate falsification? The nature of the alteration was the addition of two elements to the original. This hardly looks like an error in transcription. Yet the nature of the alteration was such as to prevent the "machine" being employed in its entirety. Examples of post-publication panic are not unknown in the litterature of alchemy, and it would seem likely that a Jewish source, perhaps from a partial understanding as well as a sense of security, invented the Cabbala of the ten elements as a "blind" to draw attention away from the potentialities of the "Eight". *** The falsification seems to involve at least the majors of Tarot no. 14, 15, 16, and 20. Well according to Idries Shah and Ernest Scott. *** The book "Encyclopedia of the Faithful Brethren" is also called "Ikhwan El-Safa". (And the original version is not for sale in any bookshop.) The socalled initiate Adelard of Bath was said to have translated a version of it into latin. He is by some regarded as precursor for Roger Bacon. At Toledo a lot of translations was being created - and thus creating a diffusion of Arab wisdom and science into the west. It is interesting to think that the bases of rocket science of today was laid in Toledo, (i.e. spiritually seen). Adelard gave the proof that a toal vacuum was impossible. He is said also to have had the pseudonym of Magister A. That the Cabbala comes from not only the egyptian historical traditions is clear at least to me and HPB, but also to Ernest Scott. The above could be compared with what HPB has written in her books and articles. The book "The Secret Doctrine" comes especially to my mind here, when we talk about the Cabbala and the distortions of it. HPB is allright, but later theosophists seems to miss the point that 7 is an esoteric number and 10 is an exoteric one. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Jul 07 07:15:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 14:15:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 51576 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 14:15:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40009.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 14:15:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20020707141512.10508.qmail@web40009.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.138] by web40009.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 07:15:12 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 07:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wall Street To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D27BE1B.9D04D381@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > It was an artificial dip, caused by too many people > (especially large > not-for-profits) using the relatively new and not > perfected method of > programmed trades. Essentially, automatic sell > orders were given for > stocks when they went below a certain point. A > normal dip caused > computers to "panic sell", creating the crash (the > bond market, on the > same day, was at a major high point). There was a lot of human panic selling as well. Hospitals were shut down and telephone systems stopped working altogether as physicians and other wealthy professionals called their brokers trying to close their positions. It has also been estimated that 45% of all daily activity on the NASDAQ in 2002 is just automated computerized trading. There was more scandal in 1987 than there is today. And yet this panic is not going away. People have started biddinh up the price of each others' houses the way they did in the late seventies, creating another real estate bubble. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Jul 07 08:23:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 15:23:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 75491 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 15:23:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 15:23:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40015.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.55) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 15:23:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20020707152301.84945.qmail@web40015.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.138] by web40015.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 08:23:01 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World The Haavara incident To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004f01c225ad$d49b1b60$b1de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > By the way, the aggressive Hamas movement was since > years armed by Israel's > Mossad Well, yes, unfortunately, Mossad is regarded by experts on terrorism as a terrorist organization. I listened to a British expert lecture on that subject years ago. He said that Abu Nidal had long since been assassinated at the time he spoke, and that his name was used by Mossad to cover up their own activities. In other words, the public was told these things had been done by Abu Nidal whereas members of the intelligence community knew very well they were Mossad operations. That was rather worrisome because at the time of the lecture "Abu Nidal" was being blamed for a lot of awful things around the world even though he had long since been tracked down and killed. There are undoubtedly other dead people being blamed for atrocious things today. It is unfortunately also true that covertly promoting terrorism is seen somehow as a way to promote the interests of the Israeli elite, although for the life of me I canno figure out how they arrive at that conclusion. They are themselves protected by powerful security organizations. It is the man in the street who pays the price for their policies. Menachem Begin and Nobel Peace Prize winner Rabin are gone. The Commandant of Unit 101 is in his seventies. As the generation of terrorists die off, let us hope that the next generation of leaders will have a more sensible and constructive vision of how to promote the natuinal interest. Ordinary Jews and Muslims in Palestine deserve a break. > I wonder why no TS has anything to say on this? The TS is pretty much irrelevant in the modern world. As for a man committing suicide, people do that all the time for personal reasons. There is no reason to suspect foul play if the police conducted a proper investigation as I assume they did. One thing I am not clear about is what you are getting at regarding modern events. W does not give a damn about anything except the Bush family fortune. All of his policies (repealing inheritance taxes, appointing oil execs to key positions in his administration, etc.) are centered around expanding the Bush oil fortune and making sure he ends up with it after his father and mother pass away. He is using his office to promote his self interest, but I don't believe there is anything sinister there in the sense that you imply. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 11:30:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 91528 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:33 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67IUS008498 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:28 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-206.blinx.de [62.96.222.206]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67IURc08487 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:27 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c225e4$65ce8640$cede603e@captaink> To: References: <20020704.173158.-910215.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:27:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.206 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >allegiance to him personally as Fuhrer. I believe that by this time the >republic was dead. Larry, I agree with all you said about it. Hitler eliminated the federal states and has had it fact more administrative power as even Wilhelm had under the monarchic system. The more, the republic was dead in fact in 1932 when von Papen, a hidden supporter of Hitler, forced the senile and weak Reichspraesident Hindenburg to remove the government of the biggest federal state Prussia as Prussia was aware of the planned plot and they were in attempt to suit and jail Hitler for high treason because of their collected documents about the financing of Hitler's movement from New York (Rothschild, Warburg, Schroeder, Kuen and Loeb bankers). Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 11:30:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 91567 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:34 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67IUTK08510 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:29 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-206.blinx.de [62.96.222.206]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67IUSc08494 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:28 +0200 Message-ID: <000701c225e4$66659620$cede603e@captaink> To: References: <20020704.105828.-782243.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:59:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.206 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >I have followed this discussion with much interest though it seems >somewhat far removed from Theosophy. Understandable, Larry. It seems so on the first look. And one should bear in mind that the TS as such must not deal with changing and disputable politics. OTOH, both HPB and KT did make many statements, if not warnings, which could be puzzling in their times but today after some developments in the outer world the picture perhaps become more clear. >From the German point of view there is some near to theosophy as the theosophists were persecuted in the Third Reich. So for anyone who tries to find out the motives and the background why all this happened there is an interest. The more as some foes of theosophy ran a campaign to denounce the theosophists as racists, Nazis etc. or even make Hitler a true believer in theosophical doctrines. To my knowledge most if not all of this is (political?) propaganda and they try to force Theosophy into a politican battle as they have no hard facts and the few facts they present are only gossip when researched. Even if a Theosophist will not enter such a low level of cant and hypocritical battle it seems to me a gain when one is informed what is going around and what the foes have to say. We can well remember what the results the Coulomb case have had (and still has in the lexicons) and the racist and anti-semitism slanders could lead to similiar results if there is noone from our side you makes himself an expert on that topic. There could be come a time in the near future were high intellectual experts are needed who are abel to counteract these slanders, as Purucker predicted in his "Studies", p.159. To me Theosophy (despite the weak and incompetent organizations) is the only system which gives humankind a rationale why all is connected with all and the "Clash of Civilizations" is not a must as all religions are coming from one source and if cleaned from their human distortions they will all find similarities and common sense, a co-operation and a dialog of the Civilizations is possible if all leaders would agree. We need no wars to learn our lessons. BTW, it's the same LaRouche demands and I cannot see why he is a "high apostle of the lunatic fringe" when one believes in spiritual things. It seems that the ctritic on LaRouche you quote comes from materialistic Marxist sources who want the people educate down to consuming materialistic beast life. So LaRouche seems to be very dangerous for the East Coast, the more as it seems that he has good connections to intelligence and other sources as he was to my knowledge the first and only one who warned in July and August that a big thing will happen the next weeks and who wrote about the Enron case before others did. Seems that someone who has knowledge is dangerous. Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Jul 07 11:30:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 5050 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 18:30:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 18:30:35 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g67IUUL08523 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:30 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-206.blinx.de [62.96.222.206]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g67IUTc08506 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:30:29 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c225e4$67151000$cede603e@captaink> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> <008f01c2235c$fbaa4a80$b0de603e@captaink> <004a01c225a5$f6521040$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:10:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.206 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >But what was it you disagreed with on my part ? >Frank wrote in the below: >"I heartly argree with what Morten and mkr comment below." >Can you help me out ? Sorry Morton, it was a misspelling on my part. I tried to write "I heartily agree with Morten and mkr". Second language is a hard job! Frank From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jul 07 13:27:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 20:27:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 55909 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 20:27:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 20:27:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 20:27:17 -0000 Received: from pool0070.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.222.70] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RIcb-0005nZ-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:27:05 -0400 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: Our Human Stuation Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:25:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 7th 2002 Dear Friends: In our SECRET DOCTRINE study, and in the study that Larry Kolts conducts concerning the unraveling of the allegories and myths associated with the early pages of the OLD TESTAMENT (in Genesis) -- we have parallels. Perhaps the following as I gather from Theosophy may be of use: In particular, it has reference to The SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I p 181, where 3 lines of Evolution are discussed. I was writing to a friend on this following some observations he had made: Glad you liked what I posted. Needs careful study and thinking -- but the gist of it is that: ATMA-BUDDHI in each of us is in fact a SPIRITUAL BEING. And, this interior SPIRITUAL BEING who speaks to us as "Intuition," and sometimes as the "Voice of Conscience" is also a part of the universal fraternity of SPIRIT. Now why don't we know this? Why don't we act as spiritual brings right now? Why is it so difficult to see our whole Universe is a spiritual entity? Why does every religion, without exception, speak of "God" as omnipresent -- present everywhere? Is it because it is unpleasant to think we cannot escape its "All-seeing Eye ?" As far as I can see the "material" (and limited so far in experience "monads of lesser experiences") need to purify themselves. One of the great axioms of occultism is that both SPIRIT and MATTER (as primordial substance) pervade and fill entirely the whole of the UNIVERSE (which is limitless and boundless). We are a very small portion of that. Quite unimportant except to ourselves. Yet we are also as essential as Sirius is to his system. So, I repeat: Why don't we know this? Why don't we act as spiritual brings right now? Why is it so difficult to see our whole Universe is a spiritual entity? How is this to be done? Perhaps this is one of the ways: 1. Their (animal man's) instinctual capacity, now in this Manvantaras, since the LIGHTING UP OF MANAS, has to widen our, deepen out, elevate itself (as it perceives) to the SPIRITUAL LEVEL. From its personal present stand-point, it has, first, to proceed to individualization. It makes of itself a THINKER. Then, this thinker has to universalize itself. It has as goal to become completely wise -- so it takes many incarnations with this firmly in mind to be achieved. You may not agree that this is a common goal for every human -- for every MIND. I say that the difference and the inclinations of personal character make the differences and delay this kind of perception. But if for some moments we can detach our minds from those likes or antipathies, we might see impersonally whether what I say is true and reasonable. What is the highest and greatest good for each and all? Are we brothers in SPIRIT as well as brothers in the "flesh?" Are we brothers in heart and mind as well as in potential PERFECTION ? This takes time since it (and we) begins at the opposite pole: MATTER. We are very conscious of that, it being the only vehicle for our consciousness that we know quite a lot about. On the long path (some have called it the "pilgrimage of the immortals") this immortal speck (that each of us is) of CONSCIOUSNESS, inextricably bound to its MATTER component, has to fight its way out of those limitations to an independence which allows it to perceive both. It has to achieve an independent mid-way position. This is what our MIND can do for us. But we have to tell it to do so. But that is easier said than done. We as consciousness are in that mid-way position -- we are free MINDS. We see both good and evil. The difference being very simply: compliance with Universal impersonal LAW, or disobedience, and the debasement of one's intelligence by trying to do the impossible: to break NATURE'S ( GOD'S) LAWS ( and escape from the consequences). So if at one pole we start with MATTER, the other pole (extremely remote), is SPIRITUAL PERFECTION IN ALL THINGS -- the actual condition of GODHOOD. Matter is able to progress in development only as far as instinct is developed. Instinct by itself is the wisdom of the material kingdom and reflects pure virtue. When afflicted with man's thoughts and selfishness this turns to viciousness. One can see this reflected in the natures and qualities of certain plants and animals. And then to distinguish them we ascribe to them "human" qualities -- which may be either virtues or vices. It is however a fact that the feelings and thoughts of mankind have modified those beings and rendered them abnormal. This is specially marked where animals or plants are forced into close contact with humanity. In The SECRET DOCTRINE, H P B and the Masters of Wisdom, explain how our human situation developed: there, is a three-fold entity: Spirit, Mind and Matter. It is now at the top of the limited perfection of the Material Kingdoms. ( Instinct being the highest individualization there in animal forms.) The "Lighting up of Manas" is the 2nd event that arises naturally, as INSTINCT is altered into SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. ( We can see in every household where there are little children, how this occurs, as the parents and elders impart to the child -- not yet self-conscious -- their qualities and capacities, for good or bad. Humanity as a "host" or a large group made of many individual dissimilarities, yet in general, being at the same stage of development, is in this child-stage and passing into adolescence (emotionally) and into adulthood (intellectually). Who serves as "teachers" and "elders?" The corps of those who have already graduated from the Man-stage: We call them "Elder Brothers," "Adepts," "Masters of Wisdom," "Mahatmas," "Nirmanakayas," "Avatars," "Buddhas," etc. -- their MINDS have become pure and SPIRITUAL. We are trying to get our "lower mind" (personality) to become a HIGHER MIND -- a BUDDHI-MANAS. We have on one hand the lower kingdoms with their limitations, and on the other we have the ADEPTS -- whose powers are said to be quite superior to ours. Within each of us is our own resident "God-man" the HIGHER SELF -- ATMA -- a "ray of" or "speck" of the Universal DIVINE SPIRIT. In that, we are one with the DIVINITY that pervades all. But our present task is to become fully conscious of that fact, and then, to bend our energies to living the life of a "God-man" in daily affairs. In other words, to make virtues actual and not just potential. In what way? They resolutely think things out. They do not pander to the likes and dislikes of the personality. And they try to get to see the fallacy of our doing that, because the end result of such pandering is a futile NOTHING. They say we have the ability to do this,. They also say we have to develop the will to carry out in practice what we intellectually agree is possible. In effect they say that true immorality is our unbroken consciousness -- a memory of the god and spiritual things we have done, and looking forward, of the potential we can make possible with our voluntary and free efforts. We can spiritualize the ":Lower Mind." There is no question of our stumbling and making errors as we try to do this, but success is warranted to those who pick themselves up and continue to try. This is the purpose of Theosophy -- to present to those who think answers that lead to seeing the whole spiritual layout and scheme as a logical and reasonable WHOLE. I think this is why the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY had as first objective to form "a nucleus" of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. It has to start somewhere. A "society" is to that extent superior to any single individual -- it welds the combined strength on may individuals into one. Tell me -- does this make sense to you ? Best wishes, Dallas From redrosarian@yahoo.com Sun Jul 07 13:45:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: redrosarian@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 20:45:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 87982 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 20:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 20:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 20:45:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2002 20:45:23 -0000 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:45:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Discipleship in action Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2890 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "redrosarian" X-Originating-IP: 63.230.69.235 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94777223 X-Yahoo-Profile: redrosarian Africa, A Special Presentation of "Nature" See http://www.pbs.org for more information. Episode 4, Mountains of Faith - Isolated by mountains, Ethiopia is a center of spirituality. Here, faith is a driving force in the lives of many. This episode explores the depths of Ethiopia's religious beliefs. In the holy highland town of Lalibela, young Kibkab Wodemariam studies each day in hopes of becoming a priest. In the hills above Lalibela, Abba Defar labors at bringing to life his vision of a cathedral hewn from mountain rock. Will Kibkab Wodemariam be rewarded for his studies with the honor of participating in the annual procession for the holy day of Timkat? And will Abba Defar ever complete his mammoth symbol of faith in the Ethiopian highlands? Sixteen-year-old Kibkab Wodemariam thrives on spirituality. In his home town of Lalibela, Ethiopia, that is not unusual. Legend says that Lalibela's 11 rock-hewn churches are the work of angels. Tradition dictates that the Ark of the Covenant lies in a church not far from Lalibela. Influenced by his surroundings, Kibkab, the son and brother of priests, plans to devote his life to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, one of the world's oldest forms of Christianity. Though he still has several years of study yet to go, he has already passed one crucial test -- participation in the Timkat ceremony that celebrates the holy day of Epiphany. Kibkab concedes that his knowledge of the outside world is limited to Jerusalem, a frequent topic in his religious studies. Still, he dreams of travel. One likely destination -- Greece, long popular with religious scholars. But for now, Kibkab is firmly anchored in the highlands. Since filming for AFRICA finished, Kibkab's father, who acted as his teacher, has died. When Kibkab enters the priesthood, he may well work in his father's place, continuing to serve the communities of farmers that dot this breathtaking landscape. My commentary: Watching this movie, I was inspired by the examples of Kibkab and Abba Defar, an elderly Ethiopian Christian priest. Kibkab's striving to be a priest was inspiring because his example reminded me of the rigors of discipleship. However, compared to the ways I have been instructed to earn my discipleship, his dedication, determination and devotion made me appreciate his efforts even more. In a remote area of Ethiopia, as a young man, Abba Defar had a vision where he was told of the Coming of the Chosen One. He felt inspired to build a church out of a mountain. To him, it seemed impossible but he was given two signs, one of a dove who appeared on his shoulder and another of catching a flying eagle. He thought it was impossible to catch the eagle except one day, the eagle flew to him. If you want to watch something that shows discipleship in action, I would highly recommend this television episode. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Jul 07 14:00:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 21:00:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 47154 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 21:00:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 21:00:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40006.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.24) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 21:00:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20020707210000.10113.qmail@web40006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.233.8] by web40006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 14:00:00 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lyndon Farrakhan and Rothschild LaRouche To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000601c225e4$65ce8640$cede603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Despite having read scores of books on the events of the thirties and forties, I never had heard before of Rotshchild financing Hitler. The Haavara incident apparently really did occur and has been documented by reputable scholars. Looking on the Internet using Rotschild and Hitler as search terms, it appears the idea that Rotschild financed Hitler is a favorite theme of antiSemitic groups like the Lyndon Larouche organizations (there are several of them) and the Nation of Islam. Given that the Haavara incident is a fact, the alleged connection between Rothschild and Hitler cannot be dismissed out of hand. However it also appears one should search for reputable works of scholarship before arriving at any conclusions. It makes no sense to base your world view on Lyndon Larouche and Louis Farrakhan. If anyone knows of works by reputable scholars which support this thesis, please share the titles. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Jul 07 15:15:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 22:15:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 50201 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 22:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 22:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 22:14:59 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RKIz-0008J1-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:14:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3D28BD90.7DE3808F@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:15:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> <009001c2235c$fd126600$b0de603e@captaink> <3D2468D5.E2B8826F@sprynet.com> <00f601c2237c$5de68320$b0de603e@captaink> <3D24831D.2A23A575@sprynet.com> <004e01c225ad$d3f342a0$b1de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > >It's on the Internet, and therefore has to be true? > > And why should it be more true what you say? > Bart said it or the ADL said it, therfore it's true? What is the ADL? > What are YOUR ARGUMENTS that LaRouche is a criminal? Many people's credit cards were charged for donations to his campaign without their authorization. On top of this, he participated in the destruction of records to hinder the police investigation. > Did it never happen in the US that an innocent was jailed? Yes, but a hell of a lot more guilty people have gone to jail. > Did you find anything criminal in his actions or writings? Mainly idiocy. > In turn, do you find anything criminal in the actions or writings of his > enemies, like Bush, Sharon, Kissinger, Huntington, Gore Vidal?? Irrelevant. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Jul 07 15:23:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Jul 2002 22:23:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 47918 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2002 22:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2002 22:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2002 22:23:05 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RKQp-0000Ul-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:23:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3D28BF77.84CA31F7@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:23:51 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World War acts past and present References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> <3D21C561.7D8AA514@sprynet.com> <005001c225ad$d573c820$b1de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: .... Actually, I don't know even where to begin. I am having a great deal of trouble trying to explain to people that Theosophy is not a branch of Naziism, and you are sitting here, trying your hardest to prove that it is. You may call yourself a Theosophist, but you are no Theosophist. I truly hope that you are mentally ill; I dread the alternative. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Jul 07 17:17:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 00:17:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 74406 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 00:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 00:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40003.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 00:17:31 -0000 Message-ID: <20020708001731.56296.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.209] by web40003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 17:17:31 PDT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D28BD90.7DE3808F@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > What is the ADL? Anti-Defamation League. For a couple of days there I thought there was a discussion of European history going on here. Some of the sources seemed to be questionable, but it took me awhile to catch on. I guess I should have known nothing sensible can be expected from Theosophists. Only among Theosophists would I be urged to take someone like Lyndon Larouche seriously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Jul 07 17:20:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 00:20:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 32296 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 00:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 00:20:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10.atl.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.246) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 00:20:24 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-237-201.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.237.201] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RMGL-0006vS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:20:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3D28DAF6.F48887F7@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:21:10 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020708001731.56296.qmail@web40003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > I guess I should have known nothing sensible can be > expected from Theosophists. Only among Theosophists > would I be urged to take someone like Lyndon Larouche > seriously. >From my experience, Frank is far from typical of those who call themselves Theosophists. You are actually more typical; strong beliefs, but willing to participate in reasonable debate, and to question those beliefs (even if the answer is that the beliefs are correct). Bart Lidofsky From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Jul 07 19:20:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 02:20:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 25719 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 02:20:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 02:20:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 02:20:30 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.89] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A690354C0094; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:18:56 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020707211406.00a3fe50@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:20:33 -0500 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net,theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "The Hebrew Talisman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 A rare pamphlet was published circa 1836 titled "The Hebrew Talisman". It was reprinted (with an introduction by Richard Harte) in The Theosophical Siftings, Vol 13, a compilation of various theosophical articles and pamphlets by Countess Wachtmeister. Countess was a companion of HPB during the days when she wrote the Secret Doctrine. Theosophical Siftings were later reprinted by Edmonton Theosophical Society. I am posting this pamphlet as it will be of interest to theosophists. I want to acknowledge the help of Edmonton TS in scanning the pamphlet. mkr From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Jul 07 19:23:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 02:23:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 33215 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 02:23:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 02:23:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 02:23:45 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.89] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A734441C0040; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:21:40 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020707212131.00b3db70@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:23:17 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com,theos-l@list.vnet.net Subject: The Hebrew Talisman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 ***** Please note that this is yet to be proof read after scanning for=20 posting***** THE HEBREW TALISMAN. REPRINTED VERBATIM FROM A COPY OF A RARE PAMPHLET, DATED CIRCA 1836, WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY RICHARD HARTE London: Published by the T.P.S., 7, Duke Street, Adelphi =09 1888 --------------------------------------=09 INTRODUCTION. The present number of the T.P.S. pamphlets, a reprint of a curious and very= =20 rare work, may not appear to some readers to have a very direct bearing on= =20 theosophical teachings. Those who have got beyond the A B C of Theosophy,=20 however, will find in this issue a good deal of material for serious=20 thought. It deals with one of the most puzzling and deeply interesting=20 problems which the past has left for solution to the future the destiny of= =20 the Jewish race, and the fate of the Holy Land. The plot of the work (if=20 that expression be allowed) is based upon two ideas, which taken singly are= =20 so well known as to be almost tiresome; namely, the ancient belief of the=20 Jews, based upon prophecy and national pride, that eventually they will=20 recover posession of Judea, and gather together once more at Jerusalem,=20 after their long exile from the land of their ancestors a belief only less= =20 intense than the longing for its realization. The other idea is that=20 contained in the legend of the Wandering Jew firmly believed in by all=20 Christendom from the apostolic ages until but recently, still half-believed= =20 by millions, and to which the doctrine of reincarnation, especially=20 immediate reincarnation for a specific purpose, lends, if not plausibility,= =20 at least a new intellectual interest. These two ingredients of the plot=20 when put together enter, as it were, into chemical combination, for they=20 give rise to an idea which differs in its characteristics from both of the= =20 components. As a punishment for a thoughtless word spoken by a foolish and= =20 ignorant mortal even to a god (in disguise at the time), the eternal and=20 miserable activity of the Wandering Jew is a purposeless piece of unworthy= =20 revenge, as little credible in this more humane and enlightened age as the= =20 miracle required to consummate it. As a practical settlement of the Jewish= =20 question, the return of the Hebrew nation, or even a considerable part of=20 the Jews, to Syria seems patently absurd. All travellers describe the Holy= =20 Land as barren and poor in the extreme, a land which, if it ever flowed=20 with "milk and honey," has for centuries been believed to have withered=20 under the terrible curse of an angry God. Could anyone but a child imagine= =20 for one instant that so thoroughly practical a people as the Jews, a race,= =20 moreover, pre-eminently fond of the luxuries of life, would voluntarily=20 abandon the various countries which for centuries have been their homes,=20 abandon their hereditary occupations, abandon civilization, and undertake=20 the frightful labour of reclaiming a rocky and arid district, a labour from= =20 which even back-woods pioneers inured to hardship would shrink--and all for= =20 a religio-sentimental idea? But put these two incredible notions together, and all is changed. What if= =20 it be the mission of the so-called Wandering Jew to preserve in the Hebrew= =20 mind the recollection of the former glories of the race, and to keep alive= =20 the longing once more to revive them? The moment that idea finds entry to=20 the mind, the legend ceases to be childish, and the longing is no longer=20 unaccountable. The two things explain each other, and taken together they=20 raise the Jewish question to a level far above that occupied by the=20 superstitions of the ignorant, or the calculations of individual=20 self-interest. To the Jew himself it is no less than the finger of Jehovah= =20 that becomes manifest from this larger point of view. Through all the=20 centuries, as they believe, He has been disciplining and preparing them for= =20 their final triumph. Already the despised outcasts of a thousand years ago= =20 are the masters of kings and republics alike. There are a score of Jews=20 to-day each one of whom is a greater power in the world than an army of a=20 hundred thousand men. Were they to combine they could purchase Palestine=20 ten times over, and then keep a million of Christian workmen joyfully=20 slaving at starvation wages for twenty years in doing the work of making=20 the country once more a garden while they stood by to superintend. Perhaps= =20 the Jews are right. It may be that the finger of Jehovah is guiding their=20 destinies in the direction of Jerusalem. We know that to be worshipped=20 there, and by them alone, was once His greatest glory. Far be. it from=20 theosophists to deny that such may still be the case, and if it so be,=20 then, for the Jews themselves, all that need be done to complete his=20 purposes will be accomplished. To the theosophist, however, Jerusalem, even= =20 Judea, is not the whole of this earth, nor this earth the whole Universe.=20 And a higher guidance than that by human will in the case of the Jews, does= =20 not imply a monopoly of divine solicitude for one little tribe of people,=20 nor a monopoly of power and wisdom for the celestial being who has chosen=20 them for his special favour. If it be true that the affairs of the Jewish=20 race are under higher guidance, then logic and justice require us to=20 believe that a similar guidance is vouchsafed to all mankind, and to the=20 inhabitants of the myriad worlds that roll in space. Is it so? Is there=20 being enacted before our eyes a tremendous drama of creation, in which=20 individual men are as microscopic animalculi? Does it get rid of the idea=20 of a directing power to call "spontaneous development" what our ancestors,= =20 equally ignorant, called Divine Providence? Who is to ask these questions?= =20 And of whom can they be asked? Will the Christian listen for their answer=20 from the mouth of a Jew? Will a theosophist seek it from a theologian? Will= =20 those who know go to school to those who invent fables? Above, behind, inside of every material thing there is a great, an eternal,= =20 incomprehensible, sustaining power absolute and impersonal, the Divine=20 Spirit. Far lower in the scale of existence there are powers, personal and= =20 non-eternal, creatures who had a beginning and will have an end. Men call=20 these lower fashioning powers collectively a personal God; not only=20 jumbling them together, but confounding them with the unknowable Absolute.= =20 Is one of these minor powers, the Jehovah of the ancient Hebrews, now=20 pulling the wires that attach his people to him, and turning their steps=20 towards the "promised land"once more? It is said that wealthy Jewish=20 bankers have at this moment actual legal right of possession to Palestine,= =20 holding it in mortgage from the Sultan. It is said that Jewish statesmen=20 have arranged for the completion and ratification of the transfer of the=20 property to the mortgagees, upon the fulfilment of certain diplomatic=20 conditions which events are rapidly bringing about. At the present moment a= =20 large part of Palestine, and nearly the whole of Jerusalem, is said to be=20 owned by Jews. What does it all mean? The T.P.S., in republishing this little work, disclaims all political=20 purpose, as needs hardly to be said. It contains some bitter sayings=20 concerning people long since dead, and events now almost "ancient history,"= =20 all of which the T.P.S. would gladly have omitted in the reprint, had it=20 not been that to do so would have spoiled the consecutiveness of the=20 argument or narrative therein contained. >From internal evidence the Hebrew Talisman was written about 1836. No one= =20 ever discovered who the writer was. The edition was soon exhausted, and=20 till now has never been reprinted. ------------------------------------ THE HEBREW TALISMAN. IT has been lately asserted that so much had been said and sung about the=20 Wandering Jew that nothing further could be made of the subject by any=20 writer, however highly gifted with the quality of invention. Insolent=20 Gentiles! Learn to be more humble in thought and less peremptory in=20 assertion: I am the Wandering Jew. I am that doomed one of whom so many=20 have written ; and I have smiled in very scorn at the description given of= =20 me, and of my mode of being, by personages who are nearly as ignorant of=20 all that relates to me as are those stolid worthies who pronounce me to be= =20 a nonentity; and my perpetuated misery a fable and a figment. I am spoken of as being an undying exception to all human rule; yet has my= =20 body died and been consigned to the loathsome vault and the sleek damp worm= =20 upwards of two score times since that awful day when the veil of the temple= =20 was rent in twain, when the earth groaned and was convulsed in her agony of= =20 sympathy with the dying one ; and when He, turning his effulgent orbs in=20 anger upon me exclaimed, "Tarry thou until I come!" Undying! I have been=20 wept over in most of the nations which exist, and in many which have long=20 ceased to be ; I have been the victim of the rack and of the block; I have= =20 pined in the terrible dungeon of the Inquisition which shuts out hope and=20 which echoes to no sound save the moan of the miserable captive or=20 execration of the brutal gaoler; my body has blazed in the Auto da Fe of=20 Spain and Portugal, where hecatombs of my miserable long suffering race,=20 the youth, the maiden, the matron, the elder, have been immolated; living,= =20 burning, sacrifices, offered on the altars of Christian meekness. Undying!= =20 Take but a brief portion of my long and awful history, and put an end to=20 the senseless figments of lively imaginations ; to the absurd belief that=20 the mortal portion of man can outlast the rock, and what is frail can=20 remain for long centuries unbroken, or what is destructible remain undestro= yed. . . . . . .=20 . . . . . Years, long, agonised years, have flown, yet it seems but as yesterday!=20 God! how happy, how haughty in gladness, was I then. My house, overlooking= =20 the sea and shaded on the land side by groves of oranges and myrtles, was=20 on an eminence at the extremity of one of the most delightful of the=20 Grecian Isles. Though I was fully twenty years, in the world's estimation,= =20 what knew the world of my age? older than my beloved Zoe, I was dear to her= =20 as the gushing fountain to the Pilgrim of Zahara. Our daughter, fairest=20 among even the sunny-eyed daughters of Greece, and our son, the noblest boy= =20 that ever gave fair promise of heroic manhood, were even as a proverb for=20 beauty, as we ourselves were for prosperity and concord. Happy days! Too=20 happy, by far, to be the permanent lot of him who had mocked at the prophet= =20 of Calvary, and who has seen empires smitten down, and wept his own=20 repeated ruin in the ruin of successive nations. We sat one evening in=20 luxurious ease, exchanging glances of mingled love and pride, as our=20 beautiful children abandoned themselves to their innocent mirth and=20 displayed some new grace in every new attitude. Of a sudden the air felt=20 leaden in its oppressiveness, a dire consciousness rushed upon my mind, and= =20 I once more became aware of my terrible identity. I gasped for breath, and= =20 vainly attemped to give utterance to my agony; the metempsychosis of the=20 ancients, fabulous to them, [was no longer a fable; and I, who in outward=20 appearance and corporeal members was a merchant of Greece, the husband of a= =20 loving wife and the father of beloved children, was once more aroused to=20 the maddening truth, that in soul I was the accursed one of Judea; the=20 survivor of many ages! the unpitied mourner of innumerable relatives--the=20 dead of divers nations! This fatal, this abhorred, consciousness comes upon= =20 my soul in the fortieth year of whatsoever body it inhabits; and to this=20 consciousness some terrible calamity certainly and speedily succeeds. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .= =20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . As I stood with dilated nostrils, glazed eyes, and stricken limbs, my Zoe=20 started suddenly from the anxious and endearing posture she had assumed on= =20 witnessing the horrible change which had come over me, and, shrieking, "The= =20 Osmanlie!" rushed towards our children. A struggle a piercing shriek, the=20 wild war-cry of the bloody brood of Mahomet; and I was childless and=20 wifeless! How I reached the sea side I know not; but I did reach it and was= =20 speedily on board a vessel of my own, and bounding over the blue waters.=20 Days and nights passed by, the good ship cleft her way through the heaving= =20 waters; but no pang for wife or child, no thought for my present=20 preservation or future course once crossed my mind. A dry and burning agony= =20 oppressed my brain; and but one thought was existent there-my horrible my=20 accursed identity; and when my lips gave utterance to my thoughts their=20 sole accents were "Tarry thou until I come!" At length this one horror made way for the accumulated reminiscences of=20 eighteen hundred years of misery! Aye, that, that is the surpassing curse=20 of my tremendous doom! No sooner have my forty years of un-tortured=20 existence passed away, no sooner do I awaken to a consciousness of what I=20 am, than I am goaded to despair by distinct and harrowing remembrance of=20 all that I have been, done, and suffered. All who loved me and are lost to= =20 me rise up again to my mental view; and the moral evils of long centuries=20 are superadded to the tremendous curse which extends my spiritual evil to=20 the crack of doom. The good ship bounded on, and the very excess of my misery aroused me to an= =20 activity of which I had previously been incapable. Of maritime affairs, I=20 had, in this one of my many lives, had abundant experience; and as the=20 horizon gave tokens of an approaching tempest, I took the helm, and the=20 command of the vessel. If I had not already felt aware that my bodily=20 existence was about to undergo another change, a phenomenon which I now=20 observed would have persuaded me of that fact. Our ship defied alike the=20 wind and the waves, and swept rapidly through the latter in the face of the= =20 former! I then knew that I was approaching my death place; that I was=20 speeding towards land which should afford me another grave, and my spirit,= =20 my doomed spirit! another body. Oh, that terrible chill, that paralysis of= =20 the heart, that numbing yet agonising sinking of the soul, which precede=20 the mortal pang! All, all were with me and upon me; yet I gazed in pity=20 upon my devoted crew who, poor fools! were pitting their manhood and their= =20 skill against inexorable fate. They knew not, alas! that to be attached to= =20 me was to die; to be bound up with my lot but another phrase for miserably= =20 perishing. Seamen by nature, you insular people are familiar, at least by description,= =20 with every phase of ocean's rage and ocean's convulsion. No new description= =20 of ship-wreck is necessary to you. Let it suffice then to say that I saw my= =20 shipmates, without an exception, swallowed up by the howling waters, and=20 was myself dashed upon the coast which we had long been approaching, and=20 which I had long recognized as the once barbarous land in which, when a=20 Roman centurion, I had combated the fierce and savage inhabitants; and=20 which I had more recently visited as a merchant, and marvelled at for its=20 wealth, its luxuries, and its civilization. Need I name your England. The valour and the wisdom of their ancestors, had encircled her brows with= =20 the diadem of empire and had placed within her hands the Sceptre of=20 maritime dominion, and clasp'd around her waist the golden girdle of the=20 world. She had become the mart of nations, and her ships covered the waters= =20 of the globe, and her immense metropolis was the emporium of the earth. The last fell pang was over, and my spirit once more freed from mortality,= =20 to seek another mortal residence. Impelled by the resistless but unseen=20 hand which scourges me, my disembodied spirit glided onward till it reached= =20 a small but beautiful cottage, and there at an open casement, it paused;=20 and stood dim, shadowy, and invisible to mortal eye, though silvered and=20 shining in the full calm beams of the moon. In the room sat a young and=20 beautiful woman gazing in agony which could not weep, upon the pale and=20 waxen visage of her dead boy her beautiful, her only one. Anon came the=20 felt, though unspoken, fiat; and my spirit entered the lifeless body. The=20 infant's feeble cry, and the mother's shriek of frantic joy announced the=20 reanimation of the mourned one. The father and the domestics rushed in, and= =20 the wonderful event is talked of to this hour in the beautiful village=20 of ... I have already shown that during the first forty years of each bodily=20 existence, I am unconscious of aught that distinguishes me from the rest of= =20 my race. I have but lately been roused from my ignorance: the curse of=20 consciousness came over me ere I wept above the grave of her who had wept=20 her child's death, and knelt in gratitude for his recovery. I am once more= =20 alone in the world, and once more aware that I am the accursed one of Judea= . Reader you have seen me though you know it not. A single night has bleached= =20 my hair, I wear the haggard features of three score, and as my mean person,= =20 and worn yet intelligent features are contrasted, as I pass through the=20 populous streets of your new Babel, with my sordid garments and my anxious= =20 and almost ferocious looks, the passengers turn and gaze upon me in wonder,= =20 as to my pursuits, my circumstances, and my character. I am aged; but I cannot again die until my mission be complete. Hitherto,=20 in all my bodily lives I have silently suffered; and in all my bodily=20 deaths I have " Died, like the wolf, in silence." But the tune has at length come when the cause and the object of my=20 marvellous and doomed existence must be made known; that the pride of the=20 Gentiles may be abated, and that the scattered people of Israel may know=20 that they verily shall be a kingdom mighty, to save and to destroy, and=20 that they shall see the advent of their Messias, and the utter confusion=20 and abasement of the insolent and false followers of the Nazarine! "Tarry!" Aye, I have indeed tarried; and I must tarry yet a little while=20 ere the mighty spell can be utterly broken, anti the Lion of Judah=20 triumphant over the nations. In what nation have I not lived and suffered?= =20 In what nation have I not exerted a mighty, though unseen, power, in=20 producing that gradual rise of my scattered and erring, but still sacred=20 and peculiar, people, which will so shortly terminate in the rebuilding of= =20 the Temple of Jerusalem in the subjection of the Kings of the Gentiles to=20 the sway of the long tried, long suffering, and at length restored, people= =20 of the Most High? The false powers will at length be smitten down by the=20 true; and the temporal triumph of God's chosen people illustrated and=20 consummated by the veritable advent of the veritable Messias. "Tarry!"=20 Tyrant! I have tarried; I have wielded the power of the thousand powers=20 which may not resist the word of authority spoken by him who has looked=20 unmoved and unrebuked upon the glories of the Shechinah, who has lifted the= =20 veil of the temple, penetrated into the holy of holies, and learned the=20 words of power engraven upon the signet of the master of all wisdom, and of= =20 all demons, good and evil the marvellous, the glorious Solomon. Ill taught, as are the myriads who put their vain trust in the prophet who= =20 died on Calvary, and led away as they are by a thousand vain conceits and=20 cunningly devised fables, even they have some faint understanding of the=20 wisdom of the great Solomon, whose name be reverenced! Selah! But they=20 have only a glimmering of light; they can see only an atom of the vast=20 whole of his wisdom and his might; it is needful therefore that they should= =20 learn from me what their false philosophy would never teach them, what=20 their false faith shall vainly forbid them to believe. They must believe=20 the truth, for it shall chastise them; the word is spoken, Judah shall=20 rejoice over their confusion, yea, Israel shall be very glad. Though the bigoted and vain Nazarenes know that the great Solomon builded=20 to the Most High a temple of exceeding beauty and exceeding costliness,=20 marvellous to think of, though they know that his wisdom filled the nations= =20 of the earth with wonder, and caused King Hiram and the Queen of Sheba to=20 look upon him with much reverence; though they know that in wealth, as in=20 wisdom, Solomon was pre-eminent among the mighty ones of the earth,=20 insomuch that none other prince than he could have builded that temple,=20 which he dedicated to the worship of the one only God; yet, so=20 narrow-minded and grovelling are these Nazarenes, that they divine not,=20 neither will they confess, that the wealth and power of the great Solomon=20 were but the natural consequence of that ineffable wisdom which was=20 bestowed upon him when his soul, in a night dream, replied wisely and=20 worthily to the question that was vouchsafed to him from above. Nay, so infatuated are they, so surrounded by the outermost gloom of a more= =20 than Cimmerian darkness, that they they! in the petty pride of the ten=20 thousand contradictions which they call philosophy, take upon themselves to= =20 deny the interference of the supernal powers in the progress of mundane=20 affairs; though a single glance at their own version of the history of the= =20 wise son of David would, one would suppose, suffice to show them that only= =20 by the aid of those powers, subjected to his unspeakable wisdom, could=20 Solomon have amassed and expended the treasures which upreared the temple.= =20 >From the cedar that is on Lebanon to the hyssop that groweth upon the=20 wall, Solomon knew the nature and the properties of every thing that=20 springeth up from the pregnant earth; and, divinely taught and divinely=20 authorised, he had elixirs potent for all purposes, and words of might=20 which the demons hear in their far abodes, and which, hearing, they must ob= ey. As an instance of the unbelieving and deceitful nature of the scribes who=20 from the day of Calvary even to the present hour have laboured in their=20 vocation to hoodwink the worldly and fat-hearted generations, and to keep=20 them unaware of the powers of that magic which, partially revealed to=20 Moses, was entirely unveiled to the steadfast and eagle glance of Solomon,= =20 I may demand, who among the multitudinous sects of the Nazarene has any=20 knowledge of that wondrous and invaluable root, BAARA? That wondrous root=20 which could only be drawn from its parent earth, on being sprinkled with=20 human blood, unless at the expense of the instant death of the animal=20 compelled to draw it? I venture affirm that not one, save Fabricius, has=20 ever alluded to this wondrous root, except in what the Christians as=20 ignorantly as insolently term "Talmudical fables." And yet it is perfectly= =20 true that it is the quality of this root, as is averred by sundry writers=20 of our despised and persecuted race, to cast out evil demons from people=20 possessed; and, though it is never known to more than one person of our=20 race, a preparation of this root, aided by the words of might en-raven upon= =20 the signet of Solomon, is potent excedingly in tasking the hidden powers,=20 and in discovering the most hidden things. Poor fools! these Gentiles! Bid by magic divinely taught and divinely=20 authorised, how deem they that Moses, that mighty chieftain in Israel,=20 foiled the Egyptian Magii at their own weapons, and vexed the land of Egypt= =20 with many plagues, even until the peculiar people of God made a glorious=20 Exodus from the land of bondage? Do they deem that by any other means than= =20 magic, so taught, and so authorised, Joshua the son of Nun could have made= =20 the sun stand still upon Gibeon, and the moon in the valley of Ajalon? Touching the root Baara, even the secular learning of the false worshipping= =20 people who call themselves Christians, might teach them that its power in=20 the casting out of devils, was well known to our fathers, and demonstrated= =20 even to those appointed scourges of Judah, the heathen Romans, whose names= =20 be Anathema, Anathema Maranatha. For the priest Eleazer did cast out by its= =20 means the demon which had possessed a certain man; and that the bloody and= =20 sagacious Vespasian who was there present when this merciful deed was done,= =20 might be convinced that the demon did indeed depart, though the exceeding=20 tenuity of spiritual existences will not allow them to be visible to other= =20 eyes, than those from which occult science has removed the scales the=20 venerable Eleazer commanded that a vessel should be placed at a=20 considerable distance from the person possessed, the which vessel, in=20 obedience to the commands of Eleazer, the demon, in departing did forcibly= =20 throw down and empty. But my proper task will not allow me to bestow further time upon the crude= =20 notions or the blind and fanatical bigotry of the detested Nazarenes. The=20 all but omnipotent signet of Solomon was deposited by that greatest of=20 earthly princes in the Temple of Jerusalem; and in the Holy of Holies,=20 entered only by the great High Priest, reposed that gem of price and power= =20 unspeakable. When the temple was plundered by the heathen, and when our people were=20 despitefully treated and led into captivity for their sins the vessels of=20 silver and the vessels of gold were grasped by the unholy hands of the=20 conquering soldiery Nebuchadonozor and Cyrus bore away the wealth of=20 Jerusalem; but not the signet, which was from the beginning destined to=20 work out the salvation of Judah when her sins should be fully expiated, and= =20 her people once more an acceptable people in the sight of the Lord. But though the dim light of tradition caused every successive high priest=20 carefully to guard against the discovery of the precious treasure, even the= =20 high priest knew not all the wonders of that treasure. It was reserved for= =20 me, the doomed, the mysterious, the ever-changing in body, the=20 unchangeable, the everlasting in spirit, to learn, even while hosts=20 barbaric pressed towards the Holy of Holies, the saving wealth that rested= =20 therein. And thus it happened. In the seventieth year after the death of=20 him whom the Nazarenes call Messias, and on the seventeenth day of the=20 month called Panemus, in the Syro-Macedonian tongue, but in the Hebrew=20 Jamuz, the dread enemy of our nation, the Roman Titus had so far reduced=20 the doomed defenders of the Holy City, that the daily sacrifice could no=20 longer be offered; and then knew all those in whom the only true religion=20 had produced the spirit of prophecy that the temple would indeed fall. I need not recount the horrors of the succeeding days of the siege; or is=20 it not written in the book of the apostate Josephus how the temple was=20 polluted by the blood of our people, shed by each other as well as by the=20 Romans? How that famine was abroad glaring with fierce eyes, and made=20 horribly visible in gaunt and spectral forms? How that a mother maddened by= =20 famine slew her child, yea, her first-born and her only one, and banguetted= =20 in horrible eagerness upon his roasted body? Alas! the apostate Jew and=20 divers writers among the Nazarenes, have dilated but too truly and too=20 sufficiently upon the awful scenes that passed in every street, aye, in=20 every house in the devoted city of the living God. Let me then hasten to=20 that concluding scene, which gave the Holy of Holies to the flames; but at= =20 the same time gave to me that Talisman, which, eighteen hundred years=20 later, was to rebuild the city and the temples, and prepare the people of=20 God for the dominion of the whole earth, and for the advent of the=20 veritable Messias. Selah! Let it be done. It is about to be done. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20 . . . . . . . . . . . Urged by I know not what divine fury, I had descended from the Upper City,= =20 where I had been gazing upon the flaming sword, which illuminated the=20 heavens, even at mid-day. I passed unscathed through the outer court of the= =20 temple, now polluted by the bodies of the dying and the dead, and slippery= =20 with much blood. Scarcely had I made my way beyond the partition wall,=20 which had been erected for the separation of the Jews from the unbelieving= =20 Gentiles; when, from one of the many apartments that were on the north side= =20 of the holy house, a lurid pillar of fire suddenly shot upward, and in an=20 instant ten thousand fiery tongues darted from it in every direction, and a= =20 cry of horror and alarm arose from ten thousand combatants within and=20 around the temple. To cleave to the earth the destroying Roman, who was in= =20 the very act of leaping into the inner court, after snatching from its=20 blaze the torch with which he had now fired the holy house, was but the=20 work of an instant; that done, I pressed forward up the acclivity which led= =20 to the altar of Burnt Offering, where the High Priest, who had succeeded=20 the fugitives, Joseph and Jesus, was surrounded by combatants, and in an=20 evident agony of anxiety to make his way into the Holy of Holies. With a=20 loud cry I threw myself forward into the throng and the strife ; but though= =20 I was swift, I was too tardy to save the venerable man, who, at the very=20 moment that I gained his side, was transfixed by a Roman dart. I raised him= =20 and bore him towards the Sanctuary, but though life was fast gushing forth= =20 from his ghastly wound, he was a Jewish priest still-true to his God, his=20 faith, and his office. "Pollute not the holy place! Forbear, set me down=20 here," he exclaimed; and in a niche, which was as yet unthreatened by the=20 devouring element, I set him down, and raised his drooping head, and wiped= =20 the big damps of death rom his lofty brow, all tenderly, as would a nursing= =20 mother support and tend a dying child. His breathing came shorter and shorter, and his limbs became rigid; but the= =20 agonies of death had no power over the energies of religion; and he did not= =20 expire till he had commanded me to penetrate the Holy of Holies, and to=20 snatch thence and from the very centre of the ark, the Talisman of our=20 people, even the signet of the wise Solomon the Shemama-phorah. Not even the behest of the high priest would have caused any other Jew to=20 enter that mysterious and most sacred place. But I! what had I, the=20 wanderer, to fear? I passed the brazen pillars, Joachim and Booz, and I reached the golden=20 cherubim, ten cubits in height, whose outspread wings, reaching from the=20 southern wall to the northern wall of the Holy of Holies, had hitherto=20 concealed for ages its sacred mysteries from unpermitted eyes. I paused, but for a moment; the golden gates were passed, the cherubim no=20 longer hid the ark from my gaze; and, God! by what a galaxy of glories was= =20 I dazzled! The floor and the walls were of fine gold, glittering with the=20 splendour of ten thousand fires, and reflecting back the many coloured and= =20 living lights that flashed from Onyx and from Sapphire; from Chrysolite and= =20 from Amethyst; and from every precious stone from every part of the earth.= =20 Having drawn aside with resolute hand the embroidered veil of purple and=20 scarlet, behold! I stood within the Holy of Holies; and there over against= =20 the eastern end I beheld an altar of solid and unornamented gold. Upon=20 either side of the altar was a hollow candlestick of gold, adorned with=20 lilies and pomgranates of gems and fretted gold. But upon the table! Even I= =20 shook in every fibre with much awe, as I looked upon the ark of shittim=20 wood, which in Hebrew is called Eton. It was five spans long by three in=20 height and breadth; and was strongly ornamented with plates of fine gold,=20 and on the top were two cherubims of the like precious material. In that=20 lay the palladium of our people-the seal of Solomon; and I I! was to=20 stretch forth my hand and seize it! The lid of the ark yielded to my mere touch, and mine eyes fell upon the=20 precious signet. It consisted of a single cincture of massive gold, set=20 with a single gem; but such a gem. Well might the fiends, well might the=20 powers of earth and hell shrink from the steadfast gaze of its possessor,=20 and busy themselves in doing his behest. In the centre of the gem was=20 engraven the ineffable name of God, and around it in mingled radiance=20 Diamond, of Sapphire, of Ruby, and Emerald, the seeming of ten thousand=20 eyes gleamed with divine ardour to which the lurid lightnings of the=20 stormiest heaven are but as a meteor that dances upon the morass. I stood=20 as one fascinated, terrified, petrified; I would fain have stretched out my= =20 hand, but my arm was paralyzed; I would have cried aloud, but my tongue=20 clove to the root of my mouth. As I stood thus entranced a shout in the=20 outer portion of the temple announced the arrival of Titus and his=20 followers. In a few moments the Holy of Holies, the Ark, the very Seal of=20 Solomon, would be bared to the gaze of the profane, violated by the hands=20 of the foeman and the robber. I stretched forth my hand and grasped the=20 signet; a report as of ten thousand thunders shook the whole fabric around= =20 me, and I felt myself seized by a giant hand, whose grasp deprived me of my= =20 senses at the very moment that I saw the majestic though somewhat corpulent= =20 form of Titus within the hitherto sacred place. How long I remained=20 entranced I know not. When I at length awakened to a sense of my situation,= =20 I was far, far away from the bloodshed and tumult, from the trampling of=20 the victors, and the passionate but unheeded entreaties of the dying and=20 the captive. The moon, the pale-visaged Astarte of the Phoenicians, was=20 high in heaven, shedding around a flood of silvery light such as she can=20 never bestow upon this land of cloud and fog. I lay beneath a majestic=20 palm, and close beside me gushed a fountain, making a delightful music in=20 the otherwise unbroken silence of the night. It was by slow degrees that=20 all the scenes through which I had so recently passed became clearly and=20 completely recalled to my memory; and, oh God! with what horror did I not=20 thrill when I discovered that the signet of Solomon was no longer in my=20 possession! I should have raved, Heaven pardon me, I believe I should have blasphemed;= =20 but before I could give utterance to my agony, there arose beside me a low,= =20 sweet, musical, but withal, most solemn and majestic voice and the mighty=20 change that had come over my spirit and freed it from the dull and=20 inapprehensive obtuseness of mere mortality, enabled me to know that that=20 voice came from no created mortal. I knew that the voice was a voice from=20 above, and my heart leaped with an exceeding gladness, for I heard much=20 mercy, and was blessed with a most wondrous mission, and with a trust which= =20 they who sit upon the blood-stained thrones of the perverted earth might=20 envy with a power to which they must speedily bow down in humility and in=20 dread. It was revealed to me that though the curse of him of Nazareth must for a=20 time have power, and though, until the regeneration of our people should be= =20 at hand, his power should go on increasing among the nations, the curse his= =20 hate and tyranny has laid upon me should be converted into a saving mercy=20 to Israel, a pillar of light to guide and guard the wanderers of Judah.=20 Words of might were graven upon my soul, even the words of the signet of=20 Solomon which all Genii must obey, and I was sent forth to live the bodily= =20 life and die the bodily death in divers places; but with ever one task, one= =20 trust to teach the trampled Jew to become very mighty in despoiling his=20 oppressors, very cunning in availing himself of their hearts' leprosy=20 avarice. Ages upon ages have rolled by; where populous cities and the=20 palaces of kings once stood, the bat and the owl and all obscene and=20 grovelling reptiles are now the sole lords, the sole tenants; and where I=20 have battled with the gaunt wolf, and disputed with the bear his forest=20 haunt, hundreds of thousands of human beings dwell in cities of strength=20 and splendour; the many wearing out their lives in squalor and in toil,=20 that has little recompense and no cessation, the few looking down in=20 insolent and unsparing scorn upon those who starve, that the tyrant and the= =20 cheat may fare sumptuously every day. All nations have been in turn the=20 scene of my exertions; all ranks, all pursuits, have in turn been made=20 subservient to the Holy and Appointed end; Jerusalem, Oh beloved Jerusalem,= =20 I have toiled to uprear thee in power and in great splendour! The appointed= =20 hour is at hand; and then HE cometh, at whose benignant and resistless word= =20 the curse of my foe, the fell curse that was pronounced upon me on Calvary,= =20 shall be removed, and my spirit shall have rest. Whether leading the war galley of Venice to the discomfiture and slaughter= =20 of the Paynims, or pursuing the business of a merchant in Spain, with the=20 terrors of the Inquisition ever before me, if discovered in my secret=20 practice of the sacred faith of my forefathers; whether passing my youth in= =20 the sweet tranquility of an Alpine valley, or amid the roar of waters and=20 the crash of battle; whether in one age wielding the sword and the lance of= =20 the condottieri in the cause now of one and now of the other of the=20 venomous little republics of Italy, or in another aiding the revolt of=20 Massaniello at Naples, or catering to the amusements of Louis XIV. at=20 Paris; in all times, in all characters, in all places, from the instant=20 that my spirit, in each new body has been called anew to self-knowledge, by= =20 the sweet low whisper oh! how full of hope to the Wanderer! "Tarry thou=20 until I come," all my energies have been devoted to the performance of my t= ask. The bigotry of a whole people, and the cupidity of their tyrant could=20 easily degrade the Jew in social condition; debar him from this or that=20 privilege, condemn him to this or that bunthen, and brand him with an=20 outward and visible token of his debasement; but the Jew could always amass= =20 wealth, preserve wealth, and by his wealth, he, the trampled slave, could=20 always mock the sufferings and sway the fate of the haughtiest and=20 bloodiest of his oppressors. Aye! the Talismanic power has ever been at=20 work; in every land hath its influence at some time been felt, in every=20 land have I at some time made one of my people a mighty man, in the=20 despoiling of the princes and the people who believe in the prophet of=20 Nazareth. Jehovah! how have I scorned the enemies of thy people, when I have seen=20 them waiting with pallid cheek and downcast eyes for the fiat of the=20 enriched Jew to consign them to instant and utter beggary, or to aid them=20 to struggle on a little longer in the hope of gain to themselves, but in=20 reality only to swell his gains and add to the righteous usury which shall= =20 raise up thy peculiar people, and make glorious the towers of Zion. Alas! how easier far it is to give the Talisman by which riches can be=20 commanded, than it is to inspire a human heart with that intense love of=20 the antique abiding place of our race, which alone can justify me in=20 bestowing the potency and the splendour of riches! How often have I not had= =20 to lament the backsliding, and the degenerate self-love of my chosen=20 instruments? With what disgust have I not taken from them their abused=20 trust; with what scorn have I not seen them reduced to despair and=20 self-destruction, by the deprivation of that which I bestowed on them, not= =20 for their own petty purposes, but that Israel might be redeemed from her=20 debasement. Ask who enabled Neckar for a time to support the boundless extravagance of= =20 the Court of Louis XVI. and Marie Antoinette, and history, the jest book of= =20 wise men and the oracle of fools, will tell you that it was his genius. I=20 can tell another tale! It was I, it was the talismanic power which I gave=20 him for a brief breathing space, to inspire his friends with admiration and= =20 his enemies with envy. I withdrew that power, and there arose that scene of= =20 bloodshed and confiscation which was especially necessary to enable my=20 people to spoil all the nations of Europe, even as our forefathers by=20 divine commandment did spoil their Egyptian task-masters. Verily the Jews=20 have had their revenge! From the revolution of France sprang bloody and=20 expensive wars; from those wars sprang royal indigence and national=20 extremity, which raised up that Christian Moloch of loan jobbery and public= =20 debts wherein the present race battens on the spoils and devours the labour= =20 of its offspring; and now, now was the time when the Jewish people might=20 banquet in the halls of princes, where once their very presence would have= =20 been deemed pollution. Now was the time when the aggrandisement of my=20 people could not without sin be neglected. England became the resort of=20 thousands of our oppressed people; and if England insulted and spat upon=20 them in theory, it at least supplied them with wealth boundless and with=20 dupes innumerable. A chieftain of our people became as necessary, then, in= =20 England, as formerly in Venice, in Genoa, in Antwerp, in Bruges, or more=20 recently in Paris. From the death of Louis XVI. to the consulship of=20 Napoleon Buonaparte, I rarely conferred the visible talisman, for however=20 brief a space of time, upon any one; it was necessary that all my people=20 should be up and doing, that each should be amassing his portion; there was= =20 a harvest too large for any single reaper; and leaving to themselves the=20 native wit of the Jew and the native propensity of the Gentile to overshoot= =20 his mark, by indulging his own bad passions, I looked calmly on, seeing in= =20 every bloody battlefield the precursor of a new loan in every new loan the= =20 most perfect of human inventions for the transfer of the wealth of the=20 Gentile to the strong boxes of the Jew. The result fully justified my reliance on the self-destroying talents of=20 the Nazarenes; the Jews of England amply avenged the Norman atrocities of=20 the older day; and what the Norman took from the Saxons by the stroke of=20 the battle-axe and the broad sword, the Jews now took from the at once=20 insolent and ignorant descendants of those Normans by the stroke of that=20 far mightier weapon the pen. The first of my people whom I pitched upon to wield the Talismanic=20 influence in England was one whose name will in an instant be recognized by= =20 all the votaries and high priests of Mammon, whether Jew or Christian. I=20 allude to Solomon Salvador. I found him a comparatively poor man; I made=20 him in a brief space the marvel of all who knew him. The wildest=20 speculation he could undertake was sure to prosper; and the magnates of the= =20 nation sought his advice when troubled with the common and very painful=20 disease of Impecuniosity. This success was as brief as it was brilliant. The fool! did he suppose=20 that power was entrusted to him, that wealth was placed within his reach=20 for the bidding, merely that he should call a mountainous mass of brick and= =20 mortar after his name, fill it with luxuries from every quarter of the=20 globe, and then spread the banquet and illuminate the saloon to welcome the= =20 high-born fool and the high-born harlot, and make glad their hearts with=20 wine and music, while the towers of Jerusalem lay in ruin, and the remnant= =20 of our people sat cowering beneath the insolent trampling of the the men of= =20 blood? Fool, thrice foolish! I deprived him of the talismanic power, and=20 his wealth melted away from him fast as the snow melts beneath the ardent=20 beams of the sun. His familiar friends saw that he waxed poor, and in the=20 short-sighted wisdom of this world they attributed his downfall to=20 imprudent speculation, to extravagant expenditure, to anything and=20 everything except the true cause; and he died poor, neglected, forgotten. Possessed of the words of power which the genii must obey, and using those= =20 words of power for the great end to which I am ordained, I can convert any= =20 thing into a talisman omnipotent in the accumulation of wealth for its=20 possessor. The merest trinket, the commonest article of either use or=20 ornament, under the influence of these resistless words, becomes in the=20 hands of its possessor, a weapon mighty as the sceptre of Nisroch. After I had withdrawn the talisman from Salvador, I cast my eyes about=20 among the young men of Israel, seeking one upon whom I might confer the=20 power which my degenerate protege had proved himself unworthy to be=20 possessed of. Alas! to find one in all respects worthy of so high and so=20 holy a trust was no light task. Ability, indeed, I found in great abundance= =20 among my people: but one was prone to the use of wine, another looked all=20 too fondly on the blue eyes and fair tresses of the daughters of the=20 Gentiles, even of the men whom we call the English; one wasted his time in= =20 the light and profane buffooneries of the theatre; while another, though=20 innocent of all these things, though clever, industrious, and frugal, even= =20 to parsimony, was wedded to his own base interests, and incapable of=20 casting a thought upon the degradation of his ancient race, or upon the=20 ruin of the city of the temple of God even Jerusalem. It chanced that as I on a day took my stand on that grandest of all the=20 money marts of the world, the Exchange of London, my attention was=20 attracted by the saddened yet intelligent aspect of one whom I knew at a=20 glance to be one of our ancient and fallen people, who in the midst of all= =20 their degradations cannot lose that peculiar physiognomy which=20 distinguishes them from all other races, and in the very perpetuation of=20 which the Nazarenes, had not God hardened their hearts and deadened their=20 understandings, would see a proof, among many, that the Jewish nation is=20 not wholly cast off, but will, in the good and appointed time, be gathered= =20 together from all parts, and reinstated in the sovereignty of Palestine. Drawing nigh to the person of whom I had thus taken notice, I overheard=20 some few words he interchanged with an acquaintance; and those few words=20 led me to believe that I had at length found the very man I wanted, for he= =20 spoke Hebrew with the purity and energy of a high priest of the tine when=20 the temple was in its pride of place, and ministered in by the very flower= =20 of our people. Moreover, though his aspect lead but so lately been saddened= =20 and downcast, his eyes now glowed, his mien was erect, his gestures were=20 energetic, and above all, in deciding my opinion in his favour, he cursed=20 the Nazarenes both deeply and bitterly, and vowed to avenge his wrong upon= =20 them hereafter. What was that wrong? Faugh! What had I to do with the=20 individual wrongs of any one? He hated the Christians, and burned to injure= =20 them; that was all I cared for; and I vigilantly watched him until, the=20 Exchange closing for the day, he retired to a neighbouring tavern to dine. What a guttling and guzzling set of swine your mere worldling's are! A=20 tavern in the good City of London is neither more nor less than a=20 compendious system of damnation; where gluttony and strong wines make=20 sinners of all sorts and size on the six days of the week; their temples,=20 which they call churches, being hermetically sealed to the Nazarenes on=20 every day save the seventh. Gluttony, strong drink, and the sinful thoughts= =20 and unclean deeds which they inspire, have the six days prayer and=20 repentance only one! Ah! this is surely a people whom it is especially=20 lawful and praiseworthy to lay under contribution, that the temple may be=20 rebuilt, and that our ancient faith may extend through the whole earth and= =20 purify it. Much as I abhor the devouring and the wassail, which make men to resemble=20 the unclean swine rather than the chief creation and most wonderful=20 masterpiece of God, I sat patiently in this scene of ecstatic and egregious= =20 devouring until I found an opportunity to hold converse with the young man= =20 upon whom I had fixed my attention. What passed between us it needs not now= =20 to particularize; suffice it to say, that on the very next day he netted a= =20 hundred thousand pounds, two Christian speculators slew themselves in=20 despair, and ten times that number of the smaller fry took their leave of=20 the Exchange with a very sincere resolution to return to it no more. For a time my new protege was all that I could desire; but with wealth came= =20 luxury, and with luxury come an indifference to the grand object for which= =20 I had raised him up from comparative penury; and made him sought,=20 flattered, followed, all but worshipped by the great herd of those who=20 traffic in gain for the sake and for the love of things worldly and perisha= ble. It was in vain that I urged him, ever and anon, to busy himself for the=20 restoration and the triumph of his long-suffering and widely dispersed=20 people. Pomp and luxury, flattery and ease, had done their work, and he too= =20 was destined to experience that what the Lord giveth, that also tile Lord=20 can take away. Charitable he was, but it was in the wise of the blind=20 Gentiles; looking with dull dead eyes upon the great wrongs and great=20 afflictions of the multitude, and frittering away time, and feeling, and=20 hard gold, upon the petty relief of the petty miseries of individuals. Charitable! why Jew and Gentile, the free man and the bond slave, of this=20 most anomalous metropolis of this most anomalous nation, upon the face of=20 God's beautiful, but wrong fraught earth, would shout in contradiction,=20 were I to deny the charity of the great Abraham Goldsmid! Aye, let the Nazarene dogs lift their hands and eyes in ignorant wonder;=20 the great Goldsmid was my very and mere instrument; I raised him because I= =20 deemed him worthy. I found him incompetent to the vast and sacred duty I=20 designed him for, and I dashed him down even as we cast aside the gourd=20 when we no longer require a drinking cup. Who among the elder frequenters=20 of the great temple of mammon, which is called the Exchange, does not=20 remember the golden box with which the hand of Goldsmid was perpetually=20 occupied in his busiest and most important moments? It was his talisman. The words of power had been pronounced above it; with it he could encounter= =20 a world and be triumphant; without he was as the stripling David, without=20 God, would have been to the giant champion of Philistia. I had warned him=20 again and again; I had menanced, I had entreated, but in vain: I found him= =20 incorrigible in his neglect of the cause of our people and our God; and=20 even while he was wassailing at his luxurious villa in the neighbourhood of= =20 Morden, the words of power went forth from my lips, and his talisman had=20 departed from him for ever. Large rewards were vainly offered for what all= =20 but himself supposed to be a mere toy, a mere thing of effeminate luxury;=20 but those rewards were offered in vain. He appeared upon the Exchange=20 without his palladium; bargained-lost-and saw absolute ruin looking at him= =20 with steadfast and unpitying eyes. Ten days he bore this, AND THEN BLEW HIS= =20 BRAINS OUT! None can be false to our cause and prosper. The progress of that most marvellous of modern characters Napoleon=20 Buonaparte soon diverted my thoughts from the vexations caused by the folly= =20 and consequent ruin of my deceased protege; and hastily leaving England, I= =20 arrived at Frankfort just as that city was invested and occupied by the=20 French troops. I have seen so many towns taken by storm, and, when taken, delivered up to= =20 all that the utmost license and cruelty of the most licentious and cruel=20 troops could inflict, that the fate of Frankfort seemed by comparison, to=20 be a mild one. And yet even there I saw enough to make the blood of an=20 ordinary man boil with indignation, or curdle with horror. With all the politeness of the French as individuals, large bodies of them= =20 are usually among the most ferocious of all assemblages. They seem to=20 resemble those chemical substances which, though separately quite harmless,= =20 cannot be brought into contact without producing disaster and destruction=20 to every one and every thing in their vicinity. In their revolution I have= =20 seen individuals in one hour comporting themselves towards the helpless=20 with all the courage of antique chivalry, and with all the touching=20 delicacy and tenderness of modern politeness; and I have seen those=20 self-same individuals in the next hour hideous with blood, and roaring with= =20 stentorian lungs for more victims. Separately good, they no sooner became=20 part of a multitude than the mania of fierceness fell upon their souls, and= =20 they became even as the fiends in unsparing cruelty. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . What is true of the French people is no less true of the French soldiery,=20 who certainly have never shown en masse any of that forbearance which few=20 indeed among them would fail to show as individuals. And if at Frankfort=20 murder, and the other disgusting violence which the conquered sometimes=20 have to endure from the homicidal hirelings, who make a glory and an honour= =20 of their most feculent and debased trade in blood; if these were not among= =20 the sins to be charged upon the soldiery of France, they amply made up for= =20 any inconvenience they experienced from balking their lust and love of=20 bloodshed. It is impossible to conceive anything more complete than the=20 plunder of the unhappy people of Frankfort. Every thing that was portable=20 was carried off; every marauding soldier had his two or three watches ;=20 diamonds glittered on the dirty fingers, or still dirtier linen of those=20 ruffians; family plate, consecrated by a thousand tender reminiscences, was= =20 melted openly in the streets, and transferred in unsightly lumps to the=20 knapsacks of its new owners. The skill of man was in vain employed to=20 conceal the spoil, the tears and supplications of women were in vain=20 employed to move the spoilers to moderation in their marauding. The people of Frankfort were a conquered people, the brave French soldiers= =20 were conquerors; and though glory, no doubt, is a very fine thing, your=20 thorough soldier enjoys it not a jot the less for being accompanied by a=20 goodly proportion of plunder. The few people who succeeded in saving some trifling amount of money, were,= =20 for the time, scarcely better off than those who were plundered to the very= =20 last thaler. For your heroes have prodigious appetites and the vast=20 consumption of food of every description by the French troops, the terror=20 which kept the country people from bringing their produce into the city,=20 and the blessed propensity of all dealers and shopmen, in all times and=20 countries, to raise their prices in the exact ratio of the wretchedness and= =20 suffering of their fellow creatures, speedily reduced five out of every six= =20 families in Frankfort to absolute want. In saying this, I speak of those=20 ranks of people to whom, previously, want had been utterly unknown, save as= =20 a thing which (as their individual disposition chanced to be) they pitied=20 and relieved, or despised and insulted in the persons of their inferiors.=20 Want being thus introduced to homes, where previously it had been unseen=20 and unfelt, it needs no elaborate argument to show that where want had=20 always existed, absolute famine now made its appearance. All trade, save in= =20 articles of food, was at a standstill ; and at the very moment when the=20 poor were thus cut off from earning the poor pittance to which they had=20 been accustomed, every article of food was tripled, and many articles=20 quadrupled in price. Fearful, oh! very fearful, were the scenes which I witnessed during the=20 brief stay of the marauding Gauls in Frankfort. Jew as I am, and detesting,= =20 as I do detest, the followers of the Nazarene, with a most holy and fervent= =20 detestation, even I pitied the unhappy wretches, and relieved their=20 miseries in more instances than I can now look back upon with anything=20 short of the most sovereign contempt for my temporary compassion. But if I, on some few occasions, tarried by the wayside to relieve some of= =20 the more extreme cases of privation and suffering, among the Nazarenes, I=20 was neither forgetful of my proper mission, nor weary in forwarding the=20 great work. It is well known to all the world that Frankfort has long been the abiding= =20 place of not a few of the people of my race; and there are few European=20 cities in which the blessing has more manifestly been bestowed upon their=20 industry and talents. Among the wealthiest of the inhabitants of Frankfort,= =20 were certain Jews; I need not add that they were also among the first who=20 were laid under contribution by the unprincipled and avaricious invaders.=20 Finding vast stores of wealth in the possession of some Jews, the French=20 positively, though somewhat illogically, concluded that to be very wealthy= =20 was an inseparable consequence of being a Jew, and the whole of our people,= =20 even down to those who obtained their daily bread by the lowest toils, and= =20 the utmost possible difficulty, were harassed by domiciliary visits=20 questioned by the officers insulted, and sometimes even beaten by the men;= =20 and, finally, enjoined severally to provide the most preposterous sums of=20 money by a certain given day. Avoiding, as far as possible, attracting the attention of the tyrants, I=20 passed from house to house, leaving no very large sum of money at any one=20 house at any one time; but taking especial care that however the followers= =20 of the Nazarene, because born in different countries, and speaking=20 different tongues, might inflict upon each other the awful agonies=20 attendant upon absolute want of food, no Israelite should lack wherewith to= =20 feed himself and his wife, and the little ones that were with them, and the= =20 man servant, and the maid servant, and the stranger that was within his gat= es. What mattered it that the thaler should be reduced to a tenth part of its=20 value by the abundance of money suddenly brought into circulation by the=20 French marauders, and that the price of every article of food should be=20 multiplied by twenty? Even then should my people be exempt from absolute=20 famine, for could I not command gold? Yea, should the city at length become= =20 absolutely destitute of food, had I not the talisman? Had I not the=20 ineffable words? Could I not buy the whole evil race, from the false=20 prophet even to the lowest among the evil genii? Could I not task them in=20 the midnight incantation, and, lo! would not plenty make the hearts of my=20 people glad at sunrise? So I went from house to house; and while I gave present aid, I spoke words= =20 of comfort and encouragement as to the future; and thus from day to to day= =20 I visited the houses of the Jews that were in Frankfort. But my motive was= =20 not merely the desire to afford them temporal aid; contrariwise, while=20 alleviating the temporal sufferings of my people, I was, day by scanning=20 the young men with an intelligent and vigilant eye; for where, if not among= =20 the shamefully plundered and trampled Hebrews of Frankfort, might I hope to= =20 find a zealous hater of the Nazarenes, a man exceedingly desirous of=20 working their degradation and destruction? All men are in some sort the=20 creatures and the victims of their own bad passions, even patriotism=20 itself; yea, even religious zeal, to the very verge of ferocious bigotry,=20 can be called into a fiery and active existence by personal wrong, and the= =20 personal hate which that infallibly engenders. An Englishman may read with horror and with detestation the bloodstained=20 records of the bloody and relentless Inquisition of old Spain; but faint,=20 indeed, are his horror and detestation compared to those that tear the=20 heart and madden the brain of him who has seen and borne the Inquisition's= =20 unimaginable tortures. It is only the wrong which man himself endures that= =20 he can thoroughly appreciate ; and here, even while want and sorrow were at= =20 work, and famine itself but barely kept at arm's length here it was that I= =20 might most hopefully seek for a champion to avenge the wrongs of Israel. I= =20 sought carefully, and I did not seek in vain ; a case soon came to my=20 knowledge which abundantly contained all the elements requisite for my purp= ose. Among the number of Israelitish families to which my gold and my sympathy=20 gave me a ready admission and a very glad welcome, there was one to which I= =20 was especially attached, both for its own sake and for the sake of=20 associations of eighteen centuries duration. I speak of the family of=20 Solomon De Milheim. If ever modern countenance bore the stamp and impress=20 of our patriarchs of the old time assuredly it was the countenance of the=20 old man, De Milheim ; if ever the beauty of the manly youth of Jerusalem,=20 when Jerusalem was happy, was exactly represented in the rising age, it was= =20 represented by his sons; and in his daughters the sunnyeyed and ebon-haired= =20 maidens of ancient Judah seemed once more to adorn and glorify the earth=20 with their bright presence. But it was not from such general resemblance that I became so peculiarly=20 attached to this family. Alas! no; I was drawn thitherward by a most=20 melancholy pleasure; for in the elder daughter of De Milheim I gazed upon=20 the very counterpart of my adored and most lovely Leah, of the stag-eyed=20 wife of my young bosom, whose pure spirit fled the sinful and hard world on= =20 the very day on which he, the avenging one of Nazareth, doomed me to long=20 ages of agony and of travail. It was during one of my visits to the family of De Milheim that I heard of= =20 a worthy instrument for upholding and forwarding of my sacred and high=20 cause; and I forthwith departed in quest of him, and speedily reached his=20 abode. Without, it was dingy, and uninviting as the abodes of even the wealthiest= =20 of our persecuted, and therefore politic, people are wont to be ; and when= =20 I crossed the now unprotected threshold, all within was dismantled and=20 disordered, as formerly it had been sumptuous and tasteful. Unquestioned and unseen I passed through the various apartments, when on a= =20 sudden, just as I had reached the little sanctum of the now solitary tenant= =20 of the once crowded house, I heard the clash of arms in the hall beneath;=20 and I had but just time to pronounce the words of great power, which render= =20 me invisible to mortal ken, when a French officer passed within a foot of=20 the spot upon which I stood, and threw open the door of the little study=20 with the insolent violence of irresponsible and unprincipled power. As he=20 entered I glided in, and he shut the door as violently as he had opened it. Seated at an antique writing table was the unhappy master of this desolated= =20 house. His eyes were red as with much weeping, and his cheeks were pale and= =20 haggard, as with much sorrow and long vigils. The rude and sudden advent of the Nazarene man of blood and tyranny did not= =20 seem to alarm him; it simply and utterly stupefied him. His limbs were=20 stiffened, and his eyes fixed and leaden; and thus he sat, until aroused to= =20 consciousness by the martial and haughty tones of the stranger, commanding= =20 him to give gold. This demand effectually recalled the scattered senses of= =20 the unhappy man. "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!" he exclaimed, as, kneeling, he lifted=20 up his trembling hands to the east, "how long, O God! how long? Have they=20 not desolated thy servant's hearth, carried away his young men captive, and= =20 spoiled him even to the last thaler? Have they not stricken him with many=20 stripes, and cursed him with many curses? How long, O Lord, how long shall= =20 the unbeliever triumph, and thy people be a jest and a bye word, Samsons=20 shorn of their hair, and blind, but without the strength to draw down upon= =20 these new Philistines the roofs of their palaces, and crush them in the=20 hour of their tyranny and their scorn?" "Jew!" said the Nazarene warrior, and the whole fabric shook as he strode=20 across the apartment, "Jew! I am not here to listen to your lying=20 adjurations, I want gold, I will have gold; or, look you, not content with= =20 making you as bald and as blind as Samson; by the mother of God, I'll make= =20 you as dead as that stalwart worthy! "Now, as my soul liveth," replied the Hebrew, "I am spoiled to the last=20 thaler, yea, for this whole day have my lips not tasted of bread, from my=20 sheer and very poverty." "Bah!" cried the Nazarene, "what be these? Sacre! why they're fine gold and= =20 weigh a French pound to a sous!" and so saying, he laid violent hand upon=20 the teraphim, even the images which the heathen of the old day would have=20 termed Lares. In the extremity of his grief, and in the delusive hope that= =20 the Nazarene plunderers had paid him their last visit the unhappy young man= =20 of Israel had drawn the teraphim from their secure hiding place, and, lo!=20 the hand of the spoiler was upon them, and the soul of the young man was=20 bowed down, stricken to the very earth with this consummation of the=20 calamity of his house. It was in vain that the pitiless plunderer=20 blasphemed, and all in vain that he threatened many tortures, and even=20 death; for the young man spoke truly in that he was verily and, indeed=20 despoiled of all that remained to him on earth, save the clothes he wore=20 and the dismantled house which he inhabited. Wearied at length with his unprofitable violence, and perhaps, for a=20 desultory life of war and rapine makes the eye very skilful in discovering= =20 between truth and falsehood, convinced by the excess of the young man's=20 agony, that the words which he spake were indeed the words of truth, the=20 Nazarene cursing with many and deep curses, yet looking with no unpleased=20 eyes upon the golden teraphim which he bore away, departed, and the young=20 man found himself once more alone, and in the solitude of his sorrow he=20 poured forth his unavailing lamentations and cursed the Nazarenes, and=20 prayed in fervent tones that he might have power to crush them, and vowed=20 by the ineffable name of Jehovah to lose no opportunity of despoiling their= =20 wealth, and trampling down, yea, utterly bruising, their black and=20 unsparing, as unbelieving hearts. That was a glad moment to me. I would suffer over again the most bitter=20 misery of the most bitter of any of my many lives to enjoy but once in each= =20 day one such rapturous, such exulting moment. Here was a servant fit for=20 the great master here a champion fit for the great cause. His wrongs, his=20 agony, his fervour, his utter and hopeless poverty; aye, his own passions=20 and his own circumstances would make him a faithful and very zealous foeman= =20 to the Nazarene of whatever nation. Here was, at length, the man, the long= =20 hoped, the long sought, who should build up the the temple of the Lord, and= =20 make Israel and Judah feared and obeyed in all the quarters of the earth. As the young man prayed to the God of Abraham, and cursed the despoiling=20 and tyrannous followers of the Nazarene, I observed that he kept his eyes=20 constantly fixed upon the niche from which the man of blood had recently=20 drawn the teraphim. Placing myself, therefore, while still invisible,=20 immediately between him and that spot, I spake in my soul the words of=20 power, and to! on the instant I stood visible before him, tall in stature=20 as Saul when he was singled forth from the young men, but pallid as a=20 corpse, and with hoary hair and beard contrasting with ghastly effect the=20 supernatural glare of great black eyes that shot forth lurid fires upon=20 which no mortal could look and not tremble. The sudden appearance of such a figure, clad in the flowing robes of the=20 far East, and seeming to spring up from the bowels of the earth, might well= =20 appal even the most courageous, and the young man fell down before me, and= =20 exclaimed, "As my Lord liveth, his servant is despoiled, yea, utterly=20 undone; as my soul liveth, I have not a coin; yea, even the bonds of=20 parchment which bound many Nazarenes in the power of thy servant, behold,=20 they also are stolen gone for ever gone!" And, as he thus spake, he wrung his hands, and the big drops of=20 perspiration burst forth from his agonized countenance. I raised him from=20 the earth, and spake to him many comfortable words. He proposed to fly from= =20 the wretched city, but I forbade him; he spake in hopelessness and I=20 commanded him to hope; he spake in doubt and I compelled him to believe. I= =20 spake the words of power, and the talisman was once more committed to a man= =20 of my persecuted race. It chanced that there lay on the table before him a ring holding the keys=20 of his rifled drawers; and having spoken the words of power, and adjured=20 the demons by the ineffable name, I gave to that ring the influence and the= =20 might of the signet of the wise Solomon. Having done this, I commanded the= =20 young man to name some wish for instant accomplishment; and ere he had=20 thrice, according to my instructions, whirled round the ring upon his=20 forefinger, steps were heard as of one heavily laden, and I had scarcely=20 become again invisible, when a man carefully disguised, and bearing a large= =20 and very heavy bag, laboured slowly and painfully into the room. "Donner and Blitzen," said the new comer, as he threw down, with a, mighty= =20 crash as of much gold, the bag he had so sorely travailed under, "I would=20 scarcely play porter again to save my thalers! Time presses, the villains=20 are on the search once more wherever they deem that they have left a coin=20 or a coin's worth. You, I know, are for the present safe, for they are sure= =20 you are not worth their time. I know your honesty; and to your biding,=20 until better times come, I commit all the cash I have within fifty leagues,= =20 save so much as will prevent the fellows from cutting my throat in sheer=20 disappointment." And having thus spoken, while wiping the big drops from=20 his forehead, he waved his hand and took his departure. The young man=20 opened the bag, counted the several packets it contained and found the very= =20 sum for which he had wished aloud while making his first essay of the power= =20 of his talisman. Men of the accursed and plundering race! Ye, whose estates were within a=20 brief space to have been within his grasp; ye whose equipages and whose=20 liveried lacquies I so lately saw following to his premature grave the man= =20 of Israel whom I thus enabled to war upon ye in your most Vulnerable=20 quarter, accursed and detested Nazarenes the young Israelite, to whom I=20 thus committed the Talisman, and who thus early and thus fully experienced= =20 its mighty power, he who for years despoiled you of the gold which you make= =20 to yourselves, even as a god-that man whom ye fawned upon, even while you=20 hated him, and knew that he despised you--that man was NATHAN MEYER ROTHSCH= ILD! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20 . . . . . . . . . . . . Thus the man Nathan waxed wealthy, more wealthy than any who had gone=20 before him, his riches astonished the gentiles, and very justly they said,= =20 such amazing wealth could not be amassed by one man, in so short a time by= =20 any human agency, they were right, it was the agency of the talisman,=20 directed for a high and holy purpose, to redeem the holy land from the=20 pollution of the infidel, and to raise thy fallen towers, O Zion, from the= =20 dust. Carefully concealing the treasure thus entrusted to him, by burying it=20 beneath a tree in his little garden, while the murderous and plundering=20 French vexed the city with their presence, and using it subsequently for a= =20 brief space, with the certain and rapid success ensured to him by the=20 talisman, the young man Rothschild waxed wealthy; and when he had restored= =20 the treasure to the prince who had reposed trust in him, he came by my=20 direction, to this paradise of loan-contracting and speculating fools, and= =20 became the leviathan of the money markets of Europe. Thus Nathan became the= =20 loan contractor, the jobber, the money lender to the gentile kings. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20 . . . . . . . . . . . . Leaving him to amass wealth, and devoutly praying that he might prove more= =20 worthy of the talisman than those who had before held it, I once again made= =20 my way to France, for there, too, I had most important work to do in=20 forwarding the great cause. Superior in other respects to all the men of his time, the Emperor=20 Napoleon, so often favoured with what verily seemed to be a fated and=20 inevitable good fortune, was much prone to belief in auguries and tokens,=20 in predictions, and in the whole paraphernalia of the imperfect notions of= =20 fatality formed by the Nazarenes of an elder day, and still universally=20 held by the bloody and brutal brood of Mahomet, whose name be anathema! He held up to the admiration of the French people the phantom of military=20 glory; he played upon their imaginations by the splendours of his=20 intellectual despotism; he displayed the fire of genius and the cool=20 collected judgment of a statesman; and with him seems to repose the secret= =20 of governing the restless Gauls. Availing myself of this, I caused it to be made known, as if by accident;=20 that in the Bois de Boulogne, a man of red skin and horribly huge bulk and= =20 tall stature, dressed in the garb of the wandering children of the Arabian= =20 deserts, was at times met with by benighted travellers on that road; and=20 that to all whom he met he spake strange words of truth, both in narrating= =20 all that they had experienced, and predicting that which was about to come= =20 to pass. The curiosity of the Emperor was excited, and, leaving his capital=20 privately and by night, he repaired to the part of the wood which had been= =20 indicated to him, armed, indeed to the teeth, for he was sagacious as the=20 hill fox, but unattended, for he was brave as the Nem=91an lion. That was a fatal interview for him. I found him of this world, worldly;=20 crafty, bold, a lover to intensity of his own nation, a still more intense= =20 lover of his own power. and his own fame; all this was well; but so far=20 from deeming the despised and long suffering Jews worthy to build their=20 holy temple and re-establish their antique kingdom, that he, the Nazarene=20 by birth, the infidel by election and in belief, he, HE! panted to possess= =20 and to colonise our Palestine! I discerned that and he was doomed. From=20 that hour he was as virtually lost as was Belshazzar, the King of Chaldea,= =20 when the mystic writing gleamed forth, from the walls of the house of=20 wassail and of revelry. I poured forth into his astonished ear the most secret thoughts of his past= =20 life; I ministered to his pride, his ambition, his own impious confidence=20 in his own power, and trust in his own fortune. I became his nightly=20 visitant and his nightly counsellor. The result of my counsels was the=20 march of four hundred thousand of the very flower of the French to attack=20 the Scythian barbarians. Borodino was won; Moscow taken by the Gaul and=20 burned by the patriotism or passion of Rostopschin; the retreat commenced,= =20 and God is great! fatigue, famine, and winter, the winter of the North! did= =20 all the rest of the business. Napoleon had accomplished his destiny.=20 Rothschild was right speedily to make that ruin utter and inevitable not to= =20 be repaired. Though the ruin of Napoleon was decided, and inevitable from the very=20 moment of his determining upon his mad, and thrice madly-timed expedition=20 to Russia, it was by no means expected, or even deemed possible by his=20 supporters, i.e., by nine of every ten of the adult men of France. His=20 marvellous escape amid the hellish fire at the bridge of Lodi; his still=20 more marvellous escape from Egypt, when he sailed through a fog which=20 seemed as if made on purpose to hide him from his fierce and eager foemen=20 of England; these and a thousand other seemingly fated occurrences of good= =20 fortune, and, to set aside all the REAL benefits which he conferred upon=20 France, a tithe of which might have upheld the throne of even that honest=20 bigot, Charles X. his bombastic but felicitous eloquence, and the=20 consummate tact with which he contrived to confirm the French in the notion= =20 which they were only too ready to indulge that every Frenchman was a=20 partner in the glory of Napoleon made that most adroit as well as profound= =20 man the very Mohomet of France. The followers of the fierce and politic=20 impostor of Araby did not more implicitly and entirely believe in the=20 validity and sanctity of that impostor's pretensions than did the mass of=20 the French people in the certainty, the FATED inevitability, of Napoleon's= =20 ultimate success. And, accordingly, the indescribable horrors and waste of= =20 blood and treasure at Moscow did not deprive him of their affections; nay,= =20 even the treaty of Fontainebleau, which consigned the Emperor to the petty= =20 island of Elba, and restored the incapable and gourmand Bourbon to the=20 throne of France, could not abate one jot of heart or hope in the true=20 Buonapartists of France. "He'll return with the violet," was the phrase;=20 and the phrase gave vigour to old men, and increased hope and anticipative= =20 exultation to the young men. He came, and the throne of France bid fair to be his until his death; by=20 whom was his hope blasted? By the talents of Blucher and Wellington? By the= =20 boasted discipline of the Prussians? By the sheer, brute, dogged,=20 unyielding bull-dogism of the soldiery of England? By the treachery of=20 Grouchy (to whom the Aid-de-Camp never delivered the Emperor's order?) By=20 the genius of the allied generals? By the strength of the allied troops?=20 Not to any one or the other of these did the first warrior and statesman of= =20 modern times owe his ruin: but simply Nathan Meyer Rothschild armed with=20 the talisman! The British minister was driven almost to distraction for money; the first= =20 houses in London refused to aid him with a shilling. They were doubtful of= =20 the success of the allied powers; and the very doubt was within a little of= =20 being, like many other auguries, the cause of its own completion, and its=20 own justification. Without money from England, not a small portion of the=20 troops which fought upon the blood-stained plains of Waterloo would have=20 been unable to reach that scene of strife and carnage, in time to take part= =20 in the sanguinary business of the three days. This would have been=20 something in favour of the Emperor. But even this was the smallest part of= =20 what England's want of money would have achieved in favour of "Le Petit=20 Corporale;" but for the English minister obtaining gold, THE Generals and=20 the Senators of France would have gone Unbribed: THEY WERE bribed, (to the= =20 honour of the frequently shallow and flash, but always honest, Benjamin=20 Constant, I must admit that he, and he alone, of all the Chamber of=20 Deputies, refused and scorned the proffered gold); and Napoleon fell a=20 victim to their cupidity. Where did the English minister obtain the means=20 of bribing the constituted authorities of France, and of thus destroying a= =20 man, who, but for that bribery, would, to all human seeming, have beaten=20 the armed hosts of his crowned foemen? There was but one man on earth who=20 both COULD and would provide the millions of golden pounds, required for=20 the instant purposes of the English minister. That man was ROTHSCHILD. By=20 my instructions he let the Minister have the hard gold; he had my=20 instructions at the same time to do so, only on one condition. Alas! that=20 he should suppose that a half obedience would satisfy me! As if the=20 wanderer of Jerusalem could know any medium; as if anything could satisfy=20 ME but the full and zealous performance of the Jew's part in the=20 re-establishment of Judah's kingdom the rebuilding of thy Towers, oh,=20 Jerusalem! That most elaborate of bad jokes, history, will, no doubt, say that the jew= =20 Rothschild lent the Nazarene elder called Lord Liverpool, the sum necessary= =20 to crush Napoleon Buonaparte, in consideration of some such Judean motive=20 as twenty-five per cent. interest. The writers of history, in that case,=20 will, as usual, lie; the readers of it will, as is also usual, be very=20 egregiously and very deservedly deceived. Rothschild was commanded to lend= =20 the money on terms very different indeed from exorbitant interest.=20 Nazarenes! those terms were said is a few words! The restoration of Judea=20 to our ancient race; the guarantee of England for the independence of the=20 kingdom of Judea. Ruin stared the English minister in the face if he=20 refused! but he hesitated; Rothschild knew that the minister had already=20 been refused by Barings, Reid and Irving, and all the other chief=20 capitalists, and, therefore, with an expressive sneer advised him to try=20 them. The sneer struck home and the minister went to the council. In twelve= =20 hours the millions were in the possession of the minister, and a secret=20 agreement, guaranteed by the sign manual of royalty, was in the possession= =20 of Rothschild, for the restoration of Judea in twenty-one years from the=20 day on which Napoleon should be finally driven from France. This very year= =20 my task should have been completed; would have been completed; but he,=20 Rothschild, who for six-and-twenty years had proved himself even as one of= =20 the elders in Israel for wisdom and faithfulness, he, he, at the twelfth=20 hour, proved false, deferred my hope yet once more, and compelled me, all=20 reluctant as I was, to consign him to inevitable ruin of fortune, or to=20 instant exile and speedy death. Though he originally obeyed my behest au=20 pied de la lettre, his long round of success (unchecked save once when I=20 reproved his presumption with the loss of a hundred thousand pounds in a=20 single day's business in Spanish Stock, and then restored his lost talisman= =20 in such wise as to lead him to suppose he had merely mislaid it), and his=20 profound ignorance of my having the power of, at any instant, recalling the= =20 talisman, made him more and more purse proud-more and more utterly and=20 incurably devoted to the art of deluding the Nazarenes, not as a means to a= =20 high and hallowed end, but as a source of fortune and power to himself,=20 that it was rather with grief than surprise that I recently heard from his= =20 own lips that he had basely sold the agreement for the restoration of Judea= =20 for the promise of a petty English Emancipation Bill for our people, and a= =20 petty English peerage for himself. This delectable job, this high-minded=20 bargain, was to be completed in the ensuing years by which time the=20 purse-proud, haughty renegade reckoned upon being worth =A35,ooo,ooo of=20 money. He was already worth above four; his talisman disappeared, and I=20 took care he should know that it had disappeared for ever. He never ventured upon the Exchange again, or the scribe who wrote his will= =20 should hate been saved much trouble and time. Did I give him the talisman, to enable him like Sampson Gideon to intrude=20 his family and found a Peerage among the Normans? or to stifle his=20 conscience with the weight of riches? or to flatter it with ostentatious=20 charities? No Israelite can put his hand to the plough of this great work,= =20 look back and live! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20 . . . . . . . . . . . He returned to Germany and was stricken with disease at Frankfort, his=20 recovery precluded, by his dread lest my resentment should involve his=20 remaining property. He died within the walls of that very city which had=20 witnessed his dawning fortunes. For have I not in a nightdream seen Elias? and have I not been commanded to= =20 make a new talisman and to bear it to one shown to me and named to me by=20 Elias? and has not this instrument, thus immediately appointed by heaven=20 already made essay of the power of the talisman, and should not the vast=20 fortune of Rothschild have swelled the already numerous triumphs of=20 Israel's new and heaven appointed champion? Yea, verily. Accursed Nazarenes! The issue is now no longer uncertain; even as the stars= =20 in their course fought against Sisera, even so henceforth, even until the=20 restoration of Palestine, shall the course of seemingly human events fight= =20 against and weaken all Nazarene nations, and greatly strengthen and=20 aggrandize my people. In the luxurious and inviting east, in the barbarous= =20 and revolting north ; among the degenerate dwellers in Italy; among the=20 senseless bigotry of Spain and Portugal ; in every land and among every=20 people the Jewish cause shall be unconsciously but potently forwarded; the= =20 cause of the Nazarene as unconsciously but as potently beaten backward.=20 Selah, Selah, let it be; Jehovah! THOU hast said it SHALL be. FINIS. ---------------------------------=20 From dhyana@web.de Mon Jul 08 02:30:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 09:30:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 90885 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 09:30:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 09:30:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 09:30:28 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g689UPG01744 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:30:25 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-179.blinx.de [62.96.222.179]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g689UNc01713 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:30:23 +0200 Message-ID: <00c601c22662$1ce02fa0$f9de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020629211555.70643.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> <004f01c225ad$d49b1b60$b1de603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World The Haavara incident Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:46:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.179 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Yesterday, July 7th, Germans biggest tv station ARD showed new research from a Russian music historian. He is an expert of the the political songs of the USSR Communists under Lenin and Stalin. Once he saw film scences from Nazi Germany and to his big surprise the Nazis sang songs whose melodies were very familiar to him! He later on did find out that both the Nazis and the Bolshevists have plagiarized their songs from each other, having the same melody but with changes in the text. So he requested his University for a research project and went to Germany to dig in the archives. To his big surprise he did find out much common sense between both lines, which seem on an outer level to be antagonistic powers. But if one starts with the axiom that both extreme systems (the Nazis and the Communists) have its origin in ONE SOURCE one is not much surprised at all. That just reminds me on Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi secretary for propaganda. Even his enemies confirmed that he was an propagada expert. What many do not consider is that he has had his training in Moscow and was a firm Communist and it was only in the last years before Hitler was installed (I do not say he came to power, I say he was installed by background powers) that Goebbels switched his direction and became a firm Nazi. Frank From dhyana@web.de Mon Jul 08 02:30:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Jul 2002 09:30:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 49621 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2002 09:30:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2002 09:30:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2002 09:30:57 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g689Usu01891 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:30:54 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-179.blinx.de [62.96.222.179]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g689Ugc01866 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:30:42 +0200 Message-ID: <00c901c22662$28135000$f9de603e@captaink> To: Subject: The Best Enemies Money Can Buy Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:29:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.179 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Best Enemies Money Can Buy >From Hitler To Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden - Insider Connections and the Bush Family's Partnership with Killers of Americans Brown Brothers, Harriman - BNL- and the Carlyle Group By Michael C. Ruppert [=A9 Copyright 2001. All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, = =20 www.copvcia.com. May be reprinted or distributed for non-profit purposes only.] FTW, Oct. 9, 2001 - Since the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, major = =20 media powerhouses and the increasingly influential alternative media alike have begun to focus attention on Bush family connections and a long history of arming and financing America's=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 attackers in the months and years prior to the outbreak=20=20=20=20 of war. Recent stories in the Wall Street Journal (Sept. 27 & 28, 2001), ABC News (Oct. 1, 2001), as well as a host of reports from so-called alternative news sources have begun to focus attention on the Bush family's profit-making = =20 role in creating and arming our enemies. The following is a more comprehensive look at the documented history of these relationships that will=20=20=20=20 also open some new avenues of inquiry for the press, Congress and the American people. In a world now filled with biowarfare agents, = =20 backpack nuclear devices, and chemical weapons like Sarin=20=20 gas-where there are people in many countries with reasons to oppose the United States=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 -- the Bush Administration is following predictable strategies in a way that redefines the concept of brinksmanship. Human survival may depend upon the will and the ability of both the Congress and the press to focus on these relationships = =20 and to take appropriate action. Moreover - and I am not=20=20=20=20 the first to say this - if a national security priority is to seize the financial assets of those who support terrorists, then perhaps we should start right here at home. Adolph Hitler Meticulous research, including U.S. government = =20 records from the era, along with contemporaneous news stories from the New York Times and other papers is presented in the 1992 book entitled, "George Bush, The Unauthorized Biography" by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, Published by The Executive Intelligence Review and located at http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm. The following is sourced entirely from Chapter II of this=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 essential work. [Note: Although FTW does not always agree=20=20 with conclusions reached by the Executive Intelligence Review, or its founder Lyndon La Rouche, we have never found a single flaw in any of their factual research. History is history, = =20 no matter who presents it. And this history is essential=20=20=20 to understanding our era.] George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, was the Managing Director of the investment bank Brown = =20 Brothers, Harriman from the 1920s through the 1940s. It=20=20 was Brown Brothers, in conjunction with Averell Harriman, the Rockefeller family, Standard Oil, the DuPonts, the Morgans and the Fords who served as the principal funding arm in helping to finance Adolph Hitler's rise to power starting = =20 in 1923. This included direct funding for the SS and SA=20=20=20 channeled through a variety of German firms. Prescott Bush, through associations with the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line, Nazi banker Fritz Thyssen (pronounced Tee-sen), Standard Oil of Germany, The German Steel Trust (founded by Dillon=20=20=20=20=20=20 Read founder, Clarence Dillon), and I.G. Farben, used the Union Bank Corporation to funnel vast quantities of money to the Nazis and to manage their American interests. The profits from those investments came back to Bush allies on Wall Street. Thyssen is universally regarded as having = =20 been Hitler's private banker and ultimate owner of the Union Bank Corporation. Early support for Hitler came from Prescott Bush through the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line-also=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 funded by Brown Bothers-that funneled large sums of money and weapons to Hitler's storm troopers in the 1920s. According to Tarpley and Chaitkin, "In May 1933, just after the Hitler regime was consolidated, = =20 an agreement was reached in Berlin for the coordination=20=20=20=20 of all Nazi commerce with the U.S.A. The Harriman International Company. was to head a syndicate of 150 firms and individuals, to conduct all exports from Hitler Germany to the United=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 States." Furthermore, a 1942 U.S. government investigative = =20 report that surfaced during 1945 Senate hearings found that the Union Bank, with Prescott Bush on the board, was an "interlocking concern" with the German Steel Trust that had produced: - 50.8% of Nazi Germany's pig iron - 41.4% of Nazi Germany's universal plate - 36% of Nazi Germany's heavy plate - 38.5% of Nazi Germany's galvanized sheet - 45.5% of Nazi Germany's pipes and tubes - 22.1% of Nazi Germany's wire - 35% of Nazi Germany's explosives The business relationships established by Bush in 1923 continued even after the war started until = =20 they became so offensive and overt as to warrant seizure=20 by the U.S. government under the Trading with the Enemy Act in 1942. In 1942, "Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over Union Banking Corporation,=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares. ". all of which shares are held for the benefit of. members of the Thyssen family, [and] is=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 property of nationals. of a designated enemy country." "On October 28, the government issued orders seizing two Nazi front organizations run by the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation." "Nazi interests in the Silesian-American=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Corporation, long managed by Prescott Bush and his father=20=20 in law George Herbert Walker, were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act on Nov. 17, 1942." These seizures of Bush businesses were reported in a number of American papers including The New York Times and The Wall Street = =20 Journal. Prescott Bush went on to become an influential = =20 Republican Senator from Connecticut who went on to be a=20=20=20=20 regular golfing partner of President Dwight Eisenhower. His attorneys were the lawyers John Foster and Allen Dulles, the later became the CIA Director under Eisenhower. Saddam Hussein After becoming President in January 1989,=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Prescott Bush's son, George Herbert Walker Bush - father=20=20=20 of our current President - authorized a series of programs that not only armed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein but also provided him with technology that assisted in his development of chemical weapons like Sarin gas, and biological weapons,=20=20=20 which he still possesses. Apologists for Bush (the elder) say that, after the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s left the region unstable, he was just trying to establish a new balance of power. Not so. Bush directives and policies, including=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 relationships with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), and the Banca Nacional del Lavoro (BNL) were directly and deliberately responsible for creating the army the U.S.=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 fought in 1991. A story by Russ W. Baker, in the March/April = =20 issue the Colombia Journalism Review (CJR),=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 provided the most compelling overview of Iraqgate that I=20=20=20 have seen. "ABC News Nightline opened last June 9 with words to make the heart stop ,It is becoming increasingly=20=20 clear,' said a grave Ted Koppel, ,that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military = =20 help that built Saddam's Iraq into the aggressive power=20=20=20 that the United States ultimately had to destroy. "Why, then, have some of our top papers provided so little coverage?" Baker poignantly asks. " The result: readers who neither grasp nor care about the facts behind facile imagery like The Butcher of Baghdad and Operation Desert Storm. In particular, readers who do not follow the story of the Banca Nacional del Lavoro, which apparently served as a paymaster for Saddam's = =20 arms buildup, and thus became a player in the largest bank-fraud case in U.S. history. "Complex, challenging, mind-boggling stories (from Iran-Contra to the S&L crisis to BCCI) = =20 increasingly define our times: yet we don't appear to be=20=20=20 getting any better at telling them. "Much of what Saddam received from the West was not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology-ultra sophisticated comp= uters, armored ambulances,=20 helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications. We've learned that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and abroad, eagerly=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 fed the Iraqi war machine right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait. "And we've learned that the obscure Atlanta Branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nacional del = =20 Lavoro, relying partly on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. Some government-backed loans were supposed to be for agricultural purposes, but were used to facilitate the purchase of stronger stuff than = =20 wheat. Federal Reserve and Agriculture department memos=20=20=20=20 warned of suspected abuses by Iraq, which apparently took advantage of the loans to free up funds for munitions. U.S. taxpayers have been left holding the bag for what looks like $2 billion in defaulted loans to Iraq. ". In fact, we now know that in February 1990, then Attorney General Dick Thornburgh [appointed by=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 George H.W. Bush] blocked U.S. investigators from traveling to Rome and Istanbul to pursue the case. ". As New York Times columnist William Safire argued last December 7, ,Iraqgate is uniquely horrendous:=20=20 a scandal about the Systematic abuse of power by misguided leaders of three democratic nations [The U.S., Britain, and Italy] to secretly finance the arms buildup of a dictator." While Democrat Henry Gonzales, Chairman of the House Banking Committee during the period, stood = =20 as the lone voice from the wilderness in raising alarms=20=20=20=20 about Bush's obvious corruption, the rest of the Congress sheepishly ignored all the signs demanding immediate action. Gonzales' voice reportedly fell silent after his empty car was machine-gunned in a Washington suburb in what passed=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 for a drive-by shooting. The CJR continues: "Meanwhile, The Village Voice published a major investigation by free-lancer Murray Waas in its December 18, 1990 issue. "That American troops could be killed or maimed because of a covert decision to arm Iraq,' Waas wrote, "is the most serious consequence of a U.S. foreign policy formulated and executed in secret,=20=20=20=20=20 without the advice and consent of the American public." The L.A. Times, on Feb 23, 1992, dug deep enough to find secret National Security Decision Directives=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 by the Bush Administration in 1989 ordering closer ties with Baghdad and paving the way for $1 billion in new aid. The Times' series, co-authored with Waas, emphasized that, "buried deep in a 1991 Washington Press piece - that Secretary of State James Baker, after meeting with Iraqi foreign minister Tariq Aziz in October 1989, intervened = =20 personally to support U.S. government loans guarantees to=20=20 Iraq." Baker's CJR report also noted, "On October 3, the [Wall Street] Journal reported [BNL official Christopher] Drogoul's assertion that the director general of Iraq's Ministry of Industry = =20 and Military Production had told him, ,We are all in this=20=20 together. The intelligence service of the U.S. government works very closely with the intelligence service of the Iraqi government.' Three weeks later, the Journal reported that [Henry] Gonzales ,produced a phone-book-sized packet=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 of documents' showing the involvement of U.S. exporting firms. The documents mentioned one. which designed parts for Iraq's howitzers and was financed through BNL." In the wake of highly suspicious anthrax=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 outbreaks in Florida, just miles from where several of the=20 WTC suicides pilots trained, we add one final note. In his 1998 book "Bringing the War Home" author William Thomas writes, " Under that same [weapons transfer] program, 19 containers of Anthrax bacteria were supplied to Iraq in 1988 by the American Type Culture Collection company, located near Fort Detrick, MD, the site of the = =20 US Army's high security germ warfare labs." The Carlyle Group, the Bushes and bin Laden The warnings about the Carlyle Group, the=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 nation's 11th largest defense contractor, and the Bushes=20=20=20 came long before the World Trade Center attacks. The Carlyle Group is a closely held corporation, exempt, for that reason, from reporting its affairs to the Securities and Exchange=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Commission. Little is known of what it actually does except that it buys and sells defense contractors. As of October 4, 2001, it has removed its corporate web site from the World Wide Web making further investigation through that channel impossible. Its Directors include Frank Carlucci, former Reagan Secretary of Defense; James Baker, former = =20 Bush Secretary of State; and Richard Darman, a former White House aide to Ronald Reagan and Republican Party operative. On March 3, 2001, just weeks after George W Bush's inauguration, the conservative Washington lobbying=20=20 group Judicial Watch issued a press release. It said: "(Washington, D.C.) Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that investigates and prosecutes = =20 government abuse and corruption, called on former President George Herbert Walker Bush to resign immediately from the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm, while his son President George W. Bush is in office. Today's New York Times reported that the elder Bush is an "ambassador" = =20 for the $12 billion private investment firm and last year=20=20 traveled to the Middle East on its behalf. The former president also helped the firm in South Korea. "The New York Times reported that as compensation, the elder Bush is allowed to buy a stake=20=20=20=20=20 in the Carlyle Group's investments, which include ownership in at least 164 companies throughout the world (thereby by giving the current president an indirect benefit). James Baker, the former Secretary of State who served as President = =20 George W. Bush's point man in Florida's election dispute,=20 is a partner in the firm. The firm also gave George W. Bush help in the early 1990's when it placed him on one of its subsidiary's board of directors. "This is simply inappropriate. Former President Bush should immediately resign from the Carlyle = =20 Group because it is an obvious conflict of interest. Any=20=20=20 foreign government or foreign investor trying to curry favor with the current Bush Administration is sure to throw business to the Carlyle Group. And with the former President Bush promoting the firm's investments abroad, foreign nationals = =20 could understandably confuse the Carlyle Group's interests=20 with the interests of the United States government," stated Larry Klayman, Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel. "Questions are now bound to be raised if the recent Bush Administration change in policy towards=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Iraq has the fingerprints of the Carlyle Group, which is trying to gain investments from other Arab countries who [sic] would presumably benefit from the new policy," stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton." Judicial Watch noted that "even the Clinton Administration called on the Rodham brothers to = =20 stop their business dealings in [The former Soviet Republic of] Georgia because those dealings started to destabilize that country." Since the WTC attacks the Wall Street Journal = =20 has reported (Sept. 28, 2001) that, "George H.W. Bush,=20=20=20=20=20 the father of President Bush, works for the bin Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm." The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden family at least twice in the last three years=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 - 1998 and 2000 -- as a representative of Carlyle, seeking to expand business dealings with one of the wealthiest Saudi families, which some experts argue, has never fully severed its ties with black sheep Osama in spite of current reports = =20 in a mainstream press that is afraid of offending the current administration. The Nation, on March 27, 2000 - in a story=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 co-authored by David Corn and Paul Lashmar - wrote, "In=20=20=20=20 January former President George Bush and former British Prime Minister John Major paid a social call on Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah." This story confirms at least one meeting between the elder Bush and Saudi leaders, including the bin Ladens. That the bin Ladens attended this meeting=20=20=20=20=20=20 was confirmed in a subsequent September 27, 2001 Wall Street Journal (WSJ) story. The January 2000 meeting with the bin Ladens was also later confirmed by Bush (the elder's) Chief of Staff Jean Becker, only after the WSJ presented her with = =20 a thank you note sent by Bush to the bin Ladens after that meeting. James Baker visited the bin Ladens in 1998 and 1999 with Carlyle CEO Frank Carlucci. The WSJ story went on to note, "A Carlyle executive said that the bin Laden family committed = =20 $2 million through a London investment arm in 1995 in Carlyle Partners II Fund, which raised $1.3 billion overall. The fund has purchased several aerospace companies among 29 deals. So far, the family has received $1.3 million back in completed investments and should ultimately realize a=20=20=20=20=20=20 40% annualized rate of return, the Carlyle executive said. "But a foreign financier with ties to the bin Laden family says the family's overall investment = =20 with Carlyle is considerably larger." In other words, Osama bin Laden's attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, with the resulting massive increase=20=20=20=20=20=20 in the U.S. defense budget have just made his family a great big pile of money. More Bush connections appear in relation to the bin Ladens. The WSJ story also notes that, "During = =20 the past several years, the [bin Laden] family's close ties to the Saudi royal family prompted executives and staff from closely held New York publisher Forbes, Inc. to make two trips to the family headquarters, according to Forbes=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Chairman Caspar Weinberger, a former U.S. Secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration. ,We would call on them to get their view of the country and what would be of interest to investors.'" President G.H.W. Bush pardoned Weinberger for his criminal conduct in the Iran-Contra scandal in 1989. Our current President, George W. Bush has also had-at minimum-indirect dealings with Carlyle=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 and the bin Ladens. In 1976 his firm Arbusto Energy was=20 funded with $50,000 from Texas investment banker James R. Bath who was also the U.S. investment counselor for the bin Laden family. In his watershed 1992 book, "The Mafia, The CIA and George Bush," award winning Texas investigative journalist Pete Brewton dug deeply into Bath's = =20 background, revealing connections with the CIA and major=20=20=20 fraudulent activities connected with the Savings & Loan scandal that took $500 billion out of the pockets of American taxpayers. A long-time friend of George W. Bush, Bath was connected to a number of covert financing operations in the Iran-Contra scandal, which also linked to bin Laden=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 friend Adnan Khashoggi. One of the richest men in the world, Khashoggi was the arms merchant at the center of the whole Iran-Contra scandal. Khashoggi, whose connections to the bin Ladens is more than superficial, got his first business = =20 break by acting as middle-man for a large truck purchase=20=20=20 by Osama bin Laden's older brother, Salem. Another key player in the Bush Administration, = =20 Deputy Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage, left his post as an Assistant Secretary of Defense in the Reagan Administration after a series of scandals connected to CIA operatives Ed Wilson, Ted Shackley, Richard Secord and Tom Clines placed = =20 him at the brink of criminal indictment and jail. Shackley=20 and Secord are veterans of Vietnam operations and have long been linked to opium/heroin smuggling. The Armitage scandals all focused on the illegal provision of weapons and war materiel to potential or actual enemies of the U.S. and to the Contras in Central America. Armitage, a former Navy SEAL, who reportedly = =20 enjoyed combat missions and killing during covert operations in Laos during the Vietnam War, has never been far from the Bush family's side. Throughout his career, both in and out of government, he has been perpetually connected to = =20 CIA drug smuggling operations. Secretary of State Colin=20=20=20=20 Powell, in a 1995 Washington Post story, called Armitage, "my white son." In 1990, then President Bush dispatched Armitage to Russia to aid in its "transition" to capitalism. Armitage's Russian work for Bush has been=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 frequently connected to the explosion of drug trafficking=20=20 under the Russian Mafias, which became virtual rulers of the nation afterwards. In the early 1990s Armitage had extensive involvement in Albania at the same time that the Albanian ally, Kosovo Liberation Army was coming to power and consolidating its grip, according to The Christian Science Monitor, on 70% of the heroin entering western Europe. [See FTW Vol. II, No 2 - April 24, 1999] Armitage and Carlucci are both Board Members of the influential Washington think tank, the Middle East=20=20=20=20=20 Policy Council. The connections continue with Vice President = =20 Dick Cheney. Amongst the multitude of oil pipeline construction running through the new war zone is one project - according to a Sept. 19, 2001 Wall Street Journal story - a joint venture in which the bin Laden family joined with the construction = =20 firm H.C. Price. A researcher named "Phoenix," = =20 writing for the Internet news site Rumor Mills News Agency=20 located at www.rumormillnews.com,=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 reported that Price subsequently changed its name to Bredero Shaw, Inc. and is now owned by a subsidiary of the Halliburton Corporation, Dresser Industries. It was Dresser industries = =20 that gave George H.W. Bush his first post war job in 1948.=20 A check of the relevant corporate web sites has confirmed this. Vice President Dick Cheney, who served as Secretary of Defense during Desert Storm, directing the=20=20=20=20 campaign against Saddam Hussein, was Halliburton's CEO until last year's election. And, according to a 2000 story from Harper's = =20 Magazine, in 1990 our current President, through a position as a corporate director of Caterair, owned by the Carlyle Group - at a time when the bin Laden's were invested in Carlyle - had additional connections to the bin Laden family. = =20 In addition, on March 1, 1995, when George W. Bush was Texas governor and a senior Trustee of the university, the University of Texas Endowment voted to place $10 million in investments with the Carlyle Group. As to how much of that money went to the bin Ladens we can only guess. But we do know that there is a long tradition=20=20 in the Bush family of giving money to those who kill Americans. Now, as the people of America are beginning to awaken to what is really being unleashed upon them, as=20=20=20=20=20 a few brave souls are asking who's going to get all the money the Bush Administration is "borrowing" from government coffers and who's going to pay for it - the above history is more than ominous. Considering that during the 1980s, under the pretext of fighting a Sandinista regime in Nicaragua=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 that never once launched an attack on the U.S., these same people oversaw an explosion in U.S. cocaine consumption that went from 80 metric tons in 1979 to 600 metric tons in 1989 - considering that the CIA trained and equipped death squads that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands = =20 of people from Guatemala to Panama - considering that these same people have brutalized Iraq, leaving portions of it radioactively contaminated by depleted uranium for the next 4 billion years and causing a fivefold increase in the number of childhood leukemia cases amidst a starving population,=20=20=20=20=20 one can only wonder what they will produce for the world now given the context of the World Trade Center attacks. 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