From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 01 02:57:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 55781 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:22 -0000 Received: from modem-390.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.145.134] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aCht-000107-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:57:22 +0100 Message-ID: <004501c23942$3cdc71e0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:37:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Hello Dallas, > It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead > exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew. This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was "entirely ready", and Mead's lack of reference to it. > As a corollary: why not consider that all those who work > strenuously for THEOSOPHY are so changing there own personal > natures so as to attune themselves, gradually to such a > condition.? This is precisely the point I tried to make elsewhere, apparently without success, the corollary of which would be the eventual changing of the whole of humanity over a long time span. The changing of the individual's personal nature being the aim of Theosophical teaching. But unless that is done first, the rest cannot happen. Orra Best, Ian From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 01 02:57:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 31830 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from modem-390.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.145.134] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aChu-000107-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <004601c23942$3d9cb4a0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Ariadne's thread and a particular KEY concerning SD Vol. III Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:44:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Dallas wrote: > I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them > (the first 2 volumes), I recall reading somewhere that Albert Einstein kept a copy of The Secret Doctrine on his desk, and read from it every day. Doubtless this stimulated his mind to think along certain lines, and make certain discoveries. There is, after all, no such thing as the "supernatural", only aspects of the natural that science has not yet examined. Orra Best, Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 04:56:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 11:56:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 30606 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from pool0073.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.73] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEZJ-0005xY-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 04:56:37 -0700 To: Subject: RE: S D III -- Dallas' Latest Reply (July 31 2002) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 04:54:08 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 August 1 2002 Re S D Vol III -- two letters to you yesterday July 31 2002. Dear Dan: I believe I have said all that is necessary. My views are the result of study over a long period. I made the comparison many years ago, and do not have my notes at hand any more. Consequently you are free to call them my opinions if you wish, and also say therefore, that they have no value. My study is of the practice of Theosophy as my letter yesterday emphasizes. Are you interested in that also? Similarly in regard to the statement I made concerning the disposal of the MSS of the 3rd and 4th Volumes of The SECRET DOCTRINE shortly before her death by H P B -- that is a reminiscence, a memory of what someone told me -- consequently, I set it forth as I did before -- as a report I received many years ago -- and, as I said I had no "proofs" at all beyond that. Best wishes, Dallas ----------------------==========-------------------- PS I see I made an error in dating the following letter to you PLEASE CORRECT: --------------- July 12 2002 [ Should be July 31 2002 ] [THIS SHOULD BE JULY 31, 2002 -- DTB Aug 1 2002 -- My left hand still inaccurate some times. Also, I sent it without rereading it, and missed this error.] Many thanks for your good comments Daniel. I can see some difficulties from the point of view of exact physical securing of proofs. I have no more access to any "primary" documents that I know of, or that you do not already seem to have yourself. I do a lot of thinking on the nature of certain "reticence " that H PB and others in those days exercised. Trying to fill in the blanks at this stage and over 100 years after the events is not easy at all. Of course there will be guess work and surmise. The only appeal can be to reason and to continuity of a train of thought. I sympathise with some aspects of those. My methods would not be accepted by "scholars" of today and their pre-set criteria. But I am not very concerned with that. Their perception of "gaps" cannot be reconciled if there are no physical documents -- true. Here is a for instance: By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.. Best wishes, Dallas. ------------------ I ALSO SENT YOU THE FOLLOWING ----------------- July 31 2002 Re: SECRET DOCTRINE the THIRD VOLUME Dear Daniel: Well, I don't recall your asking me about this. And I do appreciate your putting these statements down in sequence. For a historian they are most interesting. They show how the plans for The SECRET DOCTRINE were changed as time and need altered.. If the 3rd Volume was to contain the " history of certain great adepts," then, as published it can, in my esteem, hardly qualify to do that. I find far more sketched in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, under various names, and imagine that H P B could have expanded that information. But that is only a speculation of mine. Scattered through the pages of ISIS UNVEILED, The SECRET DOCTRINE and her articles we can catch glimpses of certain great personages, historical and pre-historical -- and even, we might attempt to string those together. But that does not seem to be what H P B did, or intended, does it ? I assume that in presenting The SECRET DOCTRINE (the 2 volumes published in 1888) she was following the scheme that the Masters finally laid out : Cosmogenesis, and then Anthropogenesis. I would also say in my observation, she expressed her modesty -- and, she called it a theory or a hypothesis relating to the generation of the Universe, our Solar System and Earth. She did this, saying that it (the Theosophical statement -- which she claimed was condensed HISTORY taken from the pages of books and records in the libraries and repositories of the secret Lodges of the Adepts) had as much right to the public's consideration, as did the various scientific hypotheses and theories that existed at her time, and some of which survive into the present. The modern Scientific theories are based on a speculative study during the past 3 or 4 centuries of physical relicts and fragments of monuments that have survived organized attempts at their obliteration. One wonders why. The Theosophical statements are based on a study over thousands of years by the Adepts and their pupils (see S D I 272-3). They have a far greater antiquity than those of our Science. She claimed the Theosophical scheme was entirely under Law (Karma). It was based on the immutability of the one spiritual principle which is everywhere. It therefore related to the reincarnation of worlds. Thereafter, under the same law, whereby the "spiritual" always stands as the "progenitor" of the material, our own humanity was produced -- reincarnated from its earlier evolutionary vehicle on to our Earth. Here it proceeds under the same immutable evolutionary laws that take into account three factors, broadly stated on p. 181 of SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I: 1. the Spiritual, 2. the Intellectual, and, 3. the physical. I also assume that the 3rd Volume was held back, destroyed, reconfigured, etc.... for some good reason known to the Masters and to H P B. But, I am unable to say more. I do not know why. I observe again (concerning this 3rd Volume of the S D) : she did not edit it, nor did she prepare it for final publication. I would therefore say it is guess-work for anyone to say what it would have been like. The materials may have been collected, in part, read by some, reported on, but we will never know if they are complete, or only partial, or only stray MSS available and possibly rejected by H P B earlier, for some reasons she alone knew.. Annie Besant took responsibility for producing the book (that she named the 3rd volume of The SECRET DOCTRINE) and to her we have to look for a final word -- but, again, she is no longer with us. Her Introduction says what she desired to place before us. Annie Besant released this book in 1997 (6 years after the death of H P B's body) and assumed full responsibility for it. I have compared the contents with what H P B says will be issued, as described in her first 2 volumes, to me, they are different. The "Wurzburg MSS" (copied by Countess Wachmeister, and sent to Adyar for Subba Row to review, comment on and edit) shows differences from the book as finally published (S D Vols. I & II). I believe that H P B says somewhere that the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected. In any case, with me, I do not know enough to speculate. I have the S D Vols I & II and even after some 60, or more years of study, I cannot say I have in any way "mastered them." I also agree that it would be very useful to some to have the next 2 volumes, but apparently we will have to "wait a while." I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them (the first 2 volumes), and interestingly enough, as time passes in the past 114 years, a number of corroborative discoveries tend to show that the statements she made then, are, in part, verifications of the facts she wrote of, and, that further investigation is uncovering more, almost daily. In itself that is significant. As I look at Theosophy, there are aspects that lend dimensions of understanding to the discoveries and speculations of Science. [You may say this has no place in the present exchange, but, I think differently, so please bear with me.] It seems to me these might be: 1. the "astral light" (or plane of electro-magnetic forces that form the lattice work on which the physical atoms and molecules arrange themselves to make up material forms. 2. Further, the concept of Karma as a universal law of cause-effect-cause... universally and endlessly proceeding; 3. following that, the concept that there is for every being a "spiritual" something that remains constant, invariable, undying -- and is in fact the base for any concept on individuality. The 4th, is the concept of reincarnation -- that every "life" on Earth is like a day in School for the undying consciousness of every individual. 5th, there is a purpose -- a goal -- for evolution which can be partially expressed as "perfection." The material forms and minds meld eventually with the spiritual "everything." But in doing so, they do not lose their identity. This is what I "get" out of The SECRET DOCTRINE and it appeals to me from its logic and perceived operation. Science on the other hand does not seem to be able to extend its purview beyond this present life we are living in this body. Its cause for existence is unknown, its fate after death is equally unknown. The reason for living is unclear. The reason for variations in human character are searched for, but theories that relate brain to mind are also variable. The puzzle deepens instead of being relieved. Frankly I do not agree with your conclusion concerning the 3rd Volume. I see therein some of H P B's posthumously published articles ( from "Lucifer" and elsewhere), but I am also keenly aware that I am not equipped to provide you with the kind of proofs you seem to want. I think I have said as much as I can on this subject. I hope it is of help, even if it appears to be a statement in an area different from what you may have in mind. Best wishes, as always, Dallas --------------------------- Aug 1 2002 (continued) You asked me about changes made to The SECRET DOCTRINE MSS by H P B May I quote your recent posting -- this is exactly what I had in mind when thinking of the difference between the "Wurzburg MSS" and the final issue in 1888 of The SECRET DOCTRINE --------- You write In October, 1886, HPB in Ostende wrote to A. P. Sinnett in London: "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: 'Sinnett has evidently forgotten what he had read in the Comm. on the 7 Stanzas (Book II Archaic period). . . . ' ". . . . Well, D. Kh. said before parting company that I better write and tell you all; that there was a chance for me that either you, or Mr. Crookes would refuse to read over that which you had already read, and Mr. C. something that he is sure to find stupid, unless he reads the Comm. on Stanza VI with great attention. Well I am ready to do my duty. But I do hope Mr. Crookes will refuse." "It is true that ever since you left [Ostende in July], Master has made me add some thing daily to the old MSS. so that much of it is new and much more that I do not understand myself. So that with God's help you may find in it something to attract the attention of even such an eminent man as Mr. Crookes. . . . " Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-103.htm Notice at THIS POINT in time that the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan on Cosmogony and HPB's Commentaries thereon were in the manuscript of Book II or Volume II on the Archaic Period, as it was described. COMPARE this arrangement to what Bertram Keightley wrote about the arrangement of the volumes when he first read the SD manuscript in London in the summer of 1887. Daniel H. Caldwell -------- Dont you think this covers the question of continual changes being made ? Best wishes, D. -----Original Message----- From: danielhcaldwell [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:53 PM To: Blavatsky_Study@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Blavatsky_Study] Dallas' Latest Reply about SD III Dallas, Thanks for your comments which can be read at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7586 I will focus solely on your comments about SD III. I ask for clarification about the following. You write: "The 'Wurzburg MSS' (copied by Countess Wachmeister, and sent to Adyar for Subba Row to review, comment on and edit) shows differences from the book as finally published (S D Vols. I & II). I believe that H P B says somewhere that the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected." First of all, where does HPB say, in effect, that the "the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected"? I am very interested in finding this statement by HPB. Secondly, what are the major DIFFERENCES between the "Wurzburg MSS" and what was published in SD Vols. I and II. I would like to read your observations about these differences. Also what are your sources upon which you base these observations? I have a few more questions but will save them for a later posting. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/UlWolB/TM ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Blavatsky_Study-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 05:23:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 48876 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:47 -0000 Received: from pool0042.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.42] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEza-0002HU-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:23:46 -0700 To: "AA-BlavatskyStudy" Subject: RE: S D and Dr. Einstein Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <004601c23942$3d9cb4a0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 1 2002 Dear Ian: Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and gave their library the book he had used with all his notes in it. Best wishes, Dal ==================== -----Original Message----- From: Ian McRae [mailto:ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:44 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Ariadne's thread and a particular KEY concerning SD Vol. III Dallas wrote: > I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them > (the first 2 volumes), I recall reading somewhere that Albert Einstein kept a copy of The Secret Doctrine on his desk, and read from it every day. Doubtless this stimulated his mind to think along certain lines, and make certain discoveries. There is, after all, no such thing as the "supernatural", only aspects of the natural that science has not yet examined. Orra Best, Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 05:23:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 86974 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from pool0042.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.42] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEzd-0002HU-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:23:50 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theosophy and the Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:21:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <004501c23942$3cdc71e0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 1 2002 As I understand it: Theosophy demands that every human being (mind) change and alter itself. There is a wide gap between "ALL-KNOWINGNESS" and the ignorance of a child. It is the difference between wisdom (BUDDHI) and un-reason -- mainly uncontrolled desires and passions (Kama). Our ability to "look at ourselves" comes from the highest (the immortal Atma-Buddhi Monad) in us -- which is one with the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. Theosophy provides us with the theory, the doctrines, the disciplines that can be used in practice if we decide they are worthwhile. Nothing is forced on any one. It is both a history and a description of the progress of the Universe, and affords a glimpse into the future -- what any one of us may progress to, depending on how hard they try. But the child grows into the adult and then into old age, guided by the choices that it makes by using its understanding and its will. This process is in operation for all, right now. Most are unaware of it, but they can ascertain its presence with a little thought about their own life-progress. The differences in character and capacity we notice among us, from person to person, are due to our (and their) past lives, and the choices and training we have given ourselves then. That, and this present choosing, are Karma (the universal Law) in operation. It works generally for vast masses of humans and it also works individually on every thinking person. Further, Theosophy maintains it rules and guides every evolutionary process everywhere, and there is not any spot in the Universe that is without its purview. Best wishes, Dallas. ========================== -----Original Message----- From: Ian Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:37 AM To: Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Hello Dallas, > It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead > exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew. This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was "entirely ready", and Mead's lack of reference to it. > As a corollary: why not consider that all those who work > strenuously for THEOSOPHY are so changing there own personal > natures so as to attune themselves, gradually to such a > condition.? This is precisely the point I tried to make elsewhere, apparently without success, the corollary of which would be the eventual changing of the whole of humanity over a long time span. The changing of the individual's personal nature being the aim of Theosophical teaching. But unless that is done first, the rest cannot happen. Orra Best, Ian From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Aug 01 11:32:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 40450 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E402B480689 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003401c23989$12e697c0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:27:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Ian and all of you, It is important to keep a global focus, when we talk about these issues, Al= ice A. bailey, HPB and what Theosophy really is. Try this link to theos-talk message 4389: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 "H. P. Blavatsky versus Alice A. Bailey - Theosophy - and Wisdom Organisations and=20 Their Mode of Operation *** Written in private by Morten Sufilight" (A later and slightly revised version is here : http://home19.inet.tele.dk/= global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM). The above article is partly concerned with showing some of the problems wit= h the article made by Nicholas Weeks in "Theosophy's Shadow" at http://www.= blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm The conclusion is, that some of Bailey's books are givning to certain group= s of aspirants, but to others not. I tend to recommend, that the student and the aspirant read books with a gl= obal perspective in mind, HPB did also recommend this.=20 AAB seems to have forgotten this somewhat ! (Her and/or Dj. Kools books are= at least slightly pro-western and "almost" anti Middle-Eastern, -- well, -= if you get the view.) AAB's books holds the jews to be a karmic problem which the masters are sor= t of gravely concerned with. HPB says somewhere in The Secret Doctrine that the jews is an artificial ra= ce ! (What HPB's definition on the word 'jew' exactly covered is difficult = to grasp, unless the so-called '7 keys' are used.) from Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey > Ian, you wrote: >=20 > "Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice=20 > Bailey ? She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" I have often=20 > seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know what=20 > connection she had with the TS ?" >=20 > Ian, you might want to read and study the following four items: >=20 > (1) "Theosophy's Shadow" by Nicholas Weeks. A critical look at the=20 > claims and teachings of Alice A. Bailey. This article is a revised=20 > and expanded version of one that appeared in the Summer 1997 issue of=20 > Fohat, a Theosophical magazine published in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. > According to my understanding, Nicholas was once a very devoted=20 > student of Mrs. Bailey's teachings. But after coming into contact=20 > with HP Blavatsky's writings, Nicholas started finding differences=20 > and discrepancies between these writings. > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm >=20 > (2) "Alice Bailey" by Reba Parker and Timothy Oliver > http://www.watchman.org/profile/bailypro.htm >=20 > (3) "The Pseudo-occultism of Alice Bailey" by Alice Leighton Cleather=20 > and Basil Crump > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html >=20 > (4) "Alice Bailey Teachings Examined." High Country Theosophist,=20 > April 2001, pp. 1-14. > http://www.theosophy.net/hct/hct0104.pdf >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Aug 01 11:43:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 18:43:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 62400 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 18:43:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.166.11874661 (4330) for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <166.11874661.2a7adb5e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:43:42 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For the full story about Einstein and the SD, go to: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html LHM In a message dated 08/01/02 7:25:26 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Aug 1 2002 > >Dear Ian: > >Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET >DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. > >After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and >gave their library the book he had used with all his notes >in it. > >Best wishes, > >Dal From jpcondick@btinternet.com Thu Aug 01 13:59:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 36476 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from host213-1-104-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.104.200] helo=oemcomputer) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17aN2e-0003We-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:59:30 +0100 Message-ID: <003e01c2399e$941f7220$c86801d5@oemcomputer> To: Subject: H P Blavatsky A Fiery Messanger. concluding volume of The Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:01:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers I must also tell you that I was greatly hurt by the lines you sent about H. P. Blavatsky. I sensed in them an echo of the vulgar opinions so characteristic of persons of a certain type. I must tell you that, definitely, H. P. Blavatsky was a fiery messenger of the White Brotherhood. Most certainly she was the bearer of the entrusted knowledge. Definitely, of all the Theosophists, only H. P. Blavatsky had the privilege of receiving the Teaching directly from the Great Teachers in one of their Ashrams in Tibet. She was the great spirit who accepted the bitter task of giving to humanity, lost in dead dogma and on its way to atheism, the impulse to study the great sacred Doctrines of the East. Precisely, only through H. P. Blavatsky was it possible to approach the White Brotherhood, as she was the link in the Hierarchic Chain. But some of those who surrounded her were very much beneath her fiery spirit and heart; yet in their self-conceit they thought of reaching alone the Heights, ignoring the Hierarchical link as well as her merit. In their jealousy, they slandered, criticized and inveighed against her, the one who had given them everything, who trusted them. But all those self-deluded, arrogant people achieved nothing, for the law of Hierarchy is immutable. For the benefit of the general work, the Mahatmas corresponded with some of her co-workers; however, not one of those people was admitted into discipleship. In the writings of H. P. Blavatsky, and in The Mahatma Letters, you will find the statement that H. P. Blavatsky was the Hierarchical link which, if neglected, would cause complete failure. And now the self-deluded ones who have passed into the Subtle World and are surrounded by their followers are probably even further away from the Stronghold of the White Brotherhood than ever. Whereas, our great compatriot, because of her fiery striving, was incarnated (in Hungary) almost immediately after her death, and now it has been ten years since she arrived in her physical body at the main Stronghold and under the name of Brother X is working for the salvation of humanity. Thus acts Cosmic Justice. H. P. Blavatsky was a great martyr in the real sense of the word. The envy, slander and persecution of the ignorant killed her, and her work remained unfinished. The concluding volume of The Secret Doctrine could not be given. Thus people deprive themselves of the highest. I much revere the great spirit and fiery heart of our country-woman, and I know that in the Russia of the future her name will be fittingly honored. H. P. Blavatsky should truly evoke our national pride. Great martyr for Light and Truth! May Glory always be with her! Letters of Helena Roerich Vol I >>>>>Consciousness is one, yet produces the varied forms of the many<<<<< From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Aug 01 17:36:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 29258 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout05.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0600033XP2EX@mtaout05.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:36:15 -0500 Subject: "FACETS OF INQUIRY" (#17) [1 Question, 3 Essays] To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3D49E210.B2A4075@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers will find this article in the "Facets of Inquiry" department to be very informative and useful: =================================================== FACETS OF INQUIRY (Article #17 in this grouping): ----------------------------------------------------- This is how it appears on the department's Index page: ----------------------------------------------------- (17) Winter 2001-2002 [Question by the Editors: "In light of the recent terrorist attacks on the United States, what does it truly mean 'to turn the other cheek'?" This is followed by their introductory comments on the subject, which is then followed by answers from theosophy students under these three headings: (1) UNIVERSALS; (2) RESTRAINT OR RETALIATION? (3) NEW PARADIGM.] ------------------------------------------------- [The 1st link is to the article itself. If it's broken, the 2nd link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page, entitled: "Nine Groupings of Articles for Young People & Adults-- Most of Which are in 'Question & Answer' Format", where you will see the links to the index pages for all 9 groupings (departments). Click on the 9th one and then scroll down the page to the 17th article.] http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/FacetsOfInquiry/No.17-Winter2001-2002.html http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#13 ==================================================== John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Aug 01 20:17:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 45320 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 03:16:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2002 03:16:57 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 03:16:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1752 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.114 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ian wrote: "Even at that stage HPB said, in 1888, that Volume III was 'entirely ready'. This was two and a half years before her death. The thing I find baffling is that GRS Mead, who was her personal secretary during the last two years of her life, made no mention of seeing the correct manuscript of Volume III. He states, as Daniel points out in his paper, that he has edited almost all of what HPB had written in English, with the exception of Isis Unveiled, but had never seen what was published as Volume III. One would have thought that if there was a Volume III extant at the time, which HPB said was 'entirely ready' in 1888, then Mead would have seen it. If this were the case why did he not say that the Volume III which was published was not the correct one ?" Later in the same email, Ian wrote: "This [the story about A. Keightley helping HPB destroy her Volume III shortly before her death] would certainly explain a lot, but not Mead's lack of knowledge of the true Volume III manuscript. Unless Mead was himself privy to what had happened and was maintaining secrecy." Dallas commented: "It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew." Ian replied to Dallas' comment: "This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was 'entirely ready', and Mead's lack of reference to it." Ian and Dallas, could one of you or both of you tell me exactly what you are trying to convey in the above statements? I want to make a few comments but I want to be sure I understand the significance of your statements. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Aug 01 22:04:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 80616 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 05:04:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 12449 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.114 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not=20 have core teachings. These students have characterized those who=20 believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and=20 labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other=20 negative terms.=20 In response, I've appended excerpts from an 1975 article by Boris de=20 Zirkoff, the editor of The Blavatsky Collected Writings. I believe=20 Mr. de Zirkoff's word reflect common sense and a practical approach=20 to the study of Theosophy. I've also appended a number of excerpts=20 from H.P.B.'s first great work, Isis Unveiled, which, in my opinion,=20 confirm much of what Mr. de Zirkoff has written.=20 First, Boris de Zirkoff:=20 For some years past, a tendency has existed among some [theosophical]=20 students ... to consider theosophy as some sort of generalized=20 approach to truth, a tradition, often somewhat uncertain, concerning=20 various aspects of the Universe and man, a system of ideas and=20 concepts which can hardly be defined with any degree of exactness or=20 clarity. It is most likely that this tendency owes its origin to a=20 desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the creation of any kind of=20 creed. The motive may have been laudable, but the methods employed=20 have been rather dubious.=20 We should never lose sight of the fact that the Esoteric Philosophy=20 is a very definite doctrine, a system of thought based on specific=20 postulates, on well-defined propositions ... Even a cursory glance at=20 the pages of The Secret Doctrine would confirm this fact. That work=20 contains innumerable instances where H.P.B. (and the Adept-Brothers=20 speaking through her) uses such expressions as: "the Secret Doctrine=20 teaches," "secret records declare," "The Esoteric Philosophy states=20 that ... ," "it is the teaching of the ancient occult doctrine," and=20 others. If the student cared to underline these passages and then=20 read them consecutively, or place them in juxtaposition, he would see=20 at a glance that the "Secret Doctrine," as a system of thought, is=20 about as definite as any science or philosophy is ever apt to be, and=20 stands in direct opposition to a large number of other ideas which=20 have become current in the world under the name of one or another=20 religion or philosophy.=20 It is perfectly true that the objects of the organized body known as=20 The Theosophical Society have never contained any definition of what=20 Theosophy is or is not; but it is equally true that the teachings=20 promulgated by the Founders and their Superiors are defined in no=20 uncertain language throughout the length and breadth of the original=20 theosophical literature, leaving no room whatsoever for doubt as to=20 what the system of thought known as theosophy is all about, what it=20 teaches and what it does not.=20 If this state of affairs is at any time considered to be credal in=20 nature, and therefore dogmatic, then we will have to assume that the=20 statement of 'two and two making four' is also a creed, or that the=20 laws governing gravitational and magnetic energies are dogmatic.=20 The propositions of the Esoteric Philosophy may seem to be dogmatic=20 or may be interpreted as a creed by those of us =97 probably the=20 overwhelming majority of us =97 -who are yet unable to prove them to ourselves experimentally. This situation is not much different=20 from the fact that a beginner in chemistry can hardly prove to=20 himself the alleged fact that water is H2O, until he has grasped the=20 methods necessary to verify it experimentally.=20 If we are prepared to comply with the conditions necessary for a=20 personal investigation of the facts of nature defined by the Occult=20 Doctrine, we shall be in a position to prove to ourselves=20 experimentally the validity of its propositions. How many of us are=20 ready to do so?=20 In the meantime =97 and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief =97 we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason=20 and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its=20 practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become=20 gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates=20 of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have=20 become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the=20 laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of=20 the occult aspects of Nature.=20 And from Isis Unveiled by H.P. Blavatsky:=20 The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat=20 intimate acquaintance with Eastern Adepts and study of their=20 science ... we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such=20 mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly=20 designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we=20 lent a ready ear ... (I, v, vi)=20 ... from the first ages of man, the fundamental truths of all that we=20 are permitted to know on earth was in the safe keeping of the adepts=20 of the sanctuary ... those guardians of the primitive divine=20 revelation, who had solved every problem that is within the grasp of=20 human intellect, were bound together by a universal freemasonry of=20 science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken chain around the=20 globe. (I, 37-38)=20 There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of thoughtful=20 and solitary students, who pass their lives in obscurity, far from=20 the rumors of the world, studying the great problems of the physical=20 and spiritual universes. They have their secret records in which are=20 preserved the fruits of the scholastic labors of the long line of=20 recluses whose successors they are ... (I, 557)=20 The esoteric doctrine ... teaches ... that the one infinite and=20 unknown Essence exists from all eternity, and in regular and=20 harmonious successions is either passive or active. In the poetical=20 phraseology of Manu these conditions are called the 'day' and=20 the 'night' of Brahma. The latter is either 'awake' or 'asleep.' ...=20 Upon inaugurating an active period, says The Secret Doctrine, an=20 expansion of this Divine essence, from within out- wardly, occurs in=20 obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible=20 universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces=20 thus progressively set in motion. In like manner, when the passive=20 condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes=20 place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and=20 progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its=20 material dispersed; and 'darkness,' solitary and alone, broods once=20 more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a metaphor which will convey=20 the idea still more clearly, an out breathing of the 'unknown=20 essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to=20 disappear. This process has been going on from all eternity, and our=20 present universe is but one of an infinite series which had no=20 beginning and will have no end. (II, pp. 264-265)=20 Gautama, no less than all other great reformers, had a doctrine for=20 his 'elect' and another for the outside masses ... Gautama left the=20 esoteric and most dangerous portion of the 'secret knowledge'=20 untouched ... (II, 319)=20 ... the Secret Doctrine is the Truth ... (II, 292)=20 ... many are those who ... will remain in doubt and mortal agony as=20 to whether, when man dies, he will live again, although the question=20 has been solved by long bygone generations of sages ... except the=20 initiates, no one has understood the mystic writing. The key was in=20 the keeping of those who knew how to commune with the invisible=20 Presence, and who had received, from the lips of mother Nature=20 herself, her grand truths ... (I, 573)=20 ... This 'secret doctrine' contains the alpha and omega of universal=20 science; therein lies the corner and the keystone of all the ancient=20 and modern knowledge; and alone in this ... doctrine remains buried=20 the absolute in the philosophy of the dark problems of life and=20 death ... (I, 511)=20 Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever land=20 or under whatever climate, are the expression of the same identical=20 thoughts, the key to which is in the esoteric doctrine ... And the=20 clergy of every nation, though practicing rites and ceremonies which=20 may have differed externally, had evidently been initiated into the=20 same traditional mysteries which were taught all over the world ...=20 (I, 561)=20 ... the Northern seSwedenborg, advises people to search for the lost=20 word among the hierophants of Tartary, China and Thibet; for it is=20 there, and only there now ...=20 ... the four Vedas; the Books of Hermes; the Chaldean Book of=20 Numbers; the Nazarene Codex; the Kabala ... ; the Sepher Jezira; the=20 Book of Wisdom ... ; the Brahmanas; the Stan-gyour, of the Thibetans;=20 all these volumes have the same ground-work. Varying but in=20 allegories they teach the same secret doctrine which ... will prove=20 to be the Ultima Thule of true philosophy, and disclose what is this=20 lost word. (I, 580)=20 ... the 'secret doctrine' or wisdom was identical in every=20 country ... (I, 444)=20 ... What we desire to prove is, that underlying every ancient popular=20 religion was the same ancient wisdom- doctrine, one and identical,=20 professed and practiced by the initiates of every country, who alone=20 were aware of its existence and importance ... A single glance ... is=20 enough to assure one that it could not have attained the marvelous=20 perfection in which we find it pictured to us in the relics of the=20 various esoteric systems, except after a succession of ages. A=20 philosophy so profound, a moral code so ennobling, and practical=20 results so conclusive and so uniformly demonstrable is not the growth=20 of a generation, or even a single epoch. Fact must have been piled=20 upon fact, deduction upon deduction, science have begotten science,=20 and myriads of the brightest human intellects have reflected upon the=20 laws of nature, before this ancient doctrine had taken concrete=20 shape. The proofs of this identity of fundamental doctrine in the old=20 religions are found in the prevalence of a system of initiation; in=20 the secret sacerdotal castes who had the guardianship of mystical=20 words of power, and a public display of a phenomenal control over=20 natural forces, indicating association with preterhuman beings ...=20 As we proceed, we will point out the evidences of this identity of=20 vows, formulas, rites, and doctrines, between the ancient faiths. We=20 will also show that not only their memory is still preserved in=20 India, but also that the Secret Association is still alive and as=20 active as ever ... the chief pontiff and hierophant, the Brahmatma,=20 is still accessible to those 'who know,' though perhaps recognized by=20 another name; and that the ramifications of his influence extend=20 throughout the world ... (II, 99-100)=20 Our examination of the multitudinous religious faiths that mankind,=20 early and late, have professed, most assuredly indicates that they=20 have all been derived from one primitive source. It would seem as if=20 they were all but different modes of expressing the yearning of the=20 imprisoned human soul for intercourse with supernal spheres. As the=20 while ray of light is decomposed by the prism into the various colors=20 of the solar spectrum, so the beam of divine truth, in passing=20 through the three-sided prism of man's nature, has been broken up=20 into vari-colored fragments called religions. And, as the rays of the=20 spectrum, by imperceptible shadings, merge into each other, so the=20 great theologies that have appeared at different degrees of=20 divergence from the original source, have been connected by minor=20 schisms, schools, and off-shoots from the one side or the other.=20 Combined, their aggregate represents one eternal truth; separate,=20 they are but shades of human error and the signs of=20 imperfection ... " "What has been contemptuously termed Paganism, was=20 ancient wisdom replete with Deity; and Judaism and its offspring,=20 Christianity and Islamism, derived whatever of inspiration they=20 contained from this ethic parent. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism=20 are the double source from which all religions sprung; Nirvana is the=20 ocean to which all tend. (II, 639)=20 End of article. ------------------------------------- Visit Blavatsky Archives at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Aug 01 22:22:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 31573 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-094-030.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.94.30] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aUts-00013o-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:22:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4A1730.FEF6E67B@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:22:56 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 danielhcaldwell wrote: > Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not > have core teachings. These students have characterized those who > believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and > labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other > negative terms. Theosophy has no core teachings. The various Theosophical Societies do, but no member is required to believe them (except for their own individual interpretations of the 3 Objects). Bart Lidofsky From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 02 03:04:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 45575 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from modem-1184.llama.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.180.160] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aZHr-0005os-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:03:59 +0100 Message-ID: <03fa01c23a0c$4bda2000$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:34:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Hi Daniel, What is flitting across my mind is that GRS Mead may have been privy to plans which meant the withdrawal of the prospective Volume III. If the existence of the manuscript for this were acknowledged, then there may have been a clamour to have it published anyway, so Mead just never mentioned it. In other words, it was deliberately suppressed, either by HPB herself on instructions from a higher authority, or by someone else. Mead was aware of this, but said nothing. That seems to reconcile the fact that HPB said it was "entirely ready", and Mead's failure to even mention it when, as her personal secretary for the last two years of her life, and as a person who said he had worked with everything she had written in English except Isis Unveiled, he must have seen it if it were extant. Do you have an alternative theory, Daniel, which reconciles Mead's failure to mention it, and HPB's statement that it was "entirely ready" ? Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 4:16 AM Subject: Theos-World Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead > Ian wrote: > > "Even at that stage HPB said, in 1888, that Volume III was 'entirely > ready'. This was two and a half years before her death. The thing I > find baffling is that GRS Mead, who was her personal secretary during > the last two years of her life, made no mention of seeing the correct > manuscript of Volume III. He states, as Daniel points out in his > paper, that he has edited almost all of what HPB had written in > English, with the exception of Isis Unveiled, but had never seen what > was published as Volume III. One would have thought that if there was > a Volume III extant at the time, which HPB said was 'entirely ready' > in 1888, then Mead would have seen it. If this were the case why did > he not say that the Volume III which was published was not the > correct one ?" > > Later in the same email, Ian wrote: > > "This [the story about A. Keightley helping HPB destroy her Volume > III shortly before her death] would certainly explain a lot, but not > Mead's lack of knowledge of the true Volume III manuscript. Unless > Mead was himself privy to what had happened and was maintaining > secrecy." > > Dallas commented: > > "It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead exercised > discretion and did not always say all he knew." > > Ian replied to Dallas' comment: > > "This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy > between HPB's statement that Vol III was 'entirely ready', and Mead's > lack of reference to it." > > Ian and Dallas, could one of you or both of you tell me exactly what > you are trying to convey in the above statements? > > I want to make a few comments but I want to be sure I understand the > significance of your statements. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 02 09:01:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 16:01:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 77158 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from modem-1612.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.150.76] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aes0-0006HE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 17:01:41 +0100 Message-ID: <061e01c23a3e$40b6cb60$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:14:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Thanks for the pointer to the sites about Alice Bailey. I have to say I am always wary of sites which severely criticise someone, particularly when it comes down to orthodoxy ! And very especially with sites like The Watchman, which I believe is backed by mainstream Christianity. There are sites which give HPB's reputation a hard time ! :o))) It was, nevertheless an interesting excursion, and I have saved some of these articles for printing out and a more measured perusal. I still have not adjusted to reading long articles from a computer screen, and I doubt I ever will. All these sources seem to be agreed that Alice Bailey is not in the same league as HPB, so to speak. Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey > Ian, you wrote: > > "Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice > Bailey ? She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" I have often > seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know what > connection she had with the TS ?" > > Ian, you might want to read and study the following four items: > > (1) "Theosophy's Shadow" by Nicholas Weeks. A critical look at the > claims and teachings of Alice A. Bailey. This article is a revised > and expanded version of one that appeared in the Summer 1997 issue of > Fohat, a Theosophical magazine published in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. > According to my understanding, Nicholas was once a very devoted > student of Mrs. Bailey's teachings. But after coming into contact > with HP Blavatsky's writings, Nicholas started finding differences > and discrepancies between these writings. > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm > > (2) "Alice Bailey" by Reba Parker and Timothy Oliver > http://www.watchman.org/profile/bailypro.htm > > (3) "The Pseudo-occultism of Alice Bailey" by Alice Leighton Cleather > and Basil Crump > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html > > (4) "Alice Bailey Teachings Examined." High Country Theosophist, > April 2001, pp. 1-14. > http://www.theosophy.net/hct/hct0104.pdf > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Aug 02 12:47:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 33112 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.7e.2b7aad7f (25308) for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7e.2b7aad7f.2a7c3be8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:47:52 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions underlying the truths of both Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis -- that are entirely consistent with modern science as well as ancient esoteric scriptural and oral teachings. Together, they constitute the fundamental teachings of the "Secret Doctrine" -- supposedly the basis of all "true" theosophical knowledge. What's the difference between such "fundamental teachings" and "core teachings"? Since "theosophy" as presented to the West by HPB, refers solely to the "Secret Doctrine of the East" as its source -- the only basis for understanding or discussion of the fundamental teachings, are the books and writings of HPB along with the Eastern scriptural references she referred to. "Objects of the Theosophical Movement," on the other hand, are not "teachings" but simply organizational purposes and student guidance. Also, "fundamental teachings" cannot be "dogmas." It follows, then, that any "true theosophists" who understand the "fundamental principles" and the true nature of the Universe which they govern, should be proud to call themselves "theosophical fundamentalists" . . . The word "fundamentalist" having an entirely different meaning when referring to those who follow cooked up religious dogmas, or opinionated biblical interpretations on faith alone. (See below.) LHM Ref: (From American Heritage Dictionary) dog'ma n. pl. dog'mas or dog'ma'ta 1. Theology - A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. fun'da'men'tal'ism n. 1. a. Often Fundamentalism - An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in 1920 in opposition to Liberalism and secularism. b. Adherence to the theology of this movement. 2. A movement or point of view characterized by rigid adherence to fundamental or basic principles. In a message dated 08/02/02 12:24:10 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >danielhcaldwell wrote: >> Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not >> have core teachings. These students have characterized those who >> believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and >> labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other >> negative terms. > > Theosophy has no core teachings. The various Theosophical Societies do, >but no member is required to believe them (except for their own >individual interpretations of the 3 Objects). > > Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Aug 02 22:28:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 05:28:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 15906 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17arT6-0001Re-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 22:28:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4B6A5D.CD41C3B1@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:30:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? References: <7e.2b7aad7f.2a7c3be8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Aug 03 03:13:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 3720 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E01F262E1F for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <009201c23ad5$be1530a0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:08:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dallas and all of you, What ? Interesting. Dallas wrote: "By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.." Can we have that letter emailed - online - Dallas or is it to long ? from Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] a= bout SD Vol. III > July 12 2002 >=20 > Many thanks for your good comments Daniel. >=20 > I can see some difficulties from the point of view of exact > physical securing of proofs. I have no more access to any > "primary" documents that I know of, or that you do not > already seem to have yourself. >=20 > I do a lot of thinking on the nature of certain "reticence " > that H PB and others in those days exercised. Trying to > fill in the blanks at this stage and over 100 years after > the events is not easy at all. Of course there will be > guess work and surmise. The only appeal can be to reason and > to continuity of a train of thought. I sympathise with some > aspects of those. >=20 > My methods would not be accepted by "scholars" of today and > their pre-set criteria. But I am not very concerned with > that. Their perception of "gaps" cannot be reconciled if > there are no physical documents -- true. >=20 > Here is a for instance: >=20 > By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in > THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March > 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? > I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also > gives some of the rather strict interpretations of > discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.. >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 >=20 > Dallas. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: danielhcaldwell > [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:28 PM > To: > Subject: Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] > about SD Vol. III >=20 > Dallas, you write: >=20 > "H.P.Blavatsky sent the original draft to Subba Row in > Madras > to review. He found that too many of the Brahmanical > esoteric secrets were to be revealed. He could not stand > that, and that is what set him against H.P.Blavatsky see > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1925) pp. 51, 137, 150, 235, > 570. That draft has been retained in the Adyar library. H > P B then rewrote those pages and we have that version in the > "original 1888 Edition" of the S D." >=20 > Dallas, there are a number of confusions and misstatements > in what > you write above. And I see that your key idea in what you > write > above apparently originates from what is given on page 570 > of THE > THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, 1925 edition. >=20 > It would also appear that this material on p. 570 can be > found > online. I now quote the main portion of this material as > found on > the WWW: >=20 > ------------------------------------ >=20 > The utter disappearance without a trace left behind, of the > genuine > Third and Fourth Volumes of the Secret Doctrine remains to > this day > an unrevealed mystery. And as to Mrs. Besant's spurious > "Third > Volume," her own Preface alone is ample to convince any > careful > student, able to sift statements, that it is nothing more > than a > hodge-podge of rejected manuscripts, "literary remains," > private > papers originally issued to the E.S.T. during the life-time > of > H.P.B., and largely rejected manuscript of the first volume > of the > Original Edition. For it is, or should be, well known to > every > Theosophical student that, as repeatedly announced in the > earlier > volumes of "The Theosophist," H.P.B.'s original intention > was that > the "Secret Doctrine" should be a revised edition of "Isis > Unveiled," > and in pursuance of that intention she wrote one entire > volume, prior > to 1886, when returning confidence and trust in her by the > mass of > members of the T.S. enabled her to enlarge her plan and > write an > entirely new work. A copy of that early first volume was > sent by > H.P.B. to Subba Row for criticism and comment. Followed his > breach > with H.P.B.(6) as already narrated. He refused to do > anything with > it, but kept the manuscript. It is matter from that rejected > manuscript which is incorporated in Mrs. Besant's "Third > Volume." > And, -- notable phenomenon -- the fact is admitted by Mrs. > Besant > herself in "The Theosophist" for March, 1922 -- twenty-five > years > after the event. Why did she concoct this spurious "Third > Volume" in > the first instance? And why did she in 1922 let slip the > truth which > in 1897 she not only suppressed, but replaced by a > deliberate untruth? >=20 > ----------------------- >=20 > [Extracted from: > http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheTheosophicalMovemen > t- > Series/Chapter-31.html ] >=20 > To view this extract online the reader will have to > carefully paste > all of the link into the address field of one's browser. >=20 > ----------------------- >=20 > SOME OF MY COMMENTS: >=20 > A number of general assertions are made in the quoted text > on the WWW > but the reader is NOT given access (or even citations) to > the primary > sources from which these generalized statements are made. >=20 >=20 > And I call attention to the following statement in the > above-quoted > text: >=20 > -------------------------- >=20 > And as to Mrs. Besant's spurious "Third Volume," her own > Preface > alone is ample to convince any careful student, able to sift > statements, that it is nothing more than a hodge-podge of > rejected > manuscripts, "literary remains," private papers originally > issued to > the E.S.T. during the life-time of H.P.B., and largely > rejected > manuscript of the first volume of the Original Edition. >=20 > ------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Please pay special attention to the wording that reads: >=20 > ". . . largely REJECTED manuscript of the first volume of > the > Original Edition. . . ." >=20 > Rejected by whom? By HPB??? >=20 > What are the anonymous writers trying to convey to us? >=20 > That HPB wrote "one entire volume, prior to 1886" that was > later "rejected" [by whom?] and completely set aside and > that > subsequently HPB wrote a SD manuscript completely new??? >=20 >=20 > DTB I would assume that the Masters and H P B were > responsible for that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dallas, can you specify in some understandable detail what > the > contentions of the anonymous authors are in the above quoted > extracts > from page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1925 ed.)? >=20 > If not, can you expand on the statement you made that is > quoted at > the very beginning of this posting? >=20 > I am seriously trying to understand what is being stated in > both your > quote and from the quote from page 570 of the TM book. >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 03:14:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 74639 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.210) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 10:14:37 -0000 Received: from modem-4077.rhino.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.111.237] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17avvg-0004sm-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:14:36 +0100 Message-ID: <08f501c23ad6$ea669940$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: <166.11874661.2a7adb5e@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:57:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae That is very interesting, Dallas. A nice little "aside", and confirmation of the story. Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein > For the full story about Einstein and the SD, go to: > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html > > LHM > > > In a message dated 08/01/02 7:25:26 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: > > >Aug 1 2002 > > > >Dear Ian: > > > >Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET > >DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. > > > >After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and > >gave their library the book he had used with all his notes > >in it. > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Dal > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Aug 03 05:49:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 45391 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 12:49:54 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.134.1247fc4b (4539) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:49:37 EDT Subject: sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 87 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Dallas writes; But the one question no one every fully answers is: "After you have accumulated money, power and ease, and come to the end of your life, what next ? Then again the vast shadow of mystery looms: what happens when this body dies and we are left naked without money, power, friends, servants, family ? Are we to be flayed or favored? (It is at this point that priesthood steps in with claims that are never verified.) ======================================= A boat had just docked at the boat ramp in a tiny Mexican village. An American tourist watched. He complimented the Mexican fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. "Not very long," answered the Mexican. "But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the American. The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meets his needs and those of his family. The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs...I have a full life." The American interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you! You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angles, or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge enterprise." "How long would that take?" asked the Mexican. "Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American. "And after that?" "Afterwards? That's when it really gets interesting," answered the American, laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions!" "Millions? Really? And after that?" "After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta, and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends." From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 06:53:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 13:53:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 7238 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 13:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 13:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 13:53:07 -0000 Received: from modem-3524.wolf.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.141.196] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17azL8-0007dD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 14:53:06 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c23af5$8197c140$c1de883e@u0z2y2> To: References: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 14:53:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae That's a story I intend to remember ! Oh, the truth of it ! Ian > ======================================= > A boat had just docked at the boat ramp in a tiny Mexican village. An > American tourist watched. He complimented the Mexican fisherman on the > quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. > "Not very long," answered the Mexican. > "But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the > American. > The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meets his > needs > and those of his family. > The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" > > "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with > my wife. In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a > few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs...I have a full life." > > The American interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you! > You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra > fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the > extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a > third > one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of > selling > your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing > plants and even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village > and move to Mexico City, Los Angles, or even New York City! From there you > can direct your huge enterprise." > "How long would that take?" asked the Mexican. > "Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American. > "And after that?" > "Afterwards? That's when it really gets interesting," answered the > American, > laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks > and make millions!" > "Millions? Really? And after that?" > > "After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the > coast, > sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta, > and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends." > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 08:46:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15475 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b16b-0005og-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 08:46:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4BFB08.7BB0DCAE@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:47:20 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> <002801c23af5$8197c140$c1de883e@u0z2y2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Ian McRae wrote: > That's a story I intend to remember ! Oh, the truth of it ! That's the problem with getting an MBA from a school like Harvard. Now, if the man had gotten his MBA from a school like Pace, he would have told the fisherman that, by catching extra fish and saving, he can hedge his family against poor fishing seasons. By investing the money on extra boats, he can give friends and/or relatives who are honest but down on their luck a chance, by hiring them to run the fishing. At this point, the man can spend much MORE time doing what he enjoys, while the income comes in from his investments. On the other hand, some people are not suited to this kind of life; that's where you get your managers and workers. The fisherman, on the other hand, is already working for himself, and is therefore in a better position to profit from his labors than those who depend on others to eat. It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is the government's job to protect the public. Bart Lidofsky From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Aug 03 08:54:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 15:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 36020 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.16c.119259c7 (3932) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <16c.119259c7.2a7d568f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:53:51 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/3/02 12:29:17 AM Central Daylight Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. >> Well, let's see. Logic? Galen based his medical ideas on logic. Of course his ideas of medicine would get you killed if any doctor actually used them. And of course we must forget the crabbed ravings of Aquinas and his natural law nonsense, all perfectly logical. "Now, what do we burn besides witches?" "More witches?" "No no no! Wood. Now what floats?" "Wood?" "Exactly, so witches burn and float, therefore witches are made of wood!" Logic and truth are mutually exclusive commodities. Chuck From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 12:55:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 19:55:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 84335 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.12d.15290c36 (4410) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <12d.15290c36.2a7d8f3b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:55:39 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/03/02 12:29:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com (Bart Lidofsky) writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions > > The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. How so? In my experience, I have met Kabbalists and Sufis that disagree with each other as well as with Theosophists on a number of interpretive levels. But, I never heard of any logical disagreement on "fundamental principles." So, in your view, which one or more of the three theosophical propositions might they disagree with? Do they disagree with the Absolute, ineffable, divine origin of all "life" in the Cosmos? Do they disagree with the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity? Do they disagree with the experiential purpose and evolution of Man's spiritual soul through all the kingdoms of nature to eventually return to the universal Spirit or Godhead? And, if there is such a disagreement -- would you kindly explain what are the "fundamental principles" or "truths" that they base their teachings on? LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 13:22:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 19256 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.25.2b8b923b (4410) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <25.2b8b923b.2a7d9594@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is >the government's job to protect the public. Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of view. ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems that its typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical and non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric words. LHM From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Aug 03 15:18:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:18:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 14992 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk43niHiA144gMT9NHQ/uQrcA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9BR73YU; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:18:06 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:08:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Message-ID: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-37 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Hi Leon, Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. Larry On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect > >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that > they > >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it > is > >the government's job to protect the public. > > Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of > view. > ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems > that its > typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical and > > non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric > words. > > LHM > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 15:39:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 40873 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.211) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from modem-920.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.147.152] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17b7Ya-0006SF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:39:33 +0100 Message-ID: <00f501c23b3f$0d12a7a0$c1de883e@u0z2y2> To: References: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:41:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae > Hi Leon, > > Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical > point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as > dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals > and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have > simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. > > Larry Perhaps I'm a tad dense, but I can never quite understand what politics and Theosophy have in common. To me they seem mutually exclusive. Anyone care to enlighten me. Orra Best, Ian From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Aug 03 15:40:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 83607 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:40:17 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4jtzkC4bHvkICq14zezqZKQ=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9BTFGCQ; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:39:37 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:29:31 -0400 Subject: left/right addendium Message-ID: <20020803.182933.-848801.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 BTW The usage of left and right in politics comes from the European custom of seating the liberal, socialist, labor and radical parties (and now green?) to the Left of the speakers dias while the conservative and reactionary parties are relegated to the Right. Nothing more SINSTER than that. Larry ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Aug 03 17:14:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 6484 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from pool0040.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.40] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b92e-0005vN-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:14:40 -0700 To: "Morten Sufilight" Subject: RE: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:12:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009201c23ad5$be1530a0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 3 2002 Dear M S The letter from Subba Row is a bit long -- as most of his writings are, so with your permission I will make some extracts from it in the areas I thought were relevant. You must remember this is a copy of a typewritten letter and --- blessed be -- I can't find it. But I will search and when found I will send it on. No. I remember -- I lent it to a friend to read, and when it comes back I will copy parts of it and send it on to you. Dal So be patient with me. ------------------------------ -----Original Message----- From: Morten Sufilight [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:09 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Hi Dallas and all of you, What ? Interesting. Dallas wrote: "By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.." Can we have that letter emailed - online - Dallas or is it to long ? from Sufilight with peace and love... From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sat Aug 03 17:21:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 00:21:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 11677 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from 1cust97.tnt34.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.28.97] helo=u7k5a4) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b999-0003L4-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:49:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 And, for still another "unbiased" perspective, try reading the THE UNFINISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ALICE A. BAILEY, Pub. Lucis Publishing Co, New York, 1951. (by, Alice A. Bailey) This is an interesting book, and tells of the relationship with D.K. from her perspective, and in addition, it is available on CD, and on-line at www.lucistrust.org I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't want you to concider this on-line source. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian McRae" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool > > "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that > > Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: > > A question, Daniel. > > Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice Bailey ? > She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" > > I have often seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know > what connection she had with the TS ? She worked in the Hollywood (California) branch of the TS, and met her husband there, and was contacted by D.K. there for a series of books, (so she says). > > Orra Best, > Ian > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 03 18:36:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 79500 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:36:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Unfinished Autobiography by Alice A. Bailey Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 447 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell You can read online The Unfinished Autobiography by Alice A. Bailey at: http://www.netnews.org/bk/autobiography/toc.html But one needs to compare and contrast what HPB wrote and taught with what AAB wrote and taught to know if there are the kind of differences discussed by Nicholas Weeks in his article at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 03 21:18:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 19129 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 04:18:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Contents of SD Volume I in latter part of 1886 thru mid 1887 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 6094 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ian and Dallas et al, I would appreciate your comments on the following material that I have compiled to try to elucidate the problem surrounding the contents of=20 volume III of the SD. Daniel -------------------------------------------------------------------- In a letter dated September 23, 1886, H.P. Blavatsky in Ostende wrote=20 to Colonel Henry S. Olcott in India: I send you the MSS. of Secret Doctrine.....Now I send only 1st volume=20 of Introduct. Section.... There are in the 1st Introductory Vol.=20 Seven Sections or Chapt. =A7 and 27 Appendices, several App. attached to every Section from l to 6, etc. Now all this will make=20 either more or at any rate one volume and it is not the S.D. but a=20 Preface to it.... (The Theosophist, March 1925, p. 789.) But the manuscript of the first volume was not sent to India at that=20 time. The reason for this delay is described in a later letter from=20 Blavatsky to Olcott. (See HPB's letter dated Oct. 21, 1886 and=20 published in the March,1925 issue of The Theosophist on p. 787.) Finally sometime around Nov. 20th of the same year, Countess=20 Wachtmeister on a trip to London mailed the manuscript of volume I to=20 Henry Olcott in India. In Olcott's handwritten diary for Friday, Dec. 10, 1886, one finds the following excerpt: "Recd. MSS of Secret Doctrine, Vol. I. . . . " In his Annual Address delivered to the T.S. Convention at Adyar,=20 Madras, India on December 27, 1886, Colonel Olcott mentioned the=20 receipt of this Volume I manuscript: "The MSS. of the first volume has been sent me. . . .It will gratify=20 you to learn that it more than maintains her reputation for learning=20 and literary ability. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January=20 1887, pp. xx-xxi.) The next day in another address given at the opening of the Adyar=20 Libary, Olcott also spoke of the recently received volume I=20 manuscript: ". . . the entire MSS. of the first of five volumes that Madame=20 Blavatsky is now writing upon the Secret Doctrine, is in my hands;=20 and that even a cursory reading has satisfied better critics than=20 myself [T. Subba Row] that it will be one of the most important=20 contributions ever made to philsophical and scientific=20 scholarship. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January 1887, pp. xlvii. Sometime around December 15, after receiving the manuscript of Volume=20 I of the SD, Olcott wrote Madame Blavatsky telling her that the=20 manuscript had been received and that Subba Row had been reading the=20 manuscript. On January 4, 1887, H.P.B. wrote replying to Olcott's letter: "I am glad Subba Row likes my Proem. But it is only as Preliminary=20 Vol. and the real original doctrine is in the volume [two] I will=20 send you when Fawcett comes on the 20th and then he will take it to=20 England himself --- for I cannot send it or rather insure it from here [in Ostende]." The manuscripts of Volumes I and II as mentioned above are preserved=20 in the Adyar Archives. The partial contents of Volume I can be seen=20 in the following table: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm Volume II of this manuscript consists of the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan on Cosmogony and HPB's Commentaries thereon. Only a few pages of Volume III is extant in the Adyar Archives. This=20 third "volume" deals with the Evolution of Humanity. So from a careful reading and study of HPB's own letters in 1886 and=20 1887 as well as from a careful analysis of the contents of the extant=20 SD manuscript in the Adyar Archives, one sees that in early 1887 the=20 SD was divided into the following three volumes: Volume I: A Historical Overview of Occultism and its Adepts, etc. [Note: HPB's letters written in 1886 given several descriptions of=20 the contents of this volume. See=20 http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiipt3.htm Compare these descriptions=20 with the actual extant contents of the first volume. See=20 http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm ] Volume II: Evolution of Cosmos as found in the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan Volume III: Evolution of Man (Humanity) as found in further Stanzas=20 of Dzyan Some months later when H.P. Blavatsky had moved to London, Bertram and Archibald Keightley had the privilege of going through the SD manuscript. Here are Bertram's relevant comments: "A day or two after our arrival at Maycot [in May, 1887], H.P.B.=20 placed the whole of the so far completed MSS. in the hands of Dr.=20 [Archibald] Keightley and myself....We both read the whole mass of=20 MSS.--a pile over three feet high--most carefully...and then, after=20 prolonged consultation, faced [HPB]...with the solemn opinion that=20 the whole of the matter must be rearranged on some definite plan...." "Finally we laid before her a plan, ...." ". . . instead of making the first volume to consist, as she had intended, of the history of some great Occultists, we advised her to=20 follow the natural order of exposition, and begin with the Evolution=20 of Cosmos, to pass from that to the Evolution of Man, then to deal=20 with the historical part in a third volume treating of the lives of=20 some great Occultists. . . .This plan was laid before H.P.B., and it=20 was duly sanctioned by her. . . . " [Quoted in Reminiscences of H. P.=20 Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine, by Countess Constance Wachtmeister=20 et al., Quest edition, 1976, pp. 78-9.] So as Bertram Keightley tells us, the order of the volumes of The Secret Doctrine was rearranged in mid-1887. Volume I became Volume=20 III. AFTER the rearrangement in 1887, the volumes would have been listed as follows: Volume I: Evolution of Cosmos Volume II: Evolution of Man Volume III: History of Some Great Occultists In summary, the extant volume I of the SD manuscript preserved in the Adyar Archives is concrete evidence as to what was in volume I as of late 1886. An outline of that content can be seen in the table=20 already given above and which I give again: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm This is the same material and volumes seen by Bertram Keighley=20 several months later in London. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 22:14:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 05:14:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 96894 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bDin-00034k-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4CB882.49197A6B@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:15:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <25.2b8b923b.2a7d9594@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect > >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they > >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is > >the government's job to protect the public. > > Don't you mean "right"-wing? No, I mean left wing. Although the actions recommended are thoroughly selfish, the basis of the actions is that people are not responsible for their actions; ultimately, the government is responsible for all. And if businessmen leave it up to the government to differentiate between right and wrong, the government may very well end up being forced to do so. Ultimately, very left-wing aims. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 22:19:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 43250 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bDnd-0006jH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:19:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4CB9AF.E1A62707@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:20:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have > simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. No, it is not liberal; liberals believe that people should act according to their own sense of morality. It is the left wing who wishes to create situations that require that the government increase its level of power over the individual, to be the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 23:04:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 53829 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.f4.1f7f7715 (3310) for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:04:52 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Larry, My comment was slightly tongue in cheek -- thinking that this was a theosophical discussion group, not a political one. But from a political point of view, I think Bart, in his answer to my question and your (left/right addendium) comment, covered it pretty well. However, from a theosophical view, don't we consider the black magicians -- vide; the current materialist concepts behind corporate greed promulgated by business schools (such as the one at Harvard) -- as being the "left hand" or "sinister" path? Since they also serve the "right wing" (conservatives) I thought the misdirection implied through the misuse of such potent mantric words in different contexts was worth pointing out as food for thought... (Don't we all write our comments hopefully for the benefit of the lurkers on these lists? :-) Leon In a message dated 08/03/02 5:19:03 PM, llkingston2@juno.com writes: >Hi Leon, > >Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical >point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as >dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals >and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have >simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. > >Larry > >On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT leonmaurer@aol.com writes: >> >> In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >> >> >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect >> >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they >> >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is >> >the government's job to protect the public. >> >> Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of view. >> ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems >> that its typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical >> and non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric >> words. >> >> LHM >> From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 05:02:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 48964 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 12:02:43 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BD73A48044C for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:02:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001501c23bae$2090bd20$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool - a useable SYSTEM ? Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:56:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dennis and all, Dennis wrote the following about the "Unfinished Autobiography" by Alice A.= Bailey : "I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source." Well Dennis, then I am somewhat surprised, that you didn't read or print ou= t my email=20 August 1st 2002 here at Theos-talk. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7593 (email 7593) and the in the email linked article also posted at Theos-talk at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 (email 4389) or http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM (a newer versio= n) The article certainly mentions this Alice A. Bailey book. The following will maybe be of some help. I few days back I wrote the following in an email here at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) "Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work is really systematised at a level much higher than intellect as you know it. Any apparent systematisati= on is merely a working frame, concocted for the purpose of bringing the teachi= ng a little nearer to you. It does not have universal validity. The system is kn= own by the teacher and equally developed people, just as you know something so = well that you act in accordance with it inevitably. This work is natural, organi= c and changes form, not content, in accordance with the needs of the people, = the work and the teacher. What serves as a system in one phase of the work is n= ot a system in another." Question to be answered: So is the books of Bailey (and/or D.K.) a useable = system ?=20 Answer: Only up to a certain level.=20 Spiritual development should NOT be confused with self-indulgence or philos= ophical narcissism, or strange emotional ritualism - =E1 la Invocative kind= . Of course - It is allright, that the aspirant mean well. BUT, As HPB said let us keep a global perspective - i.e. not only a pro-wes= tern one.=20 Let us - in the present Information Society and because of its existence -= teach each other the present wrongs and the rights of the western culture = and its branches. Let us not avoid doing that ! A NEW WORLD ORDER governed by a inadequate Theosophical policy, which are i= gnorant of the TRUTH (and not the Televised one etc.) about the Middle East= will not be an ideal perspective - I bet Christ will roll and turn in his = grave along with Kidhr, Krishna, ParaBrahman and etc....=20 from M. Sufilight with tears and all... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Dennis Kier" To: Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool >=20 > And, for still another "unbiased" perspective, try reading the THE > UNFINISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ALICE A. BAILEY, Pub. Lucis Publishing Co, > New York, 1951. >=20 > (by, Alice A. Bailey) >=20 > This is an interesting book, and tells of the relationship with D.K. > from her perspective, and in addition, it is available on CD, and > on-line at www.lucistrust.org >=20 > I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source. >=20 > Dennis >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian McRae" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:39 AM > Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool >=20 >=20 > > > "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that > > > Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: > > > > A question, Daniel. > > > > Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice > Bailey ? > > She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" > > > > I have often seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone > know > > what connection she had with the TS ? >=20 > She worked in the Hollywood (California) branch of the TS, and met her > husband there, and was contacted by D.K. there for a series of books, > (so she says). >=20 > > > > Orra Best, > > Ian > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From llkingston2@juno.com Sun Aug 04 05:04:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 12:04:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 65205 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 12:04:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 12:04:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 12:04:21 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4B/D+2Cwb0D0REe/uNwVvEg=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9C9EH2B; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 08:03:00 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:53:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Message-ID: <20020804.075320.-745797.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-9,11-30 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Sorry Bart, but I'm more confused now than I was before. Is it that you are using a purist definition of liberalism and those modern politicians who classify themselves as liberal, i.e. Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, etc, are really something else? They certainly advocate more government. I have always been taught that liberals WERE left wing, and pro government control. Conservatives are the ones who advocate less government and more individual responsibility. What am I missing here? Larry On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:20:47 -0400 Bart Lidofsky writes: > No, it is not liberal; liberals believe that people should > act > according to their own sense of morality. It is the left wing who > wishes > to create situations that require that the government increase its > level > of power over the individual, to be the ultimate arbiter of right > and > wrong. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 05:58:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 12:58:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 84058 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 12:58:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 12:58:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 12:58:40 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9642126370B for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:58:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001501c23bb5$f17cc300$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <12d.15290c36.2a7d8f3b@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:53:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all, Here is a view to consider: I few days back I wrote the following, which is an excerpt, in an email her= e at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) "Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work is really systematised at a level much higher than intellect as you know it. Any apparent systematisati= on is merely a working frame, concocted for the purpose of bringing the teachi= ng a little nearer to you. It does not have universal validity. The system is kn= own by the teacher and equally developed people, just as you know something so = well that you act in accordance with it inevitably. This work is natural, organi= c and changes form, not content, in accordance with the needs of the people, = the work and the teacher. What serves as a system in one phase of the work is n= ot a system in another." The work is of course spiritual. It is ongoing right now. It is covering co= smos as a whole. It is imense and also beyond ordinary or lower thoughts. Let us stay tuned for Cosmic Consciousness. Why deny your self and others wisdom ? The saying goes: The initiated walks in the world, but is not of the world. On could say that to ParaBrahman or the Initiated "the Fundamental principl= es" is only an inferior or lower kind. To to base ones view ONLY on these "= Fundamental principles" - would certianly be wrong OR of a lower level. Let us transcend time and space and see truth as it really is. Nothing highlights the non-spiritual but very social character of many rela= tionships so much as the need for contact, association, relationship. Peopl= e feel that they should be near someone of sanctity; and that they should i= mpart their bleesing to others; that some sort of frequent or constant cont= act has some spiritual dimension. The fact is, of course, that there are times and places where it is more i= mportant for people with mutual spiritual interests to be apart rather than= togehter. Those who understand this and have experienced it are the spirit= ual people. Those who have not, are part of a sociological phenomenon: herd= ing. The origin of this desire to herd together is not far to seek. Those who l= ead the herding are inadequate: they feel doubts and discomfort when they a= re not in contact with like-minded people. Those who flock at the behest of= the 'herders' are equally inadequate. But, in their case, there is more ho= pe - that they can be taken to a position where they no longer have to be d= ependent upon others; where their inadequacy is cured, rather than being re= affirmed by herding. To be social in an organisation with certain so-called core-teachings, whic= h quite often bases the social behavoir mainly on emotions - is only an act= ivity of a limited kind. A great number of so-called spiritual organisations or some of their branch= es of today only reaches the level I tend to call "Tee, talk and emotional = feelings".=20 =20 from=20 M. Sufilight with happy eeh...motions... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? >=20 > In a message dated 08/03/02 12:29:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com (Bart Lidofsky= )=20 > writes: >=20 > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >> Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or=20 > propositions > > > > The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. >=20 > How so? In my experience, I have met Kabbalists and Sufis that disagree w= ith=20 > each other as well as with Theosophists on a number of interpretive level= s.=20=20 > But, I never heard of any logical disagreement on "fundamental principles= ."=20 >=20 > So, in your view, which one or more of the three theosophical proposition= s=20 > might they disagree with? Do they disagree with the Absolute, ineffable,= =20 > divine origin of all "life" in the Cosmos? Do they disagree with the=20 > fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity? Do they disagree with the=20 > experiential purpose and evolution of Man's spiritual soul through all th= e=20 > kingdoms of nature to eventually return to the universal Spirit or Godhea= d?=20 >=20 > And, if there is such a disagreement -- would you kindly explain what are= the=20 > "fundamental principles" or "truths" that they base their teachings on? = =20 >=20 > LHM >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Aug 04 06:05:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 13:05:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 92557 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 13:05:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 13:05:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 13:05:47 -0000 Received: from pool0211.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.211] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bL4B-0001Ar-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 06:05:04 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Contents of SD Volume I, II & III in latter part of 1886 thru mid 1887 -- to 1897. Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 06:02:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 4 2002 Re: S D in MSS and in final print in 1888 ( Vols. I & II), & differences S D Vol. III MSS and its fate (1897) Dear Dan: Thank you for a fine progressive narration -- it as I remember it. S D MSS, and its progression (writing, fragmented referral to Adyar, transport to England, consideration of its organization by the Keightleys, final arrangement, and P B's agreement thereto) as narrated by you, is, as I have read it, and was aware of. But my observation is that while individual descriptions are made by the writers, the actual Indexed contents of materials then sent, carried and reviewed, are not given. We therefore make guesses that the materials referred to, have a close relation (if not identity) to what we now have in print. So, finally, we all have to depend on the printed versions as we now have them, and we assume that the writers are also referring to the same things, though it is possible, they may not. Then, in 1888, we see put into print: Two (2) volumes of The SECRET DOCTRINE, and then, in 1897 we have the publication that Annie Besant edited, and which SHE titled the: THIRD VOLUME of The SECRET DOCTRINE, as it stands in print before us. My only observation on Vols. I & II, is that right up to final proofing, H P B made "corrections and changes." As we do not have the various MSS and their alterations, we cannot trace those changes and have to guess at them from what is written by her and by various witnesses, who summarized their observations as you narrate and record. The final arrangement of material for Vols. I and II ( as published in 1888 ) did not include, except by fragmentary and scattered references, information about "Great Occultists." [What actually happened to this MSS, said to be "ready" as a 3rd volume, and what happened to the partial MSS of the FOURTH Volume (said to be partly ready), is a guess for all of us.] To my knowledge, while some material (MSS, etc., ) kept by H P B for this 3rd volume had been made ready, no consecutive MSS for publication was finalized. It is probable that some portions of this, or as some surmise: "rejected MSS," were in H P B's drawers. But there again, with reference to the brief information to be fund in The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, and other articles and letters by H P B, the material to be found therein (in the printed version of the THIRD Volume) does not begin to cover what might have been made available. The consecutive MSS from all accounts, seems to have vanished, or been destroyed, as my informant told me (second or third hand, hear-say evidence). For example: We do not find much concentrated information given on "Great Occultists" from Europe, the Mid-East (Zoroastrian, Chaldean, Babylonian, Jewish) and Egypt (hierophants and adepts), --- historical and pre-historical (as the significant individuals active as early Christians, Gnostics and Neo-Platonists). There were a significant number of predecessors (European) to H P B (from the 14th Century on) to be included in a narration of the efforts made by the Great Lodge every century following his death, under the instructions of Tsong-ka-pa, to "enlighten the white barbarians." (There is a tentative list of these made up from some of the references to them made in Theosophical literature.) The history of Hindu, Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian, (the line and sequence of Avatars, Adepts, Mahatmas, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas), Iranian ( the Line of Zoroasters, the Java-Alhim) and American (North, Central and South: Hiawatha, Manco Capac, Manco Upanaqui, Mama Occello, etc..) is hardly touched on. One might guess that those would have received attention if an inclusive historical account were to be offered. But what would be most needed, are the connecting links that the Great Lodge could have provided through her of the relations between them. In a word, the unity of teaching would become more apparent. The basis of all religions would then be clear: a single teaching of the arts, sciences, and daily conduct, having the immortality of the Spirit/soul, Karma, reincarnation, and above all, the perfectibility of all Men, as a base. The universal similarity of ethics and morals taught would be clearer. But these, any good student of comparative religions can secure through a careful study of primary documents (if available), even now. Much of that has been mangled by translators and interested historians who provide their slanted or biased views, and leave us to disentangle the reasonable and common-sense from the dogmatic, the divisive, and the sectarian. H P B's MSS of the THIRD VOLUME as originally described (if it had been published), would, I think, have largely cleared this up. (A few years ago there was made a tentative list (chronology) was made from theosophical literature of references to such Adepts and/or efforts to bring the wisdom of Theosophy to the attention of various peoples all over the world in various eras. It makes interesting reading.) What Annie Besant drew together seems to be a hodgepodge of articles, and other materials but none of these completely add up to the descriptions made by H P B (of the next volume (3rd) of the SECRET DOCTRINE) as is to be found in either the S D (vols. I and II) or, in her articles. That's the best I can make of the matter. If you do not already have the two chronological lists, I will try to find a copy and send it to you. I thought I might have sent you a copy some years ago. Best wishes, Dallas. ================= -----Original Message----- From: danielhcaldwell [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:19 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Contents of SD Volume I in latter part of 1886 thru mid 1887 Ian and Dallas et al, I would appreciate your comments on the following material that I have compiled to try to elucidate the problem surrounding the contents of volume III of the SD. Daniel ------------------------------------------------------------ -------- In a letter dated September 23, 1886, H.P. Blavatsky in Ostende wrote to Colonel Henry S. Olcott in India: I send you the MSS. of Secret Doctrine.....Now I send only 1st volume of Introduct. Section.... There are in the 1st Introductory Vol. Seven Sections or Chapt. § and 27 Appendices, several App. attached to every Section from l to 6, etc. Now all this will make either more or at any rate one volume and it is not the S.D. but a Preface to it.... (The Theosophist, March 1925, p. 789.) But the manuscript of the first volume was not sent to India at that time. The reason for this delay is described in a later letter from Blavatsky to Olcott. (See HPB's letter dated Oct. 21, 1886 and published in the March,1925 issue of The Theosophist on p. 787.) Finally sometime around Nov. 20th of the same year, Countess Wachtmeister on a trip to London mailed the manuscript of volume I to Henry Olcott in India. In Olcott's handwritten diary for Friday, Dec. 10, 1886, one finds the following excerpt: "Recd. MSS of Secret Doctrine, Vol. I. . . . " In his Annual Address delivered to the T.S. Convention at Adyar, Madras, India on December 27, 1886, Colonel Olcott mentioned the receipt of this Volume I manuscript: "The MSS. of the first volume has been sent me. . . .It will gratify you to learn that it more than maintains her reputation for learning and literary ability. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January 1887, pp. xx-xxi.) The next day in another address given at the opening of the Adyar Libary, Olcott also spoke of the recently received volume I manuscript: ". . . the entire MSS. of the first of five volumes that Madame Blavatsky is now writing upon the Secret Doctrine, is in my hands; and that even a cursory reading has satisfied better critics than myself [T. Subba Row] that it will be one of the most important contributions ever made to philsophical and scientific scholarship. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January 1887, pp. xlvii. Sometime around December 15, after receiving the manuscript of Volume I of the SD, Olcott wrote Madame Blavatsky telling her that the manuscript had been received and that Subba Row had been reading the manuscript. On January 4, 1887, H.P.B. wrote replying to Olcott's letter: "I am glad Subba Row likes my Proem. But it is only as Preliminary Vol. and the real original doctrine is in the volume [two] I will send you when Fawcett comes on the 20th and then he will take it to England himself --- for I cannot send it or rather insure it from here [in Ostende]." The manuscripts of Volumes I and II as mentioned above are preserved in the Adyar Archives. The partial contents of Volume I can be seen in the following table: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm Volume II of this manuscript consists of the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan on Cosmogony and HPB's Commentaries thereon. Only a few pages of Volume III is extant in the Adyar Archives. This third "volume" deals with the Evolution of Humanity. So from a careful reading and study of HPB's own letters in 1886 and 1887 as well as from a careful analysis of the contents of the extant SD manuscript in the Adyar Archives, one sees that in early 1887 the SD was divided into the following three volumes: Volume I: A Historical Overview of Occultism and its Adepts, etc. [Note: HPB's letters written in 1886 given several descriptions of the contents of this volume. See http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiipt3.htm Compare these descriptions with the actual extant contents of the first volume. See http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm ] Volume II: Evolution of Cosmos as found in the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan Volume III: Evolution of Man (Humanity) as found in further Stanzas of Dzyan Some months later when H.P. Blavatsky had moved to London, Bertram and Archibald Keightley had the privilege of going through the SD manuscript. Here are Bertram's relevant comments: "A day or two after our arrival at Maycot [in May, 1887], H.P.B. placed the whole of the so far completed MSS. in the hands of Dr. [Archibald] Keightley and myself....We both read the whole mass of MSS.--a pile over three feet high--most carefully...and then, after prolonged consultation, faced [HPB]...with the solemn opinion that the whole of the matter must be rearranged on some definite plan...." "Finally we laid before her a plan, ...." ". . . instead of making the first volume to consist, as she had intended, of the history of some great Occultists, we advised her to follow the natural order of exposition, and begin with the Evolution of Cosmos, to pass from that to the Evolution of Man, then to deal with the historical part in a third volume treating of the lives of some great Occultists. . . .This plan was laid before H.P.B., and it was duly sanctioned by her. . . . " [Quoted in Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine, by Countess Constance Wachtmeister et al., Quest edition, 1976, pp. 78-9.] So as Bertram Keightley tells us, the order of the volumes of The Secret Doctrine was rearranged in mid-1887. Volume I became Volume III. AFTER the rearrangement in 1887, the volumes would have been listed as follows: Volume I: Evolution of Cosmos Volume II: Evolution of Man Volume III: History of Some Great Occultists In summary, the extant volume I of the SD manuscript preserved in the Adyar Archives is concrete evidence as to what was in volume I as of late 1886. An outline of that content can be seen in the table already given above and which I give again: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm This is the same material and volumes seen by Bertram Keighley several months later in London. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 07:03:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 14:03:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 10870 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 14:03:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 14:03:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 14:03:12 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 13D142629B8 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002501c23bbe$f531c5a0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: Subject: WRITING adn the works... Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:58:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all of you, The following could be given to students at Theosophical Schools - if they will benefit from it. Here is something on *** Writing *** ....If you have any experience of spiritual groups, you will know that too many people focus their attention on the teacher and not on the teaching. Indeed, this is such a frequent abuse that some people become completely fixated on a teacher, whether true or false. Even in the East, people mistake this phenomenon for sanctity, or for religious experience. Knowing this, many Sufis (hopefully also Theosophists ??) do not teach directly at all; much will depend upon the condition of their followers. It is therefore not uncommen for teachers to write or dictate teachings, which are ten read or read out. When, however indiviudals or groups of learners are able to concentrate upon the essence and not on the appearence or the presence of the teacher, meetings do take place. It is only recently in the West that psychological workers have discovered that the actual presence of someone supposed to be teaching produces a sense of awe, significance or religious devotion which is, of course, not the same as perceiving what is really there. from M. Sufilight with peace and love....and the time, the place, the people, the situation.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 07:06:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 14:06:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 18253 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 14:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 14:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 14:06:18 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 438952632D8 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:06:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002901c23bbf$6436cae0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: Subject: Reading spiritual books... Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:01:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all of you, The following could be given to students at Theosophical Schools - if they will benefit from it. Here is something on "*** Organisations, Books and superficial readings *** People read books, which affect them in various ways. They will admit that they cannot get the best out of a book if, say they are too young or inexperienced to know the words, or to understand what the author is talking about. But once they are adult, and accustomed to reading books, they will assume that they must be able to profit by the text in exactly the way in which the author intended. This is not bourne out of experience, and it is even unsound otherwise, being based upon an assuption for which there is NO proof. The way in which some books are written, and the purpose for which they are written, is only half understood by most people. The idea, for instance, that a book is designed to be read under certain circumstances, or different stages of development, is not well know to current cultures. If a book appears to be understandable, the reader will take it that it means just what he or she has been able to deduce it means. This is not, of course a correct assumption. Books of real developmental value can be read only under their own conditions. The teacher explains the way in which the book is to be read, and other things necessary for the current position of the student. Poeple very often recommend books to each other to read, without knowing about the inner content of the book or the fact that the book may in fact be highly technical contrivance, simply looking like an ordinary book. A book of abstruse philosophy, and in the East we have many, may merely cloak directions for carrying on various essential exercises, which are infinitely more precious thanthe intellectual content of the book. Again, people who are recommended books not infrequently are greatly moved by them emotionally. Experiment will readily show that a book on religion, given to someone who does not know how to read it for its specific directions, will merely move that person emotionally; either because the words or the phrases are such as to evoke emotion, or because of the person who gave them the book or the recommendation. These reactions are superficial, though they may appear to the ungenerate reader to be deep. Since the Middel Ages, when books minus the knowledge of how to use them became more plentiful, this problem has existed, and become more acute. The amusing thing is that we now have millions of books, in some of whose texts there is lurking the knowledge, the REAL knowledge, which the academician does not suspect. It is as if we had a rhymed telephone directory, thinking that the rhyme was the point, without knowing that at a certain time and place this book is of inestimable other, practical, value." (Almost taken verbatim from "The Commanding Self" by Idries Shah, d.1996. The same goes for the previous email on "Writing"). Now one could compare the above with Theosophical books, their content. Other books than what we more ordinarily call Theosophcial could or should of course also be considered. from M. Sufilight with peace and love....and the time, the place, the people, the situation.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 07:11:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 14:11:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 23355 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 14:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 14:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 14:11:25 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E653263D89 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:11:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003f01c23bc0$1b48a320$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:06:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dallas and all, Thanks - allright. from Sufilight with MeSh...or...M S... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "Morten Sufilight" Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 2:12 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] a= bout SD Vol. III > Aug 3 2002 >=20 > Dear M S >=20 > The letter from Subba Row is a bit long -- as most of his > writings are, so with your permission I will make some > extracts from it in the areas I thought were relevant. You > must remember this is a copy of a typewritten letter and --- > blessed be -- I can't find it. But I will search and when > found I will send it on. No. I remember -- I lent it to a > friend to read, and when it comes back I will copy parts of > it and send it on to you. >=20 > Dal >=20 > So be patient with me. >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Morten Sufilight > [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:09 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III >=20 >=20 > Hi Dallas and all of you, >=20 > What ? Interesting. >=20 > Dallas wrote: > "By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted > in > THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March > 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? > I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also > gives some of the rather strict interpretations of > discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.." >=20 > Can we have that letter emailed - online - Dallas or is it > to long ? >=20 > from > Sufilight with peace and love... >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 07:18:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 14:18:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 67297 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 14:18:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 14:18:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 14:18:27 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F7262633EE for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:18:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008d01c23bc1$16dffc60$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:13:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 (This is emailed for the second time some strange force appearently interfe= rred - and put an email from Larry into my email. One wonders why and who ?= ). Hi Dennis and all, Dennis wrote the following about the "Unfinished Autobiography" by Alice A.= Bailey : "I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source." Well Dennis, then I am somewhat surprised, that you didn't read or print ou= t my email=20 August 1st 2002 here at Theos-talk. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7593 (email 7593) and the in the email linked article also posted at Theos-talk at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 (email 4389) or http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM (a newer versio= n) The article certainly mentions this Alice A. Bailey book. The following will maybe be of some help. I few days back I wrote the following in an email here at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) "Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work is really systematised at a level much higher than intellect as you know it. Any apparent systematisati= on is merely a working frame, concocted for the purpose of bringing the teachi= ng a little nearer to you. It does not have universal validity. The system is kn= own by the teacher and equally developed people, just as you know something so = well that you act in accordance with it inevitably. This work is natural, organi= c and changes form, not content, in accordance with the needs of the people, = the work and the teacher. What serves as a system in one phase of the work is n= ot a system in another." Question to be answered: So is the books of Bailey (and/or D.K.) a useable = system ?=20 Answer: Only up to a certain level.=20 Spiritual development should NOT be confused with self-indulgence or philos= ophical narcissism, or strange emotional ritualism - =E1 la Invocative kind= . Of course - It is allright, that the aspirant mean well. BUT, As HPB said let us keep a global perspective - i.e. not only a pro-wes= tern one.=20 Let us - in the present Information Society and because of its existence -= teach each other the present wrongs and the rights of the western culture = and its branches. Let us not avoid doing that ! A NEW WORLD ORDER governed by a inadequate Theosophical policy, which are i= gnorant of the TRUTH (and not the Televised one etc.) about the Middle East= will not be an ideal perspective - I bet Christ will roll and turn in his = grave along with Kidhr, Krishna, ParaBrahman and etc....=20 from M. Sufilight with tears and all... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Dennis Kier" To: Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool >=20 > And, for still another "unbiased" perspective, try reading the THE > UNFINISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ALICE A. BAILEY, Pub. Lucis Publishing Co, > New York, 1951. >=20 > (by, Alice A. Bailey) >=20 > This is an interesting book, and tells of the relationship with D.K. > from her perspective, and in addition, it is available on CD, and > on-line at www.lucistrust.org >=20 > I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source. >=20 > Dennis >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian McRae" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:39 AM > Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool >=20 >=20 > > > "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that > > > Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: > > > > A question, Daniel. > > > > Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice > Bailey ? > > She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" > > > > I have often seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone > know > > what connection she had with the TS ? >=20 > She worked in the Hollywood (California) branch of the TS, and met her > husband there, and was contacted by D.K. there for a series of books, > (so she says). >=20 > > > > Orra Best, > > Ian > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From llkingston2@juno.com Sun Aug 04 07:19:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 14:19:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 47111 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 14:19:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 14:19:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 14:19:26 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4bCUgRaH2zjvB8dtxjDLxYA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9DG6RSW; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:18:34 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:09:19 -0400 Subject: Liberalism Message-ID: <20020804.100920.-785921.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,9-10,14-15,18-19,22-23 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Sometimes for the sake of brevity, I may sacrifice clarity also. So let me further expound on my understanding of liberalism. Prior to 1932, the word liberal had quite a different connotation than it does today. It once stood for laissez-faire economics and limited government. However, it was also a word that was little used in the U.S. It was FDR who redefined the word to denote advocacy of his New Deal programs and the Welfare State. At the time, Hoover was angered by Roosevelt's use of the word, but FDR one and the term stuck. In time, liberal politics took on new "wings," including the civil rights advocacy (racial integration forced by government, busing, affirmative action and quotas) and the environmental movement. This is modern liberalism. So when I ask Bart if he is using "liberal" in a purist sense, I am asking if he (and Leon) are harkening back to the pre-1932 definition. Or is it something else. And , Ian, my understanding is that Theosophy teaches that solutions to the world's problems are not to be found in politics. But that doesn't imply that Theosophists are anarchists! Larry ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sun Aug 04 09:27:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 16:27:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 81215 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 16:27:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 16:27:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 16:27:11 -0000 Received: from modem-1898.rhino.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.103.106] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17bODl-0000ew-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 17:27:10 +0100 Message-ID: <019a01c23bd4$32ea0be0$c1de883e@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Contents of SD Volume I in latter part of 1886 thru mid 1887 Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:29:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae >Ian and Dallas et al, >I would appreciate your comments on the following material that I have >compiled to try to elucidate the problem surrounding the contents of >volume III of the SD. >Daniel >In summary, the extant volume I of the SD manuscript preserved in the >Adyar Archives is concrete evidence as to what was in volume I as of >late 1886. An outline of that content can be seen in the table >already given above and which I give again: >http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm >This is the same material and volumes seen by Bertram Keighley >several months later in London. Hello Daniel, I cannot fault your logic. I agree with you that what was Vol I became Vol III. Are you saying that there is an existing manuscript of this Vol III preserved in the Adyar Archives ? That Vol III actually exists but has not been yet published ? If this is so, why did GRS Mead not refer to it ? This is the crucial question. We are looking for Vol III. If you are saying that it exists in Adyar then our quest is over. What I thought everyone was saying is lost, is not. It's in Adyar, but not yet published. Is this what you are saying ? Orra Best, Ian From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 04 11:25:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 18:25:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 35622 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 18:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 18:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 18:25:21 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bQ49-0005G2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:25:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4D71DF.457C04D4@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:26:39 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <20020804.075320.-745797.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > Sorry Bart, but I'm more confused now than I was before. Is it that you > are using a purist definition of liberalism and those modern politicians > who classify themselves as liberal, i.e. Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, > etc, are really something else? They certainly advocate more government. > I have always been taught that liberals WERE left wing, and pro > government control. Conservatives are the ones who advocate less > government and more individual responsibility. What am I missing here? Liberals are left of center, but not as far left as "left wing", just as conservatives are right of center, but not as much as "right wing" although a lot of left wingers call themselves "liberals" and a lot of right wingers call themselves "conservatives". Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 04 11:25:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 18:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 35672 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 18:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 18:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 18:25:39 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bQ4R-0005XW-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:25:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4D6DCC.C348E889@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:09:16 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > materialist concepts behind corporate greed promulgated by business schools > (such as the one at Harvard) -- as being the "left hand" or "sinister" path? > Since they also serve the "right wing" (conservatives) I thought the > misdirection implied through the misuse of such potent mantric words in > different contexts was worth pointing out as food for thought... (Don't we > all write our comments hopefully for the benefit of the lurkers on these > lists? :-) As the motto of the Perl language goes, there is more than one way to do it. And one can find greed and selfishness on both the political left and the political right, as well as people with altruistic motives. Unfortunately, the most selfish of those on the political left use emotions to overcome people's logic; they push the idea that if you don't agree with their methods, then you can't possibly agree with their goals. If you don't believe in giving money to hungry people for them to buy food, then, by that logic, you must believe that they should starve to death (as opposed to believing that, for example, you might just give them food). The altruistic right wing members do not believe that people should starve to death, but they DO believe that, when one gives help to those who choose not to help themselves, then one should do it in such a way that self-help is preferable, and for those who cannot help themselves, to attempt to put them into a position where they can. But those who choose the political right wing path for reasons of selfishness get all the press. And the most prominent representative of the right, Rush Limbaugh, is the hero of the selfish. The selfish representatives of the left tend to be less obvious. They tell you how good they are while stealing from you to pay for your own subjugation. Hillary Clinton wrote a thesis on methods of doing just that (and fought a battle to illegally keep it quiet). Unfortunately, it is the selfish who fight the hardest for power; that is the major flaw in the Communist system, which contains the inbuilt assumption that under Communism, selfishness doesn't exist. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 04 11:31:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 18:31:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 75171 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bQAR-0003kh-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:31:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4D7365.2698F5C2@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:33:09 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Liberalism References: <20020804.100920.-785921.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > So when I ask Bart if he is using "liberal" in a purist sense, I am > asking if he (and Leon) are harkening back to the pre-1932 definition. Or > is it something else. Post-1932. Frankly, post-1980's, where liberalism went from being in support of individual freedom to being against it. > And , Ian, my understanding is that Theosophy teaches that solutions to > the world's problems are not to be found in politics. But that doesn't > imply that Theosophists are anarchists! The problem with most political systems is that they work by applying a philosophy on a situation by situation basis, without the understanding that everything is interconnected to everything else. When a politician states that he or she believes in more money for education, for example, he or she neglects to state that the money has to come from somewhere, and which programs they intend to cut, or what sort of additional taxation they wish to impose. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Aug 04 13:29:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 20:29:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 29287 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 20:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 20:29:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 20:29:52 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.138.125f01d6 (30960) for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <138.125f01d6.2a7ee8ba@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:29:46 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/04/02 7:58:58 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk (M. Sufilight) writes: >The saying goes: The initiated walks in the world, but is not of the world. >One could say that to ParaBrahman or the Initiated "the Fundamental principles" >is only an inferior or lower kind. To base ones view ONLY on these >"Fundamental principles" - would certianly be wrong OR of a lower level. If the so called "Initiated" is one who has traveled the "theosophical path" toward the attainment of enlightenment -- then that initiate is a "Theosophist" who could not have gotten to where he can be one with Parabrahm unless he fully accepted, right from the start to the end of his path, the truths of the three Fundamental Principles of Theosophy -- as outlined by HPB in the PROEM of the SD. If the "fundamental principles" were of an "inferior or lower kind" (of truth, presumedly) -- then, the path of that "initiate" would have been a false one, and his/her being "not of the world" would be just a figment of his/her own imagination. Naturally, there is more to attaining enlightenment than solely a belief in the fundamental principles. It takes long and arduous study and effort as well as application over many lifetimes to achieve such a state of awakening as well as prove to oneself the validity of those principles. Therefore, they would always continue to stand as the rock upon which all knowledge of ultimate reality would rest -- without contradiction and with perfect consistency -- linking spirit with matter in one grand symmetry. If that were not so, then the "initiate" HPB, whom we follow as the "messenger of the Masters," would have changed them to suit a different understanding of the reality which those initiates, adepts and masters, as a group, experience... (And which we, as a group, must understand and experience similarly, if we are to ever become initiates, as well as side-by-side "workers" or "companions" in the common cause of attaining "Universal Brotherhood" for all of mankind -- the ultimate goal of the theosophical movement.) LHM From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Aug 04 13:39:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 20:39:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 55752 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 20:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 20:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 20:39:54 -0000 Received: from pool0227.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.227] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bSA7-0002ou-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:39:39 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:37:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001501c23bb5$f17cc300$fc92a483@opasia.dk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 4 2002 Dear Friends: We look on it as a system. Why? The universe looks on itself as CONSCIOUSNESS. In ancient times the expressions was used: SPIRIT UNIVERSAL desired to KNOW ITSELF. Whereupon it split itself into two parts: SPIRIT and PRIMORDIAL ROOT MATTER. Matter offered SPIRIT a mirror, But SPIRIT could not 'SEE' itself without INTELLIGENCE. The UNIVERSAL MIND sprang up as this LINK between the two as a multiple faceted tool of intelligence. Its range was made universal from sensation to INTUITIVE WISDOM. The process of the creation of this tool of intelligence is EGOIC EVOLUTION. Evolution is of three kinds: Spiritual, Intellectual, and physical. Each of these is a duality in itself for the sake of contrast. Harmony contrasts with discord; discord is a lapse from harmony. This is Law UNIVERSAL AND IMPERSONAL. This produced the "SIX PRINCIPLES" and over these the SPIRIT ever remains unmodified as the SEVENTH, the SUPERNAL. Man is a part of this evolutionary trend. To be an Ego implies the power of choice. Ego is choice; no choice, no Ego. --- For several weeks the question of exoteric vs. esoteric has been written about. Going to the dictionary we learn: EXOTERIC is that which is "external," "superficial," "suitable to be imparted to the public, hence readily comprehensible." We may say that anything expressed in words, on paper, etc.. becomes at that moment, exoteric. Theosophy does not recommend "exotericism." It recommends deep, impartial, free and conscientious search and application. The degree of study and application depends on the determination of the student to learn and evaluate. If this is applied then we realize that every such devotee has within him or herself the power to perceive that which is true and distinguish it from that which is not. If any one accepts and adopts "knowledge" without such personal effort and checking, then indeed we may say there is "blind faith" and "blind belief" present. In such case the danger of going astray is magnified. It is important for the devotee to identify in such cases the "cause" for such a dangerous decision and course. Is it impatience, is it ignorance, is it deliberate, is it carelessness ? Only the individual can answer these questions to himself. ESOTERIC is: "abstruse, designed for the circle of initiates," private, withheld from open expression." The language of medicine, pharmacy, chemistry, physics, mathematics, engineering, astronomy, atomic sciences, music, poetry, etc. may be said to be esoteric to the average person. Any one who reads and then studies ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE will emerge a much more learned, if not a wiser person. All information thereafter, will be viewed in that light that only an awakened Mind employs. It universalizes the person. It makes the many "secret" processes of Nature (the Deific Powers present in all things and events) clearer. But we live in an age where any one can study these, and learn and understand, using published texts that explain these systems and their laws, and so, such students may join the circle of "initiates" in those abstruse sciences. Individual effort and perseverance is the sole key. What does Theosophy offer? We could say it offers: A reasoned view of our Universe, world and our personal lives. Its reasoning appeals to that which we already know or suspect. What is the difference from the average view? It speaks of purpose and process, and posits choice and motive to actually be in each of us, the great magic initiators of every mind that desires to know WHY. Who desires to leave the surface of effects and delve into the CAUSES that make those effects possible. One might say for instance, that the "astral body" is esoteric to the physical body. The "astral" is used for everything beyond the physical. As on the physical plane we have earth, water, air and fire as divisions, so on the astral plane there are similar divisions The astral form that corresponds to the earth remains with the physical body and dissipates with it. The one that corresponds to water is that state of astral substance which forms the "kama-rupa" (after death of the physical); the one that corresponds to the air is the "manasic body;" and the one that corresponds to fire is the "seat of consciousness." (the Buddhi - Manas), or the body of the THINKER (the MONAD). Our earthly fire is the lowest grade of divine substance. ( from: A to Q, p. 248 ) (see also S D I 372, II 107-8). In The SECRET DOCTRINE , Vol. I p. 207-8, we are given a glimpse of a Great Teacher, an Avatar, who incarnates on Earth among mankind for the purpose of lighting the fire of Mind. In SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp 272-3 we are given a view of the source of our Wisdom, and the proves whereby those who "taught" our present Race (the fifth) learned before teaching. This inspires us with the information of the continuity of the process, the scheme, and the material to be learned and applied. It is not exclusive, but all may come and learn.. If we turn to SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I 267 (top) We learn that The SECRET DOCTRINE teaches HISTORY. And periodically, through the pages of the 2 volumes, we find H P B reminding us of this fact. Perhaps we ought t make an abstract of these statements and, joining the together, make for ourselves a chronology with which to measure the evolution of which we are the growing tip at this time. (The table of eras, Kalpas, Manvantaras, Yugas, etc... given in S D II 68-70 is also valuable to keep in mind.) Applied to the teachings of the Kaballa and the Rosicrucians, as also to the Hindu Vedas and Puranas, we find in SECRET DOCTRINE II pp 235-251 a survey of the infusion of consciousness into the developing forms of mankind -- and get some idea of the nature of the Personages and High Entities responsible for this education which now, we call "evolution." [ H P B will be found to speak at some length of these in several articles: THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS -- H P B Articles III p. 169, THE ROOTS OF RITUALISM IN CHURCH AND MASONRY III 203, THE KABALAH AND THE KABALISTS III 235, STAR-ANGEL WORSHIP IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH III 401 TIBETAN TEACHINGS III 337 THE HISTORY OF A PLANET [ VENUS - LUCIFER ] III 376 In the course of the past weeks the nature and influence of the Moon has been spoken of. The various kingdoms coming over to the earth chain (see S D I 152-182) would remain just what they were on the moon, if it were not for the beings who have become perfected spiritually, intellectually, and physically, and who guide the whole evolution. They map out the field as such, as it were. In the first Round we may see: the lower kingdoms begin their work, with no connection between them, and no touch with the higher beings. They are all working for themselves, on their own basis. Then comes the next Rounds and the whole scheme changes. It is brought into tune, through the Forms of the Higher Beings. When once all the kingdoms have become amalgamated, then comes solidification, and the beginning of the general earth cycle....the seven classes of beings who deserted the moon as a worked-out planet, so far as they were concerned, had their own organic forms, and carried forward the type of humanity. They represented the humanity of the moon, and the highest expression, according to that class, and all the other classes present there (the "lower kingdoms" of the moon). The seven classes work first each in its own way, that is, there is a separation into sub-classes; then, with the guidance of the Higher Classes, they come to work together, that is, there is a gradual amalgamation. Finally there comes Perceptive differentiation, that is, each to its own class again, plus all it has gained from the other classes. Thus Consciousness progresses, by contact with others, and spreading the knowledge of the whole.... Masters declare there is nothing "unconscious," and matter may be called "inorganic" only in the sense that it does not have the same organs of perception which other life has.-- a power of thought and action possessed by the higher kingdoms. ( extracts from A to Q pp. 198-9 ) It is hoped this may prove of some use, Best wishes, Dallas ================================= -----Original Message----- From: M S Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:54 AM To Subject: Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Hi L and all, Here is a view to consider: I few days back I wrote the following, which is an excerpt, in an email at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) "Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work is really systematised at a level much higher than intellect as you know it. Any apparent systematisation is merely a working frame, concocted for the purpose of bringing the teaching a little nearer to you. It does not have universal validity. The system is known by the teacher and equally developed people, just as you know something so well that you act in accordance with it inevitably. This work is natural, organic and changes form, not content, in accordance with the needs of the people, the work and the teacher. What serves as a system in one phase of the work is not a system in another." The work is of course spiritual. It is ongoing right now. It is covering cosmos as a whole. It is immense and also beyond ordinary or lower thoughts. Let us stay tuned for Cosmic Consciousness. Why deny your self and others wisdom ? The saying goes: The initiated walks in the world, but is not of the world. On could say that to ParaBrahman or the Initiated "the Fundamental principles" is only an inferior or lower kind. To base ones view ONLY on these "Fundamental principles" - would certainly be wrong OR of a lower level. Let us transcend time and space and see truth as it really is. Nothing highlights the non-spiritual but very social character of many relationships so much as the need for contact, association, relationship. People feel that they should be near someone of sanctity; and that they should impart their blessing to others; that some sort of frequent or constant contact has some spiritual dimension. The fact is, of course, that there are times and places where it is more important for people with mutual spiritual interests to be apart rather than together. Those who understand this and have experienced it are the spiritual people. Those who have not, are part of a sociological phenomenon: herding. The origin of this desire to herd together is not far to seek. Those who lead the herding are inadequate: they feel doubts and discomfort when they are not in contact with like-minded people. Those who flock at the behest of the 'herders' are equally inadequate. But, in their case, there is more hope - that they can be taken to a position where they no longer have to be dependent upon others; where their inadequacy is cured, rather than being reaffirmed by herding. To be social in an organisation with certain so-called core-teachings, which quite often bases the social behavior mainly on emotions - is only an activity of a limited kind. A great number of so-called spiritual organisations or some of their branches of today only reaches the level I tend to call "Tee, talk and emotional feelings". from M. S with happy eeh...motions... CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Aug 04 13:39:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 20:39:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 27248 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 20:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 20:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 20:39:55 -0000 Received: from pool0227.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.227] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bSAI-0002ou-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:39:51 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Re: Sum humor... Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:37:35 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aug 4, 2002 Re: Karma of destruction and war -- vs -- PEACE Dear Friends: Theosophy speaks of two kinds of desires and desires, which, make for our life-aims, usually. 1. The Personal which are usually very selfish. (It was the value of these I was questioning.) 2. The General, universal, characterized by generosity, brotherhood, and a deliberate disregard of any sectarianism, national bias, or anger, revenge, envy, spite, etc -- which all tend to make the horrors of our lives more prominent and more terrible. These make for the terrorism and the feuds that permit killing and injuring of unknown people all because some few thin k that a group or a race, or a religion, or a nationality is responsible for their condition of poverty, need, or suffering. That now has grasped the imagination and amplified the fears of millions. And the desire to retaliate on any one is made prominent. In so doing we just add horror to horror and the super-horror never finally solves anything. When Nobel first developed TNT he made the discovery public because he thought that the horror of such an explosive if made available to all, would cause wars to cease. That did not happen and wars only became more destructive. Then, when the sphere of warfare was taken out of the trenches, put into the air and made to rain death and destruction on innocent people, it was hoped by those who made this possible that those people, so unfairly oppressed, would prevail on their governments to cease war and become subjects to the aggressors. It worked the other way. There is a lesson in this. Of course in the present time, the =93atom=94 and the =93Hydrogen=94 bombs hold the same kind of deterrent. Their use on populated areas remains to this time a dark stain on world history. It was inexcusable. The power of the =93bombs=94 could have bee demonstrated on a unpopulated area. If we are at core immortal beings in SPIRIT and in SOUL, then these horrors as well as our loves and aspirations are probably going to follow us from life to life until such time as we understand and see them for what they are. Then it is hoped we will develop the wisdom to perceive that while bodies can be destroyed, the immortal spirit remains, and Karma the law of harmony will give us in the future the kind of experience (good or bad) which we force on others. What will be preferred: Brotherhood or paid and suffering ? But, we are always choosers, are we not ? even the choice to do nothing is also a CHOICE. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: w s Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:58 AM To: Subject: Re: Sum humor... Dear N , There is truth in what you say, money, power and ease, isnt it all pointless since we all drop dead in the end? But your are speaking in general, becuase in reality most people might gain ease,power and wealth but it might not be what they initially seek. What they feel is a need to achieve, to have accomplished something in their lives. When you have achieved great succes in what ever you did, then towards the end of your life you will feel thouroughly satisfied and have peace of mind, but only if you did good works and gave a lot to the community. Would you feel proud of your life and all you have accomplished if you just whiled away playing the guitar,siesta, fiesta, freinds and all that? If however you gained power and wealth through evil means, then boy you're gonna have a lot of mental problems when you get old. One who has acheived a lot through good means and gave back alot to the world won't worry much. He/She would think:" whatever happens, happens", since they are SATISFIED with themsleves and the life they lived. Those with power, money and ease are never really satisfied and worry too much about what comes next, to the point that it drives them mad. Besides, whatever prophets,preists, or sheiks try to preach they do so for the good of humanity. One does not loose much in beleiving in God and the afterlife. My dear people, you have nothing to lose. On the countrary, such beliefs can actually enhance lives, and three quarters of the worlds population prove it. Its becoming quite popular to add good quotes in these letters so here's one: To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false freinds; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better, wether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemd social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeded. -Ralph Waldo Emerson CUT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 16:01:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 23:01:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 16621 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 23:01:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 23:01:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 23:01:07 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BE585EE1BC for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:01:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c23c0a$1a5c6ec0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <138.125f01d6.2a7ee8ba@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 00:56:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all, Well Leon we are not really disagreeing, at least I don't see it so. But, my point is, that it is not so easy to make any proofs - especially sp= iritual or theosophical ones - in physical writing. Just like the astral vo= ices can be misleading, so can the physical writings in emails. It is not easy to make any proofs because of the of the '7 keys' (The Secre= t Doctrine and elsewhere) always being used to a certain degree, and the ne= ed for - the necessary Spiritual experience of the reality behind the teach= ings of the wisdom tradition and I here include some - if not most? - of HP= B's teachings (on all 7 levels, not only the physical ones), because the re= ader can't really prove anything by reasoning alone - or the so- called pro= of will be of a highly limited kind.=20 In the world of duality it is always possible to raise a view opposite the = written. - It seems important how the reader reacts on a discussion on theo= sophy or the Wisdom Tradition - and not only who is right or wrong in the d= ebate.=20 So you see Leon my point is - that The below intention is allright. But if misunderstood, then it is not. Communication is easy and difficult at the same time. There are as many paths to enlightenment as there are souls. Not everyone f= ollows the - 'dead letter' teachings - which some Theosophical schools of t= oday have difficulties to avoid. For instance - are some people Sufis (Middle Eastern spiritualists or follo= wers of the wisdom tradition) and follow a quite different pattern than the= lower kinds of dead letter Theosophical teachings. Different languages and= cultures sometimes makes different kinds of spiritual teachings. Theosophy is - Experience - more than it is based on 'fundamental principle= s' written in english.=20 Right ? And I can see that I agree a lot with Dallas in his latest email on the sam= e issue. The proces towards enlightenment can be fast, and is not necessarily slow. = Why think slow ? Think fast. And think patience. And think intensity. That = is much better. Positivity is better than negative thoughts like - it takes a long time to = become enlightened. Havn't anyone heard of the Doctrine of Sudden enlightenment ? Some of the V= edanta Advaitins use it. What does Theosophy offer ? Many newcomers are just offered a sort of New Bible to read : "The Secret D= octrine". No wonder, that we have the present very confused situation on this planet. The students should learn, that there are many theosophical 'bibles' out th= ere. Some are good, some not - and that it depends on the right timing, the= right place, the right situation etc. for the reading, which one is good ! And a great number of the REAL spiritual high quality writers wern't member= s of The Theosophical Society or any of the offshots of it ! That must be a surprise to the Orthodox Theosophists, with their bedtime pe= t - The Secret Doctrine. HPB has not been the only messenger. I bet that for instance Martin Luther King jr. had a message. But when will= people start listening ? Mother Teresa also had a message. They went with = Christ. The Secret Doctrine is important, but not that important. Well, that is my = view. Emotional reactions can be important. But the ought to be controlled. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? >=20 > In a message dated 08/04/02 7:58:58 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk (M.= =20 > Sufilight) writes: >=20 > >The saying goes: The initiated walks in the world, but is not of the wor= ld. > >One could say that to ParaBrahman or the Initiated "the Fundamental=20 > principles" > >is only an inferior or lower kind. To base ones view ONLY on these=20 > >"Fundamental principles" - would certianly be wrong OR of a lower level. >=20 > If the so called "Initiated" is one who has traveled the "theosophical pa= th"=20 > toward the attainment of enlightenment -- then that initiate is a=20 > "Theosophist" who could not have gotten to where he can be one with Parab= rahm=20 > unless he fully accepted, right from the start to the end of his path, th= e=20 > truths of the three Fundamental Principles of Theosophy -- as outlined by= HPB=20 > in the PROEM of the SD.=20=20 >=20 > If the "fundamental principles" were of an "inferior or lower kind" (of=20 > truth, presumedly) -- then, the path of that "initiate" would have been a= =20 > false one, and his/her being "not of the world" would be just a figment o= f=20 > his/her own imagination.=20=20 >=20 > Naturally, there is more to attaining enlightenment than solely a belief = in=20 > the fundamental principles. It takes long and arduous study and effort a= s=20 > well as application over many lifetimes to achieve such a state of awaken= ing=20 > as well as prove to oneself the validity of those principles. Therefore,= =20 > they would always continue to stand as the rock upon which all knowledge = of=20 > ultimate reality would rest -- without contradiction and with perfect=20 > consistency -- linking spirit with matter in one grand symmetry.=20=20 >=20 > If that were not so, then the "initiate" HPB, whom we follow as the=20 > "messenger of the Masters," would have changed them to suit a different=20 > understanding of the reality which those initiates, adepts and masters, a= s a=20 > group, experience... (And which we, as a group, must understand and=20 > experience similarly, if we are to ever become initiates, as well as=20 > side-by-side "workers" or "companions" in the common cause of attaining=20 > "Universal Brotherhood" for all of mankind -- the ultimate goal of the=20 > theosophical movement.)=20=20 >=20 > LHM >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 04 16:28:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 23:28:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 83458 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 23:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 23:28:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 23:28:37 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bUnc-0005pp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 16:28:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4DB8F2.3652A0F7@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:29:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? References: <12d.15290c36.2a7d8f3b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Sorry for taking this long to answer. I think that, while there might be general agreement with your reinterpretations of the principles, the disagreement would be with Blavatsky's statement, particularly of the third principle (humanity going through mineral and vegetable states, for example). Bart Lidofsky leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 08/03/02 12:29:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com (Bart Lidofsky) > writes: > > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > >> Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or > propositions > > > > The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. > > How so? In my experience, I have met Kabbalists and Sufis that disagree with > each other as well as with Theosophists on a number of interpretive levels. > But, I never heard of any logical disagreement on "fundamental principles." > > So, in your view, which one or more of the three theosophical propositions > might they disagree with? Do they disagree with the Absolute, ineffable, > divine origin of all "life" in the Cosmos? Do they disagree with the > fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity? Do they disagree with the > experiential purpose and evolution of Man's spiritual soul through all the > kingdoms of nature to eventually return to the universal Spirit or Godhead? From llkingston2@juno.com Mon Aug 05 04:28:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 11:28:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 13823 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 11:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 11:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 11:28:17 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4rI06KjCXmrA0fb5Z2pwDRQ=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9FRTK96; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:28:14 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:18:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Message-ID: <20020805.071841.-753065.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-14,22-23,26-27 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:26:39 -0400 Bart Lidofsky writes: > > Liberals are left of center, but not as far left as "left > wing", just > as conservatives are right of center, but not as much as "right > wing" > although a lot of left wingers call themselves "liberals" and a lot > of > right wingers call themselves "conservatives". > > Bart Lidofsky > I see we are coming closer together in our understandings. I would agree with your positionings of modern liberal and conservative ideologies. However I would then say that to the left of liberals are the radicals and the the right of conservatives, the reactionaries. Both liberal and radical would be encompassed by the lift wing, which is everything left of center, including communists to the far left and likewise the right wing includes conservatives and reactionaries, with facsists positioned to the far right. All a matter of perspective, a guess. Sorry to everyone else for this political science dialogue. When I first jumped in I thought it was heading in the direction of a discussion of the right and left paths, white and black magic. Oh, well! Larry ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Aug 05 04:39:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 11:39:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 34708 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 11:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 11:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 11:39:03 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-48.look.ca ([216.154.45.143] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17bgC9-0006lf-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:38:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3D4E6500.42BC36EC@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:44:00 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re esoteric/exoteric re Dallas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Re the subject/defining of "esoteric/exoteric," Dallas wrote, in part: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> So <> . . . ? I'm tending to wonder about the kind of "esoteric/exoteric" sense that that "learn and evaluate" was (or might be?) meant in . . . Seems to me that there are various senses of "esoteric/exoteric," and if the distinction between "esoteric as experiential" and "esoteric as whatever else" isn't made, then, as I see it, confusion can result, and some people may get the impression that <>, without directly experiencing the "real esoteric," can somehow "meaningfully enough" replace the experiential esoteric. Yes, there may be "meaning enough" in some forms of <>, but I think that it might be generally helpful if a clearer distinction is made between the forms of "esoteric" that are experiential, and those that are whatever else. Speculatively, Mauri From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Mon Aug 05 08:09:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 15:09:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 5018 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 15:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 15:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.171) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 15:09:09 -0000 Received: from modem-2966.leopard.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.155.150] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17bjTo-0005Ga-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:09:08 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01c23c92$7809dfc0$969b87d9@u0z2y2> To: "Theostalk" Subject: Some HPB Documents for sale Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:07:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae I have found this item up for auction on eBay. It is located in the USA, and it is just possible it may be of historical significance. Daniel ! Are you there !!! :o))) Just thought I'd let you know in case it gets missed. Go to: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1552801939 Still nearly three days to go on the auction. Orra Best, Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 05 12:04:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 19:04:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 99338 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 19:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 19:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 19:04:19 -0000 Received: from pool0655.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.228.145] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bn4Q-0002zJ-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:59:13 -0700 To: "Y. K. Julienne" , "Wisdom-World" , "William Quinn" , "Wil Windham" , "Wes Amerman" , "Warren Rickenbaugh" , "Warren Peese" , "Walt Edwards" , "Walid Shalabi" , "Vladimir Sova" , "Vijaya Chari Flagolet" , "Vijay & Gracy Kundaji" , "Victoria Prinz" , "Vic Hao-Chin" , "V. Ramakrishnan" , "Urmila Ramakrishna" , "ULT-SG-Uplands" , "ULT-SG-Malibu" , "ULT-SG-L.Beach" , "ULT-SG-Ashville" , "ULT-Phoenix" , "ULT-Paris" , "ULT-New-York" , "ULT-Malmo" , "ULT-Los-Angeles" , "ULT-London" , "ULT-Lond.Ontario" , "ULT-Douala" , "ULT-Chennai" , "ULT-Bangalore" , "ULT-Antwerp" , "Ullessis F Abaya" , "U Nandodaya" , "TS-Camberley" , "Traci" , "Tony Maddock" , "Thomas A. Hodges" , "Theo-University-Press" , "Theos-World" , "Theos-Talk" , "Theosophy-Circle" , "THEOSOPHY" , "Terrie Halprin" , "T. C." , "Suzanne Hedley" , "Suryakant Parmar" , "Surrey Widdows" , "Steve R. Stubbs" , "Stella H" , "Sonia van Overbeek" , "Simon Grace" , "Shiv Kumar" , "Sheryl Paul" , "Shersy" , "Shawn Silvas" , "Samir Coussa" , "Russel Law" , "Rolando Lequeux" , "Rodolfo Guzman" , "Roberto F. Lupercio" , "Richard Taylor" , "Richard Heltzel" , "Richard Grossman" , "Reginald" , "Reed Carson" , "Redrosarian" , "Ramchandran M." , "Quinn Allen" , "PlanetX" , "Pierre Wouters" , "Phyllis Ryan" , "Phantom" , "Peter Merriott" , "Peter Bernin" , "Pete Wouters" , "Persy B. Munshi" , "Penny Wallace" , "Pat Tidmore" , "Pat Reda" , "Odette Rouget" , "Nina Folknn" , "Nils Hansson" , "Neatte Kaire" , "Myrra Lee" , "Murrray Stentiford" , "Morten Sufilight" , "Mjjaw1" , "Miluka & Navarre Matlovsky" , "Miles & Jade" , "Mika P" , "Michele Lidofsky" , "Mic Forster" , "Mert Koraca" , "Mauri Hart" , "Mary McGuiness" , "Martin Liebermnan" , "Mark Mees" , "Mark Lamarre" , "Mark Kusek" , "Mark Griggs" , "Marilyn Whitney" , "Maria Konstan Toulaki" , "Marcus J. Ortiz" , "Maraoftherose" , "M.K.R. Ramadoss" , "Louis" , "Linda Smith" , "Leota Shimabukura" , "Leota" , "Leon Maurer" , "Lee Donnelly" , "Learningtree" , "Larry Kolts" , "Larry Kolts" , "L. R. Andrews" , "Kenneth Small" , "Kenneth Shaw" , "Ken Malkin" , "Kazimir Majorinc" , "Katinka Hesselink" , "Karen Borges" , "Kamaria Finch" , "Kamal Kothari" , "Julien Maclou" , "Joyce A. Word" , "Joseph Rudison" , "Joseph Martin" , "Joseph Long" , "Joseph Fulton" , "John Vorstemans" , "John Lester" , "John Fossa" , "John Faulkner" , "John E. Mead" , "John Beers" , "John & Laura Gray" , "Joao Campos" , "JoAnn Dunn" , "Jo Burchell" , "Jim Rodak" , "JIM 2SAL Colbert" , "Jerry Ekins" , "Jef King" , "Jean-Louis Siemons" , "J'ason Yessaid" , "Janice Wellman" , "James Santucci" , "Jacqui Callis" , "J. Riegg" , "J. P. Deveney" , "J R Ragel" , "Ian McRae" , "I Harling" , "Hiltz" , "Harry Tyldsley" , "H. Dantzler" , "Gregory Tillett" , "Greg Gourlay" , "Gopi" , "Gita, Dominique, Shanti ESMIEU" , "Gilda Cello" , "Gerald Schueler" , "George Sanders" , "George Baird" , "Geoffrey FARTHING" , "Garrett Riegg" , "Gail Stevenson" , "Gabriel Blechman" , "G. Schuller" , "Fred Heltzel" , "Frank Reichtmeyer" , "Frances Druckerman" , "FOHAT" , "Fernando de Freitas" , "Felipe Becker" , "Fadi Mansoor" , "Eugene Hurtienne" , "Eugene Carpenter" , "Estelle Anshen" , "Ernie & Rogelle Pelletier" , "Elmore Giles,Jr." , "Eldon Tucker" , "DULCYONE" , "Dr. Caren Elin" , "Dorothy Lord" , "Donald Bester" , "Don Rodolfo" , "Dominique & Jonathan Colbert" , "Dick Slusser" , "Diane Kaylor" , "Dennis Kier" , "David Roef" , "David Grossman" , "Darren & Helen" <23@granite.net.au>, "Daniel J. Haugas" , "Daniel Hughes" , "Daniel Caldwel" , "Dale Dazevedo" , "Cuttersail" , "Clive Culbertson" , "Clara" , "Christina Karloff" , "Chris Cunningham" , "Chris" , "Cheryl Frank" , "Charlie \(Mary Lynne\) Mlhallot" , "Carolyn Van-Horne" , "Carl Tort" , "Carl" , "Carey Amerman" , "Bruce F Macdonald" , "Brian Scott" , "Bob Waxman" , "BN-STUDY" , , "Beryl & Norman Lawson" , "Bee Brown TS-NZ" , "Bart Lidovsky" , "Barbara Coster" , "Barbara Barnes" , "Aspasia Popadomichiloki" , "Arturo Carvajal" , "Antonova Galena" , "Anthony Kang" , "Annie" , "Angie" , "Andrea Baylus" , "Anand Kundaji" , "Amsec" , "Amedeo" , "Allen Mussehl" , "Allen Kelly" , "Alice Townley" , "Alice Sand" , "Alex & Laurie" , "Alan Williams" , "Adam Brough" , "Abraham Mele" , "AA-Harrry-Tydsley" , "Enrah Gultekin" Subject: GET TOGETHER it is NEXT WEEK END -- A REMINDER Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:56:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 5 2002 Dear Friends: Just a Reminder : THIS WEEK-END ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- THEOSOPHICAL GET-TOGETHER -- August 9th - 10th 2002 EIGHTH ANNUAL THEOSOPHICAL GATHERING August 9, 10 & 11 at Long Beach, Los Angeles, California All students and friends of Theosophy are cordially invited to attend any and all portions of this weekend event. We look forward to seeing old friends and making new ones: ------------------------------------------------------------ ----- FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 2002 7:30 PM -- 8:45 PM -- Evening Study Class AT -- LONG BEACH THEOSOPHICAL CENTER AND LIBRARY, 3127 South St., North Long Beach , (near 91 Freeway, between Downey Ave & Paramount Blvd) (Los Angeles area) ---------------------------------------------------------- SATURDAY, AUGUST 10, 2002: At -- SEAPORT MARINA HOTEL, 6400 Pacific Coast Highway, Long Beach. Telephone: 1-800-434-8451 www.seaportmarinahotel.com INFORMAL GATHERING (All day ) - On the hotel grounds or poolside, all day. The hotel is located near the Long Beach Marina, with many summer leisure activities close by. Shops and restaurants are within walking distance at the Marketplace and Seaport Village. ------------------------------------------------- SATURDAY EVENING "CONFERENCE": [ August 10th, 2002 ] 6 PM to 9 PM. Seaport Marina Hotel, conference room. The theme is "THEOSOPHY AND A MODERN RENAISSANCE:" -- THEOSOPHY & BUDDHISM, -- TAROT & THE SECRET DOCTRINE, -- WORLD-WIDE EXPRESSIONS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, and the Relevance of the Objects. Contact Myrra Lee at toy77@aol.com for further info. NOTE: tea, coffee and cookies will be offered. Eat before or after, or bring in something. ---------------------------------------------------------- SUNDAY, AUGUST 11, 2002 at: UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS, 245 West 33rd Street (at Grand Avenue), (at Grand Ave., near University of Southern California, 1 block North of Jefferson and Grand Ave. intersection.) Los Angeles, 9007 Phone: (213) 748-7244 ---------------------------------- Morning study class : 10:30 AM - Noon "CORRELATIONS OF THEOSOPHY AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES" Lively, open style. Everything from Astronomy to Zoology, in the Light Of Theosophy. -------------------------------------------- to be followed by a POTLUCK LUNCH ULT. Noon - 2:30 PM. Stay after the morning class, join the regular potluck lunch: "FIESTA LATINA!" ------------------------------------------------------------ --- ------------- GENERAL ------------- TRAVEL Long Beach Airport is nearby and may be more convenient than LAX. Clearance formalities are shorter. Accommodations: For those coming from out of town, a block of 20 rooms (double occupancy) at the Seaport Marina Hotel has been set aside. Ask for the "Theosophy Conference" to get the group rate. Make reservations as early as possible. Seaport Marina Hotel, 6400 Pacific Coast Highway, Long Beach. Telephone: 1-800-434-8451 Website: www.seaportmarinahotel.com The hotel is located near the Long Beach Marina, with many summer leisure activities close by. Shops and restaurants are within walking distance at the Marketplace and Seaport Village. ------------------------------------------- For further information : Website: http://www.geocities.com/lbtheosophy2002/Gathering_2002.html E-mail: Gail Stevenson: gl_stevenson@hotmail.com Linda Smith: Lsmith5834@aol.com Wes Amerman: amerman@theosophy.net [ End info. on 2002 GET-TOGETHER at Long Beach, CA. ] ========================== Best wishes, Dallas dalval14@earthlink.net Phone: 818-222-8024 From micforster@yahoo.com Mon Aug 05 16:02:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 5 Aug 2002 23:02:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 82973 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2002 23:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2002 23:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13403.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2002 23:02:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20020805230238.8788.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.12.0.40] by web13403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:02:38 PDT Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: parenthetically speaking To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster I have always enjoyed writing articles, stories etc. The other day I was writing and I used parentheses and I wondered how many times I could use parentheses in parentheses. If we look at parentheses as marking off an explanation or an after thought then, technically, we could speak parenthetically about anything and everything. Conceivably you could start with a simple statement, such as the cat sat on the mat, and end up parenthetically speaking about everything and anything in the universe. Such is consistent with the theosophical doctrine of the interconnectedness of all that is and ever will be. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Aug 05 17:28:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 00:28:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 64394 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 00:28:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 00:28:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 00:28:35 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bsDD-0003QK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4F1880.FBCA754D@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:29:52 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Left and Right, Black and White References: <20020805.071841.-753065.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > Sorry to everyone else for this political science dialogue. When I first > jumped in I thought it was heading in the direction of a discussion of > the right and left paths, white and black magic. Oh, well! In general, when someone asks me about black magic, I talk about stage magicians of sub-Saharan African descent. However, in any workings, be they of science where we know the basic principles involved, or in areas where we can only guess, intent is important. But, if someone drops a plugged-in toaster into somebody else's bath, we don't call that person a practitioner of "black electricity." Nor do we call a pharmacist a practitioner of "white chemistry." While Blavatsky was a major proponent of the "right-hand path", that does not make it the only valid path; it's mainly that, if one takes the so-called "left-hand path," it's far easier to become fooled by the desires that are contained in the physical, ephemeral part of the human body than the "right-hand path." But note those who, in confusion, go so far out on the right-hand path that they end up hurting themselves without helping others, which is just as bad. Bart Lidofsky From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 05 19:00:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 02:00:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 26215 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 02:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 02:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 02:00:17 -0000 Received: from pool0612.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.228.102] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17btdv-0006hP-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 19:00:16 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re esoteric/exoteric re Dallas Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:57:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3D4E6500.42BC36EC@idirect.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Mauri: make it simple. If the 7 Principles of Man is correct, then, at the core of our being -- the MONAD -- ATMA/BUDDHI is all the possible esotericism any one would want. The MONAD within is on its plane in contact with the Universe and all its wisdom. What is our trouble? We live (when awake in this body of ours) in a Mind which is linked and limited to the physical, and the psychic (desires, passions -- Kama) area of our consciousness. There is however a thread (as you may have noticed H P B speaks of it in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) which you say you read) between the embodied mind that has to use the brain as its link and the HIGHER MANAS which is forever linked to ATMA-BUDDHI. Solve that equation and what we call "esotericism" is ours. A clue is diversity arises from unity. Unity arises from NO THING. Or as said of old: "Look inward, thou art Buddha." Dallas =============== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 4:44 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World re esoteric/exoteric re Dallas Re the subject/defining of "esoteric/exoteric," Dallas wrote, in part: <<<<>>>>>>>>>> So <> . . . ? I'm tending to wonder about the kind of "esoteric/exoteric" sense that that "learn and evaluate" was (or might be?) meant in . . . Seems to me that there are various senses of "esoteric/exoteric," and if the distinction between "esoteric as experiential" and "esoteric as whatever else" isn't made, then, as I see it, confusion can result, and some people may get the impression that <>, without directly experiencing the "real esoteric," can somehow "meaningfully enough" replace the experiential esoteric. Yes, there may be "meaning enough" in some forms of <>, but I think that it might be generally helpful if a clearer distinction is made between the forms of "esoteric" that are experiential, and those that are whatever else. Speculatively, Mauri Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 07:12:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 14:12:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 62748 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 14:12:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 14:12:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 14:12:11 -0000 Received: from pool0448.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.193] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c50w-0004v0-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 07:08:46 -0700 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: Part 3 -- Answers to Q RC Aug 6 2002 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:05:29 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Part 3 Aug. 6, 2002 MASTERS -- Answers to questions Offered for consideration -- some views concerning the MASTERS Answers at an informal study class: These are selections offered by W D T from the book ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS (Publisher: Theosophy Company, Los Angeles ) ======================================= ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS. These Answers to Questions were given by Robert Crosbie ROBERT CROSBIE, was for many years a devoted pupil of H. P. Blavatsky and William Q. Judge. The Ocean of Theosophy, written by Mr. Judge, was regarded by Mr. Crosbie as the perfect condensation of H.P.B.'s great work, The Secret Doctrine, and therefore the best possible book to put in the hands of students. The simplicity, the directness, the spirit of Mr. Crosbie's Answers to Questions, is best represented to theosophical students who, with each succeeding generation, are all too apt to rely solely on the printed word, and so fail to come in touch with the living Presence which animates all true teachings. Mr. Crosbie's replies were in all cases but to provide a focus for thought. His was the voice of devotion, speaking in response to the aspiration of the questioner. His utterance is ever that of the disciple, who, while he tries to express him, never forgets that he is but the pupil of a beloved, revered and great Teacher. It should be remembered that while the answers are given from the standpoint of many years' experience and application, they are not to be taken as hard and fast definitions, nor as authoritative. The student, being "the final authority" for himself, should not accept any statement by any being whatever unless he himself perceives its truth. ============================================================ PART 3 On MASTERS p.20 Q. What would you say is "Nature" and what "Soul"? A. Our understanding of Nature is comprised in the sum total of manifestations of matter, forms, elements and forces that we are able to perceive, all of these being effects of causes not generally under stood. In reality the word "Nature" should be understood as including the Cause and causes of what we perceive, as well as the effects. "Soul" applies to intelligence, the numberless kinds of which are the causes which produce the external effects perceived and sensed. There are many kinds of "Soul" which may be roughly divided into mineral, vegetable, animal, human and beyond. The Universe is embodied consciousness. Nature, in its widest sense, can only be comprehended by a realization that the universe, as manifested, is an expression of many degrees of intelligence or soul, and that the universe exists because of the "Soul", and only for the "Soul's" experience. An ancient writing says, "There is no room for grief or doubt in the heart of him who sees and knows that all spiritual beings are the same in kind and differ only in degree." Q. Then Divine, Human and Animal Soul refer simply to the kind and degree of experiences acquired ? A. Yes. These are simply qualifying terms used to designate degrees of acquired experience and intelligence. The sense of "being" comes from perceptive power in action; as the range of perception and reflection increases, the realization of "being" p.21 becomes stronger. The self of all beings is the One Supreme Self; it is the center of perceiving power in every form; from this center all growth of intelligence and form proceeds in ever-widening circles. Q. What is the difference between Spirit and Soul ? A. Spirit is universal. It cannot be said to belong to anything or anybody. It is like the air, universal and everywhere. It cannot know Itself except as Soul. Spirit is the "power to become"; Soul is "the becoming." Spirit is the power to see and know; Soul is the seeing and knowing. Soul is the accumulation of perceptions and experiences by means of which Spiritual Identity is realized. Q. In what way does the theosophical teaching of Law differ from the ordinary understanding of it? A. The ordinary idea in regard to Law implies a Law-Giver, which Theology imagines to be a Supreme Being, who by his arbitrary will creates and establishes all nature, the laws of nature, and all beings. Materialistic Science seeks for and recognizes Law in the ob servable processes of Nature, but goes no further than what may be visibly determined and demonstrated. Human Laws consist of enactments designed presumably to express the general sentiment and desires of the people as a whole, and to restrain individuals who do not share the general sentiment. Such laws are based upon the necessities of the time, and are changed as the general sentiments of the people change and as necessities compel such changes. Neither "the laws of God" so called, the laws of matter so far determined, nor ever-changing human laws, present any universal basis upon which a true conception of Law can be founded, for these three conceptions differ widely in their bases and applications, and are readily perceived to be mere expedients. The highest attribute of Law is exact justice, and only that conception which presents Law as incontrovertible justice can be said to be a true one. The p.22 Theosophical statement in regard to Law exhibits and provides for exact justice to every being and in every way. There is but one law for all beings; it has been called the Law of Laws, and is known under the name of Karma. This word means "action," without which there is no re-action; it is also known as "Cause and Effect" or "Sowing and Reaping." It is taught that there is no action unless there is a being to act or feel its effects, and as any action affects other beings, these must obtain their adjustment at the point of original action. Thus Justice and Mercy are provided for in the inherent nature of all beings, for both in their last analysis are one and the same. Q. Is not Justice considered to be inexorable in condemnation, and Mercy to be that which tempers Justice? A. No doubt they are so considered, but we should remember that the human idea of justice includes punishment for injustice, and the power to punish being self-assumed and admittedly prone to misjudgment, arouses the human quality of Mercy from the very uncertainty in regard to exact justice, and perhaps from a knowledge of the scriptural saying, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." True justice must be a complete re adjustment of any and all disturbances, and at the same time bring about full compensation. Mercy as ordinarily understood lies in the non-exercise of the power to punish, and in itself in that relation is a tacit recognition of the fact that perfect justice, humanly speaking, is unattainable. We should be able to see that perfect justice and perfect mercy are not opposed to each other. but are in reality two aspects of one and the same thing, namely, exact and full compensation in every case and every direction. Compassion and Compensation are a perfect blend, and express what we call Justice and Mercy. Q. This seems to point to justice and injustice as things apart from those affected by them? p.23 A. It may seem so to those whose minds still hold to the idea of external law or causation; but there could be neither justice nor injustice if there were no beings to produce or feel them. Theosophy presents the point of view that every state and form of matter is the embodiment of a spiritual and psychic degree of intelligence. The form neither exercises nor feels justice nor injustice, but That which animates and uses it does. It is the thought, will, and feeling of the animating intelligence that affects other animating intelligences through their embodiments, and necessarily the reactions of those effects must be adjusted by the intelligence who originated the action. Q. This would seem to indicate an unending repetition of good for good and evil for evil. A. Not if we have understood that the animating intelligence is a being who, from experiencing the effects in himself resulting from evil action, refrains from evil causation and sets in motion only that which brings good. Q. But does not that present a selfish motive ? A. No doubt the desire for reward and for the avoidance of punishment is there, and it is selfish; but it is the first step in the direction of feeling responsibility, and responsibility is the beginning of selflessness. The being sees and knows in ever increasing degree that evil is overcome only by good, and hatred by love, and finally that there is no lasting good save the good of All. Justice is not possible without consideration for all others, and consideration for others is charity towards their weaknesses leading to Mercy and Compassion. The first step in the right direction contains all the other steps. Q. Does intelligence initiate Law, or is it Law that initiates intelligence ? A. As said many times, Law simply represents the power to act which is inherent in every being of every p.24 kind. There is no action unless there is a being to act or feel its effects. The Law is Action which brings its exact re-action. The Gita says that Spirit and Matter are without beginning. Spirit is "the power to perceive"; what is called Matter represents action and its results. The power to act is inherent in all beings; Law is the use of that power. Q. It has been said that knowledge exists as an abstraction, which would seem to imply that knowledge exists of itself, regardless of its Knowers? A. What we know is our knowledge; what Masters know is certainly an abstraction to us, although it has been acquired by those Great Beings. In the statement that knowledge exists as an abstraction, it undoubtedly refers to the illimitable power to know which becomes individualized through diversity, and finally arrives at a perception and realization of the Unity of All. Also, perhaps, because there is no end to progress in knowledge. Q. Why does it say (page 5, OCEAN), "The precise condition of their success was that they should never be supervised or obstructed"? A. The words are Their own statement, and if we believe in Their knowledge, have to be accepted as true. We can however see that the prevailing passions and desires of men would resent and obstruct any known attempt that would militate against the pursuit of their desires. But if, step by step, little by little, better ideas are instilled, then self-induced and self-devised efforts along these higher lines will be perceived and acted upon. No doubt there are many other means used, but what ever these may be, they are of the nature which stimulates the higher ideality of man through his inner being. Q. "The major and minor yugas must be accomplished And we, borne along the mighty tide, can only modify and direct some of its minor cur rents". What is meant by this statement? p.25 A. While the Masters are Law, in that They express it fully and universally, They have arrived at that perfection of universal perception and power of action through Evolution from stage to stage of being. This perfection was obtained through an exact fulfillment of the inherent spiritual Law common to all beings. Each being expands in accordance with his comprehension and use of the inherent power of action; he acts and receives the results of his action, during which process he arrives at a perception of being, or That which acts and is acted upon. His perceptions expand in ever-widening circles as does also a recognition of his responsibility for his actions. In this way each being must develop-from within, outward. The Masters, who express and fulfill the Law, would not if They could, interfere with that growth which can only come from accumulated and varied experiences on the part of individuals; but They can by reason of Their knowledge of when, where, and how to act, enable mankind to avert disasters, if it will serve the better progress of all, and the condition permits. Also, having knowledge and control of the invisible forces of nature, They may use these to obstruct a wrong course on the part of any people, or assist progress in the right direction. The "VOICE OF THE SILENCE" says, "Teach to eschew all causes; the ripple of effect, as the great tidal wave, thou shalt let run its course." Q. That explains why Masters, though so powerful, do not interfere to prevent the present crisis. A. Granting Their great power and knowledge, and taking into consideration the fact that knowledge only comes through observation and experience, we can see the reasonableness of the statement. Individuals and the collections of individuals called nations, must learn through pain and suffering, because joy and pleasure arouse the desire to p.26 maintain the conditions that bring these; neither knowledge, power, nor the strong qualities are gained in ease, comfort or temporary happiness. So, when the cycle of time has arrived for a settlement of Karma between races, the adjustment must be accomplished and the lessons learned, on the part of all the races involved, so that Humanity may go forward. Q. Since reincarnation applies to all planets, should not the term be re-embodiment? It speaks of Venus as being the habitation of still more progressed entities, once as low as ourselves, but now raised to a pitch of glory incomprehensible to our intellect. Does Venus affect us? A. The term reincarnation refers to us as in habiting bodies of flesh; re-embodiment would per haps be a better general term, but there must be on other planets that which corresponds to our bodies. Venus, as a planet, is very much farther ahead in development than our earth, and its inhabitants are also, as stated; but however far ahead or behind this earth other planets may be, all are related to each other and necessarily affect each other in some degree, all of them being parts of the one great evolutionary stream. Q. How long will we have to incarnate on this earth? A. Until we have done our whole duty towards all beings concerned in our evolutionary stream, and fully understand our own natures. Why should we want to escape from all that makes up our perceptions of life? It is our karmic duty to raise the whole mass up to a higher degree, a new world in fact, in which we will share. Q. Will a man who has gained a high perception of truth in this life, and who does good, be ignorant again? A. The Gita says, "Never to an evil place goeth p.27 the man who doeth good." What we will bring with us into our next life will be the tendencies that we have acquired in this one, be they good or bad. Each life affords an opportunity to correct evil tendencies and establish good ones. Q. Does our progress upward involve the progress of matter? A. What we call matter is the embodiment of many kinds of "lives"; we use it continually in our bodies through the food we take. We impress those lives with our feelings during the time these lives form parts of our bodies; when they return to their own kingdoms they carry the impulse we have given them whether good or bad; when they again are drawn into other forms, they still carry our impress. No small part of our physical karma lies in this direction. Q. Would you consider a man, evidently materialistic, but who works for the good of mankind, a Master? A. A materialist, no matter what good he might try to do for the physical welfare of his fellow men could not be thought of as a Master. Though ignorant of the true nature of all mankind, his desire and effort to alleviate suffering would remain with him, the good karma of which would bring him into contact with those who in the world of men had some knowledge of the true; from this point onward he might strive in the right direction with greater knowledge. A Master of Wisdom is one far beyond the ordinary human conception. Q. The chapter speaks of Masters and Adepts; is there a difference? A. There is a great difference: an adept is one on the way to Mastership; there are many degrees of Adeptship. Masters are, in consequence of evolution and great effort continued through many lives, now at the point, physically, mentally and spiritually where p.28 adepts, and others striving, will be in the distant future. They are living men, only higher and holier than we are. While They are truly living men, They may not be understood to be like ourselves. They have bodies, but these bodies are made of the most highly re fined and spiritualized matter-matter of which we have but slight conception. In those bodies all of the forces belonging to man, and these mean the very highest expression of the great forces of nature, constantly play, and must have corresponding effect upon anyone who may come in Their direct range. With such a conception of the nature of Their bodies, we may be able to dimly perceive to what a pitch of power and glory Their inner natures have been raised. If we thus dimly grasp the nature of Masters, we will be able to reverence Them in our hearts, and to endeavor to draw near to Them in our innermost being; nor will we be deceived by claims made by, or for, this or that person, nor take it for granted that books written with the purpose of defining Masters' powers, place, or imagined individual characteristics, have any value whatever. All such are mere speculations and an attempt in fact to drag those great Beings down to our plane of terrestrial conceptions-"a misuse of sacred names", as H. P. B. wrote in the "Key to Theosophy." are facts in Nature, facts however which our highest ideals will not fully encompass. Let us therefore endow Them with the highest we can conceive of, try to assimilate that "highest" within ourselves, endeavor to draw near to Them in our heart of hearts, and thus form for ourselves that line of communication which They have said They are always ready to help establish; and let us keep that ideal as a sacred thing in the repository of our hearts, not to be lightly thought of nor spoken of, but as a shrine of our highest aspirations, safely guarded from all intrusion, sacred and secret. and thus only, may we in time come to know Them face to face Q. Do Masters come alone? p.29 A. As "the will of the Masters is one," the word "alone" has but a superficial meaning as regards Them. But whether there are one or more of these exalted Personages in the world at any given time, the influence and force of the Lodge flows through its one or several representatives in the world of men. Whether there is one, or more, depends upon the period and the nature of the mission to be performed. Q. Was Moses a Master? A. There is evidence pointing to Adeptship in this case as in numbers of others in the distant past; men who were reformers and showed themselves to be possessed of power over the forces of nature. Pharaoh's magicians were adepts of a kind, but Moses was more powerful. There is no evidence of Mastership, however, in his teaching. Q. Can Humanity go down! On page 11 OCEAN, it speaks of India and China as being in a backward state? A. If by "humanity" is meant a civilization or progress in certain directions, it had its beginning and will have its ending; the vast civilizations of the past have disappeared, as the present one will, to be succeeded by another. Any civilization is com posed of many egos of different degrees of development. As the progress reaches its zenith, higher classes of egos find conditions suited to their development; but as the mass of mankind reincarnates from life to life with very little change in knowledge and ideal, and the wealth and luxury of a nation increases, ancient ideals are lost sight of and the moral strength decreases; egos of less and less development find conditions suited to them in the descending civilization; developed egos do not incarnate; and the civilization finally dies out. The more developed egos incarnate in another civilization more suited to their natures. There are civilizations at the present day, some in the last stages of dissolution, some passing through the throes of birth, some young and some at maturer age. Progress and stability do not depend upon any form of civilization, but upon the egos which compose it at any given time. p.30 Q. What was the scope of the mission of Jesus? A. The conditions of any period determine the nature and extent of any mission, but it must be remembered that the Teacher's knowledge cannot be gauged by what the disciples were able to under stand. It is evident that his mission was an extremely important one for the West, for the ethics he taught remain throughout the centuries since. A knowledge of the law of cycles, as expressed in the rise and fall of civilizations, shows that Jesus came at the time of a descending cycle and that he concealed far more than he revealed; he taught the multitudes in parables, but to his disciples taught the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven." These "mysteries" are not recorded. Christian theology is composed of Jewish exoteric conceptions of Deity and dead-letter text interpretations of the recorded sayings of Jesus. The only record made by Jesus himself was "written upon the sand." It is the ethics that he taught that constitute the real basis of his mission, and these ethics differ in no way from the ethics of all past ages and previous divine incarnations. It has been said that Jesus came to he "a witness upon the scene" to the reality of spiritual knowledge and power, during the centuries of material advancement and spiritual darkness which were to come. Q. Was the work of Confucius something of the same nature? A. Confucius was a reformer; his work was of a moral nature among his people in the East. Q. What is meant by keeping "A Witness on the scene" for future generations? p.31 A. If there was not a fresh statement of such portions of the ancient Wisdom-Religion as the minds of the people could understand-especially on a descending cycle-when materialistic conceptions prevailed in regard to religion and life, as it did at the time of Jesus, and to a great extent does yet-human spiritual conceptions would be gradually lost sight of in the material and intellectual struggle for existence as physical beings. When an age of transition arrives, when peoples, governments, religions and sciences are changing, as they now are, the time arrives for an incomparably greater revealing by Those who Know, of the nature of Man and the laws that govern the evolution of all beings. The one who imparts that knowledge to Humanity is much more than a "witness on the scene." ======================= Offered by Dallas From alessifedor@yahoo.com Tue Aug 06 09:33:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: alessifedor@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 16:33:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 96835 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 16:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 16:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 16:33:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2002 16:33:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:33:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Left and Right, Black and White Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D4F1880.FBCA754D@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1310 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "alessifedor" X-Originating-IP: 166.34.180.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118000511 X-Yahoo-Profile: alessifedor This discussion regarding the left or the right intrigued me. There are many shades of gray regarding the "right" path, relatively speaking. Who's to say that the right-handed path is not really the left-handed path or vice-versa? What is your reasoning for saying that the left-handed path is a valid path if it leads to a more delusional state of mind? Isn't that the path of insanity? How is it that the right-handed path can lead to confusion? Perhaps, those who are in confusion on the right-handed path are really on the left-handed path. A sure-footed fanatic who thinks he is on the right-handed path may not be where he thinks he is at. I would like to know what you think of my questions. Regards, Alessi Fedorowicz --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > While Blavatsky was a major proponent of the "right-hand path", that > does not make it the only valid path; it's mainly that, if one takes the > so-called "left-hand path," it's far easier to become fooled by the > desires that are contained in the physical, ephemeral part of the human > body than the "right-hand path." But note those who, in confusion, go so > far out on the right-hand path that they end up hurting themselves > without helping others, which is just as bad. > > Bart Lidofsky From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Aug 06 10:19:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 17:19:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 47898 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 17:19:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 17:19:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 17:19:18 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-07-26.look.ca ([216.154.46.73] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17c7zJ-0007R0-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:19:17 +0000 Message-ID: <3D50063F.BD853FC0@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:24:15 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Dallas . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> I thought that we sort of established that the "atma-buddhi monad" was kind of "APPARENTLY esoteric," in a sense, comparatively, exoterically speaking . . . but surely there's "a more relevant issue" about the meaning of "esoteric" that might interest some Theosophists, as per, for example, on Theos-1, Re to Mauri - Esoteric, Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:49:33 -. Here's an excerpts from that post by Gerald: <>>> I suspect that some texts might often appeal to those who might have a problem with some "more relevant" way of "looking within themself." Not that there's anything wrong with exoteric studies, particularly . . . but/"but" . . . I suspect that people in general tend to have a certain sense of "essential relevance" (say?), in various/interpretive ways, that's basically "experientially based" (whether it's perceived so or not?) in the sense that only the reality of direct experience "will do" re such as "spirituality" re such as atma/buddhi, monadic, Monad, (precisely because such concepts are "too esoteric" and too "far out" to "understand about" other then by direct experience) . . . So, in a sense, that kind of perceived "relevance" isn't (as I see it) "particularly related" to the kind of mindset that's generally associated with (?) words such as <> since (while the "amount" of "esotericism" "re" such as atma-buddhi is not likely generally in question?) the "esoteric," itself, in the sense of actual/experienctial as in "mystical," is not possible to even describe with words (as we seem to have been rather repeatedly told!?)---though some words "ABOUT" ways and means, models, Theosophies, etc. (re "exoteric aspects") might be seen as "helpful" in some sense (which kind of "help" is, really, as I see it, rather intermediary/exoteric, and, often (?), tends to get "somewhat far too intermediary," in a way, to the extent that some students might tend to get turned off by what they might see as contradictory fare?) . . . After all, there wuld SEEM to be (?) some people (even "students"?) out there who might have a "thing" about things that don't "SEEM" to fit . . . So, in the interest of "perceived applicability," one might . . . whatever . . . Speculatively, Mauri From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Aug 06 11:31:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 18:31:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 69501 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 18:31:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 18:31:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 18:31:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 21224 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 18:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe.theosophy.com) (167.167.187.145) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 18:31:32 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20020806112950.01c004a8@theosophy.com> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:31:26 -0700 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: standards from the past Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Here's something funny that I saw at work. (It illustrates how a tradition carries on long after its original purpose for existence has ended. Perhaps we find the same in some of our philosophical ideas? Could there be ideas that relate to the circumstances of earlier times that aren't as relevant in today's world?) -- Eldon ---- OK, for all you would be historians out there. Here's a true one that will make you think. Does the statement, We've always done it that way ring any bells? The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads. Why did the English build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. So who built those old rutted roads? Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses. Now comes the twist to the story. When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRB's. The SRB's are made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The engineers who designed the SRB's would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRB's had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRB's had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds. So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass. And you thought being a HORSE'S ASS wasn't important! From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Aug 06 11:55:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 18:55:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 81925 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 18:55:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 18:55:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 18:55:37 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c9UW-00039E-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:55:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3D501BF7.7A41D51C@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:56:55 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 alessifedor wrote: > Who's to say that the right-handed path is not really the left-handed > path or vice-versa? There was a postmodernist professor who had a thesis that red was green and green was red. Unfortunately, on the way to present it, he died in a traffic accident. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Aug 06 13:40:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 16406 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.81.1f8475d6 (4328) for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <81.1f8475d6.2a818e37@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:40:23 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/06/02 11:35:15 AM, alessifedor@yahoo.com (Alessi Fedorowicz) writes: >This discussion regarding the left or the right intrigued me. There >are many shades of gray regarding the "right" path, relatively >speaking. > >Who's to say that the right-handed path is not really the left-handed >path or vice-versa? > >What is your reasoning for saying that the left-handed path is a >valid path if it leads to a more delusional state of mind? Isn't >that the path of insanity? > >How is it that the right-handed path can lead to confusion? Perhaps, >those who are in confusion on the right-handed path are really on the >left-handed path. A sure-footed fanatic who thinks he is on the >right-handed path may not be where he thinks he is at. > >I would like to know what you think of my questions. To answer your questions it would help if we defined the "right hand path" simply as the path of selflessness and compassion for the welfare of others -- and the "left hand path" as the path of selfishness and unconcern for the welfare of others. Both paths would lead to the same attainment of "enlightenment" and understanding of the potential application of all the powers of nature. Whether one is confused or not on either path would depend solely on the degree of openness or closedness of the acolyte's mind. As the Buddha said, "Everything we are is the result of what we have thought -- and everything we will become is the result of what we are thinking now." Upon the attainment of sufficient knowledge of the true nature of reality, and control over those "powers of nature," the practices of acolytes on the right hand path may be considered "white magic" -- and those of the left hand path, "black magic." Best wishes, LHM From alessifedor@yahoo.com Tue Aug 06 15:05:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: alessifedor@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 22:05:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 52215 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 22:05:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 22:05:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 22:05:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2002 22:05:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 22:05:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81.1f8475d6.2a818e37@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 551 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "alessifedor" X-Originating-IP: 166.34.180.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118000511 X-Yahoo-Profile: alessifedor I was hoping someone would mention selflessness and selfishness. Rush Limbaugh whom some think as a "hero to the selfish" might be considered to be on the left-handed path even though he thinks he's doing the right thing. Thanks, Alessi --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > To answer your questions it would help if we defined the "right hand path" > simply as the path of selflessness and compassion for the welfare of others > -- and the "left hand path" as the path of selfishness and unconcern for the > welfare of others. From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Aug 06 15:35:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 22:35:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 13778 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 22:35:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 22:35:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13403.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 22:35:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20020806223555.80006.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.12.2.63] by web13403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:35:55 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: why a woman? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D50063F.BD853FC0@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Before I say anything this post is not meant to be sexist or offensive - please view it objectively and any one that cannot do so stop reading now. I was meditating last night about HPB the woman. Not HPB the Russian, HPB the theosophist, nor HPB the occultist, but HPB the woman. On meditating it struck me how peculiar it is that a woman would bring forth such an important piece of knowledge. Take a look at all the other spiritual/philosophical gurus of past ages and they are all men....Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Plato, Pythagoras, etc etc. Yes you can say that these were men because of the age they lived in; women have only been given more freedom in the contemporary age. But HPB did not live in such a liberal era. Women, in our so called democracies, did not even have the vote. Why then, of all the people on Earth, did HPB bring us the Secret Doctrine? Why did the Mahatmas choose to communicate with her? Has the SD had more effect on humanity because it was delivered by a woman? Would we be still studying the SD if, say, WQJ delivered it instead of HPB? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Aug 06 15:49:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 22:49:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 98279 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 22:49:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 22:49:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 22:49:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20020806224945.15174.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.12.2.63] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:49:45 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World standards from the past To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020806112950.01c004a8@theosophy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Eldon, I wished they used such a standard here in Australia. Before rail reforms took place in the 1980s the railroads used to be slightly wider in New South Wales than they were in Victoria. So every time a passenger train or freight train arrived at the states' border everyone and thing had to get out and change. As you could imagine this was very inefficient and must have been very frustrating. But I'm not too sure if they used the old 4 feet 8.5 inches in the end!! --- Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Here's something funny that I saw at work. (It > illustrates how a > tradition carries on long after its original purpose > for existence > has ended. Perhaps we find the same in some of our > philosophical > ideas? Could there be ideas that relate to the > circumstances of > earlier times that aren't as relevant in today's > world?) > > -- Eldon > > ---- > > OK, for all you would be historians out there. > Here's a true one > that will make you think. Does the statement, We've > always done > it that way ring any bells? > > The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the > rails) is 4 > feet 8.5 inches. > > That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge > used? > Because that's the way they built them in England, > and English > expatriates built the US Railroads. > > Why did the English build them like that? Because > the first rail > lines were built by the same people who built the > pre-railroad > tramways, and that's the gauge they used. > > Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people > who built > the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they > used for > building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. > > Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd > wheel spacing? > Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the > wagon wheels > would break on some of the old, long distance roads > in England, > because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. > > So who built those old rutted roads? Imperial Rome > built the > first long distance roads in Europe (and England) > for their > legions. The roads have been used ever since. > > And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed > the initial > ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of > destroying > their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for > Imperial > Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel > spacing. > > The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, > 8.5 inches > is derived from the original specifications for an > Imperial Roman > war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever. > > So the next time you are handed a specification and > wonder what > horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly > right, because > the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide > enough to > accommodate the back ends of two war horses. > > Now comes the twist to the story. > > When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch > pad, there are > two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the > main fuel > tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRB's. > > The SRB's are made by Thiokol at their factory at > Utah. The > engineers who designed the SRB's would have > preferred to make them > a bit fatter, but the SRB's had to be shipped by > train from the > factory to the launch site. > > The railroad line from the factory happens to run > through a > tunnel in the mountains. The SRB's had to fit > through that > tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the > railroad track, > and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as > wide as two > horses' behinds. > > So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is > arguably the > world's most advanced transportation system was > determined over > two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's > ass. > > And you thought being a HORSE'S ASS wasn't > important! > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From dennw3k@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 16:47:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 6 Aug 2002 23:47:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 46701 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2002 23:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2002 23:47:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 23:47:20 -0000 Received: from 1cust107.tnt16.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.11.107] helo=u7k5a4) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cE2p-0004SD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c23da3$d130e000$6b0be043@u7k5a4> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> <001501c23bae$2090bd20$fc92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool - a useable SYSTEM ? Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:35:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 If it was in the body of the text of the message, I didn't see it. If it was in one of the LINKS, - I have a dial-up connection, and never go to the links, as I read and answer Off-Line, and am only On-Line to send and receive messages, and then back off-line again. Dennis. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Sufilight" To: Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:56 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool - a useable SYSTEM ? Hi Dennis and all, Dennis wrote the following about the "Unfinished Autobiography" by Alice A. Bailey : "I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source." Well Dennis, then I am somewhat surprised, that you didn't read or print out my email August 1st 2002 here at Theos-talk. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7593 (email 7593) and the in the email linked article also posted at Theos-talk at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 (email 4389) or http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM (a newer version) The article certainly mentions this Alice A. Bailey book. The following will maybe be of some help. I few days back I wrote the following in an email here at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 17:06:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 4600 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:41 -0000 Received: from pool0322.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.67] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cELW-0003eu-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:06:38 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Measurements: standards from the past Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:04:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020806112950.01c004a8@theosophy.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 6 2002 Re: the Science of ancient Measurements. S D and Isis. Dear Eldon and Friends: Now that's a wonderful illustration you offer, that, to me shows one of the reasons why Theosophy uses METAPHYSICS instead of physics. The source is more valuable than the effect we can measure on the physical plane. Perhaps it gave cause for the distinction between "Head" and "Heart" learning, or the "Eye and the Heart doctrines." But getting very literal let's see what we use for measurements: Where did the Romans get that measurement? Was it handed down over the eras from the Greeks, Egyptians, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, Medes, Hindus, Chinese, Tibetans, Mongolians, the early "Aryan (Nobles) races ?" What was the "cubit" (Parker ratio" -- S D I 313-4. [Dictionary says 18 inches, or 45.72 centimeters.] Generally, the dictionary says it was an average measurement from a man's elbow to the tip of his forefinger. The Literal ( or Head-Learning ) measure in finite terms which may be arbitrary. Wasn't it J. Ralston Skinner who wrote the SOURCE OF MEASURES and pointed to the "cubit" (18 inches) as once, a universal measurement used for building sacred edifices? [ S D I 264 ] Involved are Pi, the "Parker ratio" [ S D I 313, 383, 391, II 465, 543-4 (key to Kabbala) I 443-4, II 515-7 (Tree of Knowledge), and a number of symbols (the unfolded cube -- cross -- as "man") (S D I 321, II 543, 600fn ; then S D I 392 (on the solar year and moon cycles), (Jehovah's measure II 38, 388fn, 389.). Judge in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (p. 17) and H P B in The SECRET DOCTRINE recount how Piazzi Smyth wrote lengthily on the "British inch" seeking to establish it as the basis for the measurements used in the Pyramids.[S D I 314-7, II 466] Here are some other interesting facts concerning physical measurements and their variations: The word "inch" means a twelfth part. A "foot" is derived from an average measurement of a human foot. It is set at 1/3 of a yard, or 12 inches or 30,48 cm. A "cubit" -- 18 inches, or 45.72 centimeters. It is an average measurement from a man's elbow to the tip of his forefinger. A "yard" -- 3 feet or 36 inches, ( 0.9144 meters.) A "mile" -- (statute mile is 1760 yards or 5280 feet ( 1,603.3 meters ) The "geographical or nautical mile" is the measure of "One Minute of the earth's circumference" or 6080.20 feet (1853.248 meters). [ 60 minutes make a Degree. The Earth's circumference is 360 Degrees ] The Roman mile was 1620 English yards, or 1,482 meters. This only shows how differences in standard arise. The metric standard is perhaps the most precise devised so far, yet certain countries continue to refuse to adopt it and use it. Endless time is lost in converting measurements in chemistry and physics. Science has usually adopted the metric system, but when a result is to be expressed in terms of engineering and manufacture, and practical application, there is a reversion to the old cumbersome standards. For those who like to use the terms "exoteric" and "esoteric" we might say that Science uses esoteric measurements and is forced in practice to convert them to "exoteric" terms when practical PHYSICAL objectives are to be achieved. Best wishes, Dallas =================== -----Original Message----- From: Eldon B Tucker [mailto:eldon@theosophy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:31 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World standards from the past Here's something funny that I saw at work. (It illustrates how a tradition carries on long after its original purpose for existence has ended. Perhaps we find the same in some of our philosophical ideas? Could there be ideas that relate to the circumstances of earlier times that aren't as relevant in today's world?) -- Eldon ---- OK, for all you would be historians out there. Here's a true one that will make you think. Does the statement, We've always done it that way ring any bells? The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads. Why did the English build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. So who built those old rutted roads? Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses. Now comes the twist to the story. When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRB's. The SRB's are made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The engineers who designed the SRB's would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRB's had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRB's had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds. So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass. And you thought being a HORSE'S ASS wasn't important! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 17:06:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 39165 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:49 -0000 Received: from pool0322.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.67] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cELf-0003eu-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:06:48 -0700 To: Cc: "AA-Ramprakash" Subject: RE: re to Dallas . . .TALK and THINING -- Metaphysics Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:04:25 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <3D50063F.BD853FC0@idirect.ca> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 6 2002 Re Talk and Thinking Who does what ? How does Maya discuss things with MAYA ? Dear Friends: Lets get behind words to ideas. Ideas are not hampered by words, language and definitions. Theosophy deals with great ideas. Can we not try to understand the principles offered? Certainly there is Maya and Illusion. But those are not serious obstacles, since if they are recognized, then logically there is THAT which is NOT maya and is not subject to illusion. Theosophy starts with that, and recognizes that everything else is a variable expression of THAT ONE PRIMAL SOURCE. yet in the infinite inter-actions of temporary objects and modes of thought or feeling, there is constantly arising an increasing certainty of individual stability and permanence. The sense of "I" or Ego, the Inner Self that we know we are, does not vanish because of words or illogic. If that is true, then why is it so. Can we recognize it? Where does it lead ? What is being developed by the process of reincarnation ? Words lead nowhere if they do not lead to meaning. As said in an earlier post: No choice -- NO EGO. But we observe we are always choosing. So, is there not an "ego," a sense of self, that chooses, that asks questions and seeks answers? Does that (by whatever name) disappear and if so where to? I don't see where experience acquired is wiped out with no gain or purpose. In all our experience with the secret workings of Nature, there is not to be seen anything that is purposeless or lawless. If Law and Laws prevail, then why ? How do we get to prove anything? Review the sayings, ideas and injunctions offered by great Minds -- by Prophets and Seers, by those who founded philosophical schools or great Religions: Do any on them hold that life is without purpose? On the contrary they unanimously declare there is PURPOSE nd MEANING to everything that ay being high or low does. We have significance. Can we determine what we Are, AND WHAT WE CAN DO ? Or, are we to be plunged back to wordy wranglings? Best wishes, Dal ================== -----Original Message----- From: M Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:24 AM To: Subject: to Dallas . . . Dallas wrote: <> I thought that we sort of established that the "atma-buddhi monad" was kind of "APPARENTLY esoteric," in a sense, comparatively, exoterically speaking . . . but surely there's "a more relevant issue" about the meaning of "esoteric" that might interest some Theosophists, as per, for example, on Theos-1, Re to Mauri - Esoteric, Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:49:33 -. Here's an excerpts from that post by Gerald: <>>> I suspect that some texts might often appeal to those who might have a problem with some "more relevant" way of "looking within themself." Not that there's anything wrong with exoteric studies, particularly . . . but/"but" . . . I suspect that people in general tend to have a certain sense of "essential relevance" (say?), in various/interpretive ways, that's basically "experientially based" (whether it's perceived so or not?) in the sense that only the reality of direct experience "will do" re such as "spirituality" re such as atma/buddhi, monadic, Monad, (precisely because such concepts are "too esoteric" and too "far out" to "understand about" other then by direct experience) . . . So, in a sense, that kind of perceived "relevance" isn't (as I see it) "particularly related" to the kind of mindset that's generally associated with (?) words such as <> since (while the "amount" of "esotericism" "re" such as atma-buddhi is not likely generally in question?) the "esoteric," itself, in the sense of actual/experienctial as in "mystical," is not possible to even describe with words (as we seem to have been rather repeatedly told!?)---though some words "ABOUT" ways and means, models, Theosophies, etc. (re "exoteric aspects") might be seen as "helpful" in some sense (which kind of "help" is, really, as I see it, rather intermediary/exoteric, and, often (?), tends to get "somewhat far too intermediary," in a way, to the extent that some students might tend to get turned off by what they might see as contradictory fare?) . . . After all, there wuld SEEM to be (?) some people (even "students"?) out there who might have a "thing" about things that don't "SEEM" to fit . . . So, in the interest of "perceived applicability," one might . . . whatever . . . Speculatively, M From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 17:06:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 44315 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 00:06:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 00:06:57 -0000 Received: from pool0322.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.67] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cELn-0003eu-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:06:55 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:04:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 6 2002 Dear Alessi and Friends: The adoption of the "right" and "left" hand as illustrations of the direction of Magic seems to be more an age-old convention than anything else, although at root it may have a deeper meaning. All planes and states of action or of consciousness seem to consist of contrasting pairs. Over them, so to say, is their Source or the "modifier." Few in these days agree that there is a moral/ethical set of pairs -- the balance of a law of equity represented by the "scales of justice." Many are brought up in the concept that evil can be done, and then if no one notices, the evil-doer profits. It can be overwhelming if the evil is exposed to public view. But innate in this concept, is the idea that there is a justice in the world. And this justice cannot be subverted or obstructed. Confession, remission of sins, repentance, remorse, etc... do not make the ill done to the victims any better. Only a restitution does that. Apparently Nature has this well in hand, and we ought to get the idea that the power of omniscience attributed to "God" is everywhere active. But it is not immediately clear how or when it acts. Therefore for some the hope of : "escape from consequences" appeals. It is probably on this basis that all priestly authority rests. Most people are "right-handed," A fewer number are "left-handed" and still fewer are truly ambidextrous. If we look in The SECRET DOCTRINE we find this tradition is ancient. Apparently the rules and laws of the secrets of Nature have always been known to wise men. some apparently split in terms of application. There are those called "right-hand Adepts" who practice and teach brotherhood. In terms of their work they support evolution and take and active part in assisting the educational advance of mankind and Natures' progress in general. Their work is to support and construct -- and among their number we may thin of the Buddha, Krishna, Rama, Jesus, Osiris, Isis, Zoroaster, Confucius, Lao Tze, Pythagoras, Plato, Bruno, H P B. They teach Theosophy. The Adept of the "left-hand" path have equal knowledge, but they are isolated and selfish and work solely for their own benefit. They are destroyers and oppose the advance of Nature and of humanity. They act as the counter weight to the work of the White adepts. Among their number are the great nihilists and destroyers of peoples -- Alexander, Genghis Khan, Caliph Omar, etc., etc... Well that gives an idea of the difference Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: alessifedor [mailto:alessifedor@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:34 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White This discussion regarding the left or the right intrigued me. There are many shades of gray regarding the "right" path, relatively speaking. Who's to say that the right-handed path is not really the left-handed path or vice-versa? What is your reasoning for saying that the left-handed path is a valid path if it leads to a more delusional state of mind? Isn't that the path of insanity? How is it that the right-handed path can lead to confusion? Perhaps, those who are in confusion on the right-handed path are really on the left-handed path. A sure-footed fanatic who thinks he is on the right-handed path may not be where he thinks he is at. I would like to know what you think of my questions. Regards, Alessi Fedorowicz --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > While Blavatsky was a major proponent of the "right-hand path", that > does not make it the only valid path; it's mainly that, if one takes the > so-called "left-hand path," it's far easier to become fooled by the > desires that are contained in the physical, ephemeral part of the human > body than the "right-hand path." But note those who, in confusion, go so > far out on the right-hand path that they end up hurting themselves > without helping others, which is just as bad. > > Bart Lidofsky Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 06 17:28:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 00:28:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 10323 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 00:28:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 00:28:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 00:28:10 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.31] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cEgL-0000Bg-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:28:09 -0700 To: Subject: RE: : Left and Right, Black and White Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:25:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 6 2002 Dear friends: Re: LEFT AND RIGHT HAND KNOWLEDGE nd USE As I understand it, the whole potential of knowledge and wisdom that can be gained from the study of Nature and her processes, will only be useful if it is applied in daily life to help and serve others. We learn so as to be better able to "help and teach others." If we have ay o=there motive it is selfish and that is the beginning of the "downward path" as the Buddha might say. (see DHAMMAPADA -- Canto of THE DOWNWARD COURSE) "He who reports what happened not goes to hell, also he who having done a thing says: "I did it not." ...[those who] are ill-natured and uncontrolled ... wicked and unrestrained ... eating the food of the state ....court another man's wife .... act carelessly, keep vows poorly ... go to hell If anything is to be done, let a man attack it unflinchingly. A lax ascetic scatters more and more the dust of his passions. (and so on ) " Hence the emphasis in Theosophy on Brotherhood as the best expression of true and useful aspirations. Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: a f Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:06 PM To: Subject: Left and Right, Black and White I was hoping someone would mention selflessness and selfishness. Rush Limbaugh whom some think as a "hero to the selfish" might be considered to be on the left-handed path even though he thinks he's doing the right thing. Thanks, A F --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > To answer your questions it would help if we defined the "right hand path" > simply as the path of selflessness and compassion for the welfare of others > -- and the "left hand path" as the path of selfishness and unconcern for the > welfare of others. From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Aug 06 18:02:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 01:02:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 43571 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 01:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 01:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 01:02:10 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cFDF-00043l-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:02:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5071DF.53DD615E@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:03:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Left and Right, Black and White References: <81.1f8475d6.2a818e37@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > To answer your questions it would help if we defined the "right hand path" > simply as the path of selflessness and compassion for the welfare of others > -- and the "left hand path" as the path of selfishness and unconcern for the > welfare of others. Spoken like a true partisan. While your definitions, speaking from strict definitions, might be considered valid, they use certain loaded terms which carry connotations which are not valid at all. Because, ultimately, the right hand path and the left hand path end up in the same place. In the right hand path, one's concern is for the evolution of humanity as a whole, and one's actions are geared in that direction. In the left hand path, one's concern is for the evolution of one's self. In that regard, what happens to others is, in the short run, irrelevant. But as one evolves, one has better recognition of universal principles, and therefore would generally act towards the welfare of others, if for no other reason than it speeds up one's own evolution. As I had mentioned, due to the concentration on self, the left-hand path contains a much greater temptation for self-delusion; confusing the lower 4 principles for the upper 3. When that happens, it can lead to what is commonly termed "evil." But that doesn't mean that such temptation does not exist in the right-hand path; there are people out there who, through religious beliefs, participate in actions that also may be referred to as "evil," even though, in their minds, they are working for the good of humanity. For example, there is a strong group (especially in the faculty of many colleges) who sincerely believe that if Western Civilization were destroyed, then a Communist paradise would arise from its ashes, and greed and other forms of selfishness would disappear from humanity. They therefore work to create hatred and war, all in the name of the good of humanity. Hell, we even have representatives of them right here in this group. > As the Buddha said, > "Everything we are is the result of what we have thought -- and everything > we will become is the result of what we are thinking now." Didn't Buddha also advocate taking some sort of "middle path?" Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Tue Aug 06 19:59:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 02:59:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 16117 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 02:59:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 02:59:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 02:59:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2002 02:59:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:59:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ian's Latest remarks about SD Vol III Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <019a01c23bd4$32ea0be0$c1de883e@u0z2y2> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1736 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.225 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ian, you wrote: "Hello Daniel, I cannot fault your logic. I agree with you that what was Vol I became Vol III. Are you saying that there is an existing manuscript of this Vol III preserved in the Adyar Archives ? That Vol III actually exists but has not been yet published ? If this is so, why did GRS Mead not refer to it ? This is the crucial question. We are looking for Vol III. If you are saying that it exists in Adyar then our quest is over. What I thought everyone was saying is lost, is not. It's in Adyar, but not yet published. Is this what you are saying ?" Ian, what I'm trying to say is that there is in the Adyar Archives Vol I of the SD manuscript from 1886. Look at the contents at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm In mid-1887, this volume I became volume III. Therefore Volume I in the Adyar Archives is "in effect" Volume III. The chart above shows in the 2nd column the contents of volume I from 1886. All of this material (with 3 exceptions) showed up in the published volume III of 1897. Why? My answer is: because Volume I of 1886 became Volume III of 1887. Please remember that to handwrite a manuscript in the 1880s was a laborious task. And to make one copy of it in longhand was an equally laborious task. Therefore it is highly unlikely that there were multiple copies of the same articles. Yet the articles found in the 1886 Volume I show up in the 1897 Volume III. I'll let you and Dallas ponder on this. Comments appreciated. I hope Dallas will focus in on this point and make some comments. I will write something later on your observations about G.R.S. Mead. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Aug 06 21:01:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 04:01:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 48309 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 04:01:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 04:01:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 04:01:18 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.cf.1b074a66 (3932) for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:01:13 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World why a woman? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/6/02 5:37:36 PM Central Daylight Time, micforster@yahoo.com writes: << Would we be still studying the SD if, say, WQJ delivered it instead of HPB? >> Probably not, not because HPB was a woman, but because Judge was a crashing bore and HPB was nothing if not interesting. Chuck From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Aug 07 05:51:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 7 Aug 2002 12:51:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 89234 invoked from network); 7 Aug 2002 12:51:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Aug 2002 12:51:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2002 12:51:54 -0000 Received: from pool0175.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.175] helo=earthlink) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQH2-0002d0-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:50:48 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World Ian's Latest remarks about SD Vol III Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 05:48:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 7 2002 Re: Contents of SECRET DOCTRINE MSS of 1886 sent to Adyar as Vol I and Volume THREE of The SECRET DOCTRINE 1897. Dear Dan: I rise to your query (see below). So let me offer the following thoughts. >From H P B's correspondence with Sinnett, and the notes made by countess Wachmeister ( I am depending on memory ), this 1886 MSS copy of "Vol. I of The SECRET DOCTRINE" as H P B had written it up to then, was sent to Adyar for Olcott to place before Subba Row for his editing and comments. I noticed that included in those 1886 MSS were parts of what later became in Vol. I the INTRODUCTORY and the PROEM. Apparently their prefatory nature demanded that they be so used. (I have not recently gone over the THIRD Vol. of The SECRET DOCTRINE, so, as I do not have enough time, I am not able to comment on a point to point basis -- but only tell you in general of what my memory recalls. You will have to excuse any inaccuracies I make here on that account.) Subba Row refused, as he felt that too much of the secrets of Occultism were being reveled. He apparently, only looked on H P B as his co-student, an vies]wed her writing as entirely what a student might write -- in other words, he did not recognize the "Masters hand" there. As I say, he did not realize that the Masters were themselves changing the scheme of presentation, and that H PB was "following instructions." The questions evoked as a result of the publication of ISIS UNVEILED, and the articles in THEOSOPHIST, demanded the revelation of much more information for the educated and interested public to absorb. [ I would go so far as to say that the Masters foresaw that eventually their correspondence with Sinnett would be published and made available for the public to compare with the books and articles of H P B. To me it is highly significant that such comparison reveals a unity of concept, information, and method. The implied ethics are of the highest.] The S D MSS (1886) was not returned to H P B, but was kept in Adyar and it became a part of their archives. So, to me the differences are accounted for, and the source for some fragments of the material that Mrs. A. Besant published as the THIRD VOLUME (1897) is discovered. To me, that is an incomplete attempt to place together a disjointed mixture of published and unpublished material and, after untraceable editing, place H P B's name on it -- as a kind of novelty. After Judge's death (1896), it gave Mrs. A. Besant a "boost" that could not be easily refuted -- but I may be over-characterizing here, in this, my personal opinion. H P B went to England with the original MSS (1887), and (I presume), she made her additions (then and later) to it. She placed it (all 3 volumes) before the Keightleys. They read and studied it and suggested that the scheme of publication be changed. They suggested that Vol. I be COSMOGENESIS, Vol. 2 be ANTHROPOGENESIS, and Vol. 3 be the History of Great Adepts. As a result we have the 1888 Edition in 2 volumes. COSMOGENESIS and ANTHROPOGENESIS based on the Stanzas that were selected from the BOOK OF DZYAN, for explanation. A totally untraceable language (Senzar) and a totally (hitherto) untraceable Book: of Dzyan -- even the Tibetan, and the Sanskrit translations are yet to be found. The publication of Vol. 3 was not undertaken up to the time of Mme. H. P. Blavatsky 's death in May 1891. Mr. Judge her executor cabled on hearing of her death asking that her room be sealed pending his arrival in London. At the time of her death (May 8th), Mrs. Annie Besant was at sea, on a liner returning to England. Mr. Judge says nothing that I know about the MSS for the THIRD Volume of The SECRET DOCTRINE being in her rooms. The MSS of the 3rd Volume may have been altered by H P B. I don't recall anything definite about that being available. I would not assume that the 3rd VOLUME of The SECRET DOCTRINE edited by Mrs. Annie Besant, and published in 1897 (after W Q Judge's death in 1896) -- which included the material sent to Adyar, and other things, represented the THIRD VOLUME OF The SECRET DOCTRINE as H P B would have edited and published it. If that is assumed then indeed we are stretching things. 1. We do not know if H P B modified the material sent in 1886 to Adyar after that date. I would assume she did, but of course, I have no concrete basis to offer. It is my opinion after many years study. 2. If modified, and I assume it was, then why was it never produced or mentioned clearly by Judge, her executor, the Keightleys, or Mead ? After H P B's death, some of the MSS of articles in her "desk" were published in LUCIFER. But nothing was said about the MSS of the THIRD VOLUME being considered or edited for possible publication later on. This omission is to me significant. I would have thought that this would be of primary importance then (in 1891). 3. If, as H P B said, it was to be a history of the Great Adepts, then the material published in 1897 as the THIRD VOLUME S D does not seem to exactly or completely agree with the scheme as outlined by H P B and referred to in several places in Vols. I and II. 4. Why should H P B use only the MSS that was sent to Adyar ? Why would she not have added to it? She wrote that it was READY. So she must have prepared a great deal of written MSS for that purpose. 5. She added that the MSS for the FOURTH VOLUME was almost ready. What happened to that ? Why was that not added to the publication ? Why did it receive no mention ? I have pondered these things, and arrived at no conclusion beyond being satisfied that it takes more than one long lifetime to adequately study even the first TWO VOLUMES of The SECRET DOCTRINE (not to mention the information made available in ISIS UNVEILED). It would be very strange to find a THIRD VOLUME of the S D emerging after such a substantial gap in time. No one seems to think or mention that. There is enough there (in Vols. I & II) for several lives of intense study. Many lacunae of the "past" seem to be filled if one takes all of that which H P B writes seriously (books, articles, answers, observations, foot-notes, letters, etc... To me there is obvious a single trend, a single purpose, and an undeviating presentation of the philosophy which is named: "Theosophy." But Academia has its blinders in place. And as time passes there are many corroborations of what H P B wrote about, constantly coming in that support H P B's presentation as in Vols. I & II. Academia has never treated H P B's SECRET DOCTRINE seriously as an assistance in securing a better grasp of pre-history, the history of past civilizations and the emergence of Man as a thinking, intelligent being, also, the distribution of religious thought and instruction, and the unity of ethical and moral teachings to be traced in them all, etc... The panorama of "Creation / Evolution," and the scheme offered in The SECRET DOCTRINE, of the evolution of the Cosmos, and, of the development of mankind on our Earth, have not been considered seriously or consecutively as a basis for research -- too much protection of theories, and a concealment and cover-up of facts and relicts is evident. Academia has sought to protect itself from adjustments that would truly rationalize the gaps they are still faced with. The theories and hypotheses that have been placed and placed before new students as "truths," are constantly being defended as factual evidence of their inaccuracy is discovered and comes to the fore. Few seem interested in recording or pointing to this. The case of Emanuel Velikovsky, and his writings in the 40s and 50s; and the pressure placed on Macmillan Publishers is known but to a few these days. But that illustrates how Academia can provide, and force, a "cover-up." If we write, so as to satisfy Academia and their prejudices, we fail to grasp the wide panorama offered by Theosophy. To my mind Academia can creep at its own snail pace --- it is still a babe, born in the time of the Reformation -- of only 300-400 years of age, and is gradually freeing itself of the burden of Church dogmas, short-term views and self-serving attitudes, which are some 2,000 years old. It is important to recognize that our Western academies are Western -- they do not encompass the world and its past, nor are they capable of impartially arbitrating on its past or the nature of other cultures in an unprejudiced fashion. It is a child of the West, of European, and now, of American development, and it fails to recognize that its new-found freedom is one that has been enjoyed for centuries, millennia, by the Oriental scholars and scientists of India, China, Tibet, Mongolia, etc... But (our Western Academia) will continue to creep, as long as the literal interpretation of the Bible and its many conflicting and confusing translations are taken as a basis for serious consideration -- as a blurred view of pre-history. And, for as long as Academia insists on the teaching of theories of evolution and cosmogenesis, as though they were proven and demonstrable facts. Who dares challenge her ? We all know that the Jewish traditions and the Kabalah are couched in terms that truly underlie the superficial and apparent writings. Who seeks seriously to follow the lead of ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE to really unravel the secrets of the Kabalah and the Zohar ? Who has traced their sources? Has the work of the orientalists led them from those mangled and reconstructed texts to the "Kabala of the Orient?" What was that ? [ See S D I pp. 8 to 11, and particularly note at the top of p. 11 what H P B says about the "revenge" of the Rabbis. (other references to this are S D I xli, 115fn, 319, 390, II 471, 537 ) ] So long as sectarianism and religious dogmas fetter minds, so long will there be confusion. So long as students kowtow to the pronouncements of Academia, that confusion will deepen. Literalism, to me, is a "snare and a delusion." But I recognize, for some, there is no other pathway. In my opinion, Academia will never be satisfied, nor deign to actually consider Theosophy seriously and the record of HISTORY, which The SECRET DOCTRINE displays ( S D I 267 line 4 from the top ). H P B writes of the aim of her work at the bottom of p. viii (S D I - Preface), she additionally states positively on p. 23 (bottom, S D I ) "...this work is written for the instruction of students of Occultism and not for the benefit of philologists...." I assume this includes Academics, Orientalists, Scientists, and those who tie themselves to literal and superficial understandings, and seek to bind everyone else (by fear) to their "authority." Those who don't study for themselves and maintain their own conclusions, fall under this misapprehension, that the Academies are the sole possessors of Truth. I am firmly convinced there are depths of instruction in The SECRET DOCTRINE; but it will always be the task of individual students to discover those. Keeping the book shut and unstudied, does not add to any one's store of information. If anyone desires to be considered a "Theosophist" then such study is recommended. They will then frame their own opinions and, what I may think and say, or what you may say or do, is not going to affect them. We cannot "convince" any one. The only conviction of any value is that which arises from self-effort and study. I think this freedom is innate in all human minds. It is exemplified by the universal power to choose. Egoity implies choice. No Ego -- no choice. Choice -- Ego is there. The test is it the application. The first hurdle is: Is the concept of Spirit-universality and of Soul-immortality a possibility, nay -- an actuality The next is: If that is true, their reincarnation is possible. The third is ethical responsibility: It is a code impersonal and impartial that everyone can live (that is: Is Karma a fact? Are ethics and morals real?) so as to make those useful in one's own life. For this no mentor is needed. But it requires very deep thinking. But I see I have diverged from your main query, although to me there is an important relation ,if one desires to understand H P B's intent and also perceive what others may have done to her writings by presuming to alter them. I have noticed that H P B attributes to the Masters of Wisdom most of her "writings." she calls herself a "scribe," a "copier." She offers her works as one offers "culled flowers - created by Nature, but gathered and offered to others for their enjoyment. Not sequestered and concealed and hidden from the rest of mankind. In this is a lesson: To serve and to give. If that is true then in The SECRET DOCTRINE and in ISIS UNVEILED and in her articles, footnotes, letters may be traced the "Master hand." But this self-effacement is not a pretense in her, nor is her attitude a posture. I sense it is a recognition of the fact that interior to everyone of us is the "Master" -- Krishna calls it Ishwara, and says that it is immortal and one with the universal SPIRIT. Perhaps this is important. Best wishes, Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: danielhcaldwell [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:59 PM To: Subject Ian's Latest remarks about SD Vol III Ian, you wrote: "Hello Daniel, I cannot fault your logic. I agree with you that what was Vol I became Vol III. Are you saying that there is an existing manuscript of this Vol III preserved in the Adyar Archives ? That Vol III actually exists but has not been yet published ? If this is so, why did GRS Mead not refer to it ? This is the crucial question. We are looking for Vol III. If you are saying that it exists in Adyar then our quest is over. What I thought everyone was saying is lost, is not. It's in Adyar, but not yet published. Is this what you are saying ?" Ian, what I'm trying to say is that there is in the Adyar Archives Vol I of the SD manuscript from 1886. Look at the contents at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm In mid-1887, this volume I became volume III. Therefore Volume I in the Adyar Archives is "in effect" Volume III. The chart above shows in the 2nd column the contents of volume I from 1886. All of this material (with 3 exceptions) showed up in the published volume III of 1897. Why? My answer is: because Volume I of 1886 became Volume III of 1887. Please remember that to handwrite a manuscript in the 1880s was a laborious task. And to make one copy of it in longhand was an equally laborious task. Therefore it is highly unlikely that there were multiple copies of the same articles. Yet the articles found in the 1886 Volume I show up in the 1897 Volume III. I'll let you and Dallas ponder on this. Comments appreciated. I hope Dallas will focus in on this point and make some comments. I will write something later on your observations about G.R.S. Mead. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm CUT From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Aug 07 23:36:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Aug 2002 06:36:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 72238 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 06:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2002 06:36:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2002 06:36:43 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout04.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I00IHRID6HM@mtaout04.icomcast.net>; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:36:07 -0500 Subject: "KERNELS OF WISDOM" (10-part series) To: compiler@wisdomworld.org Message-id: <3D521F67.42009338@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that this series of articles proves to be very informative and helpful to everyone. ============================================== [The 1st link is to the Index page which contains the links to all 10 articles. If it's broken, the 2nd link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page, entitled "Newcomers: You Can't Go Wrong Starting Here!", where you will see the link to its Index page.] ----------------------------------------------- KERNELS OF WISDOM (10-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/KernelsOfWisdom-Series/index.html http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#1 ================================================== John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 08 09:38:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Aug 2002 16:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 31733 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 16:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2002 16:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.176) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2002 16:38:54 -0000 Received: from modem-1547.lemur.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.134.11] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17cqJJ-0008Uu-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:38:53 +0100 Message-ID: <001b01c23efa$7fd7f240$99bf87d9@u0z2y2> To: "Theostalk" Subject: Blavatsky eBay Auction Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:37:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae I see that auction of HPB photograph and documents has now ended with a final price of $158. Was it someone in this group who won the auction ? Orra Best, Ian From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Aug 08 13:12:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 8 Aug 2002 20:12:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 71673 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 20:12:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2002 20:12:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Aug 2002 20:12:04 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.19c.6a39a3d (1320) for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19c.6a39a3d.2a842a84@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:11:48 EDT Subject: Science and theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For those interested in the scientific view of theosophy (or the theosophical view of science), I thought you might be interested in this recent discussion posted on one of the scientific forums studying consciousness and mind. (SCR-NewsViews@yahoogroups.com) LHM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- In a message dated 08/06/02 4:16:40 PM, Dr.d@MegaSociety.net writes: >LeonM., excellent defense of your idea, can you elaborate further on the >rules governing "holosynchronicity". Dr.d We might say -- in considering the idea that consciousness and matter are simultaneously originated, or as the Buddhists say, "dependently arisen" (or more accurately "interdependently ...") -- that the resultant universe of both material forms and the contents of consciousness are forever interconnected and thereby mutually holographic in nature. e.g.; The holographic fields of energy that constitute the metric forms of matter arising from the initial "spinergy" (or angular momenta of the primal pre-Cosmic zero-point singularity) and the multidimensional non-metric fields of descending frequency orders of energy that constitute memory and mind fields (of differing degrees or frequency-phase orders on both the cosmic and human levels) emanating or involving out of this spinergy -- are all "coadunate" and "coenergetic" (but not consubstantial). i.e.; These fields, being multidimensional and generated, one out of the other, in triple cycle spherical forms, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles (ref: Superstring/M-brane theories) --all obey the same laws of "electricity" (such as periodicity, cycles, harmony, capacitance, inductance, resonance, holography, etc.). And, therefore, they receive and maintain their holographic images, as well as transfer those images from one coadunate field to another, in accordance with such laws. [See my ABC web site for a further explanation of how these processes relate to visual perception -- as well as how holographic imagery is transformed and transferred from the sense organs to the brain, and from there to the mind and memory, and finally to the perceptive awareness, and how this process is essentially reversible when empowered by willful intent -- also inherent in the zero-point.] Since these essentially "electrical" processes are inherent in the nature of such fields and operate automatically with respect to the transfer of information (or contents of consciousness) from the senses to the brain, and thence to the mind and memory fields by holographic means -- we could refer to this entire gestalt as a form of auto-"holosynchronicity." Of course, this also implies that; What we experience as "awareness" of the image content of these fields would have to be entirely outside of time and space -- as well as be the inherent nature of the zero-point of cosmic origination (along with all reflected zero-points that are ubiquitous throughout the final stage of our metric space time continuum)... And, therefore, entirely subjective and beyond the purview of reductive material science. Such "reflected" points would be the centers of all such coadunate fields, and also "appear" at their adjoining junctures of energy transference from one field phase to another (i.e., at the extreme ends of their respective "electromagnetic" frequency spectrums). Note that from a multidimensional geometric-topological point of view, all such spherical coenergetic fields, composed of lines of force spinning and spiraling out from the zero point spinergy must, in essence, be triple in nature -- appearing in 2-D cross section (at any level of involution) as two adjacent circles within a surrounding circle... With each inner circle becoming in themselves, similarly triune -- ad infinitum. These points, incidentally, are where total "quantum" random indeterminacy would occur on any micro-or macrocosmic level; As such zero-points would be devoid of determinate holographic field information (which could rest only in the interference patterns of the wave forms themselves of each coenergetic field). But, they would retain the transferred holographic "information" (or contents of consciousness) encoded in the analogous interference patterns of the zero-point's infinite degrees of angular momenta (or "spinergy"). This would mean that no knowledge, information or contents of consciousness can ever be lost -- even when both the concrete matter and the less substantial consciousness fields (dual mind, dual memory, etc.,) ultimately resolve back (as the initial energy of the spinergy eventually runs down due, perhaps, to entropic counter forces of what can only be called "friction" between the image patterns of one field against that of adjacent fields) into their pre-Cosmic state at the end if the Cosmic cycle of existence, or when a conscious being dies, or when a material form is dissipated or resolved into its elements, and they, in turn, resolve into their "sub-elements" -- ad infinitum. We could say, then, if all this is the true nature of existence, that the ten dency of spirit or consciousness (as awareness) is to materialize, and the tendency of matter is to spirituals (or become aware). This tendency could be called the "auto-synchronous" process that drives all involution of "consciousness" or Spirit which "in-forms" and guides the evolution of matter -- which, in turn, expresses or "out-forms" the involution of consciousness. Thus, being mutually interdependent, matter feeds on consciousness and consciousness feeds on matter. It follows that such "holo-synchronicity" would be the fundamental nature all existence -- which would include matter, its forms and its imagery (as holographic patterns of the energy of its accompanying coadunate and coenergetic fields) as well as its qualia or experiences of consciousness -- as the inherent nature of their all too "real" coadunate zero-points. (This might also explain the "action at a distance" as argued by Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen.) The only "illusion," then, would be the mistaken belief or false conception that the metric physical world (that we can only experience secondarily through the transformative path through our senses, brain, mind and memory fields) is the only reality. Thus, the universe could be considered as a cosmic "soup" in which all the raw ingredients, while capable of being cooked, never lose their essential individual beness, essence, or things in themselves. This includes both material forms as well as the wave-patterned "contents of consciousness" -- which could be considered as things, but occurring in different frequency-energy phase states of multidimensional existence... And, would also include the experiences of consciousness related to these "things" -- since the zero-points with their inherent absolute awareness would always remain as the unchanging roots of everything changeable. Following the laws of harmony, these multidimensional space-phase state relationships of matter fields and their higher order images would be geometrically analogous to the nature of musical notes and octaves on a grand, although subtly transcendent, scale... The "Harmony of the Sphere's," so to speak, as noted by the ancient alchemists -- whose "philosophers stone" was simply the symbol of the knowledge that all "things" were both material (substance) and conscious (Spirit) -- although existing on various levels or phases of substantiality and conscious awareness -- gained by long experience through infinitudes of evolutionary changes and growing complexities of form. Humanity stands at the highest level where we become finally conscious of our own consciousness and, ultimately, can merge our awareness with that of the initial causeless cause, primal singularity, or impersonal godhead... The "return to Eden," so to speak. And, thus, the circle of our worldly existence is closed (or asleep)... To awaken again at a higher level of awareness at the next cycle of evolution and involution -- eternally empowered by the dual gravitational and anti-gravitatonal forces of reality (repulsion and attraction, push and pull, etc.), as they periodically (cyclicly and autosychronously') balance and unbalance. Leon Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: leonmaurer@aol.com > To: SCR-NewsViews@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:16 AM > Subject: Re: [SCR-NewsViews] Cream of Consciousness Soup > > If I may comment below... > > In a message dated 07/14/02 3:00:12 AM, stonjek@ozemail.com.au writes: > > >Angell O. de la Sierra: > >I am sure you realize your model is premised upon the structure of a > >hypercomplex reflex arc. At completion you will have told the story of > >life, death and passions of your robot. I wish I could be more successful > >in convincing bright minds like yours to take a quick look at least outside > >the "easy problem" of awareness (first order consciousness) to realize > >that knowledge about self-consciousness will NOT emerge, even asympt- > >otically, the better we get at understanding the 'easy problem'. I find Ms. > >Jane's whole body holographic approach most pertinent and yet sort of > >dismissed as irrelevant to 'consciousness' by other members of the list. > > > >RKS: > >Thanks Dr.d (abbreviation as on your web page). My model was only meant > >to demonstrate that adding an evolutionary vector to models of consciousness > >could not only make them more comprehensible, substantial, and offer an > >empirical grounding, but that some of the branches of consciousness study > >that are still very much out on their own can be brought closer into a > >single model. > > Unfortunately, none of the models based on the idea that consciousness > evolves out of the complexity of matter will ever be consistent with those > models that assume consciousness (in its fundamental attribute of awareness) > is an a-priori aspect of universal origin along with, or even preceding, > matter... And that both are full blown in their potential at the > "beginning"... And, the only thing that evolves are the *forms* of matter and > the *contents* of (or universal knowledge gained by) consciousness -- in the > long, interdependent, side by side involutionary and evolutionary processing > of both matter and consciousness simultaneously. e.g., As consciousness > gains more intricate knowledge, matter gains greater complexity and diversity > of form. We might call this process "holosychronicity." > > >If AI researchers, for instance, look at an evolving consciousness rather > >than a set of instructions that emulate consciousness then we may end up > >with a conscious or conscious-like computer that follows the same evolutionary > >vector that we do. In other words, the AI model that comes onto the market > >right after the AI computer that is 'just like a human' will be like a > >future human, not just a faster, smarter computer. > > Not If consciousness per se does not evolve, but precedes matter and > involves within it... Then, such a course of robotic development can only lead > to further and further diversion between consciously feeling humans and > non-feeling and non conscious, ultra-smart robots that will eventually, > through their technological manipulations of matter, take over all the > calculational, computational and constructional chores of mankind... And then > it, as a whole, can finally get back to the simplicity of living together in > peace, brotherhood and prosperity -- in accordance with natural processes > and experiencing uplifting human feelings that no computer-robot (working > its ass off 24 hours a day :-) will ever be able to emulate. > > >'Holographic' is a word that has become popular, but the phenomena that > >it refers to in the minds of those using the term for describing consciousness > >is quite different from the word as used to describe simple three dimensional > >imagery using the interference patterns of coherent light. > > Holographic, as used (in the model based on consciousness and matter as a > fundamental a priori unity) to describe the "contents" of consciousness, or > the 3-D "images" we see, singularly, in our mind's eye, operates under the > identical principles (in the higher order field of visual consciousness) as > "the interference patters of coherent light" on the space-time continuum > field. The only difference is that the frequency order or phase of such > inner light is on a level of one of the higher enfolded fifth or higher > zero-point fields similar to those postulated mathematically by > Superstring/M-brane theories, and logically arrived at (by analogy and > correspondence) in my ABC Theory... This theory assumes all such fields > begin at a primal zero-point "singularity" that emanates its energy spirally > outward from its primal *spinergy* (of infinite potential angular momentum > or potential energy) into multidimensional fields of descending orders of > frequency, radiant energy, magnetism, and mass-energy... With Time, being > a variable measure of change in all such fields beginning with its first > infinitesimal instant of near infinite frequency in the highest field of > consciousness, and descending to the lowest gravitational frequency wave > of our space time continuum. > > >My 'soup' analogy is closer to the consciousness version. Consider the > >cauldron over the open fire. Into it we place various ingredients - carrots, > >potato, herbs and spices, etc. Let the soup be 'Cream of Consciousness'. > > > >On the one side we have clearly separate and highly detailed (to the observer) > >ingredients that seem unrelated. On the other side we have a bowl of soup > >that has the essence of all the ingredients. On one side, every bit of > >the ingredients are different to look at. On the other, every bowl of > >soup is the same. > > > >Well, not quite the same for consciousness. The soup changes with time. > > The combining of any two sensory inputs follows the high resolution, highly > >detailed input and the vague global output. The hyper complex reflex arc > >is how the simple brain makes sense of this soup. It learns what 'tastes' > >good. Any new ingredient (new sense) simply changes the flavour slightly > >for the next generation. > > > >But there is really no limit to this combining. A few sensors in the Aplysia, > >or all the sensors and effectors of a human. To continue the analogy, > >by placing a bowl of the last soup brewed in with the ingredients of the > >next batch, we have the required feedback. > > > >In a real brain, the highest level of blending is too vague to be of any > >real use in a moment to moment consciousness except as a background > > feeling. But one can see that regardless of how highly detailed and elaborate > >the input - one small bowl tells the whole story! > > Unfortunately, this is a false analogy, since the experience of consciousness > or qualia in the tasting of each raw ingredient that went in the soup, could > never be added up to the experience of consciousness related to the tasting > of the final cooked soup. > > Kind Regards, > > Leon Maurer From micforster@yahoo.com Thu Aug 08 18:25:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 01:25:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 68820 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 01:25:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 01:25:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 01:25:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020809012536.9873.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.94.6.28] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:25:36 PDT Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: as above so below To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609162715.009f3e70@theosophy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Alder was walking down the street, somewhat distracted from the events in his previous night's sleep. He did not have some exotic relationship with a female, nor did he fend of a midnight intruder. Rather, Alder had a perplexing dream which left him, as I said before, somewhat distracted. The dream Alder had was a recurring dream. He first had it when he was about six, well, at any rate, this was the first time he could remember having the dream. There was nothing too extravagent to this dream, there was no monster chasing Alder down the hallway or fears of falling off tall buildings. Simply, Alder found himself standing before something immensley huge, larger than the universe itself. The size of this entity, an entity Alder could not discern, was truly overwhelming. To try and to comprehend it all at once was simply unfathomable. Just as Alder was coming to terms with this entity it quickly inverted itself and became, in an instant, an entity that was immeasureably small. So small in fact that Alder felt like the previous gigantic entity. It was smaller than a pin prick, smaller than a cell, smaller, indeed, than an atom itself. This entity was so incomprehensibly small that it hurt Alder's mind simply contemplating it. So that was it, that was the dream. Alder standing in something big, then Alder standing in front of something tiny. Simple. Too simple in fact. The dream was so simple that Alder was sure that there was some hidden meaning to it all. And the fact that it had been recurring to him for the last twenty years made it even that more perplexing. So what was Alder to do? Already had he consulted those new age spiritual dream books, though they were of no help. Already had he consulted a psychologist, at great expense, who told him that the dream was a manifestation of Alder's insecurity of becoming an adult and his desire to once again be a child. This, too, was most unsatisfactory. Alder enjoyed adulthood, indeed relished in it. The freedom that adulthood afforded one was much too pleasureable to return to the suppression of childhood. So what, then, was Alder to do? Well on this day that Alder was walking down the street, somewhat distracted, he accidently knocked into an elderly lady. This lady was short in stature, stout is a most appropriate term, with an expression on her face that would have been sterotypical of an kindly old lady in a child's fairy tale. She wore a scarf about her head and sort the assistance of a cane. Fortunately it was this cane that prevented her from being completely knocked over by Alder's inadvertency. Alder apologised profusely to this kind lady and, in return, she deposited a note into his breast pocket. Initially Alder did not realise this and it wasn't until much later that he discovered the note. Alder opended the folded note and read its contents. There was just one sentence: "As above, so below" Instantly Alder knew that this note explained his dream. A simple one sentence, if it could so be called, explained away a tewnty year perplexion. The gigantic entity was mearly a manifestation of the tiny entity which, in turn, was a manifestation of Alder himself. Everything that happens above us also happens below us and with us as well. The universe is infinite in extant, both in time and space. The universe is delineated by the atom, for there are quarks and superstrings smaller than the atom and, no doubt, there are entities even smaller than these. Nor is the universe delineated by the galaxies, nebulae or blackholes. There are entities much larger than these and the entity which we call the universe is, in fact, just another entity within an entity as us humans are an entity within the entity that we call Earth. That night Alder once again had the recurring dream. Although this time it was a pleasent dream. The dream took on a new meaning that made it appear as alive as we believe we ourselves are. That night, though, the dream was slightly different. That night, instead of the gigantic entity instantly turning into the tiny entity there was a slow progression, evolution if you will, from giant to non-giant. In the process the entity reached the size of Alder himself. It was then that the dream took on its profoundness. It was then that Alder realised the interconnectedness of everything; that everything above is as everything below. The next morning Alder awoke with a most satisfied smile upon his face. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Aug 08 18:34:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 01:34:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 55797 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 01:34:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 01:34:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 01:34:28 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyfb-0003nP-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:34:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3D531C76.47AFD708@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:35:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World as above so below References: <20020809012536.9873.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mic Forster wrote: > So what was Alder to do? Already had he consulted > those new age spiritual dream books, though they were > of no help. ... > There was just one sentence: > > "As above, so below" > > Instantly Alder knew that this note explained his > dream. A simple one sentence, if it could so be > called, explained away a tewnty year perplexion. He must have gone out of his way to look at the junkiest New Age books; that phrase is very common within them, and he would have found it in most decent books. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Aug 09 13:08:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 20:08:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 2273 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 20:08:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 20:08:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 20:08:55 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.10d.161da077 (30951) for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <10d.161da077.2a857b51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:08:49 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World as above so below To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/08/02 8:35:26 PM, bartl@sprynet.com (Bart Lidofsky) writes: >Mic Forster wrote: >> So what was Alder to do? Already had he consulted >> those new age spiritual dream books, though they were >> of no help. > >... > >> There was just one sentence: >> >> "As above, so below" >> >> Instantly Alder knew that this note explained his >> dream. A simple one sentence, if it could so be >> called, explained away a tewnty year perplexion. > > He must have gone out of his way to look at the junkiest New Age books; >that phrase is very common within them, and he would have found it in >most decent books. I don't think there's any such thing as a "decent" 'new age spiritual dream book'... Which, does not include any "decent" [whatever that means] books on other subjects, whether "new age" [whatever that means] or not? However, if you know there are such books, I think it might help if you tell us which ones they might be, so we can verify if it teaches occult truths such as, "As above, so below" -- and, in addition, can learn something about our spiritual dreams (as well as determine whether your remarks and nit picking comments are based on opinions or facts. :-) LHM From dhyana@web.de Fri Aug 09 14:33:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 21:33:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 17136 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 21:33:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 21:33:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 21:33:49 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g79LXiP14862 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:33:44 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-219.blinx.de [62.96.222.219]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g79LXgc14850 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:33:42 +0200 Message-ID: <004701c23fec$8a141980$dbde603e@captaink> To: Subject: Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitable? Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:34:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.219 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read the article by Harley Schlanger: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2002/pres_day/hcs.html#hcs What is the THEOSOPHICAL point of view? Is the "clash of civilizations" a la Samuel Huntington, Kissinger, Wolfowitz etc. a MUST? Or is harmony between the races and nations possible? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 09 15:20:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 22:20:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 72151 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 22:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 22:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.172) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 22:20:14 -0000 Received: from modem-2540.lemur.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.137.236] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17dI7B-0005EW-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 23:20:13 +0100 Message-ID: <018c01c23ff3$5b2a5920$869287d9@u0z2y2> To: References: <004701c23fec$8a141980$dbde603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitable? Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:22:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Why should there be such a thing as a "Theosophical view" of something like this ? "....but the latter (The Theosophical Society) cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense of the divine fitness of things, or of him who understands Theosophy in his own - if the expression may be used - SECTARIAN and egotistic way" HPB (Emphasis her own). Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitable? > Read the article by Harley Schlanger: > > http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2002/pres_day/hcs.html#hcs > > What is the THEOSOPHICAL point of view? > > Is the "clash of civilizations" a la Samuel Huntington, Kissinger, Wolfowitz etc. a MUST? > > Or is harmony between the races and nations possible? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Fri Aug 09 15:59:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 9 Aug 2002 22:59:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 49280 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 22:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2002 22:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 22:59:19 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout06.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0L0017HMHL4S@mtaout06.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:57:57 -0500 Subject: "MIND OF THE AGE" (15-part series) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3D545704.D143D6F7@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld Even though it's not current, I'm pretty sure that, based on the subject and conversation now going on here, concerning the "Clash of Civilizations", this series of articles should prove to be very informative in showing everyone how Theosophists and the Theosophical Movement are capable of speaking about these kinds of subjects, in a profound way. And it is my opinion, if I remember the overall contents of this fine series more or less correctly, that much of it is very relevant to the current situations in the world. ============================================== [The 1st link is to the Index page which contains the links to all 15 articles. If it's broken, the 2nd link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page, entitled "Mind (or Manas--the Thinker)", where you will see the link to its Index page.] ----------------------------------------------- MIND OF THE AGE (15-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/MindOfTheAge-Series/index.html http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#8 ================================================== John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Aug 09 22:40:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 05:40:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 19330 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 05:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 05:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 05:40:07 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.a7.24c6e076 (30971) for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:39:57 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/9/02 4:35:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dhyana@web.de writes: << Or is harmony between the races and nations possible? >> I ain't holding my breath. Chuck From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Aug 10 01:07:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 08:07:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 98220 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 08:07:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 08:07:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 08:07:30 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 42985262BB3 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:07:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000501c24044$3cda79e0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:02:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Let us not be afraid. Let us dare go where no-one has gone before ! Clashes ? Try my favorite quote =E1 la Martin Luther King Jr. : "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this= is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate only= intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you a= nd you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, th= at goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a= little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the perso= n who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tra= gedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence= of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and m= orality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very structure of the u= niverse that strong and powerful element of love."=20 Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 November 195= 7 at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text)=20 Another one of his is this: "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalt= ies must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transc= end our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must = develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can li= ve alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this = world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to liv= e together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools."=20 Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967= at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga I am no priest, but I like the above, and I think that there is a very impo= rtant core of truth in the words made by King. The present situation on the Planet makes me think, that a number of leader= s or so-called leaders are not (properly) adressing these above issues --- = at all ! That is certainly troublesome. from Sufilight with the heart clashing in the cosmic consciousness...>:-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:39 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilization= s' Inevitab... > In a message dated 8/9/02 4:35:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dhyana@web.de= =20 > writes: >=20 > <<=20 > Or is harmony between the races and nations possible? > >> >=20 > I ain't holding my breath. >=20 > Chuck >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 10 07:17:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 14:17:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 12876 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 14:17:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 14:17:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 14:17:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2002 14:17:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:17:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Dallas' recent remarks about SD III Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2540 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dallas, thanks for your remarks and observations. You raise some good points but to answer some of your questions and observations, I will have to go over a good amount of material and try to present each item one point at a time. Unless this is done, a great deal of additional confusion may be created. For this posting I will reply to your statement which reads: "2. If modified, and I assume it was, then why was it never produced or mentioned clearly by Judge, her executor, the Keightleys, or Mead ? After H P B's death, some of the MSS of articles in her 'desk' were published in LUCIFER. But nothing was said about the MSS of the THIRD VOLUME being considered or edited for possible publication later on. This omission is to me significant. I would have thought that this would be of primary importance then (in 1891)." But SOMETHING in fact was said in 1891 and later after HPB's death about "the MSS of the THIRD VOLUME being considered or edited for possible publication later on." If you turn to my essay at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiipt6.htm you will find that Isabel Cooper-Oakley wrote in THE PATH magazine, December 1891, page 295 the following: "The H.P.B. Press...is developing into a regular printing office....A new edition of The Secret Doctrine is to lead the van, and last but not least the third volume is to be published." (Isabel's statement is dated in Oct. 1891 from London.) And Dr. Archibald Keightley wrote in a letter to Bertram Keightley in October, 1891: "There is some talk of entirely reprinting Secret Doctrine [Volumes I and II] and of correcting errors when the Third Volume is issued." (cited by C. Jinarajadasa in "Dr. Besant and Mutilation of the Secret Doctrine," Messenger, January 1926, page 166.) And after Volumes I and II of the SD were reissued in late 1893, readers of Lucifer would have seen in the January, 1894 issue the following statement: "The third volume of The Secret Doctrine is being typewritten from the MS." There may be other statements to this effect during this time period in the various Theosophical journals. The above evidence shows that your statement is not accurate as given. More in later postings. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 10 07:49:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 14:49:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 74707 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 14:49:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 14:49:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 14:49:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Aug 2002 14:49:58 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:49:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Another statement by Dallas about SD Vol III Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2812 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dallas, In your posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7664 you write in part: > 1. We do not know if H P B modified the material sent in > 1886 to Adyar after that date. I would assume she did, but > of course, I have no concrete basis to offer. It is my > opinion after many years study. . . . > 4. Why should H P B use only the MSS that was sent to Adyar > ? Why would she not have added to it? She wrote that it > was READY. So she must have prepared a great deal of > written MSS for that purpose. Dallas, Madame Blavatsky may have added and modified the material found in the 1886-1887 manuscripts of the SD. But before going into that issue, do you agree that in the summer of 1887 Volume I became Volume III as reported by Bertram Keightley and also verified by comparing the SD manuscript at Adyar with what was published in 1888? Dallas, to be even more specific, look at the following essays or sections in the Volume I manuscript of the SD sent by HPB to Olcott who received this volume in early Dec. 1886. [All of this documented by the SD manuscript at Adyar, in HPB's letters to Olcott of this time period and also by Olcott's diary for 1886.] * White and Black Magic in Theory and Practice * Hermes and the 32 Ways of Wisdom * Mathematics and Geometry--- The Keys to the Universal Problems * The Key of the Absolute in Magic-- the Hexagon with the Central Point -- or the Seventh Key * Who Was the Adept of Tyana? * The Roman Church Dreads the Publication of the Real Life of Apollonius * Confession and Property in Common * What the Occultists and Kabalists Have to Say * The Souls of the Star -- Universal Heliolatry * The Mystery "Sun of Initiation" The Trial of the Sun-lnitiate There is no doubt that these essays written by HPB were in Volume I of the SD as of 1886. Now let us take it further: If Bertram Keightley's eyewitness account is accepted that Volume I became Volume III only 6 months later (i.e. by summer of 1887), then is it not clear that these essays listed above would have gone from Volume I to volume III? In other words, once the volumes were rearranged in the new order, a reader of the SD manuscript would have found the above listed material in the Volume III manuscript. Is this conclusion so hard to accept in light of the primary source evidence I have previously cited? Dallas, I hope that you will deal with this specific point. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 10 08:51:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 34927 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17dYWg-0006vn-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:51:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5536D3.DC3DE097@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:52:51 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > << > Or is harmony between the races and nations possible? > >> > > I ain't holding my breath. Or, to put it another way, let's take a look at the Middle East. Israel has a goal, which they are not willing to compromise, to continue their own existence. The Palestinians have a goal to drive Israel out of all of what they call the "occupied territories", which, if you look at their own literature, includes the original State of Israel (note that the PLO was founded in 1964, when the only land Israel occupied was its own original borders). Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 10 08:54:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 15:54:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 92768 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 15:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 15:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 15:54:09 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17dYZ6-0001c9-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:54:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3D55376A.C1A5D454@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:55:22 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... References: <000501c24044$3cda79e0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Sufilight wrote: > I am no priest, but I like the above, and I think that there is a very > important core of truth in the words made by King. > The present situation on the Planet makes me think, that a number of leaders > or so-called leaders are not (properly) adressing these above issues --- at > all ! > That is certainly troublesome. Yes. Let's just replace all the leaders who don't agree with it with leaders who do. Now we've solved all the world's political problems. Boy, I never realized it would be so easy. Bart Lidofsky From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Aug 10 13:40:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 10 Aug 2002 20:40:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 27156 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2002 20:40:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2002 20:40:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2002 20:40:34 -0000 Received: from pool0673.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.190.163] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17dd2D-0000H7-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:40:30 -0700 To: "Ian McRae" Subject: RE: The T S and THEROSOPHY Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <018c01c23ff3$5b2a5920$869287d9@u0z2y2> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 10 2002 Re: The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY and THEOSOPHY Differences ? Dear Ian & Friends: Let look at what H P B was trying to say. You used this quote "....but the latter (The Theosophical Society) cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense of the divine fitness of things, or of him who understands Theosophy in his own - if the expression may be used - SECTARIAN and egotistic way" HPB (Emphasis her own). May I offer what I have learned from the study of theosophy: First the T S as an organization or a body of people who generally are interested in pursuing the "THREE OBJECTS" can do nothing. But every individual can do something because of his or her independence. Yet "independence " has to be qualified, since we notice we are interdependent in many things for our bodies to stay alive. None of us is "an island unto himself." Sharing appears to be a sine-qua-non of progress, of living. A "sectarian way" is personal and isolating. It makes some unproved assumptions. Let us see what Theosophy offers on this. Is it narrow and convoluted, or is it broad and does it rely on some universal principles which each, and every one of us, can research and prove or disprove? Let's look at a broad outline of THEOSOPHY, and its relation to the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. 1. The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was established as a society in which people would have freedom and facility. The freedom was entirely theirs but the facility was established so that those of similar interests could more easily contact one another. Belonging to the society was useful but not a "gateway to' Heaven.'" 2. That which gave life to the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was the fact that The Masters of Wisdom used it by giving a fresh impetus to very old ideas. H P B was their willing and trained "messenger." If one really wants to study this relationship, then a careful reading of the MAHATMA LETTERS and of H P B's LETTERS TO Mr. A. P. Sinnett, and ISIS UNVEILED helps. 3. To describe THEOSOPHY and its doctrines, tenets and history is one thing. To live the life of a practical "theosophist" is quite another. 4. The specific doctrines and tenets of Theosophy are put forward as information. They draw attention immediately to SPIRIT, which is ubiquitous and without any qualifications as present everywhere. There is no "void." There is no place without "spirit." There is no "devil." a. the permanence of the human spirit is directly derived from that, and b. the universal doctrine of reincarnation is to be found implicit in that.. 5. This arises from the fact of universal evolution. 6. The ONE SPIRIT is ubiquitous (present everywhere) (Fact 1.) 7. The universality and impartiality of Law and laws is a fact. (Fact 2). 8. Intelligence, acting universally, implies universal evolution. (Fact 3). 9. This implies universal sensitivity to thought, motive, feeling, and action. Every being is electro-magnetically sensitive to every other, and reacts accordingly. The whole of Nature in all its aspects records the variations of the flow of thought, motive, desire and actions. This is Karma. 10. Evolution, uniform to all, as potential, may be traced in the areas of: a Spirit: as Wisdom (Budhi) -- a true knowledge of past, present and future, a "knowledge of the facts in nature." b Intelligence: Inclusive of the "Mind" and of the "Desires and passions, or, emotions and feelings." c Physical Matter: the development of a physical instrument as the dwelling house of a Mind. 11. Universal evolution demands co-existence and co-operation at every point. It is the "harmony of discords" that makes for the ultimate "PERFECTION." The "discords" are voluntarily resolved under and because of a perception of universal Law. 12. Brotherhood is based on the spirit base that all share. We also share matter in common. The "Atom" is indestructible and is a "perpetual motion machine." 13. The Evolutionary progress is to be traced (both linearly and hyperbolically) from the smallest atom to the greatest Galaxy -- the UNIVERSE in toto. There are no exclusions. 14.. The "human mind" is shown to graduate to "divine mind" by a process of self learning, self-control and vigorous study of laws and facts in the Universe. The personal self and the INDIVIDUAL SELF are harmonized. We can now seek to make a reasonable and fair application of these ideals to one's personal life. 1. It is always an entirely free and independent choice. It is made by every student-mind. Hence the motive for such a decision is most important. 2. Motive for thought, feeling and action is of primary concern, because, it is either in tune with Nature or it is at cross-purposes with her. The Mind-chooser is intuitively aware of this at every choice. 3. On examination, one finds that motive involves freedom of choice between selfishness and generosity -- between self-service, and assistance to others, whom we know are our brothers and fellow pilgrims. Immortality makes this association one of permanence and repetition. We are never entirely separated from one another. 4. The power of the mind (Manas) to imagine, to remember and to reflect (logically) is significant. 5. The Power of "desire" (Kama), is distinct from the powers of the Mind. Our selfish "lower-mind" blurs this distinction. 6. By itself "Desire" does not have the power to look forward and envisage all potential results. It ensnares the mind and employs its semi-hypnotic powers by stunting these. It deliberately avoids using the power of Universal Knowledge (WISDOM) to serve as a comparison to the limited perceptions and aims of its selfish isolation and separation from the rest of Nature. Since it is self-centered and careless of the rights and privileges of others, its conclusions are self-limited, faulty and ultimately the recoil on it as pain, accidents and suffering. We are to understand that Nature does not "punish." It educates, and does this most effectively by placing the "wrong-doer" in those conditions which he placed others. 7. Unanimity of potential faces (as an Ideal concept) all, who desire to become "perfect." The capacity to think, and to mentally imagine a balance between the potential results of selfishness, and, those of universality is derived from The "Higher-Mind" -- the Spirit-inspired Buddhi-Manas." It is present in all humans. It is precisely here, on the creative motives for action, that our present and future evolution is focused. 8. From the permanence and persistence of a spiritual, an IDEAL UNIVERSE, is derived the permanence and continuity of consciousness in every being. Consciousness is always ONE, Individual Intelligence grows and matures. 9. Its unbroken nature can be traced from the intelligence that producers atomic coherence, through all the Kingdoms of Nature (where progressive stages of intelligence are acquired), to the stage of humankind (which is mind endowed). Ultimately it becomes a "Buddha," or a "Christ." 10. From this, our stage of personal-mind-being, we may look forward and imagine what may be the ultimate level, the spiritual level of all-KNOWINGNESS. Ity is perfect knowledge of the effects that inevitably follow all causes. It is universal WISDOM (Buddhi). 11. Theosophy states that the individual, free, spirit-mind makes itself into an ALL-KNOWING SELF -- and this is an identity that is at ONE with the ALL. [This concept stagers the imagination of any embodied mind. But on reflection it can be perceived as potential and probable.] I hope that this may be found useful as a review. Best wishes, DTB =========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Ian Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:22 PM To: Subject: Re Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitable? Why should there be such a thing as a "Theosophical view" of something like this ? "....but the latter (The Theosophical Society) cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense of the divine fitness of things, or of him who understands Theosophy in his own - if the expression may be used - SECTARIAN and egotistic way" HPB (Emphasis her own). Orra Best, Ian From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 11 03:39:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 11 Aug 2002 10:39:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 69417 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2002 10:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2002 10:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2002 10:39:49 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E7315EEB17 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:39:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002101c24122$add053c0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <000501c24044$3cda79e0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> <3D55376A.C1A5D454@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:34:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all, Here are some views: Well Bart. I didn't say that we should do that, -- but YOU did: Bart wrote: Yes. Let's just replace all the leaders who don't agree with it with > leaders who do. Now we've solved all the world's political problems. > Boy, I never realized it would be so easy. I think it also would be wise to seek to properly educate those leaders or = so-called leaders --- Even theosophical ones, so they really understand, th= e strong importance or even the karmic implications - the words coming from= King has today year 2002. Why replace them, Bart ?=20 Of course some of the leaders or so-called leaders won't be 're-elected', a= nd that is a fact. There is a growing need for official REAL leaders with, what I here will ca= ll OVERVIEW or 'Worldwide overview'. This need has become increasingly important because of the present growth o= f the Information Society globally seen. I am talking about leaders with a Worldwide Overview, who adresses the impo= rtance of worldwide peace, and who does it continously and not only when it= fits the so-called 'Journalists', and who works using all what they have t= o ensure such a peace, not merely by name but also in reality ! Most of the leaders time is today used to put their ties right or their mak= e-up right, so that they follow the present fashion of design - and kneels = on front of THEIR God called - The Glamour of TV and Immoral Newsheadlines. REAL leaders doesn't have such a God ! Like HPB said: "Surely the world has been hitherto sufficiently cursed with the intellectu= al extinguishers known as dogmatic creeds, without having inflicted upon it= a new form of faith! Too many already wear their faith, truly, as Shakespe= are puts it, "but as the fashion of his hat," ever changing "with the next = block." Moreover, the very raison d'=EAtre of the Theosophical Society was,= from its beginning, to utter a loud protest and lead an open warfare again= st dogma or any belief based upon blind faith."=20 (The article :"IS THEOSOPHY A RELIGION?" by H. P. Blavatsky 1888 - written = shortly after the publication of The Secret Doctrine) The "Fashion hat" politicians and journalists are the Planets and their OWN= worst nightmare at present, while they are NOT properly adressing the REAL= problems of today=20 - i.e. how to create everlasting secured PEACE. They are misusing ther positions in society. Their are not doing what peopl= e has hoped they would do. The writing on the wall "Mene mene tekel ufarsin= " is certainly about to happen - if no change will come ! Well, that is just my humble view. from Sufilight with PEACE and LOVE... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilization= s' Inevitab... > Morten Sufilight wrote: > > I am no priest, but I like the above, and I think that there is a very= =20 > > important core of truth in the words made by King. > > The present situation on the Planet makes me think, that a number of le= aders=20 > > or so-called leaders are not (properly) adressing these above issues --= - at=20 > > all ! > > That is certainly troublesome. >=20 > Yes. Let's just replace all the leaders who don't agree with it with > leaders who do. Now we've solved all the world's political problems. > Boy, I never realized it would be so easy. >=20 > Bart Lidofsky >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From micforster@yahoo.com Sun Aug 11 15:11:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 11 Aug 2002 22:11:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 45461 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2002 22:11:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Aug 2002 22:11:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13404.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2002 22:11:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20020811221121.210.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.12.2.220] by web13404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:11:21 PDT Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D55376A.C1A5D454@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Speaking of leaders, it is good to see the so called leader of the free world making press announcements and policy decisions over a game of golf.....real good image he is portraying of himself and the people he is suppose to represent --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Morten Sufilight wrote: > > I am no priest, but I like the above, and I think > that there is a very > > important core of truth in the words made by King. > > The present situation on the Planet makes me > think, that a number of leaders > > or so-called leaders are not (properly) adressing > these above issues --- at > > all ! > > That is certainly troublesome. > > Yes. Let's just replace all the leaders who don't > agree with it with > leaders who do. Now we've solved all the world's > political problems. > Boy, I never realized it would be so easy. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 11 19:29:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 02:29:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 92748 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 02:29:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 02:29:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 02:29:56 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-022.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17e4xv-0006x1-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:29:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3D571DF9.52364DD0@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:31:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Israel and Sept. 11: Is the 'Clash of Civilizations' Inevitab... References: <20020811221121.210.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mic Forster wrote: > Speaking of leaders, it is good to see the so called > leader of the free world making press announcements > and policy decisions over a game of golf.....real good > image he is portraying of himself and the people he is > suppose to represent I'd rather have him making important decisions while playing golf in the open than while getting a blow-job from an intern in a closed office. Bart Lidofsky From micforster@yahoo.com Sun Aug 11 21:15:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 04:15:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 45569 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 04:15:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 04:15:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13401.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.59) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 04:15:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20020812041530.16561.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.241.191] by web13401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:15:30 PDT Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Australian Aborigines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609162715.009f3e70@theosophy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Watkin Tench, Captain of the Marines on the First Fleet to New South Wales in 1788 and principal recorder of activities in the colony between 1788 and 1791, said the following: "man is the same in Pall Mall as he is in the wilderness of New South Wales", the only difference being that the man in Pall Mall has been "civilized" and educated as to the ways of the British gentry whereas the man in the wilderness of New South Wales has not. On reading Tench's commentry on the Aborigines one cannot help but feel that these people are just as evolved as Europeans are. Here is a case to illustrate this: the British were abhorred to witness the Aboriginal justice system (ie that person from that tribe speared me so I can spear him or any other member of his tribe and that is that); similarly the Aborigines were equally abhorred, if not more so, at the British justice system (ie a convict receiving 300 whippings for stealing possesions of the Aborigines). Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other theosophists? There is absolutely no evidence for it and all evidence for it is based on speculation, bigotry, naivity, ignorance and misunderstanding of a culture that was systematically brutalised and annhilated. If supporters of this notion want any credibility they must present empirical evidence that cannot be refuted or denied. To say that I am more superior than another because I have a musket and he has a spear is sheer absurdity. Such conjecture can only lead to egotism and the promotion of idealogies not unlike nazism. We are all brothers in this so called brotherhood of mankind and the Australian Aborigines should also be afforded this respect. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 11 22:28:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 05:28:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 54767 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 05:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 05:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 05:28:07 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17e7kM-0007cK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:28:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5747BD.BF85C835@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 01:29:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Australian Aborigines References: <20020812041530.16561.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mic Forster wrote: > Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than > the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other > theosophists? Well, first of all, technically speaking, WE'RE at the lowest evolutionary state; remember, we reached this point from an INvolutionary process. According to the Mahatma Letters, the Aborigines have the remnants of the CIVILIZATION of the 4th Root Race; this is what probably caused the confusion. Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." Bart Lidofsky From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Aug 12 05:25:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 12:25:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 29418 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 12:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 12:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d02.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.34) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 12:24:59 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.1aa.6a15c14 (4394) for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1aa.6a15c14.2a890317@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:24:55 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Australian Aborigines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/12/02 12:28:35 AM Central Daylight Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." >> Be careful with that boomerang! Chuck From yoojo@hotmail.com Mon Aug 12 12:52:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: yoojo@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 19:52:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 47576 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 19:49:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 19:49:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 19:49:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2002 19:49:14 -0000 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:49:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Three quotes by Alton Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3742 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "mi_nok" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.222.32 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=67142021 X-Yahoo-Profile: mi_nok Nisargadatta - The way back to your self =A0Question: =A0Still, you are different. Your mind seems to be always quiet and=20 =A0happy.=A0 And miracles happen around you. Answer:=20 =A0 I know nothing about miracles, and I wonder whether nature admits=20 =A0 exceptions to her laws, unless we agree that everything is a=20 =A0 miracle.=A0 As to my mind, there is no such thing. There is a=20 =A0 consciousness in which everything happens.=A0 It is quite obvious and=20 =A0 enough.=A0 Look well, and see what I see.=20 Q: What do you see? =A0 A: =A0I see what you too could see, here and now, but for the wrong=20 =A0focus of your attention.=A0 You give no attention to your self.=A0 Your= =20 =A0mind is all with things, people, and ideas, never with your self.=20 =A0Bring your self into focus, become aware of your own existence.=A0 See=20 =A0how you function, watch the motives and the results of your actions.=A0= =20 =A0Study the prison you have built around yourself, by inadvertence.=A0 By= =20 =A0knowing what you are not, you come to know yourself.=A0 The way back to= =20 =A0your self is through refusal and rejection.=A0 One thing is certain:=20 =A0The real is not imaginary, it is not a product of the mind.=A0 Even the= =20 =A0sense of `I am=B4 is not continuous, though it is a useful pointer; it=20 =A0shows where to seek, but not what to seek. Just have a good look at=20 =A0it.=A0 Once you have convinced that you cannot say truthfully about=20 your self anything except `I am=B4, and that nothing that can be=20 pointed at can be your self, the need for the `I am=B4 is over - you=20 are no longer intent on verbalizing what you are.=A0 All you need is to=20 get rid of the tendency to define your self.=A0 All definition applies=20 to your body only and to its expressions.=A0=A0=20 Once this obsession with the body goes, you will revert to your=20 natural state, spontaneously and effortlessly.=A0 The only difference=20 between us is that I am aware of my natural state, while you are=20 bemused.=A0 Just like gold made into ornamentals has no advantage over=20 gold duct, except when the mind makes it so, so are we one in being=A0=20 we differ only in appearance.=A0 We discover it by being earnest, by=20 searching, enquiry, questioning daily and hourly, by giving one's=20 life to this discover. - Nisargadatta Maharaj "I am That" Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=A0 Ramana Maharshi - Talks,155 5th February, 1936 =20 The same man again asked about the nature=20 of samadhi and the means to get samadhi. M.: When the one who asks the nature of samadhi and the method of getting i= =3D=0D nto it vanishes, samadhi will result. Maj.Chadwick: It is said that one look of a Mahatma is enough; that idols, pilgrimages, etc, are not so effective.=20 I have been here for three months, but I=20 do not know how I have been benefited by the look of Maharshi. M.: The look has a purifying effect. Purification cannot be visualized. Jus= =3D=0D t=20 as a piece of coal takes long to be=20 ignited, a piece of charcoal takes a short time, and a mass of gunpowder is instantaneously ignited, so it is with=20 grades of men coming in contact with Mahatmas. Mr. Cohen: I get into meditation and=20 reach a point which may be called peace=20 and a contemplative mood. What should be the next step? M.: Peace is Self-Realization. Peace=20 need not be disturbed. One should aim at Peace only. D.: But I do not have the satisfaction. M.: Because your peace is temporary.=20 If made permanent it is called=20 Realization. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =A0 "When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. Between these two my life moves." Nisargadatta.. That is love http://groups.yahoo.com/group/self_realization_dialogues/ From loreleirm@yahoo.fr Mon Aug 12 15:55:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: loreleirm@yahoo.fr X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 22:55:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 6075 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 22:55:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 22:55:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web14907.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.225.59) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 22:55:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20020812225543.9043.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [158.59.27.37] by web14907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:55:43 CEST Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:55:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: About suicide To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?lorelei=20varin=20de=20garzon?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=120674780 X-Yahoo-Profile: loreleirm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 12 august 2002 - Arlington VA My name is Ruben, firts time I present some comment on the Theo-talk. Today, I would like to expose some comments on the subject of suicide. I have read some of the article of the theosphical society and Miss Blavats= ky. But I'm still not convinced about the wise position to adopt about Suicide.= In almost all the comment on the matter, I understand that to commit suici= de is a sin, and the person who kill himself would have to assume the respo= nsabilities of his own death in the next life with more difficulties (If I'= m wrong, please tell me).=20 Well, as my opinion, there is something incorrect about these judgments. It= seems that we forget one quality important: The compassion for sick souls. I dont think there is any punishment at all. The only punishment will come = frome the oun soul. People with Schizophrenia for example are living in a v= icious mind in which they are turning around and around and around without = find any solution. Horrible disturbance of the mind in wich a soul is compl= etely lost. Someone with these kind of illness will never see the light, li= fe after life, if he has to assume his suicide. I've heard of a story that people like the Esquimo (who live in the Groenla= nd Island) accept the notion of suicide in the case that a person is unsati= sfied of his life and decide to leave the material world. What about The ja= panese samurai who prartice HaraKiri. And I'm pretty sure that many cases o= f suicide, and suicide collectif can be shown in nature. The notion of sin still come from our western culture. People who has deep = depresion, we used to say that he is passing a hard time but if he past thr= ough he will feel much better with a superior understanding of the meaning = of life. The fact is there is thousands of people who don't pass through an= d find the experience so unbearable that death is the only acceptable solut= ion. I think Suicide is part of the process of knowledge. It can probably c= alled a mistake but our path for a spiritual evolution always happens becau= se of mistake. Well, I hope I will receive some answer about these subject. Please to excu= se my errors of writting english, it's not my native language. Thanks. RUBEN .=20 =20 =20 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Aug 12 16:31:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 12 Aug 2002 23:31:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 29311 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 23:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Aug 2002 23:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 23:31:10 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout02.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0R00KNB7ZW1G@mtaout02.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:30:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World About suicide To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3D58531D.816206E4@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <20020812225543.9043.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I personally have nothing to say, other than that these two articles may be helpful on the subject of suicide: Suicide Is Not Death (WQJ): http://www.blavatsky.net/theosophy/judge/articles/suicide-is-not-death.htm Is Suicide A Crime (HPB): http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/IsSuicideACrime.htm John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- lorelei varin de garzon wrote: > 12 august 2002 - Arlington VA > > My name is Ruben, firts time I present some comment on the Theo-talk. > > Today, I would like to expose some comments on the subject of suicide. > > I have read some of the article of the theosphical society and Miss Blavatsky. > > But I'm still not convinced about the wise position to adopt about Suicide. In almost all the comment on the matter, I understand that to commit suicide is a sin, and the person who kill himself would have to assume the responsabilities of his own death in the next life with more difficulties (If I'm wrong, please tell me). > > Well, as my opinion, there is something incorrect about these judgments. It seems that we forget one quality important: The compassion for sick souls. > > I dont think there is any punishment at all. The only punishment will come frome the oun soul. People with Schizophrenia for example are living in a vicious mind in which they are turning around and around and around without find any solution. Horrible disturbance of the mind in wich a soul is completely lost. Someone with these kind of illness will never see the light, life after life, if he has to assume his suicide. > > I've heard of a story that people like the Esquimo (who live in the Groenland Island) accept the notion of suicide in the case that a person is unsatisfied of his life and decide to leave the material world. What about The japanese samurai who prartice HaraKiri. And I'm pretty sure that many cases of suicide, and suicide collectif can be shown in nature. > > The notion of sin still come from our western culture. People who has deep depresion, we used to say that he is passing a hard time but if he past through he will feel much better with a superior understanding of the meaning of life. The fact is there is thousands of people who don't pass through and find the experience so unbearable that death is the only acceptable solution. I think Suicide is part of the process of knowledge. It can probably called a mistake but our path for a spiritual evolution always happens because of mistake. > > Well, I hope I will receive some answer about these subject. Please to excuse my errors of writting english, it's not my native language. Thanks. > > RUBEN > > . > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Aug 12 20:14:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 03:14:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 67250 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 03:14:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 03:14:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 03:14:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 03:14:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:14:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Australian Aborigines Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D5747BD.BF85C835@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 779 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Aren't these references to 3e and 4e root races in the Secret Doctrine a bunch of nonsense ? --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Mic Forster wrote: > > Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than > > the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other > > theosophists? > > Well, first of all, technically speaking, WE'RE at the lowest > evolutionary state; remember, we reached this point from an > INvolutionary process. > > According to the Mahatma Letters, the Aborigines have the remnants of > the CIVILIZATION of the 4th Root Race; this is what probably caused the > confusion. Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is > clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." > > Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Aug 12 21:16:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 04:15:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 80187 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 04:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 04:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 04:15:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 04:15:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 04:15:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bri-an Muehl-bach, do you "know" Bri-gitte Muehl-egger? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 81 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bri-an Muehl-bach, I'm curious. Do you "know" Bri-gitte Muehl-egger? Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Aug 12 22:24:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 05:24:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 18422 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 05:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 05:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 05:24:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 05:24:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:24:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: New web site: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 877 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.170.9 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach With subjects related to "The Esoteric / Transpersonal Tradition Today": http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Mic Forster wrote: > > > Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than > > > the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other > > > theosophists? > > > > Well, first of all, technically speaking, WE'RE at the lowest > > evolutionary state; remember, we reached this point from an > > INvolutionary process. > > > > According to the Mahatma Letters, the Aborigines have the > remnants of > > the CIVILIZATION of the 4th Root Race; this is what probably caused > the > > confusion. Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is > > clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." > > > > Bart Lidofsky From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 00:48:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 07:48:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 4250 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 07:48:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 07:48:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 07:48:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 07:48:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:48:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Reg. The Secret Doctrine. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020812041530.16561.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2767 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.24 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Mic: Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other theosophists? There is absolutely no evidence for it and all evidence for it is based on speculation, bigotry, naivity, ignorance and misunderstanding of a culture that was systematically brutalised and annhilated. If supporters of this notion want any credibility they must present empirical evidence that cannot be refuted or denied. Brian : The idea that humans are biologically different due to the laws of nature, and that they are getting more perfect, inescapably means that some (races or classes - it varies) are less worthy than others. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., Mic Forster wrote: > Watkin Tench, Captain of the Marines on the First > Fleet to New South Wales in 1788 and principal > recorder of activities in the colony between 1788 and > 1791, said the following: > > "man is the same in Pall Mall as he is in the > wilderness of New South Wales", the only difference > being that the man in Pall Mall has been "civilized" > and educated as to the ways of the British gentry > whereas the man in the wilderness of New South Wales > has not. On reading Tench's commentry on the > Aborigines one cannot help but feel that these people > are just as evolved as Europeans are. Here is a case > to illustrate this: the British were abhorred to > witness the Aboriginal justice system (ie that person > from that tribe speared me so I can spear him or any > other member of his tribe and that is that); similarly > the Aborigines were equally abhorred, if not more so, > at the British justice system (ie a convict receiving > 300 whippings for stealing possesions of the > Aborigines). > > Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than > the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other > theosophists? There is absolutely no evidence for it > and all evidence for it is based on speculation, > bigotry, naivity, ignorance and misunderstanding of a > culture that was systematically brutalised and > annhilated. If supporters of this notion want any > credibility they must present empirical evidence that > cannot be refuted or denied. To say that I am more > superior than another because I have a musket and he > has a spear is sheer absurdity. Such conjecture can > only lead to egotism and the promotion of idealogies > not unlike nazism. We are all brothers in this so > called brotherhood of mankind and the Australian > Aborigines should also be afforded this respect. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Tue Aug 13 01:07:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 08:07:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 61746 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 08:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 08:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.176) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 08:07:28 -0000 Received: from modem-849.lemur.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.131.81] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17eWi6-0004bE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:07:26 +0100 Message-ID: <091c01c242a0$e7c8eae0$869287d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Reg. The Secret Doctrine. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:01:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae > Brian : The idea that humans are biologically different due to the > laws of nature, and that they are getting more perfect, inescapably > means that some (races or classes - it varies) are less worthy than > others. Unfortunate choice of words here which makes it look prejudiced. Personally, I would replace "less worthy" with "less evolved". Orra Best, Ian From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 02:16:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 09:16:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 46005 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 09:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 09:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 09:16:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 09:16:31 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:16:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D5747BD.BF85C835@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3863 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.137.131 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Bart Lidofsky :According to the Mahatma Letters, the Aborigines have the remnants of the CIVILIZATION of the 4th Root Race; this is what probably caused the confusion. Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." Brian: Blavatksy's ideas regarding root races and so on it seems are based on the premise of "the Great Chain of Being." The "Great Chain of Being" was popular during the early Renaissance where certain "scientists" assumed that every existing thing in the universe had its "place" in a divinely planned hierarchical order, which was pictured as a chain vertically extended. ("Hierarchical" refers to an order based on a series of higher and lower, strictly ranked gradations.) An object's "place" depended on the relative proportion of "spirit" and "matter" it contained--the less "spirit" and the more "matter," the less evolved it was seen . At the bottom of the hierarchical model for example, stood various types of inanimate objects, such as metals, stones. Higher up were various members of the vegetative class, like trees and flowers. Then came animals; then humans; and then angels or "spiritual beings.". Then within each of these large groups, there were other hierarchies. For example, among metals, gold was the noblest and stood highest; lead had less "spirit" and more matter and so stood lower. (Alchemy was based on the belief that lead could be changed to gold through an infusion of "spirit.") The various species of plants, animals, humans, and angels were similarly ranked from low to high within their respective segments. Finally, it was believed that between the segments themselves, there was continuity (shellfish were lowest among animals and shaded into the vegetative class, for example, because without locomotion, they most resembled plants). Besides universal orderliness, there was universal interdependence. This was implicit in the early Renaisance doctrine of "correspondences," which held that different segments of the chain reflected other segments. For example, Renaissance thinkers viewed a human being as a microcosm (literally, a "little world") that reflected the structure of the world as a whole, the macrocosm , so too was the human body it was assumed. composed of four substances called "humours." "Correspondences" existed everywhere, on many levels. Thus the hierarchical organization of the mental faculties was also thought of as reflecting the hierarchical order within the family, the state, and the forces of nature. When things were properly ordered, reason ruled the emotions, just as a king ruled his subjects, the parent ruled the child, and the sun governed the planets. But when disorder was present in one realm, it was correspondingly reflected in other realms. Stripping "The Secret Doctrine"'s system from its ontological and cosmological assumptions leaves us with an attempt at for example classifying humans. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Mic Forster wrote: > > Are the Aborigines of a lower evolutionary state than > > the white man, as conjectured by Leadbeater and other > > theosophists? > > Well, first of all, technically speaking, WE'RE at the lowest > evolutionary state; remember, we reached this point from an > INvolutionary process. > > According to the Mahatma Letters, the Aborigines have the remnants of > the CIVILIZATION of the 4th Root Race; this is what probably caused the > confusion. Certainly, from the description of the 4th Root Race, it is > clear that their bodies were not what we currently call "humanoid." > > Bart Lidofsky From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 02:32:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 09:32:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 15172 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 09:32:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 09:32:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 09:32:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 09:32:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:32:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <091c01c242a0$e7c8eae0$869287d9@u0z2y2> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 882 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.137.131 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach That one person on this planet , 4e Race members, would be "more evolved" then others for example " 5e Race" members as it is claimed in the Secret Doctrine is no longer acceptable. The same with the whole rest of the Hierarchical ladder in The Secret Doctrine, its outdated pseudo-science. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Ian McRae" wrote: > > Brian : The idea that humans are biologically different due to the > > laws of nature, and that they are getting more perfect, inescapably > > means that some (races or classes - it varies) are less worthy than > > others. > > Unfortunate choice of words here which makes it look prejudiced. > Personally, I would replace "less worthy" with "less evolved". > > Orra Best, > Ian From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Tue Aug 13 02:59:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 09:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 47153 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 09:59:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 09:59:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.195.172) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 09:59:16 -0000 Received: from modem-3569.lemur.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.141.241] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17eYSJ-0005QL-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:59:15 +0100 Message-ID: <096b01c242b0$869e6500$869287d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine. Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:49:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae > That one person on this planet , 4e Race members, would be "more > evolved" then others for example " 5e Race" members as it is claimed > in the Secret Doctrine is no longer acceptable. > > The same with the whole rest of the Hierarchical ladder in The Secret > Doctrine, its outdated pseudo-science. If you believe this, then it must be so. Orra Best, Ian From eso9990@yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 03:54:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eso9990@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 10:54:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 51963 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 10:54:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 10:54:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 10:54:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 10:54:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: About suicide Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020812225543.9043.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3943 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "eso9990" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.206.201 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=83934085 X-Yahoo-Profile: eso9990 Hello Ruben, This is an interesting subject you introduce here, especially in=20 these confusing times and on many different levels.=20 First I think a definition is in order. For me it would be something=20 along the lines of: ANY ACTION OR SERIES OF ACTIONS THAT WOULD LEAD=20 AN INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS TO KNOWINGLY AND IREVOCABLY=20 PARTICIPATE IN THEIR OWN DEMISE. That said, I would suggest two points for reflection and=20 consideration. First, using the above definition, I suggest that the=20 JESUS of the gospel stories, commited suicide. Given his cultural=20 awareness of the times in which he lived, he surley KNEW the=20 consequense of the public positions he took in the last three years=20 of his life. Given the opportunities he was given to recant and save=20 his life, he chose, NOT to revoke any of his statements that led him=20 to his curren dilemma. Hence, his actions led him to participating in=20 his own demise. The second important point related to this subject, is that of=20 sacrafice. Can one actually make a sacrafice without knowingly=20 participating in the actions that lead to it. I suggest that if one=20 does not fully understand what one is doing or is not enlightened=20 enough to understand the whole notion of sacrafice, then it cannot be=20 a sacrafice.=20 Laying down ones own life to save another, seems to me to be both,=20 SUICIDE and A SACRAFICE. Louis=20=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., lorelei varin de garzon =20 wrote: >=20 > 12 august 2002 - Arlington VA >=20 > My name is Ruben, firts time I present some comment on the Theo- talk. >=20 > Today, I would like to expose some comments on the subject of=20 suicide. >=20 > I have read some of the article of the theosphical society and Miss=20 Blavatsky. >=20 > But I'm still not convinced about the wise position to adopt about=20 Suicide. In almost all the comment on the matter, I understand that=20 to commit suicide is a sin, and the person who kill himself would=20 have to assume the responsabilities of his own death in the next life=20 with more difficulties (If I'm wrong, please tell me).=20 >=20 > Well, as my opinion, there is something incorrect about these=20 judgments. It seems that we forget one quality important: The=20 compassion for sick souls. >=20 > I dont think there is any punishment at all. The only punishment=20 will come frome the oun soul. People with Schizophrenia for example=20 are living in a vicious mind in which they are turning around and=20 around and around without find any solution. Horrible disturbance of=20 the mind in wich a soul is completely lost. Someone with these kind=20 of illness will never see the light, life after life, if he has to=20 assume his suicide. >=20 > I've heard of a story that people like the Esquimo (who live in the=20 Groenland Island) accept the notion of suicide in the case that a=20 person is unsatisfied of his life and decide to leave the material=20 world. What about The japanese samurai who prartice HaraKiri. And I'm=20 pretty sure that many cases of suicide, and suicide collectif can be=20 shown in nature. >=20 > The notion of sin still come from our western culture. People who=20 has deep depresion, we used to say that he is passing a hard time but=20 if he past through he will feel much better with a superior=20 understanding of the meaning of life. The fact is there is thousands=20 of people who don't pass through and find the experience so=20 unbearable that death is the only acceptable solution. I think=20 Suicide is part of the process of knowledge. It can probably called a=20 mistake but our path for a spiritual evolution always happens because=20 of mistake. >=20 > Well, I hope I will receive some answer about these subject. Please=20 to excuse my errors of writting english, it's not my native language.=20 Thanks. >=20 > RUBEN >=20 > .=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 04:28:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 11:27:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 51695 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 11:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 11:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 11:27:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2002 11:27:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:27:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Secret Doctrine as a Religion. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1635 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.137.131 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Ian: If you "believe" this. Brian: That is the ultimate religious fall back stand. The problem with Theosophical religious beliefs is that they are either non-evidentiary (like the information in "The Secret Doctrine") or they pre-suppose a suspension of 2002 science. There is noting close to any evidence that there is such a thing as 3e, 4e, or/and 5e race as it is claimed in the Secret Doctrine. And the same with the whole rest of the Hierarchical ladder in The Secret Doctrine, it is indeed only a religious belief. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > That one person on this planet , 4e Race members, would be "more > evolved" then others for example " 5e Race" members as it is claimed > in the Secret Doctrine is no longer acceptable. > > The same with the whole rest of the Hierarchical ladder in The Secret > Doctrine, its outdated pseudo-science. > > > Brian > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Ian McRae" wrote: > > > Brian : The idea that humans are biologically different due to the > > > laws of nature, and that they are getting more perfect, inescapably > > > means that some (races or classes - it varies) are less worthy than > > > others. > > > > Unfortunate choice of words here which makes it look prejudiced. > > Personally, I would replace "less worthy" with "less evolved". > > > > Orra Best, > > Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 13 05:28:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 12:28:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 50542 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 12:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 12:28:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 12:28:12 -0000 Received: from pool0055.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.55] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17eamK-0000Td-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:28:05 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Bible/SD Study: Noah, His Ark and the Flood Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:25:21 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 8 2002 Dear Larry: Here is one way of looking at the Deluge: If we go to The SECRET DOCTRINE we find the following accounts: Each sidereal year (25, 868 years) witnesses a deluge: S D I 649, II 145, 329, 785, At the close of each Root-Race: S D II 309, The Bible references are described in S D II 703-4, Berosus of Babylon figured their records according to the zodiac, at the time of Alexander successful invasion and conquest: S D I 649-50; Hindu computations: S D I 369; Old civilizations have been destroyed: S D II 311-2, 774, New forms and bodies emerge after deluges and cataclysms: S D II 262-3, 500fn, Every race records deluges: S D II 787, 787fn, Not all have been violent and sudden, some take thousands of years: S D II 787, The 3rd Race ( Lemurians) were destroyed: S D ii 714, The 4th Race ( Atlanteans) were destroyed by deluges: S D II 144, 149, 314, ] Geology records evidence of S D II 486, Prediction as to the next and effect on present continents, Europe and America: S D I 646, II 266, 332-3, 445-6 The history of a real Deluge -- It speaks of the disappearance of the last large island (named Poseidonis) of Atlantis, it was located in the North Atlantic ocean and to the West of Ireland. This event occurred about 11, 000 years ago. Since you have The SECRET DOCTRINE look up in Vol. 2, pp. 349-50, 533-4, 636, 751. I have noted that they discovered a sunken city off the Western coast of Cuba in the Caribean Sea -- some speculate that it may be related to old Atlantis, it still remains to be investigated. Do you recall the great old statues that the Taliban in Afghanistan blew up about 2 years ago. Again in The SECRET DOCTRINE read what H.P.Blavatsky gives as a description: S D 2nd Vol., pp 336-40 apparently they were built about a million years ago. Also the Pyramids have a very much greater antiquity than Egyptologists allow. H P B says they have been 3 times under water. S D Vol. 1, 435; II 429, You can bring this information out if you find people interested in such things. Introduce them to The SECRET DOCTRINE and also to ISIS UNVEILED which has a wealth of information. In ISIS UNVEILED read in I U Vol. 2 from pp 288-9 onward -- fascinating accounts. This is the original of what is narrated in the Bible. There Noah is made to represent a small section of Humanity whose lives were not selfish and were therefore a stock that was to be "saved." Those who practised terrible selfishness were the ones destroyed by a natural cataclysm as Nature could no longer support them. ------------------------------ WHERE THE RISHIS WERE The Rishis were the sacred Bards, the Saints, the great Adepts Known to the Hindus, who gave great spiritual impulses in the Past and are said to sometimes reincarnate, and who at one time lived on the earth among men. "The world is made of seas and islands. For continents are only great lands water-encircled. Men must ever live upon sea or land, then, unless they abide in air, and if they live in the air, they are not men as we know them." Thus I thought as the great ship steamed slowly into the port of a small island, and before the anchor fell the whole scene seemed to change and the dazzling light of the past blotted out the dark pictures of modern civilization. Instead of an English ship I was standing on an ancient vehicle propelled by force unknown today, until the loud noises of disembarkation roused me once again. But landed now, I was standing on the hill overlooking the town and bay. The strange light and the curious vehicle again obtained mastery over sense and eye, while the whole majesty of forgotten years rolled in from the Ocean. Vainly did modern education struggle and soar: I let the curtain drop upon the miserable present. Now softly sings the water as it rolls against the shore, with the sun but one hour old shining upon its surface. But, far off, what is that spot coming nearer from the West, followed by another and another until over the horizon rise hundreds, and now some are so near that they are plainly seen? The same strange vehicles as that I saw at first. Like birds they fly through the air. They come slowly now, and some have been brought still on the land. They light on the earth with a softness that seems nearly human, with a skill that is marvelous, without any shock or rebound. From them alight men of noble mien who address me as friends, and one more noble than the others seems to say, "Wouldst thou know of all this? Then come," as he turns again to his vehicle that stands there like a bird in wait to be off. "Yes, I will go;" and I felt that the past and the present were but one, and knew what I should see, yet could not remember it but with a vagueness that blotted out all the details. We entered the swift intelligently-moving vehicle, and then it rose up on the air's wide-spreading arms and flew again fast to the West, where the water was still softly singing to the beams of the sun. The horizon slowly rose and the Island behind us was hidden by the sea from our sight. And still as onward we flew to the Occident, many more birds made by manlike that we were in flew by us as if in haste for the soft-singing waters lapping the shore of that peak of the sea mountain we had left in the Orient. Flying too high at first we heard no sound from the sea, but soon a damp vapor that blew in my face from the salt deep showed that we were descending, and then spoke my friend. "Look below and around and before you!" Down there were the roar and rush of mad billows that reached toward the sky, vast hollows that sucked in a world. Black clouds shut out the great sun, and I saw that the crust of the earth was drawn in to her own subterranean depths. Turning now to the master, I saw that he heard my unuttered question. He said, "A cycle has ended. The great bars that kept back the sea have been broken down by their weight. From these we have come and are coming." Then faster sailed our bird, and I saw that a great Island was perishing. What was left of the shore still crumbled, still entered the mouth of the sea. And there were cars of the air just the same as that I was in, only dark and unshining, vainly trying to rise with their captains; rising slowly, then falling, and then swallowed up. But here we have rushed further in where the water has not overflowed, and now we see that few are the bright cars of air that are waiting about while their captains are entering and spoiling the mighty cars of the men whose clothing is red and whose bodies, so huge and amazing, are sleeping as if from the fumes of a drug. As these great red men are slumbering, the light-stepping captains with sun-colored cloaks are finishing the work of destruction. And now, swiftly though we came, the waters have rushed on behind us, the salt breath of the all-devouring deep sweeps over us. The sun-colored captains enter their light air-cars and rise with a sweep that soon leaves the sleepers, now waking, behind them. The huge red-coated giants hear the roar of the waters and feel the cold waves roll about them. They enter their cars, but only to find all their efforts are wasted. Soon the crumbling earth no longer supports them, and all by an inrushing wave are engulfed, drawn into the mouth of the sea, and the treacherous ocean with roars as of pleasure in conquest has claimed the last race of that Island. But one has escaped of all the red giants, and slowly but surely his car sailed up, up, as if to elude the sun-colored men who were spoilers. Then, loud, clear, and thrilling swelled out a note of marvelous power from my captain, and back came a hundred of those brilliant fast cars that were speeding off eastward. Now they pursue the heavy, vast, slow-moving car of the giant, surround it, and seem to avoid its attacks. Then again swells that note from my master as our car hung still on its wings. It was a signal, obeyed in an instant. One brilliant, small sharp-pointed car is directed full at the red giant's vehicle. Propelled by a force that exceeds the swift bullet, it pierces the other, itself, too, is broken and falls on the waves with its victim. Trembling I gazed down below, but my captain said kindly, "He is safe, for he entered another bright car at the signal. All those red-coated men are now gone, and that last was the worse and the greatest." Back eastward once more through the salt spray and the mist until soon the bright light shone again and the Island rose over the sea with the soft-singing water murmuring back to the sun. We alighted, and then, as I turned, the whole fleet of swift sailing cars disappeared, and out in the sky flashed a bright streak of sun-colored light that formed into letters which read: "This is where the Rishis were before the chalk cliffs of Albion rose out of the wave. They were but are not." And loud, clear and thrilling rose that note I had heard in the car of swift pinions. It thrilled me with sadness, for past was the glory and naught for the future was left but a destiny. (Wm. Q. Judge) ----------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Larry Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 2:23 PM To: Subject Bible/SD Study: Noah, His Ark and the Flood It's time to take a look at perhaps one of the most universally known stories in the entire world, that of the Great Flood. So universal is this tale that even those who can not accept any of the religious elements of the story have to admit that there is something behind it. As such this has been a favorite theme over the years. But just as it is universally known, it is also universally misinterpreted. But once again, THE SECRET DOCTRINE sets them straight. It will take a while to get through all of this, as this the second "major" Bible story, the Creation being the first. Just the Bible verses are quite involved. So I will post them first for all to read. But instead of just posting them "as is," I want to share some modern Bible scholarship as we do this. I had mentioned that this tale offers a good look at how the "redactor," the person or persons who actually assembled Genesis from the several versions available at that time, performed his cut and paste job. This story is the skillful blending of two very different tellings of Noah, his ark and the flood. These are denoted (J) and (P). I will simply give the entire passage as is in KJV but break it into paragraphs with the (J) or (P) proceeding. If your not interested in that breakdown, just ignore the (J) and (P)s. I hope some at least will read through the entire passage as compiled and the go back and read the two separate threads. (Read all the (J)s in sequence and then all the (P)s.) It should also be noted that all scholars do not agree on the exact same breakdown of these verses (but what else is new) This is given then for the general idea of the thing, not as the final word. If I remember correctly, I copied these notations into my own study Bible from the ANCHOR BIBLE series. This is Gen. 6:5 to Gen. 8:19. (J) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from off the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (P) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit thou shalt finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set it the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven ; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so he did. (J)And the Lord said unto Noah, come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. For yet seven days, and I will cause it ti rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him. (P) And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. (J) And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. (P) In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (J) And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 13 05:28:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 13 Aug 2002 12:28:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 8419 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 12:28:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Aug 2002 12:28:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 12:28:58 -0000 Received: from pool0055.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.55] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17eamw-0000Td-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:28:42 -0700 To: "Daniel Caldwel" Subject: RE: Dallas about SD Vol III Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:25:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 11 2002 Sear Daniel: I will add some notes to the text of your inquiry below if you do not mind. Dal ================== -----Original Message----- From: Daniel h Caldwell Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 Subject: Dallas about SD Vol III Dallas, you write in part: > 1. We do not know if H P B modified the material sent in > 1886 to Adyar after that date. I would assume she did, but > of course, I have no concrete basis to offer. It is my > opinion after many years study. . . . > 4. Why should H P B use only the MSS that was sent to Adyar > ? Why would she not have added to it? She wrote that it > was READY. So she must have prepared a great deal of > written MSS for that purpose. Madame Blavatsky may have added and modified the material found in the 1886-1887 manuscripts of the SD. But before going into that issue, do you agree that in the summer of 1887 Volume I became Volume III as reported by Bertram Keightley and also verified by comparing the SD manuscript at Adyar with what was published in 1888? =============================== DTB For the reason that I am unsure of the contents of the MSS as defined, I would hesitate to agree sight unseen. That is to me, assuming too much. Within the context you define, it seems to me that this sounds correct. But, was it CORRECT ? I do not know and am therefore uncertain in terms of exactitude. I have to agree that the contents listed as "Vol. I" seem to have been displaced by the Keightleys to a third volume, never published under H P B. The THIRD VOLUME was the result of Mrs. a. Besant's editing and apparently includes those articles listed and said to have formed originally part of Vol. I , as copied by Countess Wachmeister and sent to Adyar for Subba Row in 1886, to review. (see MEMORANDUM Dt. Oct 26 1926 below.) ================================ Dallas, to be even more specific, look at the following essays or sections in the Volume I manuscript of the SD sent by HPB to Olcott who received this volume in early Dec. 1886. [All of this documented by the SD manuscript at Adyar, in HPB's letters to Olcott of this time period and also by Olcott's diary for 1886.] * White and Black Magic in Theory and Practice * Hermes and the 32 Ways of Wisdom * Mathematics and Geometry--- The Keys to the Universal Problems * The Key of the Absolute in Magic-- the Hexagon with the Central Point -- or the Seventh Key * Who Was the Adept of Tyana? * The Roman Church Dreads the Publication of the Real Life of Apollonius * Confession and Property in Common * What the Occultists and Kabalists Have to Say * The Souls of the Star -- Universal Heliolatry * The Mystery "Sun of Initiation" The Trial of the Sun-lnitiate There is no doubt that these essays written by HPB were in Volume I of the SD as of 1886. Now let us take it further: If Bertram Keightley's eyewitness account is accepted that Volume I became Volume III only 6 months later (i.e. by summer of 1887), then is it not clear that these essays listed above would have gone from Volume I to volume III? In other words, once the volumes were rearranged in the new order, a reader of the SD manuscript would have found the above listed material in the Volume III manuscript. Is this conclusion so hard to accept in light of the primary source evidence I have previously cited? ==================================== 1 DTB Since I have no means of verifying the accuracy of what details those writers were dealing with I, would find it unwise for me to assume that there was an exact correlation. In other words, those MSS as listed, may be found in the VOLUME III published in 1897, and also, in that volume, solely edited by Mrs. Besant, there is to be found different material coming from a different provenance. We have no definite clue as to where this was obtained, or whether this was intended by H P B to be part of the 3rd or the 4th Volumes. I would not assume that Mrs. A. Besant's editing is the THIRD VOLUME as H P B might have finally issued it. Even your good reconstruction is an opinion. If, or when. additional documents emerge, that opinion will be modified by them. In trying to reconstruct the past, using whatever documents are at hand, we are left guessing, and assuming opinions -- when the writers of that period used the phrase "VOLUME III," did they mean the TOTAL INFORMATION that H P B might have placed in a "IIIrd VOLUME" as finally edited by her? On that point I would demur. It is assuming too much. We are too remote in time to ascertain by direct conversation exactly what happened. I also observe H P B did not leave us, either in 1886 or 1888 a list of the chapters she would include in Vol. 3, (and/or 4) in spite of the list and the MSS sent by her to Adyar in 1886, modifications were still in her hands up to the time when she died. [Mr. Mullies writes (below) that Mrs. Besant claimed she never saw the MSS of either Vol. III or IV.] ------------------- 2 Daniel: I have in the archives at the U L T a typed "MEMORANDUM OF INTERVIEW WITH DR. ANNIE Besant. It is prepared by a Canadian journalist named William Mullies. ( or Mulliss ?) October 6, 1926. The copy I have is a carbon and quite blurred. It is also unsigned and I have not been able to find if it was ever used or published by the Los Angeles EXAMINER, whom he represented at that interview. I am unaware of the "memorandum" being published anywhere. .The contents appear to be forthright. They are worth considering, but in themselves they decide nothing. ========================== 2 Dallas, I hope that you will deal with this specific point. Daniel H. Caldwell "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. =============================================== DTB me also deal here with your 2nd posting (same date) which reads: ----------------------- Dallas, thanks for your remarks and observations. You raise some good points but to answer some of your questions and observations, I will have to go over a good amount of material and try to present each item one point at a time. Unless this is done, a great deal of additional confusion may be created. For this posting I will reply to your statement which reads: "2. If modified, and I assume it was, then why was it never produced or mentioned clearly by Judge, her executor, the Keightleys, or Mead ? After H P B's death, some of the MSS of articles in her 'desk' were published in LUCIFER. But nothing was said about the MSS of the THIRD VOLUME being considered or edited for possible publication later on. This omission is to me significant. I would have thought that this would be of primary importance then (in 1891)." But SOMETHING in fact was said in 1891 and later after HPB's death about "the MSS of the THIRD VOLUME being considered or edited for possible publication later on." If you turn to my essay at: http://www. you will find that Isabel Cooper-Oakley wrote in THE PATH magazine, December 1891, page 295 the following: "The H.P.B. Press...is developing into a regular printing office....A new edition of The Secret Doctrine is to lead the van, and last but not least the third volume is to be published." (Isabel's statement is dated in Oct. 1891 from London.) And Dr. Archibald Keightley wrote in a letter to Bertram Keightley in October, 1891: "There is some talk of entirely reprinting Secret Doctrine [Volumes I and II] and of correcting errors when the Third Volume is issued." (cited by C. Jinarajadasa in "Dr. Besant and Mutilation of the Secret Doctrine," MESSENGER, January 1926, page 166.) And after Volumes I and II of the SD were reissued in late 1893, readers of LUCIFER would have seen in the January, 1894 issue the following statement: "The third volume of The Secret Doctrine is being typewritten from the MS." There may be other statements to this effect during this time period in the various Theosophical journals. The above evidence shows that your statement is not accurate as given. =========================== DTB Nor is my statement inaccurate, if you take into account the vagueness of definitions. Some non-technical individuals do not always distinguish between "editions" and "volumes." But while this may or may not be the case here, some of the statements are an individual's opinion, as no definite information as to detailed contents is given then . I have seen some reference made to worn-out plates requiring the resetting of the first 2 volumes and also a request went out asking for lists of errata -- thus explaining the correcting of numerous errata therein. The 3rd Edition of the first 2 vols. of the S D was issued in re-set type and corrected (40,000 (?) alterations ) in 1893 by the Theosophical Publishing House in London. I believe that this 3rd EDITION was edited under the supervision of Mrs. Besant and Mr. Mead.. And, I do not find that Mr. Judge objected to it. The matter of the contents of the THIRD VOLUME is another matter of course. Was it destroyed? Was it preserved? Was it issued (1897) exactly as H P B might have presented it? I do not know and make no assumptions. ============================== More in later postings. Daniel H. Caldwell ====================== ====================== MULLIES MEMORANDUM Copied from a carbon at the archives of the U L T Los Angeles. ------------------------------------ MEMORANDUM OF INTERVIEW WITH DR ANNIE BESANT. October 6, 1926 by William Mullies ( or Mulliss ?) When I arrived in Los Angeles on Sunday morning last I had no idea that Mrs. Besant was also in the city, and having occasion to call on Mr. George Young, the Publisher and Editor of the Los Angeles EXAMINER on Monday afternoon, it occurred to me that the time might be opportune to arrange for a meeting with Mrs. Besant. Mr. Young was quite ready to fall into the suggestion that I interview Mrs. Besant as a representative of the Los Angeles EXAMINER, and he gave instructions to his Managing Editor to arrange the interview if possible. After some preliminary difficulties a meeting was arranged for 9:30 Wednesday morning at the home of a person identified to me as the Rev. John Ingleman, 2154 Beachwood Blvd., Hollywood. When I arrived Mrs. Besant was already occupied with visitors. She received me very graciously and in her private room. I explained to Mrs. Besant that I was a newspaper man representing both Canadian and American newspapers; that I was not unfamiliar with the subject of Theosophy and in that respect she would not be meeting the usual type of interviewer who had no special knowledge of the subject under discussion and criticism. She seemed to be interested in the fact that I was a Canadian for she observed she had lectured in Vancouver and that she later on expected to visit Toronto, and, in an aside, she expressed her regrets that she would not be able to visit Ottawa where a family, whose name I caught as Weddington, were living, this family having been with her for some time at Madras. The first paragraph in my memorandum set forth that in my examination and research into the history of the Theosophical Movement the situation, as I found it to-day, was that there were several sincere and important groups of students, each proclaiming themselves as the believers and exponents of true Theosophy and to be promulgating the same doctrine and teachings as were given out by H. P. Blavatsky. In an incisive and commanding way she almost demanded to see my memorandum. With regard to the first observation her comment was that she had no fault to find, no criticism to offer, of any Society or group of students who were studying, teaching or preaching Theosophy. She, however, reverted to the adjective with which I prefaced the word Theosophy and in so doing apparently reserved the right to classify as she thought best just which was the true Theosophy. My next question was: 'Do you believe H. P. Blavatsky was an accredited Agent of those exalted Intelligences which are known to Theosophists as Mahatmas?" There was no hesitancy in answering this question. She said: "I unreservedly do. I know that H P B was the direct and only direct Agent of the Masters during her lifetime. I have never stated anything differently and can never believe otherwise. I came into contact with that wonderful woman through the medium of the late W. T. Stead, who put into my hands a book called THE SECRET DOCTRINE, written down by H. P. Blavatsky. From the very moment that I glanced into that book I knew I had found what I had been seeing, and never for a moment have I thought of departing from, or denying, the fundamental teachings of that great work. Mme. Blavatsky lived in my house for sometime before her death, and while the time was limited that I spent actually in her presence and her guidance and instruction, for my other appointments kept me busy travelling in various parts of the country, I still absorbed enough to do what she urgently instructed me to do and ordered me to do, that is, to go out into the world and to popularize Theosophy, which I have made my life's work." Relative to H.P.Blavatsky I enquired still further: "Do you believe that one of the Mahatmas in 1888 defined the status of H P B to Col. Olcott as being their best available Agent and the chief Agent since 1858?" "As I have already said," Mrs. Besant commented, "I am wholly convinced of H P B's bona fides and status, for I have been informed on higher authority that the body of H.P.Blavatsky was the greatest psychic instrument that the Masters had discovered in the western world for two hundred years.: "How do you interpret the following statement made in that same letter to Olcott: "there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come and you Theosophists should be made to understand it." There are many statements made, Mrs. Besant, in that letter which was published in a volume issued from the Theosophical Publishing House at Adyar in 1919, which seemed to be in conflict with statements that have been made and recorded in various books and writings since the passing of H P B in 1891. For instance, it is clearly stated in that letter by the Master K. H. that THE SECRET DOCTRINE corrected by Him or corrected under His instructions, yet in the face of the Master's statement - 'it is a more valuable work than its predecessor: an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come' - the charge has been made by students of H P B that thousands of unnecessary and unwarranted alterations, mutilations and deletions have been made in that work whose first edition carries the seal and sanction of approval of one of its inspirers, the Master K. H. Is there any truth in such charges and allegations? Mrs. B: What is this letter to which you refer ? Where is it published? Mr. M: The letter which I have quoted was published, as I have started by your Publishing House at Adyar in 1919. It was compiled and annotated by Mr. Jinarajadasa and carried with it a forward from yourself." Mrs. B: "Well, it was annotated and authorized by Mr. Jinarajadasa, it was certainly accurate. With regard to THE SECRET DOCTRINE, I do not necessarily regard it as an infallible book. You will note that the statement is made that THE SECRET DOCTRINE had been corrected by the Master K. H., or under His instructions. I take this to mean that this refers to the fundamental teachings and explanations and Commentaries on the Stanzas, rather than to the mass of general information with which the book deals. For instance, take the Second Volume: Much of that deals with a mass of details affecting scientific and other matters which we surely cannot accept as being absolutely correct and infallible. With regard to the changes and alterations, I am aware that much is preposterous and unjust to me has been circulated by my enemies and critics. I have long since passed the stage where I think it necessary to reply to such malicious and ill-natured out-pourings against me and my activities." Mr. M.: "I believe I have read somewhere - I think it was one of Mrs. Alice Cleather's books - that she claims that she and her students have checked up actually thirty thousand alterations." Mrs. B.: "I am sure I do not know and I am not interested in the number, but this I will say: H P Blavatsky did not claim to be an accomplished English linguist or grammarian. She scarcely knew English at all when ISIS UNVEILED was written in New York in 1877, and in London she many times had to appeal to G R S Mead and to others, myself included, for protection against errors in grammar and composition. She was not as proficient in English as I was and did not pretend to write with the same clarity and correctness. The alterations that were made I am satisfied were not changes in teachings or fundamentals, they were honestly made with the object of bringing about a clearer understanding of the writings." Mr. M.: "Your critics have insisted that somebody or other has deliberately suppressed the Third and Fourth Volumes of THE SECRET DOCTRINE to which H P B makes reference in the First Volume of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. What have you to say of this? Do you regard the Third Volume of your edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE entitled "Occultism" as containing any of the matter intended for the Third and Fourth Volumes ?" Mrs. B.: "I was appointed H P B's literary executor, and the matter from which I compiled the Third Volume of "Occultism" in THE SECRET DOCTRINE, published under my direction was compiled from a mass of miscellaneous writings found in her desk after her death. These I took under my own charge." Mr. M.: "Did Mead help you in the compilation of these articles?" Mrs. B.: "No. The papers came absolutely under my own hand and Mead had nothing to do with them." Mr. M.: "Well what about the material for the Third and Fourth Volumes?" Mrs. B.: "I never saw them and do to know what has become of them." Pursuing further the question of the accuracy of THE SECRET DOCTRINE Mrs. Besant made some illusions [allusions ?] to H P B from which one might surmise that she still regarded H P B as an embodied entity - as a living Master in the flesh in fact, for she said: "I have suggested to him the importance of coming out to the world again and doing what he could for the people, but" - and she shrugged her shoulders in a highly significant way - "He is very comfortable where He is in the North, and why should He? I want you to understand that we have had further illumination, especially on the subject of the World Teacher. This is a matter which I have taken up with Him as far back as 1912." Mr. M.: "Do I understand that you have, since the passing of H P B, received instructions and illumination that would correct or contradict the teachings as laid down in THE SECRET DOCTRINE?" Mrs. B.: "No, not to correct or to alter, or deny. We have simply received further illumination." Mr. M.: "I had the pleasure of meeting both Mr. Wadia and Mr. Ernest Wood who were under your instruction at Adyar for many years." Mrs. B.: "I regard Mr. Wadia as being an exceptionally able platform speaker." Mr. M.: "I understood from Mr. Wood that he had been Secretary for Mr. Leadbeater for a period of seven or eight years at Adyar. Mr. Wood spoke to me in the very highest terms of Mr. Leadbeater." Mrs. B.: "Mr. Leadbeater is a man of great personal purity of life and a most wonderful clairvoyant." Mr. M.: "His enemies seem to have made considerable capital out of his alleged perverted sexual proclivities. Mr. Wood was most indignant in his denial of such charges and in his denunciation of those who made them. He also told me that he too regarded Mr. Leadbeater as a great clairvoyant: in fact he said that he knew that Mr. Leadbeater could project his consciousness as far as the planet Mars; further, that he could describe the appearance and apparel of a man the other side of a brick wall. Mrs. B: "Yes, Mr. Leadbeater is a great clairvoyant. I have collaborated with him in many works: our "Occult Chemistry" written under his clairvoyant direction several years ago has been justified in later days by the discoveries of science which has had to acknowledge the truth of the propositions there propounded. With regard to Mr. Leadbeater and his purity of life, I have had many instances of his immaculateness on the question of sex. I have heard men of the world making flippant and improper remarks pertaining to sex matters which Mr. Leadbeater was wholly unable to understand, for his mind is not directed towards such subjects. He is a clean and brilliant character whose mind is an open book and the door of whose room is never locked." Mr. M.: "For a man to whom you so generously give so clean a reputation he seems to have fallen under a tremendous amount of misrepresentation and persecution." Mrs. B.: "So do we all. We all come under the lash of criticism of the ignorant and credulous. We all make mistakes in judgment. In my younger days I have been guilty of the same things." Mr. M.: "Mr. Judge whom I persuaded was the greatest of the Teachers after H P B came similarly under this persecution by biased and prejudiced minds, yet I find you in later years - within the last four or five years - referring to him as "that incomparable man, Judge," using a cabinet photo of him in your magazine." Mrs. B.: "I pay no longer any attention to slanders. A I said, I too have made many mistakes, and that in regard to Judge, I was young in the Movement then, impetuous, and in my zeal did things that I would not think of doing to-day. Judge did a great work in the West and although I still believe that some of his claims are untenable, he did splendid work for Masters and for Theosophy in America. The Society will survive ruthless destructive criticism. It was nearly wrecked in 1885 by ambitions and personalities. I am convinced after long experience that our sole consideration should be principles - not personalities." At this point in the interview, Mrs. Besant becoming restive, and evidently having other appointments, I suggested that I leave with her the memorandum containing all the questions which I had submitted to her, and further suggested that at her leisure and when she was no improperly crowded with extraneous affairs that she might take time to answer the queries therein contained. This was very readily agreed to. She said she could not possibly do it while she was lecturing here but she would have time when traveling, and would forward her observations to my permanent address which I left with her. The Complete memorandum left with Mrs. Besant was as follows: In my examination and research into the history of the Theosophical Movement the situation, as I found it to-day is that there are several sincere and important groups of students, each proclaiming themselves as the believers and exponents of true Theosophy and to be promulgating the same doctrine and teachings as were given out by H. P. Blavatsky. Do you believe H. P. Blavatsky was an accredited agent of those exalted intelligences which are known to Theosophists as Mahatmas?" Do you believe that one of the Mahatmas in 1888 defined the status of H P B to Col. Olcott as being their best available agent and the chief agent since 1858?" "How do you interpret the following statement made in that same letter to Olcott: "...There is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come and you theosophists should be made to understand it." There are many statements made, in that letter which was published in a volume issued from the Theosophical Publishing House at Adyar in 1919 which seem to be in conflict with statements that have been made and recorded in various books and writings since the passing of H P B in 1891. For instance, it is clearly stated in that letter by the Master K. H. that THE SECRET DOCTRINE had been corrected by him or corrected under his instructions. Yet in the face of the Master's statement, 'it is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come' the charge has been made by students of H P B hat thousands of unnecessary and unwarranted alterations, mutilations and deletions have been made in that work whose first edition carries the seal and sanction of approval of one of its inspirers, the Master K. H. Is there any truth in such charges and allegations? Do you regard the volume first published in 1923 by T. Fisher Unwin, Ltd., London, entitled "THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A. P. SINNETT" from the Mahatmas M. and K.H. As being authentic? Criticism has been general that no reference whatever has been made in your magazine THE THEOSOPHIST to this publication. Is that criticism correct? Would you care to explain, if this is in accord with the first, why you have ignored any reference to this important contribution to Theosophic literature, providing, of course, that you regard it as genuine? On page 203, MAHATMA LETTERS, referring to H P B, K.H. observes "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link between that country and our own." If it was so desperately difficult to find only one person available as an agent for the Mahatmas after a century of search how do you account for the flock of self-labeled Mahatmic agents and instruments that have come to light since the passing of H P B? Those who adhere strictly to the teachings and writings of H P B and the Mahatmas complain that later writers have set up an anthropomorphic conception of deity and have also instituted the necessity of a clergy and a church, which is familiarly known as the Liberal Catholic Church, and that while you made it clear that the Liberal Catholic Church is no part of the Theosophical Society of which you are the head, you have not discouraged members of the society from becoming adherents of that church and of accepting the ritual, the creedal and sacramental rites which that church observes. In the face of that how do you explain the following statement made by the Master K.H. ".....we know there is in our system no such thing as God, either personal or impersonal....The word 'god' was invented to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either admired or dreaded without understanding them, and since we claim and that we are to prove what we claim - i.e., the knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain there is no God or Gods behind them...The idea of God is not an innate but an acquired notion..." "The real evil proceeds from human intelligence and its origin rests entirely with reasoning man who dissociates himself from Nature. Humanity then alone is the true source of evil. Evil is the exaggeration of good, the progeny of human selfishness and greediness..."I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two-thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and in whatever nation. It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the churches. It is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods and cunning took advantage of opportunity. Look at India and look at Christendom and Islam, at Judaism, and Fetishes. It is priestly imposture that rendered these Gods so terrible to man: it is religion that makes of him the selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind out of his own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is belief in God and Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves of a handful of those who deceive them under the false pretense of saving them." Oct. 25, 1926 ADDMEMO OF INTERVIEW WITH DR. ANNIE BESANT Among various obiter dicta in the interview, Mrs. Besant took occasion to express her opinion with regard to the publication of THE LETTERS OF H P BLAVATSKY TO A. P. Sinnett. She said: - "I regard this as a most scandalous outrage which should never have been published. If it had been advisable to do so, Sinnett would have done it, but he never did." Referring to her degree of doctor of laws, she explained with some pleasurable pride, that hers was degree number two, the Prince of Wales being No. 1, having received the honor from the same University in India on the previous day. She asked if I had ever met Jinarajadasa, and also, if I had yet received a copy of "THE GOLDEN BOOK OF THE THEOSOP