From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 04:35:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 12:35:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 30957 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 851 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve: It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. Brian: There is no evidence it was his body. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > it is pretty certain that Blavatsky herself didn't > > write them, but that doesn't mean that she didn't give someone the > basic > > content to rewrite in their own words). > > The author of the "Shannon" letter states that Blavatsky was one of > the "amanuensis chelas" and says that from 1885 onward she was the > only one, which suggests Damodar was the other. It was in 1885 that > Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. A behavior which is > radically inconsistent with the statements of Hodgson and others that > he was a con artist who did not believe in the mahatmas. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 04:49:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 45323 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:49:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if you want to believe it or not. Steve: Kargyu lineage Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the burden to > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > I > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > letters, such > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other then by > > either HPB or Damodar. > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a mystery. > > > Even Paul Johnson > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of anything. > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > right mind > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > highest > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- > yourselves > > the white conquerors. > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed to > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and migration > theory. > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > whoever > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > not even > > Indian. > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has nothing > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with red > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood." That > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a moment > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > things. From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 01 05:30:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 11463 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from pool0211.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.211] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 187bsa-0007EA-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 05:30:28 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:26:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Friend: Are you able to give positive references for what you write. There is apparently much dependence on memory -- but the facts are not clear. Dallas --------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:01 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > it is pretty certain that Blavatsky herself didn't > write them, but that doesn't mean that she didn't give someone the basic > content to rewrite in their own words). The author of the "Shannon" letter states that Blavatsky was one of the "amanuensis chelas" and says that from 1885 onward she was the only one, which suggests Damodar was the other. It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. A behavior which is radically inconsistent with the statements of Hodgson and others that he was a con artist who did not believe in the mahatmas. WHERE DOES HE SO STATE ? I have not seen this so stated. D ---------------------------- WHO SAID THAT DAMODAR FROZE TO DEATH ? THERE WAS AN UNVERIFIED REPORT TO THIS EFFECT I believe Olcott mentions this-- am I right ? D. Dallas From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 07:11:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 38167 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:11:25 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:11:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte on "valid" evidence about The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2670 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte writes: "It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence [that the mahatma] letters are what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if you want to believe it or not." Brian/Brigitte's above comment got me thinking. A critic may say that he is opened minded toward the issue of the Mahatma Letters and whether "what they say they are" is true or not. Such a critic may further state that he is cautious in his approach and therefore needs "valid" evidence, "trustworthy" evidence to convince him of the Mahatma Letters' "claim". I think such a position is quite understandable and rational. I do not know if Brian/Brigitte is that open-minded or not. I suspect not. But if such a critic wants "valid" evidence before accepting the ML claim, then it seems that the critic should be able to define (at least in his own mind!) what kind of evidence he would accept as VALID. In other words, such a critic should be able to specify in advance the type of evidence (if found) that he would consider "valid" and "convincing"? If Brian/Brigitte will specify what kind of VALID evidence he/she has in mind, some of us on this forum may be able to find just this kind of evidence. Another point. Brian/Brigitte writes: "At the moment there [is] NO EVIDENCE . . . . " caps added. It is not evident exactly what is meant by this. But this vague statement certainly reminds me of the position of the "scoffer" of the paranormal. Here is Dr. Marcello Truzzi's relevant remarks: "The perspective of the scoffer, as with most dogmatists, tends to distinguish only black from white and fails to acknowledge gray areas. . . . Scoffers use a similar foreshortening towards issues of evidence. It is common to hear statements to the effect that 'there is no evidence supporting a claim' when in fact it is merely inadequate evidence that has been presented. Evidence is always a matter of degree, some being extremely weak; but even weak evidence can mount up (as shown by meta-analysis) to produce a stronger case. Weak evidence (most commonly anecdotal rather than systematic and experimental evidence) is often discounted, however, by assertions [by the scoffer] that it falls below some threshold of what science should consider evidence at all. This, of course, eliminates the evidential basis for most of clinical medicine and the social sciences, but that seems to hold no terror for the scoffer who invokes such criteria." Quoted from: http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/anomalistics/practices.htm Daniel From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:14:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 50273 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:14:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:14:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 347 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Steve: It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into > Tibet. > > Brian: There is no evidence it was his body. That was Olcott's argument, that he made it to the master's ashram. However that might be, the fact remains that he left the scene in 1885. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:19:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:19:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 57229 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 732 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if > you want to believe it or not. Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is anyy evidence. > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race The questionhere is whether "white" applied to a society in India or Tibet has anything to do with white skin. As for an authentic document from that source, you may have just quoted one. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:22:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:22:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 94941 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 348 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Dear Friend: > > Are you able to give positive references for what you write. There is > apparently much dependence on memory -- but the facts are not clear. The Shannon letter has been reprinted over and over again. Probably Daniel Caldwell has a copy of it somewhere. Please apply to him. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 07:29:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 79708 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:29:42 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6366D482875 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:29:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002901c281ba$d3ae2260$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:24:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Please Brian could you be more specific when you refer to the in the below mentioned Mahatma Letter of racism ?? What number is it ? What year is it from ? etc.... Please... from M. Sufilight with his book torn apart....>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. > Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if > you want to believe it or not. > > Steve: Kargyu lineage > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves > the white conquerors. The majority of mankind > belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above > mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, > Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other > sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All > these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? > > Brian > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > wrote: > > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the burden to > > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post > > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > I > > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > > letters, such > > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other then by > > > either HPB or Damodar. > > > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a mystery. > > > > > Even Paul Johnson > > > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of anything. > > > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > > right mind > > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > > highest > > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- > > yourselves > > > the white conquerors. > > > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed to > > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and migration > > theory. > > > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > > whoever > > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > > not even > > > Indian. > > > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has nothing > > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with red > > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood." That > > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a > moment > > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > > things. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:46:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 44996 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:46:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:46:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:46:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002901c281ba$d3ae2260$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 35031 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Sweet Sufilight : Please Brian could you be more specific when you=20 refer to the in the below mentioned Mahatma Letter of racism ?? What number is it ? What year is it from ? etc.... If you just place one of the key words in: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/psearch.htm=20=20=20=20=20 You will automatically get the letter from K.H. to Sinnet that I referred t= =3D=0D o=20 in my previous posting plus some others also, because there are many=20 Mahatma Letters saying the same thing. Also I prefer feed back to this somewhat harsch but factual article (one=20 of a series of 8) on my website. I didn't write it all myself but I did mos= =3D=0D t=20 of the research being exhausted I must say, it was a maraton: Due to new documents that surfaced shortly before Timothy McVeigh's=20 execution he was about to break his silence regarding the "third man",=20 the leader of the cell (?) he belonged to and the Oklahoma City=20 bombing, which killed 169 people. Due to the new evidence that the FBI=20 suddenly brought to the surface Timothy McVeigh requested a new trial,=20 but this was not granted and so McVeigh took whatever he new of=20 the "third man" with him in the grave.=20 Documents and testimonies found by the Guardian and the Star Tribune=20 of Minneapolis show that neo-Nazi paramilitary groups and Aryan=20 supremacists declared their intention to launch a `war' against the=20 government in Oklahoma , under the nose of the FBI. And hinted at in=20 Behold a Pale Horse, a book full of neo-Theosophical teachings and=20 conspiracy theories published in 1991 by an ideologue of the militia=20 movement, William Cooper. His book is one of the manifesto of the=20 militia movement.=20 Irrelevant of Muhammad or McVeigh's involvement with the indicated=20 extremist Religious groups, what this series of articles will investigate = =3D=0D instead is the inter-action between Black and White Racialism.=20 As indicated in the first part of this 5 or 6 part investigation, racism = =3D=0D pervaded various spheres of organized thought, including American=20 nationalism and religion. Racism was at the heart of the country, part of=20 its very foundation. It was not disputed, other than among groups at the=20 margins of society.=20 White supremacy was truly a way of life, the "natural" order on which=20 civilization rested. Scientific racism was established in learned=20 academic circles, racism was part of the conventional Christian=20 denominations, it was a chief principle in the judicial system, it was the = =3D=0D upholder of decent morality and it organized the social space of society. = =3D=0D White religious racism only emerged as a systematic deviant theology to=20 form the basis of a separate nationalist quest following the gradual and=20 painful deconstruction of institutionalized white supremacy and the=20 subsequent inclusion of blacks as part of the American "nation." Its=20 formative period coincided with the first attacks on racism as state=20 sanctioned law and the norm of society. Initially, it held a largely=20 conservative outlook, which successively was pushed further out to the=20 margins. During the past few decades it has become increasingly more=20 radical and revolutionary, as a diminishing number of white radical=20 racialists believe that there is something left to conserve. Its present=20 resurgence and international pan-Aryan networking seems to be=20 connected to the process of globalization, and its adherents are today=20 interconnected in a global, though uneasy, network.=20 Christian Identity can be described as the recasting of the older British- = =3D=0D Israelite creed on white racial nationalist, anti Semitic, and, largely,=20 National Socialist grounds. British-Israelism took shape in England at the = =3D=0D latter part of the nineteenth century. Inspired in part by seventeenth=20 century Puritan teachings and the visions of British naval officer Richard = =3D=0D Brothers (1757-1854), who claimed to be a direct descendant of King=20 David, British-Israelism identifies the Northern European, and by=20 extension white American, nations with the lost tribes of Israel. It differ= =3D=0D s=20 from Puritan beliefs in claiming not only a spiritual, but a genealogical=20 identification with the Chosen People of God. This makes Europeans the=20 principal actors of the Bible and thus implies an ambiguous relationship=20 with the Jews, who would be either relatives or masquerading=20 impostors. British-Israelism proper generally resolved this tension by=20 identifying Jews with the House of Judah. This conclusion led British-=20 Israelites to enthusiastically support early Zionism as it would mean a=20 reunification of the two Kingdoms in the Holy Land, which was then a=20 British protectorate.=20 Alarmed by Zionist demands for an independent Jewish state which in=20 effect would ruin the British-Israelite project of world salvation, a laten= =3D=0D t=20 anti - Semitism transpired, voicing doubts as to the Jews' true identity.=20 This negative attitude would be greatly accentuated on American soil,=20 where British-Israelism metamorphosed into Christian Identity. Early=20 proponents of the new gospel in America were M. M. Eshelman,=20 minister in the Church of Brethren and author of The Two Sticks or the=20 Lost Tribes of Israel Discovered (1887), and J. H. Allen, whose Judah's=20 Scepter and Joseph's Birthright (1902) became a bestseller, spreading=20 British-Israelism in Adventist and Bible study groups, and it is still wide= =3D=0D ly=20 read in Identity circles.=20 Though separate congregations were established in the United States,=20 British-Israelism mainly gained ground as a theological tendency among=20 individual ministers and laymen of conventional denominations, who=20 were bound together in loose networks or associations. Its theology=20 was, of course, not all that new in a land incorporating an=20 (analogous) "New Jerusalem" identity as part of a national creed.=20 Mormonism had already taken this notion a step further, claiming a=20 genealogical connection between its adherents and biblical Israel.=20 Struggling with its relationship to the Jewish people, Mormonism, like=20 British-Israelism, in general adopted a philo-Semitic position, although=20 schismatic groups have developed a virulent anti-Semitism on par with=20 Christian Identity.=20 The formative period of Christian Identity could roughly be said to be the = =3D=0D three decades between 1940 and 1970. Through missionaries like=20 Wesley Swift, Bertrand Comparet and William Potter Gale, it took on a=20 white racialist, anti-Semitic, anti-Communist and a far-right conservative = =3D=0D political outlook. Combined with the teachings of early disciples Richard=20 G. Butler, Colonel Jack Mohr and James K. Warner, a distinct racist=20 theology was gradually formed. Whites were said to be the Adamic=20 people, created in His likeness. A notion of a pre-earthly existence is=20 found in an important substratum, teaching that whites either had a=20 spiritual or extraterrestrial pre-existence. Blacks were either preAdamic=20 soulless creatures or represented fallen, evil spirits, but they were not=20 the chief target of fear and hatred. This position was reserved for Jews. = =3D=0D The latent anti-Semitism found in British-Israelism rose to prominence.=20 Jews were, at best, reduced to mongrelized impostors, not infrequently=20 identified with Eurasian Khazars without any legitimate claim to a=20 closeness with God, and at worst denounced as the offspring of Satan.=20 While many Identity Christians interpret this relationship between Jews=20 and Satan as a spiritual bond, many Identity theologians advocate a=20 more literal blood-line linkage. Most renowned is the two-seed theory,=20 according to which Eve not only gave birth to Adam's son Abel, but also=20 to Satan's son, Cain, after having been seduced in a more down-to- earth manner. (2) The subsequent murder of Abel was thus not a=20 fratricide, but the first attempt to exterminate God's children. Whites and= =3D=0D =20 Jews are thus representations of the divine and the diabolical on earth,=20 locked in an eternal combat now approaching its predestined end. This=20 opposition could be accentuated into philosophical dualism, like in the=20 teachings of Robert Miles, who taught that God and Satan represented=20 two primal forces that used earth as a battleground to which they had=20 sent down armies of look-alike races, angelic soldiers of light versus=20 darkness, in their quest for cosmic dominion. An accentuated=20 apocalyptic consciousness pervaded Christian Identity, whose adherents=20 awaited a future more uncertain than most prophecy-believing=20 millenarian mainstream Christians.=20 In general, Christian Identity gave no room for the "rapture," the=20 miraculous physical escape from the impeding world destruction=20 common in fundamentalist Christianity. On the contrary, Identity=20 believers understood their task in terms of the Old Testament, in which=20 God used his people as combat soldiers. There was to be a global war,=20 and true believers had better to be prepared for the coming onslaught in=20 which evil would be exterminated by the army of God, led by "General=20 Jesus." (3) Thus, a militarized white racial religion took hold in the=20 United States.=20 Identifying the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Scandinavic peoples with=20 the lost tribes of Israel strengthened the sacred dimension of the=20 American project. This was the Holy Land, taken by "divine conquest,"=20 as God, as in the Old Testament, mandated His People to "go in and kill=20 every human being and possess the land. (4) White Americans were of=20 Marmaseh, prophesied to become a "great nation," (5) which in effect=20 made the American "nation" racially exclusive by divine command.=20=20 Identity logically held the Articles of Confederation and the original=20 Constitution to be biblical documents. The extent to which Mosaic law=20 would be followed in all its pedantic details varied among Identity=20 congregations, from the strictest observance-including circumcision of=20 male children-to a more conventional Christian understanding, claiming=20 that Aryan Jesus had made the ritual ordinances unnecessary. Many=20 chose Hebrew names for their children and celebrate Sabbath,=20 Passover, and other Jewish holidays.=20 British-Israelism was soon followed by the Theosophical Society with a=20 clear Aryan supremacy theory, that also claimed the US would be the=20 seat of the future, ( 6e Aryan "sub-") race, the Teutonic being the=20 momentarily leading, (5e Aryan "sub-") race.=20 Like the other two groups Theosophy will have high on its banner that=20 Humanity is "one" Brotherhood, as long everybody knows who the "elder=20 brothers" are and where the various "sub =96races" stand. One of the two=20 major spokespersons for the "White Brotherhood" made this clear in=20 the "Mahatma Letters" to Newspaper editor A.P. Sinnet Koot Hoomi in=20 British India: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub= =3D=0D - race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of=20 mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race,=20=20 Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians,=20 Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of=20 the fourth and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, = =3D=0D degraded semblances of humanity." (6)=20 According to this teaching the President of the Theosophial Society A.=20 Besant wrote: "Colonial expansion and territorial conquest as a=20 migration of races for the ultimate enrichment of the Fifth Race. This=20 sweep of time, measured in aeons and evolving land-masses, dissolves=20 the political immediacy of imperialism. The race of Teutons, the fifth sub-= =3D=0D race of the Fifth Race, is now spreading over the world, has occupied=20 greater part of North America, driving before it the old Atlantean stock;=20 it has seized Australia and New Zealand, remnants of still more ancient=20 Lemuria, and the poor relic that dying Race are vanishing before it. High=20 is it rearing its proud head over the countries of the globe, destined to=20 build a world-wide Empire, and to sway the destinies of the civilization." = =3D=0D (7)=20 To recapitulate the evolutionary scheme briefly as presented in=20 theosophy: the first two races are distinguished from the succeeding=20 three in that they are self-born and sexless, their evolution being=20 coterminous with the formation of land masses and oceans. Sexuality,=20 differentiation, and identity commence with the third root-race. The=20 disclaimer that the term root-race has no connection with the ideas=20 associated with ethnic groups or racial strains" is immediately nullified=20 by the very language of classification and hierarchy. (8)=20 Even without further detail, the admission that each race is associated=20 with a particular homeland makes a mockery of the disclaimer.=20 Despite individual differences between theosophists, there is remarkably=20 little divergence in the evolutionary scheme they present. In fact, the=20 impression of a lack of originality evoked by their common discourse=20 works eerily on the reader, who is made to feel that this new mythology=20 is virtually interchangeable with science, so strongly is its content fixed= =3D=0D =20 and closed to interpretation.=20 During the 1925 Jubilee Convention, the Theosophical Society declared=20 as one of its aims the establishment of a World Government (Ransom, A=20 short History of the TS ,1950, p. 23.) and a "World Teacher" was=20 appointed with leading members of the TS publicly announced to be the=20 reincarnation of the twelve apostles. (9)=20 But although Theosophy made claims like all cycles "end with=20 destruction," as did also later Aum Sinrikyio (Tokyo Sarin gas attacks),=20 this is not an (esoteric) Buddhist belief, but rather is inspired by the=20 Apocalypse in the Bible. Many scholars have analyzed the teachings of=20 the TS and came to the conclusion that they are a mythologization of=20 ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe and the "Mahatma=20 Letters" should be seen as a fraud.=20 The different theories explaining the various races on earth in=20 Theosophy have proven able to be combined in multiple variations,=20 without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between forces of=20 good and evil represented on earth in human form.=20 Later Identity ministers, notably Pete Peters, Mark Thomas, Bob=20 Hallstrorn and Michael A. Hoffman II, would continue the path of=20 radicalization. The formative years coincided with the rise of the black=20 civil rights movement and the subsequent transformation of American=20 race relations. Segregation was a painful process for many white=20 racialists, who found themselves in opposition to a federal government=20 that at times did not hesitate to force its will against whites in a racial= =3D=0D =20 conflict. Black Power grew as a dynamic force, and a series of violent=20 race-motivated upheavals struck fear in many American hearts.=20 Affirmative action was viewed as reversed racism, and for the first time=20 many white Americans found a racially motivated system to their=20 disadvantage. (10)=20 Immigration laws that had restricted the bulk of new Americans to racial=20 kin were altered to pave the way for a huge influx of Latin American and=20 Asian migrants. Were white Americans to become a minority in their=20 own country? The defeat in Vietnam added to the confusion. For the first=20 time in American history, a war did not end in a victory. Unable to=20 explain how the largest military power in the world could be so=20 embarrassingly beaten to -the ground by a small nation, the betrayed-by- their-leaders theory took hold as a viable explanation and was recycled=20 in an endless stream of movie productions. (11)=20 All these traumatic social tribulations contributed to the mental universe = =3D=0D of the second generation Identity adherents. During the 1970s and=20 1980s, the far right went through a process of increasing radicalization.=20 Where the earlier generation had been mainly conservative and=20 reactionary, revolutionary sentiments now proliferated as the federal=20 government gradually emerged as the enemy of the white race. During=20 this time, Christian Identity became widely diffused in National Socialist = =3D=0D and right wing extremist circles as a religious rationale for racialist=20 thought. Most of the more prominent leaders were either Christian=20 Identity ministers or passed through Christian Identity. Identity become a = =3D=0D unifying element in the otherwise fragmented and in-fighting American=20 radical right. Through ministries managing to stay slightly above the=20 complex intrigues, yearly gatherings during the 1980s were held at=20 Miles' Mountain Church in Flint, Michigan, and Pastor Butler organized=20 Aryan world congresses at his Church of Jesus Christ, Christian at=20 Hayden Lake, Idaho. The latter headquarters, Aryan Nations, also=20 became a symbol for a separatist tendency that called for whites to=20 establish a secessionist state, mostly, though not exclusively, placed in=20 the northwestern United States.=20 Christian Identity also pervaded other significant movements of these=20 decades, notably the radical localist Posse Comitatus, which refused to=20 accept any federal authority as constitutionally legitimate. The military=20 impetus gave rise to armed compounds of Christian congregations at=20 which were held survivalist training for Armageddon.=20 Militarism was also a distinct feature of the second category of white=20 religious nationalism that rose in the 1970s and 1980s. Not all white=20 racialists were content with the Jewish identity claimed for Aryans.=20=20 Christianity was held to be both alien and superstitious, negating=20 the "law of nature" as well as logical reasoning. Ukrainian-born Ben=20 Klassen founded the Church of the Creator (COTC) in 1973 in an effort=20 to develop a creed based on the concept "race as religion." Creativity=20 sharply ridiculed Identity doctrine, questioning why any sane white man=20 would "break [his] neck to distort history" only to pose as "a descendant=20 to such trash" as the ancient Hebrews.=20 Klassen states that there is no historical evidence that the Ten Tribes of = =3D=0D Israel ever existed and got lost, and if they did-good riddance! (12)=20 With at times brilliant sarcasm and irony, Klassen confronts all "spook=20 believing" creeds with the iconoclastic fervor of a nineteenth-century=20 atheist.=20 Christianity was described as a destructive force, created in an effort to = =3D=0D reduce the warrior spirit in the nature of the white man. In Nature's=20 Eternal Religion (1973), The While Man's Bible (1981) and RaHoWa:=20 This Planet Is All Ours (1987), a kind of religious dimension was added=20 to a -namely secular socio-Darwinism. Based on "nature's law," a vision=20 is outlined of the white man as a realized Nietzschean superman.=20 These anti-Christian teachings resulted in a falling out between COTC=20 and Identity leaders and distanced Klassen from much of the Klan.=20 Strongly opposed to the federal government, described as composed of=20 race traitors in the pocket of conspiring Jews, the COTC organized the=20 White Brigades at its to North Carolina, headquarters. Followers were=20 invited for a couple of weeks at a time, learning "survival skills, martial= =3D=0D =20 arts and how to use [military] weapons." (13)=20 Crativity split following its leader's suicide, but an attempt at reviving = =3D=0D the=20 COTC led by Pontifex Maximus Matt Hale came in 1996 from its 7ew=20 headquarters in Illinois. (14)=20 The 1990s is characterized by a further radicalization of white racialism. = =3D=0D The removal of the Soviet bloc as a distracting enemy allowed a clearer=20 focus on the United States' government as the force of evil. President=20 George Bush's talk of a New World Order was interpreted as confirming=20 the white racialists fears of a conspiracy to establish a one-world=20 government.=20 Irrespective of whether this was interpreted in Identity terms as the=20 prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, or understood in more secular=20 terms, the conclusion that white Americans were to be subjugated was=20 clear. Federal violence, symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and=20 the burning flames of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds=20 about what should be expected. (16)=20 The paramilitary culture merged with mistrust of the government to give=20 birth to the militia movement. Soon, different militias of various sizes=20 and durations mushroomed in the United States, preparing to defend the=20 remnants of American liberties. Though far from all of them harbor=20 explicit white racialist world-views, many of them, like, for example, the = =3D=0D Oklahoma White Militia, do. Mistrusting media, government agencies=20 and other channels of public information, conspiracy theories=20 experienced new heights, informing concerned citizens about various=20 schemes ranging from secret federal concentration camps in which=20 freedom lovers would be rounded up, to a satanic cabal involving=20 presidents, international bankers, and congressmen, who met in secret=20 for cannibalistic and necrophilic rites. (17)=20 It seemed as if America as a white nation had irrevocably lost federal=20 recognition. Whites appeared to be "the only people on the face of the=20 earth that have no national state." (18)=20 The separatist imperative was voiced by the Aryan Nations in their=20 Declaration of Independence, which was "unanimously adopted" on=20 March 12, 1996. "The United States and its `New World Order' has as=20 one of its foremost purposes, the eradication of the white race and its=20 culture." Its object is to establish "absolute [global] tyranny." "Appealin= =3D=0D g=20 to the supreme God of our folk" the representatives of the Aryan people=20 therefore "declare that the Aryan people of America, are and of rights=20 ought to be, a free and independent nation." (19)=20 In the 1990s another white nationalist religious impetus came into the=20 limelight: Odinism. With roots in the occult and/or pagan tendency of=20 German National Socialism, early American Odinist writers like Else=20 Christensen and the New Age-inspired pagan revival of the 1970s and=20 1980s, Odinism made its breakthrough among America's white=20 racialists. It attracted Christian Identity believers "who flirted with=20 Identity because it was simply the only racial theology out there," (20)=20 as well as anti-Christian Creativity adherents who felt the slogan "our=20 race is our religion" did not carry far enough. "There must be something=20 more to it." (21)=20 Odinism, or Wotanism, is a concept used to denote a racially exclusive=20 understanding of pre-Christian Norse religion, or Asatifi. Asatru is a=20 polytheist tribal religion, more akin to Native American traditions than to= =3D=0D =20 monotheistic Christianity. Whereas the omnipotent and omniscient God=20 of Christianity is of a nature fundamentally different from His creation,=20 no such unbridgeable gulf separates the realm of the Gods and=20 Goddesses in Asatru from this world.=20 Asatru is a self-experienced spiritual path whereby man can reconnect=20 with the divine within and with the animated universe in this world and=20 beyond. (22) Through ritualization it is thought possible to connect with=20 the spirits of the land, the ancestors and the guardian forces of nature.=20 Leaders of the rites, the male gothi and female gythia, are not priests in = =3D=0D the Christian sense and are invested with authority by the kindred=20 (congregation) only if they prove themselves worthy in terms of=20 knowledge and spiritual growth. Rather than being obeyed and/or=20 prayed to, the Gods and Goddesses are invoked and invited as=20 participants in the communal rituals, blots, that follow the yearly cycle o= =3D=0D f=20 nature.=20 Many travelers on the Nordic Path in addition practice meditation, runic=20 yoga or rune divination techniques. The polytheist perception of divinity=20 is reflected in the Asatru belief in multiple souls and multiple destinies.= =3D=0D =20 Though many variations exist here, generally it is said that one soul=20 goes to the abode of the dead while another soul departs to the abode=20 of the yet unborn to await his next reincarnation or recurrence. Many=20 Asatruers believe that this follows family lines, and here we touch on an=20 aspect that opens up to racial speculation. Although "race" is a late=20 concept in the history of mankind and was unknown to the ancient pre- Christian Scandinavian cultures, its modem practitioners can hardly=20 avoid its present-day reality.=20 The Asatru revival has much to do with a search for roots and identity,=20 in a similar manner in which many black Americans search for their=20 African roots or Native Americans want to honor their traditions. This=20 may or may not merge with racist ideas, and it should be emphasized=20 that modem Asatru encompasses a broad spectrum of adherents, and=20 far from all of them are inclined toward racialist ideologies. In its=20 position on race, it ranges in a continuum from the radical racialist pole = =3D=0D of Odinism to the anti-racist pole of many kindreds organized in the Ring=20 of Troth network.=20 In the middle are found two of the larger networks, the Asatru Folk=20 Assembly and the Asatru Alliance, whose spokespersons try to distance=20 themselves from either pole. Mike Murray of the Asatru Alliance=20 describes it as the ethnic religion of Northern European peoples, (23)=20 and Stephen McNallen of the Asatru Folk Assembly advances the=20 concept of meta genetics as an avenue for embracing an ancestral faith=20 without falling into the trap of negative racism. An analysis of the=20 Asatru pagan revival in contemporary United States falls outside the=20 scope of this study. (24)=20 Representing more than a hundred congregations, or "kindreds,"=20 operating in the United States and abroad, the racialist Odinist tendency=20 is propa-ated by groups and federations such as the Odinist Fellowship,=20 Wotan's Folk and Rook. Dissatisfied with the multiracial reworking of the=20 American "nation," Odinism aims at "reaching deep into the ancestral=20 past" to reconnect with the "roots of our race" in order to redevelop a=20 lost "folk consciousness. (25)=20 Asserting that each race has a genetic pool of spiritual identity, Odinism = =3D=0D believes that "all Aryans today retain an element of Wotan=20 consciousness," a revival of which would liberate the white man.=20 The Bruder Schweigen is a small closely united group of underground=20 activists, known as the Order.=20 Led by Robert Mathews, the Order initiated in the early 1980s an armed=20 struggle for the liberation of the Aryan race. Following a series of an- nored car robberies and the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg, a liberal=20 Jewish talk radio host in Denver, a dramatic man hunt took place which=20 culminated in Mathews' death and the subsequent capture of the=20 militants. David Lane was sentenced to 190 years, but says that he does=20 not regret anything: "I was only doing my duty and obeyed the will of=20 the higher powers, just as I do now in the greater plan the Gods seem=20 to have for me." During the years that have passed, the Order has=20 grown in significance and David Lane is not infrequently referred to as=20 the Mandela of the white revolution.=20 =20=20 We now turn to a discussion of this interaction in P.4 Oct. 31, 2002.=20 =20=20 1) The Nation of Islam, with an estimated 20,000 members The best=20 introduction of Christian Identity is found in Michael Barkun, Religion and= =3D=0D =20 the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement (Chapel=20 Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1997).=20 2) The different theories explaining the various races on earth are not=20 necessarily exclusive but have proven able to be combined in multiple=20 variations, without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between=20 forces of good and evil represented on earth in human form.=20 3) See, for example, "There Is No Pacifism in the Bible,"=20 Correspondence Bible Course, The American Institute of Theology (used=20 by Butler's Aryan Nations), 199A chapter 86.=20 3) Definition given by Identity believer John Baumgardner, Macintosh,=20 Florida, Nov. 1, 1996.=20 4) Although, as we know, representatives of other tribes also moved=20 here. Britain was Ephraim, in Genesis 35:11 prophesied to become=20 a "company of nations," and Mannaseh was to be a "great nation," i.e.,=20 the United States. "Saxons" were "Isaac's son ... .. Dan" become Dan- mark (Denmark), and so on.=20 5) The practical impact of affirmative action has been marginal=20 compared to the centrality it has in the white racialist world-view where=20 it is used as a symbol for the alleged antiwhite government policies.=20 6) For an illuminating discussion of the new warrior ideal in American=20 male culture, see James William Gibson, Warrior Dreams: Violence and=20 Manhood in Post-Vietnam America (New York: Hill and Wang, 1994).=20 7) The Mahatma letters to A.P. Sinnet have their own internet search=20 engine at:=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/psearch.htm=20 8) Annie Besant, The Pedigree of Man (Benares and London:=20 Theosophical Publishing Society, 1904), pp. 150-51.=20 9) Geoffrey Barborka, The Story of Human Evolution (Madras:=20 Theosophical Publishing House, 1979), p. 18.=20 10) Catherine Lowman Wessinger's "Annie Besant and Progressive=20 Messianism" See also:=20=20=20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/creation.html=20 11) The practical impact of affirmative action has been marginal=20 compared to the centrality it has in the white racialist world-view where=20 it is used as a symbol for the alleged anti white government policies.=20 12) For an illuminating discussion of the new warrior ideal in American=20 male culture, see James William Gibson, Warrior Dreams: Violence and=20 Manhood in Post-Vietnam America (New York: Hill and Wang, 1994).=20 13) Ben Klassen, RaHoWa: This Planet Is All Ours (Otto, NC: Church of=20 the Creator, : 987), 124ff.=20 14) Interview with Ron McVan, former White Brigade commander, St.=20 Maries, Idaho, September 25, 1996.=20 15) Matt Hale, "It's Decided!" The Struggle: Dedicated to the Survival,=20 Expansion and .Advancement of the White Race, XI, (May 1996).=20 16) During an eleven-day siege of white separatist Randy Weaver's=20 remote Idaho cabin, under the pretext of his arrest for a minor firearms=20 violation, federal agents first killed his teenage son and then shot his=20 wife to death when she went out with their baby in her 3nns. In Waco,=20 Texas, a 51-day federal siege of the Branch Davidian communal=20 settlemerit ended in disaster on April 19, 1993, with nearly 80 sect=20 members consumed in flames.=20 17) Conversation with conspiracy believer Eva Vail, Coeur d'Alene,=20 September 26, 1996, information gathered at a militia conference,=20 Denver, Colorado, November 8-10, 1996.=20 18) "Platform for an Aryan State," Aryan Nations.=20 19) "The Declaration of Independence," revised edition, March 12, 1996.=20 20) Interview with Katja Lane, St. Maries, Idaho, May 6, 1997.=20 21) Interview with Ron McVan, St. Maries, Idaho, September 25, 1996.=20 22) Theosophic Society leaders believed, in gathering up the various=20 (hierarchical) angels and rituals as a means to speed up evolutionary=20 processes. See: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/futurer.html=20 23) Interview with Mike Murray, Payson, Arizona, April 28, 1997.=20 24) Interview with Stephen McNallen, Grass Valley, California, December=20 18, 1996.=20 25) In an interview in Austin Texas, April 17, 1997, Mike Murray thought=20 that Asatru was composed of some 40-50 per cent racialist oriented=20 followers. See also Jeffrey Kaplan, "Radical Religion in America" 1997.=20 26) Interview with Ron McVan of Wotansfolk, St.Maries, Idaho,=20 September 25, 1996.=20 27) Interview with David Lane. November 12, 1996. Maximum Security=20 Prison, Florence, Colorado.=20 M. Sufilight=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:49 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. >=20 >=20 > > Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends=20 on if > > you want to believe it or not. > > > > Steve: Kargyu lineage > > > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu=20 lineage > > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical > > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves > > the white conquerors. The majority of mankind > > belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the=20 above > > mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, > > Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of=20 other > > sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third=20 race. All > > these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? > > > > > Brian > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > > wrote: > > > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the=20 burden to > > > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > > > > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post= =3D=0D > > > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the=20 mahatma > > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > > > I > > > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > > > letters, such > > > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other=20 then by > > > > either HPB or Damodar. > > > > > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a=20 mystery. > > > > > > > Even Paul Johnson > > > > > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of=20 anything. > > > > > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > > > right mind > > > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > > > highest > > > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -= =3D=0D - > > > yourselves > > > > the white conquerors. > > > > > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed=20 to > > > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and=20 migration > > > theory. > > > > > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > > > whoever > > > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > > > not even > > > > Indian. > > > > > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has=20 nothing > > > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with=20 red > > > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > > > > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood."=20=20 That > > > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > > > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a > > moment > > > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > > > things. > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 09:00:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 15196 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 17:00:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 17:00:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6831 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte has quoted several times this extract from the Mahatma Letters: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) Some observations are as follows: (1) It is good to know that Brian/Brigitte can actually use quotation marks! In the past on numerous occasions, Brian/Brigitte has copied material from other writers without adding quotation marks to the appropriated material and without acknowledging the person who wrote the material. At least in this instance Mahatma K.H. is given credit .....! (2) But it is somewhat strange to me that B/B does NOT cite the exact source for this quotation. B/B says it can be found on the Internet. At the very least a note could have been added: Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm (3) Now COMPARE AND CONTRAST what was quoted by B/B with the following more complete quote from the above URL: "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub- race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as Popalvul and a few others unknown to Science." Certainly this extract gives a better context than the material that B/B decided to quote. . . . Actually one should carefully read and study more of this letter than what I am even quoting now in order to understand the Mahatma's ideas. (4) Is Brian/Brigitte quoting this extract to show us that the Mahatma is a racist? ". . . all these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity. . . . " Is this phrase a racist statement? Or what about this statement: ". . . the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub- race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." Does this mean that "white" people constitute the "superior" race and that all other people of the earth are their "inferiors" --- "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity"? If this is B/B's contention then I must say that such a superficial "interpretation" ignores the whole teaching concerning the evolution of all races THROUGH cycles of time, etc. that is found in THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and in other writings of Blavatsky. (5) Brian/Brigitte, tell us what is YOUR UNDERSTANDING of what will happen ACCORDING TO THE MAHATMAS AND BLAVATSKY through time to "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors'? It is said more than once in the above titles that ALL "races" are born, grow to maturity and then decline, degenerate and face death. "The human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old, and die. Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule." The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2, Page 443-444 My understanding is that through the coming cycles of time "the last sub-race of the fifth" will ALSO become "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity". For instance, read the SD, Vol. 2, pp. 444-445. "Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race," pro tem., before becoming a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races. They are, in short, the germs of the Sixth sub-race, and in some few hundred years more, will become most decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics. After this, in about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms -- the first series of those which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race (and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly connected with the confines of our continent and isles -- the Sixth Root-Race will have appeared on the stage of our Round. . . . it [Sixth Root-Race] will silently come into existence; so silently, indeed, that for long millenniums shall its pioneers -- the peculiar children who will grow into peculiar men and women -- be regarded as anomalous lusus naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally. Then, as they increase, and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they will awake to find themselves in a majority. It is the present men who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, degenerate, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying. All these are the remnants of once mighty races, the recollection of whose existence has entirely died out of the remembrance of the modern generations, just as we shall vanish from the memory of the Sixth Race Humanity. The Fifth will overlap the Sixth Race for many hundreds of millenniums, changing with it slower than its new successor, still changing in stature, general physique, and mentality, just as the Fourth overlapped our Aryan race, and the Third had overlapped the Atlanteans." Please Brian/Brigitte . . . RE-READ and study and ponder on the meaning of the following sentence: "It is the PRESENT MEN [including "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors"?] who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, DEGENERATE, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying." caps added. Much more could be said on just this one aspect of the subject. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 10:35:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 35323 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 18:35:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:35:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6423 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY . . . . Brian/Brigitte quotes an anonymous correspondent who writes about those "Theosophists" who are "racists." I quote only a portion of the text: ---------------------------------------------- "HER [Blavatsky's] RACE THEORY IS THE THREAD TYING ALL OF THESE ELITISTS TOGETHER. RACISTS IN INDIA, PERSIA, SRI LANKA, THE MIDDLE EAST (THROUGH MAYAVADI SUFISM), EGYPT (MORE MAYAVADA SUFISM), JAPAN, EUROPE, RUSSIA AND THE AMERICAS...ALL AROUND THE WORLD, 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS ( AND THEIR 'HIGHER'-RACES CO-CONSPIRATORS) NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY. EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM, BUT WHAT IS THE RESULT OF THEIR INFLUENCE ? "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM". I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS IN JAPAN, SRI LANKA, INDIA AND NEPAL, IMPERSONALISM, ANTI SEMITISM , AND CONSIDERING 'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS WAS COMMON TO ALL OF THEM. *** SECRET DOCTRINE INDEX SD INDEX Sinhalese heirs to giants of Lanka II 407-8 regard Veddhas as animals II 286-7 VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." ----------------------------------------------------- End of the quote. My observations are as follows: (1) In the above quote, a good number of assertions are piled one upon each other but without any valid evidence given to prove these assertions other than: "I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS. . . . " (2) FORTUNATELY, I have never met a "Theosophist" with such beliefs as those described above!!! (3) The anonymous writer asserts: "EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM. . . . " If that is so, then how did the anonynmous writer gain the knowledge that they were racists? Did they only confide in him? Did they come right out and tell him that they believed "'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS" and that they were also ANTI SEMITIC? (4) Furthermore, why is the reader referred to the SD index for the info that "Sinhalese . . . regard Veddhas as animals"? Notice that this is followed by the commentary: "VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." Were these Sinhalese actually "Theosophists"? Or were the Sinhalese influenced by all those racist Theosophists? In other words, what are we suppose to conclude from this tidbit of info given by the anonymous writer? Is the anonymous writer wanting us to conclude that Madame Blavatsky also believed that the Veddhas were "animals"? Actually, I'm very glad that the anonymous writer brought up the text of SD II, pp. 286-7. I quote a part of the text. H.P. Blavatsky writes: ". . . even in our own day, while the Singhalese regard the Veddhas of their jungles as speaking animals and no more, some British people believe firmly, in their arrogance, that every other human family -- especially the dark Indians -- is an inferior race. Moreover there are naturalists who have sincerely considered the problem whether some savage tribes -- like the Bushmen for instance -- can be regarded as men at all. . . . " Let me pull out one statement and focus on that: ". . . some British people believe firmly, IN THEIR ARROGANCE, that every other human family -- especially the DARK Indians -- is an INFERIOR race." caps added. Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other British colonies]? In a Dec. 1880 letter to Sinnett, K.H. brings up this same subject in some detail: "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say to him of the English in general. They are haughty. To us especially, so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must not confound your own private views -- especially those you have now -- with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and cashmere roses." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm Also notice what the Chohan communicated to Sinnett and Hume: ". . . the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the poor despised 'nigger' brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . ." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm Does Brian/Brigitte and the anonymous writer want us to believe that Blavatsky, KH and the Chohan were also "'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS" with as much ARROGANCE as the British? Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 10:44:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 42611 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A2E2F263D1A for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:44:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: The Racist "Mahatma Letter"... Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:39:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all of you, The letter frequently referred to by Brian (not to confuse with "Brain"...>= :-) a friendly joke ...) seems to be found at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm It dates the year 1882. I have one important question to Caldwell and others. Do you know what the = exact year was when this letter first was made public - for real ? I claim this (i.e. not being 100% certain using the ESP): This letter is NOT a Mahatma Letter in its original form, i.e. the form it = was presented to A. P. Sinnett. Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter - and a someone= has even released it to official view. (I.e. time as such has sort of changed the letters content of information.) A view we experience today on the Internet via the above link. Prove me wrong if you can ! Let us remember, that the Dugpas(i.e. Fake spiritualists) also can play wit= h the magic fire. Bacause the letter has been made official in the version it has with its - = "careless" - remarks on races and sub-races, and because of later historica= l events - especially Hitlers Swastika and his and his friends deeds of evi= l - and their racist MASTERACE ("=DCbermensch") theories,=20 and because of the present Thesophical groups use of the Swastika,=20 and because of a greater groups of theosophists being the followers of eith= er C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his book - "Man = Whence how and Whither" - (not to mention A. Besants involvment). OR certain Alice A. Bailey groups ("westernized aryan anti-global-view ") i= nterpretation of the wisdom-tachings --- then --- true Theosophy - and the Ancient Wisdom Teachings of all ages have a proble= m today defending such a letter without being called racists or the like. My knowledge about the masters make me seek to defend them here. A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen these - raci= st - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured - either - that t= he letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings would have ar(a)isen= (I think Caldwell is right here RE-read the whole letter - using a spiritu= al sense of mind. But when read dead-letter - you get trouble.) - or the Ma= ster would have known that the letter would be made into a forgery - and th= en rested in peace ! Or... My view is, this: The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this let= ter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow this = to happen. The whole idea about the Mahatma letters was this :=20 The students of Theosophy should not believe - blindly - everything - every= one says about the Mahatmas and what is said, that They write in letters an= d What they do and What they say !!! And that is the truth and nothing but the truth so God - ParaBrahman help y= ou all. Ponder on this: Has any magician ever changed ANY of the Mahatma letters af= ter they was read the first time ? Has any Master changed one of them later= on in time and space ? Did he/she (or "it" or they) change the paper or th= e ink ? Do we then REALLY know if they are REAL ? My view is NO, not unlees we are recognized Chelas ! And please do use the '7 keys' which Blavatsky refers to, - if you can - wh= ile reading my letter(s). All this talk about races. And Martin Luther King Jr. who wanted us all to transcend our race, tribe, = spiritual -and national narrowmindedness. When will this happen ? (PS.: Thanks to Master Morya for standing by my side...well I guess..>:-)) = No spiritual 'Panama' channels here or perfumes - but just a joke.) Take care ! This email could be a (spiritual) decoy... Feel free to do your very best. from M. Sufilight with patience...=20 and a brand new Mahatma Letter year 2002, date 1st november, hour GMT18:39.= .. and laughs... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Nov 01 11:41:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 68775 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from mkr1.gbronline.com [209.12.90.116] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8832E0401E2; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:39:47 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021101134225.00a27930@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:44:24 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 06:35 PM 11/1/02 +0000, you wrote: >Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the >Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. >Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other >British colonies]? In this century, Aliester Crowley reported to have called Jiddu Krishnamurti as "nigger". Nothing surprising about the British attitude towards dark skinned people. mkr ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 11:58:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 19:58:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 27852 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 19:58:14 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:58:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: ". . . Theosophy suggest[s] that a black skin is a curse . . . . " ??? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1105 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell It is quite interesting to read the following article just posted today [Nov. 1] on Brian/Brigitte's website: "Debate: Black and White, plus Australian Aborigines" http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austrab.html Unfortunately, it is an article which has far too many misleading and false statements. I guess some people are quite talented at doing things like this!! :) Here is a wonderful statement by the editor (I assume this is Brian/Brigitte writing from Vienna): "That both Mormonism and Theosophy suggest that a black skin is a curse for having sinned in the pre-existence (never mind Theosophists call it "karma") is an interesting corollary which requires further research." Leaving Mormonism aside, where is the text in Blavatsky's writings or in the Mahatma Letters that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that "a black skin is a curse for having sinned in the pre- existence (never mind Theosophists call it 'karma')"? I can't wait for Brian/Brigitte to give us the proper citations to the texts! :) I know I shouldn't hold my breath in the meantime. Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 12:38:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 1370 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 20:38:11 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA14A482851 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:38:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000601c281e5$ebe14c60$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:33:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Yes let us see if Brian would dare answer on that ! >:-) from M. Sufilight with great hopes and expectations...well maybe... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:35 PM Subject: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . > SUBJECT: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL > BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY . . . . > > Brian/Brigitte quotes an anonymous correspondent who writes about > those "Theosophists" who are "racists." I quote only a portion of > the text: > > ---------------------------------------------- > > "HER [Blavatsky's] RACE THEORY IS THE THREAD TYING ALL OF THESE > ELITISTS TOGETHER. RACISTS IN INDIA, PERSIA, SRI LANKA, THE > MIDDLE EAST (THROUGH MAYAVADI SUFISM), EGYPT (MORE > MAYAVADA SUFISM), JAPAN, EUROPE, RUSSIA AND THE > AMERICAS...ALL AROUND THE WORLD, 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS ( > AND THEIR 'HIGHER'-RACES CO-CONSPIRATORS) NETWORKED UNDER > THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY. > EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM, BUT WHAT IS THE RESULT OF > THEIR INFLUENCE ? "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM". I > PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS IN JAPAN, SRI LANKA, INDIA AND > NEPAL, IMPERSONALISM, ANTI SEMITISM , AND > CONSIDERING 'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS WAS COMMON TO ALL OF > THEM. > *** > SECRET DOCTRINE INDEX > SD INDEX Sinhalese > heirs to giants of Lanka II 407-8 > regard Veddhas as animals II 286-7 > > VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." > ----------------------------------------------------- > > End of the quote. > > > My observations are as follows: > > (1) In the above quote, a good number of assertions are piled one > upon each other but without any valid evidence given to prove these > assertions other than: "I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS. . . . " > > (2) FORTUNATELY, I have never met a "Theosophist" with such beliefs > as those described above!!! > > (3) The anonymous writer asserts: "EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED > RACISM. . . . " > > If that is so, then how did the anonynmous writer gain the knowledge > that they were racists? Did they only confide in him? Did they come > right out and tell him that they believed "'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS" > and that they were also ANTI SEMITIC? > > (4) Furthermore, why is the reader referred to the SD index for the > info that "Sinhalese . . . regard Veddhas as animals"? > > Notice that this is followed by the commentary: > > "VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." > > Were these Sinhalese actually "Theosophists"? Or were the Sinhalese > influenced by all those racist Theosophists? > > In other words, what are we suppose to conclude from this tidbit of > info given by the anonymous writer? > > Is the anonymous writer wanting us to conclude that Madame Blavatsky > also believed that the Veddhas were "animals"? > > Actually, I'm very glad that the anonymous writer brought up the text > of SD II, pp. 286-7. > > I quote a part of the text. H.P. Blavatsky writes: > > ". . . even in our own day, while the Singhalese regard the Veddhas > of their jungles as speaking animals and no more, some British people > believe firmly, in their arrogance, that every other human family -- > especially the dark Indians -- is an inferior race. Moreover there > are naturalists who have sincerely considered the problem whether > some savage tribes -- like the Bushmen for instance -- can be > regarded as men at all. . . . " > > Let me pull out one statement and focus on that: > > ". . . some British people believe firmly, IN THEIR ARROGANCE, that > every other human family -- especially the DARK Indians -- is an > INFERIOR race." caps added. > > Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the > Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. > Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other > British colonies]? > > In a Dec. 1880 letter to Sinnett, K.H. brings up this same subject in > some detail: > > "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say > to him of the English in general. They are haughty. To us especially, > so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must not > confound your own private views -- especially those you have now -- > with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course > with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations > makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent > to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern > Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of > race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as > an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark > about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner > but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would > a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded > in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same > trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on > the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- > 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you > could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the > fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- > Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally > coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers > instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most > certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not > tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or > physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to > invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry > in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and > cashmere roses." Quoted from: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm > > Also notice what the Chohan communicated to Sinnett and Hume: > > ". . . the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the > foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the > proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent > intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of > society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to > stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the > poor despised 'nigger' brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. > He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . ." Quoted > from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm > > Does Brian/Brigitte and the anonymous writer want us to believe that > Blavatsky, KH and the Chohan were also "'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS" > with as much ARROGANCE as the British? > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 01 12:55:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 20:55:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 28894 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.7b.1382a0b (3964) for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:55:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7b.1382a0b.2af4444b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:55:39 EST Subject: Consciousness and Cosmogenesis To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I would like to offer a recent dialogue with a scientist on the Cognition a= nd=20 Consciousness Journal's Mind/Brain online forum, that seems to be pertinent= =20 to the study of universal and individual consciousness from a theosophical= =20 point of view. Perhaps, it may also awaken some new insights with respect = to=20 the second fundamental principle and the laws of karma, cycles and=20 periodicity, as well as offering some scientifically consistent answers to= =20 the problem of understanding the involutional basis of Cosmogenesis and the= =20 interrelationship of unchanging consciousness or awareness and changeable=20 matter or form.=20 Incidentally, while not yet entirely accepted by mainstream science, the=20 unified field theories of Superstring/M-branes, with it's 3 physical and 7= =20 enfolded hyperspace dimensions, is not too far away from these scientifical= ly=20 rooted theosophical views -- although it has not yet considered anything mo= re=20 than the phenomenal aspects of universal energy fields. (For a clear=20 layman's view of the scope of this new scientific paradigm, go to=20 superstringtheory.com ) I hope this proves interesting in light of HPB's prediction that science wi= ll=20 soon be faced with irrefutable answers to their most profound questions tha= t=20 may bring it closer into agreement with the fundamental principles of=20 theosophy and its metaphysical conclusions.=20=20 LHM In a message dated 10/12/02 10:39:51 AM, stonjek@ozemail.com.au writes: >Leon: >As an added question... Since you insist on downgrading both Alex's and my >theories (which could be integrated, since my theory agrees with his/her >theory of "geometric mental space") -- what logical and scientifically >consistent theory do you have that better explains the fundamental origin, >nature, genealogy, ontology and epistemology of thought, qualia, awareness >and will? Or, IOW, what holds together the brother-sister act of >consciousness and matter? > >RKS: >The assumption seems to be that the sensorial world is broken down and >then put back together again, just as it is. In other words, the world is >reconstructed on a spatial template. That's closer to but not exactly my assumption. We can't deny that the 3-D= =20 world we see in our mind's eye, is the near perfect image of the 3-D world= =20 that exists in our surrounding space. Therefore, we can say that the=20 objective world is broken down into pixels by the rods and cones in the=20 retinas that are directly related to corresponding "coherent" point source= =20 rays of light reflected from the objects of perception. (This laser like=20 characteristic of each such image point is certainly a reasonable enough=20 basis for a holographic field theory of consciousness.) Therefore, I can proceed to hypothesize that from that initial transformati= on=20 of image information onward through the neural system, these pixels are=20 further transformed into analogues electrical wave forms by the brain's=20 electrochemical neurological network that, when images in left and right=20 brain from either left or right eye (or both) are combined, create=20 holographic interference patterns in the dual brain's combined em field. Th= is=20 field is then transferred holistically (by a form of inductive resonance) t= o=20 the higher frequency order mind/memory fields in Kaluza-Klien hyperspace.=20 The image patterns from both left and right brain are then reconstructed in= to=20 a continuous holographic 3-D image by the single zero-point at the center o= f=20 these "consciousness" fields that are coadunate and "entangled" with all th= e=20 zero-point centers of the higher order field of each rod and cone, as well = as=20 with the corresponding zero-point sources of reflected light from the objec= t=20 world. The result is a complete 3-dimensional image in our mental space th= at=20 has apparently infinite depth outward in front of our eyes, and appears to = be=20 as if viewed from a single (zero dimensional) focal point between and behin= d=20 the eyes. (Naturally, the lower order mass/energy fields would appear to b= e=20 completely transparent to the higher order mind/memory fields.)=20=20 >If this is so, then one would expect spatial extension to be primal. That >is, the first thing and the last thing, with all the objects that can exis= t >in that space added to the template as they are perceived. Spatial extension is primal -- since space is nothing more than a series of= =20 nested triune transcendental hyperspace and metric space fields of descendi= ng=20 frequency orders or phases that are spherically extended out to an apparenn= t=20=20 multidimensional infinity from a single zero-point singularity -- with each= =20 field linked to each other through their coadunate zero-point centers. The= =20 templates are carried by the modulations of the energy frequencies on the=20 surfaces of the enfolded field phases. >I've pointed out that all the physical evidence seems to point to no prima= l >geometry. It doesn't seem to feature in the way the vision is processed. >Optical illusions seem to indicate that we are easily fooled by geometric >illusions. This all points to a visual geometry that is added on to some >other kind of perceptual substrate or scaffold. What physical evidence? How can we physically measure the dimensions of the= =20 inner holostic field we perceive? How do you think the holographic image o= ut=20 there that we see is processed in here? What scientific proof is there tha= t=20 vision -- as we experience it in holographic 3-dimensionality that closely,= =20 if not exactly matches the objective outer world we can measure -- is=20 processed in any other way than as I hypothesize?=20=20 This reference to illusions is also an inappropriate example, since most=20 optical illusions are based on 2-D graphical images that have no relationsh= ip=20 to the real world 3-D holographic image that we actually "see" in our=20 mental/memory space. It's the 2-D image analogs and their twisted geometry= 's=20 that cause such illusions, since the mind/memory forces the perceptive=20 awareness (our-selves) to compare apples to oranges, so to speak, and make= =20 best fit decisions. Since most graphical illusions also contain more than o= ne=20 fit, the consciousness can only oscillate between them. Some illusions als= o=20 have to do with the fatigue levels of the rods and cones, due to short term= =20 chemical changes and reversible reactions throughout the neural system. = =20 Also, much of the relationships of geometry, such as perspectives, have to = be=20 learned, such as interpreting leaning buildings when we look up at them as= =20 being perfectly vertical. Many illusions use these learned anomalies to=20 trick us into interpreting straight lines as curved, parallel lines as=20 converging, etc. In any event, none of this negates the idea of an=20 interconnected spherical field geometry being fundamental -- no matter in=20 what phase of Cosmogenetic field involution they occur. How we interpret th= e=20 actual geometry of our visual field through our mind/memory/awareness syste= m=20 is quite another thing that depends much on our experience, learning abilit= y=20 and intelligence. >Others have argued passionately and convincingly that a language, even >a language such as the language spoken, forms the scaffold onto which all >else is added (or, that all perception is interpreted as or translated int= o >a language). The two opposite poles of consciousness (subjectivity) and its corollary,=20 matter (objectivity) came into existence at the moment the first energy fie= ld=20 of the universe emanated out of the "spinergy" of the primal zero-point=20 singularity. Language only appears at the last stages of evolution of=20 biological forms -- that were all conscious starting from their single cell= ed=20 beginning during the final physical phase of Cosmogenesis (that had to=20 involve in multiple phases or hyperspace dimensions from the first near=20 infinite frequency/energy, to the finite frequenci/energies of the last=20 physical phase). All this involution had occur prior to the evolution of t= he=20 matter/energy that we observe in our space-time continuum. >Others argue for the breakdown of the perceptual world into its symbolic >or relational components eg "point-field" or "focus-peripheral". Makes no sense. Those are just words without any apparent scientific or=20 logical causation behind such relationships.=20=20 >How does our clear cut geometry resolve the actual visual field that is >furry around the edges?? How does it resolve the extra sensitivity that w= e >have to transient peripheral events?? Clearly our actual perceptual field >begins with light/dark differentia at the extreme peripheral, transient >motion or change closer in, structure and depth closer than that (geometry= ) >and colour, clear edges and focus at the centre of our vision. That may be so. But, What does "furry around the edges" mean? The geometry= =20 is already there in the physical world that we can take our rulers out and= =20 measure. The fact that the subjective image is most sharp at the center of= =20 our vision has to do with the mechanisms of the retina's rods, cones and=20 connective neural system that transfers their coherent optical images into = a=20 holistic electromagnetic analog on a point for point basis to form inner=20 holographic image interference patterns in our visual or subjective space=20 (enfolded higher order field phase) that is an exact geometric replica of t= he=20 outer physical objective space after holographic reconstruction by point=20 source rays of coherent "inner light" projected from the zero-point's=20 spinergy. Much of the visual limitations you speak of have to do with the= =20 necessity for convergence and focus in order to be able to concentrate on a= =20 particular point in the image field without distraction from the peripheral= =20 areas (other than being alert to motion in those areas). This has to do wit= h=20 our survival inherited from our hunter and hunted forbears. Much can be sai= d=20 about it from a psychological or evolutionary POV -- although it has nothin= g=20 much to do with the inner and outer field geometry's and image=20 transformational processes being discussed. These are nothing more than field effects on the informational level, that= =20 have to follow logical and lawfully consistent image transformational and=20 transfer/transmission processes. In this theory, the zero-points of=20 awareness/will (that are everywhere) emits coherent rays of the highest=20 frequency order "light" that reconstructs the hologram carried in the=20 mind/memory field circumferences (that are nowhere). The fact that we learn= =20 the meaning of these images and take the most practical shortcuts to=20 perceptive recognition's and responses based on sometimes wrongly condition= ed=20 or misapplied memory as well as inattention and distraction, doesn't change= =20 the basic nature or structure of the analogous geometric field we perceive= =20 (i.e., look at, but not necessarily "see"). >Why, then, would geometry be the template? You mention the importance >of geometry in most if not all fields of science. But equal with geometry >is energy/mass. Earlier big bang theories such as the primeval atom and >Gamow's hot big bang placed a much greater importance on the history of >the energy mass of the universe than the geometry. That's because the only things that could be measured and examined=20 reductively was the energy/mass. But the forms of energy/mass are built of= =20 interacting fields of energy that are all fundamentally spherical in nature= =20 (unless interfered with by other impinging fields that break their symmetry= ).=20 In any event, the geometry of the primal fields before the breaking of the= ir=20 symmetry is as fundamental as is their energy/mass equivalency -- e.g., The= =20 nature of DNA can much better be understood if we see the geometry's and=20 resultant topologies of their amino acids and proteins as being fundamental= =20 to their functions. Could that be why the artists and architects of the=20 Bauhaus took as their motto, "form follows function?" They could just as=20 well have based that on their conclusion from nature that "function follows= =20 form." In any event, what we consciously experience of the universe itself,= =20 through the mechanisms of vision alone, is nothing but it's geometry (which= =20 is as fundamental as its force or energy). >Time is also an essential component. All phenomena occur 'in time'. Why >isn't time more important than geometry? When you close your eyes, when >you dream, as long as you are alive there is a clear relationship with tim= e. >Geometry plays a major role in vision and a lesser role with other senses. >For free thought, say the contemplation of pure math problems, it plays >no role whatsoever. Who ever implied that geometry was more fundamental than time? For the=20 Universe to begin prior to the "big bang" (which we can only measure on the= =20 physical phase of its involution and evolution) -- abstract motion and=20 absolute non motion were the only fundamentals. Out of those beginnings,=20 expressing themselves as multidimensional spherical geometry's around a=20 stationary point, came energy/Mass, inertia, entropy, and time (simply as t= he=20 measure of change within the field of 3-dimensional space -- not as a=20 directional dimension, even though contrived to be used as such in order to= =20 make Einstein's intuitive 4-dimensional space-time continuum mathematics=20 work out satisfactorily). As for geometry playing a lesser role than the=20 other=20 senses, I do not think that is true, since the aural sense is closely linke= d=20 to geometry, as is the tactile (and pain) sense which are dependent on the= =20 geometry of the sound space=A0as well as the body space. We can always ask= ,=20 where is a conscious experience felt, seen, heard, or coming from or locate= d=20 spatially? As for free thought, how can we separate the equations we "see" in our mind= ,=20 and write down on paper, as being independent of the geometrical mind space= =20 around them, or surrounding the paper, pencil, and hand we write them down = on=20 and with? No matter what we are thinking, we can never separate those=20 thoughts from the 3-D space we are always at the center of. Such thoughts= =20 are always somewhere else out there (even if that "out there" is in the min= d=20 field) some distance away from the point of awareness that is considering=20 them. There also has to be a close geometrical relationship between what w= e=20 see, what we are thinking, and what we do with our body within the visual=20 field. This could only occur coordinately if there is a direct field=20 connection between these different aspects of our being. Since these=20 connections are below our perceptive awareness, their practice (such as=20 writing, playing music, speaking, singing, etc.) creates new reinforced=20 neurological channels in the brain and corresponding patterns in the=20 mind/memory fields that make such actions apparently automatic.=20 >If there were a universal template for consciousness (that is borrowed fro= m >the perceptual world) it would be time. But something approaching qualia >is more likely. I doubt that either time or qualia has anything to do with the geometry of= =20 perception, since qualia is the perception or experience itself, and can on= ly=20 be the awareness function of the zero-point center of consciousness -- whic= h=20 is separate (a different aspect of fundamental "space") from the "field"=20 images or contents of consciousness. And, time is nothing more than the=20 "measure of change" which is dependent on the frequency order or phase=20 of the multispacial field of action it is associated with. In any such fie= ld=20 it is=20 inversely proportional to the speed of the "light" in that field -- with th= e=20 speed of light in the higher order hyperspatial fields being much faster th= an=20 in the physical space-time continuum. Thus, images or forms in those field= s=20 are progressively longer lasting as they get closer to the frequency of the= =20 first expressed field of the primal zero-point spinergy itself (which is of= =20 infinite frequency, momentum, and velocity -- and, thus, of infinite=20 duration). >I've no doubt that yours and Alex's theories play a role. But presenting >them as primary may be a little optimistic. And expecting to find a littl= e >world inside the brain that geometrically mirrors the world outside is >just silly. There is no need of that UNLESS a homunculus with independent >ability to interpret visual information is to view it. If this is the >case, we (the entire human) are the homunculus and the geometry is 'out=20 >there'. Now what happens?? Another round of breaking down and rebuilding? Silly, from your point of view, perhaps, but perfectly logical and consiste= nt=20 with scientific reality from the point of view of image information transfe= r=20 through a long chain of field transformations, breakdowns and=20 reconstruction's -- until the image is finally experienced in all its reali= ty=20 by an individual observer. But, then, what makes you think that we expect = to=20 find "a little world inside the brain that geometrically mirrors the world= =20 outside." I don't think any of us electromagnetic field theorists or=20 holographic geometricians have even implied that... Since most of our=20 theories are concerned with the image information in the brain's holistic e= m=20 field -- which are outside of the brain's neurology... (And in my case,=20 include the higher order consciousness fields which are not even in the sam= e=20 spatial order as the brain or its em field)=20=20=20 As for the homunculus, since my claim is that it is the coadunate zero-poin= t=20 centers of the enrire body/brain/mind/memory fields that do the viewing and= =20 interpreting, where could we expect to find such a singular "little man=20 inside." As you said, perhaps we are (the entire human) the homunculus, an= d=20 the geometry is out there (as well as reconstructed "in here"). Don't we go= =20 through that breaking down and rebuilding, every time we see or sense anoth= er=20 image in our mind? Doesn't the process extending from the broken down dot= =20 matrix retinal image to the reassembled brain field hologram (and beyond, t= o=20 the mind/memory fields) also do just that? Must we trace every sensation -= -=20 from impression, through processing and transmission, to reception -- in=20 order to prove that all the senses work the same way and follow the same=20 principles?=20=20 Is there any better way to explain the reversible dynamic processes that=20 allow both awareness and will to travel up and down the same pathways,=20 and ties together all our sensory cortexes with the kinesthetic cortex that= =20 controls all our actions within the 3-dimensional geometry's of both the=20 outer objective and inner subjective worlds (that we directly experience as= =20 if they were one, and as if we were one with them)? Where else could our=20 "unity in diversity" stem from -- other than the ubiquitous and coadunate=20 zero-point within its surrounding spun out and involved spinergy fields = =20 (which can take infinitely diverse active forms without losing their=20 interconnections through their static zero-point centers or tangent=20 circumferences)? Best wishes, Leon Maurer >Kind Regards, >Robert Karl Stonjek. From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 02 07:35:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 5969 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:35:01 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-25.look.ca ([216.154.45.120] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1880Ic-0007tN-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC3F0B3.88F88F47@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:35:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Leon's "absolutely". . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I wonder if Leon ever gets stumped much, or if he's "absolutely" pretty much all the time . . . Speculatively, Mauri From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 02 07:38:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 49534 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:38:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 15:38:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:38:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter"... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4284 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach And since all the other letters to Sinnet have been stated by=20 Graphologist Harrison to in the same handwriting, so must conclusivly=20 they all be concocted fakes, I agree. Bri= =3D=0D an --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi all of you, >=20 > The letter frequently referred to by Brian (not to confuse=20 with "Brain"...>:-) a friendly joke ...) seems to be found at: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm > It dates the year 1882. >=20 > I have one important question to Caldwell and others. Do you know=20 what the exact year was when this letter first was made public - for=20 real ? >=20 > I claim this (i.e. not being 100% certain using the ESP): > This letter is NOT a Mahatma Letter in its original form, i.e. the form i= =3D=0D t=20 was presented to A. P. Sinnett. > Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter - and a=20 someone has even released it to official view. > (I.e. time as such has sort of changed the letters content of=20 information.) > A view we experience today on the Internet via the above link. >=20 > Prove me wrong if you can ! > Let us remember, that the Dugpas(i.e. Fake spiritualists) also can play=20 with the magic fire. >=20 > Bacause the letter has been made official in the version it has with its = =3D=0D - "careless" - remarks on races and sub-races, and because of later=20 historical events - especially Hitlers Swastika and his and his friends=20 deeds of evil - and their racist MASTERACE ("=DCbermensch") theories,=20 > and because of the present Thesophical groups use of the Swastika,=20 > and because of a greater groups of theosophists being the followers=20 of either C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his=20 book - "Man Whence how and Whither" - (not to mention A. Besants=20 involvment). > OR certain Alice A. Bailey groups ("westernized aryan anti-global- view ") interpretation of the wisdom-tachings --- > then --- > true Theosophy - and the Ancient Wisdom Teachings of all ages have=20 a problem today defending such a letter without being called racists or=20 the like. >=20 > My knowledge about the masters make me seek to defend them here. > A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen=20 these - racist - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured -=20 either - that the letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings=20 would have ar(a)isen (I think Caldwell is right here RE-read the whole=20 letter - using a spiritual sense of mind. But when read dead-letter - you=20 get trouble.) - or the Master would have known that the letter would be=20 made into a forgery - and then rested in peace ! > Or... >=20 > My view is, this: The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this=20 letter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow=20 this to happen. >=20 > The whole idea about the Mahatma letters was this :=20 > The students of Theosophy should not believe - blindly - everything -=20 everyone says about the Mahatmas and what is said, that They write in=20 letters and What they do and What they say !!! > And that is the truth and nothing but the truth so God - ParaBrahman=20 help you all. >=20 > Ponder on this: Has any magician ever changed ANY of the Mahatma=20 letters after they was read the first time ? Has any Master changed one=20 of them later on in time and space ? Did he/she (or "it" or they) change=20 the paper or the ink ? > Do we then REALLY know if they are REAL ? > My view is NO, not unlees we are recognized Chelas ! >=20 > And please do use the '7 keys' which Blavatsky refers to, - if you can - = =3D=0D while reading my letter(s). >=20 > All this talk about races. > And Martin Luther King Jr. who wanted us all to transcend our race,=20 tribe, spiritual -and national narrowmindedness. > When will this happen ? >=20 >=20 > (PS.: Thanks to Master Morya for standing by my side...well I=20 guess..>:-)) No spiritual 'Panama' channels here or perfumes - but just=20 a joke.) >=20 > Take care ! This email could be a (spiritual) decoy... > Feel free to do your very best. >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with patience...=20 > and a brand new Mahatma Letter year 2002, date 1st november, hour=20 GMT18:39... > and laughs... >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 02 07:45:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 16603 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1171 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve:"Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is anyy evidence." Brian: No that was not my point, you are misrepresenting my post. And you are offering no concrete facts to back up your stated assumption. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters > are > > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on > if > > you want to believe it or not. > > Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is > anyy evidence. > > > > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race > > The questionhere is whether "white" applied to a society in India or > Tibet has anything to do with white skin. As for an authentic > document from that source, you may have just quoted one. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 02 09:52:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 17:52:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 69866 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 17:52:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4678 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Morten Nymann Olesen, I am responding to your email posted at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8375 You write: "Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter [ML 23b] . . . ." This view is not really that unique. I have a whole file of letters and emails from various Theosophical students over the years who have proposed similar explanations about other Mahatma letters. But this is the first time I have heard anyone question this particular letter ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm ). For example, some readers and students have suggested that some of the teachings about life after death as found in Koot Hoomi's letters could NOT have originated with the real Master. They suggest that HPB or some chela or even some dugpa must have added their two cents worth and therefore distorted the REAL teaching of the Master about various aspects of life after death. Or take Letter # 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm A number of students of the MLs believe that much of what is in this letter does not orginate with the real Master KH. HPB or somebody else must have distorted the message in the letter. The same for ML #134 where we find a message from M: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm Or several Theosophical students who don't believe in reincarnation therefore have questioned the teaching of reincarnation as found in the MLs. I could cite other examples. In each and every case including yours too --- these students are apparently assuming they know what the real teaching is all about or that they have a better conception of what a real Master would write or not write. Therefore they conclude that because this or that Mahatma Letter does not live up to their "standard" therefore there must be something wrong with the letter. Of course this is possible but when reviewing ALL of the various objections one might conclude that there is hardly a theosophical teaching found in the Mahatma Letters that some student does not dispute. Therefore, should we conclude that all the letters are "faked" or "distorted"? Morten, you view ML 23-b as somehow "faked" but do you accept ML #10 or #134? You may think these two letters are genuine but there are students who disagree. Who is right? Concerning ML23-b, you write that it contains " 'careless' - remarks on races and sub-races." But are the remarks actually careless? I don't find the remarks to be "careless" when you view them in the context of all of the theosophical teachings. Again, you write: "A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen these - racist - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured - either - that the letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings would have ar(a)isen . . . . - or the Master would have known that the letter would be made into a forgery - and then rested in peace !" But the point Morten is: is your assumption really true? You are entitled to entertain this opinion but is your assumption the only valid one? Master KH never claimed to be all-knowing or infallible. He says this more than once in the MLs. Yet you are assuming he should have looked into the future, saw..., etc. etc. You also write: "The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this letter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow this to happen." Okay, I guess this is one possibility if you make and accept 3 or 4 related assumptions. But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or somehow faked? Morten, you also mention Mr. Leadbeater: ". . . C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his book - 'Man Whence how and Whither' " I am somewhat surprised by your use of the words: CLEARLY FAKE. What happened to your admonitions to use the "the '7 keys'" and use "a spiritual sense of mind"? If Nicholas Weeks wrote something like that about Alice Bailey, I can imagine you would write a few emails protesting his "literalness". But you seem to have no problem labelling something Leadbeater wrote as CLEARLY FAKE. Strange..... Then back to your question: "Do you know what the exact year was when this letter first was made public - for real ?" But if this question was answered, could this in anyway change your mind that Mahatma Letter #23b was faked? Would knowing the exact year in anyway confirm or falsify your assumption about this letter? Daniel From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 02 09:56:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 17:56:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 69578 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-07-35.look.ca ([216.154.46.82] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1882Vv-0001jb-00; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:56:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC411FA.631F32EE@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:57:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re absolutism and nihilism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Hey, Leon, Gerald wrote: <> Any comments about that Leon? From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 02 10:11:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 27097 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 18:11:25 -0000 Received: from pool0526.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.14.16] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1882jV-00033P-00; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:10:54 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Manas & Logic Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 10:06:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nov 2 2002 Dear Tim: What you write is most interesting. May I break in with some observations and questions? Contrary to Western pragmatics and materialism, Theosophy ( as you will see in The SECRET DOCTRINE -- pp 14 -19 (the 3 Fundamentals) ) starts with the SOURCE of phenomena and not the phenomena as we sense it. I wonder if we can investigate these? The first 300 pages of the SECRET DOCTRINE provide a basis to employ any of our philosophical or logical tools. This gives wide latitude, of course. It is synthetic and creative (inductive ?) rather than analytical, yet in its completeness it includes both. The matter of the ethical / moral configuration as a part of reality and its philosophy is an essential. The =93emotional aspect=94 of things can no more be eliminated from consideration than the concept that experience builds continuously the fund of wisdom in the whole of Nature. After all, can we not say: Nature (the universe, our world) has been around for an enormous period of time and supports our existence, petty and small though we may be. I would conclude we may fairly look for the LAWS OF EXISTENCE all around us and within the fabric of Nature. As I read the S D, it starts with the abstractions of the Universe, its source and purpose, and looks on our Earth and our present personal existence as only a fraction of the great Whole. It looks on these as propositions of logical necessity, not as axioms to be accepted without due research and analysis. It views all aggregated forms as a mass of intelligences all developing cooperatively together. In and among these some seem to advance and acquire a grater degree of intelligence, and with effort, develop this faculty to an extraordinary degree. We can trace aspects of this way of developing and thinking to eastern and ancient schools. But that is only to say they were preserved there. Philosophy and theosophy are ancient and are universal. Our sense of location or history are irrelevant to the concepts to be analysed or synthesized. I was reading H P B=92 s LE PHARE DE L=92INCONNU and it seems to offer may leads along these lines. (August, September, October THEOSOPHIST 1889) As to the law of the excluded middle, Theosophy visualizes a corrective triangle of forcers whereby the polar extremes of say, Spirit and Matter, (force and form) are equilibrated by understanding, intelligence and consciousness. The Mind as a faculty is, in general, the bridge, and provides for the necessary give and take of any set of two opposites. It makes relativity possible. [ The MONAD in evolution would then be SPIRIT-MATTER-MIND. ] In the vat Pralayas that gulf periods of manifestation the individual Monads, though resolved back into the ABSOLUTE are said by H P B to retain their individual particularity owing to the aggregations of =93skandhas=94 they have acquired during the prior periods of evolution in which they have participated. ] To live and experience is the only way, I agree, to discover the way in which the universe, world, man and atom interrelate. Buddhism has become interpreted in many ways. It is not monolithic, but seems based (to me) on conditions and facts in nature. I do not find that the Buddha subscribed to a meaningless or a pointless existence, with NOTHING as a result of long and protracted living according to the laws of brotherhood and reciprocity -- charity and compassion for all. This seems to make happiness reasonable and an ideal way of living, if all participate in such an expressions and make it possible. I therefore look on one of the results of evolution and self-discipline (morally) for each Monad, to be the gradual transformation of =93Kama-- passion=94 into =93Buddhi-compassion=94 or wisdom. I agree with you that theosophy covers vastly more than the average, the superficial or the merely politic concepts of current thinking.. But perhaps I am not reading you well, and I hope you will correct me. Let me subjoin a small section from The SECRET DOCTRINE to illustrate my theme. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _____ [[Vol. 1, Page 1]] THE SECRET DOCTRINE PROEM PAGES FROM A PRE-HISTORIC PERIOD. AN Archaic Manuscript -- a collection of palm leaves made impermeable to water, fire, and air, by some specific unknown process -- is before the writer's eye. On the first page is an immaculate white disk within a dull black ground. On the following page, the same disk, but with a central point. The first, the student knows to represent Kosmos in Eternity, before the re-awakening of still slumbering Energy, the emanation of the Word in later systems. The point in the hitherto immaculate Disk, Space and Eternity in Pralaya, denotes the dawn of differentiation. It is the Point in the Mundane Egg (see Part II., "The Mundane Egg"), the germ within the latter which will become the Universe, the ALL, the boundless, periodical Kosmos, this germ being latent and active, periodically and by turns. The one circle is divine Unity, from which all proceeds, whither all returns. Its circumference -- a forcibly limited symbol, in view of the limitation of the human mind -- indicates the abstract, ever incognisable PRESENCE, and its plane, the Universal Soul, although the two are one. Only the face of the Disk being white and the ground all around black, shows clearly that its plane is the only knowledge, dim and hazy though it still is, that is attainable by man. It is on this plane that the Manvantaric manifestations begin; for it is in this SOUL that slumbers, during the Pralaya, the Divine Thought,* wherein lies concealed the plan of every future Cosmogony and Theogony. =85 p. 2 THE SECRET DOCTRINE, I. It is the ONE LIFE, eternal, invisible, yet Omnipresent, without beginning or end, yet periodical in its regular manifestations, between which periods reigns the dark mystery of non-Being; unconscious, yet absolute Consciousness; unrealizable, yet the one self-existing reality; truly, "a chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason." Its one absolute attribute, which is ITSELF, eternal, ceaseless Motion, is called in esoteric parlance the "Great Breath,"* which is the perpetual motion of the universe, in the sense of limitless, ever-present SPACE. That which is motionless cannot be Divine. But then there is nothing in fact and reality absolutely motionless within the universal soul. =85From the beginning of man's inheritance, from the first appearance of the architects of the globe he lives in, the unrevealed Deity was recognized and considered under its only philosophical aspect -- universal motion, the thrill of the creative Breath in Nature. Occultism sums up the "One Existence" thus: "Deity is an arcane, living (or moving) FIRE, and the eternal witnesses to this unseen Presence are Light, Heat, Moisture," -- this trinity including, and being the cause of, every p. 3 PROEM, S D I. phenomenon in Nature.* Intra-Cosmic motion is eternal and ceaseless; cosmic motion (the visible, or that which is subject to perception) is finite and periodical. As an eternal abstraction it is the EVER-PRESENT; as a manifestation, it is finite both in the coming direction and the opposite, the two being the alpha and omega of successive reconstructions. Kosmos -- the NOUMENON -- has nought to do with the causal relations of the phenomenal World. It is only with reference to the intra-cosmic soul, the ideal Kosmos in the immutable Divine Thought, that we may say: "It never had a beginning nor will it have an end." With regard to its body or Cosmic organization, though it cannot be said that it had a first, or will ever have a last construction, yet at each new Manvantara, its organization may be regarded as the first and the last of its kind, as it evolutes every time on a higher plane . . . . A few years ago only, it was stated that: -- "The esoteric doctrine teaches, like Buddhism and Brahminism, and even the Kabala, that the one infinite and unknown Essence exists from all eternity, and in regular and harmonious successions is either passive or active. In the poetical phraseology of Manu these conditions are called the "Days" and the "Nights" of Brahma. The latter is either "awake" or "asleep." The Svabhavikas, or philosophers of the oldest school of Buddhism (which still exists in Nepal), speculate only upon the active condition of this "Essence," which they call Svabhavat, and deem it foolish to theorize upon the abstract and "unknowable" power in its passive condition. Hence they are called atheists by both Christian theologians and modern scientists, for neither of the p. 4 THE SECRET DOCTRINE, I. two are able to understand the profound logic of their philosophy. The former will allow of no other God than the personified secondary powers which have worked out the visible universe, and which became with them the anthropomorphic God of the Christians -- the male Jehovah, roaring amid thunder and lightning. In its turn, rationalistic science greets the Buddhists and the Svabhavikas as the "positivists" of the archaic ages. If we take a one-sided view of the philosophy of the latter, our materialists may be right in their own way. The Buddhists maintained that there is no Creator, but an infinitude of creative powers, which collectively form the one eternal substance, the essence of which is inscrutable -- hence not a subject for speculation for any true philosopher. Socrates invariably refused to argue upon the mystery of universal being, yet no one would ever have thought of charging him with atheism, except those who were bent upon his destruction. Upon inaugurating an active period, says the Secret Doctrine, an expansion of this Divine essence from without inwardly and from within outwardly, occurs in obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces thus progressively set in motion. In like manner, when the passive condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its material dispersed; and 'darkness' solitary and alone, broods once more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a Metaphor from the Secret Books, which will convey the idea still more clearly, an out-breathing of the 'unknown essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to disappear. This process has been going on from all eternity, and our present universe is but one of an infinite series, which had no beginning and will have no end." -- (See "Isis Unveiled"; also "The Days and Nights of Brahma" in Part II.) This passage will be explained, as far as it is possible, in the present work. Though, as it now stands, it contains nothing new to the Orientalist, its esoteric interpretation may contain a good deal which has hitherto remained entirely unknown to the Western student. The first illustration being a plain disc the second one in the Archaic symbol shows , a disc with a point in it -- the first differentiation in the periodical manifestations of the ever-eternal nature, sexless and infinite "Aditi in THAT" (Rig Veda), the point in the disc, or potential Space within abstract Space. In its third stage the point is transformed into a diameter, thus It now symbolises a divine immaculate Mother-Nature within the all-embracing absolute Infinitude. _____ p. 5 PROEM, S D I. When the diameter line is crossed by a vertical one , it becomes the mundane cross. Humanity has reached its third root-race; it is the sign for the origin of human life to begin. When the circumference disappears and leaves only the it is a sign that the fall of man into matter is accomplished, and the FOURTH race begins. The Cross within a circle symbolises pure Pantheism; when the Cross was left uninscribed, it became phallic. It had the same and yet other meanings as a TAU inscribed within a circle or as a "Thor's hammer," the Jaina cross, so-called, or simply Svastica within a circle By the third symbol -- the circle divided in two by the horizontal line of the diameter -- the first manifestation of creative (still passive, because feminine) Nature was meant. The first shadowy perception of man connected with procreation is feminine, because man knows his mother more than his father. Hence female deities were more sacred than the male. Nature is therefore feminine, and, to a degree, objective and tangible, and the spirit Principle which fructifies it is concealed. By adding to the circle with the horizontal line in it, a perpendicular line, the tau was formed -- -- -- the oldest form of the letter. It was the glyph of the third root-race to the day of its symbolical Fall -- i.e., when the separation of sexes by natural evolution took place -- when the figure became , the circle, or sexless life modified or separated -- a double glyph or symbol. With the races of our Fifth Race it became in symbology the sacr', and in Hebrew n'cabvah, of the first-formed races;* then it changed into the Egyptian (emblem of life), and still later into the sign of Venus, Then comes the Svastica (Thor's hammer, or the "Hermetic Cross" now), entirely separated from its Circle, thus becoming purely phallic. The esoteric symbol of Kali Yuga is the five-pointed star reversed, thus -- the sign of human sorcery, with its two points (horns) turned heavenward, a position every [[Footnote(s)]] ------------------------------------------------- * See that suggestive work, "The Source of Measures," where the author explains the real meaning of the word "sacr'," from which "sacred," "sacrament," are derived, which have now become synonyms of "holiness," though purely phallic! _____ p. 6 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Occultist will recognize as one of the "left-hand," and used in ceremonial magic.* =85. It is wrong and unjust to regard the Buddhists and Advaitee Occultists as atheists. If not all of them philosophers, they are, at any rate, all logicians, their objections and arguments being based on strict reasoning. Indeed, if the Parabrahmam of the Hindus may be taken as a representative of the hidden and nameless deities of other nations, this absolute Principle will be found to be the prototype from which all the others were copied. Parabrahm is not "God," because It is not a God. "It is that which is supreme, and not supreme (paravara)," explains Mandukya Upanishad (2.28). IT is "Supreme" as CAUSE, not supreme as effect. Parabrahm is simply, as a "Secondless Reality," the all-inclusive Kosmos -- or, rather, the infinite Cosmic Space -- in the highest spiritual sense, of course. Brahma (neuter) being the unchanging, pure, free, undecaying supreme Root, "the ONE true Existence, Paramarthika," and the absolute Chit and Chaitanya (intelligence, consciousness) cannot be a cognize, "for THAT can have no subject of cognition." Can the flame be called the essence of Fire? This Essence is "the LIFE and LIGHT of the Universe, the visible fire and flame are destruction, death, and evil." "Fire and Flame destroy the body of an Arhat, their essence makes him immortal." (Bodhi-mur, Book II.) "The knowledge of the absolute Spirit, like the effulgence of the sun, or like heat in fire, is naught else than the absolute Essence itself," says Sankaracharya. IT -- is "the Spirit of the Fire," not fire itself; therefore, "the attributes of the latter, heat or flame, are not the attributes of the Spirit, but of that of which that Spirit is the unconscious cause." Is not the above sentence the true key-note of later Rosicrucian =85 p. 7 PROEM. philosophy? Parabrahm is, in short, the collective aggregate of Kosmos in its infinity and eternity, the "THAT" and "THIS" to which distributive aggregates can not be applied.* "In the beginning THIS was the Self, one only" (Aitareya Upanishad); the great Sankaracharya, explains that "THIS" referred to the Universe (Jagat); the sense of the words, "In the beginning," meaning before the reproduction of the phenomenal Universe. Therefore, when the Pantheists echo the Upanishads, which state, as in the Secret Doctrine, that "this" cannot create, they do not deny a Creator, or rather a collective aggregate of creators, but only refuse, very logically, to attribute "creation" and especially formation, something finite to an Infinite Principle. With them, Parabrahmam is a passive because an Absolute Cause, the unconditioned Mukta. It is only limited Omniscience and Omnipotence that are refused to the latter, because these are still attributes (as reflected in man's perceptions); and because Parabrahm, being the "Supreme ALL," the ever invisible spirit and Soul of Nature, changeless and eternal, can have no attributes; absoluteness very naturally precluding any idea of the finite or conditioned from being connected with it. And if the Vedantin postulates attributes as belonging simply to its emanation, calling it "Iswara plus Maya," and Avidya (Agnosticism and Nescience rather than ignorance), it is difficult to find any Atheism in this conception.** Since there can be neither two INFINITES nor two ABSOLUTES in a Universe supposed to be Boundless, this Self-Existence can hardly be conceived of as creating personally. In the sense and perceptions of finite "Beings," THAT is Non-"being," in the sense that it is the one BE-NESS; for, in this ALL lies concealed its coeternal and coeval emanation or inherent radiation, which, upon becoming periodically Brahma (the male-female Potency) becomes or expands itself into the manifested Universe. Narayana moving on the (abstract) waters of Space, is transformed into the Waters of concrete substance moved by him, who now becomes the manifested WORD or Logos. =85. p. 9 PROEM. =85. The God of the Apostle-Initiate and of the Rishi being both the Unseen and the Visible SPACE. Space is called in the esoteric symbolism "the Seven-Skinned Eternal Mother-Father." It is composed from its undifferentiated to its differentiated surface of seven layers. "What is that which was, is, and will be, whether there is a Universe or not; whether there be gods or none?" asks the esoteric Senzar Catechism. And the answer made is -- SPACE. It is not the One Unknown ever-present God in Nature, or Nature in abscondito, that is rejected, but the God of human dogma and his humanized "Word." In his infinite conceit and inherent pride and vanity, man shaped it himself with his sacrilegious hand out of the material he found in his own small brain-fabric, and forced it upon mankind as a direct revelation from the one unrevealed SPACE.** The Occultist =85 _____ p. 10 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. accepts revelation as coming from divine yet still finite Beings, the manifested lives, never from the Unmanifestable ONE LIFE; from those entities, called Primordial Man, Dhyani-Buddhas, or Dhyan-Chohans, the "Rishi-Prajapati" of the Hindus, the Elohim or "Sons of God," the Planetary Spirits of all nations, who have become Gods for men. =85 . p. 11 PROEM. of a highly philosophical page in the World's Cosmogony. (See Book III., Gupta Vidya and the Zohar.) Left in their symbolical disguise, they are a nursery tale, an ugly thorn in the side of science and logic, an evident effect of Karma. =85 The Occult Catechism contains the following questions and answers: "What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."* "What is it that ever was?" "The Germ in the Root." "What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath." "Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the three are one. That which ever is is one, that which ever was is one, that which is ever being and becoming is also one: and this is Space." "Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." -- "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle, manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods; the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the Mother, the summit and base of the Father, the two extremities of the Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the rings that are within that Ring. Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and from within outwardly, when it is nowhere -- (i.e., maya,** one of the centres***). It expands and p. 12 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. contracts (exhalation and inhalation). When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the mother draws back and ingathers. This produces the periods of Evolution and Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya. The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plane of the circle) is cool; but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant. Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element (heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous). Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (of the Day of Brahma, or Manvantara). . . . ." For clearer understanding on the part of the general reader, it must be stated that Occult Science recognizes Seven Cosmical Elements -- four entirely physical, and the fifth (Ether) semi-material, as it will become visible in the air towards the end of our Fourth Round, to reign supreme over the others during the whole of the Fifth. The remaining two are as yet absolutely beyond the range of human perception. These latter will, however, appear as presentments during the 6th and 7th Races of this Round, and will become known in the 6th and 7th Rounds respectively.* These seven elements with their numberless Sub-Elements =85 p. 13 PROEM. far more numerous than those known to Science) are simply conditional modifications and aspects of the ONE and only Element. =85 p. 14 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The Secret Doctrine establishes THREE FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITIONS: -- (a) An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought -- in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable." To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause -- dimly formulated in the "Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy -- is the rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be." It is of course devoid of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, Sat), and is beyond all thought or speculation. This "Be-ness" is symbolised in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. On the one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, the one thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, or conceive of by itself. On the other, absolute Abstract Motion representing Unconditioned Consciousness. Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable to us apart from change, and motion best symbolises change, its essential characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality, is also symbolised by the term "The Great Breath," a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE -- BE-NESS -- symbolised by finite intelligence as the theological Trinity. It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are given here. Herbert Spencer has of late so far modified his Agnosticism, as to assert that the nature of the "First Cause,"* which the Occultist more logically derives from the "Causeless Cause," the "Eternal," and the "Unknowable," may be essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up within us: in short, that the impersonal reality pervading p. 15 PROEM. the Kosmos is the pure noumenon of thought. This advance on his part brings him very near to the esoteric and Vedantin tenet.* Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But once that we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, Subject and Object. Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not as independent realities, but as the two facets or aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether subjective or objective. Considering this metaphysical triad as the Root from which proceeds all manifestation, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. It is the fons et origo of force and of all individual consciousness, and supplies the guiding intelligence in the vast scheme of cosmic Evolution. On the other hand, precosmic root-substance (Mulaprakriti) is that aspect of the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades of its differentiation. Hence it will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe." Apart from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle** of matter that consciousness wells up as "I am I," a physical basis being necessary to focus a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain stage of complexity. Again, apart from Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty abstraction, and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. The "Manifested Universe," therefore, is pervaded by duality, which is, as it were, the very essence of its EX-istence as "manifestation." p. 16 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. But just as the opposite poles of subject and object, spirit and matter, are but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized, so, in the manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject to object. This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by the occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the "Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature." Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from the other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through the Dhyan Chohans,* the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualised and attains to self -- or reflective -- consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle electrifying every atom into life. The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. (1.) The ABSOLUTE; the Parabrahm of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. (2.) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, unmanifested Logos, the precursor of the "manifested." This is the "First Cause," the "Unconscious" of European Pantheists. (3.) Spirit-matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe," the Purusha and Prakriti, or the second Logos. (4.) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World-Soul; the Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. The ONE REALITY; its dual aspects in the conditioned Universe. Further, the Secret Doctrine affirms: -- (b.) The Eternity of the Universe in toto as a boundless plane; periodically "the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and disappearing," called "the manifesting stars," and the "sparks of Eternity." "The Eternity of the Pilgrim"** is like a wink [[Footnote(s)]] ------------------------------------------------- ** "Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our Monad (the two in one) during its cycle of incarnations. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in us, being an indivisible part of the integral whole -- the Universal Spirit, from which it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the cycle. When it is said to emanate from the one _____ p. 17 PROEM. of the Eye of Self-Existence (Book of Dzyan.) "The appearance and disappearance of Worlds is like a regular tidal ebb of flux and reflux." (See Part II., "Days and Nights of Brahma.") This second assertion of the Secret Doctrine is the absolute universality of that law of periodicity, of flux and reflux, ebb and flow, which physical science has observed and recorded in all departments of nature. An alternation such as that of Day and Night, Life and Death, Sleeping and Waking, is a fact so common, so perfectly universal and without exception, that it is easy to comprehend that in it we see one of the absolutely fundamental laws of the universe. Moreover, the Secret Doctrine teaches: -- (c) The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul, the latter being itself an aspect of the Unknown Root; and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul -- a spark of the former -- through the Cycle of Incarnation (or "Necessity") in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law, during the whole term. In other words, no purely spiritual Buddhi (divine Soul) can have an independent (conscious) existence before the spark which issued from the pure Essence of the Universal Sixth principle, -- or the OVER-SOUL, -- has (a) passed through every elemental form of the phenomenal world of that Manvantara, and (b) acquired individuality, first by natural impulse, and then by self-induced and self-devised efforts (checked by its Karma), thus ascending through all the degrees of intelligence, from the lowest to the highest Manas, from mineral and plant, up to the holiest archangel (Dhyani-Buddha). The pivotal doctrine of the Esoteric philosophy admits no privileges or special gifts in man, save those won by his own Ego through personal effort and merit throughout a long series of metempsychoses and reincarnations. =85 -------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Timothy L Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 3:51 PM To: Subject: Re: Manas & Logic In philosophy, and in math, it is necessary to create a system based on unprovable assumptions, which are called axioms, and sometimes propositions. I'm sure Blavatsky was aware of this part of philosophy and as theosophy partakes of philosophy or attempts to expand on it, these things are also necessary here. The ones usually used are identity (a=3Da), non-contradiction, (not [a and not a]) the law of the excluded middle (either a or not a). Also are the ideas are first cause, meaning the chain of causes and effects has a beginning. Remember that these ideas are western, specifically Aristotelian. While I personally agree with all of them, I would say almost all buddhists, as well as many more existential philosphers do not. The problem with chains of deductive reasoning is first that any bad propositions create bad results. As Gerald says 'garbage in, garbage out.' Also it has been proved mathematically much to the chagrin of people like me, that axiomatic systems are fatally flawed. This was proved by Godel's Theorem. This does not mean that axiomatic systems are not useful, as math can be. It only means that they are largely models of reality rather than its true expressions. Also, Bacon had the idea back a ways that inductive reasoning and exploration was far superior to deductive reasoning. We see this applied today in science. Remember that Theosophy is not just a religious ideal but a science. I think Blavatsky left us the widom she had learned, and do not believe that she meant theosophy and its texts to be the last word. And I do not think that being doctrinaire is useful in any religious context. The best people of a religion have a personal experience of religion and hardly any doctrine at all. So I recommend going out and living and gaining experience, writing it down and analyzing it as the best method for gaining spiritual insight. Off the topic a little. My feeling is that Buddhism's logic breaks down when it comes to morality. If life is fundamentally meaningless and empty, then what's the use of compassion? If happiness is an illusion why not nihilism? All this leaves out the emotional aspect, which I believe is just as important as the logical aspect. I have lived like a nihilist and I can tell you that all it got me was miserable, and that once I decided to have some values, purely based on emotional content that I have had a much better life. The head and heart have to work together. Again, as an esotericist my interest is in a method for having experiences like Blavatsky had and Buddhist monks have. Because it is the experience of something greater that is the goal of esoteric religion. Exoteric religion, religion for the many, is basically a doctrine to make people happier and more fulfilled by following some basic rules. Theosophy is not exoteric religion. Tim. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 02 10:49:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 26206 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 183 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: No that was not my point, you are misrepresenting my post. Re-read your e-mail. That was the point. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 02 12:27:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 20:27:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 34251 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 20:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 20:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 20:27:33 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.18d.10932ab2 (30950) for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:27:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18d.10932ab2.2af58f2f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:27:27 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon's "absolutely". . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Mauri, As the Buddha (HPB and Einstein) pointed out (if we can read between the lines of the words they said) -- "The absolute is relative and the relative is absolute." Therefore, there is no such thing as "absolutely" in the sense of *positively*. But then, we must try not to be *negative* -- which sometimes is the result of "speculation" that generally has to come before *determination* and positive *conviction* (after adequate thought). So, since my "absolutely" should have been followed by a smiley (:-) (with reference to your "speculatively") -- take my ideas and theories as "probabilities." Then go back to fundamental principles, study the Book of Dzyan and the HPB commentaries, check the consistencies with the probabilities of scientific thought, follow the absolutely relative logic, and find out for yourself. Then, there will be no need to speculate on anything except, maybe, that theosophical metaphysics is true or it isn't. :-) The only things stumped (relatively or absolutely) by this, are the trees of our own ignorance we can hopefully cut down. Probably, :-) Leon In a message dated 11/02/02 11:36:37 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >I wonder if Leon ever gets stumped much, or >if he's "absolutely" pretty much all the time . . . > >Speculatively, >Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 02 12:42:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 20:42:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 76419 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 20:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 20:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 20:42:43 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.84.1480c26 (30950) for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:42:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <84.1480c26.2af592c0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:42:40 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re absolutism and nihilism To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Gerald and I have always been as odds since he likes to authoritatively speak in Buddhistic paradoxes that have multiple meanings... Therefore, as said before, I'd rather take the view that the relative is absolute and the absolute is relative. The real truth is that fullness and emptiness, one or many, absolute and relative, all exist simultaneously, although, depending upon your point of view, when one is evident, the other is hidden. This is the "middle" view that includes both the "extreme" views. In a message dated 11/02/02 1:56:48 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Hey, Leon, Gerald wrote: > ><exist) and nihilism (that nothing at all exists) are false >extreme views. >> > >Any comments about that Leon? From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 02 23:26:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 07:26:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 96315 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 07:26:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 07:26:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 07:26:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.76.252a0f21 (30950) for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:26:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <76.252a0f21.2af6299c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:26:20 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re speculatively/absolutely . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 10/30/02 8:01:29 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Sorry, I accidentally sent this post to Theos-1 as well. > >This is in response to Leon's post: "re 'for themselves,'" >which is at the end of this post. > >Having received permission from Gerald S. to post his >comments here, this following from him seems relevant, in >a sense, as I see it, to what might be seen as the role and >potential of various forms of human or manasic thought, >dicrimination, intuition, speculation as applied toward the >topics of duality, maya, and non-duality. Quoting from >Gerald: > ><<warn his students not to mistake the finger pointing to the >moon for the moon itself. Our mental images and >cnceptualizations are like pointing fingers. Have you ever >tasted a peach? If so, you can probably write a verbal >description of the taste of a peach that was pretty accurate. >But what would your description mean to someone who >had never tasted a peach? It would just be words. If >someone else who had also tasted a peach read your >description they might say, "Aha, he knows." This is >because verbal descriptions of experiential knowledge >make sense to those who have also had those >experiences. But those folks who have not had the actual >experience will make no sense of it. They will, at best, try >to form mental conceptions of it, and will likely think that >they understand perfectly. As with the taste of a >peach, so spiritual experiences have to be experienced in >order to be understood. We all experience duality, but >nonduality remains a concept until it is experienced. >We see a tree, for example, and we think that a real thing >or object exists externally to and independent of us. >Actually there is no such thing as a tree per se. What we >really see are billions of parts arranged into a certain shape >that we name, by convention, "tree." The very lack of >"treeness," or "thingness" is what Buddhism calls >emptiness. We posit that a "tree" exists based on the shape >of those parts. But no tree as such exists. We can continue >in this vein, for all objects whatsoever. None have any real >"thingness" to them, but are simply collections of parts >arranged into shapes and given names. All phenomena are >empty of "thingness" or "suchness." This is also true >of "persons." This dependent interconnecting network of >parts and names forms our conditional reality. The fact that >there is nothing "real" to anything at all forms our ultimate >reality. If we look at Blavatsky's 7-plane model of the >universe, conditional reality includes the lower four planes, >and ultimate reality includes the upper three planes. Thus >our entire universe is one where phenomena effortlessly >rise up in dependence on causes and conditions, dance >for awhile, and then recede back to their origin. And what >is this origin? It is the Ground of all manifestation, the >Source of both matter and spirit, of both conditional reality >and ultimate reality. It is often called nonduality. >Blavatsky called it Beness. This Beness is ineffable, as >ineffable as the taste of a peach, or the beauty of sunset, or >the emptiness of a tree. It can be experienced, but >descriptions of it are simply conceptualizations that are >meaningful to those who have already experienced it and >meaningless to those who have not. Jerry S.>>>> >============end of quote All well and good as far as the teachings of the Buddha goes. But remember, he was only trying to teach his students (in a basically unscientific and non technological age) the futility of hanging on to constantly changing and temporary things. His purpose was to instill the value of detachment from the forms of matter in his disciples and the recognition that each individual, as an apparently separate conscious being was, in fact, unchanging and in essential oneness or unity with the primal source of all consciousness. Nevertheless, he also said "Nothing comes from nothing" which means that there is a fundamental reality out of which everything springs, evolves, changes, and eventually, is drawn back into the primal source. Unfortunately, Buddha did not have the means to logically and scientifically explain that to his students in metaphysical or physical terms that they could understand -- as HPB was able to do in the 19th Century -- and as we are much more able to do now. Therefore, the tree one sees and can touch, although slowly changing from moment to moment, nevertheless is as real and existent (albeit temporarily) as is the reality and existence of the one who perceives it. In either case there is a definite, logical, and scientifically consistent process of cause and effect which brings these "things" into existence, energizes them, enables their growth, flowering, eventual decay, and ultimate death of their physical forms -- while enabling their spiritual consciousness to return to the source with its accumulated knowledge. . . To spring forth again and again on the next cycles of their evolution toward higher and higher knowledge and awareness of their ultimate oneness with the permanent all, as well as the impermanance of all material things. In theosophical terms, this is the true nature of the relationship between Mahatma and atma. which, together, are eternally part of the primal source of all being. Not only does nothing come from nothing, but nothing is ever lost, -- whether in or out of manifestation or forms or bodies. the only illusion then is the illusion of separatemess. This logical and scientifically explainable process of the involution and evolution of consciousness and matter, which are forever non separable and a unity in duality, is what we (the theosophical student/teachers -- starting with HPB, who only had the bare beginning of modern science at her command) are interested in helping others (who are already steeped in the advanced scientific knowledge of this age) to learn and understand. In doing so, we all can become better able to comprehend the true nature of reality, eliminate the ineffableness of the primal source (which, in the past ages has forced the teachers to rely on authority, revelation, and faith) -- but which now can be explained logically and scientifically from the basis of the knowledge we have today of the objective nature of primal force in all its forms and permutations... This unified force, from Cosmic energy to mass energy, gravity to electricity, that must have had a beginning in an eternal source of infinite momentum ("spinergy" or "abstract motion") and that must forever be conserved, regardless of its changeable states of existence. However if we consider that "ineffable" means that we cannot explain the experience of consciousness, like we cannot explain the color of a rose, I agree with Gerald. But, if it means that we cannot explain the "root" of consciousness as being the inherent nature of the zero-points of empty space, and the root of matter being the abstract motion (or spinergy) surrounding it -- I beg to differ. >As I see it, one cannot transcend mayavic reality by any >amount of mayavic/dualistic reasoning. That is, while >Theosophy may be seen to have value and wisdom, those >are, after all, the dualistic/exoteric aspects or "versions" of >reality/truth (not that such aspects are any less real within >that context). As I see it, Leon, your models/values can >optionally be seen as containing "correctness" in them (as >per whatever current or traditional logical/interpretive >tendency in dualistic terms), but, at the same time, in as >much as such models/values are dualistic, they are also >mayavic . . . "Mayavic" only in the sense that they have no "consistent" reality, since time flows on constantly and everything objective is changing its "state" of existence from moment to moment, as is the contents of our minds and memories. Nevertheless, to those of us in that same state of existence in each moment of time, these objects of both matter and thought continue to be as real as we are (with respect to our marvelous bodies, minds and memories, and their inherent self consciousness as an individualized zero-point ray of the primal consciousness or Supreme Spirit). Mayavic, then, doesn't mean that the physical existence of things are illusions (in the sense that they have no inherent reality) -- but that our belief in them as being permanent is an illusion. This distinction is very subtle and is the source of much confusion among students of theosophy as well as Buddhism. On the cosmic plane, those momentary realities, as ideal forms, also must exist, in relative permanence, as holographic patterns in the higher order consciousness fields, as well as in the original holographically modulated "spinergy" -- out of which these higher order fields are emanated. Thus, the universal consciousness or Cosmic awareness never forgets such "ideal" forms or patterns of things as they are -- which accounts for the repetition of these forms upon each of its serial awakenings out of pralaya. Such archtypal "memories" bound up in the spinergy of the primal zero-point singularity (that, when manifest, is "everywhere" with its field circumferences "nowhere") is what theosophy refers to as "Laya points." Such points contain all the "informative" knowledge or information, as holographic interference patterns of abstract motion, angular momenta, or "spinergy," necessary to reconstruct all the formerly evolved forms of the universe in their original placements in the overall extended dimensional space of the new manvantara. (Like our genes, located in every cell of the body, contains the encoded energy fields necessary for the construction of the entire body.) Thus, theosophy can teach that "consciousness involves while matter evolves" or, that consciousness in-forms while matter out-forms. There is nothing "speculative" in this conception of ultimate reality -- that must always be a duality within a unity, or a trinity, based on the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity. Therefore, "as above, so below" is a fundamental theosophical law of nature. There's nothing specularive in this. >As I see it, in order for Theosophists, or people in general, >to acquire more and more meaningful intuitive or >speculative or thoughtful means of "bridging towards" (at >least) some kind of "esoteric (as opposed to >exoteric/theoretical) sense" or appreciation, by way of >whatever clues or means, (that might be apparent, real, >logical, interpretive, speculative, experiential, etc) "about >the bigger picture" (in terms of "logical Theosophy" or in >whatever interpretive/intuitive terms), then, as I see it, >such bridging might in some cases be somewhat facilitated >by a certain kind of freedom of thought that >(alternatively?) might be seen as related to speculation . . . First off, "intuitive" and "speculative" do not have the same definition. Intuition is the means we use to mentally grasp the fundamental meaning of the teachings. Speculation can only lead us off into unrelated areas of thought. The only freedom of thought we have (as far as the study of t heosophy goes) is to think along consistently logical lines based on the irrefutable "Fundamental Principles" of theosophy -- which must be accepted as a priori propositions before we make judgements about the validity of the teachings that follow. Any other course would be purely speculative and could not be considered as part of a "study of theosophy" per se. (Although, you could probably get some interesting plots for science fiction and fantasy stories out of it..:-) > >But if one's basic freedom of thought and speculativeness >are discouraged for what er reason, how can one >ascertain anything "more meaningfully" ("for better or >worse") for oneself and more-directly address one's karma >. . . I tend to see our speculations as karmic carry-overs of >the kind that, if left unaddressed, will keep on festering, in >a sense, like a sore. I tend to see Theosophy, for example, >as expressive of both current and traditional karmic >(carry-over) meaning of the kind that, if addressed with >mere logic (dualisticity) will keep on festering, carrying >over in the form of dualisticity, and so, in (some cases?), a >somewhat more oblique or abstract or speculative method >might, as I see it, be seen as having a "more relevant role," >(within the confines of one's attempts to gain a certain >helpful perspective toward duality, traditional logic, and >maya), as compared to what might be seen as the use of a >logic that's more linear, traditional, mainstream, "more >apparently reliable," etc. Speculativeness, when considering theosophy is discouraged, but freedom of thought has nothing to do with that. No matter what speculations you make, the fundamental ideas of theosophy will remain as the true basis of universal Cosmogenesis and be the principles underlying both its involution and its evolution. Therefore, the laws of karma, cycles, and periodicity and all the other ideas pertaining to consciousness and matter that spring out of them cannot be changed... Although we can certainly think and argue about them -- provided we can come up with a better system upon which to base the reality we experience. This, however, would mean creating new fundamental principles, along with an entirely new teaching that would be consistent with the laws of science (as proven to be valid) -- and thereby denying theosophy altogether. (Which then would require us to give the system a new name and setting up our own school on another network.:-) Much of present day reductive science attempts to do just that. But, they don't normally choose this forum to present their arguments. Right now, however, we are talking about theosophy, as presented in the SD, which, while offered as a theory, is totally consistent with our observed and experienced reality. Therefore, speculation along those lines just doesn't fit in with the teachings that are straightforward and direct to the point. Although, its perfectly reasonable to speculate on such so called theosophical matters and opinions such as, mahatma letters or religious con cepts (that are not presented as "fundamental" metaphysical truths). >I tend to see potential in certain kinds of speculations as a >means by which one might gain a certain "alternative >perpsective," say, towards maya and the straight jackets of >traditional logic, worldviews, duality. But whether the >"addressing of one's speculations" will yield much or little >in the way of a helpful alternative perspective is, of course, >a highly individual, or self-confrontational matter. If >Theosohy is studied and believed in in its literal sense, on >the other hand, that approach might, in many cases (?), >seem more relevant than a speculativeness that might seem >less realistic, hard to pin down, abstract, unreliable, >illogical, etc. . . There is no "alternative perspective" other than the perspective of seeing the universe from the inside out and the outside in, simultaneously, and having both the inward progressions of logical *involution* meet with the outward progressions of logical *evolution* in the middle. At the same time, the paradoxes must be resolved between emptiness and fullness, one and many, zero and infinity, light and darkness, etc., as unity's in duality's. Theosophy (with respect to its metaphysical teachings) cannot be believed "in it's literal sense" -- that is its "dead letter" -- but must be understood directly, in its figurative sense alone. And, that can only be done if one studies it thoroughly, reads in and around the words and between the lines, and comprehends its inherent consistency and logic. So, as you admit, since speculation could be "less realistic, hard to pin down, abstract, unreliable, illogical, etc." -- one must keep it to oneself until all that inconclusiveness can be resolved in one's own mind. Otherwise, all it can do is add to everyone else's confusion -- not to mention get them pissed off with incessant speculative and ambivalent ramblings. Most likely :-), LHM >Speculatively, >Mauri >======================================= > >Oct 29 Leon wrote: > ><<teachings has nothing to do with interpretation, nor is there >anything speculative about theosophy. > >Its metaphysical teachings are a complete system, sui >generis in itself, that either is or is not the way the universe >must (by dependence on fundamental principles that are >unassailable) have involved and evolved. > >In no way does this theory -- starting from the zero-point >"spinergy" (absolute abstract motion), and progressing >logically and mathematically according to fundamental >laws of "electricity," cycles, and periodicity to its present >state -- contradict any of the theories of reductive or >empirical science (that are based solely on the final >objective/physical phase of universal Cosmogenesis). In >fact, beginning with relativity and quantum physics and >extending to their final synthesis in Superstring/M-brane >mathematics, theosophy has completely anticipated and >presaged all these theories. > >Therefore, after careful thinking about their inherent >reasonableness, one can either accept the theosophical >metaphysical concepts as they are presented, or come up >with another theory that is equally consistent based on >those same principles or propositions. There is no other >choice -- except skeptical denial based on false beliefs, >ignorance or thoughtlessness. > >Since theosophy, through its metaphysical processes, has >demonstrated the inherent unity of all beings in the >universe, all further conclusions relating to the laws of >karma, the eternality of consciousness and temporality of >matter, along with the inherent justice that prevails with >respect to the willful actions of conscious human beings >that alter the harmony of universal causation, follows by >logical deduction. To speculate at this level of >understanding, is an exercise in futility that leads us >nowhere (either from a subjective or objective point of >view) toward a better understanding of the true nature of >reality. > >Thinking for oneself, therefore, must follow logical >progressions of cause and effect that lead to concrete >conclusions and firm convictions. Otherwise >one gets lost in a maelstrom of inconclusiveness and >confusion. > >Absolutely, >LHM>>>>> > >PS I tend to agree with you Leon, in a sense . . . But just >"in a sense" > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 03 01:41:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 09:41:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 65851 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 09:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 09:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 09:41:32 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.d0.2f4cb71a (30950) for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 04:41:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 04:41:26 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re speculatively/absolutely . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Mauri, I suggest you "accidentally" (Ha, Ha) send my recent answer to this post to Theos-L. Maybe, it will interest that "fundie" exoteric Buddhist who you quoted, and possibly enlighten some of his students, (or, at least, start them thinking for themselves. :-) No use breaking that thread you started there. In any event, you have my permission (provided it's in context, without any cuts or rewriting). Attentively, LHM >In a message dated 10/30/02 8:01:29 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: > >>Sorry, I accidentally sent this post to Theos-1 as well. >> >>This is in response to Leon's post: "re 'for themselves,'" >>which is at the end of this post. >> >>Having received permission from Gerald S. to post his >>comments here, this following from him seems relevant, in >>a sense, as I see it, to what might be seen as the role and >>potential of various forms of human or manasic thought, >>dicrimination, intuition, speculation as applied toward the >>topics of duality, maya, and non-duality. Quoting from >>Gerald: (snip) From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 03 04:33:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 12:33:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 59185 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 12:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 12:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 12:33:30 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-12.look.ca ([216.154.45.107] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 188JwV-0007BH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:33:27 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC517AD.24D3F9A9@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 07:33:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Leon . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote: <> In other words (?), you might be saying (by "relative is absolute") that you tend to find some kind of "preferred/worthwhile absoluteness" when dealing with or learning from certain kinds of established, basic models, such as offered by the "esoteric tradition of Theosophy," say . . . even though, at the same time (?), you might ("do"?) prefer the view that "the relative aspects or versions of the initial assumptions" ("initial assumptions" in this case in terms of the exoteric/established "esoteric tradition"?) that such models and Theosophies are based on, are, as per any dualistic/exoteric "version" (of that kind of "initial assumptiveness") not just relative/dualistic/exoteric, (basically, unavoidably?), but, also, at the same time, might be seen (optionally, as by you, Leon, and by many Theosophists?) as being "preferentially absolute" (in order to, say, "more realistically" deal with such as "Buddhistic paradoxes that have multiple meanings... "?) . . . "preferentially absolute" (?) in the sense of, and as a result of, a "preferred perception" (?) that uch models/Theosophies have "established" whatever "necessary worthwhileness" that has been adopted/valued (by manas, karma, tradition) as being "absolute". . . or would one be somewhat closer to a relative truth when positing that such models are seen/judged by many Theosophists as having a "preferred" quality of "absoluteness" associated with them . . . ? <> That kind of wording seems rather sensible to me, in a sense. But/"but" . . . I'm beginning to suspect (or have suspected for some time but haven't quite admitted to myself in so many words, maybe . . . ^:-) that Theosophists, in general, might tend to gravitate toward two (if not more) somewhat distinctly different types of views/values. In broad terms: 1. There would seem to be those (IMHSO) who have cultivated forms of "preferred absoluteness" and "preferred probabilities" from a certain perspective and mindset that might often seem "more relevant" and "more preferred" than the "underlying" esoteric/experiential Reality, "Itself," that has made such "preferred, exoteric versions" possible, or "real," "from the beginning" . . . 2. There would seem to be those (IMHSO) who have cultivated an awareness or sense by which they might cope with various worldviews, appearances, and apparent preferences, but without getting too caught up in the "theoretical reality" (in the various "preferred aspects," models, versions, permutations, exoterics) of such an environment, intuitively preferring to, in effect, "see beyond appearances" or at least preferring to not close too many doors along the way, in whatever sense . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Leon, I wonder if your probabilizing, absolutizing and relativizing (not that those are your words, exactly, needles to say) might have the effect of hemming you in, might tend to block you from transcending toward experiential esoterics . . . On the other hand, your values are, of course, your values, and might be ("are"?) as relevant as you can make them, currently. But, by speculating about this and that, seems to me that one might transcend some apparent limits, in some way, maybe, occasionally, . . . PPS my symbol for a stumped guy scratching his head: ^:-) From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 06:33:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 14:33:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 81702 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 14:33:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 14:33:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 14:33:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 14:33:43 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 14:33:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Dr. Vernon Harrison on the Hodgson Report and the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 725 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Richard Hodgson spends dozens of pages in his 1885 SPR Report trying to prove that H.P. Blavatsky wrote the majority of the Mahatma Letters. Over the years various biographers and hostile critics have used Hodgson's opinion to besmear the character of Madame Blavatsky. I give a summary of Dr. Vernon Harrison's opinion of Hodgson's contentions as well as Dr. Harrison's summary of his own findings about the Mahatma Letters. See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-spr/hpbspr-o.htm Dr. Harrison is an examiner of questioned documents. His background and qualifications are listed at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-spr/hpbspr-h.htm#author Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 03 09:07:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 17:07:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 29082 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 17:07:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 17:07:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 17:07:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 17:07:38 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:07:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vernon Harrison on the Hodgson Report and the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2128 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.207.52.96 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Richard Hodgson spends dozens of pages in his 1885 SPR Report trying > to prove that H.P. Blavatsky wrote the majority of the Mahatma > Letters. Over the years various biographers and hostile critics have > used Hodgson's opinion to besmear the character of Madame Blavatsky. The fact that Hodgson badgered his witnesses and in fact held up publiccation of his report until he got them to say what he wanted tells us how objective he was. Had they not paid for him to take that junket of his to India the SPR probably would have refused to publish his report. That said, consider this: (1) Blavatsky herself said the majority of the letters were written not by mahatmas but by "amanuensis chelas." (2) Hodgson identified Blavatsky as one of the "amanuensis chelas" and Damodat as the other (3) The author of the Shannon letter, presumable himself a mahatma, admits that this is true of Blavatsky, and says that there was at least oe other before but that since 1885 she was the only one. (4) 1885 was the year Damodar disappeared, which implies that he was the other amanuensis chela, as Hodgson stated. (5) In the case of the Prayag letter Blavatsky did not even attempt to disguise her handwriting, but sent the letter out in her own recognizable handwriting. (6) Annie Besant admitted during the Judge Affair that Blavatsky disguised her handwriting to write the mahatma letters. Fortunately in this case we have sufficient facts that it is not reasonable to doubt Blavatsky wrote the mahatma letters. What is kin doubt is whether they were her own thoughts or whether she was telling the truth when she said they were the thoughts of some distant Tibetan sage and that she merely held the pen? That is a difficult question and one which would require an analysis of all the letters. One thing that is certain is that whereas she disguised her handwriting when writing the mahatma letters, she did not disguise her writing style. Recognizable as a thumbprint it was, and her thumb print is all over all pof them. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 09:59:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 17:59:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 14102 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 17:59:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 17:59:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 17:59:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 17:59:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:59:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian's/Brigitte's Latest Posting on Blavatsky and KH Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 408 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Readers may be interested in Brian's/Brigitte's latest posting on his/her web site: "Australians Are Rapidly Dying Out?" http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr.html Steve Stubbs has also contributed to this posting. I assume this material was included with his permission. I notice that Brian/Brigitte continues to include misleading and false statements in his/her editorial comments. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 10:15:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 18:15:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17328 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 18:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 18:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 18:15:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 18:15:43 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 18:15:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Can anyone make sense of this statement by "Brian"/"Brigitte"? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1606 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell "Brian"/"Brigitte" write: "Blavatsky claimed it was a 'Worldwide Brotherhood;' whoever wrote the Mahatma Letters apparently identified himself/herself with white 'Aryan' not even Indian. 'Mahatma K.H.' wrote to Sinnet in Colonial India: 'yourselves the white conquerors.'" "No Indian/'Thibetan'/or Oriental person in their right mind would write what these so called 'Mahatmas' wrote like 'The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity.' (Letter No. 23b by 'Koot Hoomi')" Quoted from: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr.html Can anyone make sense of the following statement? ". . . whoever wrote the Mahatma Letters apparently identified himself/herself with white 'Aryan' not even Indian." What evidence is Brian/Brigitte basing this statement on? What relevance, if any, does KH's words "yourselves the white conquerors" have to Brian's/Brigitte's assertion that the writer of the MLS "identified himself/herself with white 'Aryan'...."? I do not understand the reasoning behind such a statement? If anyone else does, please share your insights with us. Steve, do you understand the reasoning in this statement by Brian/Brigitte? Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 10:42:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 18:42:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 36207 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 18:42:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 18:42:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 18:42:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 18:42:10 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 18:42:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The S.S. Shannon Letter from Koot Hoomi Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5859 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below is most of the S.S. Shannon Letter written by Master Koot Hoomi to Henry S. Olcott. The letter was received by Colonel Olcott on August 22, 1888 on board the S.S. Shannon in the Mediterranean Sea. Olcott was on his way to London. Madame Blavatsky was living in London at this time. In Olcott's handwritten diary for the above date, I find the following notation: "Weather fine. Received in my cabin while dressing a [three dots here in the form of a triangle] letter of instructions." Daniel ---------------------------------------- Again, as you approach London I have a word or two to say to you. Your impressibility is so changeful that I must not wholly depend upon it at this critical time. Of course you know that things were so brought to a focus as to necessitate the present journey and that the inspiration to make it came to you and to permit it to the Councillors from without. Put all needed restraint upon your feelings, so that you may do the right thing in this Western imbroglio. Watch your first impressions. The mistakes you make spring from failure to do this. Let neither your personal predilections, affections, suspicions nor antipathies affect your action. Misunderstandings have grown up between Fellows both in London and Paris, which imperil the interests of the movement. You will be told that the chief originator of most, if not of all these disturbances is H. P. B. This is not so; though her presence in England has, of course, a share in them. But the largest share rests with others, whose serene unconsciousness of their own defects is very marked and much to be blamed. One of the most valuable effects of Upasika's mission is that it drives men to self-study and destroys in them blind servility for persons. Observe your own case, for example. But your revolt, good friend, against her infallibility -- as you once thought it -- has gone too far and you have been unjust to her, for which I am sorry to say, you will have to suffer hereafter along with others. JUST NOW, ON DECK, your thoughts about her were dark and sinful, and so I find the moment a fitting one to put you on your guard. Try to remove such misconceptions as you will find, by kind persuasion and an appeal to the feelings of loyalty to the Cause of truth if not to us. Make all these men feel that we have no favourites, nor affections for persons, but only for their good acts and humanity as a whole. But we employ agents -- the best available. Of these for the past thirty years the chief has been the personality known as H. P. B. to the world (but otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some, nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come -- and your theosophists should be made to understand it. Since 1885 I have not written, nor caused to be written save thro' her agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists should learn it. You will understand later the significance of this declaration so keep it in mind. Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associates will desert or supplant her. As I once before remarked, ingratitude is not among our vices. With yourself our relations are direct, and have been with the rare exceptions you know of, like the present, on the psychical plane, and so will continue thro' force of circumstances. That they are so rare - - is your own fault as I told you in my last. To help you in your present perplexity: H. P. B. has next to no concern with administrative details, and should be kept clear of them, so far as her strong nature can be controlled. But this you must tell to all: -- With occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her; she is not "given over to chelas." She is our direct agent. I warn you against permitting your suspicions and resentment against "her many follies" to bias your intuitive loyalty to her. In the adjustment of this European business, you will have two things to consider -- the external and administrative, and the internal and psychical. Keep the former under your control and that of your most prudent associates, jointly; leave the latter to her. You are left to devise the practical details with your usual ingenuity. Only be careful, I say, to discriminate when some emergent interference of hers in practical affairs is referred to you on appeal, between that which is merely exoteric in origin and effects, and that which beginning on the practical tends to beget consequences on the spiritual plane. As to the former you are the best judge, as to the latter, she. I have also noted, your thoughts about the "Secret Doctrine." Be assured that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . . You had better not mention for the present this letter to anyone -- not even to H.P.B. unless she speaks to you of it herself. Time enough when you see occasion arise. It is merely given you, as a warning and a guide; to others, as a warning only, for you may use it discreetly if needs be. -- K.H. -- Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 19, 5th edition. caps added. ------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-am/hpb-amh.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 11:26:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 19:26:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 57848 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 19:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 19:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 19:26:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 19:26:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:26:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Steve Stubbs & Vernon Harrison on Blavatsky & the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3998 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, Thank you for your comments on Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters but I find some of your statements questionable and dubious. For example, you summarize: "Fortunately in this case we have sufficient facts that it is not reasonable to doubt Blavatsky wrote the mahatma letters. What is kin [sic] doubt is whether they were her own thoughts or whether she was telling the truth when she said they were the thoughts of some distant Tibetan sage and that she merely held the pen? That is a difficult question and one which would require an analysis of all the letters. One thing that is certain is that whereas she disguised her handwriting when writing the mahatma letters, she did not disguise her writing style. Recognizable as a thumbprint it was, and her thumb print is all over all pof [sic]them." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8393 But inquiring readers should COMPARE and CONTRAST what you write above with what Dr. Vernon Harrison has written on the same subject. He writes the following in his capacity as a professional examiner of questioned documents "for the past twenty years". I quote several of Dr. Harrison's relevant statements from his book: "I have studied the Hodgson Report as a legal document and I have examined the said Mahatma Letters not only in the holographs preserved in the British Library but also in reproductions of the same prepared and supplied by the British Library in the form of a set of 1323 colour slides. I have examined microscopically each and every one of the 1323 slides found in a complete set, and wherever appropriate I have read the writing in a line-by-line scan at a magnification of x5O diameters." Elsewhere in his book, Harrison writes: ". . . I have found no evidence that the Mahatma Letters were written by Helena Blavatsky consciously and deliberately in a disguised form of her own handwriting developed over a period of several years, as claimed by Richard Hodgson. That is, I find no evidence of common origin between the KH, M, and HPB scripts. In any ordinary legal case I would regard them as different scripts and attribute them to different authors." ". . . If any of the KH and M scripts came through the hand of Madame Blavatsky while she was in a state of trance, sleep, or other altered states of consciouness known to psychologists and psychiatrists, KH and M might be considered sub-personalities of Helena Blavatsky. To what extent the sub-personalities are independent is a matter for debate; but in no case would conscious fraud or imposture be involved. Nor does this supposition circumvent the difficulty that there are KH letters which even Hodgson had to admit Madame Blavatsky could not possibly have written as she was too far away at the time and communications were bad." Furthermore, Harrison states: ". . . Who KH was I do not know, but I am of the opinion that all letters in the British Library initialed KH originated from him. The basic characteristics of his handwriting are present from first to last, but in the earliest letters in particular there are variations in and distortions of some of the characters. These variations do not bear the hallmark of the apprentice forger." "I am satisfied that the Mahatma Letters were not dictated to chelas who wrote them in their own handwriting. However, it is stated in the letters themselves that many of them were transmitted in KH's handwriting by chelas using 'precipitation' or what seems to be a human FAX process. If this suggestion is plausible, it could be that the chelas were having difficulty with the system at first, which had to be 'debugged.' Most of the 'debugging' must have been done within a fortnight." The above extracts quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-spr/hpbspr-h.htm Steve, I will deal with several other of your statements as time permits. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 03 12:11:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 20:11:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 9862 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 20:11:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 20:11:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 20:11:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 20:11:42 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 20:11:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Steve Stubbs & Vernon Harrison on Blavatsky & the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3322 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.207.52.32 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Thank you for your comments on Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters but > I find some of your statements questionable and dubious. Which comment is it that you find dubious? If you are saying that Hodgson dealt fairly with his handwriting "experts" (Gribble was no expert) then I would have to say you are wrong. Hodgson's behavior was disgraceful. Don't defend himl please. I do not disupute that Harrison examined the letters, but statements by K.H., Blavatsky, and Besant seem to me to have more force than his private opinions. > ". . . I have found no evidence that the Mahatma Letters were written > by Helena Blavatsky consciously and deliberately in a disguised form > of her own handwriting That she wrote them is admitted. What is at issue is the "consciously and deliberately" part. Was she a secretary taking dictation, or did she serve in some other capacity? It was not obvious at the time, but I think it would have been far better had she spelled out exactly what was the nature of her relationship to the purported authors of the letters for the purpose of letter production. Q.W. Judge wrote letters entirely in the KH script just to show he could do it and that it could be done. There is no question that he disguised his handwriting. > ". . . If any of the KH and M scripts came through the hand of Madame > Blavatsky while she was in a state of trance, sleep, or other altered > states of consciouness known to psychologists and psychiatrists, KH > and M might be considered sub-personalities of Helena Blavatsky. That was Yeats' theory. There is good reason believe they were real men, but there is a difficult problem determining whether and to what extent these real men were able to express themselves through the medium of the mahatma letters. Harrison's opinions seem to bear on this question. To > what extent the sub-personalities are independent is a matter for > debate; but in no case would conscious fraud or imposture be > involved. I agree. There are some alleging conscious fraud, but I am not one of them. Nor does this supposition circumvent the difficulty that > there are KH letters which even Hodgson had to admit Madame Blavatsky > could not possibly have written as she was too far away at the time > and communications were bad." Since Theosophical sources admit there were more than one amanuensis chela, this is not a difficulty. > "I am satisfied that the Mahatma Letters were not dictated to chelas > who wrote them in their own handwriting. However, it is stated in the > letters themselves that many of them were transmitted in KH's > handwriting by chelas using 'precipitation' or what seems to be a > human FAX process. The problem with that is that the letters also say precipitation was forbidden by the chohan. Some of them must have been producd by some other means if the mahatma letters themselves are to be believed. The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are good candidates for evidence that some letters were delivered by phenomenal means. It appears most of them were merely palmed off on someone, so that there were phenomenal and non-phenomenal deliveries, consistent with what the letters themselves say. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 03 12:16:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 20:16:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 78752 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 20:16:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 20:16:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 20:16:35 -0000 Received: from pool0070.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.70] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188RAf-0003Nc-00; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:16:33 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Punya Why "do good?" Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:12:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 3 2002 GOOD and BAD KARMA ( Pap and Puniya ) Why "do good ?" Dear Friends: I agree that MERIT seems to be closest to PUNIYA. This word has been used in theosophical literature. However if one broadens the scope to include FEELINGS, THOUGHTS, and DEEDS, then VIRTUE covers that as the instigator of our intent, motive and action. All the 3 GUNAS (qualities: SATTVA, RAJAS and TAMAS -- purity, action, inertia) are involved in any such action. This is made clear in Chapter 14. But of all actions, that which Sri Krishna recommends as the highest, are those which are formed "without expectation of results." "Therefore, at all times do that which thou hast to do at all times unmindful of results." "One must see that the SELF within (ATMA) is not the actor." Let me use the BHAGAVAD GITA, but not as a religious text, but as the recommendations that a dearly beloved and trusted friend might make to us at a time of difficulty, when we seek his advice. As a spiritual being Krishna is a "God" of the highest order. But as a "tutor" he can only advise Arjuna and leave him to make his own choices. As "the best of men: Arjuna," Krishna is the embodied self -- you and me, and all other humans everywhere. Since he "resides in the heart of all beings" this "God of a the highest order" resides interior to each of us. We, the embodied mind, (Kama-Manas), engaged in daily tasks and tests, have to deliberately refer to Him, within ourselves. Then strive to carry out the advice he offers. Action is assigned to the Mind or the rajasic quality. It (mind) lies midway between purity and selfishness. Therefore the "Mind" in all humans is dual. One side is united to Sattva ( or BUDDHI ), and the other side is united to Tamas (or KAMA ). Humanity and all thinking individuals represent a stage of Monadic development that is at the cross-roads between the involvement of spirit (the INTUITIVE -- or WISDOM-perceiving faculty) into matter, and the evolution of intelligent, instinctive matter that aspires to become "spiritual." We thus have a third class of beings: Ourselves, as mind endowed entities. We would have no guidance unless, as taught about 18 million years back, the great Rishis and Dhyanis had not come as illuminators, and "lit" the nascent minds of the races on men all over the Earth. We see this happening in our homes every time children are brought up, and they acquire the faculty of mind and the rudiments of moral perception from us, and what we do, and, one could add, they see our natures very clearly. If we are sly and selfish, they will acquire that faculty, thinking that we being older, know better. And similarly for the good qualities of generosity and thoughtfulness for others, Thus, We have in us the development of the Higher Mind and the Lower Mind. And yet we are well aware that there is in us a perceptive faculty that stands APART from either of these two extremes and weighs the value of the results which either types of action (vice or virtue) will being. Sri Krishna then instructs Arjuna, saying there is a third kind of knowledge which is impartial, and this he designates as SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE. Sri Krishna speaking to Arjuna addresses him in a later chapter in the BHAGAVAD GITA as: "O thou of equal mind." One should carefully read chapters 16 and 17 of the BHAGAVAD GITA as there one finds the most careful instructions to the devotee who has placed his heart on the path of discipline that leads to Krishna's SUPREME ABODE. The BHAGAVAD GITA says: We ought to do no action, or speak, or feel with our minds directed to a possible benefit to ourselves -- to the exclusion of all others. A "spiritual force" or "action" is one that is done because of duty (dharma), a natural necessity which we see, because we are attuned impartially to the whole of evolution, and not because the Lower Mind has craftily created a hope for some "good" result to come to us alone. The Buddha taught the same selflessness in attitude to his disciples. We might also say that all SACRED ACTIONS are puniya actions and make "good Karma." The word "sacrifice" is used here in the sense of "sacred" -- a gift to the HIGHEST IN THE UNIVERSE. In that there can be no expectation of a "reward." Note however in the BHAGAVAD GITA that Sri Krishna always gives Arjuna the right and the freedom to exercise his own judgment before he thinks and acts. Krishna gives reasons and arguments, but does not ENFORCE. This is the action of a "tutor." Krishna is said to reside in the innermost heart of ourselves as of all other beings. "I am the Ego seated in the hearts of ALL BEINGS." Either Sri Krishna is a true Avatar-Guru who came at the crucial time of the beginning of the kali-Yuga -- to serve all beings who would be involved in that opening cycle, as a guide for the whole long cycle of 432,000 years, and now for us, 5,000 years later, or all this is nonsense and not worth the time studying. The S D states that Sri Krishna died at midnight of February 3,102 BC, and the new cycle began at sunrise on the 18th. (SECRET DOCTRINE I 650, 662-3, S D II 140, 147, 300, 527, 550) Best wishes, Dallas ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: Gopi Chari [mailto:ekcvv@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 4:42 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: Punya Dear Dallas and Larry, Most of us from Indian culture translate, either rightly or wrongly, 'deliberate harm' as Sin in the Christian sense. In that context, is there any single word for 'deliberate compassion' ? Until now the word Larry came up with 'Merit' comes closest in context with the Wages. I am wondering if there is an exact translation? Thank you Gopi --- You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-6660817A@lists.lyris.net From wry1111@earthlink.net Sun Nov 03 12:18:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 20:18:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 48316 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 20:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from 1cust86.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.86] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188RCf-0007O4-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:18:37 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01c28376$89318a20$56d30b3f@idapingala> To: Subject: re .Buddhismi Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:21:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. As most people here know, I have taken Buddhist teachings for many years and am still doing so. Buddhism is an exquisitely DESIGNED religion and it is hard to talk about it or understand it without studying it first. I see some of what you are saying, Leon. about Buddhism, as inaccurate and also some of what Jerry is saying as inaccurate. Jerry, I believe you are approaching Buddhism from a perspective that is NOT well-rounded, as you have stated on theos-l that you do not take the The Three Jewels, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, to be important in that you do not believe in the value of Sangha (community). The Three Jewels are the very FOUNDATION of Mahanyana Buddhism, and one does not pluck out one or the other of The Three Jewels according to his taste. Without an understanding of The Three Jewels, any teaching or even discussion of Buddhism will be skewed. I am not sure if you are doing more harm than good or more good than harm, as it is very hard to sort out, and I may not have developed to this level of discrimination, but I will opt for the former, as you are building up a kind of resistance in people toward Buddhism that would be considered detrimental, as you are giving so called "Buddhist" teachings when your understanding is not complete enough to present this material in a way that is well-rounded, though I know you have a good heart and your intentions are sincere and of an altruistic motivation. Leon, in Mahayana Buddhism, there is not an effort to understand "the 'root' of Consciousness" or "the root of matter," as you have put it, as this would lead to an extreme, which is called "eternalism," which would be contradictory to the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism, which is to act from a middle ground in such a way that as to relieve the suffering of sentient beings by generating great compassion (boddhichitta) which is considered the antidote to the sufferings of sentient beings. It is hard to understand the incredible force of "great compassion" unless one has come into contact with it, and it is my understanding that most people have not experienced the power of this kind and quality of compassion, but just that of the "baby" boddhichitta (conventional compassion). Leon, re. your statement about Buddha: "His purpose was to instill the value of detachment from the forms of matter in his disciples and the recognition that each individual, as an apparently separate conscious being was, in fact, unchanging and in essential oneness or unity with the primal source of all consciousness." This is NOT Buddhism. The teaching of Buddhism is that everything is changing and that there is NOT a "primal source of all consciousness." This is a KEY teaching of Buddhism, in that the whole religion is based on it. Mauri, there are three main parts of you (or me): mind, heart and body. Intellectual speculation is not the same as enquiiry. Enquiry leads to a shedding of or release from material through realizing that ones view is wrong in that it is not aligned with the true nature of physical reality. When one realizes the wrongness of ones view, one lets go and is closer to physical reality, or what some on this list have called "esoteric." If you want to enquire, and I believe you do, I suggest you study yourself until you find your own question and then present that question, in a few plain and simple words, to others, and try to start a discussion. You are trying to fit your questions into a certain framework (such as that of Theosophy), but the answer to your question may obliterate certain frameworks. This is what questioning is about. If you keep phrasing a question in such a way that you need to assume certain theory as a BASE or a given in order to answer said question, you may never get an answer that is true, as this effectively puts you in a double bind, which is not a proper intellectual approach. But there is more: you are a person without a practice. In some ways, this is smart, and even sly, as it keeps you pure as a new born baby and unpolluted. You may never find a practice, but if your wait is patient enough, it may begin to function as a magnet, whereas once you are ruined by various kinds of wrong practice, no matter how benign they may seem, your functioning may be imprinted in such a way that certain essential material will not be attracted to you, and visa-versa. What you have said in the past about going slow, I personally agree with. This is one virtue about you. You are slow, steady and methodical, and you do not seem to quit. Try to be aware of your physical body as a moving object as it walks down the street. In my opinion, being attentive as you perform simple motor functions such as gardening or sweeping a floor, will bring you down to earth. Earth has its own speed(s). In a way, things are slower. A reaction is ONE-SIDED and so fast. A person has a strong feeling and pulls out a gun. Bang. Bang. It is over. He spends the rest of his life in jail. Or the sweeper daydreams he is telling his thoughts to someone important or being important by telling his thoughts. I know. I have been and sometimes still am that sweeper. But when something is attentive to myself AS I AM, simply sweeping, this is a beginning, small and slow, that is actually FASTER. If you and I can make a simple effort with both a top and a bottom, we can help many people, but this effort also needs a middle. When you struggle against your grain to understand something in a way which is not mechanical, you are helping me to make an effort to do the same. This is the heart of true spiritual Work. When I write you this message, it is helping me to remember to be attentive as I sweep. This is the beginning of community. But if we do not keep it SIMPLE and progress slowly, step by step, we will not develop a certain quality, without which we cannot go any further. Sincerely, Wry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 03 12:32:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 20:32:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 33673 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 20:32:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 20:32:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 20:32:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 20:32:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 20:32:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The S.S. Shannon Letter from Koot Hoomi Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1184 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.207.52.32 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: [Quotung the Shannon letter:] Since 1885 I have > not written, nor caused to be written save thro' her agency, direct > or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor > communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists > should learn it. This passage clearly states (1) that Blavatsky was one of the amanuensis chelas who are elsewhere mentioned but not elsewhere named, and (2) that after 1885 she was the only one. It implies that in 1885 and before there was another or others, as stated elsewhere. 1885 was the year Damodar disappeared, which suggests Hodgson was right and Damodar was the other amanuensis chela in addition to Blavatsky. Anti-theosophists are unwilling to admit that he went, or tried to go, to Tibet, because that blows Hodgson's claim that he was a confederate. You will understand later the significance of this > declaration so keep it in mind. Accoring ti an artivcle in Theosophy there aere seven different people claiming to be channeling KH letters so it is not clear (to me) to whom this passage refers. Possibly to all of them. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 14:04:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 22:04:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 43273 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 22:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 22:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 22:04:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 22:04:38 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:04:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: H.P. Blavatsky "precipitates" a letter -- she did NOT "write" it . . . . Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4062 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve,=20 You stated that: "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are good candidates for=20 evidence that some letters were delivered by phenomenal means." Yes I agree with your statement. Keep in mind also the following. Below is an example of how Madame Blavatsky "created"=20 or "precipitated" handwriting on a blank page. Notice that if we=20 take the account at face value, she did NOT physically "write" the=20 letter with pen or pencil in the conventional manner. Daniel -----------------------------------------------------=20 Henry S. Olcott=20 June 19, 1882=20 Baroda, India In June 1882, H.P.B. and I accepted an invitation to visit Baroda,=20 the flourishing capital of H. H. the Gaikwar. Judge Gadgil and other=20 high officials met us at the station, and took us to a bungalow=20 adjoining the new and splendid palace. We had many visitors [and] our=20 reception room was] crowded with inquirers day and evening. I had been out to see the Gaikwar, and on my return found [Mr.]=20 Kirtane and [Judge] Gadgil standing at the threshold of H.P.B.'s open=20 door, while she was in the middle of the room with her back towards=20 us. Our two friends told me not to step inside, as Madame B. was=20 doing a phenomenon and had just turned them out on the verandah where=20 I found them. The next minute she came towards us, and, taking a=20 sheet of paper from the table, told the gentleman to mark it for=20 identification. Receiving it back, she said: "Now turn me in the=20 direction of his residence." They did so. She then laid the paper=20 between her palms (held horizontally), remained quiet a moment, then=20 held it towards us and went and sat down. Cries of amazement broke=20 from the two on seeing on the just before clean sheet of paper, a=20 letter addressed to me in the handwriting and bearing the signature=20 of the then British Resident at that Court. It was a most peculiar,=20 small calligraphy, and the signature more like a tiny tangle of twine=20 than a man's name. They then told me the story. It seems that they were asking H.P.B. to=20 explain the scientific rationale of the process of precipitating upon=20 paper, cloth, or any other surface, a picture or writing, then=20 invisible to the onlooker, and without the help of ink, paints,=20 pencils, or other mechanical agents. She told them that inasmuch as=20 the images of all objects and incidents are stored in the Astral=20 Light, it did not require that she should have seen the person or=20 known the writing, the image of which she wished to precipitate; she=20 had only to be put on the trace and could find and see them for=20 herself and then objectivate them. They urgently begged her to do the=20 thing for them. "Well, then," she finally said, "tell me the name of=20 some man or woman most unfriendly to the Theosophical Society, one=20 whom neither Olcott nor I could have ever known." At once, they=20 mentioned Mr . . . . the British Resident, who held us and our=20 Society in especial hatred, who never missed the chance of saying=20 unkind things of us, and who had prevented the Gaikwar from inviting=20 HPB and myself to his enthronement, as he had otherwise intended, on=20 the suggestion of Judge Gadgil. They thought this a poser. That it=20 was not, the sequel proved. I thought they would explode with laughter when they read the=20 contents of the note. It was addressed to "My dear Colonel Olcott,"=20 begged my pardon for the malicious things he had said against us and=20 said he wished to become a member of the Theosophical Society; it was=20 signed "Yours sincerely" and with his name. She had never seen a line=20 of the gentleman's writing nor his signature, never met him in the=20 flesh, and the note was precipitated on that sheet of paper, held=20 between her hands, as she stood in the middle of the room, in broad=20 daylight, with us three witnesses looking on. [Source: Olcott, Henry. OLD DIARY LEAVES, Volume II, pp. 363=967. =20 The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but=20 some material has been silently deleted. Explanatory words added by=20 the editor are enclosed within brackets.] =20=20=20=20 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 14:14:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 22:14:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 19848 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 22:14:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 22:14:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 22:14:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 22:14:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:14:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Handwriting "precipitated" in HPB's presence Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1340 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell William Q. Judge 1870s New York City=20 ----------------------------------------------------------- I was one day, about four o'clock, reading a book that had just been=20 brought in by a friend of Colonel Olcott. I was sitting some six feet=20 distance from H. P. Blavatsky, who was busy writing. I had carefully=20 read the title page of the book, but had forgotten the exact title.=20 But I knew that there was not one word of writing upon it. As I began=20 to read the first paragraph, I heard a bell sound in the air and,=20 looking, saw that Mme. Blavatsky was intently regarding me. "What book do you read?" said she. Turning back to the title page, I was about to read aloud the name,=20 when my eye was arrested by a message written in ink across the top=20 of the page, which, a few minutes before, I had looked at and found=20 clean. It was a message in about seven lines, and the fluid had not=20 yet quite dried on the page =97 its contents were a warning about the book. I am positive that when I took the volume in my hand not=20 one word was written in it. ------------------------------------------------- [Source: Judge, W.Q. Quoted in A.P. Sinnett's "Incidents in the=20 Life of Madame Blavatsky", 1886 ed, pp. 186 et seq. The above=20 extracts have been transcribed from the original source but some=20 material has been silently deleted.] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 14:23:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 96774 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:23:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A Precipitation Experiment Made by HPB Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2925 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Henry S. Olcott Early 1875 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania=20 An experiment [was] made by HPB, with myself as a passive agent after=20 my coming to her house in Philadelphia. She was tipping tables for=20 me, with and without the contact between her hands and the table,=20 making loud and tiny raps=97sometimes while holding her hand six inches above the wood and sometimes while resting her hand upon mine=20 as it lay flat upon the table=97and spelling out messages to me from the pretended John King, which, as rapped out by the alphabet, I=20 recorded on scraps of paper. At last some of these messages relating=20 to third parties seemed worth keeping, so one day, on my way home, I=20 bought a reporter's notebook, and, on getting to the house, showed it=20 to her and explained its intended use. She was seated at the time and=20 I standing. Without touching the book or making any mystical pass or=20 sign, she told me to put it in my bosom. I did so, and after a=20 moment's pause she bade me take it out and look within. This is what=20 I found inside the first cover, written and drawn on the white lining=20 paper in lead pencil: JOHN KING, HENRY DE MORGAN, his book. 4th of the Fourth month in A.D. 1875. Underneath this, the drawing of a Rosicrucian jewel; over the arch of=20 the jeweled crown, the word FATE; beneath which is her name, "Helen,"=20 followed by what looks like 99, something smudged out, and then a=20 simple + [etc]. I have the book on my table as I write, and my=20 description is taken from the drawing itself. One striking feature of=20 this example of psycho-dynamics is the fact that no one but myself=20 had touched the book after it was purchased; I had had it in my=20 pocket until it was shown to HPB, from the distance of two or three=20 feet, had myself held it in my bosom, removed it a moment later when=20 bidden, and the precipitation of the lead-pencil writing and drawing=20 had been done while the book was inside my waistcoat. Now the writing=20 inside the cover of the book is very peculiar. It is a quaint and=20 quite individual handwriting, not like HPB's, but identical with that=20 in all the written messages I had from first to last from "John=20 King." HPB having, then, the power of precipitation, must have=20 transferred from her mind to the paper the images of words traced in=20 this special style of script; or, if not she, but some other expert=20 in this art did it, then that other person must have done it in that=20 same way=97i.e., have first pictured to himself mentally the images of those words and that drawing, and then precipitated, that is, made=20 them visible on the paper, as though written with a lead pencil. ------------------------------------------------ [Source: Olcott, Henry. OLD DIARY LEAVES, Volume I, pp. 40=962.=20 The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but=20 some material has been silently deleted. Explanatory words added by=20 the editor are enclosed within brackets.] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 03 14:39:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 22:39:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 65160 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 22:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 22:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 22:39:07 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 88BAA5EE8CB for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:39:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c28389$232ff960$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter" and Bailey again... Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:34:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Thanks for your answer Daniel. Now follows a long answering email. But one with content for sure. My answers to Daniels below comments - and - my views are: 1. *No. The prevoius email on the Mahatma letter was not that unique. I certainly agree on that.* 2. Daniel wrote in the below: "In each and every case including yours oo --- these students are > apparently assuming they know what the real teaching is all about or > that they have a better conception of what a real Master would write > or not write. Therefore they conclude that because this or that > Mahatma Letter does not live up to their "standard" therefore there > must be something wrong with the letter." My Sufilight answer: *Daniel - I think this is wrong. I did clearly NOT put out, that I had a BETTER conception of what a real master would write. Is it necessary to do that ?* 3. *According to me reincarnation is a possible event for some people. Prove me wrong if you can.* 4. Daniel wrote in the below: "Of course this is possible but when reviewing ALL of the various > objections one might conclude that there is hardly a theosophical > teaching found in the Mahatma Letters that some student does not > dispute. > > Therefore, should we conclude that all the letters are "faked" > or "distorted"? " My Sufilight answer: *Daniel I agree that we can go on arguing on what is fake or not fake. That was also what my last email stated. It is always possible to raise a voice of opposition on this dualistic level of "consciuosness".* 5. Daniel wrote in the below: "Morten, you view ML 23-b as somehow "faked" but do you accept ML #10 > or #134? You may think these two letters are genuine but there are > students who disagree. Who is right?" My Sufilight answer: *But will a simple answer to the above with a yes or a no have any real importance ? I don't really think so. The real importance is where PEACE can be acheived on this PLANET and --- right now. All right: ML 10 and 134 are by me considered more helpfull than 'harmless' - i.e. for the moment that is.... Fake ? I would'nt use that word on those (now public!) letters - at the moment - even if it was true... 6. Daniel wrote in the below: "Concerning ML23-b, you write that it contains " 'careless' - remarks on races and sub-races." But are the remarks actually careless? I don't find the remarks to be "careless" when you view them in the context of all of the theosophical teachings. " My Sufilight answer: *Yes Daniel. But if you read that particular letter ML23b - with a dead-letter attitude, - The word RACISM for some quite easily comes to mind. That is the trouble with the letter! I claim: That the letter ML23b as such was written by a Mahatma to a certain group of people, at a certain time, and not to a group in the present, year 2002, who are not particularily cleverminded persons - who read the Mahatam Letter - by the dead-letter manner. (Well I know, I know: ... I can claim what I want....>:-), I guess). Time has sort of changed the letters content - and the importance of racism as such is today higher than it was then. The ordinary reader of today would for sure read the ML23b different than a reader from year 1882 would. The ML23b is fake in the sense, that no true Master would TODAY write such a letter and make it publicly known ! Past papers and pas books are nearly always only recommended to a PAST audience by the true Master. --- I suggest, this: Let us be more concerned with the present hour of turmoil, pump and circumstance, than these past events.* 7. My assumptions are as good as anyone elses. That is true. Right ? >:-) Laughs... 8. Daniel wrote in the below: "Master KH never claimed to be all-knowing or infallible. He says this more than once in the MLs. Yet you are assuming he should have looked into the future, saw..., etc. etc." My Sufilight answer: *No Daniel. I am not only assuming that he/she should have looked that far ahead into the future. I state this as a clear fact while following my own knowledge about the Masters. The details could maybe not be forseen. But the issue of "RACISM" would be a easy one - to a Master that is. Well you are also free to call that an assumption if you want to !* 9. Daniel wrote in the below: "But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or somehow faked?" My Sufilight answer: *Yes and no. The situation differs because Blavatsky was writing a book, and because she was the person/soul she was, and because A. P. Sinnnett was the person/soul he was. And let us remember, that some still hold it to be true that some of the Mahatma Letters was transferred via some of the CHELAS. And Chelas make mistakes.* 10. Daniel wrote in the below: "Morten, you also mention Mr. Leadbeater: ". . . C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his book - 'Man Whence how and Whither' " I am somewhat surprised by your use of the words: CLEARLY FAKE." My Sufilight answer: *Yes Daniel. I deeply regret that. I guess, that I maybe should have been more informative there. But NOW you gave me the possibility to do just that. (And that was believe it or not - quite forseeable.) According to my memory CWL was a priest, who became a Theosophist, and then became a sort of a priest again. That tells me something. And the unfortunate rumors about CWL being involved in a childrens Sexscandal. That also tells me something. Be let us not use prejudice here. CWL is because of his life as such a so-called HOT POTATO theosophically speaking - and while debating on the Wisdom Teachings. (Well some people like HOT potatos very much! >:-). Did CWL ever use the so-called 7 keys ? Did he counteract blind faith ? In his book 'Man Whence how and Whither' , which A. Besant is said to be co-author of, he states according to my memory, that he and other theosophists - of 'high rank' was to reincarnate in USA to start up the 6th subrace of the 5th rootrace. This is CLEARLY FAKE ! Well... to me and according to my ESP readings. (But that is of course put out as an assumption... >:-))* 11. As far as I remember. You - Daniel Caldwell - havn't answered my email on Nicholas Weeks anti-Bailey article "Theosophys Shadow" yet. The email was presented here at theos-talk at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8078 (I know I didn't question you directly. But, I find that SILENCE talks, because you didn't answer the email.) The email was an answer to the following email by you Daniel: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8074 (Later but very related postings on the Nicholas Weeks article, (an article you are presenting on your website), was for instance: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8132 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8126) Try read it all, it could be a good idea. Think or meditate it through as you want. We could call it: The Bailey connection. 12. Daniel wrote in the below: "But if this question was answered, could this in anyway change your mind that Mahatma Letter #23b was faked? Would knowing the exact year in anyway confirm or falsify your assumption about this letter?" My Sufilight answer: *But Daniel maybe I didn't really want an answer to that question. Maybe I wanted the readers to THINK. To THINK is here to develop your inner organ - i.e. to merge with your inner being. The person who first made the Mahatma Letter - ML23b public was maybe a racist or just stupid...because of the misunderstandings it created and creates.* *It would be better if Theosophical groups had a more CLEAR stance on the issues of RACES, Root-races, Sub-races - and the awfull issue RACISM. Well couldn't some of you do an effort here ?? Please...?* --- It is here I think that Brian are doing an (maybe unconscious) effort. --- Who is a "decoy" ? Or maybe better what is it ? And please do feel free to remember to use 'the 7 keys' mentioned by Blavatsky while reading emails like this... >:-) Feel absolutely free to be spiritually developed... Come on you can do it: Be happy ! from M. Sufilight with Krishna and Arjuna by my side...and a sweet email... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter" > Dear Morten Nymann Olesen, > > I am responding to your email posted at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8375 > > You write: > > "Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter [ML > 23b] . . . ." > > This view is not really that unique. I have a whole file of letters > and emails from various Theosophical students over the years who have > proposed similar explanations about other Mahatma letters. > > But this is the first time I have heard anyone question this > particular letter > ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm ). > > For example, some readers and students have suggested that some of > the teachings about life after death as found in Koot Hoomi's letters > could NOT have originated with the real Master. They suggest that > HPB or some chela or even some dugpa must have added their two cents > worth and therefore distorted the REAL teaching of the Master about > various aspects of life after death. > > Or take Letter # 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > A number of students of the MLs believe that much of what is > in this letter does not orginate with the real Master KH. HPB or > somebody else must have distorted the message in the letter. > > The same for ML #134 where we find a message from M: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > Or several Theosophical students who don't believe in reincarnation > therefore have questioned the teaching of reincarnation as found in > the MLs. > > I could cite other examples. > > In each and every case including yours too --- these students are > apparently assuming they know what the real teaching is all about or > that they have a better conception of what a real Master would write > or not write. Therefore they conclude that because this or that > Mahatma Letter does not live up to their "standard" therefore there > must be something wrong with the letter. > > Of course this is possible but when reviewing ALL of the various > objections one might conclude that there is hardly a theosophical > teaching found in the Mahatma Letters that some student does not > dispute. > > Therefore, should we conclude that all the letters are "faked" > or "distorted"? > > Morten, you view ML 23-b as somehow "faked" but do you accept ML #10 > or #134? You may think these two letters are genuine but there are > students who disagree. Who is right? > > Concerning ML23-b, you write that it contains " 'careless' - remarks > on races and sub-races." But are the remarks actually careless? > > I don't find the remarks to be "careless" when you view them in the > context of all of the theosophical teachings. > > Again, you write: > > "A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen > these - racist - tendencies, issues and historical events AND > secured - either - that the letter wasn't made public - so no > misunderstandings would have ar(a)isen . . . . - or the Master would > have known that the letter would be made into a forgery - and then > rested in peace !" > > But the point Morten is: is your assumption really true? You are > entitled to entertain this opinion but is your assumption the only > valid one? > > Master KH never claimed to be all-knowing or infallible. He says > this more than once in the MLs. Yet you are assuming he should have > looked into the future, saw..., etc. etc. > > You also write: > > "The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this letter being a > fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow this to > happen." > > Okay, I guess this is one possibility if you make and accept 3 or 4 > related assumptions. > > But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to > what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could > not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or > somehow faked? > > Morten, you also mention Mr. Leadbeater: > > ". . . C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his > book - 'Man Whence how and Whither' " > > I am somewhat surprised by your use of the words: CLEARLY FAKE. > > What happened to your admonitions to use the "the '7 keys'" and > use "a spiritual sense of mind"? If Nicholas Weeks wrote something > like that about Alice Bailey, I can imagine you would write a few > emails protesting his "literalness". But you seem to have no problem > labelling something Leadbeater wrote as CLEARLY FAKE. Strange..... > > Then back to your question: > > "Do you know what the exact year was when this letter first was made > public - for real ?" > > But if this question was answered, could this in anyway change your > mind that Mahatma Letter #23b was faked? Would knowing the exact > year in anyway confirm or falsify your assumption about this letter? > > Daniel > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 03 15:10:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 3 Nov 2002 23:10:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 62621 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2002 23:10:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2002 23:10:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2002 23:10:16 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188Tsl-0001Kd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 15:10:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3DC5ACFC.6CA52197@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 18:10:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Dr. Vernon Harrison on the Hodgson Report and the Mahatma Letters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > letters. One thing that is certain is that whereas she disguised her > handwriting when writing the mahatma letters, When Hodgson took "samples" of Blavatsky's handwriting and Mahatma Letters to a handwriting analyst, it appears that they were not originals; they were copies that Hodgson made himself. No wonder his analyst said they came from the same person. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 03 17:25:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 01:25:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 78469 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 01:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 01:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Dr. Vernon Harrison on the Hodgson Report and the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DC5ACFC.6CA52197@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 755 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > When Hodgson took "samples" of Blavatsky's handwriting and Mahatma > Letters to a handwriting analyst, it appears that they were not > originals; they were copies that Hodgson made himself. No wonder his > analyst said they came from the same person. The "experts" (one of whom was not an expert by any standard of assessment) were badgered by Hodgson into making those statements. It was Besant who said Blavatsky disguised her handwriting for mahatma letters. In the case of the Prayah letter she did not disguie her handwriting, but sent it out in her own script. In that case, as in others, the content of the letter is supposed to have been that of the mahatma, and not hers. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 17:33:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 01:33:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 70634 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 01:33:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 01:33:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 01:33:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 01:33:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 01:33:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bart's Latest Statement Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DC5ACFC.6CA52197@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2389 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bart, you wrote: "When Hodgson took 'samples' of Blavatsky's handwriting and Mahatma Letters to a handwriting analyst, it appears that they were not originals; they were copies that Hodgson made himself. No wonder his analyst said they came from the same person." Bart, as far as I can ascertain, your statement is wrong and somehow you have been misinformed. Both Netherclift and Sims saw and examined the originals of certain Mahatma as well as certain Blavatsky letters. For example, on pp. 282-283 of Hodgson's Report, we find Hodgson writing as follows: "With the incriminating Blavatsky-Coulomb letters which were submitted to Mr. Netherclift, were also submitted some specimens of the K.H. writing, viz., several small slips which were forwarded from India with the Blavatsky-Coulomb letters proper, a K.H. document in blue ink submitted by Mr. Massey, and a K.H. document in blue pencil sumbitted by Mr. Myers. Mr. Netherclift, in the first instance, came to the conclusion that these K.H. documents were not written by Madame Blavatsky. . . . In the meantime we had obtained from Mr. Sinnett eight specimens of the K.H. writing, which represented, some of them at least, consecutive periods of time, beginning with the earliest letter received by Mr. Sinnett. . . . I therefore re- submitted to him the K.H. writings belonging to Messrs. Massey and Myers, which we still had in our possession, together with the series forwarded by Mr. Sinnett. . . .The result was that Mr. Netherclift came to the conclusion that the whole of these documents were without doubt written by Madame Blavatsky. Mr. Sims, of the British Museum, similarly changed his opinion after inspection of the documents furnished by Mr. Sinnett." Further down page 283, Hodgson again writes about ". . . the series of K.H. Letters lent by Mr. Sinnett. . . " As far as I can tell, we are dealing with the originals LENT by Massey, Myers and Sinnett. All three of these gentlemen lived in England. The same can be said of the relevant Blavatsky letters. Netherclift and Sims saw and examined the originals. It is true, I believe, that the reproductions of the Blavatsky and Mahatma letters in the 2 Plates in the Hodgson Report were traced from the originals. I would have to verify that statement to be 100% certain. This will have to suffice for now. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 18:27:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 02:27:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 31618 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 02:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 02:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 02:27:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 02:27:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 02:27:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Another Example of Precipitation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1873 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Henry S. Olcott Simla, India October 4, 1880. ------------------------------------------------------------- Then Major Henderson asked her [Madame Blavatsky] to explain the science of it, but she said she could not, as he was not yet a Theosophist. He said he meant to be one. "When?" said she. "To- morrow" he replied. Mrs. Sinnett said "Why not today?" "So I will" said the Major; "come Madame, produce me a diploma on the spot!" "If I do, will you really join us?" "I will." "Then you shall have it." She looked here and there and walked about near us for a few moments, then sat down on the edge of a little bank. "If you want the diploma, you must hunt for it yourself; the 'Brother' who is helping me says it is rolled up tied with about 50 feet of blue twine and covered with creeping vines," she said to the Major. The party all went to searching and presently Major Henderson, raising the low branches of a deodar shrub and parting the grass said "I have it!" He really had - one of our diplomas filled out to Major Philip D. Henderson as Corresponding Fellow, and an official letter on my Headquarters letter-paper, WRITTEN IN MY OWN HANDWRITING and signed "Faithfully yours (the name in Tibetan characters [that is, the name of the 'Brother' helping HPB --- dhc] for H. S. Olcott, President of the Theosophical Society." Fancy my astonishment! The letter was dated October 2/3 - that is at the point (or night between the two days and it referred to a conversation that had taken place between Major Henderson and Madame Blavatsky on the preceding evening. --------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcott01.htm Notice that it was Mr. Henderson himself who said: "Come Madame, produce me a diploma on the spot!" And she did!! Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 18:42:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 02:42:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 80864 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 02:42:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 02:42:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 02:42:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 02:42:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 02:42:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A Koot Hoomi Letter for Damodar brought by Master Morya in his Apparitional Form Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3010 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: A Koot Hoomi Letter for Damodar brought by Master Morya in his Apparitional Form Damodar K. Mavalankar April 19, 1883. Adyar, Madras, India, ------------------------------------------------ Last night was a memorable one. As usual, Narasimhalu Chetty and myself were seated on a chair quite close to Mme. Blavatsky's bed, fanning her and talking together, so as gradually to induce sleep in her. . . . Suddenly Mme. B. gave a start and exclaimed, "I feel Him." She enjoined on us strictly not to leave our places, nor to get excited, but remain where we were, without moving an inch, one way or the other, and be perfectly calm and quiet. Suddenly she asked for our hands and the right hand of each of us was held by her. Hardly two minutes had elapsed since then, and we saw Him coming from the screen-door of Mme. B.'s bed-room and approaching her. The door is perfectly movable and in an open place, as we ourselves moved it immediately afterwards for more air. His manner of walking was so gentle that not a footstep, not the slightest sound, was audible; nor did He appear to move, by His gestures. It was only the change of position that made us see He had come nearer and nearer. He stood exactly opposite Mme. B. - not quite an arm's length from us. We were on this side of the bed; He on the other. You know I have seen Him often enough to enable me to recognise Him at once. He then bent over the bed . . . . His usual long white coat, the peculiar Pagri as in the portrait you have, long black hair flowing over the broad shoulders, and long beard - were as usual striking and picturesque. He was standing near a door the shutters of which were open. Through these the lamp-light, and through the windows which were all open, the moonlight, were full upon Him. And we being in the dark, i.e., having no light on our eyes - we being turned against the windows through which the moonlight came - could see distinctly and clearly. He held and put His hands twice over Mme. B.'s head. She then stretched out her hand which passed through His - a fact proving that what we saw was a Mayavi Rupa, although so vivid and clear as to give one the impression of a material physical body. She immediately took the letter from His hands. It crumpled, as it were, and made a sound. He then waved His hands towards us, walked a few steps, inaudibly and imperceptibly as before, and disappeared! . . . Mme. B. then handed the letter to me, as it was intended for me. It was addressed, To my revered Master. On the envelope were the words, "Through favour of M," meaning of course that your venerated Guru was kind enough to bring it in person. Inside were instructions from my revered Guru [Koot Hoomi] how to answer it. Never shall I forget last night's experience; So clear, vivid and tangible it was! ------------------------------ Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mavalankarletter83.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 18:58:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 02:58:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 86193 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 02:58:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 02:58:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 02:58:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 02:58:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 02:58:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Djual K. appears to HPB on board ship & precipitates KH Letter for A.P. Sinnett Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1691 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: Djual K. appears to HPB on board ship & precipitates K.H. Letter for A.P. Sinnett Below are excerpts from a letter to A.P. Sinnett from H.P. Blavatsky. ------------------------------------------------------- [Steamship] Clan Drummond: Algiers. Sunday [November] 8th. [1884] My dear Mr. Sinnett, . . . Last night as we were hopelessly tossed about and pitched in our Clan wash-tub Djual K. put in an appearance and asked in his Master's name if I would send you a chit. I said I would. He then asked me to prepare some paper -- which I had not. He then said any would do. I then proceeded to ask some from a passenger. . . . Lo! I wish those passengers, who quarrel with us every day about the possibility of phenomena could see what was taking place in my cabin on the foot of my berth! How D.K.'s hand, as real as life, was impressing the letter at his Master's dictation which came out in relief between the wall and my legs. He told me to read the letter but I am no wiser for it. . . . Had not Master [K.H.] brought about the explanation [in the letter precipitated] I would have gone away leaving a nice memory of myself in Mrs. Sinnett's and your hearts. . . . The steamer is a rolling wash-tub and the steward an infamy. We are all starving, and live upon our own tea and biscuits. Do write a word to Port Said, poste restante. We shall remain in Egypt perhaps a fortnight. . . . Can't write for the rolling. Love to all. Yours ever truly H. P. Blavatsky. -------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-137.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 19:08:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 03:08:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 18550 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 03:08:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 03:08:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 03:08:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 03:08:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 03:08:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Precipitation of Mahatma Letter Witnessed by Mohini M. Chatterji Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1142 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mohini M. Chatterji December 3rd, 1884 ---------------------------------------------------------- At Bombay, in 1882, I witnessed a most remarkable instance of materialisation of letter. I was in a room with Mr. Damodar and two other friends. Two or three feet from us Mr. Damodar was writing at a table; we were otherwise engaged. Mr. Damodar suddenly called out to us. We went up to the table, and saw a letter in the process of materialisation; it seemed to grow. First was seen a small bit, which expanded until an envelope was fully formed. It was addressed to one of us in the familiar handwriting of a Mahatma. The addressee took it up, and found there were in reality two letters, but so closely pressed together as to be easily mistaken for one. In fact, he was not sure that the second letter, which was to me, did not form itself in his hand. It is to be stated that Madame Blavatsky was not in the room at the time of this occurrence. ------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/app42.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 03 19:22:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 03:22:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 43837 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 03:22:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 03:22:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 03:22:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 03:22:30 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 03:22:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1492 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell C. W. Leadbeater October 31, 1884 London ---------------------------------------------------------- Even at that hour a number of devoted friends were gathered in Mrs. Oakley's drawing room to say farewell to Madame Blavatsky, who seated herself in an easy chair by the fireside. She was talking brilliantly to those who were present, and rolling one of her eternal cigarettes, when suddenly her right hand was jerked out towards the fire in a very peculiar fashion, and lay palm upwards. She looked down at it in surprise, as I did myself, for I was standing close to her, leaning with an elbow on the mantelpiece; and several of us saw quite clearly a sort of whitish mist form in the palm of her hand and then condense into a piece of folded paper, which she at once handed to me, saying "There is your answer." Every one in the room crowded round, of course, but she sent me away outside to read it, saying that I must not let anyone see its contents. It was a very short note. ------------------------------------------------------------- [Quoted from: Leadbeater, C. W. How Theosophy Came to Me. Adyar, Madras, India: Theosophical Publishing House, 1930, reprint 1948, pp. 61-62.] An excellent facsimile of this note from Koot Hoomi precipitated in Madame Blavatsky's palm has been reproduced in C. Jinarajadasa's The "K.H." Letters to C.W. Leadbeater [ See http://www.questbooks.net/title.cfm?bookid=193 ] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 03 20:50:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 04:50:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 40521 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 04:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 04:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 04:50:48 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188ZCK-0003lh-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 20:50:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DC5FCC9.84119B7B@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 23:51:21 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart's Latest Statement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Bart, as far as I can ascertain, your statement is wrong and somehow > you have been misinformed. I will check with my source. Bart From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Nov 03 23:56:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 07:56:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 35216 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 07:56:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 07:56:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 07:56:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 07:56:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:56:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Daniel Caldwell's repeated hat-trick. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2698 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Notice how Daniel Caldwell puls all these "stories" out of his sleeves and try's to pass them them as "valid" testimonies of some kind. This tap dance of Daniel Caldwell lends nothing to the debate except as has been the repeated pattern of pseudo-historian Caldwell, creating confusion and sidestepping the real issues at hand. Daniel Caldwell is renowned (ask Dr. Lane) for having people go in circles with his arguments. It is when these stories/"testimonies" have proof to back them up that they become more believable. Observed Daniel Caldwell do the same hat trick on another list someone responded : "How trusting are you when someone comes up to you in the street and says, If you come with me you will get $500 dollars--most adults (for the most part) would not believe the person. So why should it be any different when someone makes a claim about the paranormal ? Now don't get me wrong, some people may say they saw something outrageous and it may be that they did--but it was their perception of the incident. For example, if a person was to say they were abducted by aliens and could recount the whole story--that doesn't make the story true to you or I. He/she could have actually visualized the image judgments and felt like they went through the whole process. Another interesting point brought up was when Daniel Caldwell stated, proof is a matter of individual. I do not fully agree. The burden of proof is on the claimant which makes the means of proof also on the claimant. Thus there is no demand for proof because it is a given that if a claim is made, proof should accompany it (if it is to be believed). The disbeliever can offer a suggestion on how to prove a claim but it is not his/her responsibility. I also see the repeated misunderstanding/misrepresentation regarding "science" and common sense, this is a "method" not a fixed body of knowledge that remains the same. It is seeking the correct answers by application of the Scientific Method for example. Science is the process by which we discover the answers, a painstaking, slow approach. Theosophists and esotericists, on the other hand, tend to be impatient and want all the answers yesterday. So, rather than taking the slow, painstaking approach, they tend to indulge in fantasy and leap on quick answers that usually cannot stand the muster of scrutiny. A basis of scientific understanding is constructed based on the observations, with attempts to infer the "missing pieces", via logic and reason. But even hard reasoning is not enough, they only produce hypotheses which then must be tested. The above is on: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Nov 04 02:08:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 10:08:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 94962 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 10:08:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 10:08:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 10:08:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.17.31059f34 (3964) for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:08:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17.31059f34.2af7a12b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:08:43 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re .Buddhismi To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/03/02 4:56:26 PM, wry1111@earthlink.net writes: >Leon, in Mahayana Buddhism, there is not an effort to understand "the 'root' >of Consciousness" or "the root of matter," as you have put it, as this >would lead to an extreme, which is called "eternalism," which would be >contradictory to the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism, which is to act from >a middle ground in such a way that as to relieve the suffering of sentient >beings by generating great compassion (boddhichitta) which is considered >the antidote to the sufferings of sentient beings. It is hard to understand >the incredible force of "great compassion" unless one has come into contact >with it, and it is my understanding that most people have not experienced >the power of this kind and quality of compassion, but just that of the >"baby" boddhichitta (conventional compassion). > >Leon, re. your statement about Buddha: "His purpose was to instill the >value of detachment from the forms of matter in his disciples and the recognition >that each individual, as an apparently separate conscious being was, in >fact, unchanging and in essential oneness or unity with the primal source >of all consciousness." This is NOT Buddhism. The teaching of Buddhism is >that everything is changing and that there is NOT a "primal source of all >consciousness." This is a KEY teaching of Buddhism, in that the whole religion >is based on it. Thank you for your comments, and I respect your profound knowledge of the Buddhistic teachings. However, I never said that Mahayana Buddhism is an effort to understand "the root of consciousness" or "the root of matter." Those questions are, on the other hand, my primary interest from an occult metaphysical and scientific point of view -- that has little to do with the laudable Buddhist interest in "relieving the suffering of sentient beings by generating great compassion" during this current cycle of their existence. In fact, I very much admire this aspect of Buddhism, and have been practicing an equivalent of the "eight fold path" (which I call "Dzyan") in my personal life. Although, I am not a Buddhist of any sort in an organized religious sense -- since I see Gautama, the Buddha, as being no different in his understanding of the true nature of reality than any great "Master of Wisdom" -- some of whose disciples formalized religious movements on their Behalf. However, their moral-ethical basis (or religious practices and teachings) cannot answer the questions of pure scientific theosophy (or occult metaphysics) that I am asking -- and attempting to answer in modern scientific terms (the language of this age) as best I can. I have no argument with the necessity for the "middle path" to fulfill the goals of Mahayana Buddhism, but I see this as no different, in essence, than the path of Lao Tse, Jesus, Krishna, Hermes-Thoth, Pythagorus, etc. As a result of this "free thinking" on my part, I believe that "a theosophist is one who is in the true service of humanity," and can say that "I am a member of no cult or sect but a member of each and all." (This, of course, being limited to the esoteric ideas and truths concerning the true nature of reality that are their common roots.) Because Mahayana Buddhism bases its teachings on a denial of "eternalism" (whatever that means) doesn't negate the fact that consciousness, mind and matter exist as intimately connected universal attributes in the here and now, and as far back in the cyclic "lives" or "manvantaras" of the Cosmos that we care to go. It is reasonable to assume, then, that these triune functions, whether asleep or awake, either had a beginning somehow and somewhere, or are the fundamental aspects of the Cosmos (based on a single unified and fundamental law) -- that continues to exist, whether absorbed and asleep in the Absolute or as a manifest plenum consisting of phenomenal consciousness (or Spirit), mind, and matter (substance) which are intimately linked through seven, ten or twelve coadunate but not consubstantial fields, phases, states, or planes, in infinite (subjective or objective) permutations and combinations -- that never had a beginning nor will ever have an end. If the latter is the case, then it's also reasonable to assume that, together, the "rootless roots" of these related aspects of reality, are "eternal" (in the infinite sense). Thus, there are the possibilities of an infinite number of universes -- of which this is only one of them. Modern science (e.g., Superstring/M-brane theory) is getting very close to confirming this. However, I understand the necessity of Buddha's limiting of his concerns (and those of his disciples) solely to the finite or "non eternal" cycle of this manvantara and its associated "sentient beings" -- that have, in themselves, also a finite and temporary existence. Nevertheless, this does not negate the possibility that the fundamental and triune "roots" of this temporary existence, are, in themselves, eternal. Thus, the eternal Monad reflects itself everywhere. This idealistic as well as scientific "esoteric Bodhi-ism," goes far beyond (deeper than) the pragmatic "exoteric Buddhism" studied and practiced (for obvious reasons) by the current religious disciples of the Buddha. I hope you understand that my position, with relation to the eternality of the Absolute rootless root of all, is not a contradiction of the Buddha's Mahayana teachings... But, that it goes far beyond the limited scope of his concern for the welfare of sentient beings during this limited and finite phase of their existence in the present state of the Cosmos. I think that the fundamental metaphysical teachings of theosophy in the SD, based on the pure "occultism" that underlies it, make this perfectly clear. Respectfully, LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 03:11:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 11:11:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 70143 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 11:11:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 11:11:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 11:11:41 -0000 Received: from pool0134.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.134] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188f8H-0005Bb-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 03:11:01 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: A History of Esotericism -- Recent inquiries Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 03:06:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 4 2002 Dear Friends: Recent inquiries into the past traces of Theosophy in the history of our world may be had below from the pen of H P B -------------------- 431 The most ancient religions have always had their greater and lesser mysteries. 431. The great schools of Esotericism were international, although exclusive 432 Wisdom is inseparable from divinity.. 433 The INFINITE cannot be known to our reason, which can only distinguish and define;--but we can always conceive the abstract idea thereof, thanks to that faculty higher than our reason,--intuition, or the spiritual instinct of which I have spoken. Only the great initiates, who have the rare power of throwing themselves into the state of Samadhi,--which can be but imperfectly translated by the word ecstacy, a state in which one ceases to be the conditioned and personal "I," and becomes one with the ALL p. 437 Theosophy ....the most grandiose and sublime philosophy in the world. P. 445 "The root idea of the Neo-Platonists was the existence of one only and supreme Essence." -- Wilder P. 437 [It has] esoteric teachings, which are not divulged to a mocking public... P. 438 Theosophy is a descendant in direct line of the great tree of universal GNOSIS, a tree ...which, ...gave shelter ...to all the temples and ...nations of the earth. That Gnosis represents the aggregate of all the sciences, the accumulated wisdom of all the gods and demi-gods incarnated in former times upon the earth...We believe in Avatars and in divine dynasties, in the epoch when there were, in fact, "giants upon the earth" P. 438 "What then is your religion or your belief?" ..."The TRUTH," we reply. The truth wherever we can find it...our greatest ambition [is]...to reconcile the different religious systems, to help each one to find the truth in his own religion, while obliging him to recognize it in that of his neighbour. P. 439 [Who is a] saviour...He who dissipates the darkness of ignorance by the help of the torch of science, thus discovering to us the truth, deserves that title as a mark of our gratitude...Such an one awakens in our benumbed souls the faculty of distinguishing the true from the false, by kindling a divine flame, hitherto absent, and he has the right to our grateful worship, for he has become our creator. P. 439 ...we have but to remember one thing: symbols of divine truths were not invented for the amusement of the ignorant; they are the alpha and omega of philosophic thought. Fn. [Eliminate] the illusion of the personality of the Ego, placed by our egotism in the first rank...it is necessary to assimilate the whole of humanity, live by it, for it, and in it, in other terms, cease to be "one," and become "all" or the total. P. 439 Theosophy being the way that leads to truth, in every religion, as in every science, occultism is, so to say, the touchstone and universal solvent. It is the... light thrown by this torch can be discerned only by the eye of the awakened soul--by our spiritual senses; it blinds the eye of the materialist. P. 439 Having neither dogma nor ritual,--these two being but fetters, the material body which suffocates the soul,--we do not employ the "ceremonial magic" Page 424 The Beacon-light of Truth is Nature without the veil of the senses. It can be reached only when the adept has become absolute master of his personal self, able to control all his physical and psychic senses by the aid of his "seventh sense," through which he is gifted also with the true wisdom of the gods--Theosophia. H P B then traces the evidence of a continuous History of Esoteric Wisdom: 425 Simon the magician, and his disciple Menander ...the system followed by Apollonius of Tyana, Iamblicus and other magi... its true character is only half revealed by the author of the book De Mysteriis... his explanations sufficed to convert Porphyry, Plotinus, and others, who ...became its most fervent adherents."...True Magic, the theurgy of Iamblicus, is ...identical with the gnosis of Pythagoras ...the science of things which are, and with the divine ecstacy of the Philaletheans, "the lovers of Truth." ... who have witnessed to the divine character and the reality of that ecstacy which is called Samadhi in India? 426 A long series of men, instance, Ammonius Saccas, called the Theodidaktos, "God-instructed"; the great master whose life was so chaste and so pure, that Plotinus, his pupil, had not the slightest hope of ever seeing any mortal comparable to him. Then there is this same Plotinus who was for Ammonius what Plato was for Socrates--a disciple worthy of his illustrious master. Then there is Porphyry, the pupil of Plotinus, the author of the biography of Pythagoras. Under the shadow of this divine gnosis, whose beneficent influence has extended to our own days, all the celebrated mystics of the later centuries have been developed, such as Jacob Boehme, Emanuel Swedenborg, and so many others. Madame Guyon is the feminine counterpart of Iamblicus. The Christian Quietists, the Mussulman Soufis, the Rosicrucians of all countries, drink the waters of that inexhaustible fountain--the Theosophy of the Neo-Platonists of the first centuries of the Christian Era. The Gnosis preceded that era, for it was the direct continuation of the Gupta Vidya and of the Brahmâ-Vidya ("secret knowledge") of ancient India, transmitted through Egypt; just as the theurgy of the Philaletheans was the continuation of the Egyptian mysteries. 426 ...the point from which this... starts, is the Supreme Divinity; its end and aim, the union of the divine spark which animates man with the parent-flame, which is the Divine ALL. This consummation is the ultima thule of those Theosophists, who devote themselves entirely to the service of humanity. Concerning Intuition she says: Every one of us possesses the faculty, the interior sense, that is known by the name of intuition, but how rare are those who know how to develop it! It is, however, only by the aid of this faculty that men can ever see things in their true colours. It is an instinct of the soul, which grows in us in proportion to the employment we give it, and which helps us to perceive and understand the realities of things with far more certainty than can the simple use of our senses and exercise of our reason. The instinct of which I speak, being a projection of our perceptive consciousness, a projection which acts from the subjective to the objective, and not vice versa, awakens in us spiritual senses and power to act; these senses assimilate to themselves the essence of the object or of the action under examination, and represent it to us as it really is, not as it appears to our physical senses and to our cold reason. "We begin with instinct, we end with omniscience" says Professor A. Wilder. Iamblicus says, [there is] "a faculty in the human mind which is immeasurably superior to all those which are grafted or engendered in us. By it we can attain to union with superior intelligences, finding ourselves raised above the scenes of this earthly life, and partaking of the higher existence and superhuman powers of the inhabitants of the celestial spheres. By this faculty we find ourselves liberated finally from the dominion of destiny (Karma), and we become, as it were, the arbiters of our own fates. For, when the most excellent parts in us find themselves filled with energy; and when our soul is lifted up towards essences higher than science, it can separate itself from the conditions which hold it in the bondage of every-day life; it exchanges its ordinary existence for another one, it renounces the conventional habits which belong to the external order of things, to give itself up to and mix itself with another order of things which reigns in that most elevated state of existence." Plato expressed the idea in two lines: "The light and spirit of the Divinity are the wings of the soul. They raise it to communion with the gods, above this earth, with which the spirit of man is too ready to soil itself. . . . To become like the gods, is to become holy, just and wise. That is the end for which man was created, and that ought to be his aim in the acquisition of knowledge." This is true Theosophy, inner Theosophy, that of the soul. Is asceticism essential? In isolating themselves as they ...show themselves profoundly indifferent to the fate of mankind whom they fly from ... the only track that leads to the truth... on which each one voluntarily bears the cross of humanity, and for humanity. In reality it is a nest of the coarsest kind of selfishness 429-30 Gautama, the Buddha, only remained in solitude long enough to enable him to arrive at the truth, which he devoted himself from that time on to promulgate, begging his bread, and living for humanity. Jesus retired to the desert only for forty days, and died for this same humanity. 430 Apollonius of Tyana, Plotinus, Iamblicus, while leading lives of singular abstinence, almost of asceticism, lived in the world and for the world. The greatest ascetics and saints of our days are not those who retire into inaccessible places, but those who pass their lives in travelling , doing good and trying to raise mankind; 430 [The Brothers are] Those who regard the human soul as an emanation of the Deity, as a particle or ray of the universal and ABSOLUTE soul, 430 The Beacon-light upon which the eyes of all real Theosophists are fixed is the same towards which in all ages the imprisoned human soul has struggled. This Beacon, whose light shines upon no earthly seas, but which has mirrored itself in the sombre depths of the primordial waters of infinite space, is called by us, as by the earliest Theosophists, "Divine Wisdom." That is the last word of the esoteric doctrine; and, in antiquity, where was the country, having the right to call itself civilized, that did not possess a double system of WISDOM, of which one part was for the masses, and the other for the few,--the exoteric and the esoteric? Wisdom -- Esoteric Science 430 This name, WISDOM, or, as we say sometimes, the "Wisdom Religion" or Theosophy, is as old as the human mind. The title of Sages--the priests of this worship of truth--was its first derivative. These names were afterwards transformed into philosophy, and philosophers--the "lovers of science" or of wisdom. It is to Pythagoras that we owe that name, as also that of gnosis, the system of "the knowledge of things as they are," or of the essence that is hidden beneath the external appearances. Under that name, so noble and so correct in its definition, all the masters of antiquity designated the aggregate of our knowledge of things human and divine. 431 ...philosophers, have always classified that science in two divisions--the esoteric, or the true, and the exoteric, disguised in symbols. 431 We are accused of mystery, and we are reproached with making a secret of the higher Theosophy. We confess that the doctrine which we call gupta vidya (secret science) is only for the few. 431 it has been the invariable rule that the disciple must gain the confidence of the master before receiving from him the supreme and final word. P. 441 the solar globe [is] nothing but a beautiful metaphor, a maya--thus announcing an occult axiom. P. 442 Theosophy...examines the reverse side of every apparent truth. It tests and analyses every fact put forward by physical science, looking only for the essence and the ultimate and occult constitution in every cosmical or physical manifestation, whether in the domain of ethics, intellect, or matter. In a word, Theosophy begins its researches where materialists finish theirs. P. 442-3 Theosophy, therefore, or rather the occult sciences it studies, is something more than simple metaphysics...Theosophy rejects the testimony of the physical senses entirely, if the latter be not based upon that afforded by the psychic and spiritual perceptions. Even in the case of the most highly developed clairvoyance and clairaudience, the final testimony of both must be rejected, unless... like that of our five senses, [it] should receive the imprimatur of the sixth and seventh senses of the divine ego, before a fact can be accepted by the true occultist. P. 443 ...physical science has not made a step towards the knowledge of the real nature and constitution of matter P. 446 This numerical signification is one of the branches of the mystery language, or the ancient sacerdotal language. This was taught in the "Lesser Mysteries," but the language itself was reserved for the high initiates alone. The candidate must...take an oath never to divulge the higher doctrines to any one to whom the preliminary ones had not already been imparted...and...was not ready for initiation. P. 446 Therefore the "similes" employed by Jesus were part of the "language of the mysteries," the sacerdotal tongue of the initiates. Rome has lost the key to it: by rejecting theosophy and pronouncing her anathema against the occult sciences,--she loses it for ever. P. 444 Theosophy is synonymous with Gnana Vidya, and with the Brahma-Vidya of the Hindus, and again with the Dzyan of the trans-Himalayan adepts, the science of the true Raj-Yogis, who are much more accessible than one thinks. Fn. Vidya... the knowledge of Brahm, that is to say, of the God that contains all the gods. Fn. Samadhi is a state of abstract contemplation...It is a mental, or, rather, spiritual state, which is not dependent upon any perceptible object, and during which the subject, absorbed in the region of pure spirit, lives in the Divinity. P. "Preach altruism, keep unity, mutual understanding and harmony in your groups, all of you who place yourselves among the neophytes and the seekers after the ONE TRUTH," other Teachers tell us. "Without unity, and intellectual as well as psychic sympathy, you will arrive at nothing. He who sows discord, reaps the whirlwind." P. ...it is better to confess one's imperfections openly, in other words, to wash one's own dirty linen, than to dirty the linen of one's brothers in Theosophy, as some people love to do. Let us speak in general terms, confess our errors, denounce anything that is not Theosophical, but let personalities alone; the latter lies within the province of each individual's Karma P. Those who desire to succeed in abstract or practical Theosophy must remember that disunity is the first condition of failure. P. In Theosophy, what is required is emulation and not rivalry, otherwise, he who boasts of being the first, will be the last. In true Theosophy, it is the least who becomes the greatest. P. 62-3 "we believe in an impersonal and absolute Principle...non-being, or the ABSOLUTE...The idea of being limited to something which exists...does not exist for us. P 62 fn ...the Theosophical Society is a Republic of Conscience." P. 63 "the god who does not exist but who is...nameless, and without qualities..." [The ABSOLUTE] P. 63 The Absolute neither having, nor being able to have, any relation with the conditioned or the limited, that from which the emanations proceed is the "god that speaks"...the Logos...the second God. P. 63 Absolute [is unable] to have any relation with the conditioned P. 63-4 ...that from which the emanations proceed is the "God that speaks...the Logos...the Wisdom of God ONE and the creator of forms [the NOTHING is the ABSOLUTE -- the WHOLE]. P. 64 ...this "second god"... is the periodical effect of an eternal and immutable law, independent of time and space, and of which the Logos or creative intelligence is the shadow or the reflection. P. 64 ...our plane...where everything is reversed...as in a mirror ... from the point of view of the Absolute Reality, the universe with all its conscious and intelligent inhabitants... is the shadow of the Real... P. 64 ...the Absolute, from our point of view, is deprived of all conditioned qualities by the very fact that it is the absolute. P. 67 [ancient libraries beyond the Himalayas -- repositories of the "intellectual treasures"... and guarded by] ...the primitive interpreters of the divine Wisdom... P. 67-8 Our Society is the tree of Brotherhood...[members] it depends on them to make ...a bridge destined in the near future to carry the humanity of the new cycle beyond the muddy waters of the deluge of hopeless materialism...stretching to them a plank of safety. P. 68 ...the triple desire of the T S... 1. Full and entire liberty of conscience allowed to all, 2. fraternity reigning between the rich and the poor, 3. equality recognized in theory and practice... The great reform must take place without any social shocks... [diversity] is due but to the personal Karma of each human being. P. 88 ...the immortal individuality...in him, emanates from the same divine essence, as does that of his neighbours...the philosophic truth that every Ego begins and ends by being the indivisible Whole, [he] can not love his neighbor less than he does himself. But, until this becomes a religious truth, no such reform can take place. P. 69 Let those who are strongest show the road to those who are weaker. ----------------------------------------- These words H PB wrote in LE PHARE DE L'INCONNU. [La Revue Teosophique, Paris 1889] These are extracts therefrom. Best wishes, D T B ============================ From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 04:12:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 67536 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 12:12:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Who wrote the Mahatma Letters ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2393 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve: It was Besant who said Blavatsky disguised her handwriting for mahatma letters. In the case of the Prayah letter she did not disguie her handwriting, but sent it out in her own script. In that case, as in others, the content of the letter is supposed to have been that of the mahatma, and not hers. Brian: Occult authority has proved to be highly controversial, not only for those outside the Theosophical movement, but for Theosophists as well, since the authenticity of such claims can be verified only from a position of faith. Theodore Flournoy in his by now famous book From India to Planet Mars (1899) analyzed the case of 19th century medium Helene Smith (alias Elise Mueller) that wrote in "Martian script." (T. Flournoy, "From India to Planet Mars" trans. Princeton University Press, 1994. See also: "The Real Miss Beauchamp: Gender and the Subject of Imitation," in Judith Butler and Joan W. Scott (eds.), Feminists Theorise the Political. 1992, p.182.) See copy of the Martian script on my web site that just as the Mahatma Letters were apparently written, fluently. Occult authority seems to have been relinquished in the parent Theosophical Society since no one currently is claiming to be the visible agent of the Masters. There is also still the open question why W.Q. Judge had so little difficulty imitating the "Mahatma Letters" hand writing? I'm shure Daniel Caldwell will not provide links to answer that one. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > When Hodgson took "samples" of Blavatsky's handwriting and > Mahatma > > Letters to a handwriting analyst, it appears that they were not > > originals; they were copies that Hodgson made himself. No wonder his > > analyst said they came from the same person. > > The "experts" (one of whom was not an expert by any standard of > assessment) were badgered by Hodgson into making those statements. > > It was Besant who said Blavatsky disguised her handwriting for > mahatma letters. In the case of the Prayah letter she did not > disguie her handwriting, but sent it out in her own script. In that > case, as in others, the content of the letter is supposed to have > been that of the mahatma, and not hers. From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 04 04:39:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 12:39:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 6331 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 12:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 12:39:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 12:39:45 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-48.look.ca ([216.154.45.191] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 188gW6-0000gv-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:39:42 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC66AA3.A057003B@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:40:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re recent . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn This is about the recent posts from Leon, Gerald, Wry, Dallas, Tim, Mauri, etc. If karma had an influence in shaping the nature of the thinking that went into the composition of those posts (ie, "karma," "influence," "shaping," "thinking," etc., in terms of the "present real" or "exoteric" framework or worldview), and if Theosophy is seen as having an objective in keeping with a form of "s/Sense making," in "b/Broader terms," say, I wonder if manas might get around to seeing that there might be ("are"?) kinds of sense making (even of the small s kind) that would be seen as keyish in the area of one's dealings with the apparent differences in people. That is, what if there might be a kind of better-off form of sense making (in keeping with a larger or Theosophic perspective) that might involve efforts to focus on and cultivate those aspects of "r/Realer mutual support" that are seen as "spanning the differences in a manner that's wise and unifying," (after defining such mutually supportive aspects to oneself, of course, which might be not only "another subject," but part of the prime karmic reality that had a role in bringing us here, in the first place; but/"but" . . . ) . . . "Actually," (would you believe, guys?), I would've liked to respond "more specifically" to each of you, but, (you guessed it?), I have to go to work, AGAIN, ("for now," at any rate). Speculatively, Mauri PS And sorry, Dallas, Leon, etc.., for what-ifing and speculating again. Seems I haven't got around to anything better. One of these days, eh . . . From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 04 07:43:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 15:43:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 74582 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 15:43:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 15:43:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 15:43:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 15:43:08 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:43:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Whose "repeated hat-trick"??? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5056 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte, You wrote: ------------------------------------------------- This tap dance of Daniel Caldwell lends nothing to the debate except as has been the repeated pattern of pseudo-historian Caldwell, creating confusion and sidestepping the real issues at hand. ---------------------------------------------------- At long last I have a title! :) I can now sign my postings: Daniel H. Caldwell, P.H. Speaking of "pseudo", this comment by you reminds me of what Rochus Boerner writes in "Some Notes on Skepticism": ". . . the true skeptic refrains from ad hominem attacks and name calling while the pseudoskeptic elevates them to an art form." Quoted from: http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/skepticism.html Now let us consider some of your other comments: ------------------------------------------------- Notice how Daniel Caldwell puls all these "stories" out of his sleeves and try's to pass them them as "valid" testimonies of some kind. . . . It is when these stories/"testimonies" have proof to back them up that they become more believable. Observed Daniel Caldwell do the same hat trick on another list someone responded : "How trusting are you when someone comes up to you in the street and says, If you come with me you will get $500 dollars--most adults (for the most part) would not believe the person. So why should it be any different when someone makes a claim about the paranormal ? Now don't get me wrong, some people may say they saw something outrageous and it may be that they did--but it was their perception of the incident. For example, if a person was to say they were abducted by aliens and could recount the whole story--that doesn't make thestory true to you or I. ---------------------------------------------------------- Well, Brian/Brigitte, I am not the only one trying to pass these Theosophical "stories" off as "'valid' testimonies of some kind. . . ." In fact, I'm in good company with Steve Stubbs, Paul Johnson and your former incarnation Brigitte Muehlegger. Take the two "stories" of Olcott receiving a KH letter on board the S.S. Shannon and the "Gebhard letter" which was discussed many months ago on this forum. Steve Stubbs who prides himself in not being a "Theosophical fundamentalist" recently wrote on this forum: "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8398 caps added Brian/Brigitte, have you taken Steve to task for trying to pass these Theosophical "stories" off as "'valid' testimonies of some kind. . . ."? Please remember what you just wrote: "It is when these stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up that they become more believable." I would think that Steve must believe that the 2 cases just cited have some "proof to back them up", otherwise why would he characterize them as "good candidates"? OBTW, do you agree with Steve's statement that "the Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are good candidates for evidence that some letters were delivered by phenomenal means"? If you don't agree, then please give us your reasoning. Moving on to Paul Johnson. Let's take one of the Theosophical "stories" by H.S. Olcott. See his "story" about Ooton Liatto at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcottooton.htm Concerning this "testimony", this "story", Johnson wrote in his scholarly book "The Masters Revealed" his considered opinion that: ". . . there is little doubt that two real adepts visited Olcott in New York." For more of Johnson's comments, see: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/johnsonooton.htm Brian/Brigitte, to paraphrase you, we might ask: Is Johnson trying to pass this "story" off as a "valid" testimony "of some kind. . . ."? And let us not forget your own words: "It is when these stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up that they become more believable." I assume from Johnson's own words that he considers Olcott's "story" as "believeable". But tell us Brian/Brigitte where is the "proof" you write of that makes the Olcott account "more believable"? And last but not least, let us consider you in your former incarnation when you signed your postings as "Brigitte Muehlegger". Brigitte Muehlegger's assessment of the above "story" by Olcott can be found at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/muehlegger2.htm Keeping in mind what you just posted today that "it is when these stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up that they become more believable," please tell us, Brian/Brigitte, what proof was there to back up Olcott's story which made it believable enough that you could write (in your last incarnation)--- ". . . That there where real visitors [as Olcott relates in his "story"] . . . I have never doubted . . . . " It will be interesting to see what your response is. Will you sidestep "the real issues at hand" which I have outlined above? Daniel H. Caldwell, P.H. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 08:06:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 16:06:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 41618 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 16:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 16:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 16:06:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 16:06:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:06:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1224 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.72 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > C. W. Leadbeater > October 31, 1884 > London Thanks for the precipitation stories. The Theosophical sources say that some of the letters were precipitated and that most were not. Your comments seem to fit in well with those statements. There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis chelas who produced them? Unfortunately, precipitation stories, however interesting, do not relieve us on this point because even if we grant that Blavatsky could produce a letter out of thin air, that does not constitute reason to believe the letter she produced did not contain her own thoughts rather than someone else's. I am not saying the problem cannot be solved, only that the stories do not solve it. So suppose someone like Paul Johnson or Brigitte Muehlegger were to suddenly profess belief in the mathatmas and precipitation but express doubt that the mahatmas wrote the letters, how could one answer that difficulty? From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 04 09:05:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 17:05:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 3319 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 17:05:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 17:05:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 17:05:26 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188jvo-0005xp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 08:18:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3DC69DEE.CC42CDA9@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:18:54 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Who wrote the Mahatma Letters ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > Brian: Occult authority has proved to be highly controversial, not > only for those outside the Theosophical movement, but for Theosophists > as well, since the authenticity of such claims can be verified only > from a position of faith. Which, according the Mahatma Letters themselves, is wrong. This is the reason why their authenticity is relatively moot; if the letters do not stand up on their own, it doesn't matter WHO wrote them. Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 04 10:20:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 18:20:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 54007 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 18:20:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 18:20:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 18:20:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 18:20:27 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:20:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Some questions for Steve Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3181 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, You wrote: "It was Besant who said Blavatsky disguised her handwriting for mahatma letters." Steve, can you please give us your source for "Besant...said"? But why should we accept what Mrs. Besant said about this? What did Mrs. Besant actually know about this matter? Furthermore, Mrs. Besant didn't come on to the Theosophical scene until 1889. Most of the Mahatma Letters were received prior to this year. So what did she really know about how these mahatma letters were written or not? [Here I am ignoring the mahatma letters that were a bone of contention between Judge and Besant in the 1890s.] Steve, again you state: "In the case of the Prayah letter she [HPB] did not disguie her handwriting, but sent it out in her own script. In that case, as in others, the content of the letter is supposed to have been that of the mahatma, and not hers." Yes, it is true that HPB did not "disguise" her handwriting because this was simply one of her OWN letters to Sinnett. She did not "pretend" that she was transmitting an actual letter from M. See this particular letter at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm Notice what HPB writes to Sinnett: "[I]Saw at last M. and showed him your last or rather Benemadhab's on which you have scratched a query. It is the latter Morya answers. I wrote this under his dictation and now copy it." But ponder on this..... In light of what you have been writing, Steve, why didn't HPB disguise her handwriting in this instance and write in the M. script and give Sinnett another separate M. letter? A careless choice? Was she too tired to "disguise" her handwriting? etc. etc. Furthermore, why would HPB make all the effort and learn to disguise her handwriting in at least two different scripts (KH and M) when she could have EASILY written ALL of the Mahatma communications in her own handwriting and simply added: "I wrote this under his dictation and now copy it." And please compare and contrast this communication from M [ http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm ] with the 1884 HPB letter I quoted yesterday [ http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-137.htm ] In the Prayag letter, HPB simply copies M.'s dicatated words into her own letter. No "disguised" Mahatmic handwriting here! But in the 1884 letter, HPB enclosed with her own letter a separate letter in KH's handwriting. Futhermore, she told Sinnett D.K appeared in his apparitional form and "wrote" the letter while KH was dictating. Why didn't KH just dictate it directly to HPB? Why is D.K. even involved in this letter transaction? Perchance, Steve, you and I believe that D.K. actually appeared to HPB and the scenario in her cabin outlined by HPB actually happened. But does our friend Brian/Brigitte believe that? From his/her previous comments, I would think that B/B believes HPB faked both communications under discussion. There was no Master Morya dictating to HPB. And there was no DK appearing in her cabin, etc. etc. HPB faked both letters. I could be wrong about B's/B's opinion and I look forward to his/her clearly stated opinion. Daniel From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 10:21:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 18:21:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 78951 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 18:21:00 -0000 Received: from 1cust200.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.200] helo=idapingala) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188lqK-0001nO-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 10:20:57 -0800 Message-ID: <003101c2842f$418bb740$c8d30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <17.31059f34.2af7a12b@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World re .Buddhismi Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 10:23:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi Leon, Thanks for an interesting reply. One of the reasons I put this out here is that I have read again and again on theosophy lists a comparison of Theosophy to Buddhism, and recently, the talk from a Theosophsy Convention (theos-world newsletter) stating that Theosophy is nothing other than Mahayana Buddhism (it is not, but that's ok.) I just occasionally like to try to clarify this, little by little. I'm glad that someone thinks my understanding of Buddhism is "profound." I think you are gently pulling my leg. In any case, I am an eclectic Buddhist, as I do not chant or practice rituals. I agree with you that there is much similarity between Buddhism and many of the great spiritual teachings of humanity, including Christianity. Maybe sometime I will put on here some past writings on this subject which I have sent to other lists. I am actually a religious fanatic of sorts, though I do not believe in much of anything, as I have always, from childhood, been deeply attracted to anything that has to so with religion, and have never been too particular about which religion it is. At an early age, twenty-seven, I found Krishnamurti, and in the last fifteen years, an interest in science has come into the picture. Buddhism is a religion that is designed, as any effective religion, for people of many different levels of understanding. But this religion is more contemporary, in a sense, as the idea of dependent origination, is taught literally, as well as allegorically, whereas in other religions, such as Christianity, one can only find allegorical reference to this, and it is so encoded that most would miss it. I do not know if you read a message I put out here some time ago, in response to Dallas, in which I mentioned numbers, but I do not believe a complete understanding or experiencing of the forces of the trinity is possible to a human being. Different numbers have been used to represent a human being in different traditions. I suggested that the number six might be a better place to start than the number three, as we are always in relationship. In Mahayana Buddhism, a kind of samadhi-like meditative state where everything sort of seems to be standing still (behind everything moving) is not the end of this great teaching, but actually where it begins. The aim, as in all major spiritual practices, including Taoism and Alchemy, is to take the "seed" of man and elevate in such a way that it is not disseminated or broken apart and scattered to the winds, but to raise it up whole in such a way that a transformation of the individual is affected in that the generative quality of the whole seed becomes the quality of the whole person. The problem with a primal cause, whatever it is and however it is conceived, is that its mental conception generates a split, and then it is NOT THAT. It is the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism that nothing is unchanging, but that everything is interconnected and MOVING, and therefore there cannot be a primal cause. This is demonstrated through logic as a KEY part of the teaching and is called DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. One can try to make the technical point that EMPTINESS is not moving, but all emptiness means is that nothing exists on its own side, independent of everything else. Obviously, a full realization of emptiness leads to a state of deep meditation. The aim is the CONNECT the two understandings of EMPTINESS and DEPENDENT ORIGINATION in such a way that they are inseparable. When this occurs, it is said that this is liberation. I would not know for sure, but I am beginning to have a glimmer of understanding, as "through a glass darkly," about what this is and how it works IN THE BODY. Presumably, after this understanding is complete, one would enter a very small society of Mahayana Buddhists or whomever, as one would then be able to generate the Non-convention or major boddhichitta and could rightfully be called a Mahayana Buddhist, which I cannot yet call myself. Even to write this, about the possibility of becoming a Mahayana Buddhist sends a thrill of joy through my body. Re. what you refer to as "the eternality of the Absolute rootless root of all," there are different kinds of Buddhism for different kinds of people. For some Buddhists, perhaps, though I am not even sure, this might not be a contradiction, but for a Mahayana Buddhist, this would. There is no way to approach certain material except by A total OBLITERATION. This is what Sufi mystics refer to when they speak of the lover being a slave to the Sultan or the moth being consumed by the flame. When this obliteration is complete, there is NO RECORD of it having occurred. At this POINT and only at this POINT, certain OPERATIONS can be PREFORMED. It then (presumably) becomes not about helping sentient creatures, but about doing the best for ONESELF. This is BEING, but one would also need KNOWLEDGE. One could perhaps be called quantum and the other macroscopic, or whatever, but to translate all this into ones daily life, in my opinion, it ultimately needs to be reduced to a daily practice of sweeping the floor consciously. Hope this makes some kind of sense. Responses can sometimes seem exaggerated as they are written down. I will try to approach this subject a little bit more in the language of science sometime (and somewhere) in the next few weeks. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World re .Buddhismi > > In a message dated 11/03/02 4:56:26 PM, wry1111@earthlink.net writes: > > >Leon, in Mahayana Buddhism, there is not an effort to understand "the 'root' > >of Consciousness" or "the root of matter," as you have put it, as this > >would lead to an extreme, which is called "eternalism," which would be > >contradictory to the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism, which is to act from > >a middle ground in such a way that as to relieve the suffering of sentient > >beings by generating great compassion (boddhichitta) which is considered > >the antidote to the sufferings of sentient beings. > > Thank you for your comments, and I respect your profound knowledge of the > Buddhistic teachings. However, I never said that Mahayana Buddhism is an > effort to understand "the root of consciousness" or "the root of matter." > > Those questions are, on the other hand, my primary interest from an occult > metaphysical and scientific point of view -- that has little to do with the > laudable Buddhist interest in "relieving the suffering of sentient beings by > generating great compassion" during this current cycle of their existence. > In fact, I very much admire this aspect of Buddhism, and have been practicing > an equivalent of the "eight fold path" (which I call "Dzyan") in my personal > life. Although, I am not a Buddhist of any sort in an organized religious > sense -- since I see Gautama, the Buddha, as being no different in his > understanding of the true nature of reality than any great "Master of Wisdom" > -- some of whose disciples formalized religious movements on their Behalf. > However, their moral-ethical basis (or religious practices and teachings) > cannot answer the questions of pure scientific theosophy (or occult > metaphysics) that I am asking -- and attempting to answer in modern > scientific terms (the language of this age) as best I can. > > I have no argument with the necessity for the "middle path" to fulfill the > goals of Mahayana Buddhism, but I see this as no different, in essence, than > the path of Lao Tse, Jesus, Krishna, Hermes-Thoth, Pythagorus, etc. As a > result of this "free thinking" on my part, I believe that "a theosophist is > one who is in the true service of humanity," and can say that "I am a member > of no cult or sect but a member of each and all." (This, of course, being > limited to the esoteric ideas and truths concerning the true nature of > reality that are their common roots.) > > Because Mahayana Buddhism bases its teachings on a denial of "eternalism" > (whatever that means) doesn't negate the fact that consciousness, mind and > matter exist as intimately connected universal attributes in the here and > now, and as far back in the cyclic "lives" or "manvantaras" of the Cosmos > that we care to go. It is reasonable to assume, then, that these triune > functions, whether asleep or awake, either had a beginning somehow and > somewhere, or are the fundamental aspects of the Cosmos (based on a single > unified and fundamental law) -- that continues to exist, whether absorbed and > asleep in the Absolute or as a manifest plenum consisting of phenomenal > consciousness (or Spirit), mind, and matter (substance) which are intimately > linked through seven, ten or twelve coadunate but not consubstantial fields, > phases, states, or planes, in infinite (subjective or objective) permutations > and combinations -- that never had a beginning nor will ever have an end. If > the latter is the case, then it's also reasonable to assume that, together, > the "rootless roots" of these related aspects of reality, are "eternal" (in > the infinite sense). Thus, there are the possibilities of an infinite number > of universes -- of which this is only one of them. Modern science (e.g., > Superstring/M-brane theory) is getting very close to confirming this. > > However, I understand the necessity of Buddha's limiting of his concerns (and > those of his disciples) solely to the finite or "non eternal" cycle of this > manvantara and its associated "sentient beings" -- that have, in themselves, > also a finite and temporary existence. Nevertheless, this does not negate > the possibility that the fundamental and triune "roots" of this temporary > existence, are, in themselves, eternal. Thus, the eternal Monad reflects > itself everywhere. This idealistic as well as scientific "esoteric > Bodhi-ism," goes far beyond (deeper than) the pragmatic "exoteric Buddhism" > studied and practiced (for obvious reasons) by the current religious > disciples of the Buddha. > > I hope you understand that my position, with relation to the eternality of > the Absolute rootless root of all, is not a contradiction of the Buddha's > Mahayana teachings... But, that it goes far beyond the limited scope of his > concern for the welfare of sentient beings during this limited and finite > phase of their existence in the present state of the Cosmos. I think that > the fundamental metaphysical teachings of theosophy in the SD, based on the > pure "occultism" that underlies it, make this perfectly clear. > > Respectfully, > LHM > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 10:31:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 18:31:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 75062 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 18:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 18:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 18:31:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 18:31:21 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:31:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Some questions for Steve Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3638 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Caldwell: But why should we accept what Mrs. Besant said about this? What did Mrs. Besant actually know about this matter? Brian: A lot, Blavatsky lived at Annie Besant's house the last period of her life. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, > > You wrote: > > "It was Besant who said Blavatsky disguised her handwriting for > mahatma letters." > > Steve, can you please give us your source for "Besant...said"? > > But why should we accept what Mrs. Besant said about this? What did > Mrs. Besant actually know about this matter? > > Furthermore, Mrs. Besant didn't come on to the Theosophical scene > until 1889. Most of the Mahatma Letters were received prior to this > year. So what did she really know about how these mahatma letters > were written or not? > > [Here I am ignoring the mahatma letters that were a bone of > contention between Judge and Besant in the 1890s.] > > Steve, again you state: > > "In the case of the Prayah letter she [HPB] did not disguie her > handwriting, but sent it out in her own script. In that case, as in > others, the content of the letter is supposed to have been that of > the mahatma, and not hers." > > Yes, it is true that HPB did not "disguise" her handwriting because > this was simply one of her OWN letters to Sinnett. She did > not "pretend" that she was transmitting an actual letter from M. > > See this particular letter at: > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > Notice what HPB writes to Sinnett: > > "[I]Saw at last M. and showed him your last or rather Benemadhab's on > which you have scratched a query. It is the latter Morya answers. I > wrote this under his dictation and now copy it." > > But ponder on this..... > > In light of what you have been writing, Steve, why didn't HPB > disguise her handwriting in this instance and write in the M. script > and give Sinnett another separate M. letter? A careless choice? Was > she too tired to "disguise" her handwriting? etc. etc. > > Furthermore, why would HPB make all the effort and learn to > disguise her handwriting in at least two different scripts (KH and M) > when she could have EASILY written ALL of the Mahatma communications > in her own handwriting and simply added: > > "I wrote this under his dictation and now copy it." > > And please compare and contrast this communication from M > > [ http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm ] > > with > > the 1884 HPB letter I quoted yesterday > > [ http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-137.htm ] > > In the Prayag letter, HPB simply copies M.'s dicatated words into her > own letter. No "disguised" Mahatmic handwriting here! > > But in the 1884 letter, HPB enclosed with her own letter a separate > letter in KH's handwriting. > > Futhermore, she told Sinnett D.K appeared in his apparitional form > and "wrote" the letter while KH was dictating. > > Why didn't KH just dictate it directly to HPB? Why is D.K. even > involved in this letter transaction? > > Perchance, Steve, you and I believe that D.K. actually appeared to > HPB and the scenario in her cabin outlined by HPB actually happened. > But does our friend Brian/Brigitte believe that? From his/her > previous comments, I would think that B/B believes HPB faked both > communications under discussion. There was no Master Morya dictating > to HPB. And there was no DK appearing in her cabin, etc. etc. HPB > faked both letters. > > I could be wrong about B's/B's opinion and I look forward to his/her > clearly stated opinion. > > Daniel From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 10:55:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 18:55:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 21971 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 18:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 18:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 18:55:03 -0000 Received: from 1cust200.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.200] helo=idapingala) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188mNK-0002Cu-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 10:55:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c28434$04c85980$c8d30b3f@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 10:57:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 HI Everyone. I have been waiting to reply to this topic for some time, and have chosen this interesting message to attach my own to, as it at least contains genuine enquiry. The point about any body of "spiritual" ideas is translating it into a MOVEMENT or some kind of DOING that is CONSCIOUS and not just a reaction that turns into its opposite. This is CREATION and it is meaningful. Anything we "choose" to believe in or not believe in is based on our conditioning. Even the details we choose to examine are based on this. The obvious (but maybe not so obvious to most of us) thing to do is turn the camera on oneself and discover what is going on. My acquaintance was a Mormon. He believed Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To me this is ridiculous, but, as a genuine starting point, NEITHER point of view is relevant. The reason for this is, we are going to make a bridge together, and what we need to know about is not how Joseph Smith founded the Mormon religion, but the specifics of making a bridge. Think this over. Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:06 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > C. W. Leadbeater > > October 31, 1884 > > London > > Thanks for the precipitation stories. The Theosophical sources say > that some of the letters were precipitated and that most were not. > Your comments seem to fit in well with those statements. > > There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting > preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue > from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the > actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis > chelas who produced them? Unfortunately, precipitation stories, > however interesting, do not relieve us on this point because even if > we grant that Blavatsky could produce a letter out of thin air, that > does not constitute reason to believe the letter she produced did not > contain her own thoughts rather than someone else's. I am not saying > the problem cannot be solved, only that the stories do not solve it. > So suppose someone like Paul Johnson or Brigitte Muehlegger were to > suddenly profess belief in the mathatmas and precipitation but > express doubt that the mahatmas wrote the letters, how could one > answer that difficulty? > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From lancer92112@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 11:03:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lancer92112@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: Theos-Talk@yahooGroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 31633 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web14410.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.173.221) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 19:03:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20021104190323.54015.qmail@web14410.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.129.16.5] by web14410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:03:23 PST Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:03:23 -0800 (PST) To: Theos-Talk@yahooGroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: rick warren X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122921821 X-Yahoo-Profile: lancer92112 Unsubsribe me! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 11:24:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 19:24:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 21480 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 19:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 19:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 19:23:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 19:23:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:23:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Some questions for Steve Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2099 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.237.235 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, can you please give us your source for "Besant...said"? Of course I can. OK, OK, I'll tell you. I found this statement in the book THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT. This is from memory, Besant accused Judge of writing letters "in the handwriting adopted by HPB for mahatma letters." The implication was that the handwriting having been adopted by HPB it should not be adopted by anyone else. You posted Mead's article on the SD on your web site in which he indirectly quotes Judge to the effect that what he did, writing mahatma letters, etc., had been done before by HPB. When HPB died, Judge swiped the Chinese stationery from her desk which she used for mahatma letters and started using that himself for his own mahatma letters. I think Judge, Blavatsky, et al. all believed they were writing real mahatma letters - i.e., that they were sincere. The question is: were they right? > But why should we accept what Mrs. Besant said about this? It seems to be significant evidence since she was Blavatsky's heir apparent. > Yes, it is true that HPB did not "disguise" her handwriting because > this was simply one of her OWN letters to Sinnett. She did represent this as a comunication from her master whether dictated or not. It is significant and should be entered into evidence that this mahatma letter was written in Blavatsky script. > In light of what you have been writing, Steve, why didn't HPB > disguise her handwriting in this instance and write in the M. script > and give Sinnett another separate M. letter? You are asking me to speculate on the mind set of the madame without evidence, and that is not kosher. What I am trying to do is find evidence of undoubted authenticity which gives insight and not to speculate in a vacuum. > Perchance, Steve, you and I believe that D.K. actually appeared to > HPB and the scenario in her cabin outlined by HPB actually happened. I am not an anti-Theosophist, merely examining the evidence to see what insights I can glean from it. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 04 11:29:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 19:29:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 8309 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 19:29:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 19:29:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 19:29:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2002 19:29:21 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:29:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c28434$04c85980$c8d30b3f@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 335 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.237.235 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > My acquaintance was a > Mormon. He believed Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To me this > is ridiculous Pretty silly. Especially when he did not allow even his girl friends to see them. From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 14:16:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 22:16:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 17646 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 22:16:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 22:16:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 22:16:52 -0000 Received: from 1cust188.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.188] helo=idapingala) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188pWa-0004Bv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:16:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c28450$343c1c80$bcd30b3f@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:19:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Do Theosophists ever work together as a group to create a certain atmosphere which encourages enquiry and inspires the development of an active force in individuals that is conducive to genuine spirituality, or is that pretty silly, too? What do you think? Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:29 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater > --- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > > My acquaintance was a > > Mormon. He believed Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found > the Book > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To > me this > > is ridiculous > > Pretty silly. Especially when he did not allow even his girl friends > to see them. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 04 14:58:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 4 Nov 2002 22:58:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 73503 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2002 22:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2002 22:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2002 22:58:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188qAu-0000p0-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:58:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3DC6FBC0.3A684DB3@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:59:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Precipitation of a Koot Hoomi Letter witnessed by C.W. Leadbeater References: <000901c28450$343c1c80$bcd30b3f@idapingala> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 wry wrote: > > Do Theosophists ever work together as a group to create a certain atmosphere > which encourages enquiry and inspires the development of an active force in > individuals that is conducive to genuine spirituality, Certainly. Bart Lidofsky From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 17:46:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 5 Nov 2002 01:46:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 49768 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 01:46:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 01:46:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 01:46:58 -0000 Received: from pool0798.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.33] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188snp-0004K9-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:46:49 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: NUMBERS, PLAN OF THE UNIVERSE AND Buddhismi Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:43:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003101c2842f$418bb740$c8d30b3f@idapingala> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 4 2002 Dear Friends and "wry:" Re: Numbers in Theosophical philosophy and metaphysics Re: Discussion on Karma, and UNIVERSE as the result of Planning if we seek to trace the principles of modern philosophy back to their sources we find that the history of sects and religions show them emerging one from the other down the ages: Christianity emerged from Judaism, this emerged from a rebellion against the sacerdotalism of the early Brahmins in India {A-Brahm -- 1st Patriarch -- a non-brahmin} and that is a form of non-philosophical early Hinduism. In emigrating westward, into the Near-East, these left traces of their passage in the Egyptian and Greek philosophies of religion in Zoroastrianism, and in the philosophical religion of Babylon Chaldea and Assyria. H P B traces these sequences for us in ISIS UNVEILED and in The SECRET DOCTRINE as well as in several of her articles. ( see LE PHARE DE L'INCONNU.") You speak about numbers as there are many combinations. For instance, in the early Theosophical literature the "principles" were numbered and not always assigned "names" or "labels" One wonders why. Was it expediency? The Metaphysical involution of SPIRIT into Matter is traced and related to number and geometrical symbols again (S D I 4-6). Matter is shown to be the end product of indwelling ever directing fields of force. The "atom" is not solid, and it is deemed to have an eternal invariable existence by our Science -- since to its properties are ascribed, ultimately, all phenomena. Was it to draw attention to the whole teaching and not isolated applications? Is it because the teaching of Theosophy will be found to underlie and interpenetrate all aspects of life-support? After all, Nature was here long before we were born, and our dependence on air, water, food, and shelter are parts of the great "gifts" of Nature, provided for our continued existence. But shall we say that the 60 to 90 years of our present lives give us enough time to learn everything about NATURE and her UNIVERSE, even of our Earth and our own selves? No. So the proposition that man's SPIRIT-SOUL is an immortal (LIKE THE ATOM) is one offered for consideration by Theosophy. It is further reinforced by massive evidence adduced in Theosophical literature, primarily in the writings of H P B. We need to familiarize ourselves wit them and test them for reasonableness. Was it to emphasize the arithmetical and geometrical (hence astronomical and astrological) correlation between the Universal Principles and man's ? ( see S D I 86-92, 361, 433-4, 570 -575, 200-2, 242-5; S D II 36, 39, 73-4, 598-605, 573-589, 590..., 22, ) It is said that the stars and the Zodiac are for us a kind of universal clock -- they record the extent and periodical return of cycles. Hence the relationship between a Nation, a "race," an individual, or a continent, or the whole world, to cycles. Hence there is a continual validation of true astrology, if we can locate it. Cycles are not only physical (witness in the past few days large earthquakes all over the world - Alaska, Italy, Venezuela, Sicily, Pakistan and India,) but they can be psychic or physiological, of disease or of abnormal thinking, etc... Or financial, as witness since September last (2001) the world-wide fears that have caused severe market declines, and the "flight" of "money" out of "stocks" into less affected areas of security: Bank and Government securities -- and so on, all kinds of cycles are seen at work. Now we fear the periodically return of the 'flu and of possibly malaria and small-pox. (Which are still endemic in the "East.") In Theosophy, is our attention drawn to numbers, and cycles to show how Nature geometrizes ? (S D I 433-4, 639; II 36, ) because of the great HARMONY ( S D II 622,) and an Evolutionary PLAN (S D I 38, 339, 127, 104, 280-1, 326-9, II 58-9, 79, that pre-dates the actual beginning of "manifestation. ?" Why would our particular period of manifestation not be logically the reincarnation of an earlier period where it seems evident the continuous struggle to become wise and to improve proceeded just as it does broadly now? The average person of today is aware of physical cycles, and of financial ones. I hope reference to these pages might help, Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: wry Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:23 AM To: Subject: Re:. Buddhism and Numbers Hi , Thanks for an interesting reply. One of the reasons I put this out here is that I have read again and again on theosophy lists a comparison of Theosophy to Buddhism, and recently, the talk from a Theosophsy Convention (theos-world newsletter) stating that Theosophy is nothing other than Mahayana Buddhism (it is not, but that's ok.) I just occasionally like to try to clarify this, little by little. I'm glad that someone thinks my understanding of Buddhism is "profound." I think you are gently pulling my leg. In any case, I am an eclectic Buddhist, as I do not chant or practice rituals. I agree with you that there is much similarity between Buddhism and many of the great spiritual teachings of humanity, including Christianity. Maybe sometime I will put on here some past writings on this subject which I have sent to other lists. I am actually a religious fanatic of sorts, though I do not believe in much of anything, as I have always, from childhood, been deeply attracted to anything that has to so with religion, and have never been too particular about which religion it is. At an early age, twenty-seven, I found Krishnamurti, and in the last fifteen years, an interest in science has come into the picture. Buddhism is a religion that is designed, as any effective religion, for people of many different levels of understanding. But this religion is more contemporary, in a sense, as the idea of dependent origination, is taught literally, as well as allegorically, whereas in other religions, such as Christianity, one can only find allegorical reference to this, and it is so encoded that most would miss it. I do not know if you read a message I put out here some time ago, in response to Dallas, in which I mentioned numbers, but I do not believe a complete understanding or experiencing of the forces of the trinity is possible to a human being. Different numbers have been used to represent a human being in different traditions. I suggested that the number six might be a better place to start than the number three, as we are always in relationship. In Mahayana Buddhism, a kind of samadhi-like meditative state where everything sort of seems to be standing still (behind everything moving) is not the end of this great teaching, but actually where it begins. The aim, as in all major spiritual practices, including Taoism and Alchemy, is to take the "seed" of man and elevate in such a way that it is not disseminated or broken apart and scattered to the winds, but to raise it up whole in such a way that a transformation of the individual is affected in that the generative quality of the whole seed becomes the quality of the whole person. The problem with a primal cause, whatever it is and however it is conceived, is that its mental conception generates a split, and then it is NOT THAT. It is the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism that nothing is unchanging, but that everything is interconnected and MOVING, and therefore there cannot be a primal cause. This is demonstrated through logic as a KEY part of the teaching and is called DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. One can try to make the technical point that EMPTINESS is not moving, but all emptiness means is that nothing exists on its own side, independent of everything else. Obviously, a full realization of emptiness leads to a state of deep meditation. The aim is the CONNECT the two understandings of EMPTINESS and DEPENDENT ORIGINATION in such a way that they are inseparable. When this occurs, it is said that this is liberation. I would not know for sure, but I am beginning to have a glimmer of understanding, as "through a glass darkly," about what this is and how it works IN THE BODY. Presumably, after this understanding is complete, one would enter a very small society of Mahayana Buddhists or whomever, as one would then be able to generate the Non-convention or major boddhichitta and could rightfully be called a Mahayana Buddhist, which I cannot yet call myself. Even to write this, about the possibility of becoming a Mahayana Buddhist sends a thrill of joy through my body. Re. what you refer to as "the eternality of the Absolute rootless root of all," there are different kinds of Buddhism for different kinds of people. For some Buddhists, perhaps, though I am not even sure, this might not be a contradiction, but for a Mahayana Buddhist, this would. There is no way to approach certain material except by A total OBLITERATION. This is what Sufi mystics refer to when they speak of the lover being a slave to the Sultan or the moth being consumed by the flame. When this obliteration is complete, there is NO RECORD of it having occurred. At this POINT and only at this POINT, certain OPERATIONS can be PREFORMED. It then (presumably) becomes not about helping sentient creatures, but about doing the best for ONESELF. This is BEING, but one would also need KNOWLEDGE. One could perhaps be called quantum and the other macroscopic, or whatever, but to translate all this into ones daily life, in my opinion, it ultimately needs to be reduced to a daily practice of sweeping the floor consciously. Hope this makes some kind of sense. Responses can sometimes seem exaggerated as they are written down. I will try to approach this subject a little bit more in the language of science sometime (and somewhere) in the next few weeks. Sincerely, Wry cut From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 04 17:47:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 5 Nov 2002 01:47:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 31108 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 01:47:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 01:47:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 01:47:08 -0000 Received: from pool0798.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.33] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 188so0-0004K9-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:47:00 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Punya Why "do good?" Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:43:23 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 4th 202 Dear Larry: I am not looking for an antonym to "sin." or a translation. I am looking at the thing: "A SIN" itself, as it requires a description, especially when going from one language (Hindustani) to another. Since, in our use of English we do not have the concept (or rather have excised its true theological meaning) we have only an approximation. MERIT sounds too much as though one did "good" under constraint (or a threat), or in hope of a "reward." Is that a correct attitude? We assume he is working in an ideal firm where the rule is: "the laborer is worthy of his hire." A man is hired in a business to perform a job. He does that job repeatedly and is called trustworthy. He deviates and then is reprimanded and corrected. He persists in "wrong doing" -- either overtly or covertly, when this is discovered (after warnings) he is fired. [ Note: In this illustration he sins repeatedly against himself by being dishonest, and against the firm employing him by not providing them with an honest return on their investment in him, and the time frame of work he has contracted to do in work for them. All recognize he deserves reformation, correction, and has some recompense owed to the firm for the time he has embezzled, from his responsibilities. This is sin. ] Can this be wiped away? In our daily experience in this world of pragmatism, and the condoning of irresponsibility and irregularities it usually is. And this is called "leeway." [Note: the "trustworthy man," if he has other qualities such as patience, honesty, tolerance, interest in teaching skills to others, may be "promoted" to a "Supervisor," and, so on up the scale to top management. We suppose the sky is the limit and that existing "top management" is willing to recognize and "reward" such an individual with increasing responsibilities. In this illustration he does "no sin." ] Theosophy views humanity as such a "man hired to do a job -- as a group." What is the work that belongs specifically to humanity? I would say: First: to know his own nature, character and capabilities. Value them honestly and strive to improve them. Second, to know the field in which he is working and the details that provide for the knowledge of doing a job well. Third: carrying out ones work at the highest level one is capable of. This is what we are all trying to find out. Why have we lost a clear cut view of responsibility ? Lets turn to "sin." The dictionary definition of SIN is: "Transgression of the laws of God. An offence in general, misdemeanor. To violate the divine (or human rights, law, or propriety) law by actual transgression, or by neglect. To do or commit wrongly..." and so on. As I read it the following is evident. There is assumed to be a "God." (Powers, location of oversight, area, and work unknown and undefined.) There are LAWS ( undefined but in existence). There are offences ( in general, and we assume they are a deviation from, or a breaking of LAW.) Breaking Law is either deliberate with knowledge misapplied, or through ignorance. "Committing wrongly" appears to be a good definition. Knowledge misapplied is a definite evil, and sin is attached to the power released by its performance. Where does this "power" go? Who are its victims? If we depersonalize these "victims" (in our minds) we lose the importance of sinning. Theosophy teaches that the first and closest victims to every one of us are the little Monads that have aggregated to form our bodies and vehicles, in which our INTELLIGENCE resides and acts. Next, are all the rest of the Monads "out there," and also, of course, any actual "victim" such as a person or an entity to which we owe honesty, good faith, and cooperation in terms of the excellence of any responsibilities we may have towards them. In Theosophy there are NO STRANGERS or ALIENS. If "god's powers" include noticing and then reforming wrong that is done, it sounds very close to the action of KARMA. The method of doing this remains to be discovered, analyzed and some conclusion reached as to its effectiveness. If one assumes that the UNIVERSE is operated under strict laws of justice, and equal fairness to all, then "sin" is a deviation from those laws. This implies the freedom to choose to "break the rules" and thus a sin against NATURE originates. Every one, and everything is involved, and not a speck of space is devoid of other residents or responsibilities that are the common bonds between them and ourselves, at all times . Now the next question is why does "Man" have this power? Is it not that he is on the threshold of becoming a kind of "supervisor ?" I mean by this, an active assistant to Nature, and the development of more MINDS such as we have out of the aggregated "Monads of lesser experience" that surround us -- and which are, in effect, our "mind-children." If so, then the period in our eternal living is one where we prove we can be utterly harmless and cooperative, doing no harm under any circumstances to other beings of any degree of intelligence. This concept is the root of the practice of brotherhood and of cooperation, as COMPASSION to others. One could say we are in a desperate fight to change all aspects of PASSION in our natures into WISE COMPASSION. Theosophy says that all "bad" Karma starts -- in selfishness, hence, seeking to isolate itself, such a chooser, abandons the concept of brotherhood, charity, and fair dealing -- it thus creates a "bad" desire, and thought following bad desire and developing it ( Lower Manas or Kama-Manas comes into play ) the choice is finally expressed in words and deeds on the physical plane. I think these concepts need scrutiny and development, and I would like to see if we can give good reasons for MERIT and MERITORIOUS DEEDS. Best wishes, as always, Dallas =================== -----Original Message----- From: Larry Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:12 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: : Punya Why "do good?" Dear Dallas, I agree that from a theological perspective, developing VIRTUE in ones self is as important as performing MERITS. However, in this discussion, we are looking for the opposite of SIN, which I still believe is MERIT. As stated previously, if SIN is an action deserving of punishment (or "bad" KARMA) then MERIT is action deserving of reward ("good" KARMA) If we expand the concept of MERIT to include thought and feelings as well as action, then VIRTUE is indeed the word, but then we must also transcend SIN to include thoughts and feelings on that side, and that is no longer SIN, but VICE. To commit adultery is regarded as SIN, but to lust after someone is VICE. To lend a helping hand is MERIT, but to feel compassion and concern ones self about another is VIRTUE. Take my take on it anyway. Larry From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 04 18:54:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 5 Nov 2002 02:54:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 71479 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 02:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 02:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 02:54:49 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-20.look.ca ([216.154.45.163] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 188tr7-0003IO-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:54:17 +0000 Message-ID: <3DC73307.713375D1@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:55:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Universal Seekers Subject: new archeological discoveries Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Here's web site that might interest some people: www.grahamhancock.com Among other things, apparently he's found an undersea city bigger than Manhattan, and recovered many artifacts from it. Apparently the city is carbon dated as being many thousands of years older than anything in the model that mainstream archeologists subscribe to. I heard a portion of an interview with Graham Hancock on the radio today. I think he has a new book out about his undersea explorations. If I heard correctly, excerpts from that book are available on his web site. Speculatively, Mauri From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 05 01:10:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 45715 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:10:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: new archeological discoveries Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DC73307.713375D1@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 769 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach See Oct. 3e article: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/atlantiswt.html --- In theos-talk@y..., Mauri wrote: > Here's web site that might interest some people: > www.grahamhancock.com > > Among other things, apparently he's found an undersea > city bigger than Manhattan, and recovered many > artifacts from it. Apparently the city is carbon dated as > being many thousands of years older than anything in the > model that mainstream archeologists subscribe to. I > heard a portion of an interview with Graham Hancock > on the radio today. I think he has a new book out about > his undersea explorations. If I heard correctly, > excerpts from that book are available on his web site. > > Speculatively, > Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 05 02:08:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 10:08:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 98352 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 10:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 10:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 10:08:06 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1890cs-0006X4-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:08:02 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Unity and Group work Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 02:04:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000901c28450$343c1c80$bcd30b3f@idapingala> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 5 2002 Dear Wry and Friends: H P B in an old article [LE PHARE DE L'INCONNU -- "The Beacon Light on the Unknown" wrote: P. Let a dozen determined and united Theosophists get together. Let them work together, each one according to his taste, along this or another line of universal science, if he so prefers, just as long as each is in sympathy with his neighbor. This will be beneficial even to ordinary members who do not care for philosophical research. If such a group, selected on the basis of esoteric rules, were formed among mystics alone; if they pursued truth, helping each other with whatever light they may have, we guarantee that each member of such a group would make more progress in the sacred science in one year, than he would make in ten years on his own. P. Those who desire to succeed in abstract or practical Theosophy must remember that disunity is the first condition of failure. P. In Theosophy, what is required is emulation and not rivalry, otherwise, he who boasts of being the first, will be the last. In true Theosophy, it is the least who becomes the greatest. P. 440 ...unite in little groups of from three to seven...uneven in numbers... a group, however little cohesion it possesses, forming a single united body, wherein the senses and perceptions of those who work together complement and mutually help each other, one member supplying to another the quality in which he is wanting,--such a group will always end by becoming a perfect and invincible body. "Union is strength." P. "Preach altruism, keep unity, mutual understanding and harmony in your groups, all of you who place yourselves among the neophytes and the seekers after the ONE TRUTH," other Teachers tell us. "Without unity, and intellectual as well as psychic sympathy, you will arrive at nothing. He who sows discord, reaps the whirlwind." Fn. [Eliminate] the illusion of the personality of the Ego, placed by our egotism in the first rank...it is necessary to assimilate the whole of humanity, live by it, for it, and in it, in other terms, cease to be "one," and become "all" or the total. P. 438 Theosophy is a descendant in direct line of the great tree of universal GNOSIS, a tree ...which, ...gave shelter ...to all the temples and ...nations of the earth. That Gnosis represents the aggregate of all the sciences, the accumulated wisdom of all the gods and demi-gods incarnated in former times upon the earth...We believe in Avatars and in divine dynasties, in the epoch when there were, in fact, "giants upon the earth" P. 438 "What then is your religion or your belief?" ..."The TRUTH," we reply. The truth wherever we can find it...our greatest ambition [is]...to reconcile the different religious systems, to help each one to find the truth in his own religion, while obliging him to recognize it in that of his neighbour. P. 439 Theosophy being the way that leads to truth, in every religion, as in every science, occultism is, so to say, the touchstone and universal solvent. It is the... light thrown by this torch can be discerned only by the eye of the awakened soul--by our spiritual senses; it blinds the eye of the materialist. P. 444 Theosophy is synonymous with Gnana Vidya, and with the Brahma-Vidya of the Hindus, and again with the Dzyan of the trans-Himalayan adepts, the science of the true Raj-Yogis, who are much more accessible than one thinks. Fn. Vidya... the knowledge of Brahm, that is to say, of the God that contains all the gods. P. 439 [Who is a] saviour...He who dissipates the darkness of ignorance by the help of the torch of science, thus discovering to us the truth, deserves that title as a mark of our gratitude...Such an one awakens in our benumbed souls the faculty of distinguishing the true from the false, by kindling a divine flame, hitherto absent, and he has the right to our grateful worship, for he has become our creator. Additionally these seem to be wise ideas to consider: P. 440-1 Theosophy is the white ray, from which arise the seven colours of the solar spectrum, each human being assimilating one of these rays to a greater degree than the other six. It follows that seven persons, each imbued with his special ray, can help each other mutually. Having at their service the septenary bundle of rays, they have the seven forces of nature at their command. But it follows also that, to reach that end, the choosing of the seven persons who are to form a group, should be left to an expert,--to an initiate in the science of occult rays...[ But here ] esotericism runs the risk of being accused of mystification. Still, orthodox science furnishes a proof of the truth...and we find a corroboration in physical and materialistic astronomy. The sun is one, and its light shines for every one Fn. Symbology of colours. The Language of the prism, of which "the seven mother colours have each seven sons," that is to say, forty-nine shades or "sons" between the seven which graduated tints are so many letters or alphabetical characters. The language of colours has, therefore, fifty-six letters for the Initiate. Of these letters each septenary is absorbed by the mother colour, as each of the seven mother colours is absorbed finally in the white ray, Divine Unity symbolized by these colours. Fn. The senses, counting in the two mystic senses, are seven in Occultism; but an Initiate does not separate these senses from each other, any more than he separates his unity from Humanity. Every sense contains all the others P. 439 ...we have but to remember one thing: symbols of divine truths were not invented for the amusement of the ignorant; they are the alpha and omega of philosophic thought. P. 439 Having neither dogma nor ritual,--these two being but fetters, the material body which suffocates the soul,--we do not employ the "ceremonial magic" P. 439 Theosophy being the way that leads to truth, in every religion, as in every science, occultism is, so to say, the touchstone and universal solvent. It is the... light thrown by this torch can be discerned only by the eye of the awakened soul--by our spiritual senses; it blinds the eye of the materialist. P. 442 Theosophy...examines the reverse side of every apparent truth. It tests and analyses every fact put forward by physical science, looking only for the essence and the ultimate and occult constitution in every cosmical or physical manifestation, whether in the domain of ethics, intellect, or matter. In a word, Theosophy begins its researches where materialists finish theirs. P. 442-3 Theosophy, therefore, or rather the occult sciences it studies, is something more than simple metaphysics...Theosophy rejects the testimony of the physical senses entirely, if the latter be not based upon that afforded by the psychic and spiritual perceptions. Even in the case of the most highly developed clairvoyance and clairaudience, the final testimony of both must be rejected, unless... like that of our five senses, [it] should receive the imprimatur of the sixth and seventh senses of the divine ego, before a fact can be accepted by the true occultist. P. 443 ...physical science has not made a step towards the knowledge of the real nature and constitution of matter P. 439 ...we have but to remember one thing: symbols of divine truths were not invented for the amusement of the ignorant; they are the alpha and omega of philosophic thought. Fn. [Eliminate] the illusion of the personality of the Ego, placed by our egotism in the first rank...it is necessary to assimilate the whole of humanity, live by it, for it, and in it, in other terms, cease to be "one," and become "all" or the total. P. 442 Theosophy...examines the reverse side of every apparent truth. It tests and analyses every fact put forward by physical science, looking only for the essence and the ultimate and occult constitution in every cosmical or physical manifestation, whether in the domain of ethics, intellect, or matter. In a word, Theosophy begins its researches where materialists finish theirs. P. 442-3 Theosophy, therefore, or rather the occult sciences it studies, is something more than simple metaphysics...Theosophy rejects the testimony of the physical senses entirely, if the latter be not based upon that afforded by the psychic and spiritual perceptions. Even in the case of the most highly developed clairvoyance and clairaudience, the final testimony of both must be rejected, unless... like that of our five senses, [it] should receive the imprimatur of the sixth and seventh senses of the divine ego, before a fact can be accepted by the true occultist. P. 443 ...physical science has not made a step towards the knowledge of the real nature and constitution of matter P. 445 "How can one learn this [Mystery] language?" ...study all religions and compare them with one another. To learn thoroughly requires a teacher, a guru; to succeed by oneself needs more than genius: it demands inspiration...teaching the common origin of all religions, and a common religion...the intention of the great Nazarene was to restore the sublime science of ancient wisdom in all its primitive integrity P. 446 This numerical signification is one of the branches of the mystery language, or the ancient sacerdotal language. This was taught in the "Lesser Mysteries," but the language itself was reserved for the high initiates alone. The candidate must...take an oath never to divulge the higher doctrines to any one to whom the preliminary ones had not already been imparted...and...was not ready for initiation. P. 67 [ancient libraries beyond the Himalayas -- repositories of the "intellectual treasures"... and guarded by] ...the [Brothers, the] primitive interpreters of the divine Wisdom... P. 67-8 Our Society is the tree of Brotherhood...[members] it depends on them to make ...a bridge destined in the near future to carry the humanity of the new cycle beyond the muddy waters of the deluge of hopeless materialism...stretching to them a plank of safety. P. 68 ...the triple desire of the T S... Full and entire liberty of conscience allowed to all, fraternity reigning between the rich and the poor, equality recognized in theory and practice...The great reform must take place without any social shocks... [diversity] is due but to the personal Karma of each human being. P. 88 ...the immortal individuality...in him, emanates from the same divine essence, as does that of his neighbours...the philosophic truth that every Ego begins and ends by being the indivisible Whole, [he] can not love his neighbor less than he does himself. But, until this becomes a religious truth, no such reform can take place. P. 69 Let those who are strongest show the road to those who are weaker. -----Original Message----- From: wry Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 2:19 PM To: Subject: Re: Unity Group work Do Theosophists ever work together as a group to create a certain atmosphere which encourages enquiry and inspires the development of an active force in individuals that is conducive to genuine spirituality, or is that pretty silly, too? What do you think? Wry From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Nov 05 05:25:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 13:25:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 66979 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 13:25:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 13:25:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 13:25:44 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-41.look.ca ([216.154.45.232] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1893i8-00079n-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:25:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC7C6F2.D018E0DF@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:26:10 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Universal Seekers , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List Subject: re Graham Hancock's approach, advocacy, research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Here's an excerpt from Graham Hancock's web site: http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld1.php Online Introduction to Underworld >From Fingerprints of the Gods to Underworld An Essay on Methods By Graham Hancock The central claim of my 1995 book Fingerprints of the Gods is not that there was but that there could have been a lost civilisation, which flourished and was destroyed in remote antiquity. And I wrote the book, quite deliberately, not as a work of science but as a work of advocacy. I felt that the possibility of a lost civilisation had not been adequately explored or tested by mainstream scholarship. I set myself the task of rehabilitating it by gathering together, and passionately championing, all the best evidence and arguments in its favour. In the early 1990's when I was researching Fingerprints there were a number of new ideas in the air that seemed to me to have an important bearing on the lost civilisation debate. These included Robert Bauval's Orion correlation, Rand and Rose Flem-Ath's work on Antarctica and earth-crust displacement, and the geological case presented by John Anthony West and Robert Schoch that the Great Sphinx of Giza might be much older than had hitherto been thought. At the same time I was aware of a huge reservoir of popular literature, going back more than a century to the time of Ignatius Donnelly, in which the case for a lost civilisation had been put again and again, in many different ways and from many different angles. I knew that not a single word of this vast literature had ever been accepted by mainstream scholars who remained steadfast in their view that the history of civilisation is known and includes no significant forgotten episodes. But, I thought, what if the scholars have got it wrong? What if we've forgotten something important in our story? What if we are a species with amnesia? After all, scientists are now pretty sure that anatomically modern humans, just like us, have been around for at least the last 120,000 years. Yet our "history" begins 5000 years ago with the first cities and the first written records. And the prehistory of this process has presently only been traced back (often quite tentatively) to the end of the last Ice Age around 10,000 years ago when it's thought that mankind began to make the transition from hunter-gathering to food production. So what were we doing during the previous 110,000 years? ===========snip From tomkan@earthlink.net Tue Nov 05 05:27:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: tomkan@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 13:27:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 39411 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 13:27:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 13:27:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 13:27:16 -0000 Received: from sdn-ap-021neomahp0432.dialsprint.net ([63.191.113.178] helo=dellhodges) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1893il-0007Ir-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 05:26:20 -0800 Message-ID: <003501c284cf$131c1760$b271bf3f@dellhodges> To: "EVERYONE ANYWAY" Subject: VOTE TODAY --- TUESDAY NOVEMBER 5TH 2002: Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:26:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "THOMAS A HODGES" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95741141 X-Yahoo-Profile: tkansasboy DEAR FRIENDS AND FAMILY ON THE INTERNET: TODAY IS TUESDAY NOVEMBER 5TH 2002. IT IS ELECTION DAY, SOMETHING IN SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT IS A RARE PRIVILEGE --- THE RIGHT TO VOTE YOUR FUTURE DEPENDS UPON YOUR VOTE YOUR COUNTRIES FUTURE DEPENDS UPON YOUR VOTE THE LIVES OF YOUR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN DEPENDS UPON YOUR VOTE TAKE "TIME OUT" TODAY TO CAST YOUR VOTE THE AMOUNT OF TIME YOU SPEND GOING TO THE VOTING BOOTH IS PROBABLY LESS TIME THAN YOU SPEND WATCHING A TV QUIZ OR GAME SHOW YET YOUR VOTE CAN MEAN SO MUCH TO THE FUTURE OF AMERICA TAKE TIME OUT TODAY TO CAST YOUR VOTE BLESSINGS, THOMAS OF KANSAS From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 05 05:38:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 13:38:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 85316 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 13:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 13:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 13:38:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 13:38:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 13:38:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Abu Ali Loses His Leg, Needs New Car Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 360 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.235.228 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs The great Muslim religious leader Abu Ali has recently gone on a one way trip to his beloved moon, courtesy of a Hellfire missile allegedly sent his way by agents of the evil infidel. Will his fellow moonies keep the war against the evil infidel going? They have done it for 1300 years. http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/04/yemen.blast/index.html From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 05 07:58:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 15:58:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 14634 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 15:58:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 15:58:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 15:58:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 15:58:48 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:58:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: re Graham Hancock's approach, advocacy, research Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DC7C6F2.D018E0DF@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 14610 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach The contrary willingness to accept untested personal testimony as public truth is at the heart of the irrationalism that confronts us today. Ours is an evangelical culture. So many people convinced that they've been saved by Jesus, abused by Satanists, cured by homeopathy or thelaying on of hands, abducted by aliens, or protected by angels seek public acknowledgment that their convictions are true. Imbued with messianic fervor, or simply seeking 'validation,' they are not content to hoard the truth; they are compelled to share it and convert the unenlightened, relying on the force of their own intense emotions. Generally, the only proof offered for a fantastic belief is the passion it inspires inbelievers.... The celebration of subjectivity discourages demands for corroboration. Let someone testify with great vehemence to an after- death experience, a foray into past lives, or an abusive sexual encounter in childhood, only recently recalled, and courtesy compels us to listen deferentially. A lingering cult of victimhood lends credibility to tales of abuse, and the etiquette of a confessional society deters cross- examination. Equally vehement expressions of doubt or disbelief may even be considered abusive. The mores of personal development are naturally relativistic: Everyone has his or her reality. A fact is simply what is true for you. Consider some of her data: After citing some figures related to main-stream religions, she continues: "As religion scholar Robert Wuthnow has observed, 'one kind of belief in supernatural phenomena reinforces another.' Roughly half of all Catholics and Protestants surveyed by Gallup in 1990 believed in ESP; nearly as many believed in psychic healing. Fifty-three percent of Catholics and 40 percent of Protestants professed belief in UFOs, and about one-quarter put their faith in astrology. A 1996 Newsweek poll found that 41 percent of people surveyed believed in astrology, and 66 percent believed in ESP. Forty- nine percent believed that the government is concealing information confirming that UFOs are real or that aliens have visited the earth. Over 25 percent of people surveyed by Gallup in 1994 professed belief in reincarnation and the possibility of communicating with the dead. Twenty-five percent of people surveyed by Newsweek in 1996 said they believed in channeling." "Not all believers in the ubiquity of abuse shared this particular view of the impending apocalypse. But, in some quarters, a surprising majority -- 70 percent of people surveyed by Redbook in 1994 -- believed in the existence of abusive satanic cults. They believed that 'at least some people who claim they were sexually abused by satanic cults as children, but repressed the memories for years, are telling the truth.' Thirty-two percent of Redbook's respondents rationalized the absence of proof by explaining that 'the FBI and the police ignore evidence because they don't want to admit the cults exist.' An additional 22 percent opined that 'cult leaders brainwash their victims so they won't tell.' A 1994 government report finding no evidence to substantiate widespread rumors of satanic abuse could easily have been dismissed as a cover-up, like official investigations of UFO sightings. Much has been made of the failure of this country's educational system to measure up to others in international comparisons. If we take into account the American belief systems exposed in this book, I consider us fortunate even to be within hailing distance of other nations. The deep concern that I am left with is: What should be done? Ms. Kaminer only exposes the problems. Neither she nor anyone else -- and certainly not our government or our schools -- seems to have the power to do more in the face of this tidal wave of individual irrational belief and behavior. But at least now they are out in the open. At the start of this century, many intellectuals believed that by the year 2000 religion would have died off. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. According to polls, 95 percent of Americans believe in God. 59 percent say that religion is very important in their lives, and another 29 percent rate it as fairly important. Only 4 percent identify themselves as agnostics or atheists. Sixty-eight percent belong to a church or synagogue and nearly half of our populace, 46 percent, describe themselves as born-again. Why, in this post-Enlightenment age -- an era supposedly dominated by secular reason and science -- have religious beliefs not only survived, but flourished? Why people believe in God is the central question of Michael Shermer's book "How We Believe." Director of the Skeptics Society and an ex-born-again Christian himself, Shermer has a general fascination with belief; this book might be seen as a companion to his previous "Why People Believe Weird Things," a portmanteau study of "weird" beliefs from ESP to Holocaust denial. Though Shermer abandoned religion in his own life, he retains, he says, a deep appreciation of its role in other peoples' lives. But despite that appreciation, like many contemporary scientists who try to explain religion, he's leaving out evidence and missing a really critical point. In 1998, along with MIT social scientist Frank Sulloway, Shermer set out to conduct a survey on why people believe in God. The results were both ntriguing and surprising. The number one reason given (29 percent of respondents) was the apparently good design of nature or the universe. The number two reason was a feeling of God being present in everyday life (21 percent). In third place (at just 10 percent) was the answer that belief in God is comforting, consoling or relieving. The fourth place answer (another 10 percent) was that the Bible says so. One unexpected result here is that only one in 10 people gave the consolation response. That is significant because so many secular intellectuals, particularly those opposed to religion, seem to assume that the desire for psychological comfort is the primary engine of religious faith. Over the past decade we have witnessed a boomlet in books by scientists decrying the rise of fundamentalist and New Age religious beliefs (along with other "irrationalisms" such as belief in ESP, psychic powers and past lives). At the core of these books -- see Nicholas Humphrey's "Leaps of Faith," Carl Sagan's "The Demon- Haunted World" and Richard Dawkins' "Unweaving the Rainbow" -- can usually be found the view that all such beliefs are childish searches for consolation in the face of death and life's injustice. Wendy Kaminer's "Sleeping with Extraterrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and the Perils of Piety," a well-intentioned though curmudgeonly tirade against various forms of "irrational" belief currently sweeping our nation. Halfway through her book, Kaminer trots out the view that "people believe in deities because they would find life unbearable without them." But as Shermer's study reveals, consolation is not the driving force of many Americans' faith. the public sphere has been hopelessly contaminated with piety (much of it spurious and hypocritical), woolly-minded New Age spirituality, superstition about angels and aliens and other dangerous forms of irrationality. This promiscuous outpouring of belief, she fears, is corrupting our ability to form rational judgments -- never an easy task under the best of circumstances -- and compromising the Enlightenment basis of our republic. A fellow at Radcliffe College best known for her scathing analysis of the recovery movement, "I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional," Kaminer can think and write with bracing clarity. And a great deal of what she has to say in her new collection of essays, "Sleeping With Extra-Terrestrials," badly needs saying. With virtuecrats of the right, center and even left exhorting us into the churches and synagogues and sinful politicians indulging in spectacles of prayer and penitence, it's a positive relief to encounter a public intellectual with the courage to wonder whether all this old-time religion is really good for us. Kaminer has assumed the lonely role of skeptic in a nation of believers; she frequently ventures onto daytime TV and talk radio to be pilloried as a soulless heathen. Actually, though, her personal attitude toward religion is complicated. She describes herself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. Sometimes she seems envious of the faithful, at other times derisive. As she struggles to define her own beliefs, she retreats into negatives and double negatives: "I'm not oblivious to the comfort that supernaturalism may provide or unimpressed by the powerful human impulse to believe; nor am I utterly secure in my disbelief." Kaminer observes that the '90s revival of faith is so sectarian in character that it actually threatens true religious freedom. (In Bible Belt school districts where prayer has been introduced in defiance of the courts, Jewish children have been persecuted and harassed.) And she argues that the equation of religion with virtue has driven political debate in illogical directions on a host of issues. The immeasurably destructive war on drugs she regards as a "faith-based antivice crusade." The 1996 welfare-reform package actually began channeling federal funds directly to houses of worship, a breach of the church-state firewall so dramatic it even troubled some religious leaders; but as Kaminer writes, these concerns were drowned out by a consensus that only churches and synagogues could "provide welfare recipients with spiritual healing, which almost everyone, left and right, assumed that they needed." Somewhat immodestly, Kaminer implicitly compares herself to H.L. Mencken, Mark Twain and other acerbic critics of the American tendency toward dopey credulity. And as long as she stays on the topic of religion and the idiocies it introduces into public life -- fending off the communitarian left on one hand and the neo-Victorian right on the other -- the thrusts and parries of her reasoning remain worthy of these forebears. But when she turns her attention to New Age spirituality, and then to popular feminism, pseudo-science, therapy and the Internet, her writing becomes increasingly shapeless and uncentered. Too often she attacks easy and oft-punctured targets, from past-life therapists and recovered-memory experts to angel channelers and UFO abductees. But the fact that Americans believe all kinds of improbable and unprovable things isn't exactly news. (Did Kaminer's block just get wired for cable?) The USA was first settled by fanatics and has always incubated eccentric varieties of belief -- there was never a golden age of American rationalism. Brian: I thank John Hoopes for bringing the above to my attention. John is currently writing a paper on the common, underlying concept of "the lost civilization" that runs through Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, and other areas of "speculative metaphysics". This concept is one that is as much a denial of conventional archaeological knowledge as creationism is of evolutionary theory. It is based on the idea that there was a utopian society in the distant past that was destroyed in order to produce a new utopia in the future (the New Jerusalem, Atlantis Rising, New Age vision).Just as evangelical Christianity rejects disbelief in the divinity of Jesus, the metaphysical esoterics reject disbelief in the lost civilization. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., Mauri wrote: > Here's an excerpt from Graham Hancock's web site: > http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld1.php > > > Online Introduction to Underworld > From Fingerprints of the Gods to Underworld > > An Essay on Methods > By Graham Hancock > > The central claim of my 1995 book Fingerprints of > the Gods is not that there was but that there could have > been a lost civilisation, which flourished and was > destroyed in remote antiquity. And I wrote the book, > quite deliberately, not as a work of science but as a work > of advocacy. I felt that the possibility of a lost civilisation > had not been adequately explored or tested by > mainstream scholarship. I set myself the task of > rehabilitating it by gathering together, and passionately > championing, all the best evidence and arguments in its > favour. > > In the early 1990's when I was researching > Fingerprints there were a number of new ideas in the air > that seemed to me to > have an important bearing on the lost civilisation > debate. These included Robert Bauval's Orion > correlation, Rand and Rose > Flem-Ath's work on Antarctica and earth-crust > displacement, and the geological case presented by John > Anthony West and > Robert Schoch that the Great Sphinx of Giza might > be much older than had hitherto been thought. > > At the same time I was aware of a huge reservoir of > popular literature, going back more than a century to the > time of Ignatius > Donnelly, in which the case for a lost civilisation > had been put again and again, in many different ways and > from many different > angles. I knew that not a single word of this vast > literature had ever been accepted by mainstream scholars > who remained > steadfast in their view that the history of civilisation > is known and includes no significant forgotten episodes. > > But, I thought, what if the scholars have got it > wrong? > > What if we've forgotten something important in our > story? > > What if we are a species with amnesia? > > After all, scientists are now pretty sure that > anatomically modern humans, just like us, have been > around for at least the last > 120,000 years. > > Yet our "history" begins 5000 years ago with the > first cities and the first written records. And the > prehistory of this process > has presently only been traced back (often quite > tentatively) to the end of the last Ice Age around 10,000 > years ago when it's > thought that mankind began to make the transition > from hunter-gathering to food production. > > So what were we doing during the previous 110,000 > years? > ===========snip From nemonemini@aol.com Tue Nov 05 08:02:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nemonemini@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 16:02:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 23797 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 16:02:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 16:02:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 16:02:18 -0000 Received: from Nemonemini@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.83.232877e9 (4184) for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:02:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <83.232877e9.2af9457c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:02:04 EST Subject: Consciousness and Evolution Review Note on Pinker's the Blank Slate To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 180 From: nemonemini@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=9104744 X-Yahoo-Profile: nemonemini Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker Confusing history and evolution A basic confusion in most evolutionary theories lies in their tacit mixing of domains, and their inability to either unify or contrast history and evolution. We need a theory that can show how man's actions in history evolve in relation to values, and this in relation to possible scenarios of the Paleolithic. Darwin's theory is incapable of providing that transitional mixture and nosedives into its 'slow change' conservatism applied to modern politics (the left is often no better). Such things ought to be embarrasing but instead they pass as science. Darwinism especially suffers this problem as the 'value of natural selection' as emergentist process is misapplied to value issues, speculation restated as fact, and the result is the bedlam of ideological entanglement in the 'blank slate/human nature' debate as this betrays its ideological character at every point, starting with the now archetypical 'Rousseau bashing' of the sociobiologists who have missed the point about the Noble Savage. However, the actual issue of the blank slate is slightly different and its extreme form is fairly well challenged here by Pinker. The genetic revolution, however, is still a work in progress, so what's in fact is the point? But one can only say good riddance to such an extreme view as the Blank Slate in its straw man version, and shrug at the suggestion that something like a 'human nature' has a genetic component, mindful that for all its flaws the blank slate stance was a justified caution near the catastrophic abuse of Darwinian racism characteristic of this century. This field is dangerous, and has a criminal record, and Pinker's indignation at our caution is not really justified. Having declared in part for human nature, we should ask who can define it, and how, and how did its definition become outright political football? The basic issue is the inadequacy of Darwin's theory of natural selection. Without that mechanism, reask the question, What is human nature, please? Millennia of men, for example, have held beliefs in the soul, and the technocratic definition of man, which Rousseau foresaw with dread, and speaking oneself as a secularist, is simply presumptuous in the extreme if it thinks that Darwinian selectionism can settle this issue in the negative. The crackpot secularism thinking it has Darwinian grounds to outlaw these 'superstitions' will end in a collision. The question is not even spiritual in its Buddhist version, the material soul being an aspect of quite another 'evolutionary psychology', fully atheist and materialist, as seen in the ancient Jainism. By the way, how and when did such commonsensical evolutionary psychologies evolve themselves, to be visible at such an early date? The point is that we know virtually nothing about the full scope of the true version of the Descent of Man. These are the fatal limits of Darwinism. We should not be confusing the theory of how things evolved, especially if their evidence is inadequate, with how things should be now and in the future, or the result is the flaunting of wretched whiggery so evident in Pinker's denial of ideology, with its standard debunking of the 'utopian nonsense'.Reviewing books on evolution can become repetitive: it is always the same problem, natural selection run riot as an explanatory device of theory. Thus it is tempting to join the fray on particulars, but this results in chaotification of discourse, a characteristic of the Blank Slate proponents, now in retreat, seemingly, in the genetic revolution. Since the technocratic redefinition of man has succeeded in imposing this Darwinian belief system, with insufficient evidence, one feels a sense of helplessness in joining the fray. One can only say, be wary. The nature of man, and his human nature, cannot be determined properly with Darwin's theory. Since this point can no longer be defended properly in public, one simply goes underground like a Buddhist. This is said as a challenge to the sociobiological triumphalism so evident in this otherwise interesting book. Such an attitude is mostly the result of its own overpromotion, and a factor in its success is precisely the appeal to a version of conservatism that transmits Burkean views of Rousseau. This joke isn't very funny, and Marxists have themselves failed to sort out the confusion. The question, re Rousseau, is not the blank slate, but the actual urgency of 'real change' against resistance, whether external or internal. It is pointless to lambast utopian Marxism, if the same argument could, and certainly was, applied to the revolutionary appearance of democracy. It is worth noting the suspicious resemblance of the sociobiologists' views to those of Hume. What has research changed here? John Landon Website on the eonic effect http://eonix.8m.com nemonemini@eonix.8m.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 05 08:12:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 16:12:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 22636 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 16:12:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 16:12:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 16:12:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 16:12:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 16:12:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Consciousness and Evolution Review Note on Pinker's the Blank Slate Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83.232877e9.2af9457c@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5577 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Interresting read what you send ! Have you read the debate between Pinker and Seligmann ? See: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/humancond.html Look forward to your opinion. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., nemonemini@a... wrote: > The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature > by Steven Pinker > > Confusing history and evolution > > A basic confusion in most evolutionary theories lies in their tacit mixing of > domains, and their inability to either unify or contrast history and > evolution. We need a theory that can show how man's actions in history evolve > in relation to values, and this in relation to possible scenarios of the > Paleolithic. Darwin's theory is incapable of providing that transitional > mixture and nosedives into its 'slow change' conservatism applied to modern > politics (the left is often no better). Such things ought to be embarrasing > but instead they pass as science. Darwinism especially suffers this problem > as the 'value of natural selection' as emergentist process is misapplied to > value issues, speculation restated as fact, and the result is the bedlam of > ideological entanglement in the 'blank slate/human nature' debate as this > betrays its ideological character at every point, starting with the now > archetypical 'Rousseau bashing' of the sociobiologists who have missed the > point about the Noble Savage. > However, the actual issue of the blank slate is slightly different and its > extreme form is fairly well challenged here by Pinker. The genetic > revolution, however, is still a work in progress, so what's in fact is the > point? > But one can only say good riddance to such an extreme view as the Blank Slate > in its straw man version, and shrug at the suggestion that something like a > 'human nature' has a genetic component, mindful that for all its flaws the > blank slate stance was a justified caution near the catastrophic abuse of > Darwinian racism characteristic of this century. This field is dangerous, and > has a criminal record, and Pinker's indignation at our caution is not really > justified. Having declared in part for human nature, we should ask who can > define it, and how, and how did its definition become outright political > football? The basic issue is the inadequacy of Darwin's theory of natural > selection. Without that mechanism, reask the question, What is human nature, > please? Millennia of men, for example, have held beliefs in the soul, and the > technocratic definition of man, which Rousseau foresaw with dread, and > speaking oneself as a secularist, is simply presumptuous in the extreme if it > thinks that Darwinian selectionism can settle this issue in the negative. The > crackpot secularism thinking it has Darwinian grounds to outlaw these > 'superstitions' will end in a collision. The question is not even spiritual > in its Buddhist version, the material soul being an aspect of quite another > 'evolutionary psychology', fully atheist and materialist, as seen in the > ancient Jainism. By the way, how and when did such commonsensical > evolutionary psychologies evolve themselves, to be visible at such an early > date? The point is that we know virtually nothing about the full scope of the > true version of the Descent of Man. These are the fatal limits of Darwinism. > We should not be confusing the theory of how things evolved, especially if > their evidence is inadequate, with how things should be now and in the > future, or the result is the flaunting of wretched whiggery so evident in > Pinker's denial of ideology, with its standard debunking of the 'utopian > nonsense'.Reviewing books on evolution can become repetitive: it is always > the same problem, natural selection run riot as an explanatory device of > theory. Thus it is tempting to join the fray on particulars, but this results > in chaotification of discourse, a characteristic of the Blank Slate > proponents, now in retreat, seemingly, in the genetic revolution. Since the > technocratic redefinition of man has succeeded in imposing this Darwinian > belief system, with insufficient evidence, one feels a sense of helplessness > in joining the fray. One can only say, be wary. The nature of man, and his > human nature, cannot be determined properly with Darwin's theory. Since this > point can no longer be defended properly in public, one simply goes > underground like a Buddhist. > This is said as a challenge to the sociobiological triumphalism so evident in > this otherwise interesting book. Such an attitude is mostly the result of its > own overpromotion, and a factor in its success is precisely the appeal to a > version of conservatism that transmits Burkean views of Rousseau. This joke > isn't very funny, and Marxists have themselves failed to sort out the > confusion. The question, re Rousseau, is not the blank slate, but the actual > urgency of 'real change' against resistance, whether external or internal. It > is pointless to lambast utopian Marxism, if the same argument could, and > certainly was, applied to the revolutionary appearance of democracy. It is > worth noting the suspicious resemblance of the sociobiologists' views to > those of Hume. What has research changed here? > > > > > > John Landon > Website on the eonic effect > http://eonix.8m.com > nemonemini@e... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 05 08:41:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 16:41:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 20191 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 16:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 16:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 16:41:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2002 16:41:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 16:41:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Whose "repeated hat-trick"??? says Daniel. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 11350 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Regarding pseudo historiansincluding "archeologists" inspired by neo- Theosophical ideas, there is nothing wrong if they really where to=20 examing the historical record. The goal of nearly every Historian and archaeologist in the world is not to prove that which is already known... but to prove something new.=20 There are, however, a group of authors who are trying=20 to force revisionist changes in the historical record , and they are doing it in unscientific fashions. ( An example in fact supported by certain Theosophical publications has been the History on Trial /Irving=20 standoff in London a few years ago) Rather than gathering evidence and proving their points to those who=20 actually understand the intricacies of the puzzle they take their message to the public, and plead with the public for support and=20 acceptance of their wondrous ideas -- their historical revisions. Theosophy often claims an "emanation" from Angels (Devas) and=20 other hierarchical beings (See "The Secret Doctrine"). Not unlike like Creationism, they use similar methods and techniques to "prove" their=20 conclusions; conclusions they have usually reached long before they=20 gathered any data or evidence. Their "Histories" are really not the true alternate that they are=20 peddling... it is their alternate methodology that allows them to make their cases . There is no such thing as "irrefutable science." The very process of Science depends critically on refutability, or falsifiability.=20 This whas send to me by someone to me, and is both applicable to=20 Daniels surprised question about his pseudo-historical methods, but also fits the question Mauri brought up and the popular atlantis and Lemurian searces in theosophical circles. 1. The typical Theosophical or Alternative Historian (AH, for short) did not obtain a degree, or even attempt to obtain an advanced degree,=20 in history, archaeology, anthropology, or any field related to the study of human history.=20 2. The AH has decided to study human history as a sideline, well after engaging him or herself in another career field.=20 3. The AH has made no meaningful or revolutionary contributions within his/her own career field.=20 4. The AH is usually self-portrayed as some kind of=20 swaggering/mystical/bright-eyed outsider, just looking for simple=20 answers to complex questions. Sometimes, this can take on an almost=20 religious aspect, where the AH declares him/herself the Guardian of the Truth, and shares it only with those who are properly initiated.=20 5. The AH's, as a rule, display and foster a tremendous disrespect for those who have dedicated their lives to the study of=20 human history.=20 6.Often a person who has made no meaningful contribution in his or her own career field takes a superficial glance at another field, finds things that are not understood by a large portion of the population, and then exploits that general ignorance in a way that is profitable, yet=20 demonstrably incorrect.=20 Somehow, the field of human history is seen to be something that is=20 wide open to interpretation (read "speculation"), and as such, it becomes the grounds upon which just about anybody can=20 consider themselves "an expert". After all, we ARE all human=85doesn't that qualify us for some special rights when it comes to writing books and creating theories on our origin, and that=20 Blavatskywas the teacher of her own "Masters" according to Caldwell ?=20 For example, an electrical engineer goes to Dendera and sees a=20 lightbulb. An egyptologist looks at the same relief and sees a lotus=20 blossom=85 just like the lotus blossoms that are portrayed in hundreds of tombs and monuments all over Egypt. The engineer then=20 writes a book, showing that the ancient Egyptians had lightbulbs. He has contributed to the knowledge base of the world, but only in his=20 exposition of the artwork=85 not in his conclusions about its interpretation. Therelief is still just a lotus blossom.=20 Now, I do not mean to imply that people who started off in one career=20 path absolutely cannot contribute anything meaningful to the=20 understanding of human history. However, it is not something one can=20 undertake without appropriate respect, understanding and appreciation=20 for the work that has gone before, accomplished by people who DID=20 devote their lives to the study of the past. We must remember that=20 Flinder Petrie was a surveyor. Howard Carter was an artist. Martin Isler is a sculptor. Colin Reader is a geological engineer. These peopledidn't set out to rewrite history=85 they set out to understand it. In the process of humbly studying and plodding along through copious=20 amounts of data, they did make a real and useful contribution to the=20 field.=20 It is ironic that most AH's have spent their entire adult lives working in another field, have been unable to revolutionize it in any way, and think that somehow the field of human history is different from their own chosen field. Odds are their field of expertise -- be it engineering, journalism, sales, computer science -- hasn't been studied=20 bynearly as many people for nearly the length of time that human history has been studied.=20 The above is on: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html By the way can Daniel Caldwell provide us some scans of one or two=20 chapters of following book to discuss ? Otherwise we would not be=20 looking at it from different sides anothder thing Caldwell professes but doesn't do.=20 See the publications (one is a tick book) from: Hare, William Loftus and Edward, Harold for example: Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters? The=20 first thorough examination of the communications alleged to have been=20 received by the late A. P. Sinnett from Tibetan Mahatmas (London:=20 Williams and Norgate, 1936) = =20 B= =3D=0D rian http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~mu= =3D=0D ehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Brian/Brigitte, >=20 > You wrote: >=20 > ------------------------------------------------- > This tap dance of Daniel Caldwell lends nothing to the debate=20 > except as has been the repeated pattern of pseudo-historian Caldwell,=20 > creating confusion and sidestepping the real issues at hand. > ---------------------------------------------------- >=20 > At long last I have a title! :) I can now sign my postings: >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell, P.H. >=20 > Speaking of "pseudo", this comment by you reminds me of what=20 Rochus=20 > Boerner writes in "Some Notes on Skepticism": >=20 > ". . . the true skeptic refrains from ad hominem attacks and name=20 > calling while the pseudoskeptic elevates them to an art form."=20=20 >=20 > Quoted from: http://mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner/skepticism.html >=20 > Now let us consider some of your other comments: >=20 > ------------------------------------------------- > Notice how Daniel Caldwell puls all these "stories" out of his > sleeves and try's to pass them them as "valid" testimonies of some=20 > kind. . . . >=20 > It is when these stories/"testimonies" have proof to back them up > that they become more believable.=20 >=20 > Observed Daniel Caldwell do the same hat trick on another list=20 > someone responded : "How trusting are you when someone comes up=20 to=20 > you in the street and says, If you come with me you will get $500=20 > dollars--most adults (for the most part) would not believe the=20 > person. So why should it be any different when someone makes a=20 claim=20 > about the paranormal ?=20 >=20 > Now don't get me wrong, some people may say they saw something=20 > outrageous and it may be that they did--but it was their perception > of the incident. For example, if a person was to say they were=20 > abducted by aliens and could recount the whole story--that doesn't=20 > make thestory true to you or I. > ---------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Well, Brian/Brigitte, I am not the only one trying to pass these=20 > Theosophical "stories" off as "'valid' testimonies of some=20 > kind. . . ." In fact, I'm in good company with Steve Stubbs, Paul=20 > Johnson and your former incarnation Brigitte Muehlegger. >=20 > Take the two "stories" of Olcott receiving a KH letter on board the=20 > S.S. Shannon and the "Gebhard letter" which was discussed many=20 months=20 > ago on this forum. Steve Stubbs who prides himself in not being=20 > a "Theosophical fundamentalist" recently wrote on this forum: >=20 > "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES=20 for=20 > evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." > Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos- talk/message/8398 > caps added >=20 > Brian/Brigitte, have you taken Steve to task for trying to pass these=20 > Theosophical "stories" off as "'valid' testimonies of some=20 > kind. . . ."?=20 >=20 > Please remember what you just wrote: >=20 > "It is when these stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up > that they become more believable."=20 >=20 > I would think that Steve must believe that the 2 cases just cited=20 > have some "proof to back them up", otherwise why would he=20 > characterize them as "good candidates"? >=20 > OBTW, do you agree with Steve's statement that "the Shannon letter=20 > and the Gebhard letter are good candidates for evidence that some=20 > letters were delivered by phenomenal means"? >=20 > If you don't agree, then please give us your reasoning. >=20 > Moving on to Paul Johnson. >=20 > Let's take one of the Theosophical "stories" by H.S. Olcott. See=20 > his "story" about Ooton Liatto at: >=20 > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcottooton.htm >=20 > Concerning this "testimony", this "story", Johnson wrote in his=20 > scholarly book "The Masters Revealed" his considered opinion that: >=20 > ". . . there is little doubt that two real adepts visited Olcott in=20 > New York." >=20 > For more of Johnson's comments, see: > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/johnsonooton.htm >=20 > Brian/Brigitte, to paraphrase you, we might ask: >=20 > Is Johnson trying to pass this "story" off as a "valid" testimony "of=20 > some kind. . . ."? >=20 > And let us not forget your own words: >=20 > "It is when these stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up > that they become more believable." >=20 > I assume from Johnson's own words that he considers Olcott's "story"=20 > as "believeable". >=20 > But tell us Brian/Brigitte where is the "proof" you write of that=20 > makes the Olcott account "more believable"? >=20 > And last but not least, let us consider you in your former=20 > incarnation when you signed your postings as "Brigitte Muehlegger". >=20 > Brigitte Muehlegger's assessment of the above "story" by Olcott can=20 > be found at: >=20 > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/muehlegger2.htm >=20 > Keeping in mind what you just posted today that "it is when these=20 > stories/'testimonies' have proof to back them up that they become=20 > more believable," please tell us, Brian/Brigitte, what proof was=20 > there to back up Olcott's story which made it believable enough that=20 > you could write (in your last incarnation)--- >=20 > ". . . That there where real visitors [as Olcott relates in=20 > his "story"] . . . I have never doubted . . . . "=20 >=20 > It will be interesting to see what your response is. Will you=20 > sidestep "the real issues at hand" which I have outlined above? >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell, P.H. From jpcondick@btinternet.com Tue Nov 05 13:17:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 5 Nov 2002 21:17:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 49751 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2002 21:17:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2002 21:17:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rhenium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2002 21:17:53 -0000 Received: from host213-1-198-190.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.198.190] helo=oemcomputer) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 189B55-00053G-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:17:52 +0000 Message-ID: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> To: Subject: Voice In The Silence Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:15:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers Could someone please tell me which Master dictated "Voice In The Silence" through HPB. Many thanks Jeremy From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Nov 06 04:32:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 12:32:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 82445 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 12:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 12:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO parsec.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 12:32:13 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-25.look.ca ([216.154.45.72] helo=idirect.ca) by parsec.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189PLu-0004to-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3DC90BEB.6EA7E7A5@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:32:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to whoever . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Yes, Brian, Paul, Brigitte, Dallas, Leon, etc., etc., it seems obvious enough to me that certain kinds of speculative, or "freer," approaches toward reality and and the defining of reality can/might lead many people into various complications, more or less directly or indirectly. I suppose we all (or most of us?) try to cope, clarify, improve, transcend, etc., in whatever ways that at least seem . . . (what?) realistic, gratifying, relevant, strategic, political, religious, or whatever . . . Of course if we were all "relevant enough" in mainstream terms . . . If life, in general, is seen in a certain kind of confined, sanghic/communic sense, wouldn't that kind of confined approach to life, (or to Theosophy?) tend to promote the importance of equally confined mainstream values, at the cost of freer thoughts, at times? One might wonder if there's a current out there (that might have some kind of Theosophic tinge to it, as well, say?) that might be somewhat constitutionally ("consciously/less consciously") against certain kinds of freer thoughts, possibly seeing those as leading to such as black magic, unfriendliness, alternativeness, lack of co-operation, party pooping, confusion, problems, nonsense, etc, etc Speculatively, Mauri From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 06 05:20:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 13:20:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 70524 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 13:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 13:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 13:20:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 13:20:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:20:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_=93sources=94_of_the_letters,_and_the_=93staging=94_of_Blavatsky=92s__=93Masters.=94?= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2167 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To me this is ridiculous. Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as Daniel Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that there are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any of the so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first didn`t feel that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place of answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly be too indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a while they obeyed him. The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own fictitiousness in sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the Masters noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding accusations of inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH to Sinnet, Letter No. 24B) Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, Hume and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand of Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding as usual. She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the piano while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, but a very different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes later, when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having opened the letter and read it. See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html Brian From llkingston2@juno.com Wed Nov 06 08:24:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 16:24:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 91065 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 16:24:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 16:24:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 16:24:38 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUM06owXwij+W3GcamrycTFyg=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HGXRPR2J; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 11:23:53 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:13:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World =?iso-8859-1?q?The_=93sources=94_of_the_letters,_and_the_=93staging=94_of_Blavatsky=92s__=93Masters.=94?= Message-ID: <20021106.111307.-832465.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9,12-15,17-19,26-27 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:20:44 -0000 "brianmuehlbach" writes: > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as > Daniel > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. Larry: Yes, the Mormons now have over 11 million members, but they, unlike the various Theosophical organizations, run a super smooth marketing program they call missionary work. > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that > there are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any of > the so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. Not totally accurate. The Mormons have the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. The three testified to having seen the Angel Moroni and to have being shown the gold plates by that personage. The eight passed around the plates, turning the pages and noting the engravings. The Mormons have those testimonies in the front of the B of M and have written countless books and made movies on the lives of these men as part of the missionary effort. Larry Kolts ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From wry1111@earthlink.net Wed Nov 06 09:45:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 17:45:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 64724 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 17:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 17:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 17:45:52 -0000 Received: from 1cust121.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.121] helo=idapingala) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189UFS-0002XX-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 09:45:51 -0800 Message-ID: <003f01c285bc$ad325ce0$79d30b3f@idapingala> To: References: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Theos-World_The_=22sources=22_of_the_letters=2C_and_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?the_=22staging=22_of_Blavatsky's__=22Masters.=22?= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:48:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person in many ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you could use a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of things. They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of course, is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how you want to live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize situations and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave situation, both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would you not agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to address this problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You probably do, too. Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you are able to help them find something better to replace it with. You think you have something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it probably is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You do not say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your belief and then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken before he eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT MAKES NO SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I think it is funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? The point I personally would be interested in making is that it is not necessary to look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us understands, but we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment before I bump into a telephone pole. Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the fastest growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to provide evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be angry at a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being sarcastic when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when applied to adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you and I understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply this in my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to projects that have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we can help many people. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To > me this is ridiculous. > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as Daniel > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that there > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any of the > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first didn`t feel > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place of > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly be too > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a while > they obeyed him. > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own fictitiousness in > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the Masters > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding accusations of > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH to Sinnet, > Letter No. 24B) > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, Hume > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand of > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding as usual. > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the piano > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, but a very > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes later, > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having opened the > letter and read it. > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 06 10:14:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 18:14:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 58096 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 18:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 18:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 18:14:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 18:14:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:14:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003f01c285bc$ad325ce0$79d30b3f@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5603 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wry:"unless you are able to help them find something better to replace it with." Brian: What Church do you really belong to ? --- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person in many > ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you could use > a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of things. > They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of course, > is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will > perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how you want to > live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. > > As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize situations > and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave situation, > both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would you not > agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to address this > problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You probably > do, too. > > Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you are able > to help them find something better to replace it with. You think you have > something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it probably > is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You do not > say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your belief and > then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken before he > eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT MAKES NO > SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. > > I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I think it is > funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? The point I > personally would be interested in making is that it is not necessary to > look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us understands, but > we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment before I > bump into a telephone pole. > > Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the fastest > growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to provide > evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in > attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to > believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be angry at > a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being sarcastic > when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when applied to > adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you and I > understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply this in > my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to projects that > have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we can help > many people. Sincerely, Wry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM > Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of > Blavatsky's "Masters." > > > > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To > > me this is ridiculous. > > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as Daniel > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that there > > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any of the > > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first didn`t feel > > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place of > > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly be too > > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a while > > they obeyed him. > > > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own fictitiousness in > > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the Masters > > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding accusations of > > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH to Sinnet, > > Letter No. 24B) > > > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, Hume > > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand of > > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding as usual. > > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the piano > > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, but a very > > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes later, > > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having opened the > > letter and read it. > > > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 06 10:33:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 18:33:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 3821 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 18:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 18:33:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 18:33:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 18:33:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:33:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "out of tin air" ?? etc. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1888 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte wrote: "There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people believe the 'Mahatma Letters' have been created out of tin air, as Daniel Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting." B/B, exactly what do I keep suggesting? "out of tin air"??? If I understand what you are trying to convey, I will simply say that my point of view appears to be very similar if not identical to Steve Stubbs' view. For example, he wrote: "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8398 caps added B/B, do you also contend that Steve believes that these two Mahatma Letters were "created out of tin air"? OBTW, how do you think the delivery of the Shannon letter was really accomplished? I'm sure Steve will be interested in your thinking about this. I know that I will be. See the Shannon letter at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8396 I would also suggest that the following incidents indicate that additional letters or handwriting were created and/or delivered by phenomenal means: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8402 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8403 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8404 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8409 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8410 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8411 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8412 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8413 I also see that you have so far refused to deal with the following email I posted: Brian/Brigitte on "valid" evidence about The Mahatma Letters http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8367 Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 06 10:58:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 18:58:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 46338 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 18:58:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 18:58:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 18:58:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 18:58:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:58:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Gebhard letter Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 9589 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve Stubbs wrote on this forum: "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for=20 evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8398 caps added Some readers may not be familiar with the incident involving=20 the "Gebhard letter." I append below the account so that readers=20 will be familiar with this incident when Brian/Brigitte comments on=20 this case. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc -------------------------------------------------------- Testimony of Rudolph Gebhard,=20 August. 25=9626, 1884,=20 Elberfeld, Germany=20 I have always taken a great interest in conjuring tricks. When in London, I had an opportunity of taking lessons from Professor Field, a most skillful sleight-of-hand conjuror, who very soon made me quite proficient in his art. From that time forward I have given performances wherever I went (as an amateur, of course), and made the acquaintance of nearly all our renowned "wizards," with whom I exchanged tricks. As every conjuror has some favorite sleight in which he excels, I was bound to be very careful in watching them, in order to make myself perfect in all the different lines of card or coin conjuring, or the famous mediumistic feats. This of course made me in good time a pretty close observer, as far as tricks are concerned; and I feel justified in giving here an opinion on the phenomena which came under my observation. Two of them occurred in our house in Elberfeld, during the stay in it of Mme. Blavatsky, Colonel Olcott, and a small party of friends and Theosophists. The first one was a letter from Mahatma K.H. to my father, and took place one evening in the presence of a number of witnesses. It was about nine pm. We were sitting in the drawing room discussing different topics, when Mme. Blavatsky's attention was suddenly attracted by something unusual taking place in the room. After a while she said that she felt the presence of the "Masters." That they had, perhaps, the intention of doing something for us, and so she asked us to think of what we should like to occur. Then a little discussion took place as to what would be the best thing, and finally it was unanimously resolved that a letter should be asked for, addressed to my father, Mr. G. Gebhard, on a subject on which he should mentally decide himself. Now my father had, at the time being, great anxiety about a son in America, my elder brother, and was very eager to get advice from the Master concerning him. Meanwhile, Mme. B., who, on account of her recent illness, was resting on a sofa, and had been looking around the room, suddenly exclaimed that there was something going on with a large oil painting hanging over the piano in the same room, she having seen like a ray of light shooting in the direction of the picture. This statement was immediately corroborated by Mrs. [Holloway], and then by my mother also, who, sitting opposite a looking glass and turning her back to the picture, had also observed in the mirror, like a faint light going towards the painting. Mme. B. then required Mrs. [Holloway] to see, and say what was going on, when Mrs. [Holloway] said that she saw something forming over the picture, but could not distinctly make out what it was. Everybody's attention was now fixed in the direction of the wall high above and under the ceiling, where so many saw bright lights. But, I must confess, that for my part, not being clairvoyant, I could neither see lights, nor any other thing except what I had always seen on that wall. And when Madame Blavatsky said she now felt absolutely sure that there was something going on, I got up (we had kept our seats all this while) and climbing on the piano lifted the picture right off the wall, but not off the hook, shook it well and looked behind it=97nothing! The room was well lit up, and there was not an inch of the picture which I could not see. I dropped the frame, saying that I could see nothing; but Madame Blavatsky told me that she felt sure that there must be something, so on I climbed once more and tried again. The picture in question was a large oil painting, suspended from the wall by a hook and a rope, which made it hang over at the top, so that when the lower part of the frame was lifted off the wall, there was a space of fully six inches between the wall and the back of the picture, the latter being virtually entirely off the wall. There being a wall gas bracket fixed on each side of the painting, the space between the latter and the wall was well lit up. But the second time, no better than the first, was I able to detect anything, though I looked very close. It was in order to make perfectly sure that I got up on the piano, and passed my hand twice very carefully along the frame, which is about three inches thick, up and down=97nothing. Letting the picture drop back, I then turned round to Madame Blavatsky to ask her what was to be done further, when she exclaimed, "I see the letter; there it is!" I turned quickly back to the picture, and saw at that moment a letter dropping from behind it on the piano. I picked it up. It was addressed to "Herr Consul G. Gebhard," and contained the information he had just asked for. I must have made rather a perplexed face, for the company laughed merrily at the "family juggler." Now for me this is a most completely demonstrated phenomenon. Nobody had handled the picture but myself; I was careful to examine it very closely, and as I was searching for a letter, such a thing could not have escaped my attention, as perhaps would have been the case if I had been looking for some other object; as then I might not have paid any attention to a slip of paper. The letter was fully four by two inches, so by no means a small object. Let us consider this phenomenon from a sleight-of-hand point of view. Suppose several letters had been prepared beforehand, addressed to different persons, treating of different subjects. Is it possible to get a letter to an appointed place by a sleight-of-hand trick? Quite possible; it only depends what place it is, and if our attention is drawn beforehand to such a place or not. To get that letter behind that picture would have been very difficult, but might have been managed if our attention had for a moment been directed to another place, the letter being thrown behind the picture in the meantime. What is sleight-of-hand? Nothing else but the execution of a movement more or less swift, in a moment when you are not observed. I draw your attention for a short while to a certain spot, say for instance my left hand, my right is then free to make certain movements unobserved; as to "the quickness of the hand deceives the eye" theory, it is entirely erroneous. You cannot make a movement with your hand so quickly that the eye would not follow and detect it; the only thing you can do is either to conceal the necessary movement by another one which has nothing to do with what you are about, or to draw the attention of the looker-on to another point, and then quickly do what is required. Now, in this instance all our attention had been drawn to the picture, before ever the question was put as to what we should like to have, and was kept there all the while; it would have been impossible for anyone to throw a letter without being observed. As for the letter having been concealed behind the picture beforehand, this is out of the question altogether, it could not have escaped my attention while I repeatedly searched for it. Suppose the letter had been placed on the top of the frame, and my hand had disturbed it passing along without my knowing it, this would have caused the letter to drop down instantly, whereas, about thirty seconds passed before it put in an appearance. Taking all circumstances together, it seems to me an impossibility to have worked this phenomenon by a trick. The day after this had occurred, I went into Madame's room about noon; but seeing that she was engaged I retired to the drawing room, where we had been sitting the night before, and just then the idea struck me to try that picture again, in order to make perfectly sure that the letter could not have been concealed somewhere behind it, without being detected. I was alone in the room, and during my examination of the painting, nobody entered it; I fully satisfied myself that a letter could not have escaped my attention, had it been concealed behind the picture. I then went back to Madame's room, where I found her still engaged with the same woman. In the evening we were again sitting together. "The Masters watched you today, and were highly amused with your experiments. How you did try to find out if that letter could not have been concealed behind the picture." Now I am positively certain, first, that nobody was in the room at the time I tried the picture; and secondly, that I had told no one in the house of my experiment. It is impossible for me to explain how Madame could have found out my movements, except through clairvoyance. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. Incidents in the Life of Madame Blavatsky, Compiled from Information Supplied by her Relatives and Friends. London: George Redway, 1886. Reprint New York: Ayer, 1976, pp. 279=96286. [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant to the subject has been silently deleted. The original texts, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 06 11:17:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 19:17:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 40711 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 19:17:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 19:17:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 19:17:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 19:17:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:17:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_=93staging=94_of_Blavatsky=92s__"Masters"_=3F=3F?= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1483 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte, When you write of "the 'staging' of Blavatsky's 'Masters'", what are you exactly referring to? Are you maintaining that you do not believe "that the mahatmas were real men as they were claimed to be"? Since you apparently want your readers to believe that you are a rational, critical and thinking human being on these subjects, then please let us know if you agree or disagree with Steve Stubbs' view expressed below. If you disagree with Steve, then please explain your reasoning so that the rest of us will be in a better position to understand if your view is actually more rational, etc. than those of the so-called Theosophical fundamentalists. Now here is Steve Stubbs' comments: ". . . the only proof we can have of the masters' historical existence is testimony from a qualified witness, and we have that from Olcott. . . . Olcott's testimony is sufficient in my judgement to establish their corporeal existence as legal persons. . . . . I cannot agree with anyone that they were fictions, fantasies, imagined beings, trance personalities, or any such thing as that unless the Olcott evidence can be satisfactorily disposed of. I raised that question some time ago, and no one has ever addressed it, so for that reason I remain stubbornly convinced that the mahatmas were real men as they were claimed to be. . . . " Quoted from: http://theosophy.com/theos-talk/200202/tt00173.html Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 06 12:11:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 20:11:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 21459 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 20:11:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 20:11:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 20:11:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 20:11:55 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:11:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "out of tin air" ?? etc. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2635 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Daniel Caldwell: I will simply say that my point of view appears to be very similar if not identical to Steve Stubbs' view. Brian: I did notice Steve asked you: "There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" Why don't you answer his question ? Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Brian/Brigitte wrote: > > "There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people believe > the 'Mahatma Letters' have been created out of tin air, as Daniel > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting." > > B/B, exactly what do I keep suggesting? "out of tin air"??? > > If I understand what you are trying to convey, I will simply say that > my point of view appears to be very similar if not identical to Steve > Stubbs' view. For example, he wrote: > > "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for > evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." > Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos- talk/message/8398 > caps added > > B/B, do you also contend that Steve believes that these two Mahatma > Letters were "created out of tin air"? > > OBTW, how do you think the delivery of the Shannon letter was really > accomplished? I'm sure Steve will be interested in your thinking > about this. I know that I will be. > > See the Shannon letter at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8396 > > I would also suggest that the following incidents indicate that > additional letters or handwriting were created and/or delivered by > phenomenal means: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8402 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8403 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8404 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8409 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8410 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8411 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8412 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8413 > > I also see that you have so far refused to deal with the following > email I posted: > > Brian/Brigitte on "valid" evidence about The Mahatma Letters > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8367 > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 06 12:36:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 20:36:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 12162 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 20:36:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 20:36:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 20:36:28 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 61915262A83 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:36:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002601c285d3$7daeda40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World "Morya out of tin air" ?? etc. Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:31:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, A view among many: Well, - Daniel - maybe you or other readers will find the following a little annoying, but so what. The Bailey connection: But you, Daniel Caldwell, have NOT yet answered the questions in the following email - dated november 3rd 2002 : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8405 And that email was a response to an even earlier email, where you Daniel didn't respond. This was the one - dated september 30th 2002: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8078 (Related links are for instance: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8132 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8126) I will in a friendly and polite manner suggest, that Daniel Caldwell tries to "move his own LAWN" first before he teaches others to do so. When do Daniel Caldwell answer on these questions in the above emails ?? And links ?? Will it happen when a Mahatma Morya in sufi-dress comes flying out of the thin air on one of the Mormons Golden Tablets ?? Do not misunderstand me - I can live without an answer on the above. But, my point is: We can't demand others to answer our questions. It could be, that our questions are to be answered by not answering at all. No answer is also a response. Silence talks ! And let us try to rethink this one: My own assumptions are as good as anyone elses. That is true. Right ? >:-) Laughs... And to the anti-Theosophist readers I ask: "Why do you refuse to seriously consider the possibility of developing wisdom in your Brain ?" "Are you too impatient or just stupid or what...?". And thanks to Wry for this one emailed today, I quote Wry: "As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize situations and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave situation, both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would you not agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to address this problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You probably do, too." Yes. It seems that "Atlantis" is reincarnating and old ties of Racism has to be dissolved. One issue: A lot of Black americans in USA can't wote. Sometimes because White policemen has thrown them to jail. It is mostly the Black americans who are being jailed. Another issue: Germany are against a war with Irak and USA etc...- they - believe it or not - want - PEACE ! Great ! Analogy is a law in the universe. Maybe USA has to go through the similar experience as Germany did in 1933-1946. Well maybe not... I have a friend a master it is. A physical/non-physical one. I know they are REAL. Right human relations are of great importance. If our human relations during the day are not proper - then we get exhausted or we feel not so well. from M. Sufilight flying with Morya on a Golden Tablet - with friendly suggestions...and some young Rugrats with ESP... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Theos-World "out of tin air" ?? etc. > Brian/Brigitte wrote: > > "There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people believe > the 'Mahatma Letters' have been created out of tin air, as Daniel > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting." > > B/B, exactly what do I keep suggesting? "out of tin air"??? > > If I understand what you are trying to convey, I will simply say that > my point of view appears to be very similar if not identical to Steve > Stubbs' view. For example, he wrote: > > "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for > evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." > Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8398 > caps added > > B/B, do you also contend that Steve believes that these two Mahatma > Letters were "created out of tin air"? > > OBTW, how do you think the delivery of the Shannon letter was really > accomplished? I'm sure Steve will be interested in your thinking > about this. I know that I will be. > > See the Shannon letter at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8396 > > I would also suggest that the following incidents indicate that > additional letters or handwriting were created and/or delivered by > phenomenal means: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8402 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8403 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8404 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8409 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8410 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8411 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8412 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8413 > > I also see that you have so far refused to deal with the following > email I posted: > > Brian/Brigitte on "valid" evidence about The Mahatma Letters > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8367 > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 06 13:02:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 56313 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:02:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Larry. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021106.111307.-832465.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2155 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Larry: The Mormons have the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. Brian: Your knowledge of Mormon History is more detailed then mine and I always appreciate your input. While we are at the subject there was a book a few years ago that I started to look at but then dropped it due to the complexity of the pro and contras in Mormon studies. However you might be able to tell more about it, have you looked into "The Spalding Enigma: Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon?" It is a 1,100 page study. http://www.thedigitalvoice.com/enigma Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > > > On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 13:20:44 -0000 "brianmuehlbach" > writes: > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as > > Daniel > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > Larry: Yes, the Mormons now have over 11 million members, but they, > unlike the various Theosophical organizations, run a super smooth > marketing program they call missionary work. > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that > > there are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any > of > > the so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > Not totally accurate. The Mormons have the Three Witnesses and the Eight > Witnesses. The three testified to having seen the Angel Moroni and to > have being shown the gold plates by that personage. The eight passed > around the plates, turning the pages and noting the engravings. The > Mormons have those testimonies in the front of the B of M and have > written countless books and made movies on the lives of these men as part > of the missionary effort. > > Larry Kolts > > ____________________________________________________________ ____ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 06 13:19:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 21:19:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 81548 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 21:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 21:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 21:19:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 21:19:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:19:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Book of Mormon hoax Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021106.111307.-832465.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2894 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.237.11 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > Not totally accurate. The Mormons have the Three Witnesses and the Eight > Witnesses. The three testified to having seen the Angel Moroni and to > have being shown the gold plates by that personage. The eight passed > around the plates, turning the pages and noting the engravings. Very true. It should be entered into evidence that the witnesses were self-proclaimed liars as they themselves admitted later. see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10570c.htm Here is the relevant text: "Joseph Smith states that he received the record from the Angel Moroni in September, 1827. It was, he alleges, engraved upon metallic plates having the appearance of gold and each a little thinner than ordinary tin, the whole forming a book about six inches long, six inches wide, and six inches thick, bound together by rings. ... The result was the "Book of Mormon"; ... in the preface eleven witnesses, exclusive of Joseph Smith, the translator, claim to have seen the plates from which it was taken. On renouncing Mormonism subsequently, Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris - the three principal witnesses - declared this testimony false. What is interesting about this is that Cowdery, who proclaimed himself to be a bare faced liar of the lowest possible order when he said he saw the golden plates, was not just a witness but Smith's co author of the BOM. That is a pretty worrisome defection. It is almost as bad as if Smith himself had 'fessed up and just about as significant as to the truthfulness of te angel Moron story. Cowdery was also accused of enlisting Sidney Rigdon and ripping off a novel by a fellow named Spaulding. The premise is that as a writer he was as unimaginative as he was untalented and untruthful. The article says of this: "Six months after its inception, the Mormon Church sent its first mission to the American Indians. ... Oliver Cowdery was placed at the head of this mission, which also included Parley P. Pratt, a former preacher of the Reformed Baptists, or Campbellites. The missionaries proceeded to northern Ohio, then almost a wilderness, where Elder Pratt presented to his former pastor, Sidney Rigdon, a copy of the "Book of Mormon", published several months before. Up to that time Rigdon had never seen the book, which he was accused of helping Smith to write. The Mormons are equally emphatic in their denial of the identity of the "Book of Mormon" with Spaulding's "Manuscript Story", now in Oberlin College; they quote in this connection James H. Fairchild that institution, who, in a communication to the "New York Observer" (5 February, 1885), states that Mr. L.L., Rice and he, after comparing the "Book of Mormon" and the Spaulding romance, "could detect no resemblance between the two, in general or detail". Maybe so, but I don't buy it. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 06 15:28:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 23:28:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 9022 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 23:28:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 23:28:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 23:28:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2002 23:28:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:28:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: So Brigitte, are we playing that game again? :) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2643 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte, You wrote to me: "I did notice Steve asked you: 'There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis chelas who produced them?' " "Why don't you answer his question ?" So Brigitte, are we playing THAT game AGAIN? :) The question Steve asked is found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8421 I quote the fuller text: "Thanks for the precipitation stories. The Theosophical sources say that some of the letters were precipitated and that most were not. Your comments seem to fit in well with those statements." "There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis chelas who produced them? Unfortunately, precipitation stories, however interesting, do not relieve us on this point because even if we grant that Blavatsky could produce a letter out of thin air, that does not constitute reason to believe the letter she produced did not contain her own thoughts rather than someone else's. I am not saying the problem cannot be solved, only that the stories do not solve it. So suppose someone like Paul Johnson or Brigitte Muehlegger were to suddenly profess belief in the mathatmas and precipitation but express doubt that the mahatmas wrote the letters, how could one answer that difficulty?" This is certainly a good question by Steve. But I believe it is not an easy question to answer. I'm not saying it couldn't be adequately answered. I'm just saying it is a question that would require time and effort to adequately answer. I certainly would not try to answer it off the top of my head in two or three paragraphs. I would have to first think about it, mull it over, etc. Then I would have to do some research and study to see if I could find relevant primary source material that might elucidate the question and the implications that the question raises, etc. etc. In other words, not every question can be easily answered. Brian/Brigitte, maybe you have some simple answer to Steve's question. If so, go for it! Maybe some of us will pursue Steve's question and come up with some insights. I suspect that an adequate answer would require at least a 2 or 3 page article. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 06 16:05:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 00:05:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 51328 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 00:05:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 00:05:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 00:05:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2002 00:05:23 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:05:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's questions and points Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002601c285d3$7daeda40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2673 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Morten, Earlier this week I was attempting to answer some of your questions and points as given in your posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8405 But after I read some of the following comments by you, I decided not to spend the time and effort it would take to answer all of your questions and points. For example, in one of your comments you wrote: "But Daniel maybe I didn't really want an answer to that question. Maybe I wanted the readers to THINK. To THINK is here to develop your inner organ - i.e. to merge with your inner being. The person who first made the Mahatma Letter - ML23b public was maybe a racist or just stupid...because of the misunderstandings it created and creates." In fact, I had previously taken more than an hour to track down the facts so I could answer the original question you had posed!! But why should I have taken that time and effort to try to answer your question when you later admit that "maybe I [you] didn't really want an answer to that question"???!!! Or take another comment of yours: "The ML23b is fake in the sense, that no true Master would TODAY write such a letter and make it publicly known ! Past papers and pas books are nearly always only recommended to a PAST audience by the true Master. --- I suggest, this: Let us be more concerned with the present hour of turmoil, pump and circumstance, than these past events." What could I possibly write in response to those kind of comments? And since you want us to "be more concerned with the prsent hour of turmoil", then why waste time responding to your comments about "these past events? Or one more example: I had written: "But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or somehow faked?" and your "Sufilight answer" was in part: "Yes and no. The situation differs because Blavatsky was writing a book, and because she was the person/soul she was, and because A. P. Sinnnett was the person/soul he was. . . . " What, pray tell, does that mean? I could NOT answer that point for the primary reason I was not at all sure exactly what your point was. I don't mean that all of your comments were similar to the above, but I felt and still feel that most of what you had written did not require further comments from me. Furthermore, you write that I had never responded to the following posting by you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8078 I will try to answer your 2 or 3 points in this posting in the next several days. Daniel From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 06 16:40:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 8481 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:14 -0000 Received: from pool1116.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.22.96] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189aiT-0002Z4-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:40:13 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re Graham Hancock's approach, advocacy, research Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:36:42 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3DC7C6F2.D018E0DF@idirect.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Thanks Mauri: Interesting -- There is much more to be investigated among the "damned" facts as Charles Fort might have put it in the 1920s ( The Book of the Damned) Have you read any of Emanuel Velikovsky's books ( 1940s) (Worlds in Collision, etc...) Have you seen or read FORBIDDEN ARCHAEOLOGY? Dal =========================== Here's an excerpt from Graham Hancock's web site: http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld1.php Online Introduction to Underworld >From Fingerprints of the Gods to Underworld An Essay on Methods By Graham Hancock The central claim of my 1995 book Fingerprints of the Gods is not that there was but that there could have been a lost civilisation, which flourished and was destroyed in remote antiquity. And I wrote the book, quite deliberately, not as a work of science but as a work of advocacy. I felt that the possibility of a lost civilisation had not been adequately explored or tested by mainstream scholarship. I set myself the task of rehabilitating it by gathering together, and passionately championing, all the best evidence and arguments in its favour. In the early 1990's when I was researching Fingerprints there were a number of new ideas in the air that seemed to me to have an important bearing on the lost civilisation debate. These included Robert Bauval's Orion correlation, Rand and Rose Flem-Ath's work on Antarctica and earth-crust displacement, and the geological case presented by John Anthony West and Robert Schoch that the Great Sphinx of Giza might be much older than had hitherto been thought. At the same time I was aware of a huge reservoir of popular literature, going back more than a century to the time of Ignatius Donnelly, in which the case for a lost civilisation had been put again and again, in many different ways and from many different angles. I knew that not a single word of this vast literature had ever been accepted by mainstream scholars who remained steadfast in their view that the history of civilisation is known and includes no significant forgotten episodes. But, I thought, what if the scholars have got it wrong? What if we've forgotten something important in our story? What if we are a species with amnesia? After all, scientists are now pretty sure that anatomically modern humans, just like us, have been around for at least the last 120,000 years. Yet our "history" begins 5000 years ago with the first cities and the first written records. And the prehistory of this process has presently only been traced back (often quite tentatively) to the end of the last Ice Age around 10,000 years ago when it's thought that mankind began to make the transition from hunter-gathering to food production. So what were we doing during the previous 110,000 years? ===========snip Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 06 16:40:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 54589 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:12 -0000 Received: from pool1116.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.22.96] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189ai9-0002Z4-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:39:53 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Punya Why "do good?" & Karma Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:36:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nov 6 2002 Re: -----Original Message----- From: Timothy L Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:52 AM To: Subject: [bn-study] RE: Punya Why "do good?" Dear Timothy: Theosophy makes statements about Karma and its impartial and universal operation. But we as individuals who are also immortals and have started =93making Karma=92 many, may lives ago find ourselves (it says) bound to those situations we created, and for which we are receiving results, so seemingly fortuitous, or by accident now. Let me say this appears very arbitrary. But our reception, admission of responsibility -- or our choice to do so, or not -- seems to operate whether we like it or not. Makes it sound quite implacable. But the circumstances we meet or see others involved in, while heart wrenching, do not in any way change our/their condition, or the receipt of good or bad Karma today or tomorrow. {Some principles about personal Karma are to be found toward the end of the insert below }. The main problem is that our memory in this life does not include (normally ), access to the memories of previous lives. We are reborn with a completely new brain and the memories of the old dissipated one are not often recovered with exactitude. ( sometimes they are, but this is rare.) I am putting here a series of notes and arguments which will hopefully let you understand how Theosophy views and explains: (It=92s a little long but it is also comprehensive.) [I add a few notes after the insert.] ------------- Karma -- The Law of Cause and Effect -- Compensation KARMA is a Sanskrit word, and is a name adopted by Theosophists for one of the most important of the laws of nature. Ceaseless in its operation, it bears alike upon planets, systems of planets, races, nations, families, and individuals. It is the twin doctrine to REINCARNATION. So inextricably interlaced are these two laws that it is almost impossible to properly consider one apart from the other. No spot or being in the universe is exempt from the operation of Karma, but all are under its sway, punished for error by it yet beneficently led on, through discipline, rest, and reward, to the distant heights of perfection. It is a law so comprehensive in its sweep, embracing at once our physical and our moral being, that it is only by paraphrase and copious explanation one can convey its meaning in English. For that reason the Sanskrit term Karma was adopted to designate it. Applied to man's moral life it is the law of ethical causation, justice, reward and punishment; the cause for birth and rebirth, yet equally the means for escape from incarnation. Viewed from another point it is merely effect flowing from cause, action and reaction, exact result for every thought and act. It is act and the result of act; for the word's literal meaning is action. KARMA: LAW of an INTELLIGENT UNIVERSE Theosophy views the Universe as an intelligent whole, hence every motion in the Universe is an action of that whole leading to results, which themselves become causes for further results. It is not a being but a law, the universal law of harmony which unerringly restores all disturbance to equilibrium. In this the theory conflicts with the ordinary conception about God, built up from the Jewish system, which assumes that the Almighty as a thinking entity, extraneous to the Cosmos, builds up, finds his construction inharmonious, out of proportion, errant, and disturbed, and then has to pull down, destroy, or punish that which he created. This has either caused thousands to live in fear of God, in compliance with his assumed commands, with the selfish object of obtaining reward and securing escape from his wrath, or has plunged them into darkness which comes from a denial of all spiritual life. But as there is plainly, indeed painfully, evident to every human being a constant destruction going on in and around us, a continual war not only among men but everywhere through the whole solar system, causing sorrow in all directions, reason requires a solution of the riddle. The poor, who see no refuge or hope, cry aloud to a God who makes no reply, and then envy springs up in them when they consider the comforts and opportunities of the rich. They see the rich profligates, the wealthy fools, enjoying themselves unpunished. Turning to the teacher of religion, they meet the reply to their questioning of the justice which will permit such misery to those who did nothing requiring them to be born with no means, no opportunities for education, no capacity to overcome social, racial, or circumstantial obstacles, "It is the will of God." Parents produce beloved offspring who are cut off by death at an untimely hour, just when all promised well. They too have no answer to the question "Why am I thus afflicted?" but the same unreasonable reference to an inaccessible God whose arbitrary will causes their misery. KARMA AND JUSTICE Thus in every walk of life, loss, injury, persecution, deprivation of opportunity, nature's own forces working to destroy the happiness of man, death, reverses, disappointment continually beset good and evil men alike. But nowhere is there any answer or relief save in the ancient truths that each man is the maker and fashioner of his own destiny, the only one who sets in motion the causes for his own happiness and misery. In one life he sows and in the next he reaps. Thus on and forever, the law of Karma leads him. Karma is a beneficent law wholly merciful, relentlessly just, for true mercy is not favor but impartial justice. "My brothers! each man's life The outcome of his former living is; The bygone wrongs bring forth sorrows and woes, The bygone right breeds bliss. . . . This is the doctrine of Karma." How is the present life affected by that bygone right and wrong act, and is it always by way of punishment? Is Karma only fate under another name, an already fixed and formulated destiny from which no escape is possible, and which therefore might make us careless of act or thought that cannot affect destiny? It is not fatalism. Everything done in a former body has consequences which in the new birth the Ego must enjoy or suffer, for, as St. Paul said: "Brethren, be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." For the effect is in the cause, and Karma produces the manifestation of it in the body, brain, and mind furnished by reincarnation. And as a cause set up by one man has a distinct relation to him as a center from which it came, so each one experiences the results of his own acts. We may sometimes seem to receive effects solely from the acts of others, but this is the result of our own acts and thoughts in this or some prior life. We perform our acts in company with others always, and the acts with their underlying thoughts have relation always to other persons and to ourselves. THOUGHT AND CHOICE PRODUCES KARMA No act is performed without a thought at its root either at the time of performance or as leading to it. These thoughts are lodged in that part of man which we have called Manas -- the mind, and there remain as subtle but powerful links with magnetic threads that enmesh the solar system, and through which various effects are brought out. The theory put forward earlier, that the whole system to which this globe belongs is alive, conscious on every plane, though only in man showing self-consciousness, comes into play here to explain how the thought under the act in this life may cause result in this or the next birth. The marvellous modern experiments in hypnotism show that the slightest impression, no matter how far back in the history of the person, may be waked up to life, thus proving it is not lost but only latent. Take for instance the case of a child born humpbacked and very short, the head sunk between the shoulders, the arms long and legs curtailed. Why is this? His karma for thoughts and acts in a prior life. He reviled, persecuted, or otherwise injured a deformed person so persistently or violently as to imprint in his own immortal mind the deformed picture of his victim. For in proportion to the intensity of his thought will be the intensity and depth of the picture. It is exactly similar to the exposure of the sensitive photographic plate, whereby, just as the exposure is long or short, the impression in the plate is weak or deep. So this thinker and actor -- the Ego -- coming again to rebirth carries with him this picture, and if the family to which he is attracted for birth has similar physical tendencies in its stream, the mental picture causes the newly-forming astral body to assume a deformed shape by electrical and magnetic osmosis through the mother of the child. And as all beings on earth are indissolubly joined together, the misshapen child is the karma of the parents also an exact consequence for similar acts and thoughts on their part in other lives. Here is an exactitude of justice which no other theory will furnish. But as we often see a deformed human being -- continuing the instance merely for the purpose of illustration -- having a happy disposition, an excellent intellect, sound judgment, and every good moral quality, this very instance leads us to the conclusion that karma must be of several different kinds in every individual case, and also evidently operates in more than one department of our being, with the possibility of being pleasant in effect for one portion of our nature and unpleasant for another. KARMA IS OF THREE SORTS: FIRST -- that which has not begun to produce any effect in our lives owing to the operation on us of some other karmic causes. This is under a law well known to physicists, that two opposing forces tend to neutrality, and that one force may be strong enough to temporarily prevent the operation of another one. This law works on the unseen mental and karmic planes or spheres of being just as it does on the material ones. The force of a certain set of bodily, mental, and psychical faculties with their tendencies may wholly inhibit the operation on us of causes with which we are connected, because the whole nature of each person is used in the carrying out of this law. Hence the weak and mediocre furnish a weak focus for karma, and in them the general result of a lifetime is limited, although they may feel it all to be very heavy. But that person who has a wide and deep-reaching character and much force will feel the operation of a greater quantity of karma than the weaker person. SECOND -- that karma which we are now making or storing up by our thoughts and acts, and which will operate in the future when the appropriate body, mind, and environment are taken up by the incarnating Ego in some other life, or whenever obstructive karma is removed. This bears both on the present life and the next one. For one may in this life come to a point where, all previous causes being worked out, new karma, or that which is unexpended, must begin to operate. Under this are those cases where men have sudden reverses of fortune or changes for the better either in circumstances or character. A very important bearing of this is on our present conduct. While old karma must work out and cannot be stopped, it is wise for the man to so think and act now under present circumstances, no matter what they are, that he shall produce no bad or prejudicial causes for the next rebirth or for later years in this life. Rebellion is useless, for the law works on whether we weep or rejoice. The great French engineer, de Lesseps, is a good example of this class of karma. Raised to a high pitch of glory and achievement for many years of his life, he suddenly falls covered with shame through the Panama canal scandal. Whether he was innocent or guilty, he has the shame of the connection of his name with a national enterprise all besmirched with bribery and corruption that involved high officials. This was the operation of old karmic causes on him the very moment those which had governed his previous years were exhausted. Napoleon I is another, for he rose to a very great fame, then suddenly fell and died in exile and disgrace. Many other cases will occur to every thoughtful reader. THIRD -- that karma which has begun to produce results. It is the operating now in this life on us of causes set up in previous lives in company with other Egos. And it is in operation because, being most adapted to the family stock, the individual body, astral body, and race tendencies of the present incarnation, it exhibits itself plainly, while other unexpended karma awaits its regular turn. These three classes of karma govern men, animals, worlds, and periods of evolution. Every effect flows from a cause precedent, and as all beings are constantly being reborn they are continually experiencing the effects of their thoughts and acts (which are themselves causes) of a prior incarnation. And thus each one answers, as St. Matthew says, for every word and thought; none can escape either by prayer, or favor, or force, or any other intermediary. KARMA OPERATES ON THREE PLANES OF OUR BEING Now as karmic causes are divisible into three classes, they must have various fields in which to work. They operate upon man in his mental and intellectual nature, in his psychical or soul nature, and in his body and circumstances. The spiritual nature of man is never affected or operated upon by karma. One species of karma may act on the three specified planes of our nature at the same time to the same degree, or there may be a mixture of the causes, some on one plane and some on another. Take a deformed person who has a fine mind and a deficiency in his soul nature. Here punitive or unpleasant karma is operating on his body while in his mental and intellectual nature good karma is being experienced, but psychically the karma, or cause, being of an indifferent sort the result is indifferent. In another person other combinations appear. He has a fine body and favorable circumstances, but the character is morose, peevish, irritable, revengeful, morbid, and disagreeable to himself and others. Here good physical karma is at work with very bad mental, intellectual, and psychical karma. Cases will occur to readers of persons born in high station having every opportunity and power, yet being imbecile or suddenly becoming insane. NATIONAL and RACIAL KARMA And just as all these phases of the law of karma have sway over the individual man, so they similarly operate upon races, nations, and families. Each race has its karma as a whole. If it be good that race goes forward. If bad it goes out -- annihilated as a race -- though the souls concerned take up their karma in other races and bodies. Nations cannot escape their national karma, and any nation that has acted in a wicked manner must suffer some day, be it soon or late. The karma of the nineteenth century in the West is the karma of Israel, for even the merest tyro can see that the Mosaic influence is the strongest in the European and American nations. The old Aztec and other ancient American peoples died out because their own karma -- the result of their own life as nations in the far past -- fell upon and destroyed them. With nations this heavy operation of karma is always through famine, war, convulsion of nature, and the sterility of the women of the nation. The latter cause comes near the end and sweeps the whole remnant away. And the individual in race or nation is warned by this great doctrine that if he falls into indifference of thought and act, thus molding himself into the general average karma of his race or nation, that national and race karma will at last carry him off in the general destiny. This is why teachers of old cried, "Come ye out and be ye separate." With reincarnation the doctrine of karma explains the misery and suffering of the world, and no room is left to accuse Nature of injustice. The misery of any nation or race is the direct result of the thoughts and acts of the Egos who make up the race or nation. In the dim past they did wickedly and now suffer. They violated the laws of harmony. The immutable rule is that harmony must be restored if violated. So these Egos suffer in making compensation and establishing the equilibrium of the occult cosmos. The whole mass of Egos must go on incarnating and reincarnating in the nation or race until they have all worked out to the end the causes set up. Though the nation may for a time disappear as a physical thing, the Egos that made it do not leave the world, but come out as the makers of some new nation in which they must go on with the task and take either punishment or reward as accords with their karma. Of this law the old Egyptians are an illustration. They certainly rose to a high point of development, and as certainly they were extinguished as a nation. But the souls -- the old Egos -- live on and are now fulfilling their self-made destiny as some other nation now in our period. They may be the new American nation, or the Jews fated to wander up and down in the world and suffer much at the hands of others. This process is perfectly just. Take, for instance, the United States and the Red Indians. The latter have been most shamefully treated by the nation. The Indian Egos will be reborn in the new and conquering people, and as members of that great family will be the means themselves of bringing on the due results for such acts as were done against them when they had red bodies. Thus it has happened before, and so it will come about again. INDIVIDUAL UNHAPPINESS IN ANY LIFE IS EXPLAINED: (a) It is punishment for evil done in past lives; or (b) it is discipline taken up by the Ego for the purpose of eliminating defects or acquiring fortitude and sympathy. When defects are eliminated it is like removing the obstruction in an irrigating canal which then lets the water flow on. Happiness is explained in the same way: the result of prior lives of goodness. ETHICS and MORALS The scientific and self-compelling basis for right ethics is found in these and in no other doctrines. For if right ethics are to be practised merely for themselves, men will not see why, and have never been able to see why, for that reason they should do right. If ethics are to be followed from fear, man is degraded and will surely evade; if the favor of the Almighty, not based on law or justice, be the reason, then we will have just what prevails today -- a code given by Jesus to the west professed by nations and not practised save by the few who would in any case be virtuous. On this subject the Adepts have written the following to be found in the Secret Doctrine: "Nor would the ways of karma be inscrutable were men to work in union and harmony instead of disunion and strife. For our ignorance of those ways -- which one portion of mankind calls the ways of Providence dark and intricate, while another sees in them the action of blind fatalism, and a third simple chance with neither gods nor devils to guide them -- would surely disappear if we would but attribute all these to their correct cause. With right knowledge, or at any rate with a confident conviction that our neighbors will no more work harm to us than we would think of harming them, two-thirds of the world's evil would vanish into thin air. Were no man to hurt his brother, Karma-Nemesis would have neither cause to work for nor weapons to act through. . . . We cut these numerous windings in our destinies daily with our own hands, while we imagine that we are pursuing a track on the royal high road of respectability and duty, and then complain of those ways beings so intricate and so dark. We stand bewildered before the mystery of our own making and the riddles of life that we will not solve, and then accuse the great Sphinx of devouring us. But verily there is not an accident in our lives, not a misshapen day or a misfortune, that could not be traced back to our own doings in this or another life. . . . Knowledge of Karma gives the conviction that if -- 'virtue in distress and vice in triumph Make atheists of Mankind', it is only because that mankind has ever shut its eyes to the great truth that man is himself his own saviour as his own destroyer; that he need not accuse heaven and the gods, fates and providence, of the apparent injustice that reigns in the midst of humanity. But let him rather remember and repeat this bit of Grecian wisdom which warns man to forbear accusing That which 'Just though mysterious, leads us on unerring Through ways unmarked from guilt to punishment' -- which are now the ways and the high road on which move onward the great European nations. The western Aryans had every nation and tribe like their eastern brethren of the fifth race, their Golden and their Iron ages, their period of comparative irresponsibility, or the Satya age of purity, while now several of them have reached their Iron age, the Kali Yuga, an age black with horrors. This state will last . . . until we begin acting from within instead of ever following impulses from without . . . Until then the only palliative is union and harmony -- a Brotherhood in actu and altruism not simply in name." These statements are extracted from Mr. W. Q. Judge=92s The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (Available at http://www.blavatsky.net and at Theosophy Company, Los Angeles D T B _____ Dear Tim: I really am appalled at the sexual deviances mentioned and to which the young were made subject. Nor am I able to account for the imposition of those on the defenseless in this life. Of course it leaves a terrible impression. To =93blame=94 a person for their =94bad Karma=94 is not the point. That would be heartless. Apparently the pleasure that sexual encounters releases is used as a basis for debasing the normal function of trying to procreate children and give them a safe and sane upbringing. Thus =93normal=94 is altered into =93abnormal.=94 But why ? Is perversion unconscious or conscious? I am not going to try to provide answers, as the responses will inevitably lead to special explanations. If one can secure the principles and determine how a virtue is twisted into a vice and used to hurt the psyche of others, then we, and they, will get to go forward and the self-healing, that is so essential, can proceed. But I am assuming that you are assisting. Or is it only observing, and wondering how Theosophy would handle such things. However, to point out that we all get a =93fair shake=94 from the law, implies we opened the door (in a past life most probably) to the present series of abuses. This is seemingly, cold comfort. I would say we need to organize our principles into a basis first for understanding, and then for remedial action, which has to be conducted by the individuals and cannot be imposed by any friend, assistant, or practitioner. But if we apply the idea we are immortals then we can begin to work to shake off those horrible memories. Next life we may to have t pass through such terrible circumstances. One of the things recommended is not to continually dwell on them, because that reinforces them. Now lets take a view of the future and assume reincarnation is a fact. What is to be done by the immortal Ego, now incased in a body with these memories haunting them? First try and forget them. Learn to look on them (in as detached a manner as possible) as an ugly =93learning experience,=94 and see what we might have learned. I would say that compassion for others who might have been subjected similarly comes first. Then this would be followed by seeking for the laws and circumstances of =93normal=94 sex and family life -- assuming that this is not yet quite clear. We note the abhorrence, and regret, and sorrow involved. Apparently the individuals desire to shake off those memories and invoke the power to choose and frame a better way of living for themselves and their families when they have them. That is positive. It also is a proof of the continual balance between vice and virtue that we intuitively know exists. This search for an ideal is important because it then serves, when found as a basis for our motives in future choosing. One observation might be made and that is the effort one might make to eliminate such tendencies and obliterate the kind of sly, =93dirty, =94=94slimy=94 literature and interest in such debasement. And so on. I do hope that this may prove of some help. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Timothy L Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:52 AM To: Subject: [bn-study] RE: Punya Why "do good?" Although I believe that suffering may happen to us through karma, there are a couple of things that I qualify this with. First, taking responsibility for the bad that happens to me is a personal choice. No one should tell me that my afflictions and sufferings are my fault, but I may decide that they are, if I want to. Second, I believe wrong can be done by someone as an independent agent, regardless of karma. The action of karma will punish them, but their victims are not at fault. For example, I have a friend, (I rarely see her anymore) who was nightmarishly sexually abused by her biological father. Her father has perpetuated the abuse well into adulthood, and she is an emotional wreck. She has phobias concerning sex, intimacy, a serious alcohol problem, and you name it. I have done tarot readings for her and it often comes up that there is some karma at work here. In her effort to make sense of something that is really senseless and cruel, she tries to take the blame on herself. I often have told her that I don't think she is in any way responsible for these abuses, that she was a child, and there was nothing she could do. The problem of evil, an evil which I believe in regardless of philosophical logic, is not easily solved. If there are immutable laws why can we break them? While some suffering may be part of life, why are other types of suffering allowed to happen? Why would a perfect being, or thing or whatever, create imperfection? While I believe karma is at work, I don't believe you can blame the victim for everything. I have another friend who was sexually abused by her biological mother and stepfather who were both alcoholics. They often made them strip down and grab their ankles. You can only imagine what she hasn't told me. She is alcoholic, and part of the AA program is to write an inventory of resentments. Needless to say she resents this treatment. The next step in inventory is to find your fault. Her sponsor at the time wanted her to write what she had done wrong in order to receive this treatment as a child. She went and found another sponsor, and I applauded her choice. Tim. CUT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 06 16:40:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 5969 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 00:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 00:40:47 -0000 Received: from pool1116.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.22.96] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189aj0-0002Z4-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:40:46 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:37:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 6 2002 Re: do you mean the VOICE OF THE SILENCE ? I do not know of anything titled The VOICE IN THE SILENCE . Dear Friend: As far as I know H P B never claimed that the VOICE OF THE SILENCE was dictated to her. Perhaps someone knows more about this. She had returned from a brief visit to Paris, Fontainebleau and the Channel Islands, and presented the MSS to her friends at Avenue Rd. in London. They thought it was wonderful. Best wishes, Dallas. -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy C Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:16 PM To: Subject: Voice Of The Silence Could someone please tell me which Master dictated "Voice In The Silence" through HPB. Many thanks Jeremy Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dennw3k@earthlink.net Wed Nov 06 16:45:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 00:45:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 74253 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 00:45:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 00:45:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 00:45:29 -0000 Received: from 1cust207.tnt14.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.9.207] helo=u7k5a4) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189anY-00062Z-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:45:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c285f7$78544480$cf09e043@u7k5a4> To: References: <84.1480c26.2af592c0@aol.com> Subject: Re: subscription --- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:24:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 I recently got an email from YAHOO telling me that I had been somehow "unsubscribed" from this group. They rejected the post that I will try to copy below. This whole thing wasn't my idea, and don't know how someone could go in to YAHOO and get someone else unsubscribed, or even if that is possible. They told me that my box is full, but since I only get 15 to 20 emails a day now, and in the past I have recieved 80 or more without any trouble, I am suspicious that I am not getting the truth about this from them. Here is the email that they rejected once (so far) Dennis ********* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma > Dennis Kier wrote: > > > > I am glad that you noticed. I noticed that you only included the > > survival of Israel in your question. Why didn't you also include the > > survival of the other side? > > Because the other side is not necessarily giving Israel that option. It doesn't look like Israel is giving the other side the option of surviving either. I > am making the assumption that Israel will not perform any action that > will ensure its own destruction, although many people want Israel to do > just that. >But note I am also asking what Israel SHOULD do. If you can > come up with a set of actions Israel can perform that would ensure the > survival of both sides, so much the better. I don't have a clue. But then, that problem has been wrestled with for many years, so I am not alone in that area. I suppose anyone who comes up with a good solution of what Israel SHOULD do would be in line for the Nobel Prize. Karmically, it is said that only Good can overcome Evil, and only Love can overcome Hate. Who is to say which is the Good side? It would depend on your point of view. But it is demonstrated that the Hate and violence that Israel has commited aginst the Palestinians has not worked, only involking more violence against it. I suspect that if Israel would begin practicing Love and justice toward the Slave Territories, the karmic resentment that they have generated for over 50 years, would take hundreds of years to be balanced. But I am an American, and I suspect that you may be also, so it isn't Our problem, except on an intellectual level. I think it will be interesting to see how it works out eventually. I hope that I will be as surprised at what happens, as I was when the Soviet Union collapsed. Dennis From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 06 22:18:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 06:18:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 23217 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 06:18:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 06:18:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 06:18:27 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189fzm-0005px-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 22:18:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCA057A.EC7F74F8@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:17:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- References: <84.1480c26.2af592c0@aol.com> <000601c285f7$78544480$cf09e043@u7k5a4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Dennis Kier wrote: > I suspect that if Israel would begin practicing Love and justice > toward the Slave Territories, the karmic resentment that they have > generated for over 50 years, would take hundreds of years to be > balanced. I notice you use the term "slave territories". Considering that Arab countries practice chattel slavery, and that the Palestinians in the West Bank have far more rights than they would have under virtually any Arab government, that phrasing shows incredible ignorance. Bart Lidofsky From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 07 04:29:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 12:29:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 11875 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 12:29:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 12:29:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 12:29:19 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-31.look.ca ([216.154.45.126] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189lma-0002Jw-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:29:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3DCA5CB8.13107092@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:29:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Wry, Brian . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn >Wry:"unless you are able to help them find something >better to replace it with." >Brian: What Church do you really belong to ? I wonder if you might tell us, Brian, how you define "Church" in the context of that particular question, to begin with . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Good question, in a way, (maybe?), that question about "what Church." Hmm. I wonder what "Church" I might "belong to," as per whatever "preferrrred, current perspective, on my part" (I think I'd have to sort out for myself, first, what I might "mean" by "preferrrred, current perspective, on my part") . . . But before I could even "begin" to "somewhat applicably" answer (or at least respond to) that question about "what Church," I think I would need to know much more about the sense in which all of those words in that question are meant, more-specifically, so . . . what can I say . . . ^:-) PPS that's my symbol for a stumped guy scratching his head . . . PPPS thing is, I seem to like to think that I had a somewhat profound realization, a long time ago, that I don't really know anything, so . . . ^:-) . . . seems as if there's not much point in asking me about my favorite anything much, apparently . . . ie, nstead of "stating" about this and that, (like people seem to be often generally "expected to," or "supposed to," "preferentially"?), I seem to want to keep on "speculating." Sorry about that, guys. But, one of these days . . . PPPPS At one time I seem to have thought that "my favorite color," for example, was blue, (or was it green, or yellow . . .) but, these days, I don't seem to know what it might be. Or maybe if I knew something about the application for a specific color . . . PPPPPS I wonder what color of "Church" that "Brian" might've had in mind, there . . . From llkingston2@juno.com Thu Nov 07 05:45:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 13:45:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 80419 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 13:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 13:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 13:45:19 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUMBC1uymsTB8xGntIHG+hzjA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HGZ2YLJ2; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:44:28 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:34:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Book of Mormon hoax Message-ID: <20021107.083406.-810517.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,9-10,12-40,45-46,54-55,74-75,87-88,92-119,121-124,136-148 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Dear Brian and Steve, I don't know why Mormonism keeps popping up on this site, but to me, there are very significant parallels between the LDS and Theosophy, including the enormous amount of negitive press they have been given over the years, all the energies people have put into discounting them. To me that says that both have been a significant movement and both have been a threat in certain quarters. And the "anti" hype of both movements shares certain characteristics . These allegations pointed out are typical of that energy. On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:19:51 -0000 "Steve Stubbs" writes: > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10570c.htm > > Here is the relevant text: > > "Joseph Smith states that he received the record from the Angel > Moroni in September, 1827. It was, he alleges, engraved upon > metallic > plates having the appearance of gold and each a little thinner than > ordinary tin, the whole forming a book about six inches long, six > inches wide, and six inches thick, bound together by rings. ... The > result was the "Book of Mormon"; ... in the preface eleven > witnesses, > exclusive of Joseph Smith, the translator, claim to have seen the > plates from which it was taken. On renouncing Mormonism > subsequently, > Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris - the three principal witnesses - > declared this testimony false. > > What is interesting about this is that Cowdery, who proclaimed > himself to be a bare faced liar of the lowest possible order when he > > said he saw the golden plates, was not just a witness but Smith's co > > author of the BOM. That is a pretty worrisome defection. It is > almost as bad as if Smith himself had 'fessed up and just about as > significant as to the truthfulness of te angel Moron story. Now let's look at the rest of the story. All the Three witnesses were excommunicated during the 1837-38 period. At that time, hurt, shamed and angered, they made statements out of character for themselves, lashing out whereever they could at those they felt had severely wronged them (including Joseph). Martin Harris returned to Mormonism during the Utah period. He was brought to Utah by Brigham Young and spent his last years there. He was interviewed a number of times including on his deathbed and to the last testified that he had indeed seen the angel and the plates. Harris had mortgaged his farm (for which his wife left him) to get the monies needed to publish the Book of Mormon. Never high in the Church leadership and often a thorn in Joseph's side, he never the less died in full faith in the Church. Oliver Cowdery was a school teacher who served as scribe in the B of M project. He was a joint witness to many events with Joseph and was made the Assistant Church President, the number two man and Joseph's successor. During the severe persecutions of 1837-38, Oliver sold properties he held in Missouri against the counsel of Joseph and spent more time in the practice of law than in his Church duties. Called before a church tribunal, he didn't show and was thus excommunicated. Almost every modern scholar agrees that never shown have happened and had he come to the Church court and argued his case, would have be vindicated. During his separation, after the claims that he had denied his testimony. he stated boldly when challanged in court that he had never denied what he saw, that those claims were lies. As the Church was staging to go to Utah, Oliver came to "Winter Quarters" Nebraska and laid his claim before the Apostles present. He was allowed to address the congregation, where he reafirmed his testimony and begged to be allowed to come back. He was rebaptized and returned to home to settle his affairs and migrate to Utah but died brfore he could do so. He was consumtive. On his deathbed, he again reaffirmed his testimony. Oliver Cowdery is held in high esteem by Mormons today. David Whitmer had his own vision for how Mormonism was suppose to develop and that vision differed sharply with Joseph's. He was also very close to Oliver, in fact Oliver married David's sister Elizabeth. The rift between David and Joseph was not unlike that between William Q. Judge and Annie Besant. So David was also excommunicated. He never returned to the Church but tried to form a new organization based on his vision. That never really happened, but the Church oh Christ Temple Lot has a lot of Whitmerite understandings in their organization. When the reports came out that David had denied his testimony, he wrote an open letter denying that he had done so. This letter is a mixed bag for Utah Mormons, for while it reafirms Davis's belief in Mormonisn in general, it is also highly critical of the path Joseph took and Brigham Young continued. So these reports are like the political assertions that mondale was ahead in his senatorial race and was already being offered a place in the inner circle. The end of the story is that he lost. These reports only go as far as they would like people to go and omit the conclusion. > Cowdery was also accused of enlisting Sidney Rigdon and ripping off > a > novel by a fellow named Spaulding. The premise is that as a writer > he was as unimaginative as he was untalented and untruthful. The > article says of this: > > "Six months after its inception, the Mormon Church sent its first > mission to the American Indians. ... Oliver Cowdery was placed at > the > head of this mission, which also included Parley P. Pratt, a former > preacher of the Reformed Baptists, or Campbellites. The missionaries > > proceeded to northern Ohio, then almost a wilderness, where Elder > Pratt presented to his former pastor, Sidney Rigdon, a copy of > the "Book of Mormon", published several months before. Up to that > time Rigdon had never seen the book, which he was accused of helping > > Smith to write. The Mormons are equally emphatic in their denial of > > the identity of the "Book of Mormon" with Spaulding's "Manuscript > Story", now in Oberlin College; they quote in this connection James > H. Fairchild that institution, who, in a communication to the "New > York Observer" (5 February, 1885), states that Mr. L.L., Rice and > he, > after comparing the "Book of Mormon" and the Spaulding > romance, "could detect no resemblance between the two, in general or detail". > > Maybe so, but I don't buy it. There is really very little similarity betweem the Book of Mormon and Spaulding's narritive. Only the general theme is the same. This is like saying that anyone who write a fantasy which includes orcs and elves is plagiarizing Tolkein. A better senario is that Joseph had between 1820-1827 to dream up the contents of the Book of Mormon and dictated them to Oliver. And as said in earlier posts, while the B of M is indeed dry (cloroform in print) it is also very sublime in it's theology. Who know's what prompted Joseph. Was he a "misguided mystic" as Jerome Wheeler once shared with me? The fact is, that the Book of Mormon is ultimately little different from the Bible, the Koran, and perhaps other scriptures. All are ultimately the works of men, yet all do contain certain eternal truths. Larry Kolts > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From msisson@zaz.com.br Thu Nov 07 06:39:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 14:39:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 81242 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 14:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 14:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ivoti.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 14:39:24 -0000 Received: from botucatu.terra.com.br (botucatu.terra.com.br [200.176.3.78]) by ivoti.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290C8408502 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:39:24 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by botucatu.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813BF29C078 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:39:23 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:39:44 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 Dear Jeremy, The only reference I know about a Master dictating The Voice of the Silence to HPB is given in "The Elder Brother", by Gregory Tillett, p. 302. It says: "Light on the Path was written by Mabel Collins (...) in 1885, under 'inspiration'. Leadbeater, in his introduction to the TPH edition of the book, said the Master Hilarion dictated the book to Mabel Collins, as well as another work, The Idyll of the White Lotus (1884). She, however, denied this, and said no Master had dictated the books; she objected to the TPH editions because of Leadbeater's introductions and notes. (...) The Voice of the Silence was written by HPB, also supposedly through the inspiration of the Master Hilarion, after she had visited a Buddhist monastery in the Himalayas where she obtained a knowledge of the material contained whithin it." Marina -----Mensagem Original----- De: "Jeremy Condick" Para: Enviada em: Terça-feira, 5 de Novembro de 2002 19:15 Assunto: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > Could someone please tell me which Master dictated "Voice In The Silence" > through HPB. > > Many thanks > Jeremy > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 07 08:11:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 16:11:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 81731 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 16:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 16:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 16:11:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 90028 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 16:11:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.242) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 16:11:57 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.242 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 11:11:57(EST) on November 07, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.242 To: Subject: pedantic or inspired? Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:10:53 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c28678$4a524ba0$f2bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At work, someone gets and sends out a dictionary word of the day. Yesterday, it was "pedantic." Reading it, I think of how things are taught sometimes. It is something to be aware of, lest any of us fall into that mode of sharing Theosophy. The word "pedantic," describes a manner of teaching that is pompous and dull, unimaginative, and tediously devoted to a narrow specialty. The opposite might be lively, interesting, imaginative, and inspired. While a certain discipline and mental rigor is necessary to acquire or teach some of the key theosophical ideas, the spiritual, numinous, magical side is also essential. The terms and ideas learned form the mental toolset. The energy or life side of the teaching forms the spiritual transmission, the dharma lineage. -- Eldon >The Word of the Day for November 6 is: > >pedantic \pih-DAN-tik\ (adjective) > *1 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned > 2 : unimaginative, pedestrian > >Example sentence: > "Dr. Sanford is a pedantic old codger, in my opinion," >said Pam, "whereas I find Dr. Wilson to be a lively and >interesting lecturer." > >Did you know? > In Shakespeare's day, a pedant was a male schoolteacher. >The word's meaning was close to that of the Italian "pedante," >from which the English word was adapted. Someone who was >pedantic was simply a tutor or teacher. But a good percentage >of instructional pedants of the day must have been pompous and >dull, because by 1600 both "pedant" and "pedantic" had gained >extended senses referring to anyone who was obnoxiously and >tediously devoted to his or her own academic acumen. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 07 11:43:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 19:43:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 3543 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CFD4E262BB5 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:43:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003f01c28695$3e9fbbe0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's questions and points Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:38:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Thanks so very much for answering Daniel. Your answer is interesting. I think I understand you. All the below was written seeking to make Theosophy and theosophical groups do better PR on the words "races" and "racism". 1. Daniel Caldwell wrote in the below: " In fact, I had previously taken more than an hour to track down the > facts so I could answer the original question you had posed!!" My Sufilight answer and questions: *"What !!! More than ONE hour 'wasted' - is that true?? But Daniel why should that make you stop answering that question or stop searching further information ? Or what should prevent you from even posting this issue on ALL the Mahatma Letters, - i.e. on when they were made public the first time ? A think a Theosophist should always be alert on issues of importance, and make priorities on what has importance. One should answer when one wants to do that. A number of the Mahatma Letters are at http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-con.htm#s1. At the website - about none of them are telling anyone when they were made public the first time ! I.e. distributed in a book or put on the Internet etc. Even at your own website this issue isn't quite clear: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/MLtoLauraHolloway.htm . Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the Mahatma Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on PDF-file or another file-format ?* 2. Daniel Caldwell wrote in the below: "But why should I have taken that time and effort to try to answer > your question when you later admit that "maybe I [you] didn't really > want an answer to that question"???!!!" My Sufilight answer: *I think the above answer is enough. Else anyone are welcome to enlighten me and get a further answer.* 3. Daniel Caldwell wrote in the below: "What could I possibly write in response to those kind of comments?" My Sufilight answer and question: *A whole lot,... I think. But Daniel - my email use some of the 7 keys. This is the quote Daniel questions in the above - look below: "The ML23b is fake in the sense, that no true Master would TODAY > write such a letter and make it publicly known ! Past papers and pas > books are nearly always only recommended to a PAST audience by the > true Master. --- I suggest, this: Let us be more concerned with the > present hour of turmoil, pump and circumstance, than these past > events." My point was the following. We live in an informationssociety today year 2002. I hold it to be true, that we can discuss the past, but we have to relate our discussion to the present (and if possible the future). I think, that the mentioned Mahatma Letter has a content, which will make the Mahatma look like a racist, when one read it dead-letter TODAY. And because of that the letter creates misunderstandings TODAY among thesophical newcomers in our open information-society. I said the above because I felt, that there was a lack in the understanding of the importance the word "RACISM" has TODAY, - and why THIS Mahatma Letter and other relevant Theosophical scriptures has to be related to that issue - called Racism - in a proper manner - showing good PR for the Theosophical cause TODAY year 2002, and not tomorrow. What do you think now Caldwell - was that better ?* 4. I wrote in a previous email the below in full text: *Yes and no. The situation differs because Blavatsky was writing a book, and because she was the person/soul she was, and because A. P. Sinnnett was the person/soul he was. And let us remember, that some still hold it to be true that some of the Mahatma Letters was transferred via some of the CHELAS. And Chelas make mistakes.* In the below Daniel puts a question to only a part of the above text - omitting the last line: "What, pray tell, does that mean? I could NOT answer that point for > the primary reason I was not at all sure exactly what your point > was." My Sufilight answer and question: *Allright. Yes. Blavatsky and her book The Secret Doctrine should be questioned on the issue of racism when read dead-letter. And Theosophical groups ought to properly deal with the book on the issue RACISM and "races". "Time" is running. Blavatsky said that her book would last for about the next 100 years or so. We are now at least 27 years past that date. So when can we declare the scripture to be too old or at least somewhat old? If you answer: Never. I would say you were wrong. What I meant in the above was. A.P. Sinnett or another person could have changed some of the Mahatma Letters using an almost unknown technique of writing before it reached public knowledge - even with the knowledge and approval of A. P. Sinnett, while he was keeping silent about it. And because the manner in which the Mahatma Letters were written in - seems to be given importance, one has to ask the question if any Dugpas with magic capeabilities have changed any of them since their departure from the Mahatma in question, and before they were examined for their style of writing etc... Because of that - a dead-letter knowledge of when they were made public the first time is of importance to the more down-to-earth reader! Blavatsky wrote the book/scripture herself - so any tampering has to be ruled out because she lived some years after its publication. That is a difference!!! Did that help you ?* Katinka Hasselink has a comment racism and Blavatsky: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/faq/explan.htm Brian on Theos-Talk has comments on Mahatma Letter 23b here: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr.html I think that both links somewhat lack understanding the importance of the 7 keys. Any comments on these links ? Eight questions. I will await your answers. To all of you, I say - feel free to do your best... from Sufilight with ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:05 AM Subject: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's questions and points > Morten, > > Earlier this week I was attempting to answer some of your questions > and points as given in your posting at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8405 > > But after I read some of the following comments by you, I decided not > to spend the time and effort it would take to answer all of your > questions and points. > > For example, in one of your comments you wrote: > > "But Daniel maybe I didn't really want an answer to that question. > Maybe I wanted the readers to THINK. To THINK is here to develop > your inner organ - i.e. to merge with your inner being. The person > who first made the Mahatma Letter - ML23b public was maybe a racist > or just stupid...because of the misunderstandings it created and > creates." > > In fact, I had previously taken more than an hour to track down the > facts so I could answer the original question you had posed!! > > But why should I have taken that time and effort to try to answer > your question when you later admit that "maybe I [you] didn't really > want an answer to that question"???!!! > > Or take another comment of yours: > > "The ML23b is fake in the sense, that no true Master would TODAY > write such a letter and make it publicly known ! Past papers and pas > books are nearly always only recommended to a PAST audience by the > true Master. --- I suggest, this: Let us be more concerned with the > present hour of turmoil, pump and circumstance, than these past > events." > > What could I possibly write in response to those kind of comments? > > And since you want us to "be more concerned with the prsent hour of > turmoil", then why waste time responding to your comments > about "these past events? > > Or one more example: > > I had written: > > "But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to > what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could > not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or > somehow faked?" > > and your "Sufilight answer" was in part: > > "Yes and no. The situation differs because Blavatsky was writing a > book, and because she was the person/soul she was, and because A. P. > Sinnnett was the person/soul he was. . . . " > > What, pray tell, does that mean? I could NOT answer that point for > the primary reason I was not at all sure exactly what your point > was. > > I don't mean that all of your comments were similar to the above, but > I felt and still feel that most of what you had written did not > require further comments from me. > > Furthermore, you write that I had never responded to the following > posting by you: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8078 > > I will try to answer your 2 or 3 points in this posting in the next > several days. > > Daniel > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 07 11:53:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 19:53:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 13068 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 19:53:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 19:53:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 19:53:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 30902 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 19:53:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.242) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 19:53:50 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.242 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 14:53:50(EST) on November 07, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.242 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:53:04 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c28697$4cec1840$f2bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <000601c285f7$78544480$cf09e043@u7k5a4> Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Dennis: Has this problem cleared up, or do I still need to look into it? -- Eldon -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:25 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: subscription --- I recently got an email from YAHOO telling me that I had been somehow "unsubscribed" from this group. They rejected the post that I will try to copy below. This whole thing wasn't my idea, and don't know how someone could go in to YAHOO and get someone else unsubscribed, or even if that is possible. They told me that my box is full, but since I only get 15 to 20 emails a day now, and in the past I have recieved 80 or more without any trouble, I am suspicious that I am not getting the truth about this from them. Here is the email that they rejected once (so far) Dennis ********* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma > Dennis Kier wrote: > > > > I am glad that you noticed. I noticed that you only included the > > survival of Israel in your question. Why didn't you also include the > > survival of the other side? > > Because the other side is not necessarily giving Israel that option. It doesn't look like Israel is giving the other side the option of surviving either. I > am making the assumption that Israel will not perform any action that > will ensure its own destruction, although many people want Israel to do > just that. >But note I am also asking what Israel SHOULD do. If you can > come up with a set of actions Israel can perform that would ensure the > survival of both sides, so much the better. I don't have a clue. But then, that problem has been wrestled with for many years, so I am not alone in that area. I suppose anyone who comes up with a good solution of what Israel SHOULD do would be in line for the Nobel Prize. Karmically, it is said that only Good can overcome Evil, and only Love can overcome Hate. Who is to say which is the Good side? It would depend on your point of view. But it is demonstrated that the Hate and violence that Israel has commited aginst the Palestinians has not worked, only involking more violence against it. I suspect that if Israel would begin practicing Love and justice toward the Slave Territories, the karmic resentment that they have generated for over 50 years, would take hundreds of years to be balanced. But I am an American, and I suspect that you may be also, so it isn't Our problem, except on an intellectual level. I think it will be interesting to see how it works out eventually. I hope that I will be as surprised at what happens, as I was when the Soviet Union collapsed. Dennis Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 07 13:14:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 21:14:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 75101 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 21:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 21:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 21:14:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 48197 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 21:15:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.242) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 21:15:21 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.242 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 16:15:21(EST) on November 07, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.242 To: Subject: colored by the culture of the time Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:14:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <003f01c28695$3e9fbbe0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker A few stray comments ... >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > questions and points >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the Mahatma >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on PDF-file or >another file-format ?* The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if they had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would have the final say. >Blavatsky and her book The Secret Doctrine should be >questioned on the issue of racism when read dead-letter. And Theosophical >groups ought to properly deal with the book on the issue RACISM and "races". Anything written in the 1800's would be colored by the culture of the time. Popular prejudices and misconceptions would be ingrained in the language, writing, and manner of speech that people used then. From a different standpoint, we can look back and see things of which the people of the time may not have been aware. If someone reads an older book, the biases of its time will show up. It is not particular to theosophical books. If we want something to appear as unbiased, we need to write something new that communicates the philosophy in modern terms. Even with that, later generations will look back on anything that we write in the 2000's as being biased in ways we do not currently realize, just as we do so upon the writings of the 1800's. Apart from appearing to be biased or not, there is the basic philosophy being communicated. Those with an interest and aptitude will pick it up despite any awkwardness of language in which it may be expressed. Any confusion by a student reading the works is overcome as the study progresses. Even so, I am all for having new introductory books expressed in a fresh, clear, vibrant manner. >Because of that - a dead-letter knowledge of when they were made public the >first time is of importance to the more down-to-earth reader! One thing that might assist the newest theosophical students would be a short introduction to the biases and cultural perspective of HPB's time. This makes it easier to see through to what was actually said. The intent would be to remove any cultural barriers that make it harder for a student to benefit from the philosophy. The intent is the opposite of what an opponent of Theosophy might do with the same cultural differences. An antagonist would look for things that could be misrepresented, painting Theosophy in a bad light, and making it harder for an inquirer to see and consider what it says. This is exactly what is done in a political campaign wherein a candidate looks for any bit of information about the other person running for the office, looking for things that can be used in attacks and character smears. The intent is not to be accurate, truthful, or fair, only to do as much damage as possible to the other's image, with the intent of getting people to come over to the candidate's side. I am for making it clear what the philosophy says, apart from the biases and idiosyncrasies of earlier writers and their particular period of history. The rest of the stuff is historical nit picking, although someone has to sort out the exact details of what really happened. The primary value in Theosophy, as I see it, is the philosophy and spiritual dharma that may go with it. It is not in its use as a particular obscure area of western metaphysics needing to be forced into some particular preconception and proven or disproved according to the bias of any particular historian. -- Eldon From jpcondick@btinternet.com Thu Nov 07 13:16:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 21:16:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 41726 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 21:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 21:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tungsten.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 21:16:30 -0000 Received: from host213-1-75-99.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.75.99] helo=oemcomputer) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 189u0q-0006MF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:16:28 +0000 Message-ID: <008701c286a2$a63f85c0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:40:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:37 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > Nov 6 2002 > > Re: do you mean the VOICE OF THE SILENCE ? > I do not know of anything titled The VOICE IN THE SILENCE . > > Dear Friend: > > As far as I know H P B never claimed that the VOICE OF THE SILENCE was > dictated to her. > > Perhaps someone knows more about this. She had returned from a brief > visit to Paris, Fontainebleau and the Channel Islands, and presented > the MSS to her friends at Avenue Rd. in London. They thought it was > wonderful. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas. Dallas, Many thanks for your reply, yes I did mean Of the Silence, not IN. Thanks for taking the time to reply to this. I had read on some web site that the Master Hilarion had helped her with some of the more difficult translations. There are one or two lines which remind me of one or two quotes from the Temple Teachings of FLD. Kind Regards Jeremy From jpcondick@btinternet.com Thu Nov 07 13:26:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 21:26:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 64383 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 21:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 21:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 21:26:33 -0000 Received: from host213-1-75-99.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.75.99] helo=oemcomputer) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 189uAZ-0002dU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:26:32 +0000 Message-ID: <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:15:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marina Sisson" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > Dear Jeremy, > > The only reference I know about a Master dictating The Voice of the Silence > to HPB is given in "The Elder Brother", by Gregory Tillett, p. 302. It says: > > "Light on the Path was written by Mabel Collins (...) in 1885, under > 'inspiration'. Leadbeater, in his introduction to the TPH edition of the > book, said the Master Hilarion dictated the book to Mabel Collins, as well > as another work, The Idyll of the White Lotus (1884). She, however, denied > this, and said no Master had dictated the books; she objected to the TPH > editions because of Leadbeater's introductions and notes. (...) The Voice > of the Silence was written by HPB, also supposedly through the inspiration > of the Master Hilarion, after she had visited a Buddhist monastery in the > Himalayas where she obtained a knowledge of the material contained whithin > it." > > Marina Thankyou Marina, yes I have also read similar, many thanks. Jeremy From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 07 14:19:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 22:19:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 15286 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 22:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 22:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 22:19:45 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E6C0262D9A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:19:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000701c286ab$1466b480$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:14:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Eldon and all of you, Thanks Eldon! This was what I was getting at! But if the theosophical groups was making a stronger effort on the issue of "racism" and a stronger effort on the importance of a "global culturally unbiased perspective" for the theosophical newcomers - then that could make Theosophy a more relevant and even a very important "player" on the Planet. As it is now. Theosophy as such has some problems, which has to be dealt with - rather sooner than later. Martin Luther King Jr. holds a great torch when he states the following (although to a different audience): "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. And what goes for an individual and a nation, that also goes for Theosophical groups ("tribes") and organizations with their nit-pickings and small-talks about other theosophical groups !!! from Sufilight with a happy smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 10:14 PM Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > A few stray comments ... > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > questions and points > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the Mahatma > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on PDF-file or > >another file-format ?* > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if they > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would have > the final say. > > >Blavatsky and her book The Secret Doctrine should be > >questioned on the issue of racism when read dead-letter. And > Theosophical > >groups ought to properly deal with the book on the issue RACISM and > "races". > > Anything written in the 1800's would be colored by the culture of the > time. Popular prejudices and misconceptions would be ingrained in the > language, writing, and manner of speech that people used then. From a > different standpoint, we can look back and see things of which the > people of the time may not have been aware. > > If someone reads an older book, the biases of its time will show up. It > is not particular to theosophical books. If we want something to appear > as unbiased, we need to write something new that communicates the > philosophy in modern terms. Even with that, later generations will look > back on anything that we write in the 2000's as being biased in ways we > do not currently realize, just as we do so upon the writings of the > 1800's. > > Apart from appearing to be biased or not, there is the basic philosophy > being communicated. Those with an interest and aptitude will pick it up > despite any awkwardness of language in which it may be expressed. Any > confusion by a student reading the works is overcome as the study > progresses. Even so, I am all for having new introductory books > expressed in a fresh, clear, vibrant manner. > > >Because of that - a dead-letter knowledge of when they were made public > the > >first time is of importance to the more down-to-earth reader! > > One thing that might assist the newest theosophical students would be a > short introduction to the biases and cultural perspective of HPB's time. > This makes it easier to see through to what was actually said. The > intent would be to remove any cultural barriers that make it harder for > a student to benefit from the philosophy. > > The intent is the opposite of what an opponent of Theosophy might do > with the same cultural differences. An antagonist would look for things > that could be misrepresented, painting Theosophy in a bad light, and > making it harder for an inquirer to see and consider what it says. This > is exactly what is done in a political campaign wherein a candidate > looks for any bit of information about the other person running for the > office, looking for things that can be used in attacks and character > smears. The intent is not to be accurate, truthful, or fair, only to do > as much damage as possible to the other's image, with the intent of > getting people to come over to the candidate's side. > > I am for making it clear what the philosophy says, apart from the biases > and idiosyncrasies of earlier writers and their particular period of > history. The rest of the stuff is historical nit picking, although > someone has to sort out the exact details of what really happened. The > primary value in Theosophy, as I see it, is the philosophy and spiritual > dharma that may go with it. It is not in its use as a particular obscure > area of western metaphysics needing to be forced into some particular > preconception and proven or disproved according to the bias of any > particular historian. > > -- Eldon > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 07 15:25:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 23:25:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 87557 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 23:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 23:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 23:25:54 -0000 Received: from pool0148.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.148] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 189w0O-0000Ou-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:24:09 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- Chapter 3 -- THE EARTH CHAIN -- 7 Principles and "Gloges"-- in the "OCEAN" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:19:34 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 8 2002 Dear Friends : In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's evolution and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" ( see S D I 200 diagram ). This subject was discussed at length in the "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY". Here are some answers that were published on this subject in ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS -- by R. Crosbie. Perhaps this might help us D T B ============================= CHAPTER III THE EARTH CHAIN ( OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ) p. 50 A to Q. Summary THE doctrine respecting the Earth. It is seven fold also. It is one of a chain of seven corresponding to man. The whole seven are not in a chain separated as to members, but they inter penetrate each other. The Earth chain is the rein carnation of a former old and now dead chain. This old chain was one of which our Moon is the visible representative. Moon now dead and contracting. Venus, Mars, etc., are living members of other similar chains to ours. A mass of Egos for each chain. The number, though incalculable, is definite. Their course of evolution through the seven globes. In each a certain part of our nature is developed. At the fourth globe (OUR POSITION NOW) the process of condensation is be gun and reaches its limit. ============================================== INTRODUCTORY REMARKS In our study of the "Ocean", we must ever bear in mind the sequence of its chapters. The First Chapter presents the fact, as well as evidence of, the existence of Masters of Wisdom, the results of evolution of past civilizations. It is from this body of perfected human beings that all Divine Teachers and Reformers have come; all great religions of the world have sprung from teachings of one or more of Their number. What They have given out to Their disciples and to the people of any period, was necessarily limited to the power of assimilation and use by the minds of the time, but the basic ideas and principles have ever been the same. That which is now given out by Them is known as "Theosophy," and has been recorded in books accessible to every one, and is in fact a more complete revelation than the world has any record of. Because of the general intelligence of this present .period, it was possible to so present the knowledge the Masters desired to convey to humanity-in books, a fact which avoids the danger of intermediaries and interpreters, with their assumed authoritative statements and perversions, and places, the enquirer face to face with the "message" itself. The Second Chapter, as we have seen, deals with the general laws governing the universe as a whole; and the present Third Chapter deals particularly with our Earth, its nature and formation; its relation to other planets, its present stage of development, and that of the human egos who people it and are definitely connected with it, as well as the sever al stages yet before us and it. Under the general laws governing all manifestation on Earth is shown to be of a seven-fold nature, its evolution or unfolding proceeding from within- from the finest substance by successive stages to the most dense and concrete forms of matter. We will therefore understand that all forms and all beings unfold in a similar way, and that in, each case all the stages of densification, are present and intermingle at every point; in other words, the first state of substance is not destroyed or changed by the formation of the more concrete stages; the second stage is contained within the first, the third stage within the first and second and soon; at the same tine these stages must not be conceived of as being separate like the layers of an onion, but as being ever, present one within the other at every point, intermingled and interblended. And we have further to remember that IT IS CONSCIOUSNESS AND INTELLIGENCE that are the producers of every form and state of substance or matter; from the smallest atom to the most highly evolved being, EVERY FORM IS AN EXPRESSION OF THE DEGREE OF INTELLIGENCE WITHIN. ========================================================== Questions & Answers Q. The chapter speaks of "Egos" coming from the Moon chain, should we not rather call them "Monads"? A. Why should we call them monads when the Teacher says "Egos"? Ego means a self-conscious being, the triad Atma-Buddhi-Manas, and "Monad" refers to Atma-Buddhi, the universal spirit and the consciousness unfolded in every kingdom and every class of being. "Monad" applies to the mineral, vegetable, animal and human-as well as other kingdoms not under consideration. Q. What is meant by the Earth "is an entity and not a mere lump of gross matter"? A. There is no such thing as gross matter existing of itself. All forms of matter are the productions of different degrees of intelligence. The earth is an entity because it is a combination of many degrees of intelligence in their evolved forms. Our bodies are entities; they are composed of many small lives, all working co-ordinately for the benefit and use of the greater intelligence which brought them together-the ego-and who has trained them in their separate modes of co-ordinate action. Q. Has the Earth a synthetic consciousness, a ruling intelligence? A. Not in the sense of any particular being. The so-called Rulers of the earth and the seven planets most directly connected with the earth-such as Venus, Mars, Mercury, etc.,-are classes of beings, each class constituting a hierarchy, the influence of which acts as a whole upon other classes. Each hierarchy has its own specific quality and kind of influence. The synthetic or binding power is that of the spiritually self-conscious beings; the universe is ruled and guided from within. p.52 Q. In the Secret Doctrine (Vol. II, page 87) it says: "There was a spiritual, a psychic, an intellectual, and an animal evolution, from the highest to the lowest, as well as a physical development-from the simple and homogeneous, up to the more complex and heterogeneous . . . " Then the physical and animal are not the same? A. Evidently not. The word "animal" in this case means the evolution from below, from the mineral and vegetable kingdoms to the animal; whereas "physical" here means a form evolved from the matter (lives) of the three lower kingdoms by self conscious beings (egos) for their occupation, use, and as instruments on the terrestrial plane. The physical evolution is the link which affords contact for self-conscious entities with the lower world. Q. What is a Round? A. As the Secret Doctrine discloses, there are seven states or conditions of our Earth united in one mass. Evolution begins in the highest state of substance and works downward upon and through three further more condensed stages, making four in all; having reached the fourth or lowest stage, evolution works upward through the stages produced and worked in during the descent, all the experience gained in the descent being carried into the higher stages. Each time the evolution begins in the highest stage and returns to it again is called a "Round". Q. What does each Round produce? A. To give the Sanscrit 'words which designate the elements produced would not be useful at present, but we can understand the significance of such words as Fire, Air, Water, Earth as correspondences. Each Round develops One Element and a nature and humanity corresponding to it. The Earth, such as we know it now, had no existence before the Fourth Round. The earth was fiery, cool and radiant, as were its ethereal men and animals during the First Round; luminous and more dense and heavy during the Second Round; watery during the Third; earthy during the Fourth Round. With the evolution of the elements comes the development of the senses. Each element adds to its own characteristics those of its predecessor-thus: ( from S D II 107 ) 1. Ether Hearing Sound 2. Air Touch Sound and Touch 3. Fire Sight Sound, Touch and Color 4. Water Taste Sound, Touch, Color, Taste 5. Earth Smell Sound, Touch, Color, Taste, Smell Ether corresponds to Sound-vibration, and precedes the differentiated elements. Air properly comes next, for it is everywhere felt; the others follow in natural sequence. Q. Why is it that while we are in the Fourth Round only we have Five Senses? A. We are past the middle point of the Fourth Round, but we are in the Fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root Race. Animals have five senses as well as Men. Q. Why is it that animals have keener senses than Men? A. Animals depend upon their senses for selecting food, avoiding dangers, etc. In their wild state these senses are very keen because of that dependence; domesticated animals lose much of that keen ness. Man depends upon mind and desire, the senses being largely auxiliaries to desire, and also being dulled by excessive and abnormal variety of usage. Q. What is a Round? Would circling around the seven centers of consciousness on one plane of sub stance be a Round? A. The answer to, "What does a Round pro duce?", in a previous question should be thought over. The latter part of the question is ambiguous. Each unit is a center of consciousness. All units pass through seven states of substance, beginning with the most ethereal to the most concrete (the fourth stage, the physical) then ascending from that stage through and back to the most ethereal again plus the experience gained. Each Round repeats this "circling" in a more condensed way until the middle point of the Fourth Round, when the process tends towards an etherealization in each succeeding Round, until at the end of the Seventh Round all units have arrived again at the starting point plus the experience gained. (See Diagram, page 153, S. D. Vol. I.) Q. What is the "Fourth Dimension"? A. The term is a mistaken one: there are not "four dimensions," but "three"-viz., length, breadth and thickness. What scientists are endeavoring to postulate in the use of such a term is a perception of the characteristics of matter beyond the generally recognized three-dimensional one. The following from the Secret Doctrine is on this subject :-"Matter has extension, colour, motion (molecular motion), taste, and smell, corresponding to the existing senses of man, and by the time that it fully develops the next characteristic-let us call it for the moment PERMEABILITY-this will correspond to the next sense of man-let us call it 'NORMAL CLAIRVOYANCE'; thus, when some bold thinkers have been thirsting for a fourth dimension to ex plain the passage of matter through matter, and the production of knots upon an endless cord, what they were really in want of, was a sixth characteristic of matter. The three dimensions belong really but to one at tribute or characteristic of matter-extension; and popular common sense justly rebels against the idea that under any condition of things there can be more than three of such dimensions as length, breadth, and thick ness. These terms, and the term 'dimension' itself, all belong to one plane of thought, to one stage of evolution, to one characteristic of matter . . . from the time the idea of measurement first occupied a place in the human understanding, it has been possible to apply measurement in three directions and no more. But these considerations do not militate in any way against the certainty that in the progress of time-as the faculties of humanity are multiplied-so will the characteristics of matter be multiplied also." (S. D. Vol. I, pages 251, 252.) Q. Are the preceding Globes contained in the ones that follow? A. Neither the primordial substance from which all other grades are produced, nor these other grades themselves disappear during the concretion of matter. All that has been accomplished in the way of manifestation remains as lines of communication, step by step from the highest to lowest. The globes are united in one mass of septenary substances, interpenetrated and interblended All substances and forms of matter are produced by the "Soul" and exist for Its purpose, and are parts of a continuous process. Just as the elements "fire, air, water and earth" are interblended in our bodies and constitute them, so with the earth we live on. Q. You spoke of the internal power being all the power there is. Is there not an external power between the planets in their rotary motion? A. The external power of anything springs from and is maintained by the internal power at the center of everything. 1 speak of the centrifugal and centripetal forces as being those which maintain the equipoise, but forces do not exist of themselves, they are the exhibitions of "energy" and energy is always produced by beings, either singly or in mass. Consciousness is at the root of all beings. Q. What is meant (page 23) by "The earth is one of seven globes, in respect to man's consciousness only"? A. As before explained, the earth is composed of seven states or degrees of substance. Man also has seven principles or "sheaths of the soul", corresponding to and in relation with the substances of which the earth is composed; in other words, the various embodiments or principles of Man are drawn from the various sub stances which compose the earth as a septenary mass. When Man is functioning through the physical body, he is conscious of the physical plane, or physical state of the globe. The others not being perceived are non existent as far as his physical perceptions are concerned. When he functions on a higher plane of consciousness and substance, he sees that e state of the globe and not the physical, and so on with all the rest. He does not go anywhere in order to function on higher states of the globe, but uses a higher principle within "himself". So, while there are seven states of our globe, they are only existent for Man when he perceives them. In the S. D., pages 604, 605, Vol. I, the following statement is made: "When, therefore, the Secret Doctrine-postulating that conditioned or limited space (location) has no real being except in this world of illusion, or, in other words, in our perceptive faculties- teaches that every one of the higher, as of the lower worlds, is interblended with our own objective world; that millions of things and beings are, in point of localization, around and in us, as we are around, with, and in them; it is no metaphysical figure of speech, but a sober fact in Nature, however incomprehensible to our senses." Q. Can Man be conscious on more than one plane at a time? A. He cannot be fully conscious on more than one plane at a time; attention divided between two planes would give a mixed and divided perception of both. Q. How could a perfected man, being conscious ness itself, be unconscious on any plane? A. There is some confusion in this question. "Consciousness itself" indicates the power, or ability to perceive, regardless of its application to any particular plane or thing. Being conscious on any plane means the applying of one's power to perceive, to the objects of that plane. Q. We speak of the Lunar Pitris as our physical progenitors. Does that mean that they were devoid of intelligence? A. Intelligence is at the root of all forms, but there are many degrees of intelligence. The Lunar Pitris are that form of physical embodiment which was evolved on the Moon and used by incarnating egos on that planet. They represent and are the Physical line of evolution; as the Secret Doctrine says, they are our physical progenitors; our bodies are the continuance of that line. Q. The moon is said to be a dead planet, and the statement made that it affects the earth. How can a dead planet affect the earth or its organisms? A. The Moon is the former habitation of the stream of evolution now going on this earth. As a congeries of progressive beings, it is disintegrating; its higher beings and principles are now proceeding on this planet and constitute it as it now is. Yet the Moon as a decaying world still exists, as a corpse exists after the departure of the living person who inhabited it. The corpse decays and the lives which compose it tend to separate and enter into their respective kingdoms. In this separation of lives and elements, an effect is produced, some of which is beneficial to the living organisms and some deleterious. If we remember that the Moon represents the Kama Rupa, as well as the physical body of that planet, and apply what we know of the Human corpses and Kama Rupas to it, we may obtain a better conception of the effects. Q. What sets limits to the number of Monads that enter the human kingdom? A. Simply the number of monads that have progressed far enough to enter it. The middle point of this stream of evolution being passed, and incipient humans having to begin as such on the highest plane of substance, and human evolution having reached its Fourth stage in this Round, and also the middle point of the Seven Rounds, monads from the animal kingdom cannot-in the nature of time and opportunity-reach the incipient human stage until the Seventh Round. This is no detriment to them, for their intelligence has not reached that point where they are sensible of the difference, and their progress towards the human point of entrance is not barred in the meantime. =============================================== DTB From msisson@zaz.com.br Fri Nov 08 05:56:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 13:56:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 24360 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 13:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 13:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO itaqui.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.19) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 13:56:30 -0000 Received: from una.terra.com.br (una.terra.com.br [200.176.3.32]) by itaqui.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604BB3BC5A9 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:56:29 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by una.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DF12F0084 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:56:28 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <001701c2872e$b56a8ea0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:56:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar Dear Jeremy, Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? many thanks, Marina From rpouncy@attbi.com Fri Nov 08 06:36:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rpouncy@attbi.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 14:36:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 85270 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 14:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 14:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rwcrmhc53.attbi.com) (204.127.198.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 14:36:45 -0000 Received: from movies ([24.130.126.133]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021108143645.PZW25494.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@movies> for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:36:45 +0000 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- Chapter 3 -- THE EARTH CHAIN -- 7 Principles and "Gloges"-- in the "OCEAN" Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:31:57 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal From: "Richard Pouncy" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=108372510 X-Yahoo-Profile: rpouncy99 Hello one and all; I have a question concerning the question for the Ocean. Would the answer to this question explain why people with schizophrenia have a hard time understanding what is real and what is not? --- Question from Ocean --- Q. Can Man be conscious on more than one plane at a time? A. He cannot be fully conscious on more than one plane at a time; attention divided between two planes would give a mixed and divided perception of both. Thank you. Richard Pouncy From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 07:43:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 15:43:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 84466 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 15:43:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 15:43:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 15:43:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 15:43:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:43:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 31528 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. =20 THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT FROM=20 ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY TO=20 HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 FOLLOWERS. HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SO- CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL-CONSUMING=20 SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY HAVE=20 DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR SPECIAL- NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 =20 THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO GIVE=20 THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 SOULS.=20 =20 ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT THOUGHT=20 SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 SOCIETY.=20 =20 THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT=20 THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 =20 IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 =20 =20 Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 lineage=85=20 THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA (ACTIVITY)=20=20 AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK (BLUE) ,=20 GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE KIND=20 OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE TARA,=20 GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON THE=20 TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY ON=20 THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX SYMBOLIC=20 COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE LORD=20 AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH THE=20 ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA, GUNA,=20 LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT THERE=20 IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 =20 IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR VAISHAS=20=20 AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 ARYANISM.=20=20 TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO REMOVE=20 VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT=20 BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES. THEY=20 EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES, OR=20 THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE THE=20 IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH IN=20 INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF SRI=20 KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE TRADITION=20 ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO SUPPORT=20 THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN=20 RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO CONTROL=20 THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO HIS=20 ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES OF=20 CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 =20 SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT ALL.=20=20=20 THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE INTERPRETED=20 AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! =20 THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM, DEVOID=20 OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA=20 ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN=20 THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE=20 HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF=20 THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA=20 VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE THE=20 BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN COLORS.=20=20 HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA) OR=20 SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. ( I=20 WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED=20 BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK=20 MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK /=20 GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA=20 OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called=20 me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can=20 call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne,=20 whatever.=20 The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to the=20 question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a concocted=20 Fraud. Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "..." ? Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER' that=20 THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY=20 REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND UNDISCIPLINED=20 HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND THE=20 MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS THE=20 PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT AND=20 WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN, THEN=20 WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT IN 'THEIR'=20 LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL-WORLD=20 INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO YOU=20 THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORLD=20 WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE, WHO=20 NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS' WERE=20 MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS OF,=20 AND NOTHING MORE. =20=20 =20 --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Nov 8 2002 >=20 > Dear Friends : >=20 > In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's=20 evolution > and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" > ( see S D I 200 diagram ). >=20 > This subject was discussed at length in the "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY". >=20 >=20 > Here are some answers that were published on this subject in=20 ANSWERS > TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS --=20 by R. > Crosbie. >=20 > Perhaps this might help us >=20 > D T B >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > CHAPTER III >=20 > THE EARTH CHAIN ( OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ) p. 50 A to Q. >=20 > Summary >=20 > THE doctrine respecting the Earth. > It is seven fold also. > It is one of a chain of seven corresponding to man. > The whole seven are not in a chain separated as to members, but they > inter penetrate each other. > The Earth chain is the rein carnation of a former old and now dead > chain. > This old chain was one of which our Moon is the visible > representative. > Moon now dead and contracting. > Venus, Mars, etc., are living members of other similar chains to ours. > A mass of Egos for each chain. > The number, though incalculable, is definite. > Their course of evolution through the seven globes. > In each a certain part of our nature is developed. > At the fourth globe (OUR POSITION NOW) the process of=20 condensation is > be gun and reaches its limit. >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > INTRODUCTORY REMARKS >=20 > In our study of the "Ocean", we must ever bear in mind the sequence=20 of > its chapters. >=20 > The First Chapter presents the fact, as well as evidence of, the > existence of Masters of Wisdom, the results of evolution of past > civilizations. It is from this body of perfected human beings that all > Divine Teachers and Reformers have come; all great religions of the > world have sprung from teachings of one or more of Their number.=20 What > They have given out to Their disciples and to the people of any > period, was necessarily limited to the power of assimilation and use > by the minds of the time, but the basic ideas and principles have ever > been the same. >=20 > That which is now given out by Them is known as "Theosophy," and=20 has > been recorded in books accessible to every one, and is in fact a more > complete revelation than the world has any record of. Because of the > general intelligence of this present .period, it was possible to so > present the knowledge the Masters desired to convey to humanity-in > books, a fact which avoids the danger of intermediaries and > interpreters, with their assumed authoritative statements and > perversions, and places, the enquirer face to face with the "message" > itself. >=20 >=20 > The Second Chapter, as we have seen, deals with the general laws > governing the universe as a whole; and the present Third Chapter=20 deals > particularly with our Earth, its nature and formation; its relation to > other planets, its present stage of development, and that of the human > egos who people it and are definitely connected with it, as well as > the sever al stages yet before us and it. >=20 >=20 > Under the general laws governing all manifestation on Earth is shown > to be of a seven-fold nature, its evolution or unfolding proceeding > from within- from the finest substance by successive stages to the > most dense and concrete forms of matter. We will therefore=20 understand > that all forms and all beings unfold in a similar way, and that in, > each case all the stages of densification, are present and intermingle > at every point; in other words, the first state of substance is not > destroyed or changed by the formation of the more concrete stages;=20 the > second stage is contained within the first, the third stage within the > first and second and soon; at the same tine these stages must not be > conceived of as being separate like the layers of an onion, but as > being ever, present one within the other at every point, intermingled > and interblended. >=20 > And we have further to remember that IT IS CONSCIOUSNESS AND > INTELLIGENCE that are the producers of every form and state of > substance or matter; from the smallest atom to the most highly=20 evolved > being, EVERY FORM IS AN EXPRESSION OF THE DEGREE OF=20 INTELLIGENCE > WITHIN. >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Questions & Answers >=20 >=20 > Q. The chapter speaks of "Egos" coming from the Moon chain, should=20 we > not rather call them "Monads"? >=20 > A. Why should we call them monads when the Teacher says "Egos"?=20 Ego > means a self-conscious being, the triad Atma-Buddhi-Manas,=20 and "Monad" > refers to Atma-Buddhi, the universal spirit and the consciousness > unfolded in every kingdom and every class of being. "Monad" applies to > the mineral, vegetable, animal and human-as well as other kingdoms=20 not > under consideration. >=20 >=20 > Q. What is meant by the Earth "is an entity and not a mere lump of > gross matter"? >=20 > A. There is no such thing as gross matter existing of itself. All > forms of matter are the productions of different degrees of > intelligence. The earth is an entity because it is a combination of > many degrees of intelligence in their evolved forms. Our bodies are > entities; they are composed of many small lives, all working > co-ordinately for the benefit and use of the greater intelligence > which brought them together-the ego-and who has trained them in=20 their > separate modes of co-ordinate action. >=20 >=20 > Q. Has the Earth a synthetic consciousness, a ruling intelligence? >=20 > A. Not in the sense of any particular being. The so-called Rulers of > the earth and the seven planets most directly connected with the > earth-such as Venus, Mars, Mercury, etc.,-are classes of beings, each > class constituting a hierarchy, the influence of which acts as a whole > upon other classes. Each hierarchy has its own specific quality and > kind of influence. The synthetic or binding power is that of the > spiritually self-conscious beings; the universe is ruled and guided > from within. > p.52 >=20 >=20 > Q. In the Secret Doctrine (Vol. II, page 87) it says: "There was a > spiritual, a psychic, an intellectual, and an animal evolution, from > the highest to the lowest, as well as a physical development-from the > simple and homogeneous, up to the more complex and=20 heterogeneous . . . > " Then the physical and animal are not the same? >=20 > A. Evidently not. The word "animal" in this case means the evolution > from below, from the mineral and vegetable kingdoms to the animal; > whereas "physical" here means a form evolved from the matter (lives) > of the three lower kingdoms by self conscious beings (egos) for their > occupation, use, and as instruments on the terrestrial plane. The > physical evolution is the link which affords contact for > self-conscious entities with the lower world. >=20 >=20 > Q. What is a Round? >=20 > A. As the Secret Doctrine discloses, there are seven states or > conditions of our Earth united in one mass. Evolution begins in the > highest state of substance and works downward upon and through=20 three > further more condensed stages, making four in all; having reached the > fourth or lowest stage, evolution works upward through the stages > produced and worked in during the descent, all the experience gained > in the descent being carried into the higher stages. Each time the > evolution begins in the highest stage and returns to it again is > called a "Round". >=20 >=20 > Q. What does each Round produce? >=20 > A. To give the Sanscrit 'words which designate the elements produced > would not be useful at present, but we can understand the significance > of such words as Fire, Air, Water, Earth as correspondences. Each > Round develops One Element and a nature and humanity=20 corresponding to > it. The Earth, such as we know it now, had no existence before the > Fourth Round. The earth was fiery, cool and radiant, as were its > ethereal men and animals during the First Round; luminous and more > dense and heavy during the Second Round; watery during the Third; > earthy during the Fourth Round. With the evolution of the elements > comes the development of the senses. Each element adds to its own > characteristics those of its predecessor-thus: ( from S D II 107 ) >=20 > 1. Ether Hearing Sound >=20 > 2. Air Touch Sound and Touch >=20 > 3. Fire Sight Sound, Touch and Color >=20 > 4. Water Taste Sound, Touch, Color, Taste >=20 > 5. Earth Smell Sound, Touch, Color, Taste, Smell >=20 > Ether corresponds to Sound-vibration, and precedes the differentiated > elements. Air properly comes next, for it is everywhere felt; the > others follow in natural sequence. >=20 >=20 > Q. Why is it that while we are in the Fourth Round only we have Five > Senses? >=20 > A. We are past the middle point of the Fourth Round, but we are in the > Fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root Race. Animals have five senses as > well as Men. >=20 >=20 > Q. Why is it that animals have keener senses than Men? >=20 > A. Animals depend upon their senses for selecting food, avoiding > dangers, etc. In their wild state these senses are very keen because > of that dependence; domesticated animals lose much of that keen=20 ness. > Man depends upon mind and desire, the senses being largely=20 auxiliaries > to desire, and also being dulled by excessive and abnormal variety of > usage. >=20 >=20 > Q. What is a Round? Would circling around the seven centers of > consciousness on one plane of sub stance be a Round? >=20 > A. The answer to, "What does a Round pro duce?", in a previous > question should be thought over. The latter part of the question is > ambiguous. Each unit is a center of consciousness. All units pass > through seven states of substance, beginning with the most ethereal to > the most concrete (the fourth stage, the physical) then ascending from > that stage through and back to the most ethereal again plus the > experience gained. Each Round repeats this "circling" in a more > condensed way until the middle point of the Fourth Round, when the > process tends towards an etherealization in each succeeding Round, > until at the end of the Seventh Round all units have arrived again at > the starting point plus the experience gained. (See Diagram, page 153, > S. D. Vol. I.) >=20 >=20 > Q. What is the "Fourth Dimension"? >=20 > A. The term is a mistaken one: there are not "four dimensions," but > "three"-viz., length, breadth and thickness. What scientists are > endeavoring to postulate in the use of such a term is a perception of > the characteristics of matter beyond the generally recognized > three-dimensional one. The following from the Secret Doctrine is on > this subject :-"Matter has extension, colour, motion (molecular > motion), taste, and smell, corresponding to the existing senses of > man, and by the time that it fully develops the next > characteristic-let us call it for the moment PERMEABILITY-this will > correspond to the next sense of man-let us call it 'NORMAL > CLAIRVOYANCE'; thus, when some bold thinkers have been thirsting=20 for a > fourth dimension to ex plain the passage of matter through matter,=20 and > the production of knots upon an endless cord, what they were really in > want of, was a sixth characteristic of matter. The three dimensions > belong really but to one at tribute or characteristic of > matter-extension; and popular common sense justly rebels against the > idea that under any condition of things there can be more than three > of such dimensions as length, breadth, and thick ness. These terms, > and the term 'dimension' itself, all belong to one plane of thought, > to one stage of evolution, to one characteristic of matter . . . from > the time the idea of measurement first occupied a place in the human > understanding, it has been possible to apply measurement in three > directions and no more. But these considerations do not militate in > any way against the certainty that in the progress of time-as the > faculties of humanity are multiplied-so will the characteristics of > matter be multiplied also." (S. D. Vol. I, pages 251, 252.) >=20 >=20 > Q. Are the preceding Globes contained in the ones that follow? >=20 > A. Neither the primordial substance from which all other grades are > produced, nor these other grades themselves disappear during the > concretion of matter. All that has been accomplished in the way of > manifestation remains as lines of communication, step by step from=20 the > highest to lowest. The globes are united in one mass of septenary > substances, interpenetrated and interblended All substances and=20 forms > of matter are produced by the "Soul" and exist for Its purpose, and > are parts of a continuous process. Just as the elements "fire, air, > water and earth" are interblended in our bodies and constitute them, > so with the earth we live on. >=20 >=20 > Q. You spoke of the internal power being all the power there is. Is > there not an external power between the planets in their rotary > motion? >=20 > A. The external power of anything springs from and is maintained by > the internal power at the center of everything. 1 speak of the > centrifugal and centripetal forces as being those which maintain the > equipoise, but forces do not exist of themselves, they are the > exhibitions of "energy" and energy is always produced by beings, > either singly or in mass. Consciousness is at the root of all beings. >=20 >=20 > Q. What is meant (page 23) by "The earth is one of seven globes, in > respect to man's consciousness only"? >=20 > A. As before explained, the earth is composed of seven states or > degrees of substance. Man also has seven principles or "sheaths of the > soul", corresponding to and in relation with the substances of which > the earth is composed; in other words, the various embodiments or > principles of Man are drawn from the various sub stances which=20 compose > the earth as a septenary mass. When Man is functioning through the > physical body, he is conscious of the physical plane, or physical > state of the globe. The others not being perceived are non existent as > far as his physical perceptions are concerned. When he functions on a > higher plane of consciousness and substance, he sees that e state of > the globe and not the physical, and so on with all the rest. He does > not go anywhere in order to function on higher states of the globe, > but uses a higher principle within "himself". So, while there are > seven states of our globe, they are only existent for Man when he > perceives them. In the S. D., pages 604, 605, Vol. I, the following > statement is made: "When, therefore, the Secret Doctrine-postulating > that conditioned or limited space (location) has no real being except > in this world of illusion, or, in other words, in our perceptive > faculties- teaches that every one of the higher, as of the lower > worlds, is interblended with our own objective world; that millions of > things and beings are, in point of localization, around and in us, as > we are around, with, and in them; it is no metaphysical figure of > speech, but a sober fact in Nature, however incomprehensible to our > senses." >=20 >=20 > Q. Can Man be conscious on more than one plane at a time? >=20 > A. He cannot be fully conscious on more than one plane at a time; > attention divided between two planes would give a mixed and divided > perception of both. >=20 >=20 > Q. How could a perfected man, being conscious ness itself, be > unconscious on any plane? >=20 > A. There is some confusion in this question. "Consciousness itself" > indicates the power, or ability to perceive, regardless of its > application to any particular plane or thing. Being conscious on any > plane means the applying of one's power to perceive, to the objects of > that plane. >=20 >=20 > Q. We speak of the Lunar Pitris as our physical progenitors. Does that > mean that they were devoid of intelligence? >=20 > A. Intelligence is at the root of all forms, but there are many > degrees of intelligence. The Lunar Pitris are that form of physical > embodiment which was evolved on the Moon and used by incarnating=20 egos > on that planet. They represent and are the Physical line of evolution; > as the Secret Doctrine says, they are our physical progenitors; our > bodies are the continuance of that line. >=20 >=20 > Q. The moon is said to be a dead planet, and the statement made that > it affects the earth. How can a dead planet affect the earth or its > organisms? >=20 > A. The Moon is the former habitation of the stream of evolution now > going on this earth. As a congeries of progressive beings, it is > disintegrating; its higher beings and principles are now proceeding on > this planet and constitute it as it now is. Yet the Moon as a decaying > world still exists, as a corpse exists after the departure of the > living person who inhabited it. The corpse decays and the lives which > compose it tend to separate and enter into their respective kingdoms. > In this separation of lives and elements, an effect is produced, some > of which is beneficial to the living organisms and some deleterious. > If we remember that the Moon represents the Kama Rupa, as well as=20 the > physical body of that planet, and apply what we know of the Human > corpses and Kama Rupas to it, we may obtain a better conception of=20 the > effects. >=20 >=20 > Q. What sets limits to the number of Monads that enter the human > kingdom? >=20 > A. Simply the number of monads that have progressed far enough to > enter it. The middle point of this stream of evolution being passed, > and incipient humans having to begin as such on the highest plane of > substance, and human evolution having reached its Fourth stage in this > Round, and also the middle point of the Seven Rounds, monads from=20 the > animal kingdom cannot-in the nature of time and opportunity-reach the > incipient human stage until the Seventh Round. This is no detriment to > them, for their intelligence has not reached that point where they are > sensible of the difference, and their progress towards the human point > of entrance is not barred in the meantime. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D >=20 >=20 > DTB From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 07:46:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 15:46:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 89892 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 15:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 15:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 15:46:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 15:46:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:46:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte is very good at presenting only one side of an issue. . . . Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1401 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte is very good at presenting only one side of an issue -- - usually the "negative" side. Although HPB does write about "inferior" races, one should always try to see the context in which she is writing and compare other statements by her. For example, would Brian/Brigitte ever point out to readers the following extract that HPB wrote in the SD? "The same is shown in Africa; nowhere does a more extraordinary variability of types exist, from black to almost white, from gigantic men to dwarfish races; and this only because of their forced isolation. The Africans have never left their continent for several hundred thousands of years. If to-morrow the continent of Europe were to disappear and other lands to re-emerge instead; and if the African tribes were to separate and scatter on the face of the earth, it is they who, in about a hundred thousand years hence, would form the bulk of the civilized nations. And it is the descendants of those of our highly cultured nations, who might have survived on some one island, without any means of crossing the new seas, that would fall back into a state of relative savagery. Thus the reason given for dividing humanity into superior and inferior races falls to the ground and becomes a fallacy." SD, II, 425. HPB italicizes the words "superior" and "inferior". Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 07:49:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 85872 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:49:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 13222 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. =20 THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT FROM=20 ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY TO=20 HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 FOLLOWERS. HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SO- CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL-CONSUMING=20 SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY HAVE=20 DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR SPECIAL- NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 =20 THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO GIVE=20 THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 SOULS.=20 =20 ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT THOUGHT=20 SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 SOCIETY.=20 =20 THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT=20 THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 =20 IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 =20 =20 Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 lineage=85=20 THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA (ACTIVITY)=20=20 AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK (BLUE) ,=20 GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE KIND=20 OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE TARA,=20 GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON THE=20 TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY ON=20 THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX SYMBOLIC=20 COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE LORD=20 AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH THE=20 ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA, GUNA,=20 LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT THERE=20 IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 =20 IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR VAISHAS=20=20 AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 ARYANISM.=20=20 TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO REMOVE=20 VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT=20 BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES. THEY=20 EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES, OR=20 THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE THE=20 IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH IN=20 INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF SRI=20 KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE TRADITION=20 ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO SUPPORT=20 THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN=20 RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO CONTROL=20 THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO HIS=20 ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES OF=20 CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 =20 SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT ALL.=20=20=20 THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE INTERPRETED=20 AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! =20 THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM, DEVOID=20 OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA=20 ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN=20 THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE=20 HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF=20 THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA=20 VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE THE=20 BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN COLORS.=20=20 HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA) OR=20 SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. ( I=20 WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED=20 BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK=20 MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK /=20 GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA=20 OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called=20 me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can=20 call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne,=20 whatever.=20 The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to the=20 question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a concocted=20 Fraud. Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "..." ? Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER' that=20 THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY=20 REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND UNDISCIPLINED=20 HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND THE=20 MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS THE=20 PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT AND=20 WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN, THEN=20 WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT IN 'THEIR'=20 LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL-WORLD=20 INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO YOU=20 THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORLD=20 WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE, WHO=20 NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS' WERE=20 MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS OF,=20 AND NOTHING MORE. =20=20 =20 --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Nov 8 2002 >=20 > Dear Friends : >=20 > In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's=20 evolution > and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" > ( see S D I 200 diagram ). >=20 >=20 From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 07:58:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 15:58:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 52578 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 15:58:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 15:58:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 15:58:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 15:58:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:58:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCA057A.EC7F74F8@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 661 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.239 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Arab > countries practice chattel slavery, and that the Palestinians in the > West Bank have far more rights than they would have under virtually any > Arab government, that phrasing shows incredible ignorance. That does not make any sense, Bart. Arab governments do not surround their own cities with tanks, blow up their own government buildings, shoot down their own citizens for buying groceries in broad daylight, deny ordinary people water while fillinw swimming pools for squatters from Israel, or proclaim that every Arab needs to be driven out i the name of the "transfer" program. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 08:00:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 16:00:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 7820 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 16:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 16:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 16:00:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 16:00:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:00:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: COMPARE & CONTRAST what Brian/Brigitte has written and quoted with the following Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7292 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell COMPARE & CONTRAST what Brian/Brigitte has written and quoted with the following material. Brian/Brigitte continues to quote this incomplete extract from the Mahatma Letters on his/her website as well as on this forum: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) Some observations are as follows: (1) It is good to know that Brian/Brigitte can actually use quotation marks! In the past on numerous occasions, Brian/Brigitte has copied material from other writers without adding quotation marks to the appropriated material and without acknowledging the person who wrote the material. At least in this instance Mahatma K.H. is given credit .....! (2) But it is somewhat strange to me that B/B does NOT cite the exact source for this quotation. B/B says it can be found on the Internet. At the very least a note could have been added: Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm (3) Now COMPARE AND CONTRAST what was quoted by B/B with the following more complete quote from the above URL: "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub- race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as Popalvul and a few others unknown to Science." Certainly this extract gives a better context than the material that B/B decided to quote. . . . Actually one should carefully read and study more of this letter than what I am even quoting now in order to understand the Mahatma's ideas. (4) Why did Brian/Brigitte delete the sentence just prior to the quoted extract? The deleted portion reads: ". . . the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics. . . . " (5)Is Brian/Brigitte quoting the extract given at the very beginning of this posting to show us that the Mahatma is a racist? ". . . all these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity. . . . " Is this phrase a racist statement? Or what about this statement: ". . . the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub- race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." Does this mean that "white" people constitute the "superior" race and that all other people of the earth are their "inferiors" --- "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity"? If this is B/B's contention then I must say that such a superficial "interpretation" ignores the whole teaching concerning the evolution of all races THROUGH cycles of time, etc. that is found in THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and in other writings of Blavatsky. (6) Brian/Brigitte, tell us what is YOUR UNDERSTANDING of what will happen ACCORDING TO THE MAHATMAS AND BLAVATSKY through time to "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors'? It is said more than once in the above titles that ALL "races" are born, grow to maturity and then decline, degenerate and face death. "The human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old, and die. Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule." The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2, Page 443-444 My understanding is that through the coming cycles of time "the last sub-race of the fifth" will ALSO become "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity". For instance, read the SD, Vol. 2, pp. 444-445. "Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race," pro tem., before becoming a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races. They are, in short, the germs of the Sixth sub-race, and in some few hundred years more, will become most decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics. After this, in about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms -- the first series of those which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race (and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly connected with the confines of our continent and isles -- the Sixth Root-Race will have appeared on the stage of our Round. . . . it [Sixth Root-Race] will silently come into existence; so silently, indeed, that for long millenniums shall its pioneers -- the peculiar children who will grow into peculiar men and women -- be regarded as anomalous lusus naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally. Then, as they increase, and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they will awake to find themselves in a majority. It is the present men who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, degenerate, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying. All these are the remnants of once mighty races, the recollection of whose existence has entirely died out of the remembrance of the modern generations, just as we shall vanish from the memory of the Sixth Race Humanity. The Fifth will overlap the Sixth Race for many hundreds of millenniums, changing with it slower than its new successor, still changing in stature, general physique, and mentality, just as the Fourth overlapped our Aryan race, and the Third had overlapped the Atlanteans." Please Brian/Brigitte . . . RE-READ and study and ponder on the meaning of the following sentence: "It is the PRESENT MEN [including "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors"?] who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, DEGENERATE, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying." caps added. Much more could be said on just this one aspect of the subject. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 08:07:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 16:07:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 35388 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 16:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 16:07:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 16:07:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 16:07:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:06:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 27216 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT FROM=20 ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY TO=20 HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 FOLLOWERS. HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SO- CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL-CONSUMING=20 SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY HAVE=20 DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR SPECIAL- NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO GIVE=20 THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 SOULS.=20 ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT THOUGHT=20 SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 SOCIETY.=20 THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT=20 THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 lineage=85=20 THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA (ACTIVITY)=20 AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK (BLUE) ,=20 GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE KIND=20 OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE TARA,=20 GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON THE=20 TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY ON=20 THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX SYMBOLIC=20 COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE LORD=20 AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH THE=20 ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA, GUNA,=20 LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT THERE=20 IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20 IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR VAISHAS=20 AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 ARYANISM.=20 TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO REMOVE=20 VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT=20 BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES. THEY=20 EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES, OR=20 THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE THE=20 IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20 HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH IN=20 INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF SRI=20 KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE TRADITION=20 ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO SUPPORT=20 THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN=20 RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO CONTROL=20 THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO HIS=20 ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES OF=20 CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT ALL.=20 THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE INTERPRETED=20 AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM, DEVOID=20 OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA=20 ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN=20 THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE=20 HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF=20 THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA=20 VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20 A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE THE=20 BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN COLORS.=20 HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA) OR=20 SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. ( I=20 WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED=20 BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK=20 MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK /=20 GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA=20 OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20 So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called=20 me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can=20 call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne,=20 whatever.=20 The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to the=20 question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a concocted=20 Fraud. Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "the "Mahatma Letters" to Newspaper=20 editor A.P. Sinnet in British India : "The highest race (physical=20 intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white = =3D=0D conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of=20 the fourth Root race, Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets=20 (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and=20 remnants of other sub-races of the fourth and the seventh sub-race of=20 the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity."=20 " ? Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER' that=20 THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY=20 REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND UNDISCIPLINED=20 HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND THE=20 MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS THE=20 PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT AND=20 WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN, THEN=20 WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT IN 'THEIR'=20 LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL-WORLD=20 INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO YOU=20 THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORLD=20 WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE, WHO=20 NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS' WERE=20 MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS OF,=20 AND NOTHING MORE. --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 > IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 > SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 > NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 > ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. >=20=20 > THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT=20 FROM=20 > ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 > SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 > CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 > BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 > LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY=20 TO=20 > HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 > FOLLOWERS. >=20 > HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- > NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 > BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- > APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 >=20 > THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 > KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 > THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 > AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE=20 SO- > CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 >=20 > THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 > AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 > SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 > LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 > MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL- CONSUMING=20 > SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 > AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 > THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY=20 HAVE=20 > DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR=20 SPECIAL- > NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 >=20=20 > THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 > FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 > IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 > PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO=20 GIVE=20 > THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 > SOULS.=20 >=20=20 > ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 > DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT=20 THOUGHT=20 > SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 > OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 > ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 > SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 > SOCIETY.=20 >=20=20 > THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE=20 THAT=20 > THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 > BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 >=20=20 > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 > PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 > lineage=85=20 >=20 > THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA=20 (ACTIVITY)=20=20 > AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 > THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK=20 (BLUE) ,=20 > GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 > (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE=20 KIND=20 > OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 > THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 > TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE=20=20 TARA,=20 > GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 > MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 > LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON=20 THE=20 > TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY=20 ON=20 > THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX=20 SYMBOLIC=20 > COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE=20 LORD=20 > AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH=20 THE=20 > ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA,=20 GUNA,=20 > LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 > LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- > CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT=20 THERE=20 > IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 > CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 >=20=20 > IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 > BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 > KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 > NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 > SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 > A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 > WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR=20 VAISHAS=20=20 > AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 > AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 >=20 > AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 > THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 > ARYANISM.=20=20 > TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO=20 REMOVE=20 > VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 > GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD=20 NOT=20 > BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 > USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 > REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES.=20=20=20 THEY=20 > EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES,=20 OR=20 > THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE=20 THE=20 > IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 > BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 > AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 >=20 > THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 > THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 > FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 > MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 > HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 > OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 > ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 > TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 > ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH=20 IN=20 > INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 > THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF=20 SRI=20 > KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 > CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 > HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 > HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE=20 TRADITION=20 > ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 > CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- > RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- > ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO=20 SUPPORT=20 > THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS=20 ARYAN=20 > RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO=20 CONTROL=20 > THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- > WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 > NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 > DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO=20 HIS=20 > ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 > ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES=20 OF=20 > CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 >=20=20 > SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 > RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 > RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT=20 ALL.=20=20=20 > THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE=20 INTERPRETED=20 > AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 > SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 > RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! >=20=20 > THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 > AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 > REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM,=20 DEVOID=20 > OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 >=20 > . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 > MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 > OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 > WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI=20 KRISHNA=20 > ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 > ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY !=20=20=20 IN=20 > THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 > THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 > AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 > TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 > IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 > ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 > BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN=20 RACE=20 > HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 > DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 > BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 > IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION=20 OF=20 > THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 > ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 > INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED=20 ADVAITA=20 > VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 > SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 > BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 > LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 > DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE=20 THE=20 > BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 > ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN=20 COLORS.=20=20 > HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 > HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 > BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA)=20 OR=20 > SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 > JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. (=20 I=20 > WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 > TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 > SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 > SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 > KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 > GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 > RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE=20 VARIEGATED=20 > BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 > IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 > BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 > MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 > SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE /=20 BLACK=20 > MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 > TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 > WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 > BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE- BLACK /=20 > GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 > WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 > RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 > VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 > EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 > SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 > KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 > REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 > GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE=20 KRISHNA=20 > OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 > THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 > VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 > TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 > So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called=20 > me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you=20 can=20 > call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne,=20 > whatever.=20 >=20 > The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to the=20 > question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a concocted=20 > Fraud. >=20 > Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" >=20 > Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "..." ? >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER'=20 that=20 > THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 > BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY=20 > REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 > APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND UNDISCIPLINED=20 > HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. >=20 > THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND THE=20 > MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 > ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 > OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 > THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS THE=20 > PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT AND=20 > WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 > ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN, THEN=20 > WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 > PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 > THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT=20 IN 'THEIR'=20 > LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL- WORLD=20 > INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO YOU=20 > THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE=20 WORLD=20 > WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 >=20 > SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 > ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE,=20 WHO=20 > NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS'=20 WERE=20 > MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS=20 OF,=20 > AND NOTHING MORE. >=20=20=20 >=20=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > > Nov 8 2002 > >=20 > > Dear Friends : > >=20 > > In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's=20 > evolution > > and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" > > ( see S D I 200 diagram ). > >=20 > > From compiler@wisdomworld.org Fri Nov 08 08:56:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 16:56:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 38247 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 16:56:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 16:56:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 16:56:16 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout05.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.5 (built Sep 23 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H5900J9QOD7GG@mtaout05.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:55:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:55:26 -0500 Subject: A WELL-ROUNDED THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF RACES To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3DCBEC7E.3FBDECF7@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I sincerely do hope that some of the articles and series of articles that are found in this 9th section of the "Additional" articles index page will prove to be a helpful and "well-rounded Theosophical view of races" to all newcomers and fairly new students of Theosophy. This is how the heading to the section reads: WHO ARE WE? WHAT ARE WE? WHERE DID WE COME FROM? WHERE ARE WE GOING? ANCIENT NATIONS, PEOPLES, RACES http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#9 In case you missed it, I want you to know that this posting by Daniel Caldwell, which contains a quote by HPB concerning "superior" and "inferior" races, inspired me to present the above material: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8478 John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 09:25:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 17:25:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 69614 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 17:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 17:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 17:25:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 17:24:59 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:24:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me. . . . " Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 816 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you write amid ALL THE TEXT IN CAPS: "So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called me 'jasmine.' Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne, whatever." Brian, you insist that "Fact is my name is Brian." But we need only contrast what you say with what Bill Meredith wrote on Theos-Talk: "I think most of us know that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul. The truth is that she acknowledged this several months ago on another list." Do you deny the truth of Bill Meredith's statements? OBTW, it is very hard to read your posts when they contain paragraphs of text ALL IN CAPS. And I'm sure you are well aware that K. Paul Johnson frowned on this ALL CAPS practice. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 09:59:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 17:59:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 65063 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 17:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 17:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 17:59:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 17:59:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:59:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte again mentions the Hare Brothers book on the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5759 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte again mentions the Hare Brothers book on the Mahatma Letters. Theosophical students who are interested in reading the book "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?" by the Hare brothers can borrow a copy through interlibrary loan (at least in the USA). Some Theosophical libraries may also have copies. Some libraries having copies are as follows: YALE UNIV LIBR LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FLORIDA STATE UNIV EMORY UNIV, PITTS THEOL LIBR BOSTON PUB LIBR HARVARD UNIV, HARVARD COL UNIV OF MARYLAND, BALTIMORE CNTY UNIV OF MINNESOTA, MINNEAPOLIS SAINT LOUIS PUB LIBR NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR BOWLING GREEN STATE UNIV RHODE ISLAND COL UNIV OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, NATIONAL LIBR OF AUSTRALIA CAMBRIDGE UNIV UNIV OF OXFORD UNIV OF DURBAN, WESTVILLE LIBR Certainly, students of the MLs should read the Hare brothers book BUT they should also consult the various reviews and critiques of this book. I give BELOW a partial list of the articles and pamphlets that should be carefully read and studied in conjunction with the Hare book. I call special attention to the articles written by Dr. H.N. Stokes. Most of these articles can be obtained using interlibrary loan. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------------------------ The Hare Brothers' Controversy (Items are listed in chronological order of publication) Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters? London, England: Williams & Norgate, 1936. 326 pp. Stokes, H.N. "Demolishing the Mahatmas," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), June-July 1936, pp. [1-7] Fortune, Dion. [Book Review of Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?] The Inner Light (London, England), July, 1936, pp. 185-189. Thomas, Margaret A. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?", The Canadian Theosophist, Vol. 17, August 15, 1936, pp. 167-170. Stokes, H.N. "Did H.P. Blavatsky Write These Mahatma Letters?", The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August-September, 1936, pp. [1-4] Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Twins and `A Libel on a Laureate,'" The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August-September, 1936, p. [10]. Cox, Harold R.W. "Who Wrote the March-Hare Attack on the Mahatmas?," The Canadian Theosophist, October 15, 1936, pp. 225-243. Ryan, Charles J. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?" The Theosophical Forum (Point Loma, California), October 1936, pp. 253-263. See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ryanmlhare.htm Stokes, H.N. "The Bogus Mahatmic Americanisms of the Brothers Hare," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), October 1936, pp. [1-7]. Editorial in Occult Review, Oct. 1936. Savage, Helen. "The Hare Attack Repulsed," The Occult Review (London), October 1936, pp. 251-256. Stokes, H.N. "Choice Tidbits from the Hares' Book on The Mahatma Letters," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), November 1936, pp. [1-5]. Cousins, James. H. "The Blavatsky Riddle Again," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), November, 1936, pp. 152-156. [Gardner, Mrs. Adelaide] "The Real Problem of The Mahatma Letters," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), November, 1936, pp. 156-157. Ryan, Charles J. "An Important Correction," [Letter to the Editor], The Canadian Theosophist, December 15, 1936, pp. 326-338. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Brothers' Arsenal of `Duds,'" The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), December 1936, pp. [1-5]. Wood, Ernest. "The Masters' Signatures," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), Vol. 58, December 1936, pp. 259-262. Hudson, Irne Bastow. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?" Answered. Victoria, British Columbia, Canada: The Author, 1936. 47 pp. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Brothers on the Motives of H.P. Blavatsky," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), January 1937, pp. [1-5]. Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. "The Mahatma Letters," [Letter to the Editor], The Occult Review (London, England), January 1937, pp. 52-53, and continued on pp. 55, 57, 59 and 61. Stokes, H.N. "The Hares Use a Boomerang in Rebuttal," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), February, 1937, pp. [1-2.] Stokes, H.N. "The Hares on He-Mahatmas and She-Mahatmas," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March 1937, pp. [1-7] Hare, William Loftus. "William Loftus Hare in Rebuttal," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March, 1937, pp. [7-8]. Stokes, H.N. "Mr. Hare Contradicts Himself about Mahatma Letters," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March, 1937, pp. [8-9]. Hare, William Loftus. Letter to the Editor. The Canadian Theosophist, April, 1937, pp. Smythe, C.T. Reply to Hare, C.T., April, 1937, p. Stokes, H.N. "A Trip to Reviewland---Hare Reviewers on Parade," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), April, 1937, pp. [1-6]. Jinarajadasa, C. "Did H.P. Blavatsky Invent the Mahatmas?", The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), May, 1937, pp. 105-109. Stokes, H.N. "A Trip to Reviewland---II," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), May-June, 1937, pp. [1-4]. Stokes, H.N. "Letter to `The Occult Review' About the Hare Brothers," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), July, 1937, pp. [6-7]. Alberti, Amalia de. "H.P. Blavatsky and the Press," The Modern Mystic (London, England), July 1937, pp. 18-20. Stokes, H.N. "A Handwriting Expert De Luxe," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August, 1937, pp. [4-6]. Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. The Mahatma Letters: Alibi and Post Mortem Defences. Letchworth, England: G.W. Wardman, 1937. 20 pp. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Volcano Erupts Again," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), December, 1937, pp. [5-8]. Hastings, Beatrice. Defence of Madame Blavatsky. Volume 1. Worthing, England: The Hastings Press, 1937. 60 pp From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 10:06:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 18:06:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 2873 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 18:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 18:06:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 18:06:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 18:06:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:06:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Concerning "The Voice of the Silence" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 335 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Some readers may be interested in the following compilation: The Voice of the Silence: Translated by "H.P.B." Selected Extracts Compiled and rearranged by Daniel H. Caldwell With a brief historical introduction. See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/voiceselectedextracts.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 08 10:17:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 18:17:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 27437 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 18:17:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 18:17:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 18:17:13 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ADgu-0003kY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCBFFD9.2260F9D6@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:18:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Arab > > countries practice chattel slavery, and that the Palestinians in the > > West Bank have far more rights than they would have under virtually > any > > Arab government, that phrasing shows incredible ignorance. > > That does not make any sense, Bart. Arab governments do not surround > their own cities with tanks, blow up their own government buildings, > shoot down their own citizens for buying groceries in broad > daylight, deny ordinary people water while fillinw swimming pools > for squatters from Israel, or proclaim that every Arab needs to be > driven out i the name of the "transfer" program. That's true. That wouldn't happen to an insurgent population in an Arab country; they'd just execute every man, woman and child. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 08 11:29:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 19:29:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 29466 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 19:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 19:29:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 19:29:20 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.142.2450956 (3964) for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:29:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <142.2450956.2afd6a85@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:29:09 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 So, since all you have as evidence for all these angry and prejudiced=20 negative diatribes against HPB and Theosophy are your opinions, you now hav= e=20 to SHOUT. Brian, as a professed "historical scholar," you should be ashame= d=20 of yourself. =20 In a message dated 11/08/02 11:45:38 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 > >IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 > >SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 > >NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 > >ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. > >=20 > >THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT FROM=20 > >ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 > >SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 > >CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 > >BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 > >LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY TO=20 > >HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 > >FOLLOWERS. > > > > HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- > >NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 > >BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- > >APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 > > > > THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 > >KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 > >THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 > >AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SO- > >CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 > > > > THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 > >AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 > >SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 > >LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 > >MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL-CONSUMING=20 > >SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 > >AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 > >THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY HAVE=20 > >DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR SPECIAL- > >NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 > >=20 > >THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 > >FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 > >IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 > >PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO GIVE=20 > >THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 > >SOULS.=20 > >=20 > >ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 > >DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT THOUGHT=20 > >SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 > >OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 > >ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 > >SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 > >SOCIETY.=20 > >=20 > >THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT=20 > >THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 > >BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 > >=20 > >IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 > >PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 > >lineage=E2=80=A6=20 > > > >THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA (ACTIVITY)=20=20 > >AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 > >THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK (BLUE) ,=20 > >GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 > >(LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE KIND=20 > >OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 > >THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 > >TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE TARA,=20 > >GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 > >MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 > >LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON THE=20 > >TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY ON=20 > >THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX SYMBOLIC=20 > >COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE LORD=20 > >AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH THE=20 > >ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA, GUNA,=20 > >LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 > >LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- > >CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT THERE=20 > >IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 > >CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 > >=20 > >IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 > >BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 > >KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 > >NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 > >SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 > >A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 > >WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR VAISHAS=20=20 > >AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 > >AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 > > > > AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 > >THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 > >ARYANISM.=20=20 > >TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO REMOVE=20 > >VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 > >GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT=20 > >BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 > >USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 > >REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES. THEY=20 > >EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES, OR=20 > >THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE THE=20 > >IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 > >BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 > >AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 > > > >THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 > >THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 > >FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 > >MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 > >HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 > >OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 > >ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 > >TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 > >ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH IN=20 > >INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 > >THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF SRI=20 > >KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 > >CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 > >HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 > >HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE TRADITION=20 > >ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 > >CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- > >RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- > >ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO SUPPORT=20 > >THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN=20 > >RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO CONTROL=20 > >THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- > >WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 > >NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 > >DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO HIS=20 > >ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 > >ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES OF=20 > >CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 > >=20 > >SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 > >RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 > >RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT ALL.=20=20=20 > >THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE INTERPRETED=20 > >AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 > >SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 > >RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! > >=20 > >THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 > >AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 > >REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM, DEVOID=20 > >OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 > > > >. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 > >MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 > >OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 > >WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA=20 > >ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 > >ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN=20 > >THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 > >THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 > >AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 > >TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 > >IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 > >ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 > >BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE=20 > >HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 > >DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 > >BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 > >IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF=20 > >THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 > >ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 > >INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA=20 > >VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 > >SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 > >BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 > > > > > > > > > > A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 > >LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 > >DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE THE=20 > >BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 > >ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN COLORS.=20=20 > >HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 > >HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 > >BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA) OR=20 > >SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 > >JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. ( I=20 > >WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 > >TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 > >SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 > >SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 > >KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 > >GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 > >RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED=20 > >BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 > >IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 > >BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 > >MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 > >SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK=20 > >MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 > >TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 > >WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 > >BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK /=20 > >GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 > >WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 > >RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 > >VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 > >EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 > >SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 > >KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 > >REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 > >GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA=20 > >OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 > >THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 > >VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 > >TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 > > So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he called=20 > >me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can > > >call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne,=20 > >whatever.=20 > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 12:27:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 20:27:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 49269 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 20:27:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 20:27:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 20:27:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 20:27:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:27:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCBFFD9.2260F9D6@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 874 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.233.214 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > That's true. That wouldn't happen to an insurgent population in an Arab > country; they'd just execute every man, woman and child. You forgot dogs. One of their religious superstitions is that Muslims have to hate dogs. But even so, that is not what you said. You said the Sharonistas were treating the Palestinians far better than any Arab government treats their citizens. That statement is clearly false. No Arab state is engaging in a genocide or erhnic cleaning operation, and in fact that last large scale genocide was carried out by Hitler. You would be accurate if you said the coveted West Bank and the coveted Gaza territory are not "slave territories" as Dennis says. It is the policy of the Sharonistas to import Jews from abroad for economic exploitation and to kill or exile Arabs. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 13:40:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 21:40:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 96459 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 21:40:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 21:40:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 21:40:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 21:40:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:40:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2983 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE=20 THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE=20 PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO=20 SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE=20 HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND=20 AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS=20 BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT=20 REMAINS ALSO THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT=20 HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING.=20=20 THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE=20 AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS=20 BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE=20 BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF=20 REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR=20 TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE=20 SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT=20 EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE=20 INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN=20 ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM=20 ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE=20 SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.=20=20=20 BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.=20 =20 THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES=20 DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT=20 BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE.=20=20 THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT=20 ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more=20 difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt=20 with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma=20 letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of=20 the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO=20 THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle= =3D=0D b9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote:=85 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 08 15:26:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Nov 2002 23:26:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 39018 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2002 23:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2002 23:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2002 23:26:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2002 23:26:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:26:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Using ALL CAPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3446 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Brian/Brigitte, If you want many people to continue reading your messages, I would=20 suggest that you do NOT use all caps. Using all caps makes it=20 difficult for most people to read the text. What would Paul Johnson say if he knew what you were doing! :) Daniel --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE=20 > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE=20 > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO=20 > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE=20 > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND=20 > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS=20 > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT=20 > REMAINS ALSO > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT=20 > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING.=20=20 > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE=20 > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS=20 > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE=20 > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF=20 > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR=20 > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE=20 > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT=20 > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE=20 > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN=20 > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM=20 > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE=20 > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.=20=20=20 > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.=20 >=20=20 > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES=20 > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. >=20 >=20 > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. >=20 > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT=20 > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE.=20=20 > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT=20 > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more=20 > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been=20 dealt=20 > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma=20 > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not=20 those of=20 > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" >=20 > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO=20 > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > = =20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=3D > b9 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote:=85 From jpcondick@btinternet.com Fri Nov 08 16:32:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 00:32:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 51839 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 00:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 00:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO einsteinium) (194.73.73.147) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 00:32:30 -0000 Received: from host213-122-240-55.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.240.55] helo=oemcomputer) by einsteinium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18AJY4-0003j3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:32:29 +0000 Message-ID: <004d01c28787$344a1440$37f07ad5@oemcomputer> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> <001701c2872e$b56a8ea0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice Of The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 00:30:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marina Sisson" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > Dear Jeremy, > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > many thanks, > > Marina Not immediatly Marina, If I find it again I will get back to you ok. Jeremy From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri Nov 08 16:51:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 83570 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:15 -0000 Received: from 1cust191.tnt16.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.11.191] helo=u7k5a4) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AJqE-0004Xl-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:51:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000301c2878a$9d349220$bf0be043@u7k5a4> To: References: <84.1480c26.2af592c0@aol.com> <000601c285f7$78544480$cf09e043@u7k5a4> <3DCA057A.EC7F74F8@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:47:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 It is satisfying to know that I have almost as high a regard for you as you have for me. Hang in there! Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- > Dennis Kier wrote: > > I suspect that if Israel would begin practicing Love and justice > > toward the Slave Territories, the karmic resentment that they have > > generated for over 50 years, would take hundreds of years to be > > balanced. > > I notice you use the term "slave territories". Considering that Arab > countries practice chattel slavery, and that the Palestinians in the > West Bank have far more rights than they would have under virtually any > Arab government, that phrasing shows incredible ignorance. > > Bart Lidofsky From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri Nov 08 16:51:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 66915 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:19 -0000 Received: from 1cust191.tnt16.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.11.191] helo=u7k5a4) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AJqH-0004Xl-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:51:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c2878a$9f2c1c60$bf0be043@u7k5a4> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:22:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Morten: Curiously enough, I had some correspondence with John Algeo a year or so ago asking about this subject. He replied and said that their was a 35mm (color) slide set of the letters, and said that it should not be too much trouble to put them in a museum section on his web site at www.theosophical.org, but I have gone back there from time to time, and it has never appeared. But the relevant information is that there is a color slide set in existance of the letters, and I seem to have the impression is that it was a commercial venture of some nature, so there should be more than one set of the slides somewhere in the world. Does anyone else know any more details of this? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > A few stray comments ... > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > questions and points > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the Mahatma > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on PDF-file or > >another file-format ?* > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if they > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would have > the final say. > From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri Nov 08 16:51:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 24318 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 00:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 00:51:13 -0000 Received: from 1cust191.tnt16.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.11.191] helo=u7k5a4) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AJqB-0004Xl-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:51:12 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c2878a$9bdd3f80$bf0be043@u7k5a4> To: References: <001101c28697$4cec1840$f2bba7a7@scribe> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:43:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Eldon: I think the problem has been cleared up. I am still getting the messages. Today I got the complimentary message from Bart, so I think things are going along OK. I think that the action you took right away, cleared it up before it got started. Thank you. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: subscription --- > Dennis: > > Has this problem cleared up, or do I still need to look into it? > > -- Eldon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:25 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: subscription --- > > I recently got an email from YAHOO telling me that I had been somehow > "unsubscribed" from this group. They rejected the post that I will try > to copy below. > > This whole thing wasn't my idea, and don't know how someone could go > in to YAHOO and get someone else unsubscribed, or even if that is > possible. > > They told me that my box is full, but since I only get 15 to 20 emails > a day now, and in the past I have recieved 80 or more without any > trouble, I am suspicious that I am not getting the truth about this > from them. > > Here is the email that they rejected once (so far) > > Dennis > ********* > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma > > > > Dennis Kier wrote: > > > > > > I am glad that you noticed. I noticed that you only included the > > > survival of Israel in your question. Why didn't you also include > the > > > survival of the other side? > > > > Because the other side is not necessarily giving Israel that option. > > It doesn't look like Israel is giving the other side the option of > surviving either. > > I > > am making the assumption that Israel will not perform any action > that > > will ensure its own destruction, although many people want Israel to > do > > just that. > > >But note I am also asking what Israel SHOULD do. If you can > > come up with a set of actions Israel can perform that would ensure > the > > survival of both sides, so much the better. > > I don't have a clue. But then, that problem has been wrestled with for > many years, so I am not alone in that area. > I suppose anyone who comes up with a good solution of what Israel > SHOULD do would be in line for the Nobel Prize. > > Karmically, it is said that only Good can overcome Evil, and only Love > can overcome Hate. > > Who is to say which is the Good side? It would depend on your point of > view. > > But it is demonstrated that the Hate and violence that Israel has > commited aginst the Palestinians has not worked, only involking more > violence against it. > > I suspect that if Israel would begin practicing Love and justice > toward the Slave Territories, the karmic resentment that they have > generated for over 50 years, would take hundreds of years to be > balanced. > > But I am an American, and I suspect that you may be also, so it isn't > Our problem, except on an intellectual level. I think it will be > interesting to see how it works out eventually. > > I hope that I will be as surprised at what happens, as I was when the > Soviet Union collapsed. > > Dennis > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From jpcondick@btinternet.com Fri Nov 08 17:40:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 01:40:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 78999 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 01:40:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 01:40:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rhenium) (194.73.73.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 01:40:58 -0000 Received: from host213-122-219-240.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.219.240] helo=oemcomputer) by rhenium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18AKcL-00055O-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 01:40:57 +0000 Message-ID: <007901c28790$c54d19c0$f0db7ad5@oemcomputer> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> <001701c2872e$b56a8ea0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:38:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marina Sisson" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > Dear Jeremy, > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > many thanks, > > Marina. Marina, You, as I, may be interested in the following compliation. Comments on "The Voice of the Silence" by Clara Codd Extract: C.W. Leadbeater told us that quite a number of these precepts were written by the great teacher Aryasanga. They were written in a sort of cryptic language, picture language, that you could read in many different tongues. I wonder if some of them are written in what is called the Senzar, because H.P.B. Says she studied the Senzar when she was in Tibet, and the Senzar is the sacred root of Sanskrit, and it was brought over from Venus by the Great Adepts, six and a half million years ago. I suppose it is a language hardly anyone knows except in certain esoteric schools, but Sanskrit is a derivative from the Senzar, and I expect that is why it is called the Devanagari, God language, Deva language. It is the sacred language in the East, like Latin used to be in the West. She says at the end of the preface, I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of the language and imagery which characterizes the original. C.W. Leadbeater told us that she was helped in doing this by the Master Hilarion, the one who wrote Light on the Path. He helped H.P.B. and it is the most beautiful language. When you remember that H.P.B. didn't know English very well, yet she managed to put it in the most splendid words. The Master must have helped her; she could not have done it by herself. http://www.theosophical.ca/voiceSilenceComments.htm Regards Jeremy From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 18:49:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 02:49:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 53049 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 02:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 02:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 02:49:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 02:49:40 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 02:49:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 15625 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL THAT=20 > IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 > SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH UTTER=20 > NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 > ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. >=20=20 *************** Brian you know what I would say to that---Rubbish!!! The Theosophical members were the ones being hidden. They are/were=20 the masters. Not ascended anything. Humans having a spiritual=20 experience as the saying goes. People WANT to believe that divinity=20 could NOT come in a form other than human, thus the creation of gods=20 who were not human, but ethereal, otherness, other than human. IT was=20 the MOTHER of necessity. It was the silliness of humanity that=20 created the need and urge to create the illusion.=20 When Jesus said "hey I am a man" they changed him into a god. When=20 the White Brotherhood (through HPB) said "hey we are men" they were=20 changed into gods. Is that a crime I ask? If the owner of a store=20 changes the name of his store, and what he decides to sell, are=20 people going to ask him why? Yes, they might, but he does not need=20 their permission. They will either go there or not. I know what you are going to say "HPB believed her own stories, made=20 others believe her version of the truth, therefore she was a=20 charlatan." She was in reality A group. The Group was the gods, and=20 those she designated as The White Brotherhood were no more, no less=20 evolved than those who were part of the original group. That is the=20 simple truth. The names were changed to protect the innocent.=20 Someday soon the whole truth will be revealed. It is already known. Netemara PS: As for the British Museum all you have to do is ask them. They=20 will give permission easily enough. However, you might have to pay=20 per letter that is copied, or per page and that could be expensive. I=20 know someone who did something similar. They are pretty reasonable. Perhaps they will do, have done what the Vatican has done: make=20 everything available online. ************** > THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT FROM=20 > ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 > SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 > CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM HAS=20 > BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 > LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE CREDIBILITY TO=20 > HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 > FOLLOWERS. >=20 > HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH SPECIAL- > NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 > BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- > APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 >=20 > THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 > KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED WITH=20 > THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES THEM=20 > AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SO- > CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 >=20 > THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL-NESS=20 > AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY BECOME=20 > SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 > LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 > MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL-CONSUMING=20 > SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 > AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 > THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY HAVE=20 > DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR SPECIAL- > NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 >=20=20 > THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE THEM=20 > FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS IT=20 > IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO THEIR=20 > PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO GIVE=20 > THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 > SOULS.=20 >=20=20 > ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 > DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT THOUGHT=20 > SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 > OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 > ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 > SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 > SOCIETY.=20 >=20=20 > THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT=20 > THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 > BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 >=20=20 > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 > PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 > lineage=85=20 >=20 > THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA (ACTIVITY)=20=20 > AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED WITH=20 > THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK (BLUE) ,=20 > GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 > (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE KIND=20 > OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA (AND=20 > THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 > TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE TARA,=20 > GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN RED,=20 > MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR BLUE,=20 > LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON THE=20 > TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY ON=20 > THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX SYMBOLIC=20 > COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE LORD=20 > AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH THE=20 > ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA, GUNA,=20 > LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 > LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- > CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT THERE=20 > IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 > CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 >=20=20 > IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY READILY=20 > BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 > KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 > NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 > SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE, NOT=20 > A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE VARNAS,=20 > WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR VAISHAS=20=20 > AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 > AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 >=20 > AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 > THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 > ARYANISM.=20=20 > TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO REMOVE=20 > VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 > GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT=20 > BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD. SO=20 > USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 > REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES. THEY=20 > EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE HEROES, OR=20 > THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE THE=20 > IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND THERAVADIN=20 > BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 > AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 >=20 > THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 > THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 > FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD / JESUS=20 > MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 > HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS ONE=20 > OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH NO=20 > ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 > TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH PRACTICALLY=20 > ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE BRITISH IN=20 > INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO TEACH=20 > THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF SRI=20 > KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 > CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA AND=20 > HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 > HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE TRADITION=20 > ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 > CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN STATE- > RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- > ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO SUPPORT=20 > THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN=20 > RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO CONTROL=20 > THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- > WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 > NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN OF=20 > DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO HIS=20 > ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 > ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE PURPOSES OF=20 > CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 >=20=20 > SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 > RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 > RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT ALL.=20=20=20 > THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE INTERPRETED=20 > AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY IT=20 > SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 > RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! >=20=20 > THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 > AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 > REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM, DEVOID=20 > OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 >=20 > . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 > MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF=20 > OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM. NO=20 > WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA=20 > ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS=20 > ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN=20 > THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF=20 > THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 > AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 > TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 > IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 > ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS=20 > BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE=20 > HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A=20 > DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 > BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 > IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF=20 > THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE=20 > ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 > INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA=20 > VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 > SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER=20 > BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 > LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 > DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE THE=20 > BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE ONLY=20 > ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN COLORS.=20=20 > HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 > HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS WAS=20 > BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA BALA) OR=20 > SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF COLORS=20 > JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE. ( I=20 > WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 > TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 > SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 > SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 > KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 > GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 > RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED=20 > BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 > IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE=20 > BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 > MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 > SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK=20 > MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 > TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 > WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 > BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK /=20 > GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA=20 > WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 > RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 > VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 > EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 > SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT=20 > KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS WITH=20 > REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT THE=20 > GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA=20 > OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND=20 > THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS=20 > VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 > TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 > So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he=20 called=20 > me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you=20 can=20 > call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or=20 Joanne,=20 > whatever.=20 >=20 > The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to=20 the=20 > question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a concocted=20 > Fraud. >=20 > Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" >=20 > Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "..." ? >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER'=20 that=20 > THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 > BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY=20 > REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 > APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND UNDISCIPLINED=20 > HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. >=20 > THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND THE=20 > MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 > ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 > OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 > THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS THE=20 > PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT AND=20 > WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 > ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN, THEN=20 > WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 > PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 > THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT IN 'THEIR'=20 > LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL-WORLD=20 > INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO YOU=20 > THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORLD=20 > WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 >=20 > SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 > ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE, WHO=20 > NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS' WERE=20 > MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS OF,=20 > AND NOTHING MORE. >=20=20=20 >=20=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > > Nov 8 2002 > >=20 > > Dear Friends : > >=20 > > In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's=20 > evolution > > and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" > > ( see S D I 200 diagram ). > >=20 > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 19:07:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 03:07:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 21402 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 03:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 03:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 03:07:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 03:07:32 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:07:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003f01c285bc$ad325ce0$79d30b3f@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6606 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Well said wry1111. Brian was on my group for a while and I addressed this issue but not directly. The message and the books and the outer trappings of mysterious masters of a cult one could call: "made in India" suitable for export to the West, is NOT what is important. What is important is that this movement made a whole in the glamorized view of human history and she (TS) did it in a way that it has never been done before. That is what makes people mad I suspect. She was NOT supposed to be successful--don't you see? It was not supposed to work. It was not supposed to happen. But it was destined to work. It was destined to change the world. And dear Brian you can't change that with all the capitalized essays in the world!!! I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian woman with the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and no money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not supposed to happen if you think about it. I think it's funny like wry said. I try to roll back the covers, the burkas. But many don't think its funny. Netemara ************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person in many > ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you could use > a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of things. > They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of course, > is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will > perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how you want to > live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. > > As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize situations > and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave situation, > both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would you not > agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to address this > problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You probably > do, too. > > Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you are able > to help them find something better to replace it with. You think you have > something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it probably > is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You do not > say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your belief and > then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken before he > eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT MAKES NO > SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. > > I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I think it is > funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? The point I > personally would be interested in making is that it is not necessary to > look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us understands, but > we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment before I > bump into a telephone pole. > > Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the fastest > growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to provide > evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in > attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to > believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be angry at > a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being sarcastic > when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when applied to > adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you and I > understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply this in > my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to projects that > have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we can help > many people. Sincerely, Wry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM > Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of > Blavatsky's "Masters." > > > > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. To > > me this is ridiculous. > > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, as Daniel > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including that there > > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any of the > > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first didn`t feel > > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place of > > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly be too > > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a while > > they obeyed him. > > > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own fictitiousness in > > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the Masters > > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding accusations of > > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH to Sinnet, > > Letter No. 24B) > > > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, Hume > > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand of > > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding as usual. > > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the piano > > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, but a very > > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes later, > > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having opened the > > letter and read it. > > > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 08 19:31:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 03:31:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 79315 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 03:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 03:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 03:31:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AMLI-0000gd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:31:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCC81BF.72862195@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:32:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > But even so, that is not what you said. You said the Sharonistas > were treating the Palestinians far better than any Arab government > treats their citizens. I believe I said that they had more rights than they would if they lived in an Arab country. Another person had described it as a "slave state". > That statement is clearly false. No Arab > state is engaging in a genocide or erhnic cleaning operation, and in > fact that last large scale genocide was carried out by Hitler. How about Iraq? How about Syria's incursion into Lebanon? How about the "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans? Bart Lidofsky > > You would be accurate if you said the coveted West Bank and the > coveted Gaza territory are not "slave territories" as Dennis says. > It is the policy of the Sharonistas to import Jews from abroad for > economic exploitation and to kill or exile Arabs. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 19:39:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 03:39:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 12434 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 03:39:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 03:39:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 03:39:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 03:39:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:39:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: subscription --- Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCC81BF.72862195@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 807 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.236.50 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > How about Iraq? How about Syria's incursion into Lebanon? How about the > "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans? Am I understanding you correctly? Surely you are not saying that the atrocities in Kosovo justify the transfer program in Israel. Serbia is anyway not an Arab country, and my opinion is that Sharon belongs in the Hague in a cell right next to Milosevic. My understanding is someone in the Iraqi military gassed Kurds fourteen years ago, but that there has been no genocide since. The last large sale genocide wa in fact Hitler before the current large scale genocide in the West Bank. I wish I could agree with you that what is going on in Palestine is a great thing that should be applauded, but unfortunately I cannot. From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 08 19:54:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 03:54:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 9883 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 03:54:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 03:54:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 03:54:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AMhj-0000ar-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:54:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCC872D.CEF6804C@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:55:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: subscription --- References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > How about Iraq? How about Syria's incursion into Lebanon? How about > the > > "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans? > > Am I understanding you correctly? Surely you are not saying that the > atrocities in Kosovo justify the transfer program in Israel. You will be glad to know that you are NOT understanding me correctly. I am saying that if, in an Arab country, a group was doing what the Palestinians were doing in Israel, they would be treated far more harshly. That does not mean that two wrongs make a right, or a greater wrong makes a lesser wrong a right. This whole thing started because someone called the West Bank a "slave state" of Israel, which I think even you would agree is not at all accurate. > Serbia > is anyway not an Arab country, and my opinion is that Sharon belongs > in the Hague in a cell right next to Milosevic. "Ethnic Cleansing" was started by Bosnia. Serbia was just better at it. > My understanding is someone in the Iraqi military gassed Kurds > fourteen years ago, but that there has been no genocide since. The > last large sale genocide wa in fact Hitler before the current large > scale genocide in the West Bank. Can you describe the difference between genocide and war? Because if Israel wished to commit genocide against the West Bank, they would not have banned the Koch party for advocating just that, and there wouldn't be any Palestinians left. Bart Lidofsky From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Fri Nov 08 20:06:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 68834 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:06:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 7630 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.148 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami=20 Subject: MY POST TO THEOS-TALK EGROUP GREETINGS DEAR FELLOW RESPECTERS OF TRUTH AND VIRTUE,=20 PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESPECTFUL OBEISANCES. MY NAME IS BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AND I AM A SANNYASI AND SHIKSHA=20 (INSTRUCTING) MASTER IN THE ANCIENT AND VENERABLE BRAHMA-MADHVA- GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. I HAVE ALSO HAD EXTENSIVE EXPERIANCE=20 WITH SHAIVA, SHAKTI, BUDDHIST AND OTHER TRADITIONS. I HAVE BEEN=20 INVOLVED IN COMPARATIVE RELIGION STUDIES AND INTERFAITH MINISTRIES=20 FOR 35 YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN DOING POST-GRADUATE LEVEL QUALITY=20 INTERDISCIPLINARY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF RELIGION FOR AT LEAST 25=20 OF THOSE YEARS. I SUCCESSFULLY DELIVERED THE ORAL PRESENTATION OF MY=20 TWO YEAR MASTER'S DEGREE THESIS, BUT NEVER PUBLISHED MY THESIS OR=20 RECEIVED MY DEGREE, BECAUSE I HAD TO GO INTO A NURSING HOME ON A=20 RESPIRATOR, DUE TO POST-POLIO SYNDROME BREATHING MUSCLE PARALYSIS,=20 BEFORE I COULD FINISH MY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT.=20=20 AT PRESENT I AM BED-RIDDEN MOST OF THE TIME. MY COMPUTER IS=20 INSTALLED OVER MY BED, AND I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, BECAUSE THESE ARE WHAT=20 ARE EASIEST FOR ME TO SEE WHEN I AM UNABLE TO SIT UP. MANY COMPUTER=20 USERS HAVE DIFFICULTY SEEING THEIR MONITORS. WHEN PERSONS SUCH AS=20 MYSELF USE ALL CAPS, PLEASE DON'T ALSWAYS ASSUME THAT IT IS BECAUSE=20 WE ARE RUDE AND SHOUTING. IT IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT A REQUIRED=20 AUSTERITY.=20=20 WITH MY PERMISSION, BRIAN HAS EXCERPTED AND POSTED SOME OF MY PRIVATE=20 LETTERS TO THIS FORUM. BRIAN HAS NOT BEEN SHOUTING AT ANYONE. I HAVE=20 NOT BEEN POSTING MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN COMBATING=20 RACIST ARYANISTS GLOBALLY, AND AS A RESULT HAVE RECEIVED NUMEROUS=20 DEATH THREATS AND ACTUAL ATTACKS FROM THEM. SO I NO LONGER LIKE TO=20 EXPOSE MYSELF TO ARYANIST FANATICISM OF ANY KIND, ANY MORE THAN=20 NECCESSARY. THUS, BRIAN WAS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY AS A COURTESY FOR=20 ME.=20 EVEN THOUGH I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE VIOLENT RACISTS, OF THE KIND=20 THAT I HAVE BEEN COMBATING, IT SEEMS PROBABLE TO ME THAT YOU DON'T=20 REALIZE HOW ARYOSOPHISM IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE THOUGHT SYSTEMS OF THE=20 RACIST GROUPS I HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IN MY WORK. I HAVE EXPERIANCED=20 THE WORST OF THE OUT-COMES OF ARYOSOPHISM, BECAUSE IN MY WORK I HAVE=20 COMBATED THE WORST KIND OF RACIST FANATICS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. BECAUSE=20 OF THIS, I GENERALLY TO NOT LIKE TO READ T SOCIETY ATTEMPTS TO DENY=20 THE INFLUENCE OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM ON GLOBAL HISTORY. WHETHER=20 THEY ARE HINDU, JAPANESE, EUROPEAN, SRI LANKAN, AMERICAN OR OTHER=20 ARYANIST RACISTS, THEY ARE TIED TOGETHER BY THE SAME GENERAL BELIEF- SYSTEMS, WITH ELEMENTS OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM IN THEM.=20 MY OPINION IS THAT HPB HAD A BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE TOWARDS=20 BLACKS, AND WAS ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-CATHOLIC. SHE DID NOT=20 ANTICIPATE OR INTEND THAT HER SCIENTISTIC ROOT-RACES IDEAS WOULD END-=20 UP FORMING THE BEDROCK OF SOME VERY MALEVOLENT THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. NOT=20 WANTING TO GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH THEOSOPHISTS ABOUT THE FACT OF=20 HER RACIST INFLUENCE, I HAVE NOT POSTED TO ANY THEOSOPHICAL SITES.=20=20 MY PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE WITH BRIAN (AND IT IS PROPER TO ADDRESS A=20 PERSON AS THEY WISH), HAS NOT BEEN MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND ANY=20 INDIVIDUAL THEOSOPHISTS, BUT RATHER TO EXPRESS MY THINKING ON THE=20 MAJOR ISSUES THEMSELVES.=20 SINCE I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS FORUM, AND DON'T WANT BRIAN TO=20 BE ERRONEOUSLY ACCUSED OF SHOUTING IN CAPS AT YOU ALL, I AM=20 INTRODUCING MYSELF. I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS AND FRIENDS WRITING=20 TO ME THAT I OWE LETTERS TO, AND MANY OTHER PRESSING DUTIES TO ATTEND=20 TO, SO I CANNOT, WITH MY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS, GET INTO ANY HEATED=20 EXCHANGES ON THIS FORUM. STILL,I WILL TRY TO WRITE SOMETHING=20 REGARDING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS FOR POSTING HERE=20 SOON.=20=20 BEST WISHES, HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA OF VAISHNAVISM INTERFAITH COMMITTEE ORGANIZER, WORLD VAISHNAVA ORGANIZATION,=20 VRINDAVANA INDIA.=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Dear Brian/Brigitte, >=20 > If you want many people to continue reading your messages, I would=20 > suggest that you do NOT use all caps. Using all caps makes it=20 > difficult for most people to read the text. >=20 > What would Paul Johnson say if he knew what you were doing! :) >=20 > Daniel >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" =20 wrote: > > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE=20 > > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE=20 > > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO=20 > > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE=20 > > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND=20 > > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS=20 > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT=20 > > REMAINS ALSO > > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT=20 > > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING.=20=20 > > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE=20 > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS=20 > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE=20 > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF=20 > > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR=20 > > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE=20 > > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT=20 > > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE=20 > > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN=20 > > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM=20 > > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE=20 > > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.=20=20=20 > > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.=20 > >=20=20 > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES=20 > > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. > >=20 > >=20 > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. > >=20 > > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT=20 > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE.=20=20 > > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT=20 > > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more=20 > > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not=20 been=20 > dealt=20 > > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma=20 > > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not=20 > those of=20 > > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" > >=20 > > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO=20 > > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > > = =20 > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=3D > > b9 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > wrote:=85 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 20:19:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 24823 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:19:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8227 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Netemara: I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian woman with the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and no money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not supposed to happen if you think about it. I don't see what you wrote provided any evidence (other then polemics) that the "Mahatma Letters" contain anything else (more or new) then the information available to Blavatsky and friends, their normal human (not sages in the Himalalaya, there is NO evidence Blavatsky ever was in Tibet) studies in Rosicrucianism, Masonry, spiritism, and a wide readiing in religion, history, Philosophy and the science of their day ? I went over this already on this list, but never received an answer. See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/invoccultism.html And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/esosecrets.html And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr2.html Look forward to your detailed response to the above ,and pls include referrences. Brian http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > Well said wry1111. > > Brian was on my group for a while and I addressed this issue but not > directly. The message and the books and the outer trappings of > mysterious masters of a cult one could call: "made in India" suitable > for export to the West, is NOT what is important. What is important > is that this movement made a whole in the glamorized view of human > history and she (TS) did it in a way that it has never been done > before. That is what makes people mad I suspect. She was NOT supposed > to be successful--don't you see? It was not supposed to work. It was > not supposed to happen. But it was destined to work. It was destined > to change the world. And dear Brian you can't change that with all > the capitalized essays in the world!!! > > I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian woman with > the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and no > money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not > supposed to happen if you think about it. > > I think it's funny like wry said. I try to roll back the covers, the > burkas. But many don't think its funny. > > Netemara > > ************** > > -- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > > Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person > in many > > ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you > could use > > a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of > things. > > They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of > course, > > is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will > > perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how > you want to > > live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. > > > > As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize > situations > > and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave > situation, > > both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would > you not > > agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to > address this > > problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You > probably > > do, too. > > > > Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you > are able > > to help them find something better to replace it with. You think > you have > > something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it > probably > > is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You > do not > > say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your > belief and > > then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken > before he > > eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT > MAKES NO > > SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. > > > > I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I > think it is > > funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? The > point I > > personally would be interested in making is that it is not > necessary to > > look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us > understands, but > > we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment > before I > > bump into a telephone pole. > > > > Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the > fastest > > growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to > provide > > evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in > > attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to > > believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be > angry at > > a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being > sarcastic > > when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when > applied to > > adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you > and I > > understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply > this in > > my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to > projects that > > have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we > can help > > many people. Sincerely, Wry > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM > > Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and > the "staging" of > > Blavatsky's "Masters." > > > > > > > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the ground. > To > > > me this is ridiculous. > > > > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then people > > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, > as Daniel > > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > > > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including > that there > > > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any > of the > > > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > > > > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first > didn`t feel > > > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place > of > > > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > > > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly > be too > > > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a while > > > they obeyed him. > > > > > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own > fictitiousness in > > > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > > > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the > Masters > > > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > > > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding > accusations of > > > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH > to Sinnet, > > > Letter No. 24B) > > > > > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, > Hume > > > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > > > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand of > > > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding > as usual. > > > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the > piano > > > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, > but a very > > > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes > later, > > > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having opened the > > > letter and read it. > > > > > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 08 20:46:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 04:46:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 66601 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 04:46:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 04:46:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 04:46:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 04:46:16 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:46:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 16953 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Netemara: As for the British Museum all you have to do is ask them.=20 They will give permission easily enough. However, you might have to=20 pay per letter that is copied, or per page and that could be expensive. Brian:All of the letters in British Museum can be read for free on-line,=20 transcribed and well readable, they even have their own internal search=20 engine see:=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/psearch.htm=20 = =3D=0D Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" =20 wrote: > > THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE LETTERS THEMSELVES IS ALL=20 THAT=20 > > IS NEEDED TO REFUTE THEIR CLAIM TO A HIGHER SOURCE. I=20 > > SUPPOSE THAT AS LONG AS PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH=20 UTTER=20 > > NONSENSE, THERE IS NOTHING THAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT=20 > > ENTHRALLED BY IT CAN DO TO DISILLUSION THEM. > >=20=20 > *************** >=20 > Brian you know what I would say to that---Rubbish!!! >=20 > The Theosophical members were the ones being hidden. They=20 are/were=20 > the masters. Not ascended anything. Humans having a spiritual=20 > experience as the saying goes. People WANT to believe that divinity=20 > could NOT come in a form other than human, thus the creation of=20 gods=20 > who were not human, but ethereal, otherness, other than human. IT=20 was=20 > the MOTHER of necessity. It was the silliness of humanity that=20 > created the need and urge to create the illusion.=20 >=20 > When Jesus said "hey I am a man" they changed him into a god.=20 When=20 > the White Brotherhood (through HPB) said "hey we are men" they=20 were=20 > changed into gods. Is that a crime I ask? If the owner of a store=20 > changes the name of his store, and what he decides to sell, are=20 > people going to ask him why? Yes, they might, but he does not need=20 > their permission. They will either go there or not. >=20 > I know what you are going to say "HPB believed her own stories,=20 made=20 > others believe her version of the truth, therefore she was a=20 > charlatan." She was in reality A group. The Group was the gods, and=20 > those she designated as The White Brotherhood were no more, no=20 less=20 > evolved than those who were part of the original group. That is the=20 > simple truth. The names were changed to protect the innocent.=20 >=20 > Someday soon the whole truth will be revealed. It is already known. >=20 > Netemara >=20 > PS: As for the British Museum all you have to do is ask them. They=20 > will give permission easily enough. However, you might have to pay=20 > per letter that is copied, or per page and that could be expensive. I=20 > know someone who did something similar. They are pretty reasonable. > Perhaps they will do, have done what the Vatican has done: make=20 > everything available online. > ************** >=20 > > THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. THAT THE LETTERS ARE NOT=20 FROM=20 > > ANY SUCH THING AS A HIGHER SOURCE, OR ASCENDED MASTER IS=20 > > SELF EVIDENT. THERE IS NOTHING HIGHER OR SUPER HUMAN=20 > > CONTAINED IN THEM AT ALL. ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THEM=20 HAS=20 > > BEEN TAKEN FROM OTHER REAL-WORLD EARTHLY SOURCES. THE=20 > > LETTERS WERE OBVIOUSLY A MERE RUSE TO PROVIDE=20 CREDIBILITY TO=20 > > HPB AND HER FRIENDS AMONG THEIR SELF-DELUDED, CREDULOUS=20 > > FOLLOWERS. > >=20 > > HPB AND FRIENDS WERE ALL PERSONS AFFLICTED WITH=20 SPECIAL- > > NESS...THE NEED TO EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHER HUMAN=20 > > BEINGS THROUGH THE CREATION OF A PATHOLOGICAL MUTUAL- > > APPRECIATION SOCIETY OF FELLOW ELITISTS.=20 > >=20 > > THE MAHATMAS GAVE THEM ALL SPECIAL-NESS. THEIR PROUD=20 > > KNOWER / GNOSTIC FOLLOWERS TODAY ARE ALSO AFFLICTED=20 WITH=20 > > THE PATHOLOGICAL DESIRE FOR SPECIAL-NESS. THIS DRIVES=20 THEM=20 > > AND IS WHY THEY CAN NEVER LET GO OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE=20 SO- > > CALLED MAHATMAS / ASCENDED MASTERS.=20 > >=20 > > THE MASTERS MUST BE REAL, OR THEY LOSE THEIR SPECIAL- NESS=20 > > AND BECOME LIKE, OR LESS, THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THEY=20 BECOME=20 > > SELF-DELUDED AND DELUDING FOOLS WHO HAVE INVESTED THEIR=20 > > LIVES IN A CRUDE HOAX. THUS THE 'MAHATMAS', ASCENDED=20 > > MASTERS, OR 'MASTERED BEINGS' HAVE BECOME THE ALL- CONSUMING=20 > > SELF-DEFINING REALITY OF THEIR FANATICAL BELIEVERS. NO=20 > > AMOUNT OF REASON WILL EVER PRY THEM LOOSE FROM FROM=20 > > THESE 'MASTERS', THEY ARE IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. THEY=20 HAVE=20 > > DEEP-SEATED PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS TO HANG-ON TO THEIR=20 SPECIAL- > > NESS, AND THE MASTERS ALONE PROVIDE IT.=20 > >=20=20 > > THEY WOULD NOT NEED THEIR ASCENDED MASTERS TO SAVE=20 THEM=20 > > FROM UN-SPECIAL-NESS IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF SAMSARA. AS=20 IT=20 > > IS, THESE PATHETIC BEINGS ARE DESPERATE TO HANG ON TO=20 THEIR=20 > > PRIVILEGED POSITION IN PROXIMATION TO THE MASTERS, WHO=20 GIVE=20 > > THEM SPECIAL-NESS, SAVING THEM FROM BEING LIKE ALL OTHER=20 > > SOULS.=20 > >=20=20 > > ALL LONG AS PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL THEMSELVES BETTER OR=20 > > DIFFERENT THAN OTHERS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO INVENT=20 THOUGHT=20 > > SYSTEMS THAT MAKE THEM A SPECIAL ELITE DUE TO RACE=20 > > OR 'KNOWLEDGE', PROXIMITY TO ALIENS OR ASCENDED MASTERS=20 > > ETC. THESE CADRES OF ELITISTS WILL REINFORCE EACHOTHERS'=20 > > SENSE OF SPECIAL-NESS AND HAVE A DIVISIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN=20 > > SOCIETY.=20 > >=20=20 > > THE PROBLEM WITH THEOSOPHISTS IS NOT THAT THEY BELIEVE=20 THAT=20 > > THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL, IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO=20 > > BELIEVE THAT THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS ARE REAL.=20 > >=20=20 > > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WAKE SOMEONE AS LONG AS THEY ARE=20 > > PRETENDING TO SLEEP.=20 > >=20=20 > >=20=20 > > Editor: Someone wrote the "white" lineage of Tibet is the Kargyu=20 > > lineage=85=20 > >=20 > > THERE WAS A COMPLEX YUGA (WORLD EON or AGE), LILA=20 (ACTIVITY)=20=20 > > AND VARNA (OCCUPATIONAL PREDISPOSITION) ASSOCIATED=20 WITH=20 > > THE SYMBOLISM OF VARIOUS COLORS. APPEARED AS BLACK=20 (BLUE) ,=20 > > GREEN, WHITE, RED AND YELLOW IN DIFFERENT YUGAS OR LOKAS=20 > > (LOCATIONS / WORLDS) AND LILAS (PLAY ACTIVITIES) . THESE=20 KIND=20 > > OF COLORS ARE SEEN IN THE SACRED ART OF VISHNU, SHIVA=20 (AND=20 > > THEIR SHAKTIS), AND IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM, INCLUDING THE=20 > > TIBETAN TRADITION, FOR INSTANCE IN THE CULTS OF WHITE=20=20 TARA,=20 > > GREEN TARA ETC. BARAHA (BOAR FORM OF VISHNU) IS OFTEN=20 RED,=20 > > MAHAKALA (TIME FORM OF SHIVA OR KRISHNA) IS BLACK OR=20 BLUE,=20 > > LOKESVARA IS OFTEN BLUE, MANJUSHRI MAY BE WHITE ETC. ON=20 THE=20 > > TANGKAS, THE DIRECTIONS AND PRESIDING FORMS OF THE DEITY=20 ON=20 > > THE MANDALA / YANTRA WILL BE RENDERED IN A COMPLEX=20 SYMBOLIC=20 > > COLOR SCHEME. THE EMANATIONS AND INCARNATIONS OF THE=20 LORD=20 > > AND HIS SHAKTI, LADY TARA, WILL BE COLORED IN KEEPING WITH=20 THE=20 > > ANCIENT TRADITIONS RELATIVE TO THE DOCTRINES OF YUGA,=20 GUNA,=20 > > LILA, VARNA, LOKA, DIRECTION, VYUHA, AVATARAS, AND VARIOUS=20 > > LINEAGES ETC REFERING TO INDIC TRADTIONS FOR CROSS- > > CHECKING THE MEANINGS OF THESE YANTRAS, REVEALS THAT=20 THERE=20 > > IS NO AUTHENTIC ANCIENT CASE IN WHICH ANY ACTUAL RACIAL=20 > > CONNOTATIION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM .=20=20 > >=20=20 > > IN FACT, THE SANKSRIT WORDS FOR BLACK AND BLUE MAY=20 READILY=20 > > BE EXCHANGED OR CONFOUNDED. THIS IS SO COMMON, THAT=20 > > KRISHNA IS ROUTINELY PICTURED AS EITHER BLACK OR BLUE. IN=20 > > NEITHER CASE IS HIS BLACKNESS A HUMAN 'BLACKNESS' . IN THE=20 > > SAME WAY, THE WHITE SKIN OF SUKLA BALA IS SNOW-WHITE,=20 NOT=20 > > A 'CAUCASIAN' HUMAN SKIN-TONE. THE COLORS OF THE=20 VARNAS,=20 > > WHITE FOR BRAHMINS, RED FOR KSHATRIYAS, YELLOW FOR=20 VAISHAS=20=20 > > AND BLACK FOR SUDRAS HAS NO RACIAL CONNOTATION IN THE=20 > > AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20 > >=20 > > AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE LATE THEOSOPHISTS REINTERPRETED=20 > > THESE TRADITIONS AS SUPPORTING THEIR IDEAS OF RACIST=20 > > ARYANISM.=20=20 > > TO MAKE THE ARYANS WHITES AND RACISTS, THEY HAD TO=20 REMOVE=20 > > VISHNU, SHIVA AND LOKESVARA , THE 'BLACK' (BLUE SAME WORD)=20 > > GODS OF THE ARYANS FROM THE PICTURE ! IT SIMPLY WOULD=20 NOT=20 > > BE ACCEPTABLE FOR THE ARYANS TO WORSHIP A 'BLACK' GOD.=20=20 SO=20 > > USING ATHEISTIC ADVAITA VEDANTIST WORD JUGGLERY, THEY=20 > > REMOVED THE 'ARYANS' DEITY OUT OF HIS OWN SCRIPTURES.=20=20=20 THEY=20 > > EITHER RE-CREATED RAMA AND KRISHNA AS ARYAN RACE=20 HEROES, OR=20 > > THEY EXPLAINED THEM OUT OF THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES. SINCE=20 THE=20 > > IMPERSONALIST AND ATHEIST MAYAVADI HINDUS AND=20 THERAVADIN=20 > > BUDDHIST HAD ALREADY REMOVED THE DEITY FROM 'HINDUISM'=20 > > AND 'BUDDHISM',=20 > >=20 > > THIS IS THE SAME KIND OF EXTREME CORRUPTION OF TRADITION=20 > > THAT THE 'HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL' KIND OF GNOSTIC RACE=20 > > FANATICS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN CHRISTIANITY. GOD /=20 JESUS=20 > > MUST BE RECAST AS A RACIAL ARYAN, OR REJECTED ENTIRELY.=20=20 > > HUMANITY'S TIME-DEPTH MEMORY IS USUALLY ONLY AS OLD AS=20 ONE=20 > > OR TWO GENERATIONS. IF A NEW GENERATION IS RAISED WITH=20 NO=20 > > ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE PAST, OR ITS RELIGIOUS=20 > > TRADITIONS, THEN IT MAY BE INDOCTRINATED WITH=20 PRACTICALLY=20 > > ANY IDEOLOGY OR HISTORICAL WORLD VIEW. UNDER THE=20 BRITISH IN=20 > > INDIA, IT WAS FORBIDDEN FOR AUTHENTIC VAISHNAVAS TO=20 TEACH=20 > > THE BHAGAVAD-GITA IN THE SCHOOLS. THE AUTHENTIC GITA OF=20 SRI=20 > > KRISHNA WAS CONSIDERED TOO POLITICALLY DANGEROUS. THE=20 > > CHINESE TRIED TO WIPE-OUT PURE LAND BUDDHISM IN CHINA=20 AND=20 > > HAVE ALL BUT DESTROYED AUTHENTIC TIBETAN BUDDHISM. THEY=20 > > HAVE ALSO EMPLOYED CORRUPTION AND CONTROL OF THE=20 TRADITION=20 > > ITSELF TO DO THIS. THE CHINESE HAVE TRIED TO CORRUPT=20 > > CATHOLICISM BY CREATING AND CONTROLLING THEIR OWN=20 STATE- > > RUN CHINESE 'CATHOLIC CHURCH'. IN THE SAME WAY, THE EURO- > > ARYANISTS TRIED TO USE THE RELIGION OF THE ARYAS TO=20 SUPPORT=20 > > THEIR RACIST AGENDA, BY RE-CASTING RAMA AND KRISHNA AS=20 ARYAN=20 > > RACE HEROES. THE MUSLIMS REDACTED HINDU TEXTS TO=20 CONTROL=20 > > THE MASSES OF INDIA. MUCH OF THE KORAN ITSELF IS A RE- > > WORKING OF JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN TRADITON. SOME MUSLIM=20 > > NATIONS FORBID THE POSSESSION OF A REAL BIBLE UNDER PAIN=20 OF=20 > > DEATH. HITLER TRIED TO USE TEUTONIC PAGAN TRADITIONS TO=20 HIS=20 > > ADVANTAGE IN UNIFYING THE GERMANIC PEOPLES. RELIGION HAS=20 > > ALWAYS BEEN USED, CORRUPTED AND ABUSED FOR THE=20 PURPOSES OF=20 > > CONQUEST AND SOCIAL CONTROL.=20 > >=20=20 > > SO ON ONE HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT 'ARYA' MEANS THE 'WHITE=20 > > RACE', AND ON THE OTHER HAND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS A=20 > > RELIGIOUS, SYMBOLIC TERM WITH NO RACIAL CONNOTATION AT=20 ALL.=20=20=20 > > THUS SANSKRIT TERMS LIKE 'ARYA' AND 'KRISHNA' ARE=20 INTERPRETED=20 > > AND REINTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO THEIR CONTEXT, ANY WAY=20 IT=20 > > SUITS THE THEOSOPHISTS AT THE MOMENT. ARYA ONLY MEANS=20 > > RACE WHEN THEY WANT IT TO ! > >=20=20 > > THE LORD'S EMANATIONS / THEOPHANIES, YUGA , LILA AND GUNA=20 > > AVATARAS AND MURTI AND TANGKA FORMS OF COLOR, CLEARLY=20 > > REVEAL THE ANCIENT AUTHENTIC USES OF THIS SYMBOLISM,=20 DEVOID=20 > > OF ANY REFERENCE TO MUNDANE COLOR OR RACISM.=20 > >=20 > > . IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A=20 > > MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE VARIEGATED BEAUTIFUL COLORS=20 OF=20 > > OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE IMMATERIAL REALM.=20=20 NO=20 > > WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS THE BLACKNESS OF SRI=20 KRISHNA=20 > > ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL MONIER WILLIAMS MADE=20 THIS=20 > > ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST SANSKRIT-ENGLISH=20 DICTIONARY ! IN=20 > > THIS WORK, THE BLUE / BLACK MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT=20 OF=20 > > THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS=20 > > AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE=20 > > TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND=20 > > IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE-BLACK / GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE=20 > > ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI KRISHNA WAS DEALT WITH TWO=20 WAYS=20 > > BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN=20 RACE=20 > > HERO TEACHING ADVAITA VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS=20 A=20 > > DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A=20 > > BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE=20 > > IDEA OF TWO DIFFERENT KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION=20 OF=20 > > THE ARYANISTS WITH REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA.=20=20 THE=20 > > ARYANISTS WANT THE GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY=20 > > INSIST THAT THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED=20 ADVAITA=20 > > VEDANTIST ARYAN, AND THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI=20 > > SHASTRAS AND IDOLATROUS VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME=20 OTHER=20 > > BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20=20=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > A CROSS-CULTURAL CHECK ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THE SUPREME=20 > > LORD IN THE MEDITERRANEAN REGION WAS ALSO COMMONLY=20 > > DEPICTED IN NON-WHEN WE COME HEREW WE TRY TO RECREATE=20 THE=20 > > BEUATIFUL COLORS OF THE SUPER-MUNDANE REALM, BUT ARE=20 ONLY=20 > > ABLE TO EMBODY OURSELVES IN EARTHY SHADES / HUMAN=20 COLORS.=20=20 > > HOWEVER WHEN GOD STEPS INTO OUR WORLD, HE CAN REVEAL=20 > > HIMSELF IN THE BEAUTY OF IN-HUMAN COLORS. THUS OSIRIS=20 WAS=20 > > BLUE, BLACK, GREEN, RED OR YELLOW. SKR (SUKLA / SUKRA=20 BALA) OR=20 > > SOKAR WAS WHITE. HERI WAS DEPICTED IN A VARIETY OF=20 COLORS=20 > > JUST LIKE OSIRIS. THE SUPREME FATHER-GOD WAS OFTEN BLUE.=20 ( I=20 > > WILL INSERT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BELOW). IN VAISHNAVA=20 > > TRADITION IT IS ASSERTED THAT THOSE IN THE TRANSCENDENT=20 > > SPIRITUAL SKY HAVE NON-MATERIAL FORMS WITH COLORS=20 > > SOMETHING LIKE THE FLOWER COLORS OF OUR WORLD ! SRI=20 > > KRISHNA'S TRANSCENDENTAL PLAYMATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE=20 > > GREEN, BLUE, YELLOW ETC. IT IS SAID THAT THE EXISTANCE OF=20 > > RACE IN OUR WORLD IS A MUNDANE REFLECTION OF THE=20 VARIEGATED=20 > > BEAUTIFUL COLORS OF OUR BEATIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES IN THE=20 > > IMMATERIAL REALM. NO WHERE IN VAISHNAVA TRADITION IS=20 THE=20 > > BLACKNESS OF SRI KRISHNA ASSOCIATED WITH EVIL.....BUT STILL=20 > > MONIER WILLIAMS MADE THIS ASSOCIATION IN HIS ARYANIST=20 > > SANSKRIT-ENGLISH DICTIONARY ! IN THIS WORK, THE BLUE /=20 BLACK=20 > > MEANING FOR THE WORD-ROOT OF THE NAME 'KRISHNA' WAS=20 > > TRANSLATED BY MONIER-WILLIAMS AS 'BLACK' AND ASSOCIATED=20 > > WITH EVIL ! HE IGNORED THE TRADITIONAL MEANINGS AND=20 > > BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATIONS AND IMPOSED A RACIST WHITE- BLACK /=20 > > GOOD-EVIL MEANING ON THE ENTIRE SUBJECT. THUS SRI=20 KRISHNA=20 > > WAS DEALT WITH TWO WAYS BY THE EURO-ARYANISTS. HE WAS=20 > > RECAST AS A WHITE ARYAN RACE HERO TEACHING ADVAITA=20 > > VEDANTA, OR HE WAS DIABOLIAZED AS A DIFFERENT KRISHNA, AN=20 > > EVIL BLACK ONE, THE TRIBAL GOD OF A BUNCH OF IDOLATROUS=20 > > SAVAGES. TO THIS DAY THIS NONSENSE IDEA OF TWO=20 DIFFERENT=20 > > KRISHNAS DOMINATES THE DISCUSSION OF THE ARYANISTS=20 WITH=20 > > REGARD TO THE KRISHNA OF THE GITA. THE ARYANISTS WANT=20 THE=20 > > GITA, BUT NOT ITS BLACK DEITY, SO THEY INSIST THAT THE=20 KRISHNA=20 > > OF THE GITA IS A SELF-REALIZED ADVAITA VEDANTIST ARYAN,=20=20 AND=20 > > THE KRISHNA OF THE OTHER BHAKTI SHASTRAS AND=20 IDOLATROUS=20 > > VAISHNAVAS' ALTARS IS SOME OTHER BLACK-EVIL LOW CLASS=20 > > TANTRIC DEVA / GOD.=20=20 > > So I don't care what Daniel C.Caldwell calls me, last week he=20 > called=20 > > me "jasmine." Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you=20 > can=20 > > call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or=20 > Joanne,=20 > > whatever.=20 > >=20 > > The real issue is that since Daniel H. Caldwell has no answers to=20 > the=20 > > question posted he must know the Mahatma Letters are a=20 concocted=20 > > Fraud. > >=20 > > Otherwise how does Daniel H. Caldwell explains something like" > >=20 > > Or that "Koot Hoomi"'s claim that "..." ? > >=20 > > Daniel H. Caldwell also circumvents the issues reg. the `MASTER'=20 > that=20 > > THEY CLAIM TO BE MASTERS OF ANCIENT INDIAN OR "ESOTERIC=20 > > BUDDHIST" TRADITION, R WATEVER, BUT GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF=20 ANY=20 > > REAL MASTERY OF THESE TRADITIONS AT ALL. AT BEST THEY=20 > > APPEAR TO BE HIGHLY EDUCATED WESTERNERS AND=20 UNDISCIPLINED=20 > > HINDU-BUDDHIST NEOPHYTES. > >=20 > > THEIR 'VOICE' IS ALL WRONG FOR REAL ANCIENT ADEPTS, AND=20 THE=20 > > MASTERFUL CONTENT OF THEIR LETTERS IS LAUGHABLE. I WILL=20 > > ASK "WHAT ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LETTERS THE MASTERS=20 > > OF ? IF THESE LETTERS ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS, THEN WHAT IS=20 > > THEIR APPARENT QUALIFICATION FOR TEACHING ?" WHERE IS=20 THE=20 > > PROOF IN THE LETTERS THAT THESE "MAHATMAS" ARE WHAT=20 AND=20 > > WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE ? IF THEY KNEW THE TRUTH=20 > > ABOUT "INDIAN" AND EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS ETC. BACK THEN,=20 THEN=20 > > WHY DID THEY TEACH SO MUCH UTTER NONSENSE AND MISLEAD=20 > > PEOPLE ? " THE 'MASTERS' CAN BE EXPOSED JUST BY EXAMINING=20 > > THEIR CLAIMED EXPERTISE. WHAT KNOWLEDGE IS EVIDENT=20 IN 'THEIR'=20 > > LETTERS? LET US GIVE THESE 'MASTERS' AN EXAM ON REAL- WORLD=20 > > INDO-ASIAN OR EGYPTIAN TRADITIONS. THEY WILL FAIL. DO=20 YOU=20 > > THINK THAT THEY WILL SHOW-UP AGAIN TO EXPLAIN TO THE=20 WORLD=20 > > WHY THEY FAILED ?=20 > >=20 > > SURELY THEIR SELF-DELUDED CHELAS WILL RATIONALIZE THEIR=20 > > ERRORS AND OMISSIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS, BUT ANYONE,=20 WHO=20 > > NOT SO ENTHRALLED TO THEM, WILL SEE THAT THE 'MASTERS'=20 WERE=20 > > MASTERS OF EXACTLY WHAT HPB AND FRIENDS WERE MASTERS=20 OF,=20 > > AND NOTHING MORE. > >=20=20=20 > >=20=20 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > > > Nov 8 2002 > > >=20 > > > Dear Friends : > > >=20 > > > In recent weeks we have been discussing the subject of Man's=20 > > evolution > > > and the 7-fold nature of our Earth as represented in the "Globes" > > > ( see S D I 200 diagram ). > > >=20 > > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 09 01:27:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 09:27:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 86557 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 09:27:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 09:27:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 09:27:42 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.158.172cee81 (4410) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:27:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <158.172cee81.2afe2f0b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:27:39 EST Subject: Theos-World 100% certainty?? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dal's commentary re the SD certainly makes more sense than the prejudiced contrary opinions about the validity of HPB's message we have been subjected to lately. Interestingly, the recent holistic theories of Superstrings/M-branes (see Brian Greene's, "The Elegant Universe," and superstringtheory.com) with its 11 enfolded spatial "dimensions" (including Time, although it is not a "spatial" dimension, but a measure of change) -- which throws into a cocked hat all currently accepted reductive scientific theories and its assumptions that our 4-dimensional "material" space time continuum is all that exists and that "consciousness" is an epiphenomena of matter -- almost fully confirms the theosophical concepts of a multidimensional universe (7-10-14 etc.) composed of transcendental (hyperspace) fields that are "coadunate but not consubstantial," and follow the fundamental laws of electricity and "force" such as, cycles and periodicity, resonance, induction, harmony, holography, etc. Therefore, If the new paradigm of Superstring/M-brane theory along with the theories of "morphogenetic fields" (ref: Ruppert Sheldrake) ultimately replaces (or merges) relativity, quantum and classical theories, and wipes out all anthropological theories of mans origin, as well as confirming my ABC theory of visual perception and self consciousness -- then the theosophical theories of rounds and races, karma and reincarnation might very well be logical imperatives that one day may be "proved" both mathematically and scientifically -- as HPB predicted. (And, as she also presaged both relativity and quantum theories.) See references at: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html In a message dated 08/21/02 3:16:09 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Caldwell: 100% certainty?? > >Brian: That is the ultimate fall back (if all ells fails), except once a foot >in the door Theosophist then will come back and say "well you see, so >maybe it's true there are indeed all these sub races the Secret Doctrine >claims !? > >Dalval/Dallas wrote (of course Daniel Caldwell doesn't agree with that >right ?) <<1. The establishing of the facts that Esoteric and Oriental Literature and philosophy have recorded in regard to the evolution of our Earth. This covers each of the first 3 ROUNDS (3 times around the 7 GLOBES) and, specifically, it deals with the history of evolution in this, the 4th ROUND. In this 4th ROUND it deals with the most recent time period named by HPB in the SD the 4th GLOBE [see Diagram SD I 200]. One must remember that these (ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES, SUB-RACES are measures of time. Another fact that esotericism speaks of is that there have been great changes in material (PHYSICAL), psychological (MIND, FEELINGS, EMOTIONS) and spiritual (MONADIC) development. These are traced by occultism and a summary is offered to us, together with explanations in Vol. 2 of the S D. We can, by reading what is offered there, learn in greater detail about our own past history. About that which occurred during those vast periods. In S D I p. 181, HPB gives basic facts about three lines of Evolution. She describes them around that page and names them. 1. Spiritual (or MONADIC). 2. Intellectual ( or Manasic), and 3. Physical. (or material). It will be found that the 2nd Vol. of the S D focuses in still greater detail on the 4 RACES that have preceded ours. It provides information concerning our evolution there and upon the development of mind and psyche and Soul. The physical side of evolution and its remains as fossils and monuments -- contrasting with the Scientific views of geology and archaeology are also discussed as of the time when HPB wrote which was over 1110 years ago. It is very important to realize ( and carry this in mind during the following consideration) that the Reincarnating EGO (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) in each human being is an IMMORTAL (as a MONAD). It has been called the Eternal Pilgrim. It moves from body to body, as the eras and races pass in time and development of faculties that are embodied in the character and the talents of each of us. In all cases there is always an improving of our range of experience; and, gradually we can trace a widening to a comprehension of the Universe, and an intuitional inquiry into the causes of both our diversity and coupled, our close unity. Ultimately we find that the UNITY of ALL dawns on us as a potential and then as an actuality. It is a most wonderful prospect and gives to each of us a sense of purpose, of dignity, and of an importance, which, once grasped cannot be relinquished. We find that brotherhood is the basis for all relationships -- there is a commonality--a sharing--of spirit, mind and matter, that these are all shared, even though we may try to guard that which we think is solely "our own." Therefore, we, who now use 5th RACE, "Aryan Race" bodies, were the same EGOS that used the old "Atlantean" bodies (through each of its 7-fold Races), and, the still older "Lemurian" bodies (and their 7-fold RACE development). When we speak of those old RACES we are speaking of ourselves when we lived in them and used them. We are trying to look into our own past history. When we visit Cyclopean monuments, we are revisiting buildings in which we may have had a hand in their original construction or subsequent renovation and restoration down the eras of time. Our present human bodies--that we are using today--each has in its past as heredity, one or a mixture of the Sub-Races of the 5th RACE. It, the 5th Race, named "Aryan" (or Noble), is said to be about 1,050,000 years old [ SD II 141, 144-5, 395]. The Aryan race arose among the later sub-races of the Atlanteans, and gradually separated from that older root stock. There are still human groups and tribes whose heredity can be traced to the Atlanteans; and even to the last sub-races of the Lemuro-Atlanteans. It takes vast ages for all the traits and characteristics of a great Race to die out completely. All this complexity is explained in detail in SD vol. II. The 3rd Race was named Lemurian. The 4th Race was named Atlantean. Lemuria, as a continent, is said to have begun slipping below the ocean 4,242,352 years back (as of 1888) [ SD I 439fn]. 998,100 years ago the Atlantean continent began sinking [SD II 10, 141, 144, ISIS I 557, 593] The last Island related to Atlantis, is said to have sunk 9,664 BC [ML 155, SD II 5, 8, 406, 444fn, ISIS I 589-94]. In the SD we can find that a special date is drawn attention to (SD I 150 Fn). It is over 18 million years ago, when the Mind of humanity is said to have been "lighted up." [ see SD II 167, 254-5, 70-80]. Since the description of the facts found narrated in ancient oriental literature and the secret books of the Occult Fraternity, runs in many ways contrary to the hypothesis and theories of our modern Archaeology, one finds that much of the 2nd Volume of the SD is a great polemic, and many arguments are advance in contrasting opposing views: the theories of Archaeology and the FACTS of Occult Science and History. Our modern Sciences of Archaeology, Geology, Paleontology, etc... are hardly 250 years old. Looking at the physical evidence only, theories were devised (based on that physical evidence alone) to account for the evolution of living beings on Earth. There was, and is, an on-going conflict between "evolutionists" and "creationists." Geology provides details concerning the effect of climate on minerals, plants and the fossils of animals and humans, and archaeology employs these as clues to the timing of evolutionary events. It is all based on physical evidence. The evolution of consciousness, mind, intelligence, instinct and intuition are invisible, hence the Scientific speculations based on solely the physical evidence of change cannot possibly give an accurate view of their separate evolution. When we look at the evidence of geological change, the S D states that in some cases we may also be looking at the concretized remains and evidence of evolutionary change in the ASTRAL periods. Thus some fossils and strata reflect traces of those ancient Astral conditions and its changes during those past eras in terms of our present highly condensed material -- which now clothes the original Astral forms. [ One might consider (using an analogy) that the space between the Atomic nuclei and their peripheral electrons was even wider in those early days than they are to day, thus making the appearance of "matter" far more tenuous--"misty" to us as a perspective. As matter "condensed" so did the Astral fossils and strata.] The great difference between Occult and material Science in this, lies in a grasp of the nature of the early periods of Astral development and its changes prior to our so very material physical evolution. The early Rounds of our Earth (One, Two, Three to the middle of the 4th ROUND) are largely evolutionary periods involving only the Astral material and its progress. Minerals, plants animals and mankind were all astral in form, and just as "solid" to each other then, in those periods, as we are today solid to one another in this kind of condensed "matter" that we use all the time. Physical Matter, such as we now are familiar with, and live in, became gradually more concretely manifest and visible in the 4th GLOBE of this, our ROUND (which is the 4th in the World series of rounds). The 4th GLOBE, of this 4th ROUND, being the densest -- which is where we are, as "forms," now.). In this our 4th GLOBE, the 7 RACES which form, also, the sub-divisions of time, recapitulate the entire process of development (as the fetus does in the womb) of the 3 earlier ROUNDS. RACES One, Two and Three (Lemurian) up to the middle of the 3rd were largely Astral forms -- of Astral matter, and these have gradually consolidated as the material conditions changed and densified around them. [ SD I 142, ] The Astral form is electro-magnetic in character and for each individual intelligence (be this mineral, plant, animal or human) there is a specific and individual "force-field" to which cooperative materials are attracted. These assist in making a coherent bodily form. Thus, the Astral is held in esotericism to always precede the physical. If one considers what Science teaches us today about the constitution of the atom, we can see that if we analyze our physical body to its ultimate nature we are left with "force-fields" that are "atomic" in nature and quality. But that Power which draws specific atoms to form molecules, cells, and physical structures into a living body, is yet to be located, and subject to analysis. Yet, it exists since we are here, using our bodies and very conscious in them of both feelings and thoughts. At our present evolutionary stage, the astral form/entity is entirely interior to the physical. It forms the mold or framework on which the physical molecules, cells, and other physical structures form a coherent cooperative, in which an Intelligence (called the Human Personality) can reside. It is far more resistant to change than physical matter and serves as the continuing basis for our appearance, from childhood to old age. There is an astral BRAIN which is the true center of Intelligence, and where memory is recorded. The physical Brain changes and alters from second to second, (as does the living matter of the whole body) and so, the Brain, is constantly renewed as it deteriorates and that which needs removal is replaced. It is the physical tool of the Astral True Brain. In Man's form, a MIND (in addition to the feeling, sensitive Personality) also resides [SD II 167, 79-80, 254-5]. Man's form has associated with it, all the impulse of a well-developed instinctual and desire nature. The Mind in man is of the Spiritual essence that inheres in Him; it is THIS (the MONAD -- the HIGHER SELF) that broods over each of our personalities as we live our daily life. We can thus see that no matter how many fossils are discovered, the astral, the mental and the spiritual heredity and evolution cannot be deduced from them. Because of this HPB had to draw comparisons with the facts known to Occultism and those tentative theories and hypotheses that were being advanced by archaeology, and the scientific theories on evolution and heredity that were current in her day -- and which as is usually the case became accepted as "true" and as a "basis" on which to further pursue study and deposit sich additional facts as were unearthed. [One ought to become familiar with the 3 books written by Michael Cremo and Richard Thompson regarding FORBIDDEN ARCHAEOLOGY -- which uncover some of the data that archaeology has concealed -- if it did not fit those theories.] Since HPB's time, there have been some changes brought on by fresh discoveries and technical improvements in the views and dating of modern Science, but the basic distinction between the physical and the astral, the physical and the intellectual, and the physical and the Spiritual consciousness has never yet been derived from fossils. Nor have their evolution been traced except hypothetically. The general theories current when the S D was written over 110 years ago, are still in place, but thanks to dating techniques the antiquity of early times and geological ages have been extended and widened. In the 2nd part of this essay we offer some data for comparison on this. During HPB's time another theory (besides Lyell's 'Gradualism') concerning evolution was also under consideration in France, based on the observations and hypothesis of the eminent scientist Georges Cuvier (1769-1832). Cuvier as a Zoologist and Chancellor of the University of Paris developed from his observations of fossils found in old geological strata the concept of "Catastrophism." Great global cataclysms were seen to substantially alter the progress of evolution from time to time. A perspective is needed to view these. Geologists have revealed many great catastrophic changes that have left their mark on global geology. For example: (These time-frame estimates are made by modern Geology.) Early Cambrian Age (estimated at 570 million years ago). Unicellular forms seem suddenly to give way to multicellular ones showing mineralized skeletons -- trilobites, etc... The cause for this change is not known. At the end of the Ordovician Period (estimated at 425 million years ago). The cause of a vast mass extinction that occurred then is yet to be determined. This was apparently accompanied by a long ice age. At the close of the Devonian Age (estimated at 365 million years ago). Another mass extinction of species occurred -- cause yet to be determined. The Paleozoic Era was brought to a close (estimated at 225 million years ago). A most violent mass extinction (including the ancient trilobites) occurred leaving only about 5% of all species alive. It is theorized that the supercontinent "Pangea" -- "mother" of the present continents was then in place. Water diminished, and sea levels lowered dramatically Massive volcanic action seems to have taken place. Triassic Period, at its end (estimated at 190 million years ago). Another mass extinction of living species was observed. This may have been triggered it has been theorized by the impact of large meteorite or a small comet in the area of Quebec's Lake Manicougan (60 mile wide crater). The subsequent ice age caused a massive die-off of living forms. It is theorized that the hypothetical link (Cotylosaurus) between the dinosaurs and the mammillae and reptiles was destroyed at that time. 65 million years ago another comet/meteorite also collided with the Earth and the resulting devastation caused the death of most of the Earth's species. This included the remaining dinosaurs and reptiles. A world wide layer of iridium between 2 layers of limestone may have been deposited as iridium, rare on Earth, is largely present in meteorites [1980, Alvarez]. Mammals survived and a new distribution of fauna prospered after this. 35 million years ago saw possibly two impacts (one under the Chesapeake Bay, and another in Siberia) that triggered the death of most of the animal species of the Earth, as a great ice age ensued. . This catalog causes one to observe that long periods of relative stability can be traced by geologists to be interrupted by violent events: floods or volcanism. These upheavals alter the course of Life as a whole. Archaeologists and Geologists wonder if a new era and change in quality of life is marked by the rapid development of new species. For example it is noticed that fossils indicate a rapid rise in the mammalian population of the Earth following the general demise of the dinosaurs some 65 million years ago. Later still human fossils begin to be found in strata that seems to be around 4 million years old. In HPB's time a very grudging 40 to 100,000 years was allowed for the emergence of the human frame, presumably from that of the apes, which so closely resembled them. But the S D teaches that the Apes are the descendents of man and not its predecessors or progenitors. [ see SD, Vol. II] Scientists of HPB's time like Mr. De Quatrefages and others, challenged this "descent from the Apes theory" because anatomically man's skeleton can be shown to precede that of the Apes. To explain this: Man's skeletal form is far more primitive, and the skeletons of the Apes show specializations that could only be derived by environmental requirements placed on them. Whereas the human skeleton can be shown to remain unchanged in structure no matter how old the strata may be from which his fossils may be found. The antiquity of the strata shows no variation in man's skeleton. Further the special characteristics of various human skeletal features can be found today among us. We are also aware that today with our current highly technological civilization, there are savage tribes and races that still co-exist with us in South America, Australia, Africa, Polynesia, (not to mention the "inner-city" jungles that we have created in our large cities). An additional factor is the size of the brain. It has to be noted that Man's cranial capacity, the average -- including those we term 'savages' -- is 100 cubic inches or more. This is about 3 times as large as the brain volume of the largest Ape, the Gorilla, which measures on the average, 31 cubic inches or less. [SD II 293fn, 661, 676, 682].>> From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 09 02:45:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 10:45:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 73532 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 10:45:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 10:45:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 10:45:57 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BC5FB5F5ED2 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:38:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000e01c287ca$b93384a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> <000501c2878a$9f2c1c60$bf0be043@u7k5a4> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:33:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hí Dennis and all of you, Well. Let one of us contact John alego then ! from M. Sufilight with patience and the like... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Kier" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > Morten: > > Curiously enough, I had some correspondence with John Algeo a year or > so ago asking about this subject. He replied and said that their was a > 35mm (color) slide set of the letters, and said that it should not be > too much trouble to put them in a museum section on his web site at > www.theosophical.org, but I have gone back there from time to time, > and it has never appeared. > > But the relevant information is that there is a color slide set in > existance of the letters, and I seem to have the impression is that it > was a commercial venture of some nature, so there should be more than > one set of the slides somewhere in the world. > > Does anyone else know any more details of this? > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eldon B Tucker" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > A few stray comments ... > > > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > > questions and points > > > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the > Mahatma > > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on > PDF-file or > > >another file-format ?* > > > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if > they > > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would > have > > the final say. > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 09 02:48:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 10:48:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 87206 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 10:48:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 10:48:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 10:48:18 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.127.1a381c65 (4410) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 05:48:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <127.1a381c65.2afe41e9@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 05:48:09 EST Subject: Re: Trinity To: MindBrain@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 09/04/02 11:53:02 AM, medinuclear@hotmail.com writes: > >>From Philip Benjamin medinuclear@hotmail.com >Experience, Trinity and the West. > >[Anthony Sebastian] > >One important thing that we observe is that sometimes we experience that >we are experiencing objects and events. > >[Benjamin] > >Sometimes is Dt. Experience is Dx Experience of objects & even= ts >is Don + Den, where n is 1 to infinity. To use a little high school math= , > dx/dt =3D do/dt + de/dt. Could this be right? Is this what you mean? Why >should there be any boundary conditions? Who determines the boundaries >and how? Why should this experience be limited to a few objects and events >and not an infinity of objects and events? Why the *experiensor* is so=20 finite >in experiencing? > >[Leon Maurer] > >As the Buddha said, "Nothing comes from nothing." ........=E2=80=9Ccould b= e modeled >as a zero-point that is spinning in infinite directions on infinite axes >with infinite degrees of angular momenta.....=E2=80=9D. > >[Benjamin] > >Very true, for your Buddha was a finite creature like you and me (nothing >pejorative meant or implied)! Could this be true if your Buddha was=20 >infinite in knowledge and power? Is an infinity of nothing, nothing or >infinity? Are there no normal cautions and precautions one has to take >when dealing with infinity? You do not and cannot deny that there is no=20 >such thing as infinity! It always crops up in mathematics. At least death,= =20 >for some, is an infinity of nothingness, and is very real. If there is no such thing as an infinity, what is there beyond the bounds o= f=20 this finite universe? If it can crop up in mathematics, then it at least i= t=20 is a conceivable, or (better) "imaginable" concept. How many times can we= =20 trace around a circle? And how long can an infinitesimal point of space wit= h=20 no energy in itself, and nothing to stop it, keep on spinning? How can=20 linear motion, which is the root of ALL energy in this entire universe, com= e=20 from non motion? I have no trouble imagining the "emptiness" (of "Sturm an= d=20 Drang," energy and form, cognition and matter) that had to exist before the= =20 Big Bang. >[Leon Maurer] > >This would correspond, perhaps, to the ancient esoteric Eastern=20 >philosophical doctrine (later borrowed in distorted form by both Eastern >and Western organized religions) that the Universe is a fundamental trinit= y=20 >that is the sum of consciousness, matter and space -- the "father, the=20 >mother and the son (or holy ghost) -- so to speak. > >[Benjamin] > >Here is a question, not of faith, or fallacy but of accuracy and=20 >authenticity. It is very possible that you are an expert on Eastern=20 >mysticism and philosophy. On the other hand, I know very little, precious >too little, about Western philosophy and theology. So I have to be extreme= ly >careful when I quote or write anything on these matters. After much=20 >deliberation on this, I can confidently say that the trinity you are=20 >referring to has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Trinity of the Bible. I agree, it was intended only as a metaphor, albeit a weak one -- since you= r=20 take on the Christian version of the Old Testament is based solely on its=20 "dead letter" interpretations of contrived theology by ignorant, power hung= ry=20 Kings, priests, and their hired scribes who needed to brain wash their=20 ignorant followers into accepting their version of a vengeful personal God,= =20 as well as his ten commandments and "vicarious atonement" without question.= =20 This is not (although consistent with it in numbers only) the esoteric trut= hs=20 of logical, if not "scientific" Cosmogenesis as known to the ancient Easter= n=20 mystic philosophers (and Kabbalist who understood the ancient Hebrew Torah,= =20 and its numerical interpretation which is almost identical to the ancient=20 hermetic mysteries).=20 These ancients seemed to understand that the universe of infinite substanti= al=20 and coenergetic "form and measure" must have involved and evolved out of an= =20 "emptiness (of form and measure) that was also a "fullness" of potentially= =20 infinite energetic motion or energy, as well as potentially infinite=20 awareness.=20=20 Isn't it obvious that where there is objectivity, there has to be=20 subjectivity? Can one exist without the other -- either, as noumena in the= =20 realm of pre Cosmic, non metric, proto-space, or as phenomena in the post=20 cosmic realm of metric space? If the phenomenal universe is infinite, then= =20 its source must also be infinite. On the other hand, if the universe is=20 finite, and possibly one of many, then its source could either be infinite = or=20 finite. (But in this case "finite" could be a pretty large googolplex=20 number.) In any case, the given is that "nothing comes from nothing." And= ,=20 even the noumena of both consciousness and matter, which must come into=20 existence and go out of "existence" as a unity -- is "something." If that=20 source is not infinite, it still must be far greater that it is our=20 possibility to imagine or measure the extent of the physical universe or th= e=20 scope of its fields of consciousness. =20 >[Benjamin] > >The trinity of the Bible is =E2=80=9CElohim=E2=80=9D a uni-plural Name of = an Eternal and >Infinite conscious Being which is referred to as =E2=80=9CGODHEAD=E2=80=9D= three times >in the Greek Scriptures. There is eternal communication, planning and=20 >=E2=80=9Cordaining=E2=80=9D of events between the persons of the Trinity. This anthropomorphized version of the Trinity is based solely on the esoter= ic=20 fundamental concepts of ancient occultism, that understood that all spheric= al=20 fields, must be formed in accord with the fundamental laws of cycles and=20 periodicity... And, therefore, the first emanation out of the initial=20 zero-point of infinite, "omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent" subjective= =20 awareness (which some might call God) surrounded by its objective spherical= =20 "spinergy" must be in the form of three spherical fields (one surrounding=20 two) of descending substantiality's that are, due to their zero-point cente= rs=20 of origin, fully conscious and aware individualities -- having all the=20 knowledge of the holographic interference patterned information regarding t= he=20 Universes previous "creation" or "awakening" stored in the infinite lines o= f=20 circular force of their originating primal spinergy. Thus, in esoteric=20 philosophy or theosophy, these three "beings" or triune "Crown" of the ten= =20 (3+7) Sephirothal (fields of consciousness) are called "Cosmocratores" or=20 "Architects of the Universe."=20 The "Elohim," which represents in the Kabbala the ten Sephirothal emanation= s=20 of the Primal source or "Ein Soph" (no thing) is not the trinity of the=20 Bible. Since these emanations can be broken down into three upper fields,= =20 then four fields and finally three again. The first three -- the crown,=20 "Kether" (representing the surrounding field of universal consciousness) pl= us=20 the twin inner fields of dual mind, "Binah" (representing Wisdom), and=20 Chochma (representing knowledge) --are the "Trinity" of the Bible (and all= =20 other esoteric interpretations of the universal religion). Below the first= =20 triune conscious field emanations, are the four fields of more substantial = u niversal matter, and below that the three fields of human consciousness and= =20 dual mind nature that reflect the triple fields of God or universal nature.= =20=20 These fields of the upper trinity of the Sephirothal "Tree of Life" are als= o=20 noted in the Brahmanical ten fold nature of the Universe, as Brahma (the=20 creator) Vishnu (the sustainer) and Shiva (the destroyer). It interesting=20 that the recent configurations of Superstring/M-brane theory consider the=20 universe as a ten dimensional manifold of both hidden and objective energy= =20 fields starting with single strings of fundamental energy emanating out of= =20 the zero-point.=20=20 >[Benjamin] > >For example =E2=80=9CLet US make man in OUR image (not images). =E2=80=9CW= ho shall=20 >go for US, whom shall WE send"? Or =E2=80=9C Draw near to me, hear this: = from the=20 >beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have= =20 >been there. And now the Adonai Elohim has sent Me and His Spirit=E2=80= =9D.=20 >These are not some nebulous ethereal consciousnesses floating around.=20 >These are three distinct Persons- with personality, will, emotion,=20 >intelligence in perfect unison and resonance and communication with=20 >each other with a holographic, hierarchical structure and order.=20 >The closest analogy will be the old fashioned Western description of=20 >a human as spirit, soul, and body, a triune entity awaiting a PHYSICAL=20 >resurrection. There is no triple headed Trinity, just as there >is no triple headed human. That's only if one takes a strictly materialistic view and dead letter=20 interpretation of the religious concepts of spirit (or consciousness) and=20 matter. However, the logical foundation of the universe based on the=20 emanation of its being out of the consciously aware and coenergetic=20 zero-point spinergy requires that the first three fields be individually=20 conscious and aware of the entire nature of the previously conscious univer= se=20 itself... That can have no beginning or end, and must, in obedience to its = f undamentally inherent laws of cycles and energetics, sleep and wake=20 periodically -- without forgetting its previous awakenings -- just as we do= .=20=20 >From the universal point of view, if all of nature is energy fields and suc= h=20 fields can carry information in the form of holographic interference patter= ns=20 then my theory of ABC, explaining how perception works, is a reasonable=20 hypothesis. Especially in the face of the inability of neuroscience, quant= um=20 physics or any other reductive methods of explaining the hard problems of=20 qualia and brain-mind binding to give us any reasonable answers.=20 Perhaps science may one day recognize that the fundamental law of=20 conservation includes "information" and "consciousness"as well as=20 energy-matter -- in one form or another. In any event, there is no such=20 thing as a "completeness" of anything that isn't in some fundamental respec= t,=20 a trinity. Isn't the first separate linear two dimensional structure in th= e=20 universe a triangle? Can anything exist in time without a past, present an= d=20 future? Is there any story to be told that doesn't have a beginning, a=20 middle and an end? Are we not born, grow and die? (At least physically :-)= =20=20 So, cannot we conclude that a human being is nothing more than a=20 consciousness or awareness that "feels" (or experiences) -- who has a mind = to=20 imagine and think with, and a brain-body to interface it with the outer wor= ld=20 and allow it to act and react consciously? Or, might we go a bit further a= nd=20 say that the real nature of each human being is its "awareness," along with= =20 its field of universal memory, and its fields of rational and intuitive min= d=20 (sometimes used and sometimes ignored). Thus, "Man" could very well be "ma= de=20 in the Image of God" -- being a direct reflection of its initially emanated= =20 triple field "Monad" -- as it says in the ancient teachings, and=20 misinterpreted in the Bible to refer only to the physical body. We might=20 then reinterpret the Biblical (Catholic interpretation) Trinity by saying,= =20 the awareness and dual mind is the "Father," the body-brain is the "Mother,= "=20 and the universal awareness and (relatively) infinite knowledge and wisdom= =20 behind it all, is the "Holy Ghost."=20=20 >[Benjamin] > >The statement =E2=80=9Clet there be luminosity=E2=80=9D in Genesis 1 is no= t from a nebulous >consciousness, but from an Intelligent Being who =E2=80=9Cseparated the da= rkness >from the luminosity=E2=80=9D or the dark matter from the luminous matter. = That >=E2=80=9Cspace=E2=80=9D of separation was given a =E2=80=9Ctime=E2=80=9D m= easure called =E2=80=9Cday.=E2=80=9D These are >not random acts of an indefinable mystic consciousness. This concept of a separate, anthropomorphized God that "created" the=20 universe, is a complete distortion of the scientifically sound concepts of= =20 the actual origination of "this" particular cycle of our endless and=20 beginnings universe. Such a personal God concept leads to an infinite=20 regress, when one asks, who or what created him? Such Biblical nonsense ha= s=20 nothing to do with the scientifically logical conception of an impersonal,= =20 eternal universal proto-consciousness and associated energy that periodical= ly=20 appears, grows experientially, and disappears -- to appear again at a highe= r=20 level of conscious experience -- ad infinitum. There is nothing random abou= t=20 the expansion of the initial zero-point spinergy of the primal singularity= =20 into the entire multidimensional universe of mass-energy -- with the initia= l=20 zero-point of universal awareness reflected in zero-point origin of every=20 coenergetic field on both objective and subjective levels of consciousness= =20 and matter. We might thus, substitute the word "consciousness" for the word= =20 "spirit" in the Bible. >[Benjamin]=20 > >In fact the word =E2=80=9Cconsciousness=E2=80=9D is not even ONCE mentione= d or implied >anywhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures which are the foundations of th= e=20 >modern West, and the Orthodox part of the East. The West has done pretty >well WITHOUT the magical consciousness, compared to the REST of the world >steeped in consciousness, which they neither understood nor could define, = so=20 >much so there is a mass exodus of *consciousnesses* from the Rest to the >West. >From a materialistic point of view, you are entirely correct. But, what ha= s=20 that got to do with the "true nature of reality," which includes both=20 consciousness and matter, that we are (sometimes) discussing on these forum= s? Best Regards Leon Maurer From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 09 02:53:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 10:53:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 88624 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 10:53:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 10:53:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 10:53:49 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.158] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ATFK-0001WE-00; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 02:53:47 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 02:50:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <007901c28790$c54d19c0$f0db7ad5@oemcomputer> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 9 2002 Re: Writing and Authorship of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- H P B Dear Friends: permit me to observe that Mr. Leadbeater was not (to my knowledge) of H P B's circle in Avenue Rd., and when she returned from her vacation in France in 1889 with the MSS for the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, it was handed over to the Keightleys, Mead and Annie Besant to read. No mention of Bro. "Hillarion" was hinted at or made, nor could I find any recorded at that time. Mr. Leadbeater has made a number of claims after her death which could not be substantiated. In any case the value of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE lies inherently in the text, and not in any supposed author. As far as we know H P B was that author. Best wishes, Dallas PS I am sure Daniel Caldwell has more on this from the archives. =========================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marina Sisson" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > Dear Jeremy, > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > many thanks, > > Marina. Marina, You, as I, may be interested in the following compliation. Comments on "The Voice of the Silence" by Clara Codd Extract: C.W. Leadbeater told us that quite a number of these precepts were written by the great teacher Aryasanga. They were written in a sort of cryptic language, picture language, that you could read in many different tongues. I wonder if some of them are written in what is called the Senzar, because H.P.B. Says she studied the Senzar when she was in Tibet, and the Senzar is the sacred root of Sanskrit, and it was brought over from Venus by the Great Adepts, six and a half million years ago. I suppose it is a language hardly anyone knows except in certain esoteric schools, but Sanskrit is a derivative from the Senzar, and I expect that is why it is called the Devanagari, God language, Deva language. It is the sacred language in the East, like Latin used to be in the West. She says at the end of the preface, I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of the language and imagery which characterizes the original. C.W. Leadbeater told us that she was helped in doing this by the Master Hilarion, the one who wrote Light on the Path. He helped H.P.B. and it is the most beautiful language. When you remember that H.P.B. didn't know English very well, yet she managed to put it in the most splendid words. The Master must have helped her; she could not have done it by herself. http://www.theosophical.ca/voiceSilenceComments.htm Regards Jeremy Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 09 03:40:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 11:40:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 26847 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 11:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 11:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 11:40:08 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 225785EE36C for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:40:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:35:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, This is just too much. I had to laugh a little while reading the below email from Brian. Brian wrote in the below: "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF REFERENCE. My Sufilight remarks and questions: Well, that is a view. And it is of course allright to a have a view and present it. But you will then have to admit, that YOU today are NOT having a GREAT amount of Wisdom. Do you not agree on that ? So I have to ask where is the solid rock of assurance, we the readers will have to 'build' on - if we want to agree with you ??? Should we all not seek knowledge from those who are wise - or at least seek wisdom ? Or should we listen to the first and best (- i.e. for instance YOU) who just shouts LIARS, IDIOTS etc - and then in reality NOTHING else. The above mesage of yours has as such (in a certain sense) NO Wisdom behind it at all. Were-as some of the Mahatma Letters are talking about things, which if - you - really experienced them your self - would I think make your pretty head spin ! What do you know about the word "wisdom" or the words "true wisdom" ? Have you ever experienced what true wisdom is ? Do you really think, that what we humans ordinarily call "the reality" only contains - intellectual thinking etc. ? If so, I will have to say I certainly disagree - because my daily experiences tells me something else. Now of course true "Wisdom" is knowledge or insight of a kind. Some calls it "Prophetic Gifts". And because of that - the posibility of using it AND also misusing it comes to mind. But think carefully about it. Would it be wise to mis-use true wisdom ? It don't think so ! Because if Wisdom is truly REAL, as I claim it to be, then there must be som reason for its existence. Don't you agree? Brian wrote in the below: "PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM ETC. My Suflight answer: The above text of yours also continues, as far as I can understand it your writing, to put down - the idea of Wisdom Teachings and the existence of "wisdom" as a issue worth dealing with. There are as far as I am concerned no reason to put down the search for WISDOM! But to put down the misuse of Wisdom or something magical Knowledge will be allright. The manner you do it in - just puts down everything also good and true Wisdom. Of course we can agree on the negation "NETI, NETI", as "Not this and Not that" while dealing with the core of TRUTH of true wisdom. But to put wisdom teachings down, which contains this teaching - is according to me to go to far. The students should be allowed to CULL the GOOD they find in each scripture. Blavatsky agrees on that in her book The Key to Theosophy. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE." My Sufilight answer: Yes one might agree with you on the above sentence - if one choses to ignore the existence OR possible existence of WISDOM in the Teachings of H. P. blavatsky and her Masters. But I disagree on that. The search for wisdom is important. To be blinded by fanatic ignorant stances won't help ones stupidity ! The New Testament Gospels comes to my mind: Matt.23 [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! [17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? [19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. [26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. John.9 [39] And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. [40] And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? [41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. I guess Brian also find the MASTER Jesus Christ to be a fony of the Jesuits or the like! Is that true Brian ? from Sufilight with hopefully some words of Wisdom... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:40 PM Subject: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT REMAINS ALSO THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE. THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE. THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle= b9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote:. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Nov 09 03:47:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 11:47:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 74899 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 11:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 11:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 11:47:27 -0000 Received: from host213-122-247-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.247.171] helo=oemcomputer) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18AU5E-0001fO-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:47:25 +0000 Message-ID: <004201c287e5$7e943d60$5dd17ad5@oemcomputer> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:43:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers "(14) Could any other planets besides those known to modern astronomy (I do not mean mere planetoids) be discovered by physical instruments if properly directed? (14) They must be. Not all of the Intra-Mercurial planets, nor yet those in the orbit of Neptune are yet discovered, though they are strongly suspected. We know that such exist and where they exist; and that there are innumerable planets "burnt out" they say, -- in obscuration we say; -- planets in formation and not yet luminous, etc. But then "we know" is of little use to science, when the Spiritualists will not admit our knowledge." Mahatma Letters. If there is a reference in The Secret Doctrine to there being Inter-mercurial planet"s" or inter-neptunian for that matter, I would truly appreciate it. Thanks Jeremy ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 4:19 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." > Netemara: I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian > woman with the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and > no money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not > supposed to happen if you think about it. > > I don't see what you wrote provided any evidence (other then polemics) > that the "Mahatma Letters" contain anything else (more or new) > then the information available to Blavatsky and friends, their normal > human (not sages in the Himalalaya, there is NO evidence Blavatsky ever > was in Tibet) studies in Rosicrucianism, Masonry, spiritism, and a wide > readiing in religion, history, Philosophy and the science of their day ? > I went over this already on this list, but never received an answer. > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/invoccultism.html > > And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/esosecrets.html > > And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr2.html > > Look forward to your detailed response to the above ,and pls include > referrences. > Brian > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > Well said wry1111. > > > > Brian was on my group for a while and I addressed this issue but not > > directly. The message and the books and the outer trappings of > > mysterious masters of a cult one could call: "made in India" suitable > > for export to the West, is NOT what is important. What is important > > is that this movement made a whole in the glamorized view of human > > history and she (TS) did it in a way that it has never been done > > before. That is what makes people mad I suspect. She was NOT > supposed > > to be successful--don't you see? It was not supposed to work. It was > > not supposed to happen. But it was destined to work. It was destined > > to change the world. And dear Brian you can't change that with all > > the capitalized essays in the world!!! > > > > I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian woman > with > > the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and no > > money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not > > supposed to happen if you think about it. > > > > I think it's funny like wry said. I try to roll back the covers, the > > burkas. But many don't think its funny. > > > > Netemara > > > > ************** > > > > -- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > > > Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person > > in many > > > ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you > > could use > > > a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of > > things. > > > They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of > > course, > > > is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will > > > perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how > > you want to > > > live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. > > > > > > As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize > > situations > > > and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave > > situation, > > > both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would > > you not > > > agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to > > address this > > > problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You > > probably > > > do, too. > > > > > > Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you > > are able > > > to help them find something better to replace it with. You think > > you have > > > something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it > > probably > > > is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You > > do not > > > say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your > > belief and > > > then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken > > before he > > > eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT > > MAKES NO > > > SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. > > > > > > I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I > > think it is > > > funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? > The > > point I > > > personally would be interested in making is that it is not > > necessary to > > > look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us > > understands, but > > > we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment > > before I > > > bump into a telephone pole. > > > > > > Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the > > fastest > > > growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to > > provide > > > evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in > > > attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to > > > believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be > > angry at > > > a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being > > sarcastic > > > when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when > > applied to > > > adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you > > and I > > > understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply > > this in > > > my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to > > projects that > > > have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we > > can help > > > many people. Sincerely, Wry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM > > > Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and > > the "staging" of > > > Blavatsky's "Masters." > > > > > > > > > > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > > > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the > ground. > > To > > > > me this is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then > people > > > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, > > as Daniel > > > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > > > > > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including > > that there > > > > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any > > of the > > > > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > > > > > > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first > > didn`t feel > > > > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place > > of > > > > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > > > > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly > > be too > > > > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a > while > > > > they obeyed him. > > > > > > > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own > > fictitiousness in > > > > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > > > > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the > > Masters > > > > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > > > > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding > > accusations of > > > > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH > > to Sinnet, > > > > Letter No. 24B) > > > > > > > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, > > Hume > > > > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > > > > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand > of > > > > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding > > as usual. > > > > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the > > piano > > > > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, > > but a very > > > > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes > > later, > > > > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having > opened the > > > > letter and read it. > > > > > > > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From msisson@zaz.com.br Sat Nov 09 04:07:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:07:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 97431 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:07:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO itaqui.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.19) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:07:28 -0000 Received: from bertioga.terra.com.br (bertioga.terra.com.br [200.176.3.77]) by itaqui.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7118B3BC15F for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:07:27 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by bertioga.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64DF3F8051 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:07:26 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <000901c287e8$a7c28220$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> <001701c2872e$b56a8ea0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <004d01c28787$344a1440$37f07ad5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice Of The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:08:01 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 Ok. Thanks. Marina -----Mensagem Original----- De: "Jeremy Condick" Para: Enviada em: Sexta-feira, 8 de Novembro de 2002 22:30 Assunto: Re: Theos-World Voice Of The Silence > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marina Sisson" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > > > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > > > Dear Jeremy, > > > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master > > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > > > many thanks, > > > > Marina > > Not immediatly Marina, If I find it again I will get back to you ok. > > Jeremy > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 09 04:12:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 66734 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-38.look.ca ([216.154.45.133] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18AUTo-0002bF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3DCCFBEC.87024EBB@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 07:13:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> Dallas, I'm still waiting for it to come out in paperback. do you happen to know if any of it is available on line? Mauri From msisson@zaz.com.br Sat Nov 09 04:14:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:14:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 50983 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO paiol.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:14:01 -0000 Received: from penha.terra.com.br (penha.terra.com.br [200.176.3.43]) by paiol.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF2A7C17B for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:14:00 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by penha.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C51B681C6 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:14:00 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002a01c287e9$92092dc0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <00d601c28510$7efee480$bec601d5@oemcomputer> <000701c2866b$84c1a0e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <00ae01c286a4$0dd02ae0$634b01d5@oemcomputer> <001701c2872e$b56a8ea0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <007901c28790$c54d19c0$f0db7ad5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:14:35 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 Hi Jeremy, That helps. Thanks. Marina -----Mensagem Original----- De: "Jeremy Condick" Para: Enviada em: Sexta-feira, 8 de Novembro de 2002 23:38 Assunto: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marina Sisson" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > > > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > > > Dear Jeremy, > > > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about Master > > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > > > many thanks, > > > > Marina. > > Marina, > You, as I, may be interested in the following compliation. > > Comments on "The Voice of the Silence" > > by Clara Codd > Extract: > C.W. Leadbeater told us that quite a number of these precepts were written > by the great teacher Aryasanga. They were written in a sort of cryptic > language, picture language, that you could read in many different tongues. I > wonder if some of them are written in what is called the Senzar, because > H.P.B. Says she studied the Senzar when she was in Tibet, and the Senzar is > the sacred root of Sanskrit, and it was brought over from Venus by the Great > Adepts, six and a half million years ago. I suppose it is a language hardly > anyone knows except in certain esoteric schools, but Sanskrit is a > derivative from the Senzar, and I expect that is why it is called the > Devanagari, God language, Deva language. It is the sacred language in the > East, like Latin used to be in the West. She says at the end of the preface, > I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of the language and > imagery which characterizes the original. C.W. Leadbeater told us that she > was helped in doing this by the Master Hilarion, the one who wrote Light on > the Path. He helped H.P.B. and it is the most beautiful language. When you > remember that H.P.B. didn't know English very well, yet she managed to put > it in the most splendid words. The Master must have helped her; she could > not have done it by herself. > http://www.theosophical.ca/voiceSilenceComments.htm > > Regards > Jeremy > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 09 04:16:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:16:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 27618 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:16:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:16:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:16:48 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.158] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AUXa-0004wA-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:16:43 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- Chapter 3 -- THE EARTH CHAIN -- 7 Principles and "Gloges"-- in the "OCEAN" Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:12:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 8 2002 Dear Friend: You ask: I have a question concerning the question for the Ocean. ( And to Q. p. 56) Would the answer to this question explain why people with schizophrenia have a hard time understanding what is real and what is not? --- Question from Answers to the Ocean --- p. 56 Q. Can Man be conscious on more than one plane at a time? A. He cannot be fully conscious on more than one plane at a time; attention divided between two planes would give a mixed and divided perception of both =============== I believe there is a problem in exactly equation that which Theosophy teaches with what modern psychology defines. Schizophrenia for instance is in Modern definitions called "a type of psychosis which cause loss of contact with one's environment" and a "disintegration of the personality." Theosophy declares that each individual is a Monad, and the Monad ( Atma-Buddhi 0r SPIRIT and Wisdom) is an immortal being which uses the "personality" as a basis for living in this Earth environment when awake. Wit the MONAD is associated the HIGHER MIND MANAS . This Higher Mind, which is also immortal and qualified with embodied VIRTUE, casts a "shadow," so to speak on the new "personality" generated at every reincarnation. And it creates thereon the LOWER MANAS or the Mind involved in desires ( Kama-Manas). Its Consciousness is ONE, teaches Theosophy, and it pierces up and down the seven planes of being ( the "principles" of Man and nature -- which are 7-fold) and serves to unite the memory of all the experiences on the various planes. However it takes a great deal of training of the lower mind and the psychic nature of the "personality" to retain the ability to be conscious, and actively remember the experiences and correlations of two planes at once. Impossible for the average man, and extremely rare for those who are sensitive to the astral and the psychic reams. These are closes to the physical pane of waking consciousness. The psychosis mentioned then is of the "personality" and of the Lower Mind. Its definitions are many and its amelioration is a matter of understanding and then of control of the Lower by the Higher Mind. Generally a deep involvement in some emotional trauma causes this condition. This has to be identified and then examined impersonally. The concept that nothing is ever "lost." and of Reincarnation of the Immortal Monad and Ego -- which is the Real Man of Mind complete , ought to help as points of stability. The "personality" is (in Theosophy) viewed as the "mask" of the INDIVIDUALITY ( the ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) during any one life-time. It is also called the "form with a name." [nama-rupa] Let me place here a quotation or so from The SECRET DOCTRINE and elsewhere on the subject of man's consciousness "The ordinary man has no experience of any state of consciousness other than that to which the physical senses link him. Men dream; they sleep the profound sleep which is too deep for dreams to impress the physical brain; and in these states there must still be consciousness. How, then, while these mysteries remain unexplored, can we hope to speculate with profit on the nature of globes which, in the economy of nature, must needs belong to states of consciousness other and quite different from any which man experiences here?" (S D II 701) "A man who regards himself as mentally sane, and is so regarded by his neighbours, calls the visions of an insane brother -- whose hallucinations make the victim either happy or supremely wretched, as the case may be -- illusions and fancies likewise. But, where is that madman for whom the hideous shadows in his deranged mind, his illusions, are not, for the time being, as actual and as real as the things which his physician or keeper may see?" (S D I 295-6) "Everything is relative in this Universe, everything is an illusion. But the experience of any plane is an actuality for the percipient being, whose consciousness is on that plane; though the said experience, regarded from the purely metaphysical standpoint, may be conceived to have no objective reality. "But it is not against metaphysicians, but against physicists and materialists that Esoteric teachings have to fight, and for these Vital Force, Light, Sound, Electricity, even to the objectively pulling force of magnetism, have no objective being, and are said to exist merely as "modes of motion," "sensations and affections of matter." (S D I 295-6) "....no single atom in the entire Kosmos is without life and consciousness, how much more then its mighty globes? -- though they remain sealed books to us men who can hardly enter even into the consciousness of the forms of life nearest us? We do not know ourselves, then how can we, if we have never been trained to it and initiated, fancy that we can penetrate the consciousness of the smallest of the animals around us?" (S D I 702 Footnote) "To "Spirit" is referable every manifestation of consciousness, reflective or direct, and of unconscious purposiveness (to adopt a modern expression used in Western philosophy, so-called) as evidenced in the Vital Principle, and Nature's submission to the majestic sequence of immutable law. "Matter" must be regarded as objectivity in its purest abstraction -- the self-existing basis whose septenary manvantaric differentiations constitute the objective reality underlying the phenomena of each phase of conscious existence." (S D I 328) =================== These are offered as some principles. One ought to inquire what leads to schizophrenia . It is an abnormal condition, when the inner ONE CONSCIOUSNESS acting through the personality believes itself to be one or another of these, or some modification other than the normal . Where does it acquire the delusion of separateness? In fact is it the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is so acting? or, is it the personality, in its selfishness and defending its existence, assume the mask of various other types of personalities and wears them more or less effectively. I hope this may prove to be of some help. Best wishes, Dallas P S The following is an outline of theosophical teachings about the realm of the Psychic It may prove useful. ============================= The field of psychic forces, phenomena, and dynamics is a vast one. Such phenomena are seen and the forces exhibited every day in all lands, Are there psychic forces, laws, and powers? If there are, then there must be the phenomena. And, then in man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man. This has long been recognized in the East, where the writer has seen exhibitions of such powers which would upset the theories of many a Western man of science. And in the West the same phenomena have been repeated for the writer, so that he knows of his own knowledge that every man of every race has the same powers potentially. Levitation of the body in apparent defiance of gravitation is a thing to be done with ease when the process is completely mastered. It contravenes no law. Gravitation is only half of a law. The Oriental sage admits gravity, if one wishes to adopt the term; but the real term is attraction, the other half of the law being expressed by the word repulsion, and both being governed by the great laws of electrical force. Weight and stability depend on polarity, and when the polarity of an object is altered in respect to the earth immediately underneath it, then the object may rise. But as mere objects are devoid of the consciousness found in man, they cannot rise without certain other aids. The human body, however, will rise in the air unsupported, like a bird, when its polarity is thus changed. A third great law which enters into many of the phenomena of the East and West is that of Cohesion. The power of Cohesion is a distinct power of itself, and not a result as is supposed. This law and its action must be known if certain phenomena are to be brought about, as, for instance, what the writer has seen, the passing of one solid iron ring through another, or a stone through a solid wall. Hence another force is used which can only be called dispersion. Cohesion is the determinating force, for, the moment the dispersing force is withdrawn, the cohesive force restores the particles to their original position. Following this out the Adept in such great dynamics is able to disperse the atoms of an object -- excluding always the human body -- to such a distance from each other as to render the object invisible, and then can send them along a current formed in the ether to any distance on the earth. At the desired point the dispersing force is withdrawn, when immediately cohesion reasserts itself and the object reappears intact. But the lay mind infested by the materialism of the day wonders how all these manipulations are possible, seeing that no instruments are spoken of. The instruments are in the body and brain of man. In the view of the Lodge "the human brain is an exhaustless generator of force," and a complete knowledge of the inner chemical and dynamic laws of Nature, together with a trained mind, give the possessor the power to operate the laws to which I have referred. This will be man's possession in the future, and would be his today were it not for blind dogmatism, selfishness, and materialistic unbelief. Using the same powers, the trained Adept can produce before the eye, objective to the touch, material which was not visible before, and in any desired shape. This would be called creation by the vulgar, but it is simply evolution in your very presence. Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, and what the Adept does is to select any desired form, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The object so made will fade away unless certain other processes are resorted to which need not be here described, but if these processes are used the object will remain permanently. And if it is desired to make visible a message on paper or other surface, the same laws and powers are used. The distinct -- photographically and sharply definite -- image of every line of every letter or picture is formed in the mind, and then out of the air is drawn the pigment to fall within the limits laid down by the brain, "the exhaustless generator of force and form." All these things the writer has seen done in the way described, and not by any hired or irresponsible medium, and he knows whereof he speaks. This, then, naturally leads to the proposition that the human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind. In the ordinary average human person it has not enough training or force to be more than a sort of dream, but it may be trained. When trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop. Arrived at that stage it makes a matrix in the Astral substance through which effects objectively will flow. It is the greatest power, after Will, in the human assemblage of complicated instruments. The modern Western definition of Imagination is incomplete and wide of the mark. It is chiefly used to designate fancy or misconception and at all times stands for unreality. It is impossible to get another term as good because one of the powers of the trained Imagination is that of making an image. The word is derived from those signifying the formation or reflection of an image. This faculty used, or rather suffered to act, in an unregulated mode has given the West no other idea than that covered by "fancy." So far as that goes it is right but it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached causes the Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form which may be then used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold of sand for the molten iron. It is therefore the King faculty, inasmuch as the Will cannot do its work if the Imagination be at all weak or untrained. For instance, if the person desiring to precipitate from the air wavers in the least with the image made in the Astral substance, the pigment will fall upon the paper in a correspondingly wavering and diffused manner. To communicate with another mind at any distance the Adept attunes all the molecules of the brain and all the thoughts of the mind so as to vibrate in unison with the mind to be affected, and that other mind and brain have also to be either voluntarily thrown into the same unison or fall into it voluntarily. So though the Adept be at Bombay and his friend in New York, the distance is no obstacle, as the inner senses are not dependent on an ear, but may feel and see the thoughts and images in the mind of the other person. And when it is desired to look into the mind and catch the thoughts of another and the pictures all around him of all he has thought and looked at, the Adept's inner sight and hearing are directed to the mind to be seen, when at once all is visible. But, as said before, only a rogue would do this, and the Adepts do not do it except in strictly authorized cases. The modern man sees no misdemeanor in looking into the secrets of another by means of this power, but the Adepts say it is an invasion of the rights of the other person. No man has the right, even when he has the power in his hand, to enter into the mind of another and pick out its secrets. This is the law of the Lodge to all who seek, and if one sees that he is about to discover the secrets of another he must at once withdraw and proceed no further. If he proceeds his power is taken from him in the case of a disciple; in the case of any other person he must take the consequence of this sort of burglary. For Nature has her laws and her policemen, and if we commit felonies in the Astral world the great Law and the guardians of it, for which no bribery is possible, will execute the penalty, no matter how long we wait, even if it be for ten thousand years. Here is another safeguard for ethics and morals. But until men admit the system of philosophy put forward in this book, they will not deem it wrong to commit felonies in fields where their weak human law has no effect, but at the same time by thus refusing the philosophy they will put off the day when all may have these great powers for the use of all. Among phenomena useful to notice are those consisting of the moving of objects without physical contact. This may be done, and in more than one way. The first is to extrude from the physical body the Astral hand and arm, and with those grasp the object to be moved. This may be accomplished at a distance of as much as ten feet from the person. I do not go into argument on this, only referring to the properties of the Astral substance and members. This will serve to some extent to explain several of the phenomena of mediums. In nearly all cases of such apportation the feat is accomplished by thus using the unseen but material Astral hand. The second method is to use the elementals of which I have spoken. They have the power when directed by the inner man to carry objects by changing the polarity, and then we see, as with the fakirs of India and some mediums in America, small objects moving apparently unsupported. These elemental entities are used when things are brought from longer distances than the length to which the Astral members may be stretched. It is no argument against this that mediums do not know they do so. They rarely if ever know anything about how they accomplish any feat, and their ignorance of the law is no proof of its non-existence. Those students who have seen the forces work from the inside will need no argument on this. Clairvoyance, clairaudience, and second-sight are all related very closely. Every exercise of any one of them draws in at the same time both of the others. They are but variations of one power. Sound is one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Astral sphere, and as light goes with sound, sight obtains simultaneously with hearing. To see an image with the Astral senses means that at the same time there is a sound, and to hear the latter infers the presence of a related image in Astral substance. It is perfectly well known to the true student of occultism that every sound produces instantaneously an image, and this, so long known in the Orient, has lately been demonstrated in the West in the production to the eye of sound pictures on a stretched tympanum. This part of the subject can be gone into very much further with the aid of occultism, but as it is a dangerous one in the present state of society I refrain at this point. In the Astral Light are pictures of all things whatsoever that happened to any person, and as well also pictures of those events to come the causes for which are sufficiently well marked and made. If the causes are yet indefinite, so will be the images of the future. But for the mass of events for several years to come all the producing and efficient causes are always laid down with enough definiteness to permit the seer to see them in advance as if present. By means of these pictures, seen with the inner senses, all clairvoyants exercise their strange faculty. Yet it is a faculty common to all men, though in the majority but slightly developed; but occultism asserts that were it not for the germ of this power slightly active in every one no man could convey to another any idea whatsoever. In clairvoyance the pictures in the Astral Light pass before the inner vision and are reflected into the physical eye from within. They then appear objectively to the seer. If they are of past events or those to come, the picture only is seen; if of events actually then occurring, the scene is perceived through the Astral Light by the inner sense. The distinguishing difference between ordinary and clairvoyant vision is, then, that in clairvoyance with waking sight the vibration is communicated to the brain first, from which it is transmitted to the physical eye, where it sets up an image upon the retina, just as the revolving cylinder of the phonograph causes the mouthpiece to vibrate exactly as the voice had vibrated when thrown into the receiver. In ordinary eye vision the vibrations are given to the eye first and then transmitted to the brain. Images and sounds are both caused by vibrations, and hence any sound once made is preserved in the Astral Light from whence the inner sense can take it and from within transmit it to the brain, from which it reaches the physical ear. So in clairaudience at a distance the hearer does not hear with the ear, but with the center of hearing in the Astral body. Second-sight is a combination of clairaudience and clairvoyance or not, just as the particular case is, and the frequency with which future events are seen by the second-sight seer adds an element of prophecy. The highest order of clairvoyance -- that of spiritual vision -- is very rare. The usual clairvoyant deals only with the ordinary aspects and strata of the Astral matter. Spiritual sight comes only to those who are pure, devoted, and firm. It may be attained by special development of the particular organ in the body through which alone such sight is possible, and only after discipline, long training, and the highest altruism. All other clairvoyance is transitory, inadequate, and fragmentary, dealing, as it does, only with matter and illusion. Its fragmentary and inadequate character results from the fact that hardly any clairvoyant has the power to see into more than one of the lower grades of Astral substance at any one time. The pure-minded and the brave can deal with the future and the present far better than any clairvoyant. But as the existence of these two powers proves the presence in us of the inner senses and of the necessary medium -- the Astral Light, they have, as such human faculties, an important bearing upon the claims made by the so-called "spirits" of the seance room. Dreams are sometimes the result of brain action automatically proceeding, and are also produced by the transmission into the brain by the real inner person of those scenes or ideas high or low which that real person has seen while the body slept. They are then strained into the brain as if floating on the soul as it sinks into the body. These dreams may be of use, but generally the resumption of bodily activity destroys the meaning, perverts the image, and reduces all to confusion. But the great fact of all dreaming is that some one perceives and feels therein, and this is one of the arguments for the inner person's existence. In sleep the inner man communes with higher intelligences, and sometimes succeeds in impressing the brain with what is gained, either a high idea or a prophetic vision, or else fails in consequence of the resistance of brain fiber. The karma of the person also determines the meaning of a dream, for a king may dream that which relates to his kingdom, while the same thing dreamed by a citizen relates to nothing of temporal consequence. But, as said by Job: "In dreams and visions of the night man is instructed." Apparitions and doubles are of two general classes. The one, astral shells or images from the astral world, either actually visible to the eye or the result of vibration within thrown out to the eye and thus making the person think he sees an objective form without. The other, the astral body of living persons and carrying full consciousness or only partially so endowed. But that apparitions have been seen there is no doubt. Apparitions of those just dead may be either pictures made objective as described, or the Astral Body -- called Kama Rupa at this stage -- of the deceased. And as the dying thoughts and forces released from the body are very strong, we have more accounts of such apparitions than of any other class. The Adept may send out his apparition, which, however, is called by another name, as it consists of his conscious and trained astral body endowed with all his intelligence and not wholly detached from his physical frame. Theosophy does not deny nor ignore the physical laws discovered by science. It admits all such as are proven, but it asserts the existence of others which modify the action of those we ordinarily know. Behind all the visible phenomena is the occult cosmos with its ideal machinery; that occult cosmos can only be fully understood by means of the inner senses which pertain to it; those senses will not be easily developed if their existence is denied. Brain and mind acting together have the power to evolve forms, first as astral ones in astral substance, and later as visible ones by accretions of the matter on this plane. Objectivity depends largely on perception, and perception may be affected by inner stimuli. Hence a witness may either see an object which actually exists as such without, or may be made to see one by internal stimulus. This gives us three modes of sight: (a) with the eye by means of light from an object, (b) with the inner senses by means of the Astral Light, and (c) by stimulus from within which causes the eye to report to the brain, thus throwing the inner image without. The phenomena of the other senses may be tabulated in the same manner. The Astral substance being the register of all thoughts, sounds, pictures, and other vibrations, and the inner man being a complete person able to act with or without co-ordination with the physical, all the phenomena of hypnotism, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, and the rest of those which are not consciously performed may be explained. In the Astral substance are all sounds and pictures, and in the Astral man remain impressions of every event, however remote or insignificant; these acting together produce the phenomena which seem so strange to those who deny or are unaware of the postulates of occultism. But to explain the phenomena performed by Adepts, Fakirs, Yogees, and all trained occultists, one has to understand the occult laws of chemistry, of mind, of force, and of matter. ============================= -----Original Message----- From: Richard P Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 10:32 PM To Subject: RE: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS -- Chapter 3 -- THE EARTH CHAIN -- 7 Principles and "Globes"-- in the "OCEAN" Hello one and all; I have a question concerning the question for the Ocean. Would the answer to this question explain why people with schizophrenia have a hard time understanding what is real and what is not? --- Question from Ocean --- Q. Can Man be conscious on more than one plane at a time? A. He cannot be fully conscious on more than one plane at a time; attention divided between two planes would give a mixed and divided perception of both. Thank you. Richard From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 09 04:27:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:27:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 59758 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:27:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:27:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:27:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 12:27:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:27:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9047 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, I don't know what this has to do with wisdom. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi Brian and all of you, > > This is just too much. I had to laugh a little while reading the below email > from Brian. > > Brian wrote in the below: > "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > REFERENCE. > > My Sufilight remarks and questions: > Well, that is a view. And it is of course allright to a have a view and > present it. > But you will then have to admit, that YOU today are NOT having a GREAT > amount of Wisdom. > Do you not agree on that ? > So I have to ask where is the solid rock of assurance, we the readers will > have to 'build' on - if we want to agree with you ??? > > Should we all not seek knowledge from those who are wise - or at least seek > wisdom ? > Or should we listen to the first and best (- i.e. for instance YOU) who just > shouts LIARS, IDIOTS etc - and then in reality NOTHING else. > The above mesage of yours has as such (in a certain sense) NO Wisdom behind > it at all. Were-as some of the Mahatma Letters are talking about things, > which if - you - really experienced them your self - would I think make your > pretty head spin ! > What do you know about the word "wisdom" or the words "true wisdom" ? Have > you ever experienced what true wisdom is ? Do you really think, that what we > humans ordinarily call "the reality" only contains - intellectual thinking > etc. ? > If so, I will have to say I certainly disagree - because my daily > experiences tells me something else. > > Now of course true "Wisdom" is knowledge or insight of a kind. Some calls > it "Prophetic Gifts". > And because of that - the posibility of using it AND also misusing it comes > to mind. But think carefully about it. > Would it be wise to mis-use true wisdom ? It don't think so ! > Because if Wisdom is truly REAL, as I claim it to be, then there must be som > reason for its existence. Don't you agree? > > > Brian wrote in the below: > > "PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM > ETC. > > My Suflight answer: > The above text of yours also continues, as far as I can understand it your > writing, to put down - the idea of Wisdom Teachings and the existence of > "wisdom" as a issue worth dealing with. There are as far as I am concerned > no reason to put down the search for WISDOM! > But to put down the misuse of Wisdom or something magical Knowledge will be > allright. The manner you do it in - just puts down everything also good and > true Wisdom. > > Of course we can agree on the negation "NETI, NETI", as "Not this and Not > that" while dealing with the core of > TRUTH of true wisdom. But to put wisdom teachings down, which contains this > teaching - is according to me to go to far. > The students should be allowed to CULL the GOOD they find in each scripture. > Blavatsky agrees on that in her book The Key to Theosophy. > > > AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE." > > My Sufilight answer: > Yes one might agree with you on the above sentence - if one choses to ignore > the existence OR possible existence of WISDOM in the Teachings of H. P. > blavatsky and her Masters. But I disagree on that. The search for wisdom is > important. > To be blinded by fanatic ignorant stances won't help ones stupidity ! > The New Testament Gospels comes to my mind: > Matt.23 > [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the > temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, > he is a debtor! > [17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple > that sanctifieth the gold? > [19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that > sanctifieth the gift? > [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. > [26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and > platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. > > John.9 > [39] And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which > see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. > [40] And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and > said unto him, Are we blind also? > [41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now > ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. > > I guess Brian also find the MASTER Jesus Christ to be a fony of the Jesuits > or the like! > Is that true Brian ? > > from > Sufilight with hopefully some words of Wisdom... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:40 PM > Subject: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA > LETTERS IS:. > > > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT > REMAINS ALSO > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE. > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. > > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE. > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those of > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" > > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle= > b9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote:. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 09 04:31:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 12:31:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 77035 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 12:31:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 12:31:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 12:31:13 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.158] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AUlc-0006YS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:31:13 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:27:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3DCCFBEC.87024EBB@idirect.ca> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 I doubt if it will ever come out in paper back it is to scholarly and is about 2000 pages long. Ask for it at a library. Dal -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 4:14 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY Dallas wrote: <> Dallas, I'm still waiting for it to come out in paperback. do you happen to know if any of it is available on line? Mauri Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Nov 09 05:04:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 13:04:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 97817 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 13:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 13:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rhenium) (194.73.73.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 13:04:45 -0000 Received: from host213-122-247-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.247.171] helo=oemcomputer) by rhenium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18AVI3-0001Lp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 13:04:44 +0000 Message-ID: <007801c287f0$4bd75820$5dd17ad5@oemcomputer> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:02:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 10:50 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence > Nov 9 2002 > > Re: Writing and Authorship of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- H P B > > Dear Friends: > > permit me to observe that Mr. Leadbeater was not (to my knowledge) of > H P B's circle in Avenue Rd., and when she returned from her vacation > in France in 1889 with the MSS for the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, it was > handed over to the Keightleys, Mead and Annie Besant to read. No > mention of Bro. "Hillarion" was hinted at or made, nor could I find > any recorded at that time. > > Mr. Leadbeater has made a number of claims after her death which could > not be substantiated. > > In any case the value of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE lies inherently in > the text, and not in any supposed author. As far as we know H P B > was that author. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas Having studied the Voice Of The Silence I have concluded that there are similarities to other works of the Master Hilarion. Whether or not these works are accepted by students is another matter. This is however only a personal observation and I thank you as always for your comments Dallas. As you say, the true value is in the text itself. Best wishes Jeremy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marina Sisson" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:56 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Voice In The Silence > > > > > Thank you Marina, yes I have also read similar > > > > > > Dear Jeremy, > > > > Do you remember the adress where you read the reference about > Master > > Hillarion's help on The Voice of the Silence? > > > > many thanks, > > > > Marina. > > Marina, > You, as I, may be interested in the following compliation. > > Comments on "The Voice of the Silence" > > by Clara Codd > > > Extract: > C.W. Leadbeater told us that quite a number of these precepts were > written > by the great teacher Aryasanga. They were written in a sort of cryptic > language, picture language, that you could read in many different > tongues. I > wonder if some of them are written in what is called the Senzar, > because > H.P.B. Says she studied the Senzar when she was in Tibet, and the > Senzar is > the sacred root of Sanskrit, and it was brought over from Venus by the > Great > Adepts, six and a half million years ago. I suppose it is a language > hardly > anyone knows except in certain esoteric schools, but Sanskrit is a > derivative from the Senzar, and I expect that is why it is called the > Devanagari, God language, Deva language. It is the sacred language in > the > East, like Latin used to be in the West. She says at the end of the > preface, > I have done my best to preserve the poetical beauty of the language > and > imagery which characterizes the original. C.W. Leadbeater told us that > she > was helped in doing this by the Master Hilarion, the one who wrote > Light on > the Path. He helped H.P.B. and it is the most beautiful language. When > you > remember that H.P.B. didn't know English very well, yet she managed to > put > it in the most splendid words. The Master must have helped her; she > could > not have done it by herself. > http://www.theosophical.ca/voiceSilenceComments.htm > > Regards > Jeremy > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Nov 09 05:19:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 13:19:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 5319 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 13:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 13:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 13:19:46 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.83.23546338 (3988) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:19:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <83.23546338.2afe6563@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:19:31 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Hello, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, WELCOME TO THEOS WORLD. IT SEEMS IGNORANCE IS OUR (HUMANITIES) GREATEST ENEMY. THE GREATEST GIFT CAN BE POISON. MEDICAL PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY POISONS IN THAT SO MANY CURES= =20 HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE DISCOVERIES OF THE ROOT OF EACH POISON THEREBY=20 EFFECTING A CURE. FOR EXAMPLE, IT SEEMS THAT IODINE TAKEN INTERNALLY CAN DO GREAT DAMAGE YET= =20 WHEN APPLIED TO AN EXTERIOR CUT OR BRUISE CAN AID IN A HEALTHY RECOVERY AN= D=20 BE A BLESSING. I HOPE WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY RECOVERY AND MANY=20 BLESSINGS. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D In a message dated 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 bhakti.eohn@verizon.net writes: > Subj: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > Date: 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > Reply-to: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20=20 >=20=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami=20 > Subject: MY POST TO THEOS-TALK EGROUP >=20=20 >=20=20 > GREETINGS DEAR FELLOW RESPECTERS OF TRUTH AND VIRTUE,=20 >=20=20 > PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESPECTFUL OBEISANCES. >=20=20 > MY NAME IS BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AND I AM A SANNYASI AND SHIKSHA=20 > (INSTRUCTING) MASTER IN THE ANCIENT AND VENERABLE BRAHMA-MADHVA- > GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. I HAVE ALSO HAD EXTENSIVE EXPERIANCE=20 > WITH SHAIVA, SHAKTI, BUDDHIST AND OTHER TRADITIONS. I HAVE BEEN=20 > INVOLVED IN COMPARATIVE RELIGION STUDIES AND INTERFAITH MINISTRIES=20 > FOR 35 YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN DOING POST-GRADUATE LEVEL QUALITY=20 > INTERDISCIPLINARY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF RELIGION FOR AT LEAST 25=20 > OF THOSE YEARS. I SUCCESSFULLY DELIVERED THE ORAL PRESENTATION OF MY=20 > TWO YEAR MASTER'S DEGREE THESIS, BUT NEVER PUBLISHED MY THESIS OR=20 > RECEIVED MY DEGREE, BECAUSE I HAD TO GO INTO A NURSING HOME ON A=20 > RESPIRATOR, DUE TO POST-POLIO SYNDROME BREATHING MUSCLE PARALYSIS,=20 > BEFORE I COULD FINISH MY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT.=20=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > AT PRESENT I AM BED-RIDDEN MOST OF THE TIME. MY COMPUTER IS=20 > INSTALLED OVER MY BED, AND I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, BECAUSE THESE ARE WHAT=20 > ARE EASIEST FOR ME TO SEE WHEN I AM UNABLE TO SIT UP. MANY COMPUTER=20 > USERS HAVE DIFFICULTY SEEING THEIR MONITORS. WHEN PERSONS SUCH AS=20 > MYSELF USE ALL CAPS, PLEASE DON'T ALSWAYS ASSUME THAT IT IS BECAUSE=20 > WE ARE RUDE AND SHOUTING. IT IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT A REQUIRED=20 > AUSTERITY.=20=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > WITH MY PERMISSION, BRIAN HAS EXCERPTED AND POSTED SOME OF MY PRIVATE=20 > LETTERS TO THIS FORUM. BRIAN HAS NOT BEEN SHOUTING AT ANYONE. I HAVE=20 > NOT BEEN POSTING MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN COMBATING=20 > RACIST ARYANISTS GLOBALLY, AND AS A RESULT HAVE RECEIVED NUMEROUS=20 > DEATH THREATS AND ACTUAL ATTACKS FROM THEM. SO I NO LONGER LIKE TO=20 > EXPOSE MYSELF TO ARYANIST FANATICISM OF ANY KIND, ANY MORE THAN=20 > NECCESSARY. THUS, BRIAN WAS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY AS A COURTESY FOR=20 > ME.=20 >=20=20 > EVEN THOUGH I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE VIOLENT RACISTS, OF THE KIND=20 > THAT I HAVE BEEN COMBATING, IT SEEMS PROBABLE TO ME THAT YOU DON'T=20 > REALIZE HOW ARYOSOPHISM IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE THOUGHT SYSTEMS OF THE=20 > RACIST GROUPS I HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IN MY WORK. I HAVE EXPERIANCED=20 > THE WORST OF THE OUT-COMES OF ARYOSOPHISM, BECAUSE IN MY WORK I HAVE=20 > COMBATED THE WORST KIND OF RACIST FANATICS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. BECAUSE=20 > OF THIS, I GENERALLY TO NOT LIKE TO READ T SOCIETY ATTEMPTS TO DENY=20 > THE INFLUENCE OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM ON GLOBAL HISTORY. WHETHER=20 > THEY ARE HINDU, JAPANESE, EUROPEAN, SRI LANKAN, AMERICAN OR OTHER=20 > ARYANIST RACISTS, THEY ARE TIED TOGETHER BY THE SAME GENERAL BELIEF- > SYSTEMS, WITH ELEMENTS OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM IN THEM.=20 >=20=20 > MY OPINION IS THAT HPB HAD A BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE TOWARDS=20 > BLACKS, AND WAS ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-CATHOLIC. SHE DID NOT=20 > ANTICIPATE OR INTEND THAT HER SCIENTISTIC ROOT-RACES IDEAS WOULD END-=20 > UP FORMING THE BEDROCK OF SOME VERY MALEVOLENT THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. NOT=20 > WANTING TO GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH THEOSOPHISTS ABOUT THE FACT OF=20 > HER RACIST INFLUENCE, I HAVE NOT POSTED TO ANY THEOSOPHICAL SITES.=20=20 > MY PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE WITH BRIAN (AND IT IS PROPER TO ADDRESS A=20 > PERSON AS THEY WISH), HAS NOT BEEN MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND ANY=20 > INDIVIDUAL THEOSOPHISTS, BUT RATHER TO EXPRESS MY THINKING ON THE=20 > MAJOR ISSUES THEMSELVES.=20 >=20=20 > SINCE I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS FORUM, AND DON'T WANT BRIAN TO=20 > BE ERRONEOUSLY ACCUSED OF SHOUTING IN CAPS AT YOU ALL, I AM=20 > INTRODUCING MYSELF. I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS AND FRIENDS WRITING=20 > TO ME THAT I OWE LETTERS TO, AND MANY OTHER PRESSING DUTIES TO ATTEND=20 > TO, SO I CANNOT, WITH MY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS, GET INTO ANY HEATED=20 > EXCHANGES ON THIS FORUM. STILL,I WILL TRY TO WRITE SOMETHING=20 > REGARDING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS FOR POSTING HERE=20 > SOON.=20=20 >=20=20 > BEST WISHES, >=20=20 > HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA >=20=20 > BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA OF VAISHNAVISM >=20=20 > INTERFAITH COMMITTEE ORGANIZER, WORLD VAISHNAVA ORGANIZATION,=20 > VRINDAVANA INDIA.=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Dear Brian/Brigitte, > >=20 > > If you want many people to continue reading your messages, I would=20 > > suggest that you do NOT use all caps. Using all caps makes it=20 > > difficult for most people to read the text. > >=20 > > What would Paul Johnson say if he knew what you were doing! :) > >=20 > > Daniel > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" =20 > wrote: > > > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE=20 > > > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE=20 > > > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO=20 > > > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES THE=20 > > > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND=20 > > > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS=20 > > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT=20 > > > REMAINS ALSO > > > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT=20 > > > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING.=20=20 > > > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE=20 > > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS=20 > > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE=20 > > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF=20 > > > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > > > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR=20 > > > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > > > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE=20 > > > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT=20 > > > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE=20 > > > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN=20 > > > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM=20 > > > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE=20 > > > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > > > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.=20=20=20 > > > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.=20 > > >=20=20 > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES=20 > > > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.=20=20 > > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. > > >=20 > > > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED THAT=20 > > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE.=20=20 > > > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT=20 > > > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more=20 > > > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not=20 > been=20 > > dealt=20 > > > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma=20 > > > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not=20 > > those of=20 > > > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" > > >=20 > > > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO=20 > > > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > > > = =20 > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=3D > > > b9 > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > wrote:=E2=80=A6 >=20=20 >=20=20 >=20=20=20 >=20=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms= /=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 >=20=20 > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: groups.yahoo.com> > Received: from rly-xk05.mx.aol.com (rly-xk05.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.42= ])=20 > by air-xk01.mail.aol.com (v89.12) with ESMTP id MAILINXK11-1108230721; Fr= i,=20 > 08 Nov 2002 23:07:21 1900 > Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com=20 [66.218.66.79])=20 > by rly-xk05.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXK52-1108230704;= =20 Fri, > 08 Nov 2002 23:07:04 1900 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2248521-8521-1036814805-Nisk98114=3Daol.com@ret= urns. > groups.yahoo.com > Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 N= ov=20 > 2002 04:06:45 -0000 > X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net > X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > Received: (qmail 68834 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) > by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) > by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 N= ov=20 > 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Message-ID: > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster > From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.148 > X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; contact theos-talk-owner@ > yahoogroups.com > Delivered-To: mailing list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Precedence: bulk > List-Unsubscribe: > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:06:42 -0000 > Subject: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20=20 >=20=20 From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 09 06:03:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 14:03:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 92890 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 14:03:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 14:03:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 14:03:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 14:03:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 14:03:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 15714 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > corrected version: > Hello Nisk, >=20 > I am so happy you posted this introduction. First I would like to=20 > invite you personally to my forum. I have just changed the name. I=20 > inherited the forum and the name and just changed it to:=20 > theosophy_talks_truth@y... >=20 > I am a theosophist by birth. I am not Aryan, not white, not Indian.=20 > Although while in India I was mistaken for Indian. I can tell you=20 HPB=20 > was not anti-Catholic per se, she was anti-religion, because she=20 > found it to be anti-truth. I have traced her many lives and she is=20 > involved in things that people would think were totally racist and=20 > the like. But we have to look at the BIG PICTURE.=20=20 >=20 > I have posted a picture of myself on my forum and people still=20 think=20 > I am mediterrean or Indian, but I am not. I write about race and=20 get=20 > called a nazi and everything else. It is a huge subject most people=20 > do not want to discuss, especially whites. So, while I have not=20 > gotten death threats I have gotten lots of hate mail. If you want=20 to=20 > discuss race or your viewpoints you can discuss it with me and read=20 > what I have written at my forum. I think you would be most=20 interested. >=20 > Besides I think you must need spiritual healing due to your=20 > discussion about health issues. If you are living in India is this=20 > because of pollution too? I have spent time in India and while I=20 > loved it there, the smoke in the air is bad. On my last visit=20 after=20=20 > a month I coughed my head off for 6 months when I returned to=20 > Chicago. We used to call it the "Dera cough" >=20 > BTW: since you are so knowledgeable do you know Radhasoami and the=20 > Beas gurus? I followed Charan Singh until his death in 1991. I am=20 no=20 > longer in that group, but have fond and many memories after 22=20 years=20 > with them. >=20 > I will pray for you and send you some healing energy, if that is=20 okay=20 > with you. You know Olcott did some type of mesmeric healing. I heal=20 > with heat and cold massage of the nadis and etheric body. If the=20 > person's karma allows then it happens quite easily, if not then=20 they=20 > might suffer a little longer and be healed spontaneously later. Let=20 > me know, because I think healing is only effective if the other is=20 > willing to accept it and I don't want to intrude on your private=20 > thoughts or philosophy. >=20 > Healing is also philosophical and logical in nature. If you are on=20 a=20 > crusade against Aryan behavior and feel that it has offended you,=20 > perhaps it has. Perhaps you were the offender in a past life. I can=20 > also help you trace some lives and you might find healing that way.=20 > In this sense Knowledge is Power. But HPB writes that the Indians,=20 > especially the Northern Indian, where I was, was the first and true=20 > Aryan. They DO appear different from the southern Indian. But when=20 I=20 > was there I saw an Indian for every black person I knew in America.=20 I=20 > found their twin over there!!! They came in every shape, size and=20 > color. So that is why I love India and Indians and have a true=20 > simpatico for them. >=20 > Namaste >=20 > The best >=20 > Netemara >=20 > **************** > --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > Hello, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, WELCOME TO THEOS WORLD. > > IT SEEMS IGNORANCE IS OUR (HUMANITIES) GREATEST ENEMY. > > THE GREATEST GIFT CAN BE POISON. > > MEDICAL PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY POISONS IN THAT SO=20 > MANY CURES=20 > > HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE DISCOVERIES OF THE ROOT OF EACH POISON=20 > THEREBY=20 > > EFFECTING A CURE. > > FOR EXAMPLE, IT SEEMS THAT IODINE TAKEN INTERNALLY CAN DO GREAT=20 > DAMAGE YET=20 > > WHEN APPLIED TO AN EXTERIOR CUT OR BRUISE CAN AID IN A HEALTHY=20 > RECOVERY AND=20 > > BE A BLESSING. I HOPE WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY RECOVERY=20 AND=20 > MANY=20 > > BLESSINGS. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > In a message dated 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 > > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > >=20 > > > Subj: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > > > Date: 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > > Reply-to: > > theos-talk@y... > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami=20 > > > Subject: MY POST TO THEOS-TALK EGROUP > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > GREETINGS DEAR FELLOW RESPECTERS OF TRUTH AND VIRTUE,=20 > > >=20=20 > > > PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESPECTFUL OBEISANCES. > > >=20=20 > > > MY NAME IS BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AND I AM A SANNYASI AND=20 > SHIKSHA=20 > > > (INSTRUCTING) MASTER IN THE ANCIENT AND VENERABLE BRAHMA- MADHVA- > > > GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. I HAVE ALSO HAD EXTENSIVE=20 > EXPERIANCE=20 > > > WITH SHAIVA, SHAKTI, BUDDHIST AND OTHER TRADITIONS. I HAVE=20 BEEN=20 > > > INVOLVED IN COMPARATIVE RELIGION STUDIES AND INTERFAITH=20 > MINISTRIES=20 > > > FOR 35 YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN DOING POST-GRADUATE LEVEL QUALITY=20 > > > INTERDISCIPLINARY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF RELIGION FOR AT=20 > LEAST 25=20 > > > OF THOSE YEARS. I SUCCESSFULLY DELIVERED THE ORAL PRESENTATION=20 > OF MY=20 > > > TWO YEAR MASTER'S DEGREE THESIS, BUT NEVER PUBLISHED MY THESIS=20 > OR=20 > > > RECEIVED MY DEGREE, BECAUSE I HAD TO GO INTO A NURSING HOME ON=20 A=20 > > > RESPIRATOR, DUE TO POST-POLIO SYNDROME BREATHING MUSCLE=20 > PARALYSIS,=20 > > > BEFORE I COULD FINISH MY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT.=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > AT PRESENT I AM BED-RIDDEN MOST OF THE TIME. MY COMPUTER IS=20 > > > INSTALLED OVER MY BED, AND I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, BECAUSE THESE=20 ARE=20 > WHAT=20 > > > ARE EASIEST FOR ME TO SEE WHEN I AM UNABLE TO SIT UP. MANY=20 > COMPUTER=20 > > > USERS HAVE DIFFICULTY SEEING THEIR MONITORS. WHEN PERSONS=20 SUCH=20 > AS=20 > > > MYSELF USE ALL CAPS, PLEASE DON'T ALSWAYS ASSUME THAT IT IS=20 > BECAUSE=20 > > > WE ARE RUDE AND SHOUTING. IT IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT A REQUIRED=20 > > > AUSTERITY.=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > WITH MY PERMISSION, BRIAN HAS EXCERPTED AND POSTED SOME OF MY=20 > PRIVATE=20 > > > LETTERS TO THIS FORUM. BRIAN HAS NOT BEEN SHOUTING AT ANYONE.=20=20 I=20 > HAVE=20 > > > NOT BEEN POSTING MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN=20 > COMBATING=20 > > > RACIST ARYANISTS GLOBALLY, AND AS A RESULT HAVE RECEIVED=20 > NUMEROUS=20 > > > DEATH THREATS AND ACTUAL ATTACKS FROM THEM. SO I NO LONGER=20 LIKE=20 > TO=20 > > > EXPOSE MYSELF TO ARYANIST FANATICISM OF ANY KIND, ANY MORE=20 THAN=20 > > > NECCESSARY. THUS, BRIAN WAS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY AS A COURTESY=20 > FOR=20 > > > ME.=20 > > >=20=20 > > > EVEN THOUGH I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE VIOLENT RACISTS, OF THE=20 > KIND=20 > > > THAT I HAVE BEEN COMBATING, IT SEEMS PROBABLE TO ME THAT YOU=20 > DON'T=20 > > > REALIZE HOW ARYOSOPHISM IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE THOUGHT SYSTEMS=20 > OF THE=20 > > > RACIST GROUPS I HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IN MY WORK. I HAVE=20 > EXPERIANCED=20 > > > THE WORST OF THE OUT-COMES OF ARYOSOPHISM, BECAUSE IN MY WORK=20 I=20 > HAVE=20 > > > COMBATED THE WORST KIND OF RACIST FANATICS FOR OVER 30 YEARS.=20 > BECAUSE=20 > > > OF THIS, I GENERALLY TO NOT LIKE TO READ T SOCIETY ATTEMPTS TO=20 > DENY=20 > > > THE INFLUENCE OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM ON GLOBAL HISTORY.=20=20=20 > WHETHER=20 > > > THEY ARE HINDU, JAPANESE, EUROPEAN, SRI LANKAN, AMERICAN OR=20 > OTHER=20 > > > ARYANIST RACISTS, THEY ARE TIED TOGETHER BY THE SAME GENERAL=20 > BELIEF- > > > SYSTEMS, WITH ELEMENTS OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM IN THEM.=20 > > >=20=20 > > > MY OPINION IS THAT HPB HAD A BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE=20 > TOWARDS=20 > > > BLACKS, AND WAS ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-CATHOLIC. SHE DID NOT=20 > > > ANTICIPATE OR INTEND THAT HER SCIENTISTIC ROOT-RACES IDEAS=20 WOULD=20 > END-=20 > > > UP FORMING THE BEDROCK OF SOME VERY MALEVOLENT THOUGHT- SYSTEMS.=20 > NOT=20 > > > WANTING TO GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH THEOSOPHISTS ABOUT THE=20 FACT=20 > OF=20 > > > HER RACIST INFLUENCE, I HAVE NOT POSTED TO ANY THEOSOPHICAL=20 > SITES.=20=20 > > > MY PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE WITH BRIAN (AND IT IS PROPER TO=20 > ADDRESS A=20 > > > PERSON AS THEY WISH), HAS NOT BEEN MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND=20 ANY=20 > > > INDIVIDUAL THEOSOPHISTS, BUT RATHER TO EXPRESS MY THINKING ON=20 > THE=20 > > > MAJOR ISSUES THEMSELVES.=20 > > >=20=20 > > > SINCE I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS FORUM, AND DON'T WANT=20 BRIAN=20 > TO=20 > > > BE ERRONEOUSLY ACCUSED OF SHOUTING IN CAPS AT YOU ALL, I AM=20 > > > INTRODUCING MYSELF. I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS AND FRIENDS=20 > WRITING=20 > > > TO ME THAT I OWE LETTERS TO, AND MANY OTHER PRESSING DUTIES TO=20 > ATTEND=20 > > > TO, SO I CANNOT, WITH MY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS, GET INTO ANY=20 > HEATED=20 > > > EXCHANGES ON THIS FORUM. STILL,I WILL TRY TO WRITE SOMETHING=20 > > > REGARDING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS FOR POSTING=20 HERE=20 > > > SOON.=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > BEST WISHES, > > >=20=20 > > > HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA > > >=20=20 > > > BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA OF VAISHNAVISM > > >=20=20 > > > INTERFAITH COMMITTEE ORGANIZER, WORLD VAISHNAVA ORGANIZATION,=20 > > > VRINDAVANA INDIA.=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" =20 > wrote: > > > > Dear Brian/Brigitte, > > > >=20 > > > > If you want many people to continue reading your messages, I=20 > would=20 > > > > suggest that you do NOT use all caps. Using all caps makes=20 it=20 > > > > difficult for most people to read the text. > > > >=20 > > > > What would Paul Johnson say if he knew what you were=20 doing! :) > > > >=20 > > > > Daniel > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach"=20 =20 > > > wrote: > > > > > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE=20 > > > > > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE=20 > > > > > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO=20 > > > > > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES=20 > THE=20 > > > > > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND=20 > > > > > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS=20 > > > > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE=20 FACT=20 > > > > > REMAINS ALSO > > > > > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT=20 > > > > > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS.=20=20 NOTHING.=20=20 > > > > > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR=20 KNOWLEDGE=20 > > > > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR=20 AGELESS=20 > > > > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE=20 > > > > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF=20 > > > > > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > > > > > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS APPEAR=20 > > > > > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > > > > > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE=20 > > > > > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT=20 > > > > > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE=20 > > > > > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN=20 > > > > > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM=20 > > > > > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND=20 > THE=20 > > > > > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > > > > > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S=20 > BOOKS.=20=20=20 > > > > > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.=20 > > > > >=20=20 > > > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > > > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > > > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > > > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > > > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE=20 THINGS.=20=20 > > > > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN=20 THEMSELVES=20 > > > > > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP=20 > > > > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'=20 > > > > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT=20 > > > > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY=20 > > > > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE=20 THINGS.=20=20 > > > > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. > > > > >=20 > > > > > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED=20 THAT=20 > > > > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE=20 PLACE.=20=20 > > > > > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT=20 > > > > > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more=20 > > > > > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has=20 > not=20 > > > been=20 > > > > dealt=20 > > > > > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the=20 > mahatma=20 > > > > > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas=20 and=20 > not=20 > > > > those of=20 > > > > > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" > > > > >=20 > > > > > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO=20 > > > > > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > > > > > = =20 > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=3D > > > > > b9 > > > > >=20 > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell"=20 > > > > wrote:=E2=80=A6 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > >=20=20 > > > ----------------------- Headers ------------------------------- - > > > Return-Path: Nisk98114=3Daol.com@returns. > > > groups.yahoo.com> > > > Received: from rly-xk05.mx.aol.com (rly-xk05.mail.aol.com=20 > [172.20.83.42])=20 > > > by air-xk01.mail.aol.com (v89.12) with ESMTP id MAILINXK11- > 1108230721; Fri,=20 > > > 08 Nov 2002 23:07:21 1900 > > > Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com=20 > > [66.218.66.79])=20 > > > by rly-xk05.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXK52- > 1108230704;=20 > > Fri, > > > 08 Nov 2002 23:07:04 1900 > > > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2248521-8521-1036814805- > Nisk98114=3Daol.com@returns. > > > groups.yahoo.com > > > Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with=20 > NNFMP; 09 Nov=20 > > > 2002 04:06:45 -0000 > > > X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@v... > > > X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@y... > > > Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > > > Received: (qmail 68834 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002=20 > 04:06:44 -0000 > > > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) > > > by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > > > Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com)=20 > (66.218.66.65) > > > by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 04:06:44 - 0000 > > > Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with=20 > NNFMP; 09 Nov=20 > > > 2002 04:06:44 -0000 > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > Message-ID: > > > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > > > X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster > > > From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > > > X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.148 > > > X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Mailing-List: list theos-talk@y...; contact theos-talk-owner@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > Delivered-To: mailing list theos-talk@y... > > > Precedence: bulk > > > List-Unsubscribe: > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 04:06:42 -0000 > > > Subject: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > > > Reply-To: theos-talk@y... > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >=20=20 > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 09 06:18:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 14:18:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 99702 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 14:18:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 14:18:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 14:18:09 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D8BDC5EE261 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:18:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <008701c287fa$207afce0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:13:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, A friendly smile. I also use some words with "caps" - so that some learned readers will be able to read better. My Sufilight answer: 1. If you don't know that, well how can your Ignorance then have any bearing at all ? Or are you just playing stupid ? Even if the Mahatma Letters all of them were fraud, I would say - Even fraud CAN contain wisdom ! Do you not agree on that ? Theosophy is the same as the Ancient WISDOM Teaching of all ages past. And you ask me what importance Wisdom has ? Wisdom is clever and understands FRAUD better !!! Brian wrote for instance: "THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR > KNOWLEDGE > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > > REFERENCE." Why should we stop developing wisdom? What is SUPERIOR knowledge to you ? 2. You could try to answer my questions in the previuos email I send. Would you do that ? 3. On the - Brian-and-friends-website - the following can be found on what is understood as "wisdom" : "This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths: Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly fought with an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures. " My Sufilight view is: TRUE Theosophy a such disagrees deeply with this above assumption about what Theosophy really is, and which you and your friends website mentions. Some organizations of Theosophy and some people who dare calling themselves Theosophists MIS-REPRESENTS, what theosophy really is! Theosophy is the Ancient WISDOM Teaching of all ages past. There are today a lot of people, which could be termed spokepersons on Theosophy - i.e. The Wisdom Teaching of all ages past. Theosophy are - not only - existing where that label "Theosophy" are being used. Try this website, which also contains Teaching on Wisdom - or Theosophy without really referring to Blavatsky. It does however not put forward all the teachings of Wisdom - only some of it. http://www.sufis.org/shah.html. And this on mind-manipulation also http://www.ishkbooks.com/CE/index.html There are other websites like this. There are really not many of them. But only a few. Most of the similar ones - are fanatical or biased in their mode of opreating - and not Theosophical. They are often stock with what we use to call - the dead-letter ignorance. (Maybe you don't know what the 7 keys are. Try the "The Secret Doctrine" written by H. P. Blavatsky , vol 1., p.165, 264-5, 310-??, 325, 464 --- and vol 2. p. 22, 334-35 and more...) Below are 5 examples: >>> Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 265: "To make the whole clearer and to show at the same time the enormous difference in the spirit of interpretation and the original meaning of the same symbols between the ancient Eastern Occultists and the Jewish Kabalists we refer the reader to Book II., "The Holy of Holies.*" * Phallic worship has developed only with the loss of the keys to the true meaning of the symbols. It was the last and most fatal turning point from the highway of truth and divine knowledge into the side path of fiction, raised into dogma through human falsification and hierarchic ambition. >>> Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 310-11: "The many-sided facets of the mystery language have led to the adoption of widely varied dogmas and rites in the exotericism of the Church rituals. It is they, again, which are at the origin of most of the dogmas of the Christian Church, e.g., the seven Sacraments, the Trinity, the Resurrection; the seven capital Sins and the seven Virtues. The seven keys to the mystery tongue, however, having always been in ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [[Vol. 1, Page]] 311 EGYPT'S MANY RELIGIONS. the keeping of the highest among the initiated Hierophants of antiquity, it is only the partial use of a few out of the seven which passed, through the treason of some early Church Fathers -- ex-initiates of the Temples -- into the hands of the new sect of the Nazarenes. Some of the early Popes were Initiates, but the last fragments of their knowledge have now fallen into the power of the Jesuits, who have turned them into a system of sorcery." >>> Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 318-19: But while supposing that the whole cycle of the universal mystery language will not be mastered for whole centuries to come, even that which has been hitherto discovered in the Bible by some scholars is quite sufficient to demonstrate the claim -- mathematically. Judaism having availed itself of two keys out of the seven, and these two keys having been now rediscovered, it becomes no longer a matter of individual speculation and hypothesis, least of all of "coincidence," but one of a correct reading of the Bible texts, as anyone acquainted with arithmetic reads and verifies an addition or total.* A few years longer and this system will kill the dead letter of the Bible, as it will that of all the other exoteric faiths, by showing the dogmas in their real, naked meaning. And then this undeniable meaning, however incomplete, will unveil the mystery of Being, besides changing entirely the modern scientific systems of Anthropology, Ethnology and especially that of Chronology. The element of Phallicism, found in every God-name and narrative in the Old (and to some degree in the New) Testament, may also in time considerably change modern materialistic views in Biology and Physiology. Divested of their modern repulsive crudeness, such views of nature and man, on the authority of the celestial bodies and their mysteries, [[Vol. 1, Page]] 319 MOSES COPIED FROM SARGON. will unveil the evolutions of the human mind and show how natural was such a course of thought. The so-called phallic symbols have become offensive only because of the element of materiality and animality in them. (Footnotes) * All we have said in Isis is now found corroborated in the "Egyptian Mystery; or The Source of Measures," by those readings of the Bible with the numerical and geometrical keys thereto. >>> Here an another example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 325: The SEVEN KEYS open the mysteries, past and future, of the seven great Root Races, as of the seven Kalpas. Though the genesis of man, and even the esoteric geology, will surely be rejected by Science just as much as the Satanic and pre-Adamic races, yet if having no other way out of their difficulties the Scientists have to choose between the two, we feel certain that, Scripture notwithstanding, once the mystery language is approximately mastered, it is the archaic teaching that will be accepted. >>> "The Secret Doctrine", vol2., p.22: All the words and sentences placed in brackets in the Stanzas and Commentaries are the writer's. In some places they may be incomplete and even inadequate from the Hindu standpoint; but in the meaning attached to them in Trans-Himalayan Esotericism they are correct. In every case the writer takes any blame upon herself. Having never claimed personal infallibility, that which is given on her own authority may leave much to be desired, in the very abstruse cases where too deep metaphysics is involved. The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may not fit a meaning, say from the psychological or astronomical aspect, will be found quite correct from the physical or metaphysical. I hope you understand, that wisdom is important ! from Sufilight with some questions and friendly words coming out of the "thin air"... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, I > don't know what this has to do with wisdom. > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi Brian and all of you, > > > > This is just too much. I had to laugh a little while reading the below > email > > from Brian. > > > > Brian wrote in the below: > > "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT > > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. > NOTHING. > > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR > KNOWLEDGE > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > > REFERENCE. > > > > My Sufilight remarks and questions: > > Well, that is a view. And it is of course allright to a have a view and > > present it. > > But you will then have to admit, that YOU today are NOT having a > GREAT > > amount of Wisdom. > > Do you not agree on that ? > > So I have to ask where is the solid rock of assurance, we the readers > will > > have to 'build' on - if we want to agree with you ??? > > > > Should we all not seek knowledge from those who are wise - or at > least seek > > wisdom ? > > Or should we listen to the first and best (- i.e. for instance YOU) who > just > > shouts LIARS, IDIOTS etc - and then in reality NOTHING else. > > The above mesage of yours has as such (in a certain sense) NO > Wisdom behind > > it at all. Were-as some of the Mahatma Letters are talking about > things, > > which if - you - really experienced them your self - would I think make > your > > pretty head spin ! > > What do you know about the word "wisdom" or the words "true > wisdom" ? Have > > you ever experienced what true wisdom is ? Do you really think, that > what we > > humans ordinarily call "the reality" only contains - intellectual thinking > > etc. ? > > If so, I will have to say I certainly disagree - because my daily > > experiences tells me something else. > > > > Now of course true "Wisdom" is knowledge or insight of a kind. Some > calls > > it "Prophetic Gifts". > > And because of that - the posibility of using it AND also misusing it > comes > > to mind. But think carefully about it. > > Would it be wise to mis-use true wisdom ? It don't think so ! > > Because if Wisdom is truly REAL, as I claim it to be, then there must > be som > > reason for its existence. Don't you agree? > > > > > > Brian wrote in the below: > > > > "PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS > APPEAR > > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE > > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT > > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE > > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN > > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM > > ETC. > > > > My Suflight answer: > > The above text of yours also continues, as far as I can understand it > your > > writing, to put down - the idea of Wisdom Teachings and the > existence of > > "wisdom" as a issue worth dealing with. There are as far as I am > concerned > > no reason to put down the search for WISDOM! > > But to put down the misuse of Wisdom or something magical > Knowledge will be > > allright. The manner you do it in - just puts down everything also good > and > > true Wisdom. > > > > Of course we can agree on the negation "NETI, NETI", as "Not this > and Not > > that" while dealing with the core of > > TRUTH of true wisdom. But to put wisdom teachings down, which > contains this > > teaching - is according to me to go to far. > > The students should be allowed to CULL the GOOD they find in each > scripture. > > Blavatsky agrees on that in her book The Key to Theosophy. > > > > > > AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE > > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. > > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE." > > > > My Sufilight answer: > > Yes one might agree with you on the above sentence - if one choses > to ignore > > the existence OR possible existence of WISDOM in the Teachings of H. > P. > > blavatsky and her Masters. But I disagree on that. The search for > wisdom is > > important. > > To be blinded by fanatic ignorant stances won't help ones stupidity ! > > The New Testament Gospels comes to my mind: > > Matt.23 > > [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall > swear by the > > temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the > temple, > > he is a debtor! > > [17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple > > that sanctifieth the gold? > > [19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar > that > > sanctifieth the gift? > > [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. > > [26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and > > platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. > > > > John.9 > > [39] And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that > they which > > see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. > > [40] And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these > words, and > > said unto him, Are we blind also? > > [41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but > now > > ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. > > > > I guess Brian also find the MASTER Jesus Christ to be a fony of the > Jesuits > > or the like! > > Is that true Brian ? > > > > from > > Sufilight with hopefully some words of Wisdom... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:40 PM > > Subject: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION > OF THE MAHATMA > > LETTERS IS:. > > > > > > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE > > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE > > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO > > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES > THE > > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND > > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT > > REMAINS ALSO > > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT > > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. > NOTHING. > > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR > KNOWLEDGE > > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD- > > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS > APPEAR > > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO- > > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE > > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT > > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE > > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN > > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM > > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND > THE > > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE- > > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS. > > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE. > > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN > THEMSELVES > > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS. > > > > > > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP > > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM' > > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT > > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY > > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS. > > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY. > > > > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED > THAT > > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE. > > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT > > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more > > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been dealt > > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma > > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those > of > > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?" > > > > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO > > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE) > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle= > > b9 > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote:. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Nov 09 06:52:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 14:52:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 58235 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 14:52:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 14:52:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 14:52:47 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.57.14a27788 (3988) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:52:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57.14a27788.2afe7b38@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:52:40 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 In a message dated 11/9/02 9:02:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, netemara888@yahoo.com writes: > BTW: since you are so knowledgeable do you know Radhasoami and the > Beas gurus? I followed Charan Singh until his death in 1991. I am no > longer in that group, but have fond and many memories after 22 years > with them ======================================================= THANKYOU FOR YOUR KIND OFFER OF HEALING AND PERSONAL BENEFITS. IN REGARDS TO YOUR SENSING THAT I AM INTERESTED IN HEALING , THAT'S A YES, OF COURSE.THE HEALING I AM SPEAKING OF SEEMS TO DWELL ON THE ERADICATION OF PRIDE, LUST ANGER, AND GREED AND ALL THEIR SUBSIDIARIES AND IF YOU CAN SEND SOME "ANTIBODIES" IN THAT DIRECTION , IT WOULD SEEM TO BE A BENEFIT ALL THE WAY ROUND. IN REGARDS TO THE ABOVE, I AM MOST FLATTERED THAT I EVEN SOUND EVEN REMOTELY KNOWLEDGABLE.JUST A "POOR" STRUGGLING STUDENT OF THE WISDOM RELIGION. THASSALL. YOUR GENEROUS OFFER IS A "HEALING" IN ITSELF AND, FRANKLY, IF NOTHING ELSE WAS FORTHCOMING IT WILL REMAIN AS A GOOD BROTHERLY FEELING THAT CAN "WARM" THE HEART AND "FEND" OFF POISONS (OF ALL KINDS). I GREATLY APPRECIATE HEARING FROM YOU ON THIS FORUM AND WAS STRUCK BY YOUR SEEMINGLY, AGONIZING SITUATION. HAVE HAD TROUBLE ON AND OFF WITH THE EYES MYSELF IN THE LAST FEW DECADES. ANNNNNND, LAST BUT NOT LEAST, I WAS CERTAINLY FASCINATED THAT YOU FIXED MY LOCATION IN INDIA.(THE GREAT OLD MOTHER OF US ALL, ACCORDING TO THEOSOPHY). I VERY MUCH REGRET? , I SUPPOSE, THAT I DO NOT KNOW ALL OF WHOM YOU SPEAK, BUT, AT ANOTHER LEVEL WE ARE ALL KNOWN, DON'T YOU THINK? SO, TO WRAP UP, I DID A SEARCH FOR THEOSOPHY_TALKS_TRUTH AT YAHOO BUT CAME UP EMPTY. BTW I AM LOCATED IN THE STATES. ... UNITED, OF COURSE. (CHUCKLE) PLEASE CONTINUE TO PASS THOSE BROTHERLY FEELINGS THROUGH THE LINEAGES YOU MENTIONED. I , PERSONALLY, BELIEVE THAT'S ABOUT ALL THAT WILL REALLY WORK IN THIS WORLD TODAY. PS I WAS BORN INTO A THEOSOPHICAL FAMILY MYSELF.WHAT A FABULOUS GOOD FORTUNE, RIGHT/ From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 09 07:57:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 15:57:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 79048 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 15:57:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 15:57:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 15:57:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 15:57:53 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:57:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A question about who wrote the text in ALL CAPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 219 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: A question about who wrote the text in ALL CAPS Concerning the following post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8477 who wrote the text ALL IN CAPS at the beginning of this posting? Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 09 08:04:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 16:04:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 15551 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 16:04:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 16:04:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 16:04:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 16:04:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 16:04:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: 2nd Question: Brian, did you write this posting all in CAPS? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 341 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell 2nd Question: Brian, did you write the following posting all in CAPS? I refer to posting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8490 One can readily understand why Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes his posts in ALL CAPS but Brian, if you wrote the above posting all in caps, I cannot understand your rationale. Why? Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 09 08:44:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 16:44:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 15099 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 16:44:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 16:44:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 16:44:37 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 46D915EF577 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:44:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001b01c2880e$95edbb20$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: Sorry a minor mistake.. Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:39:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian and all of you, Sorry Brian. I made a minor mistake in my last email to Theos-talk: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8521 The link http://www.ishkbooks.com/CE/index.html was wrong. This was the one I had in mind : http://www.ishkbooks.com/focus/ , but not this entire website. Yes. Let us combat blind beliefs. from Sufilight with restless gray cells... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 09 08:54:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 16:54:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 22746 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 16:54:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 16:54:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 16:54:19 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AYsF-0007Kt-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 08:54:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCD3DD4.1596DD81@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:54:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, > I don't know what this has to do with wisdom. Then why do you expend so much energy on them? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 09 08:57:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 16:56:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 91374 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 16:56:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 16:56:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 16:57:00 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AYuq-0002ae-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 08:57:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCD3E74.903F73A5@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:57:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 netemara888 wrote: > was not anti-Catholic per se, she was anti-religion, because she I think a better term would be "anti-dogma". Would you agree or disagree? Bart From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 09 09:29:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 17:29:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 54117 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 17:29:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 17:29:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 17:29:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 17:29:34 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:29:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCD3DD4.1596DD81@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1033 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Bart:Then why do you expend so much energy on them? Brian: Well I wrote on my web site "Case Closed" yesterday, and I won't spend time on this list anymore for the time being. It has been a waist of time indeed. I only will update my website every day. I did just write to Bhakti Anandi Goswami however that if he finds the time to write a short comment about the Mahatma Letters (something Daniel Caldwell obviously isn't capable of) I will place it on my web site. Good by, http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, > > I don't know what this has to do with wisdom. > > Then why do you expend so much energy on them? > > Bart From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 09 12:01:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 92526 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.171.16d87153 (3980) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:01:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <171.16d87153.2afec3a5@cs.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:01:41 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavat... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Jeremy, Yes, and in the last century major advancement in Astronomy and discovery has added Planets to our immediate Solar System. In addition in the last 20 years newer Discovery means have been devised, built, and put to use both earth based and Orbital, as well is the Deep Space Network. Soon, many more truly revolutionary discoveries shall be made as even more advanced Scientific Devices are brought on line and put to use. As you and others made have seen on TV recently another "Moon" was discovered and Named in orbit around the Planet Uranus bringing it's total of satellites to 21. There are now over 50 posited new Planets orbiting distant stars published by the Academics of Astronomy worldwide, the number will grow and grow now and in the years to follow and by weight of evidence force the transformation of rigid concepts long held even by those who thought as in the past they had reached "the end of all knowledge." http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/planets http://www.generation.net/~mariob/astro/exoplan/intro-e.htm http://www.solstation.com/stars/eps-erid.htm John From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 09 12:16:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 20:16:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 11084 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 20:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 20:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 20:16:18 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.78.3038c25d (3980) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:16:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <78.3038c25d.2afec70a@cs.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:16:10 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Dallas and List Members, I seem to recall that there are "Forbidden Archeology" websites online, I suggest using www.google.com search using the key words above in the quotes. John From teos9@aol.com Sat Nov 09 12:28:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 20:28:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 73676 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 20:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 20:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 20:28:11 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.185.1196d802 (30960) for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:28:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <185.1196d802.2afec9d7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:28:07 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jeremy, If you don't mind sharing the information, I would like to know, what are the "other works of the Master Hilarion," and published by whom, that has helped you reach such a profound conclusion. How long have you been a student of the Hilarion material and what is it about "Voice," that reminds you of Hilarion. I would like to see the comparisons myself because "Voice of the Silence" has always had a haunting and unique echo of another time, for me. I have not seen it's like in most of my readings and am interested in discovering more. Thanks, Louis In a message dated 11/9/2002 8:05:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpcondick@btinternet.com writes: > Having studied the Voice Of The Silence I have concluded that there > are similarities to other works of the Master Hilarion. Whether or not > these works are accepted by students is another matter. > This is however only a personal observation and I thank you as always > for your comments Dallas. > > As you say, the true value is in the text itself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 13:09:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 21:09:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 52924 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 21:09:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 21:09:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:09:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: THEOS IMPOSTER FRAUD AGAIN..LETTER NOT NOT NOT FROM B A GOSWAMI Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1061 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.135 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn TO ALL READERS ON THIS BOARD, YOU HAVE ALL BEEN DONE A GREAT DISSERVICE. THERE IS AN IMOSTER ON THIS EGROUP. I HAVE JUST READ A LETTER ON THIS EGROUP, WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS AND PRESENTING ITSELF AS IF IT WERE WRITTEN BY ME ! THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN BY AN IMPOSTER !!! THE INTERNET ID OF THE WRITER SHOULD BE USED BY THE MODERATOR TO REPORT THIS IMPOSTER TO THE AUTHORITIES, AND THEY SHOULD BE EXPOSED FOR WHO THEY ARE TO THIS GROUP. I SHOULD BE GIVEN A PUBLIC APOLOGY BY THE IMPOSTER IMMEDIATELY. AS I HAVE A VERY FRAGILE PHYSICAL CONDITION TO BEGIN WITH, THE SHOCK OF THIS HAS CAUSED ME GREAT PHYSICAL DISTRESS, AND IS THUS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER. IF THIS OR ANY OTHER SUPPOSED TRUTH-LOVER CONTINUES THIS ABUSE OF MY IDENTITY, I SHALL BE FORCED TO TAKE WHATEVER LEGAL MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO STOP THEM. IDENTITY THEFT IS A CRIME. APALLED AT SOME PEOPLES' ARROGANCE AND DISHONESTY, I AM PRAYING FOR THE DELIVERANCE OF ALL THOSE DELUDED AND DISHONEST PERSONS WHO CLAIM TO BE PERSONS THEY ARE NOT. MAY TRUTH PREVAIL ! BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 13:20:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 21:20:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 85488 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 21:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 21:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 21:20:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 21:20:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:20:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question about who wrote the text in ALL CAPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 511 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.135 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn I DID. BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI. CONSIDERING THE CONFUSION ON THIS BOARD, WITH SOMEONE ELSE WRITING MISLEADING REPLIES IN ALL CAPS, IT SEEMS THAT CLEAR COMMUNICATION IS SOMEWHAT HAPPERED AT THE MOMENT. -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > SUBJECT: A question about who wrote the text in ALL CAPS > > Concerning the following post: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8477 > > who wrote the text ALL IN CAPS at the beginning of this posting? > > Daniel From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 13:24:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 21:24:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 62237 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 21:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 21:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 21:24:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 21:24:04 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:24:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: 2nd Question: Brian, did you write this posting all in CAPS? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 576 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.135 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn THIS IS ANOTHER EXCERPT FROM OUR PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE ANONYMOUSLY POSTED FOR ME BY BRIAN, BEFORE I JOINED THE EGROUP. BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > 2nd Question: Brian, did you write the following posting all in CAPS? > > I refer to posting: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8490 > > One can readily understand why Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes his posts > in ALL CAPS but Brian, if you wrote the above posting all in caps, I > cannot understand your rationale. Why? > > Daniel From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 13:31:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 11253 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 21:31:08 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:31:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCD3E74.903F73A5@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 372 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.135 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > netemara888 wrote: > > was not anti-Catholic per se, she was anti-religion, because she > > I think a better term would be "anti-dogma". Would you agree or > disagree? > > Bart HPB WAS CERTAINLY ANTI-DOGMA, BUT CREATED HER OWN DOGMA IN THE END ANYWAY. SHE WAS ALSO ANTI-CATHOLIC. BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 09 13:34:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 21:34:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 89265 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 21:34:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 21:34:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 21:34:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 21:34:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: welcoming fellow seekers Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 10825 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Originating-IP: 66.27.176.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker My first thought when reading the post by Gowsami was that here was another fictional character made up by Brigitte, so I did a quick search of the Internet and see that there really is someone with that name. There is. He did not introduce himself very fully, so I found something about him at the following site. In that description, there are a few other points that may be of interest to fellow truth seekers. > In 1972 David Sherman, a Christian historian of religion, began his > study of bhakti yoga ... Later David moved with his family to > Dallas, Texas and began full-time service to the Lord, becoming a > formal disciple of Srila Prabhupada's by the name Deva Deva das > ... at times persecuted ... has given Bhakti Ananda Swami ... > great empathy for persons who have been rejected and persecuted > for being 'different." ... In spite of illness related to > post-polio syndrome, Bhakti Ananda Goswami has continued his > service to the Vaishnava community through religious scholarship > and pastoral care ... as a Catholic he has continued his > bhakti-yoga practice of life-long devotion to Jesus Christ. He > advocates holiness of life for everyone in both celibate chastity > and marital faithfulness ... "If my God and Savior has called and > fitted me to serve souls in some capacity, who am I to refuse to > do it?" I would like to welcome Goswami to the list, since our discussions can be deepened as we draw people from an even-wider range of backgrounds. The intended emphasis of the list is not, though, a "witch hunt," where we are looking for and trying to draw out the dark side of people. There may be groups that foster prejudice and unify themselves by defining and hating some common enemy, but that approach is not welcome in theosophical circles. The emphasis in Theosophy is on finding the spiritual light hidden in every person and encouraging it to come out. His background seems to prefer theism, theistic Buddhism, Vedanta, and Christianity. It is what I understand the Bhakti approach to prefer. We each adopt a philosophical model of life and the universe that matches our inner life. In that regard, he is no different from any of us. Some may prefer non-theistic philosophy to explain things, even though our inner light shines just as brightly and as we make equally valuable, unique contributions to bringing light into the world. What constitutes a hate group? What are its characteristics? How do we watch out for trends in that direction so that we can counteract them? How do we identify them in other groups and people? What can we do to help them? In the book, PSYCHIC DICTATORSHIP IN AMERICA, we find some hints. Hate groups "work insidiously, under false fronts and colors, and only when they have achieved some degree of influence and power will their subversive nature be revealed." (page 159) Our openness is good and we could be ever clear in telling people what Theosophy is about. A group attempts "to make ... people ... into automatons, fitted only to obey the mandates of some dictator." Theosophy teaches that the Masters leave the students to their own device and council even up to the last and supreme Initiation. The emphasis is on self-directed evolution rather than devotion and obedience to the authority of someone else. The goal is to turn people into unique, independent sources of light in the world rather than into making them into pawns in someone's strategic manipulation of world affairs. Anyone making demands for obedience is immediately suspect to us. Theosophy does not teach "paranoiac doctrines" (page 160) nor strive to "kill our individualism, our ideals of religious and political freedom." (page 160) Individual insight is a key element of the theosophical path, which often leads one to leaving traditional theosophical groups and going one's own way. It may also lead to leaving behind the basic theosophical doctrines as well, since the purpose is to set one's feet on the Path, not to put chains on them and force someone to take one's personal approach except out of their own free will, if that appeals the most to them. Individuals in the theosophical movement can become confused and write things that are inconsistent with the philosophy or that seek to control others. Others may write prejudiced materials. This is true in any movement. Because of the freedom and autonomous nature of theosophical groups, though, there is no religious authority to approve of or ban books. There is no boss in Theosophy, although each theosophical group has its own preferred interpretation that it publishes and promotes. This freedom is found to be especially refreshing to ex-Catholics, coming to it from a background where there are mandatory beliefs (dogmas) and one is considered a heretic if one's views don't submit to Papal Infallibility. With Theosophy, there are many groups, and one is free to move in or out of them as one will, and many prefer to be independents, depending on what approach they are taking and which particular flavor of the theosophical doctrines they may be interested in learning more of. The book goes on to say, "no real Master of the Divine Wisdom would ever interfere with a pupil's God-given right of independent and initiative action." (page 161) In this respect, Theosophy is far ahead of religious sects and the various cults, some of which may have borrowed and twisted a few theosophical ideas to their own hateful purposes. A final comment from the book is that "their avowed purpose is to save the people from certain 'enemies'" (page 163) and they are "dominated usually by some racial or religious intolerance." (page 165) As soon as any of us starting picking out some group of people as "the bad guys," and build up prejudices against them (forming opinions without really knowing them), we are doing this. Groups might fall into this trap. All of us need to be aware of any trends or tendencies in this direction. We can watch ourselves and our actions, striving to be the best people we can. We can watch the group dynamics at play in the meetings we attend, seeking to keep any darkness. We only get into trouble when we start to play policeman, seeking to interfere in the behavior of others and other groups. Without really knowing them or knowing how they see things, we must not let ourselves become prejudiced, forming opinions without actual knowledge and experience. As soon as we start along that path, we soon take on those qualities of prejudice, bigotry, hatefulness of others, arrogance, and elitism that we might be telling ourselves we are trying to combat in others. Besides learning to think for ourselves, which includes working on metaphysical thought and the ability to have original insights, there are other basic skills needed. It is important to know basic psychology and know how other people and organizations may try to manipulate us. This includes businesses with their advertising, the cunning actions of unethical missionaries for some member-hungry church, or the psychological ploys of some would be political or religious despot. One type of manipulation is telling a group of people that they are better than others are. Perhaps it is simply because they have converted to the "one, true faith," or perhaps it is as foolish (and stupid) as an accident of birth, perhaps because of the race, caste, or nation they have been born into. Helping people see through that foolishness, we can improve their lives -- if the prejudice really was there. We must take care not to moralize to someone about some prejudice that they do not have. Instead of providing any actual help, such action is harmful and leaves them viewing us as narrow-minded, bigoted, and undesirable to be around. Picture, for instance, someone casting an astrological chart being confronted by a religious zealot shouting at one to stop his or her devil worship! (Such would be especially funny to the astrologer. It is only the zealot that believes in that devil, attributing power to it and living his or her life in fear of such a fiction.) I was reading an interesting novel recently, THE TREASURE OF MONTSEGUR by Sophy Burnham. It is a fictional account of life among the Cathars. They considered themselves the pure ones. These chaste followers of Christ were pacifist and vegetarian. They may have believed in reincarnation. They had the Bible in the local language and did not title to nor respect the political authority of the Catholic Church. Their destruction, instigated by the Catholic Church, was perhaps one of the most thorough cases of religion-based genocide that I recall. "To raise his army in 1209, the Pope promised any soldier who fought for forty days a freeze on his debts, the remission of all sins, and the possibility of plunder ... This made it a popular war." The entire population of Cathar cities was killed, and the cities were leveled. Even people saying they knew a Cathar were subject to torture and death by the Inquisition. The Church burned the final Perfectus in 1321. "With that, after nearly three hundred years of effort, the Catholic Church succeeded in stamping out the heresy and establishing the political boundaries of France. The Inquisition then turned its attention to new enemies, finding them in dissidents and Jews." (page ix) An historian could find fault with the Catholic Church, looking back into what it did in earlier centuries. We might acknowledge that its present membership is more tolerant and enlightened. We can say the same of any organization -- be it religious, political, or metaphysical. The early history of a group is irrelevant. What matters is how the group has evolved and of what use it currently is in making the world a better place. Look at each person's actions. Are they working to bring peace, harmony, tolerance, brotherhood, cooperation among peoples? Do they seek to help people learn and thing for themselves? Do they seek the Light everywhere it may be found, with making prejudicial judgments about anyone's backgrounds? If so, they are a friend of the Spirit and coworkers with us. If not, we do best to simply ignore them, and they will take their dirty work elsewhere, seeking more fertile ground for darkness and discord. The world will become a better place and we all have our roles in helping it happen. Any of us must ask a basic question. This question is the key to our purpose in life. The question is not: What awful thing is there in the world and how do I destroy it? No. Rather, I'd say, the question is: What is it that I truly love doing, loving it so much that the world disappears when I'm engaged in it, that thing that I am truly uniquely myself in doing? From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 14:29:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 22:29:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 46157 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 22:29:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 22:29:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 22:29:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Nov 2002 22:29:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI APOLOGIZES FOR MISUNDERSTANDING Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <57.14a27788.2afe7b38@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4376 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.135 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, YOUR BELOW LETTER IN ALL CAPS IS NOT SIGNED. IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE ALL CAPS ON A THREAD TITLED "BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS", PLEASE CLEARLY IDENTIFY THE PERSON YOU ARE ADDRESSING, AND SIGN YOUR EMAIL. THIS MORNING THIS EMAIL CAUSED CONFUSION IN MY PERSONAL ASSISTANT (I AM DISABLED), AND WHEN IT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION, I WAS ALSO AT FIRST NOT SURE WHO WAS ADRESSING WHO. IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO READ EVERYONE ELSE'S SMALL- CASE LETTERS POSTS, SO THIS ADDED TO THE PROBLEM. AS A RESULT I WAS AT FIRST CONCERNED THAT SOMEONE WAS IMITATING MY ALL-CAPS POSTING. THUS I WROTE THE REACTIONARY POST DEMANDING THE IDENTIFICATION OF THE ACTUAL AUTHOR OF THIS LETTER. HAVING NOW READ THE PREVIOUS EXCHANGES, I UNDERSTAND THEM, AND APOLOGIZE FOR THIS MISUNDERSTANDING OF MINE. WHOEVER YOU ARE, I AM DEEPLY SORRY AND ASK YOUR PARDON. MAY I SUGGEST SOMETHING ? WHEN A THREAD IS STARTED, THE EXCHANGES SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED AND CONFINED TO THE TOPIC. IF PEOPLE WANT TO GO OFF ON A TANGENT ELSEWHERE, THEN THEY SHOULD START A NEW TOPIC. ALWAYS TRY TO REMEMBER TO CLEARLY IDENTIFY THE PERSON YOU ARE ADDRESSING AND WHO YOU ARE IN YOUR POST. THIS WILL BE HELPFUL TO YOUR READERS. MY APOLOGIES AGAIN TO YOURSELF AND THE READERS ON THIS EGROUP. AS IT IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR ME TO READ NORMAL-SIZED TYPE, AND A HELPER IS NOT ALWAYS AVAILABLE TO ME FOR THIS ASSISTANCE, TO AVOID MAKING FURTHER MISTAKES, I WILL PROBABLY NOT BE ACTIVE IN EXCHANGES ON EGROUPS ANYMORE. LAST YEAR DUE TO MY FAILING HEALTH (INCLUDING SIGHT PROBLEMS), I ENDED MOST OF MY INTERNET INVOLVEMENT REQUIRING THE READING OF SMALL LETTERS. IT WAS OBVIOUSLY THE CORRECT THING TO DO, AND I REGRET HAVING ATTEMPTED TO GET DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN ANOTHER EGROUP EXCHANGE, ON THIS FORUM. I ONLY CAME HERE BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE CRITICIZING BRIAN FOR WRITING IN ALL CAPS. BRIAN WAS POSTING MY PERSONAL LETTERS REGARDING THEOSOPHY AND ARYANISM TO THIS EGROUP ANONYMOUSLY WITH MY PERMISSION. I ALSO APOLOGIZE TO BRIAN AND THE REST OF YOU FOR THE CONFUSION THAT THIS HAS CAUSED. BEST WISHES TO YOU ALL, PAX AND PREMA, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/9/02 9:02:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > netemara888@y... writes: > > > BTW: since you are so knowledgeable do you know Radhasoami and the > > Beas gurus? I followed Charan Singh until his death in 1991. I am no > > longer in that group, but have fond and many memories after 22 years > > with them > ======================================================= > THANKYOU FOR YOUR KIND OFFER OF HEALING AND PERSONAL BENEFITS. > IN REGARDS TO YOUR SENSING THAT I AM INTERESTED IN HEALING , THAT'S A YES, OF > COURSE.THE HEALING I AM SPEAKING OF SEEMS TO DWELL ON THE ERADICATION OF > PRIDE, LUST ANGER, AND GREED AND ALL THEIR SUBSIDIARIES AND IF YOU CAN SEND > SOME "ANTIBODIES" IN THAT DIRECTION , IT WOULD SEEM TO BE A BENEFIT ALL THE > WAY ROUND. > IN REGARDS TO THE ABOVE, I AM MOST FLATTERED THAT I EVEN SOUND EVEN > REMOTELY KNOWLEDGABLE.JUST A "POOR" STRUGGLING STUDENT OF THE WISDOM > RELIGION. THASSALL. > YOUR GENEROUS OFFER IS A "HEALING" IN ITSELF AND, FRANKLY, IF NOTHING > ELSE WAS FORTHCOMING IT WILL REMAIN AS A GOOD BROTHERLY FEELING THAT CAN > "WARM" THE HEART AND "FEND" OFF POISONS (OF ALL KINDS). > I GREATLY APPRECIATE HEARING FROM YOU ON THIS FORUM AND WAS STRUCK BY > YOUR SEEMINGLY, AGONIZING SITUATION. HAVE HAD TROUBLE ON AND OFF WITH > THE EYES MYSELF IN THE LAST FEW DECADES. > ANNNNNND, LAST BUT NOT LEAST, I WAS CERTAINLY FASCINATED THAT YOU > FIXED MY LOCATION IN INDIA.(THE GREAT OLD MOTHER OF US ALL, ACCORDING TO > THEOSOPHY). I VERY MUCH REGRET? , I SUPPOSE, THAT I DO NOT KNOW ALL OF WHOM > YOU SPEAK, BUT, AT ANOTHER LEVEL WE ARE ALL KNOWN, DON'T YOU THINK? > SO, TO WRAP UP, I DID A SEARCH FOR THEOSOPHY_TALKS_TRUTH AT YAHOO BUT > CAME UP EMPTY. > > BTW I AM LOCATED IN THE STATES. ... UNITED, OF COURSE. (CHUCKLE) > PLEASE CONTINUE TO PASS THOSE BROTHERLY FEELINGS THROUGH THE > LINEAGES YOU MENTIONED. I , PERSONALLY, BELIEVE THAT'S ABOUT ALL THAT WILL > REALLY WORK IN THIS WORLD TODAY. > > PS I WAS BORN INTO A THEOSOPHICAL FAMILY MYSELF.WHAT A FABULOUS GOOD > FORTUNE, RIGHT/ From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 09 15:03:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 23:03:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 26386 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 23:03:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 23:03:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 23:03:19 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AedK-0000iF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:03:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3DCD9424.97A3CDF3@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:03:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI APOLOGIZES FOR MISUNDERSTANDING References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > ADDRESSING, AND SIGN YOUR EMAIL. THIS MORNING THIS EMAIL CAUSED > CONFUSION IN MY PERSONAL ASSISTANT (I AM DISABLED), Have your assistant look at the following web site: http://www.simtel.net/pub/pd/9111.html It is free software that reads your email out loud to you. From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Nov 09 15:36:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 23:36:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 65267 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 23:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 23:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lutetium) (194.73.73.116) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 23:36:23 -0000 Received: from host62-7-38-56.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.38.56] helo=oemcomputer) by lutetium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18Af9J-0001cp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 23:36:22 +0000 Message-ID: <003701c28848$898df540$3826073e@oemcomputer> To: References: <185.1196d802.2afec9d7@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:34:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence > Hi Jeremy, > > If you don't mind sharing the information, I would like to know, what are the > "other works of the Master Hilarion," and published by whom, that has helped > you reach such a profound conclusion. How long have you been a student of the > Hilarion material and what is it about "Voice," that reminds you of Hilarion. > I would like to see the comparisons myself because "Voice of the Silence" has > always had a haunting and unique echo of another time, for me. I have not > seen it's like in most of my readings and am interested in discovering more. > > Thanks, > > Louis. Dear Louis, >From past experience it would not be fair for me to post passages from other teachings on this list as it is Blavatsky centred. Indeed this I respect and will not therefore paint the canvas with any other oils. Having discovered there was at least a slim possibility of the Master Hilarion lending his skilled hand to the work, as Clara Codd hinted , I was intrigued by the thought and my sensed possibility. Therefore, if I may, I will write to you personally with the particular quote I have in mind thus not offending anyone here. Kind Regards Jeremy > In a message dated 11/9/2002 8:05:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jpcondick@btinternet.com writes: > > > > Having studied the Voice Of The Silence I have concluded that there > > are similarities to other works of the Master Hilarion. Whether or not > > these works are accepted by students is another matter. > > This is however only a personal observation and I thank you as always > > for your comments Dallas. > > > > As you say, the true value is in the text itself > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 09 16:39:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 00:39:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 40485 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 00:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 00:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 00:39:45 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-06-22.look.ca ([216.154.46.22] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Ag8P-0006vp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:39:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3DCDAAEF.AA043773@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:40:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Gerald, Leon, and . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Gerald wrote: << Duality is relatively easy to understand with polar opposites like up and down, and beauty and ugliness. Also, we all understand left and right, and male and female. We pretty much take these dualities for granted. But manas has a much harder time with some other dualities like existence and nonexistence for example, or self and not-self. The basic polar opposites of Space and Motion are also not clearly understood by manas, and usually require experiential knowledge.>> And, while we're on that subject, what about those people and Theosophists who . . . (how should one put it?) occasionally tend to give the impression (to some of us?) that they can't see the forest for the trees . . . That is, as I see it, (or tend to see it), the study of Theosophy, in particular, might be somewhat better accomplished or entered into with a kind of two-tiered approach: 1. as per one's realization of the dualistic, literalistic (or "exoteric") aspects of one's study, and, 2. while keeping in mind that the dualistic aspects of one's studies can only be, at best, the dualistic or exoteric "aspects or versions" that were created as per one's notions about "relevance re the underlying esoteric/experiential reality" (not that that "relevance" can ever have a "direct enough" relationship with what is categorically at least far less dualistic, apparently?) For example, why is it that when I read many of Leon's posts, I tend to feel that his scientizing comes across to me as if he doesn't realize that, while modeling might be a nice hobby, that's not, after all, what Theosophy is more realistically about. I see Theosophy as a medium by which one might in some way transcend dualistic notions not by creating more of dualistic/exoteric modeling, but by reading between the lines of one's world, as opposed to getting trapped by them . . . Or do some of us (Leon, Gerald?) create more lines and models with the objective of then having more of them to read between . . . ^:-) Well, whatever turns one on, I suppose . . . Not that I see anything wrong with being creative. And I tend to think one can, optionally, read between the lines of a vast array of creative efforts, some of which may appear ("on the surface") to have no particularly "direct" relationship with Theosophy (but may be, in some sense, even more intimately related?). But I suspect that as long as Theosophists confine their studies and attitudes within certain literalistic guidelines (which approach may, of course, be perfectly appropritate for some Theosophists, in consideration of where they're at, "on their Path" . . .), then such literalism will confine their studies, might even tend to keep them from as much speculating about whatever transcendent aspects/relevance they might be inclined to at least speculate about if they were less hampered, brainwashed, hypnotized by their current worldview. <> "Sin?" Something to do with "wrongdoing"? If Theosophy is seen in terms of reasoning that unifies "self" and "other people," then (obviously?) one can only do wrong to oneself . . . So here's a little experiment: 1. get a friend to place their thumb on a sturdy stake. 2. hit frinds thumb with hammer. 3. ouch (says friend, not you). 4. wait for the karmic repercussions of said ouch from friend. 5. keep waiting. 6. don't forget what you're waiting for even after many lifetimes. 7. If you forget what you're waiting for (as in many cases, apparently?) don't assume that you're not waiting for anything. 8. Eventually, when you finally get around to, say, karmically hitting yourself, or being hit (eg, on your "own thumb," with a hammer, say), don't assume . . . 9. don't assume what . . . ? (not for me to say) 10. in any case, this experiment, when carried out as described, ought to demonstrate something about the difference between karma and self . . . (maybe?): 11. this experiment demonstrated (didn't it?) that by studying Theosophy and karmaself (and "related subjects" as per "esoteric/exoteric" and "Theosophy" . . .), one ought to come to the realization that, though there is an apparent, or creative, connection between "karma" and "self," (the quotes as per allowance toward that creative/interpretive component) they are, nevertheless, two different things in terms of dualistic and non-dualistic, in the sense that, of the two, only the "self" is generally seen (I think?) as associated with the potential to transcend "itself" on a Path toward Beness. 12. that kind of realization might help in setting one on a path that might be less bound by dualistic principles. Maybe? 13. finished with hitting one's thumb, etc, and after realizing that karmaself is mayavic, one becomes enlightened. 14. That's it. And . . . <> Or, optionally (?), we might try on the view that "advancement," (as per whatever shape, form, terminology), is closely enough allied with a certain innate wisdom to not hit oneself in the thumb, or any other place . . . That way, how can one not fail to make some kind of meaningful progress . . . well, at least in "exoteric terms," for a start . . . Of course (?), on the other hand (or same hand?), one might discover that there are so many different ways that one can, in effect, hammer one's thumb or whatever . . . <> Right, sems it's been a while since I last hammered my thumb . . . Hmm. ^:-) Actually, seeing as there might be so many different ways that one can hammer oneself, well . . . ^:-) . . . That's my symbol for a stumped guy scratching his head (not that I regard myself as "TOO stumped," "really," but/"but" . . . "well") <> I suppose those bodhisattvas know about the various ways that one can hammer oneself, so . . . easy for them to say, apparently . . . <>>>> And all it took was the wisdom to keep oneself from hammering oneself . . . ? <> I was going to say "whoever you are," but, then . . . well, if we're all aspects of One, that "whoever" might seem kind of offish, so . . . ^:-) . . . Anyway, don't forget: My thumb's been hit often enough already, eh! Speculatively, Mauri PS Not that I'm speculating so much about the hammerings I have had, as . . . Well, not being enlightened, I feel "speculating" might be somewhat more sensible, or safer, than "stating facts." Although . . . Hmm. I wonder if my "althoughs" (or "some of them" . . . ) might be so much self hammering, in some way . . . Tricky stuff. PPS Gerald here was uncrossedly responding (with the use of "<<>>") on Theos-1 to a private post, apparently. But I his persmission to quote him . . . or had, not too long ago. PPPS Since Leon is mentioned in this post, and since don't know if Leon subscribes to Theos-1, I thought it might be somewhat relevant to send this post to this list, maybe . . . From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 09 18:20:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 02:20:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 10861 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 02:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 02:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 02:20:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 02:20:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 02:20:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: sample theosophical classes Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1225 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Originating-IP: 66.27.176.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I've put the two most recent classes of the Malibu ULT online. They were on THE SECRET DOCTRINE, volume II. The first is at page 299 and the second on page 303. The files are encoded as 32kbps mp3 files and can be listened to using the following two links. http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/webram/20021105.ram http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/webram/20021029.ram The mp3 files can be downloaded for offline listening from the following links: http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/mp3/20021105.mp3 http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/mp3/20021029.mp3 Every theosophical class is different. They vary in diversity of membership, depth of knowledge of the philosophy, manner of approach to the materials, and openness to a study of other materials. Note then that this group is not necessarily representative of others, no more so that any group would be. When volume II of the SD is finished, I'll be making a cdrom set of the entire class on the book. That should be in about a year. Meanwhile, I continue to collect recordings and insure they're ready in the proper computer format for inclusion on the disks (and ready for online access as well). From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 09 20:42:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 04:42:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 12785 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 04:42:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 04:42:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 04:42:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 04:42:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 04:42:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9298 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Funny, haha, Brian. But I think you answered your own question. It is more to the point if they were 'average' well-read folks who had a following that included Yeats, and Tom Edison to name a few it would beg the question: how the hell did they do it? Where DID the influence come from? What was the influence and the effects? And there are more books than one could buy with evidence as to what the effects of TS have been on the world. There is your evidence Mr. Judge. Netemara **************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Netemara: I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian > woman with the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and > no money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not > supposed to happen if you think about it. > > I don't see what you wrote provided any evidence (other then polemics) > that the "Mahatma Letters" contain anything else (more or new) > then the information available to Blavatsky and friends, their normal > human (not sages in the Himalalaya, there is NO evidence Blavatsky ever > was in Tibet) studies in Rosicrucianism, Masonry, spiritism, and a wide > readiing in religion, history, Philosophy and the science of their day ? > I went over this already on this list, but never received an answer. > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/invoccultism.html > > And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/esosecrets.html > > And: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austr2.html > > Look forward to your detailed response to the above ,and pls include > referrences. > Brian > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > Well said wry1111. > > > > Brian was on my group for a while and I addressed this issue but not > > directly. The message and the books and the outer trappings of > > mysterious masters of a cult one could call: "made in India" suitable > > for export to the West, is NOT what is important. What is important > > is that this movement made a whole in the glamorized view of human > > history and she (TS) did it in a way that it has never been done > > before. That is what makes people mad I suspect. She was NOT > supposed > > to be successful--don't you see? It was not supposed to work. It was > > not supposed to happen. But it was destined to work. It was destined > > to change the world. And dear Brian you can't change that with all > > the capitalized essays in the world!!! > > > > I mean how could some concocted stories about a Russian woman > with > > the soul of gypsy and a soft spot for poor regular folks, and no > > money to speak of affect the whole Western world? It was just not > > supposed to happen if you think about it. > > > > I think it's funny like wry said. I try to roll back the covers, the > > burkas. But many don't think its funny. > > > > Netemara > > > > ************** > > > > -- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: > > > Hi Brian. You seem to me like an interesting and intelligent person > > in many > > > ways, but in the way you are approaching this topic, I believe you > > could use > > > a little more discrimination. People will believe in all kinds of > > things. > > > They will often do this seemingly arbitrarily, but behind this, of > > course, > > > is a dynamic. Unless you come to understand the dynamic, you will > > > perpetually be pouring from the empty into the void. Is this how > > you want to > > > live your life? Is this sensible or meaningful? Think this over. > > > > > > As people, we are suggestible. There is a tendency to eternalize > > situations > > > and to want to believe this or that. There is a somewhat grave > > situation, > > > both politically and environmentally, on the planet earth, would > > you not > > > agree, but most people ARBITRARY believe they do not need to > > address this > > > problem "till tomorrow." Is this not true? I do this myself. You > > probably > > > do, too. > > > > > > Rule #1: Do not try to take anything away from someone unless you > > are able > > > to help them find something better to replace it with. You think > > you have > > > something better, reality and common sense, and I would agree, it > > probably > > > is better, but telling this is not enough. You need to SHOW it. You > > do not > > > say, "trust me. There is a reality which is better. Give up your > > belief and > > > then it will be there." This is what the wolf says to the chicken > > before he > > > eats it. No one will listen, and they should not, as to them, IT > > MAKES NO > > > SENSE, even though it does make sense to you. > > > > > > I do not care if Madame Blavatsky tricked people. If she did, I > > think it is > > > funny. Why do you care? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO FIND OUT? > The > > point I > > > personally would be interested in making is that it is not > > necessary to > > > look back. You would think this is a point everyone of us > > understands, but > > > we don't. Even I am looking back on irrelevant details the moment > > before I > > > bump into a telephone pole. > > > > > > Yes, there are many more Mormons than Theosophists. This is the > > fastest > > > growing religion on the planet earth. Joseph Smith did not need to > > provide > > > evidence of a certain nature, not does any one who is interested in > > > attracting a bunch of believers. You do not need to have evidence to > > > believe. What is your point? I suspect you are angry. Would you be > > angry at > > > a five year old for believing in the Easter bunny? I am not being > > sarcastic > > > when I say that this principle is very hard to understand,when > > applied to > > > adults, but it is not only valid but of prime importance. If you > > and I > > > understand this (and I am still struggling to understand and apply > > this in > > > my everyday life), we can turn our intelligence and energy to > > projects that > > > have more of a likelihood of succeeding, and in this way, maybe we > > can help > > > many people. Sincerely, Wry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:20 AM > > > Subject: Theos-World The "sources" of the letters, and > > the "staging" of > > > Blavatsky's "Masters." > > > > > > > > > > Wry: Joseph Smith, or whatever his name was, found the Book > > > > of Mormon on tablets of pure gold which he dug up in the > ground. > > To > > > > me this is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > Brian: There are indeed many more believing Mormons then > people > > > > believe the "Mahatma Letters" have been created out of tin air, > > as Daniel > > > > Caldwell and Dallas/Dalval keep suggesting. > > > > > > > > Like Smith and the Golden Tablets, Blavatsky did not provide > > > > documentary or other real evidence for her sources. Including > > that there > > > > are no reliable reports of someone for example having seen any > > of the > > > > so called "Mahatmas" while writing any of these letters. > > > > > > > > Instead we do have reports like that Hume and Sinnett at first > > didn`t feel > > > > that the letters met with the standards of a Master. In the place > > of > > > > answers to their metaphysical questions they received constant > > > > injunctions to be kind and understanding to HPB. "You can hardly > > be too > > > > indulgent with her," Mahatma Koot Hoomi told them, and for a > while > > > > they obeyed him. > > > > > > > > The Mahatma Letters played with notions of their own > > fictitiousness in > > > > sophisticated ways, calling attention to the Mahatmas` status as > > > > inventive inventions: having been "`invented` ourselves," the > > Masters > > > > noted, they "repay the inventors by inventing" increasingly > > > > complicated "imaginary" doctrines as a way of avoiding > > accusations of > > > > inconsistency or internal contradiction in their teachings. (KH > > to Sinnet, > > > > Letter No. 24B) > > > > > > > > Distressed by Blavatskys intermediary role in the communications, > > Hume > > > > and Sinnet decided to send a letter to the "Maha Chohan," another > > > > Master, asking to correspond directly without the meddling hand > of > > > > Blavatsky. Giving the sealed letter to Blavatsky for forwarding > > as usual. > > > > She retired to her room with it, supposedly intending to play the > > piano > > > > while magically precipitating the envelope to its destination, > > but a very > > > > different kind of music was heard from the room a few minutes > > later, > > > > when she emerged screaming betrayal and treason, having > opened the > > > > letter and read it. > > > > > > > > See also: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mhoax.html > > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 09 20:45:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 04:45:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 74207 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 04:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 04:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 04:45:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 04:45:42 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 04:45:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ghosts, seances and spirits: the Blavatsky affect on Yeats? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 477 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I have close to ten books on Yeats and tried to find the ones which talk about his ties to, early on, the TS. And it seems he got so wacky that they asked him to leave....He insisted on talking to spirits and the like and was always pressing HPB to do phenomena and his personality was eccentric to say the least, and finally some of the members booted him out. I have tons of references on him and his wierd self. He ended up getting in to ghosts, seances and spirits From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 09 23:43:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 07:43:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 90816 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 07:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 07:43:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 07:43:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 07:43:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:43:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI APOLOGIZES FOR MISUNDERSTANDING Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DCD9424.97A3CDF3@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 797 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.1 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > ADDRESSING, AND SIGN YOUR EMAIL. THIS MORNING THIS EMAIL CAUSED > > CONFUSION IN MY PERSONAL ASSISTANT (I AM DISABLED), > > Have your assistant look at the following web site: > > http://www.simtel.net/pub/pd/9111.html > > It is free software that reads your email out loud to you. THANKYOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL SUGGESTION MR. LIDOFSKY. I WILL CERTAINLY PURSUE IT. I HAVE JUST RECEIVED A DONATED NEW COMPUTER WITH SPEAKERS, AND A SOUND CARD IN IT, AND HAVE ORDERED A VOICE RECOGNITION SYSTEM, SO HOPEFULLY I WILL MAKE FEWER MISTAKES DUE TO READING PROBLEMS, AND BE MORE PRODUCTIVE IN KEEPING-UP WITH MY CORRESPONDANCE AND OTHER WRITING OBLIGATIONS. PAX AND PREMA, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sun Nov 10 00:01:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 08:01:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 36078 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 08:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 08:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 08:01:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 08:01:46 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:01:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: welcoming fellow seekers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 31734 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.1 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn --- In theos-talk@y..., "Eldon B Tucker" wrote: > My first thought when reading the post by Gowsami was that here > was another fictional character made up by Brigitte, so I did a > quick search of the Internet and see that there really is someone > with that name. There is. He did not introduce himself very > fully, so I found something about him at the following site. > > bhaktiananda> DEAR MR. TUCKER, PLEASE ACCEPT MY OBEISANCES AND THANKS FOR YOUR KIND AND WELCOMING LETTER. BELOW IS A BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF MYSELF THAT IS MORE RELEVANT TO THEOSOPHISTS AND THE ISSUES AT HAND. THE BIO SKETCH ON THE GALVA SITE IS EXCERPTED FROM ONE MORE FOCUSED ON MY MEDICAL, SCIENTIFIC, GENDER- STUDIES AND HUMAN SERVICES BACKGROUND. IT IS ALSO VOICED SPECIFICALLY TO THE VAISHNAVA COMMUNITY, IN WHICH I AM A RESPECTED GURU. PAX AND PREMA ! BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI............SEE BIO NOTES BELOW (PLEASE EXCUSE THE FORMATING, AS IT WAS TYPED BY SOME BEGINNING VOLUNTEERS) RELIGIOUS STUDIES AND PRACTICE A BRIEF BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF TRIDANDI SANNYASI HH BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA Inter-religious and Interdisciplinary Study, Practice and Ministry HH Tridandi Sannyasi Bhakti Ananda Goswami Maharaja is a 'triune staffed' (Tridandi) renunciate and siksha guru (instructing master) in the ancient and venerable Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya (lineage) of Vaishnavism. Raised as a Protestant Christian, he began studying Old Testament History in the mid 1960s and discovered that the Jewish Deity Eli-Yahu was the Egyptian Deity Heri-Vasu, Greek Deity Heli-Us and Vaishnava Deity Hari-Vasu (Krishna-Vishnu). Following Biblical evidence, he took up the study of Vedic Related Bhakti Traditions, eventually focusing his studies on Radha-Krishna centric Vaishnavism, because of its antiquity and central importance in all the related ancient Bridal Mysticism Revelatory Traditions. Becoming a student of the Bridal Mysticism Gaudiya Tradition Vaishnava Saint A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, all his questions regarding the connections he had observed between 'Bridal Mysticism' in the Judeo-Catholic Traditions and Vaishnavism were answered. Finding the authentic Bhakti Scriptures of Vaishnavism an endless source of both inspiration and HISTORICAL AND THEOLOGICAL CONNECTIONS to other global Bhakti Traditions, he worked to create a college curriculum for comparative global inter-bhakti studies. Thus, as a practioner of bhakti yoga, and as an historian of religion and theologian, he has focused on the worship and study of historically related, Nama-Rupa Bhakti Yoga Traditions for nearly forty years now. In his own practice, he took his first public solemn vows of religious life thirty years ago. Continuing his sadhana as both a Catholic and a Vaishnava, after his children were adults, he eventually he took the traditional Vaishnava vows of vanaprastha (a retired hermit forest-dweller) and finally the vows of a sannyasi. His traditional Vedic Agni Hotra fire sacrifice and sannyasi ordination ceremony was performed and his sannyasi name and titles confered upon him from the Madhva- Gaudiya-Bhaktivedanta lineage of Vaishnavism, by His Holiness Tridandi Sannyasi Srila Radhanath Swami of Mumbai, India. Bhakti Ananda Goswami has been a sannyasi for 10 years now, and although he is connected by lineage to the Gaudiya Sampradaya, he is not at present affiliated with any Gaudiya-related institutions, except the World Vaishnava Association of Vrindavana india. Rather that put his meager energies into the propagation of a single Vaishnava lineage, he has founded an ecumenical association, with the goal of fostering global inter-Vaishnava and inter-Bhakti mutual respect and ministerial cooperation. His long personal service in the social justice, human rights and human services fields has given him a great burden on his heart for the real sufferings of humanity. So he is not an ivory-tower academic, but instead, despite his disability, remains an activist involved in day-to day ministery to those in need. A MASTER OF NAMA-RUPA DIVINE LOVE TRADITIONS Bhakti Ananda Goswami has contemplated thousands of Names and Forms ( Nama-Rupa) of Godhead and the Feminine Divine from hundreds of ancient religious cultures. During his global pilgrimage into the past, he has immersed himself in various cultures' worship of the ONE SUPREME GOD / ESS of salvific grace and divine love. Submitting himself humbly at the feet of the saints of the various authentic ancient bhakti traditions, Bhakti Ananda Goswami received the Maha Mantra, The Gaudiya Gayatri, The Vedic Hymns, The 108 Names of Krishna, The Thousand Names of Vishnu, The 108 Names of Nara Hari, The 108 Names of Radha Rani, various Sri (Laxmi) Ganga Ma and Sarasvati Litanies, Namo Sada Shivaya and various Shiva Murugan and Ganesha Litanies, various Tara Durga Parvati Uma Kali and Shakti Litanies, The Hebrew Names of Eli-Yahu and Shekinah (Hari-Vasu and Shakti), The Greek Names Dies-piter Polieus and Tyche (Helios Kouros and Rhoda ie Krishna and Radha), The Roman Names of Jupiter Juvenalis and Juno Juventas ( Krishna Yauvana and Radha Yauvani), The Nilo-Saharan Egyptian Names of Heri ( Hari) and Wasu-Theos (Vasu- deva / Vishnu), The Nigerian Names of Olu (The Orisha), The Avestan Names of Ahura Mazda-Zervan / Hvarena and the later Names of Mithras, The Nepalese Tibetan Chinese Korean and Japanese Names of Pure Land Buddhism's Tri Kaya ( Trinity), The 99 Names of Allah, Catholic Names of God and Mary from African Eastern and European Rites, various litanies of Christ, and related Names and prayers of Asclepius-Serapis-Caraka, and many other Names of the Lord and His Shakti from various ancient traditions of both the East and West. When possible B.A. Goswami actually received The Holy Name through the traditional shiksha and diksha devotional means. For example, in addition to his Catholic Baptism and Confirmation and private vows, and Vaishnava vows of religious life, he received initiation into the mysteries of the recitation of the Japanese Pure Land Buddhist Nembutsu in the inner sanctum of the High Altar of the Asakusa Kannon Temple in Tokyo Japan. He received the 99 Names of Allah from Sufi Master Mohammad P. Casim in Sri Lanka. He received the mantra of Amitabha Buddha as the Tibetan Chen Rei Zei at Svayambhunath near Kathmandu Nepal, and Namo Shivayah at the compound of the Temple of Pasupatinatha in Kathmandu Nepal. He prayed for empowerment to study the Vedas in Pokhara Nepal, the traditional birth place of Srila Vyasadeva, and he prayed for Kaviraja Hanuman's poetic empowerment to describe the pastimes and glories of Lord Ramachandra at the Temple of Hanuman in Ayodhya India. Studying the sacred etymology of the Holy Name, and the revelatory symbology of the Rupa of the Lord and Shekinah / Shakti, he learned to read ancient scriptures and inscriptions, to trace the origins, uses and diffusion of religious words Deity Names, theophoric personal names and symbols through world religious history. Vows of self sacrifice in Vrindavana In Vrindavan India, he wept and lay in the dust at the samadhi tomb of his beloved Diksha Guru Srila Prabhupada, and prayed for the strength, despite his life-threatening illness, to carry on the non-sectarian unifying bhaktiyoga mission of the great Vaishnava reformer and Bridal Mysticism Master Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There at Krishna-Balarama Mandir, approaching Lord Balarama (the Vedic Purusha Yupa Dhvaja and Biblical Yahu-Bal as the Cosmic Messiah), Who is the Second Person of the Godhead, and Savior of all worlds, he begged for Sri Jesu-Balarama's limitless compassion on all beings, and Lord Balarama's own desire to protect and save all souls. He prayed for Sri Balarama to burn up all his separate desiring in the fire of HIS SELF-SACRIFICING DIVINE LOVE, so that the ashes of HIS MERCY would be all that was left. Thus renouncing every other desire in this world or the next, B. A. Goswami vowed to realize in his own embodied life the words of the hymn 'His Mercy is all that i am made of'', and to become a reconciling intercessor and spiritual refuge of mercy for all fallen souls. Thus he confirmed himself in the service of Lord Balarama, the Original Spiritual Master, Who as the Rig Vedic Purusha Yupa Dhvaja is the Self-Sacrificed Redeemer of every cosmic manifestation. Realizing that it is impossible to get the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (or Sri Sri Radha-Govinda), without first getting the mercy of Sri Nityananda Balarama (or Lord Baladeva), he purposed to fix himself eternally at the feet of Sri Baladeva, The Universal Messiah, Who is the Way, Truth and Life of all divine endeavor. Knowing Sri Baladeva to be the Second Person of the Mediterranean, African, Semitic, Indic, Asian and Amerindian Transcendent-Incarnating-Immanent Godhead / Trinity, B.A. Goswami vowed to glorify Him in His infinite Nama and Rupa as the descending Savior of all vyuhas, lokas / worlds, beings and nations /'races'. Continuing pilgrimages and initiations In Bhakti Ananda's continuing pilgrimages, in Sri Lanka he visited the traditional sites of Sita's captivity, and the Temple of Perumal at Kataragama. With a very ill body, and no money or prior contacts, he often traveled alone facing great hardship and danger, making pilgrimages to numerous ancient Buddhist, Vaishnava, Shaivite and Shakti temples, shrines and important archeological sites in Japan, Sri Lanka, India, and Nepal. The many miraculous stories of his pilgrim- ages cannot be told . He received the Chinese Pure Land Invocation of AmitoFho from Taiwanese Pure Land Buddhists. In Greece he learned the invocation of 'Christe Anaste!' and received the 'Jesus Prayer' from Catholic Eastern Rite monks. Everywhere he went he sought-out saintly persons and submitted himself to them for instruction, service and their blessings. Accepting Jesus Christ as Yahu-Bal Yupa Dhvaja Purusha Raised as a non-denominational Protestant Christian, he studied the origins of Christianity in great depth, becoming an expert on the proto-Catholic Heliopolitan Asyla Federations (Afro-Helleno- Semitic Vaishnava, Shaivite and Shakti temple alliances) in the ancient Mediterranean Region. His deep understanding of these monotheistic bhakti yoga asyla federations, their worship of the Seraphic Great Physician (Asclepius-Serapis- YahuBal Nahustan and Balarama as Caraka), and their evolution into the Communion of Rites in Catholic Christianity, led him into a profound appreciation of the historical UNITY of the many Polieus and Tyche related Rites of the Catholic Apostolic traditions. Thus, as a Christian, he sought full communion with Jesus Purusha / Polieus in the present unity of His Mystical Social Body, the Apostolic Catholic Communion of Rites. Initially following textual leads regarding the Great Physician and related Purusha / Polieus traditions, he tied numerous ancient Polieus city federations together and traced the worship of Purusha / Polieus as the Great Physician all the way to the Pure Land Buddhist cult of the Ayur-vedic related Medicine Buddha Incarnation of Lokeshvara as Yakushi ji at Nara in Japan. DISCIPLINE, RELIGIOUS AND SCIENTIFIC In every case, as B. A. Goswami prayerfully sought to receive the darshan and realization (vision and personal relationship with) the Personality-Form (Rupa) of the Lord or Shakti revealed in / by / through a particular authentic tradition of Their Revelatory Holy Name, he humbly submitted himself to the principle of Guru, Shastra and Sadhu in his quest. Submitting himself to authentic authorities, and with respect for both the rigorous disciplines of Eastern sadhana and Western science, he studied the history, scriptures, doctrines, rites / liturgies, sacraments, practices, coinage, sacred arts and social order, religio-political alliances and many other things related to the Lord's or Shakti's particular Nama and Rupa. His both faithful and conservative interdisciplinary scientific approach to understanding the history of religion bore fruit in amazing realizations and discoveries. Thus, by the grace of the Supreme Lord, and the Holy Mother, through exhaustive and rigorously disciplined interdisciplinary study, he has been able to positively confirm some the important global INTER-RELIGIOUS IDENTITY of THEIR various related Names and Forms amongst Their children in the worlds' great devotional (bhakti) traditions. Work and vows in the service of reconciliation Devoted to the cause of reconciliation between the devotees of the related Bhakti Traditons of the world, Bhakti Ananda Goswami has become a well-learned repository and guardian of unifying truth and sacred traditions, a vowed cosmic trash-burner / incinerator for bad karma / sins, and a harbor of love and mercy and forgiving-ness for all souls and repentant sinners who approach him. He does not initiate disciples due to his vow to accept everyone unconditionally. Thus he is known as a Shiksha or Instructing Master in the ancient and venerable Bridal Mysticism Brahma-Gaudiya Sampradaya (lineage) of Vaishnavism. In 2002 the World Vaishnava Association (Vrindavana India) requested him to organize and lead the first ever official Orthodox Vaishnava interfaith project. Despite his severe health problems, he has been attempting to serve in this demanding capacity. A GUARDIAN OF SACRED TRADITIONS Always wary of ancient sources being redacted and polluted with modern corruptions, he has sought out the most ancient and authentic forms of each tradition to learn from. Thus he has studied as much as possible in the ancient source-materials themselves, in both non-controversial transliterations, translations and even in the original languages when possible. As a result of this conservative approach, his discoveries on this path of humility and discipline have led him to a recognition of the universal validity of the religious principle of 'Guru Shastra and Sadhu' (GSS). In other words, authenticity in 'revealed' or bhakti religions is preserved in any tradition by the checks-and-balances of some system of 1) GURU contemporary master, who exemplifies a tradition, and teaches in the contemporary or understood language of the student 2) SHASTRA the written or oral tradition of history and theology particular to the tradition, and 3) SADHU the lineage of saint-exemplars and scholar-commentators in the tradition. Together these three elements preserve the authenticity of 'revealed' devotional / bhakti traditions. The principle of GSS also applies in the preservation, generational communication and geographical diffusion of non- religious traditions as well. This 'scriptural' and 'apostolic' system of checks-and-balances disciplines the methodology and language, defines and expands the knowledge base, and preserves the integrity and continuity of authentic real-world teaching traditions. Credibility and responsibility, integrity and mastery are all defined and assured in an authentic tradition via the observance of the checks and balances of GSS. Real historical traditions have real-world traceable histories. Their adherents are honored to identify themselves with their real-world human heritage. Thus, in India for example, every major and most minor theistic and non-theistic traditions have a pararmpara, or sampradaya, an apostolic lineage that is authoritative for their tradition. Bhakti Ananda Goswami has become an expert on this subject, and is concerned that persons studying eastern traditions through the filter of 'esoteric', neo-Gnostic and New Age "master" fictitious traditions are being cheated. To the contrary of real historical traditions, and their legitimately ancient literatures, spurious non-historical (fictional) 'traditions' cannot legitimately claim any real-world past GSS. These dishonest, fraudulent concocted 'lineages' of 'master' imposters appropriate things of real value from real GSS historical traditions, and without properly respecting or crediting their sources, or submitting to any discipline or standard of knowledge, realization or behavior / accountability, use and abuse what they have appropriated. Experiencing that many people have become victimized by such deception, with much suffering as a result, B.A. Goswami has helped many people to escape the web of illusions spun by the deceptive abusers of sacred tradition. As a real human (not imaginary) master of ancient GSS tradition, Bhakti Ananda Goswami has carried on a campaign to expose those guilty of appropriating, plagiarizing, corrupting, misrepresenting and otherwise abusing the classical literatures, iconography and language etc. of authentic historical GSS traditions. He has challenged the historicity of so-called ascended masters and the control of such 'master'-channeling individuals and organizations over the lives of their credulous believers. A life of respect for the real Preferring real-world history to the fictional histories of imaginary masters, Bhakti Ananda Goswami has concerned himself with studying the lives and teachings of real masters and saints in real-world ancient traditions. He has chosen to identify himself not with incorporeal modern fictitious 'ascended masters', but with the ancient lineages of real corporeal historical persons. Thus as a Christian, he is an initiated in one of the Catholic Rites, as a Vaishnava, he belongs to one of the ancient orthodox lineages, as a Buddhist, he is a 'Pure Land' practitioner in several traditions, as a devotee of Allah (Ali in Aramaic is Hari), his association is with the personalist pro-incarnational, proto-Koranic Sattvic, Personalist form of Sufism. In the same way he identifies with the most authentic and ascetic / pious and devotional forms of historically authentic Judaism, Shaivism, Shaktism, etc. In every case he has sought to directly study these traditions, and study IN these authentic traditions, and has thus avoided all the distortions and compromises of these traditions found in either earlier or modern syncretistic or so-called 'gnostic', esoteric and new age corruptions of authentic traditions. MORALITY, HOLINESS AND SERVICE B. A. Goswami affirms that the universal moral ideal of the authentic Great Bhakti Traditions has always been sattvic or pietistic and ascetic / holy. Thus he is personally committed to the sattvic discipline of traditional Vaishnava bhakti yoga, and primitive Catholic asceticism, and observes the traditional vows of ahimsa and no flesh eating, chastity, no intoxication and no gambling, truthfulness, mercifulness, moral cleanliness, voluntary simplicity, humility, maintaining a disciplined spirit, and willingness to accept sacrifices and austerities in the service of souls and Godhead. In addition, as in Pure Land Buddhist and Catholic Tradition, many years ago he took the bodhi-heart vow of compassion to offer all his 'karmic' merit and all his sufferings for the salvation of all beings. Thus as a matter of vowed tapasya, he offers up at least 6 hours of intercessory prayer a day, and all his other sacrifices for the well-being of others. Bhakti Ananda Goswami does not initiate disciples, but unconditionally accepts any person he offers intercessory prayer for. He lives an austere and simple life in an ancient forest, with centuries-old trees, lions, bear, deer and other wild creatures visiting his hermitage. As as a hermit, he spends most of his time in study, personal counseling and ministry, teaching (via correspondence and phone) and intercessory prayer. He has never been interested in having followers, has no self-promoting organization, has never accepted any guru-puja, and has never solicited or personally accepted any monies for his services. Any unsolicited offerings sent to him have either been sent back, or used through a non-profit all-volunteer organization in the service of others. Due to serious chronic illness, he is rarely able to receive guests, to travel or make public appearances. In recent years due to the late effects of childhood polio, he has been cared for by his parents, son and daughter and their spouses and children, or friends. Recently his daughter has been trying to build an internet web site to make his extensive research on the global history of Salvific Bhakti (Divine Love and Grace) Traditons available to people of good-will seeking unity world-wide. During his years of study, he accumulated over 150 volumes worth of research on the ancient historical connections between the religious traditions of the East and West. However, due to his disability, because he was forced to do his degree and later work on tape and in nearly illegible handwritiing, this body of research remains unorganized, untyped, not computerized and unpublished. RELIGIOUS STUDIES AND ACADEMIC BACKGROUND Before becoming more disabled by post-polio-syndrome, B.A. Goswami lectured extensively in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu Conference co-sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, and held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. There he was a guest of the Sri Lankan Government and the Minister of Religion, and was given a tour of many of the most important archeological sites in Sri Lanka. At the conference he was elevated from an academic delegate to a "Religious Dignitary" and seated with the 'popes' and heads of Indic religions, sampradayas and maths. This was done at the request of real masters in attendance, who recognized the unique contribution of his knowledge and spirituality in the cause of reconciliation between their diverse traditions. He also received scores of invitations from scholars to visit and teach in their countries and at their institutions. Unfortunately due to his poor heath he was unable to continue traveling after the completion of his contracted college travel-study, which included his participation in the Sri Lankan Conference. As a result, he was unable to accept any of these invitations. While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he was invited by the former Prime Minister of Nepal, the Right Honorable Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to sit on the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, under the Patronage of His Majesty King Birendra of Nepal. This he did, and worked on the Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non-proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the United Nations. In Nepal and India, he again received the blessings and honor of serving Vaishnava, Shaivite, Shakti, Sikh, Sufi and Buddhist Gurus and Saints, including the respected Vaishnava Leaders Dr. Rup Lal Batra, and Dr. Acharya Prabhakar Mishra, who made him an Honorary International Coordinating Secretary of the Universal Sanatana Dharma Foundation, and invited him to address the next Plenary Session of the World Fellowship of Religions in India, as the Keynote Speaker. Regrettably due to illness B.A.Goswami was unable to accept these, or hundreds of other invitations or opportunities for service. With great physical austerity, he did. however successfully complete his college independent field-study contract, which had the duo-focus of interdisciplinary field studies in the history of religion, and in the applied theology of religious social organization, social justice, human rights and human services. This exhaustive project was undertaken for his B.A, degree, and it was recognized by the faculty of his college, that he was already doing graduate level work when he started his B.A. program. Considered intellectually gifted, he was in a special university program for geniuses,doing college-level research in his high school days. The son and part-time assistant to a research electrobiophysicist father and a mother with a M.A. degree in education, he was blessed with an excellent education, and a background in science and research. After a unique and successful college career, during which he received a 4.0 grade average, scholarships and the respect and praise of faculty for designing and fulfilling an interdisciplinary curriculum contract in inter-bhakti studies, he successfully completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary extended (two year) master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion and theology. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain his Degree. Subsequently disabled and physically isolated by illness, Bhakti Ananda Goswami has not been able to publish his work, and has had few practical opportunities to widely distribute his knowledge. On only several occasions in the last ten years has he been able to speak publicly on his discoveries. In 1993, as co-founder of the academic Arcadian Institute, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. The next year he contributed a chapter on asceticism in Catholic history to an important Catholic collection of essays on Catholic moral theology and ecology ( EMBRACING EARTH, Orbis Press.) His next major effort to get his historical discoveries out, took him to visit with Vaishnava scholars in Berkley California USA, where he was blessed as a Vaishnava Master to serve Sri Subhadra Devi on Her chariot, during the most holy festival of Ratha Yatra. After that trip, he again became incommunicado for some years, due to continued severe health problems. BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI'S RARE PUBLIC LECTURE TOUR IN 2000 In 2000, Bhakti Ananda Goswami received the kind assistance of an interfaith alliance of devotees, in giving a West Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, Greek, Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. An expert on the devotional traditions of ancient Egypt, and the relationship of these to Judaism and the cult of Rhoda and Kouros Helios and Dionysus on the Island of Rhodes, he organized an exhibit tour for some of his students at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of the Sun" Exhibit. For his tour lecture booklet, he received permission from the Exhibit organizer and copyright owner of the Akhenaten images collection and the world's premier Jewish miniature artifact collection, to use images from the "Pharaohs of the Sun " Exhibit , and the text "Gods. Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel" for comparison in his lecture series. Thus he was able to show the relationship between Afro-Egyptian, Israelite and Jewish, Heliopolitan Greek, Vaishnava and Pure-Land Buddhist Deity Names, Symbols and Forms. As a result of this tour, he was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist connections at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic conference held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000. His presentations were made to a standing-room-only crowd in the largest lecture hall of the conference. he recieved and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single scholar could challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. Hindu scholars stayed after his presentation and visited his dorm room over the weekend to ask him numerous questions about his discoveries. Following this major conference, there was a full-page article in the News-India Times about his work, and he was invited to give holy day homilies on the Bharat Darshan RBC South Asian Radio Network Show. Thus, as a result, he has given commercially uninterupted sermons up to a half- hour long, on such High Holy Days and Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to hundreds of thousands of RBC Radio listeners. So, by the grace of the Lord and Our Lady, B.A. Goswami, a professed Catholic, has been able from his bed in his hermitage in the great forest, to speak over the phone through the radio to countless souls around the world, explaining things like the historical relationship between the Jewish Nazarites' ritual bathing, Catholic Baptism and the Vaishnava and Shaivite Traditions of bathing in the Ganges to wash away sin. Unfortunately he had to give up these regular radio sermons, due to post polio vocal muscle fatigue and failure. Due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week West Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several months, and after months of physical therapy with a speech pathologist and voice therapist, only miraculously regained some use of his vocal chords the very day that his East Coast tour began at the World Association of Vedic Studies Conference in New Jersey USA. He was invited there to present two of his papers at the WAVES conference, one on the general East-West Bhakti connections, and one more specifically focused on the Egyptian Heliopolitan-related Bridal Mysticism connections between Radha-Krishna Vaishnavism and the Mediterranean indigenous Vaishnava origins of Judeo-Catholic Tradition. Delivering his papers, he showed indisputable evidence of connections between the Bridal Mysticism tradition of Radha and Krishna, and the pre-historic inter-racial cult of Rhoda and Kouros on the Isle of Rhodes. Presenting his papers, he also showed abundant interdisciplinary proof of direct connections between the Biblical Song of Songs Eli-Yahu and Shekinah Bridal Mysticism Tradition, the pre- historic (emerging circa 3000 BC) worship of Helios and Rhoda on the Mediterranean Isle of Rhodes, Egyptian Actis Heliopolitan Monotheism and the Eastern Worship of Hari-Vasu (Krishna-Vishnu) and Radha- Shakti. In addition to all this, he gave further evidence of connection to both sattvic theistic Shaivism and salvific Pure Land Buddhism. After the conference, he visited with Vaishnava and other devotees in 5 states. His body was so exhausted after this two weeks, that when he was delayed in the air on the way home, unable to land for hours due to a severe storm, upon landing, he was removed from the plane by medics. He was kept in the airport first-aid station for hours, while a decision was reached by the authorities, whether to let him get back on a plane, or to send him to a hospital. By the Lord's Mercy, after several hours on oxygen monitoring, he recovered enough to continue the journey home, where his daughter was waiting to take care of him. Having suffered oxygen deprivation and serious circulatory problems on this trip, hich required months to recover from, B,A. Swami is now reluctant to attempt any more trips. Therefore it is unlikely that he will be able to attend the upcoming World Vaishnava Association, World Council of Elders, World Association for Vedic Studies, or any other scholastic or religious events. He is also no longer able to do radio programs, or much counseling over the phone. Due to intermittant oxyhen deprivation, he also suffers from failing eyesight and periodic central vision loss. This has recently necessitated his withdrawal from participation in various kinds of visual communication. However he does hope, by the grace of God Ess, and Their devotees, to continue to be of some personal service to the many individuals he counsels and prays for on a daily basis. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 10 00:13:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 08:13:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 29091 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 08:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 08:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 08:13:07 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.d0.2fad0cd0 (3972) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:12:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:12:55 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Try this. http://www.google.com/search?client=googlet&q=Forbidden%20Archeology In a message dated 11/09/02 8:11:29 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Dallas wrote: <ARCHAEOLOGY?>> > >Dallas, I'm still waiting for it to come out in paperback. >do you happen to know if any of it is available on line? > >Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 10 02:35:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 10:35:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 19697 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 10:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 10:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 10:35:02 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.111.1b7a26f4 (3972) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:34:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <111.1b7a26f4.2aff9053@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:34:59 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Gerald, Leon, and . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Since my name (linked with Gerald) was mentioned in this cross post for no reason I can think of -- especially since I am not a contributor to Theos-1 (nor is Gerald to this one) -- I thought I might answer it with the comment that, maybe, besides cross posting gratuitous opinions (although, at least, somewhat coherent) from someone else, you should think about what you know before you write down in incomprehensible vagaries what you don't know. As for your comment that my interest in the scientific/theosophical metaphysics and Cosmogenesis, and their correlation with current science (that is the root of ALL of HPB's teachings in the SD, including karma and reincarnation, consciousness and matter, mind and body, etc.) is "not more realistically about" theosophy... Why don't you tell us what you think theosophy really is "more "realistically about"? Have you any idea why the SD was subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion and Philosophy?" And, why HPB said that without a *thorough* understanding of the three fundamental principles (with the scientific laws being the essence of the second "linking" principle) the entire teachings of theosophy would make no sense whatsoever? And, why she also said that theosophy, taken on faith alone, without scientific and philosophical understanding and conviction would be nothing more than another religious dogma destined to die on the vine? Maybe you should go back to a serious study of those principles and the laws of nature that links them, rather than speculating (fantasizing) about "realities" -- whether physical, moral or ethical -- that have their roots in fundamental truths... All of them dependent upon a logically consistent and immutable, scientific metaphysics that can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt (when "experienced" in proper meditation) that the Universe, as "Father, Mother and Son," is neither infinite nor finite, eternal nor non eternal, existent or non existent, self nor not self, empty nor full, one nor many, abstract nor concrete, etc. -- but, in each (and every) case -- both. LHM In a message dated 11/09/02 8:39:09 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Gerald wrote: << Duality is relatively easy to understand >with polar opposites like up and down, and beauty and >ugliness. Also, we all understand left and right, and male >and female. We pretty much take these dualities for >granted. But manas has a much harder time with some >other dualities like existence and nonexistence for >example, or self and not-self. The basic polar opposites >of Space and Motion are also not clearly understood by >manas, and usually require experiential knowledge.>> > >And, while we're on that subject, what about those >people and Theosophists who . . . (how should one put >it?) occasionally tend to give the impression (to some of >us?) that they can't see the forest for the trees . . . That is, >as I see it, (or tend to see it), the study of Theosophy, in >particular, might be somewhat better accomplished or >entered into with a kind of two-tiered approach: > >1. as per one's realization of the dualistic, literalistic (or >"exoteric") aspects of one's study, and, 2. while keeping >in mind that the dualistic aspects of one's studies can only >be, at best, the dualistic or exoteric "aspects or versions" >that were created as per one's notions about "relevance >re the underlying esoteric/experiential reality" (not that >that "relevance" can ever have a "direct enough" >relationship with what is categorically at least far less >dualistic, apparently?) > >For example, why is it that when I read many of Leon's >posts, I tend to feel that his scientizing comes across to >me as if he doesn't realize that, while modeling might be a >nice hobby, that's not, after all, what Theosophy is more >realistically about. I see Theosophy as a medium by >which one might in some way transcend dualistic notions >not by creating more of dualistic/exoteric modeling, but >by reading between the lines of one's world, as opposed >to getting trapped by them . . . > >Or do some of us (Leon, Gerald?) create more lines and >models with the objective of then having more of them to >read between . . . ^:-) Well, whatever turns one on, I >suppose . . . Not that I see anything wrong with being >creative. And I tend to think one can, optionally, read >between the lines of a vast array of creative efforts, some >of which may appear ("on the surface") to have no >particularly "direct" relationship with Theosophy (but >may be, in some sense, even more intimately related?). > >But I suspect that as long as Theosophists confine their >studies and attitudes within certain literalistic guidelines >(which approach may, of course, be perfectly >appropritate for some Theosophists, in consideration of >where they're at, "on their Path" . . .), then such literalism >will confine their studies, might even tend to keep them >from as much speculating about whatever transcendent >aspects/relevance they might be inclined to at least >speculate about if they were less hampered, >brainwashed, hypnotized by their current worldview. > ><purification. I think that your definition of sin as "doing >wrong as judged by ones conscience" is good. Sin is also >closely connected to ignorance. We usually do wrong out >of ignorance of the consequences. In Christianity, we >alleviate sin through atonement. On a Path, we alleviate >sin through purification. Tantric Buddhism, for example, >is considered a "fast track" Path, and if you look closely >most of its rituals involve purifications. The thrust of >purification rituals or yogic exercises is to raise our >self-image from a human "sinner" to a "spark of the >divine flame;" to raise our sense of identity from human >to divine, from mortal to immortal. >> > >"Sin?" Something to do with "wrongdoing"? If >Theosophy is seen in terms of reasoning that unifies >"self" and "other people," then (obviously?) one can only >do wrong to oneself . . . So here's a little experiment: > >1. get a friend to place their thumb on a sturdy stake. > >2. hit frinds thumb with hammer. > >3. ouch (says friend, not you). > >4. wait for the karmic repercussions of said ouch >from friend. > >5. keep waiting. > >6. don't forget what you're waiting for even after many >lifetimes. > >7. If you forget what you're waiting for (as in many >cases, apparently?) don't assume that you're not waiting >for anything. > >8. Eventually, when you finally get around to, say, >karmically hitting yourself, or being hit (eg, on your "own >thumb," with a hammer, say), don't assume . . . > >9. don't assume what . . . ? (not for me to say) > >10. in any case, this experiment, when carried out as >described, ought to demonstrate something about the >difference between karma and self . . . (maybe?): > >11. this experiment demonstrated (didn't it?) that by >studying Theosophy and karmaself (and "related >subjects" as per "esoteric/exoteric" and "Theosophy" . . >.), one ought to come to the realization that, though there >is an apparent, or creative, connection between "karma" >and "self," (the quotes as per allowance toward that >creative/interpretive component) they are, nevertheless, >two different things in terms of dualistic and >non-dualistic, in the sense that, of the two, only the "self" >is generally seen (I think?) as associated with the >potential to transcend "itself" on a Path toward Beness. > >12. that kind of realization might help in setting one on a >path that might be less bound by dualistic principles. >Maybe? > >13. finished with hitting one's thumb, etc, and after >realizing that karmaself is mayavic, one becomes >enlightened. > >14. That's it. And . . . > ><was tempted by the Devil. He had enough experiential >knowledge so that if he wanted to use it for personal >gain, he could. This is a temptation that we must all face. >In order to be a bodhisattva, we each have to deny the >Devil's temptation for personal rewards. Becoming a >bodhisvattva is not easy, and it requires a commitment of >time and effort. But it is the right thing to do, and >speaking in an evolutionary sense it is the ultimate goal >that we are all striving toward, and have been for >countless lifetimes. >> > >Or, optionally (?), we might try on the view that >"advancement," (as per whatever shape, form, >terminology), is closely enough allied with a certain >innate wisdom to not hit oneself in the thumb, or any >other place . . . That way, how can one not fail to make >some kind of meaningful progress . . . well, at least in >"exoteric terms," for a start . . . Of course (?), on the >other hand (or same hand?), one might discover that >there are so many different ways that one can, in effect, >hammer one's thumb or whatever . . . > ><outset, but you gain back in proportion to what you >expend. And after treading a Path for awhile, you >will find that the effort required becomes less and less, >and that eventually it becomes effortless.>> > >Right, sems it's been a while since I last hammered my >thumb . . . Hmm. ^:-) Actually, seeing as there might be >so many different ways that one can hammer oneself, >well . . . ^:-) . . . That's my symbol for a stumped guy >scratching his head (not that I regard myself as "TOO >stumped," "really," but/"but" . . . "well") > ><> > >I suppose those bodhisattvas know about the various >ways that one can hammer oneself, so . . . easy for them >to say, apparently . . . > ><the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with >Commentary by Jamgon Mipham, trans >Padmakara Trans Group, Shambala, 2002): > >"For they are born the offspring of the Tathagatas. >Three fetters they have utterly forsworn. >Fulfilled in supreme joy, these Bodhisattvas have >The power to shake a hundred worlds." (p 60) > >To which Mipham, a Ningma Dzogchen Master, >comments: > >"(1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends the levels of >ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The >Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of >the family of Tathagatas; they will never more stray to >other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible. (2) The >Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of >the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to >abandon the three fetters: the view of the transitory >composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical >discipline, and doubt--together with all the obscurtaions >eliminated on the path of seeing. (3) Because they >have attained the sublime qualities of realization and >have eliminated all defects, the Bodhisattvas experience >an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is >called Perfect Joy. (4) At the same time, the Bodhisattvas >acquire one hundred and twelve powers, such as the >miraculous ability to cause a hundred different worlds to >tremble. These are the qualities of their extraordinary, >indeed sublime, attainment." (p 149)>>>>> > >And all it took was the wisdom to keep oneself from >hammering oneself . . . ? > ><> > >I was going to say "whoever you are," but, then . . . well, >if we're all aspects of One, that "whoever" might seem >kind of offish, so . . . ^:-) . . . Anyway, don't forget: My >thumb's been hit often enough already, eh! > >Speculatively, >Mauri > >PS Not that I'm speculating so much about the >hammerings I have had, as . . . Well, not being >enlightened, I feel "speculating" might be somewhat >more sensible, or safer, than "stating facts." Although . . >. Hmm. I wonder if my "althoughs" (or "some of them" . >. . ) might be so much self hammering, in some way . . . >Tricky stuff. > >PPS Gerald here was uncrossedly responding (with the > use of "<<>>") on Theos-1 to a private post, apparently. >But I his persmission to quote him . . . or had, not too >long ago. > >PPPS Since Leon is mentioned in this post, and since >don't know if Leon subscribes to Theos-1, I thought it >might be somewhat relevant to send this post to this list, >maybe . . . From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 05:34:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 13:34:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 70920 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 13:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 13:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 13:34:47 -0000 Received: from pool0194.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.194] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18AsEg-0001M1-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:34:46 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:31:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <78.3038c25d.2afec70a@cs.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Many thanks excellent idea Dal -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 12:16 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Dallas, re FORBIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY Dallas and List Members, I seem to recall that there are "Forbidden Archeology" websites online, I suggest using www.google.com search using the key words above in the quotes. John Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:10:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:10:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 83071 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:10:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:10:42 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:10:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <111.1b7a26f4.2aff9053@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 21685 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed] NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). Received at Simla, 1881-? '82. Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G. Our philosophy falls under the definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the science of effects by their causes and of causes by their effects, and since it is also the science of things deduced from first principle, as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such principle we must know it, and have no right to admit even its possibility. Your whole explanation is based upon one solitary admission made simply for argument's sake in October last. You were told that our knowledge was limited to this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who desired to remain worthy of the name we could not either deny or affirm the existence of what you termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being of some sort beyond the limits of that solar system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks at those limits we maintain that it is highly improbable. Nevertheless we deny most emphatically the position of agnosticism in this direction, and as regards the solar system. Our doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms or denies, for it never teaches but that which it knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system no such thing as God, either personal or impersonal. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either admired or dreaded without understanding them, and since we claim and that we are able to prove what we claim -- i.e. the knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. The idea of God is not an innate but an acquired notion, and we have but one thing in common with theologies -- we reveal the infinite. But while we assign to all the phenomena that proceed from the infinite and limitless space, duration and motion, material, natural, sensible and known (to us at least) cause, the theists assign them spiritual, super-natural and unintelligible an un-known causes. The God of the Theologians is simply and imaginary power, un loup garou as d'Holbach expressed it -- a power which has never yet manifested itself. Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare, to teach man virtue for its own sake, and to walk in life relying on himself instead of leaning on a theological crutch, that for countless ages was the direct cause of nearly all human misery. Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that there is not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than God; or as that famous and unfortunate philosopher says in his fourteenth proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque concepi potest substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists . . . . who but a Theologian nursed on mystery and the most absurd super-naturalism can imagine a self existent being of necessity infinite and omnipresent outside the manifested boundless universe. The word infinite is but a negative which excludes the idea of bounds. It is evident that a being independent and omnipresent cannot be limited by anything which is outside of himself; that there can be nothing exterior to himself - - not even vacuum, then where is there room for matter? for that manifested universe even though the latter limited. If we ask the theist is your God vacuum, space or matter, they will reply no. And yet they hold that their God penetrates matter though he is not himself matter. When we speak of our One Life we also say that it penetrates, nay is the essence of every atom of matter; and that therefore it not only has correspondence with matter but has all its properties likewise, etc. -- hence is material, is matter itself. How can intelligence proceed or emanate from non-intelligence -- you kept asking last year. How could a highly intelligent humanity, man the crown of reason, be evolved out of blind unintelligent law or force! But once we reason on that line, I may ask in my turn, how could congenital idiots, non-reasoning animals, and the rest of "creation" have been created by or evoluted from, absolute Wisdom, if the latter is a thinking intelligent being, the author and ruler of the Universe? How? says Dr. Clarke in his examination of the proof of the existence of the Divinity. "God who hath made the eye, shall he not see? God who hath made the ear shall he not hear?" But according to this mode of reasoning they would have to admit that in creating an idiot God is an idiot; that he who made so many irrational beings, so many physical and moral monsters, must be an irrational being. . . . . . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on it and become agnostics. . . . . Were we to admit that even the highest Dyan Chohans are liable to err under a delusion, then there would be no reality for us indeed and the occult sciences would be as great a chimera as that God. If there is an absurdity in denying that which we do not know it is still more extravagant to assign to it unknown laws. According to logic "nothing" is that of which everything can truly be denied and nothing can truly be affirmed. The idea therefore either of a finite or infinite nothing is a contradiction in terms. And yet according to theologians "God, the self existent being is a most simple, unchangeable, incorruptible being; without parts, figure, motion, divisibility, or any other such properties as we find in matter. For all such things so plainly and necessarily imply finiteness in their very notion and are utterly inconsistent with complete infinity." Therefore the God here offered to the adoration of the XIXth century lacks every quality upon which man's mind is capable of fixing any judgment. What is this in fact but a being of whom they can affirm nothing that is not instantly contradicted. Their own Bible their Revelation destroys all the moral perceptions they heap upon him, unless indeed they call those qualities perfections that every other man's reason and common sense call imperfections, odious vices and brutal wickedness. Nay more he who reads our Buddhist scriptures written for the superstitious masses will fail to find in them a demon so vindictive, unjust, so cruel and so stupid as the celestial tyrant upon whom the Christians prodigally lavish their servile worship and on whom their theologians heap those perfections that are contradicted on every page of their Bible. Truly and veritably your theology has created her God but to destroy him piecemeal. Your church is the fabulous Saturn, who begets children but to devour them. (The Universal Mind) -- A few reflections and arguments ought to support every new idea -- for instance we are sure to be taken to task for the following apparent contradictions. (1) We deny the existence of a thinking conscious God, on the grounds that such a God must either be conditioned, limited and subject to change, therefore not infinite, or (2) if he is represented to us as an eternal unchangeable and independent being, with not a particle of matter in him, then we answer that it is no being but an immutable blind principle, a law. And yet, they will say, we believe in Dyans, or Planetaries ("spirits" also), and endow them with a universal mind, and this must be explained. Our reasons may be briefly summed up thus: (1) We deny the absurd proposition that there can be, even in a boundless and eternal universe -- two infinite eternal and omni- present existences. (2) Matter we know to be eternal, i.e., having had no beginning (a) because matter is Nature herself (b) because that which cannot annihilate itself and is indestructible exists necessarily -- and therefore it could not begin to be, nor can it cease to be (c) because the accumulated experience of countless ages, and that of exact science show to us matter (or nature) acting by her own peculiar energy, of which not an atom is ever in an absolute state of rest, and therefore it must have always existed, i.e., its materials ever changing form, combinations and properties, but its principles or elements being absolutely indestructible. (3) As to God -- since no one has ever or at any time seen him or it - - unless he or it is the very essence and nature of this boundless eternal matter, its energy and motion, we cannot regard him as either eternal or infinite or yet self existing. We refuse to admit a being or an existence of which we know absolutely nothing; because (a) there is no room for him in the presence of that matter whose undeniable properties and qualities we know thoroughly well (b) because if he or it is but a part of that matter it is ridiculous to maintain that he is the mover and ruler of that of which he is but a dependent part and (c) because if they tell us that God is a self existent pure spirit independent of matter -- an extra-cosmic deity, we answer that admitting even the possibility of such an impossibility, i.e., his existence, we yet hold that a purely immaterial spirit cannot be an intelligent conscious ruler nor can he have any of the attributes bestowed upon him by theology and thus such a God becomes again but a blind force. Intelligence as found in our Dyan Chohans, is a faculty that can appertain but to organized or animated being -- however imponderable or rather invisible the materials of their organizations. Intelligence requires the necessity of thinking; to think one must have ideas; ideas suppose senses which are physical material, and how can anything material belong to pure spirit? If it be objected that thought cannot be a property of matter, we will ask the reason why? We must have an unanswerable proof of this assumption, before we can accept it. Of the theologian we would enquire what was there to prevent his God, since he is the alleged creator of all -- to endow matter with the faculty of thought; and when answered that evidently it has not pleased Him to do so, that it is a mystery as well as an impossibility, we would insist upon being told why it is more impossible that matter should produce spirit and thought, than spirit or the thought of God should produce and create matter. We do not bow our heads in the dust before the mystery of mind -- for we have solved it ages ago. Rejecting with contempt the theistic theory we reject as much the automaton theory, teaching that states of consciousness are produced by the marshalling of the molecules of the brain; and we feel as little respect for that other hypothesis -- the production of molecular motion by consciousness. Then what do we believe in? Well, we believe in the much laughed at phlogiston (see article "What is force and what is matter?" Theosophist, September), and in what some natural philosophers would call nisus the incessant though perfectly imperceptible (to the ordinary senses) motion or efforts one body is making on another -- the pulsations of inert matter -- its life. The bodies of the Planetary spirits are formed of that which Priestley and others called Phlogiston and for which we have another name -- this essence in its highest seventh state forming that matter of which the organisms of the highest and purest Dyans are composed, and in its lowest or densest form (so impalpable yet that science calls it energy and force) serving as a cover to the Planetaries of the 1st or lowest degree. In other words we believe in MATTER alone, in matter as visible nature and matter in its invisibility as the invisible omnipresent omnipotent Proteus with its unceasing motion which is its life, and which nature draws from herself since she is the great whole outside of which nothing can exist. For as Bellinger truly asserts "motion is a manner of existence that flows necessarily out of the essence of matter; that matter moves by its own peculiar energies; that its motion is due to the force which is inherent in itself; that the variety of motion and the phenomena that result proceed from the diversity of the properties of the qualities and of the combinations which are originally found in the primitive matter" of which nature is the assemblage and of which your science knows less than one of our Tibetan Yak-drivers of Kant's metaphysics. The existence of matter then is a fact; the existence of motion is another fact, their self existence and eternity or indestructibility is a third fact. And the idea of pure spirit as a Being or an Existence -- give it whatever name you will -- is a chimera, a gigantic absurdity. Our ideas on Evil. Evil has no existence per se and is but the absence of good and exists but for him who is made its victim. It proceeds from two causes, and no more than good is it an independent cause in nature. Nature is destitute of goodness or malice; she follows only immutable laws when she either gives life and joy, or sends suffering [and] death, and destroys what she has created. Nature has an antidote for every poison and her laws a reward for every suffering. The butterfly devoured by a bird becomes that bird, and the little bird killed by an animal goes into a higher form. It is the blind law of necessity and the eternal fitness of things, and hence cannot be called Evil in Nature. The real evil proceeds from human intelligence and its origin rests entirely with reasoning man who dissociates himself from Nature. Humanity then alone is the true source of evil. Evil is the exaggeration of good, the progeny of human selfishness and greediness. Think profoundly and you will find that save death -- which is no evil but a necessary law, and accidents which will always find their reward in a future life -- the origin of every evil whether small or great is in human action, in man whose intelligence makes him the one free agent in Nature. It is not nature that creates diseases, but man. The latter's mission and destiny in the economy of nature is to die his natural death brought by old age; save accident, neither a savage nor a wild (free) animal die of disease. Food, sexual relations, drink, are all natural necessities of life; yet excess in them brings on disease, misery, suffering, mental and physical, and the latter are transmitted as the greatest evils to future generations, the progeny of the culprits. Ambition, the desire of securing happiness and comfort for those we love, by obtaining honours and riches, are praiseworthy natural feelings but when they transform man into an ambitious cruel tyrant, a miser, a selfish egotist they bring untold misery on those around him; on nations as well as on individuals. All this then -- food, wealth, ambition, and a thousand other things we have to leave unmentioned, becomes the source and cause of evil whether in its abundance or through its absence. Become a glutton, a debauchee, a tyrant, and you become the originator of diseases, of human suffering and misery. Lack all this and you starve, you are despised as a nobody and the majority of the herd, your fellow men, make of you a sufferer your whole life. Therefore it is neither nature nor an imaginary Deity that has to be blamed, but human nature made vile by selfishness. Think well over these few words; work out every cause of evil you can think of and trace it to its origin and you will have solved one-third of the problem of evil. And now, after making due allowance for evils that are natural and cannot be avoided, -- and so few are they that I challenge the whole host of Western metaphysicians to call them evils or to trace them directly to an independent cause -- I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and in whatsoever nation. It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods and cunning took advantage of the opportunity. Look at India and look at Christendom and Islam, at Judaism and Fetichism. It is priestly imposture that rendered these Gods so terrible to man; it is religion that makes of him the selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind out of his own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is belief in God and Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves of a handful of those who deceive them under the false pretence of saving them. Is not man ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told that his God or Gods demand the crime?; voluntary victim of an illusionary God, the abject slave of his crafty ministers. The Irish, Italian and Slavonian peasant will starve himself and see his family starving and naked to feed and clothe his padre and pope. For two thousand years India groaned under the weight of caste, Brahmins alone feeding on the fat of the land, and to-day the followers of Christ and those of Mahomet are cutting each other's throats in the names of and for the greater glory of their respective myths. Remember the sum of human misery will never be diminished unto that day when the better portion of humanity destroys in the name of Truth, morality, and universal charity, the altars of their false gods. If it is objected that we too have temples, we too have priests and that our lamas also live on charity . . . let them know that the objects above named have in common with their Western equivalents, but the name. Thus in our temples there is neither a god nor gods worshipped, only the thrice sacred memory of the greatest as the holiest man that ever lived. If our lamas to honour the fraternity of the Bhikkhus established by our blessed master himself, go out to be fed by the laity, the latter often to the number of 5 to 25,000 is fed and taken care of by the Samgha (the fraternity of lamaic monks) the lamassery providing for the wants of the poor, the sick, the afflicted. Our lamas accept food, never money, and it is in those temples that the origin of evil is preached and impressed upon the people. There they are taught the four noble truths -- ariya sakka, and the chain of causation, (the 12 nid[ci]anas) gives them a solution of the problem of the origin and destruction of suffering. Read the Mahavagga and try to understand not with the prejudiced Western mind but the spirit of intuition and truth what the Fully Enlightened one says in the 1st Khandhaka. Allow me to translate it for you. "At the time the blessed Buddha was at Uruvella on the shores of the river Nerovigara as he rested under the Boddhi tree of wisdom after he had become Sambuddha, at the end of the seventh day having his mind fixed on the chain of causation he spake thus: 'from Ignorance spring the samkharas of threefold nature -- productions of body, of speech, of thought. From the samkharas springs consciousness, from consciousness springs name and form, from this spring the six regions (of the six senses the seventh being the property of but the enlightened); from these springs contact from this sensation; from this springs thirst (or desire, Kama, tanha) from thirst attachment, existence, birth, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair. Again by the destruction of ignorance, the Sankharas are destroyed, and their consciousness name and form, the six regions, contact, sensation, thirst, attachment (selfishness), existence, birth, old age, death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection, and despair are destroyed. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." Knowing this the blessed one uttered this solemn utterance. "When the real nature of things becomes clear to the meditating Bikshu, then all his doubts fade away since he has learned what is that nature and what its cause. From ignorance spring all the evils. From knowledge comes the cessation of this mass of misery, and then the meditating Brahmana stands dispelling the hosts of Mara like the sun that illuminates the sky." Meditation here means the superhuman (not supernatural) qualities, or arhatship in its highest of spiritual powers. Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:14:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:14:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 82411 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:14:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:14:02 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:14:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 22 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 22255 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 22 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-22.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- ED.] Extract from Letter by K.H. to Hume. Received for my perusal towards the end of season 1882. (A.P.S.) Did it ever strike you, -- and now from the standpoint of your Western science and the suggestion of your own Ego which has already seized up the essentials of every truth, prepare to deride the erroneous idea -- did you ever suspect that Universal, like finite, human mind might have two attributes, or a dual power -- one the voluntary and conscious, and the other the involuntary and unconscious or the mechanical power. To reconcile the difficulty of many theistic and anti-theistic propositions, both these powers are a philosophical necessity. The possibility of the first or the voluntary and conscious attribute in reference to the infinite mind, notwithstanding the assertions of all the Egos throughout the living world -- will remain for ever a mere hypothesis, whereas in the finite mind it is a scientific and demonstrated fact. The highest Planetary Spirit is as ignorant of the first as we are, and the hypothesis will remain one even in Nirvana, as it is a mere inferential possibility, whether there or here. Take the human mind in connexion with the body. Man has two distinct physical brains; the cerebrum with its two hemispheres at the frontal part of the head -- the source of the voluntary nerves; and the cerebellum, situated at the back portion of the skull -- the fountain of the involuntary nerves which are the agents of the unconscious or mechanical powers of the mind to act through. And weak and uncertain as may be the control of man over his involuntary, such as the blood circulation, the throbbings of the heart and respiration, especially during sleep -- yet how far more powerful, how much more potential appears man as master and ruler over the blind molecular motion -- the laws which govern his body (a proof of this being afforded by the phenomenal powers of the Adept and even the common Yogi) than that which you will call God, shows over the immutable laws of Nature. Contrary in that to the finite, the "infinite mind," which we name so but for argument's sake, for we call it the infinite FORCE -- exhibits but the functions of its cerebellum, the existence of its supposed cerebrum being admitted as above stated, but on the inferential hypothesis deduced from the Kabalistic theory (correct in every other relation) of the Macrocosm being the prototype of the Microcosm. So far as we know the corroboration of it by modern science receiving but little consideration -- so far as the highest Planetary Spirits have ascertained (who remember well have the same relations with the trans-cosmical world, penetrating behind the primitive veil of cosmic matter as we have to go behind the veil of this, our gross physical world --) the infinite mind displays to them as to us no more than the regular unconscious throbbings of the eternal and universal pulse of Nature, throughout the myriads of worlds within as without the primitive veil of our solar system. So far -- WE KNOW. Within and to the utmost limit, to the very edge of the cosmic veil we know the fact to be correct -- owing to personal experience; for the information gathered as to what takes place beyond -- we are indebted to the Planetary Spirits, to our blessed Lord Buddha. This of course may be regarded as second-hand information. There are those who rather than to yield to the evidence of fact will prefer regarding even the planetary gods as "erring" disembodied philosophers if not actually liars. Be it so. Everyone is master of his own wisdom -- says a Tibetan proverb and he is at liberty either to honour or degrade his slave --. However I will go on for the benefit of those who may yet seize my explanation of the problem and understand the nature of the solution. It is the peculiar faculty of the involuntary power of the infinite mind -- which no one could ever think of calling God, -- to be eternally evolving subjective matter into objective atoms (you will please remember that these two adjectives are used but in a relative sense) or cosmic matter to be later on developed into form. And it is likewise that same involuntary mechanical power that we see so intensely active in all the fixed laws of nature -- which governs and controls what is called the Universe or the Cosmos. There are some modern philosophers who would prove the existence of a Creator from motion. We say and affirm that that motion -- the universal perpetual motion which never ceases never slackens nor increases its speed not even during the interludes between the pralayas, or "nights of Brahma" but goes on like a mill set in motion, whether it has anything to grind or not (for the pralaya means the temporary loss of every form, but by no means the destruction of cosmic matter which is eternal) -- we say this perpetual motion is the only eternal and uncreated Deity we are able to recognise. To regard God as an intelligent spirit, and accept at the same time his absolute immateriality is to conceive of a nonentity, a blank void; to regard God as a Being, an Ego and to place his intelligence under a bushel for some mysterious reasons -- is a most consummate nonsense; to endow him with intelligence in the face of blind brutal Evil is to make of him a fiend -- a most rascally God. A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; "No-being" and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism. What lies beyond and outside the worlds of form, and being, in worlds and spheres in their most spiritualized state -- (and you will perhaps oblige us by telling us where that beyond can be, since the Universe is infinite and limitless) is useless for anyone to search after since even Planetary Spirits have no knowledge or perception of it. If our greatest adepts and Bodhisatvas have never penetrated themselves beyond our solar system, -- and the idea seems to suit your preconceived theistic theory wonderfully, my respected Brother -- they still know of the existence of other such solar systems, with as mathematical a certainty as any western astronomer knows of the existence of invisible stars which he can never approach or explore. But of that which lies within the worlds and systems, not in the trans-infinitude -- (a queer expression to use) -- but in the cis-infinitude rather, in the state of the purest and inconceivable immateriality, no one ever knew or will ever tell, hence it is something non-existent for the universe. You are at liberty to place in this eternal vacuum the intellectual or voluntary powers of your deity -- if you can conceive of such a thing. Meanwhile we may say that it is motion that governs the laws of nature; and that it governs them as the mechanical impulse given to running water which will propel them either in a direct line or along hundreds of side furrows they may happen to meet on their way and whether those furrows are natural grooves or channels prepared artificially by the hand of man. And we maintain that wherever there is life and being, and in however much spiritualized a form, there is no room for moral government, much less for a moral Governor -- a Being which at the same time has no form nor occupies space! Verily if light shineth in darkness, and darkness comprehends it not, it is because such is the natural law, but how more suggestive and pregnant with meaning for one who knows, to say that light can still less comprehend darkness, nor ever know it since it kills wherever it penetrates and annihilates it instantly. Pure yet a volitional Spirit is an absurdity for volitional mind. The result of organism cannot exist independently of an organized brain, and an organized brain made out of nihil is a still greater fallacy. If you ask me "Whence then the immutable laws? -- laws cannot make themselves" -- then in my turn I will ask you -- and whence their supposed Creator? -- a creator cannot create or make himself. If the brain did not make itself, for this would be affirming that brain acted before it existed, how could intelligence, the result of an organized brain, act before its creator was made. All this reminds one of wrangling for seniorship. If our doctrines clash too much with your theories then we can easily give up the subject and talk of something else. Study the laws and doctrines of the Nepaulese Swabhavikas, the principal Buddhist philosophical school in India, and you will find them the most learned as the most scientifically logical wranglers in the world. Their plastic, invisible, eternal, omnipresent and unconscious Swabhavat is Force or Motion ever generating its electricity which is life. Yes: there is a force as limitless as thought, as potent as boundless will, as subtile as the essence of life so inconceivably awful in its rending force as to convulse the universe to its centre would it but be used as a lever, but this Force is not God, since there are men who have learned the secret of subjecting it to their will when necessary. Look around you and see the myriad manifestations of life, so infinitely multiform; of life, of motion, of change. What caused these? From what inexhaustible source came they, by what agency? Out of the invisible and subjective they have entered our little area of the visible and objective. Children of Akasa, concrete evolutions from the ether, it was force which brought them into perceptibility and Force will in time remove them from the sight of man. Why should this plant in your garden to the right, have been produced with such a shape and that other one to the left with one totally dissimilar? Are these not the result of varying action of Force -- unlike correlations? Given a perfect monotony of activities throughout the world, and we would have a complete identity of forms, colours, shapes and properties throughout all the kingdoms of nature. It is the motion with its resulting conflict, neutralization, equilibration, correlation, to which is due the infinite variety which prevails. You speak of an intelligent and good -- (the attribute is rather unfortunately chosen) -- Father, a moral guide and governor of the universe and man. A certain condition of things exists around us which we call normal. Under this nothing can occur which transcends our every-day experience "God's immutable laws." But suppose we change this condition and have the best of him without whom even a hair of your head will not fall, as they tell you in the West. A current of air brings to me from the lake near which, with my fingers half frozen I now write to you this letter -- I change by a certain combination of electrical magnetic odyllic or other influences the current of air which benumbs my fingers into a warmer breeze; I have thwarted the intention of the Almighty, and dethroned him at my will! I can do that, or when I do not want Nature to produce strange and too visible phenomena, I force my nature-seeing, nature-influencing self within me, to suddenly awake to new perceptions and feelings and thus am my own Creator and ruler. But do you think that you are right when saying that "the laws arise." Immutable laws cannot arise, since they are eternal and uncreated, propelled in the Eternity and that God himself if such a thing existed, could never have the power of stopping them. And when did I say that these laws were fortuitous per se. I meant their blind correlations, never the laws, or rather the law -- since we recognise but one law in the Universe, the law of harmony, of perfect EQUILIBRIUM. Then for a man endowed with so subtle a logic, and such a fine comprehension of the value of ideas in general and that of words especially -- for a man so accurate as you generally are to make tirades upon an "all wise, powerful and love-ful God" seems to say at least strange. I do not protest at all as you seem to think against your theism, or a belief in an abstract ideal of some kind, but I cannot help asking you, how do you or how can you know that your God is all wise, omnipotent and love-ful, when everything in nature, physical and moral, proves such a being, if he does exist to be quite the reverse of all you say of him? Strange delusion and one which seems to overpower your very intellect. The difficulty of explaining the fact that "unintelligent Forces can give rise to highly intelligent beings like ourselves," is covered by the eternal progression of cycles, and the process of evolution ever perfecting its work as it goes along. Not believing in cycles, it is unnecessary for you to learn that which will create but a new pretext for you, my dear Brother, to combat the theory and argue upon it ad infinitum. Nor did I ever become guilty of the heresy I am accused of -- in reference to spirit and matter. The conception of matter and spirit as entirely distinct, and both eternal could certainly never have entered my head, however little I may know of them, for it is one of the elementary and fundamental doctrines of Occultism that the two are one, and are distinct but in their respective manifestations, and only in the limited perceptions of the world of senses. Far from "lacking philosophical breadth" then, our doctrines show, but one principle in nature, -- spirit-matter or matter-spirit, the third the ultimate Absolute or the quintessence of the two, -- if I may be allowed to use an erroneous term in the present application -- losing itself beyond the view and spiritual perceptions of even the "Gods" or Planetary Spirits. This third principle say the Vedantic Philosophers -- is the only reality, everything else being Maya, as none of the Protean manifestations of spirit-matter or Purusha and Prakriti have ever been regarded in any other light than that of temporary delusions of the senses. Even in the hardly outlined philosophy of Isis this idea is clearly carried out. In the book of Kiu-te, Spirit is called the ultimate sublimation of matter, and matter the crystallization of spirit. And no better illustration could be afforded than in the very simple phenomenon of ice, water, vapour and the final dispersion of the latter, the phenomenon being reversed in its consecutive manifestations and called the Spirit failing into generation or matter. This trinity resolving itself into unity, -- a doctrine as old as the world of thought -- was seized upon by some early Christians, who had it in the schools of Alexandria, and made up into the Father, or generative spirit; the Son or matter, -- man; and into the Holy Ghost, the immaterial essence, or the apex of the equilateral triangle, an idea found to this day in the pyramids of Egypt. Thus once more it is proved that you misunderstand my meaning entirely, whenever for the sake of brevity I use a phraseology habitual with the Western people. But in my turn I have to remark that your idea that matter is but the temporary allotropic form of spirit differing from it as charcoal does from diamond is as unphilosophical as it is unscientific from both the Eastern and the Western points of view, charcoal being but a form of residue of matter, while matter per se is indestructible, and as I maintain coeval with spirit -- that spirit which we know and can conceive of. Bereaved of Prakriti, Purusha (Spirit) is unable to manifest itself, hence ceases to exist -- becomes nihil. Without spirit or Force, even that which Science styles as "not living" matter, the so-called mineral ingredients which feed plants, could never have been called into form. There is a moment in the existence of every molecule and atom of matter when, for one cause or another, the last spark of spirit or motion or life (call it by whatever name) is withdrawn, and in the same instant with the swiftness which surpasses that of the lightning glance of thought the atom or molecule or an aggregation of molecules is annihilated to return to its pristine purity of intra-cosmic matter. It is drawn to the mother fount with the velocity of a globule of quicksilver to the central mass. Matter, force, and motion are the trinity of physical objective nature, as the trinitarian unity of spirit-matter is that of the spiritual or subjective nature. Motion is eternal because spirit is eternal. But no modes of motion can ever be conceived unless they be in connection with matter. And now to your extraordinary hypothesis that Evil with its attendant train of sin and suffering is not the result of matter, but may be perchance the wise scheme of the moral Governor of the Universe. Conceivable as the idea may seem to you trained in the pernicious fallacy of the Christian, -- "the ways of the Lord are inscrutable" -- it is utterly inconceivable for me. Must I repeat again that the best Adepts have searched the Universe during milleniums and found nowhere the slightest trace of such a Machiavellian schemer -- but throughout, the same immutable, inexorable law. You must excuse me therefore if I positively decline to lose my time over such childish speculations. It is not "the ways of the Lord" but rather those of some extremely intelligent men in everything but some particular hobby, that are to me incomprehensible. As you say this need "make no difference between us" -- personally. But it does make a world of difference if you propose to learn and offer me to teach. For the life of me I cannot make out how I could ever impart to you that which I know since the very A.B.C. of what I know, the rock upon which the secrets of the occult universe, whether on this or that side of the veil, are encrusted, is contradicted by you invariably and a priori. My very dear Brother, either we know something or we do not know anything. In the first case what is the use of your learning, since you think you know better? In the second case why should you lose your time? You say it matters nothing whether these laws are the expression of the will of an intelligent conscious God, as you think, or constitute the inevitable attributes of an unintelligent, unconscious "God," as I hold. I say, it matters everything, and since you earnestly believe that these fundamental questions (of spirit and matter -- of God or no God) "are admittedly beyond both of us" -- in other words that neither I nor yet our greatest adepts can know no more than you do, then what is there on earth that I could teach you? You know that in order to enable you to read you have first to learn your letters -- yet you want to know the course of events before and after the Pralayas, of every event here on this globe on the opening of a new cycle, namely a mystery imparted at one of the last initiations, as Mr. Sinnett was told, -- for my letter to him upon the Planetary Spirits was simply incidental -- brought out by a question of his. And now you will say I am evading the direct issue. I have discoursed upon collateral points, but have not explained to you all you want to know and asked me to tell you. I "dodge" as I always do. Pardon me for contradicting you, but it is nothing of the kind. There are a thousand questions I will never be permitted to answer, and it would be dodging were I to answer you otherwise than I do. I tell you plainly you are unfit to learn, for your mind is too full and there is not a corner vacant from whence a previous occupant would not arise, to struggle with and drive away the newcomer. Therefore I do not evade, I only give you time to reflect and deduce and first learn well what was already given you before you seize on something else. The world of force, is the world of Occultism and the only one whither the highest initiate goes to probe the secrets of being. Hence no-one but such an initiate can know anything of these secrets. Guided by his Guru the chela first discovers this world, then its laws, then their centrifugal evolutions into the world of matter. To become a perfect adept takes him long years, but at last he becomes the master. The hidden things have become patent, and mystery and miracle have fled from his sight forever. He sees how to guide force in this direction or that -- to produce desirable effects. The secret chemical, electric or odic properties of plants, herbs, roots, minerals, animal tissue, are as familiar to him as the feathers of your birds are to you. No change in the etheric vibrations can escape him. He applies his knowledge, and behold a miracle! And he who started with the repudiation of the very idea that miracle is possible, is straightway classed as a miracle worker and either worshipped by the fools as a demi-god or repudiated by still greater fools as a charlatan! And to show you how exact a science is occultism let me tell you that the means we avail ourselves of are all laid down for us in a code as old as humanity to the minutest detail, but everyone of us has to begin from the beginning, not from the end. Our laws are as immutable as those of Nature, and they were known to man and eternity before this strutting game cock, modern science, was hatched. If I have not given you the modus operandi or begun by the wrong end, I have at least shown you that we build our philosophy upon experiment and deduction -- unless you choose to question and dispute this fact equally with all others. Learn first our laws and educate your perceptions, dear Brother. Control your involuntary powers and develop in the right direction your will and you will become a teacher instead of a learner. I would not refuse what I have a right to teach. Only I had to study for fifteen years before I came to the doctrines of cycles and had to learn simpler things at first. But do what we may, and whatever happens I trust we will have no more arguing which is as profitless as it is painful. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:19:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 90522 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:19:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7897 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 134 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm [Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a message from Master Morya.] Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th. Arrived only yesterday, last night late from Saharampur. The house very good but cold, damp and dreary. Received a whole heap of letters and answer yours first. Saw at last M. and showed him your last or rather Benemadhab's on which you have scratched a query. It is the latter Morya answers. I wrote this under his dictation and now copy it. I wrote to Sinnett my opinion on the Allahabad theosophists. (Not through me though?) Adetyarom B. wrote a foolish letter to Damodar and Benemadhab writes a foolish request to Mr. Sinnett. Because K.H. chose to correspond with two men, who proved of the utmost importance and use to the Society they all -- whether wise or stupid, clever or dull, possibly useful or utterly useless -- lay their claims to correspond with us directly -- too. Tell him (you) that this must be stopped. For ages we never corresponded with anyone, nor do we mean to. What has Benemadhab or any other of the many claimants done to have a right to such a claim? Nothing whatever. They join the Society, and though remaining as stubborn as ever in their old beliefs and superstitions, and having never given up caste or one single of their customs, they, in their selfish exclusiveness, expect to see and converse with us and have our help in all and everything. I will be pleased if Mr. Sinnett says, to everyone of those who may address him with similar pretensions the following: "The 'Brothers' desire me to inform one and all of you, natives, that unless a man is prepared to become a thorough theosophist i.e. to do as D. Mavalankar did, -- give up entirely caste, his old superstitions and show himself a true reformer (especially in the case of child marriage) he will remain simply a member of the Society with no hope whatever of ever hearing from us. The Society, acting in this directly in accordance with our orders, forces no one to become a theosophist of the IId. Section. It is left with himself and at his choice. It is useless for a member to argue 'I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations are for good etc.' and he, at the same time, building by his acts and deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What have we, the disciples of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and of Sang-gyas to do with the Shasters and Orthodox Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, on the path of error, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us. Which of them is ready to become a Buddhist, a Nastika as they call us? None. Those who have believed and followed us have had their reward. Mr. Sinnett and Hume are exceptions. Their beliefs are no barrier to us for they have none. They may have had influences around them, bad magnetic emanations the result of drink, Society and promiscuous physical associations (resulting even from shaking hands with impure men) but all this is physical and material impediments which with a little effort we could counteract and even clear away without much detriment to ourselves. Not so with the magnetism and invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do not find it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are Dhyan-Chohans and "Chohans of Darkness," not what they term devils but imperfect "Intelligences" who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere no more than the "Dhyan Chohans" have and who will never belong to the "builders of the Universe," the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. Explain this to Mr. Sinnett (I CAN'T) -- tell him to read over what I said to them in the few things I have explained to Mr. Hume; and let him remember that as all in this universe is contrast (I cannot translate it better) so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the "Ma-Mo Chohans" -- and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship; and so long as their influence is upon their devotees we would no more think of associating with or counteracting them in their work than we do the Red-Caps on earth whose evil results we try to palliate but whose work we have no right to meddle with so long as they do not cross our path. (You will not understand this, I suppose. But think well over it and you will. M. means here, that they have no right or even power to go against the natural or that work which is prescribed to each class of beings or existing things by the law of nature. The Brothers, for instance could prolong life but they could not destroy death, not even for themselves. They can to a degree palliate evil and relieve suffering; they could not destroy evil. No more can the Dhyan Chohans impede the work of the Mamo Chohans, for their Law is darkness, ignorance, destruction etc., as that of the former is Light, knowledge and creation. The Dhyan Chohans answer to Buddh, Divine Wisdom and Life in blissful knowledge, and the Ma-mos are the personification in nature of Shiva, Jehovah and other invented monsters with Ignorance at their tail). The last phrase of M.'s I translate is thus. Tell him (you) then that for the sake of those who desire to learn and have information, I am ready to answer the 2 or 3 enquiries of Beninadhab from the Shasters, but I will enter in no correspondence with him or any other. Let him put their questions clearly and distinctly to (you) Mr. Sinnett, and then I will answer through him (you)." ------- I send you my uncle's letter just received by me. He says (as my translation of his Russian letter shows) that he wrote to you the same. Whether you received it or not, I know not, but I send you this. If it is identical with yours then send me back mine. I suppose that by this time it is pretty well proved that I am I -- and not someone else; that my uncle being now adjunct (or asst.) Minister of the Interior, is a personage who by signing his name in full can certainly be trusted, unless, indeed, the C. and M. and your friend Primrose invent a new version and say that we have forged the documents. But my uncle says in his official letter to me that the Prince Dondovhof is going to send me an official document to prove my identity, and so we will wait. His other private letter I cannot translate as its phraseology is far from complimentary for Mr. Primrose in particular, and the Anglo-Indians who insult and vilify me in general. I will ask the Prince to write to Lord Ripon, or Gladstone direct. Your's in the love of Jesus H. P. Blavatsky. Why the deuce does the "Boss" want me now to go to Allahabad? I can't be spending money there and back for I have to go by Jeypur and Baroda and he knows it. What all this means is more than I can tell. He made me go to Lahore and now it's Allahabad!! From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:26:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:26:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 70431 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:26:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:26:27 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:26:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: KH on "God": Excerpt from Mahatma Letter No. 54 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1088 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 54 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-54.htm Received Simla, October, 1882. . . . I dread the appearance in print of our philosophy as expounded by Mr. H. I read his three essays or chapters on God (?) cosmogony and glimpses of the origin of things in general, and had to cross out nearly all. He makes of us Agnostics!! We do not believe in God because so far, we have no proof, etc. This is preposterously ridiculous: if he publishes what I read, I will have H.P.B. or Djual Khool deny the whole thing; as I cannot permit our sacred philosophy to be so disfigured. He says that people will not accept the whole truth; that unless we humour them with a hope that there may be a "loving Father and creator of all in heaven" our philosophy will be rejected a priori. In such a case the less such idiots hear of our doctrines the better for both. If they do not want the whole truth and nothing but the truth, they are welcome. But never will they find us -- (at any rate) -- compromising with, and pandering to public prejudices. . . . K.H. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:29:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:29:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 84203 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:29:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:29:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:29:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:29:35 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:29:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master KH on "God": Excerpt from Mahatma Letter No. 82 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 403 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 82 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-82.htm . . . And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra- cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find -- each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara. . . . K.H. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:36:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:36:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 42665 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:36:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:36:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:36:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:36:08 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:36:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master KH on "God" : KH refers to his notes known as ML No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 816 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 23b http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm . . . In my notes [see Mahatma Letter No. 10] on Mr. Hume's MSS., "On God" -- that he kindly adds to our Philosophy, something the latter had never contemplated before -- the subject is mentioned abundantly. Has he refused you a look into it? For you -- I may enlarge my explanations, but not before you have read what I say of the origin of good and evil on those margins. [See again ML. No. 10] Quite enough was said by me for our present purposes. Strangely enough I found a European author -- the greatest materialist of his times, Baron d'Holbach -- whose views coincide entirely with the views of our philosophy. When reading his Essais sur la Nature, I might have imagined I had our book of Kiu-ti before me. . . . K.H. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 06:46:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 24038 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:46:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master M. on Incarnation of "God" and the Radhasoami Gurus Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2555 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Mahatma Letter No. 40 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-40.htm . . . Suby Ram [Rai Salig Ram] -- a truly good man -- yet a devotee of another error. Not his guru's voice -- his own. The voice of a pure, unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed in misguided, misdirected mysticism. Add to it a chronic disorder in that portion of the brain which responds to clear vision and the secret is soon told: that disorder was developed by forced visions; by hatha yog and prolonged asceticism. S. Ram is the chief medium and at same time the principal magnetic factor, who spreads his disease by infection -- unconsciously to himself; who innoculates with his vision all the other disciples. There is one general law of vision (physical and mental or spiritual) but there is a qualifying special law proving that all vision must be determined by the quality or grade of man's spirit and soul, and also by the ability to translate divers qualities of waves of astral light into consciousness. There is but one general law of life, but innumerable laws qualify and determine the myriads of forms perceived and of sounds heard. There are those who are willingly and others who are unwillingly -- blind. Mediums belong to the former, sensitives to the latter. Unless regularly initiated and trained -- concerning the spiritual insight of things and the supposed revelations made unto man in all ages from Socrates down to Swedenborg and "Fern" -- no self-tutored seer or clairaudient ever saw or heard quite correctly. No harm and much instruction may come to you by joining his [Radhasoami] Society. Go on until he demands what you will be obliged to refuse. Learn and study. You are right: they [Salig Ram and his devotees] say and affirm that the one and only God of the Universe was incarnated in their guru [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged founder of Radhasoami], and were such an individual to exist he would certainly be higher than any "planetary." But they are idolators, my friend. Their guru was no initiate only a man of extraordinary purity of life and powers of endurance. He had never consented to give up his notions of a personal god and even gods though offered more than once. He was born an orthodox Hindu and died a self-reformed Hindu, something like Kechub-Ch-Sen but higher purer and with no ambition to taint his bright soul. Many of us have regretted his self-delusion but he was too good to be forcibly interfered with. Join them and learn -- but remember your sacred promise to K.H. . . . M. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 07:08:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:08:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 37259 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:08:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:08:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:08:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 15:08:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:08:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Accumulation of wealth: the undoing of religions? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3856 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.37 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Daniel: Sufism is the root of Sant Mat or Radhasoami. This quote from Will Durant clearly indicates that Christian mysticism and the pagan religions of Greece and Rome are really the biggest informants of the spiritual science known as Sant Mat. Here is something I posted this morning about it. Is this a coincidence that Christianity is the greatest influence on this religion plus the asceticism of Hinduism? ************ --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" wrote: "Moslem mysticism had many roots: in the asceticism of the Hindu fakirs, the Gnosticism of Egypt and Syria, the Neoplatonists speculations of the later Greeks, and the omnipresent example of ascetic Christian monks. As in Christendom, so in Islam a pious minority protested against any accommodation of religion to the interests and practices of the economic world; they DENOUNCED the LUXURY of the Caliphs, viziers, and merchants....flourished most in Persia...call themselves Sufis, from the simple robe of wool (suf) that they wore...maintain that the knowledge of God is found within our own hearts...God is all...each soul is GOD...and the full-blooded mystic shamelessly avers that "God and I are one" "Verily I am God" and Abu Yezid "there is no god but me; worship me" and Husein Hallaj said "And He Whom I love is I..I am.." Hallaj was arrested for exaggeration, scourged and burned to death (922)....many Sufis made him their favorite Saint. "The Sufi like the Hindu, believed in a course of discipline as necessary to the mystic revelation of God: purifying exercises of devotion, MEDITATION, full OBEDIENCE OF THE NOVICE TO A SUFI MASTER." Will Durant "The Age of Faith" *********** Comment: It seems we are both correct. I had no idea that the major influence on Sufism might be Platonism, the Greeks and above all CHRISTIANITY and monasticim, my favorite subject. Once again so- called pagan roots form a religion in the East. This is also the great influence of the great fathers of Christianity such as Origen. My favorite subjects of study. Hello......lol. Look at the spiritual practices of the Sufi: devotion, meditation, and full obedience to the master. This is taken from the rules of St. Benedict or any of the other founders of monastic orders. Then there were the monks of Egypt who were the most ascetic and some lived in caves even. There you have it. Those who are seeking spiritual order or Truth always end up separating themselves from the religion. They are like the petal of a flower come undone, falling off to regenerate as a new group, new ideal. Then that ideal becomes full flower and it too becomes degenerate and gives into the accummulation of wealth burden as its primary goal. This is not new friends. As for the Hindu influence it was also major. That is where the discipline aspect came in. I mean did not Hinduism inform Buddhism? Here's a good line: "When Mani (c216-217) claiming to be a fourth divine messenger in the line of Buddha and Jesus announced a religion of celibacy, pacifism, and quietism...the Magi (the militants) had him crucified" Finally: it appears that the reason for this rebellion by the masses, the pious was due to the abuse of power in the accumulation of wealth by the religious teachers and masters. They had the same arguments that some here have: that the office is being used to amass wealth. How you like that? But this story is repeated time and again through history of religions is it not? Those who rebel. I mean that is what the monastic movement in Europe was about: putting off the shackles of wealth. Now we have the Poops, I mean Popes so laden down with gem stones and gold that their tired asses can barely walk. And a capital so rich it is an independent state. Netemara --- End forwarded message --- From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 07:17:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:17:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 2426 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:17:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 15:17:14 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:17:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 23222 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Daniel, this is a wonderful synopsis of what Theosophy is about and where the idea that they are atheists came from. They are not atheists they are Gnostics. That is what I consider to be the truth-- the Gnostic, the Knower, the Jnani yogi. Now my second question is this: Is this a sample of what Blavatsky or one of her cohorts is said to have written? Hey, this is extremely well written and plain as the nose on your face. There are no circuitous arguments here. Could HPB have written all these and the SD besides. She would have to have been at her desk writing 24/7! Netemara PS: Did you have to input this letter yourself? ************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed] > > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME, > INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). > > Received at Simla, 1881-? '82. > > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all > in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G. Our philosophy falls > under the definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the science of > effects by their causes and of causes by their effects, and since it > is also the science of things deduced from first principle, as Bacon > defines it, before we admit any such principle we must know it, and > have no right to admit even its possibility. Your whole explanation > is based upon one solitary admission made simply for argument's sake > in October last. You were told that our knowledge was limited to this > our solar system: ergo as philosophers who desired to remain worthy > of the name we could not either deny or affirm the existence of what > you termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being of some sort > beyond the limits of that solar system. But if such an existence is > not absolutely impossible, yet unless the uniformity of nature's law > breaks at those limits we maintain that it is highly improbable. > Nevertheless we deny most emphatically the position of agnosticism in > this direction, and as regards the solar system. Our doctrine knows > no compromises. It either affirms or denies, for it never teaches but > that which it knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God both as > philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other > spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system no such thing as > God, either personal or impersonal. Parabrahm is not a God, but > absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, > ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented > to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either > admired or dreaded without understanding them, and since we claim and > that we are able to prove what we claim -- i.e. the knowledge of that > cause and causes we are in a position to maintain there is no God or > Gods behind them. > > The idea of God is not an innate but an acquired notion, and we have > but one thing in common with theologies -- we reveal the infinite. > But while we assign to all the phenomena that proceed from the > infinite and limitless space, duration and motion, material, natural, > sensible and known (to us at least) cause, the theists assign them > spiritual, super-natural and unintelligible an un-known causes. The > God of the Theologians is simply and imaginary power, un loup garou > as d'Holbach expressed it -- a power which has never yet manifested > itself. Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare, to > teach man virtue for its own sake, and to walk in life relying on > himself instead of leaning on a theological crutch, that for > countless ages was the direct cause of nearly all human misery. > Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are willing > to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and unconscious > in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more gigantic > misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that there is > not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than God; or as > that famous and unfortunate philosopher says in his fourteenth > proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque concepi potest > substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists . . . . who but a > Theologian nursed on mystery and the most absurd super-naturalism can > imagine a self existent being of necessity infinite and omnipresent > outside the manifested boundless universe. The word infinite is but a > negative which excludes the idea of bounds. It is evident that a > being independent and omnipresent cannot be limited by anything which > is outside of himself; that there can be nothing exterior to himself - > - not even vacuum, then where is there room for matter? for that > manifested universe even though the latter limited. If we ask the > theist is your God vacuum, space or matter, they will reply no. And > yet they hold that their God penetrates matter though he is not > himself matter. When we speak of our One Life we also say that it > penetrates, nay is the essence of every atom of matter; and that > therefore it not only has correspondence with matter but has all its > properties likewise, etc. -- hence is material, is matter itself. How > can intelligence proceed or emanate from non-intelligence -- you kept > asking last year. How could a highly intelligent humanity, man the > crown of reason, be evolved out of blind unintelligent law or force! > But once we reason on that line, I may ask in my turn, how could > congenital idiots, non-reasoning animals, and the rest of "creation" > have been created by or evoluted from, absolute Wisdom, if the latter > is a thinking intelligent being, the author and ruler of the > Universe? How? says Dr. Clarke in his examination of the proof of the > existence of the Divinity. "God who hath made the eye, shall he not > see? God who hath made the ear shall he not hear?" But according to > this mode of reasoning they would have to admit that in creating an > idiot God is an idiot; that he who made so many irrational beings, so > many physical and moral monsters, must be an irrational being. . . . > > . . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life > is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And > no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an > agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every > respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the > microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no > creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on > it and become agnostics. > > . . . . Were we to admit that even the highest Dyan Chohans are > liable to err under a delusion, then there would be no reality for us > indeed and the occult sciences would be as great a chimera as that > God. If there is an absurdity in denying that which we do not know it > is still more extravagant to assign to it unknown laws. > > According to logic "nothing" is that of which everything can truly be > denied and nothing can truly be affirmed. The idea therefore either > of a finite or infinite nothing is a contradiction in terms. And yet > according to theologians "God, the self existent being is a most > simple, unchangeable, incorruptible being; without parts, figure, > motion, divisibility, or any other such properties as we find in > matter. For all such things so plainly and necessarily imply > finiteness in their very notion and are utterly inconsistent with > complete infinity." Therefore the God here offered to the adoration > of the XIXth century lacks every quality upon which man's mind is > capable of fixing any judgment. What is this in fact but a being of > whom they can affirm nothing that is not instantly contradicted. > Their own Bible their Revelation destroys all the moral perceptions > they heap upon him, unless indeed they call those qualities > perfections that every other man's reason and common sense call > imperfections, odious vices and brutal wickedness. Nay more he who > reads our Buddhist scriptures written for the superstitious masses > will fail to find in them a demon so vindictive, unjust, so cruel and > so stupid as the celestial tyrant upon whom the Christians prodigally > lavish their servile worship and on whom their theologians heap those > perfections that are contradicted on every page of their Bible. Truly > and veritably your theology has created her God but to destroy him > piecemeal. Your church is the fabulous Saturn, who begets children > but to devour them. > > (The Universal Mind) -- A few reflections and arguments ought to > support every new idea -- for instance we are sure to be taken to > task for the following apparent contradictions. (1) We deny the > existence of a thinking conscious God, on the grounds that such a God > must either be conditioned, limited and subject to change, therefore > not infinite, or (2) if he is represented to us as an eternal > unchangeable and independent being, with not a particle of matter in > him, then we answer that it is no being but an immutable blind > principle, a law. And yet, they will say, we believe in Dyans, or > Planetaries ("spirits" also), and endow them with a universal mind, > and this must be explained. > > Our reasons may be briefly summed up thus: > > (1) We deny the absurd proposition that there can be, even in a > boundless and eternal universe -- two infinite eternal and omni- > present existences. > > (2) Matter we know to be eternal, i.e., having had no beginning (a) > because matter is Nature herself (b) because that which cannot > annihilate itself and is indestructible exists necessarily -- and > therefore it could not begin to be, nor can it cease to be (c) > because the accumulated experience of countless ages, and that of > exact science show to us matter (or nature) acting by her own > peculiar energy, of which not an atom is ever in an absolute state of > rest, and therefore it must have always existed, i.e., its materials > ever changing form, combinations and properties, but its principles > or elements being absolutely indestructible. > > (3) As to God -- since no one has ever or at any time seen him or it - > - unless he or it is the very essence and nature of this boundless > eternal matter, its energy and motion, we cannot regard him as either > eternal or infinite or yet self existing. We refuse to admit a being > or an existence of which we know absolutely nothing; because (a) > there is no room for him in the presence of that matter whose > undeniable properties and qualities we know thoroughly well (b) > because if he or it is but a part of that matter it is ridiculous to > maintain that he is the mover and ruler of that of which he is but a > dependent part and (c) because if they tell us that God is a self > existent pure spirit independent of matter -- an extra-cosmic deity, > we answer that admitting even the possibility of such an > impossibility, i.e., his existence, we yet hold that a purely > immaterial spirit cannot be an intelligent conscious ruler nor can he > have any of the attributes bestowed upon him by theology and thus > such a God becomes again but a blind force. Intelligence as found in > our Dyan Chohans, is a faculty that can appertain but to organized or > animated being -- however imponderable or rather invisible the > materials of their organizations. Intelligence requires the necessity > of thinking; to think one must have ideas; ideas suppose senses which > are physical material, and how can anything material belong to pure > spirit? If it be objected that thought cannot be a property of > matter, we will ask the reason why? We must have an unanswerable > proof of this assumption, before we can accept it. Of the theologian > we would enquire what was there to prevent his God, since he is the > alleged creator of all -- to endow matter with the faculty of > thought; and when answered that evidently it has not pleased Him to > do so, that it is a mystery as well as an impossibility, we would > insist upon being told why it is more impossible that matter should > produce spirit and thought, than spirit or the thought of God should > produce and create matter. > > We do not bow our heads in the dust before the mystery of mind -- for > we have solved it ages ago. Rejecting with contempt the theistic > theory we reject as much the automaton theory, teaching that states > of consciousness are produced by the marshalling of the molecules of > the brain; and we feel as little respect for that other hypothesis - - > the production of molecular motion by consciousness. Then what do we > believe in? Well, we believe in the much laughed at phlogiston (see > article "What is force and what is matter?" Theosophist, September), > and in what some natural philosophers would call nisus the incessant > though perfectly imperceptible (to the ordinary senses) motion or > efforts one body is making on another -- the pulsations of inert > matter -- its life. The bodies of the Planetary spirits are formed of > that which Priestley and others called Phlogiston and for which we > have another name -- this essence in its highest seventh state > forming that matter of which the organisms of the highest and purest > Dyans are composed, and in its lowest or densest form (so impalpable > yet that science calls it energy and force) serving as a cover to the > Planetaries of the 1st or lowest degree. In other words we believe in > MATTER alone, in matter as visible nature and matter in its > invisibility as the invisible omnipresent omnipotent Proteus with its > unceasing motion which is its life, and which nature draws from > herself since she is the great whole outside of which nothing can > exist. For as Bellinger truly asserts "motion is a manner of > existence that flows necessarily out of the essence of matter; that > matter moves by its own peculiar energies; that its motion is due to > the force which is inherent in itself; that the variety of motion and > the phenomena that result proceed from the diversity of the > properties of the qualities and of the combinations which are > originally found in the primitive matter" of which nature is the > assemblage and of which your science knows less than one of our > Tibetan Yak-drivers of Kant's metaphysics. > > The existence of matter then is a fact; the existence of motion is > another fact, their self existence and eternity or indestructibility > is a third fact. And the idea of pure spirit as a Being or an > Existence -- give it whatever name you will -- is a chimera, a > gigantic absurdity. > > Our ideas on Evil. Evil has no existence per se and is but the > absence of good and exists but for him who is made its victim. It > proceeds from two causes, and no more than good is it an independent > cause in nature. Nature is destitute of goodness or malice; she > follows only immutable laws when she either gives life and joy, or > sends suffering [and] death, and destroys what she has created. > Nature has an antidote for every poison and her laws a reward for > every suffering. The butterfly devoured by a bird > becomes that bird, and the little bird killed by an animal goes into > a higher form. It is the blind law of necessity and the eternal > fitness of things, and hence cannot be called Evil in Nature. The > real evil proceeds from human intelligence and its origin rests > entirely with reasoning man who dissociates himself from Nature. > Humanity then alone is the true source of evil. Evil is the > exaggeration of good, the progeny of human selfishness and > greediness. Think profoundly and you will find that save death -- > which is no evil but a necessary law, and accidents which will always > find their reward in a future life -- the origin of every evil > whether small or great is in human action, in man whose intelligence > makes him the one free agent in Nature. It is not nature that creates > diseases, but man. The latter's mission and destiny in the economy of > nature is to die his natural death brought by old age; save accident, > neither a savage nor a wild (free) animal die of disease. Food, > sexual relations, drink, are all natural necessities of life; yet > excess in them brings on disease, misery, suffering, mental and > physical, and the latter are transmitted as the greatest evils to > future generations, the progeny of the culprits. Ambition, the desire > of securing happiness and comfort for those we love, by obtaining > honours and riches, are praiseworthy natural feelings but when they > transform man into an ambitious cruel tyrant, a miser, a selfish > egotist they bring untold misery on those around him; on nations as > well as on individuals. All this then -- food, wealth, ambition, and > a thousand other things we have to leave unmentioned, becomes the > source and cause of evil whether in its abundance or through its > absence. Become a glutton, a debauchee, a tyrant, and you become the > originator of diseases, of human suffering and misery. Lack all this > and you starve, you are despised as a nobody and the majority of the > herd, your fellow men, make of you a sufferer your whole life. > Therefore it is neither nature nor an imaginary Deity that has to be > blamed, but human nature made vile by selfishness. Think well over > these few words; work out every cause of evil you can think of and > trace it to its origin and you will have solved one-third of the > problem of evil. And now, after making due allowance for evils that > are natural and cannot be avoided, -- and so few are they that I > challenge the whole host of Western metaphysicians to call them evils > or to trace them directly to an independent cause -- I will point out > the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that > pursue humanity ever since that cause became a power. It is religion > under whatever form and in whatsoever nation. It is the sacerdotal > caste, the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions that > man looks upon as sacred, that he has to search out the source of > that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that > almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods and cunning took > advantage of the opportunity. Look at India and look at Christendom > and Islam, at Judaism and Fetichism. It is priestly imposture that > rendered these Gods so terrible to man; it is religion that makes of > him the selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind out of his > own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is > belief in God and Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves > of a handful of those who deceive them under the false pretence of > saving them. Is not man ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told > that his God or Gods demand the crime?; voluntary victim of an > illusionary God, the abject slave of his crafty ministers. The Irish, > Italian and Slavonian peasant will starve himself and see his family > starving and naked to feed and clothe his padre and pope. For two > thousand years India groaned under the weight of caste, Brahmins > alone feeding on the fat of the land, and to-day the followers of > Christ and those of Mahomet are cutting each other's throats in the > names of and for the greater glory of their respective myths. > Remember the sum of human misery will never be diminished unto that > day when the better portion of humanity destroys in the name of > Truth, morality, and universal charity, the altars of their false > gods. > > If it is objected that we too have temples, we too have priests and > that our lamas also live on charity . . . let them know that the > objects above named have in common with their Western equivalents, > but the name. Thus in our temples there is neither a god nor gods > worshipped, only the thrice sacred memory of the greatest as the > holiest man that ever lived. If our lamas to honour the fraternity of > the Bhikkhus established by our blessed master himself, go out to be > fed by the laity, the latter often to the number of 5 to 25,000 is > fed and taken care of by the Samgha (the fraternity of lamaic monks) > the lamassery providing for the wants of the poor, the sick, the > afflicted. Our lamas accept food, never money, and it is in those > temples that the origin of evil is preached and impressed upon the > people. There they are taught the four noble truths -- ariya sakka, > and the chain of causation, (the 12 nid[ci]anas) gives them a > solution of the problem of the origin and destruction of suffering. > > Read the Mahavagga and try to understand not with the prejudiced > Western mind but the spirit of intuition and truth what the Fully > Enlightened one says in the 1st Khandhaka. Allow me to translate it > for you. > > "At the time the blessed Buddha was at Uruvella on the shores of the > river Nerovigara as he rested under the Boddhi tree of wisdom after > he had become Sambuddha, at the end of the seventh day having his > mind fixed on the chain of causation he spake thus: 'from Ignorance > spring the samkharas of threefold nature -- productions of body, of > speech, of thought. From the samkharas springs consciousness, from > consciousness springs name and form, from this spring the six regions > (of the six senses the seventh being the property of but the > enlightened); from these springs contact from this sensation; from > this springs thirst (or desire, Kama, tanha) from thirst attachment, > existence, birth, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, > dejection and despair. Again by the destruction of ignorance, the > Sankharas are destroyed, and their consciousness name and form, the > six regions, contact, sensation, thirst, attachment (selfishness), > existence, birth, old age, death, grief, lamentation, suffering, > dejection, and despair are destroyed. Such is the cessation of this > whole mass of suffering." > > Knowing this the blessed one uttered this solemn utterance. "When the > real nature of things becomes clear to the meditating Bikshu, then > all his doubts fade away since he has learned what is that nature and > what its cause. From ignorance spring all the evils. From knowledge > comes the cessation of this mass of misery, and then the meditating > Brahmana stands dispelling the hosts of Mara like the sun that > illuminates the sky." > > Meditation here means the superhuman (not supernatural) qualities, or > arhatship in its highest of spiritual powers. > > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 07:33:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:33:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 73211 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 15:33:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:33:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3796 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.170 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed] > > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME, > INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). People who look at all this as mere theory miss the fact that from the point of view of a yogi, whether there is or is not a God is only of interest inasmuch as the notion is useful in practice. Thus Kapila's original formulation of the Samkhya philosophy does not include any sort of God, but the system of Raja Yoga as laid down in the Yoga Sutras includes a special Purusha called Isvara (Lord) even though it is derived from Kapila's system. This is because Raja Yoga is in part a devotional system and it does not make sense to be devoted to something the existence of which one denies. Most commentators on Raja Yoga say the devotional element is there because ancient yogis found this practice produced mystically interesting results. Buddhism, on the other hand, does not include a belief in God because the Buddha wished to force his students to take personal responsibility for their own salvation. The way it has been explained to me, Buddhism does not deny the existence of a God, but does discourage dependence on any external entity. This is the opposite of Christianity, in which the believer is told the responsibility for him lies squarely on the shoulders of a fellow who died two thousand years ago. By pulling God completely out from under the student, Buddhism radically throws him or her back on his or her own resources. Here again the question is: what position produces mystically interesting results? It is never admitted to my knowledge, but I think this same rationale applies to the doctrine of anatman (anatta in Pali). Whether there is or there is not a soul is a philosophical question (and in any other system but Buddhism a religious one.) Buddhism denies the existence of a soul because this denial is central to the practice of Mindfulness and the various techniques for experiencing enlightenment. Except from a practical point of view, it does not really make any difference whether there is a soul or not. And then there is the soi distant system called "chaos magick." One website I have seen says the "chaote" strives to "believe" in the Virgin Mary as stridently as any catholic for the purpose of getting goodies from her. Then as soon as he gets whatever he wants, he discards her. A sort of mystical one night stand. There is something to me a little distasteful about this whole system, but here we have a frank admission that "belief" to a practical minded person is utilitarian and not philosophical. The mahatma is obviously coming from a Buddhist perspective, as is admitted in the mahatma letters. But his system is also theurgic, meaning something such as a planetary spirit can be believed in if it can be evoked or invoked successfully. This suggests that he is a siddha or Tantric Buddhist of some sort. Here again there is a utilitarianism. If the Christian God cannot be evoked, then he is of no practical interest as far as the mahatma's system is concerned. The system of seven principles which he espouses is also a practical mystical system and not a mere theory. If you once grasp the true meaning of the system (and I have seen no evidence that anyone has) much (but not all) of the practice that it implies suddenly becomes plain. At this level of understanding it is impossible to believe the whole thing is a mere fraud as some have said, but there are still many questions which were left unanswered. From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Nov 10 07:37:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:37:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 17193 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d09.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:37:35 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.46.30ca4dad (17228) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:37:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46.30ca4dad.2affd737@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:37:27 EST Subject: Netamara? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Ahh, i see what the problem is. I mistook you, Netamara, for Bhakti Ananda Goswami and replied accordingly. No wonder he was confused and i believe it was your site that was being mentioned and not Goswami's. Is that correct? ======================================================= In a message dated 11/9/02 9:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, netemara888@yahoo.com writes: > Subj: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > Date: 11/9/02 9:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time > From: netemara888@yahoo.com (netemara888) > Reply-to: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > corrected version: > > > Hello Nisk, > > > > I am so happy you posted this introduction. First I would like to > > invite you personally to my forum. I have just changed the name. I > > inherited the forum and the name and just changed it to: > > theosophy_talks_truth@y... > > > > I am a theosophist by birth. I am not Aryan, not white, not Indian. > > Although while in India I was mistaken for Indian. I can tell you > HPB > > was not anti-Catholic per se, she was anti-religion, because she > > found it to be anti-truth. I have traced her many lives and she is > > involved in things that people would think were totally racist and > > the like. But we have to look at the BIG PICTURE. > > > > I have posted a picture of myself on my forum and people still > think > > I am mediterrean or Indian, but I am not. I write about race and > get > > called a nazi and everything else. It is a huge subject most people > > do not want to discuss, especially whites. So, while I have not > > gotten death threats I have gotten lots of hate mail. If you want > to > > discuss race or your viewpoints you can discuss it with me and read > > what I have written at my forum. I think you would be most > interested. > > > > Besides I think you must need spiritual healing due to your > > discussion about health issues. If you are living in India is this > > because of pollution too? I have spent time in India and while I > > loved it there, the smoke in the air is bad. On my last visit > after > > a month I coughed my head off for 6 months when I returned to > > Chicago. We used to call it the "Dera cough" > > > > BTW: since you are so knowledgeable do you know Radhasoami and the > > Beas gurus? I followed Charan Singh until his death in 1991. I am > no > > longer in that group, but have fond and many memories after 22 > years > > with them. > > > > I will pray for you and send you some healing energy, if that is > okay > > with you. You know Olcott did some type of mesmeric healing. I heal > > with heat and cold massage of the nadis and etheric body. If the > > person's karma allows then it happens quite easily, if not then > they > > might suffer a little longer and be healed spontaneously later. Let > > me know, because I think healing is only effective if the other is > > willing to accept it and I don't want to intrude on your private > > thoughts or philosophy. > > > > Healing is also philosophical and logical in nature. If you are on > a > > crusade against Aryan behavior and feel that it has offended you, > > perhaps it has. Perhaps you were the offender in a past life. I can > > also help you trace some lives and you might find healing that way. > > In this sense Knowledge is Power. But HPB writes that the Indians, > > especially the Northern Indian, where I was, was the first and true > > Aryan. They DO appear different from the southern Indian. But when > I > > was there I saw an Indian for every black person I knew in America. > I > > found their twin over there!!! They came in every shape, size and > > color. So that is why I love India and Indians and have a true > > simpatico for them. > > > > Namaste > > > > The best > > > > Netemara > > > > **************** > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > > Hello, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, WELCOME TO THEOS WORLD. > > > IT SEEMS IGNORANCE IS OUR (HUMANITIES) GREATEST ENEMY. > > > THE GREATEST GIFT CAN BE POISON. > > > MEDICAL PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY POISONS IN THAT SO > > MANY CURES > > > HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE DISCOVERIES OF THE ROOT OF EACH POISON > > THEREBY > > > EFFECTING A CURE. > > > FOR EXAMPLE, IT SEEMS THAT IODINE TAKEN INTERNALLY CAN DO GREAT > > DAMAGE YET > > > WHEN APPLIED TO AN EXTERIOR CUT OR BRUISE CAN AID IN A HEALTHY > > RECOVERY AND > > > BE A BLESSING. I HOPE WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY RECOVERY > AND > > MANY > > > BLESSINGS. > > > ========================================================= > > > > > > In a message dated 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > > > > > Subj: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > > > > Date: 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > > > Reply-to: > > > theos-talk@y... > > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami > > > > Subject: MY POST TO THEOS-TALK EGROUP > > > > > > > > > > > > GREETINGS DEAR FELLOW RESPECTERS OF TRUTH AND VIRTUE, > > > > > > > > PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESPECTFUL OBEISANCES. > > > > > > > > MY NAME IS BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AND I AM A SANNYASI AND > > SHIKSHA > > > > (INSTRUCTING) MASTER IN THE ANCIENT AND VENERABLE BRAHMA- > MADHVA- > > > > GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. I HAVE ALSO HAD EXTENSIVE > > EXPERIANCE > > > > WITH SHAIVA, SHAKTI, BUDDHIST AND OTHER TRADITIONS. I HAVE > BEEN > > > > INVOLVED IN COMPARATIVE RELIGION STUDIES AND INTERFAITH > > MINISTRIES > > > > FOR 35 YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN DOING POST-GRADUATE LEVEL QUALITY > > > > INTERDISCIPLINARY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF RELIGION FOR AT > > LEAST 25 > > > > OF THOSE YEARS. I SUCCESSFULLY DELIVERED THE ORAL PRESENTATION > > OF MY > > > > TWO YEAR MASTER'S DEGREE THESIS, BUT NEVER PUBLISHED MY THESIS > > OR > > > > RECEIVED MY DEGREE, BECAUSE I HAD TO GO INTO A NURSING HOME ON > A > > > > RESPIRATOR, DUE TO POST-POLIO SYNDROME BREATHING MUSCLE > > PARALYSIS, > > > > BEFORE I COULD FINISH MY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT. > > > > > > > > > > > > AT PRESENT I AM BED-RIDDEN MOST OF THE TIME. MY COMPUTER IS > > > > INSTALLED OVER MY BED, AND I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, BECAUSE THESE > ARE > > WHAT > > > > ARE EASIEST FOR ME TO SEE WHEN I AM UNABLE TO SIT UP. MANY > > COMPUTER > > > > USERS HAVE DIFFICULTY SEEING THEIR MONITORS. WHEN PERSONS > SUCH > > AS > > > > MYSELF USE ALL CAPS, PLEASE DON'T ALSWAYS ASSUME THAT IT IS > > BECAUSE > > > > WE ARE RUDE AND SHOUTING. IT IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT A REQUIRED > > > > AUSTERITY. > > > > > > > > > > > > WITH MY PERMISSION, BRIAN HAS EXCERPTED AND POSTED SOME OF MY > > PRIVATE > > > > LETTERS TO THIS FORUM. BRIAN HAS NOT BEEN SHOUTING AT ANYONE. > I > > HAVE > > > > NOT BEEN POSTING MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN > > COMBATING > > > > RACIST ARYANISTS GLOBALLY, AND AS A RESULT HAVE RECEIVED > > NUMEROUS > > > > DEATH THREATS AND ACTUAL ATTACKS FROM THEM. SO I NO LONGER > LIKE > > TO > > > > EXPOSE MYSELF TO ARYANIST FANATICISM OF ANY KIND, ANY MORE > THAN > > > > NECCESSARY. THUS, BRIAN WAS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY AS A COURTESY > > FOR > > > > ME. > > > > > > > > EVEN THOUGH I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE VIOLENT RACISTS, OF THE > > KIND > > > > THAT I HAVE BEEN COMBATING, IT SEEMS PROBABLE TO ME THAT YOU > > DON'T > > > > REALIZE HOW ARYOSOPHISM IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE THOUGHT SYSTEMS > > OF THE > > > > RACIST GROUPS I HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IN MY WORK. I HAVE > > EXPERIANCED > > > > THE WORST OF THE OUT-COMES OF ARYOSOPHISM, BECAUSE IN MY WORK > I > > HAVE > > > > COMBATED THE WORST KIND OF RACIST FANATICS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. > > BECAUSE > > > > OF THIS, I GENERALLY TO NOT LIKE TO READ T SOCIETY ATTEMPTS TO > > DENY > > > > THE INFLUENCE OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM ON GLOBAL HISTORY. > > WHETHER > > > > THEY ARE HINDU, JAPANESE, EUROPEAN, SRI LANKAN, AMERICAN OR > > OTHER > > > > ARYANIST RACISTS, THEY ARE TIED TOGETHER BY THE SAME GENERAL > > BELIEF- > > > > SYSTEMS, WITH ELEMENTS OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM IN THEM. > > > > > > > > MY OPINION IS THAT HPB HAD A BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE > > TOWARDS > > > > BLACKS, AND WAS ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-CATHOLIC. SHE DID NOT > > > > ANTICIPATE OR INTEND THAT HER SCIENTISTIC ROOT-RACES IDEAS > WOULD > > END- > > > > UP FORMING THE BEDROCK OF SOME VERY MALEVOLENT THOUGHT- > SYSTEMS. > > NOT > > > > WANTING TO GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH THEOSOPHISTS ABOUT THE > FACT > > OF > > > > HER RACIST INFLUENCE, I HAVE NOT POSTED TO ANY THEOSOPHICAL > > SITES. > > > > MY PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE WITH BRIAN (AND IT IS PROPER TO > > ADDRESS A > > > > PERSON AS THEY WISH), HAS NOT BEEN MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND > ANY > > > > INDIVIDUAL THEOSOPHISTS, BUT RATHER TO EXPRESS MY THINKING ON > > THE > > > > MAJOR ISSUES THEMSELVES. > > > > > > > > SINCE I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS FORUM, AND DON'T WANT > BRIAN > > TO > > > > BE ERRONEOUSLY ACCUSED OF SHOUTING IN CAPS AT YOU ALL, I AM > > > > INTRODUCING MYSELF. I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS AND FRIENDS > > WRITING > > > > TO ME THAT I OWE LETTERS TO, AND MANY OTHER PRESSING DUTIES TO > > ATTEND > > > > TO, SO I CANNOT, WITH MY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS, GET INTO ANY > > HEATED > > > > EXCHANGES ON THIS FORUM. STILL,I WILL TRY TO WRITE SOMETHING > > > > REGARDING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS FOR POSTING > HERE > > > > SOON. > > > > > > > > BEST WISHES, > > > > > > > > HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA > > > > > > > > BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA OF VAISHNAVISM > > > > > > > > INTERFAITH COMMITTEE ORGANIZER, WORLD VAISHNAVA ORG From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 07:44:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:44:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 80095 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:44:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 15:44:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:44:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5329 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Now, put that in your own words Steve...just kidding. But what about the 6 or 7 schools of yoga. Did they not cover all the bases? I mean the two distinct lines: Bhakti/devotion and then the brand which RS teaches Surap Shabd Yoga, wherein one is connected to the sound current within (by a master who has the power to do so). However, they tell you that this sound resides in us all. So on one hand you have science and impersonal form of pure energy (physics) and on one hand some brand of devotion to a GIHF (god in human form) or an external diety or power source. You might have the best of both worlds so to speak but there are not only many unanswered questions, but many unaddressed problems inherent in a system such as this. As for the evocation of meditational experiences I have a thousand pages of same which you can read that I have been documenting for over 30 years! Bhakti devotion is given to the pious masses to help assure humility. So that they will not all rise up and declare "I am God." Now if this were to happen, then you would have chaos or Utopia would you not? Well, it can be argued either way. You will have chaos or divine order, but certainly you would not have popes and masters who declare that THEY are GIHF and YOU, my peon, are NOT. Netemara *************** --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > > > [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed] > > > > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME, > > INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). > > People who look at all this as mere theory miss the fact that from > the point of view of a yogi, whether there is or is not a God is only > of interest inasmuch as the notion is useful in practice. > > Thus Kapila's original formulation of the Samkhya philosophy does not > include any sort of God, but the system of Raja Yoga as laid down in > the Yoga Sutras includes a special Purusha called Isvara (Lord) even > though it is derived from Kapila's system. This is because Raja Yoga > is in part a devotional system and it does not make sense to be > devoted to something the existence of which one denies. Most > commentators on Raja Yoga say the devotional element is there because > ancient yogis found this practice produced mystically interesting > results. > > Buddhism, on the other hand, does not include a belief in God because > the Buddha wished to force his students to take personal > responsibility for their own salvation. The way it has been > explained to me, Buddhism does not deny the existence of a God, but > does discourage dependence on any external entity. This is the > opposite of Christianity, in which the believer is told the > responsibility for him lies squarely on the shoulders of a fellow who > died two thousand years ago. By pulling God completely out from > under the student, Buddhism radically throws him or her back on his > or her own resources. Here again the question is: what position > produces mystically interesting results? > > It is never admitted to my knowledge, but I think this same rationale > applies to the doctrine of anatman (anatta in Pali). Whether there > is or there is not a soul is a philosophical question (and in any > other system but Buddhism a religious one.) Buddhism denies the > existence of a soul because this denial is central to the practice of > Mindfulness and the various techniques for experiencing > enlightenment. Except from a practical point of view, it does not > really make any difference whether there is a soul or not. > > And then there is the soi distant system called "chaos magick." One > website I have seen says the "chaote" strives to "believe" in the > Virgin Mary as stridently as any catholic for the purpose of getting > goodies from her. Then as soon as he gets whatever he wants, he > discards her. A sort of mystical one night stand. There is > something to me a little distasteful about this whole system, but > here we have a frank admission that "belief" to a practical minded > person is utilitarian and not philosophical. > > The mahatma is obviously coming from a Buddhist perspective, as is > admitted in the mahatma letters. But his system is also theurgic, > meaning something such as a planetary spirit can be believed in if it > can be evoked or invoked successfully. This suggests that he is a > siddha or Tantric Buddhist of some sort. Here again there is a > utilitarianism. If the Christian God cannot be evoked, then he is of > no practical interest as far as the mahatma's system is concerned. > > The system of seven principles which he espouses is also a practical > mystical system and not a mere theory. If you once grasp the true > meaning of the system (and I have seen no evidence that anyone has) > much (but not all) of the practice that it implies suddenly becomes > plain. At this level of understanding it is impossible to believe > the whole thing is a mere fraud as some have said, but there are > still many questions which were left unanswered. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 07:47:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 15:47:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 51553 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 15:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 15:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 15:47:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 15:47:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:47:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Netemara? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46.30ca4dad.2affd737@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 10995 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > Ahh, i see what the problem is. I mistook you, Netamara, for Bhakti Ananda > Goswami and replied accordingly. No wonder he was confused and i believe it > was your site that was being mentioned and not Goswami's. Is that correct? > ******** Yes, that is correct. That was my site mentioned. Thanks Netemara > ======================================================= > In a message dated 11/9/02 9:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, > netemara888@y... writes: > > > Subj: Re: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > > Date: 11/9/02 9:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time > > From: netemara888@y... (netemara888) > > Reply-to: > theos-talk@y... > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > > corrected version: > > > > > Hello Nisk, > > > > > > I am so happy you posted this introduction. First I would like to > > > invite you personally to my forum. I have just changed the name. I > > > inherited the forum and the name and just changed it to: > > > theosophy_talks_truth@y... > > > > > > I am a theosophist by birth. I am not Aryan, not white, not Indian. > > > Although while in India I was mistaken for Indian. I can tell you > > HPB > > > was not anti-Catholic per se, she was anti-religion, because she > > > found it to be anti-truth. I have traced her many lives and she is > > > involved in things that people would think were totally racist and > > > the like. But we have to look at the BIG PICTURE. > > > > > > I have posted a picture of myself on my forum and people still > > think > > > I am mediterrean or Indian, but I am not. I write about race and > > get > > > called a nazi and everything else. It is a huge subject most people > > > do not want to discuss, especially whites. So, while I have not > > > gotten death threats I have gotten lots of hate mail. If you want > > to > > > discuss race or your viewpoints you can discuss it with me and read > > > what I have written at my forum. I think you would be most > > interested. > > > > > > Besides I think you must need spiritual healing due to your > > > discussion about health issues. If you are living in India is this > > > because of pollution too? I have spent time in India and while I > > > loved it there, the smoke in the air is bad. On my last visit > > after > > > a month I coughed my head off for 6 months when I returned to > > > Chicago. We used to call it the "Dera cough" > > > > > > BTW: since you are so knowledgeable do you know Radhasoami and the > > > Beas gurus? I followed Charan Singh until his death in 1991. I am > > no > > > longer in that group, but have fond and many memories after 22 > > years > > > with them. > > > > > > I will pray for you and send you some healing energy, if that is > > okay > > > with you. You know Olcott did some type of mesmeric healing. I heal > > > with heat and cold massage of the nadis and etheric body. If the > > > person's karma allows then it happens quite easily, if not then > > they > > > might suffer a little longer and be healed spontaneously later. Let > > > me know, because I think healing is only effective if the other is > > > willing to accept it and I don't want to intrude on your private > > > thoughts or philosophy. > > > > > > Healing is also philosophical and logical in nature. If you are on > > a > > > crusade against Aryan behavior and feel that it has offended you, > > > perhaps it has. Perhaps you were the offender in a past life. I can > > > also help you trace some lives and you might find healing that way. > > > In this sense Knowledge is Power. But HPB writes that the Indians, > > > especially the Northern Indian, where I was, was the first and true > > > Aryan. They DO appear different from the southern Indian. But when > > I > > > was there I saw an Indian for every black person I knew in America. > > I > > > found their twin over there!!! They came in every shape, size and > > > color. So that is why I love India and Indians and have a true > > > simpatico for them. > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > The best > > > > > > Netemara > > > > > > **************** > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > > > Hello, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, WELCOME TO THEOS WORLD. > > > > IT SEEMS IGNORANCE IS OUR (HUMANITIES) GREATEST ENEMY. > > > > THE GREATEST GIFT CAN BE POISON. > > > > MEDICAL PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY POISONS IN THAT SO > > > MANY CURES > > > > HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE DISCOVERIES OF THE ROOT OF EACH POISON > > > THEREBY > > > > EFFECTING A CURE. > > > > FOR EXAMPLE, IT SEEMS THAT IODINE TAKEN INTERNALLY CAN DO GREAT > > > DAMAGE YET > > > > WHEN APPLIED TO AN EXTERIOR CUT OR BRUISE CAN AID IN A HEALTHY > > > RECOVERY AND > > > > BE A BLESSING. I HOPE WE'RE ALL LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY RECOVERY > > AND > > > MANY > > > > BLESSINGS. > > > > ========================================================= > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > > > > > > > Subj: Theos-World BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI USES ALL CAPS > > > > > Date: 11/8/02 11:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > > > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > > > > Reply-to: > > > > theos-talk@y... > > > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami > > > > > Subject: MY POST TO THEOS-TALK EGROUP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GREETINGS DEAR FELLOW RESPECTERS OF TRUTH AND VIRTUE, > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESPECTFUL OBEISANCES. > > > > > > > > > > MY NAME IS BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AND I AM A SANNYASI AND > > > SHIKSHA > > > > > (INSTRUCTING) MASTER IN THE ANCIENT AND VENERABLE BRAHMA- > > MADHVA- > > > > > GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. I HAVE ALSO HAD EXTENSIVE > > > EXPERIANCE > > > > > WITH SHAIVA, SHAKTI, BUDDHIST AND OTHER TRADITIONS. I HAVE > > BEEN > > > > > INVOLVED IN COMPARATIVE RELIGION STUDIES AND INTERFAITH > > > MINISTRIES > > > > > FOR 35 YEARS, AND HAVE BEEN DOING POST-GRADUATE LEVEL QUALITY > > > > > INTERDISCIPLINARY RESEARCH ON THE HISTORY OF RELIGION FOR AT > > > LEAST 25 > > > > > OF THOSE YEARS. I SUCCESSFULLY DELIVERED THE ORAL PRESENTATION > > > OF MY > > > > > TWO YEAR MASTER'S DEGREE THESIS, BUT NEVER PUBLISHED MY THESIS > > > OR > > > > > RECEIVED MY DEGREE, BECAUSE I HAD TO GO INTO A NURSING HOME ON > > A > > > > > RESPIRATOR, DUE TO POST-POLIO SYNDROME BREATHING MUSCLE > > > PARALYSIS, > > > > > BEFORE I COULD FINISH MY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AT PRESENT I AM BED-RIDDEN MOST OF THE TIME. MY COMPUTER IS > > > > > INSTALLED OVER MY BED, AND I TYPE IN ALL CAPS, BECAUSE THESE > > ARE > > > WHAT > > > > > ARE EASIEST FOR ME TO SEE WHEN I AM UNABLE TO SIT UP. MANY > > > COMPUTER > > > > > USERS HAVE DIFFICULTY SEEING THEIR MONITORS. WHEN PERSONS > > SUCH > > > AS > > > > > MYSELF USE ALL CAPS, PLEASE DON'T ALSWAYS ASSUME THAT IT IS > > > BECAUSE > > > > > WE ARE RUDE AND SHOUTING. IT IS NOT A CHOICE, BUT A REQUIRED > > > > > AUSTERITY. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WITH MY PERMISSION, BRIAN HAS EXCERPTED AND POSTED SOME OF MY > > > PRIVATE > > > > > LETTERS TO THIS FORUM. BRIAN HAS NOT BEEN SHOUTING AT ANYONE. > > I > > > HAVE > > > > > NOT BEEN POSTING MYSELF, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN > > > COMBATING > > > > > RACIST ARYANISTS GLOBALLY, AND AS A RESULT HAVE RECEIVED > > > NUMEROUS > > > > > DEATH THREATS AND ACTUAL ATTACKS FROM THEM. SO I NO LONGER > > LIKE > > > TO > > > > > EXPOSE MYSELF TO ARYANIST FANATICISM OF ANY KIND, ANY MORE > > THAN > > > > > NECCESSARY. THUS, BRIAN WAS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY AS A COURTESY > > > FOR > > > > > ME. > > > > > > > > > > EVEN THOUGH I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE VIOLENT RACISTS, OF THE > > > KIND > > > > > THAT I HAVE BEEN COMBATING, IT SEEMS PROBABLE TO ME THAT YOU > > > DON'T > > > > > REALIZE HOW ARYOSOPHISM IS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE THOUGHT SYSTEMS > > > OF THE > > > > > RACIST GROUPS I HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH IN MY WORK. I HAVE > > > EXPERIANCED > > > > > THE WORST OF THE OUT-COMES OF ARYOSOPHISM, BECAUSE IN MY WORK > > I > > > HAVE > > > > > COMBATED THE WORST KIND OF RACIST FANATICS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. > > > BECAUSE > > > > > OF THIS, I GENERALLY TO NOT LIKE TO READ T SOCIETY ATTEMPTS TO > > > DENY > > > > > THE INFLUENCE OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM ON GLOBAL HISTORY. > > > WHETHER > > > > > THEY ARE HINDU, JAPANESE, EUROPEAN, SRI LANKAN, AMERICAN OR > > > OTHER > > > > > ARYANIST RACISTS, THEY ARE TIED TOGETHER BY THE SAME GENERAL > > > BELIEF- > > > > > SYSTEMS, WITH ELEMENTS OF TS RELATED ARYOSOPHISM IN THEM. > > > > > > > > > > MY OPINION IS THAT HPB HAD A BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE > > > TOWARDS > > > > > BLACKS, AND WAS ANTI-SEMITIC AND ANTI-CATHOLIC. SHE DID NOT > > > > > ANTICIPATE OR INTEND THAT HER SCIENTISTIC ROOT-RACES IDEAS > > WOULD > > > END- > > > > > UP FORMING THE BEDROCK OF SOME VERY MALEVOLENT THOUGHT- > > SYSTEMS. > > > NOT > > > > > WANTING TO GET INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH THEOSOPHISTS ABOUT THE > > FACT > > > OF > > > > > HER RACIST INFLUENCE, I HAVE NOT POSTED TO ANY THEOSOPHICAL > > > SITES. > > > > > MY PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE WITH BRIAN (AND IT IS PROPER TO > > > ADDRESS A > > > > > PERSON AS THEY WISH), HAS NOT BEEN MEANT TO INSULT OR OFFEND > > ANY > > > > > INDIVIDUAL THEOSOPHISTS, BUT RATHER TO EXPRESS MY THINKING ON > > > THE > > > > > MAJOR ISSUES THEMSELVES. > > > > > > > > > > SINCE I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS FORUM, AND DON'T WANT > > BRIAN > > > TO > > > > > BE ERRONEOUSLY ACCUSED OF SHOUTING IN CAPS AT YOU ALL, I AM > > > > > INTRODUCING MYSELF. I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS AND FRIENDS > > > WRITING > > > > > TO ME THAT I OWE LETTERS TO, AND MANY OTHER PRESSING DUTIES TO > > > ATTEND > > > > > TO, SO I CANNOT, WITH MY PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS, GET INTO ANY > > > HEATED > > > > > EXCHANGES ON THIS FORUM. STILL,I WILL TRY TO WRITE SOMETHING > > > > > REGARDING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS FOR POSTING > > HERE > > > > > SOON. > > > > > > > > > > BEST WISHES, > > > > > > > > > > HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA > > > > > > > > > > BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA OF VAISHNAVISM > > > > > > > > > > INTERFAITH COMMITTEE ORGANIZER, WORLD VAISHNAVA ORG From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 08:14:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 16:14:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 34123 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 16:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 16:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 16:14:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 16:14:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:14:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9274 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Thanks for posting this Daniel. I have both books with their letters back and forth. And this is vintage Blavatsky. I find the letters between Sinnett and HPB to be a veritable treasure trove of information. Why? Because there is much to be read not only in the lines but between the lines as well. These are letters worth studying in-depth I believe. I think if one can find all the similarities in what Blavatsky is saying as Helena and what she says as HPB I think you might find a bridge to link her with many, but certainly NOT all the letters of the Mahatmas. What's more if she did write ALL the letters then that would make her a "Mahat" now wouldn't it? Or one of the greatest letter writers in history as Heloise (of Heloise and Abelard fame)has been called by many in academia now studying, nay pouring over the influence which Heloise had on Abelard's thinking and not the other way around. Netemara The mysteries are answers right in front of our noses. ******************* --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Mahatma Letter No. 134 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > [Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a > message from Master Morya.] > > Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th. > > Arrived only yesterday, last night late from Saharampur. The house > very good but cold, damp and dreary. Received a whole heap of letters > and answer yours first. > > Saw at last M. and showed him your last or rather Benemadhab's on > which you have scratched a query. It is the latter Morya answers. I > wrote this under his dictation and now copy it. > > I wrote to Sinnett my opinion on the Allahabad theosophists. (Not > through me though?) Adetyarom B. wrote a foolish letter to Damodar > and Benemadhab writes a foolish request to Mr. Sinnett. Because K.H. > chose to correspond with two men, who proved of the utmost importance > and use to the Society they all -- whether wise or stupid, clever or > dull, possibly useful or utterly useless -- lay their claims to > correspond with us directly -- too. Tell him (you) that this must be > stopped. For ages we never corresponded with anyone, nor do we mean > to. What has Benemadhab or any other of the many claimants done to > have a right to such a claim? Nothing whatever. They join the > Society, and though remaining as stubborn as ever in their old > beliefs and superstitions, and having never given up caste or one > single of their customs, they, in their selfish exclusiveness, expect > to see and converse with us and have our help in all and everything. > I will be pleased if Mr. Sinnett says, to everyone of those who may > address him with similar pretensions the following: "The 'Brothers' > desire me to inform one and all of you, natives, that unless a man is > prepared to become a thorough theosophist i.e. to do as D. Mavalankar > did, -- give up entirely caste, his old superstitions and show > himself a true reformer (especially in the case of child marriage) he > will remain simply a member of the Society with no hope whatever of > ever hearing from us. The Society, acting in this directly in > accordance with our orders, forces no one to become a theosophist of > the IId. Section. It is left with himself and at his choice. It is > useless for a member to argue 'I am one of a pure life, I am a > teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations > are for good etc.' and he, at the same time, building by his acts and > deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What > have we, the disciples of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and > of Sang-gyas to do with the Shasters and Orthodox Brahmanism? There > are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the > most pure lives, and yet being as they are, on the path of error, > never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. > Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true > philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the > latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us. > Which of them is ready to become a Buddhist, a Nastika as they call > us? None. Those who have believed and followed us have had their > reward. Mr. Sinnett and Hume are exceptions. Their beliefs are no > barrier to us for they have none. They may have had influences around > them, bad magnetic emanations the result of drink, Society and > promiscuous physical associations (resulting even from shaking hands > with impure men) but all this is physical and material impediments > which with a little effort we could counteract and even clear away > without much detriment to ourselves. Not so with the magnetism and > invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. > Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions > of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around > them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of > power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do not find > it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the > unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and > sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are > Dhyan-Chohans and "Chohans of Darkness," not what they term devils > but imperfect "Intelligences" who have never been born on this or any > other earth or sphere no more than the "Dhyan Chohans" have and who > will never belong to the "builders of the Universe," the pure > Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the > Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. Explain this to Mr. Sinnett (I > CAN'T) -- tell him to read over what I said to them in the few things > I have explained to Mr. Hume; and let him remember that as all in > this universe is contrast (I cannot translate it better) so the light > of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by > the "Ma-Mo Chohans" -- and their destructive intelligence. These are > the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of > bigoted religions and sects worship; and so long as their influence > is upon their devotees we would no more think of associating with or > counteracting them in their work than we do the Red-Caps on earth > whose evil results we try to palliate but whose work we have no right > to meddle with so long as they do not cross our path. (You will not > understand this, I suppose. But think well over it and you will. M. > means here, that they have no right or even power to go against the > natural or that work which is prescribed to each class of beings or > existing things by the law of nature. The Brothers, for instance > could prolong life but they could not destroy death, not even for > themselves. They can to a degree palliate evil and relieve suffering; > they could not destroy evil. No more can the Dhyan Chohans impede the > work of the Mamo Chohans, for their Law is darkness, ignorance, > destruction etc., as that of the former is Light, knowledge and > creation. The Dhyan Chohans answer to Buddh, Divine Wisdom and Life > in blissful knowledge, and the Ma-mos are the personification in > nature of Shiva, Jehovah and other invented monsters with Ignorance > at their tail). > > The last phrase of M.'s I translate is thus. Tell him (you) then that > for the sake of those who desire to learn and have information, I am > ready to answer the 2 or 3 enquiries of Beninadhab from the Shasters, > but I will enter in no correspondence with him or any other. Let him > put their questions clearly and distinctly to (you) Mr. Sinnett, and > then I will answer through him (you)." > > ------- > > I send you my uncle's letter just received by me. He says (as my > translation of his Russian letter shows) that he wrote to you the > same. Whether you received it or not, I know not, but I send you > this. If it is identical with yours then send me back mine. I suppose > that by this time it is pretty well proved that I am I -- and not > someone else; that my uncle being now adjunct (or asst.) Minister of > the Interior, is a personage who by signing his name in full can > certainly be trusted, unless, indeed, the C. and M. and your friend > Primrose invent a new version and say that we have forged the > documents. But my uncle says in his official letter to me that the > Prince Dondovhof is going to send me an official document to prove my > identity, and so we will wait. His other private letter I cannot > translate as its phraseology is far from complimentary for Mr. > Primrose in particular, and the Anglo-Indians who insult and vilify > me in general. I will ask the Prince to write to Lord Ripon, or > Gladstone direct. > > Your's in the love of Jesus > > H. P. Blavatsky. > > Why the deuce does the "Boss" want me now to go to Allahabad? I can't > be spending money there and back for I have to go by Jeypur and > Baroda and he knows it. What all this means is more than I can tell. > He made me go to Lahore and now it's Allahabad!! From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 09:11:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:11:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 27215 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:11:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 17:11:50 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:11:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master M. on Incarnation of "God" and the Radhasoami Gurus Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2370 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Daniel I think we briefly corresponded on RSS forum. And at one point on that forum as sort of a tongue-in-cheek comment I said that "Blavatsky invented the Radhasoami Gurus." Of course that went over like a lead ballon. But I have my copy of "The Mahatma Letters" in front of me. I did not read every single letter and thus was ignorant of the contents of this one. Letter no. XL "No harm and much instruction may come to you by joining his [Radhasoami] Society. Go on until he demands what you will be obliged to refuse. Learn and study. You are right: they [Salig Ram and his devotees] say and affirm that the one and only God of the Universe was incarnated in their guru [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged founder of Radhasoami]." Comment: If Shiv Dayal was the founder of RS then who was Guru Nanak? Merely the founder of Sikhism? And one of the authors of the Adi Granth? Here must be the departure. As the Sikhs are, as the world knows, totally violent when it comes to discussion of the RS and Beas gurus and the use of their book The Adi Granth (I bought all 5 volumes and carted them home from India). Sant Mat does in fact use the Adi Granth. However, it is Sar Bachan which is considered the Bible of RSSBeas. Here you have KH advising A.P. Sinnett to become a Satsangi. Does that mean he join RS in his next birth? KH: "...who [Saligram]innoculates with his vision all the other disciples." Comment: This would be a direct indictment that he is merely a false master, a master of duality. One who confers visions such as light and sound upon his meditating disciples. Some say that with the initiation of some of the gurus they would instantly go inside or see light and hear sound. While others (usually Westerners) were unable to see a damn thing due to what? Due to the presence of a strong brain, mind and intellect which keeps one from having visions. I say if the visions are borne out of the brain and brain activity in the first place or of the mental type creations then it would seem that those who are mentally polarized would be more likely to have visions than those who are less mentally inclined. But the masters, we have their word on it, that the simple people, the regular Indian man and woman is far more likely to have these experiences than is the Aryan man. Netemara ******************* From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 09:22:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 60478 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:33 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAAHMSl12662 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:28 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-222.blinx.de [62.96.222.222]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAAHMPC12613 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:25 +0100 Message-ID: <00dc01c288dd$bee7fde0$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <3DCD3DD4.1596DD81@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:40:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.222 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de brianmuehlbach wrote: > Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, > I don't know what this has to do with wisdom. >From the Aryan point of view the Mahatma Letters are true, but brianmuehlbach is a fraud. Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 09:22:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 80885 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAAHMTh12687 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:29 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-222.blinx.de [62.96.222.222]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAAHMQC12637 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:26 +0100 Message-ID: <00dd01c288dd$bf80e280$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <007801c287f0$4bd75820$5dd17ad5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:46:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.222 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Dallas writes: permit me to observe that Mr. Leadbeater was not (to my knowledge) of H P B's circle in Avenue Rd., and when she returned from her vacation Quite right. Leadbeater was only a member of the Blavatsky lodge in the much fraudolent, twisted and misleading Leadbeater hagiography of Mr Peter Michel. Actually, he was a member of the London lodge, but this little intermix is rather irrelevant if you the author of a "biography". And that HPB signed and gifted the first copy of the Voice to CWL is also a bigot wish of the Leadbeater fanatic. The first documentary proof of the faked chela story I have found so far in the supplement of The Theosophist of Sept. 1923, p. 14, where Annie Besant spreads this deliberate lie. But that is of course not much surprising for anyone who had ever personally contact with the black magic pseudo theosophists from the Adyar "TS". I ahve attended their 100th German section anniversary in July, 2002, in Berlin, with Radha Burnier present. In over 100 years they have learned not one jota. The Masters still fly through the room and looking into the lower astral world and develop lower siddhis is still recommended. Also - under my frequent protest - a portrait of Leadbeater was presented over the whole week in the line of the TS presidents. Here you have the answer with what sort of people you have to do here. But attention: Any doubt and any criticism on their fanatical and phantastic claims - and your are kicked off and accusted to be unbrotherly and untheosophically. You are only a good theosophist when you believe all lies! Truth is unbrotherly and disharmony! Therefore the new motto of Adyar should be: There is no harmony higher than a good lie! Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 09:22:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 59721 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:35 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAAHMU212696 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:30 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-222.blinx.de [62.96.222.222]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAAHMRC12656 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:27 +0100 Message-ID: <00de01c288dd$c025d510$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:49:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.222 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Brian wrote in the below: "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF REFERENCE. Funny that the same - if not more - could be said from Brian's (not brain's) emails. There is nothing in it that is a proof that she works at a University. Frank From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 09:22:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 47301 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:36 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAAHMWE12726 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:32 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-222.blinx.de [62.96.222.222]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAAHMSC12670 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:28 +0100 Message-ID: <00df01c288dd$c0bd3310$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> <000501c2878a$9f2c1c60$bf0be043@u7k5a4> <000e01c287ca$b93384a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:52:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.222 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de If I remember right there was once a notice in the FOHAT that a color and new arranged ed. of the ML is in preparation by both Tony Maddock and Michael Gomes. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Hí Dennis and all of you, Well. Let one of us contact John alego then ! from M. Sufilight with patience and the like... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Kier" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > Morten: > > Curiously enough, I had some correspondence with John Algeo a year or > so ago asking about this subject. He replied and said that their was a > 35mm (color) slide set of the letters, and said that it should not be > too much trouble to put them in a museum section on his web site at > www.theosophical.org, but I have gone back there from time to time, > and it has never appeared. > > But the relevant information is that there is a color slide set in > existance of the letters, and I seem to have the impression is that it > was a commercial venture of some nature, so there should be more than > one set of the slides somewhere in the world. > > Does anyone else know any more details of this? > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eldon B Tucker" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > A few stray comments ... > > > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > > questions and points > > > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the > Mahatma > > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on > PDF-file or > > >another file-format ?* > > > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if > they > > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would > have > > the final say. > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 09:22:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 47320 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:22:37 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAAHMXc12748 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:33 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-222.blinx.de [62.96.222.222]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAAHMTC12689 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:22:29 +0100 Message-ID: <00e001c288dd$c16cd400$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The "sources" of the letters, and the "staging" of Blavatsky's "Masters." Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:54:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.222 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de brianmuehlbach >I went over this already on this list, but never received an answer. But that does not mean that there is no answer. I for one have at least one answer, but see no reason to talk about that with you. Frank From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 09:39:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:39:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 56377 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:39:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 17:39:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:39:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Authorship of the Voice In The Silence Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00dd01c288dd$bf80e280$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3490 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 IMO Leadbetter is just as he was characterised in "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon." I think that HPB had as little to do with him as possible. Now, what Besant had to do with him is another story. She was said to be under his mesmeric control. He was her swengali. I don't know, was not there, but do know that she was/is power crazy and everytime I read (in ODL) how Olcott helped her and said all those wonderful things about her powers as a speaker and her wisdom etc. I get mad. Of course all this happened after HPB died. But here was a woman (red Annie) looking for roots and she found them in the perverted (according to Western morays) boy-lusting of Leadbetter. Now, she did do a good thing: she found Krishnamurti, the boy wonder, and tried to make of him a god. But he rejected it, you know the story. As for Leadbetter: I know he was into little boys, and the astral world, but they (the Adyar TS) apparently have made of the dude a god. I understand that Germans are very tolerant of homosexuality. Does this play a role here in their attitude toward Leadbetter? I hope you are speaking only for this group. As I was involved with a TS group in Chicago, and they were strange too. They did not study HPB's teachings!! They were mostly a group of highly intelligent, articulate, African Americans. But they were atheists in a great way and believed in the Buddhists and TS notion that "there is no such thing as a personal God or deity." But I enjoyed my stay with them. PS: I think (Leadbetter along with most original TS members) he too became a Satsangi. Oh well... Netemara ************* --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Dallas writes: > permit me to observe that Mr. Leadbeater was not (to my knowledge) of > H P B's circle in Avenue Rd., and when she returned from her vacation > > Quite right. Leadbeater was only a member of the Blavatsky lodge in the much > fraudolent, twisted and misleading Leadbeater hagiography of Mr Peter > Michel. Actually, he was a member of the London lodge, but this little > intermix is rather irrelevant if you the author of a "biography". > And that HPB signed and gifted the first copy of the Voice to CWL is also a > bigot wish of the Leadbeater fanatic. > The first documentary proof of the faked chela story I have found so far in > the supplement of The Theosophist of Sept. 1923, p. 14, where Annie Besant > spreads this deliberate lie. But that is of course not much surprising for > anyone who had ever personally contact with the black magic pseudo > theosophists from the Adyar "TS". I ahve attended their 100th German section > anniversary in July, 2002, in Berlin, with Radha Burnier present. In over > 100 years they have learned not one jota. The Masters still fly through the > room and looking into the lower astral world and develop lower siddhis is > still recommended. > Also - under my frequent protest - a portrait of Leadbeater was presented > over the whole week in the line of the TS presidents. > Here you have the answer with what sort of people you have to do here. > But attention: Any doubt and any criticism on their fanatical and phantastic > claims - and your are kicked off and accusted to be unbrotherly and > untheosophically. You are only a good theosophist when you believe all lies! > Truth is unbrotherly and disharmony! > Therefore the new motto of Adyar should be: There is no harmony higher than > a good lie! > Frank From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 09:45:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:45:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 400 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:45:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:45:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:45:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 17:45:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:45:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Notes on Rai Salig Ram, Shiva Dayal Singh, etc. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14610 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Notes on Rai Salig Ram, Shiva Dayal Singh, etc. by Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc In the latter part of 1883, A.P. Sinnett, a well-known Theosophist,=20 wrote about a deceased seer who had lived at Agra, India and one of=20 his followers then living in Allahabad, India: ". . . up to within a few years ago, a very highly spiritualised=20 ascetic and gifted seer [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged=20 founder of Radhasoami] was living at Agra, where he taught a group of=20 disciples and by their own statement has frequently re-appeared=20 amongst them since his death. This event itself was an effort of will=20 accomplished at an appointed time. I have heard a good deal about him=20 from one [Rai Salig Ram] of his principal followers, a cultivated and=20 highly respected native Government official, now living at=20 Allahabad. . . . " Quoted from Sinnett's article titled " 'The=20 Brothers' of Theosophy", LIGHT (London), December 22, 1883, pp. 557.=20 Dayal Singh died in Agra in 1878. Earlier in 1883, Sinnett had given more information about Dayal Singh=20 and Salig Ram in his book ESOTERIC BUDDHISM: ". . . I know one native [Rai Salig Ram] of India, for example, a man=20 of European education, holding a high appointment under Government,=20 of good station in society, most elevated character, and enjoying=20 unusual respect with such Europeans as are concerned with him in=20 official life, who will only accord to the Brothers of Tibet a second=20 place in the world of spiritual enlightenment. The first place he=20 regards as occupied by one person [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged=20 founder of Radhasoami], now in this world no longer --- his own=20 occult master in life --- whom he resolutely asserts to have been an=20 incarnation of the Supreme Being. His own (my friend's) inner senses=20 were so far awakened by this Master, that the visions of his=20 entranced state, into which he can throw himself at will, are to him=20 the only spiritual region in which he can feel interested. Convinced=20 that the Supreme Being was his personal instructor from the=20 beginning, he is naturally inaccessible to suggestions [as given in=20 Mahatma Letter No. 40] that his impressions may be distorted by=20 reason of his own misdirected psychological development. . . . "=20=20 Quoted from Sinnett's book titled ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, 1st ed., June=20 1883, p. 9-10. According to S. D. Maheshwari, "On the 28th April, 1881, he [ Rai=20 Salig Ram] had the unique honor of being the first Indian to be made=20 the Postmaster General of the North Western Frontier=20 Provinces. . . . " BIOGRAPHY OF HUZUR MAHARAJ [Rai Salig Ram], by=20 S.D. Maheshwari, p. 62 It would appear that in the latter part of 1881, Sinnett had met Rai=20 Salig Ram in Allahabad. Salig Ram told Sinnett about his deceased=20 guru Shiv Dayal Singh. Sinnett, who was at the same time in=20 correspondence with Madame Blavatsky's teachers, wrote to Master=20 Morya inquiring about Shiv Dayal Singh, Rai Salig Ram and their=20 claims. Master Morya answered Sinnett's queries as follows: ". . . Suby Ram [Rai Salig Ram] -- a truly good man -- yet a devotee=20 of another error. Not his guru's voice -- his own. The voice of a=20 pure, unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed in misguided, misdirected=20 mysticism. Add to it a chronic disorder in that portion of the brain=20 which responds to clear vision and the secret is soon told: that=20 disorder was developed by forced visions; by hatha yog and prolonged=20 asceticism. S. Ram is the chief medium and at same time the principal=20 magnetic factor, who spreads his disease by infection --=20 unconsciously to himself; who innoculates with his vision all the=20 other disciples. There is one general law of vision (physical and=20 mental or spiritual) but there is a qualifying special law proving=20 that all vision must be determined by the quality or grade of man's=20 spirit and soul, and also by the ability to translate divers=20 qualities of waves of astral light into consciousness. There is but=20 one general law of life, but innumerable laws qualify and determine=20 the myriads of forms perceived and of sounds heard. There are those=20 who are willingly and others who are unwillingly -- blind. Mediums=20 belong to the former, sensitives to the latter. Unless regularly=20 initiated and trained -- concerning the spiritual insight of things=20 and the supposed revelations made unto man in all ages from Socrates=20 down to Swedenborg and 'Fern' -- no self-tutored seer or clairaudient=20 ever saw or heard quite correctly." "No harm and much instruction may come to you by joining his=20 [Radhasoami] Society. Go on until he demands what you will be obliged=20 to refuse. Learn and study. You are right: they [Salig Ram and his=20 devotees] say and affirm that the one and only God of the Universe=20 was incarnated in their guru [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged=20 founder of Radhasoami], and were such an individual to exist he would=20 certainly be higher than any 'planetary.' But they are idolators, my=20 friend. Their guru was no initiate only a man of extraordinary purity=20 of life and powers of endurance. He had never consented to give up=20 his notions of a personal god and even gods though offered more than=20 once. He was born an orthodox Hindu and died a self-reformed Hindu,=20 something like Kechub-Ch-Sen but higher purer and with no ambition to=20 taint his bright soul. Many of us have regretted his self-delusion=20 but he was too good to be forcibly interfered with. Join them and=20 learn -- but remember your sacred promise to K.H. . . . M." Mahatma Letter No. 40 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-40.htm Concerning Morya's comment that Rai Salig Ram had "a chronic disorder=20 in that portion of the brain which responds to clear vision and the=20 secret is soon told: that disorder was developed by forced visions;=20 by hatha yog and prolonged asceticism."=20 Compare this with what Prof. A.P. Mathur writes about Rai Salig Ram: "Huzur Maharaj [Rai Salig Ram] has criticized the various forms of=20 yoga prevalent in the country since the days of yore . He discards=20 hathyoga as a purely external exercise which, instead of generating=20 love for the Supreme Being, gives rise to pride and conceit. It is=20 devoid of any spiritual benefit. Discussing the practice of pranayam,=20 he says that it is difficult to perform it in the modern age. Its=20 ancillary observances are so hazardous that a slight lapse or neglect=20 may result in serious illness or even death. Huzur Maharaj holds that=20 even ascetics find themselves incapable of practising pranayam. For=20 persons leading a family life, it is impossible to achieve any=20 success. He further asserts that even if it is correctly and=20 successfully performed, it will not lead to true salvation, because=20 its gains are limited to the region of Brahmand." Quoted from: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter4.html Regardless of what Mathur writes above, it has been documented that=20 earlier in life, Rai Salig Ram had practised pranayama. See Radhasoami Reality: The Logic of a Modern Faith by Mark=20 Juergensmeyer. Compare the above with what Master KH writes about another person who=20 had practised pranayama: ". . . he has nevertheless, by the injudicious practice of pranayam,=20 developed in himself to some extent mediumship --- IS TAINTED FOR=20 LIFE WITH IT." caps added. quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-56.htm Compare this again with what is given in Volume III of THE SECRET=20 DOCTRINE, p. 502: "Now, the science of Hatha Yoga rests upon the 'suppression of=20 breath,' or Pr=E2n=E2y=E2ma? . . . Pr=E2na, as said, is not J=EEva, the eternal=20 fount of life immortal; nor is it connected in any way with Pranava,=20 as some think, for Pranava is a synonym of AUM in a mystic sense. As=20 much as has ever been taught publicly and clearly about it is to be=20 found in Nature's Finer Forces. If such directions, however, are=20 followed, they can only lead to Black Magic and mediumship. . . . The=20 science of the Five Breaths, the moist, the fiery, the airy, etc.,=20 has a twofold significance and two applications. The T=E2ntrikas take it literally, as relating to the regulation of the vital, lung=20 breath, whereas the ancient R=E2ja Yog=EEs understood it as referring to the mental or 'will' breath, which alone leads to the=20 highest clairvoyant powers, to the function of the Third Eye, and the=20 acquisition of the true R=E2ja Yoga Occult powers. The difference=20 between the two is enormous."=20 ADDITIONAL NOTES: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Encyclop=E6dia Britannica says the following about Radhasoami religious movement: "Radha Soami Satsang . . . also called Radhasvami Satsang, esoteric=20 religious sect of India that has followers among both Hindus and=20 Sikhs. The sect was founded in 1861 by Siva Dayal Saheb [Shiva Dayal=20 Singh] (also called Sivdayal), a Hindu banker of Agra, who believed=20 that human beings could perfect their highest capabilities only=20 through repetition of the sabd ('sound'), or nam ('name'), of the=20 Lord. Radha soami signifies the union of the soul with God, the name=20 of God, and the sound heard internally that emanates from God. Great=20 emphasis is placed on the 'congregation of truthful people,' the=20 satsang."=20 "On the death of Siva Dayal Saheb, the Radha Soami sect split into=20 two factions. The main group remained [under the leadership or=20 guruship of Rai Salig Ram] at Agra. The other branch was started by a=20 Sikh disciple of Siva Dayal Saheb named Jaimal Singh. Members of this=20 latter group are known as the Radha Soamis of Beas, because they have=20 their headquarters on the bank of the Beas River, near Amritsar." Quoted from: "Radha Soami Satsang" Encyclop=E6dia Britannica=20 ---------------------------------------------------------- SHIV DAYAL SINGH=20 "Soamiji Maharaj"=20 Ministry Dates: Mid-1850's to 1878.=20 Guru: Tulsi Sahib of Hathras (according to Beas); no guru (according=20 to Soami Bagh and Dayal Bagh).=20 Successors: Rai Salig Ram; Jaimal Singh; Gharib Das; Sanmukh Das;=20 Partap Singh; and Narayan Dei (Radhaji).=20 Center: Panni Gali and Soami Bagh, Agra.=20 Distinctions: Regarded as the founder of Radhasoami; popularized=20 surat shabd yoga; expressed the teachings of Sant mat in a simplified=20 and easy to understand manner.=20 Sources: Sar Bachan Radhasoami (both the prose and poetry volumes) by=20 Soamiji Maharaj; Biography of Soamiji Maharaj by Chachaji Maharaj=20 [Partap Singh]; and Last Discourse of Soamiji Maharaj and Letters of=20 Soamiji Maharaj & Huzur Maharaj . =20 Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Appendix One,=20 http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/g1.html -------------------------------------------------------- RAI SALIG RAM=20 "Huzur Maharaj"=20 Ministry Dates: Early 1880's to 1898 [apparently started gathering=20 his own initiates around 1884]=20 Guru: Shiv Dayal Singh=20 Successors: Brahm Shankar Misra; Ajudhia Prasad; and Shiv Brat Lal.=20 Center: Peepal Mandi, Agra.=20 Distinctions: Responsible for articulating Radhasoami mat as the=20 Supreme Incarnational religion of all time; expanding membership in=20 the Radhasoami movement; publishing the writings of Shiv Dayal Singh=20 as well as his own.=20 Sources: Prem Patra (six volumes) by Huzur Maharaj [Rai Salig Ram];=20 Biography of Huzur Maharaj by S.D. Maheshwari; and Holy Epistles=20 (Volumes One and Two).=20 Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Appendix One,=20 http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/g1.html ------------------------------------------------------------ David C. Lane writes: "Scholarly attention was first paid to the Radhasoami movement=20 indirectly when Max Mueller included a small section on Rai Salig Ram=20 in his often quoted, Ramakrishna: His Life and Work (1899). Prior to=20 this time, however, Salig Ram and Radhasoami were mentioned in=20 passing in several Theosophical books. Due to the diligent research=20 of Daniel Caldwell of Tuscon, Arizona, an authority on the early days=20 of Theosophy, a number of references to Salig Ram and his teachings=20 have been located. First, there is a paragraph on Salig Ram on page=20 151 of the "Appendix to Fourth Edition" in The Occult World by A. P.=20 Sinnett (London: Trubner & Company, 1884). Second, there is a brief=20 mention of him in Esoteric Buddhism by A. P. Sinnett in 1885 (San=20 Diego: Wizards Bookshelf, 1981) on pages 9 and 10. Third, there is a=20 short description of Salig Ram and his guru in a letter allegedly=20 received around February 1882 on page 251 of The Mahatma Letters=20 (Adyar, Madras: The Theosophical Publishing House, 1979). And fourth,=20 Salig Ram's name appears as a subscriber in the December 1880 issue=20 of Theosophist magazine. . . . " Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Introduction:=20=20 The Birth of a Guru, http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/rsintro.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- David C. Lane writes: "Rai Salig Ram, according to this perspective, did [see Note 1] not=20 start the Radhasoami Faith, as such, but was rather the first=20 disciple and the only true gurumukh . . . to have the Mehr (Grace) to=20 recognize the unique stature of his guru. Subsequently, Shiv Dayal=20 Singh was pleased to reveal the nij mat (original doctrine/path) of=20 Radhasoami Purush (the Absolute Supreme Lord) to his beloved disciple=20 which he had not done previously to anyone. . . . " [Note 1]: "I have termed Rai Salig Ram's perspective as=20 incarnationalist in my M.A. thesis, Radhasoami Mat (Berkeley:=20 Graduate Theological Union, 1981), since he believed that his guru,=20 Shiv Dayal Singh, was the FIRST ABSOLUTE manifestation of the Supreme=20 Lord on earth. . . . " caps added. Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Chapter One,=20 http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/rs1.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- For biographical sketch of Shiv Dayal Singh, see: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter3.html "The first guru of the Radhasoami faith was Shri Shiv Dayal Singhji=20 who was later named Soamiji Maharaj. . . . " For biographical sketch of Rai Salig Ram, see: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter4.html "The second guru of the Radhasoami Faith, Rai Saligram Bahadur,=20 popularly known as Huzur Maharaj, was born in a kayastha family of=20 Peepal Mandi, Agra, on 14 march 1829. . . . "=20 See one of Salig Ram's works at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7849/rsmprakash.html Photo of Salig Ram at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7849/huzur1.gif ----------------------------------------------- From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Nov 10 09:48:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:48:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 85398 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:48:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:48:53 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.19b.b9e0fc2 (3850) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:48:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19b.b9e0fc2.2afff5f5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:48:37 EST Subject: BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI.... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 MY APOLOGIES, ALSO, AS I THOUGHT A POST FROM NETAMARA WAS AN INTERMEDIARY FOR YOU AND WAS WRITING ON YOUR BEHALF. NO HARM DONE THOUGH I SUPPOSE. I STILL REITERATE THE GREETINGS AND THANK'S FOR HONORING US WITH YOUR "INTRUSION". (CHUCKLE) From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 10 09:59:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 17:59:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 26976 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 17:59:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 17:59:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 17:59:48 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-34.look.ca ([216.154.45.129] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18AwMs-0006XT-00; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:59:31 +0000 Message-ID: <3DCE9EAA.7167D4C4@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:00:10 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Gerald, Leon . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=6.0 tests=HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Gerald wrote: <> But/"but" . . . ^:-) . . . "Space"? "Motion"? I'm trying to figure out . . . or at least trying get some kind of handle, in some way, (for the sake of this kind of discussion, say?), on what might be "intentionally meant," (by some people, not excluding myself?), in that context, by "space and motion." Anyway, what comes to mind---or "my mind," as they say---(and of course "your mind," Gerald, might . . . whatever): "Space." I tend to see it as a mayavic, conditional, relational medium-aspect of duality, or of dualistic perception or worldview. Not inseparable, or existing apart from, the parameters of a "individual/collective" worldview, which in itself, being mayavic (being a temporary/conditional "reality"), is held together, or made "realistic enough," by the karmaself "inter-reactiveness" (or exoteric version) that we call awareness, life, reality. In broader terms, I tend to see "space" as being representative of the "freedoms" by which various karmaself processes can occur: such "freedoms" being expressive of such as: room to maneuver, time to think, opportunities to create, modelize, speculate, study, Theosophize, learn, spiritualize, etc, etc. In other words, I wonder if "space" plays a key role in why we're here in this duality world: could there have been some kind of adoption of this "duality life" at some point "in the past": possibly (?) so as to experience (and learn from, in some way?) a dualistic "space/motion" experience that's Contrasting (dualistic) in essence, and thereby, (more importatly?), offering "freedoms per karmaself"---no matter how mayavic such "freedoms" might have been recogized as from, say, a "former and more Unific (or "non-dualistic") perspective? . . . ("former" is meant as a space/motion contrast view as per the mayavic freedom of the karmaself reality). <> Yes, and then there was that Zen master, eh, who said something about not mistaking his finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself. M<<<<>> G <> Hmm. Is that wolfishness as in huffing and puffing in order to blow someone's house down? And I was under the impression that neither you, Gerald, nor Leon, were old and feeble granny's, anyway, to begin with, so . . . And don't you guys have your houses and models built with bricks, or at least with something sturdy enough (like "wisdom and Theosophics" . ..?) . . . ? Anyway, now you got me speculating about what wolfishness might mean, and (if I ever manage to figure anything much about that) I'll be likely trying to figure out about various ways that people might see wolfishness in various things. <>>>> I tend to think/speculate likewise . . . apparently . . . <> I tend to think/speculate likewise, but I wonder how Leon, Dallas, etc., might take that kind comment from you, Gerald. Apparently Leon doesn't even subscribe to this list. M<<>> G<> Good answer, I tend to think . . . (especially that "ooohhhKaaaayyy" part). But (!), kindly note, though, that I used the word "appropitate," instead of "appropriate"! M<<< If Theosophy is seen in terms of reasoning that unifies "self" and "other people," >>> G<> Okay. I meant "reasoning" as per an "exoteric version." < and thus karma is a conditional reality as well. (I am telling you this Mauri, but please keep the above away from your children lest they hurt themselves)>> OK, mum's the word. <> But/"but" . . . what if some of us learned to speculate a little more, maybe, about what makes for hammering of self, to begin with . . . instead of assuming along with the crowd about what's irrelevant and relevant . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Did I get you to look up "appropitate" in your dictionary? Hee hee. Well, maybe it's in some dictionary, somewhere, so . . . PPS Gotta go. Maybe will speculate about "motion" some other time . . . From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 10:05:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:05:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 81152 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 18:05:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:05:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Notes on Rai Salig Ram, Shiva Dayal Singh, etc. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 16795 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 This is a fabulous synopsis. We never used their original names but=20 were always referred to as Maharaji this one or that one. Hence the=20 confusion in my mind.=20 We had a detailed discussion on Neil Tessler's forum, until he=20 deleted it that is, regarding the use and/or promotion of pranayama=20 in terms of it as a means of spiritual progress. We never did come to=20 a conclusion about it. But I posted the differences here as you cite:=20 that we (they) may be talking about two different things. Also RSSB=20 denies the use of the 7 centers in terms of progress. We were to=20 start at the eye center and to go up from there. The centers below=20 this were NOT to be used. In fact we know well the dangers of=20 slipping into the throat center as one would fall instantly fast=20 asleep! Thus you have perhaps the modern bridge between discarding the old=20 ways of Yoga, Raja Yoga and Jnani yoga withstanding, and replacing=20 them with the use of Surap Shabd Yoga which eschews all talk of and=20 use of the centers, prana, kundalini and various and sundry siddhas.=20 Okay, this is the crux of many an argument. Did these masters not=20 talk about kundalini and the like because they did not know a damn=20 thing about them? Or because they were keeping their followers safe=20 and in line with devotion and the spiritual practices which included=20 Dyhan? Okay where did Dyhan come from in which one is to visualize=20 the face of the master? You did not mention it. Thanks=20 Netemara **************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Notes on Rai Salig Ram, Shiva Dayal Singh, etc. >=20 > by Daniel H. Caldwell > http://hpb.cc >=20 > In the latter part of 1883, A.P. Sinnett, a well-known Theosophist,=20 > wrote about a deceased seer who had lived at Agra, India and one of=20 > his followers then living in Allahabad, India: >=20 > ". . . up to within a few years ago, a very highly spiritualised=20 > ascetic and gifted seer [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged=20 > founder of Radhasoami] was living at Agra, where he taught a group=20 of=20 > disciples and by their own statement has frequently re-appeared=20 > amongst them since his death. This event itself was an effort of=20 will=20 > accomplished at an appointed time. I have heard a good deal about=20 him=20 > from one [Rai Salig Ram] of his principal followers, a cultivated=20 and=20 > highly respected native Government official, now living at=20 > Allahabad. . . . " Quoted from Sinnett's article titled " 'The=20 > Brothers' of Theosophy", LIGHT (London), December 22, 1883, pp.=20 557.=20 >=20 > Dayal Singh died in Agra in 1878. >=20 > Earlier in 1883, Sinnett had given more information about Dayal=20 Singh=20 > and Salig Ram in his book ESOTERIC BUDDHISM: >=20 > ". . . I know one native [Rai Salig Ram] of India, for example, a=20 man=20 > of European education, holding a high appointment under Government,=20 > of good station in society, most elevated character, and enjoying=20 > unusual respect with such Europeans as are concerned with him in=20 > official life, who will only accord to the Brothers of Tibet a=20 second=20 > place in the world of spiritual enlightenment. The first place he=20 > regards as occupied by one person [Shiv Dayal Singh, the=20 acknowledged=20 > founder of Radhasoami], now in this world no longer --- his own=20 > occult master in life --- whom he resolutely asserts to have been=20 an=20 > incarnation of the Supreme Being. His own (my friend's) inner=20 senses=20 > were so far awakened by this Master, that the visions of his=20 > entranced state, into which he can throw himself at will, are to=20 him=20 > the only spiritual region in which he can feel interested.=20=20 Convinced=20 > that the Supreme Being was his personal instructor from the=20 > beginning, he is naturally inaccessible to suggestions [as given in=20 > Mahatma Letter No. 40] that his impressions may be distorted by=20 > reason of his own misdirected psychological development. . . . "=20=20 > Quoted from Sinnett's book titled ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, 1st ed., June=20 > 1883, p. 9-10. >=20 > According to S. D. Maheshwari, "On the 28th April, 1881, he [ Rai=20 > Salig Ram] had the unique honor of being the first Indian to be=20 made=20 > the Postmaster General of the North Western Frontier=20 > Provinces. . . . " BIOGRAPHY OF HUZUR MAHARAJ [Rai Salig Ram], by=20 > S.D. Maheshwari, p. 62 >=20 > It would appear that in the latter part of 1881, Sinnett had met=20 Rai=20 > Salig Ram in Allahabad. Salig Ram told Sinnett about his deceased=20 > guru Shiv Dayal Singh. Sinnett, who was at the same time in=20 > correspondence with Madame Blavatsky's teachers, wrote to Master=20 > Morya inquiring about Shiv Dayal Singh, Rai Salig Ram and their=20 > claims. Master Morya answered Sinnett's queries as follows: >=20 > ". . . Suby Ram [Rai Salig Ram] -- a truly good man -- yet a=20 devotee=20 > of another error. Not his guru's voice -- his own. The voice of a=20 > pure, unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed in misguided, misdirected=20 > mysticism. Add to it a chronic disorder in that portion of the=20 brain=20 > which responds to clear vision and the secret is soon told: that=20 > disorder was developed by forced visions; by hatha yog and=20 prolonged=20 > asceticism. S. Ram is the chief medium and at same time the=20 principal=20 > magnetic factor, who spreads his disease by infection --=20 > unconsciously to himself; who innoculates with his vision all the=20 > other disciples. There is one general law of vision (physical and=20 > mental or spiritual) but there is a qualifying special law proving=20 > that all vision must be determined by the quality or grade of man's=20 > spirit and soul, and also by the ability to translate divers=20 > qualities of waves of astral light into consciousness. There is but=20 > one general law of life, but innumerable laws qualify and determine=20 > the myriads of forms perceived and of sounds heard. There are those=20 > who are willingly and others who are unwillingly -- blind. Mediums=20 > belong to the former, sensitives to the latter. Unless regularly=20 > initiated and trained -- concerning the spiritual insight of things=20 > and the supposed revelations made unto man in all ages from=20 Socrates=20 > down to Swedenborg and 'Fern' -- no self-tutored seer or=20 clairaudient=20 > ever saw or heard quite correctly." >=20 > "No harm and much instruction may come to you by joining his=20 > [Radhasoami] Society. Go on until he demands what you will be=20 obliged=20 > to refuse. Learn and study. You are right: they [Salig Ram and his=20 > devotees] say and affirm that the one and only God of the Universe=20 > was incarnated in their guru [Shiv Dayal Singh, the acknowledged=20 > founder of Radhasoami], and were such an individual to exist he=20 would=20 > certainly be higher than any 'planetary.' But they are idolators,=20 my=20 > friend. Their guru was no initiate only a man of extraordinary=20 purity=20 > of life and powers of endurance. He had never consented to give up=20 > his notions of a personal god and even gods though offered more=20 than=20 > once. He was born an orthodox Hindu and died a self-reformed Hindu,=20 > something like Kechub-Ch-Sen but higher purer and with no ambition=20 to=20 > taint his bright soul. Many of us have regretted his self-delusion=20 > but he was too good to be forcibly interfered with. Join them and=20 > learn -- but remember your sacred promise to K.H. . . . M." > Mahatma Letter No. 40 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-40.htm >=20 > Concerning Morya's comment that Rai Salig Ram had "a chronic=20 disorder=20 > in that portion of the brain which responds to clear vision and the=20 > secret is soon told: that disorder was developed by forced=20 visions;=20 > by hatha yog and prolonged asceticism."=20 >=20 > Compare this with what Prof. A.P. Mathur writes about Rai Salig Ram: >=20 > "Huzur Maharaj [Rai Salig Ram] has criticized the various forms of=20 > yoga prevalent in the country since the days of yore . He discards=20 > hathyoga as a purely external exercise which, instead of generating=20 > love for the Supreme Being, gives rise to pride and conceit. It is=20 > devoid of any spiritual benefit. Discussing the practice of=20 pranayam,=20 > he says that it is difficult to perform it in the modern age. Its=20 > ancillary observances are so hazardous that a slight lapse or=20 neglect=20 > may result in serious illness or even death. Huzur Maharaj holds=20 that=20 > even ascetics find themselves incapable of practising pranayam. For=20 > persons leading a family life, it is impossible to achieve any=20 > success. He further asserts that even if it is correctly and=20 > successfully performed, it will not lead to true salvation, because=20 > its gains are limited to the region of Brahmand." Quoted from: > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter4.html >=20 > Regardless of what Mathur writes above, it has been documented that=20 > earlier in life, Rai Salig Ram had practised pranayama. > See Radhasoami Reality: The Logic of a Modern Faith by Mark=20 > Juergensmeyer. >=20 > Compare the above with what Master KH writes about another person=20 who=20 > had practised pranayama: >=20 > ". . . he has nevertheless, by the injudicious practice of=20 pranayam,=20 > developed in himself to some extent mediumship --- IS TAINTED FOR=20 > LIFE WITH IT." caps added. quoted from: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-56.htm >=20 > Compare this again with what is given in Volume III of THE SECRET=20 > DOCTRINE, p. 502: >=20 > "Now, the science of Hatha Yoga rests upon the 'suppression of=20 > breath,' or Pr=E2n=E2y=E2ma? . . . Pr=E2na, as said, is not > J=EEva, the eternal=20 > fount of life immortal; nor is it connected in any way with=20 Pranava,=20 > as some think, for Pranava is a synonym of AUM in a mystic sense.=20 As=20 > much as has ever been taught publicly and clearly about it is to be=20 > found in Nature's Finer Forces. If such directions, however, are=20 > followed, they can only lead to Black Magic and mediumship. . . .=20 The=20 > science of the Five Breaths, the moist, the fiery, the airy, etc.,=20 > has a twofold significance and two applications. The T=E2ntrikas > take it literally, as relating to the regulation of the vital, lung=20 > breath, whereas the ancient R=E2ja Yog=EEs understood it as > referring to the mental or 'will' breath, which alone leads to the=20 > highest clairvoyant powers, to the function of the Third Eye, and=20 the=20 > acquisition of the true R=E2ja Yoga Occult powers. The difference=20 > between the two is enormous."=20 >=20 >=20 > ADDITIONAL NOTES: >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Encyclop=E6dia Britannica says the following about Radhasoami > religious movement: >=20 > "Radha Soami Satsang . . . also called Radhasvami Satsang,=20=20 esoteric=20 > religious sect of India that has followers among both Hindus and=20 > Sikhs. The sect was founded in 1861 by Siva Dayal Saheb [Shiva=20 Dayal=20 > Singh] (also called Sivdayal), a Hindu banker of Agra, who believed=20 > that human beings could perfect their highest capabilities only=20 > through repetition of the sabd ('sound'), or nam ('name'), of the=20 > Lord. Radha soami signifies the union of the soul with God, the=20 name=20 > of God, and the sound heard internally that emanates from God.=20 Great=20 > emphasis is placed on the 'congregation of truthful people,' the=20 > satsang."=20 >=20 > "On the death of Siva Dayal Saheb, the Radha Soami sect split into=20 > two factions. The main group remained [under the leadership or=20 > guruship of Rai Salig Ram] at Agra. The other branch was started by=20 a=20 > Sikh disciple of Siva Dayal Saheb named Jaimal Singh. Members of=20 this=20 > latter group are known as the Radha Soamis of Beas, because they=20 have=20 > their headquarters on the bank of the Beas River, near Amritsar." >=20 > Quoted from: "Radha Soami Satsang" Encyclop=E6dia Britannica=20 > >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > SHIV DAYAL SINGH=20 > "Soamiji Maharaj"=20 > Ministry Dates: Mid-1850's to 1878.=20 > Guru: Tulsi Sahib of Hathras (according to Beas); no guru=20 (according=20 > to Soami Bagh and Dayal Bagh).=20 > Successors: Rai Salig Ram; Jaimal Singh; Gharib Das; Sanmukh Das;=20 > Partap Singh; and Narayan Dei (Radhaji).=20 > Center: Panni Gali and Soami Bagh, Agra.=20 > Distinctions: Regarded as the founder of Radhasoami; popularized=20 > surat shabd yoga; expressed the teachings of Sant mat in a=20 simplified=20 > and easy to understand manner.=20 > Sources: Sar Bachan Radhasoami (both the prose and poetry volumes)=20 by=20 > Soamiji Maharaj; Biography of Soamiji Maharaj by Chachaji Maharaj=20 > [Partap Singh]; and Last Discourse of Soamiji Maharaj and Letters=20 of=20 > Soamiji Maharaj & Huzur Maharaj . >=20=20 > Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Appendix One,=20 > http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/g1.html >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------- > RAI SALIG RAM=20 > "Huzur Maharaj"=20 > Ministry Dates: Early 1880's to 1898 [apparently started gathering=20 > his own initiates around 1884]=20 > Guru: Shiv Dayal Singh=20 > Successors: Brahm Shankar Misra; Ajudhia Prasad; and Shiv Brat Lal.=20 > Center: Peepal Mandi, Agra.=20 > Distinctions: Responsible for articulating Radhasoami mat as the=20 > Supreme Incarnational religion of all time; expanding membership in=20 > the Radhasoami movement; publishing the writings of Shiv Dayal=20 Singh=20 > as well as his own.=20 > Sources: Prem Patra (six volumes) by Huzur Maharaj [Rai Salig Ram];=20 > Biography of Huzur Maharaj by S.D. Maheshwari; and Holy Epistles=20 > (Volumes One and Two).=20 >=20 > Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Appendix One,=20 > http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/g1.html >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > David C. Lane writes: >=20 > "Scholarly attention was first paid to the Radhasoami movement=20 > indirectly when Max Mueller included a small section on Rai Salig=20 Ram=20 > in his often quoted, Ramakrishna: His Life and Work (1899). Prior=20 to=20 > this time, however, Salig Ram and Radhasoami were mentioned in=20 > passing in several Theosophical books. Due to the diligent research=20 > of Daniel Caldwell of Tuscon, Arizona, an authority on the early=20 days=20 > of Theosophy, a number of references to Salig Ram and his teachings=20 > have been located. First, there is a paragraph on Salig Ram on page=20 > 151 of the "Appendix to Fourth Edition" in The Occult World by A.=20 P.=20 > Sinnett (London: Trubner & Company, 1884). Second, there is a brief=20 > mention of him in Esoteric Buddhism by A. P. Sinnett in 1885 (San=20 > Diego: Wizards Bookshelf, 1981) on pages 9 and 10. Third, there is=20 a=20 > short description of Salig Ram and his guru in a letter allegedly=20 > received around February 1882 on page 251 of The Mahatma Letters=20 > (Adyar, Madras: The Theosophical Publishing House, 1979). And=20 fourth,=20 > Salig Ram's name appears as a subscriber in the December 1880 issue=20 > of Theosophist magazine. . . . " >=20 > Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition,=20 Introduction:=20=20 > The Birth of a Guru, http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/rsintro.html >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > David C. Lane writes: >=20 > "Rai Salig Ram, according to this perspective, did [see Note 1] not=20 > start the Radhasoami Faith, as such, but was rather the first=20 > disciple and the only true gurumukh . . . to have the Mehr (Grace)=20 to=20 > recognize the unique stature of his guru. Subsequently, Shiv Dayal=20 > Singh was pleased to reveal the nij mat (original doctrine/path) of=20 > Radhasoami Purush (the Absolute Supreme Lord) to his beloved=20 disciple=20 > which he had not done previously to anyone. . . . " >=20 > [Note 1]: "I have termed Rai Salig Ram's perspective as=20 > incarnationalist in my M.A. thesis, Radhasoami Mat (Berkeley:=20 > Graduate Theological Union, 1981), since he believed that his guru,=20 > Shiv Dayal Singh, was the FIRST ABSOLUTE manifestation of the=20 Supreme=20 > Lord on earth. . . . " caps added. >=20 > Quoted from David C. Lane's The Radhasoami Tradition, Chapter One,=20 > http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/rs1.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > For biographical sketch of Shiv Dayal Singh, see: >=20 > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter3.html >=20 > "The first guru of the Radhasoami faith was Shri Shiv Dayal Singhji=20 > who was later named Soamiji Maharaj. . . . " >=20 > For biographical sketch of Rai Salig Ram, see: >=20 > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9563/chapter4.html >=20 > "The second guru of the Radhasoami Faith, Rai Saligram Bahadur,=20 > popularly known as Huzur Maharaj, was born in a kayastha family of=20 > Peepal Mandi, Agra, on 14 march 1829. . . . "=20 >=20 > See one of Salig Ram's works at: >=20 > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7849/rsmprakash.html >=20 > Photo of Salig Ram at: >=20 > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7849/huzur1.gif >=20 > ----------------------------------------------- From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 10 10:11:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:11:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 49614 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:11:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:11:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:11:41 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-08-41.look.ca ([216.154.46.136] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18AwYO-0002wC-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3DCEA179.892AC0C6@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:12:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: correction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.6 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Misleadingly I wrote: <> I meant that apparently Leon doesn't sub to Theos-1 Mauri From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 10:13:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:13:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 30336 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:13:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:13:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:13:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 18:13:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:13:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2444 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Master Koot Hoomi [ http://koothoomi.net ] once wrote: "Your best method is to concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you. Make his image in your heart and a focus of concentration so as to lose all sense of bodily existence in the one thought. . . ." "Every one of you create for yourself a Master. Give him birth and objective being before you in the Astral Light. If he is a real Master he will send his Voice. If he is not a real Master, then the Voice will be that of the Higher Self." Quoted from an E.S.T.S. document. COMPARE the above with the choice quotes below from THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE: "Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE-SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice. . . ." "Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD [The Higher SELF.] in seven manners. . . . " "Silence thy thoughts and fix thy whole attention on thy Master whom yet thou dost not see, but whom thou feelest. . . ." "Merge into one sense thy senses, if thou would'st be secure against the foe. 'Tis by that sense alone which lies concealed within the hollow of thy brain, that the steep path which leadeth to thy Master may be disclosed before thy Soul's dim eyes." "The light from the ONE Master, the one unfading golden light of Spirit, shoots its effulgent beams on the disciple from the very first. Its rays thread through the thick dark clouds of matter. . . ." "Of teachers there are many; the MASTER-SOUL is one, Alaya, the Universal Soul. Live in that MASTER as ITS ray in thee. Live in thy fellows as they live in IT. . . ." "All is impermanent in man except the pure bright essence of Alaya. Man is its crystal ray; a beam of light immaculate within, a form of clay material upon the lower surface. That beam is thy life-guide and thy true Self, the Watcher and the silent Thinker, the victim of thy lower Self. . . ." "Thy Soul-gaze centre on the One Pure Light . . . ." For more quotes from THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, see: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/voiceselectedextracts.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES publishes rare & hard-to-find source documents on Madame H.P. Blavatsky. http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 10:25:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:25:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 28334 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:25:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 18:25:36 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:25:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4105 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside > you." > > Master Koot Hoomi [ http://koothoomi.net ] once wrote: > > "Your best method is to concentrate on the Master as a > Living Man inside you. Make his image in your heart > and a focus of concentration so as to lose all sense > of bodily existence in the one thought. . . ." ************ That makes sense. The same method, different name. And BTW this was spoken of by Charan and other masters as being THE MOST difficult of spiritual practices, to have that visualization of the master within. But it is still YOUR creation. It is still YOUR illusion. But at least it is the path that you have created, your oversoul, your inner gaze focussed on the focus. This is the sine quo non of those who are beholden to a cult. That they are unaware that this outer physical man/master is but the template on which to create their own inner master. This Dyhan was priceless it was said. They would say that even those who spend a great deal of time with the master do not and cannot do Dyhan. This was the holy grail among Satsangis: visualizing the master within or having dreams of him. My question then: does this difficultly arise because once this has been accomplished the disciple has become the master or is about to embark on the ladder and ascend the sounds as HPB describes in "The Voice of the Silence"? I like to think this is so. When I had the first experience of the inner master externalizing and making me hear his voice it was the most thrilling experience of my life. But I had no physical master at the time. What or who was it I asked myself for years? The answer came back as it only could return: It is YOU, I AM. You are the object of your search. Love that. Thanks Netemara *************** > > "Every one of you create for yourself a Master. Give > him birth and objective being before you in the Astral > Light. If he is a real Master he will send his Voice. > If he is not a real Master, then the Voice will be > that of the Higher Self." Quoted from an E.S.T.S. > document. > > COMPARE the above with the choice quotes below from > THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE: > > "Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the > sixth, the middle region, the place between thine > eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE-SOUL, the > voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice. . . ." > > "Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper > rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to > hear the voice of thy inner GOD [The Higher SELF.] in > seven manners. . . . " > > "Silence thy thoughts and fix thy whole attention on > thy Master whom yet thou dost not see, but whom thou > feelest. . . ." > > "Merge into one sense thy senses, if thou would'st be > secure against the foe. 'Tis by that sense alone which > lies concealed within the hollow of thy brain, that > the steep path which leadeth to thy Master may be > disclosed before thy Soul's dim eyes." > > "The light from the ONE Master, the one unfading > golden light of Spirit, shoots its effulgent beams on > the disciple from the very first. Its rays thread > through the thick dark clouds of matter. . . ." > > "Of teachers there are many; the MASTER-SOUL is one, > Alaya, the Universal Soul. Live in that MASTER as ITS > ray in thee. Live in thy fellows as they live in IT. . > . ." > > "All is impermanent in man except the pure bright > essence of Alaya. Man is its crystal ray; a beam of > light immaculate within, a form of clay material upon > the lower surface. That beam is thy life-guide and > thy true Self, the Watcher and the silent Thinker, the > victim of thy lower Self. . . ." > > "Thy Soul-gaze centre on the One Pure Light . . . ." > > For more quotes from THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, see: > > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/voiceselectedextracts.htm > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > publishes rare & hard-to-find source > documents on Madame H.P. Blavatsky. > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 10 10:33:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:33:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 18872 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:33:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:33:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:33:19 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 342605EEF4C for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:33:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006401c288e6$eee16640$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> <000501c2878a$9f2c1c60$bf0be043@u7k5a4> <000e01c287ca$b93384a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <00df01c288dd$c0bd3310$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:28:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all of you, Yes ? But, that kind of action seems not to have had any effect yet. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > If I remember right there was once a notice in the FOHAT that a color and > new arranged ed. of the ML is in preparation by both Tony Maddock and > Michael Gomes. > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > Hí Dennis and all of you, > > Well. Let one of us contact John alego then ! > > from > M. Sufilight with patience and the like... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Kier" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > Morten: > > > > Curiously enough, I had some correspondence with John Algeo a year or > > so ago asking about this subject. He replied and said that their was a > > 35mm (color) slide set of the letters, and said that it should not be > > too much trouble to put them in a museum section on his web site at > > www.theosophical.org, but I have gone back there from time to time, > > and it has never appeared. > > > > But the relevant information is that there is a color slide set in > > existance of the letters, and I seem to have the impression is that it > > was a commercial venture of some nature, so there should be more than > > one set of the slides somewhere in the world. > > > > Does anyone else know any more details of this? > > > > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eldon B Tucker" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > > Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > > > > A few stray comments ... > > > > > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > > > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > > > questions and points > > > > > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the > > Mahatma > > > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on > > PDF-file or > > > >another file-format ?* > > > > > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > > > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if > > they > > > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would > > have > > > the final say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 10 10:47:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 18:47:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 53307 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 18:47:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 18:47:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 18:47:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 18:47:52 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:47:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: More on Avalokiteswara Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 15242 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Earlier this morning, I quoted KH on Avalokiteswara: . . . And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra- cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find -- each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara. . . . K.H." Mahatma Letter No. 82: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-82.htm Below is more in another letter from KH on Avalokitesvara: Mahatma Letter No. 59 from Master KH to A.P. Sinnett http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-59.htm . . . Now that you are at the centre of modern Buddhistic exegesis, in personal relations with some of the clever commentators (from whom the holy Devas deliver us!) I shall draw your attention to a few things which are really as discreditable to the perceptions of even non-initiates, as they are misleading to the general public. The more one reads such speculations as those of Messrs. Rhys Davids, Lillie, etc. -- the less can one bring himself to believe that the unregenerate Western mind can ever get at the core of our abstruse doctrines. Yet hopeless as their cases may be, it would appear well worth the trouble of testing the intuitions of your London members -- of some of them, at any rate -- by half expounding through you one or two mysteries and leaving them to complete the chain themselves. Shall we take Mr. Rhys Davids as our first subject, and show that indirectly as he has done it yet it is himself who strengthened the absurd ideas of Mr. Lillie, who fancies to have proved belief in a personal God in ancient Buddhism. Mr. Rhys Davids' "Buddhism" is full of the sparkle of our most important esotericism; but always, as it would seem, beyond not only his reach but apparently even his powers of intellectual perception. To avoid "absurd metaphysics" and its inventions, he creates unnecessary difficulties and falls headlong into inextricable confusion. He is like the Cape Settlers who lived over diamond mines without suspecting it. I shall only instance the definition of "Avalokitesvara" on p.p. 202 and 203. There, we find the author saying that which to any occultist seems a palpable absurdity: -- "The name Avalokitesvara, which means 'the Lord who looks down from on high,' is a purely metaphysical invention. The curious use of the past particle passive 'avalokita' in an active sense is clearly evident from the translations into Tibetan and Chinese." Now saying that it means: "the Lord who looks down from on high," or, as he kindly explains further -- "the Spirit of the Buddhas present in the church," is to completely reverse the sense. It is equivalent to saving "Mr. Sinnett looks down from on high (his Fragments of Occult Truth) on the British Theos. Society," whereas it is the latter that looks up to Mr. Sinnett, or rather to his Fragments as the (in their case only possible) expression and culmination of the knowledge sought for. This is no idle simile and defines the exact situation. In short, Avalokita Isvar literally interpreted means "the Lord that is seen." "Iswara" implying moreover, rather the adjective than the noun, lordly, self-existent lordliness, not Lord. It is, when correctly interpreted, in one sense "the divine Self perceived or seen by Self," the Atman or seventh principle ridded of its mayavic distinction from its Universal Source -- which becomes the object of perception for, and by the individuality centred in Buddhi, the sixth principle, -- something that happens only in the highest state of Samadhi. This is applying it to the microcosm. In the other sense Avalokitesvara implies the seventh Universal Principle, as the object perceived by the Universal Buddhi "Mind" or Intelligence which is the synthetic aggregation of all the Dhyan Chohans, as of all other intelligences whether great or small, that ever were, are, or will be. Nor is it the "Spirit of Buddhas present in the Church," but the Omnipresent Universal Spirit in the temple of nature -- in one case; and the seventh Principle -- the Atman in the temple -- man -- in the other. Mr. Rhys Davids might have, at least remembered, the (to him) familiar simile made by the Christian Adept, the Kabalistic Paul: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you" -- and thus avoided to have made a mess of the name. Though as a grammarian he detected the use of the "past particle passive" yet he shows himself far from an inspired "Panini" in overlooking the true cause and saving his grammar by raising the hue and cry against metaphysics. And yet, he quotes Beale's [Beal] Catena as his authority, for the invention, when, in truth, this work is perhaps the only one in English that gives an approximately correct explanation of the word, at any rate, on page 374. "Self- manifested" -- How? it is asked. "Speech or Vach was regarded as the Son or the manifestation of the Eternal Self, and was adored under the name of Avalokitesvara, the manifested God." This shows as clearly as can be -- that Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other; -- namely, the Parabrahm and Jivatman, the Universal and the individualized seventh Principle, -- the Passive and the Active, the latter the Word, Logos, the Verb. Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded Christians know that the real Christ of every Christian is the Vach, the "mystical Voice," while the man Jeshu was but a mortal like any of us, an adept more by his inherent purity and ignorance of real Evil, than by what he had learned with his initiated Rabbis and the already (at that period) fast degenerating Egyptian Hierophants and priests. A great mistake is also made by Beale [Beal] who says: "this name (Avalokiteswara) in Chinese took the form of Kwan-Shai-yin, and the divinity worshipped under that name (was) generally regarded as a female." (374) Kwan-shai-yin -- or the universally manifested voice "is active -- male; and must not be confounded with Kwan-vin, or Buddhi the Spiritual Soul (the sixth Pr.) and the vehicle of its "Lord." It is Kwan-yin that is the female principle or the manifested passive, manifesting itself "to every creature in the universe, in order to deliver all men from the consequences of sin" -- as rendered by Beale, [Beal] this once quite correctly (383), while Kwan-shai-vin, the "Son identical with his Father" is the absolute activity, hence -- having no direct relation to objects of sense is -- Passivity. What a common ruse it is of your Aristoteleans! with the sleuth hound's persistence they track an idea to the very verge of the "impassable chasm," and then brought to bay leave the metaphysicians to take up the trail if they can, or let it be lost. It is but natural that a Christian theologian, a missionary, should act upon this line, since -- as easily perceived even in the little I gave out just now -- a too correct rendering of our Avalokitesvara and Kwan-Shai-Yin might have very disastrous effects. It would simply amount to showing Christendom, the true and undeniable origin of the "awful and incomprehensible" mysteries of its Trinity, Transubstantiation, Immaculate conception, as also whence their ideas of the Father, Son, Spiritus and -- Mother. It is less easy to shuffle al piaccere the cards of Buddhistic chronology than those of Chrishna and Christ. They cannot place -- however much they would -- the birth of our Lord Sangyas Buddha A.D. as they have contrived to place that of Chrishna. But why should an atheist and a materialist like Mr. Rhys Davids so avoid the correct rendering of our dogmas -- even when he happens to understand them, -- which does not happen every day -- is something surpassingly curious! In this instance the blind and guilty Rhys Davids leads the blind and innocent Mr. Lillie into the ditch; where the latter catching at the proffered straw rejoices in the idea that Buddhism teaches in reality -- a personal God!! Does your B.T.S. know the meaning of the white and black interlaced triangles, of the Parent Society's seal that it has also adopted? Shall I explain? -- the double triangle viewed by the Jewish Kabalists as Solomon's Seal, is, as many of you doubtless know the Sri-antara of the archaic Aryan Temple, the "mystery of Mysteries," a geometrical synthesis of the whole occult doctrine. The two interlaced triangles are the Buddhangums of Creation. They contain the "squaring of the circle," the "philosophical stone," the great problems of Life and Death, and -- the Mystery of Evil. The chela who can explain this sign from every one of its aspects -- is virtually an adept. How is it then that the only one among you, who has come so near to unravelling the mystery is also the only one who got none of her ideas from books? Unconsciously she gives out -- to him who has the key -- the first syllable of the Ineffable name! Of course you know that the double-triangle -- the Satkiri Chakram of Vishnu -- or the six-pointed star, is the perfect seven. In all the old Sanskrit works -- Vedic and Tantrik -- you find the number 6 mentioned more often than the 7 -- this last figure, the central point being implied, for it is the germ of the six and their matrix. It is then thus . . . [At this point in the original there is a rough drawing of the interlaced triangles inscribed in a circle. -- ED.] -- the central point standing for seventh, and the circle, the Mahakasha -- endless space -- for the seventh Universal Principle. In one sense, both are viewed as Avalokitesvara, for they are respectively the Macrocosm and the microcosm. The interlaced triangles -- the upper pointing one -- is Wisdom concealed, and the downward pointing one -- Wisdom revealed (in the phenomenal world). The circle indicates the bounding, circumscribing quality of the All, the Universal Principle which, from any given point expands so as to embrace all things, while embodying the potentiality of every action in the Cosmos. As the point then is the centre round which the circle is traced -- they are identical and one, and though from the standpoint of Maya and Avidya -- (illusion and ignorance) -- one is separated from the other by the manifested triangle, the 3 sides of which represent the three gunas -- finite attributes. In symbology the central point is Jivatma (the 7th principle), and hence Avalokitesvara, the Kwan-Shai-yin, the manifested "Voice" (or Logos), the germ point of manifested activity; -- hence -- in the phraseology of the Christian Kabalists "the Son of the Father and Mother," and agreeably to ours -- "the Self manifested in Self -- Yih-sin, the "one form of existence," the child of Dharmakaya (the universally diffused Essence), both male and female. Parabrahm or "Adi-Buddha" while acting through that germ point outwardly as an active force, reacts from the circumference inwardly as the Supreme but latent Potency. The double triangles symbolize the Great Passive and the Great Active; the male and female; Purusha and Prakriti. Each triangle is a Trinity because presenting a triple aspect. The white represents in its straight lines: Gnanam -- (Knowledge); Gnata -- (the Knower); and Gnayam -- (that which is known). The black-form, colour, and substance, also the creative, preservative, and destructive forces and are mutually correlating, etc., etc. Well may you admire and more should you wonder at the marvellous lucidity of that remarkable seeress, who ignorant of Sanskrit or Pali, and thus shut out from their metaphysical treasures, has yet seen a great light shining from behind the dark bills of exoteric religions. How, think you, did the "Writers of the Perfect Way" come to know that Adonai was the Son and not the Father; or that the third Person of the Christian Trinity is -- female? Verily, they lay in that work several times their hands upon the keystone of Occultism. Only does the lady -- who persists using without an explanation the misleading term "God" in her writings -- know how nearly she comes up to our doctrine when saying: -- "Having for Father, Spirit which is Life (the endless Circle or Parabrahm) and for Mother the Great Deep, which is Substance (Prakriti in its undifferentiated condition) -- Adonai possesses the potency of both and wields the dual powers of all things." We would say triple, but in the sense as given this will do. Pythagoras had a reason for never using the finite, useless figure -- 2, and for altogether discarding it. The ONE, can, when manifesting, become only 3. The unmanifested when a simple duality remains passive and concealed. The dual monad (the 7th and 6th principles) has, in order to manifest itself as a Logos, the "Kwan- shai-yin" to first become a triad (7th, 6th and half of the 5th); then, on the bosom of the "Great Deep" attracting within itself the One Circle -- form out of it the perfect Square, thus "squaring the circle" -- the greatest of all the mysteries, friend -- and inscribing within the latter the -- WORD (the Ineffable name) -- otherwise the duality could never tarry as such, and would have to be reabsorbed into the ONE. The "Deep" is Space -- both male and female. "Purush (as Brahma) breathes in the Eternity: when 'he' in- breathes -- Prakriti (as manifested Substance) disappears in his bosom; when 'he' out-breathes she reappears as Maya," says the Sloka. The One reality is Mulaprakriti (undifferentiated Substance) -- the "Rootless root," the. . . But we have to stop, lest there should remain but little to tell for your own intuitions. Well may the Geometer of the R.S. not know that the apparent absurdity of attempting to square the circle covers a mystery ineffable. It would hardly be found among the foundation stones of Mr. Roden Noel's speculations upon the "pneumatical body . . . of our Lord," nor among the debris of Mr. Farmer's "A New Basis of Belief in Immortality"; and to many such metaphysical minds it would be worse than useless to divulge the fact, that the Unmanifested Circle -- the Father, or Absolute Life -- is non-existent outside the Triangle and Perfect Square, and -- is only manifested in the Son; and that it is when, reversing the action and returning to its absolute state of Unity, and the square expands once more into the Circle -- that "the Son returns to the bosom of the Father." There it remains until called back by his Mother -- the "Great Deep," to remanifest as a triad -- the Son partaking at once, of the Essence of the Father, and of that of the Mother -- the active Substance, Prakriti in its differentiated condition. "My Mother -- (Sophia -- the manifested Wisdom) took me" -- says Jesus in a Gnostic treatise; and he asks his disciples to tarry till he comes. . . . The true "Word" may only be found by tracing the mystery of the passage inward and outward of the Eternal Life, through the states typified in these three geometric figures. . . . From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 10 11:17:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 19:17:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 70112 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 19:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 19:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 19:17:38 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 726E25F02A2 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:17:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <007601c288ed$1faaa920$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <00de01c288dd$c025d510$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:12:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all of you, But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate on the dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which a "dead-letter" reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters comparatively easy could establish in a newcomers mind. from M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:49 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > Brian wrote in the below: > "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS. NOTHING. > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF > REFERENCE. > > Funny that the same - if not more - could be said from Brian's (not brain's) > emails. There is nothing in it that is a proof that she works at a > University. > Frank > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 12:41:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 20:41:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 86112 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 20:41:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 20:41:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 20:41:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 20:40:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:40:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3038 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.232.12 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > But what about the 6 or 7 schools of yoga. Did they not cover all the > bases? I am not sure I understand the question, but different schools were developed to meet the needs of different temperaments. In his book TANTRIC MYSTICISM IN TIBET Blofeld argued that the different schools are like different grades in the public school system. Mantra yoga, which is based on the simple repetition of a sound, is the most "elemebtary" level, whereas Tantric Tibetan schools, with their elaborate deity visualizations is akin to high school. and Zen is the PhD program. Blofeld's idea is that not everyone is ready for a PhD. There was a spoof on a shampoo commercial on TV a number of years ago in which some fellow made up to look like the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi says "Maharishi say life is like a hairbrush. Different strokes for different folks." The commercial they were satirizing was itself a satire in which a guy looking like the Maharishi recoiled from a devotee's disgusting hair and recommended he use a brand of shampoo. There is a very complex psychological theory to explain why there are different schools of yoga. The devotional schools are actually the most advanced according to this theory, but not everyone is temperamentally suited for devotion (I am not) and so we have Jnana Yoga, Karma Yoga, Mantra Yoga, Laya Yoga, and so on. there are not only many unanswered questions, > but many unaddressed problems inherent in a system such as this. The system opens up to you over time and the unanswered questions are answered. In due course you come to realize the an entire lifetime is not enough to learn everything there is to know. > Bhakti devotion is given to the pious masses to help assure humility. > So that they will not all rise up and declare "I am God." Actually this idea that one must be humble and not identify with "God" arises with the building up of hierarchy. I had a Roman catholic tell me they are taught the pope is God, although not all of them buy into that. But in the first century they were taught that THEY were God. The first century idea was that fellow beings should be regarded as God and treated with due reverence. But this idea is also very empowering, because if your fellow man is God, then so are you, and if you are God, your limitations are all entirely self imposed. Now if this > were to happen, then you would have chaos or Utopia would you not? > Well, it can be argued either way. You will have chaos or divine > order If people regarded their fellow man as "God" as was taught centuries ago the result would be utopia and not chaos. Huna teacher Serge King still recommends this to his students. When he meets someone he says mentally: "Thou art God" to change his mental state. , but certainly you would not have popes and masters who declare > that THEY are GIHF and YOU, my peon, are NOT. That is the historical reason this idea was anathematized. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 13:20:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 21:20:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 17496 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 21:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 21:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 21:20:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 21:20:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:20:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: More on Avalokiteswara Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1067 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.232.12 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Earlier this morning, I quoted KH on Avalokiteswara: The tranlation of Avalokitesvara (from THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, I believe) as "the on looking Lord" is not all that absurd. The same idea can be found in the Upanishads, where we are told that Purusha (the Higher Self) "looks on" with total detachment. Many yogis have experienced this, which strongly suggests the ancient writers of the Upanishads were putting experience and not speculation into writing. KH: "Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other" Some will find this confusing, so let it be said that "unmanifested" means "before the arising of consciousness." Where there is no consciousness there is no manifestation. It might also be worthwhile to say that the pronunciation of this difficult word is: Ah VahLow Kituhs Vahrah Pronounced as a single word with slight emphasis on the first syllable of each part of the name. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 13:51:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 21:51:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 71693 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:51:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1942 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.232.12 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > That makes sense. The same method, different name. And BTW this was > spoken of by Charan and other masters as being THE MOST difficult of > spiritual practices Why? I find that the part of my mind that creates the mental image tires quickly, for which reason I prefer to chant the Babaji mantra. But the only thing anyone should find difficult is to maintain the dogged determination to stay with the practice and never give up despite the lack of results in the very beginning. Most people will be derailed by little tricks their minds will play on them for the purpose of dissuading them. Once you recognize these for what they really are, they are easily ignored and soon disappear. > But it is still YOUR creation. It is still YOUR illusion. I don't think so. This is one technique for achieving the Higher Self connection. Once the connection is established, the Higher Self dispenses wisdom that is far beyond my capacity, so it makes no sense to think that it is a mere illusion created by the mortal part of us. The mortal part of us also cannot see the future, change reality, etc. > My question then: does this difficultly arise because once this has > been accomplished the disciple has become the master or is about to > embark on the ladder and ascend the sounds as HPB describes in "The > Voice of the Silence"? What difficulty? You are ascending a "ladder" which comprises seven steps and leads from kama-manas to buddhi-manas. > It is YOU, I AM. You are the object of your search. But that does not mean buddhi-manas is illusion. As the Upanishad says, "lead me from the unreal to the Real." If you have established the contact for real (and the buddhi-manas will establish its bona fides by revealing the future, etc., which an illusion could not do) you have left illusion behind and are finally approaching reality. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 15:31:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 23:31:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 60570 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 23:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 23:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 23:31:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 23:31:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:31:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2500 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Steve we are not in disagreement but your responses make it sound as if we are. Cut it out....just kidding.... Netemara Thanks for the response. But to put light and sound into play that IS creating an illusion. That is all I am talking about. To merge with Universal Mind is in the Now where there is no time, but there is also no sound, light, color or action, or even space. *************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > That makes sense. The same method, different name. And BTW this was > > spoken of by Charan and other masters as being THE MOST difficult > of > > spiritual practices > > Why? I find that the part of my mind that creates the mental image > tires quickly, for which reason I prefer to chant the Babaji mantra. > But the only thing anyone should find difficult is to maintain the > dogged determination to stay with the practice and never give up > despite the lack of results in the very beginning. > > Most people will be derailed by little tricks their minds will play > on them for the purpose of dissuading them. Once you recognize these > for what they really are, they are easily ignored and soon disappear. > > > But it is still YOUR creation. It is still YOUR illusion. > > I don't think so. This is one technique for achieving the Higher > Self connection. Once the connection is established, the Higher Self > dispenses wisdom that is far beyond my capacity, so it makes no sense > to think that it is a mere illusion created by the mortal part of > us. The mortal part of us also cannot see the future, change > reality, etc. > > > My question then: does this difficultly arise because once this has > > been accomplished the disciple has become the master or is about to > > embark on the ladder and ascend the sounds as HPB describes in "The > > Voice of the Silence"? > > What difficulty? You are ascending a "ladder" which comprises seven > steps and leads from kama-manas to buddhi-manas. > > > It is YOU, I AM. You are the object of your search. > > But that does not mean buddhi-manas is illusion. As the Upanishad > says, "lead me from the unreal to the Real." If you have established > the contact for real (and the buddhi-manas will establish its bona > fides by revealing the future, etc., which an illusion could not do) > you have left illusion behind and are finally approaching reality. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 15:39:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 23:39:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 45430 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 23:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 23:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 23:39:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 23:39:35 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:39:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4098 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Again you misunderstand my essay. I am talking about Humanity and their lack of understanding. I am not talking about myself here. Yes, they are schools of yoga and physical or hatha yoga is not recommended at this time for enlightenment purposes--c'est tout. And on up to the other yogas. The "God identification" is as old as Atlantean times. The power the understanding that energy was God, and the knowledge to use it is what destroyed Atlantis. Enjoyed the story about Mahareshi. In the years I spent meditating I went to bed early and never saw a darn thing on late night TV. I have been meditating for over 30 years. If you want to see what I really think and do then go to my forum and read: theosophy_talks_truth@yahoogroups.com I just changed the name that I inherited. But the sun logo I kept. Thanks Netemara ******************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > But what about the 6 or 7 schools of yoga. Did they not cover all > the > > bases? > > I am not sure I understand the question, but different schools were > developed to meet the needs of different temperaments. In his book > TANTRIC MYSTICISM IN TIBET Blofeld argued that the different schools > are like different grades in the public school system. Mantra yoga, > which is based on the simple repetition of a sound, is the > most "elemebtary" level, whereas Tantric Tibetan schools, with their > elaborate deity visualizations is akin to high school. and Zen is the > PhD program. Blofeld's idea is that not everyone is ready for a PhD. > There was a spoof on a shampoo commercial on TV a number of years ago > in which some fellow made up to look like the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi > says "Maharishi say life is like a hairbrush. Different strokes for > different folks." The commercial they were satirizing was itself a > satire in which a guy looking like the Maharishi recoiled from a > devotee's disgusting hair and recommended he use a brand of shampoo. > > There is a very complex psychological theory to explain why there are > different schools of yoga. The devotional schools are actually the > most advanced according to this theory, but not everyone is > temperamentally suited for devotion (I am not) and so we have Jnana > Yoga, Karma Yoga, Mantra Yoga, Laya Yoga, and so on. > > there are not only many unanswered questions, > > but many unaddressed problems inherent in a system such as this. > > The system opens up to you over time and the unanswered questions are > answered. In due course you come to realize the an entire lifetime > is not enough to learn everything there is to know. > > > Bhakti devotion is given to the pious masses to help assure > humility. > > So that they will not all rise up and declare "I am God." > > Actually this idea that one must be humble and not identify > with "God" arises with the building up of hierarchy. I had a Roman > catholic tell me they are taught the pope is God, although not all of > them buy into that. But in the first century they were taught that > THEY were God. The first century idea was that fellow beings should > be regarded as God and treated with due reverence. But this idea is > also very empowering, because if your fellow man is God, then so are > you, and if you are God, your limitations are all entirely self > imposed. > > Now if this > > were to happen, then you would have chaos or Utopia would you not? > > Well, it can be argued either way. You will have chaos or divine > > order > > If people regarded their fellow man as "God" as was taught centuries > ago the result would be utopia and not chaos. Huna teacher Serge > King still recommends this to his students. When he meets someone he > says mentally: "Thou art God" to change his mental state. > > , but certainly you would not have popes and masters who declare > > that THEY are GIHF and YOU, my peon, are NOT. > > That is the historical reason this idea was anathematized. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sun Nov 10 15:47:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 10 Nov 2002 23:47:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 14771 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2002 23:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Nov 2002 23:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2002 23:47:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Nov 2002 23:47:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:47:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI.... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19b.b9e0fc2.2afff5f5@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3184 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.149 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn --- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > MY APOLOGIES, ALSO, AS I THOUGHT A POST FROM NETAMARA WAS AN INTERMEDIARY FOR > YOU AND WAS WRITING ON YOUR BEHALF. NO HARM DONE THOUGH I SUPPOSE. > I STILL REITERATE THE GREETINGS AND THANK'S FOR HONORING US WITH YOUR > "INTRUSION". (CHUCKLE) DEAR "NISK" (I STILL DON'T KNOW HOW TO ADDRESS YOU !) PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUMBLE OBEISANCES AND THANKS FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THIS MATTER. ALTHOUGH I IMMEDIATELY CAUGHT MY MISTAKE, I WAS QUITE MORTIFIED THAT I HAD THOUGHT YOU WERE INTENTIONALLY CONFUSING MY IDENTITY ON THIS GROUP, AND THAT I HAD POSTED SUCH AN INNAPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR ACTUALLY INNOCENT INTENTIONS. I PRAY THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO HARM DONE TO YOU AS A RESULT OF MY MISTAKE. I HAVE MADE MY SHARE OF MISTAKES IN THIS LIFE, BUT NEVER ONE LIKE THIS BEFORE. I HAVE TAKEN THIS WHOLE EXPERIANCE VERY SERIOUSLY AS AN INDICATION THAT I MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE LAST YEAR WHEN I STOPPED ALL MY EGROUP ACTIVITY EXCEPT FOR 3 SITES. IT WAS JUST TOO MUCH OF A PHYSICAL STRAIN FOR ME TO READ ALL OF THE SMALL PRINT, BUT TRYING TO PICK-UP THE THREADS WITHOUT READING EVERY WORD IN THEM WAS NOT SOMETHING I WAS COMFORTABLE WITH. I AM GENERALLY A VERY METICULOUS AND THOROUGH PERSON, WHO DOES NOT MIS-READ THINGS, SO MIS-READING YOUR LETTER REALLY HAS CAUSED ME GREAT CONCERN. I AM VERY RELIEVED THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND EXPLAINED WHAT HAPPENED, AND THAT YOU HAVE SO GRACIOUSLY ACCEPTED MY APOLOGY. AS FOR YOUR APOLOGY TO ME, I ACCEPT AND THANK YOU FOR IT, BUT CONSIDERING THAT I CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THERE WAS NO ILL MOTIVE IN YOUR POST (THAT I QUESTIONED), I DON'T FEEL THAT YOU OWE ME ANY APOLOGY. YOU MADE AN HONEST ERROR IN NOT SIGNING YOUR POST. THE REST WAS A COINCIDENCE THAT MADE THE UNSIGNED POST SEEM TROUBLESOME. IF I HAD READ ALL OF THE PREVIOUS (SMALL LETTER) EXCHANGE, I WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS HAPPENING, WHEN I READ YOUR POST IN QUESTION. HOWEVER, I WAS HAVING A BAD-SIGHT TIME, AND HAD NOT READ ALL THE PREVIOUS EXCHANGES COMPLETELY. THAT PARTICULAR POST GOT MY ATTENTION BECAUSE IT WAS IN ALL CAPS. IT JUST GOES TO PROVE THAT ONE SHOULD ALWAYS 'READ THE FINE PRINT'. [ chuckle too :) ] MY ONLY REQUEST TO YOU WOULD BE TO ALWAYS SIGN THE NAME YOU WISH TO BE ADDRESSED-BY IMMEDIATELY AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR POSTS. OR, PERHAPS, IDENTIFY YOURSELF IN THE BODY OF THE POST. THIS WILL AVOID CONFUSION AND ALSO HELP PEOPLE TO KNOW HOW TO ADDRESS YOU. BECAUSE I WAS NOT A MEMBER HERE, AND GAVE BRIAN PERMISSION TO POST PORTIONS OF MY LETTERS ANYWHERE, BUT NOT MY NAME, I WAS ALSO PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF THE CONFUSION OVER IDENTITY ON THIS EGROUP. BRIAN WAS NOT TRYING TO BE DECEPTIVE AT ALL, BUT WAS JUST TRYING TO HONOR THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF OUR PRIVATE CORRESPONDANCE. STILL PEOPLE WERE CONFUSED, AND THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING FOR ANYONE. WE ARE NOW CLEAR , I HOPE, ON WHO-WROTE-WHAT ON THIS FORUM. HOPEFULLY ALL SUCH CONFUSION IS NOW PAST, EXCEPT MAYBE FOR THE REALLY BIG CONFUSION IN SOME FOLKS' MINDS ABOUT WHO WROTE THE MAHATMA LETTERS ! [smile and chuckle again :) ] WISHING YOU PAX AND PREMA, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 16:12:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 00:12:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 81684 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 00:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 00:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 00:12:02 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAB0C1413393 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:12:01 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-174.blinx.de [62.96.222.174]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAB0BxC13379 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:11:59 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c28916$f47eed40$aede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <00de01c288dd$c025d510$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> <007601c288ed$1faaa920$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:29:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.174 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de True, too. But I agree with the Nazarene Master who taught: Someone must bring temptation into the world, but be concerned that it's not you. Re the racism slanders: Every normal person knows that's all propaganda from the Jesuits who can't life with an evolutionary sheme. The more that I never heard from theosophic foes any useful definition what racism is. Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism? I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters. Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in evolution? Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would that be unjust to inferior or younger races?) Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Hi Frank and all of you, But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate on the dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which a "dead-letter" reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters comparatively easy could establish in a newcomers mind. from M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile From dhyana@web.de Sun Nov 10 16:12:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 00:12:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 48479 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 00:12:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 00:12:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 00:12:04 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAB0C3s13408 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:12:03 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-174.blinx.de [62.96.222.174]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAB0C0C13389 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:12:01 +0100 Message-ID: <000301c28916$f56d44e0$aede603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <000801c286a2$af6dd570$f2bba7a7@scribe> <000501c2878a$9f2c1c60$bf0be043@u7k5a4> <000e01c287ca$b93384a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <00df01c288dd$c0bd3310$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> <006401c288e6$eee16640$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:30:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.174 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Writing from memory the publication was announced for some years ahead. 2005 or so? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time Hi Frank and all of you, Yes ? But, that kind of action seems not to have had any effect yet. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > If I remember right there was once a notice in the FOHAT that a color and > new arranged ed. of the ML is in preparation by both Tony Maddock and > Michael Gomes. > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > Hí Dennis and all of you, > > Well. Let one of us contact John alego then ! > > from > M. Sufilight with patience and the like... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Kier" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > Morten: > > > > Curiously enough, I had some correspondence with John Algeo a year or > > so ago asking about this subject. He replied and said that their was a > > 35mm (color) slide set of the letters, and said that it should not be > > too much trouble to put them in a museum section on his web site at > > www.theosophical.org, but I have gone back there from time to time, > > and it has never appeared. > > > > But the relevant information is that there is a color slide set in > > existance of the letters, and I seem to have the impression is that it > > was a commercial venture of some nature, so there should be more than > > one set of the slides somewhere in the world. > > > > Does anyone else know any more details of this? > > > > Dennis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eldon B Tucker" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > > Subject: Theos-World colored by the culture of the time > > > > > > > A few stray comments ... > > > > > > >From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > > > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Answering" Morten Nymann Olesen's > > > > questions and points > > > > > > >Are anyone aware of if there is a particular reason to why the > > Mahatma > > > >Letters (as originals) are not scanned in and put online on > > PDF-file or > > > >another file-format ?* > > > > > > The Letters were given to the British Museum. I am not sure who the > > > current trustees of the Letters are, but the question would be if > > they > > > had the right to authorize such a scan or the Museum itself would > > have > > > the final say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 16:15:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 00:15:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 63660 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 00:15:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 00:15:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 00:15:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 00:15:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:15:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Concentrate on the Master as a Living Man inside you." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 984 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Steve, one more thing: we were discussing a definite interface between RSSB and TS. That is why I am positing questions the way that I am. Not because I don't understand something, but because I am trying to place these things in a definite historical context. It is based on the scholarship of people like Dave Lane, Paul Johnson, and of course Daniel Caldwell. In a way it requires I think out loud to do this--so no need for the yoga101. I appreciate your interest, but look at the conversation in that light and then contribute. I have been saying that this connection exists and Daniel is providing me with the evidence from the Mahatma letters and the Blavatsky archives (which I much appreciate) to vindicate my views that were not popular with Dave's forum. I am not asking out of ignorance of yoga but out of ignorance of some of the historical documents to prove that these connections exist-- and where most likely to find the information. Thanks. Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 16:24:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 00:24:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 73404 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 00:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 00:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 00:24:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 00:24:44 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:24:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000201c28916$f47eed40$aede603e@captain5jkmnop> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2658 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Frank, sadly I have come to the conclusion that with PC the mention of race anything, in this country anyway, is considered racism. Yes, pure and simple anything to do with race is considered racism, no matter how innocuous the statement. Now, when it comes to the average interactions I have with people, strangers, I find there is no need for them to remind me that I am not white. So in that sense people are sensitive. But my thing is mostly limited to public interactions with strangers and people I do not know well. For them to inject the element of race in our dealings then becomes an issue to me. That is my definition of racism. And I usually remind them that they are being a bit prejudiced. But as far as discussing it and seeing the truths of it, with people I trust, I will talk about it until the cows come home. The above happens to me a lot because my life and contacts have always been multiracial and multi-ethnic everywhere I go. I do not live in a segregated world by any means. But some people do. Netemara ************** --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > True, too. But I agree with the Nazarene Master who taught: Someone must > bring temptation into the world, but be concerned that it's not you. > > Re the racism slanders: Every normal person knows that's all propaganda from > the Jesuits who can't life with an evolutionary sheme. > The more that I never heard from theosophic foes any useful definition what > racism is. > Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism? > I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters. > > Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > evolution? > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would that > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > Frank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:12 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > Hi Frank and all of you, > > But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate on the > dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which a "dead- letter" > reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters comparatively > easy could establish in a newcomers mind. > > from > M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 10 17:40:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 01:40:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 51255 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 01:40:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 01:40:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 01:40:33 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.62.28598479 (25711) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:40:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62.28598479.2b00648f@cs.com> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:40:31 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, In all these recent posts I can't help but giggle when I remember the "Narada Bhakti Sutra", in it Vishnu says to Narada "Narada-- I thirst--go the to river and bring me some water", Narada eager to fulfill the request takes incarnation, and becomes "distracted". Later upon dying Narada is asked by Vishnu "Narada where is the water I I asked for ?", In my own rendition I see Narada completely surprised and distraught and he immediately tells Vishnu "Oh My God ! I became distracted and forgot, wait and I go again for your water !" Ha Ha Ha John From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 10 17:45:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 01:45:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 28763 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 01:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 01:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 01:45:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.f6.24121d6f (25711) for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:45:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:45:16 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Master M. on Incarnation of "God" and the Radhasoami Gurus To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, Have you known or met Master Takar Singh? John From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 20:19:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 04:19:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 98212 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 04:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 04:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 04:19:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 04:19:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:19:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1983 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.236.101 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > Again you misunderstand my essay. Obviously that is the reason I said I was not sure I understood. If you re-read your e-mail you will see why some of found it puzzling. Since you consider yourself to be so advanced, you might leave off the quotation marks when you are not asking a question. A quotatuon mark at the end of a statement which is phrased to resemble a question tends to confuse us lesser mortals. I am talking about Humanity and > their lack of understanding. I am not talking about myself here. Re-read my e-mail and you will see I said I lacked understanfing of your question and was trying to politely address it, not that I disputed your claims of superior knowledge. > physical or hatha yoga is not > recommended at this time for enlightenment purposes--c'est tout. I do not do hatha yoga, preferring movement to static positions when exercising (and I HATE stretching), but there is no reason why others should not practice it if they wish. One must of coure use common sense with hatha yoga, as many in India have not. Nut one can damage oneself much more seriously with purely mental methods. > Enjoyed the story about Mahareshi. In the years I spent meditating I > went to bed early and never saw a darn thing on late night TV. The commercial was shown during the day in the mid seventies, when MMY was at his peak. I wish I had taped it. It was quite funny. I have > been meditating for over 30 years. Well good for you. I started in the mid sixties about seven years before you. Long enough to know that some things are more easily done by the young than the more mature. Some of my teachers used to say that thirty years merely marked the beginning of serious study, so I consider ,y starting date to be irrelevant and never bring it up or even think about it. We will all always be students, forever. Even the Buddhas are still doing zazen. From gregory@zeta.org.au Sun Nov 10 20:35:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 04:35:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 80447 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 04:35:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 04:35:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 04:35:40 -0000 Received: from [61.8.17.231] (ppp231.dyn17.pacific.net.au [61.8.17.231]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15104 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:35:37 +1100 Message-Id: <200211110435.PAA15104@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: Leadbeater & Blavatsky Date: Mon, 11 Nov 02 15:36:14 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 The claim that Leadbeater was a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue Road= =B2 both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary to suc= h evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after HPB=B9s = death. What is meant by =B3a member of HPB=B9s circle=B2? Clearly, it does = not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES; membership li= sts for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those named. Why was he not= a member of either of these two groups? No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support any intimate= relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which there is any re= ference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship. Leadbeater is known t= o have visited HPB twice between his return to England from India and her d= eath. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there was no evidence in any of HPB=B9s= papers or correspondence to suggest any close relationship between Leadbea= ter and HPB, and Alice Leighton Cleather, a member of HPB=B9s Inner Group, = denied that HPB had ever referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, an= d said she had never seen him at the London headquarters during HPB=B9s lif= e. Leadbeater=B9s own accounts of his life at that period make no reference= to or claim of a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his hist= ory well after HPB=B9s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London= Lodge, and a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was ten= sion, if not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and th= e Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett=B9s quest to mak= e contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in effect, Sinnet= t=B9s =B3Inner Group=B2. Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no claim for= any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his accounts of the= period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa=B9s =B3K.H.Letters to C.W.Leadbeate= r=B2, 1943:68-69.=20 Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that Leadbeater wa= s a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue Road=B2, and the evidence against= the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater=B9s special relationship is obliged= to present their evidence. The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the =B3first copy=B2 of =B3The= Voice of the Silence=B2 is similarly entirely unsupported by historical ev= idence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously enough, he= r inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater. She inscribe= d it to =B3W.C.Leadbeater=B2. This implies either that she did not even cor= rectly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly English joke at= his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or personal relationship= . As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who make them should present e= vidence, not mere assertions in the absence of evidence. Given that Leadbea= ter was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alo= ne. Dr Gregory Tillett From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 03:58:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 11:58:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 555 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 11:58:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 11:58:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 11:58:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 11:58:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:58:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2552 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I use quotation marks for two reasons only: I am quoting a passage, and/or make up some idiomatic term on the spot. Otherwise you are seeing things. smile.....I apologize for the fact that I was thinking aloud in my interest on the subject. And I was talking directly to Caldwell (and myself) and he knows the subject more intimately than both of us. Okay, no hard feelings. Netemara ***************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > Again you misunderstand my essay. > > Obviously that is the reason I said I was not sure I understood. If > you re-read your e-mail you will see why some of found it puzzling. > > Since you consider yourself to be so advanced, you might leave off > the quotation marks when you are not asking a question. A quotatuon > mark at the end of a statement which is phrased to resemble a > question tends to confuse us lesser mortals. > > I am talking about Humanity and > > their lack of understanding. I am not talking about myself here. > > Re-read my e-mail and you will see I said I lacked understanfing of > your question and was trying to politely address it, not that I > disputed your claims of superior knowledge. > > > physical or hatha yoga is not > > recommended at this time for enlightenment purposes--c'est tout. > > I do not do hatha yoga, preferring movement to static positions when > exercising (and I HATE stretching), but there is no reason why others > should not practice it if they wish. One must of coure use common > sense with hatha yoga, as many in India have not. Nut one can damage > oneself much more seriously with purely mental methods. > > > Enjoyed the story about Mahareshi. In the years I spent meditating > I > > went to bed early and never saw a darn thing on late night TV. > > The commercial was shown during the day in the mid seventies, when > MMY was at his peak. I wish I had taped it. It was quite funny. > > I have > > been meditating for over 30 years. > > Well good for you. I started in the mid sixties about seven years > before you. Long enough to know that some things are more easily > done by the young than the more mature. Some of my teachers used to > say that thirty years merely marked the beginning of serious study, > so I consider ,y starting date to be irrelevant and never bring it up > or even think about it. We will all always be students, forever. > Even the Buddhas are still doing zazen. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 04:59:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 12:59:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 55384 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 12:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 12:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 12:59:08 -0000 Received: from pool0044.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.44] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BE9j-00066a-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:59:07 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:55:31 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 11 2002 Dear Friends: AVALOKITESHWARA in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY is as follows: Avalokiteswara (Sk.) "The on-looking Lord." In the exoteric interpretation, he is Padmapâni (the lotus bearer and the lotus-born) in Tibet, the first divine ancestor of the Tibetans, the complete incarnation or Avatar of Avalokiteswara; but in esoteric philosophy Avaloki, the "on-looker ", is the HIGHER SELF, while Padmapani is the Higher Ego or Manas. The mystic formula "Om mani padme hum" is specially used to invoke their joint help. While popular fancy claims for Avalokiteswara many incarnations on earth, and sees in him, not very wrongly, the spiritual guide of every believer, the esoteric interpretation sees in him the Logos, both celestial and human. Therefore, when the Yogachârya School has declared Avalokiteswara as Padmâpani "to be the Dhyani Bodhisattva of Amitábha Buddha ", it is indeed, because the former is the spiritual reflex in the world of forms of the latter, both being one-one in heaven, the other on earth. Best wishes Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: Steve S Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 1:21 PM To Subject Re: More on Avalokiteswara --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Earlier this morning, I quoted KH on Avalokiteswara: The tranlation of Avalokitesvara (from THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, I believe) as "the on looking Lord" is not all that absurd. The same idea can be found in the Upanishads, where we are told that Purusha (the Higher Self) "looks on" with total detachment. Many yogis have experienced this, which strongly suggests the ancient writers of the Upanishads were putting experience and not speculation into writing. KH: "Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other" Some will find this confusing, so let it be said that "unmanifested" means "before the arising of consciousness." Where there is no consciousness there is no manifestation. It might also be worthwhile to say that the pronunciation of this difficult word is: Ah VahLow Kituhs Vahrah Pronounced as a single word with slight emphasis on the first syllable of each part of the name. From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 11 06:28:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 14:28:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 48946 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 14:28:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 14:28:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 14:28:56 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-26.look.ca ([216.154.45.169] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18BFYK-0003YG-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:28:36 -0500 Message-ID: <3DCFBEC4.DCD2AE22@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:29:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Theosophy Study List Subject: re to Leon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote: <> Yes, the various exoteric views, no matter which way one turns them, are still exoteric. So, seeing as we in this duality world seem to be (for the most part?) limited to/by our various dualisitc, mayavic, exoteric "versions," I agree with you, Leon, that there might be forms of scientizing of Theosophy that would at least appear to be "more sense making" (in some way, to some people?) than the kind of abstractions (in somewhat comparative terms, possibly?) that I seem to prefer speculating about on these lists. The models of reality that were passed on to us by HPB and the Mahatmas are, (IMHSO), something that, even without much in the way of innate/direct understanding about them, I tend to find interesting. Apparently Gerald, on the other hand, having had more direct/experiential/"esoteric" knowledge of such models, finds them more meaningful than I can. Not having had such direct experiences, myself, I feel that I ought to not "state facts based on what I have read," but should, instead, try to read between the lines, as suggested by HPB. And so, not having had direct enough experiences of such models, I feel that my options, realistically speaking, in terms of comment making, are limited to speculation, for better or worse. Best wishes, Mauri From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 07:24:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 15:24:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 24335 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 15:24:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 15:24:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 15:24:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 15:24:14 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:24:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 190 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > I use quotation marks for two reasons only My mind must have been tired last night. I meant to say QUESTION MARK (???). From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 07:37:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 15:37:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 19601 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 15:37:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 15:37:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 15:37:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 15:37:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:37:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Gerald, Leon, and . . . Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <111.1b7a26f4.2aff9053@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1027 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Have you any idea why the SD was subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion > and Philosophy?" Dear Leon-Gerald: Be careful. HPB said on the title page that the SD was a synthesis and reiterated that statement in the body of the book and made it clear in the way the book was written that it as a synthesis and Theosopists violently contend that it is NOT a synthesis. One fellow told me he has a hard time with non-Theosophists who point straight at the word on the title page and ask him how he can steadfastly contend that the book is not a synthesis. A Theosophistr in England went so far as to deny that any of the quotes in the book are really quotes. That does not fit into his belief system somehow. That naughty word on the title page is a hot button issue for Theosophiucal Fundamentalists and none of the rest of us have a clue as to why. It is interesting how people can aggressively filter out plain facts of which they wish to be unawate. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 07:54:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 15:54:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 95941 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 15:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 15:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 15:54:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 15:54:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:54:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1961 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Nov 11 2002 > > Dear Friends: > > AVALOKITESHWARA in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY is as follows: Thanks for the quote. The phrase "on-looker" is strngly reminiscent of the way Purusha (Person_ is described in the Upanishads, Purusha in this context being a Sanskrit designation for the Higher Self. This "on-looking" is an experience many yogis have from time to time in which they experience themselves as having a dual consciousness, one mortal and the other completely detached and unaffected by worldly events. I had this experience at the age of 38 when very ill. In addition to a feverish and elirious "me" therewas suddenly another which was completely lucid and altogether unconcerned about what appeared to be my impending demise. This other "me" told the mortal "me" that it had been around for millions and millions of years before I was born and would be around for millions and millions of years after I died. My apparently impending death did not concern it in the slightest, since it was "on-looking" but completely detached from worldly affairs. I had obligations to fulfill in this world and pointed that fact out, whereupon my fever broke and I returned to normal health, albeit utterly drained of strength. All of us have an "on-looker" within us, but this dual consciousness phenomenon tends to appear during health crises. If I remember correctly, Neff quoted an incident in her book in which Blavatsky reported a similar (but not identical) experience as have numerous others. There is also a description in THE TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE which as I recall unfortunately tends to give the erroneous impression that this "on-looker" looks upon the world with considerable anxiety but is unable to overrule the mortal self, although responsible for its karma. To think that it has any anxiety at all would be a misinterpretation of the text. From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 15:12:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 23:12:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 65477 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 23:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 23:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 23:12:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 23:12:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:12:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Master M. on Incarnation of "God" and the Radhasoami Gurus Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 467 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Netemara, > Have you known or met Master Takar Singh? > > John No. I am not a follower of Thakar. But we have discussed him on radhasoami studies. I have nothing to say about him because I don't know him. I have only met Charan Singh (was my guru) and Gurinder Singh of the Beas lineage. Charan was a class act IMO. Gurinder is trying to play catch up to him and Great Master -- Sawan Singh. Netemara From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 11 15:16:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 23:16:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8814 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 23:16:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 23:16:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 23:16:58 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 520E25EF4F7 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:16:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002301c289d7$b7f73280$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: What shall we do for our fellow...Mahatma? Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:11:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all of you, I can only suggest, that people add some more ('of the 7 keys') value to th= e Upanishads. Since Theosophy doesn't differ so much from the teachings of = the Upanishads - i.e. when correctly understood... - But as said it differs= ! (But it is not for all to really learn true Sanskrit.) 1. Some thoughts: I got this excerpt by Blavatsky: "And, because we refuse to accept the fallacies of some psycho-physiologist= s as the last word of science, do we furnish thereby a new proof that free = will is an hallucination? We deride the animalistic idea. How far more scie= ntific and logical, besides being as poetical as it is grand, is the teachi= ng in the Kathopanishad, which, in a beautiful and descriptive metaphor, sa= ys that: "The senses are the horses, body is the chariot, mind (kama-manas)= is the reins, and intellect (or free will) the charioteer." Verily, there = is more exact science in the less important of the Upanishads, composed tho= usands of years ago, than in all the materialistic ravings of modern "physi= co-biology" and "psychophysiology" put together! "=20 ("Studies in Occultism" By H. P. Blavatsky; - the chapter on 'Psyhic and N= oetic acton' http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-pan.htm) ; And this excerpt by Blavatsky: "There is, and can be, no doubt that Vedanta and (exoteric) Buddhism do not= hold your view, but ours. Moreover, one could scarcely dispute that Lord B= uddha--whatever esoteric doctrine he may have taught--founded monasteries, = or that he favoured and assisted in doing so. Whether he expected all his d= isciples to become Bodhisattvas may be doubtful, but he certainly pointed o= ut the "happy life" of a Bhikshu as the road to salvation; he expressly abs= tained from teaching cosmology or any worldly science; he never meddled wit= h the worldly affairs of men, but every assistance he rendered them was ent= irely restricted to showing them the road to deliverance from existence. An= d just the same with Vedanta. It prohibits any attachment to worldly views = and interests, or enquiries after cosmology or evolution a fortiori sociali= sm and any other world-improvement. All this Vedanta calls Agnana (Buddhism= : Avidya), while Gnana or wisdom--the only aim of a sage (Gnani)--is but th= e striving for the realization of the eternal (true reality, Atma).(a)=20 Answer (a). It depends on what you call Vedanta--whether the Dwaita, the Ad= waita, or the Visishtadwaita. That we differ from all these, is no news, an= d I have spoken of it repeatedly. Yet in the esotericism of the Upanishads,= when correctly understood, and our esotericism, there will not be found mu= ch difference. Nor have I ever disputed any of the facts about Buddha as no= w brought forward; although these are facts from only his exoteric biograph= y. Nor has he invented or drawn from his inner consciousness the philosophy= he taught, but only the method of his rendering it. Buddhism being simply = esoteric Bodhism taught before him secretly in the arcana of the Brahminica= l temples, contains, of course, more than one doctrine of which the Lord Bu= ddha never spoke of in public. But this shows in no way that he did not tea= ch them to his Arhats. Again, between "attachment to worldly views or inter= ests" and the study of Cosmology, which is not "a worldly science" however,= there is an abyss. One pertains to religious and philosophical asceticism,= the other is necessary for the study of Occultism--which is not Buddhistic= , but universal. Without the study of cosmogony and theogony which teach th= e hidden value of every force in Nature and their direct correspondence to,= and relation with, the forces in man (or the principles) no occult psychop= hysics or knowledge of man as he truly is, is possible. No one is forced to= study esoteric philosophy unless he likes it, nor has anyone ever confused= Occultism with Buddhism or Vedantism.--H.P.B." ("WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN?" Article by H. P. Blavatsky, oktober= 1889 --- http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/WhatShallWeDoForOurFellow= Men.htm) 2. The following are just views - Feel free to agree or....disagree: Sweet and good words are the best to use. The create peace and ease. But, w= hen people talk about tough issues they often get a crowd. I mean no harm..= . A word on the - to some - possible racism in the theosophical Mahatma Lette= rs. I have to agree, that whenever the fearfull person hear talks about 'ra= ces' or 'rootraces' or the like - the issue racism comparatively easy comes= to its mind. --- And especially when ones eyes meet with that 'strange' th= eosophical LOGO containing a .... a Swastika, whatever that is? Maybe a pie= ce of Krupp Staal or just a few lines of drawing?=20 The frightened ones are not in doubt. And a magazine called 'Lucifer'. Oh dear - oh dear - were are we now? You see Hitler Jugend was no joke - is was seroius stuff (or more precis ev= il business, and that was NO good, and should be avoided): http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/6425/hitler.htm As long as Theosophy has teachings (on dead-letter print) on what to other = and more frigthened people are a "special" teaching on races - there will b= e fear - and fear for, that theosophy will mislead children. Today mind-manipulation is said to be out of the question in Theosophical o= r ordinary schools or at scout-meetings. But is that really true ? And the Racist propaganda =E1 la J. Goebbels has that vanished from the ch= ildrens eyes on TV, PC-games etc...? Or is it just cleverly hidden today? I do hope, that you all will understand, that only non-violence, peace, lov= e, good deeds and the like really can be the path forward on this planet.=20 We will for sure all of our small loyalities have to totally transcend our = race, tribe, culture and nation - if we are going to have peace on this pla= net. As long as Theosophy or MAIN Theosophical groups in their PR and tone of vo= ice lacks being an example for others to follow - it will fail in its tasks= on the Wisdom teachings. The -dead-letter theosophical teachings will have= to be replaced by the 7 keys, mentioned by Blavatsky. ("The Secret Doctrin= e" by Blavatsky, vol1., p. 318-19) Let Theosophy take care of their children with a high quality of historical= teachings in a most TRUE and proper sense of non-voilence.=20 And let children be certain on, where they have you when the talk about sex= uality and A-RYAN races comes around - then certainly no 'theosophical prie= st' named "W.C.Lumsy", his followers or the like will be relevant as a TRUE= theosophical teacher. Atma=3DBrahman=20 Feel free to do your best... from M. Sufilight with ... shall we say...high hopes...and a smile >:-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 15:20:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 23:20:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 94712 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 23:20:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 23:20:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 23:20:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 23:20:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:20:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200211110435.PAA15104@mailman.zeta.org.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4377 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I have been reading about the TS as a group of personalities for 30=20 years now, and combined with my intuition I never thought there was=20 any connection of substance between HPB and WCL. And as we know HPB=20 is not shy. If she had some substantial dealings with WCL and that=20 group...it would be documented somewhere. No way did she give WCL the=20 Voice. I have read all of ODL by Olcott and that is the real=20 historian of the group. While he had more of a relationship with=20 Annie who was involved with WLC and others, even he mentions WLC=20 little if at all. I think there was a strain, but probably suspect=20 that the interests of the two groups were probably splintered which=20 happens all the time in these groups.=20 Just like one yahoo group grows out of another one. There is no=20 hostility there necessarily just people exploring their interests in=20 more depth. Now, we know that WLC did have an interest in having=20 young men follow him and vice versa, plus his spiritists interest.=20 There is a great deal spoken about the relationship between WLC and=20 Krishnamurti in the books about K's life. That is good source=20 actually. Luckily K and his brother were not part of WLC's entourage=20 as far as emotionally. K said he did not like WLC but loved Red=20 Annie.... Netemara ************** --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue=20 Road=B2 both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is=20 contrary to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of=20 course) after HPB=B9s death. What is meant by =B3a member of HPB=B9s=20 circle=B2? Clearly, it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of=20 the IG of the ES; membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was=20 not among those named. Why was he not a member of either of these two=20 groups? > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support any=20 intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which=20 there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.=20 Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to=20 England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there=20 was no evidence in any of HPB=B9s papers or correspondence to suggest=20 any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton=20 Cleather, a member of HPB=B9s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever=20 referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had=20 never seen him at the London headquarters during HPB=B9s life.=20 Leadbeater=B9s own accounts of his life at that period make no=20 reference to or claim of a special relationship with HPB - until he=20 revised his history well after HPB=B9s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a=20 member of the London Lodge, and a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at=20 a time when there was tension, if not conflict, between Sinnett and=20 the London Lodge, and HPB and the Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted=20 as a medium in Sinnett=B9s quest to make contact with the Masters, and=20 was a member of what was, in effect, Sinnett=B9s =B3Inner Group=B2. > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no=20 claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his=20 accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa=B9s =B3K.H.Letters=20 to C.W.Leadbeater=B2, 1943:68-69.=20 > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that=20 Leadbeater was a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue Road=B2, and the=20 evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater=B9s special=20 relationship is obliged to present their evidence. > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the =B3first copy=B2 of=20 =B3The Voice of the Silence=B2 is similarly entirely unsupported by=20 historical evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain;=20 curiously enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly=20 name Leadbeater. She inscribed it to =B3W.C.Leadbeater=B2. This implies=20 either that she did not even correctly recall his name, or that she=20 was making a peculiarly English joke at his expense. Neither=20 explanation suggests a close or personal relationship. As with all=20 claims about Leadbeater, those who make them should present evidence,=20 not mere assertions in the absence of evidence. Given that Leadbeater=20 was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word=20 alone. >=20 > Dr Gregory Tillett From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 15:31:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 23:31:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 10144 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 23:31:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 23:31:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 23:31:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 23:31:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:31:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What shall we do for our fellow...Mahatma? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002301c289d7$b7f73280$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 8046 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 If you really go back to the original intent of TS it was=20 brotherhood. And that is also one of the main tenets of Islam-- brotherhood. Did this get lost in the minds of those who would be TS=20 detractors/derailers? Just because there were honest and painful=20=20 discussions about race? The concepts that SD presented are for=20 everyman. That was also her purpose to make the higher knowledge=20 plain or clear for all men. But she first had to pass muster with the=20 academics, political powers and those who would read her first: the=20 white middle classes. She was a master politician herself: she said what the people wanted=20 to hear. But she also told the truth about the evolution and position=20 of the races. No matter how well it was said, it would NEVER go down=20 easily with those who would find a platform by which to proffer their=20 own careers. One said person, who died recently, Stephen J. Gould. He=20 had a big academic career and used it to try and destroy any=20 semblance of credibility for HPB. That is recent history. So it goes=20 on. But I mean to vindicate her writings. Netemara *****************=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi all of you, >=20 > I can only suggest, that people add some more ('of the 7 keys')=20 value to the Upanishads. Since Theosophy doesn't differ so much from=20 the teachings of the Upanishads - i.e. when correctly understood... -=20 But as said it differs ! (But it is not for all to really learn true=20 Sanskrit.) >=20 > 1. Some thoughts: >=20 > I got this excerpt by Blavatsky: > "And, because we refuse to accept the fallacies of some psycho- physiologists as the last word of science, do we furnish thereby a=20 new proof that free will is an hallucination? We deride the=20 animalistic idea. How far more scientific and logical, besides being=20 as poetical as it is grand, is the teaching in the Kathopanishad,=20 which, in a beautiful and descriptive metaphor, says that: "The=20 senses are the horses, body is the chariot, mind (kama-manas) is the=20 reins, and intellect (or free will) the charioteer." Verily, there is=20 more exact science in the less important of the Upanishads, composed=20 thousands of years ago, than in all the materialistic ravings of=20 modern "physico-biology" and "psychophysiology" put together! "=20 > ("Studies in Occultism" By H. P. Blavatsky; - the chapter=20 on 'Psyhic and Noetic acton' http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb- sio/sio-pan.htm) ; > And this excerpt by Blavatsky: > "There is, and can be, no doubt that Vedanta and (exoteric)=20 Buddhism do not hold your view, but ours. Moreover, one could=20 scarcely dispute that Lord Buddha--whatever esoteric doctrine he may=20 have taught--founded monasteries, or that he favoured and assisted in=20 doing so. Whether he expected all his disciples to become=20 Bodhisattvas may be doubtful, but he certainly pointed out the "happy=20 life" of a Bhikshu as the road to salvation; he expressly abstained=20 from teaching cosmology or any worldly science; he never meddled with=20 the worldly affairs of men, but every assistance he rendered them was=20 entirely restricted to showing them the road to deliverance from=20 existence. And just the same with Vedanta. It prohibits any=20 attachment to worldly views and interests, or enquiries after=20 cosmology or evolution a fortiori socialism and any other world- improvement. All this Vedanta calls Agnana (Buddhism: Avidya), while=20 Gnana or wisdom--the only aim of a sage (Gnani)--is but the striving=20 for the realization of the eternal (true reality, Atma).(a)=20 >=20 > Answer (a). It depends on what you call Vedanta--whether the=20 Dwaita, the Adwaita, or the Visishtadwaita. That we differ from all=20 these, is no news, and I have spoken of it repeatedly. Yet in the=20 esotericism of the Upanishads, when correctly understood, and our=20 esotericism, there will not be found much difference. Nor have I ever=20 disputed any of the facts about Buddha as now brought forward;=20 although these are facts from only his exoteric biography. Nor has he=20 invented or drawn from his inner consciousness the philosophy he=20 taught, but only the method of his rendering it. Buddhism being=20 simply esoteric Bodhism taught before him secretly in the arcana of=20 the Brahminical temples, contains, of course, more than one doctrine=20 of which the Lord Buddha never spoke of in public. But this shows in=20 no way that he did not teach them to his Arhats. Again,=20 between "attachment to worldly views or interests" and the study of=20 Cosmology, which is not "a worldly science" however, there is an=20 abyss. One pertains to religious and philosophical asceticism, the=20 other is necessary for the study of Occultism--which is not=20 Buddhistic, but universal. Without the study of cosmogony and=20 theogony which teach the hidden value of every force in Nature and=20 their direct correspondence to, and relation with, the forces in man=20 (or the principles) no occult psychophysics or knowledge of man as he=20 truly is, is possible. No one is forced to study esoteric philosophy=20 unless he likes it, nor has anyone ever confused Occultism with=20 Buddhism or Vedantism.--H.P.B." > ("WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN?" Article by H. P. Blavatsky,=20 oktober 1889 ---=20 http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/WhatShallWeDoForOurFellowMen.h tm) >=20 >=20 >=20 > 2. The following are just views - Feel free to agree or....disagree: >=20 > Sweet and good words are the best to use. The create peace and=20 ease. But, when people talk about tough issues they often get a=20 crowd. I mean no harm... >=20 > A word on the - to some - possible racism in the theosophical=20 Mahatma Letters. I have to agree, that whenever the fearfull person=20 hear talks about 'races' or 'rootraces' or the like - the issue=20 racism comparatively easy comes to its mind. --- And especially when=20 ones eyes meet with that 'strange' theosophical LOGO containing=20 a .... a Swastika, whatever that is? Maybe a piece of Krupp Staal or=20 just a few lines of drawing?=20 > The frightened ones are not in doubt. > And a magazine called 'Lucifer'. Oh dear - oh dear - were are we=20 now? > You see Hitler Jugend was no joke - is was seroius stuff (or more=20 precis evil business, and that was NO good, and should be avoided): > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/6425/hitler.htm >=20 > As long as Theosophy has teachings (on dead-letter print) on what=20 to other and more frigthened people are a "special" teaching on=20 races - there will be fear - and fear for, that theosophy will=20 mislead children. >=20 > Today mind-manipulation is said to be out of the question in=20 Theosophical or ordinary schools or at scout-meetings. > But is that really true ? > And the Racist propaganda =E1 la J. Goebbels has that vanished from=20 the childrens eyes on TV, PC-games etc...? Or is it just cleverly=20 hidden today? >=20 > I do hope, that you all will understand, that only non-violence,=20 peace, love, good deeds and the like really can be the path forward=20 on this planet.=20 > We will for sure all of our small loyalities have to totally=20 transcend our race, tribe, culture and nation - if we are going to=20 have peace on this planet. > As long as Theosophy or MAIN Theosophical groups in their PR and=20 tone of voice lacks being an example for others to follow - it will=20 fail in its tasks on the Wisdom teachings. The -dead-letter=20 theosophical teachings will have to be replaced by the 7 keys,=20 mentioned by Blavatsky. ("The Secret Doctrine" by Blavatsky, vol1.,=20 p. 318-19) >=20 > Let Theosophy take care of their children with a high quality of=20 historical teachings in a most TRUE and proper sense of non-voilence.=20 > And let children be certain on, where they have you when the talk=20 about sexuality and A-RYAN races comes around - then certainly=20 no 'theosophical priest' named "W.C.Lumsy", his followers or the like=20 will be relevant as a TRUE theosophical teacher. >=20 >=20 > Atma=3DBrahman=20 >=20 > Feel free to do your best... >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with ... shall we say...high hopes...and a smile >:-) >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 15:45:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 11 Nov 2002 23:45:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 14837 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2002 23:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2002 23:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 23:45:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2002 23:45:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:45:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2278 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Many call it the "Witness state" which is also a good description. I call it being in the third eye focus. But different names for the same experience. Netemara ************- -- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > > Nov 11 2002 > > > > Dear Friends: > > > > AVALOKITESHWARA in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY is as follows: > > Thanks for the quote. The phrase "on-looker" is strngly reminiscent > of the way Purusha (Person_ is described in the Upanishads, Purusha > in this context being a Sanskrit designation for the Higher Self. > This "on-looking" is an experience many yogis have from time to time > in which they experience themselves as having a dual consciousness, > one mortal and the other completely detached and unaffected by > worldly events. I had this experience at the age of 38 when very > ill. In addition to a feverish and elirious "me" therewas suddenly > another which was completely lucid and altogether unconcerned about > what appeared to be my impending demise. This other "me" told the > mortal "me" that it had been around for millions and millions of > years before I was born and would be around for millions and millions > of years after I died. My apparently impending death did not concern > it in the slightest, since it was "on-looking" but completely > detached from worldly affairs. I had obligations to fulfill in this > world and pointed that fact out, whereupon my fever broke and I > returned to normal health, albeit utterly drained of strength. All > of us have an "on-looker" within us, but this dual consciousness > phenomenon tends to appear during health crises. If I remember > correctly, Neff quoted an incident in her book in which Blavatsky > reported a similar (but not identical) experience as have numerous > others. There is also a description in THE TRANSACTIONS OF THE > BLAVATSKY LODGE which as I recall unfortunately tends to give the > erroneous impression that this "on-looker" looks upon the world with > considerable anxiety but is unable to overrule the mortal self, > although responsible for its karma. To think that it has any anxiety > at all would be a misinterpretation of the text. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 16:39:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 00:39:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 15306 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 00:39:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 00:39:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 00:39:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 00:39:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:39:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000201c28916$f47eed40$aede603e@captain5jkmnop> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 856 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.235.59 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would that > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? No, but I think you have identified a new form of political incorrectness: FRANK-ISM. Right or wrong, good or bad, the fact is that Blavatsky's nineteenth century ideas about superior (white) and inferior (non-white) races have not aged well over the past 125 years. I think we can agree on that whether we take the modern or the nineteenth century side of the argument. If the theosophical theory is correct, it is not the "inferior" races which are younger, but the "superior" races. From nama_sivam@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 16:48:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 00:48:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 66073 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 00:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 00:48:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web12908.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 00:48:25 -0000 Message-ID: <20021112004824.41315.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.199.232.233] by web12908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:48:24 PST Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: newmember To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: nama siva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=128033841 X-Yahoo-Profile: nama_sivam Hello all, iam new member to this group.but iam already be a member of TS Adyar Lodge.here is my brief intro duction. Meditation_- visual images -Dear friend, I am Namasivayam, born in 1954 in Madurai and settled in Chennai, Tamilnadu, India. Between the ages of 35-45. I have suffered a lot due to various illness. As advised by my cardiologist, I learned Simplified kundalini yoga of Vedathri Maharishi. Now I have fully recovered from all my illness through practicing meditation. During the course of meditation I have been experiencing visual images of Cosmic Travel. As suggested by my intuition I have recorded about 300 images with corresponding verses taken from the THIRUMANTHRAM of THIRUMOOLAR. Here I am giving some images. I have discussed with my co-meditators about this. But most of them revealed that they have not been experienced such thing. I do not know Whether Iam going to right direction or not. pl. see my photos and offer your opinion http://photos.yahoo.com/cosmic_travel see also my web page http://travel.vsnl.com/meditation/index.html pl. visit www.geocities.com/siva_sivam2001/meditation/1.html My Email Id: m_namasivayam@vsnl.net *************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From nama_sivam@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 16:50:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 00:50:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 21577 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 00:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 00:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web12907.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 00:50:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20021112005052.49285.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.199.232.233] by web12907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:50:52 PST Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: newmember To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: nama siva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=128033841 X-Yahoo-Profile: nama_sivam iam in chennai, India. Happy to join this group. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 16:58:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 79967 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:58:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2312 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Hell, all one needs to do to understand the Ageless Wisdom is to be able to count to six! Now you do the math. As 3 and 4 come before 5 and 6, then the 'inferior' races would have to be way older than the 'superior' races. Right? Right. And with that comes a round of greater karmas. IMO The earlier races are somehow suppressed NOW so that the newer, younger races might flourish. That is also the meaning of beauty. Beauty is in the eyes of the young....The only problem with suppression, even if temporary, that during that state of sleeping giant nap, the giant killers come out and do genocide on the race while it is sleeping. Thus the wheel grinds on....... Netemara PS: I think the superior part comes in that new models are always improved upon in some way. In that sense only can we apply the term superior to the Aryan race. What comes after has the benefit of what has gone before. It is hindsight is 20/20 sort of thing, nothing inherent at all about it. That noninherited, just happened on the scene already perfect and advanced is pie in the sky. It just did not happen. We are all connected in that sense, dependent on the progress of each other in order to progress ourselves. The masters and adepts of Atlantis did those feats not just for themselves but for posterity, what was left of it. *************** -- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? > (Would that > > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > > No, but I think you have identified a new form of political > incorrectness: FRANK-ISM. > > Right or wrong, good or bad, the fact is that Blavatsky's nineteenth > century ideas about superior (white) and inferior (non-white) races > have not aged well over the past 125 years. I think we can agree on > that whether we take the modern or the nineteenth century side of the > argument. > > If the theosophical theory is correct, it is not the "inferior" races > which are younger, but the "superior" races. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 17:04:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 01:04:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 91098 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 01:04:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 01:04:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 01:04:43 -0000 Received: from pool0317.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.62] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BPS0-0007fA-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:02:44 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: NOVEMBER 17TH 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:58:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 ANNIVERSARY November 17th 2002 THE PAST AND THE PRESENT FORESHADOW THE FUTURE Our present centennial as the new cycle, will represent for many a promise, a hope for the future of our Earth and ourselves, and also, that the errors of the past will not repeat themselves. In 1878 the earliest record of the objects of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT was made in a circular titled "THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY [Its Origin, Plan and Aims]" Col. Olcott, the President-Founder said that H P B had written this section of the circular: " The objects of the Society are various. It influences its fellows to acquire an intimate knowledge of natural law, especially its occult manifestations. As the highest development, physically and spiritually, on earth, of the Creative Cause, man should aim to solve the mystery of his being...study to develop his latent powers...to personally exemplify the highest morality and religious aspiration, to oppose the materialism of science, and every form of dogmatic theology, especially the Christian...to make known among Western nations the long-suppressed facts about Oriental religious philosophies, their ethics, chronology, esotericism, symbolism...to disseminate a knowledge of the sublime teachings of that pure esoteric system of the archaic period, which are mirrored in the oldest Vedas, and in the philosophy of Gautama Buddha, Zoroaster and Confucius; finally and chiefly, to aid in the institution of a Brotherhood of Humanity, wherein all good and pure men, of every race, shall recognize each other as the equal effects (upon this planet) of one Uncreate, Universal, Infinite, and Everlasting Cause." [Blavatsky: COLLECTED WORKS (T P H ), Vol. !, pp. 375-8] The character of the present and coming cycle is twofold: the striving of the spiritual aspirations of the age, and, the Karmic -- of being haunted by the errors of our past, and thus the possibility of repeating our habitual patterns of thought. History indicates that we are inclined to repeat our destructive tendencies. In an effort to counter these mental patterns, students of Theosophy attempt to apply the direction given by H.P.B. in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY ( p. 228): "...the main, fundamental object ... is to sow germs in the hearts of men, which may in time sprout, and under more propitious circumstances lead to a healthy reform, conducive of more happiness to the masses than they have hitherto enjoyed. " We do know that individually, any one can bring these propitious circumstances into focus for themselves. Additionally we know that spreading the ideals of Theosophy is the process for sowing seed ideas. These relate to the nature of man's Spirit/Soul immortality, and that one essential fact, removes the dread of death, and gives a practical philosophical basis, by which to apply, the ideas of karma (the Law of the Universe and of ourselves) and reincarnation in an intelligent manner. These ideas we share again with each other, as brothers and sisters do, jointly adventuring on the great Path to Sublime Perfection that all, as Eternal Pilgrims, follow. So did H P B envisage the impact that Theosophy would have on the dedicated, the studious and the thoughtful, that she wrote in her fourth message to the American Theosophists assembled in 1891 in the Boston Convention: "Theosophy first, and Theosophy last: for its practical realization alone can save the Western world ... from sinking entirely into that mere luxurious materialism in which it will decay and putrefy as civilizations have done. In yours hands, brothers, is placed in trust the welfare of the coming century ... " "It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T A & N. p. 189.] And we find Mr. Judge saying elsewhere: "High scholarship and a knowledge of metaphysics are good things to have, but the mass of the people are neither scholars nor metaphysicians. If our doctrines are of any such use as to command the efforts of Sages in helping on to their promulgation, then it must be that those Sages - our Masters - desire the doctrines to be placed before as many of the mass as we can reach." There is no substitute for enthusiasm. In this effort, Mr. Judge exemplified this in everything he did. Once one recognizes the value of theosophical Ideas as they affect every level of human life - physical, mental, moral and spiritual - enthusiasm to share with others is spontaneous, as shown by the ongoing efforts of students to publish and study the original writings of H. P. Blavatsky and William Q. Judge. This is the work of today as opportunities present themselves. In spite of the clangor and din of our present civilization, we live in a time when it is possible to openly proclaim the existence of Theosophy - the Wisdom-Religion. This has not always been the case, as history shows. We need not be reticent in publicly stating Theosophical ideas, as they throw light on the problems and issues facing the human family - birth, death and dying, education, famine, human rights, justice, religious freedom, social conflict and war. H.P.B. provided the key to transforming the "mind of the race" in our era when she said "Learn well the doctrines of Karma and Reincarnation ... " ================ What, may we ask, is the significance of the annual anniversary marked by November 17th ? In The Secret Doctrine, Vol II, p. 179, Mme. Blavatsky refers to certain dates which She calls the "birthdays of the Dhyanis." The T S was inaugurated on one of these: November 17th in 1875. Several days in each year mark the cyclic return of the impressions of the day on which, far, far back, early beginnings were made in this Manvantara. The 17th of November, midnight between the 18th and 19th of February, and the 7th day of March are three of these she called the "birthdays" of the Dhyanis. And, in this connection, we may recall a verse in The Voice of the Silence, p. 72, "Know if Amitabha, the "Boundless Age," thou would'st become co-worker, then must thou shed the light acquired, like to the Bodhisattvas twain, upon the span of all three worlds." Does this statement give a clue as to why the three "birthdays" are referred to: these may be those of "Amitabha," and the two "Bodhisattvas." It is said that two of the Masters saw that it was possible to make an effort to re-establish the Theosophical Movement in the world. We are indebted to them and to HPB who agreed to act as their "Messenger." They also refer to their superior, the Maha-Chohan before whom they stand in awe and to whose wishes they accede. Before him, they say in one place, the "book of Karma" stands open. The Dhyanis, the Wise, the "Great Souls," are the Rishis, the Buddhas and the Mahatmas of antiquity, and of the present. Being immortals They cannot have a "birthday" in the ordinary sense, since it is posited that all beings, in their essence, and we, ourselves, as immortals, are faced with the same quandary. Do we have a birthday? The answer is both "yes," and "no." "Yes," for this period of manifestation on our Earth. "No," for the "Eternal Pilgrim" that we are essentially. (SD I 175 268, and 570-575; II 79-80 93-4 103 109-10 167.) It could be surmised that the "Ray of the One Spirit" which is the human MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) would have its special "birthday" in the sequence of Cosmic development in the dim and formative past of the earlier Rounds. May we all draw inspiration and prosper from these remembrances. May we each continue the Work. November 17th 2002, will mark the 127th anniversary of the launching of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT for our present times and era. ===================== DTB From rpouncy@attbi.com Mon Nov 11 18:36:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rpouncy@attbi.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 02:36:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 94294 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 02:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 02:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc01.attbi.com) (204.127.202.61) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 02:36:46 -0000 Received: from movies ([24.130.126.133]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021112023643.SNBA2683.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@movies> for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:36:43 +0000 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World ANSWERS TO QUESTONS -- Chapter 3 -- THE EARTH CHAIN -- 7 Principles and "Gloges"-- in the "OCEAN" Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:31:59 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Richard Pouncy" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=108372510 X-Yahoo-Profile: rpouncy99 Thank you Dallas for the wonderful answer to my question. It was direct and to the point. Richard Pouncy From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 11 19:16:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 03:16:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 7277 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 03:16:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 03:16:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 03:16:02 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-26.look.ca ([216.154.45.73] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18BRWh-0001CI-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:15:43 -0500 Message-ID: <3DD07292.BA0725D1@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:16:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Leon/Gerald . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.1 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Quoting from Dallas's post: <<"It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T A & N. p. 189.]>> "Popularize" in that context brought to mind Leon's models, among other things. That is, I tend to agree with Leon that, by scientizing certain aspects of Theosophy, (by using a popular language of the age), one might reach those for whom other kinds of introductions to Theosophic issues might be far less applealing. On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: ((((Mauri, I shouldn't say anything in response to Leon, who is not even here to defend himself. But I feel the need to at least say the following: <<>> My response to this question is: Science stands for intellectual knowledge Religion stands for faith Philosophy stands for experiential knowledge All three are necessary lest Theosophy "be nothing more than another religious dogma destined to die on the vine?" Emphasizing intellectual knowledge alone will kill Theosophy in only a few generations. It is already doing so, and Theosophy is today in its last gasp because of its over-emphasis on intellectualism. The "head doctrine" is intellectual knowledge, the "heart doctrine" is experiential knowledge and the one will get us nowhere without the other. >>>))))))) -------------- Leon wrote: <> As I see it, there would seem not to be any solution, or "more realistic approach to Theosophy," that by-passes anything that's relevant to a broader and lasting understanding of Theosophy. In other words (?), regardless of whichever doctrine or approach one might be inclined to follow, if that approach is not wisely enough balanced with aspects of intellect, faith, and experience, the result might not be particularly representative of "Theosophic progress" . . . I'm making a "general comment," here, and not accusing anybody of not being wise enough. We all seem to be "wise enough" in our various "own ways," basically, often times, but/"but" . . . Speculatively, Mauri From rpouncy@attbi.com Mon Nov 11 20:24:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rpouncy@attbi.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 04:24:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 39417 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 04:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 04:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc02.attbi.com) (204.127.202.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 04:24:41 -0000 Received: from movies ([24.130.126.133]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021112042438.RGT21905.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@movies> for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 04:24:38 +0000 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Australia's karma Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:19:54 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3DB89D9D.41E96DBA@sprynet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Richard Pouncy" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=108372510 X-Yahoo-Profile: rpouncy99 -----Original Message----- From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@sprynet.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:26 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma If you are referring to Israel as the oppressor, and the Palestinians as the oppressed, learn some history. The Palestinians were trying to destroy Israel. They made war against Israel. They lost. That's how Israel ended up with the West Bank. And the Palestinians STILL have the primary goal of the destruction of the State of Israel. Would anyone know the root cause of the hatred of the Palestinians towards Israel? I have numerous stories in the media, but what is the Palestinians' version of the truth? Thank you. Admittedly, the Palestinians, when the State of Israel was created, didn't oppress the Jews who were living among them. They just killed them and seized their land. So, tell me, please tell me what actions Israel should do that will not guarantee Israel's destruction? Bart Lidofsky Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From netemara888@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 00:56:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 08:56:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 80407 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 08:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 08:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 08:56:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 08:56:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:56:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2113 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Richard Pouncy" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@s...] > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:26 AM > To: theos-talk@y... > Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma > > If you are referring to Israel as the oppressor, and the > Palestinians > as the oppressed, learn some history. The Palestinians were trying to > destroy Israel. They made war against Israel. They lost. That's how > Israel ended up with the West Bank. And the Palestinians STILL have the > primary goal of the destruction of the State of Israel. > Would anyone know the root cause of the hatred of the Palestinians towards > Israel? I have numerous stories in the media, but what is the Palestinians' > version of the truth? > > Thank you. > > ************* There is nothing in the media that you can believe about anything, let alone about Israel. If you want to know more about it look at the involvement of England who are judophiles. I have posted some excerpts re the founding of Israel from Johnson's book "History of the Jews" which is one of the best on the subject, but not the only one. The founding of the Zionist state of Israel was a true (rich) gentleman's agreement, including the Protocol of Zion. This is one of the most interesting stories in history, but it is not taught in general history classes, I would bet money on that. Johnson said that the only reason that the Palestinians were defeated when this initially went over was due to their lack of military organization at the time. Israel caught them by surprise so to speak. And the rest is history as they say. Netemara *************** > > Admittedly, the Palestinians, when the State of Israel was created, > didn't oppress the Jews who were living among them. They just killed > them and seized their land. > > So, tell me, please tell me what actions Israel should do that will > not > guarantee Israel's destruction? > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 01:16:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 09:16:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15310 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 09:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 09:16:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 09:16:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 09:16:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:16:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2500 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Reg."The founding of the Zionist state of Israel was a true (rich) gentleman's agreement, including the Protocol of Zion." Brian: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/theprotoc.html --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Richard Pouncy" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@s...] > > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:26 AM > > To: theos-talk@y... > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Australia's karma > > > > If you are referring to Israel as the oppressor, and the > > Palestinians > > as the oppressed, learn some history. The Palestinians were trying > to > > destroy Israel. They made war against Israel. They lost. That's how > > Israel ended up with the West Bank. And the Palestinians STILL have > the > > primary goal of the destruction of the State of Israel. > > Would anyone know the root cause of the hatred of the Palestinians > towards > > Israel? I have numerous stories in the media, but what is the > Palestinians' > > version of the truth? > > > > Thank you. > > > > ************* > > There is nothing in the media that you can believe about anything, > let alone about Israel. If you want to know more about it look at the > involvement of England who are judophiles. > > I have posted some excerpts re the founding of Israel from Johnson's > book "History of the Jews" which is one of the best on the subject, > but not the only one. The founding of the Zionist state of Israel was > a true (rich) gentleman's agreement, including the Protocol of Zion. > This is one of the most interesting stories in history, but it is not > taught in general history classes, I would bet money on that. > > Johnson said that the only reason that the Palestinians were defeated > when this initially went over was due to their lack of military > organization at the time. Israel caught them by surprise so to speak. > And the rest is history as they say. > > Netemara > > *************** > > > > Admittedly, the Palestinians, when the State of Israel was > created, > > didn't oppress the Jews who were living among them. They just killed > > them and seized their land. > > > > So, tell me, please tell me what actions Israel should do > that will > > not > > guarantee Israel's destruction? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 12 02:14:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 10:14:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 12934 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 10:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 10:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 10:14:53 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.163.16ef2897 (3310) for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:14:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <163.16ef2897.2b022e97@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:14:47 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/11/02 10:29:51 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >The models of reality that were passed on to us by HPB >and the Mahatmas are, (IMHSO), something that, even >without much in the way of innate/direct understanding >about them, I tend to find interesting. Apparently >Gerald, on the other hand, having had more >direct/experiential/"esoteric" knowledge of such models, >finds them more meaningful than I can. Not having had >such direct experiences, myself, I feel that I ought to not >"state facts based on what I have read," but should, >instead, try to read between the lines, as suggested by >HPB. And so, not having had direct enough experiences >of such models, I feel that my options, realistically >speaking, in terms of comment making, are limited to >speculation, for better or worse. The first step (for want of a stronger motivation) is to find the teachings "interesting." However, if you did manage to correctly read between the lines -- which means using your intuition (which is a "direct experience") you would have no need to speculate. All speculations can do is confuse both the speculator and the ones he tells them to. And if such speculation leads to an answer such as, yes, it is correct, or no it isn't correct, since this is what the real meaning of what you are talking about is, etc. . . . All you would get is someone "telling it to you" -- which you still couldn't experience -- and would thus remain perpetually ignorant, while drowning in unresolved speculations and wrong views. (And, even, if by chance you had a right view, you would never know it.^:-( The "facts" stated with reference to my scientific theory of ABC, that is consistent with theosophical metaphysics (as studied carefully "between the lines and in the words" of the commentaries in the SD) -- is based on a direct meditative and intuitive experience of "being" the zero (laya) point and "feeling" the flow of the cyclic energies, along with their contained "images" that emanate and reflect from and to this center of my consciousness and will -- which is also in direct coadunation with the consciousness and will of the universal source, or "Beness" existing eternally in and as the Absolute "Abstract" Space, Time, Form, and Motion hidden in the zero-point-instant "singularity. (In spite of what Gerald or anyone else "tells you" -- this is the only way to truly understand the nature of your higher monadic Self -- which is forever at-one-ment with the triple natured Universal SELF.) One must be OM TAT SAT before one can "realize" or "experience" that one is what one is (or, as Popeye said it clearly, "I yam wot I yam cuz I yam wot I yam..." . (symbol of a bearded man who knows it all, and keeps it under his hat.) Remember, we have all been there before... So, there must be a deep seated memory in the subtlest akashic level of our mind of the path we took going out that we can retrace... That is, if we can get all the contradictory words and their associated images and conceptions out of our head, and think about it with an entirely clear and placid mind. That's what "real" meditation is all about. Patanjali has pointed out that way pretty thoroughly -- which leads one directly to a conscious awareness of the ultimate division of time, and the "knowing" that Infinite duration = the infinitesimal moment of creation-growth-decline-destruction. Incidentally, since all this occurs in the ever existent and present NOW, there is no difference between past present and future, and ten years of meditation can be compressed into an instant. Thus, "enlightenment," or pure Zen, Dyana, Chan, Dzyan, or whatever you call it, can come whenever you can stop speculating about it and just "grab it by the horns," so to speak. That certainly beats meditating on mantras, mudras, mandalas, and mental images of anthropomorphized demigods posing as natural forces, or constant speculating on vague, conflicting and contradictory ideas that leads to more and more confusion, and further away from the culture of consciousness, or attainment of self realization and divine wisdom. For me, this experience came about often (with every insight) during almost fifteen years of concentrated study and meditation "between the lines and in the words" of the SD (and every other book on occultism I could get my hands on) -- without asking anybody "what does it mean" or "speculating" or second guessing about it... Although, I discussed it with others, and listened to what they said for about five years (and then gave that up). (As Einstein said, "Genius is concentrating, alone, on a single point of inquiry for a long period of time.) I also filled the margins of two copies of the SD with hundreds, if not thousands of comments, restatements, questions, geometric pictures and numerological charts. Too, bad I didn't remember (in this lifetime:-) hearing the Buddha when he said, "enlightenment can come in seven lifetimes, seven years, seven days, or seven moments." (But, then, during those 15 years, I was working full time on dozens of projects and could only read about one paragraph a day. :-) What I found is that whenever one reads anything profound, or outside our own experience (even if only one sentence), we need only to focus on it, visualize its images, and meditate on, in, around, and between the words until an insight comes -- out of the blue, so to speak. (Sometimes, it takes a whole day and night.) Then, one has to question that insight using reason and logic. If the shoe fits, wear it... And, then walk on to the next profound idea. (It sometimes helps to read out loud what anyone has to say about any idea or truth. Tell it to yourself, so to speak. This method can sometimes lead to an instant clarification as to the truth or falsehood of what one is studying.) Theosophical study is a series of plateaus, each of which you might think is the final answer -- until you reach the next plateau. But, one must do it alone. No one can come with you on your personal search for truth and enlightenment. And it does no one any service to hear about another's insights -- since we are all on different plateaus, each on our own individual path. But, then, it wasn't enlightenment I was after this time around. It was practical occult knowledge that would help me to be better able to help and teach others. However, it took another ten years to also study the modern science and geometry I needed to come up with the final correlation's of ABC with the theosophical metaphysics. All told, between my education in science, fine art, architecture, engineering, occultism, alchemy, etc., and both technical and cutting edge creative experience in the fine, textile, graphic and entertainment arts, a total of almost 70 years of concentrated study and efforts lies behind my "scientizing" (I call it "generalizing" or "simplifying," in "the language of THIS age) the theosophical truths -- so that, hopefully, anyone with a reasonable IQ, and any level of experience or knowledge, can understand it... And, thus, accept the possibility of reincarnation and karma along with universal brotherhood, as fundamental laws of nature... And, with that out of the way, go about changing their minds about their own personal lives and their responsibilities for the lives and well being of everyone else on this mad planet. Thus, through this meditating "in the words and between the lines" (of everything I studied) I found out for myself what it feels like to be both the creator and the receptor, the observer and the doer. The whole trick is to put that "experience" into words that other people without such insight, can understand and, perhaps, by meditating on (any true occult teaching, or the zero-point itself) -- gain the intuitive insights, and experience the "reality" of pure existence and non existence for themselves. But then, as WQJ said in his instructions to one of his students, "Make sure to temper your intuition with your reason." (All the parts of the puzzle have to fit together as one, unbounded whole.) When that has been accomplished successfully, one is capable of stating such an intuition as a "fact." That's why any enlightened student/teacher can speak so confidently about the "facts of theosophy." Since, in essence, both the teachings and the teachers speak for themselves. It's also a fact that the teacher usually learns more about what he is teaching than his students do. This method is much more sound and conducive to finding truth within oneself, than listening to and accepting on "faith" or "authority" the "interpretations" given out by rote, based on written and verbal teachings of so called "Gurus" (that I hear from most of the "interpreters" of the Buddha's, and even of the theosophical Master's or HPB's teachings). Remember, what's written and said can only be exoteric. The esotericism is what is implied, practiced, and intuitively experienced in the quietness of "your own secret place." The ultimate goal of all meditation is finding, and listening to the Master within who can answer all your unspoken questions. Thus, one can end all speculation and loose talk about what is and what is not. After that, all that any one of us who know can do, is offer a few guideposts along the winding ways. As a matter of necessity, my guideposts are scientific and technological -- for those of such a bent of mind who believe fervently in the "scientific Method," their own intellects, and in the scientists who are their trusted gurus. These people, who are the majority today, laugh at the Buddhists, Vedantists and Theosophists, and the weird and indecipherable languages they use... But, they don't laugh at me or my theories, given to them in straight English without reference to theosophy or any other religious concept. And, all real theosophists, whether they are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Hebrews, Christians, Taoists, or Atheists, all, also, know exactly what I mean when I say that the universe, which includes both its matter and our consciousness in eternity, must obey fundamental and immutable scientific laws of causality based on cycles and periodicity, starting from zero and extending to infinity in both space and time. Best wishes, LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 12 02:42:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 10:42:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 56519 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 10:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 10:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 10:42:12 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.108.1ad30b0f (3310) for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:42:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <108.1ad30b0f.2b023500@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:42:08 EST Subject: The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Friends, For further information regarding the confirmations of theosophy by current science, check out the web site of Peter Mutnick -- containing interesting (if not conclusive) dialogues with prominent quantum physicists -- from which the following commentary is an excerpt referring to the Secret Doctrine. Incidentally, these dialogues were either posted to the Quantum Mind online forum sponsored by the University of Arizona consciousness studies department (headed and moderated by Stuart Hameroff) -- or, possibly, on the off-line unmoderated discussion group set up by one of the members of QM online, in which Dr. Mutnick and I also participated, along with about thirty other internationally known scientists and philosophers, including some Nobel prizewinners and one or two interested metaphysicians without academic [Ph.D.] credentials (like myself :-) However, the arguments between the quantum physicists still go on, since they haven't yet correlated their ideas with those of the Superstring/M-brane theorists -- who have mathematically determined the existence of a 10 dimensional (multi-space) universe -- or with my theory of ABC, that brings consciousness and thought down to analogue field informational processes that have nothing to do with quantum effects (except those related to the mechanisms of the brain, body, and the mass/energy particles that compose them)... The difference being that most quantum physicists think of the "images" of thought, memory, sensory and extra sensory perception, as being finitely "particulate" in nature and subject to quantum laws -- while ABC sees them as being composed of infinite degrees of interference wave patterns of a holographic nature -- that are transferred holistically between consciousness (mind, memory, experiential, etc.) fields by purely electrical (harmonics, inductiion, resonance, etc.) processes. (Of course, the non informational phenomena within each of these fields could be governed by quantum particle/wave laws -- but the constants and energy relationships of such laws would be entirely different on each transcendental plane of consciousness.) Thus, the inner "astral light" that we see with our mind's eye, could be traveling at a velocity much faster than the speed (c) of sidereal light that actually falls on the retinas of our eyes (there to be translated chemically and electrically until its vibrational patterns are transferred holistically to the brain's em field, and thence, as holographic, interference patterned modulations, to our mind/memory fields). When the currently mixed bag of scientists working in the various disciplines of the hard and soft sciences finally recognize these possibilities, join their physics, biologics, and psychology's with the "metaphysics" of Supertring/M-brane and ABC theories -- all the current "hard problems" of consciousness (explaining experience, brain-mind binding, psi phenomena, will, etc.) will be answered... And, theosophy will finally be "proven" by science. How long this will take is anybody's guess -- but, though not all of them know it, they are getting very very close. LHM P.S. I added a comment with reference to FOHAT to the dialogue below between Mutnick and HPB. (Note that I introduced the SD to all these consciousness science forums as early as 1994 when they first started up. Before then, prior to the philosopher, David Chalmers, posing the "hard problem" -- explaining the experience or "qualia" of consciousness -- the study of consciousness was anathema in most "hard science" circles.) --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Mutnick (http://www.geocities.com/saint7peter/index.html) The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity Note: I explain below the relevance of this passage, written in 1888, to quantum theory and the philosophy of complementarity. The URL given immediately below is the testimony of one Leon Maurer concerning Einstein's interest in "The Secret Doctrine". http://users.aol.com/unIwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html LeonMaurer@aol.com [Helena Blavatsky] The Secret Doctrine establishes three fundamental propositions: - (a) An omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought - in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable". [Peter Mutnick] If the source of the complementary pairs of opposites is not this type of plenitude, then the alternative is a cheap defective universe. This is the impression that many have of complementarity and the Copenhagen Interpretation, but it is a misconception on their part from the outset. [Blavatsky] To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause - dimly formulated in the "Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy - is the rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be". It is of course devoid of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, *Sat*), and is beyond all thought or speculation. [Mutnick] The penetration of the Unconscious leads to the implicate order as the true Mind of the Observer. The Unknowable is the foundation for the implicate order as the noumenal back-ground. The Infinite and Eternal Cause = the God of Spinoza = the Implicate Order of Bohm. [Blavatsky] This "Be-ness" is symbolized in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. On the one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, the one thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, or conceive of by itself. On the other hand, absolute Abstract Motion representing Unconditioned Consciousness. [Mutnick] The primary pair of conjugate variables are enunciated in 1888! Moreover a possibly profound meaning is given to them. [Blavatsky] Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable to us apart from change, and motion best symbolizes change, its essential characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality is also symbolized by the term "The Great Breath", a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE - BE-NESS - symbolized by finite intelligence as the theological Trinity. It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are given here. Herbert Spencer has of late so modified his Agnosticism as to assert that the nature of the "First Cause", which the Occultists more logically derives from the "Causeless Cause", the "Eternal", and the "Unknowable", may be essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up within us; in short, that the impersonal reality pervading the Kosmos is the noumenon of thought. This advance on his part brings him very near to the esoteric and Vedantin tenet. Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But once we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, Subject and Object. [Mutnick] This Absolute Consciousness is the same discovered by Edmund Husserl through the phenomenological reduction. It is discovered by everyone who turns their attention inward and asks in sincerity, "Who and What am I?" But this cannot be done casually or even necessarily through an act of will. Husserl said only that one should perform the phenomenological reduction at least once during one's lifetime. It is a peak experience and the experience of a lifetime. Zen adepts often had two experiences: one an initial Kensho; and later a complete Enlightenment. [Blavatsky] Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not as independent realities, but as two facets or aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether subjective or objective. Considering this metaphysical triad as the Root from which proceeds all manifestation, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. I is the *fons et origo* of force and of all individual consciousness, and supplies the guiding intelligence in the vast scheme of cosmic Evolution. On the other hand, precosmic root-substance (*Mulaprakriti*) is that aspect of the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades of its differentiation. [Mutnick] Substance and Ideation have to do with the State Vector and its Reduction. [Blavatsky] Hence it will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe". Apart from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle of matter that consciousness wells up as "I am I", a physical basis being necessary to focus a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain level of complexity. Again, apart from the Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty abstraction, and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. [Mutnick] Clearly applicable to the State Vector and its Reduction. [Blavatsky] The "Manifested Universe", therefore, is pervaded by duality, which is, as it were, the very essence of its EX-istence as "manifestation". [Mutnick] EX-istence = explicate order. [Blavatsky] But just as the opposite poles of subject and object, spirit and matter, are but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized, so, in the manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject to object. This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by the occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the "Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature". Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from the other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through the Dhyan Chohans, the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualized and attains to self - or reflective - consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle electrifying every atom into life. [Niels Bohr] "Actually, ordinary language by its use of such words as thoughts and sentiments, admits typical complementary relations between conscious experiences implying a different placing of the section line between the observing subject and object on which attention is focussed. We are here presented with a close analogy to the relationship between atomic phenomena appearing under different experimental conditions and described by different physical concepts, according to the role played by the measuring instruments. In fact, the varying separation line between subject and object, characteristic of different conscious experiences, is the clue to the consistent logical use of such contrasting notions as will, conscience and aspirations, each referring to equally important aspects of human personality." (Niels Bohr, "Physical Science and the Study of Religions", 1953, in TPWNB, Volume IV, pp. 159-60) [Mutnick] Fohat as the mediator of subject and object is more than the "aspects of the human personality" which are products of varying placements of the split. Fohat actually synthesizes the opposites (complementary pairs) in a way that is not yet understood. THIS IS A PRIMARY KEY TO THE SCIENCE OF THE 21ST CENTURY! IT EXPLAINS THE DYNAMIC ACTION OF WILL IN A UNIVERSALLY CREATIVE SENSE. [Maurer] Too bad that Mutnick, while he sees the quantum correlation's with the fundamental principles, can't see that, since Fohat manifests as the primary field of electrical energy in its threefold aspects, that the link between the opposites (fullness-emptiness, sleeping-waking, light-dark, etc.), as well as the idea of "complementarity" depends solely on cyclic laws, and is mediated by holographic field interference patterns overlaid on and carried by the fundamental frequencies of the primal mind and memory fields... Linked to each other by their coadunate zero-point centers of universal awareness and will. Thus, like the DNA in any body cell can build the entire body structure, the universe contains all of itself in any zero-point instant "spinergy" spread everywhere throughout all of Space, both Absolute (abstract) and Metric (phenomenal). [Blavatsky] The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. (1) The ABSOLUTE; the *Parabrahm* of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. (2) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, *unmanifested* Logos, the precursor of the "manifested". This is the "First Cause", the "Unconscious" of European pantheists. (3) Spirit-Matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe", Purusha and Prakriti, or the *second* Logos. (4) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World-Soul; the Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. The ONE REALITY; its *dual* aspects in the conditioned Universe. Further, the Secret Doctrine affirms: - (b) The Eternity of the Universe *in toto* as a boundless plane; periodically "the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and disappearing", called "the manifesting stars", and the "sparks of Eternity". "The Eternity of the Pilgrim"* is like a wink of the Eye of Self-Existence. *"Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our "Monad" (the two in one) during its cycle of incarnation. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in us, being an indivisible part of the integral whole - the Universal Spirit, from which it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the cycle. When it is said to emanate from the one spirit, an awkward and incorrect expression has to be used, for lack of appropriate words in English. The Vedantins call it Sutratma (Thread-Soul), but their explanation, too, differs somewhat from that of the occultists; to explain which difference, however, is left to the Vedantins themselves. From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 03:58:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 11:58:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 73209 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 11:58:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 11:58:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 11:58:04 -0000 Received: from pool0069.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.69] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BZgB-0006Tb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 03:58:04 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World newmember Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 03:54:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20021112005052.49285.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Welcome to our group. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: nama siva [mailto:nama_sivam@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:51 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World new member i am in Chennai, India. Happy to join this group. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 06:52:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 14:52:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 89509 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 14:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 14:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 14:52:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 14:52:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:52:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Daniel C.Caldwell's Precipitation a big Con. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1280 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Brian: Count Witte Blavatsky's relative wrote Blavatsky used to run an ink and paper store. And J. Godwin who wrote the famous book "The Theosophical Enlightenment" at one time produced his own "Mahatma Letters" by simple writing on colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a book with the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect, and sending to his friends like among others K. Paul Johnson. This is among others hinted at in the interview with K. Paul Johnson on this web site. K. Paul Johnson in fact flew personally to London to look at the letters in the British Museum (with Leslie Price) and stated the J. Godwin demonstration looked the same. Editor: Could the unknown factor described by Harrison, and by some interpreted as "precipitation," not easily be produced by writing with a colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a book with the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect? K.Paul Johnson: Yes, another writer on Blavatsky once demonstrated this for me and it does produce the same kind of effect as seen in some of the Mahatma letters. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 07:24:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 15:24:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 6462 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 15:24:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 15:24:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 15:24:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 15:24:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:24:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A question about the text in ALL CAPS, and the still Fraudulant Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2099 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Theosophical Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell: "who wrote the text ALL IN CAPS at the beginning of this posting?: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8477 Brian : I mentioned three times on this list that the letter was send to me by someone who was reading the postings on theos talk and writing me privately about it. I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the identity. This was not difficult to do since I agree on almost all counts whit what Bhakti Ananda wrote to me, in fact already 3 years ago during my private correspondence with a Theosophist I respect, Steve Stubbs I kept repeating the same question: "where is the information in the texts themselves that show they are authentic, and are what they claim to be ?" But just like Leon Maurer who ofcourse claimed the messages from Bhakti Anada Goswhami where a fake , he in turn couldn't answer any of the issues Bhakti Anada Goswhami brought up and now as a revenge is posting fake claims about Einstein and a non-existing web site. Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be capable to address ANY of the genuine issuis brought up by BAG. Meaning one must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since BAG has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of his letters On-line: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html And pulling the all together in a few words one maybe can say: Does it ring a bell? Let us think: Philosophy (of the ancient Upanishats, Greeks). Theology (of medieval Church). Theosophy (of the 19th century). It is chemistry time! Philosophy + Theology = Theosophy + ? Guess what! Philology .. of the 21st century!! Any other takers ? Brian From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 12 12:57:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 20:57:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 96567 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 20:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 20:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 20:57:23 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.36.313bb00b (4529) for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:57:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36.313bb00b.2b02c527@cs.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:57:11 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Leon, Thanks for this post, I enjoyed reading it as well as your recent recounting of your lives endeavor, both worthy of the time and both rewarding in the experience. John From netemara888@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 14:29:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 1421 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 22:29:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2002 22:29:00 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:29:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <108.1ad30b0f.2b023500@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 17547 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Thanks for the info Leon. I was supposed to be on a similar forum that was formed after a group of physicists and teachers spent some time on physics' projects "quarknet" at Notre Dame this summer. On my wall in this room I have a picture of "The Standard Model" which is based on the 8, the noble path of the Buddha. I have had discussions with physicists who work in conjunction with the accelarator at Fermi Labs which I visited for the first time this summer. I am hoping to go to CERN and spend some time there in Geneva and Europe. But that's funny you posit HPB's words/work with these physicists and now I am talking to some of these same guys in person. The group I worked with here was involved in that huge find where about 100 physicists are on the cover of TIME and there was some catchy title about how many physicists does it take to discover something. I forgot it, but I wrote a great deal about them in my manuscript. No one understands what I am doing except those who are both sides of the fence. My favorite T has the Feynmann diagram on it. I love physics. It is so spiritual. I have been following the progress of the GUT also for the last 30 years. I used to go to lectures by nobel physicists at the U. of Chicago and I understood every word of it, before I ever took a physics course. That's why I know there is a connection between meditation, the experiences of meditation and the holy grail of final particles. Which may be never ending. But if I get any emails regarding progress of the Higgs I will send them along, and if you get any please share them. What is the forum list? Netemara *************** --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Friends, > > For further information regarding the confirmations of theosophy by current > science, check out the web site of Peter Mutnick -- containing interesting > (if not conclusive) dialogues with prominent quantum physicists -- from which > the following commentary is an excerpt referring to the Secret Doctrine. > > Incidentally, these dialogues were either posted to the Quantum Mind online > forum sponsored by the University of Arizona consciousness studies department > (headed and moderated by Stuart Hameroff) -- or, possibly, on the off-line > unmoderated discussion group set up by one of the members of QM online, in > which Dr. Mutnick and I also participated, along with about thirty other > internationally known scientists and philosophers, including some Nobel > prizewinners and one or two interested metaphysicians without academic > [Ph.D.] credentials (like myself :-) > > However, the arguments between the quantum physicists still go on, since they > haven't yet correlated their ideas with those of the Superstring/M- brane > theorists -- who have mathematically determined the existence of a 10 > dimensional (multi-space) universe -- or with my theory of ABC, that brings > consciousness and thought down to analogue field informational processes that > have nothing to do with quantum effects (except those related to the > mechanisms of the brain, body, and the mass/energy particles that compose > them)... > > The difference being that most quantum physicists think of the "images" of > thought, memory, sensory and extra sensory perception, as being finitely > "particulate" in nature and subject to quantum laws -- while ABC sees them as > being composed of infinite degrees of interference wave patterns of a > holographic nature -- that are transferred holistically between consciousness > (mind, memory, experiential, etc.) fields by purely electrical (harmonics, > inductiion, resonance, etc.) processes. (Of course, the non informational > phenomena within each of these fields could be governed by quantum > particle/wave laws -- but the constants and energy relationships of such laws > would be entirely different on each transcendental plane of consciousness.) > > Thus, the inner "astral light" that we see with our mind's eye, could be > traveling at a velocity much faster than the speed (c) of sidereal light that > actually falls on the retinas of our eyes (there to be translated chemically > and electrically until its vibrational patterns are transferred holistically > to the brain's em field, and thence, as holographic, interference patterned > modulations, to our mind/memory fields). > > When the currently mixed bag of scientists working in the various disciplines > of the hard and soft sciences finally recognize these possibilities, join > their physics, biologics, and psychology's with the "metaphysics" of > Supertring/M-brane and ABC theories -- all the current "hard problems" of > consciousness (explaining experience, brain-mind binding, psi phenomena, > will, etc.) will be answered... And, theosophy will finally be "proven" by > science. How long this will take is anybody's guess -- but, though not all > of them know it, they are getting very very close. > > LHM > > P.S. I added a comment with reference to FOHAT to the dialogue below between > Mutnick and HPB. (Note that I introduced the SD to all these consciousness > science forums as early as 1994 when they first started up. Before then, > prior to the philosopher, David Chalmers, posing the "hard problem" -- > explaining the experience or "qualia" of consciousness -- the study of > consciousness was anathema in most "hard science" circles.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Peter Mutnick (http://www.geocities.com/saint7peter/index.html) > > The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity > > Note: I explain below the relevance of this passage, written in 1888, to > quantum theory and the philosophy of complementarity. The URL given > immediately below is the testimony of one Leon Maurer concerning Einstein's > interest in "The Secret Doctrine". > > http://users.aol.com/unIwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html > > LeonMaurer@a... > > [Helena Blavatsky] > The Secret Doctrine establishes three fundamental propositions: - > (a) An omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all > speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception > and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond > the range and reach of thought - in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and > unspeakable". > > [Peter Mutnick] > If the source of the complementary pairs of opposites is not this type of > plenitude, then the alternative is a cheap defective universe. This is the > impression that many have of complementarity and the Copenhagen > Interpretation, but it is a misconception on their part from the outset. > > [Blavatsky] > To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the > postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, > conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause - dimly formulated in the > "Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy - is the > rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be". It is of course devoid > of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, > finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, *Sat*), and is > beyond all thought or speculation. > > [Mutnick] > The penetration of the Unconscious leads to the implicate order as the true > Mind of the Observer. The Unknowable is the foundation for the implicate > order as the noumenal back-ground. The Infinite and Eternal Cause = the God > of Spinoza = the Implicate Order of Bohm. > > [Blavatsky] > This "Be-ness" is symbolized in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. On the > one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, the one > thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, or conceive > of by itself. On the other hand, absolute Abstract Motion representing > Unconditioned Consciousness. > > [Mutnick] > The primary pair of conjugate variables are enunciated in 1888! Moreover a > possibly profound meaning is given to them. > > [Blavatsky] > Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable to > us apart from change, and motion best symbolizes change, its essential > characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality is also symbolized by > the term "The Great Breath", a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further > elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine > is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE - BE-NESS - symbolized by finite > intelligence as the theological Trinity. > > It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are given > here. > Herbert Spencer has of late so modified his Agnosticism as to assert that the > nature of the "First Cause", which the Occultists more logically derives from > the "Causeless Cause", the "Eternal", and the "Unknowable", may be > essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up within us; > in short, that the impersonal reality pervading the Kosmos is the noumenon of > thought. This advance on his part brings him very near to the esoteric and > Vedantin tenet. > > Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute > Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned > existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But once > we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality supervenes in > the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, Subject and Object. > > [Mutnick] > This Absolute Consciousness is the same discovered by Edmund Husserl through > the phenomenological reduction. It is discovered by everyone who turns their > attention inward and asks in sincerity, "Who and What am I?" But this cannot > be done casually or even necessarily through an act of will. Husserl said > only that one should perform the phenomenological reduction at least once > during one's lifetime. It is a peak experience and the experience of a > lifetime. Zen adepts often had two experiences: one an initial Kensho; and > later a complete Enlightenment. > > [Blavatsky] > Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not as > independent realities, but as two facets or aspects of the Absolute > (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether > subjective or objective. > > Considering this metaphysical triad as the Root from which proceeds all > manifestation, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. > I is the *fons et origo* of force and of all individual consciousness, and > supplies the guiding intelligence in the vast scheme of cosmic Evolution. On > the other hand, precosmic root-substance (*Mulaprakriti*) is that aspect of > the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. > Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so > pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades of its > differentiation. > > [Mutnick] > Substance and Ideation have to do with the State Vector and its Reduction. > > [Blavatsky] > Hence it will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the > Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe". Apart > from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual > consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle of matter that > consciousness wells up as "I am I", a physical basis being necessary to focus > a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain level of complexity. Again, apart > from the Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty abstraction, > and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. > > [Mutnick] > Clearly applicable to the State Vector and its Reduction. > > [Blavatsky] > The "Manifested Universe", therefore, is pervaded by duality, which is, as it > were, the very essence of its EX-istence as "manifestation". > > [Mutnick] > EX-istence = explicate order. > > [Blavatsky] > But just as the opposite poles of subject and object, spirit and matter, are > but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized, so, in the > manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject to > object. > > This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by the > occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the > "Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature". > Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from the > other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all > manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through the > Dhyan Chohans, the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or > Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the several > vehicles in which that consciousness is individualized and attains to self - > or reflective - consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, is > the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle > electrifying every atom into life. > > [Niels Bohr] > "Actually, ordinary language by its use of such words as thoughts and > sentiments, admits typical complementary relations between conscious > experiences implying a different placing of the section line between the > observing subject and object on which attention is focussed. We are here > presented with a close analogy to the relationship between atomic phenomena > appearing under different experimental conditions and described by different > physical concepts, according to the role played by the measuring instruments. > In fact, the varying separation line between subject and object, > characteristic of different conscious experiences, is the clue to the > consistent logical use of such contrasting notions as will, conscience and > aspirations, each referring to equally important aspects of human > personality." (Niels Bohr, "Physical Science and the Study of Religions", > 1953, in TPWNB, Volume IV, pp. 159-60) > > [Mutnick] > Fohat as the mediator of subject and object is more than the "aspects of the > human personality" which are products of varying placements of the split. > Fohat actually synthesizes the opposites (complementary pairs) in a way that > is not yet understood. THIS IS A PRIMARY KEY TO THE SCIENCE OF THE 21ST > CENTURY! IT EXPLAINS THE DYNAMIC ACTION OF WILL IN A UNIVERSALLY CREATIVE > SENSE. > > [Maurer] > Too bad that Mutnick, while he sees the quantum correlation's with the > fundamental principles, can't see that, since Fohat manifests as the primary > field of electrical energy in its threefold aspects, that the link between > the opposites (fullness-emptiness, sleeping-waking, light-dark, etc.), as > well as the idea of "complementarity" depends solely on cyclic laws, and is > mediated by holographic field interference patterns overlaid on and carried > by the fundamental frequencies of the primal mind and memory fields... Linked > to each other by their coadunate zero-point centers of universal awareness > and will. Thus, like the DNA in any body cell can build the entire body > structure, the universe contains all of itself in any zero-point instant > "spinergy" spread everywhere throughout all of Space, both Absolute > (abstract) and Metric (phenomenal). > > [Blavatsky] > The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. > (1) The ABSOLUTE; the *Parabrahm* of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, > which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. > (2) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, > *unmanifested* Logos, the precursor of the "manifested". This is the "First > Cause", the "Unconscious" of European pantheists. > (3) Spirit-Matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe", Purusha and Prakriti, > or the *second* Logos. > (4) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World- Soul; the > Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of > Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. > The ONE REALITY; its *dual* aspects in the conditioned Universe. > > Further, the Secret Doctrine affirms: - > (b) The Eternity of the Universe *in toto* as a boundless plane; periodically > "the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and > disappearing", called "the manifesting stars", and the "sparks of Eternity". > "The Eternity of the Pilgrim"* is like a wink of the Eye of Self- Existence. > > *"Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our "Monad" (the two in one) during > its cycle of incarnation. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in > us, being an indivisible part of the integral whole - the Universal Spirit, > from which it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the > cycle. When it is said to emanate from the one spirit, an awkward and > incorrect expression has to be used, for lack of appropriate words in > English. The Vedantins call it Sutratma (Thread-Soul), but their explanation, > too, differs somewhat from that of the occultists; to explain which > difference, however, is left to the Vedantins themselves. From jpcondick@btinternet.com Tue Nov 12 14:57:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 22:57:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 98532 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 22:57:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 22:57:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO carbon.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 22:57:46 -0000 Received: from host213-1-197-166.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.197.166] helo=oemcomputer) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #15) id 18Bjya-00040f-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:57:45 +0000 Message-ID: <013801c28a9e$a9f3fac0$9d397bd5@oemcomputer> To: Subject: absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:54:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers Extract: "It was the mission of Madame Blavatsky, under the instructions of those Adepts, to give to the world selected portions of that archaic teaching. It should be remembered that an Adept -- a Master, is one who has achieved immortality, and therefore has the power to perceive truth as it is and at will to reflect it without distortion. It is because no one of lesser degree can claim that power always and with certainty that Their testimony must be regarded as the highest authority on all matters of occult doctrine and practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally that from the point of view of the "original programme" of the Society, no theosophical association has any raison d'etre if it does not remain true to the Masters and their teaching. There are some who seem to believe that it is possible to be faithful to the Masters while denying even the theoretical truth of their teaching. This is where the responsibility of the old Theosophical Society is so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma Letters the writer had occasion to point out in what important particulars that Society showed by its actions a serious divergence from the spirit and letter of the original teaching. That volume proves beyond question that H. P. B.'s writings are absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings, and in nothing is this more clearly discernible than in her exposition of the doctrines relating to the Life after Death." A. TREVOR BARKER. LONDON, December, 1924. From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 12 15:48:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 23:48:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 47586 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 23:48:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 23:48:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 23:48:42 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.127.1a64835d (3842) for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:48:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <127.1a64835d.2b02ed53@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:48:35 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Theosophical Fundamentalism To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/11/02 11:38:25 AM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> Have you any idea why the SD was subtitled, "A Synthesis of >Science, Religion >> and Philosophy?" > >Dear Leon-Gerald: > >Be careful. HPB said on the title page that the SD was a synthesis >and reiterated that statement in the body of the book and made it >clear in the way the book was written that it as a synthesis and >Theosopists violently contend that it is NOT a synthesis. One fellow >told me he has a hard time with non-Theosophists who point straight >at the word on the title page and ask him how he can steadfastly >contend that the book is not a synthesis. A Theosophistr in England >went so far as to deny that any of the quotes in the book are really >quotes. That does not fit into his belief system somehow. That >naughty word on the title page is a hot button issue for >Theosophiucal Fundamentalists and none of the rest of us have a clue >as to why. It is interesting how people can aggressively filter out >plain facts of which they wish to be unawate. What's to be careful of? (Besides comments laced with innuendoes based on statements or questions taken out of context.:-) Curious to know... Also, with reference to these comments, what is a "theosophical Fundamentalist", and, who and what is "the rest of us"? Is the former the same thing as being a "Christian Fundamentalist"? Can it be attributed to one who -- (before studying the "Synthesis of Science, Religion and Philosophy" as presented in the Secret Doctrine) -- entirely understands the "Three Fundamental Principles" and accepts them (even tentatively) as being the absolutely unconditionally valid basis of all that follows? Under those conditions, mightn't one consider such a person as a "Fundamentalist"? If so, why do some people use such a designation in a pejorative sense? Do they, if they consider themselves non fundamentalists, interpret the SD based on some other principles? If so, what are they? Did HPB present the Three Fundamental Principles as being theoretical (as she claimed the rest of the book should be considered) -- or as a factual basis (which one could accept or not) upon which all the concepts in the SD rested upon? Can we assume, then, that if one could not find another set of fundamental principles that contradicted the "Synthesis" (expressed consistently and without contradiction from every imaginable angle in the SD) -- that this "fundamentalism" would be a solid ground to stand upon in all further considerations as to the true nature of reality? If so, wouldn't it also be a reasonable basis to assume that the metaphysics of rounds and races, as explained in the SD, was also consistent with the true nature of reality? If not, what's the alternative origin and history of the human species, along with the involution and evolution of the consciousness and matter that, together, serve as the basis of its being? Since, apparently, HPB left very little room for interpretation in all her teachings, why shouldn't all theosophists who accept the SD (supplemented by her other writings) as being a synthetically true and consistent scientific, philosophical and religious basis of universal as well as human genesis and history, be proud of being considered as "fundamentalists"? Wouldn't it also be wise to check the meanings of the word "Synthesis" before we begin to comment on it with reference to its usage in the subtitle of the SD? From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 12 15:52:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 23:52:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 65618 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 23:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 23:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 23:52:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.51.273fbca1 (3842) for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:52:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <51.273fbca1.2b02ee3c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:52:28 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/11/02 11:56:58 AM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: (snip) >There is also a description in THE TRANSACTIONS OF THE >BLAVATSKY LODGE which as I recall unfortunately tends to give the >erroneous impression that this "on-looker" looks upon the world with >considerable anxiety but is unable to overrule the mortal self, >although responsible for its karma. To think that it has any anxiety >at all would be a misinterpretation of the text. Could you please quote the particular text? From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Nov 12 15:57:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 12 Nov 2002 23:57:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 40200 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2002 23:57:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2002 23:57:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2002 23:57:13 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-23.look.ca ([216.154.45.70] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Bkte-0003Oy-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:56:42 -0500 Message-ID: <3DD1956E.B9F273AA@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:57:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Leon/Gerald . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Surely we all have experienced, in whatever form, studies/cultivations of what might be seen as "our own basic sense of values," as by way of such as intuitive sense of relevance, by which we "cope,' generally/particularly, (and in addition to those modelized about by Theosophists in terms of "right/wrong"), and by which people in general, as well as "students of Theosophy," might benefit from, especially in areas (such as Theosophy) where there might be various tendencies/temptations to, (in effect?), get ahead of oneself, in some way, to some extent . . . (as in my case, eg, as Leon, Dallas, etc., might be eager to point out?) . . . That is, while such studies/cultivations might often (or occasionally?) be recognized (or paid some lip service to?) in theory, (as per, say, in terms of "Theosophic relevance"), I wonder how often and how "more specifically" the results of such concerns might be, or are, applied in practice. I ask because, from my perspective, here (on these lists) we have at least two (if not more?) rather mature Theosophists (in a sense?) who, (apparently?), can't even find in themselves the basics of a "higher sense of trust/relevance" BY WHICH they might span/communicate their way over and above their apparent differences, thereby showing to the rest of us (poor schnooks, in a sense) that they can, in effect, see "the forest" beyond the "trees of their apparent differences." Well, not that many "nice words" (no doubt?) have not passed between them, but/"but" . . . Thinking about the recent G/L/M cross-list discussions: I wonder if we're all focussing on the "same issue" (or "similar issue"?) in terms of (what might be seen as?) a fairly mutually understandable "ground-up" perspective, say, or if we might have been so busy pursuing our own various tangents that, (in effect?), we might have missed the forest for the trees . . . Or could it be that SOME trees (particulars apparent to individuals in "their own terms") are rather "instinctively" (or, as per one's seemingly unavoidable karmalogistics?) regarded as, or modelized as so exotic and esoteric that they "just couldn't" be visible enough "to most others," at all, regardless, or at least not until the occurance, (on the part of those others), of some kind of major enough karmic and spiritual breakthrough that closely enough allies with one's own . . . Or does manas (we?) prefer to subscribe to the belief or "sense" that there is a certain kind of general disposition on the part of manas (resulting in forms of unfriendliness?) that will not even as much as allow one to consider or speculate about "other possibilities" re "higher relevance" (as if such considerations were all too apparently---and rather automatically?---somehow subversive, eg?) . . . While, on the one hand, I tend to be rather astounded by the "apparent differences" of some participants on these lists, at the same time (of course?) we're all just being, (in a sense?), true to our times, karma, karmalogistics, aren't we? That is, not that manas "should've expected anything different"? But/"but" . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS I'm still interpreting, thinking about, speculating over Leon's Nov 12 post "re to Leon" on Theos-Talk, which seems "possibly relevant enough" from my tentative perspective to paste on the Theos-1 list, as well (if rather crossedly?), so that maybe Gerald (too?) might . . . whatever . . . maybe . . . Or am I over-speculating again? Anyway here's Leon's post (I hope I'm not getting myself in TOO much trouble for crossedly posting it): Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:14:47 EST From: leonmaurer@aol.com Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <The models of reality that were passed on to us by HPB >and the Mahatmas are, (IMHSO), something that, even >without much in the way of innate/direct understanding >about them, I tend to find interesting. Apparently >Gerald, on the other hand, having had more >direct/experiential/"esoteric" knowledge of such >models, finds them more meaningful than I can. Not >having had such direct experiences, myself, I feel that I >ought to not "state facts based on what I have read," >but should, instead, try to read between the lines, as >suggested by HPB. And so, not having had direct >enough experiences of such models, I feel that my >options, realistically speaking, in terms of comment >making, are limited to speculation, for better or worse. The first step (for want of a stronger motivation) is to find the teachings "interesting." However, if you did manage to correctly read between the lines -- which means using your intuition (which is a "direct experience") you would have no need to speculate. All speculations can do is confuse both the speculator and the ones he tells them to. And if such speculation leads to an answer such as, yes, it is correct, or no it isn't correct, since this is what the real meaning of what you are talking about is, etc. . . . All you would get is someone "telling it to you" -- which you still couldn't experience -- and would thus remain perpetually ignorant, while drowning in unresolved speculations and wrong views. (And, even, if by chance you had a right view, you would never know it.^:-( The "facts" stated with reference to my scientific theory of ABC, that is consistent with theosophical metaphysics (as studied carefully "between the lines and in the words" of the commentaries in the SD) -- is based on a direct meditative and intuitive experience of "being" the zero (laya) point and "feeling" the flow of the cyclic energies, along with their contained "images" that emanate and reflect from and to this center of my consciousness and will -- which is also in direct coadunation with the consciousness and will of the universal source, or "Beness" existing eternally in and as the Absolute "Abstract" Space, Time, Form, and Motion hidden in the zero-point-instant "singularity. (In spite of what Gerald or anyone else "tells you" -- this is the only way to truly understand the nature of your higher monadic Self -- which is forever at-one-ment with the triple natured Universal SELF.) One must be OM TAT SAT before one can "realize" or "experience" that one is what one is (or, as Popeye said it clearly, "I yam wot I yam cuz I yam wot I yam..." . (symbol of a bearded man who knows it all, and keeps it under his hat.) Remember, we have all been there before... So, there must be a deep seated memory in the subtlest akashic level of our mind of the path we took going out that we can retrace... That is, if we can get all the contradictory words and their associated images and conceptions out of our head, and think about it with an entirely clear and placid mind. That's what "real" meditation is all about. Patanjali has pointed out that way pretty thoroughly -- which leads one directly to a conscious awareness of the ultimate division of time, and the "knowing" that Infinite duration = the infinitesimal moment of creation-growth-decline-destruction. Incidentally, since all this occurs in the ever existent and present NOW, there is no difference between past present and future, and ten years of meditation can be compressed into an instant. Thus, "enlightenment," or pure Zen, Dyana, Chan, Dzyan, or whatever you call it, can come whenever you can stop speculating about it and just "grab it by the horns," so to speak. That certainly beats meditating on mantras, mudras, mandalas, and mental images of anthropomorphized demigods posing as natural forces, or constant speculating on vague, conflicting and contradictory ideas that leads to more and more confusion, and further away from the culture of consciousness, or attainment of self realization and divine wisdom. For me, this experience came about often (with every insight) during almost fifteen years of concentrated study and meditation "between the lines and in the words" of the SD (and every other book on occultism I could get my hands on) -- without asking anybody "what does it mean" or "speculating" or second guessing about it... Although, I discussed it with others, and listened to what they said for about five years (and then gave that up). (As Einstein said, "Genius is concentrating, alone, on a single point of inquiry for a long period of time.) I also filled the margins of two copies of the SD with hundreds, if not thousands of comments, restatements, questions, geometric pictures and numerological charts. Too, bad I didn't remember (in this lifetime:-) hearing the Buddha when he said, "enlightenment can come in seven lifetimes, seven years, seven days, or seven moments." (But, then, during those 15 years, I was working full time on dozens of projects and could only read about one paragraph a day. :-) What I found is that whenever one reads anything profound, or outside our own experience (even if only one sentence), we need only to focus on it, visualize its images, and meditate on, in, around, and between the words until an insight comes -- out of the blue, so to speak. (Sometimes, it takes a whole day and night.) Then, one has to question that insight using reason and logic. If the shoe fits, wear it... And, then walk on to the next profound idea. (It sometimes helps to read out loud what anyone has to say about any idea or truth. Tell it to yourself, so to speak. This method can sometimes lead to an instant clarification as to the truth or falsehood of what one is studying.) Theosophical study is a series of plateaus, each of which you might think is the final answer -- until you reach the next plateau. But, one must do it alone. No one can come with you on your personal search for truth and enlightenment. And it does no one any service to hear about another's insights -- since we are all on different plateaus, each on our own individual path. But, then, it wasn't enlightenment I was after this time around. It was practical occult knowledge that would help me to be better able to help and teach others. However, it took another ten years to also study the modern science and geometry I needed to come up with the final correlation's of ABC with the theosophical metaphysics. All told, between my education in science, fine art, architecture, engineering, occultism, alchemy, etc., and both technical and cutting edge creative experience in the fine, textile, graphic and entertainment arts, a total of almost 70 years of concentrated study and efforts lies behind my "scientizing" (I call it "generalizing" or "simplifying," in "the language of THIS age) the theosophical truths -- so that, hopefully, anyone with a reasonable IQ, and any level of experience or knowledge, can understand it... And, thus, accept the possibility of reincarnation and karma along with universal brotherhood, as fundamental laws of nature... And, with that out of the way, go about changing their minds about their own personal lives and their responsibilities for the lives and well being of everyone else on this mad planet. Thus, through this meditating "in the words and between the lines" (of everything I studied) I found out for myself what it feels like to be both the creator and the receptor, the observer and the doer. The whole trick is to put that "experience" into words that other people without such insight, can understand and, perhaps, by meditating on (any true occult teaching, or the zero-point itself) -- gain the intuitive insights, and experience the "reality" of pure existence and non existence for themselves. But then, as WQJ said in his instructions to one of his students, "Make sure to temper your intuition with your reason." (All the parts of the puzzle have to fit together as one, unbounded whole.) When that has been accomplished successfully, one is capable of stating such an intuition as a "fact." That's why any enlightened student/teacher can speak so confidently about the "facts of theosophy." Since, in essence, both the teachings and the teachers speak for themselves. It's also a fact that the teacher usually learns more about what he is teaching than his students do. This method is much more sound and conducive to finding truth within oneself, than listening to and accepting on "faith" or "authority" the "interpretations" given out by rote, based on written and verbal teachings of so called "Gurus" (that I hear from most of the "interpreters" of the Buddha's, and even of the theosophical Master's or HPB's teachings). Remember, what's written and said can only be exoteric. The esotericism is what is implied, practiced, and intuitively experienced in the quietness of "your own secret place." The ultimate goal of all meditation is finding, and listening to the Master within who can answer all your unspoken questions. Thus, one can end all speculation and loose talk about what is and what is not. After that, all that any one of us who know can do, is offer a few guideposts along the winding ways. As a matter of necessity, my guideposts are scientific and technological -- for those of such a bent of mind who believe fervently in the "scientific Method," their own intellects, and in the scientists who are their trusted gurus. These people, who are the majority today, laugh at the Buddhists, Vedantists and Theosophists, and the weird and ndecipherable languages they use... But, they don't laugh at me or my theories, given to them in straight English without reference to theosophy or any other religious concept. And, all real theosophists, whether they are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Hebrews, Christians, Taoists, or Atheists, all, also, know exactly what I mean when I say that the universe, which includes both its matter and our consciousness in eternity, must obey fundamental and immutable scientific laws of causality based on cycles and periodicity, starting from zero and extending to infinity in both space and time. Best wishes, LHM >>>>> PPS And Leon did, at one time, give me permission to quote and reprint his posts for the Toronto TS, as long as I attributed them to his authorship, and, since Gerald gave me similar persmission, well . . . ? Or is it that those permissions might not be relevant enough on these lists, for some readon? From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 17:40:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 01:40:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 14749 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 01:40:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 01:40:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 01:40:46 -0000 Received: from pool0801.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.15.36] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BmWJ-0007He-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:40:44 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:37:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <127.1a64835d.2b02ed53@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Synthesis gather all factors together and examines their cooperative relationships. Analysis discusses and speculates on their differences. Both systems are needed. They are polar opposites. They are the tools of the active mind of man which seeks to understand things as they are and as they might become. If one adds the fact that there are three main levels of universal BEING,. we can see why ancient Hindu Philosophy was considered to be 6-fold (the 7th being the synthesis of the others 6) The three divisions 1 the SPIRITUAL BI-Polar: ATMA BUDDHI 2 the Intellectual " MIND KAMA (Desire and Emotion) 3 The Physical " ASTRAL physical matter Running through thee are the laws of logical thinking Best wishes, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: leonmaurer Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:49 PM To: Subject: Re: Theosophical Fundamentalism In a message dated 11/11/02 11:38:25 AM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> Have you any idea why the SD was subtitled, "A Synthesis of >Science, Religion and Philosophy?" > From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 17:40:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 01:40:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 75982 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from pool0801.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.15.36] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18BmWE-0007He-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:40:39 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theosophical History, Teachings and Values DO THEY EXIST ? Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:36:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3DD1956E.B9F273AA@idirect.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 12 2002 Dear Mi: Let us together look at the ideas that Theosophy presents . Is it History -- a history of the evolution of our Universe and particularly of our Earth and of mankind? Are the Teachings so strange as not to be found in the traces we have of ancient theogonies? What kind of moral or ethical values are assigned to the results of any action performed by free-willed man? If you think that "Theosophy" affects things then I would say you err. It is the human mind that considers options and then chooses; This is what makes differences apparent. If the choices are based on partial knowledge the results will be equally imperfect. Should the choices we can make be based on an accurate knowledge of Universal an impersonal LAWS (WISDOM) then the result ought to be harmony and concord in all the various planes of being. Either the Universe runs under trustworthy laws or it does not. There is no unbalanced position, or have you discovered one? Or is it that we have not been able to make accurate observations of the operations of Karma -- and therefore doubt its immutability and sensitivity of response? Is it because we have not thought of, or discovered any "purpose" to life and living ? Theosophy is very simply a record of the facts and operations of Nature. It is History. As history it covers all fields of operation , past, present and so on into the future. Do we distrust its accuracy? do we think that to morrow we will not awaken? Do we distrust the Laws that Science has discovered in all departments of nature ? Is the existence of LAW suspect ? Its like the laws of nature which Science has observed in operation ( physics, chemistry, electronics, mathematics, astronomy, etc... and recorded the repetition of events in such a way that one can predict the recurrence of certain events and processes. Then those are called "Laws," and used with the certainty that they are "exact." When Scientists try to extrapolate back to probable developments, they often run afoul of the actual events because they are not able to perceive the CAUSES of the phenomena which they observe. I have found that the views offered by Theosophy of past events and development, make more logical sense than the attempts at reconstruction offered by various sciences (archaeology, paleontology, geology, the study of Theogonies, orientalism, psychology, philosophy, etc...) The great gap is this inability to see the causes of physical phenomena. If Science is examination of events, then Philosophy is the science of studying the inter-relation of such phenomena to their causes. Religion is that which attempts to depict ( I mean ancient religion, not the rites, rules, ceremonies, and trappings of ritualism, and all the so-called sacred and holy regulations that Priests impose and support to their own private profit. True Religion ought to be the history of the development of evolution explaining how the Universe evolves after its vast rest into the complexity we now have. Sacred is derived from sacrifice -- indicating that choices and actions so made are for the general (and not the selfish) good. This means that Religion is the performance of "sacred actions." How can these be performed with no perfect knowledge of the whole Universe, and it many laws? How can these be done unless the concept of the immortality of all beings at their core is considered? How can the interaction of beings not be considered as a vast pattern which harmoniously and exactly sets the parameters of all relationships past present and future? If Religion is the performance of "sacred actions," then our whole living ought to be a sacrament. Our choices ought to be based on wholeness and not on analysis and argument. Why is that so difficult? why do we insist on spending time over ephemera and trivia ? The main factors that theosophy emphasizes are : 1. An eternal and immutable base, named in various ways (such as the ABSOLUTE, SPIRIT, WISDOM, "GOD," DEITY, UNIVERSAL MIND, "CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE and MANKIND," etc...) but containing in those words the idea of FUNDAMENTAL and ETERNAL LAWS. These are impartial and are the regulations that all life, including human life, is affected and ruled by. [ How is it logically possible to conceive of a Universe where laws are chaotically and whimsically applied, where one is able to avoid or escape from the results of anything one does with or to others? In other words a Universe and Earth where moral laws are variable, and untrustworthy? ] 2. Consciousness and intelligence ( conveying the idea that the Spiritual Laws and evolutionary push are transmitted through the area of impression, emotion, desire, passion, psychism, and the activity of all interactive life -- into rules and laws of brotherhood, compassion, charity and a strict respect for the rights and privileges of all living beings ) -- this impression, as force and energy, is conveyed to 3. Matter, substance, and the various forms we see and feel around us, which seem to real that we assume the whole Universe is nothing but MATTER. It (Theosophy) is not an "ism" nor is it in existence to demand a regular increment of numbers who not understanding it join one or other of the various Theosophical bodies, thinking, perhaps, that such joining is the better part of discretion. Then they are disappointed when they fin that applied Theosophy is strenuous thought about consequences, and the laws of justice and equity in daily life. Well, perhaps this may be of some help. Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: M Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:58 PM To: Subject: Does Theosophy teach values? How is it different from Religions ? Surely we all have experienced, in whatever form, studies/cultivations of what might be seen as "our own basic sense of values," as by way of such as intuitive sense of relevance, by which we "cope,' generally/particularly, (and in addition to those modelized about by Theosophists in terms of "right/wrong"), and by which people in general, as well as "students of Theosophy," might benefit from, especially in areas (such as Theosophy) where there might be various tendencies/temptations to, (in effect?), get ahead of oneself, in some way, to some extent . . . (as in my case, eg, as Leon, Dallas, etc., might be eager to point out?) . . . That is, while such studies/cultivations might often (or occasionally?) be recognized (or paid some lip service to?) in theory, (as per, say, in terms of "Theosophic relevance"), I wonder how often and how "more specifically" the results of such concerns might be, or are, applied in practice. CUT From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 18:17:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 34891 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 02:17:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:17:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re Theosophical Fundamentalism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <127.1a64835d.2b02ed53@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3973 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.152 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > What's to be careful of? Well, it is absurd, but in the past whenever anyone has referred to the fact that Blavatsky wrote her book as a synthesis and identified it as such, a number of people got VERRRRRY upset. Why anyone would find that upsetting is an absolute total mystery to me. After all,it was BLAVATSKY and not any of us who chose to present the book as a synthesis. Anyway, no knees seem to be jerking this time, which is excellent. > what is a "theosophical Fundamentalist" There is nothing derisive about it. A "fundamentalist" is someone who believes in the inerrancy of the scriptures (which Blavatsky explicitly asked us not to do in her case) and who is afraid to investigate the subject too deeply (even rgiyfg Vkavarsjy explicitly told us the most interesting parts were deliberately hidden and invited us to uncover them.) Why do > some people use such a designation in a pejorative sense? You will have to ask them. I do not use that desination that way. > Did HPB present the Three Fundamental > Principles as being theoretical I dunno. Did she? > be considered) -- or as a factual basis (which one could accept or not) upon > which all the concepts in the SD rested upon? Volume 1 of the SD rests on the observation that objects were seemingly "materialized" in spirit seances and that Blavatsky claimed to have the secret of such materializations and claimed the ability to demo this phenomenon. More interestingly, she claimed these demos were demos of well understood principles, which by extrapolation could explain the materialization of the solar system out of apparently empty space. Bart L. said nobody knows how the mahatma letters were precipitated (those which were.) Not true. Study volume 1 of the SD and you will find about half of it there. The mahatmas considered the whole thing "secret" so it is hidden in plain sight as it were. The book is deliberately difficult to unravel. Much of the theory and pracice is not there at all but has to be found elsewhere. What we do not know at all is the correspondences and mantras which were used in her school. (Unless you are a chela, that is, which I am not.) Can we assume, then, that if > one could not find another set of fundamental principles that contradicted > the "Synthesis" (expressed consistently and without contradiction from every > imaginable angle in the SD) I suspect this is the fault of her editorial committee, but the SD is not without contradictions. > wouldn't it also be a reasonable basis to assume that the > metaphysics of rounds and races, as explained in the SD, was also consistent > with the true nature of reality? I can't agree with that. I have high regard (more than high) for the first volume and the yoga system which is partially revealed in it if you study it deeply enough. The second volume and the anthropological theory just have more problems with it than I can be comfortable with. If not, what's the alternative origin and > history of the human species, along with the involution and evolution of the > consciousness and matter The theory has to agree with scientific fact to be credible. The second volume has some problems in that area. > Since, apparently, HPB left very little room for interpretation Not true at all. Some of the nhe nuumbers, such as how many years since Lemuria sank are completely wrong in the SD, and HPB herslef says they were blinds, plain and simple. > why shouldn't all theosophists who accept the SD (supplemented by > her other writings) as being a synthetically true and consistent Fine where the cosmpogenetic theory is concerned. Ditto with the seven principles of man and nature. Assuming you understand them, that is. Most theosophists think these are objective, whereas they are statements about consciousness itself and not the onjects of consciousness. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 18:53:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 02:53:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 39510 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 02:53:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:53:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Dr. Gregory Tillett. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200211110435.PAA15104@mailman.zeta.org.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3258 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach What is your view on the "Mahatmas/Masters" as identified/portraid by=20 Blavatsky ? = =3D=0D Brian. --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > The claim that Leadbeater was a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue=20 Road=B2 both lacks any support from historical evidence, and is contrary=20 to such evidence as there is. It was a claim only made (of course) after=20 HPB=B9s death. What is meant by =B3a member of HPB=B9s circle=B2? Clearly,= =20 it does not mean membership of the ES, let alone of the IG of the ES;=20 membership lists for both exist and Leadbeater was not among those=20 named. Why was he not a member of either of these two groups? > No correspondence between HPB and Leadbeater exists to support=20 any intimate relationship, and no correspondence of HPB exists in which=20 there is any reference to Leadbeater implying any such relationship.=20 Leadbeater is known to have visited HPB twice between his return to=20 England from India and her death. Boris de Zirkhoff stated that there=20 was no evidence in any of HPB=B9s papers or correspondence to suggest=20 any close relationship between Leadbeater and HPB, and Alice Leighton=20 Cleather, a member of HPB=B9s Inner Group, denied that HPB had ever=20 referred to Leadbeater as a pupil or associate, and said she had never=20 seen him at the London headquarters during HPB=B9s life. Leadbeater=B9s=20 own accounts of his life at that period make no reference to or claim of=20 a special relationship with HPB - until he revised his history well after H= =3D=0D PB =B9s death. Indeed, Leadbeater was a member of the London Lodge, and=20 a close associate of A.P. Sinnett, at a time when there was tension, if=20 not conflict, between Sinnett and the London Lodge, and HPB and the=20 Blavatsky Lodge. Leadbeater acted as a medium in Sinnett=B9s quest to=20 make contact with the Masters, and was a member of what was, in=20 effect, Sinnett=B9s =B3Inner Group=B2. > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time, made no=20 claim for any special relationship between HPB and Leadbeater in his=20 accounts of the period. See, for example, Jinarajadasa=B9s =B3K.H.Letters=20 to C.W.Leadbeater=B2, 1943:68-69.=20 > Given the total absence of evidence to support the claim that=20 Leadbeater was a member of =B3HPB=B9s circle in Avenue Road=B2, and the=20 evidence against the claim, anyone asserting Leadbeater=B9s special=20 relationship is obliged to present their evidence. > The claim that HPB presented Leadbeater with the =B3first copy=B2 of =B3 The Voice of the Silence=B2 is similarly entirely unsupported by historical= =20 evidence. That she presented him with a copy is certain; curiously=20 enough, her inscription in that copy does not correctly name Leadbeater.=20 She inscribed it to =B3W.C.Leadbeater=B2. This implies either that she did= =20 not even correctly recall his name, or that she was making a peculiarly=20 English joke at his expense. Neither explanation suggests a close or=20 personal relationship. As with all claims about Leadbeater, those who=20 make them should present evidence, not mere assertions in the absence=20 of evidence. Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar,=20 nothing can be taken on his word alone. >=20 > Dr Gregory Tillett From netemara888@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 19:05:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 03:05:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 24422 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 03:05:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 03:05:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 03:05:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 03:05:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:05:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Daniel C.Caldwell's Precipitation a big Con. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3154 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: Count Witte Blavatsky's relative wrote Blavatsky used to run an ink > and paper store. ******* Brian, I thought you were leaving? Well, glad you changed your mind. Or maybe you said you would not waste any more time trying to disprove this? Anyway, where is the reference, what book has this reference that Helena used to run an ink and paper store? Was it in Russia? Or in Paris? I have not come across that reference. Not saying it don't exist though. Loyola must have always had a fascination with ink, ink pens, and paper as her mother was a famous writer, who published anonymously, but was said to be the Russian George Sand. So, she must have come into a love of writing early on as her mother died when Helena was rather young. And came into a love of books from reading in her grandfather's vast library. And her siblings and relatives also said that she had such a vivid imagination that she used to tell them wild fantasies to the point that they were all terrified as they seemed to come to life in the telling. So, you have all the ingredients at a young age of a woman destined to have a public life in which she would entertain and teach the masses with her abilities using the written word. One who was a born actress, writer, and storyteller. But all this taken together does not make her a forger. Or that she forged everything she touched. Besides if she had the ability to be taken for a master, then she is for all intents and purposes the voice of the master at that time, for that message. However, DK says that SOME of the letters were forged. Leaves us back at square one. We both have Libra moons, I understand that she was at heart a peacemaker and a diplomat. She was not a boat rocker per se, but things seemed to get shook up wherever she went! Netemara **************** And J. Godwin who wrote the famous book "The > Theosophical Enlightenment" at one time produced his own "Mahatma > Letters" by simple writing on colored pencil with the paper resting on the > cloth binding of a book with the pattern determining the clean and sharp > effect, and sending to his friends like among others K. Paul Johnson. > This is among others hinted at in the interview with K. Paul Johnson on > this web site. K. Paul Johnson in fact flew personally to London to look at > the letters in the British Museum (with Leslie Price) and stated the J. > Godwin demonstration looked the same. > > Editor: Could the unknown factor described by Harrison, and by some > interpreted as "precipitation," not easily be produced by writing with a > colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a book with > the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect? > > K.Paul Johnson: Yes, another writer on Blavatsky once demonstrated this > for me and it does produce the same kind of effect as seen in some of > the Mahatma letters. > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 12 19:36:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 03:36:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 79209 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 03:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 03:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 03:36:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 03:36:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:36:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <51.273fbca1.2b02ee3c@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3068 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.234.152 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Could you please quote the particular text? "the [Higher] Ego ... is highly spiritual, and is linked very closely with the higher principles, Buddhi and Atma." But she says that: "the Higher] Ego must not be confused with what we call the 'Higher Self.'" The reason is undoubtedly that the Higher Self does not reside within the body, whereas the Higher Ego, being "linked very closely" with it, is a reflection of the Higher Self within the body. "These higher principles are entirely inactive on our plane, and the higher Ego (Manas) itself is more or less dormant during the waking of the physical man. This is especially the case with persons of very materialistic mind. So dormant are the Spiritual faculties, because the Ego is so trammelled by matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to the man's actions, even should the latter commit sins for which that Ego ? when reunited with its lower Manas ? will have to suffer conjointly in the future. It is, as I said, the impressions projected into the physical man by this Ego which constitute what we call "conscience"; and in proportion as the Personality, the lower Soul (or Manas), unites itself to its higher consciousness, or EGO, does the action of the latter upon the life of mortal man become more marked." The statement that "these higher principles are entirely inactive on our plane" can be understood in terms of the Adwaita Vedanta theory that one must pass from the waking state to the dreaming state to dreamless sleep or oblibion to get to the fourth (turiya) and then return through oblivion to get back to the waking state. Part of the goal of the yogi is to pass through dreamless sleep and return through dreamless sleep without losing consciousness or memory. HPB says only an "Adept" can do this but that is not true. Lesser mortals than Adepts have done it. Incidentally, HPB and Judge both are said in Theosophical lit to have achieved this. The process by which "the Personality, the lower Soul (or Manas), unites itself to its higher consciousness, or EGO" is brought about by the Higher Self connections taught by K.H. and others. That this is true can easily be seen when you consider that the HS connection gradually makes the higher principles more accessible to consciousness and v.v. When I first read this many years ago the statement that "the Ego is so trammelled by matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to the man's actions, even should the latter commit sins for which that Ego ... will have to suffer conjointly" suggested that "the Ego" watches the actions of the lower manas with anxiety. That seems intuitively obvious since the "Ego" has no say and yet must take responsibility. However it is plain that the "Ego" is not anxious, and if you examine the text carefully, it is plain that HPB does not imply that it is. This whole discussion of hers has to do with yoga experience and cannot be properly appreciated IMO without reference to that. From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Nov 13 04:55:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 12:55:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 8854 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 12:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 12:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 12:55:46 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-22.look.ca ([216.154.45.117] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Bx3J-0000PC-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:55:29 -0500 Message-ID: <3DD24BF6.D5CBD2A@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:56:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Leon/Steve . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Steve wrote: <> That wording "whereas they are statements about consciousness itself and not the objects of consciousness" seems to be the kind of wording that I might've used to better advantage, all along, (maybe, I'm speculating . . . ) when writing to Leon, Dallas, and others, about exoteric/esoteric. How one interprets those words, is, as I see it, kind of key here, though. And since any merely exoteric/dualistic (no matter how "logical") explanatory version of such words can only go as far as duality allows, one might wonder (at some point?), where that kind of dualistic logic train is headed, aside from various kinds of dualistic/logical destinations . . . Not that there's anything wrong with many dualistic/logical destinations, but/"but" . . . What about the non-dualistic destinations (that may transcend conventional/mainstream logic?) . . . If logical/dualistic destinations of such trains of thought are seen as more important or more relevant than non-dualistic destinations, than those logical destinations will have their way, I suppose, for the most part . . . Not that introductory scientizings in dualistic/logical terms (even when "intentionally" excluding speculative, creative, or "freer thoughts" from such scientizings) might not be seen to have a somewhat over-riding relevance/importance in many situations (especially in the current, mainstream climate, apparently?); but, then, at the same time, one might be inclined to question whether that kind of scientizing logic would or would not lead to the likes of (what might be called?) the heart of the kind of Theosophic wisdom that, (obviously or not?), is a transcendent aspect in as much as if it's seen as non-dualistic, and so, because of that, such transcendence could not (?) ever be arrived at by any kind of dualistic logic train . . . On the other hand, if the passengers on such trains were to have some kind of basic appreciation about the limits of their dualistic tracks, ahead of time, then maybe such travelers might find ways of cultivating notions about logical/dualistic destinations in a somewhat more transcendent and more truly Theosophic manner . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Well, I suppose that, for the most part, the passengers on most trains are a mixed bunch. But what about individual passengers who, in their own way, might appreciate this and that, and . . . And if a bunch of passengers prefer, for whatever reason (that Theosophists might see as mayavic), various dualistic/logical destinations . . . well, I can think of worse things . . . From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Nov 13 07:16:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 15:16:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 28002 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 15:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 15:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 15:16:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 59866 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 15:16:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.38) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 15:16:39 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.38 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 10:16:39(EST) on November 13, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.38 To: Subject: FW: Event of Interest Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:16:07 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c28b27$974c4a60$26bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got a copy of this in the mail. It may be of interest to anyone living in the area. -----Original Message----- From: AnotherMoonGifts@aol.com [mailto:AnotherMoonGifts@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:22 PM To: theos-world-owner@yahoogroups.com Subject: Event of Interest Hello, Below is information on a free reading, discussion, and booksigning which we are hosting and may be of interest to any persons near Portland, Oregon (Oregon and Washington states) who are interested in Theosophical subject matter. Please feel free to share this information with anyone you know who may wish to attend, or post it on any appropriate lists. Full details appear below. For any further information, please view our website or contact me at this email address. Thank you, and be very well! Jason @ Another Moon READING, DISCUSSION, BOOKSIGNING! Who,What: Tim Maroney will be on hand to read, discuss and sign copies of The Book of Dzyan. When, Where: November 23, 2002, 2-4pm Another Moon 618 NW Flanders Street (503) 223-9332 www.anothermoon.com Press Release: Another Moon welcomes Tim Maroney, editor of The Book of Dzyan, a fascinating and scholarly text which presents Theosophy's H.P. Blavatsky and the pivitol Stanzas of Dzyan ("Being a manuscript curiously received by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky") within the context of 19th and 20th century occultism. Maroney's biographical introduction to the Book of Dzyan has been called "the most insightful and balanced discussion of Blavatsky's writings to date" (K. Paul Johnson, author of The Masters Revealed). What do H.P. Blavatsky and H.P. Lovecraft have in common? Join us for this special event and find out! The Book of Dzyan is Tim Maroney's first book. He has written for Gnosis magazine, and has become a popular speaker on spiritual topics such as "Scientific Meditations" and "The Anthropology of Initiation." He is a Gnostic Priest, as well as an initiate of the Ordo Templi Orientis, Neo-Pagn Witchcraft, and the Golden Dawn. On Saturday, November 23rd, Another Moon welcomes Tim for a reading, discussion, and booksigning. Copies of The Book of Dzyan will be available for purchase. This event is free! Be very well! ~~ Another Moon ~~ 618 NW Flanders Street Portland, Oregon 97209 (503) 223-9332 www.anothermoon.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 07:51:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 15:51:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 13938 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:37 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:51:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2975 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Alice Bailey did not copy from other books when she wrote the voluminous works of "D.K." they where clearly written fluently and in that sence her books are genuine (but in her biography she admitted to have read Theosophical books all day for a period, while she was cooking, ironing and so on) so did "Helene Smith" not copy from any known script her "Martian writings" written fluently in front of witnesses. So there are logical explanations where the content of the Mahatma Letters came from, and how they where created, the above is part of it ( I repeat myself with this of course) so those who want to claim explanations that defy all rules of physics and logic as we know them to date (2002) should provide some reasonable evidence to proof otherwise. For example where are other documents independent of Blavatsky about this (apparently organized) Brotherhood in Tibet, Egypt, and other places ? Besides having largely been produced as per above (Bailey/Smith/ and the hundreds of other such examples that exist all over the place if you just study the subject) it has been clearly shown that The Mahatma Letters (again this seems to meet the pattern of Blavatsky see: ) also contain directs copying from texts Blavatsky (or/and whoever helped her at times) cuold clearly have in here (there if Damodar was involved) ) position, like the (by now famous) "Kiddle incident" the copying from American occultist P.B.Randolph's books and so on. Ad to this all the evidence listed in the book by the Hare brothers already back in 1936 "Who Wrote The Mahatma Letters ?" that NOT ALL, has been refuted by Theosophists EVER, and added to this what we know today (read the books of Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney) the case can be said to be clear enough and closed. Blavatsky as is abundantly shown in Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney clearly mined other people and sources, and synthesized them. And the "elder Brothers" where not the older races, because they had to go! But the elder brothers where the members of the Brotherhood that had looked upon man since its conception. And they came from the Aryan home land Atlantis carried ,there Atlantean palm leaf library up to Tibet where they setled dow. But they where not Tibetans themselves because they said Tibetans to be semblances of humanity that with all the rest had to disappear. So the from there Aryan abode in Tibet they wrote the Mahatma letters gave Blavatsky the Stanzas from Atlantis, and directed the writing of the commentary of this Atlantian document they had carried up there and make sure the Secret Doctrine with the teachings of the "elder" Aryan brothers from Atlantis. Brian From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 07:51:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 15:51:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 87332 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 15:51:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:51:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2975 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Alice Bailey did not copy from other books when she wrote the voluminous works of "D.K." they where clearly written fluently and in that sence her books are genuine (but in her biography she admitted to have read Theosophical books all day for a period, while she was cooking, ironing and so on) so did "Helene Smith" not copy from any known script her "Martian writings" written fluently in front of witnesses. So there are logical explanations where the content of the Mahatma Letters came from, and how they where created, the above is part of it ( I repeat myself with this of course) so those who want to claim explanations that defy all rules of physics and logic as we know them to date (2002) should provide some reasonable evidence to proof otherwise. For example where are other documents independent of Blavatsky about this (apparently organized) Brotherhood in Tibet, Egypt, and other places ? Besides having largely been produced as per above (Bailey/Smith/ and the hundreds of other such examples that exist all over the place if you just study the subject) it has been clearly shown that The Mahatma Letters (again this seems to meet the pattern of Blavatsky see: ) also contain directs copying from texts Blavatsky (or/and whoever helped her at times) cuold clearly have in here (there if Damodar was involved) ) position, like the (by now famous) "Kiddle incident" the copying from American occultist P.B.Randolph's books and so on. Ad to this all the evidence listed in the book by the Hare brothers already back in 1936 "Who Wrote The Mahatma Letters ?" that NOT ALL, has been refuted by Theosophists EVER, and added to this what we know today (read the books of Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney) the case can be said to be clear enough and closed. Blavatsky as is abundantly shown in Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney clearly mined other people and sources, and synthesized them. And the "elder Brothers" where not the older races, because they had to go! But the elder brothers where the members of the Brotherhood that had looked upon man since its conception. And they came from the Aryan home land Atlantis carried ,there Atlantean palm leaf library up to Tibet where they setled dow. But they where not Tibetans themselves because they said Tibetans to be semblances of humanity that with all the rest had to disappear. So the from there Aryan abode in Tibet they wrote the Mahatma letters gave Blavatsky the Stanzas from Atlantis, and directed the writing of the commentary of this Atlantian document they had carried up there and make sure the Secret Doctrine with the teachings of the "elder" Aryan brothers from Atlantis. Brian From tomkan@earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 08:30:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: tomkan@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 16:30:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 67406 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 16:30:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 16:30:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 16:30:46 -0000 Received: from sdn-ap-005neomahp0255.dialsprint.net ([63.186.41.1] helo=dellhodges) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C0Pd-0005jA-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:30:45 -0800 Message-ID: <00bd01c28b32$2cfb7d60$0129ba3f@dellhodges> To: "JERRY VINEYARD" Subject: THE FRIG: Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:31:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "THOMAS A HODGES" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95741141 X-Yahoo-Profile: tkansasboy Hello Jerry: Thanks for the run down about the frig. Gosh keeping dead animals in the same refrig as food for human consumption doesn't sound to me like a very good idea. Yeah, I know most Muggles keep dead meat in their refrig to cook for later on but a dead animal with all fur and feather attached is something different isn't it. Nice that you got a special one that you can call all just your own and no one else has "options" to it and you can keep it clean to your own satisfaction and so forth. I know what you mean about others taking advantage of a situation that you might have set up just for yourself for your benefits and then suddenly it becomes "everyone's" property.... So not such a good idea More to come, tommie two From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 08:39:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 16:39:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 46525 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 16:39:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 16:39:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 16:39:00 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C0Xb-0007MP-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:38:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD2802A.8953EFA0@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:39:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World FW: Event of Interest References: <001401c28b27$974c4a60$26bba7a7@scribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Tim Maroney will be on hand to read, discuss and sign copies of The > Book of Dzyan. I've known Tim for a long time. He's good and knowledgeable. Bart From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 08:41:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 16:41:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 7934 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 16:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 16:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 16:41:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 16:41:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:41:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Daniel C.Caldwell's Precipitation a big Con. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3803 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach netemara: Anyway, where is the reference, what book has this reference that Helena used to run an ink and paper store? Was it in Russia? In russia yes, and it is recorded in "The Memoirs of Count Witte", translated from the original Russian manuscript and edited by Abraham Yarmolinsky, pp. 4-10. 1921. Count Witte was the uncle of Blavatsky. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: Count Witte Blavatsky's relative wrote Blavatsky used to run > an ink > > and paper store. > > > ******* > Brian, I thought you were leaving? Well, glad you changed your mind. > Or maybe you said you would not waste any more time trying to > disprove this? Anyway, where is the reference, what book has this > reference that Helena used to run an ink and paper store? Was it in > Russia? Or in Paris? I have not come across that reference. Not > saying it don't exist though. > > Loyola must have always had a fascination with ink, ink pens, and > paper as her mother was a famous writer, who published anonymously, > but was said to be the Russian George Sand. So, she must have come > into a love of writing early on as her mother died when Helena was > rather young. And came into a love of books from reading in her > grandfather's vast library. And her siblings and relatives also said > that she had such a vivid imagination that she used to tell them wild > fantasies to the point that they were all terrified as they seemed to > come to life in the telling. So, you have all the ingredients at a > young age of a woman destined to have a public life in which she > would entertain and teach the masses with her abilities using the > written word. One who was a born actress, writer, and storyteller. > > But all this taken together does not make her a forger. Or that she > forged everything she touched. Besides if she had the ability to be > taken for a master, then she is for all intents and purposes the > voice of the master at that time, for that message. However, DK says > that SOME of the letters were forged. > > Leaves us back at square one. We both have Libra moons, I understand > that she was at heart a peacemaker and a diplomat. She was not a boat > rocker per se, but things seemed to get shook up wherever she went! > > Netemara > > **************** > > And J. Godwin who wrote the famous book "The > > Theosophical Enlightenment" at one time produced his own "Mahatma > > Letters" by simple writing on colored pencil with the paper resting > on the > > cloth binding of a book with the pattern determining the clean and > sharp > > effect, and sending to his friends like among others K. Paul > Johnson. > > This is among others hinted at in the interview with K. Paul > Johnson on > > this web site. K. Paul Johnson in fact flew personally to London to > look at > > the letters in the British Museum (with Leslie Price) and stated > the J. > > Godwin demonstration looked the same. > > > > Editor: Could the unknown factor described by Harrison, and by some > > interpreted as "precipitation," not easily be produced by writing > with a > > colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a > book with > > the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect? > > > > K.Paul Johnson: Yes, another writer on Blavatsky once demonstrated > this > > for me and it does produce the same kind of effect as seen in some > of > > the Mahatma letters. > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 08:56:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 4772 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:56:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Daniel C.Caldwell's Precipitation a big Con. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2642 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Netemara: here the actual reference from Count Witt's Diary about Blavatsky's inkschop ans special writigsckils: "She was next heard of from Odessa, where she emerged in the company of her faithful basso. At that time our entire family was settled in that city (my grandparents and father had died at Tiflis), and my brother and I attended the university there. The extraordinary couple must have found themselves in great straits. It was then that my versatile cousin opened in succession an ink factory and retail shop and a store of artificial flowers. In those days she often came to see my mother, and I visited her store several times, so that I had the opportunity of getting better acquainted with her. I was especially impressed by the extraordinary facility with which she acquired skill and knowledge of the most varied description. Her abilities in this respect verged on the uncanny. . . . Consider also that although she never seriously studied any foreign languages, she spoke several of them with perfect ease. I was also struck by her mastery of the technique of verse. She could write pages of smoothly flowing verse without the slightest effort, and she could compose essays in prose on every conceivable subject. Besides, she possessed the gift of hypnotizing both her hearer and herself into believing the wildest inventions of her fantasy. She had, no doubt, a literary talent. The Moscow editor, Katkov, famous in the annals of Russian journalism, spoke to me in the highest terms of praise about her literary gifts, as evidenced in the tales entitled "From the Jungles of Hindostan" [sic] which she contributed to his magazine, The Russian Messenger (Russki Vyestnik)". > > > this web site. K. Paul Johnson in fact flew personally to London to > > look at > > > the letters in the British Museum (with Leslie Price) and stated > > the J. > > > Godwin demonstration looked the same. > > > > > > Editor: Could the unknown factor described by Harrison, and by > some > > > interpreted as "precipitation," not easily be produced by writing > > with a > > > colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a > > book with > > > the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect? > > > > > > K.Paul Johnson: Yes, another writer on Blavatsky once > demonstrated > > this > > > for me and it does produce the same kind of effect as seen in some > > of > > > the Mahatma letters. > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > wrote: From nama_sivam@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 09:04:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:04:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 99738 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web12902.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:04:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20021113170401.45524.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.199.232.246] by web12902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:04:01 PST Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:04:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Theos-World newmember To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: nama siva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=128033841 X-Yahoo-Profile: nama_sivam thank u verymuch namasivayam --- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Welcome to our group. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > -----Original Message----- > From: nama siva [mailto:nama_sivam@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:51 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World new member > > i am in Chennai, India. Happy to join this group. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 09:11:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 17720 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:11:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Count Witt's Diary"?? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1127 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte writes: ". . . here the actual reference from Count Witt's Diary about Blavatsky's inkschop ans special writigsckils. . . . " Actually Brian should have written Count Witte's AUTOBIOGRAPHY --- not diary. You can find Count Witte's remarks about HPB reprinted at BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES. See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/witte.htm There are many inaccuracies in Witte's account. For example, read the following words from Witte: "Mme. Blavatski entered Cairo in a wet skirt and without a penny to her name. How she extricated herself from that situation, I do not know, but she was next discovered in England, where she founded a Theosophic Society. To strengthen the foundations of the new cult, she travelled to India, where she studied the occult science of the Hindus. Upon her return from India she became the centre of a large group of devotees of the theosophic doctrine and settled in Paris as the acknowledged head of the theosophists. Shortly afterwards she fell ill and died." There are at least 3 errors in this extract. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 09:26:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:26:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 61965 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:26:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 17:26:02 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:26:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Notes on Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1222 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte has been publishing material from Peter Washington's book "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" on his/her website. Discerning readers might want to COMPARE what Peter Washington writes about Blavatsky and Theosophy with what W. T. S. Thackara writes about Washington's book. Thackara writes: "On superficial examination the book [by Washington] appears to be well-researched and objective. But a more careful inspection -- especially of the theosophic section, to which these remarks are limited -- discloses serious errors and omissions. Aside from fairly obvious use of innuendo and half-truths to bolster his negative conclusions about H. P. Blavatsky and Katherine Tingley, the author is frequently inaccurate, misrepresents theosophic teaching, relies on uncorroborated assertion (often from unfriendly secondary and tertiary sources), omits rebuttal evidence, garbles dates, events, and attributions, downgrades, trivializes, and generally gives a one- sided account. Whatever merit the book may have is defeated by its unreliability and prejudice." Thackara's full article can be found at: http://home.pacbell.net/amsec/theo2b.html Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 09:29:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:29:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 69999 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:29:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:29:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:29:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 17:29:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:29:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200211110435.PAA15104@mailman.zeta.org.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 733 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Jinarajadasa, who was living with Leadbeater at the time Very interesting indeed. In his Golden Book as I recall, J. indicated he was a great fan of "celibacy" and hoped women could someday produce babies by "occult" means so heterosexual activity could be eliminated. I always wondered why he was so negative. Now it appears he was Leadbeater's homosexual lover. Another hidden agenda in Theosophical history gets exposed to full view. > Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone. Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of HPB. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 09:45:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 61166 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:45:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Assertion by Brian/Brigitte: Give us the details please Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5525 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte wrote: ". . . Ad to this all the evidence listed in the book by the Hare brothers already back in 1936 "Who Wrote The Mahatma Letters ?" that NOT ALL, has been refuted by Theosophists EVER. . . . " If I understand B/B's point, the assertion is made that NOT ALL of the "evidence" given by the Hare brothers has been refuted by Theosophists. If this is actually B/B's point, then this must mean that B/B has not only read and studied the Hare book but has ALSO carefully read, studied and compared all of the critiques of the Hare book with what the Hare brothers wrote. Brian/Brigitte, have you ACTUALLY read the critiques of the Hare book? I give the list of the critiques at the end of this email [See BELOW]. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, please Brian/Brigitte, give us on this forum a few DETAILED examples of the "evidence" in the Hare book never refuted by the Theosophists. I don't mean vague generalizations but detailed examples. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------------------------ The Hare Brothers' Controversy (Items are listed in chronological order of publication) Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters? London, England: Williams & Norgate, 1936. 326 pp. Stokes, H.N. "Demolishing the Mahatmas," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), June-July 1936, pp. [1-7] Fortune, Dion. [Book Review of Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?] The Inner Light (London, England), July, 1936, pp. 185-189. Thomas, Margaret A. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?", The Canadian Theosophist, Vol. 17, August 15, 1936, pp. 167-170. Stokes, H.N. "Did H.P. Blavatsky Write These Mahatma Letters?", The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August-September, 1936, pp. [1-4] Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Twins and `A Libel on a Laureate,'" The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August-September, 1936, p. [10]. Cox, Harold R.W. "Who Wrote the March-Hare Attack on the Mahatmas?," The Canadian Theosophist, October 15, 1936, pp. 225-243. Ryan, Charles J. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?" The Theosophical Forum (Point Loma, California), October 1936, pp. 253-263. See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ryanmlhare.htm Stokes, H.N. "The Bogus Mahatmic Americanisms of the Brothers Hare," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), October 1936, pp. [1-7]. Editorial in Occult Review, Oct. 1936. Savage, Helen. "The Hare Attack Repulsed," The Occult Review (London), October 1936, pp. 251-256. Stokes, H.N. "Choice Tidbits from the Hares' Book on The Mahatma Letters," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), November 1936, pp. [1-5]. Cousins, James. H. "The Blavatsky Riddle Again," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), November, 1936, pp. 152-156. [Gardner, Mrs. Adelaide] "The Real Problem of The Mahatma Letters," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), November, 1936, pp. 156-157. Ryan, Charles J. "An Important Correction," [Letter to the Editor], The Canadian Theosophist, December 15, 1936, pp. 326-338. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Brothers' Arsenal of `Duds,'" The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), December 1936, pp. [1-5]. Wood, Ernest. "The Masters' Signatures," The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), Vol. 58, December 1936, pp. 259-262. Hudson, Irne Bastow. "Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters?" Answered. Victoria, British Columbia, Canada: The Author, 1936. 47 pp. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Brothers on the Motives of H.P. Blavatsky," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), January 1937, pp. [1-5]. Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. "The Mahatma Letters," [Letter to the Editor], The Occult Review (London, England), January 1937, pp. 52-53, and continued on pp. 55, 57, 59 and 61. Stokes, H.N. "The Hares Use a Boomerang in Rebuttal," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), February, 1937, pp. [1-2.] Stokes, H.N. "The Hares on He-Mahatmas and She-Mahatmas," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March 1937, pp. [1-7] Hare, William Loftus. "William Loftus Hare in Rebuttal," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March, 1937, pp. [7-8]. Stokes, H.N. "Mr. Hare Contradicts Himself about Mahatma Letters," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), March, 1937, pp. [8-9]. Hare, William Loftus. Letter to the Editor. The Canadian Theosophist, April, 1937, pp. Smythe, C.T. Reply to Hare, C.T., April, 1937, p. Stokes, H.N. "A Trip to Reviewland---Hare Reviewers on Parade," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), April, 1937, pp. [1-6]. Jinarajadasa, C. "Did H.P. Blavatsky Invent the Mahatmas?", The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), May, 1937, pp. 105-109. Stokes, H.N. "A Trip to Reviewland---II," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), May-June, 1937, pp. [1-4]. Stokes, H.N. "Letter to `The Occult Review' About the Hare Brothers," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), July, 1937, pp. [6-7]. Alberti, Amalia de. "H.P. Blavatsky and the Press," The Modern Mystic (London, England), July 1937, pp. 18-20. Stokes, H.N. "A Handwriting Expert De Luxe," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), August, 1937, pp. [4-6]. Hare, William Loftus and Hare, Harold Edward. The Mahatma Letters: Alibi and Post Mortem Defences. Letchworth, England: G.W. Wardman, 1937. 20 pp. Stokes, H.N. "The Hare Volcano Erupts Again," The O.E. Library Critic (Washington, D.C.), December, 1937, pp. [5-8]. Hastings, Beatrice. Defence of Madame Blavatsky. Volume 1. Worthing, England: The Hastings Press, 1937. 60 pp From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 09:59:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 17:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 72578 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 17:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 17:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 17:59:16 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C1nI-0000te-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:59:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD292F8.19678151@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:59:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of > HPB. Depends on where you are. In the New York Lodge, Leadbeater is largely ignored. Bart From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 10:01:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:01:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 79649 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:01:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:01:45 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:01:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A Statement by Tillett Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 762 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Gregory Tillett wrote: "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing can be taken on his word alone." Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement: "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of HPB." But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either! I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar." OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a pathological liar." Right? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 10:10:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:10:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 15795 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:10:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:10:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:10:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 7161 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell A Mahatma Letter in a Pillow: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Testimony of A. P. Sinnett October 20, 1880=20 Simla, India Accompanied by our guests [Madame Blavatsky, Colonel Olcott, and Alice Gordon], we went to have lunch one day on the top of a neighboring hill. The night before, I had had reason to think that my correspondent, Koot Hoomi, had been in what I may call subjective communication with me. After discussing the subject in the morning, I found on the hall table a note from Koot Hoomi, in which he promised to give me something on the hill which should be a token of his (astral) presence near me the previous night. We went to our destination, camped down on the top of the hill, and were engaged on our lunch, when Madame Blavatsky said Koot Hoomi was asking where we would like to find the object he was going to send me. Up to this moment there had been no conversation in regard to the phenomenon I was expecting. The usual suggestion will, perhaps, be made that Madame Blavatsky "led up" to the choice I actually made. The fact of the matter was simply that in the midst of altogether other talk Madame Blavatsky pricked up her ears on hearing her occult voice=97at once told me what was the question asked, and did not contribute to the selection made by one single remark on the subject. In fact, there was no general discussion, and it was by an absolutely spontaneous choice of my own that I said, after a little reflection, "inside that cushion," pointing to one against which one of the ladies present was leaning. I had no sooner uttered the words than my wife cried out, "Oh no, let it be inside mine," or words to that effect. I said, "Very well, inside my wife's cushion"; Madame Blavatsky asked the Mahatma by her own methods if that would do, and received an affirmative reply. My liberty of choice as regards the place where the object should be found was thus absolute and unfettered by conditions. The most natural choice for me to have made under the circumstances, and having regard to our previous experiences, would have been up some particular tree, or buried in a particular spot of the ground; but the inside of a sewn-up cushion, fortuitously chosen on the spur of a moment, struck me, as my eye happened to fall upon the cushion I mentioned first, as a particularly good place; and when I had started the idea of a cushion, my wife's amendment to the original proposal was really an improvement, for the particular cushion then selected had never been for a moment out of her own possession all the morning. It was her usual jampan cushion; she had been leaning against it all the way from home, and leaning against it still, as her jampan had been carried right up to the top of the hill, and she had continued to occupy it. The cushion itself was very firmly made of worsted work and velvet, and had been in our possession for years. It always remained, when we were at home, in the drawing room, in a conspicuous corner of a certain sofa, whence, when my wife went out, it would be taken to her jampan and again brought in on her return. When the cushion was agreed to, my wife was told to put it under her rug, and she did this with her own hands, inside her jampan. It may have been there about a minute, when Madame Blavatsky said we could set to work to cut it open. I did this with a penknife, and it was a work of some time, as the cushion was very securely sewn all round, and very strongly, so that it had to be cut open almost stitch by stitch, and no tearing was possible. When one side of the cover was completely ripped up, we found that the feathers of the cushion were enclosed in a separate inner case, also sewn round all the edges. There was nothing to be found between the inner cushion and the outer case; so we proceeded to rip up the inner cushion; and this done, my wife searched among the feathers. The first thing she found was a little three-cornered note, addressed to me in the now familiar handwriting of my occult correspondent. It ran as follows:=20 My "Dear Brother," This brooch No. 2 is placed in this very strange place simply to show to you how very easily a real phenomenon is produced and how still easier it is to suspect its genuineness. The difficulty you spoke of last night with respect to the interchange of our letters I will try to remove. An address will be sent to you which you can always use; unless, indeed, you really would prefer corresponding through =97 PILLOWS. =97Koot' Hoomi Lal Sing. [Caps added.] While I was reading this note, my wife discovered, by further search among the feathers, the brooch referred to, one of her own, a very old and very familiar brooch which she generally left on her dressing table when it was not in use. The whole force and significance to us of the brooch thus returned, hinged onto my subjective impressions of the previous night. The reason for selecting the brooch as a thing to give us dated no earlier than then. On the hypothesis, therefore, that the cushion must have been got at by Madame Blavatsky, it must have been got at since I spoke of my impressions that morning, shortly after breakfast; but from the time of getting up that morning, Madame Blavatsky had hardly been out of our sight, and had been sitting with my wife in the drawing room. She had been doing this, by the by, against the grain, for she had writing which she wanted to do in her own room, but she had been told by her voices to go and sit in the drawing room with my wife that morning, and had done so, grumbling at the interruption of her work, and wholly unable to discern any motive for the order. The motive was afterwards clear enough, and had reference to the intended phenomenon. It was desirable that we should have no arriere pensee [after thought, mental reservation, suspicion] in our minds as to what Madame Blavatsky might possibly have been doing during the morning, in the event of the incident taking such a turn as to make that a factor in determining its genuineness. Of course, if the selection of the pillow could have been foreseen, it would have been unnecessary to victimize our "old Lady," as we generally called her. The presence of the famous pillow itself, with my wife all the morning in the drawing room, would have been enough. But perfect liberty of choice was to be left to me in selecting a cache for the brooch; and the pillow can have been in nobody's mind, any more than in my own, beforehand. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. The Occult World. London: Trubner & Co., 1881, pp. 108-113.=20 [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant has been silently deleted. The original text, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. =20 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 10:24:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:24:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 81292 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:24:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:24:41 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:24:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Curious and unexplained features of the KH letters" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4005 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In his book "H. P. Blavatsky and the SPR", Dr. Vernon Harrison writes about "curious and unexplained features of the KH letters": ------------------------------------------------ I draw attention to curious and unexplained features of the KH letters, namely the clear, regular striations of some of the writing apparently made with blue pencil (Fig. 11), the small amount of ink penetration even when thin "rice" paper was used, the unexplained features of the erasures seemingly made with ink eradicator yet without staining or roughening of the paper, the variability of some (but not all) of the characters and the (at times) grossly exaggerated t-bars. These features suggest that the documents preserved in the British Library may be copies, made by some unknown process, of originals which we do not possess. ---------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-spr/hpbspr-o.htm In elaboration on the above, Dr. Harrison writes elsewhere in his book: ---------------------------------------------- The Ink presents some problems. It has not faded in the manner of the ordinary writing inks of the period, which in the course of a century fade through brown and yellow to complete invisibility. These have remained legible and look as if they were confined to a thin layer on the surface of the paper. There is little "strike through." This is a term used by printers to denote penetration of ink through the pores of the paper to the reverse side. Victorian writing inks used to penetrate right through thin paper and make writing on the reverse side impossible (see Part 1, Figures 10a and 10b). Negotiations with the Trustees of the Letters to have these inks tested nondestructively by a university for their chemical composition led nowhere; and now that the papers have been strengthened by enclosure in archival tissue, further research on this problem may prove impossible. Blue Pencil: a knotty problem is the writing which appears to be in blue pencil or crayon. Much of this writing (but not all) has a clean, sharp, striated structure reminiscent of a mackerel sky. It looks as if it had been made by a modern, precision line scanner (see Figure 11a and Figure 11b). To me, the reason for this method of production remains a mystery. Emma Coulomb is reported to have said that the effect was made by writing with the paper resting upon bookcloth. I cannot understand why anyone should want to write with the paper resting on bookcloth; in any case, I cannot get the effect by writing in this way. The irregularities of the bookcloth and the dragging of pigment into the strips which should remain clear are immediately apparent. This remarkable feature of the writing has been ignored by most of the writers on the subject of the Mahatma Letters whom I have come across. Corrections: A further feature of the KH Letters is that corrections have been made to the text with much care. These corrections often entail the erasure of whole words, or even of whole phrases, and writing the corrections over the erasure. The erasures have not been made by rubbing with a hard rubber or by scraping with a knife, for there is no local weakening of the paper. It looks as if a chemical ink eradicator has been used; but application of liquid reagents usually disturbs the surface fibers of the paper and leaves faint stains that are hard to remove. It would be useful to know from laboratory tests whether there are traces of chemical residues in these places. If there are not, it may be that the corrections were made on originals, of which the Letters preserved in the British Library are copies. Knowing nothing of the method of transmission of these Letters, I do not know whether this suggestion is plausible. ------------------------------------------------ Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-spr/hpb-spr2.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 10:43:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:43:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 75533 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:43:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:43:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:43:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:43:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:43:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Yoga 101: A Precipitation Primer Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4629 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Since there has been so much comment about "precipitation" lately, it occurs to me it might amuse someone to say something about it. Suppose someone writes a "mahatma" letter. The stationery and the ink which is used to write on it are both composed of atoms, which are held together by a force called in the SD "cohesion." (Modern chemists might use different terminology, but everyone agrees that this force exists.) This is listed as one of the seven "occult forces" which is to say that it is one of seven ways the One Force is perceived by our sevenfold consciousness. There is only one force, in other words, but it manifests to our consciousness in seven different ways. Having written the letter, if the "mahatma" were somehow to suspend the force of cohesion, the atoms which compose it would scatter and the letter would completely disintegrate. This is quite easily done according to some but there is some question whether their method is the same as the one used by the nineteenth century mahatmas. Now whereas the letter disappears from view (even though the atoms which composed it are still present) the kama rupa of the letter still persists for a time. That this is so is usually taught and demonstrated using Kirlian photos of leaves which have been mangled by someone with a pair of scissors. In the Kirlian photo the emergy pattern of the leaf appears intact even though part of it has been cut off. There are other demonstrations of the principle which are more esoteric in character. This kama rupa, unlike the physical letter, can be sent through space at tremendous speed (assuming of course that you accept the reality of "astral projection." There is no fundamental difference between projecting the kama rupa of an object and projecting the kama rupa of a man, except that the man does not have to disintegrate.) The problem then is to attract a new set of atoms at the point of destination so that the kama rupa becomes the mold or prototype as it were of a new letter. The new letter would be identical in every way to the original and indistinguishable from it, but would not be composed of the same atoms. In one of Blavatsky's articles (this is from memory) it would appear that the kama rupa of the ink was in some cases what was used (how one would separate the kama rupa of the ink from that of the stationery itself I do not know, so pls don't ask). At the destination the amanuensis chela would then use a piece of writing paper and cause atoms of ink to scatter themselves over the paper in the correct form. This of course applies ONLY to those letters which were actually precipitated, which most of them were not. And so that is the mystery of precipitation at a very high level. How all this is done is of course much more complex and probably verboten as a public subject. In the case of the solar system, atoms scattered in space would come together to reconstitute a planet long disappeared using the preexisting kama rupa of the planet for a basis. It is similar to, but not idential to, the nebular hypothesis, in other words. The kama rupa is connected in complex ways with karma, so we are told the reappearance of the universe at the beginning of every manvantara has to do with karma. All of this is in TS literature, but explained in a deliberately obfuscated form. Anyone who wants to do so badly enough can find out how this is actually done, but it should be said that Blavatsky et al considered the actual practice (as distinguished from merely reading about it) to entail some risk to the practitioner. For that reason the techniques were guarded. Also I am not aware of anyone in modern times achieving the degree of success claimed by the mahatmas, although some have claimed lesser degrees of success with this. There is therefore no experimental proof that I am aware of (as distinguished from the stories we have inherited) that precipitation ever happened. The fact that these mahatmas had such a complex theory (the above is a mere sketch) to explain it and such a complex system of practices to achieve it makes it unlikely that they or Blavatsky were the mere vulgar charlatans that some have said. That is the main reason this subject is worth discussing. It has some historical significance as well as esoteric significance. If anyone quotes this on web sites or cross posts it anywhere or publishes it in any other form, please leave my name OFF as the originator. I don't mind seeing the words somewhere, but I do not want to see my name except on this forum. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 10:49:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:49:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 72353 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:49:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:49:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:49:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:49:29 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:49:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Statement by Tillett Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 538 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a > pathological liar." Right? As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to be a competent one. I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they would give. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 10:52:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 18:52:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 53245 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 18:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 18:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 18:52:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 18:52:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:52:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD292F8.19678151@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 332 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Depends on where you are. In the New York Lodge, Leadbeater is largely > ignored. I was under the impression that that excellent position was taken by the Pasadena TS and the ULT but that the Adyar TS considers him their prophet, seer, and revelator. Was I mistaken? From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 11:01:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:01:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 94218 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:01:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:01:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:01:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:01:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:01:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 439 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > A Mahatma Letter in a Pillow: > So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? If you have not seen it, there is a very similar story in Lane's MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS which was published before the TS was formed. So this demonstration has been performed by Egyptian maicians for some time. Blavatsky of course studied n Egypt. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 11:12:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:12:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 81763 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Does Brian/Brigitte consider HPB a "charlatan"? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 553 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, You write: "The fact that these mahatmas had such a complex theory (the above is a mere sketch) to explain it and such a complex system of practices to achieve it makes it unlikely that they or Blavatsky were the mere vulgar charlatans that some have said." Steve, I don't know what exactly is added to the word "charlatan" by affixing "mere vulgar" but your opinion appears to be contrary to Brigitte/Brian's view that Blavatsky was a charlatan. Or am I missing something here? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 11:17:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:17:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 4207 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:17:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:17:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:17:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:17:30 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:17:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Steve's opinion about the Mahatma Letter in a Pillow?? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 538 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, You wrote: "If you have not seen it, there is a very similar story in Lane's MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS which was published before the TS was formed. So this demonstration has been performed by Egyptian maicians for some time. Blavatsky of course studied n Egypt." So in light of what you write above, does that mean that you believe HPB was acting as a charlatan in the pillow incident by "palming" this letter off somehow on Sinnett? In other words, she "faked" a phenomenon? Daniel H. Caldwell From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 11:23:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 13503 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:23:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A Statement by Steve Stubbs Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 696 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I wrote: "OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB 'a pathological liar.' Right?" Steve replied: "As I have said before, I am not an anti-Theosophist. I do not, for various reasons, have much confidencve in Leadbeater, and believe Dr. Tillett's opinion, which is obviously very carefully considered, to be a competent one." "I shall have to leave the others to speak for themselves on the questions uou raise, even though I think I know what answers they would give." Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological liar? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 11:43:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:43:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 95086 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:43:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:43:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:43:37 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C3QG-0006DV-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:43:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD2A1D8.F3A5069@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:02:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Leadbeater & Blavatsky References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Depends on where you are. In the New York Lodge, Leadbeater is > largely > > ignored. > > I was under the impression that that excellent position was taken by > the Pasadena TS and the ULT but that the Adyar TS considers him their > prophet, seer, and revelator. Was I mistaken? You're mistaken, at least now. 40 years ago you would have been right, but these days, Leadbeater is respected, but by no means the last word on anything. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 11:47:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:47:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 32866 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:47:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:47:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:47:06 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C3Td-0003rS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:47:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD2AC58.1F6D3A62@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:47:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > If you have not seen it, there is a very similar story in Lane's > MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS which was published > before the TS was formed. So this demonstration has been performed > by Egyptian maicians for some time. Blavatsky of course studied n > Egypt. Among professional magicians, the Egyptian magicians are admired as the first of the great charlatans (the methods they used are well-known among magical historians). The last of the great charlatans was, of course, Count Cagliostro. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 11:52:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:52:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 29205 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:52:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:52:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:52:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Statement by Steve Stubbs Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 248 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.146 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, are you actually telling us that you believe Leadbeater was a > pathological liar but (in your opinion) HPB was NOT a pathological > liar? Let me say it again: YES. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 11:55:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 19:55:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 68900 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 19:55:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 19:55:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 19:55:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 19:55:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:55:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Steve's opinion about the Mahatma Letter in a Pillow?? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 528 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.146 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > So in light of what you write above, does that mean that you believe > HPB was acting as a charlatan in the pillow incident by "palming" > this letter off somehow on Sinnett? In other words, she "faked" a > phenomenon? Lane did not represent this demo as a trick to my recollection. What I said is: (1) you are interested in history (2) there is a similar story in Lane's book which you might find interesting, and (3) Blavatsky studied in Egypt. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 12:06:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:06:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 1854 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:06:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:06:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:06:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 20:06:13 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:06:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Does Brian/Brigitte consider HPB a "charlatan"? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1112 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.146 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, I don't know what exactly is added to the word "charlatan" by > affixing "mere vulgar" but your opinion appears to be contrary to > Brigitte/Brian's view that Blavatsky was a charlatan. There are numerous characters who were mere vulgar charlatans, some of whom are alive today, and their stuff contains very little intellectual content, since their aim was not to study anything but to gull people. So we have plenty of examples available for consideration of what charlatans produce. If you look at the theory of materialization in the SD and see how elegant it is, and if you look at the complex system of practices which were developed to demo this phenomenon, and thereby "prove" the validity of the principles (in the minds of the mahatmas) it is impossible in my mind to continue with the theory that these people were in the same class as the aforementioned charlatans. Yes, I think the words "mere" and "vulgar" both meaningfully modify the word "charlatan," and, no, I do not believe HPB was a charlanan. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 12:13:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:13:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 84524 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:13:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:13:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:13:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 20:13:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:13:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Great charlatans = Egyptian magicians = Count Cagliostro = H.P. Blavatsky ?? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD2AC58.1F6D3A62@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 764 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve Stubbs wrote: "If you have not seen it, there is a very similar story in Lane's MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS which was published before the TS was formed. So this demonstration has been performed by Egyptian maicians for some time. Blavatsky of course studied n Egypt." Bart Lidofsky wrote: "Among professional magicians, the Egyptian magicians are admired as the first of the great charlatans (the methods they used are well- known among magical historians). The last of the great charlatans was, of course, Count Cagliostro." So do we end up with the following? Great charlatans=Egyptian magicians=Count Cagliostro=H.P. Blavatsky Brian/Brigitte would probably say YES! :) Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 12:19:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:19:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 92418 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:19:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:19:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:19:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 20:19:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:19:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD2AC58.1F6D3A62@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1512 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.146 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > The last of the great charlatans was, of > course, Count Cagliostro. Actually, Caglostro was not a charlatan. There is not a single recorded instance of him getting a single sous from anyone by means of imposture, and his experiments, such as having child clairvoyants see visions in a bowl of water, have been successfully repeated since his time. He was extremely careless to go to Rome and loudly proclaim himself to be a Free Mason knowing that the catholic church routinely murdered Free Masons, but his confession is not entirely trustworthy. If the not-so-holy Inquisition were to streap you to a rack and start pulling your fingernails out, you would probably agree to being Joseph Balsamo, too. Or anything else they wanted to hear. It is notable that the church hierarchy was terrified of him and had him removed from The Castle of the Holy Angel and incarcerated in a hole in a mountain away from Rome, lest he bring down the wrath of the seven archangels on his majesty the pope and all the pedophiles and scoundrels who manned the vatican. All of this has been well documented. The last great Egyptian magician was Zergvan Bey (I believe that is the right name), who was actually Egyptian, which Cagliostro was not. There is no reason to believe he was a charlatan, though some critics have suggested he possessed extraordinary courage in allowing himself to be buried alive, but probably not occult powers. From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 12:25:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:24:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 3431 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:24:59 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C44I-0001MR-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:24:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD2B53A.198DC18B@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:25:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Great charlatans = Egyptian magicians = Count Cagliostro = H.P. Blavatsky ?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > "If you have not seen it, there is a very similar story in Lane's > MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE MODERN EGYPTIANS which was published > before the TS was formed. So this demonstration has been performed by > Egyptian maicians for some time. Blavatsky of course studied n Egypt." > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > "Among professional magicians, the Egyptian magicians are admired as > the first of the great charlatans (the methods they used are well- > known among magical historians). The last of the great charlatans > was, of course, Count Cagliostro." > > So do we end up with the following? > > Great charlatans=Egyptian magicians=Count Cagliostro=H.P. Blavatsky > > Brian/Brigitte would probably say YES! :) Well, I consider the use of phenomenology to attract followers, real or faked, to be more or less equivalent. Jesus was right to say "no" to Satan in the desert. I DO however, differentiate between phenomenology used just to get people's attention to be different from the use of phenomenology to "prove" one's spiritual advancement, especially if part of the message is, "If you're following me for my tricks, then don't bother." I think that H.P.B.'s slowly increasing stance against phenomenology during her later career was due to her realization of this. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 13 12:29:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:29:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 8680 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:29:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:29:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:29:35 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C48l-0001Dv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:29:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD2B64F.EF662DF6@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:30:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Actually, Caglostro was not a charlatan. There is not a single > recorded instance of him getting a single sous from anyone by means > of imposture, He didn't need it. He got invited to the courts of Europe, and got everything he needed from them. Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 12:35:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 68856 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:35:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bart: "I will check with my source." Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 398 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bart, In regards to the point made in my posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8408 you wrote: "I will check with my source." Have you checked with your source? I assume that you were basing your original statement on what some one told you rather than on what you had read, for example, in Hodgson's Report?? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 13 13:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 21:28:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 76976 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 21:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 21:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 21:28:01 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.123.19c0c962 (30960) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:27:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <123.19c0c962.2b041dd9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:27:53 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Very gratifying to hear about your interest in the scientific basis of theosophy and how close (but not yet touching) physics is to understanding the true nature of reality... Which, as I see it, goes far beyond the limited realm of conventional quantum physics that considers only the physical aspects of material substance, and has, until quite recently (except for a few promethians) ignored its spiritual or consciousness aspects. As you may gather, I am critical of the separation that occurs in science between the relativists, the quantalists, and the String/M-brane theorists that not only contradict each other but also ignore the all inclusive a-priori role that transcendental consciousness plays in the overall genesis of material fields and forms. However, there are some physicists who recognize these disparities and have tried to bring them together in a synthetic theory -- such the Holographic Paradigm of A. T. Williams, based on the following statement (that is not far from my ABC theory or the met aphysics of HPB): ". . . unconditioned, omnipresent subquantum hyperenergy and hyperinformation is the irreducible, all-inclusive ground of being within which all conditionally relative nonmaterial and material phenomena manifest." This also blends in with the theories of Bernard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda & H. E. Puthoff pertaining to the high energy, faster than light, zero-point energy fields (ZPE) -- as well as merging the holographic universe ideas put forward by Carl Pribam, David Bohm and others. It's too bad that the physicists working on finding the Higgs particle have had little success so far. However, I have a suspicion that such a particle is a figment of their imagination, and simply represents the missing energy/mass equivalents that are tied up in the invisible and non metric ZPE hyperspace (or my ABC) fields that, apparently, may also be equivalent to the proposed (if not imaginary) "dark matter" and "cosmological constants" of relativity and quantum theories -- that attempts to bring them into alignment. For a little more on these contrary ideas, check out http://www.calphysics.org/haisch/sciences.html http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/holopara.htm http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html As for the science forums, see: http://www.imprint.co.uk/online_index.html http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/psychefaq.html#psyche-d http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/quantum-mind.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MindBrain/ Best wishes, LHM In a message dated 11/12/02 6:31:13 PM, netemara888@yahoo.com writes: >Thanks for the info Leon. I was supposed to be on a similar forum >that was formed after a group of physicists and teachers spent some >time on physics' projects "quarknet" at Notre Dame this summer. On my >wall in this room I have a picture of "The Standard Model" which is >based on the 8, the noble path of the Buddha. I have had discussions >with physicists who work in conjunction with the accelarator at >Fermi Labs which I visited for the first time this summer. I am >hoping to go to CERN and spend some time there in Geneva and Europe. >But that's funny you posit HPB's words/work with these physicists and >now I am talking to some of these same guys in person. > >The group I worked with here was involved in that huge find where >about 100 physicists are on the cover of TIME and there was some >catchy title about how many physicists does it take to discover >something. I forgot it, but I wrote a great deal about them in my >manuscript. No one understands what I am doing except those who are >both sides of the fence. My favorite T has the Feynmann diagram on >it. > >I love physics. It is so spiritual. I have been following the >progress of the GUT also for the last 30 years. I used to go to >lectures by nobel physicists at the U. of Chicago and I understood >every word of it, before I ever took a physics course. That's why I >know there is a connection between meditation, the experiences of >meditation and the holy grail of final particles. Which may be never >ending. But if I get any emails regarding progress of the Higgs I >will send them along, and if you get any please share them. > >What is the forum list? > >Netemara > From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 15:41:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 23:41:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 44380 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 23:41:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 23:41:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 23:41:18 -0000 Received: from pool0175.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.175] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C781-0004L8-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:41:01 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE:: A Precipitation Primer Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:36:57 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2002 On Precipitation of Letters, etc... The following is the best answer I have so far secured. ------------------------ PRECIPITATION In Theosophical, as in spiritualistic or mediumistic circles the question of the precipitation of messages has received attention. Curiosity and a desire to learn how to emulate the process has attracted the attention of many. That some force or being is able to influence conditions so that a "message" is precipitated -- in one way or another is an undeniable fact. The next question is of process and rationale, and the third relates to the authenticity and value of any such message. Early in 1997, The Theosophical University Press published a monograph by Dr. Vernon Harrison. There is described and illustrated from the originals, the strangest feature of the precipitation of some letters, said to be from the Mahatmas, which has come to light. Examination of some letters at high magnification clearly shows that what appears to the unaided eye as a continuous line, forming several letters, words, -- a letter; is in fact a close series of very fine lines each separated from the other by a white space. This series of small lines have been shaped into an apparently continuous sweep of what appears to the unaided eye (as we see it) a continuous line. It is as though the original had been photographed with an apparatus that used a diffraction grating, and the resulting interference pattern into which the lines and letters had been transformed, had been then transferred (precipitated ?) on to the final paper that was sent to the recipient. In some cases this printing is found lying on the surface of the paper, in others it appears to be embodied in the substrate, so as to form a portion of the paper, and is an integral part of it. Needless to say that at the time of such precipitation (in the period between 1880 and 1885) no technology existed in the West that could produce such an effect. In fact it would be difficult to achieve a similar effect, using the modern technologies of today. Since "precipitation" of letters said to be from the Mahatmas, or other sources, became one of the forms of entertainment by and among Spiritualists and early Theosophists the Master K.H. found it necessary to declare that all actual messages from Them would be preceded by a sentence. He wrote Mr. Sinnett on 23-11-82: "PS.--It my so happen that for purposes of our own, mediums and their spooks will be left undisturbed and free not only to personate the "Brothers" but even to forge our handwriting. Bear this in mind and be prepared for it in London. Unless the message or communication or whatever it may be is preceded by the triple words: " Kin-t-an, Na-lan-da, Dha-ra-ni." Know it is not me, nor from me. KH " Mahatma Letters p. 419 Mahatma K.H. precipitated a letter to Col. H.S.Olcott on the high seas, on board the steamer S. S. Shannon, which reads in part: "Make all these men feel that we have no favourites, nor affections for persons, but only for their good acts and humanity as a whole. But we employ agents--the best available. Of these, for the past thirty years, the chief has been the personality known as H.P.B. to the world (but otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some; nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come, and your theosophists should be made to understand it. Since 1885 I have not written nor caused to be written save through her agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists should learn it. You will understand later the significance of this declaration, so keep it in mind. Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother Associates will desert or supplant her. As I before remarked, ingratitude is not among our vices...But this you must tell to all:--with occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her. She is not given over to chelas. She is our direct agent. I warn you against permitting your suspicions and resentment against her "many follies" to bias your intuitive loyalty to her..." Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, 1st Series (1919), p. 52-3 [see also: ML 368 10 203 35 263 Isis II 92-3 FP 34 150] "Through the means of the Astral Light and the help of Elementals the various material elements may be drawn down and precipitated from the atmosphere upon either a plane surface or in the form of a solid object; this precipitation may be made permanent, or it may be of such a light cohesive power as soon to fade away. But this help of the elementals can only be obtained by a strong will added to a complete knowledge of the laws which govern the being of the elementals." Epitome, p. 20 "...an Initiate...is able to precipitate out of the viewless air the carbon which we know is in it, forming the carbon into sentences upon the paper, it is through this knowledge of the occult higher chemistry, and the use of a trained and powerful image-making faculty which every man possesses..." Ocean, p. 12 "Power over mind, matter, space, and time depends on several things and positions. Needed for this are: Imagination raised to its highest limit, desire combined with will that wavers not, and a knowledge of the occult chemistry of nature. All must be present or there is no result." WQJ Articles I. 453 "The instruments are in the body and brain of man. In the view of the Lodge, "the human brain is an exhaustless generator of force," and a complete knowledge of the inner chemical and dynamic laws of nature, together with a trained mind, give the possessor the power to operate the laws to which I have referred. This will be man's possession in the future...A knowledge of the law when added to faith gives power over matter, mind, space, and time...the trained Adept can produce before the eye, objective to the touch, material which was not visible before, and in any desired shape...it is simply evolution in your very presence. Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The object so made will fade away unless certain other processes are resorted to which need not be here described, but if these processes are used the object will remain permanently. And if it is desired to make visible a message on paper or other surface, the same laws and power are used. The distinct--photographically and sharply definite--image of every line of every letter or picture is formed in the mind, and then out of the air is drawn the pigment to fall within the limits laid down by the brain, "the exhaustless generator of force and form." This, then, naturally leads to the proposition that the human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind. In the ordinary average human person it has not enough training or force to be more than a sort of dream, but it may be trained. When it is trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop. Arrived at that stage it makes a matrix in the Astral substance through which effects objectively will flow. It is the greatest power, after Will, in the assemblage of complicated instruments. The modern definition of Imagination is incomplete and wide of the mark. It is chiefly used to designate fancy or misconception and at all times stands for unreality. It is impossible to get another term as good because one of the powers of the trained Imagination is that of making an image. The word is derived from those signifying the formation or reflection of an image. This faculty used, or rather suffered to act, in an unregulated mode has given the West no other idea than that covered by "fancy."...it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached, causes the Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form which may then be used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold or sand for the molten iron. It is therefore the King faculty, inasmuch as the Will cannot do its work if the Imagination be at all weak or untrained. For instance, if the person desiring to precipitate from the air wavers in the least with the image made in the Astral substance, the pigment will fall upon the paper in a correspondingly wavering and diffused manner." Ocean pp. 138-9 Authentication "What criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another...Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as their amanuenses (the chelas and disciples), can tell ? [ see M L p. 460 ] For it is hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever written by the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and that when a Master says, "I wrote that letter," it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision. Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture-making process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted and the writing-model initiated. Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of uncertainty, whether, if one letter is false, all may not be; for, as far as intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and all are brought by the same mysterious means. But there is another, and a far worse condition implied. For all that the recipient of "occult" letters can possibly know, and on the simple grounds of probability and common honesty, the unseen correspondent who would tolerate one single fraudulent line in his name, would wink at an unlimited repetition of the deception. And this leads directly to the following. All the so-called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they have all to stand of fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all have, and the series of letters in the "Occult World," "Esoteric Buddhism," etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they should not be in such case--frauds, "clever impostures," and "forgeries," [ see M L, pp. 307, 410, 414, 419-424, 431 ] such as the ingenuous though stupid agent of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to raise in the public estimation the "scientific" acumen and standard of his "Principals." HPB--"Lodges of Magic" HPB Art. I. p. 291-2 "I must give you some explanation of this mode of precipitation...The image of the geometrical or other figure which the active brain has impressed upon it, is gradually imprinted upon the recipient brain...Two factors are needed to produce a perfect and instantaneous mental telegraphy--close concentration of the operator, and complete receptive passivity in the "reader" subject...The "reader" does not see the image as in the "telegrapher's" brain, but as arising in his own. In a case such as mine, the chela had...to pick up what he could from the current I was sending him, and...patch the broken bits together as best he might...if the mental picture received be feeble his visible reproduction of it must correspond. And the more so in proportion to the closeness of attention he gives. He might...be employed by his "Master" as a sort of psychic printing machine producing lithographed or psyhographed impressions of what the operator had in mind; his nervous-system, the machine, his nerve-aura the printing fluid, the colours drawn from that exhaustless store-house of pigments...the Akasa. But the medium and the chela are diametrically dissimilar and the latter acts consciously, except under exceptional circumstances during development..." Mahatma Letters p. 423-4 Can the Personal Self decide on Authenticity ? "You and the Theosophists have come to the conclusion that in every case where a message was found couched in words or sentiments unworthy of Mahatmas it was produced either by elementals or my own falsification. [ see M L p. 307, 419, 422, 431, 460 ] Believing the latter, no honest man or woman ought for one moment to permit me, such a fraud, to remain any longer in the Society...to kick me out--if you really think so. [do you] credit the idea that They [the Masters] should permit or even know of it and still use me ! Why, if They are the exalted beings you rightly suppose Them to be, how could They permit or tolerate for one moment such a deception and fraud?...little you do know the occult laws I see...Before you volunteer to serve the Masters you should learn Their philosophy, for otherwise you shall always sin grievously, though unconsciously and involuntarily, against Them and those who serve Them, soul and body and spirit." HPB ART II 509-510 [ see also: HPB Art II 509-513.] "The outer senses cannot give a safe final judgment upon a precipitated message, they can only settle such physical questions as how it came, through whom, the credibility of the person, and whether any deception on the objective plane has been practiced. The inner senses, including the great combining faculty or power of intuition, are the final judges...if one hitherto supposed to be in communication with the White Adepts comes to us and says "Here is a message from one of Those," then if we have not independent power in ourselves of deciding the question on inner knowledge, the next step is either to believe the report or disbelieve it...[HPB] put it tersely in this way" "If you think no Mahatma wrote the theories I have given of man and nature and if you do not believe my report, then you have to conclude that I did it all." The latter conclusion would lead to the position that her acts, phenomena, and writings put her in the position usually accorded by us to a Mahatma. As to the letters or messages of a personal nature, each one had and has to decide for himself whether or not to follow the advice given..." WQJ ARTICLES I pp. 450-1 Process described by Master Mr. Sinnett sought for an explanation of the process and elicited from the revered Mahatma: "....Bear in mind these letters are not written but impressed, or precipitated, and then all mistakes corrected...[ M L p. 19 ] I have to think it over, to photograph every word and sentence carefully in my brain before it can be repeated by precipitation. As the fixing upon chemically prepared surfaces of the images formed by the camera requires a previous arrangement within the focus of the object to be represented, for, otherwise--as often found in bad photographs--the legs of the sitter might appear out of all proportion with the head, and so on--some have to first arrange our sentences and impress every letter to appear on paper in our minds before it becomes fit to be read..." M L p. 22 "Those having a superficial knowledge of the science of mesmerism know how the thoughts of the mesmerizer, though silently formulated in his mind are instantly transferred to that of the subject. It is not necessary for the operator...to be present near the subject to produce the above result...The work of writing the letters in question is carried on by a sort of psychological telegraphy; the Mahatmas very rarely write their letters in the ordinary way. [see M L p. 460 ] An electromagnetic connection, so to say, exists on the psychological plane between a Mahatma and his chelas, one of whom acts as his amanuensis. [ see M L p. 480 ] When a Master wants a letter to be written in this way, he draws the attention of the chela, whom he selects for the task...The thoughts arising in the mind of the Mahatma are then clothed in word, pronounced mentally, and forced along the astral currents he sends towards the pupil to impinge on the brain of the latter. Thence they are borne by the nerve-currents to the palms of his hands and the tips of his fingers, which rest on a piece of magnetically prepared paper. As the thought-waves are thus impressed on the tissue, materials are drawn to it from the ocean of akas, (permeating every atom of the sensuous universe) by an occult process...and permanent marks are left....the success of such writing...depends chiefly upon these things: (1) The force and the clearness with which the thoughts are propelled, and (2) the freedom of the receiving brain from disturbance of every description...To turn to the sources of error in the precipitation. Remembering the circumstances under which blunders arise in telegrams, we see that if a Mahatma somehow becomes exhausted [ see M L p. 422 ] or allows his thoughts to wander off during the process, or fails to command the requisite intensity in the astral currents along which his thoughts are projected, or the distracted attention of the pupil produces disturbances [see M L p. 423 ] in his brain and nerve-centers, the success of the process is very much interfered with." H.P.Blavatsky -- "Precipitation" H P B Articles II 505-7 [ see also: ML pp. 420-427 - on composition, and precipitation ] Master often orders His Chelas to Precipitate His Ideas "If you think Master is going to be always precipitating things, you mistake. He can do it. But most of the precipitations are by chelas...I see His orders, and the thoughts and words He wishes used, and I precipitate them in that form; so does--- and one or two more." "...Anything you write is in your handwriting, but it is not your personal handwriting, generally used and first learned if you adopt some form...Masters' handwritings, peculiar to Themselves, are foreign both as to sound and form--Indian sorts, in fact. So They adopted a form in English, and in that form I precipitate Their messages at Their dictation...The message has to be seen in the astral light in facsimile, and through that astral matrix, I precipitate the whole of it. It's different, though, if Master sends me the paper and the message already done. That's why I call these things 'psychological tricks.' The sign of an objective wonder seemed to be required, although a moment's thought will show it is not proof of anything but occult ability...But blessed is the one who wants no sign...Can't you use your brain and intuition? ...with the known facts and the theories given..." WQJ ART I p, 418-9 "While precipitations phenomenally by the use of occult power and in a way unknown to science are possible and have occurred, that is not the means employed by the White Adepts in communicating with those thus favored. They have disciples with whom communication is already established and carried on, most generally through the inner ear and eye, but sometimes through the prosaic mail. In these cases no one else is involved and no one else has the right to put questions. The disciple reserves his communications for the guidance of his own action, unless he or she is directed to tell another. To spread broadcast a mass of written communications among those who are willing to accept them without knowing how to judge would be the sheerest folly, only productive of superstition and blind credulity. This is not the aim of the Adepts nor the method they pursue." WQJ ARTICLES I p. 452 Considerations on Types of Precipitation "Is it possible to precipitate by will-power and use of occult laws upon a surface of wood, paper, metal, stone, or glass a mass of substance in lines or letters or other combinations so as to produce an intelligible picture or a legible message ?...for the Adept it is possible, has been done, and will be still performed...The Adept...knows how such a precipitation can be done, what materials may be used, where those materials are obtainable, how they can be drawn out of the air, and what general and specific laws must be taken into account...The following is laid down by some masters of this art as proper to be kept in mind. (a) A precipitated picture or message may be on any sort of paper. (b) It may be in black or any other pigment. (c) It may be in carbon, chalk, ink, paint, or other fluid or substance. (d) It may be on any sort of surface or any kind of material. (e) It may be incorporated in the fiber of the paper and thus be ineffaceable, or lie upon the surface and be easily eradicated. (f) It may come through the air as a finished message on paper or otherwise, or it may be precipitated at once at the place of reception on any kind of substance and in any sort of place. (g) It is not necessarily in the handwriting of the Adept, and may be in the hand comprehended by the recipient and a language foreign to the Adept, or it may be in the actual hand of the Adept, or lastly in a cipher known to a few and not decipherable by any one without its key. (h) As matter of act the majority of the messages precipitated or sent by Adepts in the history of the T S have been in certain forms of English writing not the usual writing of those Adepts, but adopted for use in the Theosophical movement because of a fore-knowledge that the principal language of that movement would for some time be the English. Some messages have been written and precipitated in Hindi or Urdu, some in Hindustani, and some in a cipher perfectly unintelligible to all but a few persons...the adepts referred to--and not including silent ones of European birth--are Asiatics whose languages are two different Indian ones; hence their usual handwriting is not English and not Roman in the letters. Secondly, it is a fact long suspected and to many well known both in and out of the T S that the Fraternity of Adepts has a cipher [ see The Vahan, Vol. II, p. 1, Col. 1, Sec. 1891 on codes used in Hindu scriptures ] which they employ for many of their communications; that, being universal, is not their handwriting. Thirdly, in order to send any one a precipitated message in English it is not necessary for the Adept to know the language; if you know it, that is enough; for, putting the thought in your brain, he sees it there as your language in your brain, and using that model causes the message to appear. But if he is acquainted with the language you use, it is all the easier for the Adept (448) to give you the message exactly as he forms it in his brain at first... How is it all done, what is the process, what are the standards of judgment, of criticism, and of proof to the outer sense, is imposition possible, and, if so, how may it be prevented ? As to the last, the element of faith or confidence can never be omitted until one has gotten to a stage where within oneself the true standard and power of judging are developed. Just as forgery may be done on this physical plane, so also may it be done on the other and unseen planes and its results shown on this. Ill-disposed souls may work spiritual wickedness, and ignorant living persons may furnish idle, insincere, and lying models for not only ill-disposed souls that are out of the body, but also for mere sprites that are forces in nature of considerable power but devoid of conscience and mind. But this furnishes some protection...In those cases some good things have come, but they are never beyond the best thoughts of the persons... Any form of writing once written on earth is imprinted in the astral light and remains there as model. And if it has been used much, it is all the more deeply imprinted. Hence the fact that H.P.Blavatsky, who once was the means for messages coming from the living Adepts, is dead and gone is not a reason why the same writing should not be used again. It was so used in letters to Mr. Sinnett from which Esoteric Buddhism was written and in many other letters from the same (449) source that its model or matrix is deeply cut in the astral light. For it would be folly and waste of time for the Adepts to make new models every time any one died. They would naturally use the old model. There is no special sanctity in the particular model used by them, and any good clairvoyant can find that matrix in the astral light. Hence from this, if true, two things follow: (a) that new communications need not be in a new style of writing, and (b) there is a danger that persons who seek either clairvoyants or mesmerized lucides may be imposed on and made to think they have messages from the Adepts, when in fact they have only imitations. The safeguard therein is that, if these new messages are not in accordance with old ones known to be from their first appointed channel, they are not genuine in their source, however phenomenally made. Of course for the person who has the power inside to see for himself, the safeguard is different and more certain. This position accords with occult philosophy , it has been stated by the Adepts themselves, it is supported by the facts of psychic investigation inside Spiritualism, of Theosophy, of human life." WQJ "Occult Arts--Precipitation", Articles I, pp. 445-9 Law Rules all Precipitations "There is no exemption from law in favor of the Adepts, and the images they make or cause to be made in astral ether remain as the property of the race; indeed in their case, as they have a sharp and vivid power of engraving, so to say, in the astral light, all the images made there by them are deeper (450) and more long lasting than those cut by the ordinary and weak thoughts and acts of our undeveloped humanity. The best rule for those who happen to think that they are in communication with Adepts through written messages is to avoid those that contradict what the Adepts have said before; that give the lie to their system of philosophy; that, as has happened, pretend that H.P.B. was mistaken in her life for what she said and is now sorry. All such, whether done with intention or without it, are merely bombians in vacuo, sound that has no significance, a confusion of between words and knowledge delusive and vain altogether...This leads to the proposition that : Precipitation of a message is not per se evidence that it is from one of our White Adepts of the Great Lodge." WQJ ART. I p. 449-50 Masters' Letters -- Genuineness In The Path for July 1895, Mr. Judge published an article: "H.P.B. on Messages from Masters." [Reprinted in WQJ Articles, Vol. I, p. 55] "Some years ago H.P.B. was charged [ by A.P.Sinnett ] with misuse of Mahatmas' names and handwritings, with forgery of messages from the Mahatmas, and with humbugging the public and the T.S. therewith. Those charges had floated vaguely about for sometime...afterwards, writing on the subject in "Lodges of Magic" [ HPB Articles 1, p. 291 ] in Lucifer [ Vol. 3, p. 92-3 ] the question of genuineness or the opposite of such messages was dealt with, and what she wrote is here presented for reconsideration. It covers two matters. First, it proves out of her own mouth what the Path not long ago said that "if one letter has to be doubted then all have" to be doubted. Hence if the Letter to some Brahmins ["Prayag Letter" -- Mahatma Letters, p. 461-3 --] is a fraud, as Col. Olcott and another say, then all the rest are, also. Second, it applies precisely to the present state of affairs in respect to messages from Masters, just as if she had so long ago foreseen the present and left the article so that tyros in occultism, such as the present agitators are, might have something to show them how to use their judgment. The portion selected from her article reads: We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be free to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem from their contents and style, to be imitations. This is equivalent of saying that he had such an unerring spiritual insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though he has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test his alleged communications. The inevitable consequence of applying his untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make his as likely as not to declare false what was genuine and genuine what was false. Thus what criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another such letter? Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as their amanuenses (the chelas and disciples) can tell? For if hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever written in the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and when a Master says: "I wrote that letter" it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision. Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture printing process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted and the writing-model imitated. Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of uncertainty, whether if one letter is false all may not be, for as far as intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and all are brought by the same mysterious means. But there is another and far worse condition implied. All the so-called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they have all to stand or fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all have, and the series of letters in the Occult World, Esoteric Buddhism, etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they should not be in such a case,--frauds, "clever impostures," and "forgeries" such as the ingenuous though stupid agent of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to raise in the public estimation the scientific acumen and standard of his "Principals"... [H.P.B.] WQJ Articles I 55 ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Steve S Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:44 AM To: Subject:: A Precipitation Primer Since there has been so much comment about "precipitation" lately, it occurs to me it might amuse someone to say something about it. Suppose someone writes a "mahatma" letter. The stationery and the ink which is used to write on it are both composed of atoms, which are held together by a force called in the SD "cohesion." (Modern chemists might use different terminology, but everyone agrees that this force exists.) This is listed as one of the seven "occult forces" which is to say that it is one of seven ways the One Force is perceived by our sevenfold consciousness. There is only one force, in other words, but it manifests to our consciousness in seven different ways. CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 15:42:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 13 Nov 2002 23:42:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 16709 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 23:41:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2002 23:41:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2002 23:41:59 -0000 Received: from pool0175.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.175] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C78n-0004L8-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:41:50 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: More on Avalokiteswara Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:37:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2002 Dear Friends: As I read it, Theosophy teaches that there is ONE CONSCIOUSNESS in every human Being and this originates in the MONAD. ( Atma-Buddhi or in terms of their definitions they are Purity and WISDOM. In each principle the One Consciousness manifests various powers peculiar to that plane and the internal "Principle" related to it.. All are however carefully interconnected, so as to form a viable whole Man. Spirit (or Atma) represents the ABSOLUTE in manifestation. Buddhi (or WISDOM) represents the accumulated experience of all the many lives lived. It has the capacity to warn, because it has witnessed many failures and successes. It may be called the power of discrimination. But these two are remote (so to say) from material existence and embodiment. Or, the material man, which is the vehicle of the INDIVIDUALITY when it reincarnates. It has been called the PERSONALITY (the "mask") because of its ephemeral, transitory nature. A bridge is needed, of intelligence and understanding. Mind provides this, and with Atma and Buddhi forms the INDIVIDUALITY -- which is the Real, the Eternal Man. This has been called HIGHER MANAS, or the power of Moral and Ethical thinking and acting. INDIVIDUALITY: SPIRIT -- WISDOM -- MIND PERSONALITY: KAMA -- LIFE ENERGY -- ASTRAL -- PHYSICAL bodies. More interesting is the concept that as a result of the evolution of the material and passional, desire nature, there is generated a sensitivity to the Mind and other powers of thinking, and inquiring into purposes and causes. This has been called LOWER MANAS, or the conjoined principles of Manas and Kama. The gap between the Kama (desires passions and emotions) and the Buddhi (wisdom of experience) principles bridged by the mind creates this duality in the mind principle. 1. The WISE and DISCRIMINATING impersonal MIND, and 2. the ignorant, impulsive, foolish and selfish Mind of the embodied man. This causes (in our personality and using the Lower Mind) most of our perplexity and doubt of law operating in man ( making him a responsible being) when he chooses his actions. Interestingly enough, H P B in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE ( pp 59 - 79 ) deals with the communications between Higher and Lower Manas in this way: In the section on "dreams" we find =---------------- Q. What are the "principles" which are active during dreams? A. The "principles" active during ordinary dreams -- which ought to be distinguished from real dreams, and called idle visions -- are Kama, the seat of the personal Ego and of desire awakened into chaotic activity by the slumbering reminiscences of the lower Manas. Q. What is the "lower Manas"? A. It is usually called the animal soul (the Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalists). It is the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent Ego, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind -- in animals instinct, for animals also dream. The combined action of Kama and the "animal soul," however, are purely mechanical. It is instinct, not reason, which is active in them. During the sleep of the body they receive and send out mechanically electric shocks to and from various nerve-centers. The brain is hardly impressed by them, and memory stores them, of course, without order or sequence. On waking these impressions gradually fade out, as does every fleeting shadow that has no basic or substantial reality underlying it. The retentive faculty of the brain, however, may register and preserve them if they are only impressed strongly enough. But, as a rule, our memory registers only the fugitive and distorted impressions which the brain receives at the moment of awakening. This aspect of "dreams" however, has been sufficiently observed and is described correctly enough in modern physiological and biological works, as such human dreams do not differ much from those of the animals. That which is entirely terra incognita for Science is the real dreams and experiences of the higher EGO, which are also called dreams, but ought not to be so termed, or else the term for the other sleeping "visions" changed. Q. How do these differ? A. The nature and functions of real dreams cannot be understood unless we admit the existence of an immortal Ego in mortal man, independent of the physical body, for the subject becomes quite unintelligible unless we believe -- that which is a fact -- that during sleep there remains only an animated form of clay, whose powers of independent thinking are utterly paralyzed. But if we admit the existence of a higher or permanent Ego in us -- which Ego must not be confused with what we call the "Higher Self," [ATMA] we can comprehend that what we often regard as dreams, generally accepted as idle fancies, are, in truth, stray pages torn out from the life and experiences of the inner man, and the dim recollection of which at the moment of awakening becomes more or less distorted by our physical memory. The latter catches mechanically a few impressions of the thoughts, facts witnessed, and deeds performed by the inner man during its hours of complete freedom. For our Ego lives its own separate life within its prison of clay whenever it becomes free from the trammels of matter, i.e., during the sleep of the physical man. This Ego it is which is the actor, the real man, the true human self. But the physical man cannot feel or be conscious during dreams; for the personality, the outer man, with its brain and thinking apparatus, are paralyzed more or less completely. We might well compare the real Ego to a prisoner, and the physical personality to the gaoler of his prison. If the gaoler falls asleep, the prisoner escapes, or, at least, passes outside the walls of his prison. The gaoler is half asleep, and looks nodding all the time out of a window, through which he can catch only occasional glimpses of his prisoner, as he would a kind of shadow moving in front of it. But what can he perceive, and what can he know of the real actions, and especially the thoughts, of his charge? Q. Do not the thoughts of the one impress themselves upon the other? A. Not during sleep, at all events; for the real Ego does not think as his evanescent and temporary personality does. During the waking hours the thoughts and Voice of the Higher Ego do, or do not, reach his gaoler -- the physical man, for they are the VOICE OF HIS CONSCIENCE, but during his sleep they are absolutely the "Voice in the desert." In the thoughts of the real man, or the immortal "Individuality," the pictures and visions of the Past and Future are as the Present; nor are his thoughts like ours, subjective pictures in our cerebration, but living acts and deeds, present actualities. They are realities, even as they were when speech expressed in sounds did not exist; when thoughts were things, and men did not need to express them in speeches; for they instantly realized themselves in action by the power of Kriya-Sakti, that mysterious power which transforms instantaneously ideas into visible forms, and these were as objective to the "man" of the early third Race as objects of sight are now to us. Q. How, then, does Esoteric Philosophy account for the transmission of even a few fragments of those thoughts of the Ego to our physical memory which it sometimes retains? A. All such are reflected on the brain of the sleeper, like outside shadows on the canvas walls of a tent, which the occupier sees as he wakes. Then the man thinks that he has dreamed all that, and feels as though he had lived through something, while in reality it is the thought-actions of the true Ego which he has dimly perceived. As he becomes fully awake, his recollections become with every minute more distorted, and mingle with the images projected from the physical brain, under the action of the stimulus which causes the sleeper to awaken. These recollections, by the power of association, set in motion various trains of ideas. Q. It is difficult to see how the Ego can be acting during the night things which have taken place long ago. Was it not stated that dreams are not subjective? A. How can they be subjective when the dream state is itself for us, and on our plane, at any rate, a subjective one? To the dreamer (the Ego), on his own plane, the things on that plane are as objective to him as our acts are to us. Q. What are the senses which act in dreams? A. The senses of the sleeper receive occasional shocks, and are awakened into mechanical action; what he hears and sees are, as has been said, a distorted reflection of the thoughts of the Ego. The latter is highly spiritual, and is linked very closely with the higher principles, Buddhi and Atma. These higher principles are entirely inactive on our plane, and the higher Ego (Higher Manas) itself is more or less dormant during the waking of the physical man. This is especially the case with persons of very materialistic mind. So dormant are the Spiritual faculties, because the Ego is so trammelled by matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to the man's actions, even should the latter commit sins for which that Ego -- when reunited with its lower Manas -- will have to suffer conjointly in the future. It is, as I said, the impressions projected into the physical man by this Ego which constitute what we call "conscience"; and in proportion as the Personality, the lower Soul (or Lower Manas), unites itself to its higher consciousness, or EGO, does the action of the latter upon the life of mortal man become more marked. Q. This Ego, then, is the "Higher Ego"? A. Yes; it is the higher Manas illuminated by Buddhi; the principle of self-consciousness, the "I-am-I," in short. It is the Karana-Sarira, the immortal man, which passes from one incarnation to another. Q. Is the "register" or "tablet of memory" for the true dream-state different from that of waking life? A. Since dreams are in reality the actions of the Ego during physical sleep, they are, of course, recorded on their own plane and produce their appropriate effects on this one. But it must be always remembered that dreams in general, and as we know them, are simply our waking and hazy recollections of these facts. It often happens, indeed, that we have no recollection of having dreamt at all, but later in the day the remembrance of the dream will suddenly flash upon us. Of this there are many causes. It is analogous to what sometimes happens to every one of us. Often a sensation, a smell, even a casual noise, or a sound, brings instantaneously to our mind long-forgotten events, scenes and persons. Something of what was seen, done, or thought by the "night-performer," the Ego, impressed itself at that time on the physical brain, but was not brought into the conscious, waking memory, owing to some physical condition or obstacle. This impression is registered on the brain in its appropriate cell or nerve-center, but owing to some accidental circumstance it "hangs fire," so to say, till something gives it the needed impulse. Then the brain slips it off immediately into the conscious memory of the waking man; for as soon as the conditions required are supplied, that particular center starts forthwith into activity, and does the work which it had to do, but was hindered at the time from completing. Q. How does this process take place? A. There is a sort of conscious telegraphic communication going on incessantly, day and night, between the physical brain and the inner man. The brain is such a complex thing, both physically and metaphysically, that it is like a tree whose bark you can remove layer by layer, each layer being different from all the others, and each having its own special work, function, and properties. Q. What distinguishes the "dreaming" memory and imagination from those of waking consciousness? A. During sleep the physical memory and imagination are of course passive, because the dreamer is asleep: his brain is asleep, his memory is asleep, all his functions are dormant and at rest. It is only when they are stimulated, as I told you, that they are aroused. Thus the consciousness of the sleeper is not active, but passive. The inner man, however, the real Ego, acts independently during the sleep of the body; but it is doubtful if any of us -- unless thoroughly acquainted with the physiology of occultism -- could understand the nature of its action. Q. What relation have the Astral Light and Akasa to memory? A. The former is the "tablet of the memory" of the animal man, the latter of the spiritual Ego. The "dreams" of the Ego, as much as the acts of the physical man, are all recorded, since both are actions based on causes and producing results. Our "dreams," being simply the waking state and actions of the true Self, must be, of course, recorded somewhere. Read "Karmic Visions" in Lucifer, and note the description of the real Ego, sitting as a spectator of the life of the hero, and perhaps something will strike you. Q. What, in reality, is the Astral Light? A. As the Esoteric Philosophy teaches us, the Astral Light is simply the dregs of Akasa or the Universal Ideation in its metaphysical sense. Though invisible, it is yet, so to speak, the phosphorescent radiation of the latter, and is the medium between it and man's thought-faculties. It is these which pollute the Astral Light, and make it what it is -- the storehouse of all human and especially psychic iniquities. In its primordial genesis, the astral light as a radiation is quite pure, though the lower it descends approaching our terrestrial sphere, the more it differentiates, and becomes as a result impure in its very constitution. But man helps considerably to this pollution, and gives it back its essence far worse than when he received it. Q. Can you explain to us how it is related to man, and its action in dream-life? A. Differentiation in the physical world is infinite. Universal ideation -- or Mahat, if you like it -- sends its homogeneous radiation into the heterogeneous world, and this reaches the human or personal minds through the Astral Light. Q. But do not our minds receive their illuminations direct from the Higher Manas through the Lower? And is not the former the pure emanation of divine Ideation -- the "Manasa-Putras," which incarnated in men? A. They are. Individual Manasa-Putras or the Kumaras are the direct radiations of the divine Ideation -- "individual" in the sense of later differentiation, owing to numberless incarnations. In sum they are the collective aggregation of that Ideation, become on our plane, or from our point of view, MAHAT, as the Dhyan-Chohans are in their aggregate the WORD or "Logos" in the formation of the World. Were the Personalities (Lower Manas or the physical minds) to be inspired and illumined solely by their higher alter Egos there would be little sin in this world. But they are not; and getting entangled in the meshes of the Astral Light, they separate themselves more and more from their parent Egos..... This imaginary [astral] space, however, on which are impressed the countless images of all that ever was, is, and will be, is but a too sad reality. It becomes in, and for, man -- if at all psychic -- and who is not? -- a tempting Demon, his "evil angel," and the inspirer of all our worst deeds. It acts on the will of even the sleeping man, through visions impressed upon his slumbering brain (which visions must not be confused with the "dreams"), and these germs bear their fruit when he awakes. Q. What is the part played by Will in dreams? A. The will of the outer man, our volition, is of course dormant and inactive during dreams; but a certain bent can be given to the slumbering will during its inactivity, and certain after-results developed by the mutual inter-action -- produced almost mechanically -- through union between two or more "principles" into one, so that they will act in perfect harmony, without any friction or a single false note, when awake. But this is one of the dodges of "black magic," and when used for good purposes belongs to the training of an Occultist. One must be far advanced on the "path" to have a will which can act consciously during his physical sleep, or act on the will of another person during the sleep of the latter, e.g., to control his dreams, and thus control his actions when awake. Q. We are taught that a man can unite all his "principles" into one -- what does this mean? A. When an adept succeeds in doing this he is a Jivanmukta: he is no more of this earth virtually, and becomes a Nirvanee, who can go into Samadhi at will. Adepts are generally classed by the number of "principles" they have under their perfect control, for that which we call will has its seat in the higher EGO, [ Higher Manas] and the latter, when it is rid of its sin-laden personality, is divine and pure. Q. What part does Karma play in dreams? ..... A. If they say so, it is because they have preserved in all their purity and remembered the traditions of their forefathers. They know that the Self is the real Ego, and that it lives and acts, though on a different plane. The external life is a "dream" to this Ego, while the inner life, or the life on what we call the dream plane, is the real life for it. ... Q. What is the difference, "karmically," between the two? A. The physical animal man is as little responsible as a dog or a mouse. For the bodily form all is over with the death of the body. But the real SELF, that which emanated its own shadow, or the lower thinking personality, that enacted and pulled the wires during the life of the physical automaton, will have to suffer conjointly with its factotum and alter ego in its next incarnation. Q. But the two, the higher and the lower, Manas are one, are they not? A. They are, and yet they are not -- and that is the great mystery. The Higher Manas or EGO is essentially divine, and therefore pure; no stain can pollute it, as no punishment can reach it, per se, the more so since it is innocent of, and takes no part in, the deliberate transactions of its Lower Ego. Yet by the very fact that, though dual and during life the Higher is distinct from the Lower, "the Father and Son" are one, and because that in reuniting with the parent Ego, the Lower Soul fastens upon and impresses upon it all its bad as well as good actions -- both have to suffer, the Higher Ego, though innocent and without blemish, has to bear the punishment of the misdeeds committed by the lower Self together with it in their future incarnation. The whole doctrine of atonement is built upon this old esoteric tenet; for the Higher Ego is the antitype of that which is on this earth the type, namely, the personality. It is, for those who understand it, the old Vedic story of Visvakarman over again, practically demonstrated. Visvakarman, the all-seeing Father-God, who is beyond the comprehension of mortals, ends, as son of Bhuvana, the holy Spirit, by sacrificing himself to himself, to save the worlds. The mystic name of the "Higher Ego" is, in the Indian philosophy, Kshetrajna, or "embodied Spirit," that which knows or informs kshetra, "the body." Etymologize the name, and you will find in it the term aja, "first-born," and also the "lamb." All this is very suggestive, and volumes might be written upon the pregenetic and postgenetic development of type and antitype -- of Christ-Kshetrajna, the "God-Man," the First-born, symbolized as the "lamb." The Secret Doctrine shows that the Manasa-Putras or incarnating EGOS have taken upon themselves, voluntarily and knowingly, the burden of all the future sins of their future personalities.[S D II 167, 224-5 ] Thence it is easy to see that it is neither Mr. A. nor Mr. B., nor any of the personalities that periodically clothe the Self-Sacrificing EGO, which are the real Sufferers, but verily the innocent Christos within us. Hence the mystic Hindus say that the Eternal Self, or the Ego (the one in three and three in one), is the "Charioteer" or driver; the personalities are the temporary and evanescent passengers; while the horses are the animal passions of man. It is, then, true to say that when we remain deaf to the Voice of our Conscience, we crucify the Christos within us. But let us return to dreams. Q. Are so-called prophetic dreams a sign that the dreamer has strong clairvoyant faculties? A. It may be said, in the case of persons who have truly prophetic dreams, that it is because their physical brains and memory are in closer relation and sympathy with their "Higher Ego" than in the generality of men. The Ego-Self [Higher Manas] has more facilities for impressing upon the physical shell and memory that which is of importance to such persons than it has in the case of other less gifted persons. Remember that the only God man comes in contact with is his own God, called Spirit, Soul and Mind, or Consciousness, and these three are one. But there are weeds that must be destroyed in order that a plant may grow. We must die, said St. Paul, that we may live again. It is through destruction that we may improve, and the three powers, the preserving, the creating and the destroying, are only so many aspects of the divine spark within man. ... Q. What, then, is the process of going to sleep? A. This is partially explained by Physiology. It is said by Occultism to be the periodical and regulated exhaustion of the nervous centers, and especially of the sensory ganglia of the brain, which refuse to act any longer on this plane, and, if they would not become unfit for work, are compelled to recuperate their strength on another plane or Upadhi. First comes the Svapna, or dreaming state, and this leads to that of Shushupti. Now it must be remembered that our senses are all dual, and act according to the plane of consciousness on which the thinking entity energizes. Physical sleep affords the greatest facility for its action on the various planes; at the same time it is a necessity, in order that the senses may recuperate and obtain a new lease of life for the Jagrata, or waking state, from the Svapna and Shushupti. According to Raj Yoga, Turya is the highest state. As a man exhausted by one state of the life fluid seeks another; as, for example, when exhausted by the hot air he refreshes himself with cool water; so sleep is the shady nook in the sunlit valley of life. Sleep is a sign that waking life has become too strong for the physical organism, and that the force of the life current must be broken by changing the waking for the sleeping state. Ask a good clairvoyant to describe the aura of a person just refreshed by sleep, and that of another just before going to sleep. The former will be seen bathed in rhythmical vibrations of life currents -- golden, blue, and rosy; these are the electrical waves of Life. The latter is, as it were, in a mist of intense golden-orange hue, composed of atoms whirling with an almost incredible spasmodic rapidity, showing that the person begins to be too strongly saturated with Life; the life essence is too strong for his physical organs, and he must seek relief in the shadowy side of that essence, which side is the dream element, or physical sleep, one of the states of consciousness. Q. But what is a dream? A. That depends on the meaning of the term. You may "dream," or, as we say, sleep visions, awake or asleep. If the Astral Light is collected in a cup or metal vessel by will-power, and the eyes fixed on some point in it with a strong will to see, a waking vision or "dream" is the result, if the person is at all sensitive. The reflections in the Astral Light are seen better with closed eyes, and, in sleep, still more distinctly. From a lucid state, vision becomes translucid; from normal organic consciousness it rises to a transcendental state of consciousness. Q. To what causes are dreams chiefly due? A. There are many kinds of dreams, as we all know. Leaving the "digestion dream" aside, there are brain dreams and memory dreams, mechanical and conscious visions. Dreams of warning and premonition require the active co-operation of the inner Ego. They are also often due to the conscious or unconscious co-operation of the brains of two living persons, or of their two Egos. Q. What is it that dreams, then? A. Generally the physical brain of the personal Ego, the seat of memory, radiating and throwing off sparks like the dying embers of a fire. The memory of the Sleeper is like an AEolian seven-stringed harp; and his state of mind may be compared to the wind that sweeps over the chords. The corresponding string of the harp will respond to that one of the seven states of mental activity in which the sleeper was before falling asleep. If it is a gentle breeze the harp will be affected but little; if a hurricane, the vibrations will be proportionately powerful. If the personal Ego is in touch with its higher principles and the veils of the higher planes are drawn aside, all is well; if on the contrary it is of a materialistic animal nature, there will be probably no dreams; or if the memory by chance catch the breath of a "wind" from a higher plane, seeing that it will be impressed through the sensory ganglia of the cerebellum, and not by the direct agency of the spiritual Ego, it will receive pictures and sounds so distorted and inharmonious that even a Devachanic vision would appear a nightmare or grotesque caricature. Therefore there is no simple answer to the question "What is it that dreams," for it depends entirely on each individual what principle will be the chief motor in dreams, and whether they will be remembered or forgotten. Q. Is the apparent objectivity in a dream really objective or subjective? A. If it is admitted to be apparent, then of course it is subjective. The question should rather be, to whom or what are the pictures or representations in dreams either objective or subjective? To the physical man, the dreamer, all he sees with his eyes shut, and in or through his mind, is of course subjective. But to the Seer within the physical dreamer, that Seer himself being subjective to our material senses, all he sees is as objective as he is himself to himself and to others like himself. Materialists will probably laugh, and say that we make of a man a whole family of entities, but this is not so. Occultism teaches that physical man is one, but the thinking man septenary, thinking, acting, feeling, and living on seven different states of being or planes of consciousness, and that for all these states and planes the permanent Ego (not the false personality) has a distinct set of senses. Q. Can these different senses be distinguished? A. Not unless you are an Adept or highly-trained Chela, thoroughly acquainted with these different states. Sciences, such as biology, physiology, and even psychology (of the Maudsley, Bain, and Herbert Spencer schools), do not touch on this subject. Science teaches us about the phenomena of volition, sensation, intellect, and instinct, and says that these are all manifested through the nervous centers, the most important of which is our brain. She will speak of the peculiar agent or substance through which these phenomena take place as the vascular and fibrous tissues, and explain their relation to one another, dividing the ganglionic centers into motor, sensory and sympathetic, but will never breathe one word of the mysterious agency of intellect itself, or of the mind and its functions. Now, it frequently happens that we are conscious and know that we are dreaming; this is a very good proof that man is a multiple being on the thought plane; so that not only is the Ego, or thinking man, Proteus, a multiform, ever-changing entity, but he is also, so to speak, capable of separating himself on the mind or dream plane into two or more entities; and on the plane of illusion which follows us to the threshold of Nirvana, he is like Ain-Soph talking to Ain-Soph, holding a dialogue with himself and speaking through, about, and to himself. And this is the mystery of the inscrutable Deity in the Zohar, as in the Hindu philosophies; it is the same in the Kabbala, Puranas, Vedantic metaphysics, or even in the so-called Christian mystery of the Godhead and Trinity. Man is the microcosm of the macrocosm; the god on earth is built on the pattern of the god in nature. But the universal consciousness of the real Ego transcends a millionfold the self-consciousness of the personal or false Ego. Q. Is that which is termed "unconscious cerebration" during sleep a mechanical process of the physical brain, or is it a conscious operation of the Ego, the result of which only is impressed on the ordinary consciousness? A. It is the latter; for is it possible to remember in our conscious state what took place while our brain worked unconsciously? This is apparently a contradiction in terms. Q. How does it happen that persons who have never seen mountains in nature often see them distinctly in sleep, and are able to note their features? A. Most probably because they have seen pictures of mountains; otherwise it is somebody or something in us which has previously seen them. Q. What is the cause of that experience in dreams in which the dreamer seems to be ever striving after something, but never attaining it? A. It is because the physical self and its memory are shut out of the possibility of knowing what the real Ego does. The dreamer only catches faint glimpses of the doings of the Ego, whose actions produce the so-called dream on the physical man, but is unable to follow it consecutively. A delirious patient, on recovery, bears the same relation to the nurse who watched and tended him in his illness as the physical man to his real Ego. The Ego acts as consciously within and without him as the nurse acts in tending and watching over the sick man. But neither the patient after leaving his sick bed, nor the dreamer on awaking, will be able to remember anything except in snatches and glimpses. Q. How does sleep differ from death? A. There is an analogy certainly, but a very great difference between the two. In sleep there is a connection, weak though it may be, between the lower and higher mind of man, and the latter is more or less reflected into the former, however much its rays may be distorted. But once the body is dead, the body of illusion, Mayavi Rupa, becomes Kama Rupa, or the animal soul, and is left to its own devices. Therefore, there is as much difference between the spook and man as there is between a gross material, animal but sober mortal, and a man incapably drunk and unable to distinguish the most prominent surroundings; between a person shut up in a perfectly dark room and one in a room lighted, however imperfectly, by some light or other. The lower principles are like wild beasts, and the higher Manas is the rational man who tames or subdues them more or less successfully. But once the animal gets free from the master who held it in subjection; no sooner has it ceased to hear his voice and see him than it starts off again to the jungle and its ancient den. It takes, however, some time for an animal to return to its original and natural state, but these lower principles or "spook" return instantly, and no sooner has the higher Triad entered the Devachanic state than the lower Duad rebecomes that which it was from the beginning, a principle endued with purely animal instinct, made happier still by the great change. Q. What is the condition of the Linga Sarira, or plastic body, during dreams? A. The condition of the Plastic form is to sleep with its body, unless projected by some powerful desire generated in the higher Manas. In dreams it plays no active part, but on the contrary is entirely passive, being the involuntarily half-sleepy witness of the experiences through which the higher principles are passing. Q. Under what circumstances is this wraith seen? A. Sometimes, in cases of illness or very strong passion on the part of the person seen or the person who sees; the possibility is mutual. A sick person especially just before death, is very likely to see in dream, or vision, those whom he loves and is continually thinking of, and so also is a person awake, but intensely thinking of a person who is asleep at the time. Q. Can a Magician summon such a dreaming entity and have intercourse with it? A. In black Magic it is no rare thing to evoke the "spirit" of a sleeping person; the sorcerer may then learn from the apparition any secret he chooses, and the sleeper be quite ignorant of what is occurring. Under such circumstances that which appears is the Mayavi rupa; but there is always a danger that the memory of the living man will preserve the recollections of the evocation and remember it as a vivid dream. If it is not, however, at a great distance, the Double or Linga Sarira may be evoked, but this can neither speak nor give information, and there is always the possibility of the sleeper being killed through this forced separation. Many sudden deaths in sleep have thus occurred, and the world been no wiser. Q. Can there be any connection between a dreamer and an entity in "Kama Loka"? A. The dreamer of an entity in Kama Loka would probably bring upon himself a nightmare, or would run the risk of becoming "possessed" by the "spook" so attracted, if he happened to be a medium, or one who had made himself so passive during his waking hours that even his higher Self is now unable to protect him. This is why the mediumistic state of passivity is so dangerous, and in time renders the Higher Self entirely helpless to aid or even warn the sleeping or entranced person. Passivity paralyzes the connection between the lower and higher principles. It is very rare to find instances of mediums who, while remaining passive at will, for the purpose of communicating with some higher Intelligence, some extraneous spirit (not disembodied), will yet preserve sufficiently their personal will so as not to break off all connection with the higher Self. Q. Can a dreamer be "en rapport" with an entity in Devachan? A. The only possible means of communicating with Devachanees is during sleep by a dream or vision, or in trance state. No Devachanee can descend into our plane; it is for us -- or rather our inner Self -- to ascend to his. .... ============= Best wishes, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: Steve S Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:36 PM To: Subject: sleep, dreams, Higher Self, Manas --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Could you please quote the particular text? "the [Higher] Ego ... is highly spiritual, and is linked very closely with the higher principles, Buddhi and Atma." But she says that: "the Higher] Ego must not be confused with what we call the 'Higher Self.'" The reason is undoubtedly that the Higher Self does not reside within the body, whereas the Higher Ego, being "linked very closely" with it, is a reflection of the Higher Self within the body. "These higher principles are entirely inactive on our plane, and the higher Ego (Manas) itself is more or less dormant during the waking of the physical man. This is especially the case with persons of very materialistic mind. So dormant are the Spiritual faculties, because the Ego is so trammelled by matter, that It can hardly give all its attention to the man's actions, even should the latter commit sins for which that Ego ? when reunited with its lower Manas ? will have to suffer conjointly in the future. It is, as I said, the impressions projected into the physical man by this Ego which constitute what we call "conscience"; and in proportion as the Personality, the lower Soul (or Manas), unites itself to its higher consciousness, or EGO, does the action of the latter upon the life of mortal man become more marked." CUT From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 17:22:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:22:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 29766 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:22:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 01:22:53 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:22:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Daniel C.Caldwell's Precipitation a big Con. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2986 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Brian you make me laugh. Now, how could anyone dislike someone that versatile, talented, and dare say I influential? Netemara **************- -- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Netemara: here the actual reference from Count Witt's Diary about > Blavatsky's inkschop ans special writigsckils: > > "She was next heard of from Odessa, where she emerged in the > company of her faithful basso. At that time our entire family was settled > in that city (my grandparents and father had died at Tiflis), and my > brother and I attended the university there. The extraordinary couple > must have found themselves in great straits. It was then that my > versatile cousin opened in succession an ink factory and retail shop and > a store of artificial flowers. In those days she often came to see my > mother, and I visited her store several times, so that I had the > opportunity of getting better acquainted with her. I was especially > impressed by the extraordinary facility with which she acquired skill and > knowledge of the most varied description. Her abilities in this respect > verged on the uncanny. . . . Consider also that although she never > seriously studied any foreign languages, she spoke several of them with > perfect ease. I was also struck by her mastery of the technique of verse. > She could write pages of smoothly flowing verse without the slightest > effort, and she could compose essays in prose on every conceivable > subject. Besides, she possessed the gift of hypnotizing both her hearer > and herself into believing the wildest inventions of her fantasy. She had, > no doubt, a literary talent. The Moscow editor, Katkov, famous in the > annals of Russian journalism, spoke to me in the highest terms of praise > about her literary gifts, as evidenced in the tales entitled "From the > Jungles of Hindostan" [sic] which she contributed to his magazine, The > Russian Messenger (Russki Vyestnik)". > > > > > this web site. K. Paul Johnson in fact flew personally to London to > > > look at > > > > the letters in the British Museum (with Leslie Price) and stated > > > the J. > > > > Godwin demonstration looked the same. > > > > > > > > Editor: Could the unknown factor described by Harrison, and by > > some > > > > interpreted as "precipitation," not easily be produced by writing > > > with a > > > > colored pencil with the paper resting on the cloth binding of a > > > book with > > > > the pattern determining the clean and sharp effect? > > > > > > > > K.Paul Johnson: Yes, another writer on Blavatsky once > > demonstrated > > > this > > > > for me and it does produce the same kind of effect as seen in > some > > > of > > > > the Mahatma letters. > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > wrote: From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 17:28:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:28:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 41970 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:28:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:28:56 -0000 Received: from pool0581.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.228.71] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18C8oO-0001ao-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:28:53 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Re to Dallas - RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:25:13 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2002 Dear Gerry: I can only offer that which I think I have learned from Theosophy, and from there we compare notes. Also below, I try to make clear how I approach the matter -- so it could be that I am wrong in this approach. It needs to be tested, weighed and improved on I am sure. But I can only say this : I have used it with success (to myself) for a number of years. As to understanding the S D . I imagine that depending on our motive for studying it, it responds and provides us with information according to how we search. This make the response selective since often, I have noticed I pass over or don't register items of information for which I am not specifically looking. And, later, rereading again that area I suddenly find I omitted to record (in memory) some important point, I find the S D has many aspects, and to study it requires many readings and years of diligent search. It is not something one accepts. It has to be cultivated and many times. Is this a fault of Manas or a lack of attention? I would say we all approach the S D from our point o view as Embodied Minds with our own limitations. But how do we discover we are self-limited? I, the Mind-being do this exercise. I recognize I stand mid-way between SPIRIT and MATTER. I am independent and free and can exercise my own choice. ( Of course I agree that I will also bear the consequences of whatever I choose to do or not to do. But not everyone is prepared to admit responsibility, or to shoulder such a heavy burden. Their attempt to act selfishly and then evade the consequences in a cooperative universe cause all the various kinds of suffering and sorrow. This sounds judgmental. But it is not so intended. it is merely to state a fact, as I see it. -- and I could be quite wrong in this. I have to "step away" from my parameters, and ask "What if ...." Next I try to take all the information I have so far gathered about the 7 principles and their potentials and qualities and apply the (if possible) to the task selected. But who or what is the "I" that does this questioning, selecting and observing from several view-points? The clue for me was in the old verse: "The One Consciousness pierces up and down through all the states and planes of Being, and serves to uphold the memory... of each state's experience." So what and where does the " One consciousness" come from? Is this a true statement ? I got this from the NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA ( Chapter 3, Judge, pp. 98-100 in my book). "The meaning here ( to strengthen himself by Himself ) is that he is to rely upon the One Consciousness, which, as differentiated in a man is his Higher SELF. ( Atma ). By means of this he is to strengthen the lower, or that which his accustomed to call "myself." [I gather that the view is there is a UNIVERSAL ONE CONSCIOUSNESS. It pervades the Universe, and is unimpeded. In man, it is the highest principle: Atma ( the Higher SELF). It is the Observer -- ""the one consciousness of each person is the Witness or Spectator of the actions and experiences of every state we are in or pass through." Well I hope this may help. Best wishes, Dallas ==================== -----Original Message----- From: gschueler Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:27 AM To: Subject: RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism Dallas, I can't offer "proof" for this, but Blavatsky's SD simply cannot be understood by manas -- there are too many unanswerable questions. Using intellectual knowledge and taking the SD at face value, it is a good story that hangs together fairly well, but begs the questions of Why? and How? for which there simply are no logical answers unless we assume the three propositions. If this were not the case, then the whole world would be convinced of its authenticity by now and everyone would be Theosophists. But this hasn't happened. NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO THINK. D. The world is ignoring the SD, and no one except a few Theosophists believes it to be an authentic universe model. The reason is that most people find no difference between the SD and the Bible or Koran etc etc. In order to accept the SD, one first must accept the three propositions upon which it is based. <<>> I don't know about "polar opposities" but they are certainly two ways that manas looks at the SD intellectually and tries to digest it. But what happens when the SD is investigated or analyzed by buddhi instead of manas? And isn't buddhi a far better "tool" to use than manas? WE USE BUDDHI As WISDOM and I find it agrees with the S D . D <<>> How far, do you suppose, has man's "active mind" come over the centuries in understanding "things as they are?" Well, it does understand the physical plane pretty well, and we have placed men on the moon and can communicate 24-7 with people all over the world etc etc. So far the evolution of manas has allowed us to "progress" in the direction of technology. But do we understand maya? Does our "active mind" allow us to understand atma-buddhi? Can it even conceptualize the non-dual Monad? I WOULD CALL THE "MANAS' you write of LOWER MANAS (In you and in me). We cannot avoid using it. It is the curious one that investigates and challenges. D It is very unfortunate that so few Theosophists understand Blavatsky's globes and planes model. If they did, they would realize that manas is restricted to one and only one plane, the mental plane. Information from the other six planes comes to manas filtered and distorted. Jerry S. From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 17:35:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:35:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 55359 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:35:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 01:34:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:34:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Statement by Tillett--the usual suspects Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2115 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Gregory Tillett wrote: > > "Given that Leadbeater was obviously a pathological liar, nothing > can be taken on his word alone." > > Steve Stubbs commented on Tillett's statement: > > "Absolutely true, and thanks for saying ir. It is genuinely > embarrassing that the Adyar TS extols this character to the cost of > HPB." > > But I wonder if Tillett is of the opinion that HPB was ALSO "a > pathological liar"? If that is true, the Adyar TS might not > want to "promote" ("extol"?!) HPB either! > > I get the impression from reading material by K. Paul Johnson and > Brigitte Muehlegger that they believe HPB was "a pathological liar." > > OBTW, Steve, I am assuming that you do NOT consider HPB "a > pathological liar." Right? > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc *********** I was thinking about this very thing Daniel as I fell asleep reading Sven Eck's book and The Mahatma Letters. Why? Because Damodar deserves a second look in terms of the main occult transmitter of the letters. He was the man!!! He and HPB lived on intimate terms, along with HSO at the Crow's Nest and he was a walking telegraph this man. I think he has been described as such too. They were in cohots if there was anything shaddy going on, but I think anything genuine had Damodar's stamp on it, and he may have allowed HPB to take credit for some of his successful transmissions. That's how close I think they were. Next, they will be saying she had the man killed!!!! But my comment is to this about HPB being a liar. I think she told an outright lie when she denied that Damodar was not found dead, or frozen to death on the way to Tibet. I have always felt that it was a true story, that he met his death when he left for the Himalayas. What do you think about that? I found her statements in Eck's book where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie." (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you? Netemara From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 13 17:49:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:49:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 79222 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:49:32 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.44.2945e222 (26116) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:49:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <44.2945e222.2b045b2a@cs.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:49:30 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Brian, Thanks so much for your humorous parody on the reading skills and inductive illogic's of "scholarship" at large as posted to this group, it affords opportunity for many refreshing chuckles, at least to this reader. As to my own experience in exposure to H.P.B.s authored works as well as many other works of Theosophy I simply find it impossible to reach conclusions such as you present. As others have posted here that "Synthesis" is openly and prominently stated not just on the Title Pages but throughout as a guiding thread for the reader, how one comes to the conclusion that there was any semblance of covert withholding from the reading public is simply false. As a matter of fact the statement that her works were a "Synthesis" lit up my personal lights and resulted in energizing my inclination for further inquiry. As to the making use of contents from the common "Heritage of Mankind" found in the historical works of all peer authors from the "Ageless Wisdom" as transduced through the serial minds of the thousands of "Thinkers" in all Cultures, Races, and Branches of Humanities Intuitive Inquiries. Never in my reading have I seen the assignment that predicates and monitors all the presentations of H.P.B. to and by and solely from the Atlantians, and if it had I would have rejected it for the reason that though I had read with interest the works once very popular on Atlantis and MU only to find out later that the author was a closet Mason force forming history to a Biased Tradition his group held. Sorry, Atlantis I believe is not a significant motivator providing the ergos to myself and I surmise, many others. As to "Aryan," I have posted before my view of the significance of the term, one need see the "White" background of this e-mail and reflect on the very substrate of Space itself, and doing that contemplate the common "Home" where Brotherhood is found when Consciousness can enter. Sorry "Race" is such a tawdry, cheap,disingenious, unconscious overt motivator, even when proposed for covertly held goals and as a mans to an end." Patanjali had it so right! Better to know the solitary common universal denominator of all mankind--this waking dualist consciousness. And having cognition, watched, seeing it's rational and logic's in all it's activities recognizing it then as the solitary originator of distinctions regard "Race",one knows the "Father of Lies" for itself. At "Home" without attribute there can be found no "Race", nor a Body to attack. John From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 17:51:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 88202 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:51:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <123.19c0c962.2b041dd9@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5065 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Leon you remind me of something I wrote I will have to find it in which I draw the conclusion that holograms are the ultimate inner spiritual reality. That all universes are only as real as their holographic nature. In other words, we create our inner reality and it seems we do it in the form of holographic images. Thanks for all the useful URLs. Netemara ************** -- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Very gratifying to hear about your interest in the scientific basis of > theosophy and how close (but not yet touching) physics is to understanding > the true nature of reality... Which, as I see it, goes far beyond the limited > realm of conventional quantum physics that considers only the physical > aspects of material substance, and has, until quite recently (except for a > few promethians) ignored its spiritual or consciousness aspects. > > As you may gather, I am critical of the separation that occurs in science > between the relativists, the quantalists, and the String/M-brane theorists > that not only contradict each other but also ignore the all inclusive > a-priori role that transcendental consciousness plays in the overall genesis > of material fields and forms. However, there are some physicists who > recognize these disparities and have tried to bring them together in a > synthetic theory -- such the Holographic Paradigm of A. T. Williams, based > on the following statement (that is not far from my ABC theory or the met > aphysics of HPB): ". . . unconditioned, omnipresent subquantum hyperenergy > and hyperinformation is the irreducible, all-inclusive ground of being within > which all conditionally relative nonmaterial and material phenomena > manifest." This also blends in with the theories of Bernard Haisch, Alfonso > Rueda & H. E. Puthoff pertaining to the high energy, faster than light, > zero-point energy fields (ZPE) -- as well as merging the holographic universe > ideas put forward by Carl Pribam, David Bohm and others. > > It's too bad that the physicists working on finding the Higgs particle have > had little success so far. However, I have a suspicion that such a particle > is a figment of their imagination, and simply represents the missing > energy/mass equivalents that are tied up in the invisible and non metric ZPE > hyperspace (or my ABC) fields that, apparently, may also be equivalent to the > proposed (if not imaginary) "dark matter" and "cosmological constants" of > relativity and quantum theories -- that attempts to bring them into alignment. > > For a little more on these contrary ideas, check out > http://www.calphysics.org/haisch/sciences.html > http://www.cox-internet.com/hermital/holopara.htm > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht ml > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html > > As for the science forums, see: > http://www.imprint.co.uk/online_index.html > http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/psychefaq.html#psyche-d > http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/quantum-mind.html > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MindBrain/ > > Best wishes, > > LHM > > > In a message dated 11/12/02 6:31:13 PM, netemara888@y... writes: > > >Thanks for the info Leon. I was supposed to be on a similar forum > >that was formed after a group of physicists and teachers spent some > >time on physics' projects "quarknet" at Notre Dame this summer. On my > >wall in this room I have a picture of "The Standard Model" which is > >based on the 8, the noble path of the Buddha. I have had discussions > >with physicists who work in conjunction with the accelarator at > >Fermi Labs which I visited for the first time this summer. I am > >hoping to go to CERN and spend some time there in Geneva and Europe. > >But that's funny you posit HPB's words/work with these physicists and > >now I am talking to some of these same guys in person. > > > >The group I worked with here was involved in that huge find where > >about 100 physicists are on the cover of TIME and there was some > >catchy title about how many physicists does it take to discover > >something. I forgot it, but I wrote a great deal about them in my > >manuscript. No one understands what I am doing except those who are > >both sides of the fence. My favorite T has the Feynmann diagram on > >it. > > > >I love physics. It is so spiritual. I have been following the > >progress of the GUT also for the last 30 years. I used to go to > >lectures by nobel physicists at the U. of Chicago and I understood > >every word of it, before I ever took a physics course. That's why I > >know there is a connection between meditation, the experiences of > >meditation and the holy grail of final particles. Which may be never > >ending. But if I get any emails regarding progress of the Higgs I > >will send them along, and if you get any please share them. > > > >What is the forum list? > > > >Netemara > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 17:57:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 01:57:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 90368 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 01:57:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 01:57:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 01:57:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 01:57:44 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:57:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <44.2945e222.2b045b2a@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3551 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I was going to say how reading about Blavatsky exploits and writings and nerve, just cracks me up. She is the most comical thing I have ever seen or read. I never tire of her works. Just when I think I have read everything I find a new gem that makes me laugh until my head hurts. Just thought of the leg episode.... Anyway, as for race, it's like 'when in Rome...' it is merely a tool to help classify and help others to understand themselves, their talents, interests, and shortcomings. It was never meant to be a deterent to leave anyone behind. I think races take turns sleeping, like the sleeping giant metaphor. That's all, nothing more. Netemara ************** --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Brian, > Thanks so much for your humorous parody on the reading skills and > inductive > illogic's of "scholarship" at large as posted to this group, it affords > opportunity for > many refreshing chuckles, at least to this reader. > > As to my own experience in exposure to H.P.B.s authored works as well > as many > other works of Theosophy I simply find it impossible to reach conclusions > such as > you present. As others have posted here that "Synthesis" is openly and > prominently > stated not just on the Title Pages but throughout as a guiding thread for > the reader, > how one comes to the conclusion that there was any semblance of covert > withholding > from the reading public is simply false. As a matter of fact the > statement that her > works were a "Synthesis" lit up my personal lights and resulted in > energizing my > inclination for further inquiry. > > As to the making use of contents from the common "Heritage of Mankind" > found > in the historical works of all peer authors from the "Ageless Wisdom" as > transduced > through the serial minds of the thousands of "Thinkers" in all Cultures, > Races, and > Branches of Humanities Intuitive Inquiries. Never in my reading have I > seen the > assignment that predicates and monitors all the presentations of H.P.B. to > and by > and solely from the Atlantians, and if it had I would have rejected it > for the reason > that though I had read with interest the works once very popular on > Atlantis and MU > only to find out later that the author was a closet Mason force forming > history to a > Biased Tradition his group held. Sorry, Atlantis I believe is not a > significant motivator > providing the ergos to myself and I surmise, many others. > > As to "Aryan," I have posted before my view of the significance of the > term, one need > see the "White" background of this e-mail and reflect on the very > substrate of Space > itself, and doing that contemplate the common "Home" where Brotherhood is > found > when Consciousness can enter. Sorry "Race" is such a tawdry, > cheap,disingenious, > unconscious overt motivator, even when proposed for covertly held goals > and as a > mans to an end." > > Patanjali had it so right! Better to know the solitary common universal > denominator > of all mankind--this waking dualist consciousness. And having cognition, > watched, > seeing it's rational and logic's in all it's activities recognizing it > then as the solitary > originator of distinctions regard "Race",one knows the "Father of Lies" > for itself. > > At "Home" without attribute there can be found no "Race", nor a Body to > attack. > > > John From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:08:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:08:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 81024 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:08:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:08:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:08:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: "Hot matter" off the wires--new in physics Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6075 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.209.16 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" wrote: Hello QuarkNetters, I write to invite your subscriptions to interactions.org. I recently received the message below from this nascent news service, a cooperative effort amongst international laboratories studying particle and nuclear physics. You can subscribe as well and receive news updates from the science frontier. Just go to www.interactions.org and follow the link to "sign up now" Best regards, Tom Begin forwarded message: > From: Interactions News Wire > Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:56:00 PM America/Chicago > To: newswire@i... > Subject: [Interactions News Wire] #13-02 - Brookhaven: Unexpected > Findings in 'Little' Big Bang > Reply-To: newsadmin@i... > > Interactions News Wire #13-02 > 11/12/02 > ********************************************************************** * > ****** > >> THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER, >> IN ROCHESTER, NEW YORK, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION. >> (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL >> SOCIETY.) Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society >> >> CONTACT: >> Jonathan Sherwood >> jonathan.sherwood@r... >> Tel: 585.273.4726 >> Fax: 585.275.0359 >> >> >> November 12, 2002 >> >> Physicists Puzzle Over Unexpected Findings in 'Little' Big Bang >> >> Scientists have recreated a temperature not seen since the first > microsecond >> of the birth of the universe and found that the event did not unfold > quite >> the way they expected, according to a recent paper in Physical Review >> Letters. The interaction of energy, matter, and the strong nuclear > force > in >> the ultra-hot experiments conducted at the Relativistic Heavy Ion > Collider >> (RHIC) was thought to be well understood, but a lengthy investigation > has >> revealed that physicists are missing something in their model of how > the >> universe works. >> >> "It's the things you weren't expecting that are really trying to tell > you >> something in science," says Steven Manly, associate professor of > physics > and >> astronomy at the University of Rochester and co-author of the paper. > "The >> basic nature of the interactions within the hot, dense medium, or at > least >> the manifestation of it, changes depending on the angle at which it's >> viewed. We don't know why. We've been handed some new pieces to the > puzzle >> and we're just trying to figure out how this new picture fits > together." >> >> At RHIC in Brookhaven, NY., Manly and his collaborators on the PHOBOS >> experiment wanted to probe the nature of the strong nuclear force that > > helps >> bind atoms together. They smashed two atoms of gold together at > velocities >> near the speed of light in an attempt to create what's called a > "quark-gluon >> plasma," a very brief state where the temperature is tens of thousands > of >> times higher than the cores of the hottest stars. Particles in this > hot-soup >> plasma stream out, but not without bumping into other particles in the > > soup. >> It's a bit like trying to race out of a crowded room-the more people > in > your >> way, the more difficult to escape. The strength of the interactions > between >> particles in the soup is determined by the strong force, so carefully >> watching particles stream out could reveal much about how the strong > force >> operates at such high temperatures. >> >> To simplify their observations, the researchers collided the circular > gold >> atoms slightly off-center so that the area of impact would not be > round, > but >> shaped rather like a football-pointed at each end. This would force > any >> streaming particles that headed out one of the tips of the football to > > pass >> through more of the hot soup than a particle exiting the side would. >> Differences in the number of particles escaping out the tip versus the > > side >> of the hot matter could reveal something of the nature of that hot > matter, >> and maybe something about the strong force itself. >> >> But a surprise was in store. Right where the gold atoms had collided, >> particles did indeed take longer to stream out the tips of the > football > than >> the sides, but farther from the exact point of collision, that > difference >> evaporated. That defied a treasured theory called boost invariance. >> >> "When we first presented this at a conference in Stony Brook, the > audience >> couldn't believe it," says Manly. "They said, 'This can't be. You're >> violating boost invariance.' But we've gone over our results for more > than > a >> year, and it checks out." >> >> Aside from revealing that scientists are missing a piece of the > physics >> puzzle, the findings mean that understanding these collisions fully > will > be >> much more difficult than expected. No longer can physicists measure > only > the >> sweet spot where the atoms initially collided-they now must measure > the >> entire length of the plasma, effectively making what was a > two-dimensional >> problem into a three-dimensional one. As Manly says, this > "dramatically >> increases the computing complexity" of any model researchers try to > devise. >> >> Modeling and understanding such collisions are extremely important > because >> the way that the plasma cools-condensing like steam turning into water > >> against a shower door-might shed some light on the mechanism that > gives >> matter its very mass. Where mass itself comes from has been one of >> physicists chief conundrums for decades. Manly hopes that if we can >> understand exactly why the quark-gluon plasma behaves as it does, we > might >> gain an insight into some of the rudiments of the world we live in. >> >> "Understanding all the dynamics of the collision is really critical > for >> actually trying to get the information we want," says Manly. "It may > be > that >> we have an actual clue here that something fundamental is >> different-something we just don't understand." Smiling, he adds, > "Yet." >> --- End forwarded message --- From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:09:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:09:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 35091 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:09:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:09:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:09:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:09:58 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:09:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE:: A Precipitation Primer Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4061 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.24.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Dallas: "Examination of some letters at high magnification clearly shows that what appears to the unaided eye as a continuous line ... is in fact a close series of very fine lines each separated from the other by a white space. ... Needless to say that at the time of such precipitation (in the period between 1880 and 1885) no technology existed in the West that could produce such an effect. Not true. This just means the letters were painted on using a brush and not written with a pen. You left off the most interesting quote, which spells out how a letter could be produced from out of space and not merely written on existing paper. Some comments: KH: "Bear this in mind and be prepared for it in London. This is probably a reference to the letters produced by Laura Holloway for Sinnett. KH: "we employ agents??the best available. Of these, for the past thirty years, the chief has been the personality known as H.P.B." Meaning she was one of the amanuensis chelas. "Through the means of the Astral Light and the help of Elementals ..." The fact that elementals were involved is the reason the matter was considered a risky one. "Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The "form" referred to here is rupa in Sanskrit, and is the kama rupa to which I referred. "it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached, causes the Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form which may then be used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold or sand for the molten iron. The "mold" is the kama rupa. Bear in mind that Judge knew little about this process. Consider this: any piece of matter can be conceptually decomposed into three independent things: the atoms of which it is composed, the cohesion which holds the atoms together, and the form or rupa into which the cohesion holds said atoms. "it is hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever written by the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and that when a Master says, "I wrote that letter," it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision. Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture?making process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted This is a reference to the "amanuensis chelas" who were never identified by name but of which there appear to have been two: HPB and Damodar. If the process was "impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed" then it is likely HPB took those impressions and phrased them in her own words, which is why the letters have her characteristic style. The problem is then whether they really were someone else's thoughts or not. "The message has to be seen in the astral light in facsimile, and through that astral matrix, I precipitate the whole of it." The "facsimile" is the kama rupa. "It's different, though, if Master sends me the paper and the message already done." This would be a reference to materializing the paper itself with the lettering on it. The process is described in the quote aforementioned. "Some years ago H.P.B. was charged [ by A.P.Sinnett ] with misuse of Mahatmas' names and handwritings, with forgery of messages from the Mahatmas Sinnett claims HPB admitted it, and said no harm done since he was not fooled. "if the Letter to some Brahmins ["Prayag Letter" ?? Mahatma Letters, p. 461?3 ??] is a fraud, as Col. Olcott and another say, then all the rest are, also." Dangerous statement. From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:14:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:14:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 16518 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:14:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:14:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:14:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:14:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:14:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: You can chat online with REAL physicists!!! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2909 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.209.16 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" wrote: Hello again, The lab is hosting chat sessions with FNAL scientists. You and your=20 students may be interested in the details in the following press=20 release. Best regards (still), Tom 02-25 November 13, 2002 For immediate release Press Contact: Elizabeth Clements, Fermilab Public Affairs, 630-840-3351 Fermilab Hosts Virtual Ask-a-Scientist on December 12, 2002 BATAVIA, Ill. - The Department of Energy=92s Fermi National Accelerator=20= Laboratory will host the next Virtual Ask-a-Scientist on-line chat=20 session on December 12, 2002 from 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Central Time.=20= Physicists Brenna Flaugher, of Fermilab=92s CDF experiment, and Tom=20 Diehl, of Fermilab=92s DZero experiment, will respond to questions live=20= on-line. This upcoming chat session should be unique because the=20 featured scientists also happen to be husband and wife, which is a=20 first for this program. Virtual Ask-a-Scientist is an on-line chat session with Fermilab=20 scientists that gives participants the opportunity to ask questions=20 about high-energy physics from: =93What is a neutrino?=94 to =93Can I = build a=20 particle detector at home?=94 Fermilab invites people of all ages and = all=20 science backgrounds to participate. =93I think that it is important for practicing scientists to share the=20= excitement of discovery with those people who are interested in=20 science, but not directly involved. Why should scientists have all the=20= fun?=94 said Don Lincoln, a Scientist for Fermilab=92s DZero project, = who=20 participated in the most recent Virtual Ask-a-Scientist on October 9,=20 2002. =93I had a wonderful time speaking with a number of people during=20= the Virtual Ask a Scientist chat session. The questioners were mostly=20 like us=85seekers of the truth.=94 Transcripts from this and other chat=20= sessions are available online at:=20 http://www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/virtual/. Interested participants may join the Virtual Ask-a-Scientist chatroom=20 on the evening of December 12, 2002 by clicking a link on the Fermilab=20= homepage (http://www.fnal.gov) and following the directions to log in=20 and ask questions. Java enabled browsers are required. Internet=20 Explorer version 4 or higher is recommended, but Netscape=92s browsers=20= may also be used. (Netscape is not recommended for Macintosh users.) For more information about Virtual Ask-a-Scientist, please visit=20 http://www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/virtual/. Fermilab is a U.S. Department of Energy national laboratory, operated=20 under contract by Universities Research Association, Inc. -30- =09 -- Thomas Jordan Fermi National Accelerator Lab MS 226 PO Box 500 Kirk and Pine Streets Batavia, Illinois 60510 voice: 630.840.4035 fax: 630.840.8248= --- End forwarded message --- From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:15:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:15:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 5972 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:15:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:15:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:15:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Statement by Tillett--the usual suspects Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 383 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.24.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > I found her statements in Eck's book > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie." > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you? If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a painful reality? From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:23:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:23:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 65344 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:23:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:23:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:23:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:23:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:23:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Statement by Tillett--the usual suspects Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1112 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > I found her statements in Eck's book > > where she said "Damodar was coming home any day, and that his death > > and the finding of his naked body and clothes nearby was a lie." > > (paraphrase) I can't believe her on this one==can you? > > If the statement was false, is it a lie or a refusal to face a > painful reality? ********* Well, yeah, you get the gist of what I am saying because that's why I mention how close they were. I was torn between believing she DID not want to face he was gone and that she was given, had to have heard something I KNOW, and still wrote that this information was lies. She called the info she received lies. That's a hard one to call. They had karmic ties going way back. But I think she was looking out for her baby too: The TS. If she thought that DKM's death and manner of death was talked about and spread about the world it would not bode well for her influence and the masters THEY revered. Final answer.... Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:27:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:27:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 23072 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:27:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:27:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:27:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:27:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:27:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE:: A Precipitation Primer Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4686 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I thought she did create some of the letters out of the ethers/space? That's my impression of the genuine ones by her or others. That the letters/words were impressed into the paper--formed in space and then married or melted to the paper. Now, if it indeed did happen that way, then that would be something so see. Netemara ********** --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > Dallas: "Examination of some letters at high magnification clearly > shows that what appears to the unaided eye as a continuous line ... > is in fact a close series of very fine > lines each separated from the other by a white space. ... Needless to > say that at the time of such precipitation (in the period between > 1880 and 1885) no technology existed in the West that could produce > such an effect. > > Not true. This just means the letters were painted on using a brush > and not written with a pen. > > You left off the most interesting quote, which spells out how a > letter could be produced from out of space and not merely written on > existing paper. > > Some comments: > > KH: "Bear this in mind and be prepared for it in London. > > This is probably a reference to the letters produced by Laura > Holloway for Sinnett. > > KH: "we employ agents??the best available. Of these, for the past > thirty years, the chief has been the personality known as H.P.B." > > Meaning she was one of the amanuensis chelas. > > "Through the means of the Astral Light and the help of Elementals ..." > > The fact that elementals were involved is the reason the matter was > considered a risky one. > > "Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of > matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all > possible forms, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and > then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with > the matter by precipitation. > > The "form" referred to here is rupa in Sanskrit, and is the kama rupa > to which I referred. > > "it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached, causes the > Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form > which may then be used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold > or sand for the molten iron. > > The "mold" is the kama rupa. Bear in mind that Judge knew little > about this process. > > Consider this: any piece of matter can be conceptually decomposed > into three independent things: the atoms of which it is composed, the > cohesion which holds the atoms together, and the form or rupa into > which the cohesion holds said atoms. > > "it is hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever > written by the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf > they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write > them; and that when a Master says, "I wrote that > letter," it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and > impressed under his direct supervision. Generally they make their > chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by > impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if > necessary aiding him in the picture?making process of precipitation. > It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how > accurately the ideas may be transmitted > > This is a reference to the "amanuensis chelas" who were never > identified by name but of which there appear to have been two: HPB > and Damodar. > > If the process was "impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish > expressed" then it is likely HPB took those impressions and phrased > them in her own words, which is why the letters have her > characteristic style. The problem is then whether they really were > someone else's thoughts or not. > > "The message has to be seen in the astral light in facsimile, and > through that astral matrix, I precipitate the whole of it." > > The "facsimile" is the kama rupa. > > "It's different, though, if Master sends me the paper and the message > already done." > > This would be a reference to materializing the paper itself with the > lettering on it. The process is described in the quote > aforementioned. > > "Some years ago H.P.B. was charged [ by A.P.Sinnett ] with misuse of > Mahatmas' names and handwritings, with forgery of messages from the > Mahatmas > > Sinnett claims HPB admitted it, and said no harm done since he was > not fooled. > > "if the Letter to some Brahmins ["Prayag Letter" ?? Mahatma Letters, > p. 461?3 ??] is a fraud, as Col. Olcott and another say, then all the > rest are, also." > > Dangerous statement. From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 13 18:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:28:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 15202 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:27:59 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.124.19f1a5c8 (26116) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:27:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <124.19f1a5c8.2b04642a@cs.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:27:54 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World "Curious and unexplained features of the KH letters" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Danial, Thanks, as always, much appreciated. This post informative in an analytical way which I found interesting and informative. John From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 18:34:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:34:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 50032 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:34:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:34:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:34:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:34:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:34:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Master KH on Damodar Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 715 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29. Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts were unknown. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 18:43:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:43:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 91226 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:43:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:43:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:43:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:43:11 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:43:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: News of Damodar: A Letter from Sriman Swamy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1192 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell News of Damodar: A Letter from Sriman Swamy ------------------------------------------------------ Madras, August 7th, 1889 To . . . . . . DEAR SIR AND BROTHER, In reply to your enquiries I may say that I certify on my word as a Sanyassi that I have twice visited Tibet since the year 1879; that I have personally become acquainted with several Mahatmas, among whom were the two known to the outside word as Mahatma "M" and Mahatma "K. H."; that I spent some time in their company; that they told me that they and other Mahatmas were interested in the work of the Theosophical Society; that Mahatma "M" told me he had been the (occult) guardian of Madame Blavatsky from her infancy. And I further certify that in March 1887 I saw Mr. Damodar K. Mavalankar at L'hassa, in a convalescent state. He told me, in the presence of Mahatma "K. H." that he had been at the point of death in the previous year. (Signed) Sriman Swamy. Hon. Sec. Cow Memorial Fund of Allahabad. ------------------------------------------------------ See article at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/srimanswamy.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 18:49:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:49:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 47327 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:49:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:49:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:49:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Madame Blavatsky on the letter written by Sriman Swamy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2982 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In a letter dated "London, 21-Nov., 1889" to Mr. N. D. Khandalavala, Madame Blavatsky made the following comments on the letter written by Sriman Swamy: "My Dear Mr. Khandalavala, I have given to your letter of the 25th Oct., the closest attention, though there is nothing in it I did not know before; and now shall answer it with all seriousness. . . . As regards the state of the Indian Sections of the Society, and the complaints against Olcott, I observe the following things. . . . . . . That Damodar is believed to have been driven away by harsh treatment to live or die as he pleased; and that he is, in fact, dead. . . . . That the publication of Sriman Swamy's letter by me [in Lucifer] is traceable to Col. Olcott's 'craving for strange stories and his anxiety to publish them without throughly verifying them in the first instance.' . . . Let me reply. . . . . . . Damodar is not dead, and Olcott knows it as well as I do. I had a letter from him not more than 3 months ago. . . . . . . No matter what your lying Sriman Swamy may, or may not be --- one cannot always tell --- he passed successfully through a cross examination by Mr. Subba Row, who pronounced him a real 'chela of the 2nd Class' to several witnesses in Madras --- Judge Srinivas Row among others, Olcott, etc. Without help he [Sriman Swamy] identified the two portraits [of the Masters M. and K.H.] saying which was which, and gave facts not obtainable from books. The certificate he gave was sent [to me] by Harte as a duplicate of what was to appear in the Theosophist, and I printed it [in the September 1889 issue of Lucifer] for reasons of my own, even after Harte had written that he suppressed it (1) (through funk of the disbelieving Hindus) at Adyar. I made no comments on it [when published in Lucifer] because there were two fibs in it: (a) Damodar never was at Lhassa nor Sriman Swamy either, and not being permitted to say where he saw Damodar he gave a wrong name; and (b) My Master never told him what he says of me, but he heard it from a chela. I printed it with the lies, for two reasons --- firstly, since I published it at all I had no right to change one word; secondly, I wanted to see what they would say in India to this; in India where every lie is believed and repeated most readily, while truth is rejected, smothered shot out of the guns (metaphorically) by rulers and by the ruled. Aye, India does crucify truth as readily as it is crucified here [in England]. Therefore, it was not yet intimated to me Mr. Subba Row had discovered his mistake about the Swamy being 'a chela of the 2nd Class,' whatever it may mean in India, as in Tibet it means nothing. . . ." The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), August 1932, pp. 618-619, 623-625. (1) The letter from Sriman Swamy was never published in the Theosophist. H.P. Blavatsky printed it in Lucifer. See Madame Blavatsky's comments above. --- BA Editor. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 18:55:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:55:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 66398 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:55:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Occult Hierarchy. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4143 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach The Mahatma Letters introduced and exhibited to the world a small company of persons variously called "The Universal Brotherhood", the "Masters of the Wisdom" and the "Occult Hierarchy". Whether or not there are such orders of beings; it is sufficient to say that if Blavatsky had on her own authority compel the world to believe her, by attempting to create an objective demonstration of the existence and work of certain Mahatmas, and to cast a glamour over her contemporaries by a series of marvels which many were unable to resist. Thus the occult hierarchy was organized and revealed with a wealth of personal detail, until it became fixed in the imagination of believers. The two Masters of 1880 were soon multiplied to ten, and later to sixteen; they included "Hilarion" the Greek (identified with lamblichus, the Neoplatonist) and the "Count" (identified with the Comte de St. Germain of the eighteenth century). As a concession to Christians, "the Master Jesus", after due trial and probation, was admitted into the company of the elect. As soon as the Indian belief in Reincarnation had been definitely accepted by Mr. Sinnett and his successors, Madame Blavatsky's Masters were provided by Mr. Leadbeater with an occult genealogy of their previous lives, which embedded her inventions more deeply in reality. K.H. was declared to be a reincarnation of the Chinese Philosopher Lao-tze, while, by the bounty of fortune, he appeared in Europe in the flesh of Pythagoras of Samos. Thus we had the surprising spectacle of a Mahatma's ancestral "double" gracing two continents at once, as soon as historians were able to show that the Chinese sage and the Greek philosopher had been contemporaries in the sixth century B.C. Above the Tibetan Masters-who, after all, with their earthly jollity, their swearing and smoking, were very human creatures-Madame Blavatsky had given us faint glimpses of other and greater beings. In the course of time, through Mr. Sinnett and the smaller literary fry of his day, we have been told the names and functions of the occult officials who govern the world. H. P. Blavatsky's "Chohans" and the "MahaChohan" are still in being, but we have also been allowed to hear of The Lord Vaivasvata Manu (extracted from Vedic legend), The Bodhisattva, The Lord Maitreya (both adopted from Mdhaya-na Buddhism), "The Director of Evolution", and even of "the Great King" of the Universe Himself. The Pauline and Gnostic hierarchies were similarly patronized and incorporated into the Theosophical Superstructure., to secure the adherence of both orthodox and heretical Christians. Blavatsky must have smiled* to see poor Mr. Sinnett patiently building up, storey by storey, the pagodas of The Occult World and Esoteric Buddhism-with nothing more substantial than a pack of cards out of her own cabinet of magic. And what will the Theosophists think and say-- who have made Mr. Sinnett's two books the Leviticus and Deuteronomy of their Bible-when they see these paper edifices collapse before the first breath of truth? The ethnologists and anthropologists of Science, who were ever doing their best to present a reasoned history of man, received scant respect from Blavatsky, Sinnett, Besant and the hundreds of neo-Theosophical leaders since then . just as the Mahatmic theory about chains and rounds of planets has become the stuff out of which thousands of "propaganda lectures" have been made, so the history of the human race, on Blavatsky's initiative, has been dislocated from the beginning. Yet H.P.B. made her Mahatmas reproach Mr. Sinnett for rushing into print with his books. When critics found fault with Esoteric Buddhism she and Subba Row defended it in The Theosophist. But when she published The Secret Doctrine she threw him over, and wrote to the critics (Maitland and Kingsford): "We were obliged to support him then because he represented us, but when the secret doctrine was concerned it was necessary to tell the truth" (Life of AX, Vol. n, p. 16o). http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 18:56:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 02:56:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 61814 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 02:56:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 02:56:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 02:56:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.190] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 02:56:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:56:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: K. Paul Johnson on Damodar's "Fate" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1240 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In 1990, in his first book on Blavatsky and Theosophy, K. Paul Johnson wrote about Damodar's "fate": "Alas for poor Damodar! The entire period of his attachment to the Headquarters had been extremely stressful, as he was HPB's only truly trusted chela. Whatever the mysterious connection between the real Masters and the dubious phenomena, the secret died with him and HPB. But while she could rebound, as she had from so many other trials, his honour was destroyed and his only salvation was escape. Motivated by love for India and hope for reviving its degraded spiritual heritage, he had labored for the Masters and gained as his reward public humiliation as an accomplice of a fraudulent psychic. Small wonder that he felt he had no choice but to quietly disappear into 'Tibet.' Damodar's destination was probably neither the death by freezing to which Meade and her predecessors condemn him, nor the glorious reunion with Tibetan Masters as believed by Theosophists. In Kashmir or the Punjab, he was rewarded for his labors with a new identity and a new life in service to the real Masters whose existence was denied by Richard Hodgson." Paul Johnson, In Search of the Masters, privately published, 1990, page 257. From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 13 19:03:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 03:03:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 76484 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 03:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 03:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 03:03:52 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.17e.11d29091 (26116) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:03:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17e.11d29091.2b046c92@cs.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:03:46 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Great charlatans = Egyptian magicians = Count Cagliostro = H... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Bart, I have to agree. What Phenomenal things I experienced and witnessed were referred to as "cheap thrills" and "circus tricks" by the actuator and he was very fixed in a position of not ever "Performing on Cue" to satisfy people and even more against performing for any fee whatever. My personal view is that if one has an opportunity to actually see, witness, experience, document, record or validate these type events it is an education in itself availing experience such as not to be found by most except by Providence itself in most cases. A rare event and a rare opportunity. Like they used to say: there ain't noth'in like the real thing baby! Lol John From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 13 19:06:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 03:06:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 2326 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 03:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 03:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 03:06:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 03:06:03 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:05:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: B/B's "Occult Hierarchy" version compared to the original testimonies Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4708 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell One should compare the text below (written by Brian/Brigitte ???) about the "Occult Hierarchy" with the actual testimonies of witnesses who said they saw and encountered HPB's Teachers. See: "A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mastersencounterswith.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc Brian/Brigitte (???) wrote: > The Mahatma Letters introduced and exhibited to the world a small > company of persons variously called "The Universal Brotherhood", > the "Masters of the Wisdom" and the "Occult Hierarchy". Whether or not > there are such orders of beings; it is sufficient to say that if Blavatsky > had on her own authority compel the world to believe her, by attempting > to create an objective demonstration of the existence and work of > certain Mahatmas, and to cast a glamour over her contemporaries by a > series of marvels which many were unable to resist. Thus the occult > hierarchy was organized and revealed with a wealth of personal detail, > until it became fixed in the imagination of believers. The two Masters of > 1880 were soon multiplied to ten, and later to sixteen; they > included "Hilarion" the Greek (identified with lamblichus, the > Neoplatonist) and the "Count" (identified with the Comte de St. Germain > of the eighteenth century). As a concession to Christians, "the Master > Jesus", after due trial and probation, was admitted into the company of > the elect. > > As soon as the Indian belief in Reincarnation had been definitely > accepted by Mr. Sinnett and his successors, Madame Blavatsky's > Masters were provided by Mr. Leadbeater with an occult genealogy of > their previous lives, which embedded her inventions more deeply in > reality. K.H. was declared to be a reincarnation of the Chinese > Philosopher Lao-tze, while, by the bounty of fortune, he appeared in > Europe in the flesh of Pythagoras of Samos. Thus we had the surprising > spectacle of a Mahatma's ancestral "double" gracing two continents at > once, as soon as historians were able to show that the Chinese sage > and the Greek philosopher had been contemporaries in the sixth century > B.C. > > Above the Tibetan Masters-who, after all, with their earthly jollity, their > swearing and smoking, were very human creatures-Madame Blavatsky > had given us faint glimpses of other and greater beings. In the course of > time, through Mr. Sinnett and the smaller literary fry of his day, we have > been told the names and functions of the occult officials who govern the > world. > > H. P. Blavatsky's "Chohans" and the "MahaChohan" are still in being, but > we have also been allowed to hear of The Lord Vaivasvata Manu > (extracted from Vedic legend), The Bodhisattva, The Lord Maitreya (both > adopted from Mdhaya-na Buddhism), "The Director of Evolution", and > even of "the Great King" of the Universe Himself. > > The Pauline and Gnostic hierarchies were similarly patronized and > incorporated into the Theosophical Superstructure., to secure the > adherence of both orthodox and heretical Christians. > > Blavatsky must have smiled* to see poor Mr. Sinnett patiently building > up, storey by storey, the pagodas of The Occult World and Esoteric > Buddhism-with nothing more substantial than a pack of cards out of her > own cabinet of magic. And what will the Theosophists think and say- - > who have made Mr. Sinnett's two books the Leviticus and Deuteronomy > of their Bible-when they see these paper edifices collapse before the > first breath of truth? > > The ethnologists and anthropologists of Science, who were ever doing > their best to present a reasoned history of man, received scant respect > from Blavatsky, Sinnett, Besant and the hundreds of neo- Theosophical > leaders since then . just as the Mahatmic theory about chains and > rounds of planets has become the stuff out of which thousands > of "propaganda lectures" have been made, so the history of the human > race, on Blavatsky's initiative, has been dislocated from the beginning. > Yet H.P.B. made her Mahatmas reproach Mr. Sinnett for rushing into > print with his books. When critics found fault with Esoteric Buddhism she > and Subba Row defended it in The Theosophist. But when she published > The Secret Doctrine she threw him over, and wrote to the critics > (Maitland and Kingsford): "We were obliged to support him then > because he represented us, but when the secret doctrine was > concerned it was necessary to tell the truth" (Life of AX, Vol. n, p. 16o). > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 19:19:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 97156 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:19:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: B/B's "Occult Hierarchy" version compared to the original testimonies Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5597 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.28.27.3 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Books presenting the doctrines of theosophy are, with few exceptions, apologetic. The overwhelming majority of these works present theosophy as a fixed set of coherent doctrines, largely eschew discussions of historical changes, the true sources of the theosophical teachings, and aim to present modern theosophical doctrines in an easily understandable format for potential converts. The lack of scholarly attention is most clearly felt when one turns to the post-theosophical schools. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > One should compare the text below (written by Brian/Brigitte ???) > about the "Occult Hierarchy" with the actual testimonies of witnesses > who said they saw and encountered HPB's Teachers. > > See: > > "A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas" > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mastersencounterswith.htm > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > Brian/Brigitte (???) wrote: > > > The Mahatma Letters introduced and exhibited to the world a small > > company of persons variously called "The Universal Brotherhood", > > the "Masters of the Wisdom" and the "Occult Hierarchy". Whether or > not > > there are such orders of beings; it is sufficient to say that if > Blavatsky > > had on her own authority compel the world to believe her, by > attempting > > to create an objective demonstration of the existence and work of > > certain Mahatmas, and to cast a glamour over her contemporaries by > a > > series of marvels which many were unable to resist. Thus the occult > > hierarchy was organized and revealed with a wealth of personal > detail, > > until it became fixed in the imagination of believers. The two > Masters of > > 1880 were soon multiplied to ten, and later to sixteen; they > > included "Hilarion" the Greek (identified with lamblichus, the > > Neoplatonist) and the "Count" (identified with the Comte de St. > Germain > > of the eighteenth century). As a concession to Christians, "the > Master > > Jesus", after due trial and probation, was admitted into the > company of > > the elect. > > > > As soon as the Indian belief in Reincarnation had been definitely > > accepted by Mr. Sinnett and his successors, Madame Blavatsky's > > Masters were provided by Mr. Leadbeater with an occult genealogy of > > their previous lives, which embedded her inventions more deeply in > > reality. K.H. was declared to be a reincarnation of the Chinese > > Philosopher Lao-tze, while, by the bounty of fortune, he appeared > in > > Europe in the flesh of Pythagoras of Samos. Thus we had the > surprising > > spectacle of a Mahatma's ancestral "double" gracing two continents > at > > once, as soon as historians were able to show that the Chinese sage > > and the Greek philosopher had been contemporaries in the sixth > century > > B.C. > > > > Above the Tibetan Masters-who, after all, with their earthly > jollity, their > > swearing and smoking, were very human creatures-Madame Blavatsky > > had given us faint glimpses of other and greater beings. In the > course of > > time, through Mr. Sinnett and the smaller literary fry of his day, > we have > > been told the names and functions of the occult officials who > govern the > > world. > > > > H. P. Blavatsky's "Chohans" and the "MahaChohan" are still in > being, but > > we have also been allowed to hear of The Lord Vaivasvata Manu > > (extracted from Vedic legend), The Bodhisattva, The Lord Maitreya > (both > > adopted from Mdhaya-na Buddhism), "The Director of Evolution", and > > even of "the Great King" of the Universe Himself. > > > > The Pauline and Gnostic hierarchies were similarly patronized and > > incorporated into the Theosophical Superstructure., to secure the > > adherence of both orthodox and heretical Christians. > > > > Blavatsky must have smiled* to see poor Mr. Sinnett patiently > building > > up, storey by storey, the pagodas of The Occult World and Esoteric > > Buddhism-with nothing more substantial than a pack of cards out of > her > > own cabinet of magic. And what will the Theosophists think and say- > - > > who have made Mr. Sinnett's two books the Leviticus and Deuteronomy > > of their Bible-when they see these paper edifices collapse before > the > > first breath of truth? > > > > The ethnologists and anthropologists of Science, who were ever > doing > > their best to present a reasoned history of man, received scant > respect > > from Blavatsky, Sinnett, Besant and the hundreds of neo- > Theosophical > > leaders since then . just as the Mahatmic theory about chains and > > rounds of planets has become the stuff out of which thousands > > of "propaganda lectures" have been made, so the history of the > human > > race, on Blavatsky's initiative, has been dislocated from the > beginning. > > Yet H.P.B. made her Mahatmas reproach Mr. Sinnett for rushing into > > print with his books. When critics found fault with Esoteric > Buddhism she > > and Subba Row defended it in The Theosophist. But when she > published > > The Secret Doctrine she threw him over, and wrote to the critics > > (Maitland and Kingsford): "We were obliged to support him then > > because he represented us, but when the secret doctrine was > > concerned it was necessary to tell the truth" (Life of AX, Vol. n, > p. 16o). > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 19:24:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 03:24:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 3889 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 03:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 03:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 03:24:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 03:24:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:24:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: No evidence but the "will" to believe, plus fairy tale "stories." Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4693 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.28.27.3 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach People like Dallas the Broek (Dalval) or Daniel Caldwell do is shower people with outdated Theosophical propaganda material. It is like with Jehovas Witnesses (have you ever seen someone try to get you to "look" at The Watchtower ?), well they know that once reading the stuff many people often do join. The same on this list, Dalval often answer a question with one sentence, but then slips half a book of literature in his post totally non-related to the subject, "here read this" and so does Caldwell just post tons of material ("just read this" the same material over and over) without ever answering a single question. Were is the proof the source of The Mahatma Letters is what Dalval and Caldwell suggest it is, including the (secondary) claim that they would be magically produced out of thin air.(Precipitated they call it among others, plus letters appeard from the ceiling and so on) The reading of a telegram from some mysterious and unnamed source ordering the re-appointment of Mrs. Kingsford to the Presidency of the London Lodge, closed for a time the rift in that body's ranks between the Hermetist and the Buddhist sections. Although the message came through "Koot Hoomi", a letter from him to the members declared it to be "the express wish of the Chohan himself" (M.L., P. 398). A month later the advice of the telegram was admitted to be an "unusual, not to say arbitrary interference with the reserved elective rights of a Branch" (M.L., P. 4o6), and a decision by ballot was recommended in its stead. Nevertheless, the precedent of the telegram was remembered and followed in a later crisis' when the Presidency of the parent society was involved. In 1908, Colonel Olcott, Madame Blavatsky's successor, lay paralysed and awaiting his end. The Master K.H. ,so we have it in the words of Annie Besant appeared at his bedside of Olcott and "ordered him to nominate me to the Presidency". This alleged visitation took place seven years after the death of Madame Blavatsky. One begins to see that there is scarcely a limit to what a mythical Master can do, so long as it is something that his credulous disciples can desire and believe. Another example promulgated on behalf of the Maha-Chohan at Kensington Town Hall on October 12, 1925, the that time President of the TS announced ; "In the realm of psychology, the doctrine of the "Seven Principles of Man". first educed with tortuous efforts from ancient Indian books, and passed on for publication to Mr. Sinnett in the flimsies of the 'eighties, finally became the stock-in trade of later teachers. Although the early Upanishads and philosophical Sutras of the Indians had speculated on the septenary doctrine for centuries" But it was not to them that Theosophists turned for support, but to the petty plagiarisms of the Letters, afterwards condensed into the shilling Manuals of Leadbeater, Annie Besant, and many others since. In regard to Theology, later Theosophical writers have followed the Mahatmas' lead into a stifling fog of contradictory metaphysics. Beginning as Buddhists, they denied God; continuing as Hindus, they affirmed Him as the Parabrahm of the Vedantins. Today (Nov.14, 2002 ) the TS also states,,, in the name of the Masters and by their orders, a Theosophical Liberal Catholic Church, in which they celebrate the Mass and recite the Apostles' Creed. The reading of a telegram from some mysterious and unnamed source ordering the re-appointment of Mrs. Kingsford to the Presidency of the London Lodge, closed for a time the rift in that body's ranks between the Hermetist and the Buddhist sections. Although the message came through "Koot Hoomi", a letter from him to the members declared it to be "the express wish of the Chohan himself" (M.L., P. 398). A month later the advice of the telegram was admitted to be an "unusual, not to say arbitrary interference with the reserved elective rights of a Branch" (M.L., P. 4o6), and a decision by ballot was recommended in its stead. Nevertheless, the precedent of the telegram was remembered and followed in a later crisis' when the Presidency of the parent society was involved. In 1908, Colonel Olcott, Madame Blavatsky's successor, lay paralysed and awaiting his end. The Master K.H. ,so we have it in the words of Annie Besant appeared at his bedside of Olcott and "ordered him to nominate me to the Presidency". This alleged visitation took place seven years after the death of Madame Blavatsky. One begins to see that there is scarcely a limit to what a mythical Master can do, so long as it is something that his credulous disciples can desire and believe. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 19:44:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 03:44:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 73624 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 03:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 03:44:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 03:44:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 03:44:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:44:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Belief in the authority of the "Masters" in the ES today. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 894 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.28.27.3 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach The Mahatma Letters only began to appear after the migration to India in 1880, so that for five years the Society did not rest upon them in any architectonic sense. Its lowest literary stratum was in fact the "Luxor" Letters. A.P. Sinnett and his materially minded associates of the Indian services would never have been converted to a belief in pseudo-Himalayan marvels, nor would A. Besant have been drawn from atheism to credulity by reading for review The Secret Doctrine, had it not been based, as it professed to be, on the revelations of the writers of the Mahatma Letters. More than this: if we were to tell of the building up of the Society, stage by stage, and, especially, of the Esoteric Section- commonly known as the "E.S."-one can show that every member received into that select inner body was and is today still obliged to accept the authority of the Masters. From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 13 20:59:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 04:59:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 21854 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 04:59:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 04:59:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 04:59:10 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.d0.2fe20dfd (16781) for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:59:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:59:01 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/11/02 11:16:16 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Quoting from Dallas's post: > ><<"It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote >the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to >practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas >of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have >to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T >A & N. p. 189.]>> > >"Popularize" in that context brought to mind Leon's >models, among other things. That is, I tend to agree with >Leon that, by scientizing certain aspects of Theosophy, >(by using a popular language of the age), one might reach >those for whom other kinds of introductions to >Theosophic issues might be far less applealing. That's right. >On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: > >((((Mauri, I shouldn't say anything in response to Leon, >who is not even here to defend himself. But I feel the >need to at least say the following: > ><<subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion and >Philosophy?" >>> > >My response to this question is: > >Science stands for intellectual knowledge >Religion stands for faith Philosophy stands for >experiential knowledge > >All three are necessary lest Theosophy "be nothing more >than another religious dogma destined to die on the >vine?" Emphasizing intellectual knowledge alone will kill >Theosophy in only a few generations. It is already doing >so, and Theosophy is today in its last gasp because of its >over-emphasis on intellectualism. The "head doctrine" is >intellectual knowledge, the "heart doctrine" is >experiential knowledge and the one will get us nowhere >without the other. >>>))))))) All I can say in response to this is; "All that goes without saying." But, if being a well rounded theosophist requires a balance of all three aspects -- I haven't found one single teacher (in more than 50 years of searching) who could show me (starting from my own position on the path and my own propensities for learning) the perfect way to understand and practice each direction in this modern age. So I was forced to learn the "head doctrine" from one teacher, the "heart doctrine" from another, and then had to find out for myself the rest of the "intellectual" and "experiential" knowledge I needed to gain the "faith" that when I arrived at "self realization" or oneness with the Supreme Spirit, I would have the ability to carry out the Bodhisattva work without having to ask anyone else what there was to do or say to any person in accordance with his/her degree of understanding, his/her current state of consciousness, and his/her immediate psychological, emotional, physical and/or spiritual needs. But this wasn't all that difficult. Amazingly, I was lucky enough to find out about 30 years ago that all those separate teachers were speaking to me directly through HPB. All I had to do was hear them, study, concentrate, and follow their suggested paths of meditation (they offered me Patanjali and the Voice of the Silence to practice) -- while learning to supplement their teachings with the new knowledge of modern sciences and technologies (which governs our present lives) that HPB didn't have access to... And, as she advised me directly -- to "Write [my] own Secret Doctrine in the language of [my] age." So, after a few years of such study and meditation -- we were able to write, in one afternoom, the entire ABC theory and discourse (which, several years later was posted on my web site) -- and correlate it with all the head and heart doctrines of theosophy that are thoroughly explained in the original SD (with all its ancient scriptural references) and other writings of HPB and the Masters. So, what more (at least for me) was there to know or continue to practice? Think about this! Isn't it amazing how HPB managed to teach the heart doctrine while expounding the head doctrine, and managed to teach the head doctrine while expounding the heart doctrine? It's also amazing to me that, outside of a few theosophical teachers I've come across at the United Lodge of Theosophists over the past 50 odd years, I haven't found another who could match HPB's ability to do that. And, even then, none of them had enough scientific knowledge to fulfill my need to get into dialogues with trained scientists in many disciplines, and make my case for theosophy in their own jargon. Thus, as it is now, we (whenever I need the right words to explain a subtle point, I ask HPB ;-) do not teach any one method -- since we can only answer questions in the same framework that they are asked. So, for the scientifically minded, we can lead them to the theosophical synthesis through their interest in scientific and technical understandings. For the philosophically minded, we lead them there through their interest in thinking about the nature of things and their ontology's. For the religious minded, we can show them the proper path of meditative practices to awaken their inner understanding of the true nature of reality and their position in it. And for all of them, while we give them exactly what they ask for, we manage to show them the questions to ask themselves and, thereby, turn them toward whatever they are missing in the other directions of theosophical understanding and practice. >Leon wrote: <theosophy really is "more "realistically about"? >> > >As I see it, there would seem not to be any solution, or >"more realistic approach to Theosophy," that by-passes >anything that's relevant to a broader and lasting >understanding of Theosophy. In other words (?), >regardless of whichever doctrine or approach one might >be inclined to follow, if that approach is not wisely >enough balanced with aspects of intellect, faith, and >experience, the result might not be particularly >representative of "Theosophic progress" . . . I'm making >a "general comment," here, and not accusing anybody of >not being wise enough. We all seem to be "wise enough" >in our various "own ways," basically, often times, >but/"but" . . . Yes. But . . . What? Studying theosophy has nothing to do with results. One either needs to know, or not -- depending on where one stands on the road to enlightenment, and what the confusion is in one's mind. Wisdom is knowing what one needs to know or do. And that has to be left for individual choice. Each of us is on a different level of understanding and openness to new ideas. So, theosophy is as theosophy does. That's all there is to it. If you need the head doctrine to do better as a theosophist, then that is what you direct your questions and your studies toward. If you need to devote yourself to a higher power or principle, then that is the direction of your search. That's why it says in the Declaration of the United Lodge of Theosophists; "It regards as Theosophists all those in the true service of Humanity" ... And, "Welcomes . . . all those . . . who desire to fit themselves, by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach others" It's that "doing" (based on one's "knowing") that makes one a successful theosophist. And what we can learn intellectually (scientifically and philosophically) and religiously practice -- is what we need in order to make that action the best we possibly can do at the level we are presently at. Progress comes from just that -- without having to think about attaining anything for oneself. Practically, positively and hopefully, LHM >Speculatively, >Mauri From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 13 22:40:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 06:40:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 25529 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 06:40:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 06:40:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 06:40:53 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BB2A480467 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:40:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001b01c28ba8$0d082780$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <003601c287e4$0d1701a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <00de01c288dd$c025d510$cede603e@captain5jkmnop> <007601c288ed$1faaa920$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <000201c28916$f47eed40$aede603e@captain5jkmnop> Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:35:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all of you, You asked some questions. My Sufilight answers are given in the below. 1. Frank wrote: "Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism?" My Sufilight answer: Well, I think , that differs on how fearfull you are. To some the mere thought on races is quite enough. 2. Frank wrote: "I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters." My Sufilight answer: I can't really agree on that when we talk about all the Mahatma Letters and when they are read in the mode we call "Dead-letter" reading. (I.e. according to Blavatsky and her use of the '7keys' in for instance her book The Secret Doctrine, vol. 1, p.310-325). 3. Frank wrote: "Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > evolution?" My Sufilight answer: I havn't heard that view before ! Did I mention that in any of my e-mails? I would say that will depend on how these so-called Masters do mention their "ahead-ness", or if they are quoted properly and the like. REAL Mahatma Masters are not really racists in any ordinary term and use of that word. 4. Frank wrote: "Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism?" My Sufilight answer: I could guess, that some would think so if they read only excerpts of his scriptures. And not many read Nietzsche and he didn't promote a Theosophical Society - did he ? But you will have to ask people on that. But I think we should let poor Nietzsche get some peace. I think he needs it. 5. Frank wrote: "Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would that > be unjust to inferior or younger races?)" My Sufilight answer: What is this ? You must be joking Frank ! 6. Frank wrote: "Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults?" My Sufilgiht answer: Well,... It could be true ! 7. Frank wrote: Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? My Sufilight answer: I think the Shepard Christ would know, how to deal with that question ! I think you should know them on their fruits !!! That is maybe why one could think that some of the Mahatma Letters are either OLD, or publicized by some stupid ignorant careless Theosophists while the Letters weren't for public eyes because of use of "the 7 keys", OR or they were tampered with by a person ot two...OR ....? Anyway some of them are OLD compared with a "dead-letter" view. So I hold that at least one has been tampered with. The Mahatma Letters was for certain also created so that - some of - the Theosophists would stop their Ideology of "BLIND BELIEF". I hold, that THEY are a test for your capabilities to read the - "non-physical-files" or "libraries". The honest and true medtating neophyt or student will learn to access these "libraries". Sometimes students access them without knowing, that that is what they are doing. So Frank what are your views on the above. And to the readers feel free to do your best... from M. Sufilight with small bells transmitting sound in cosmos... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:29 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > True, too. But I agree with the Nazarene Master who taught: Someone must > bring temptation into the world, but be concerned that it's not you. > > Re the racism slanders: Every normal person knows that's all propaganda from > the Jesuits who can't life with an evolutionary sheme. > The more that I never heard from theosophic foes any useful definition what > racism is. > Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism? > I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters. > > Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > evolution? > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would that > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > Frank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:12 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > Hi Frank and all of you, > > But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate on the > dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which a "dead-letter" > reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters comparatively > easy could establish in a newcomers mind. > > from > M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From micforster@yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 23:10:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 07:10:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 56710 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 07:10:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 07:10:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13407.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 07:10:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.233.94] by web13407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:10:56 PST Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:10:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster With much debate about theosophy, races and the status of Indigenous Australians in modern Australia I thought it would be pertinent to share some statistics on the matter. The source of these statistics has come from the Australian Bureau of Statistics Australian Census Data 2001 and I have just included a few snipets of the findings from this address: http://ausissues.com/ausissues/AINews.nsf/0/66C31E7A2A9BD967CA256BDB00182C1F For detailed statistics go to this link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/ABS%40Census.nsf/343b70397d0e3967ca256b9d00208f91!OpenView The general trend is that as a race Indigenous Australians are doing relatively well, although their equal status with other non-Indigenous status is far from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal Australians were meant to naturally die out why are they still prospering today? One could reply that they have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and culture without any corruption. There is not one Indigenous Australian today who could claim that they do everything exactly as it was done in 1788. And in this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to antiquity. The stats: - In results from the 2001 Census of Population and Housing, 410,003 people (or 2.2% of the Australian population) are reported as being of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander origin, up 16% since the 1996 Census. (Estimates claim that at the time of European arrival there was approximately between 300,000 and 3 million Aboriginals in Australia with consensus at around 1 million.) - Natural increase (births and deaths) accounted for a 12% increase in the Indigenous population, with a further 4% increase due primarily to people who were not identified as Indigenous in the 1996 Census but are now identifying, or being identified as Indigenous in the 2001 Census. - The Indigenous population is relatively young compared to the non-Indigenous population, with more than half (58%) aged under 25 years, and only 11,437 people (3%) aged 65 or over. In contrast, the Australian population had a much higher proportion of older people (13% aged 65 or over), with only about one-third (35%) aged under 25 years. - Of the 108,069 Indigenous children aged 5 to 14 years in 2001, 87% were recorded as attending school, compared with 92% of all children in this age group. For young people aged 15-19 years, 46% of Indigenous youth were recorded as attending school compared with 70% of all Australians in this age group. This disparity in rates of attendance at secondary school is also reflected in the relatively low percentage of Indigenous Australians who had completed Year 12 (10%) compared with the rate for Year 12 completion in the total population (30%). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 00:04:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 08:04:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 88640 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 08:04:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 08:04:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 08:04:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 08:04:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:04:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3437 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Mic Foster:in this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to antiquity. Brian: In this sense "all" 19th century Europeans, and "all" 19 th century US Citizens have been "lost to lost to antiquity" to. --- In theos-talk@y..., Mic Forster wrote: > With much debate about theosophy, races and the status > of Indigenous Australians in modern Australia I > thought it would be pertinent to share some statistics > on the matter. The source of these statistics has come > from the Australian Bureau of Statistics Australian > Census Data 2001 and I have just included a few > snipets of the findings from this address: > > http://ausissues.com/ausissues/AINews.nsf/0/66C31E7A2A9BD967CA256 BDB00182C1F > > For detailed statistics go to this link: > > http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/ABS% 40Census.nsf/343b70397d0e3967ca256b9d00208f91!OpenView > > The general trend is that as a race Indigenous > Australians are doing relatively well, although their > equal status with other non-Indigenous status is far > from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal > Australians were meant to naturally die out why are > they still prospering today? One could reply that they > have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians > that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the > sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and > culture without any corruption. There is not one > Indigenous Australian today who could claim that they > do everything exactly as it was done in 1788. And in > this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to > antiquity. > > The stats: > > - In results from the 2001 Census of Population and > Housing, 410,003 people (or 2.2% of the Australian > population) are reported as being of Aboriginal and/or > Torres Strait Islander origin, up 16% since the 1996 > Census. (Estimates claim that at the time of European > arrival there was approximately between 300,000 and 3 > million Aboriginals in Australia with consensus at > around 1 million.) > > - Natural increase (births and deaths) accounted for a > 12% increase in the Indigenous population, with a > further 4% increase due primarily to people who were > not identified as Indigenous in the 1996 Census but > are now identifying, or being identified as Indigenous > in the 2001 Census. > > - The Indigenous population is relatively young > compared to the non-Indigenous population, with more > than half (58%) aged under 25 years, and only 11,437 > people (3%) aged 65 or over. In contrast, the > Australian population had a much higher proportion of > older people (13% aged 65 or over), with only about > one-third (35%) aged under 25 years. > > - Of the 108,069 Indigenous children aged 5 to 14 > years in 2001, 87% were recorded as attending school, > compared with 92% of all children in this age group. > For young people aged 15-19 years, 46% of Indigenous > youth were recorded as attending school compared with > 70% of all Australians in this age group. This > disparity in rates of attendance at secondary school > is also reflected in the relatively low percentage of > Indigenous Australians who had completed Year 12 (10%) > compared with the rate for Year 12 completion in the > total population (30%). > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 14 00:10:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 08:10:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 18552 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 08:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 08:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 08:10:43 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1ba.96c893c (3842) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:10:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ba.96c893c.2b04b480@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:10:40 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World A question about the text in ALL CAPS, and the still Fraudulant Mahatma Letters To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/12/02 11:26:38 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >But just like Leon Maurer who ofcourse claimed the messages from >Bhakti Anada Goswhami where a fake , he in turn couldn't answer any of >the issues Bhakti Anada Goswhami brought up and now as a revenge is >posting fake claims about Einstein and a non-existing web site. Ha, Ha. This is about as accurate as most of your other fantasies and opinionated remarks. When did I claim the messages from BAG were a fake? What issues did he (if he exists) bring up that I "couldn't answer"? And what fake claims about Einstein and a non existent web site did I make? Do these unfounded accusations make anyone believe that any of the other negative claims you make about HPB, theosophy and the Mahatma letters have any basis in facts? I think you have become so obsessed with your vendetta against theosophy and HPB that you will say anything, no matter how far from truth or reality to back up your imagined omniscience about matters concerni ng theosophical history and proving the falsity of its teachings. Your black brush is painting much too wide a swath, and is beginning to make less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. And, by the way, what makes BAG an "authority" on anything? LHM --------Original Message----------- In a message dated 11/12/02 11:26:38 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Theosophical Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell: "who wrote the text ALL >IN CAPS at the beginning of this posting?: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8477 > >Brian : I mentioned three times on this list that the letter was send to >me by someone who was reading the postings on theos talk and writing >me privately about it. I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this obviously >expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the identity. This was >not difficult to do since I agree on almost all counts whit what Bhakti >Ananda wrote to me, in fact already 3 years ago during my private >correspondence with a Theosophist I respect, Steve Stubbs I kept >repeating the same question: > > "where is the information in the texts themselves that show they are >authentic, and are what they claim to be ?" > >But just like Leon Maurer who ofcourse claimed the messages from >Bhakti Anada Goswhami where a fake , he in turn couldn't answer any of >the issues Bhakti Anada Goswhami brought up and now as a revenge is >posting fake claims about Einstein and a non-existing web site. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be capable to >address ANY of the genuine issuis brought up by BAG. Meaning one must >conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a cococted >fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since BAG has come >forward and identified himself, I have placed two of his letters >On-line: > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > And pulling the all together in a few words one maybe can say: > >Does it ring a bell? > >Let us think: > >Philosophy (of the ancient Upanishats, Greeks). > >Theology (of medieval Church). > >Theosophy (of the 19th century). > >It is chemistry time! > >Philosophy + Theology = Theosophy + ? > >Guess what! > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 00:28:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 08:28:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 27198 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 08:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 08:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 08:28:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 08:28:00 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:27:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001b01c28ba8$0d082780$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6011 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach "Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism?" My Sufilight answer: Well, I think , that differs on how fearfull you are. Brian: That sounds like some specially created wisdom, of someone who refuses to study. Certainly there are many easy to read books on the subject, plus many academic studies, which show what constitutes different forms of racism. Do racists want to kill or harm other people, in 99.99% of the case, never ! Are all 100% nevertheless racist , yes ! Even 99.99% of the Nazi's during WWII would never want to kill any Jews, and the 00,01% who did, didn't feel they where "racist" (read Eichmans Diary's !) they merely wanted to "help humanity !" Of course on their terms. Brian, again so heretic. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi Frank and all of you, > > You asked some questions. > My Sufilight answers are given in the below. > > > 1. Frank wrote: > "Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism?" > My Sufilight answer: > Well, I think , that differs on how fearfull you are. > To some the mere thought on races is quite enough. > > 2. Frank wrote: > "I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters." > My Sufilight answer: > I can't really agree on that when we talk about all the Mahatma Letters and > when they are read in the mode > we call "Dead-letter" reading. > (I.e. according to Blavatsky and her use of the '7keys' in for instance her > book The Secret Doctrine, vol. 1, p.310-325). > > 3. Frank wrote: > "Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > > evolution?" > My Sufilight answer: > I havn't heard that view before ! Did I mention that in any of my e- mails? > I would say that will depend on how these so-called Masters do mention their > "ahead-ness", or if they are quoted properly and the like. REAL Mahatma > Masters are not really racists in any ordinary term and use of that word. > > 4. Frank wrote: > "Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism?" > My Sufilight answer: > I could guess, that some would think so if they read only excerpts of his > scriptures. And not many read Nietzsche and he didn't promote a Theosophical > Society - did he ? > But you will have to ask people on that. But I think we should let poor > Nietzsche get some peace. > I think he needs it. > > > 5. Frank wrote: > "Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would > that > > be unjust to inferior or younger races?)" > My Sufilight answer: > What is this ? You must be joking Frank ! > > 6. Frank wrote: > "Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults?" > My Sufilgiht answer: > Well,... It could be true ! > > 7. Frank wrote: > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > My Sufilight answer: > I think the Shepard Christ would know, how to deal with that question ! > I think you should know them on their fruits !!! > > That is maybe why one could think that some of the Mahatma Letters are > either OLD, > or publicized by some stupid ignorant careless Theosophists while the > Letters weren't for public eyes because of use of "the 7 keys", OR or they > were tampered with by a person ot two...OR ....? > Anyway some of them are OLD compared with a "dead-letter" view. > So I hold that at least one has been tampered with. > > The Mahatma Letters was for certain also created so that - some of - the > Theosophists would stop their Ideology of "BLIND BELIEF". I hold, that THEY > are a test for your capabilities to read the - "non-physical-files" or > "libraries". The honest and true medtating neophyt or student will learn to > access these "libraries". > Sometimes students access them without knowing, that that is what they are > doing. > > > So Frank what are your views on the above. > And to the readers feel free to do your best... > > > > > from > M. Sufilight with small bells transmitting sound in cosmos... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Reitemeyer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:29 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > > True, too. But I agree with the Nazarene Master who taught: Someone must > > bring temptation into the world, but be concerned that it's not you. > > > > Re the racism slanders: Every normal person knows that's all propaganda > from > > the Jesuits who can't life with an evolutionary sheme. > > The more that I never heard from theosophic foes any useful definition > what > > racism is. > > Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism? > > I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters. > > > > Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > > evolution? > > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? (Would > that > > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > > Frank > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:12 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE > > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > > > > Hi Frank and all of you, > > > > But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate on the > > dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which a "dead-letter" > > reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters > comparatively > > easy could establish in a newcomers mind. > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 14 01:27:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 09:27:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 83242 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 09:27:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 09:27:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 09:27:03 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.113.1a8dbf32 (3956) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:26:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <113.1a8dbf32.2b04c660@cs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:26:56 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: A Statement by Tillett--the usual suspects To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, Personally I would be more inclined to Radha's instinct as she most likely had a well established "Rapport" with Damodor and as in many other instances was noted to have perception of changes distant to her of those she maintained this unique bond with, allthough some have posted: where is the body of Damador? Well that is fine and in terms of Radha's position it strengthens her perception. Also somewhere I seem to recall it is said that a chela called to further training and Iniation may literally disappear to the outside world of past acquaintances. John From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 14 01:51:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 09:51:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 17686 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 09:51:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 09:51:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 09:51:46 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.145.29a5ee3 (3956) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:51:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <145.29a5ee3.2b04cc30@cs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:51:44 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: RE:: A Precipitation Primer To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, About 2 years ago I mentioned in posting on topics such as this my own sentiments as regards the Book "H.P. Blavatsky, Tibet and Tulku" by Geoffrey A Barborka due to the many at length decriptions about by what means the Mahatma Letters and other events associated with the experiences of the first ring people and H.P.B., the remarkable thing is virtually no one makes reference to it or it's contents. I beleive one list member did respond by stating Barborka was "unreliable", but no comments yet after 2 years as to a criticle look at it's contained explanations. Now one has to wonder about that. John From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 14 03:03:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 11:03:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 63566 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 11:02:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 11:02:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 11:02:59 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.112.1a5b5fa5 (3964) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:02:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <112.1a5b5fa5.2b04dcdf@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:02:55 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dallas,=20 Thank you for your =08carefully considered response to my question concerni= ng=20 the word "Synthesis" -- as used by HPB in the subtitle of the SD. I agree= =20 with your correlation's of the fundamental triune monad with all its=20 secondary six fold derivatives, based on its =08equally fundamental interna= l=20 duality=08 -- as pictured symbolically in my diagrams of the initial univer= sal=20 fie=08=08=08ld involution. See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html These diagrams are consistent with the cyclic expansion of the phenomenal=20 Universe as described ("Wheels within Wheels") in the SD, and also with the= =20 formula for the three stages of initial Cosmogenesis given in the book of=20 Dzyan, "The Three, The one, the Four, The One, The Five, The Twice Seven, T= he=20 Sum Total."=20 Note: (in the primal chakrafield diagram) the fourteen involved "coadunate= =20 but not consubstantial" inner enfolded fields, within fields, within fields= =20 -- with their seven zero-point crossovers representing the seven chakras or= =20 plexuses corresponding to the seven fold centers of consciousness within th= e=20 human form, as well as with the initial seven conscious Dhyan Chohans, or= =20 Architects of the Universe -- "As above, so below.")=20=20 We might also using "synthesis" be able to deduce from this diagram the=20 necessity of "seven rounds and races" -- as they correspond with each stage= =20 of Cosmic, galactic, solar, planetary, and human evolution.=20 As an added help in understanding the deep meanings of the word Synthesis a= s=20 HPB understood it; Here is how the American Heritage Dictionary defines it. syn-the-sis n. pl. syn-the-ses=20 1. a. The combining of separate elements or substances to form a coherent=20 whole. b. The complex whole so formed.=20 2. Chemistry Formation of a compound from simpler compounds or elements.=20 3. Philosophy a. Reasoning from the general to the particular; logical=20 deduction.=20 b. The combination of thesis and antithesis in the Hegelian dialectical=20 process=20 whereby a new and higher level of truth is produced.=20 [Latin collection from Greek sunthesis from suntithenai to put together sun= -=20 syn- tithenai to put; See dhT- in Indo-European Roots.]=20 syn2the=E2=80=A2sist n. (Etymology clipped) In a message dated 11/12/02 9:42:55 PM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Synthesis gather all factors together and examines their cooperative >relationships. > >Analysis discusses and speculates on their differences. > >Both systems are needed. They are polar opposites. > >They are the tools of the active mind of man which seeks to understand >things as they are and as they might become. > >If one adds the fact that there are three main levels of universal >BEING,. we can see why ancient Hindu Philosophy was considered to be >6-fold (the 7th being the synthesis of the others 6) > >The three divisions > >1 the SPIRITUAL BI-Polar: ATMA BUDDHI > >2 the Intellectual " MIND KAMA (Desire and Emotion) > >3 The Physical " ASTRAL physical matter > >Running through thee are the laws of logical thinking > >Best wishes, > >Dallas > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >-----Original Message----- >From: leonmaurer >Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:49 PM >To: >Subject: Re: Theosophical Fundamentalism > >In a message dated 11/11/02 11:38:25 AM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: > >>--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >>> Have you any idea why the SD was subtitled, "A Synthesis of >>Science, Religion and Philosophy?" >> > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 04:31:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 12:31:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 68155 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from pool0177.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.177] helo=earthlink) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CJ1J-0003Xc-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:22:53 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement Part II Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:18:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 THEOSOPHY AND THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT Part II ------------------------------------ "There is a very great difference between the Theosophical Movement and any Theosophical Society. The Movement is moral, ethical, spiritual, universal, invisible save in effect, and continuous. A Society formed for theosophical work is a visible organization, an effect, a machine for conserving energy and putting it to use; It is not nor can it be universal, nor is it continuous... The Theosophical Movement being continuous, it is to be found at all times and in all nations. Wherever thought has struggled to be free, wherever spiritual ideas, as opposed to forms and dogmatism, have been promulgated, there the great movement is to be discerned." WQJ - "The Theosophical Movement" WQJ Articles, II, p. 124 "But let no man set up a popery instead of Theosophy, as this would be suicidal and has ever ended most fatally. We are all fellow-students, more or less advanced; but no one belonging to the T.S. ought to count himself as more than that, at best, a pupil-teacher--one who has no right to dogmatize." - - 1888 -- --HPB "Five Messages Amer. Theosophists," p. 4 "It is just because we have devoted our whole life to the research of truth...that we never accept on faith any authority upon any question whatsoever; nor, pursuing, as we do, Truth and progress through a full and fearless enquiry, untrammeled by any consideration, would we advise any of our friends to do otherwise." --HPB "Notes on 'A Land of Mystery'" HPB Art III 342-3 Theosophist, Vol. 1, p. 278-9 "Be what he may, once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought--Godward--he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with "an inspiration of his own" to solve the universal problems." -- HPB " What are the Theosophists ?" Theosophist, Oct. 1879. HPB Art. I p. 52 "It has always been held that a true Theosophist must have no personal ends to serve, no favourite hobby to propagate, no special doctrine to enforce or to defend. For, to merit the honorable title of Theosophist one must be an altruist, above all; one ever ready to help equally foe or friend; to act, rather than to speak; and urge others to action, while never losing an opportunity to work himself. But if no true Theosophist will ever dictate to his fellow, brother or neighbor, what this one should believe or disbelieve in, nor force him to act on lines which may be distasteful to him, however proper they may appear to himself, there are other duties which he has to attend to: a) to warn his brother of any danger the latter may fail to see; and b) to share his knowledge--if he has acquired such--with those who have been less fortunate than himself in opportunities for acquiring it... Therefore, we say to-day to all: "If you would really help the noble cause--you must do so now; for a few years more and your, as well as our efforts, will be in vain."... Unless we succeed in placing the T.S...on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called "Failure." ...Thus will have ingloriously perished the only association whose aims, rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail--if strictly carried out--to the innermost, fundamental thought of every great Adept Reformer, the beautiful dream of a Universal Brotherhood Of Man." HPB "Why the Vahan ?" Dec. 1890 HPB Art. I 284-5 Authority in Theosophy "The Authority which we recognize is not what men term authority, which comes from outside and which demands obedience, but an internal recognition of the value of that which flows through any given point, focus, or individual. This is the authority of one's Self-discrimination, intuition, the highest intellection. If we follow what we recognize in that way, and still find it good, we naturally keep our faces in that direction. This means no slavish following of any person--a distinction which some are unable to grasp. H.P.B. wrote: "Do not follow me or my path. Follow the path I show, the Masters who are behind"...the most and best anyone can do is to follow the lines laid down by H.P.B. regardless of any others." F. P. p. 372-3 [ Reminiscences - C. Wachtmeister p. 122 ] "It is above everything important to keep in mind that no theosophical book acquires the least additional value from pretended authority." S D I p. xix "Its [Theosophical] doctrines, if seriously studied, call forth, by stimulating one's reasoning powers and awakening the inner in the animal man, every hitherto dormant power for good in us, and also the perception of the true and the real, as opposed to the false and the unreal. "The Society, as such, has no authorities. It was founded with the object of breaking down that reliance upon "authority" which has been the bane of man for ages, and it would be strange now in we could admit authority for theosophists...WE are engaged in trying to develop a truer appreciation of the Light of Life which is hidden in every man, and so the "final authority" is the man himself." -- WQJ "Authority," The Path, Nov. 1887, WQJ Art. II 543, 575 "Experience has at last prompted the adoption of a better working system, one embodying the true spirit of equality and parliamentary justice more than the one in vogue. As an autonomous American section had been in existence and successfully working for two years, and a British section had just been formed in London, the fair thing was evidently to extend the sectional scheme to all countries, keeping the Head-quarters as the hub, and the President Founder as the axle, of this wheel of many spokes under the car of Progress. [ Follows a synopsis of the new and revised Rules for this. ] ...At the same time, these and all future sections are or will be inseparably united with the central point where the President Founder represents the executive authority of the entire undivided body known as the Theosophical Society." [ From the "General Report of the 13th Convention and Report of the T.S. at the H.Q., Adyar, Madras, December 27th - 29th 1888. ] Lucifer Vol III, pp. 495-6 "Look around you, and behold our Universal Brotherhood so called ! The Society founded to remedy the glaring evils of Christianity, to shun bigotry and intolerance, cant, and superstition and to cultivate real universal love extending even to the dumb brute, what has it become in Europe and America in these 11 years of trial [1886] ? In one thing only we have succeeded ...we have made away with every dogma and are now justly and wisely trying to make away with the last vestige of even nominal authority..." -- HPB The Theosophical Mahatmas" The Path, Dec. 1886. HPB Articles I 305 "...the undersigned [ HPB ] accepts for her views and walk in life no authority dead or living, no system of philosophy or religion but one--namely, the esoteric teachings of ethics and philosophy of those she calls Masters--answers have to be given strictly in accordance with these teachings...his first duty is to be ever ready to help if he can, without stopping to philosophize...there may be those who are starving for truth, in every department of the science of nature, and who consequently are yearning to learn the esoteric views about "cosmology, the evolution of man and of the Universe." ... "...what I do believe in is: 1) the unbroken oral teachings revealed by living divine men during the infancy of mankind to the elect among men; 2) that it has reached us unaltered; and 3) that the Masters are thoroughly versed in the science based on such uninterrupted teaching." -- HPB HPB Articles, I pp. 459-61 "The tree is known by its fruits; and as all Theosophists have to be judged by their deeds and not by what they write or say, so all Theosophical books must be accepted on their merits, and not according to any claim to authority which they may put forward." -- HPB Key to Theosophy, p. 300 Autonomy and Interdependence "...Master said to me. He [Olcott]...the Society has outgrown him. Let him remain a nominal President--but let us active Presidents--one in India, the other in Europe--the third in America, begin working with that object. You alone ought to become the President in chief of all the European Societies, and for life--who ever else may be the year President of the L.L., or the Paris, or German Th. Societies. Such is the desire of my Master--I know it. For myself--I am resolved to remain sub rosa. I can do far more by remaining in the shadow than by becoming prominent once more in the movement." HPB to APS p. 111-12 "We have a reform in hand...what do you think of the idea of placing the Branches on quite a different footing ?... What I want is simply a paper on the advisability of remodeling the present formation of branches and their privileges. Let them be all chartered and initiated as heretofore by the Parent Society, and depend of it nominally. At the same time, let every Branch before it is chartered, choose some one object to work for, an object, naturally in sympathy with the general principles of the T.S.--yet a distinct and definite object of its own, whether in the religious, educational or philosophical line. This would allow the Society a broader margin for its general operations; more real, useful work would be done; and, as every Branch would be so to say, independent in its modus operandus, there would remain less room for complaint and par consequence--for interference. At any rate this hazy sketch, I hope, will find an excellent soil to germinate and thrive in..." M L pp 317-8 "...many are the things we shall have to talk over and foremost of all the Mahatma's desire that the Branches of the T.S. especially the L.L. [London Lodge] and the European should be made all autonomous under one President. A sudden and efficient stop must be made to "President's Camps," Poona, and "President's Camp, Lahore" and "Special orders" and all that sort of thing. Ah well, who loves the Cause--has to sacrifice himself, and I am ever ready. Au revoir. " HPB Letters to APS, p. 129 "Explain to Olcott matters and claim from him and Council, that which you of the L. L. virtually have: complete autonomy for the European Branches, as many as there are groups of the same way of thinking. Theosophy was founded as a nucleus for Univ. Brotherhood. So was Christ. The latter was a complete failure and is a sham, only because the R. Latin Church claims infallibility, absolute authority...Our Society was established to bring together people as searchers after truth, independent thinkers, one having no right to force his opinion on the other: or meddle in his religious views." HPB Let to APS, p. 221 "I must ask you to remember that the new Society shall not be allowed to disconnect itself with the parent Body, though you are at liberty to manage your affairs in your own way and without fearing the slightest interference from its President so long as you do not violate the general Rules." M L , p. 16 "...you will have--in case you organize--to put up with Olcott at the head of the Parent Society, hence--nominally the president of all the existing Branches. But he will be no more your "leader" than he is the leader of the British Theos. Society, which has its own President, its own Rules and Bye-laws. You will be chartered by him, and that's all...yet he has no right to interfere either with your administration or modes of action, so long as these do not clash with the general Rules, and he certainly has neither the ability nor the desire of being your leader." M L , pp. 20-1 "When the ancient founders of your philosophical schools came East, to acquire the lore of our predecessors, they filed no claims, except the single one of a sincere and unselfish hunger for the truth. If any now aspire to found new schools of science and philosophy the same plan will win--if the searchers have in them the elements of success...H.S.Olcott has been trying to convert each of the Indian Branches into such a school of research, but the capacity for sustained independent study for knowledge's sake is lacking, and must be developed..." M L, p. 342 "Solidarity of thought and action within the broad outline of the chief and general principles of the Society there must always be between the parent and Branch bodies; yet the latter must be allowed each their own independent action in everything that does not clash with those principles." M L , p. 318-9 "The Theosophical Society was constituted on the model of its mother country...they wanted to grant absolute equality in its laws to all religions so that all would support the State and all in their turn would be protected...each branch as well as each member, having the right to profess the religion and to study the sciences or philosophies it or he prefers, provided that the whole remains united by bonds of solidarity and fraternity--our Society may be truly called the "Republic of Conscience."... "All of us must work for the liberation of human thought, for the elimination of selfish and sectarian superstitions, and for the discovery of all the truths that are within the reach of the human mind. This goal cannot be attained with greater certainty than through the culture of solidarity on the plane of mental work. No honest worker, no serious seeker, has ever returned therefrom empty-handed..." --HPB "The New Cycle" La Revue Theosophique, March 21, 1889. HPB Articles I 402 "No true Theosophist...would consent to become the fetish of a fashionable doctrine, any more than he would make himself the slave of a decaying dead-letter system, the spirit from which has disappeared forever. Neither would he pander to anyone or anything, and therefore would always decline to show belief in that in which he does not, nor can he believe, which is lying to his own soul...we will keep to that pure ray "that comes from above," from the light of the "Ancient." --HPB "Dual Aspect of Wisdom", Lucifer, Sept. 1890, HPB Articles I 36-7 "If one criticism is hurtful, so is another; so also is every innovation, or even the presentation of some old thing under a new aspect, as both have necessarily to clash with the views of this, or another "authority."...criticism is the great benefactor of thought in general; and still more so of those men who never think for themselves but rely in everything upon acknowledged "authorities" and social routine. For what is an "authority" upon any question...No more...than a light streaming upon a certain object through one single, more or less wide, chink, and illuminating it from one side only. Such light, besides being the faithful reflector of the personal views of but one man--very often merely that of his special hobby--can never help in the examination of a question or a subject from all its aspects and sides...Criticism is the sole salvation from intellectual stagnation...(391)To reject the infallibility of a man of Science is not quite the same as to repudiate his learning. A specialist is one, precisely because he has some one specialty, and is therefore less reliable in other branches of Science, and even in the general appreciation of his own subject. Official school Science is based upon temporary foundations, so far...Truth belongs to all...excepting always those few special branches of knowledge which should be preserved ever secret, like those two-edged weapons that both kill and save..." - HPB Literary Jottings by "Unpopular Philosopher" Lucifer, Sept. 1892 (posthumous) HPB Art. II 389-391 "It is our duty, as it is that of physical Science...to throw light on facts in Nature hitherto surrounded by the darkness of ignorance...But natural Sciences are only one aspect of Science and Truth. Psychological and moral Science, or Theosophy, the knowledge of divine truth, wherever found, are still more important in human affairs, and real Science should not be limited simply to the physical aspect of life and nature. Science is an abstract of every fact, a comprehension of every truth within the scope of human research and intelligence.." -- H.P.Blavatsky "What's in a Name ?" Lucifer, Sept. 1887, HPB Art III 374-5 [ HPB on criticism of Isis and the Secret Doctrine ] "We are quite ready to admit the faults charged...that it is badly arranged, discursive, over-burdened with digressions into by-ways of mythology, etc., But then it is neither a philosophical system nor the Doctrine, called secret or esoteric, but only a record of a few of its facts and a witness to it. It has never claimed to be the full exposition of the system...in its totality; a) because the writer does not boast of being a great Initiate... b) because had she been one, she would have divulged still less. It has never been contemplated to make of the sacred truths an integral system for the ribaldry and sneers of the profane and iconoclastic public... The Secret Doctrine merely asserts that a system, known as the Wisdom Religion, the work of generations of adepts and seers, the sacred heirloom of pre-historic times--actually exists, though hitherto preserved in the greatest secrecy by the present Initiates... Giving a few fragments only, it there shows how these explain the religious dogmas of the present day, and how they might serve Western religions, philosophies and science, as sign-posts along the untrodden paths of discovery... No new philosophy is set up in the Secret Doctrine, only the hidden meaning of some of the religious allegories of antiquity is given...and the common source is pointed out...however divergent...the agreement between all becomes perfect, so soon as the esoteric or inner side of these beliefs and their symbology is examined... It is also maintained that its doctrines and sciences, which form an integral cycle of universal cosmic facts and metaphysical axioms and truths, represent a complete and unbroken system; and that he who is brave and persevering enough, ready to crush the animal in himself, and forgetting the human self, sacrifices it to his Higher Ego, can always find his way to become initiated into these mysteries. This is all the Secret Doctrine claims." --HPB "The Babel of Modern Thought," LUCIFER, Jan., Feb. 1891, HPB Articles III 43-44 "If any authority pertains to the Secret Doctrine, it must be sought inside, not outside. It must rest on its comprehensiveness, its completeness, its continuity and reasonableness; in other words, on its philosophical synthesis, a thing missed alike by the superficial and the contentious, by the indolent, the superstitious, and the dogmatic." -- WQJ "The Synthesis of Occult Science," WQJ Art I 36 [ Dr. Fisher quoted by HPB in Isis: "One of the most formidable obstacles to the advancement of science...has ever been a blind submission to authority...To untrammel the mind from the influence of mere authority, that it may have free scope in its investigation of facts and laws which exist and are established in nature, is the grand antecedent necessary to scientific discovery and permanent progress." Dr. Fisher: "Trans. of Medical Science" Isis Unveiled I 396 Unity and the T.S. and Theosophy the Bond "There is no longer a 'Parent Society;' it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous...such is the real state of things." - HPB [ Lucifer, Vol. 4, p. 508 ] Thy. Mag. Vol 6, p. 477 "We are now to be like the Freemasons, who are one and all, in every part of the world, Freemasons. Yet each Grand Lodge is independent, autonomous...and yet every member a Freemason and traveling into every Lodge if he follows the rule. "You are quite right that Autonomy was agreed on as the method. There would be very great clumsiness and friction in being part of the American T.S. Each great territory, like an individual, stands on its own feet, while all are united in aim...keep in mind that what we ought to work for is to bring the truths of Theosophy before the greatest number of persons and not that we seek office or honour, then our best efforts must have good results." -- WQJ" Letters That Have Helped Me, p. 171 The period which we have now reached in this cycle that will close between 1897-98 is, and will continue to be, one of great conflict and continued strain...No opportunity will be lost of sowing dissension, of taking advantage of mistaken and false moves, of instilling doubt, of augmenting difficulties, of breathing suspicions, so that by any and every means the unity of the Society may be broken and the ranks of our Fellows thinned and thrown into disarray. Never has it been more necessary for the members of the T.S. to lay to heart the old parable of the bundle of sticks than it is at the present time: divided, they will inevitably be broken, one by one; united, there is no force on earth able to destroy our Brotherhood ...Self-watchfulness is never more necessary than when a personal wish to lead, and wounded vanity, dress themselves in the peacock's feathers of devotion and altruistic work; but at the present crisis of the Society a lack of self-control and watchfulness may become fatal in every case...If every fellow in the Society were content to be an impersonal force for good, careless of praise or blame so long as he subserved the purposes of the Brotherhood, the progress made would astonish the World and place the Ark of the T.S. out of danger. Take for your motto in conduct..."Peace with all who love Truth in sincerity." -- HPB Five Messages, (1891) p. 29 In 1885 when HPB was exiled from Adyar, the Master wrote: "The Society has liberated itself from our grasp and influence, and we have let it go...It is now a soulless corpse, a machine run so far well enough, but which will fall to pieces when...Out of the three objects, the second alone is attended to; it is no longer a Brotherhood, nor a body over the face of which broods the Spirit beyond the Great Range." [ Theosophist, October 1907 ] Theosophy Mag. Vol. 6, p. 477 "Let us then press forward together in the great work of the real Theosophical Movement, which is aided by working organizations, but is above them all...We will then each and all be members of that Universal Lodge of Free and Independent Theosophists which embrace every friend of the human race." -- W. Q. Judge Letter to European Convention 1895 from the Theosophical Society in America -- Path Vol. 10, p. 136 ======================================================= ADDENDUM On Autonomy [ The following quotations deserve their place here in view of the assertion still made in the T S, Adyar that The American Theosophists and Mr. W.Q.Judge "seceded" from the T.S. --DTB ] A 1893 Letter from Col. Olcott Mr. A.E.S. Smythe, President TS in Canada, wrote the Editors of Theosophy [ reported on p. 11 of the March 15th issue of Canadian Theosophist, for 1923, Vol. 4, # 1 ] quoting a letter addressed in 1893 by Col. Olcott, P.T.S. to Mr. Judge in which he read the following : "If you want separate Theosophical Societies made out of the Sections, have them by all means. I offered this years ago to H.P.B. and even to A.P.S." In the Canadian Theosophist, Vol. X, July 1929, pp 156-7 Mr. A. E. S. Smythe, President wrote: "The splitting of the Society was the act of Colonel Olcott who hated Judge. Judge had expected that the Colonel would recognize the autonomous T.S. in America and affiliate it with Adyar, but Olcott changed his mind and refused to do this, and Judge...was much disappointed with the Colonel's refusal. I was in the office at 144 Madison Avenue when Judge received a letter from Olcott postmarked and stamped from Spain, and Judge remarked 'Now everything will be all right.' But the letter was not what Judge expected and his disappointment was very obvious. This phase of the situation has never been explained, and I have never been able to learn whether Judge counted with warrant on Olcott's support, or whether it was really a right-about-face on Olcott's part, for Judge certainly expected Olcott to support him. Judge had collected $ 17,000.00 in America and sent it to Olcott when the Adyar treasurer embezzled that amount...Judge and Besant were all right till H.P.B. died and we can honour and depend upon them up till that point. After May 8, 1891 we have had to depend upon ourselves and should be charitable to our neighbours. -- A.E.S.Smythe. " [ From HPB: "Why I do not Return to India" -- letter April, 1890 "...the name alone of the holy Masters...has wrought a mighty change for the better in your land [India]...so long as I remained at Adyar, things went on smoothly enough, because one or other of the Masters was almost constantly present among us, and their spirit ever protected the T.S. from real harm...[1884] It was during that time and Colonel Olcott's absence in Burma, that the seeds of all future strifes, and...disintegration of the T.S., were planned by our enemies... I say, at that critical moment, if the members of the Society, and especially its leaders at Adyar, Hindu and European, had stood together as one man, firm in their conviction of the reality and power of the Masters, Theosophy would have come out more triumphantly than ever, and none of their fears would have ever been realized...In spite of my protests, I was hurried away from Headquarters...and immediately intrigues and rumors began...it was rumored that I had been abandoned by the Masters, been disloyal to Them...I was accused of being, at best, a hallucinated medium, who had mistaken "spooks" for living Masters...others declared that the real H.P.Blavatsky was dead...and that the form had been forthwith seized upon by a Dugpa Chela...I was a witch, a sorceress...In fact the powers of psychology attributed to me by my enemies...are so great that they alone would have made of me a most remarkable Adept--independently of any Masters or Mahatmas. with the exception of Colonel Olcott, everyone seemed to banish the Masters from their thoughts and Their spirit from Adyar...since my departure...the activity of the movement there gradually slackened... Acting under Master's orders I began a new movement in the West on the original lines; I founded Lucifer, and the Lodge which bears my name...I learned that I was once more wanted in India--at any rate by some. But the invitation came too late; neither would my doctor permit it, nor can I, if I would remain true to my life-pledge and vows, now live at the Headquarters from which the Masters and Their spirit are virtually banished. The presence of Their portraits will not help; They are a dead letter...no advice of mine on occult lines seems likely to be accepted, as the fact of my relations with the Masters is doubted, even totally denied by some...the spread of Theosophy and of the T.S. in the West, during the last three years, has been extraordinary...I was enabled and encouraged by the devotion of an ever increasing number of members to the Cause and to Those who guide it, to establish an Esoteric Section, in which I can teach something of what I have learned to those who have confidence in me, and who prove this by their disinterested work for Theosophy and the T.S. (113) The only claim, therefore, which India could ever have upon me would be strong only in proportion to the activity of the Fellows there for Theosophy and their loyalty to the Masters. Thenceforth let it be clearly understood that the rest of my life is devoted only to those who believe in the Masters, and are willing to work for Theosophy as They understand it, and for the T.S. on the lines upon which They originally established it. -- HPB "Why I do not Return to India," [ This letter from HPB was written and sent with B. Keightley, April 1890. Published in Theosophist, January 1922. HPB Articles, Vol. I, pp 108 - 114 ] "...the Esoteric Section has nothing whatever to do with the T.S., its Council or officers. It is a Section entirely apart from the exoteric body, and independent of it. H.P.B. alone being responsible for its members...the E.S. as a body, owes no allegiance whatever to the T.S., as a Society, least of all to Adyar...H.P.B. is loyal to the death to the Theosophical CAUSE, and those great Teachers whose philosophy can alone bind the whole of Humanity into one Brotherhood...Therefore the degree of her sympathies with the "T.S. and Adyar" depends upon the degree of the loyalty of that Society to the CAUSE. Let it break away from the original lines and show disloyalty in its policy to the CAUSE and the original programme of the Society, and H.P.B. calling the T.S. disloyal, will shake it off like dust from her feet. And what does "loyalty to Adyar" mean, in the name of all wonders? What is Adyar, apart from that CAUSE and the two (not one Founder) who represent it ? ... "There is no longer a "Parent Society;" it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical societies, all autonomous, as are the States of America, and all under one Head President, who, together with H.P.Blavatsky, will champion the Cause against the whole world. Such is the real state of things... "....Madame Blavatsky does not owe the slightest allegiance to a Council which is liable at any moment to issue silly and untheosophical ukases...in a Society which owes its life to them [she and Col. Olcott], and for which they are both karmically responsible...she will ever protest against the decision of the General Council, were it composed of Archangels and Dhyan Chohans themselves, if their decisions seem to her unjust or untheosophical, or fails to meet with the approval of the majority of the Fellows. No more than H.P.Blavatsky has the President Founder the right to exercise autocracy or papal powers...It is the two Founders and especially the President, who have virtually sworn allegiance to the Fellows, whom they have to protect, and teach those who want to be taught, and not to tyrannize and rule over them." -- H P B "A Puzzle from Adyar" Lucif, Aug. 1889 HPB Articles I 219-220 "...Sections and Branches like the "London Lodge" and others which are autonomous...Is not the Blavatsky Lodge, like the London, Dublin, or any other "Lodge," a branch of, and a Theosophical Society ?" HPB Articles I 221 On the Theosophical Society -- Its Future "The Theosophical Society was chosen as the cornerstone, the foundation of the future religions of humanity. To achieve the proposed object, a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the low, the alpha and the omega of society, was determined upon." Lucifer, Aug. 1896 "The Great Master's Letter" Theos. Art & Notes, p. 190 "The Society will never perish as an institution, although branches and individuals in it may." M L . p. 245 "The Society in India is flourishing and can never die [ see also p. 366 ]. In America it is becoming a grand movement." -- HPB M L . p. 483 In 1885 when HPB was exiled from Adyar, the Master wrote: "The Society has liberated itself from our grasp and influence, and we have let it go...It is now a soulless corpse, a machine run so far well enough, but which will fall to pieces when...Out of the three objects, the second alone is attended to; it is no longer a Brotherhood, nor a body over the face of which broods the Spirit beyond the Great Range." [ Theosophist, October 1907 ] Theosophy Mag. Vol. 6, p. 477 "There is no longer a 'Parent Society;' it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous...such is the real state of things." - HPB [ Lucifer, Vol. 4, p. 508 ] Thy. Mag. Vol 6, p. 477 [ As the President of the freshly constituted Theosophical Society in America, Mr. Judge wrote: "Let us then press forward together in the great work of the real Theosophical Movement, which is aided by working organizations, but is above them all...We will then each and all be members of that Universal Lodge of Free and Independent Theosophists which embraces every friend of the human race." -- WQJ Letter to European Convention 1895 from the Theosophical Society in America -- Path Vol. 10, Masters on Theosophy & Universal Brotherhood The Master wrote to A.P.Sinnett: "Should we devote ourselves to teaching a few Europeans, fed on the fat of the land...the rationale of bell-ringing, cup-growing, spiritual telephone, etc., etc., and leave the teeming millions of the ignorant, of the poor and the despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take care of themselves, and of their hereafter, the best they know how? NEVER! Perish rather the Theosophical Society...than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of magic and a hall of Occultism. That we, the devoted followers of the spirit incarnate of absolute self-sacrifice, of philanthropy and divine kindness as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, to become the refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange idea...And it is we, the humble disciples of the perfect Lamas, who are expected to permit the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of Psychology. No ! No ! our brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task too heavy for him... To be true, religion and philosophy must offer the solution of every problem...there must be somewhere a consistent solution, and if our doctrines will show their competence to offer it, then the world will be the first one to confess, that ours must be the true philosophy, the true religion, the true light, which gives truth and nothing but the TRUTH. And this TRUTH is not Buddhism, but esoteric BUDHISM. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear..." HPB -- Lucifer August 1888, Vol. 2, p. 421 "Theosophy is an all-embracing Science; many are the ways leading to it...which began with the sublime in the days of Ammonius Saccas...There were theosophists and Theosophical Schools for the last 2,000 years, from Plato down to the medieval Alchemists, who knew the value of the term... Belief in the Masters, was never made an article of faith in the T.S. But for its Founders, the commands received from Them when it was established have ever been sacred. And this is what one of them wrote...: "Theosophy must not present merely a collection of moral verities, a bundle of metaphysical Ethics epitomized in theoretical dissertations. Theosophy must be made practical, and has, therefore, to be disencumbered of useless discussion ...It has to find objective expression in an all-embracing code of life thoroughly impregnated with its spirit--the spirit of mutual tolerance, charity, and love...The problem of true theosophy and its great mission is the working out of clear, unequivocal conceptions of ethic ideas and duties which would satisfy most and best the altruistic and right feelings in us; and the modeling of these conceptions for their adaptation into such forms of daily life where they may be applied with most equitableness...Such is the common work in view for all those who are willing to act on these principles...none is held to weed out a larger plot of ground than his strength and capacity will permit him..." -- HPB "The Organization of the T.S." Theosophist, August 1931, and Theosophist, June 1924. ] "The society was founded to become the Brotherhood of Humanity--a centre, philosophical and religious, common to all--not as a propaganda for Buddhism merely...the T.S. is open to all, without distinction of "origin, caste, nation, colour, or sex...or of creed." HPB -- "The Theosophical Society," LUCIFER, Aug. 1888 HPB wrote an article "What is Truth ?" [ HPB Articles (ULT) Vol. 1, p. 1. LUCIFER, February 1888, I - p. 425 It is well worth reading, as it covers most of the points raised as to what is real TRUTH, and what is partial or variable "truth." "HPB is loyal to the death to the Theosophical Cause, and those great Teachers whose philosophy can alone bind the whole Humanity into one Brotherhood...Therefore the degree of her sympathies with the "Theosophical Society and Adyar" depends upon the degree of the loyalty of that society to the CAUSE. Let it break away from the original lines and show disloyalty in its policy to the CAUSE and the original programme of the Society and HPB, calling the T.S. disloyal, will shake it off like dust from her feet....There is no longer a "Parent Society;" it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous, as are the States of America, and all under one Head President, who, together with H.P.Blavatsky, will champion the CAUSE against the whole world..." HPB - A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR, Lucifer, August 1889. ======================================================== Source of Theosophy The Teachings.... unbroken... un-altered ..... ninterrupted... -----Part I H.P. Blavatsky wrote in October 1889 issue of LUCIFER: "... what I do believe in is: (1), the unbroken oral teachings revealed by living *divine* men during the infancy of mankind to the elect among men; (2), that it has reached us *unaltered; and (3) that the MASTERS are thoroughly versed in the science based on such uninterrupted teaching.." (Blavatsky: Collected Writings, vol. 11, pages 466-467) "The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat intimate acquaintance with Eastern Adepts and study of their SCIENCE ... we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we lent a ready ear ... " ( ISIS I, v, vi) Caps added "... from the first ages of man, the fundamental truths of all that we are permitted to know on earth was in the safe keeping of the adepts of the sanctuary ... those guardians of the PRIMITIVE DIVINE REVELATION, who had solved every problem that is within the grasp of human intellect, were bound together by a universal freemasonry of science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken chain around the globe." (ISIS I, 37-38) Caps added "There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of thoughtful and solitary students, who pass their lives in obscurity, far from the rumors of the world, studying the great problems of the physical and spiritual universes. They have their SECRET RECORDS in which are preserved the fruits of the scholastic labors of the LONG LINE of recluses whose successors they are ... "(ISIS I, 557) caps added ... the Secret Doctrine is the Truth ... (II, 292) "... many are those who ... will remain in doubt and mortal agony as to whether, when man dies, he will live again, although the question has been solved by long bygone generations of sages .... Except the initiates, no one has understood the mystic writing. The key was in the keeping of those who knew how to commune with the invisible Presence, and who had received, from the lips of mother Nature herself, her grand truths ... "( ISIS I, 573) "... This 'secret doctrine' contains the alpha and omega of universal SCIENCE; therein lies the corner and the keystone of all the ancient and modern knowledge; and alone in this ... doctrine remains buried the absolute in the philosophy of the dark problems of life and death ... " ( ISIS I, 511) caps added "Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever land or under whatever climate, are the expression of the same identical thoughts, the key to which is in the esoteric doctrine ... And the clergy of every nation, though practicing rites and ceremonies which may have differed externally, had evidently been initiated into the same traditional mysteries which were taught all over the world ..." ( ISIS I, 561) "... the Northern seer Swedenborg, advises people to search for the lost word among the hierophants of Tartary, China and Thibet; for it is there, and only there now ... " ( ISIS I 580 ) "... the four Vedas; the Books of Hermes; the Chaldean Book of Numbers; the Nazarene Codex; the Kabala ... ; the Sepher Jezira; the Book of Wisdom ... ; the Brahmanas; the Stan-gyour, of the Thibetans; all these volumes have the same ground-work. Varying but in allegories they teach the same secret doctrine which ... will prove to be the Ultima Thule of true philosophy, and disclose what is this lost word." ( ISIS I, 580) "... the 'secret doctrine' or wisdom was identical in every country ..." ( ISIS I, 444) "... What we desire to prove is, that underlying every ancient popular religion was the same ancient wisdom-doctrine, one and identical, professed and practiced by the initiates of every country, who alone were aware of its existence and importance ... A single glance ... is enough to assure one that it could not have attained the marvelous perfection in which we find it pictured to us in the relics of the various esoteric systems, except after a succession of ages. A philosophy so profound, a moral code so ennobling, and practical results so conclusive and so uniformly demonstrable is not the growth of a generation, or even a single epoch. Fact must have been piled upon fact, deduction upon deduction, science have begotten science, and myriads of the brightest human intellects have reflected upon the laws of nature, before this ancient doctrine had taken concrete shape. The proofs of this identity of fundamental doctrine in the old religions are found in the prevalence of a system of initiation; in the secret sacerdotal castes who had the guardianship of mystical words of power, and a public display of a phenomenal control over natural forces, indicating association with preterhuman beings ... " ( ISIS II 90 ) "As we proceed, we will point out the evidences of this identity of vows, formulas, rites, and doctrines, between the ancient faiths. We will also show that not only their memory is still preserved in India, but also that the SECRET ASSOCIATION is still alive and as active as ever ... the chief pontiff and hierophant, the Brahmatma, is still accessible to those 'who know,' though perhaps recognized by another name; and that the ramifications of his influence extend throughout the world ..." ( ISIS II, 99-100) Caps Added "Our examination of the multitudinous religious faiths that mankind, early and late, have professed, most assuredly indicates that they have all been derived from one primitive source. It would seem as if they were all but different modes of expressing the yearning of the imprisoned human soul for intercourse with supernal spheres. As the while ray of light is decomposed by the prism into the various colors of the solar spectrum, so the beam of divine truth, in passing through the three-sided prism of man's nature, has been broken up into vari-colored fragments called religions. And, as the rays of the spectrum, by imperceptible shadings, merge into each other, so the great theologies that have appeared at different degrees of divergence from the original source, have been connected by minor schisms, schools, and off-shoots from the one side or the other. Combined, their aggregate represents one eternal truth; separate, they are but shades of human error and the signs of imperfection ... " "What has been contemptuously termed Paganism, was ancient wisdom replete with Deity; and Judaism and its offspring, Christianity and Islamism, derived whatever of inspiration they contained from this ethic parent. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism are the double source from which all religions sprung; Nirvana is the ocean to which all tend." ISIS II, 639) ========================================= From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 04:58:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 12:58:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 34444 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 12:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 12:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 12:58:15 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.103] helo=earthlink) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CJYe-0007nX-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:57:20 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:52:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 14 2002 Dear Friends: The enclosed gives a general survey of persons, societies etc... on which Theosophy has had an impact or which served as the vehicles for Theosophical thought in the past. If one looks closely the cycles of thought can be traced. It is incomplete and is being modified or added constantly If you have any suggestions Thanks, Dallas ----------------------------------------------------- From: dalval14@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:20 AM To: blavatsky.net Study Subject: FW: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY __________ Note This is an attempt to place events and personages within various accepted and Theosophical time-frames. It is hoped that it will help in observing evidence of the Wise Men and Sage Adepts of the past at work. It will help the compilers if you would contribute any corrections or additions to this growing project, as a result of your own study and use of this list. Most time references are based on the periods that HPB has given us in either Isis or The S.D., or in her articles. This is under active completion and verification, hence, you will be asked to excuse some errors that will be found, and invited to draw the attention of the compilers to corrective facts. Verifying dates have occasionally been secured from Encyclopedia Britannica and other sources, and those have been added to those secured from Theosophical sources. If uncertain : c / ? . _______________________________ Abbreviations used: IS = Isis Unveiled Glos = Theosophical Glossary SD = The Secret Doctrine T = Theosophy Magazine (LA) Key = Key to Theosophy Theos't = Theosophist (Adyar) Lucif= Lucifer Magazine Path = The Path (New York) ML = Mahatma Letters T M = Theos. Movement (Bombay) Ocean= Ocean of Theosophy HPB Art = Collected HPB Articles CWB = Collected Works HPB WQJ Art = Collected WQJ Articles =========================================================== A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY Introduction The sub-title given to this survey indicates the attention that H. P. Blavatsky paid to the historical, factual aspect, of the records of the Adepts. ( SD I 272 ) One of the factors faced in the effort to redirect a vision of the scope of time past is the tendency, inherited from theological views in the West, which tend to foreshorten history and dwarf the periods of evolution that are a part of the lore of ancient nations especially in the East, in their estimates or records concerning pre-historical eras and epochs, and events which they recorded. This present list considers time periods given in records preserved by the Great Lodge of Adepts, from which HPB gives fragments of data relating to vast achievements in the Past--and records or reports of its arts, sciences, technologies, buildings, chronologies, astronomy, and a thousand other indications, which tend to show that we are, in our present whirl of research, retracing the patterns of that past, and adding to the testimony that increasingly validates it. Students of Theosophy take into account certain foundational concepts, such as :-- 1. Reincarnation: that we are essentially in our spiritual, natures, immortals, and have lived many lives on this Earth;. We were present in the ancient civilizations. 2. that Karma, the law of justice and of fairness to all beings (from the atom to Galaxy) is The Law for every aspect of the Universe; and that it consists of an harmonic balance at all points; so that all present circumstances can be traced to choices made earlier; 3. the ideal of Human Brotherhood is not a myth but a solid fact based on the common immortality of the Spiritual Person presiding in each of us, and, as science and psychology demonstrate daily that we share in each other, as in all aspects of Nature; and finally, 4. There is an actual, a Universal All--an Encompassing Unity (or Causation), which forms the living and sensitive base for all evolution and all individual consciousness. A factor that serves to make the Universe, evolution, and man's independence valuable, is the fact that it is, in reality, a vast school. Every being (from the imponderable atom to the utmost reaches of Space, is an entity, an immortal and conscious "something" (perhaps a "pupil" of more or less advancement in the vast scheme. It is an index of the intelligence that is innate in every life-atom that makes cooperation with every other being possible, e.g., we could consider cellular cooperation in our body, where some 100 trillion cells (made up of an incredible amount of atoms and molecules) coordinate to give us a physical basis of life and consciousness. The objects of the Theosophical Movement are:-- 1. To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color; 2. The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies and sciences and the demonstration of the importance of such study; and 3. The investigation of the unexplained laws of Nature and the psychical powers latent in man. ___________________________________ C H R O N O L O G Y ================================================== Year Groups or Tribes Notes and References >From To or Individuals ================================================== Universal and World Periods SD II 69-70 OCEAN 125 _____________________________ 311,040,000 000 000 years = Maha Kalpa, or Life of Brahma (100 of Brahma's years) [311 trillion, 40 billion] SD II 70 3,110,400,000,000 years = 1 Year of Brahma SD II 70 [ 3 trillion, 110 billion ] 8,640,000,000 years = 1 Day + 1 Night of Brahma 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa = l Day of Brahma or 1,000 Maha-Yugas SD II 69 or 14 Manus SD II 59-60 [ see The Theosophist, Nov., 1885, p. 115-6; ] 1 Day of Brahma = 4,294,080,000 years = 994 Maha-Yugas or 14 Manus add 25,920,000 years = 1 Sandhi (twilight) SD II 308fn _____________________ 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa or 1 Day of Brahma (4 billion, 320 million) SD II 69-70 1 Manvantara = 306,720,000 years = 71 Maha Yugas of 4,320,000 years add 1,728,000 years = 1 Sandhi SD II 69 ____________________ 308,448,000 years = 1 Manvantara SD II 69 ----------------------------------------------------------- 4 Yugas [ The 4 "Ages" ] .[Hindu Astronomy] SD II 69 ML p. 121, IS I 32 1,728,000 years = Krita (or Satya, or Golden Age-Yuga) 1,296,000 years = Treta (or Silver Age--Yuga ) 864,000 years = Dwapara ( or Bronze Age--Yuga ) 432,000 years - Kali ( or Black, Iron Age--Yuga ) __________________ 4,320,000 years = 1 Maha Yuga - or 1/1000th of Brahma's day SD II 69; HPB III 422; Lucif XIII, 183-4 ============================== Chaldean Cycles . . . . . IS I 30 fn [ Berosus, Priest of the temple of Belus, Babylon ] 3,600 years = 1 Sar (or Saros ) IS I 21, 30, 34, 533 II 467, Path X 301 600 years = 1 Neros 60 years = 1 Sossus Berosus, Temple of Belus, Babylon IS I 30 fn SD II 38 331 432 566; SD I 114 314 389 435 649 655fn Glos. 108 291 (Sar) 225 258 Solar or Heliacal Year 25,868 years SD I 314; Ocean 121 ( 1 Sub-race ) Metonic Moon Cycle 6,586 days = cycle of eclipses ( or revolution = 18 yrs.11 1/2 day - the moon's node [a cycle of 6,585 days (18.041 years) Grand Cycles Orpheus: 120,000 years IS I 294 fn Cassandrus 136,000 years IS I 294 fn ====================================== Our Earth 1,955,884,687 years (in 1887) from the beginning of "cosmic evolution" SD II 68 - 300,000,000 Years as a Sandhi (twilight) ______________ 1,664,884,687 years (in 1887) from the first appearance of "Humanity" (on this planetary chain) as a physical form SD II 68 ====================================== B. C. LODGE OF ADEPTS Is II 98-103 S D I 272-3 18,618,727 Lighting up of Manas [ mind ] (as in 1887) SD I 150fn; SD II 69 254-5 4,000,000 c. Engulfing of Lemuria (e.g.:--Easter Island) SD I 439 [4th Round, 4th Globe, 3rd "Race"] Easter Island - SD I 322 439 II 224 317 Atlantis [ Titans / Kabiri / Cyclops ] [4th Round, 4th Globe, 4th "Race"] 1,050,000 Beginning of the 5th "Race" SD II 141144 435 Vedas SD I 269-71 II 483-4 450 606 616 T M 5-67 Glos 361 IS I 444 THY 2-468 Theos't I-247 COL I TOP. WQJ ART II 82-3 Theos't 9-428 Vedanta SD I 7 50-1 269 451 Glos 361 253 (Uttara Mimansa - Vyasa) Theos't I-201 287 9-411; Lucif 6-119 Advaita (non-dualistic) SD I 8 55 522 II 637 GLOS 7 (Shankaracharya - founder) ML 53-4 Theos't 10-7; Glos 307 Dwaita (dualistic) Manu Smriti (Code of Manu from Krita Yuga) IS I 585-6 1,000,000 Aryan Race began SD II 395 Theosophy V. 45, p. 219 Brahmin invasion of Northern India Is II 156fn 169 158 Is II 323 192 SD I 209 II 565 Glos 222 Persians, Turanians, Goths, Slavs Is. I 569-576 II 426-433 c. 1,000,000 - 500,000 B C 998,100 Cataclysms: Atlantis begins sinking SD II 141 Is I 557 593 SD II 10 144 Glos 42-3 869,000 Dwapara Yuga Commencement (since 1888) SD II 147 ( Kali-Yuga began 3,102 BC ) 850,000 Since submergence of last large peninsula of the Great Atlantis SD II 10 850,000 Glacial Period est. by Stockwell & Croll SD II 141 144 800,000 Angkor Wat built (2nd most Occult Edifice) Glos 223 Is I 239 561-8 271-2 500,000 - 250,000 B C 470,000 Babylon's astronomical observations said to go back to this period Nebo or Birs Nimrud, BCW 13-274 Isis I 533 450,000 Epoch of Ramayana (Brahmin estimate) C & J p. 73 Theos't Vol. 10-35 SD II 496 IS II 278 Glos 275 400,000 Egypt was settled by the Atlanteans and the Eastern AEtheopeans SD II 750 250,000 - 100,000 B C 250,000 + Last Glaciation of Europe Isis I 3 Pyramids were 3 times submerged SD I 313 424 617 S D II 462-6 575 435 749-50 351-3 351-2 93 276fn 429 462; GL 223 300; IS I 154 239 296-7 517-21 THEOSOPHY Vol. 67-p.54 Sphinx (Harmachus) SD II 124 618 Glos 135-6 Is I 573 200,000 Chaldean Astronomical Observations extended back at the time of Alexander's invasion Berosus SD I xxvi 200,000 Stockwell & Croll of last Glaciation SD II 141-4 100,000 - 30,000 B C 78,000 + Denderah Zodiac [Egyptians brought from Lanka - Menes ] SD II 374fn 431-6 456 577 580; IS I 440-1 49,186 Egyptian Records go back to ( Diogenes Laertius ) by 8,863 yrs. in 323 BC IS I 33 34,300 Sumerian Tablet gives 32,234 yrs between Deluge and last king of Isin c.200 BC Thy 16, p.195 30,000 - 10,000 B C 29,217 Alpha Polaris (Dhruva) (as Pole Star) (in 1888) 31,105 yrs ago Glos. 17 15,194 Zodiac Originated 1st degree of Aries ( Ram ) 15,086 Vernal Equinox and 1st degree of Libra coincided ( 16,984 yrs ago in 1888 ) S D I 658 12,300 Vyasa - Uttara Mimansa and Vedanta taught Isis II 621 "Bhadarayana" SD I 50 269 451 Glos 361 11,100 Vega (Alpha Lyrae was Pole Star Thy 17- p. 18 10,000 - 6,000 B C 9,566 Deluge of Deucalion. Last Island of Atlantis ML p. 155 submerged. Last war between the 5 YRS OF THY 99fn "Sons of God" of the "White Island" and SD II 406 444fn the last Atlantean sorcerers ISIS I 589-594 9,500 Atlantis - Last Island sank Timaeus"- Plato as narrated by Priests of Sais to Solon TM 46-469 8,000 Hindu Initiates had same Secret Philosophy then as now (estimate) SD II 406 IS II 535 8,000 Tchandalas begin to emigrate from India to Chaldea SD II 200 Glos 323 165 IS I 135 551-2 578 Isis II 438-9 SD I 313fn 7,975 End of the last Sidereal Year Ocean 129 SD I 649-50 (9,868 yrs. before 1893) SD II 314 331 432 470 6,500 c Zarathustra (6,000 yrs. before Plato c 400 BC) Gl 384-5 IS I 19 II 141 SD I 464 II 323 Theos't I-135 Thy 14-97 [Zoroaster was a Title - 24 Zoroasters. The last Zoroaster (Guru-astera or Star Guru) was a contemporary of Gautama Buddha. c. 600 BC ] 6,000 - 4,000 B C 6,000/5,000 Trojan War nearer 6,000 than 5,000 BC S D II 37fn Thy 27-103 IS I 520 598 Glos 96 (Dardanus) SD II 101 236 440 5,100 Neith (1st Dynasty) Egypt Lucif 2-465 SD I 399 Glos 77 227 234 4,100 c Manu-Vina (Menes) to Masra (Cairo) IS I 627 516 SD II 335 374 431-2 436 746; Thy 15, 317 4,000 - 3,000 B C 3750 Sargon I reigned (Prof. A.H.Sayce) SD II 691 3,700 Local Deluge in Middle East S D II 691 3,200 c Date assigned to last Veda Vyasa by the Brahmins. [Vyasa is a title.] Glos 362 3,080 c Arjuna to Patala ( marries Ulupi ) SD II 214fn [ Orphean Mysteries ] Glos 29 ("Patala" = Mexico ) Thy 15, 546 IS II 561fn 3,100 c Orpheus identified with Arjuna Thy 27, 148 Glos 242 (On travel to Patala, stops in Greece) HPB ART III 138 IS I 532 II 129 550 SD I 207 267fn 529 784 Lucif 16-273 Theos't 5-20 Col 2 Bot, "Mysteries of Orpheus" established in Greece 3,102 KRISHNA'S DEATH (18 Feb. 3,102 BC) Glos 170 387 [ midnight 17/18 ] Thy. I-p. 374; IV-p. 37 3,102 Kali Yuga began Feb. 16, AM: 2 Hrs, 27 Min, 30 Sec. [only precise time given in S D] SD I 662 SD II 147 fn 3,102 Hindu Zodiac Begins at sunrise Feb 18th SD I 662 ( origin of present Hindu era: "Vikram Samvat" and Zodiac, Tiravalour, So.India ) 3,100 c Vikramaditya rules at Ujjain ("Vikram Samvat") SD I 662 [ begins at Sunrise, February 18th 3,102 B C ] 3,100 c Fu - H'si ( Krishna of China ) Thy 14- 308 Po - H'si ( 1st Ruler of China) Thy 14- 1 3,100 c. Dwaraka (Gujerat, Kathiawar) submerged. End of Yadus, Krishna' race Glos 374 3,000 - 2,000 B C 3,000 c Gilgamesh epic "Flood" of Jewish Bible Thy 16, 307 2,875 c Akkadians (Semites) overrun Sumer Sargon IS I 576-78 2,800 c Yi-King (Chinese Kabala in dialect of Akkadians) Thy 25-444 2,700 Hwang-Ti 3rd ruler after Po-H'si Thy 15-19 Thy 14-310 Babylon & Assyria Glos 47 37 IS I 567 ML 152 THY 16-194 307 2,253 Chaldean Astronomical Observations for past 1903 years Calliosthenes to Aristotle (c 350 BC) IS I 21 Kasidim Glos 75 81 39 196 IS I xxviii 534 459 567 HPB Art III 134 ML 152 CWB 5-13 326-8 SD II 620 2,200 c Shu-King and Shi-King (China) Thy 14-310 IS I 11 Hammurabi (Code) Babylon Thy 16-196 2,000 c Sumeria old texts with interlinear Semitic Thy 16-194 translations Thy 21-414 2,000 - 1,000 B C 1,925 c Hittites capture Babylon IS I 567-8 1,850 c Chung-Ki (China ) Thy 14-34 1,700 c Knossos (Crete) at its height ISIS I 264 545 [ c 3,000 BC - 1,400 BC ] 1,628 Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] [ End of Minoan Civilization, and tidal waves overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] 1,600 c Achaeans to Crete destruction of Knossos dynasty Thera-Santorini volcano explodes 1,600 c Hyksos ( Semites ) overran Egypt IS I 569-70 1,500 c Arameans over-ran Mesopotamia IS I 579 Phoenicians ( Semites ) IS I 569 567 572 545 1,573 Moses born SD II 539 691 MOD PAN 45 HPB III 244 IS I 3 555 SD I 320fn 385 IS II 428 456 65 691 129 I 25 1,447 Aries in its 15th degree SD II 436 fn SD I 658 1,350 c Tutankhamen XVIII Dynasty (son-in-law of Ikhnaton) Aton replaced Amon-Ra -- Thebes-capital of Egypt 1,225 c Rameses II ( restored Karnak & many monuments ) Greeks: Aeolians Ionians Dorians Achaeans Scythians from central Asia begin invading Russia Khazaks (in 8th Cent. identified with Jews ) 1,250 Sanchoniathon compiled religious writings SD II 440fn IS I 234 341-2 577-8 II 260 275 SD II 129 440 Glos 289 1,000 - 900 B C 1,000 c Aztecs to Central America S D II 445 Thy 16, 70-1 974-937 Solomon IS I 135 II 391 ML 345 SD II 591 M Pan 45-6 970-936 Hiram I at Tyre (Phoenician Jews ) IS I 19 135 566-8 945 Conjunction of all the Planets except Saturn SD II 63 (Note: also great conj. in 1957, 1965-7 & Sun's Eclipse ) 900 c Inca Kings records begin Thy 16-25 Glos 154 HPB Art III 428 IS I 595-8 814 Founding of Carthage by Phoenicians in flight from Joshua, son of Nun IS I 520 560 567 II 546 700 - 600 B C 8 Cent c Hesiod Poet - no certainty on, later than Homer Ascribed to him: Theogony Shield of Heracles Preserved Myths SD I 425 648 II 450 603 764fn 775 IS I 558 567 636c-546c Thales (Greece) Glos 326 IS I 24 512 526 Miletus - founder of Milesian School of philosophy Matter was one: water - no writings extant Taught geometry and astronomy - a Phoenician Said learned from Babylonians and Egyptians Predicted Sun eclipse of 585 B C - polytheist one of the 7 Wise Men of Greece Egypt over-ran by Scyths, Assyrians, Medes, Cimmerians Hermetic Philosophy & Mysteries transferred from Egypt to Greece Glos 140 219 Thy 27 196 700-600 B C MYSTERIES OF GREECE [ General Survey ] Mysteries moved to Greece from Egypt Glos 219 140 Pythoness IS I xxxv-viii 358 531; II 590; Glos 266 Delphos (Mysteries of Apollo) Glos 267 295 Eleusis Thy 27, 149-152 532; Glos 112 IS II 44 98 131 138 145 IS I xii HPB Art I 18 Mod Pan 134-5 Ephesus Glos 114 27; IS II 155; Thy 28, 7 Samothrace IS I 132 234 302 570 23 Glos 287 Sodales (and Sodalean Oath) IS I 301 555 IS II 131 SD II 212; Glos 302 1st Cent c Therapeutae ( Pythagoreans) Key, 5 72; IS I 19; Glos 329 Theurgy Key 3; T M 18-148-151; IS I xlii; Gl 329 Corybantes SD II 106 I 400 Glos 47 43 88 92 Kybele Glos 182 Dactyli-Priests of Kybele IS I xxviii Glos 93 Dionysos ( Dio-Nysos ) Apollo Glos 102 47 97 (similar to Osiris) - Sun IS I xiv Mithras, Bacchus superseded IS II 165 491 560 Ceres Demeter Thy 39, 493; Glos 308 Persephone (Proserpina) 3,100 Orpheus (see 3,100 B C) IS II 35 129; THY 25-58, 27-148; GLOS 242 219 SD I 336 fn II 756; T M 18-181; 700 - 600 B C 677 Phoenicia destroyed by Assyrians and Macedonians Sea-faring Jews/Semites -founded Carthage, emigrated to Spain, and North African Sea-Ports 639-559c Solon SD II 263 743 THY 27, 104 530 {Re: Atlantis from Egyptian Saitic priests-- see Plato's Timaeus ] Athenian Statesman founder of its "democracy" Giver of laws and a reformer, also a poet Restored freedom to peasants, curbed nobility Unlawful to pledge one's liberty - annulled all mortgages and debt - established juries Made an Archon in 594 BC - wrote constitution c Patanjali (founder of Yoga Philosophy) Glos 251 380 Established a School on Indian Psychology Mediation and deeper states discussed Goal of human evolution explained c Panini (grammarian - codified Sanskrit) Glos 248 251 c Mahavira (Jain Saint) Ths't 6-95 SD II 423 IS II 322 Last of 24 Tirthankaras HPB TO APS 242 Glos 335 673 BC Assurbanipal Great Library in Babylon Glos 37 Pherecydes ( teacher of Pythagoras ) CWB 13-283-4 Nineveh and Babylon at their height SD II 692 IS I 403 Western Europe overran by Celts, Germans, Slavs Glos 105 239 Druids (Bhrigu) Glos 57 IS I 18 576 628-551c Zoroaster (latest) Thy 6-23 Thy 14-97 149 212 264 621-543 Buddha: Gautama Sidartha Glos 65-6 126 286 ML 43 96 78 SD II 423 I 161-2 THS'T 5-39 HPB TO APS 242-3 T M 15-105 VOICE 78fn T M 7-27 611c-547c Anaximander b. Miletus - pupil of Thales Detailed explanation of all Nature - wrote Space as origin of all - pairs of opposites Eternal motion, churning of space into opposites Plurality of worlds - evolution of man's body from fish in water Astronomer defined solstices and equinoxes Gonom for measuring Sun's direction and height 604- c Lao Tse Glos 186 320 SD I xxv Thy 15-18 70 Thy 20-51 600 - 500 B C [6 Cent] Anaximenes b. Miletus - pupil of Anaximander Proposed air as basic principle in Nature relates to Space and its nature Stars move around the earth "Gods" arose from the "air." 586-500 Pythagoras (Crotona) Thy 27-244 70-365 71- 16, Glos 266 IS I 12 532 347fn xvi 7 9 291 181 338 Lucif IV IS II 144-5 338 452 491fn HPB ART I 431 439 BCW 13-283 Path 1 39 Trans. 106 T M 37-467 570-480 c Xenophanes . . . . . IS II 212 242 Manticism (Prophetic frenzy - Melampus and Proteus) Glos 205 550-478 Confucius Glos 82 186 SD Ixxv 162 186 320 440 Thy 14, 395 351 Thy 14-395 Mod Pen 43 535c-475c Heraclitus of Ephesus (a Milesian) Thy 27 196 No permanent reality except universal change. Permanence an illusion of the senses. Duality of contrast was eternal - death and life balanced each other Becoming, the only state, because it was transitional. Taught fire to be the substratum of the Universe Man's soul was shared, ray of the Universal Soul. Ananda (Pupil of Gautama Siddartha Buddha ) Katyayana (Buddha's pupil) Glos 2-3 Rishi Gautama (Jain Tirthankara) [Nyaya philos.] Glos 253 Gaudapadacharya (Shankara's Paraguru) SD I 457fn 514c- Parminedes (Eleatic School materialism) IS I 24 Demanded reasoned proof for assertions Being is the material substance of what the Universe is composed - called it the sole eternal reality. All else is illusion because of change, motion, no "empty space." 521- Cambyses of Persia - conquered Egypt Thy 27, 244 (took Pythagoras to Babylon, Assyria) 525-456 Aeschulus (70 dramas / tragedies) Thy 27, 532 Aryasangha ( Disciple of Buddha ) Glos 32 (Mahayana School) 500 - 400 B C -4th Cent. Druids of Gaul, Britain [ till conversion of Constantine to Christianity - Edict issued to forcibly convert all in Roman empire to Christianity ] 521-485 Darius I invaded Greece 510 Mysteries opened to those who could pay a fee forcing degradation. (Neo-Platonists restored 200 AD) Thy 27-147 Thy 28-3 500-432 c Phidias (Sculpture - Jupiter Athena, Parthenon ) 510- Shankaracharya (Reincarn of Buddha Gautama to reform Brahmins.) Worked in So. India. Smarthava sect. Adwaita (non-dualist) philos. Glos 307 288 SD I 86 271 457fn LUCIFER 4-387 Theos't 5-7 BCW 12-346fn 500-428 c Anaxagoras (friend of Socrates) Glos 21 400 - 300 B C 4th c Serapis ( worship of, in Egypt) Thy 25- 203 =================== PLATONIC ACADEMY 428-348 Plato Glos 256; SD II 395 554; Thu 27, 434 483 IS II 100 338; SD I 162; PLATONIC ACADEMY started 469-399 Socrates HPB ART I 17f THY 27-387; IS II 117-8 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Academy) HPB Art I 12 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; HPB ART Vol. I 16 19; SD I 615; Glos 73 256 227 384 SD II 153; ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) 484-424 Herodotus (history) 432 c Meton (astronomy) Lunar cycle 19 years - of phases 460 c Ezra (compiled Pentateuch) SD II 143 IS I 568 578 IS II 128 HPB Art III 245 Thy 25-10 Glos 117 460-357 Hippocrates (healer) IS I xxxvii 425-6; GLOS 142 Thy 22, 101; Thy 39, 405 Philolaus (Discip. of Pythagoras, math. & codified) 490-430 Empidocles 460-370 c Democritus (maths, Physics, atom, ) Thy 27, 35 400 - 300 B C c Leucippus (taught Democritus) IS I 61 c Quetzal Coatl Thy 16-113; Thy 16-70-2 485-406 Euripides (Drama) Thy 27-531; Thy 24-496 430-355 c Xenophon (pupil of Socrates ) 490-429 Pericles (Social and political reform) 448-380 Aristophanes (comedies) 495-406 Sophocles (drama & poetry) Theucidides 408-355 c Eudoxus (astronomer, Math. physician) 400 - 300 B C Hem-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-161 Chwang-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-213 331 Alexandria founded Thy 25-6; Thy 27-33; Glos 54 356-323 Berosus (Chaldean) Glos 54-5 356-323 Alexander "The Great" Conquests frontiers of India - to Indus 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; I 16 19; Glos 73 256 227 384, SD II 153; SD I 615; ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) 300 - 200 B C STOICS 340-265 Zeno (founded Stoic Philosophers) 300 c Euclid (systematic geometry ) 323-283 Ptolemy I (Soter) Glos 16; Thy 25 p 6 Alexandrian Library -- 700,000 Rolls SD I 353 659-60 664 IS I 21 396-314 Xenocrates (Pupil of Plato) Thy 5, 104 164 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Plato's Academy) HPB Art I 12 Heraclides "Buddhism in India" (article) Thy 12, 506 371-288 c Mencius Thy 15, 113 300 - 200 B C "Shu-King" (china) Thy 14, 310 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 05:46:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 52782 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:46:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re.The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1ba.96c893c.2b04b480@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4432 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list although (in spite of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to him, Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to Leon Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made an intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up , see below. Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to receiving only nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come back to write the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at first. He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio-syndrome, he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu Conference co- sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, and held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he was invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to sit on the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non- proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the United Nations. He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary extended master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion and theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain his Degree. In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he gave a West Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, Greek, Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of the Sun" Exhibit. He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist connections at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic conference held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he recieved and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single scholar could challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a full-page article in the News-India Times about this. He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such Days and Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to hundreds of thousands listeners. But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week West Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several months. But he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two of his papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it is unlikely that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World Association for Vedic Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, and suffers periodic central vision loss. But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real person. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. Meaning one must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of his letters On-line: > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 06:32:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 14:32:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 62509 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 14:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 14:32:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 14:32:10 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 208C5480781 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:32:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c28be9$e33f1c00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Does Brian/Brigitte consider HPB a "charlatan"? Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:26:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Steve and all of you, Thanks Steve. I enjoyed that. from M. Sufilight with a smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Does Brian/Brigitte consider HPB a "charlatan"? > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Steve, I don't know what exactly is added to the word "charlatan" > by > > affixing "mere vulgar" but your opinion appears to be contrary to > > Brigitte/Brian's view that Blavatsky was a charlatan. > > There are numerous characters who were mere vulgar charlatans, some > of whom are alive today, and their stuff contains very little > intellectual content, since their aim was not to study anything but > to gull people. So we have plenty of examples available for > consideration of what charlatans produce. If you look at the theory > of materialization in the SD and see how elegant it is, and if you > look at the complex system of practices which were developed to demo > this phenomenon, and thereby "prove" the validity of the principles > (in the minds of the mahatmas) it is impossible in my mind to > continue with the theory that these people were in the same class as > the aforementioned charlatans. > > Yes, I think the words "mere" and "vulgar" both meaningfully modify > the word "charlatan," and, no, I do not believe HPB was a charlanan. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 06:36:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 57570 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:36:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on Blavatsky, Bailey, Theosophy and Esoteric Tradition Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3676 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below are two quotes from Bhakti Ananda Goswami on Blavatsky, Bailey, Theosophy and Esoteric Tradition. These quotes show some of his views and background assumptions. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------ H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophists and early Aryanists made Sri Lanka one of their world headquarters for exporting their militant atheism. Aryosophist esotericism in Britain and Germany became pervaded with Theravadin Buddhist thought. This 'Aryanism' doctrine of voidism and related moral relativism eventually became central to the conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich. Theravadin Buddhist voidism has not been a benevolent force in history ! . . . Thus wedded to imperialism and Aryosophic esotericism, global Aryanism ultimately formed a network of oppressors who at the core were atheistic voidists with no moral absolutes at all. When I was in Sri Lanka in 1982, I personally heard Aryosophist Theosophists discussing the problems facing the Sinhalese 'Aryans' who were being threatened by the darker 'primitive' and inferior races of South India. Using various versions of the Theosophical root-races theory, the Sinhalese Buddhist Aryanists were determined to return the inferior Dravidians to their proper place as powerless laborers in an Aryanist Buddhist- controlled state. Quoted from: http://saragrahi.org/columns/one/pure_land_buddhism8.htm ----------------------------------------------------- . . . the existence of God or a specific 'God' cannot be proven except by a person's direct experience, but the existence of a major religion in history can be proven through numerous and interdisciplinary means. My work has always focused on real-world history, As presented by the evidence, not on some fantastic speculation of my own. I have always desired to be as objective as humanly possible, and thus to allow the evidence to 'speak for itself'. Thus my work has never been like the fanciful or sentimental writings of persons like H.P. Blavatsky, E. Levi, Joseph Smith, Spencer Lewis, Nicholas Notovitch, Szekely, A. Bailey, Edgar Cayce, Louis Jacolliot, P.N. Oak or any of the other popular Old 'esoteric' or newer 'new age' Aryosophists, channelers or fantasy- as-history enthusiasts. I have never considered anyone of their ilk as authoritative and completely reject their work as a disservice to the Truth (God) and humanity. For decades I have fought to expose the plagiarism, fraud and inaccuracy of their bogus histories, concocted and redacted 'scriptures' and the lies and distortions and utter nonsense of their entire genre of fantasy-as-history literature. I have even endured death threats and actual physical attacks from some of their fanatical followers because of my commitment to exposing the lies and distortions of these purveyors of fantasy as historical fact. I take the truth very seriously. So be assured that if I state that there is solid-real-world reason to believe that there is some connection between a Vedic 'God' and an Egyptian and Jewish one, there is. I totally reject 'channeling' or 'esoteric tradition' as sources for anything other than the study of arrogant self-and-other deluding nonsense. In my research I have always and only used the best possible and non-controversial, academically accepted sources of evidence. I have strictly practiced proper scientific methodology in the collection, treatment and testing of my data. Quoted from: http://saragrahi.org/columns/one/one1/answers_to_a_constructive_critic .htm ---------------------------------------------------------- From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 07:14:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 15:14:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 10594 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 15:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 15:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 15:14:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 15:14:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:13:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1058 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brigitte Muehlegger comments in her well-known style: "People like Dallas the Broek (Dalval) or Daniel Caldwell do is shower people with outdated Theosophical propaganda material. It is like with Jehovas Witnesses (have you ever seen someone try to get you to 'look' at The Watchtower ?), well they know that once reading the stuff many people often do join." Yes, Brigitte, I do publish on my website as well as quote on this forum original Theosophical documents. Dr. James Santucci wrote in THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY that my website was a treasure trove of primary source material on Blavatsky and Theosophy. If I remember correctly both you and your alter ego ALSO quote from various historical documents on Blavatsky and Theosophy. Should we characterize some of THOSE documents as "outdated [anti?]Theosophical propaganda material"? :) Furthermore, since Theos-Talk IS a Theosophical discussion forum, it is not surprising that subscribers might post Theosophical material here! Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 07:31:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 15:31:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 14409 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 15:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 15:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 15:31:58 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C31E5480471 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:31:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005601c28bf2$3dd65b80$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World No evidence but the "will" to believe, plus fairy tale "stories." Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:26:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Brain --- I am afraid, that if you want to have solid PROOFS - it will NOT be a physical one. Try this sentence: It will maybe be a surprise experience for you to know or to learn to know, that Wisdom and inner insight of truth about certain issues are a REAL and TRUE fact in this universe of ours - with all what i contains visible and invisible depending on the individual involved. This particular wisdom or insight contains a sort of similar kind of PROOF, which your 'senses' or 'faculty of reason' has to you today. from M. Sufilight with a friendly attempt... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:24 AM Subject: Theos-World No evidence but the "will" to believe, plus fairy tale "stories." > People like Dallas the Broek (Dalval) or Daniel Caldwell do is shower > people with outdated Theosophical propaganda material. It is like with > Jehovas Witnesses (have you ever seen someone try to get you to "look" > at The Watchtower ?), well they know that once reading the stuff many > people often do join. The same on this list, Dalval often answer a > question with one sentence, but then slips half a book of literature in his > post totally non-related to the subject, "here read this" and so does > Caldwell just post tons of material ("just read this" the same material > over and over) without ever answering a single question. Were is the > proof the source of The Mahatma Letters is what Dalval and Caldwell > suggest it is, including the (secondary) claim that they would be > magically produced out of thin air.(Precipitated they call it among others, > plus letters appeard from the ceiling and so on) > The reading of a telegram from some mysterious and unnamed source > ordering the re-appointment of Mrs. Kingsford to the Presidency of the > London Lodge, closed for a time the rift in that body's ranks between the > Hermetist and the Buddhist sections. Although the message came > through "Koot Hoomi", a letter from him to the members declared it to > be "the express wish of the Chohan himself" (M.L., P. 398). > > A month later the advice of the telegram was admitted to be > an "unusual, not to say arbitrary interference with the reserved elective > rights of a Branch" (M.L., P. 4o6), and a decision by ballot was > recommended in its stead. Nevertheless, the precedent of the telegram > was remembered and followed in a later crisis' when the Presidency of > the parent society was involved. In 1908, Colonel Olcott, Madame > Blavatsky's successor, lay paralysed and awaiting his end. > The Master K.H. ,so we have it in the words of Annie Besant appeared > at his bedside of Olcott and "ordered him to nominate me to the > Presidency". This alleged visitation took place seven years after the > death of Madame Blavatsky. > One begins to see that there is scarcely a limit to what a mythical > Master can do, so long as it is something that his credulous disciples can > desire and believe. > > > Another example promulgated on behalf of the Maha-Chohan at > Kensington Town Hall on October 12, 1925, the that time President of > the TS announced ; "In the realm of psychology, the doctrine of > the "Seven Principles of Man". first educed with tortuous efforts from > ancient Indian books, and passed on for publication to Mr. Sinnett in the > flimsies of the 'eighties, finally became the stock-in trade of later > teachers. Although the early Upanishads and philosophical Sutras of the > Indians had speculated on the septenary doctrine for centuries" > But it was not to them that Theosophists turned for support, but to the > petty plagiarisms of the Letters, afterwards condensed into the shilling > Manuals of Leadbeater, Annie Besant, and many others since. > In regard to Theology, later Theosophical writers have followed the > Mahatmas' lead into a stifling fog of contradictory metaphysics. > Beginning as Buddhists, they denied God; continuing as Hindus, they > affirmed Him as the Parabrahm of the Vedantins. > > Today (Nov.14, 2002 ) the TS also states,,, in the name of the Masters > and by their orders, a Theosophical Liberal Catholic Church, in which > they celebrate the Mass and recite the Apostles' Creed. > > > The reading of a telegram from some mysterious and unnamed source > ordering the re-appointment of Mrs. Kingsford to the Presidency of the > London Lodge, closed for a time the rift in that body's ranks between the > Hermetist and the Buddhist sections. Although the message came > through "Koot Hoomi", a letter from him to the members declared it to > be "the express wish of the Chohan himself" (M.L., P. 398). > > A month later the advice of the telegram was admitted to be > an "unusual, not to say arbitrary interference with the reserved elective > rights of a Branch" (M.L., P. 4o6), and a decision by ballot was > recommended in its stead. Nevertheless, the precedent of the telegram > was remembered and followed in a later crisis' when the Presidency of > the parent society was involved. In 1908, Colonel Olcott, Madame > Blavatsky's successor, lay paralysed and awaiting his end. > The Master K.H. ,so we have it in the words of Annie Besant appeared > at his bedside of Olcott and "ordered him to nominate me to the > Presidency". This alleged visitation took place seven years after the > death of Madame Blavatsky. > One begins to see that there is scarcely a limit to what a mythical > Master can do, so long as it is something that his credulous disciples can > desire and believe. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 07:43:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 15:43:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 73176 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 15:43:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 15:43:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 15:43:21 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 54A0A480156 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:43:20 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005701c28bf3$d55c3960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Madame Blavatsky on the letter written by Sriman Swamy Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:38:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Thanks Daniel. And Yes? So where is the TRUTH in all the theosophical teaching ? Was HPB a liar ? And to what degree ? Maybe she was a spiritual DESIGNER, so the one experienceing the DESIGN (the article, book etc...) would learn and benefit from it - spirituallly, wheather the person would know of it or NOT. I think the interested student of wisdom teaching will have to learn to develop his or her "thinking" capeabilities - or learn how to learn, - i.e. learn wisdom and non-linear thinking! But do the student want to learn ? from M. Sufilight with a smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:49 AM Subject: Theos-World Madame Blavatsky on the letter written by Sriman Swamy > In a letter dated "London, 21-Nov., 1889" to Mr. N. D. Khandalavala, > Madame Blavatsky made the following comments on the letter written by > Sriman Swamy: > > "My Dear Mr. Khandalavala, > > I have given to your letter of the 25th Oct., the closest attention, > though there is nothing in it I did not know before; and now shall > answer it with all seriousness. . . . As regards the state of the > Indian Sections of the Society, and the complaints against Olcott, I > observe the following things. . . . > > . . . That Damodar is believed to have been driven away by harsh > treatment to live or die as he pleased; and that he is, in fact, > dead. > > . . . . That the publication of Sriman Swamy's letter by me [in > Lucifer] is traceable to Col. Olcott's 'craving for strange stories > and his anxiety to publish them without throughly verifying them in > the first instance.' > > . . . Let me reply. . . . > > . . . Damodar is not dead, and Olcott knows it as well as I do. I > had a letter from him not more than 3 months ago. . . . > > . . . No matter what your lying Sriman Swamy may, or may not be --- > one cannot always tell --- he passed successfully through a cross > examination by Mr. Subba Row, who pronounced him a real 'chela of the > 2nd Class' to several witnesses in Madras --- Judge Srinivas Row > among others, Olcott, etc. Without help he [Sriman Swamy] identified > the two portraits [of the Masters M. and K.H.] saying which was > which, and gave facts not obtainable from books. The certificate he > gave was sent [to me] by Harte as a duplicate of what was to appear > in the Theosophist, and I printed it [in the September 1889 issue of > Lucifer] for reasons of my own, even after Harte had written that he > suppressed it (1) (through funk of the disbelieving Hindus) at > Adyar. I made no comments on it [when published in Lucifer] because > there were two fibs in it: (a) Damodar never was at Lhassa nor > Sriman Swamy either, and not being permitted to say where he saw > Damodar he gave a wrong name; and (b) My Master never told him what > he says of me, but he heard it from a chela. I printed it with the > lies, for two reasons --- firstly, since I published it at all I had > no right to change one word; secondly, I wanted to see what they > would say in India to this; in India where every lie is believed and > repeated most readily, while truth is rejected, smothered shot out of > the guns (metaphorically) by rulers and by the ruled. Aye, India > does crucify truth as readily as it is crucified here [in England]. > Therefore, it was not yet intimated to me Mr. Subba Row had > discovered his mistake about the Swamy being 'a chela of the 2nd > Class,' whatever it may mean in India, as in Tibet it means > nothing. . . ." The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), August 1932, > pp. 618-619, 623-625. > > (1) The letter from Sriman Swamy was never published in the > Theosophist. H.P. Blavatsky printed it in Lucifer. See Madame > Blavatsky's comments above. --- BA Editor. > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 07:49:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 15:49:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 69280 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 15:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 15:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 15:49:46 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C81BC480649 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:49:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005d01c28bf4$ba6d46c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:44:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all of you, A friendly email... I understand Leon, that you are a Salesman or a capitalist too, right ? So how much does your book really cost ? These questions are meant as a spiritual uplift! No answers are needed ! from M. Sufilgiht with a friendly smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:59 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . > > In a message dated 11/11/02 11:16:16 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: > > >Quoting from Dallas's post: > > > ><<"It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote > >the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to > >practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas > >of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have > >to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T > >A & N. p. 189.]>> > > > >"Popularize" in that context brought to mind Leon's > >models, among other things. That is, I tend to agree with > >Leon that, by scientizing certain aspects of Theosophy, > >(by using a popular language of the age), one might reach > >those for whom other kinds of introductions to > >Theosophic issues might be far less applealing. > > That's right. > > >On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: > > > >((((Mauri, I shouldn't say anything in response to Leon, > >who is not even here to defend himself. But I feel the > >need to at least say the following: > > > ><< >subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion and > >Philosophy?" >>> > > > >My response to this question is: > > > >Science stands for intellectual knowledge > >Religion stands for faith Philosophy stands for > >experiential knowledge > > > >All three are necessary lest Theosophy "be nothing more > >than another religious dogma destined to die on the > >vine?" Emphasizing intellectual knowledge alone will kill > >Theosophy in only a few generations. It is already doing > >so, and Theosophy is today in its last gasp because of its > >over-emphasis on intellectualism. The "head doctrine" is > >intellectual knowledge, the "heart doctrine" is > >experiential knowledge and the one will get us nowhere > >without the other. >>>))))))) > > All I can say in response to this is; "All that goes without saying." > > But, if being a well rounded theosophist requires a balance of all three > aspects -- I haven't found one single teacher (in more than 50 years of > searching) who could show me (starting from my own position on the path and > my own propensities for learning) the perfect way to understand and practice > each direction in this modern age. So I was forced to learn the "head > doctrine" from one teacher, the "heart doctrine" from another, and then had > to find out for myself the rest of the "intellectual" and "experiential" > knowledge I needed to gain the "faith" that when I arrived at "self > realization" or oneness with the Supreme Spirit, I would have the ability to > carry out the Bodhisattva work without having to ask anyone else what there > was to do or say to any person in accordance with his/her degree of > understanding, his/her current state of consciousness, and his/her immediate > psychological, emotional, physical and/or spiritual needs. But this wasn't > all that difficult. > > Amazingly, I was lucky enough to find out about 30 years ago that all those > separate teachers were speaking to me directly through HPB. All I had to do > was hear them, study, concentrate, and follow their suggested paths of > meditation (they offered me Patanjali and the Voice of the Silence to > practice) -- while learning to supplement their teachings with the new > knowledge of modern sciences and technologies (which governs our present > lives) that HPB didn't have access to... And, as she advised me directly -- > to "Write [my] own Secret Doctrine in the language of [my] age." So, after a > few years of such study and meditation -- we were able to write, in one > afternoom, the entire ABC theory and discourse (which, several years later > was posted on my web site) -- and correlate it with all the head and heart > doctrines of theosophy that are thoroughly explained in the original SD (with > all its ancient scriptural references) and other writings of HPB and the > Masters. So, what more (at least for me) was there to know or continue to > practice? > > Think about this! Isn't it amazing how HPB managed to teach the heart > doctrine while expounding the head doctrine, and managed to teach the head > doctrine while expounding the heart doctrine? It's also amazing to me that, > outside of a few theosophical teachers I've come across at the United Lodge > of Theosophists over the past 50 odd years, I haven't found another who could > match HPB's ability to do that. And, even then, none of them had enough > scientific knowledge to fulfill my need to get into dialogues with trained > scientists in many disciplines, and make my case for theosophy in their own > jargon. > > Thus, as it is now, we (whenever I need the right words to explain a subtle > point, I ask HPB ;-) do not teach any one method -- since we can only answer > questions in the same framework that they are asked. So, for the > scientifically minded, we can lead them to the theosophical synthesis through > their interest in scientific and technical understandings. For the > philosophically minded, we lead them there through their interest in thinking > about the nature of things and their ontology's. For the religious minded, > we can show them the proper path of meditative practices to awaken their > inner understanding of the true nature of reality and their position in it. > And for all of them, while we give them exactly what they ask for, we manage > to show them the questions to ask themselves and, thereby, turn them toward > whatever they are missing in the other directions of theosophical > understanding and practice. > > >Leon wrote: < >theosophy really is "more "realistically about"? >> > > > >As I see it, there would seem not to be any solution, or > >"more realistic approach to Theosophy," that by-passes > >anything that's relevant to a broader and lasting > >understanding of Theosophy. In other words (?), > >regardless of whichever doctrine or approach one might > >be inclined to follow, if that approach is not wisely > >enough balanced with aspects of intellect, faith, and > >experience, the result might not be particularly > >representative of "Theosophic progress" . . . I'm making > >a "general comment," here, and not accusing anybody of > >not being wise enough. We all seem to be "wise enough" > >in our various "own ways," basically, often times, > >but/"but" . . . > > Yes. But . . . What? Studying theosophy has nothing to do with results. > One either needs to know, or not -- depending on where one stands on the road > to enlightenment, and what the confusion is in one's mind. Wisdom is knowing > what one needs to know or do. And that has to be left for individual choice. > Each of us is on a different level of understanding and openness to new > ideas. So, theosophy is as theosophy does. That's all there is to it. If > you need the head doctrine to do better as a theosophist, then that is what > you direct your questions and your studies toward. If you need to devote > yourself to a higher power or principle, then that is the direction of your > search. That's why it says in the Declaration of the United Lodge of > Theosophists; "It regards as Theosophists all those in the true service of > Humanity" ... And, "Welcomes . . . all those . . . who desire to fit > themselves, by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach > others" It's that "doing" (based on one's "knowing") that makes one a > successful theosophist. And what we can learn intellectually (scientifically > and philosophically) and religiously practice -- is what we need in order to > make that action the best we possibly can do at the level we are presently > at. Progress comes from just that -- without having to think about attaining > anything for oneself. > > Practically, positively and hopefully, > LHM > > >Speculatively, > >Mauri > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 08:06:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 16:06:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 2655 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 16:06:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 16:06:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 16:06:24 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 248E447FFBB for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:06:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006b01c28bf7$0d8b2140$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:01:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Brian wrote: "Brian: That sounds like some specially created wisdom, of someone who > refuses to study." My Sufilight answer: Well, Brian what is it to you to study wisdom ? Only academics cling to linear-thinking - and believe that to be number ONE ! The question by Frank could just as well have been does a fart fart if it exists ? No, but it smells !!! (- But allright, my analogy will maybe not be understood by any anti-theosophists here at theos-talk) I have one question to all your "%" percentage talk: Does thoughts KILL ? Are they spiritually tax-free ? from M. Sufilight with a bruised heart...and all... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:27 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > "Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism?" > My Sufilight answer: Well, I think , that differs on how fearfull you are. > > Brian: That sounds like some specially created wisdom, of someone who > refuses to study. > > Certainly there are many easy to read books on the subject, plus many > academic studies, which show what constitutes different forms of racism. > > Do racists want to kill or harm other people, in 99.99% of the case, > never ! > > Are all 100% nevertheless racist , yes ! > > Even 99.99% of the Nazi's during WWII would never want to kill any > Jews, and the 00,01% who did, didn't feel they where "racist" (read > Eichmans Diary's !) they merely wanted to "help humanity !" > > Of course on their terms. > > Brian, again so heretic. > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi Frank and all of you, > > > > You asked some questions. > > My Sufilight answers are given in the below. > > > > > > 1. Frank wrote: > > "Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism?" > > My Sufilight answer: > > Well, I think , that differs on how fearfull you are. > > To some the mere thought on races is quite enough. > > > > 2. Frank wrote: > > "I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters." > > My Sufilight answer: > > I can't really agree on that when we talk about all the Mahatma > Letters and > > when they are read in the mode > > we call "Dead-letter" reading. > > (I.e. according to Blavatsky and her use of the '7keys' in for instance > her > > book The Secret Doctrine, vol. 1, p.310-325). > > > > 3. Frank wrote: > > "Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > > > evolution?" > > My Sufilight answer: > > I havn't heard that view before ! Did I mention that in any of my e- > mails? > > I would say that will depend on how these so-called Masters do > mention their > > "ahead-ness", or if they are quoted properly and the like. REAL > Mahatma > > Masters are not really racists in any ordinary term and use of that > word. > > > > 4. Frank wrote: > > "Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism?" > > My Sufilight answer: > > I could guess, that some would think so if they read only excerpts of > his > > scriptures. And not many read Nietzsche and he didn't promote a > Theosophical > > Society - did he ? > > But you will have to ask people on that. But I think we should let poor > > Nietzsche get some peace. > > I think he needs it. > > > > > > 5. Frank wrote: > > "Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? > (Would > > that > > > be unjust to inferior or younger races?)" > > My Sufilight answer: > > What is this ? You must be joking Frank ! > > > > 6. Frank wrote: > > "Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults?" > > My Sufilgiht answer: > > Well,... It could be true ! > > > > 7. Frank wrote: > > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > > My Sufilight answer: > > I think the Shepard Christ would know, how to deal with that question ! > > I think you should know them on their fruits !!! > > > > That is maybe why one could think that some of the Mahatma Letters > are > > either OLD, > > or publicized by some stupid ignorant careless Theosophists while the > > Letters weren't for public eyes because of use of "the 7 keys", OR or > they > > were tampered with by a person ot two...OR ....? > > Anyway some of them are OLD compared with a "dead-letter" view. > > So I hold that at least one has been tampered with. > > > > The Mahatma Letters was for certain also created so that - some of - > the > > Theosophists would stop their Ideology of "BLIND BELIEF". I hold, that > THEY > > are a test for your capabilities to read the - "non-physical-files" or > > "libraries". The honest and true medtating neophyt or student will > learn to > > access these "libraries". > > Sometimes students access them without knowing, that that is what > they are > > doing. > > > > > > So Frank what are your views on the above. > > And to the readers feel free to do your best... > > > > > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with small bells transmitting sound in cosmos... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Reitemeyer" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:29 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE > CONCOCTION OF THE > > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > > > > > True, too. But I agree with the Nazarene Master who taught: > Someone must > > > bring temptation into the world, but be concerned that it's not you. > > > > > > Re the racism slanders: Every normal person knows that's all > propaganda > > from > > > the Jesuits who can't life with an evolutionary sheme. > > > The more that I never heard from theosophic foes any useful > definition > > what > > > racism is. > > > Is the acknowlegdement that races do exist already racism? > > > I for myself find no racism when reading the Mahatma Letters. > > > > > > Or is it already racism when the Masters claim to be ahead of us in > > > evolution? > > > Is Nietzsche's Superhuman racism? > > > Or is it racism to believe that all races and all men are EQUAL? > (Would > > that > > > be unjust to inferior or younger races?) > > > Is it childism to believe that children are inferior to the adults? > > > Is it sheepism to believe that sheep are different from wolves? > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:12 PM > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE > CONCOCTION OF THE > > > MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. > > > > > > > > > Hi Frank and all of you, > > > > > > But, let us not remember, that Brian helped bringing up the debate > on the > > > dangerous misunderstandings of Theosophical RACISM, which > a "dead-letter" > > > reading of the (to some people very important) Mahatma Letters > > comparatively > > > easy could establish in a newcomers mind. > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight with some... friendly words...and a smile > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 08:17:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 16:17:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 54105 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 16:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 16:17:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 16:17:06 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6850747FFB1 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:17:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <008b01c28bf8$8b3d5d00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:11:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dallas and all of you, I will have to suggest, that the issue of avoiding "dead-letter" reading and living would be given more importance, when one just throws - numbers on cycles out to the more or less public eyes. Allright or ? from M. Sufilight with a hovering attitude...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K > Nov 14 2002 > > Dear Friends: > > The enclosed gives a general survey of persons, societies etc... on > which Theosophy has had an impact or which served as the vehicles for > Theosophical thought in the past. If one looks closely the cycles of > thought can be traced. > > It is incomplete and is being modified or added constantly > > If you have any suggestions > > Thanks, > > Dallas > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > From: dalval14@earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:20 AM > To: blavatsky.net Study > Subject: FW: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K > > > A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY > __________ > > > Note > > This is an attempt to place events and personages within various > accepted and Theosophical time-frames. It is hoped that it will help > in observing evidence of the Wise Men and Sage Adepts of the past at > work. > > It will help the compilers if you would contribute any corrections or > additions to this growing project, as a result of your own study and > use of this list. > > Most time references are based on the periods that HPB has given us > in either Isis or The S.D., or in her articles. This is under active > completion and verification, hence, you will be asked to > excuse some errors that will be found, and invited to draw the > attention of the compilers to corrective facts. > > Verifying dates have occasionally been secured from Encyclopedia > Britannica and other sources, and those have been added to those > secured from Theosophical sources. If uncertain : c / ? . > > _______________________________ > > Abbreviations used: > > IS = Isis Unveiled Glos = Theosophical > Glossary > SD = The Secret Doctrine T = Theosophy > Magazine (LA) > Key = Key to Theosophy Theos't = Theosophist > (Adyar) > Lucif= Lucifer Magazine Path = The Path > (New York) > ML = Mahatma Letters T M = Theos. > Movement (Bombay) > Ocean= Ocean of Theosophy HPB Art = Collected HPB Articles > CWB = Collected Works HPB WQJ Art = Collected WQJ Articles > > > =========================================================== > > A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY > > Introduction > > > The sub-title given to this survey indicates the attention that H. P. > Blavatsky paid to the historical, factual aspect, of the records of > the Adepts. ( SD I 272 ) > > One of the factors faced in the effort to redirect a vision of the > scope of time past is the tendency, inherited from theological views > in the West, which tend to foreshorten history and dwarf the periods > of evolution that are a part of the lore of ancient nations especially > in the East, in their estimates or records concerning pre-historical > eras and epochs, and events which they recorded. > > This present list considers time periods given in records preserved by > the Great Lodge of Adepts, from which HPB gives fragments of data > relating to vast achievements in the Past--and records or reports of > its arts, sciences, technologies, buildings, chronologies, astronomy, > and a thousand other indications, which tend to show that we are, in > our present whirl of research, retracing the patterns of that past, > and adding to the testimony that increasingly validates it. > > Students of Theosophy take into account certain foundational concepts, > such as :-- > > 1. Reincarnation: that we are essentially in our spiritual, > natures, > immortals, and have lived many lives on this Earth;. We were present > in the ancient civilizations. > > 2. that Karma, the law of justice and of fairness to all > beings (from > the atom to Galaxy) is The Law for every aspect of the Universe; and > that it consists of an harmonic balance at all points; so that all > present circumstances can be traced to choices made earlier; > > 3. the ideal of Human Brotherhood is not a myth but a solid > fact > based on the common immortality of the Spiritual Person presiding in > each of us, and, as science and psychology demonstrate daily that we > share in each other, as in all aspects of Nature; and finally, > > 4. There is an actual, a Universal All--an Encompassing Unity > (or > Causation), which forms the living and sensitive base for all > evolution and all individual consciousness. > > A factor that serves to make the Universe, evolution, and man's > independence valuable, is the fact that it is, in reality, a vast > school. Every being (from the imponderable atom to the utmost reaches > of Space, is an entity, an immortal and conscious "something" (perhaps > a "pupil" of more or less advancement in the vast scheme. It is an > index of the intelligence that is innate in every life-atom that makes > cooperation with every other being possible, e.g., we could consider > cellular cooperation in our body, where some 100 trillion cells (made > up of an incredible amount of atoms and molecules) coordinate to give > us a physical basis of life and consciousness. > > The objects of the Theosophical Movement are:-- > > 1. To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity > without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color; > > 2. The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies and > sciences and the demonstration of the importance of such > study; and > > 3. The investigation of the unexplained laws of Nature and the > psychical powers latent in man. > ___________________________________ > > > C H R O N O L O G Y > > ================================================== > Year Groups or Tribes Notes and References > From To or Individuals > ================================================== > > Universal and World Periods SD II 69-70 OCEAN 125 > _____________________________ > > > 311,040,000 000 000 years = Maha Kalpa, or Life of Brahma > (100 of Brahma's years) > [311 trillion, 40 billion] SD II > 70 > > 3,110,400,000,000 years = 1 Year of Brahma SD II 70 > [ 3 trillion, 110 billion ] > > 8,640,000,000 years = 1 Day + 1 Night of Brahma > > 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa = l Day of Brahma or > 1,000 Maha-Yugas SD II 69 > or 14 Manus SD II 59-60 > [ see The Theosophist, Nov., 1885, p. 115-6; ] > > > 1 Day of Brahma = 4,294,080,000 years = 994 Maha-Yugas or > 14 Manus > > add 25,920,000 years = 1 Sandhi (twilight) SD II > 308fn > _____________________ > 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa or 1 Day of Brahma > (4 billion, 320 million) SD II 69-70 > > 1 Manvantara = 306,720,000 years = 71 Maha Yugas > of 4,320,000 years > > add 1,728,000 years = 1 Sandhi > SD > II 69 > ____________________ > 308,448,000 years = 1 Manvantara SD II > 69 > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > 4 Yugas [ The 4 "Ages" ] .[Hindu Astronomy] SD II 69 > ML p. 121, IS > I 32 > > 1,728,000 years = Krita (or Satya, or Golden Age-Yuga) > > 1,296,000 years = Treta (or Silver Age--Yuga ) > > 864,000 years = Dwapara ( or Bronze Age--Yuga ) > > 432,000 years - Kali ( or Black, Iron Age--Yuga ) > __________________ > 4,320,000 years = 1 Maha Yuga - or 1/1000th of Brahma's day > SD II 69; HPB III 422; Lucif XIII, 183-4 > > ============================== > > Chaldean Cycles . . . . . IS I 30 fn > > [ Berosus, Priest of the temple of Belus, Babylon ] > > 3,600 years = 1 Sar (or Saros ) > IS I 21, 30, 34, 533 II 467, Path X 301 > > 600 years = 1 Neros > > 60 years = 1 Sossus > > Berosus, Temple of Belus, Babylon IS I 30 fn > SD II 38 331 432 566; > SD I 114 314 389 435 649 655fn > Glos. 108 291 (Sar) 225 258 > > Solar or Heliacal Year 25,868 years SD I 314; Ocean 121 > ( 1 Sub-race ) > > > Metonic Moon Cycle 6,586 days = cycle of eclipses ( or revolution > = 18 yrs.11 1/2 day - the moon's node > [a cycle of 6,585 days (18.041 years) > > Grand Cycles > Orpheus: 120,000 years IS I 294 fn > Cassandrus 136,000 years IS I 294 fn > > > ====================================== > > > Our Earth > > 1,955,884,687 years (in 1887) from the beginning of > "cosmic evolution" SD II > 68 > - 300,000,000 Years as a Sandhi (twilight) > ______________ > 1,664,884,687 years (in 1887) from the first > appearance of "Humanity" (on this planetary > chain) as a physical form SD II 68 > > > ====================================== > > > B. C. > > LODGE OF ADEPTS Is II 98-103 S D I 272-3 > > 18,618,727 Lighting up of Manas [ mind ] (as in 1887) > SD I 150fn; SD II 69 254-5 > > 4,000,000 c. Engulfing of Lemuria (e.g.:--Easter Island) > SD I 439 > [4th Round, 4th Globe, 3rd "Race"] > > > Easter Island - SD I 322 439 II 224 317 > > Atlantis [ Titans / Kabiri / Cyclops ] > [4th Round, 4th Globe, 4th "Race"] > > 1,050,000 Beginning of the 5th "Race" SD II 141144 435 > > Vedas SD I 269-71 II 483-4 450 606 616 > T M 5-67 Glos 361 IS I 444 THY 2-468 > Theos't I-247 COL I TOP. WQJ ART II 82-3 Theos't > 9-428 > > Vedanta SD I 7 50-1 269 451 Glos 361 253 > > (Uttara Mimansa - Vyasa) > Theos't I-201 287 9-411; Lucif 6-119 > > Advaita (non-dualistic) SD I 8 55 522 II 637 GLOS 7 > (Shankaracharya - founder) ML 53-4 > Theos't 10-7; Glos 307 > Dwaita (dualistic) > > Manu Smriti (Code of Manu from Krita Yuga) IS I 585-6 > > > 1,000,000 Aryan Race began SD II 395 Theosophy V. 45, p. 219 > > Brahmin invasion of Northern India Is II 156fn 169 158 > Is II 323 192 SD I 209 > II 565 Glos 222 > > Persians, Turanians, Goths, Slavs Is. I 569-576 II 426-433 > > > > c. 1,000,000 - 500,000 B C > > > 998,100 Cataclysms: Atlantis begins sinking SD II 141 > Is I 557 593 SD II 10 144 Glos 42-3 > > 869,000 Dwapara Yuga Commencement (since 1888) SD II 147 > ( Kali-Yuga began 3,102 BC ) > > 850,000 Since submergence of last large peninsula of > the Great Atlantis SD II > 10 > > 850,000 Glacial Period est. by Stockwell & Croll SD II 141 144 > > 800,000 Angkor Wat built (2nd most Occult Edifice) Glos 223 > Is I 239 561-8 271-2 > > > 500,000 - 250,000 B C > > > 470,000 Babylon's astronomical observations said to go back to > this period > Nebo or Birs Nimrud, BCW 13-274 Isis I 533 > > 450,000 Epoch of Ramayana (Brahmin estimate) C & J p. 73 > Theos't Vol. 10-35 SD II 496 IS II 278 Glos > 275 > > 400,000 Egypt was settled by the Atlanteans and the Eastern > AEtheopeans SD II 750 > > > 250,000 - 100,000 B C > > > 250,000 + Last Glaciation of Europe Isis I 3 > > Pyramids were 3 times submerged SD I 313 424 > 617 > S D II 462-6 575 435 749-50 351-3 351-2 93 276fn > 429 462; GL 223 300; IS I 154 239 296-7 517-21 > THEOSOPHY Vol. 67-p.54 > > > Sphinx (Harmachus) SD II 124 618 Glos 135-6 Is I 573 > > 200,000 Chaldean Astronomical Observations extended back at the > time of Alexander's invasion Berosus SD I xxvi > > 200,000 Stockwell & Croll of last Glaciation SD II 141-4 > > > > 100,000 - 30,000 B C > > > > 78,000 + Denderah Zodiac [Egyptians brought from Lanka - Menes ] > SD II 374fn 431-6 456 577 580; IS I 440-1 > > 49,186 Egyptian Records go back to ( Diogenes Laertius ) > by 8,863 yrs. in 323 BC IS I 33 > > 34,300 Sumerian Tablet gives 32,234 yrs between Deluge > and last king of Isin c.200 BC Thy > 16, p.195 > > > 30,000 - 10,000 B C > > > 29,217 Alpha Polaris (Dhruva) (as Pole Star) (in 1888) > 31,105 yrs ago Glos. 17 > > 15,194 Zodiac Originated 1st degree of Aries ( Ram ) > > 15,086 Vernal Equinox and 1st degree of Libra coincided > ( 16,984 yrs ago in 1888 ) S D I 658 > > 12,300 Vyasa - Uttara Mimansa and Vedanta taught Isis II 621 > "Bhadarayana" SD I 50 269 451 Glos 361 > > 11,100 Vega (Alpha Lyrae was Pole Star Thy 17- p. 18 > > > > 10,000 - 6,000 B C > > > 9,566 Deluge of Deucalion. Last Island of Atlantis ML p. 155 > submerged. Last war between the 5 YRS OF THY 99fn > "Sons of God" of the "White Island" and SD II 406 > 444fn > the last Atlantean sorcerers ISIS I 589-594 > > 9,500 Atlantis - Last Island sank Timaeus"- Plato as narrated > by Priests of Sais to Solon TM 46-469 > > 8,000 Hindu Initiates had same Secret Philosophy then > as now (estimate) SD II 406 IS II 535 > > 8,000 Tchandalas begin to emigrate from India to Chaldea > SD II 200 Glos 323 165 IS I 135 551-2 578 > Isis II 438-9 SD I 313fn > > 7,975 End of the last Sidereal Year Ocean 129 SD I 649-50 > (9,868 yrs. before 1893) SD II 314 331 432 470 > > 6,500 c Zarathustra (6,000 yrs. before Plato c 400 BC) Gl 384-5 > IS I 19 II 141 SD I 464 II 323 Theos't I-135 > Thy 14-97 > [Zoroaster was a Title - 24 Zoroasters. The last > Zoroaster > (Guru-astera or Star Guru) was a contemporary > of Gautama Buddha. c. 600 BC ] > > > > 6,000 - 4,000 B C > > > 6,000/5,000 Trojan War nearer 6,000 than 5,000 BC S D II 37fn > Thy 27-103 IS I 520 598 Glos 96 (Dardanus) > SD II 101 236 440 > > 5,100 Neith (1st Dynasty) Egypt Lucif 2-465 SD I 399 > Glos 77 227 234 > > 4,100 c Manu-Vina (Menes) to Masra (Cairo) IS I 627 516 > SD II 335 374 431-2 436 746; Thy 15, 317 > > > > 4,000 - 3,000 B C > > > 3750 Sargon I reigned (Prof. A.H.Sayce) SD II 691 > > 3,700 Local Deluge in Middle East S D II 691 > > 3,200 c Date assigned to last Veda Vyasa by > the Brahmins. [Vyasa is a title.] Glos 362 > > 3,080 c Arjuna to Patala ( marries Ulupi ) SD II 214fn > [ Orphean Mysteries ] Glos 29 > ("Patala" = Mexico ) Thy 15, 546 IS II 561fn > > 3,100 c Orpheus identified with Arjuna Thy 27, 148 Glos 242 > (On travel to Patala, stops in Greece) > HPB ART III 138 IS I 532 II 129 550 > SD I 207 267fn 529 784 Lucif 16-273 > Theos't 5-20 Col 2 Bot, > > "Mysteries of Orpheus" established in Greece > > > 3,102 KRISHNA'S DEATH (18 Feb. 3,102 BC) Glos 170 387 > [ midnight 17/18 ] Thy. I-p. 374; IV-p. > 37 > > 3,102 Kali Yuga began Feb. 16, AM: 2 Hrs, 27 Min, 30 Sec. > [only precise time given in S D] > SD I 662 SD II 147 fn > > 3,102 Hindu Zodiac Begins at sunrise Feb 18th SD I 662 > ( origin of present Hindu era: "Vikram Samvat" > and Zodiac, Tiravalour, So.India ) > > 3,100 c Vikramaditya rules at Ujjain ("Vikram Samvat") SD I 662 > [ begins at Sunrise, February 18th 3,102 B C ] > > 3,100 c Fu - H'si ( Krishna of China ) Thy 14- 308 > > Po - H'si ( 1st Ruler of China) Thy > 14- 1 > > 3,100 c. Dwaraka (Gujerat, Kathiawar) submerged. > End of Yadus, Krishna' race Glos 374 > > > > 3,000 - 2,000 B C > > > 3,000 c Gilgamesh epic "Flood" of Jewish Bible Thy 16, 307 > > 2,875 c Akkadians (Semites) overrun Sumer Sargon IS I 576-78 > > 2,800 c Yi-King (Chinese Kabala in dialect of Akkadians) > Thy 25-444 > > 2,700 Hwang-Ti 3rd ruler after Po-H'si Thy 15-19 Thy 14-310 > > Babylon & Assyria Glos 47 37 IS I 567 ML 152 > THY 16-194 307 > > 2,253 Chaldean Astronomical Observations for past 1903 years > Calliosthenes to Aristotle (c 350 BC) IS I 21 > > Kasidim Glos 75 81 39 196 IS I xxviii 534 459 567 > HPB Art III 134 ML 152 CWB 5-13 326-8 SD II 620 > > 2,200 c Shu-King and Shi-King (China) Thy 14-310 IS I 11 > > Hammurabi (Code) Babylon Thy 16-196 > > 2,000 c Sumeria old texts with interlinear Semitic Thy 16-194 > translations Thy 21-414 > > > > 2,000 - 1,000 B C > > > 1,925 c Hittites capture Babylon IS I 567-8 > > 1,850 c Chung-Ki (China ) Thy 14-34 > > 1,700 c Knossos (Crete) at its height ISIS I 264 545 > [ c 3,000 BC - 1,400 BC ] > > 1,628 Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) > [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] > [ End of Minoan Civilization, and tidal waves > overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] > > 1,600 c Achaeans to Crete destruction of Knossos dynasty > Thera-Santorini volcano explodes > > 1,600 c Hyksos ( Semites ) overran Egypt IS I 569-70 > > 1,500 c Arameans over-ran Mesopotamia IS I 579 > > Phoenicians ( Semites ) IS I 569 567 572 545 > > 1,573 Moses born SD II 539 691 MOD PAN 45 HPB III 244 > IS I 3 555 SD I 320fn 385 > IS II 428 456 65 691 129 I 25 > > 1,447 Aries in its 15th degree SD II 436 fn SD I 658 > > 1,350 c Tutankhamen XVIII Dynasty (son-in-law of Ikhnaton) > Aton replaced Amon-Ra -- Thebes-capital of > Egypt > > 1,225 c Rameses II ( restored Karnak & many monuments ) > > Greeks: Aeolians Ionians Dorians Achaeans > > Scythians from central Asia begin invading Russia > Khazaks (in 8th Cent. identified with Jews ) > > 1,250 Sanchoniathon compiled religious writings SD II 440fn > IS I 234 341-2 577-8 II 260 275 > SD II 129 440 Glos 289 > > > > > 1,000 - 900 B C > > > 1,000 c Aztecs to Central America S D II 445 Thy 16, 70-1 > > 974-937 Solomon IS I 135 II 391 ML 345 SD II 591 M Pan 45-6 > > 970-936 Hiram I at Tyre (Phoenician Jews ) IS I 19 135 566-8 > > 945 Conjunction of all the Planets except Saturn SD II 63 > (Note: also great conj. in 1957, 1965-7 & Sun's > Eclipse ) > 900 c Inca Kings records begin Thy 16-25 Glos 154 > HPB Art III 428 IS I 595-8 > > 814 Founding of Carthage by Phoenicians in flight from Joshua, > son of Nun IS I 520 560 567 II 546 > > > > 700 - 600 B C > > > 8 Cent c Hesiod Poet - no certainty on, later than > Homer > Ascribed to him: Theogony > Shield of Heracles > Preserved Myths > SD I 425 648 II 450 603 764fn 775 IS I 558 567 > > 636c-546c Thales (Greece) Glos 326 IS I 24 512 526 > > Miletus - founder of Milesian School of philosophy > Matter was one: water - no writings extant > Taught geometry and astronomy - a Phoenician > Said learned from Babylonians and Egyptians > Predicted Sun eclipse of 585 B C - polytheist > one of the 7 Wise Men of Greece > > Egypt over-ran by Scyths, Assyrians, Medes, Cimmerians > > Hermetic Philosophy & Mysteries transferred > from Egypt to Greece Glos 140 219 Thy 27 196 > > > 700-600 B C > > MYSTERIES OF GREECE [ General Survey ] > > > Mysteries moved to Greece from Egypt Glos 219 140 > > Pythoness IS I xxxv-viii 358 531; II 590; Glos 266 > > Delphos (Mysteries of Apollo) Glos 267 295 > > Eleusis Thy 27, 149-152 532; Glos 112 > IS II 44 98 131 138 145 IS I xii HPB Art I 18 > Mod Pan 134-5 > > Ephesus Glos 114 27; IS II 155; Thy 28, 7 > > Samothrace IS I 132 234 302 570 23 > Glos 287 > > Sodales (and Sodalean Oath) IS I 301 555 > IS II 131 SD II 212; Glos 302 > > 1st Cent c Therapeutae ( Pythagoreans) Key, 5 72; IS I 19; > Glos 329 > > Theurgy Key 3; T M 18-148-151; IS I xlii; Gl 329 > > Corybantes SD II 106 I 400 Glos 47 43 88 92 > > Kybele Glos 182 > > Dactyli-Priests of Kybele IS I xxviii Glos 93 > > Dionysos ( Dio-Nysos ) Apollo Glos 102 47 97 > (similar to Osiris) - Sun IS I xiv > Mithras, Bacchus superseded IS II 165 491 560 > > Ceres Demeter Thy 39, 493; Glos 308 > > Persephone (Proserpina) > > 3,100 Orpheus (see 3,100 B C) IS II 35 129; > THY 25-58, 27-148; GLOS 242 219 > SD I 336 fn II 756; T M 18-181; > > > > 700 - 600 B C > > > 677 Phoenicia destroyed by Assyrians and Macedonians > Sea-faring Jews/Semites -founded Carthage, > emigrated to Spain, and North African Sea-Ports > > 639-559c Solon SD II 263 743 THY 27, 104 530 > {Re: Atlantis from Egyptian Saitic priests-- see > Plato's Timaeus ] > > Athenian Statesman founder of its "democracy" > Giver of laws and a reformer, also a poet > Restored freedom to peasants, curbed nobility > Unlawful to pledge one's liberty - > annulled all mortgages and debt - > established juries > Made an Archon in 594 BC - wrote constitution > > c Patanjali (founder of Yoga Philosophy) Glos 251 380 > Established a School on Indian Psychology > Mediation and deeper states discussed > Goal of human evolution explained > > c Panini (grammarian - codified Sanskrit) Glos 248 251 > > c Mahavira (Jain Saint) Ths't 6-95 SD II 423 IS II 322 > Last of 24 Tirthankaras HPB TO APS 242 Glos 335 > > 673 BC Assurbanipal Great Library in Babylon Glos 37 > > Pherecydes ( teacher of Pythagoras ) CWB 13-283-4 > > Nineveh and Babylon at their height SD II 692 IS I 403 > > Western Europe overran by Celts, Germans, Slavs > Glos 105 239 > > Druids (Bhrigu) Glos 57 IS I 18 576 > > 628-551c Zoroaster (latest) Thy 6-23 Thy 14-97 149 212 264 > > 621-543 Buddha: Gautama Sidartha Glos 65-6 126 286 > ML 43 96 78 SD II 423 I 161-2 THS'T 5-39 > HPB TO APS 242-3 T M 15-105 VOICE 78fn > T M 7-27 > > 611c-547c Anaximander b. Miletus - pupil of Thales > Detailed explanation of all Nature - wrote > Space as origin of all - pairs of opposites > Eternal motion, churning of space into opposites > Plurality of worlds - evolution of man's body > from fish in water > Astronomer defined solstices and equinoxes > Gonom for measuring Sun's direction and height > > 604- c Lao Tse Glos 186 320 SD I xxv Thy 15-18 70 Thy 20-51 > > > 600 - 500 B C > > > [6 Cent] Anaximenes b. Miletus - pupil of Anaximander > Proposed air as basic principle in Nature > relates to Space and its nature > Stars move around the earth > "Gods" arose from the "air." > > > 586-500 Pythagoras (Crotona) Thy 27-244 70-365 71- 16, Glos 266 > IS I 12 532 347fn xvi 7 9 291 181 338 Lucif IV > IS II 144-5 338 452 491fn HPB ART I 431 439 > BCW 13-283 Path 1 39 Trans. 106 T M 37-467 > > 570-480 c Xenophanes . . . . . IS II 212 242 > > > > Manticism (Prophetic frenzy - Melampus > and Proteus) Glos 205 > > 550-478 Confucius Glos 82 186 SD Ixxv 162 186 320 440 > Thy 14, 395 351 Thy 14-395 Mod Pen 43 > > 535c-475c Heraclitus of Ephesus (a Milesian) Thy 27 196 > No permanent reality except universal change. > Permanence an illusion of the senses. > Duality of contrast was eternal - death and life > balanced each other > Becoming, the only state, because it was > transitional. > Taught fire to be the substratum of the Universe > Man's soul was shared, ray of the Universal Soul. > > Ananda (Pupil of Gautama Siddartha Buddha ) > > Katyayana (Buddha's pupil) Glos 2-3 > > Rishi Gautama (Jain Tirthankara) > [Nyaya philos.] Glos 253 > > Gaudapadacharya (Shankara's Paraguru) SD I 457fn > > 514c- Parminedes (Eleatic School materialism) IS I 24 > Demanded reasoned proof for assertions > Being is the material substance of what the > Universe is composed - called it the sole > eternal reality. > All else is illusion because of change, motion, > no "empty space." > > 521- Cambyses of Persia - conquered Egypt Thy 27, 244 > (took Pythagoras to Babylon, Assyria) > > 525-456 Aeschulus (70 dramas / tragedies) Thy 27, 532 > > Aryasangha ( Disciple of Buddha ) Glos 32 > (Mahayana School) > > > 500 - 400 B C > > > -4th Cent. Druids of Gaul, Britain [ till conversion of > Constantine to Christianity > - Edict issued to forcibly convert all in > Roman empire to Christianity ] > > 521-485 Darius I invaded Greece > > 510 Mysteries opened to those who could pay a fee forcing > degradation. (Neo-Platonists restored 200 AD) > Thy 27-147 Thy 28-3 > > 500-432 c Phidias (Sculpture - Jupiter Athena, Parthenon ) > > 510- Shankaracharya (Reincarn of Buddha Gautama to reform > Brahmins.) > Worked in So. India. Smarthava sect. > Adwaita (non-dualist) philos. Glos 307 288 > SD I 86 271 457fn LUCIFER 4-387 Theos't 5-7 > BCW 12-346fn > > 500-428 c Anaxagoras (friend of Socrates) Glos 21 > > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > 4th c Serapis ( worship of, in Egypt) Thy 25- 203 > > =================== > > PLATONIC ACADEMY > > > 428-348 Plato Glos 256; SD II 395 554; Thu 27, 434 483 > IS II 100 338; SD I 162; > > PLATONIC ACADEMY started > > 469-399 Socrates HPB ART I 17f THY 27-387; IS II 117-8 > > 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Academy) HPB Art I 12 > > 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; > Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; > HPB ART Vol. I 16 19; SD I 615; > Glos 73 256 227 384 SD II 153; > ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) > > 484-424 Herodotus (history) > > 432 c Meton (astronomy) Lunar cycle 19 years - of phases > > 460 c Ezra (compiled Pentateuch) SD II 143 IS I 568 578 > IS II 128 HPB Art III 245 Thy 25-10 Glos 117 > > 460-357 Hippocrates (healer) IS I xxxvii 425-6; GLOS 142 > Thy 22, 101; Thy 39, 405 > > Philolaus (Discip. of Pythagoras, math. & codified) > > 490-430 Empidocles > > 460-370 c Democritus (maths, Physics, atom, ) Thy 27, 35 > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > c Leucippus (taught Democritus) IS I 61 > > c Quetzal Coatl Thy 16-113; Thy 16-70-2 > > 485-406 Euripides (Drama) Thy 27-531; Thy 24-496 > > 430-355 c Xenophon (pupil of Socrates ) > > 490-429 Pericles (Social and political reform) > > 448-380 Aristophanes (comedies) > > 495-406 Sophocles (drama & poetry) > > Theucidides > > 408-355 c Eudoxus (astronomer, Math. physician) > > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > Hem-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-161 > > Chwang-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-213 > > 331 Alexandria founded Thy 25-6; Thy 27-33; Glos 54 > > 356-323 Berosus (Chaldean) Glos 54-5 > > 356-323 Alexander "The Great" Conquests frontiers of India - > to Indus > > 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; > Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; I 16 > 19; > Glos 73 256 227 384, SD II 153; SD I 615; > ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) > > > 300 - 200 B C > > STOICS > > 340-265 Zeno (founded Stoic Philosophers) > > 300 c Euclid (systematic geometry ) > > 323-283 Ptolemy I (Soter) Glos 16; Thy 25 p 6 > Alexandrian Library -- 700,000 Rolls > SD I 353 659-60 664 IS I 21 > > 396-314 Xenocrates (Pupil of Plato) Thy 5, 104 164 > > 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Plato's Academy) HPB Art I 12 > > Heraclides > > "Buddhism in India" (article) Thy 12, 506 > > 371-288 c Mencius Thy 15, 113 > > > > 300 - 200 B C > > > "Shu-King" (china) Thy 14, 310 > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 08:23:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 16:23:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 24789 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 16:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 16:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 16:23:46 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B699247FEF3 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:23:45 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <009301c28bf9$7b13adc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:18:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brain and all of you, As "credentials" seems to have importance to you I have a question to ask a question - although it is a little offline. What "credentials" do you (Brian) think the so-called Avatar guru Sathya Sai Baba from Puttaparthi India has ? Has his life only been a fake since he left school 14 years old ? Have you ever meet the guy ? Has anyone on this list ? And what are their comments ? from M. Sufilight with great fun... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. > > Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list although (in spite > of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to him, > Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to Leon > Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > > As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made an > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up , > see below. > > Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to receiving only > nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come back to write > the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at first. > > He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio-syndrome, > he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA > Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu Conference co- > sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, and > held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. > > While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he was > invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to sit on > the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, > under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the > Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non- > proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the United > Nations. > > He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary extended > master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion and > theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator > before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain his > Degree. > > In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World > Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he gave a West > Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, Greek, > Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And > organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of the > Sun" Exhibit. > > He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient > Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist connections > at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic conference > held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he recieved > and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single scholar could > challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a full-page > article in the News-India Times about this. > > He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such Days and > Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to hundreds > of thousands listeners. > > But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week West > Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several months. But > he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two of his > papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. > > Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it is unlikely > that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World Association for Vedic > Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, and suffers > periodic central vision loss. > > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real > person. > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this > > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the > identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be > capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. Meaning one > must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a > cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since > B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of > his letters On-line: > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 08:34:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 16:34:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 99829 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 16:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 16:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 16:32:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 16:31:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:31:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. " Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005d01c28bf4$ba6d46c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3460 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? Whether they are called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) makes no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races idea is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit literatures means 'white race.'" Quoted from: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references to HPB's writings where we could find support for his statements. As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does she use these terms? I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE under the term "Aryan(s) Race." Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------------- Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth adept astronomers of II 699 adepts I vii; II 495 adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 ancestors of Egyptians II 328 Arabs are later II 200 Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 Atlanteans taught II 426 born in the north II 768 branches of II 106 bull symbolizes II 533 called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 Carlyle q on II 470 cataclysm will destroy II 445 colonies fr Atlantis II 266n common religion before separation I xxix cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 decimal system I 360-2 descend fr yellow Adams II 426 dvijas II 469 early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 era, figures given II 68n Europeans & Christians latest I 425 fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 Fohat key to, religions I 673 height of, after third subrace II 753 Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 influence on Babylonian myth II 130 initiated, view of Moon I 396 Kabbala came fr I 376 kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 languages II 199-200 &nn magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 many colors of II 249-50 migrated to India II 609 mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 Mysteries based on number ten II 603 Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 Peris or Izeds were II 394 philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 Rama first divine king of II 495 rel concepts not just physiological II 526 root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 &n separated two - three million years ago II 425 sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 taught emanation, not creation II 54 tribes conquered Egypt II 746 Trojan ancestors were II 101 Veda theogony of II 450 war w Atlanteans II 384, 395, 495, 776 Western, in kali-yuga I 644-5 wisdom II 449-51 woman's status in early I 382 zodiac fr Sons of Yoga II 436n From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 08:51:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 16:51:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 9416 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 16:51:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 16:51:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 16:51:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 16:51:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:51:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: HPB on the "Aryan races" and "the unity of the human species" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1630 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Read what Brigitte Muehlegger and Bhakti Ananda Goswami have written about what Blavatsky taught on races, etc. and then COMPARE and CONTRAST their statements with, for example, the following extracts from HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE: "The Aryan races, for instance, now varying from dark brown, almost black, red-brown-yellow, down to the whitest creamy colour, are yet all of one and the same stock -- the Fifth Root-Race -- and spring from one single progenitor, called in Hindu exotericism by the generic name of Vaivasvata Manu. . . . " SD, II, 249-250. "Nor is this archaic teaching so very unscientific, since one of the greatest naturalists of the age -- the late Professor Agassiz -- admitted the multiplicity of the geographical origins of man, and supported it to the end of his life. The unity of the human species was accepted by the illustrious Professor of Cambridge (U.S.A.) in the same way as the Occultists do -- namely, in the sense of their essential and original homogeneity and their origin from one and the same source: -- e.g., Negroes, Aryans, Mongols, etc., have all originated in the same way and from the same ancestors. The latter were all of one essence, yet differentiated, because belonging to seven planes which differed in degree though not in kind. That original physical difference was but little more accentuated by that of geographical and climatic conditions, later on. This is not the theory of Agassiz, of course, but the esoteric version. . . . " SD, II, 607, footnote. Extracts taken from http://secretdocrine.net Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 09:39:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 17:39:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 67588 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 17:39:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:39:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Vedas ("a fountain of poison"), Hinduism, Madame Blavatsky and Nazism !!!!! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1391 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell There are alot of interesting webpages on the WWW about Blavatsky, Nazism, etc. Below is an excellent example of the "wild" undocumented statements to be found on this subject. Kalimuthu Dhanasekaran writes: ---------------------------------- The Vedas are veriably a fountain of poison that has periodically infested the veins world with its dangerous dogmas. Ramaite apartheid, Kautilyan totalitarianism and Brahmanic Fascism are some of the deadly venom that Hinduism has spewed forth onto the world. Nazism is another such deadly scourge invented by the Brahminist Vaishnavas that has devastated the world. The Nazis adopted all their fundamental dogmas from Hinduism. Besides the swastika, the Nazis adopted the Vedic concepts of the superiority of the Aryan race and of course, apartheid. Some of the more famous Indian Nazis are described below : Madame Blavatsky - The origin of Nazism can be traced back directly to Madame Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society. Madame Blavatsky propounded the notion of the superiority of the Aryan race, an idea derived from Vedic concepts of varnashramadharma (apartheid). These were then used by the Thule Society in Germany, which was the direct precursor of the National Socialist Party. . . . Quoted from: http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra000/nazi_ind.html ---------------------------------------------- From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 09:50:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 17:50:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 64474 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 17:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 17:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 17:50:00 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CO7r-00041w-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:49:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:50:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mic Forster wrote: > The general trend is that as a race Indigenous > Australians are doing relatively well, although their > equal status with other non-Indigenous status is far > from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal > Australians were meant to naturally die out why are > they still prospering today? One could reply that they > have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians > that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the > sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and > culture without any corruption. There is not one > Indigenous Australian today who could claim that they > do everything exactly as it was done in 1788. And in > this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to > antiquity. In terms of reincarnation, bloodlines are irrelevant. Culture is far more important. So I would say that, in terms of dying out, we are referring more to the last part of the sentence. Let us take a look at reincarnation, in the Theosophical sense. The reincarnating principle (confusingly but more easily referred to as a "monad") is attracted to physical bodies that have the highest chance of moving it forward in an evolutionary path. With a stagnated culture that has been around for a long time, it becomes a "been there, done that" path. But if the culture changes, it no longer is the same culture, and therefore becomes a much more fruitful one into which to incarnate. I am of the belief that, if there is more than one way to interpret Theosophical literature, a good indicator of the correct interpretation is new scientific discovery. And since the Human Genome Project has demonstrated that the genes involved with what is commonly called "race" are not only just a small part of the human genome, but also isolated; they tend to be unconnected with traits other than superficial ones. Therefore, when these races are referred to, at least in the Primary Literature, I believe the reference is to cultural differences brought on by geographical isolation, not genetic ones. You can take people from the so-called "races" all over the world, but if they're born in America, they're Americans. And the fact that the United States affords a place unique in the world where people from the various geographical cultures to mix freely, that is why I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded in the United States. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 09:55:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 17:55:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 76891 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 17:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 17:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 17:55:21 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 595B82629E9 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:55:20 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001501c28c06$463b9ec0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:50:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, I have to ask to clarify: But Daniel is Theosophy really ONLY that MUCH about scriptures from HPB, W.Q. Judge, etc...? Does books like The Upanishads, The New Testament, The Quran, The Bhagavad Gita, etc... and books like those from Ibn Arabi, Jalal-Uddin Rumi, Saadi Shiraz etc... or Geoffrey Higgins, Idries Shah, Doctor Maximus (>:-)), Sir Francis Bacon, Shakespeare, etc... and books like those from T. D. Suzuki, Lao Tze etc... NOT have any theosophical value ??? Are there important difference between the latter books and the former , and what are they if any ? Try for instance: www.sirbacon.org from M. Sufilight with a very excited look in his head... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:13 PM Subject: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? > Brigitte Muehlegger comments in her well-known style: > > "People like Dallas the Broek (Dalval) or Daniel Caldwell do is > shower people with outdated Theosophical propaganda material. It is > like with Jehovas Witnesses (have you ever seen someone try to get > you to 'look' at The Watchtower ?), well they know that once reading > the stuff many people often do join." > > Yes, Brigitte, I do publish on my website as well as quote on this > forum original Theosophical documents. Dr. James Santucci wrote in > THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY that my website was a treasure trove of primary > source material on Blavatsky and Theosophy. > > If I remember correctly both you and your alter ego ALSO quote from > various historical documents on Blavatsky and Theosophy. Should we > characterize some of THOSE documents as "outdated [anti?]Theosophical > propaganda material"? :) > > Furthermore, since Theos-Talk IS a Theosophical discussion forum, it > is not surprising that subscribers might post Theosophical material > here! > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Thu Nov 14 10:24:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 18:24:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 74044 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 18:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 18:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 18:24:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.144] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 18:23:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:23:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <009301c28bf9$7b13adc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6593 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn GREETINGS, I HAVE NOT MET HIM, BUT HAVE KNOWN SOME OF HIS DISCIPLES YEARS AGO. ONE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME OF BEING SEXUALLY FONDLED BY HIM FOR 'HEALING'. NOW APPARENTLY NUMEROUS PRESENT YOUTHS AND FORMER MOLESTED YOUTHS HAVE COME FORWARD TELLING OF YEARS PEDOPHILIA COMMITTED BY HIM....CONFIRMING EXACTLY WHAT THE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME. I HAVE ALSO BEEN TOLD BY HIS DISCIOPLES THAT THEY HAVE WITNESSED HIS SLIGHT-OF-HAND 'MIRACLES'. AT THE WORLD HINDU CONFERENCE AND OTHER OCCASIONS OF CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH HINDU 'MIRACLE' WORKERS, I WAS OFTEN ABLE TO DETECT THEIR TRICKERY. MOST OF IT WORKS BECAUSE OF THEIR SUCCESSFUL ABILITY TO DISTRACT THEIR VIEWERS FROM THE REAL CAUSE OF THE 'MIRACLE'. SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON IT, AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE PICTURE UNDETECTED. PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH CHARLATANS AND MOLESTERS, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi Brain and all of you, > > As "credentials" seems to have importance to you I have a question to ask a > question - although it is a little offline. > > What "credentials" do you (Brian) think the so-called Avatar guru Sathya Sai > Baba from Puttaparthi India has ? > Has his life only been a fake since he left school 14 years old ? > Have you ever meet the guy ? > Has anyone on this list ? And what are their comments ? > > > from > M. Sufilight with great fun... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:46 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. > > > > Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list although (in > spite > > of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to him, > > Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to Leon > > Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > > > Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > > > > As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made an > > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up , > > see below. > > > > Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to receiving only > > nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come back to write > > the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at first. > > > > He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio- syndrome, > > he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA > > Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu Conference co- > > sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, and > > held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. > > > > While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he was > > invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to sit on > > the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, > > under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the > > Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non- > > proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the United > > Nations. > > > > He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary extended > > master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion and > > theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator > > before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain his > > Degree. > > > > In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World > > Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he gave a West > > Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, Greek, > > Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And > > organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of the > > Sun" Exhibit. > > > > He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient > > Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist connections > > at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic conference > > held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he recieved > > and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single scholar could > > challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a full-page > > article in the News-India Times about this. > > > > He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such Days and > > Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to hundreds > > of thousands listeners. > > > > But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week West > > Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several months. But > > he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two of his > > papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. > > > > Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it is unlikely > > that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World Association for Vedic > > Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, and suffers > > periodic central vision loss. > > > > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real > > person. > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > > > > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > > > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this > > > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the > > identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be > > capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. Meaning one > > must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a > > cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since > > B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of > > his letters On-line: > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 10:48:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 18:48:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 52185 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 18:48:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 18:48:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 18:48:49 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 77033263195 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:48:48 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:43:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart an all of you, Bart wrote: "You can take people from > the so-called "races" all over the world, but if they're born in > America, they're Americans. And the fact that the United States affords > a place unique in the world where people from the various geographical > cultures to mix freely, that is why I believe that the Theosophical > Society was founded in the United States." My Sufilight answer: Mix freely ? Well, what about the black guys in jail, which clearly outnumber the WHITE ones ? Who are mixing who on that issue ? What is freedom, when it is not social ? What about the Afghan "muslims" at Cuba ??? A sweet joke: I know a friend called Bart: www.thesimpsons.com USA stinks ! Try for instance the Netherlands or "the natives" in the Amazon Jungle - or another place instead. from M. Sufilight with a sort of a perspective... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Mic Forster wrote: > > The general trend is that as a race Indigenous > > Australians are doing relatively well, although their > > equal status with other non-Indigenous status is far > > from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal > > Australians were meant to naturally die out why are > > they still prospering today? One could reply that they > > have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians > > that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the > > sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and > > culture without any corruption. There is not one > > Indigenous Australian today who could claim that they > > do everything exactly as it was done in 1788. And in > > this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to > > antiquity. > > In terms of reincarnation, bloodlines are irrelevant. Culture is far > more important. So I would say that, in terms of dying out, we are > referring more to the last part of the sentence. > > Let us take a look at reincarnation, in the Theosophical sense. The > reincarnating principle (confusingly but more easily referred to as a > "monad") is attracted to physical bodies that have the highest chance of > moving it forward in an evolutionary path. With a stagnated culture that > has been around for a long time, it becomes a "been there, done that" > path. But if the culture changes, it no longer is the same culture, and > therefore becomes a much more fruitful one into which to incarnate. > > I am of the belief that, if there is more than one way to interpret > Theosophical literature, a good indicator of the correct interpretation > is new scientific discovery. And since the Human Genome Project has > demonstrated that the genes involved with what is commonly called "race" > are not only just a small part of the human genome, but also isolated; > they tend to be unconnected with traits other than superficial ones. > Therefore, when these races are referred to, at least in the Primary > Literature, I believe the reference is to cultural differences brought > on by geographical isolation, not genetic ones. You can take people from > the so-called "races" all over the world, but if they're born in > America, they're Americans. And the fact that the United States affords > a place unique in the world where people from the various geographical > cultures to mix freely, that is why I believe that the Theosophical > Society was founded in the United States. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 11:07:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:07:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 81220 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:07:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:07:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:07:02 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BB20263143 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:07:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003101c28c10$49c35a60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:01:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Thanks "Bhakti" for your eehm sort of 'kind' answer. Try this friendly meant joke and remark: You know - I have some days back heard from a friend of mine, that a guy called something like B. A. Goswamilk are romoured to spend his time - running smear-campaigns at other people and organizations. Lately his has shifted from NOT ONLY campaigning against Theosophy to also include a so-called Avatar by the name Sathya Sai Baba in his campaigning. It is romoured, that his smear campaigns are so wild, that he creates quite a crowd coming forward testifying - that his smear campaigns are the wildest they have ever seeen for the last 20 years or so. His smear campaigns have earned him a lot of "credentials" which shows everyone his capeabilities. And all those without "credentials" most be quite stupid to think, that it is not important to have such "credentials". Even the spiritual "policemen" are amased. I have to state, that romours are not a proof !!! I have to state the facts: I am REALLY - PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH a smear CHARLATAN AND smear MOLESTER. from M. Sufilight with a lot of friendly HEALING...and some small sufis with true Miracles... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > GREETINGS, > > I HAVE NOT MET HIM, BUT HAVE KNOWN SOME OF HIS DISCIPLES YEARS AGO. > ONE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME OF BEING SEXUALLY FONDLED BY HIM > FOR 'HEALING'. NOW APPARENTLY NUMEROUS PRESENT YOUTHS AND FORMER > MOLESTED YOUTHS HAVE COME FORWARD TELLING OF YEARS PEDOPHILIA > COMMITTED BY HIM....CONFIRMING EXACTLY WHAT THE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME. I > HAVE ALSO BEEN TOLD BY HIS DISCIOPLES THAT THEY HAVE WITNESSED HIS > SLIGHT-OF-HAND 'MIRACLES'. AT THE WORLD HINDU CONFERENCE AND OTHER > OCCASIONS OF CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH HINDU 'MIRACLE' WORKERS, I WAS > OFTEN ABLE TO DETECT THEIR TRICKERY. MOST OF IT WORKS BECAUSE OF > THEIR SUCCESSFUL ABILITY TO DISTRACT THEIR VIEWERS FROM THE REAL > CAUSE OF THE 'MIRACLE'. > > SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE > LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON IT, > AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO > CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE > PICTURE UNDETECTED. > > PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH CHARLATANS AND MOLESTERS, > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi Brain and all of you, > > > > As "credentials" seems to have importance to you I have a question > to ask a > > question - although it is a little offline. > > > > What "credentials" do you (Brian) think the so-called Avatar guru > Sathya Sai > > Baba from Puttaparthi India has ? > > Has his life only been a fake since he left school 14 years old ? > > Have you ever meet the guy ? > > Has anyone on this list ? And what are their comments ? > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with great fun... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:46 PM > > Subject: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > > > > leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. > > > > > > Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list > although (in > > spite > > > of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to > him, > > > Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking > to Leon > > > Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > > > > > Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > > > > > > As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > > > > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made > an > > > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked > them up , > > > see below. > > > > > > Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to receiving > only > > > nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come back > to write > > > the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at > first. > > > > > > He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio- > syndrome, > > > he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA > > > Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu > Conference co- > > > sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, > and > > > held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. > > > > > > While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he > was > > > invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to > sit on > > > the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, > > > under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the > > > Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non- > > > proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the > United > > > Nations. > > > > > > He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary > extended > > > master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion > and > > > theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator > > > before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain > his > > > Degree. > > > > > > In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World > > > Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he gave a > West > > > Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, > Greek, > > > Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And > > > organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of > the > > > Sun" Exhibit. > > > > > > He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient > > > Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist > connections > > > at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic > conference > > > held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he > recieved > > > and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single > scholar could > > > challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a > full-page > > > article in the News-India Times about this. > > > > > > He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such Days > and > > > Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to > hundreds > > > of thousands listeners. > > > > > > But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week > West > > > Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several > months. But > > > he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two of his > > > papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. > > > > > > Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it is > unlikely > > > that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World Association > for Vedic > > > Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, and > suffers > > > periodic central vision loss. > > > > > > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real > > > person. > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > > > > > > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > > > > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , > give this > > > > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the > > > identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to > be > > > capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. > Meaning one > > > must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending > a > > > cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since > > > B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed > two of > > > his letters On-line: > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 11:09:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:09:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 59505 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:09:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 19:09:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:09:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Stubbs and Goswami on the "Gebhard Letter" Account Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3236 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Concerning the "Gebhard Letter" account which can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8451 Steve Stubbs recently commented on this forum: "The Shannon letter and the Gebhard letter are GOOD CANDIDATES for evidence that some letters were delivered by PHENOMENAL means." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8398 caps added Now Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: "SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON IT, AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE PICTURE UNDETECTED." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8718 Goswami's comments are an excellent example of what I have written about many times on this forum. To briefly explain, I quote an extract from "Deviant Science: The Case of Parapsychology" by James McClenon where he is writing about a critic's strategy of "unpacking" any successful parapsychological experiment. "The goal of the critic using this strategy is to 'unpack' and examine in detail any experiment, and to demonstrate how methodological flaws could have entered into the experimental process, thereby producing an invalid results. . . . The critic ...thinks of some...methodological flaw that could have occurred. . . .His or her 'unpacking' of methodological assumptions tends to render the experiment into an anecdotal form. . . .This unpacking strategy makes the 'perfect' ESP experiment an impossibility. Sooner or later, the critic will ask for information that is no longer available, or for a degree of experimental control and exactitude that is desirable in principle but impossible in practice. . . .[Another] rhetorical ploy is to demand total perfection. It is always possible for critics to think of more rigid methodological procedures after an experiment has been conducted. . . . The a priori arguments of the critics mean it is highly logical to assume that, within all experiments which successfully 'prove' the existence of psi, there must be an 'error some place'." Ray Hyman, a psychologist and skeptic of the paranormal, has agreed that in using such a METHOD OF ARGUMENT: "it is ALWAYS POSSIBLE to'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." caps added In effect, this type of argument and the process of unpacking an experiment or a testimonial account becomes a game in which a critic cannot lose. The "possibility/plausibility" method of argument is a very useful tool in unpacking and throwing doubt on ANY normal or paranormal event/experience/experiment. For more details and additional information, see my article at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/possibleversusprobable.htm For more examples of the UNPACKING strategy and the method of argument by POSSIBILITIES, see: Example 1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4423 Example 2: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/6173 Example 3: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/6146 Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Thu Nov 14 11:15:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:15:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1175 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:15:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 19:15:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:15:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. " Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7735 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR MR. CALDWELL, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME INTERPRETED BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' AS IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE TARA'. I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED ANTI- RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY IMPRESSIVE ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN FACT, IN ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL POST THAT NOTE HERE. HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS FROM A WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST AND ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT IS THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE AND THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU WHO LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING FOR THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. BOTH ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE WANTED TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND CONTINUES TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM HUMANITY'S FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS WORLD WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, THAT FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THIS PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A PROFOUNDLY DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. I AM NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER-MINDED THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED LOOSE IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS AND SETTLE THERE. PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF IDEAS WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN THOSE IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE CONTEXT OF ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. Whether they are > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) makes > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races idea > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > literatures means 'white race.'" MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / ARYAN WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY NAME HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), HARA (SHIVA), HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, HURRI OF THE HURRIANS HELI OF THE HELLENES HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) SOLE OF THE ROMANS ETC. THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW ELYM, HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, ETC., WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF-FROM OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > Quoted from: > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references to HPB's > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood or > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does she > use these terms? > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE under > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > adept astronomers of II 699 > adepts I vii; II 495 > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > Arabs are later II 200 > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > Atlanteans taught II 426 > born in the north II 768 > branches of II 106 > bull symbolizes II 533 > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > Carlyle q on II 470 > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > common religion before separation I xxix > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > decimal system I 360-2 > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > dvijas II 469 > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > era, figures given II 68n > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > height of, after third subrace II 753 > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > Kabbala came fr I 376 > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > languages II 199-200 &nn > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > many colors of II 249-50 > migrated to India II 609 > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > Rama first divine king of II 495 > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 &n > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > Trojan ancestors were II 101 > Veda theogony of II 450 > war w Atlanteans II 384, 395, 495, 776 > Western, in kali-yuga I 644-5 > wisdom II 449-51 > woman's status in early I 382 > zodiac fr Sons of Yoga II 436n From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Thu Nov 14 11:20:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:20:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 69299 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003101c28c10$49c35a60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9049 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn I DONT THINK THAT THE PERSONAL TESTIMONIES OF MANY MOLESTED YOUTHS ARE RUMORS. I WOULD NOT HAVE REPEATED MERE RUMORS. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi all of you, > > Thanks "Bhakti" for your eehm sort of 'kind' answer. > > Try this friendly meant joke and remark: > You know - I have some days back heard from a friend of mine, that a guy > called something like > B. A. Goswamilk > are romoured to spend his time - running smear-campaigns at other people and > organizations. > Lately his has shifted from NOT ONLY campaigning against Theosophy to also > include a so-called Avatar by the name Sathya Sai Baba in his campaigning. > It is romoured, that his smear campaigns are so wild, that he creates quite > a crowd coming forward testifying - that his smear campaigns are the wildest > they have ever seeen for the last 20 years or so. > His smear campaigns have earned him a lot of "credentials" which shows > everyone his capeabilities. > And all those without "credentials" most be quite stupid to think, that it > is not important to have such "credentials". Even the spiritual "policemen" > are amased. > > I have to state, that romours are not a proof !!! > > > I have to state the facts: > I am REALLY - PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH a smear CHARLATAN AND smear > MOLESTER. > > > > from > M. Sufilight with a lot of friendly HEALING...and some small sufis with true > Miracles... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > GREETINGS, > > > > I HAVE NOT MET HIM, BUT HAVE KNOWN SOME OF HIS DISCIPLES YEARS AGO. > > ONE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME OF BEING SEXUALLY FONDLED BY HIM > > FOR 'HEALING'. NOW APPARENTLY NUMEROUS PRESENT YOUTHS AND FORMER > > MOLESTED YOUTHS HAVE COME FORWARD TELLING OF YEARS PEDOPHILIA > > COMMITTED BY HIM....CONFIRMING EXACTLY WHAT THE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME. I > > HAVE ALSO BEEN TOLD BY HIS DISCIOPLES THAT THEY HAVE WITNESSED HIS > > SLIGHT-OF-HAND 'MIRACLES'. AT THE WORLD HINDU CONFERENCE AND OTHER > > OCCASIONS OF CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH HINDU 'MIRACLE' WORKERS, I WAS > > OFTEN ABLE TO DETECT THEIR TRICKERY. MOST OF IT WORKS BECAUSE OF > > THEIR SUCCESSFUL ABILITY TO DISTRACT THEIR VIEWERS FROM THE REAL > > CAUSE OF THE 'MIRACLE'. > > > > SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE > > LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON IT, > > AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO > > CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE > > PICTURE UNDETECTED. > > > > PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH CHARLATANS AND MOLESTERS, > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Brain and all of you, > > > > > > As "credentials" seems to have importance to you I have a question > > to ask a > > > question - although it is a little offline. > > > > > > What "credentials" do you (Brian) think the so-called Avatar guru > > Sathya Sai > > > Baba from Puttaparthi India has ? > > > Has his life only been a fake since he left school 14 years old ? > > > Have you ever meet the guy ? > > > Has anyone on this list ? And what are their comments ? > > > > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight with great fun... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:46 PM > > > Subject: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > > > > > > > leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. > > > > > > > > Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list > > although (in > > > spite > > > > of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to > > him, > > > > Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking > > to Leon > > > > Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > > > > > > > Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > > > > > > > > As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > > > > > > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made > > an > > > > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked > > them up , > > > > see below. > > > > > > > > Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to receiving > > only > > > > nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come back > > to write > > > > the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at > > first. > > > > > > > > He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio- > > syndrome, > > > > he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA > > > > Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu > > Conference co- > > > > sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri Lanka, > > and > > > > held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. > > > > > > > > While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, he > > was > > > > invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad Rijal, to > > sit on > > > > the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, > > > > under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the > > > > Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear Non- > > > > proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the > > United > > > > Nations. > > > > > > > > He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary > > extended > > > > master's degree in the history of religion, comparative religion > > and > > > > theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a respirator > > > > before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and obtain > > his > > > > Degree. > > > > > > > > In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial World > > > > Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he gave a > > West > > > > Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, > > Greek, > > > > Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And > > > > organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs of > > the > > > > Sun" Exhibit. > > > > > > > > He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient > > > > Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist > > connections > > > > at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic > > conference > > > > held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he > > recieved > > > > and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single > > scholar could > > > > challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a > > full-page > > > > article in the News-India Times about this. > > > > > > > > He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such Days > > and > > > > Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to > > hundreds > > > > of thousands listeners. > > > > > > > > But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two week > > West > > > > Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several > > months. But > > > > he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two of his > > > > papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. > > > > > > > > Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it is > > unlikely > > > > that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World Association > > for Vedic > > > > Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, and > > suffers > > > > periodic central vision loss. > > > > > > > > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real > > > > person. > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > > > > > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , > > give this > > > > > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the > > > > identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to > > be > > > > capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. > > Meaning one > > > > must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending > > a > > > > cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since > > > > B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed > > two of > > > > his letters On-line: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 11:34:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:34:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 13911 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:34:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:34:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:34:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 19:34:56 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:34:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Stubbs and Goswami on the "Gebhard Letter" Account Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 892 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.81.68 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Now Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > "SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE > LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON IT, > AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO > CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE > PICTURE UNDETECTED." It has been awhile since I read the story, but as I recall, there was a professional conjurer present who inspected the scene carefully and rendered an opinion that the letter was not deposited by trickery. It is the presence of a trained witness which leads me to suggest that this is a good candidate for evidence pof phenomenal action. One would think such a person would not be easily gulled by simple tricks, being trained as he was in how the tricks were staged. From dhyana@web.de Thu Nov 14 11:47:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 11661 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:21 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAEJlFT29223 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:15 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-151.blinx.de [62.96.222.151]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAEJlDC29202 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:14 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c28c16$a61f1820$97de603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:45:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.151 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >Even 99.99% of the Nazi's during WWII would never want to kill any >Jews, and the 00,01% who did, didn't feel they where "racist" (read >Eichmans Diary's !) they merely wanted to "help humanity !" Eichmann was a Jew for himself, as his name alone shows. Eichmann's "diary" was produced in prison under pressure, not by free will. If YOU would be in prison and forced to write into your diary that HPB was the most outstanding person and the holiest one you ever heard of, no one would take it serious. All the leading authorities in Nazi Germany who managed and worked out the Havaara (emigration) treaty between Germany and the World Jewish Congress were Jews and not Aryans. Gestapo chief Heydrich was also a Jew, his father being a famous opera musician. To cover up this background the lexicon entries were changed in the Third Reich. Take a photograph of Heydrich and look into his face. The Jews for themselves, or to take your picture, the 00,01% of the Jews (and/or Jesuits, depending whether you prefer the higher degrees), who announced 3 World Wars against Germany, didn't feel they were racist, too. 250,000 fleeing women and children died in one night in Dresden, a refuge city for the East Germans from Prussia and Silesia were the Red Army produced a holocaust on millions on women. BTW, in and near Dresden was no military target. Groudn zero for Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Munich and all major cities. After war, after 1945 15 million Germans were expulsed from East Germany, seven millions died on their stampede (it was well known what the Boshevist Commisairs - most of them Jews - did with their own population - including Jews!) - no Boshevist, no Jew, no bomber Harris felt he was a racist. After 1945-48 American terror on the Rhine meadows, were over 1 million German soldiers died. No Roosevelt, no Truman felt as racist. In "peace" after 1945 more Germans died from Bolshevist-Capitalist Allied terror then during the war! The destruction of the Gemran people was the biggest holocaust that has happened so far in historical times, although often concealed! And it was a real one! No documents need to be faked! No false "eye-witness" reports needed! And all for the world-wide oligarchy which believes in the Genesis story and wants to enslave the world and erect a monopoly of all treasures of the soil, declaring war against any nation who wants to take their treasures of the soil for themselves and not handing out to the Chosen people. It was no other then Henry Kissinger who made this Zionist plan of the Protocols the official US government policy since the 1960's! How many million of innocent people died since 1897 in Russia, Siberia, Germany, Asia, Africa, South America, Near East for the unstoppable thirst of the Chosen people? Did they ever felt as racists? Why is the TS mentioned in the Zionist protocols? And why the TS was destroyed from within? By whom? And why? Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Nov 14 11:47:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 36189 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAEJlHb29253 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:17 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-151.blinx.de [62.96.222.151]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAEJlGC29234 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:16 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c28c16$a787a8d0$97de603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Belief in the authority of the "Masters" in the ES today. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:58:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.151 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >From: "brianmuehlbach" >The Mahatma Letters only began to appear after the migration to India >in 1880, so that for five years the Society did not rest upon them in any Really? Never heard of the Mahatma letters to HPB's sister in Odessa, Russia BEFORE 1875? Never heard of the Mahatma letters to Olcott in New York between 1875-78? And what about the KH letter to Besant in 1900? Frank From dhyana@web.de Thu Nov 14 11:47:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 19542 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:47:22 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAEJlGR29238 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:16 +0100 Received: from captain5jkmnop (cppp-151.blinx.de [62.96.222.151]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAEJlFC29219 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:47:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c28c16$a6e74a20$97de603e@captain5jkmnop> To: References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:53:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.151 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal >Australians were meant to naturally die out why are >they still prospering today? One could reply that they Who ever said that "dying out" means a death in the physical world? To clarify what terms like this really mean and to which world they are addressed whould be most interesting for historians, too, because there is an ongoing quarrel with the term ausrotten (extermination), which Hitler liked to use. Did he refer to the physical world or to another world (whether above or below the phyiscal world). Asking this question does not include an apology for anyone or anything. The false interpretation of another ones statements thru the filters of the own mind is termed by psychologists as projection. Frank From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Thu Nov 14 11:49:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 19:49:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 45382 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 19:49:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 19:49:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:49:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 19:49:50 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:49:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: HPB INNOCENT OF EVIL INTENT TOWARD THOSE OF LESS ' EVOLVED' RACES Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6194 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR READERS, HERE IS MY LETTER TO BRIAN REGARDING HPB'S KIND REGARD TOWARD LESS ADVANCED RACES, AND MY 'BENEVOLENT' RACIST RELATIVES' SIMILAR PATRONIZING ATTITUDE TOWARDS THEIR SLAVES. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: HPB DEFENDS ABORIGENES THIS IS THE ARTICLE THAT I SENT TO BRIAN, IN WHICH HPB STRONGLY DEFENDS THE LESS ADVANCED RACES AGAINST ANY ABUSE OR CRUELTY. Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: THE MOTE AND THE BEAM Article by H. P. Blavatsky Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. . . . Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? --MATTHEW VII OH the virtuous indignation, the roaring tempest raised in the tender souls of American and British philanthropists at the rumor that Russian authorities in Siberia are not as tender as they should be towards their political prisoners! What a hullabaloo of loud protests of "indignation meetings," of gigantic gatherings to denounce their neighbors, while they keep prudently silent about the same misdeeds at home. A monster meeting of some 250,000 men protested the other day at Hyde Park "in the name of civilization and humanity" against the brutal behavior of some unknown Russian officials and jailors. Now, one can readily understand and entirely appreciate the feelings of the masses, of the oppressed, the suffering poor and the hoi polloi in general. These being "sat upon" from birth to death by the high and the wealthy of their own land, and having all, to a man, many a sore place in their ..... ************ EDITED, MY COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE IS BELOW Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:08 AM Subject: Re: HPB DEFENDS ABORIGENES, BUT IS STILL A RACIST DEAR BRIAN, I SEE SEVERAL THINGS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF HER RACISM IN THIS LETTER. 1. HPB WAS INDIGNANT THAT PEOPLE WERE CRITICIZING RUSSIA. 2. SHE WANTED TO POINT OUT THE BRUTAL RACISM AND GENOCIDE OF THE ENGLISH. 3. SHE WANTED TO POINT OUT THE INCREDIBLE BRUTALITY OF THE ENGLISH TOWARDS WOMEN. 4. SHE WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIANITY' OF THIS BRUTAL ENGLISH CHARACTER (SHE HATED CHRISTIANITY). 5, SHE CONSIDERED THE CRUEL, OPPRESSIVE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' ENGLISH LESS NOBLE OF CHARACTER THAN THE HARD WORKING LESS-EVOLVED OTHER RACES. NO WHERE IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE IN THIS LETTER THAT SHE WASN'T A RACIST. A RACIST DOES NOT NECESSARILY WANT TO MURDER OR TORTURE PEOPLE THAT THEY CONSIDER RACIALLY INFERIOR. I HAVE ANCESTORS WHO WERE SLAVE OWNERS ON A CARIBBEAN ISLAND. THEY WERE 'GOOD PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS' WHO TREATED THEIR SLAVES WELL BY LOCAL STANDARDS. WERE THEY RACISTS ? OF COURSE. DID THEY THINK THEIR SLAVES SOMEHOW INFERIOR AND THUS 'NEEDING' TO BE ENSLAVED ? PROBABLY. DID THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS RATIONALE FOR THEIR ENSLAVEMENT OF BLACKS ? THEY MUST HAVE. DID THEY FEEL THAT RATIONALE WAS SUPPORTED BY SCIENCE ? NO DOUBT. WHEN A PLOT WAS DEVISED FOR THE SLAVES TO RISE UP AND MASSACRE THE ISLAND'S WHITE POPULATION, MY ANCESTOR'S SLAVES WARNED THEM AND HELPED THEM TO ESCAPE FROM THE ISLAND BEFORE THE BLOOD-BATH. THUS THEY SHOWED THEIR APPRECIATION FOR THE RELATIVELY KIND TREATMENT MY ANCESTORS HAD GIVEN THEM, BY SAVING THEIR LIVES. STILL MY ANCESTORS OWNED AND WORKED OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS THOUGH THEY WERE POSSESSIONS OR DRAFT ANIMALS. BENEVOLENT CHATTEL SLAVERY IS STILL CHATTEL SLAVERY, A MONSTROUS EVIL. IS THERE ANY SUCH THING AS A 'GOOD' RACIST ? WHAT DID HPB IMAGINE TO BE THE PROPER PLACE OF BLACKS IN HER THEOSOPHICAL WORLD ORDER ? BY EVEN SUGGESTING THAT THE INFERIOR RACES NEEDED TO DIE OUT, FOR A NEW HIGHER WORLD ORDER TO EMERGE, SHE WAS SETTING THE STAGE FOR THEIR OPPRESSION AND GENOCIDE. JUST BECAUSE HPB WAS APPALLED AT THE CRUELTY SHOWN BLACKS DOES NOT MEAN SHE WASN'T A RACIST. SHE CLEARLY CONSIDERED OTHER RACES INFERIOR TO HER IMAGINED 'ARYANS', WITH THE NEGROES AND VEDDA OR AUSTRALOIDS ON THE LOWEST RUNG OF HER IMAGINED EVOLUTIONARY LADDER. THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN SHE WANTED TO SEE THEM TORTURED OR EXTERMINATED. AFTER ALL, WHY SHOULD SHE NOT FEEL COMPASSION FOR 'NOBLE SAVAGES' AND MORE PRIMITIVE HUMANS, OR EVEN SUB-HUMANS BEING TORTURED AND EXTERMINATED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE EMPIRE OF THE BRITISH CROWN ? SHE WAS THE AUTHOR OF A PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS, RACIST THOUGHT SYSTEM, WHICH HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY RACISTS WORLD-WIDE, AND HAS CAUSED AND IS CAUSING UNTOLD HUMAN SUFFERING. THIS LETTER MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN THAT FACT. MOST PEOPLE DON'T LIKE SEEING CRUELTY TO BEASTS OF BURDEN EITHER. HOWEVER, THEY DON'T CONSIDER THEIR BEASTS OF BURDEN TO BE HUMANS OR TO HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT RIGHTS LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. EXPRESSION OF COMPASSION FOR BLACKS AND RED INDIANS, DOES NOT MEAN THAT HPB THOUGHT OF THEM AS BEINGS ON A PAR WITH RACIAL 'ARYANS', OR EVEN BELIEVED IN THE FULL EMANCIPATION OF BLACKS FOR THAT MATTER. I KNOW IT SEEMS CONTRADICTORY TO SPEAK OF GOOD AND BAD RACISTS.....ALL RACISM IS EVIL, BUT NOT ALL RACISTS ARE EQUALLY AS BAD. HPB'S SENSE OF RACIAL SUPERIORITY DID NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN SHE WAS A HEARTLESS PERSON, OR APPROVED OF GENOCIDE AGAINST THE 'LOWER' RACES. I THINK THAT SHE WOULD HAVE RECOILED IN HORROR TO SEE THE EXPRESSION OF ARYANIST RACISM AND ANTI SEMITISM AS IT MANIFEST IN THE THIRD REICH. UNFORTUNATELY A PERSON CANNOT TAKE-BACK THE EVILS THAT THEY HAVE UNLEASHED IN THE WORLD. IN HER PROUD ARROGANCE AND DECEITFULNESS, SHE UNLEASHED A GREAT EVIL INTO THE WORLD, AND SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACT. IN FAIRNESS HOWEVER, WE MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO ASCRIBE ATTITUDES AND CRIMES TO HER, FOR WHICH SHE WAS NOT GUILTY. ***** SHE WAS ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANTING A SEED THAT BECAME A TREE BEARING POISONOUS FRUIT. I AM SURE THAT SHE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE IT, IF SHE COULD HAVE SEEN THE RESULT. I ASCRIBE NO ILL MOTIVE TO HER, AND AM SURE THAT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS PLAYING SOME SALVIFIC ROLE IN THE HUMAN ADVENTURE. AS WITH MANY BRILLIANT PEOPLE, SHE WAS ARROGANT AND PROUD OF HER CONSIDERABLE GIFTS AND PERSONAL POWER. PAX, DAVID From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 12:11:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:11:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 44888 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:11:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:11:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:11:31 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CQKo-0003UR-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:11:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD40384.6AE3966C@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:11:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Brigitte Muehlegger comments in her well-known style: > > "People like Dallas the Broek (Dalval) or Daniel Caldwell do is > shower people with outdated Theosophical propaganda material. It is > like with Jehovas Witnesses (have you ever seen someone try to get > you to 'look' at The Watchtower ?), well they know that once reading > the stuff many people often do join." Actually, I happen to read both Watchtower and Awake! magazines on a regular basis. In matters of fact, they tend to be well researched, and the writing is quite clear. In order to get value out of it, you must be able to discern their point of view, and read with proper discrimination. Similarly, when I read the 19th century material, I apply discrimination for the language and points of view of the time, in order to extract that which is of value. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 12:19:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:19:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 66036 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:19:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:19:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:19:39 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 55F08262EE6 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:19:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005501c28c1a$6f02fba0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:14:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bakthi and all of you, Thanks for your answer. I hold that Personal Testimonies from young people are what they really are - ONLY ROMOURS at best ! Children today are no all of them saints. They do make up lies. Let us stick to facts ! Are your facts MORE straight now ? Blind beliefs lead nowhere even if they are - or seem convenient ! But I think Romours about smear campaigns have to be taken up to what we could call "consideration" - just like romours concerning the so-called avatar by the name Sathya Sai Baba --- or romours concerning the theosophist H. P. Blavatsky. I agree very much on, that the issue RACISM deserves much more constructive attention from the Theosophical organizations of today !!! from M. Sufilight with facts...and NO blind beliefs... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > I DONT THINK THAT THE PERSONAL TESTIMONIES OF MANY MOLESTED YOUTHS > ARE RUMORS. > > I WOULD NOT HAVE REPEATED MERE RUMORS. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi all of you, > > > > Thanks "Bhakti" for your eehm sort of 'kind' answer. > > > > Try this friendly meant joke and remark: > > You know - I have some days back heard from a friend of mine, that > a guy > > called something like > > B. A. Goswamilk > > are romoured to spend his time - running smear-campaigns at other > people and > > organizations. > > Lately his has shifted from NOT ONLY campaigning against Theosophy > to also > > include a so-called Avatar by the name Sathya Sai Baba in his > campaigning. > > It is romoured, that his smear campaigns are so wild, that he > creates quite > > a crowd coming forward testifying - that his smear campaigns are > the wildest > > they have ever seeen for the last 20 years or so. > > His smear campaigns have earned him a lot of "credentials" which > shows > > everyone his capeabilities. > > And all those without "credentials" most be quite stupid to think, > that it > > is not important to have such "credentials". Even the > spiritual "policemen" > > are amased. > > > > I have to state, that romours are not a proof !!! > > > > > > I have to state the facts: > > I am REALLY - PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH a smear CHARLATAN AND > smear > > MOLESTER. > > > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with a lot of friendly HEALING...and some small sufis > with true > > Miracles... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:23 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > > > > GREETINGS, > > > > > > I HAVE NOT MET HIM, BUT HAVE KNOWN SOME OF HIS DISCIPLES YEARS > AGO. > > > ONE YOUNG MAN TOLD ME OF BEING SEXUALLY FONDLED BY HIM > > > FOR 'HEALING'. NOW APPARENTLY NUMEROUS PRESENT YOUTHS AND FORMER > > > MOLESTED YOUTHS HAVE COME FORWARD TELLING OF YEARS PEDOPHILIA > > > COMMITTED BY HIM....CONFIRMING EXACTLY WHAT THE YOUNG MAN TOLD > ME. I > > > HAVE ALSO BEEN TOLD BY HIS DISCIOPLES THAT THEY HAVE WITNESSED HIS > > > SLIGHT-OF-HAND 'MIRACLES'. AT THE WORLD HINDU CONFERENCE AND > OTHER > > > OCCASIONS OF CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH HINDU 'MIRACLE' WORKERS, I WAS > > > OFTEN ABLE TO DETECT THEIR TRICKERY. MOST OF IT WORKS BECAUSE OF > > > THEIR SUCCESSFUL ABILITY TO DISTRACT THEIR VIEWERS FROM THE REAL > > > CAUSE OF THE 'MIRACLE'. > > > > > > SPEAKING OF 'MIRACLES', ABOUT A PREVIOUS POST HERE CONCERNING THE > > > LETTER BEHIND THE PICTURE...IF IT HAD A CLOTH OR PAPER BACKING ON > IT, > > > AS MANY FRAMED PICTURES DO, A RAZOR SLICE COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO > > > CONSEAL THE LETTER, BY SLIPPING IT INSIDE OF THE FRAME, BEHIND THE > > > PICTURE UNDETECTED. > > > > > > PRAYING FOR THE VICTIMS OF SUCH CHARLATANS AND MOLESTERS, > > > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > Hi Brain and all of you, > > > > > > > > As "credentials" seems to have importance to you I have a > question > > > to ask a > > > > question - although it is a little offline. > > > > > > > > What "credentials" do you (Brian) think the so-called Avatar > guru > > > Sathya Sai > > > > Baba from Puttaparthi India has ? > > > > Has his life only been a fake since he left school 14 years > old ? > > > > Have you ever meet the guy ? > > > > Has anyone on this list ? And what are their comments ? > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > M. Sufilight with great fun... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "brianmuehlbach" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:46 PM > > > > Subject: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can > THINK. > > > > > > > > > > Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list > > > although (in > > > > spite > > > > > of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings > to > > > him, > > > > > Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" > is: "talking > > > to Leon > > > > > Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > > > > > > > > > Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > > > > > > > > > > As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, > made > > > an > > > > > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I > looked > > > them up , > > > > > see below. > > > > > > > > > > Reading it reminds me , after he left this list due to > receiving > > > only > > > > > nitpikkers post , I really should write him and ask to come > back > > > to write > > > > > the "Mahatma Letter" commentary he mentioned he might write at > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > He lives in India, an before becoming disabled by post-polio- > > > syndrome, > > > > > he lectured in the USA and overseas. He was the Mainland USA > > > > > Delegate to the 1982 academic and religious World Hindu > > > Conference co- > > > > > sponsored by the Governments of Tamil Nadu India and Sri > Lanka, > > > and > > > > > held at the Summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Sri Lanka. > > > > > > > > > > While still on his college-contracted independent study tour, > he > > > was > > > > > invited by the Prime Minister of Nepal Nagendra Prasad > Rijal, to > > > sit on > > > > > the Executive Committee of the World Hindu Organization, > > > > > under the Patronage of King Birendra. And he worked on the > > > > > Organization's Nepal International Zone of Peace and Nuclear > Non- > > > > > proliferation Non Governmental Organization platforms for the > > > United > > > > > Nations. > > > > > > > > > > He completed the oral presentation of his interdisciplinary > > > extended > > > > > master's degree in the history of religion, comparative > religion > > > and > > > > > theology in the USA. However, he was hospitalized on a > respirator > > > > > before he could complete the publication of his Thesis and > obtain > > > his > > > > > Degree. > > > > > > > > > > In 1993, he was a Sponsor and Presenter at the Centennial > World > > > > > Parliament of Religions in Chicago, USA. And in 2000, he > gave a > > > West > > > > > Coast L.A. County Museum Tour and Lecture series on Egyptian, > > > Greek, > > > > > Jewish and Vaishnava connections in the pre-Christian Era. And > > > > > organized an exhibit tour at the L.A. County Museum "Pharaohs > of > > > the > > > > > Sun" Exhibit. > > > > > > > > > > He was invited to present two papers on the subject of ancient > > > > > Vaishnava and Afro-Helleno-Semitic, Shaivite and Buddhist > > > connections > > > > > at the major World Association for Vedic Studies academic > > > conference > > > > > held at the Stevens Institute of Technology in late 2000, he > > > recieved > > > > > and actual ovation after his presentation, and not a single > > > scholar could > > > > > challenge either his evidence or his conclusions. There was a > > > full-page > > > > > article in the News-India Times about this. > > > > > > > > > > He gave up to a half-hour long, RBC Radio in India on such > Days > > > and > > > > > Festivals as Maha Kumba Mela, Durga Puja, and Gita Jayanti to > > > hundreds > > > > > of thousands listeners. > > > > > > > > > > But due to polio muscle exhaustion, after his demanding two > week > > > West > > > > > Coast Tour, he lost his ability to produce a voice for several > > > months. But > > > > > he next do an East Coast tour that began by presenting two > of his > > > > > papers at the WAVES conference, followed by a two weeks tour. > > > > > > > > > > Last week his personal assistant (his daughter) wrote that it > is > > > unlikely > > > > > that he will be able to attend the upcoming , World > Association > > > for Vedic > > > > > Studies, he is currently also not able to do radio programs, > and > > > suffers > > > > > periodic central vision loss. > > > > > > > > > > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a > real > > > > > person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in > > > > > > >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , > > > give this > > > > > > obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his > the > > > > > identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed > not to > > > be > > > > > capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. > > > Meaning one > > > > > must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is > defending > > > a > > > > > cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case > since > > > > > B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed > > > two of > > > > > his letters On-line: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 12:20:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:20:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 52366 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:20:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:20:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:20:09 -0000 Received: from pool0060.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.60] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CQT9-0001Az-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:20:08 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:16:34 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <112.1a5b5fa5.2b04dcdf@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Many thanks Leon. Very helpful. I have read and studied your excellent di= agram. Dal -----Original Message----- From: leonmaurer@aol.com [mailto:leonmaurer@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:03 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Theosophical Fundamentalism Dallas, Thank you for your =08carefully considered response to my question concerni= ng the word "Synthesis" -- as used by HPB in the subtitle of the SD. I agree with your correlation's of the fundamental triune monad with all its secondary six fold derivatives, based on its =08equally fundamental interna= l duality=08 -- as pictured symbolically in my diagrams of the initial univer= sal fie=08=08=08ld involution. See: From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 12:20:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:20:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 82096 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:20:10 -0000 Received: from pool0060.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.60] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CQTB-0001Az-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:20:09 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: RE:: A Precipitation Primer Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:16:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Steve, Read the monograph again. Not "brush strokes" Dal -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:10 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: RE:: A Precipitation Primer Dallas: "Examination of some letters at high magnification clearly shows that what appears to the unaided eye as a continuous line ... is in fact a close series of very fine lines each separated from the other by a white space. ... Needless to say that at the time of such precipitation (in the period between 1880 and 1885) no technology existed in the West that could produce such an effect. Not true. This just means the letters were painted on using a brush and not written with a pen. CUT From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 12:35:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:35:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 46150 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:35:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:35:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:35:05 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CQhc-0005bx-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:35:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:35:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Mix freely ? > Well, what about the black guys in jail, which clearly outnumber the WHITE > ones ? Give me a true statement, and I'll discuss it. While blacks are represented disproportionately in jails, they are still very much the minority of the prison population. And only a small minority of blacks are in prison. Most are good, law abiding people. > What about the Afghan "muslims" at Cuba ??? Well, I will admit the United States is a bit bigoted against people who murder our citizens. I guess your country loves people who murder ITS citizens. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 12:48:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 20:48:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 76939 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 20:48:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 20:48:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:48:20 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C88826296E for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:48:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001801c28c1e$704d0b00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB INNOCENT OF EVIL INTENT TOWARD THOSE OF LESS ' EVOLVED' RACES Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:43:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bakthi and all of you, I have to say, that was an interesting email. I have the following article of my own for you to read. In the article one could imagine Blavatsky as being one of the teachers of wisdom, who dies, (deliberately). But who is the 'second' teacher then ? (Hitler? or Annie Besant? or who?) Maybe it will help you on the issue of RACISM, and Blavatskys role as a teacher of Wisdom. What do you think about this and the article ? Here it is: *Theosophy - and Wisdom Organisations and Their Mode of Operation * *** Written in private by Morten Sufilight *** Theosophical Designs and The Mode of Operation (Chapter 1) I will start with the ordinary term called - Spiritual Development - or the spiritual Seekers journey on the Path of initiation. The spiritual Seeker has at the beginning of the journey and somewhat further - often the view, that Spiritual Development is a journey or a series of journeys, which lead to perfection. - There is a Path and a Spiritual Guide. That which often confuses the spiritual seeker, is, whether it is literally a journey or a metaphorical journey. The truth is both matters are of importance. The spiritual Seeker often has to take long and exhausting journeys towards perfection. There is both an inner and an outer journey to go through. The one relates to the body. The other to the mental or the consciousness. Thereafter the Spiritual Guide comes in to question. A personality, which isn't to be worshipped blindly, because that is exactly NOT the idea with having a spiritual guide; or teacher. Such a teacher comes, teaches and guides a group of people at a certain place and at a more or less fixed period of time. The teacher offers herself or himself by he's or hers presence. Those who are interested have to offer themselves as students. The actual step - to become a student is difficult to make, even so if the student believes that he or she really want to learn, - because the student has to fight with different kinds of psychological emotional or mental blockages - especially fear, doubt, uncertainty, and ignorance. Said with psychological ulterior motive - the student wants to learn, but doesn't want to give. If the student doesn't want to give the teacher his or hers attention, then the student won't be able to learn. The more down to earth person's minds are these days - in many ways today very unstable and capricious. He or she maybe one day want to dabble into Spiritual Development (for instance a version of Raja-yoga) and esoterical teachings, - and then the next day - going out with friends getting stoned in alcohol - is highest on the agenda. And then after a couple of weeks Spiritual development is an important again - at least a little. And most people in these days have a good deal of build in opposition, which has to be overcome - before the step can be taken wholly and totally. It may be that the Seeker has some background of self-development. Sometimes this can be a drawback, because it can make him or her think that he/she knows more than he/she does. This is showing his/hers lack of humility, and lack of recognition of how much one really doesn't know anything about. In the teachers (here a male) effort to give all he can to the disciple, the teacher must reveal himself and his teaching little by little. If he where to give his full concentration at too early a stage, the disciple would not be able to absorb the teachings. Different aspects of the teacher are seen at different times. Some people even think that they see actual faults in the teacher. These strangely enough, are generally reflections of the faults of the student, which are coming to the surface. It is in order to place the disciple in a condition in which she/he can become accessible to the understanding of truth, by an inner sense, that the teacher takes on the burden of the student. He may have to ask for the sacrifice of things, which the student prizes the most. This often from good reasons, which will be explained, when time is right. When deprived of the teacher, the student will often be guided by his/hers own lower personality ("the commanding self"). A student at such a stage may attach to any centre or organisation of attraction, which offers Spiritual Development, and which the student finds exciting and interesting etc. This is because the student is at a stage where Spiritual Organisations has value - or that which the student thinks is Spiritual organisations, - but the student hasn't yet developed his/hers sense of discrimination. This situation may make the half-mature disciple proud, and she/he may set himself/herself up as a teacher, especially if the teacher has given him/her some authority. This sort of development is responsible for the fragmentation of true teachings, and their absorption by pseudo-Theosophical organisations, certain New Age Organisations or the like. A sign of a deteriorated system is when the members seek only mystical experience, "openings" or illumination without realising that this, if true, will have a certain effect upon them. That is, Spiritual Development without opening the heart-centre or the centre for compassion in a proper manner is bad, and should be avoided. The same goes for Meditation. Meditation gives some sort of calmness. But it is a preparatory step, and gives calmness only as a 'signpost'. When the calmness has been attained some people become addicted to it, and their progress is frozen at that point. They have become meditation-addicts. This is like the fat man (or woman), who must eat sugar because he has developed a craving for it. Sugar is a means to an end, not an end. For him it has become an end. Sugar is food and fuel. For this man it is a shackle on his progress, making him heavier and heavier. The same is true of some of the modern techniques or imitation cults - like uncontrolled spiritual dancing or certain forms of psychotherapy - for instance people seeking their inner 'release-scream' or where one 'blow of steam' etc. People who take these things up have forgotten, what spiritual development really is - i.e. Theosophy (wisdom of the gods, or wisdom of God), to produce the perfect being - the God of wisdom within. They are therefore only dabbling. They use their experiences to convince themselves that they are progressing. Conviction is not a fact. But, these imitation cults mentioned above could in certain few cases lead some people to spiritual heights - but they themselves are only beginner manoeuvres. One often has to learn, what Spiritual Development really is first. Some throws them selves into the first and best they can lay their eyes on. Others are thinking more carefully and deeply, and find the right method, or what is the right method for them. This happens best in groups in this age of information and communication - where a new paradigm is shinning more and more bright in the horizon. But also some times alone. Being alone or not is a matter of balance. But also very often - the place, the organisation and the method one as a newcomer or lesser experienced Seeker wants or thinks is the best for oneself and perhaps even others - is really not so. They - the newcomers - have a tendency - because of a still remaining egoistic fragment in their character - to join those organisations, follow those methods, which they them selves feel comfortable about - and that with rather egoistical motives, whether they are conscious of it or not. A major reason is often that, - what - one really needs to learn - one really doesn't know much about. Only the initiate of the higher level knows - really knows. These newcomers are often not aware of, that there are many paths within the teachings of Theosophy. (See "The Secret Doctrine", II, p.191, on the paths). In the following it could be of interest to keep the history of Theosophy or the Wisdom Tradition in mind. One can read about the Theosophical history or the history of the Wisdom Tradition somewhere on the Internet - by searching. Let us revert to the Spiritual journey. From time to time suitable teachers of the Wisdom Tradition has been sent by their Masters or guides to travel to a certain place and establish the teaching. Such teachers have an influence on various levels. Those above mentioned Spiritual teachers work has not only been to give people Spiritual guidance and education. It has also been to prepare the ground for further development of the living progress of the Path of Wisdom. There are also minor emissaries who are sent out to teach and prepare the ground for further development. These people has been known to set themselves up as ultimate authorities, because part of their training is to test their loyalty to the whole School of Wisdom, which is as generally known consisting of one entity. But, if, a teacher of the Wisdom tradition dies, or there is a gap in the teaching, what then? The interesting thing is, that the very gap is a part of the training. You may explain certain things to a child : shall we say teach her or him not to do certain things. Then you will pretend to go out of the house - and observe her or him. According to how well he/she has learned, so will he/she react. In this 'absence exercise', precisely the same thing happens to the teacher of Wisdom, though many are not conscious of it. After the disappearance from the field of a teacher of Wisdom, the followers will divide themselves into groups, in accordance with their strength and weaknesses. Some will assume control of others. They may be good or bad, and this will be shown by their reaction to - the second teacher - when he/she arrives. If they realise he/she is their teacher, then they have merely been developing themselves and can mature. But if they have become atrophied, they will be too blind to recognize the Spirituality of the very teacher, for which appearance they have been prepared. They may attach themselves, in default, to a different group. (And this groups existence is maybe no coincidence.) Again well and good : providing they return to the mainstream of teaching when it is offered to them again. This is the test of whether they have overcome the lower self. They will realise, if they are sufficiently developed, that the person who appears to be 'second' teacher is in reality - the first in importance. Life is reversed for the undeveloped man (the newcomer), and he/she will behave in accordance with this. The first teacher does not make life easier, in most cases, for the generality of disciples. He/She will teach them things, which are only of use when the second teacher arrives and reality falls into place. The object of this is twofold. In the first place, certain valuable thoughts have been given to the disciples. In the second, they are tested by the means of these ideas. Just as our western psychologists give odd-shaped pieces of wood to people, to see how they put them together, teachers of Wisdom will give odd-pieces of material of - mental kind - to his/her followers. - If they try to fit these together however, and to make a pattern in his/hers - absences, - they are becoming 'fossilised'. Because, the Wisdom tradition has to show that the object of mankind is not to construct idols, but to follow a supreme pattern, which is learnt piece by piece. Quite obviously the semi-blind among the people, during their 'waiting-period', will try to work out their own interpretation. They may, as have been done in the past, write books to explain what they have learned. This is the danger-point, because when a man/woman is accepted as, say, a philosopher (of wisdom) because she/he has written a book explaining a philosophy, he/she will not readily accept, that she/he only have been 'fumbling'. He/She has quite possibly become a prisoner of his/hers lower self. The self-conceit of the man/woman is now bound up with his/hers 'creation', the book or the method, which he/she has used to organise the fragments, which he/she has. He/she is probably or possibly lost - for the cause. In order to break through this shell of accretions and fossilisations, the - second teacher - will tend to act in a different, perhaps in a certain dramatically different manner, from the original one. This could happen, to break the 'idols', which have been formed out of the thoughts, which were originally given. So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about. When a system of teaching of wisdom is in a period of fallowness, because the one who propagated it is dead, then there comes a period of stagnation. This period can last between 10 years, 15 years or more. In the time, which passes, the group of people who is affected by the system are sieved by natural means. Some wander away. Others carry on automatically not really knowing, what they are doing. They are now 'frozen', though they do not know they are. The blind may try to lead the blinder. This takes the form of assumption of authority by those who were given some sort of authority in the original mandate. These are the people in the most dangerous position, because the longer they remain 'orphaned' the more strongly their lower self (or the three lower bodies) asserts it self. Others may modify the teachings in a learned and personal way. Some certainly fall a prey to cults, which have come into being in order to serve them. The people who joins these are at great pains to explain why they consider, that they represent the same kind of teaching - and this is important. It is important, because it shows the Theosophist or the real spiritually minded, very clearly, that the people who try to explain - are in fact troubled by conscience. Somewhere inside them, they know, that they are identifying themselves with an imitation, or a second-best. But they are supported by their lower bodies or lower personality, - and this is too strong for them. Those can be helped by being lead to think in new thinking-patterns and systems. It is via the conscience, that one finds the path forward, - thereby will be able to remove the limitations of the lower personality. Imagine a group of people shipwrecked. They think there is no hope of rescue. They find a raft, and are glad. After a time more people come along in a big boat. But the first people will not leave the raft, because they have become used to it. They may have convinced themselves, that it is actually a boat. (So it is to some philosophical or religious people today.) The points at which the mystical traditions, which are still alive, are in contact with each other cannot really be explained by the means of books. And yet people continue to write books showing how they have found this and that point of resemblance. The truth can only be found by actual experience, - and easier by awareness on such aspect as I have touch upon. To sink ecstasy in Wisdom is better than to sink Wisdom in ecstasy. The Wisdom Tradition teaches by several different systems, and not only by one, - one book or teen books, BUT also by thousands and thousands of books - and the dogmatic ones doesn't want to listen. from M. Sufilight with his sufi friends...and a big grin... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: Theos-World HPB INNOCENT OF EVIL INTENT TOWARD THOSE OF LESS ' EVOLVED' RACES > DEAR READERS, > > HERE IS MY LETTER TO BRIAN REGARDING HPB'S KIND REGARD TOWARD LESS > ADVANCED RACES, AND MY 'BENEVOLENT' RACIST RELATIVES' SIMILAR > PATRONIZING ATTITUDE TOWARDS THEIR SLAVES. > > ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: HPB DEFENDS ABORIGENES > > > THIS IS THE ARTICLE THAT I SENT TO BRIAN, IN WHICH HPB STRONGLY > DEFENDS THE LESS ADVANCED RACES AGAINST ANY ABUSE OR CRUELTY. > > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > > THE MOTE AND THE BEAM > Article by H. P. Blavatsky > Ye blind guides, which strain > at a gnat and swallow a camel. . . . > Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, > But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? > --MATTHEW VII > > OH the virtuous indignation, the roaring tempest raised in the tender > souls of American and British philanthropists at the rumor that > Russian authorities in Siberia are not as tender as they should be > towards their political prisoners! What a hullabaloo of loud protests > of "indignation meetings," of gigantic gatherings to denounce their > neighbors, while they keep prudently silent about the same misdeeds > at home. > A monster meeting of some 250,000 men protested the other day at Hyde > Park "in the name of civilization and humanity" against the brutal > behavior of some unknown Russian officials and jailors. Now, one can > readily understand and entirely appreciate the feelings of the > masses, of the oppressed, the suffering poor and the hoi polloi in > general. These being "sat upon" from birth to death by the high and > the wealthy of their own land, and having all, to a man, many a sore > place in their ..... > > ************ > > EDITED, MY COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE IS BELOW > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:08 AM > Subject: Re: HPB DEFENDS ABORIGENES, BUT IS STILL A RACIST > > > DEAR BRIAN, > > I SEE SEVERAL THINGS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF HER RACISM IN THIS > LETTER. > > 1. HPB WAS INDIGNANT THAT PEOPLE WERE CRITICIZING RUSSIA. > > 2. SHE WANTED TO POINT OUT THE BRUTAL RACISM AND GENOCIDE OF THE > ENGLISH. > > 3. SHE WANTED TO POINT OUT THE INCREDIBLE BRUTALITY OF THE ENGLISH > TOWARDS WOMEN. > > 4. SHE WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIANITY' OF THIS > BRUTAL ENGLISH CHARACTER (SHE HATED CHRISTIANITY). > > 5, SHE CONSIDERED THE CRUEL, OPPRESSIVE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' ENGLISH > LESS NOBLE OF CHARACTER THAN THE HARD WORKING LESS-EVOLVED OTHER > RACES. > > NO WHERE IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE IN THIS LETTER THAT SHE WASN'T A > RACIST. A RACIST DOES NOT NECESSARILY WANT TO MURDER OR TORTURE > PEOPLE THAT THEY CONSIDER RACIALLY INFERIOR. I HAVE ANCESTORS WHO > WERE SLAVE OWNERS ON A CARIBBEAN ISLAND. THEY WERE 'GOOD PROTESTANT > CHRISTIANS' WHO TREATED THEIR SLAVES WELL BY LOCAL STANDARDS. WERE > THEY RACISTS ? OF COURSE. DID THEY THINK THEIR SLAVES SOMEHOW > INFERIOR AND THUS 'NEEDING' TO BE ENSLAVED ? PROBABLY. DID THEY > HAVE SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS RATIONALE FOR THEIR ENSLAVEMENT OF > BLACKS ? THEY MUST HAVE. DID THEY FEEL THAT RATIONALE WAS > SUPPORTED BY SCIENCE ? NO DOUBT. > > WHEN A PLOT WAS DEVISED FOR THE SLAVES TO RISE UP AND MASSACRE THE > ISLAND'S WHITE POPULATION, MY ANCESTOR'S SLAVES WARNED THEM AND > HELPED THEM TO ESCAPE FROM THE ISLAND BEFORE THE BLOOD-BATH. THUS > THEY SHOWED THEIR APPRECIATION FOR THE RELATIVELY KIND TREATMENT MY > ANCESTORS HAD GIVEN THEM, BY SAVING THEIR LIVES. STILL MY ANCESTORS > OWNED AND WORKED OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS THOUGH THEY WERE POSSESSIONS > OR DRAFT ANIMALS. BENEVOLENT CHATTEL SLAVERY IS STILL CHATTEL > SLAVERY, A MONSTROUS EVIL. IS THERE ANY SUCH THING AS A 'GOOD' > RACIST ? WHAT DID HPB IMAGINE TO BE THE PROPER PLACE OF BLACKS IN > HER THEOSOPHICAL WORLD ORDER ? BY EVEN SUGGESTING THAT THE INFERIOR > RACES NEEDED TO DIE OUT, FOR A NEW HIGHER WORLD ORDER TO EMERGE, SHE > WAS SETTING THE STAGE FOR THEIR OPPRESSION AND GENOCIDE. > > JUST BECAUSE HPB WAS APPALLED AT THE CRUELTY SHOWN BLACKS DOES NOT > MEAN SHE WASN'T A RACIST. SHE CLEARLY CONSIDERED OTHER RACES > INFERIOR TO HER IMAGINED 'ARYANS', WITH THE NEGROES AND VEDDA OR > AUSTRALOIDS ON THE LOWEST RUNG OF HER IMAGINED EVOLUTIONARY LADDER. > THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN SHE WANTED TO SEE THEM TORTURED OR > EXTERMINATED. AFTER ALL, WHY SHOULD SHE NOT FEEL COMPASSION > FOR 'NOBLE SAVAGES' AND MORE PRIMITIVE HUMANS, OR EVEN SUB-HUMANS > BEING TORTURED AND EXTERMINATED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE > EMPIRE OF THE BRITISH CROWN ? > > SHE WAS THE AUTHOR OF A PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS, RACIST THOUGHT SYSTEM, > WHICH HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY RACISTS WORLD-WIDE, AND HAS CAUSED AND IS > CAUSING UNTOLD HUMAN SUFFERING. THIS LETTER MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN > THAT FACT. MOST PEOPLE DON'T LIKE SEEING CRUELTY TO BEASTS OF > BURDEN EITHER. HOWEVER, THEY DON'T CONSIDER THEIR BEASTS OF BURDEN > TO BE HUMANS OR TO HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT RIGHTS LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. > EXPRESSION OF COMPASSION FOR BLACKS AND RED INDIANS, DOES NOT MEAN > THAT HPB THOUGHT OF THEM AS BEINGS ON A PAR WITH RACIAL 'ARYANS', OR > EVEN BELIEVED IN THE FULL EMANCIPATION OF BLACKS FOR THAT MATTER. I > KNOW IT SEEMS CONTRADICTORY TO SPEAK OF GOOD AND BAD RACISTS.....ALL > RACISM IS EVIL, BUT NOT ALL RACISTS ARE EQUALLY AS BAD. HPB'S SENSE > OF RACIAL SUPERIORITY DID NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN SHE WAS A HEARTLESS > PERSON, OR APPROVED OF GENOCIDE AGAINST THE 'LOWER' RACES. I THINK > THAT SHE WOULD HAVE RECOILED IN HORROR TO SEE THE EXPRESSION OF > ARYANIST RACISM AND ANTI SEMITISM AS IT MANIFEST IN THE THIRD REICH. > UNFORTUNATELY A PERSON CANNOT TAKE-BACK THE EVILS THAT THEY HAVE > UNLEASHED IN THE WORLD. IN HER PROUD ARROGANCE AND DECEITFULNESS, > SHE UNLEASHED A GREAT EVIL INTO THE WORLD, AND SHOULD BE HELD > ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACT. IN FAIRNESS HOWEVER, WE MUST BE CAREFUL > NOT TO ASCRIBE ATTITUDES AND CRIMES TO HER, FOR WHICH SHE WAS NOT > GUILTY. > > > ***** > > SHE WAS ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANTING A SEED THAT BECAME A TREE > BEARING POISONOUS FRUIT. I AM SURE THAT SHE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE > IT, IF SHE COULD HAVE SEEN THE RESULT. I ASCRIBE NO ILL MOTIVE TO > HER, AND AM SURE THAT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS PLAYING SOME SALVIFIC ROLE > IN THE HUMAN ADVENTURE. > > AS WITH MANY BRILLIANT PEOPLE, SHE WAS ARROGANT AND PROUD OF HER > CONSIDERABLE GIFTS AND PERSONAL POWER. > > > PAX, DAVID > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 13:57:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 21:57:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 86902 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 21:57:35 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 644212636F8 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:57:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:52:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all of you, Allright, allright then - lets assume then that the black guys in jail are white ! <:-) Then I ask why is it so ? The question could be what kind of jails the 'black' people of USA are living in and why ? Martin Luther King Jr. did'nt for sure live in vain. But, do you Bart really honestly mean to say, that there really is free "mixing" in USA ? Are there social freedom ? I disagree. from M. Sufilight with a smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Mix freely ? > > Well, what about the black guys in jail, which clearly outnumber the WHITE > > ones ? > > Give me a true statement, and I'll discuss it. While blacks are > represented disproportionately in jails, they are still very much the > minority of the prison population. And only a small minority of blacks > are in prison. Most are good, law abiding people. > > > What about the Afghan "muslims" at Cuba ??? > > Well, I will admit the United States is a bit bigoted against people > who murder our citizens. I guess your country loves people who murder > ITS citizens. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 14:12:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 22:12:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 35128 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 22:12:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 22:12:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 22:12:15 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CSDc-000493-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:12:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD41FCE.4F42E502@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:12:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > But, do you Bart really > honestly mean to say, that > there really is free "mixing" in USA ? > Are there social freedom ? More than anywhere else in the world. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 14:13:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 22:13:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 37058 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 22:13:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 22:13:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 22:13:27 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 32BA22635B2 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:13:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000f01c28c2a$540935c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: Wonderland... Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:08:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI all of you, An excerpt: Alice in Wonderland: Alice and Humpty Dumpty have a talk, (chapter VI): 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more or less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master--that's all.' A longer excerpt: "I don't know what you mean by `glory,' " Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't--till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!" "But `glory' doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument," Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less. "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's all." Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them--particularly verbs, they're the proudest--adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs--however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!" "Would you tell me, please," said Alice, "what that means ?" "Now you talk like a reasonable child," said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. "I meant by "impenetrability' that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you meant to do next, as I suppose you don't intend to stop here all the rest of your life." "That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone. "When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra." "Oh!" said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark. "Ah, you should see 'em come round me of a Saturday night," Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to side: "for to get their wages, you know." (Alice didn't venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you see I can't tell you.) from M. Sufilight with a tricky smile... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bilmer@surfsouth.com Thu Nov 14 14:40:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 22:40:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 79722 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 22:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 22:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta01.durocom.com) (216.53.195.242) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 22:40:29 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.181.207]) by fl-mta01.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021114224027.YHVU16017.fl-mta01@default> for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:40:27 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c28c2f$5dc15ca0$cfb580d8@default> To: References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:44:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Morten, please come and see for yourself. Airline tickets are cheap. Almost as cheap as anti-America rhetoric. MLK JR would be pleased, I think, with the progress we have made since the 1960's when the civil rights movement brought racial issues to forefront. Of course, there is still much to be done and no doubt he would point the way to even greater advancement in our race relations, but he could not help but be pleased with where his vision has brought us thus far. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Hi Bart and all of you, > > Allright, allright then - lets assume then that the black guys in jail are > white ! <:-) > Then I ask why is it so ? > The question could be what kind of jails the 'black' people of USA are > living in and why ? > Martin Luther King Jr. did'nt for sure live in vain. But, do you Bart really > honestly mean to say, that > there really is free "mixing" in USA ? > Are there social freedom ? > > I disagree. > > > > from > M. Sufilight with a smile... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > Mix freely ? > > > Well, what about the black guys in jail, which clearly outnumber the > WHITE > > > ones ? > > > > Give me a true statement, and I'll discuss it. While blacks are > > represented disproportionately in jails, they are still very much the > > minority of the prison population. And only a small minority of blacks > > are in prison. Most are good, law abiding people. > > > > > What about the Afghan "muslims" at Cuba ??? > > > > Well, I will admit the United States is a bit bigoted against people > > who murder our citizens. I guess your country loves people who murder > > ITS citizens. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 14:51:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 22:51:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 88389 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 22:51:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 22:51:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 22:51:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CSpw-0004CT-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:51:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD42915.5132DC01@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:52:05 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <000f01c28c2f$5dc15ca0$cfb580d8@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Bill Meredith wrote: > Morten, please come and see for yourself. Airline tickets are cheap. > Almost as cheap as anti-America rhetoric. MLK JR would be pleased, I think, > with the progress we have made since the 1960's when the civil rights > movement brought racial issues to forefront. Of course, there is still much > to be done and no doubt he would point the way to even greater advancement > in our race relations, but he could not help but be pleased with where his > vision has brought us thus far. The problem with much anti-Americanism around the world is that, rather than compare the United States with their own countries, people compare the United States with perfection, and of course find it wanting. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 15:19:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 23:19:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 74605 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 23:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 23:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 23:19:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 23:19:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:19:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 959 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.78 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Mic Forster wrote: > Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal > Australians were meant to naturally die out why are > they still prospering today? One could reply that they > have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians > that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the > sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and > culture without any corruption. Excellent post. I have an issue with this one statement because it is undoubtedly true, but what HPB said is not. I refer to her position that the Tasmanians died out (without making any mention of the genocide) and then suggesting that the Australians (i.e., aborigines) were doing the same according to cosmic cycle. If we try to make what she said look like something other than what it was for the purpose of making it appear that she was right when we know that she was not, we slip into the trap of intellectual dishonesty. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 15:36:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 23:36:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 44990 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 23:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 23:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 23:36:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 23:36:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:36:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1768 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.78 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > While blacks are > represented disproportionately in jails, they are still very much the > minority of the prison population. And only a small minority of blacks > are in prison. It was reported in the news one time that 25% of the black male population is in prison or has been in prison at any one time. No comment on whether this makes sense or not, but it is the position of some black leaders that violence should be decriminalized as a form of reverse discrimination. The implication is that the high rate of incarceration is due to a cultural bias against violent subcultures rather than to a legitimate social need. (I.e., some subcultyures consider violence a good thing, but the law favors the Eurocentric model.) I am not sure I agree, but a s a philosopher I believe ideas which radically challenge commonly accepted prejudices have great value in shaking us out of routine ways of thinking. I would therefore encourage you to explore the pros and cons of that position whether you ultimate accept it or not. One other idea that has been floated which is less outrageous and has considerable merit is that the congress, determing that blacks favor crack cocaine whereas their sons and daughters favor the powdered form of the same drug, passed Draconian laws against crack while leaving penalties for use or possession of powdered cocaine relatively mild. Even the mild penalties are of course not enforced if the offender is connected. Look at the case of Winona Ryder, convicted of grand theft and free to do as she pleases. A fellow was featured on 60 MINUTES a few months ago who was not wealthy and who was sentenced to life for stealing a jelly doughnut. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 14 15:58:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 14 Nov 2002 23:58:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 70957 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2002 23:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2002 23:58:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 23:58:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2002 23:58:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:58:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word "Aryan" and the "Aryans" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3904 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word "Aryan" and the "Aryans": While having no intention to enter at present upon a discussion as to the nomadic races of the "Rhematic period," we reserve the right to question the full propriety of terming that portion of the primitive people from whose traditions the "Vedas" sprang into existence, Aryans. Some scientists find the existence of these Aryans not only unproved by science, but the traditions of Hindustan protesting against such an assumption. IU, II, 413, footnote. It has generally been agreed among Orientalists that the Aryans, 3,000 years B.C., were still in the steppes east of the Caspian, and united. Rawlinson conjectures that they "flowed east" from Armenia as a common centre; while two kindred streams began to flow, one northward over the Caucasus, and the other westward over Asia Minor and Europe. He finds the Aryans, at a period anterior to the fifteenth century before our era, "settled in the territory watered by the Upper Indus." Thence Vedic Aryans migrated to the Punjab, and Zendic Aryans westward, establishing the historical countries. But this, like the rest, is a hypothesis, and only given as such. Again, Rawlinson, evidently following Max Muller, says: "The early history of the Aryans is for many ages an absolute blank." But many learned Brahmans, however, have declared that they found trace of the existence of the Vedas as early as 2100 B.C.; and Sir William Jones, taking for his guide the astronomical data, places the Yagur-Veda 1580 B.C. This would be still "before Moses." IU, II, 433 We must remember, in this connection, that the peoples of Southwestern and Western Asia, including the Medes, were all Aryans. It is yet far from being proved who were the original and primitive masters of India. That this period is now beyond the reach of documentary history, does not preclude the probability of our theory that it was the mighty race of builders, whether we call them Eastern AEthiopians, or dark-skinned Aryans (the word meaning simply "noble warrior," a "brave"). They ruled supreme at one time over the whole of ancient India, enumerated later by Manu as the possession of those whom our scientists term the Sanscrit-speaking people. These Hindus are supposed to have entered the country from the northwest; they are conjectured by some to have brought with them the Brahmanical religion, and the language of the conquerors was probably the Sanscrit. On these three meagre data our philologists have worked ever since the Hindustani and its immense Sanscrit literature was forcibly brought into notice by Sir William Jones -- all the time with the three sons of Noah clinging around their necks. This is exact science, free from religious prejudices! Verily, ethnology would have been the gainer if this Noachian trio had been washed overboard and drowned before the ark reached land! The AEthiopians are generally classed in the Semitic group; but we have to see how far they have a claim to such a classification. We will also consider how much they might have had to do with the Egyptian civilization, which, as a writer expresses it, seems referable in the same perfection to the earliest dates, and not to have had a rise and progress, as was the case with that of other peoples. For reasons that we will now adduce, we are prepared to maintain that Egypt owes her civilization, commonwealth and arts -- especially the art of building, to pre-Vedic India, and that it was a colony of the dark-skinned Aryans, or those whom Homer and Herodotus term the eastern AEthiopians, i.e., the inhabitants of Southern India, who brought to it their ready-made civilization in the ante- chronological ages, of what Bunsen calls the pre-Menite, but nevertheless epochal history. IU, II, 435 Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 16:29:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 00:29:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 55341 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 00:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 00:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 00:29:25 -0000 Received: from 1cust134.tnt41.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.219.78.134] helo=u7k5a4) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CULj-0001Ml-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:28:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c28c3e$7f09b9c0$864edb43@u7k5a4> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:37:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Your writings might make a bit more sense in English, if you would get an English dictionary, and look up the difference between the word "where", and "were". >From the context of the text, it looks like you use the word "where" most anywhere when you mean either word. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:51 AM Subject: Theos-World Alice Bailey didn't knowingly copy from other books. > Alice Bailey did not copy from other books when she wrote the > voluminous works of "D.K." they where clearly written fluently and in > that sence her books are genuine (but in her biography she admitted to > have read Theosophical books all day for a period, while she was > cooking, ironing and so on) so did "Helene Smith" not copy from any > known script her "Martian writings" written fluently in front of witnesses. > > So there are logical explanations where the content of the Mahatma > Letters came from, and how they where created, the above is part of it > ( I repeat myself with this of course) so those who want to claim > explanations that defy all rules of physics and logic as we know them to > date (2002) should provide some reasonable evidence to proof > otherwise. > > For example where are other documents independent of Blavatsky > about this (apparently organized) Brotherhood in Tibet, Egypt, and other > places ? > > Besides having largely been produced as per above (Bailey/Smith/ and > the hundreds of other such examples that exist all over the place if you > just study the subject) it has been clearly shown that The Mahatma > Letters (again this seems to meet the pattern of Blavatsky see: ) also > contain directs copying from texts Blavatsky (or/and whoever helped her > at times) cuold clearly have in here (there if Damodar was involved) ) > position, like the (by now famous) "Kiddle incident" the copying from > American occultist P.B.Randolph's books and so on. Ad to this all the > evidence listed in the book by the Hare brothers already back in > 1936 "Who Wrote The Mahatma Letters ?" that NOT ALL, has been > refuted by Theosophists EVER, and added to this what we know today > (read the books of Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney) the case can be said to > be clear enough and closed. Blavatsky as is abundantly shown in > Johnson/Godwinn/Deveney clearly mined other people and sources, and > synthesized them. > > And the "elder Brothers" where not the older races, because they had to > go! But the elder brothers where the members of the Brotherhood that > had looked upon man since its conception. And they came from the > Aryan home land Atlantis carried ,there Atlantean palm leaf library up to > Tibet where they setled dow. But they where not Tibetans themselves > because they said Tibetans to be semblances of humanity that with all > the rest had to disappear. > > So the from there Aryan abode in Tibet they wrote the Mahatma letters > gave Blavatsky the Stanzas from Atlantis, and directed the writing of the > commentary of this Atlantian document they had carried up there and > make sure the Secret Doctrine with the teachings of the "elder" Aryan > brothers from Atlantis. > > Brian From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 16:29:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 00:29:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 22615 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 00:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 00:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 00:29:14 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CUMD-0005hj-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:29:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD43FEA.4840C872@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:29:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > It was reported in the news one time that 25% of the black male > population is in prison or has been in prison at any one time. I believe that includes ones who were merely arrested, and have no criminal record. It is interesting that, in the Watergate Tapes, it was revealed that Nixon believed that the gun control laws and the drug laws, in combination, would eventually eliminate the Blacks as a voting block, because they would ensure that most blacks would be rendered ineligible to vote. > model.) I am not sure I agree, but a s a philosopher I believe ideas > which radically challenge commonly accepted prejudices have great > value in shaking us out of routine ways of thinking. I, on the other hand, prefer calling bullshit bullshit. > One other idea that has been > floated which is less outrageous and has considerable merit is that > the congress, determing that blacks favor crack cocaine whereas their > sons and daughters favor the powdered form of the same drug, passed > Draconian laws against crack while leaving penalties for use or > possession of powdered cocaine relatively mild. Oh, the drug laws are VERY definitely targeted against minority groups. > A fellow was featured on 60 MINUTES a few > months ago who was not wealthy and who was sentenced to life for > stealing a jelly doughnut. Let's be more specific. He was sentenced for life because, in spite of being jailed several times in the past, he refused to give up crime. He knew damned well that if he got caught again in any crime, he would go to jail for life. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 16:44:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 00:44:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 25071 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 00:44:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 00:44:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 00:44:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 00:44:35 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:44:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS IS:. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000701c28c16$a61f1820$97de603e@captain5jkmnop> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 654 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Eichmann was a Jew for himself, as his name alone shows. Very interesting. I wonder if he was reincarnated as Ariel Sharon? The following site has several artiles on Amnesty International's condemntation of war crimes against the Pal;estinans: http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/ Or consider this shocking quotation: "Any protest to help enslaved people is a legitimate form of protest - including bombing and other forms of violent action." The speaker was not an Arab but Meir Kahane, leader of the Jewish Defense League, November 25, 1970. From netemara888@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 17:04:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:04:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 63047 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:04:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:04:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:04:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 01:04:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:04:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Master KH on Damodar--unholy alliance? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1716 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > In June, 1886, Master KH wrote to Colonel Olcott: > > "The poor boy has had his fall. Before he could stand in the presence > of the 'Masters' he had to undergo the severest trials that a > neophyte ever passed through, to atone for the many questionable > doings in which he had over-zealously taken part, bringing disgrace > upon the sacred science and its adepts. The mental and physical > suffering was too much for his weak frame, which has been quite > prostrated, but he will recover in course of time. . . . " Letters > from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 29. > > Who wrote this letter? HPB was in Europe and Damodar's whereabouts > were unknown. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc *********** Hi, I just tuned in here for the evening and have to read all these posts which look great. So you are saying that KH did this letter. I am not saying only DKM and HPB did all the letters I am saying they did them in some sort of unholy alliance, which is not my characterization but that of others. What did he do that was so awful bad? I focus on HPB so much I have not given this much thought. What did I miss? Is it all about the forgeries? I know he did a lot, but is that really it? My research tells me it is was karmic payback, not from that lifetime of foibles and sins so much, but from other lives of much deeper sins, that I am still tracing. What the heck did he do from historical standpoint that was so bad? And what is your opinion of what happened to Damodar, Daniel? I think he died right after he left.. Netemara BTW Thanks for the new info *********** From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 17:08:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:08:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 65094 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 01:08:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:08:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD43FEA.4840C872@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1922 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.220 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Let's be more specific. He was sentenced for life because, in spite of > being jailed several times in the past, he refused to give up crime. He > knew damned well that if he got caught again in any crime, he would go > to jail for life. I will not dispute what you are saying, but you failed to address the key issue. He only went to jail for life because he was poor. Robert Downey is not going to jail for life. No movie star gets pinched for blowing so much coke up his nose that he completely wipes out his nasal membranes. G. Gordon Liddy ws in nine differet prisons and recently pronounced himself unrepentant. He is not going to jail for life. Winona Ryder is not going to jail at all. She thinks it is outrageous that she even had to appear in court, instead or playing around in her Porsche. My favorite writer, Anatole France, put is best: "The law forbids the rich as well as the poor to beg for pennies, sleep under bridges, and steal bread." Of course if one is rich there is no penalty for doing these things. There is hardly any way to get around this. The truth in it is self evident. You probably don't believe Tawana Brawley's story or that OJ Simpson should have gone free either, do you? You are stuck in the past, Bart. It is true that this might as well be Mississippi in 1949 since so little has changed, but one thing has changed: the oppressed are not willing to take any more. It makes me nervous since as a white man I will be one of the objects of their wrath when they decide they want their freedom. But that they will eventually demand their freedom is exhilirating at the same time. It's going to take more than a house slave like Colin Powell or a token nlack like Condoleeza Rice to satisfy Harry Belafonte. There are going to have to be some meaningful changes. No more tokenism. From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 14 17:11:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:11:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 41976 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:11:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:11:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:11:04 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.2d.268f8259 (4320) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:11:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2d.268f8259.2b05a3a4@cs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:11:00 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hmmm, Sufi, Which way are your eyeballs facing when your looking into your head? Lol Friendly joke only, John From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 14 17:14:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:14:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 55073 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:14:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:14:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:14:39 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.32.30438a07 (4320) for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:14:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32.30438a07.2b05a478@cs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:14:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Imagine a World from 1776 to now in which the U.S.A had never come into being. What would be the form of it? Describe please. John From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 14 17:40:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:40:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 34928 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:40:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:40:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:40:19 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CVT0-0003yU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:40:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD45092.B1C0AAF6@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:40:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > I will not dispute what you are saying, but you failed to address the > key issue. He only went to jail for life because he was poor. No, he went to jail for life because he was a crook. > Robert Downey is not going to jail for life. True. But he did not do anything that he knew in advance would put him into jail for life. > No movie star gets > pinched for blowing so much coke up his nose that he completely wipes > out his nasal membranes. Well, I oppose most drug laws; I believe that they are part of a campaign to deny that there is a basic right of freedom of thought (hate crime laws are another step in that direction). Besides, I like to consider them to be evolution in action. > G. Gordon Liddy ws in nine differet prisons and recently pronounced > himself unrepentant. He is not going to jail for life. No, but as a convicted felon, he has forfeited a number of rights. And he served his time, and did not continue to commit crimes. > Winona Ryder is not going to jail at all. She thinks it > is outrageous that she even had to appear in court, instead or > playing around in her Porsche. If she does it again, watch what happens. > My favorite writer, Anatole France, put is best: > > "The law forbids the rich as well as the poor to beg for pennies, > sleep under bridges, and steal bread." And there is no reason in the United States that anybody has to beg for pennies, sleep under bridges, or steal bread, unless they are mentally ill, or have a mental illness they brought upon themselves (such as drug addiction). > Of course if one is rich there is no penalty for doing these things. > There is hardly any way to get around this. The truth in it is self > evident. So, what do you suggest we do to the rich so that they are more motivated to commit crimes? > You probably don't believe Tawana Brawley's story or that OJ Simpson > should have gone free either, do you? I don't believe Tawana Brawley's story. Not even Al Sharpton still believes Tawana Brawley was telling the truth. As far as OJ Simpson, I believe that the initial search of his house, and therefore all the evidence that resulted from it, was illegal, and therefore he should have gone free. > You are stuck in the past, > Bart. It is true that this might as well be Mississippi in 1949 > since so little has changed, Except a few little things like integration, black voting rights, and affirmative action, just to name a few. Bart Lidofsky From bilmer@surfsouth.com Thu Nov 14 17:43:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:43:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 78717 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:42:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:42:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta03.durocom.com) (216.53.195.244) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:42:59 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.181.207]) by fl-mta03.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021115014258.ISSF619.fl-mta03@default> for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:42:58 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c28c48$cfd3e6a0$cfb580d8@default> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:46:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Harry Belafonte is a rich liberal black man. Surely you don't mean that he is oppressed and not gonna take it anymore? If I had his money, I'd give mine away. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Let's be more specific. He was sentenced for life because, in spite > of > > being jailed several times in the past, he refused to give up > crime. He > > knew damned well that if he got caught again in any crime, he would > go > > to jail for life. > > I will not dispute what you are saying, but you failed to address the > key issue. He only went to jail for life because he was poor. > Robert Downey is not going to jail for life. No movie star gets > pinched for blowing so much coke up his nose that he completely wipes > out his nasal membranes. G. Gordon Liddy ws in nine differet prisons > and recently pronounced himself unrepentant. He is not going to jail > for life. Winona Ryder is not going to jail at all. She thinks it > is outrageous that she even had to appear in court, instead or > playing around in her Porsche. > > My favorite writer, Anatole France, put is best: > > "The law forbids the rich as well as the poor to beg for pennies, > sleep under bridges, and steal bread." > > Of course if one is rich there is no penalty for doing these things. > There is hardly any way to get around this. The truth in it is self > evident. > > You probably don't believe Tawana Brawley's story or that OJ Simpson > should have gone free either, do you? You are stuck in the past, > Bart. It is true that this might as well be Mississippi in 1949 > since so little has changed, but one thing has changed: the oppressed > are not willing to take any more. It makes me nervous since as a > white man I will be one of the objects of their wrath when they > decide they want their freedom. But that they will eventually demand > their freedom is exhilirating at the same time. It's going to take > more than a house slave like Colin Powell or a token nlack like > Condoleeza Rice to satisfy Harry Belafonte. There are going to have > to be some meaningful changes. No more tokenism. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bilmer@surfsouth.com Thu Nov 14 17:52:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 01:52:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 98674 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 01:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 01:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta03.durocom.com) (216.53.195.244) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 01:52:22 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.181.207]) by fl-mta03.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021115015220.IZEH619.fl-mta03@default> for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:52:20 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c28c4a$1f191040$cfb580d8@default> To: References: <3DD45092.B1C0AAF6@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:55:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith > > You are stuck in the past, > > Bart. It is true that this might as well be Mississippi in 1949 > > since so little has changed, > Except a few little things like integration, black voting rights, and > affirmative action, just to name a few. > > Bart Lidofsky And Harry Belafonte, Michael Jordan, Colin Powell, Tiger Woods, P'Diddy, Bill Cosby, Henry Aaron, to name but a few others. Bill > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From micforster@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 18:26:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 02:26:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 8992 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 02:26:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 02:26:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 02:26:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20021115022644.63645.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.34.224.152] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:26:44 PST Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:26:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Status of Indigenous Australians - Steve To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster --- Steve Stubbs wrote: > If we try > to make what she said look like something other than > what it was for > the purpose of making it appear that she was right > when we know that > she was not, we slip into the trap of intellectual > dishonesty. > > Steve, I agree completely. Although I am ever realising that many things that were written by HPB are true but the language that was employed by HPB has effectively warranted the message redundant. This can be particularly seen in the concept of races. Considering the time when HPB was writing the term "race" would have seemed apt but today there are many political connotations that come with the word. I think it was Bart who said that a race is not so much a race as in an Anglo-Saxon sense, rather a race is a concept more akin to culture. Such a definition would be more favourable for our modern world-view. I know that the "typical" Australian that you see on the street today is very dissimilar to an Australian of, say, 30 years ago. That culture (or you might also like to call it a fashion trend etc) of 30 years ago has all but died out but we nevertheless see traces of it every now and again. Just something to think about. mic __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From netemara888@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 18:55:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 02:55:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 63367 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 02:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 02:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 02:55:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 02:55:45 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:55:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5277 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > While blacks are > > represented disproportionately in jails, they are still very much > the > > minority of the prison population. And only a small minority of > blacks > > are in prison. > > It was reported in the news one time that 25% of the black male > population is in prison or has been in prison at any one time. No > comment on whether this makes sense or not, but it is the position of > some black leaders that violence should be decriminalized as a form > of reverse discrimination. The implication is that the high rate of > incarceration is due to a cultural bias against violent subcultures > rather than to a legitimate social need. (I.e., some subcultyures > consider violence a good thing, but the law favors the Eurocentric > model.) I am not sure I agree, but a s a philosopher I believe ideas > which radically challenge commonly accepted prejudices have great > value in shaking us out of routine ways of thinking. I would > therefore encourage you to explore the pros and cons of that position > whether you ultimate accept it or not. One other idea that has been > floated which is less outrageous and has considerable merit is that > the congress, determing that blacks favor crack cocaine whereas their > sons and daughters favor the powdered form of the same drug, passed > Draconian laws against crack while leaving penalties for use or > possession of powdered cocaine relatively mild. Even the mild > penalties are of course not enforced if the offender is connected. > Look at the case of Winona Ryder, convicted of grand theft and free > to do as she pleases. A fellow was featured on 60 MINUTES a few > months ago who was not wealthy and who was sentenced to life for > stealing a jelly doughnut. ********************Part I I am glad to see someone else discussing race besides myself. When I do I get called a nazi. But as one who is intimately involved with blacks who are at an impressionable age, by virtue of my profession, I see the violence that is a big part of their culture. As my brother would often describe his impression of blacks "they are very physical." I see the truth of that up close and personal every day. But is it criminal or a violent subculture as many whites characterize it? But who am I talking about? I'm black, but we were not only never spanked or hit, but I had never seen people fight until I started teaching at an inner city school. Now, people think black culture is due to Colonialism, teenage motherhood, racism, slavery, poverty, low IQ, and a host of other things. But I say rubbish to all these reasons. Not because I did a thesis on this subject and spent some time thinking about it, NO. Because I forgot all about that stuff and went on with my life in a lily white world. Moving to Texas has changed that for me. I teach in a public inner city school. It was/is culture shock to me. I have never seen people act like this. It is almost shocking to me sometimes. Yet, I am black too. So, that's why I ask who the heck or what is blackness or black culture. I did not answer the question I posed above, but here is my answer which I have been cooking for a long time: what we see is what we get. The history that blacks have gone through has not made them different people. The forces of rebirth which have brought all the root races into black bodies and vice versa has created what we see. No one is exempt from having come through every race. But there is an essence in each race which is held, kept alive by certain people and they are the aboriginals, the essence, the source of a particular race. And no amount of killing, moving, hating or integrating will change the essence of a race. Netemara *********Part II******* About why the rich are set free, and we don't protest, and the poor do time and we don't mind: I think the following opinion, I expressed on another forum in talking about the controversy of Kirpal Singh, is the crux of how Americans and others see 'crime' and 'criminals.' (Edited from its original form) We are emotionally tied to our sins and our sinners! Therefore, we do turn a blind eye to those who sin in our presence. This is why there are so many young women, to use an example that gets everyone's gall, who live with two parents and one of the parents, usually the father, is found to be molesting one or all of the children. Then you have the boys who claimed to have murdered the dad (whites) for this very reason. However, they had no mother at home. But in the cases where there is a mom she always pleads ignorance. What I think she is really pleading to in most cases is "tunnel vision." She don't see cause she don't wanna see. That is the emotional ties that bind. Look at the Catholic Church. Why? Because that is a classic slap on the limp wrist. And in this case the parishoners play the role of the deceived mom. And what the heck are they saying? They are saying "We loved that priest!" They say "he was handsome, or he was nice, or he was a great minister. We want him back!" I rest my case Judge forum. LOL Netemara From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 21:23:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 05:23:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 13362 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 05:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 05:23:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 05:23:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 05:23:47 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:23:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: DANIEL C. CALDWELL on what where the Mahatmas if they where not Tibetans? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2559 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach What "race" where the "Mahatmas" if they where not Tibetans ? 1) If you want to receive a response lets start with you listing all references (easy to do because there is an on-line search engine for that , except if I do it you will say its wrong) to "Aryan 5th + 6th root race" in the Mahatma letters plus Aryan in general. If I herewith would send it you probably would say it is incomplete, so lets start with you sending it. Also, "Koot Hoomi" wasn't on the scene yet (invented yet) when Blavatsky wrote Isis. I don't think B.A.G. from what he told me when I asked him yesterday if he would still want to start and write a commentary about the Mahatma Letters, it seems he is not willing to go for Daniel C.Caldwell Isis Unveiled hatt tricks. B.A.G. I am finding out has very limited time available, and many other duties including hundreds of letters he receives from people asking him about various things. It is (B.A.G. does) known that the majority in the text of Isis didn't come from Blavatsky's pen at all but was copied verbatim from printed books , of the 100 ore so Blavatsky had in her appartment that time. However ever since the "Mahatma Letters" Blavatsky did identified , "the white" with Aryan, Fifth Root-Race. 2) Also important is that whoever wrote these letters these "Mahatmas" didn't identify themselves with "Tibetans" that is clear from the fact that they called the "Tibetans semblances of Humanity" that had to "disappear" So 2e question to Daniel C. Caldwell what where the Mahatmas if they where not Tibetans, yet claimed to be writing from Tibet ? 3) Third question to Daniel C. Caldwell , who are "the elder Brothers " in Theosophical lore, or according to D.C. Caldwell ? Blavatsky wrote: "The Malays and Papuans are a mixed stock, resulting from the intermarriages of the low...the time is drawing near when there will remain nothing but three great human types (before the Sixth Root-Race dawns), the white (Aryan, Fifth Root-Race), the yellow, and the African negro - with their crossings (Atlanto-European divisions)" H.P.Blavatsky. So she does identify "white (Aryan, Fifth Root-Race)" as one of the only three that would survive. So far, since the 1880's, things seem to have developed in a different direction however. Could the "Mahatmas" be wrong ?? http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word "Aryan" and the "Aryans": From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 21:49:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 05:49:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 4490 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 05:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 05:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 05:49:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 05:49:50 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:49:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Who Wrote The Mahatma Letters ? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7525 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach To speak first of Master Morya, the Hyde Park cavalcade of 1851 is not mentioned in The Letters, but the first encounter between H.P.B. and her "guide", by the waters of the Serpentine at night, is recorded in Sinnett's biographical Incidents and Besant's H.P.B. In The Letters the Rajput's princely airs are less emphasized than his more homely traits. Mr. Sinnett, it is true, once addressed him as "Illustrious", and the word clung to him for years; he also described M. to K.H. as "an imperious sort of chap", and was not allowed to forget the phrase. Mr. Leadbeater is clairvoyantly struck by the same characteristic, and uses the same word-"imperious". After the American era, M. was generally called "the Boss" by his pupil H.P.B., and in moments of effusion (says K.H.) "she has made of M. an Apollo of Belvedere, the glowing description of whose physical beauty, made him more than once start in anger, and break his pipe while swearing like a true-Christian" (P- 313)- In body M. is "bulky", in temper "laughing" and "brusque", in attainments he is no scholar and hates writing-so much so that he does it badly, as the MSS. show. K.H. does not appear from Mr. Leadbeater's account to have been in the procession of Princes to the Crystal Palace in 1851, yet the Letters tell us he was a tireless horseman in the steep defiles of Tibet, and so they prepare us for introduction to the big brown bay of to-day. K.H.'s home is mentioned twice in the Mahatma Letters and once by H.P.B., but the veils of secrecy and modesty obscure its site and its interior comforts. Indeed, most of the references to the Masters' abodes go to form the idea of simple and almost stoical retreats, suited to the habits of unworldly philosophers. We confess we wondered, on first reading about them, what accommodation there was for the large class of "young and innocent chelas", the great dictionaries and the extensive libraries mentioned in the Letters, but now that we learn, through Mr. Leadbeater's clairvoyant survey, of the capacity and contents of the Master's bungalow and its subterranean chambers, everything becomes clear. Here is given the very plan of it, with the students' benches and the Master's arm-chair. We remember, too, that it was here that M., as deputy correspondent with A.P.S., once occupied the house, and wrote therefrom Letter xiii, in full view of "the iceberg now before me, in our K.H.'s home" (P- 76)- which, strange to say, has melted from the scene in C.W.L.'s picture. It was here also that this Mahatma, taking the advantage of the presence of a keyboard, illustrated an argument in "Septenary Cosmogony" with the following musical simile: "Go to your forte-piano and execute upon the lower register of keys the seven notes of the lower octave-up and down. Begin pianipiano: crescendo from the first key and having struck fortissimo on the last lower note go back diminuendo getting out of your last note a hardly perceptible sound-morendo pianissimi. The first and the last notes will represent to you the first and last spheres, in the cycle of evolution the highest! The one you strike once is our planet. Remember you have to reverse the order on the forte-piano: begin with the seventh note, not with the first." Is not Master Morya in rather deep waters in using these "Western" musical terms? He seems to admit they are not part of his own knowledge when he adds: ("as I luckily for my illustration find it printed in one of the musick pieces in K.H.'s old portmanteau".) Why not "portfolio" for "musick pieces", if we may be so bold as to ask? As for the illustration itself, since we can hardly make sense of its literal terms, still less can we grasp the "septenary cosmogony" it is intended to make clear. Let us now give some facts of fifty years ago relating to Djwal Kul, the third now living Master, known to us formerly as K.H.'s Tibetan Chela. He is first mentioned in the Letters as a transmitter of messages from India to Tibet (p. 66) and appears next as "D.J.K.", handy with a compass and pen in drawing for his Master an explanatory diagram of the Septenary Cosmogony (p. 86). Soon after the publication of The Occult World he appears again as the writer or precipitator of the first six of the Mahatma Letters, in which connection he is charged by K.H. with having foolishly invented, as half a nom deplume, the words "Lal Singh" in his master's signature, and writes what will be remembered as the fatal "Kiddle Letter" (P- 364) D.K. is called "Juala Khool" by Master Morya, and under the safe nom de plume of "Reviewer", 293 Who Wrote the Mahatma Letters ? was authorized to write a few notes in The Theosophist in answer to an article by Mr. Oxley (P. 2 70) He accordingly does so in Letter cxxv, restoring to his Master the rejected suffix of "Lal Singh",but writing it in the hand of Damodar! D.K.'s letter is signed "Gjual-Khool mxxx", which might seem to be the true spelling of his name, had it not been written six or more other ways by his Masters (PP453 -4) and as many by H.P.B. K.H. had apparently received criticism on the score of this extraordinary variety, hence he tries to settle the point in Letter LIII: "The second letter, I think, was thrown on his table by Dj. Khool (the real spelling of whose name is Gjual, but not so phonetically") (p. 298). Djwal Kul's last-mentioned feat in The Mahatma Letters was an astral penetration of the bulwarks of the SS. Clan Drummond and an appearance in Madame Blavatsky's cabin 'at sea ex Algiers, when he asked for a piece of paper and wrote a letter for his Master to Mr. Sinnett (P- 467). From The Blavatsky Letters we learn that this Oriental Will0-the-wisp paid similar astral visits to Madame Blavatsky and the Countess Wachtmeister in their European abodes, much to the amazement of the former's clairaudient but not clairvoyant nurse. So much for Gjual Khool, as we find him in "the basis"; as already said, he has his higher place in "the Superstructure". Since no one but H.P.B. has ever professed to have seen this Chela face to face, and since the only letter over his signature is written in the known hand of Damodar the "Desinherited". it is evident what useful material support Mr. Leadbeater has given to his dubious existence by recognizing him clairvoyantly as now a Master in Tibet, and holding pleasant conferences with him on the roof of Adyar Headquarters. Truth to tell, the Tibetan Brothers made their virtual exit as long ago as the year 1884. Morya took his leave, we think, soon after the Piccadilly seance at Sam Ward's rooms, and Koot Hoomi's last letter reached London some time in the following year, and reminded Mr. Sinnett that the state of Madame Blavatsky's health and other conditions portended the close of the correspondence. The career of The Mahatmas was a sort of comedy, we have no cause to be angry with them, for after all, they did not write the Mahatma Letters. "It seems to me" ' wrote the Countess Wachtmeister to Mr. Sinnett in January, 1886, "that it is time now to hang a veil before the Mahatmas" (B.L., P. 28o). With this opinion we agree, though in a different sense from that implied by the lady, and we hope that our labours throughout this book will help to weave a curtain that will effectually prevent such a play as we have witnessed ever being acted again. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 14 22:17:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 06:17:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 35986 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 06:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 06:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 06:17:32 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B010262EEE for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:17:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000b01c28c6d$f3899840$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <000f01c28c2f$5dc15ca0$cfb580d8@default> <3DD42915.5132DC01@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:12:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Bart and all of you, No Bart. We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - extremly nationalistic - country which say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they do the opposite ! USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the EU-countries - looking at percentages. And what about the arab countries or India ? And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of USA are allowed "FREE MIXING". Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is important. Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? I still disagree. from M. Suflight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Bill Meredith wrote: > > Morten, please come and see for yourself. Airline tickets are cheap. > > Almost as cheap as anti-America rhetoric. MLK JR would be pleased, I think, > > with the progress we have made since the 1960's when the civil rights > > movement brought racial issues to forefront. Of course, there is still much > > to be done and no doubt he would point the way to even greater advancement > > in our race relations, but he could not help but be pleased with where his > > vision has brought us thus far. > > The problem with much anti-Americanism around the world is that, rather > than compare the United States with their own countries, people compare > the United States with perfection, and of course find it wanting. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 15 01:19:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 09:19:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 64597 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 09:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 09:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 09:19:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.2f.3006fe84 (3964) for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:19:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2f.3006fe84.2b061631@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:19:45 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/13/02 3:48:42 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > Among professional magicians, the Egyptian magicians are admired as the >first of the great charlatans (the methods they used are well-known >among magical historians). The last of the great charlatans was, of >course, Count Cagliostro. And, of course, the best one was the Egyptian, Moses. I heard he could turn a staff into a snake, and make frogs fall out of the sky . ;-) And, my father, Moses (Mosher Ben Aaron Kohane) could turn a white silk scarf taken off a lady stranger he just met and turn it bright blue without touching it. I witnessed that, and all he would say was he learned that trick directly from the first Moses -- while blowing a smoke ring from his pipe in my direction and giving me a sly grin and a wink. (Though, he did tell me how Moses-I performed all his 7 plague miracles... But that still remains our family secret. Nonetheless, he was no charlatan -- since he was well known and admired as the best dyer of fine silk in the entire Western world, and pioneered the dying of Nylon when it was first invented by Du Pont in 1937. Unfortunately, as a practicing alchemist, he never managed to turn lead into gold. X-( BTW, the first Moses was also a pretty good mason and knew how to write on and turn clay into stone. ;-) LHM > Bart Lidofsky From amerman@theosophy.net Fri Nov 15 01:22:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 09:22:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 22043 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 09:22:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 09:22:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 09:22:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 23280 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 09:22:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Wes) (66.75.65.8) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 09:22:45 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.75.65.8 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 04:22:45(EST) on November 15, 2002 X-HELO-From: Wes X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.75.65.8 Message-ID: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:22:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Wes Amerman" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=59086689 Brian/Brigitte, I've really had enough. First of all, you refused to discuss any idea seriously with me, and completely ignored my questions and comments, weeks and months ago, about the shortcomings of modern science and the gaps in its approach to evolution and consciousness. All you seem to want to do is bash Theosophy and any attempt to defend it, all the while quoting from secondary sources who share your derogatory views. Seldom, if ever, do you cite the source Theosophy which you claim is faulty. And, when someone (Daniel, Dallas or Leon, for example) quotes Blavatsky or someone who supports her to show another side to the matter, you put them down and attack them personally, as you most recently did by saying Daniel has "no credentials!" Why not just take an IDEA to task? I don't mean a secondary, latter day student's interpretation, well-known or not, but a bona fide idea from Blavatsky or her Teachers? If you disagree with Theosophy, why not have the courage to discuss the central ideas: spiritual evolution, karma, reincarnation, etc. and their relationships to human lives, needs and aspirations today? Instead, you criticize the more abstruse and difficult concepts (such as rounds and races, of which you have absolutely NO clue), and then garble and misinterpret them to make it seem that they support the most heinous of UN-brotherly sentiments and actions! X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 10:16:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 37879 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 10:16:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 10:16:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 10:16:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 10:16:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:16:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2f.3006fe84.2b061631@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2160 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach leonmaurer: "could turn a staff into a snake' Brian: That's an easy one, I learned this trick in India. If hit in a fast way on the head, a snake will go in shock and for a short wile stiffen up like a stick. The conference in India where they demonstrated this also had a lecture on the Indian rope trick by the way, but as I already once mentioned to Steve Stubbs, I would have to look up my notes for the details what they all said about it. Will try to post that in about 5-6 hours on my web site. Brian. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 11/13/02 3:48:42 PM, bartl@s... writes: > > > Among professional magicians, the Egyptian magicians are admired as the > >first of the great charlatans (the methods they used are well-known > >among magical historians). The last of the great charlatans was, of > >course, Count Cagliostro. > > And, of course, the best one was the Egyptian, Moses. I heard he could turn a > staff into a snake, and make frogs fall out of the sky . ;-) And, my father, > Moses (Mosher Ben Aaron Kohane) could turn a white silk scarf taken off a > lady stranger he just met and turn it bright blue without touching it. I > witnessed that, and all he would say was he learned that trick directly from > the first Moses -- while blowing a smoke ring from his pipe in my direction > and giving me a sly grin and a wink. (Though, he did tell me how Moses-I > performed all his 7 plague miracles... But that still remains our family > secret. Nonetheless, he was no charlatan -- since he was well known > and admired as the best dyer of fine silk in the entire Western world, and > pioneered the dying of Nylon when it was first invented by Du Pont in 1937. > Unfortunately, as a practicing alchemist, he never managed to turn lead into > gold. X-( BTW, the first Moses was also a pretty good mason and knew how to > write on and turn clay into stone. ;-) > > LHM > > > Bart Lidofsky From amerman@theosophy.net Fri Nov 15 02:56:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 10:56:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 44697 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 10:56:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 10:56:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 10:56:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 43841 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 10:56:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Wes) (66.75.65.8) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 10:56:45 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.75.65.8 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 05:56:45(EST) on November 15, 2002 X-HELO-From: Wes X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.75.65.8 Message-ID: <003c01c28c95$a5657260$08414b42@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: RE: Blavatsky's "The Mote and the Beam" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:56:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Wes Amerman" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=59086689 Dear Mr. Goswami, As I understand from Brian/Brigitte's recent post that you are not well, please be sure the following is not directed personally toward you, nor was my last note sent to this list. However, as you make many bold assertions as facts about Madame Blavatsky and Theosophy, I think it only fair that you allow me to respond. In your letter to Brian/Brigitte, posted yesterday to this list, you first make five points of which I will let the first four pass. Then you write, 5, SHE CONSIDERED THE CRUEL, OPPRESSIVE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' ENGLISH LESS NOBLE OF CHARACTER THAN THE HARD WORKING LESS-EVOLVED OTHER RACES. Stop. Where in this article does Blavatsky use the phrase "less-evolved" when referring to less "civilized" cultures? Her reference in the article to "inferior races" is in direct reference to a contemporary source, Lumholtz, whom she then quotes. You then follow with this astounding statement: NO WHERE IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE IN THIS LETTER THAT SHE WASN'T A RACIST. Then you go on about your Caribbean ancestors and the issues surrounding the terrible plight of slaves in that region. I don't dispute your facts, but I ask you: What does this have to do with Blavatsky and Theosophy? Aside from the logically thankless task of proving a negative, your statement is backwards. YOU are making the assertion that Blavatsky was a racist. I say, "PROVE IT." Set any standard you like, Modern or Nineteenth Century, and show by Blavatsky's words or deeds that she was anything but a selfless altruist with a love for humanity. Then you write: SHE CLEARLY CONSIDERED OTHER RACES INFERIOR TO HER IMAGINED 'ARYANS', WITH THE NEGROES AND VEDDA OR AUSTRALOIDS ON THE LOWEST RUNG OF HER IMAGINED EVOLUTIONARY LADDER. And further, SHE WAS THE AUTHOR OF A PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS, RACIST THOUGHT SYSTEM, WHICH HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY RACISTS WORLD-WIDE, AND HAS CAUSED AND IS CAUSING UNTOLD HUMAN SUFFERING. Mr. Goswami, just how do you come to these conclusions, either from this article or elsewhere? To what statements in "The Secret Doctrine" do you refer? Have you not realized that something besides the ordinary usage of the term "race" is meant by the time one gets to the latter part of Volume Two? It might be helpful to consider that Blavatsky seems to use the word in at least three ways: 1. To refer to the concept of the stream of Monads, as they pass through various states of substance called Globes, or Rounds, which are analogous to the "principles" of the planet earth. This establishes the concept of humanity as a "wave," or "river" of consciousness, not the form. 2. To refer to the Continents which the Monads inhabit, identified either by time period or location. Thus, the First root race was the Imperishable Sacred Land, the Second was Hyperborea, the Third Lemuria, the Fourth Atlantis and the Fifth the (current) Aryan. You can regard this as "mythical," if you like, but it affirms the common humanity of all of us as we share the human form throughout vast ages of the history of the earth. 3. To refer to the condition of the Monads as they awaken to Self-Consciousness toward the latter part of the Third Root Race, when the general term "human race" begins to have meaning in a sense we can comprehend. And, for all intents and purposes, the entire human family today IS the "Fifth Root Race" because the fifth principle, Manas, or mind, the thinking principle, is foremost. However, the problem with most of us humans is that we confuse the substance with the form. We think the "Man" is the "Human Form," when it is the indwelling "Thinker." There are better and more refined human forms, as well as poorly developed ones, to be sure, but we are all spiritual beings within that use them; more than that, Blavatsky taught that we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of outer distinctions (minor variances of form). There are groups of humans that use one or another of the human faculties better than others -- spiritual perception, astral sensitivities and abilities, men tal faculties, etc. Those with acute rational minds have sometimes erroneously been called "advanced;" those with lesser brain-minds "less-evolved." These are misleading conventions, perhaps, and the 21st Century will hopefully do a better job than the 19th and 20th in using them. But to argue, as you do, that Blavatsky, either intentionally or unintentionally promoted "a profoundly dangerous, racist thought system" is to promote the most vicious untruth. If people have taken her ideas and twisted them to their own evil ends, you might as well lay the same charge against Jesus, Krishna or the Buddha! Any partial truth can be turned, and when misused, has more power than a blatant lie. Blavatsky herself put to rest any Westerner's delusions about the superiority of his/her "race:" "If to-morrow the continent of Europe were to disappear and other lands to re-emerge instead; and if the African tribes were to separate and scatter on the face of the earth, it is they who, in about a hundred thousand years hence, would form the bulk of the civilized nations. And it is the descendants of those of our highly cultured nations, who might have survived on some one island, without any means of crossing the new seas, that would fall back into a state of relative savagery. Thus the reason given for dividing humanity into superior and inferior races falls to the ground and becomes a fallacy." "The Secret Doctrine" Volume 2, page 425 FN Your last comments are gratuitous baloney at best, backhanded compliments if I ever heard them. There are several, but one will suffice: IN FAIRNESS HOWEVER, WE MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO ASCRIBE ATTITUDES AND CRIMES TO HER, FOR WHICH SHE WAS NOT GUILTY. Why bother to try to be "fair?" You apparently know nothing about either Blavatsky or her writings, and choose first to deprecate, then damn them with the faint and false praise of her alleged ignorance of what she said. Again, I challenge you to prove your thus-far unsubstantiated allegations. They are untrue and unfair. Best Regards, Wes Amerman From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 03:20:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 84266 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 11:20:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:20:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 10331 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wes Amerman: First of all, you refused to discuss any idea seriously with me. Brian: I am very glad to discuss ideas if brought "seriously" but not just in polemic unserious way as you do, which show no evidence of true scolarship. Pls, do yourself a favor and at lest read following elementary books on the subject (I read them three years ago) and I am willing to discuss any of the subjects brought up there in a "serious" way.(see below) But you'l have to quote referrences if you really want to have an honest discussion. That is another thing you don't do. Lets start with some truthfull litterature: Said, E. (1978). Orientalism. Inden, R. (1990). Imagining India. Breckenridge, C. & van der Veer, P. (1993). Orientalism and the postcolonial predicament: perspectives on South Asia. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. Clarke, J. (1997). Oriental enlightenment. King, R. (1999). Orientalism and religion: postcolonial theory, India and the mystic East. Brian. Another thing is that nobody has ever been able to point out a factual error (with references to proof it) regarding the articles (1) posted on my web site. This in fact shows more about my true motivations then all the accusation on theos talk, evidently a true meeting ground for crazed out crack pots who believe in "free energy solar engines" and so on. Exceptions are Steve Stubbs and a very, very, few others. Two years ago when in India to do archeological research I attended a short seminar that was brought to my attention by my Indian translater, whose uncle he told me at one point was an Indian "magician" who was teaching would be Indian gurus also called "godmen." On the conference I met an interesting Englishman called Peter Lamont from the Koestler Parapsychology Unit, University of Edinburgh, who gave a lecture about mentalism and pseudo-psychicsm. I will post this lecture as a next part on this web site, Nov. 17, 2002. Peter gave a lecture in the UK later, reporting on some of the information gleaned at the conference in India, plus his own research on the subject. Peter casted a sceptical eye over levitation, sword swallowing and body piercing, and demonstrated by stabbing a spike through his own tongue. "You can fake that or you can do it for real," he said. Interest in the paranormal and supernatural has been around for a long time. In the mundane world we have, and especially the less spiritual world, we hanker after something that tells us there is a bit more to life. We have an interest in something that gives some sense of spirituality. Every second traveller I have met in India is on a quest for spirituality. They don't go to Shepherd's Bush to find it. They go to India." The rope trick itself never used a rope. The legend is that the rope goes up and a boy shins up it and disappears at the top. What seems to be the case is that first-hand accounts of this were exaggerated over time from what was a pole-balancing trick. Then there were hoax photos and the myth was perpetuated. Scholars have increasingly recognised the historical, political, and cultural importance of how the West has constructed an image of the East (Said, 1978; Inden, 1990; Breckenridge & Van der Veer, 1993; Clarke, 1997; Chatterjee, 1998; King, 1999). While they have considered the theme of India as a mystical land, they have virtually ignored the role of reported anomalous phenomena in India. Yet such phenomena were central to how India was viewed by the British a century ago, when they were by far the dominant Western influence in the sub- continent, and they continue to shape how the West views India today. This paper describes how India came to be seen in Britain as a land in which anomalous phenomena occur. Tales from India of anomalous phenomena date back several centuries, but it was not until the nineteenth century that they became widely read in Britain. Contemporary reports of phenomena also appeared throughout the nineteenth century and, in the last quarter of the century, Western conjurors began to publicly expose the methods of Indian magicians in an attempt to show that their feats were mere trickery. This was not, as might be expected, a response to the influence of either the Theosophical Society or the legend of the Indian rope trick. Rather, the suggested growing belief that Indian magic was genuine seems to have emerged from contemporary comparisons between seance phenomena and feats of Indian magic. On the one hand, the methodological link with the Davenport brothers was rejected by spiritualists, who framed much of Indian jugglery as genuine and comparable to seance phenomena. The mainstream periodical press, on the other hand, used Indian jugglery as a debunking tool, framing it as superior trickery to that used by mediums. The Theosophical Society emerged from Blavatsky's involvement with spiritualism, an interest sparked by D. D. Home, though the latter showed nothing but scepticism towards the phenomena associated with Theosophy, and was later cited in the mainstream press as part of an attempt to debunk Indian juggling. The modern legend of the Indian rope trick did not become widespread until the last years of the century, but its roots can be found in the early writings of the Theosophical Society and the broader discussion that surrounded seance phenomena.Victorian spiritualism can therefore be seen not only as the precursor to psychical research and modern parapsychology, but as a source of widespread cultural attitudes towards the East that remain to this day. (1) Excluding "dicussions." http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wes Amerman" wrote: > Brian/Brigitte, > > > > I've really had enough. First of all, you refused to discuss any idea > seriously with me, and completely ignored my questions and comments, weeks > and months ago, about the shortcomings of modern science and the gaps in its > approach to evolution and consciousness. All you seem to want to do is > bash Theosophy and any attempt to defend it, all the while quoting from > secondary sources who share your derogatory views. Seldom, if ever, do you > cite the source Theosophy which you claim is faulty. And, when someone > (Daniel, Dallas or Leon, for example) quotes Blavatsky or someone who > supports her to show another side to the matter, you put them down and > attack them personally, as you most recently did by saying Daniel has "no > credentials!" > > Why not just take an IDEA to task? I don't mean a secondary, latter day > student's interpretation, well-known or not, but a bona fide idea from > Blavatsky or her Teachers? If you disagree with Theosophy, why not have the > courage to discuss the central ideas: spiritual evolution, karma, > reincarnation, etc. and their relationships to human lives, needs and > aspirations today? Instead, you criticize the more abstruse and difficult > concepts (such as rounds and races, of which you have absolutely NO clue), > and then garble and misinterpret them to make it seem that they support the > most heinous of UN-brotherly sentiments and actions! > > intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up , > see below.> > < obviously expert person, a voice. > > As far as Mr. Goswhami [sic] goes, I don't know nor could care less what his > credentials might be -- as if he were some sort of authority on Blavatsky! > Daniel provided the following timely quote from Mr. Goswami, which should > make it abundantly clear that the latter has absolutely no idea what > Theosophy is about: > > "H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophists and early Aryanists made Sri > Lanka one of their world headquarters for exporting their militant > atheism. Aryosophist esotericism in Britain and Germany became > pervaded with Theravadin Buddhist thought. This 'Aryanism' doctrine > of voidism and related moral relativism eventually became central to > the conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich. Theravadin > Buddhist voidism has not been a benevolent force in history ! . ." > > There is so much mere assertion, misinformation and innuendo contained just > in this first paragraph that I hardly know where to start -- What, for > example, is Theosophy's "militant atheism?" Blavatsky fought, to be sure, > against dogmatic religion and religious hypocrisy, but to accuse her of > "atheism" is the height of ignorance. What is the value of such contrived > phrases as "Aryosophist esotericism," "voidism" and "related moral > relativism?" On the surface or to the uneducated, they might sound > learned, but they reek of academic bullshit. This conclusion is supported > by the next sentence, that these ideas "eventually became central to the > conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich."!!!!!!!! What crap, Brian. > And you have the temerity to bring this man forward on this list and promote > him as an "authority" on Theosophy and Blavatsky???? I'm sure anyone who > has ever read Blavatsky with half an eye open could find ample references in > her writings to refute this garbage. One line from Blavatsky should suffice > as a start: "Theosophy is altruism, and we cannot repeat it too often." > And have you ever read the first object of the Theosophical Society: "To > form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction > of race, color or creed?" [Key to Theosophy, p 39] > > Just what is your purpose in "contributing" to this list? To prove that > there are "experts" in academia who share your views? To dissuade inquirers > from looking into Theosophy? To attack your least favorite historical > personages and hope that others will come to share your biases? > > Best Regards, > Wes Amerman From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 04:59:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 12:59:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 75101 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 12:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 12:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 12:59:34 -0000 Received: from pool0189.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.189] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Cg4F-0004iu-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:59:28 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:55:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <008b01c28bf8$8b3d5d00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Friend: "Dead letter" is always opinionated. Yet we can express our understanding of a fact or truth in no other way. Our exchange of views if tolerated and used with each other ought to lead us to a deeper understanding of truth. And conversely, if we are attentive, lead us to grasp what aspect of our own capacity to understand is limited as compared to that of others. In other words we can all profit from each other, and yet, we will always make our own independent decisions thereafter. We have to extend ourselves to include (not to exclude) others' views. That is brotherhood in action. Best wishes, Dallas ====================== -----Original Message----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:12 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K Hi Dallas and all of you, I will have to suggest, that the issue of avoiding "dead-letter" reading and living would be given more importance, when one just throws - numbers on cycles out to the more or less public eyes. Allright or ? from M. Sufilight with a hovering attitude...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K > Nov 14 2002 > > Dear Friends: > > The enclosed gives a general survey of persons, societies etc... on > which Theosophy has had an impact or which served as the vehicles for > Theosophical thought in the past. If one looks closely the cycles of > thought can be traced. > > It is incomplete and is being modified or added constantly > > If you have any suggestions > > Thanks, > > Dallas > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > From: dalval14@earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:20 AM > To: blavatsky.net Study > Subject: FW: [bn-study] Cycles and Evolution L K > > > A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY > __________ > > > Note > > This is an attempt to place events and personages within various > accepted and Theosophical time-frames. It is hoped that it will help > in observing evidence of the Wise Men and Sage Adepts of the past at > work. > > It will help the compilers if you would contribute any corrections or > additions to this growing project, as a result of your own study and > use of this list. > > Most time references are based on the periods that HPB has given us > in either Isis or The S.D., or in her articles. This is under active > completion and verification, hence, you will be asked to > excuse some errors that will be found, and invited to draw the > attention of the compilers to corrective facts. > > Verifying dates have occasionally been secured from Encyclopedia > Britannica and other sources, and those have been added to those > secured from Theosophical sources. If uncertain : c / ? . > > _______________________________ > > Abbreviations used: > > IS = Isis Unveiled Glos = Theosophical > Glossary > SD = The Secret Doctrine T = Theosophy > Magazine (LA) > Key = Key to Theosophy Theos't = Theosophist > (Adyar) > Lucif= Lucifer Magazine Path = The Path > (New York) > ML = Mahatma Letters T M = Theos. > Movement (Bombay) > Ocean= Ocean of Theosophy HPB Art = Collected HPB Articles > CWB = Collected Works HPB WQJ Art = Collected WQJ Articles > > > =========================================================== > > A THEOSOPHICAL VIEW OF CHRONOLOGY > > Introduction > > > The sub-title given to this survey indicates the attention that H. P. > Blavatsky paid to the historical, factual aspect, of the records of > the Adepts. ( SD I 272 ) > > One of the factors faced in the effort to redirect a vision of the > scope of time past is the tendency, inherited from theological views > in the West, which tend to foreshorten history and dwarf the periods > of evolution that are a part of the lore of ancient nations especially > in the East, in their estimates or records concerning pre-historical > eras and epochs, and events which they recorded. > > This present list considers time periods given in records preserved by > the Great Lodge of Adepts, from which HPB gives fragments of data > relating to vast achievements in the Past--and records or reports of > its arts, sciences, technologies, buildings, chronologies, astronomy, > and a thousand other indications, which tend to show that we are, in > our present whirl of research, retracing the patterns of that past, > and adding to the testimony that increasingly validates it. > > Students of Theosophy take into account certain foundational concepts, > such as :-- > > 1. Reincarnation: that we are essentially in our spiritual, > natures, > immortals, and have lived many lives on this Earth;. We were present > in the ancient civilizations. > > 2. that Karma, the law of justice and of fairness to all > beings (from > the atom to Galaxy) is The Law for every aspect of the Universe; and > that it consists of an harmonic balance at all points; so that all > present circumstances can be traced to choices made earlier; > > 3. the ideal of Human Brotherhood is not a myth but a solid > fact > based on the common immortality of the Spiritual Person presiding in > each of us, and, as science and psychology demonstrate daily that we > share in each other, as in all aspects of Nature; and finally, > > 4. There is an actual, a Universal All--an Encompassing Unity > (or > Causation), which forms the living and sensitive base for all > evolution and all individual consciousness. > > A factor that serves to make the Universe, evolution, and man's > independence valuable, is the fact that it is, in reality, a vast > school. Every being (from the imponderable atom to the utmost reaches > of Space, is an entity, an immortal and conscious "something" (perhaps > a "pupil" of more or less advancement in the vast scheme. It is an > index of the intelligence that is innate in every life-atom that makes > cooperation with every other being possible, e.g., we could consider > cellular cooperation in our body, where some 100 trillion cells (made > up of an incredible amount of atoms and molecules) coordinate to give > us a physical basis of life and consciousness. > > The objects of the Theosophical Movement are:-- > > 1. To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity > without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color; > > 2. The study of ancient and modern religions, philosophies and > sciences and the demonstration of the importance of such > study; and > > 3. The investigation of the unexplained laws of Nature and the > psychical powers latent in man. > ___________________________________ > > > C H R O N O L O G Y > > ================================================== > Year Groups or Tribes Notes and References > From To or Individuals > ================================================== > > Universal and World Periods SD II 69-70 OCEAN 125 > _____________________________ > > > 311,040,000 000 000 years = Maha Kalpa, or Life of Brahma > (100 of Brahma's years) > [311 trillion, 40 billion] SD II > 70 > > 3,110,400,000,000 years = 1 Year of Brahma SD II 70 > [ 3 trillion, 110 billion ] > > 8,640,000,000 years = 1 Day + 1 Night of Brahma > > 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa = l Day of Brahma or > 1,000 Maha-Yugas SD II 69 > or 14 Manus SD II 59-60 > [ see The Theosophist, Nov., 1885, p. 115-6; ] > > > 1 Day of Brahma = 4,294,080,000 years = 994 Maha-Yugas or > 14 Manus > > add 25,920,000 years = 1 Sandhi (twilight) SD II > 308fn > _____________________ > 4,320,000,000 years = 1 Kalpa or 1 Day of Brahma > (4 billion, 320 million) SD II 69-70 > > 1 Manvantara = 306,720,000 years = 71 Maha Yugas > of 4,320,000 years > > add 1,728,000 years = 1 Sandhi > SD > II 69 > ____________________ > 308,448,000 years = 1 Manvantara SD II > 69 > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > 4 Yugas [ The 4 "Ages" ] .[Hindu Astronomy] SD II 69 > ML p. 121, IS > I 32 > > 1,728,000 years = Krita (or Satya, or Golden Age-Yuga) > > 1,296,000 years = Treta (or Silver Age--Yuga ) > > 864,000 years = Dwapara ( or Bronze Age--Yuga ) > > 432,000 years - Kali ( or Black, Iron Age--Yuga ) > __________________ > 4,320,000 years = 1 Maha Yuga - or 1/1000th of Brahma's day > SD II 69; HPB III 422; Lucif XIII, 183-4 > > ============================== > > Chaldean Cycles . . . . . IS I 30 fn > > [ Berosus, Priest of the temple of Belus, Babylon ] > > 3,600 years = 1 Sar (or Saros ) > IS I 21, 30, 34, 533 II 467, Path X 301 > > 600 years = 1 Neros > > 60 years = 1 Sossus > > Berosus, Temple of Belus, Babylon IS I 30 fn > SD II 38 331 432 566; > SD I 114 314 389 435 649 655fn > Glos. 108 291 (Sar) 225 258 > > Solar or Heliacal Year 25,868 years SD I 314; Ocean 121 > ( 1 Sub-race ) > > > Metonic Moon Cycle 6,586 days = cycle of eclipses ( or revolution > = 18 yrs.11 1/2 day - the moon's node > [a cycle of 6,585 days (18.041 years) > > Grand Cycles > Orpheus: 120,000 years IS I 294 fn > Cassandrus 136,000 years IS I 294 fn > > > ====================================== > > > Our Earth > > 1,955,884,687 years (in 1887) from the beginning of > "cosmic evolution" SD II > 68 > - 300,000,000 Years as a Sandhi (twilight) > ______________ > 1,664,884,687 years (in 1887) from the first > appearance of "Humanity" (on this planetary > chain) as a physical form SD II 68 > > > ====================================== > > > B. C. > > LODGE OF ADEPTS Is II 98-103 S D I 272-3 > > 18,618,727 Lighting up of Manas [ mind ] (as in 1887) > SD I 150fn; SD II 69 254-5 > > 4,000,000 c. Engulfing of Lemuria (e.g.:--Easter Island) > SD I 439 > [4th Round, 4th Globe, 3rd "Race"] > > > Easter Island - SD I 322 439 II 224 317 > > Atlantis [ Titans / Kabiri / Cyclops ] > [4th Round, 4th Globe, 4th "Race"] > > 1,050,000 Beginning of the 5th "Race" SD II 141144 435 > > Vedas SD I 269-71 II 483-4 450 606 616 > T M 5-67 Glos 361 IS I 444 THY 2-468 > Theos't I-247 COL I TOP. WQJ ART II 82-3 Theos't > 9-428 > > Vedanta SD I 7 50-1 269 451 Glos 361 253 > > (Uttara Mimansa - Vyasa) > Theos't I-201 287 9-411; Lucif 6-119 > > Advaita (non-dualistic) SD I 8 55 522 II 637 GLOS 7 > (Shankaracharya - founder) ML 53-4 > Theos't 10-7; Glos 307 > Dwaita (dualistic) > > Manu Smriti (Code of Manu from Krita Yuga) IS I 585-6 > > > 1,000,000 Aryan Race began SD II 395 Theosophy V. 45, p. 219 > > Brahmin invasion of Northern India Is II 156fn 169 158 > Is II 323 192 SD I 209 > II 565 Glos 222 > > Persians, Turanians, Goths, Slavs Is. I 569-576 II 426-433 > > > > c. 1,000,000 - 500,000 B C > > > 998,100 Cataclysms: Atlantis begins sinking SD II 141 > Is I 557 593 SD II 10 144 Glos 42-3 > > 869,000 Dwapara Yuga Commencement (since 1888) SD II 147 > ( Kali-Yuga began 3,102 BC ) > > 850,000 Since submergence of last large peninsula of > the Great Atlantis SD II > 10 > > 850,000 Glacial Period est. by Stockwell & Croll SD II 141 144 > > 800,000 Angkor Wat built (2nd most Occult Edifice) Glos 223 > Is I 239 561-8 271-2 > > > 500,000 - 250,000 B C > > > 470,000 Babylon's astronomical observations said to go back to > this period > Nebo or Birs Nimrud, BCW 13-274 Isis I 533 > > 450,000 Epoch of Ramayana (Brahmin estimate) C & J p. 73 > Theos't Vol. 10-35 SD II 496 IS II 278 Glos > 275 > > 400,000 Egypt was settled by the Atlanteans and the Eastern > AEtheopeans SD II 750 > > > 250,000 - 100,000 B C > > > 250,000 + Last Glaciation of Europe Isis I 3 > > Pyramids were 3 times submerged SD I 313 424 > 617 > S D II 462-6 575 435 749-50 351-3 351-2 93 276fn > 429 462; GL 223 300; IS I 154 239 296-7 517-21 > THEOSOPHY Vol. 67-p.54 > > > Sphinx (Harmachus) SD II 124 618 Glos 135-6 Is I 573 > > 200,000 Chaldean Astronomical Observations extended back at the > time of Alexander's invasion Berosus SD I xxvi > > 200,000 Stockwell & Croll of last Glaciation SD II 141-4 > > > > 100,000 - 30,000 B C > > > > 78,000 + Denderah Zodiac [Egyptians brought from Lanka - Menes ] > SD II 374fn 431-6 456 577 580; IS I 440-1 > > 49,186 Egyptian Records go back to ( Diogenes Laertius ) > by 8,863 yrs. in 323 BC IS I 33 > > 34,300 Sumerian Tablet gives 32,234 yrs between Deluge > and last king of Isin c.200 BC Thy > 16, p.195 > > > 30,000 - 10,000 B C > > > 29,217 Alpha Polaris (Dhruva) (as Pole Star) (in 1888) > 31,105 yrs ago Glos. 17 > > 15,194 Zodiac Originated 1st degree of Aries ( Ram ) > > 15,086 Vernal Equinox and 1st degree of Libra coincided > ( 16,984 yrs ago in 1888 ) S D I 658 > > 12,300 Vyasa - Uttara Mimansa and Vedanta taught Isis II 621 > "Bhadarayana" SD I 50 269 451 Glos 361 > > 11,100 Vega (Alpha Lyrae was Pole Star Thy 17- p. 18 > > > > 10,000 - 6,000 B C > > > 9,566 Deluge of Deucalion. Last Island of Atlantis ML p. 155 > submerged. Last war between the 5 YRS OF THY 99fn > "Sons of God" of the "White Island" and SD II 406 > 444fn > the last Atlantean sorcerers ISIS I 589-594 > > 9,500 Atlantis - Last Island sank Timaeus"- Plato as narrated > by Priests of Sais to Solon TM 46-469 > > 8,000 Hindu Initiates had same Secret Philosophy then > as now (estimate) SD II 406 IS II 535 > > 8,000 Tchandalas begin to emigrate from India to Chaldea > SD II 200 Glos 323 165 IS I 135 551-2 578 > Isis II 438-9 SD I 313fn > > 7,975 End of the last Sidereal Year Ocean 129 SD I 649-50 > (9,868 yrs. before 1893) SD II 314 331 432 470 > > 6,500 c Zarathustra (6,000 yrs. before Plato c 400 BC) Gl 384-5 > IS I 19 II 141 SD I 464 II 323 Theos't I-135 > Thy 14-97 > [Zoroaster was a Title - 24 Zoroasters. The last > Zoroaster > (Guru-astera or Star Guru) was a contemporary > of Gautama Buddha. c. 600 BC ] > > > > 6,000 - 4,000 B C > > > 6,000/5,000 Trojan War nearer 6,000 than 5,000 BC S D II 37fn > Thy 27-103 IS I 520 598 Glos 96 (Dardanus) > SD II 101 236 440 > > 5,100 Neith (1st Dynasty) Egypt Lucif 2-465 SD I 399 > Glos 77 227 234 > > 4,100 c Manu-Vina (Menes) to Masra (Cairo) IS I 627 516 > SD II 335 374 431-2 436 746; Thy 15, 317 > > > > 4,000 - 3,000 B C > > > 3750 Sargon I reigned (Prof. A.H.Sayce) SD II 691 > > 3,700 Local Deluge in Middle East S D II 691 > > 3,200 c Date assigned to last Veda Vyasa by > the Brahmins. [Vyasa is a title.] Glos 362 > > 3,080 c Arjuna to Patala ( marries Ulupi ) SD II 214fn > [ Orphean Mysteries ] Glos 29 > ("Patala" = Mexico ) Thy 15, 546 IS II 561fn > > 3,100 c Orpheus identified with Arjuna Thy 27, 148 Glos 242 > (On travel to Patala, stops in Greece) > HPB ART III 138 IS I 532 II 129 550 > SD I 207 267fn 529 784 Lucif 16-273 > Theos't 5-20 Col 2 Bot, > > "Mysteries of Orpheus" established in Greece > > > 3,102 KRISHNA'S DEATH (18 Feb. 3,102 BC) Glos 170 387 > [ midnight 17/18 ] Thy. I-p. 374; IV-p. > 37 > > 3,102 Kali Yuga began Feb. 16, AM: 2 Hrs, 27 Min, 30 Sec. > [only precise time given in S D] > SD I 662 SD II 147 fn > > 3,102 Hindu Zodiac Begins at sunrise Feb 18th SD I 662 > ( origin of present Hindu era: "Vikram Samvat" > and Zodiac, Tiravalour, So.India ) > > 3,100 c Vikramaditya rules at Ujjain ("Vikram Samvat") SD I 662 > [ begins at Sunrise, February 18th 3,102 B C ] > > 3,100 c Fu - H'si ( Krishna of China ) Thy 14- 308 > > Po - H'si ( 1st Ruler of China) Thy > 14- 1 > > 3,100 c. Dwaraka (Gujerat, Kathiawar) submerged. > End of Yadus, Krishna' race Glos 374 > > > > 3,000 - 2,000 B C > > > 3,000 c Gilgamesh epic "Flood" of Jewish Bible Thy 16, 307 > > 2,875 c Akkadians (Semites) overrun Sumer Sargon IS I 576-78 > > 2,800 c Yi-King (Chinese Kabala in dialect of Akkadians) > Thy 25-444 > > 2,700 Hwang-Ti 3rd ruler after Po-H'si Thy 15-19 Thy 14-310 > > Babylon & Assyria Glos 47 37 IS I 567 ML 152 > THY 16-194 307 > > 2,253 Chaldean Astronomical Observations for past 1903 years > Calliosthenes to Aristotle (c 350 BC) IS I 21 > > Kasidim Glos 75 81 39 196 IS I xxviii 534 459 567 > HPB Art III 134 ML 152 CWB 5-13 326-8 SD II 620 > > 2,200 c Shu-King and Shi-King (China) Thy 14-310 IS I 11 > > Hammurabi (Code) Babylon Thy 16-196 > > 2,000 c Sumeria old texts with interlinear Semitic Thy 16-194 > translations Thy 21-414 > > > > 2,000 - 1,000 B C > > > 1,925 c Hittites capture Babylon IS I 567-8 > > 1,850 c Chung-Ki (China ) Thy 14-34 > > 1,700 c Knossos (Crete) at its height ISIS I 264 545 > [ c 3,000 BC - 1,400 BC ] > > 1,628 Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) > [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] > [ End of Minoan Civilization, and tidal waves > overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] > > 1,600 c Achaeans to Crete destruction of Knossos dynasty > Thera-Santorini volcano explodes > > 1,600 c Hyksos ( Semites ) overran Egypt IS I 569-70 > > 1,500 c Arameans over-ran Mesopotamia IS I 579 > > Phoenicians ( Semites ) IS I 569 567 572 545 > > 1,573 Moses born SD II 539 691 MOD PAN 45 HPB III 244 > IS I 3 555 SD I 320fn 385 > IS II 428 456 65 691 129 I 25 > > 1,447 Aries in its 15th degree SD II 436 fn SD I 658 > > 1,350 c Tutankhamen XVIII Dynasty (son-in-law of Ikhnaton) > Aton replaced Amon-Ra -- Thebes-capital of > Egypt > > 1,225 c Rameses II ( restored Karnak & many monuments ) > > Greeks: Aeolians Ionians Dorians Achaeans > > Scythians from central Asia begin invading Russia > Khazaks (in 8th Cent. identified with Jews ) > > 1,250 Sanchoniathon compiled religious writings SD II 440fn > IS I 234 341-2 577-8 II 260 275 > SD II 129 440 Glos 289 > > > > > 1,000 - 900 B C > > > 1,000 c Aztecs to Central America S D II 445 Thy 16, 70-1 > > 974-937 Solomon IS I 135 II 391 ML 345 SD II 591 M Pan 45-6 > > 970-936 Hiram I at Tyre (Phoenician Jews ) IS I 19 135 566-8 > > 945 Conjunction of all the Planets except Saturn SD II 63 > (Note: also great conj. in 1957, 1965-7 & Sun's > Eclipse ) > 900 c Inca Kings records begin Thy 16-25 Glos 154 > HPB Art III 428 IS I 595-8 > > 814 Founding of Carthage by Phoenicians in flight from Joshua, > son of Nun IS I 520 560 567 II 546 > > > > 700 - 600 B C > > > 8 Cent c Hesiod Poet - no certainty on, later than > Homer > Ascribed to him: Theogony > Shield of Heracles > Preserved Myths > SD I 425 648 II 450 603 764fn 775 IS I 558 567 > > 636c-546c Thales (Greece) Glos 326 IS I 24 512 526 > > Miletus - founder of Milesian School of philosophy > Matter was one: water - no writings extant > Taught geometry and astronomy - a Phoenician > Said learned from Babylonians and Egyptians > Predicted Sun eclipse of 585 B C - polytheist > one of the 7 Wise Men of Greece > > Egypt over-ran by Scyths, Assyrians, Medes, Cimmerians > > Hermetic Philosophy & Mysteries transferred > from Egypt to Greece Glos 140 219 Thy 27 196 > > > 700-600 B C > > MYSTERIES OF GREECE [ General Survey ] > > > Mysteries moved to Greece from Egypt Glos 219 140 > > Pythoness IS I xxxv-viii 358 531; II 590; Glos 266 > > Delphos (Mysteries of Apollo) Glos 267 295 > > Eleusis Thy 27, 149-152 532; Glos 112 > IS II 44 98 131 138 145 IS I xii HPB Art I 18 > Mod Pan 134-5 > > Ephesus Glos 114 27; IS II 155; Thy 28, 7 > > Samothrace IS I 132 234 302 570 23 > Glos 287 > > Sodales (and Sodalean Oath) IS I 301 555 > IS II 131 SD II 212; Glos 302 > > 1st Cent c Therapeutae ( Pythagoreans) Key, 5 72; IS I 19; > Glos 329 > > Theurgy Key 3; T M 18-148-151; IS I xlii; Gl 329 > > Corybantes SD II 106 I 400 Glos 47 43 88 92 > > Kybele Glos 182 > > Dactyli-Priests of Kybele IS I xxviii Glos 93 > > Dionysos ( Dio-Nysos ) Apollo Glos 102 47 97 > (similar to Osiris) - Sun IS I xiv > Mithras, Bacchus superseded IS II 165 491 560 > > Ceres Demeter Thy 39, 493; Glos 308 > > Persephone (Proserpina) > > 3,100 Orpheus (see 3,100 B C) IS II 35 129; > THY 25-58, 27-148; GLOS 242 219 > SD I 336 fn II 756; T M 18-181; > > > > 700 - 600 B C > > > 677 Phoenicia destroyed by Assyrians and Macedonians > Sea-faring Jews/Semites -founded Carthage, > emigrated to Spain, and North African Sea-Ports > > 639-559c Solon SD II 263 743 THY 27, 104 530 > {Re: Atlantis from Egyptian Saitic priests-- see > Plato's Timaeus ] > > Athenian Statesman founder of its "democracy" > Giver of laws and a reformer, also a poet > Restored freedom to peasants, curbed nobility > Unlawful to pledge one's liberty - > annulled all mortgages and debt - > established juries > Made an Archon in 594 BC - wrote constitution > > c Patanjali (founder of Yoga Philosophy) Glos 251 380 > Established a School on Indian Psychology > Mediation and deeper states discussed > Goal of human evolution explained > > c Panini (grammarian - codified Sanskrit) Glos 248 251 > > c Mahavira (Jain Saint) Ths't 6-95 SD II 423 IS II 322 > Last of 24 Tirthankaras HPB TO APS 242 Glos 335 > > 673 BC Assurbanipal Great Library in Babylon Glos 37 > > Pherecydes ( teacher of Pythagoras ) CWB 13-283-4 > > Nineveh and Babylon at their height SD II 692 IS I 403 > > Western Europe overran by Celts, Germans, Slavs > Glos 105 239 > > Druids (Bhrigu) Glos 57 IS I 18 576 > > 628-551c Zoroaster (latest) Thy 6-23 Thy 14-97 149 212 264 > > 621-543 Buddha: Gautama Sidartha Glos 65-6 126 286 > ML 43 96 78 SD II 423 I 161-2 THS'T 5-39 > HPB TO APS 242-3 T M 15-105 VOICE 78fn > T M 7-27 > > 611c-547c Anaximander b. Miletus - pupil of Thales > Detailed explanation of all Nature - wrote > Space as origin of all - pairs of opposites > Eternal motion, churning of space into opposites > Plurality of worlds - evolution of man's body > from fish in water > Astronomer defined solstices and equinoxes > Gonom for measuring Sun's direction and height > > 604- c Lao Tse Glos 186 320 SD I xxv Thy 15-18 70 Thy 20-51 > > > 600 - 500 B C > > > [6 Cent] Anaximenes b. Miletus - pupil of Anaximander > Proposed air as basic principle in Nature > relates to Space and its nature > Stars move around the earth > "Gods" arose from the "air." > > > 586-500 Pythagoras (Crotona) Thy 27-244 70-365 71- 16, Glos 266 > IS I 12 532 347fn xvi 7 9 291 181 338 Lucif IV > IS II 144-5 338 452 491fn HPB ART I 431 439 > BCW 13-283 Path 1 39 Trans. 106 T M 37-467 > > 570-480 c Xenophanes . . . . . IS II 212 242 > > > > Manticism (Prophetic frenzy - Melampus > and Proteus) Glos 205 > > 550-478 Confucius Glos 82 186 SD Ixxv 162 186 320 440 > Thy 14, 395 351 Thy 14-395 Mod Pen 43 > > 535c-475c Heraclitus of Ephesus (a Milesian) Thy 27 196 > No permanent reality except universal change. > Permanence an illusion of the senses. > Duality of contrast was eternal - death and life > balanced each other > Becoming, the only state, because it was > transitional. > Taught fire to be the substratum of the Universe > Man's soul was shared, ray of the Universal Soul. > > Ananda (Pupil of Gautama Siddartha Buddha ) > > Katyayana (Buddha's pupil) Glos 2-3 > > Rishi Gautama (Jain Tirthankara) > [Nyaya philos.] Glos 253 > > Gaudapadacharya (Shankara's Paraguru) SD I 457fn > > 514c- Parminedes (Eleatic School materialism) IS I 24 > Demanded reasoned proof for assertions > Being is the material substance of what the > Universe is composed - called it the sole > eternal reality. > All else is illusion because of change, motion, > no "empty space." > > 521- Cambyses of Persia - conquered Egypt Thy 27, 244 > (took Pythagoras to Babylon, Assyria) > > 525-456 Aeschulus (70 dramas / tragedies) Thy 27, 532 > > Aryasangha ( Disciple of Buddha ) Glos 32 > (Mahayana School) > > > 500 - 400 B C > > > -4th Cent. Druids of Gaul, Britain [ till conversion of > Constantine to Christianity > - Edict issued to forcibly convert all in > Roman empire to Christianity ] > > 521-485 Darius I invaded Greece > > 510 Mysteries opened to those who could pay a fee forcing > degradation. (Neo-Platonists restored 200 AD) > Thy 27-147 Thy 28-3 > > 500-432 c Phidias (Sculpture - Jupiter Athena, Parthenon ) > > 510- Shankaracharya (Reincarn of Buddha Gautama to reform > Brahmins.) > Worked in So. India. Smarthava sect. > Adwaita (non-dualist) philos. Glos 307 288 > SD I 86 271 457fn LUCIFER 4-387 Theos't 5-7 > BCW 12-346fn > > 500-428 c Anaxagoras (friend of Socrates) Glos 21 > > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > 4th c Serapis ( worship of, in Egypt) Thy 25- 203 > > =================== > > PLATONIC ACADEMY > > > 428-348 Plato Glos 256; SD II 395 554; Thu 27, 434 483 > IS II 100 338; SD I 162; > > PLATONIC ACADEMY started > > 469-399 Socrates HPB ART I 17f THY 27-387; IS II 117-8 > > 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Academy) HPB Art I 12 > > 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; > Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; > HPB ART Vol. I 16 19; SD I 615; > Glos 73 256 227 384 SD II 153; > ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) > > 484-424 Herodotus (history) > > 432 c Meton (astronomy) Lunar cycle 19 years - of phases > > 460 c Ezra (compiled Pentateuch) SD II 143 IS I 568 578 > IS II 128 HPB Art III 245 Thy 25-10 Glos 117 > > 460-357 Hippocrates (healer) IS I xxxvii 425-6; GLOS 142 > Thy 22, 101; Thy 39, 405 > > Philolaus (Discip. of Pythagoras, math. & codified) > > 490-430 Empidocles > > 460-370 c Democritus (maths, Physics, atom, ) Thy 27, 35 > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > c Leucippus (taught Democritus) IS I 61 > > c Quetzal Coatl Thy 16-113; Thy 16-70-2 > > 485-406 Euripides (Drama) Thy 27-531; Thy 24-496 > > 430-355 c Xenophon (pupil of Socrates ) > > 490-429 Pericles (Social and political reform) > > 448-380 Aristophanes (comedies) > > 495-406 Sophocles (drama & poetry) > > Theucidides > > 408-355 c Eudoxus (astronomer, Math. physician) > > > > 400 - 300 B C > > > Hem-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-161 > > Chwang-Tzu (Disciple. of Lao-Tzu) Thy 15-213 > > 331 Alexandria founded Thy 25-6; Thy 27-33; Glos 54 > > 356-323 Berosus (Chaldean) Glos 54-5 > > 356-323 Alexander "The Great" Conquests frontiers of India - > to Indus > > 384-322 Aristotle IS I xv 16 320 429-30 615; II 34; > Thy 25-10-11 HPB Art II 159-60; I 16 > 19; > Glos 73 256 227 384, SD II 153; SD I 615; > ( Pupil of Plato, Tutor of Alexander ) > > > 300 - 200 B C > > STOICS > > 340-265 Zeno (founded Stoic Philosophers) > > 300 c Euclid (systematic geometry ) > > 323-283 Ptolemy I (Soter) Glos 16; Thy 25 p 6 > Alexandrian Library -- 700,000 Rolls > SD I 353 659-60 664 IS I 21 > > 396-314 Xenocrates (Pupil of Plato) Thy 5, 104 164 > > 347-339 Speusippus (Pres. of Plato's Academy) HPB Art I 12 > > Heraclides > > "Buddhism in India" (article) Thy 12, 506 > > 371-288 c Mencius Thy 15, 113 > > > > 300 - 200 B C > > > "Shu-King" (china) Thy 14, 310 > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 05:00:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 13:00:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 19117 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 13:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 13:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 13:00:44 -0000 Received: from pool0189.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.189] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Cg5P-0004iu-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 05:00:40 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Reincarnation and Consciousness Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:56:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2002 Dear Bart and Mic: May I interject some ideas on this subject? See if they are acceptable to you.? Physiological heredity according to theosophy is represented by the assembly of "Monads of lesser experience" at the point and cycle of the reincarnating Monad that uses and instructs them through its own experiences and choices. It is all according to Karma and is the result of it. I found that reading the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) on this subject, it gives a very clear view of the subject. Heredity (under Karma) only represents the increments in intelligence in the physical vehicle -- or physical bodies. [What we call "races" today, are not the "Theosophical Races." All races of mankind, anywhere present the incarnating Egos with an environment, karmically suited to their own maturation and need for experience -- also, the field where their past Karma can manifest.] A group of Egos which are consubstantial in terms of character and abilities, are included in this, as these "physical races" arise, mature, and then when no longer useful as vehicles, they "die out," and the Egos (immortal Monads) that used those bodies reincarnate elsewhere where the heredity and the needed physical bodies are consubstantial with their increasing development.] The whole process is most exactly put into operation by the great Law of Karma which rules the worlds and ourselves. Consciousness is the basis for the increments in intelligence is the Spiritual Soul ( Buddhi-Manas or, the development of the WISE - MIND marked by discrimination ) this will be found to include the third element the Psychic personality with its multitude of desires, likes and dislikes, and essential selfishness. Let me add: As I have studied, and have drawn out of studying Theosophy, the reincarnation process involves not only the immortal triple MONAD (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) which is assisting the PERSONALITY (Lower Manas) to universalize and SPIRITUALIZE itself, but also, it involves all the "Monads of lesser experience" which make up in one way or the other the "lower vehicles" of all Monads that are undergoing evolution. We, as human beings [Free and independent MINDS] have used the bodies provided by many "races," incarnation after incarnation in the past, and will also proceed to do this in the future. This is Nature's process and it provides equity, as well as opportunity, for all. Theosophy states that all Intelligence and Consciousness is permanent and ever-lasting. It therefore starts consideration of evolution with the IDEAL of PERFECTION. It looks on the Human Being as a miniature Universe. 1. The ABSOLUTE ever IS and changes not at all. It cannot be described, but we sense it as an eternal background. Hence, metaphysically, all beings are said to not only be "in it," but to have evolved out of a portion of its being. It is the ONE EXISTENCE. We are its intelligent and developing fragments. Periodically under cyclic law it sees the emanation of periods of evolution (Manvantaras), and then on the expiry of that effort a period of rest (Pralaya) sets in. 2. In the cycles of evolution and manifestation it radiates what we call SPIRIT. It is, in fact, not your, nor my spirit, but the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT, a "ray" of which takes up residence in each MONAD as the eternal ATMA.. In the periods of Evolution / Manifestation, the counterpart (opposite pole) to SPIRIT in the Monad is MATTER in its purest, most refined form. The Monad in evolution, is actually Buddhi, as SPIRIT is not individual but UNIVERSAL and IMPERSONAL. [ However the Monad is also represented as being the conjoined trinity of SPIRIT (Atma), BUDDHI (wisdom) and MANAS (universal Mind -- a "ray" of which is embedded in each monad as MIND -- a portion of the UNIVERSAL MIND -- to serve as a living medium of communication between SPIRIT and MATTER) ] 3. BUDDHI. -- Similes for this PURE SUBSTANCE are WISDOM, and DISCRIMINATION (in the matter of ethics and morality). Wisdom demands an ever-present attention to the moral implications of choice. Law rules the Universe. Those choices that are made in harmony (as universal and impersonal) with the LAW, are deemed "fit and proper." They do not attract Karma, (or the operation of Nature to restore disturbed harmony). One of our tasks is to identify all the Laws of Nature, and then trace their interaction through every plane and to every being which lives under their rule. Once we are satisfied that this Living WHOLE -- NATURE -- has been sensitively and entirely constructed so as to be inevitably involved in any choice made by any one, we can begin to understand the complexity of choosing to act "for and as the SELF of all creatures" -- and to live impersonally and universally even though we are encapsulated in limited physical bodies. Those "bodies" we use here and now are miniature Universes and our Egos represent to the host of "Monads of lesser experience" their ruling Deity, that which enables them, each in their own place to rise higher in their own position, always acquiring greater intelligence. Actions performed with a self-directed motive are deemed to attract Karma, which is the reaction of the Universe to adjust any selfishness, through experiencing its consequences, to the ideals of practical unselfishness and universality, as a basis for choice. 4. MANAS (the Mind) This "Triple Unity" is universal and involves forms, on an ascending scale of intelligence, from material physical body, astral body , life-energy, psychic nature (Kama), mental (or Lower Manasic), Higher Manasic, and finally of Buddhi-WISDOM (the accumulated experiences of each MONAD}. SPIRIT (or Atma) presides over these. One might observe that the Mind faculty is divided into two aspects: Higher Manas in contact with BUDDHI, and, Lower Manas in contact with KAMA. In the Monad, as said above, Buddhi-WISDOM represents the material side of the MONAD Mind is the bridge between WISDOM of Buddhi and the "folly, and ignorance of KAMA (desires, emotions, and passions -- all selfish). This triple unity is the Reincarnating Ego, the Higher Manas being the compound entity that uses the Lower Manas and the 4 vehicles that are continually refreshed, and reshaped by the reincarnation process. The 4 lower vehicles seem to me to be 1. Kama or desires, passions, emotions, relating to a selfish attitude. 2. Prana or the Life-Principle of energies and forces that underlie the Astral. 3. Astral body or The lattice work of electro-magnetic forces that form the "grid," or "patterns for the physical atoms and molecules to arrange themselves on, and thus, form a base for the physical structures need for a living being. We the Ego are in fact the tenant of this marvelous construction on the physical plane. Itself, our body, is the result of unseen and well adjusted laws operating at many levels of support. 4. Physical body made up of the sub-atomic forces and powers -- (Monads), atoms, molecules, cells, etc... The whole objective of the Universe may be said to encourage, if not force, the evolution of faithful, honorable, just, universal and impartial "assistants." That is ourselves as Egos, our Monads, in evolution, and, by self-effort make themselves into faithful executors of LAW. But this is not destructive of our initiative or being subject to Karmic repercussions at all stages of m our growth. Our individuality is never suppressed or destroyed. It is the ETERNAL PILGRIM. Mankind, as groups, races tribes, etc... represents the Monads who have reached the stage where they graduate from the refined instincts of animal evolution into the arena of Spiritual Action. When the Mind (Lower Manas) is "lit up," the free SPIRITUAL BEING (the Ego or Monad) has an opportunity to exercise its innate "freedom." It can now choose.-- and receive the results of such choices. Those that are wise study first themselves and Nature, so as to determine what their powers and opportunities are. The struggle then revolves around the victory for personal (Lower Mind) selfishness, or the conscious (Higher Mind) universality of the true Ego that views life as service due to others -- brotherhood. Nature being disturbed, and itself being entirely Monadic in its many parts, notes the impact of the moral quality of motive and choice made by these independent Monads. It sees that every "monad of lesser experience" is altered by the quality of those Motives. If they are distorted, they become the bearers of that distortion into the future, when, at the appropriate cycle they cause the generator of the disturbance to feel its effects directly. We call this Karma and qualify it as "good," or "bad." Let me add here some passages from H P B's that have some relation to what I write above. ." Spirit emanates from the unknown Darkness, the mystery into which none of us can penetrate. That Spirit -- call it the "Spirit of God" or Primordial Substance -- mirrors itself in the Waters of Space -- or the still undifferentiated matter of the future Universe -- and produces thereby the first flutter of differentiation in the homogeneity of primordial matter. This is the Voice, pioneer of the "Word" or the first manifestation; and from that Voice emanates the Word or Logos, that is to say, the definite and objective expression of that which has hitherto remained in the depths of the Concealed Thought. That which mirrors itself in Space is the Third Logos. We may express this Trinity also by the terms Color, Sound, and Numbers. " Trans 148 "Every form, we are told, is built in accordance with the model traced for it in the Eternity and reflected in the DIVINE MIND. There are hierarchies of "Builders of form," and series of forms and degrees, from the highest to the lowest. While the former are shaped under the guidance of the "Builders" the gods "Cosmocratores," the latter are fashioned by the Elementals or Nature Spirits." Trans. 130 "He who would be an occultist must not separate either himself or anything else from the rest of creation or non-creation. For, the moment he distinguishes himself from even a vessel of dishonor, he will not be able to join himself to any vessel of honor. He must think of himself as an infinitesimal something, not even as an individual atom, but as a part of the world-atoms as a whole, or become an illusion, a nobody, and vanish like a breath leaving no trace behind. As illusions, we are separate distinct bodies, living in masks furnished by Maya. "Can we claim one single atom in our body as distinctly our own? Everything, from spirit to the tiniest particle, is part of the whole, at best a link. Break a single link and all passes into annihilation; but this is impossible. There is a series of vehicles becoming more and more gross, from spirit to the densest matter, so that with each step downward and outward we get more and more the sense of separateness developed in us. Yet this is illusory, for if there were a real and complete separation between any two human beings, they could not communicate with, or understand each other in any way. Thus with these hierarchies. Why should we separate their classes in our mind, except for purposes of distinction in practical Occultism, which is but the lowest form of applied Metaphysics. But if you seek to separate them on this plane of illusion, then all I can say is, that there exists between these Hierarchies the same abysses of distinction as between the "principles" of the Universe or those of man, if you like, and the same "principles" in a bacillus." Trans 138 "All growth depends upon the indwelling force, because on this plane of ours it is this force alone which acts consciously. The universal force cannot be regarded as a conscious force as we understand the word consciousness, because it would immediately become a personal god. It is only that which is enclosed in form, a limitation of matter, which is conscious of itself on this plane. This Free Force or Will, which is limitless and absolute, cannot be said to act understandingly, but it is the one and sole immutable Law of Life and Being. "Fohat [intelligent electricity], therefore, is spoken of as the synthetic motor power of all the imprisoned life-forces and the medium between the absolute and conditioned Force. It is a link, just as Manas is the connecting link between the gross matter of the physical body and the divine Monad which animates it, but is powerless to act upon the former directly. " Trans 134 "He who would be an occultist must not separate either himself or anything else from the rest of creation or non-creation. For, the moment he distinguishes himself from even a vessel of dishonor, he will not be able to join himself to any vessel of honor. He must think of himself as an infinitesimal something, not even as an individual atom, but as a part of the world-atoms as a whole, or become an illusion, a nobody, and vanish like a breath leaving no trace behind. As illusions, we are separate distinct bodies, living in masks furnished by Maya. Can we claim one single atom in our body as distinctly our own? Everything, from spirit to the tiniest particle, is part of the whole, at best a link. Break a single link and all passes into annihilation; but this is impossible. There is a series of vehicles becoming more and more gross, from spirit to the densest matter, so that with each step downward and outward we get more and more the sense of separateness developed in us. Yet this is illusory, for if there were a real and complete separation between any two human beings, they could not communicate with, or understand each other in any way. Thus with these hierarchies. Why should we separate their classes in our mind, except for purposes of distinction in practical Occultism, which is but the lowest form of applied Metaphysics. But if you seek to separate them on this plane of illusion, then all I can say is, that there exists between these Hierarchies the same abysses of distinction as between the "principles" of the Universe or those of man, if you like, and the same "principles" in a bacillus." Trans 138 "SELFISHNESS, the first-born of Ignorance, and the fruit of the teaching which asserts that for every newly-born infant a new soul, separate and distinct from the Universal Soul, is "created"--this Selfishness is the impassable wall between the personal Self and Truth. It is the prolific mother of all human vices, Lie being born out of the necessity for dissembling, and Hypocrisy out of the desire to mask Lie. It is the fungus growing and strengthening with age in every human heart in which it has devoured all better feelings. Selfishness kills every noble impulse in our natures, and is the one deity, fearing no faithlessness or desertion from its votaries." H P B WHAT IS TRUTH H P B Articles I p. 5-6. "...with regard to absolute and relative truth, we can only repeat what we said before. Outside a certain highly spiritual and elevated state of mind, during which Man is at one with the UNIVERSAL MIND--he can get nought on earth but relative truth, or truths, from whatsoever philosophy or religion. Were even the goddess who dwells at the bottom of the well to issue from her place of confinement, she could give man no more than he can assimilate. Meanwhile, every one can sit near that well--the name of which is KNOWLEDGE " H P B WHAT IS TRUTH? H P B Articles I 10 Best wishes, Dallas. ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: B L Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:50 AM To: Subject: Reincarnation and Consciousness -- Status of Indigenous Australians Mic F wrote: > The general trend is that as a race Indigenous > Australians are doing relatively well, although their > equal status with other non-Indigenous status is far > from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal > Australians were meant to naturally die out why are > they still prospering today? One could reply that they > have indeed died out and those Indigenous Australians > that we see today aren't Aboriginal Australians in the > sense that they have maintained their bloodlines and > culture without any corruption. There is not one > Indigenous Australian today who could claim that they > do everything exactly as it was done in 1788. And in > this sense, Aboriginal Australians have been lost to > antiquity. In terms of reincarnation, bloodlines are irrelevant. Culture is far more important. So I would say that, in terms of dying out, we are referring more to the last part of the sentence. Let us take a look at reincarnation, in the Theosophical sense. The reincarnating principle (confusingly but more easily referred to as a "monad") is attracted to physical bodies that have the highest chance of moving it forward in an evolutionary path. With a stagnated culture that has been around for a long time, it becomes a "been there, done that" path. But if the culture changes, it no longer is the same culture, and therefore becomes a much more fruitful one into which to incarnate. I am of the belief that, if there is more than one way to interpret Theosophical literature, a good indicator of the correct interpretation is new scientific discovery. And since the Human Genome Project has demonstrated that the genes involved with what is commonly called "race" are not only just a small part of the human genome, but also isolated; they tend to be unconnected with traits other than superficial ones. Therefore, when these races are referred to, at least in the Primary Literature, I believe the reference is to cultural differences brought on by geographical isolation, not genetic ones. You can take people from the so-called "races" all over the world, but if they're born in America, they're Americans. And the fact that the United States affords a place unique in the world where people from the various geographical cultures to mix freely, that is why I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded in the United States. CUT From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Fri Nov 15 05:38:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 13:38:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 51413 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 13:38:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 13:38:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 13:38:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 13:38:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:38:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7122 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.34 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR MR. WES AMERMAN, WHEN I HAVE REFERED TO THE EVOLUTION OF A THOUGHT-SYSTEM AND SOCIAL MOVEMENT FROM ONE CENTURY INTO THE NEXT AND FROM SRI LANKA TO GREAT BRITAIN AND GERMANY IN THE THIRD REICH, WHY DO YOU TRY TO IMPEACH THE HISTORICAL FACTS REGARDING WHAT I HAVE REFERED TO, WITH A STATEMENT FROM HPB WRITTEN AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE DEVELOPEMENT OF THE ENTIRE THOUGHT-SYSTEM? I DID NOT INVENT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OLCOTT / THEOSOPHY AND THE SINHALESE 'ARYAN' PERSECUTION OF THE TAMILS, BUT I DID GO TO SRI LANKA AND STUDY THE SITUATION THERE. I HAVE MERELY REPORTED ON WHAT COUNTLESS SOULS IN THE REGION KNOW, THAT SINHALESE RACIST ARYANISM, WHICH HAS AN HISTORICAL CONNECTION TO THEOSOPHY, IS AT THE ROOT OF THE ONGOING CONFLICT IN THAT REGION. WHY SHOOT THE MESSENGER ? ar as Mr. Goswhami [sic] goes, I don't know nor could care less what his > credentials might be -- as if he were some sort of authority on Blavatsky! > Daniel provided the following timely quote from Mr. Goswami, which should > make it abundantly clear that the latter has absolutely no idea what > Theosophy is about: > > "H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophists and early Aryanists made Sri > Lanka one of their world headquarters for exporting their militant > atheism. THEISM IS A SIMPLE CONCEPT. IMPERSONALISM AND VOIDISM ARE NOT ANY FORMS OF THEISM. DESPITE ANY KIND OF SOPHISTRY AND WORD JUGGLERY, THE VOIDISM OF THE THERAVADIN TRADITION OF SINHALESE BUDDHISM IS ONE OF THE MOST VOIDIST AND ATHEISTIC THOUGHT-SYSTEMS ON EARTH. THIS TRADITION WAS INFLUENCED BY AND IN TURN INFLUENCED THE TEACHINGS OF HPB, OLCOTT AND THEOSOPHY. Aryosophist esotericism in Britain and Germany became > pervaded with Theravadin Buddhist thought. THE INFLUENCE OF 'ESOTERIC' BUDDHIST AND SUFI THOUGHT ON THE ANGLO- GERMAN ARYANISTS IS WELL ATTESTED. LIKE OLCOTT AND THE SINHALESE, SRI LANKAN BUDDHIST ATHEISM, ETC. THE THINGS THAT I HAVE MENTIONED IN MY SUMMARIES HAVE ALL BEEN TREATED BY OTHER SCHOLARS. IF YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE HISTORICAL FACTS OF THESE THINGS, THEN DON'T 'SHOOT THE MESSENGER' (MYSELF) FOR BRINGING THEM UP. This 'Aryanism' doctrine > of voidism and related moral relativism eventually became central to > the conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich. Theravadin > Buddhist voidism has not been a benevolent force in history ! . ." > THE LAST CENTURY OF HORRORS INFLICTED ON THE TAMIL SHAIVITES OF SRI LANKA BY THE 'ARYAN' SINHALESE BUDDHISTS, AND THE CONNECTIONS OF THE THOUGHT-SYSTEM TO THE 'ESOTERISM' OF THE THIRD REICH ARE FACTS OF HISTORY, WHICH HAVE BEEN WELL TREATED BY OTHER SCHOLARS. I DO NOT NEED TO PROVE ANY OF THIS TO YOU. YOU MAY BE AN EXPERT ON WHAT HPB SAID, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER ROOT- RACES IDEAS AFTER THEY DIFFUSED INTO THE WORLD. > There is so much mere assertion, misinformation and innuendo contained just > in this first paragraph that I hardly know where to start -- What, for > example, is Theosophy's "militant atheism?" Blavatsky fought, to be sure, > against dogmatic religion and religious hypocrisy, but to accuse her of > "atheism" is the height of ignorance. READ THE MAHATMA'S STATEMENTS ON "GOD" IN THE LETTERS. WAS THIS CLEAR ATHEISM EVER WHOLLY REJECTED BY HPB ? SEARCH THE MAHATMA LETTERS ARCHIVESFOR "GOD". READ EVEN THE POSTS ON THIS LIST ! What is the value of such contrived > phrases as "Aryosophist esotericism," WHY IS THIS A 'CONTRIVED' PHRASE WHEN THERE WAS A WHOLE MOVEMENT OF ARYOSOPHIC ESOTERICISM ? "voidism" DON'T BLAME ME FOR THE BUUDHIST VOIDISTS'S VOIDISM. ASK MASEO ABE ABOUT ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS. and "related moral > relativism?" I DID NOT INVENT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WITH NO ULTIMATE MEANING OR VALUES USUALLY ARE MORAL RELATIVISTS. On the surface or to the uneducated, they might sound > learned, but they reek of academic bullshit. This conclusion is supported > by the next sentence, that these ideas "eventually became central to the > conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich."!!!!!!!! What crap, Brian. I GUESS YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE RESEARCH ON THE ESOTERIC ORIGINS OF THE BELIEF-SYSTEM OF THE THIRD REICH. > And you have the temerity to bring this man forward on this list and promote > him as an "authority" on Theosophy and Blavatsky???? WHY DOES A DISCUSSION OF ELEMENTS OF THEOSOPHICAL THOUGHT IN LATER ARYANSISM ANGER YOU SO ? I HAVE STATED THAT I DO NOT EQUATE HPB'S PERSONAL ARYANISM WITH THAT OF THE NAZIS. SHE ONLY STARTED SOMETHING WHICH TURNED UGLY AND DANGEROUS IN THE HANDS OF OTHERS. I'm sure anyone who > has ever read Blavatsky with half an eye open could find ample references in > her writings to refute this garbage. HOW CAN YOU USE A STATEMENT MADE IN ONE CENTURY TO 'REFUTE' THE EXISTANCE OF AN HISTORICAL REALITY IN THE NEXT ? One line from Blavatsky should suffice > as a start: "Theosophy is altruism, and we cannot repeat it too often." > And have you ever read the first object of the Theosophical Society: "To > form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction > of race, color or creed?" [Key to Theosophy, p 39] I ALSO DON'T BLAME JESUS CHRIST FOR THE SPANISH INQUISITION, OR BLAME SIDDARTHA GAUTAMA BUDDHA FOR THE SINS OF THE SINHALESE BUDDHISTS. YOU AND YOUR ALLIES HAVE CREATED A 'STRAW MAN' ENEMY OUT OF ME. I DO NOT THINK HPB WAS SOME KIND OF MONSTER. I HAVE NOT DRAGGED HER INTO THE THIRD REICH OR THE RECENT DECADES OF GLOBAL HORRORS INFLICTED BY ARYANIST RACISTS. THEY USED SOME OF 'HER' IDEAS, THAT IS ALL. WHY DO YOU INSIST THAT I AM ASCRIBING THEIR HATRED TO HER ? I AM INTERESTED IN THE HISTORY OF IDEAS, ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS ONES THAT HARM PEOPLE. I HAVE NO PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST HPB. ALTRUISTIC THEOSOPHISTS HAVE NOT MURDERED THOUSANDS OF TAMILS, AND ARE NOT BLOWING UP TAMIL LIBRARIES AND DESTROYING TEMPLES AND CULTURAL TREASURES BY THE HUNDREDS. ALTRUISTIC TS MEMBERS ARE NOT THE NEO-NAZI ARYANISTS WHO HAVE SENT ME DEATH THREATS IN THE MAIL. I HAVE NO QUARREL WITH REAL ALTUISTS OF ANY KIND. IT IS THE KILLERS AND CULTURE-DESTROYERS THAT ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OR OPPRESS NON'ARYAN' PEOPLES THAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT. MY INTEREST IN THEOSOPHY IS IN PART BECAUSE IT IS STILL GENERATING THE ROOT-RACES IDEAS THAT SO READILY MUTATE INTO 'ARYANIST'GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGNS. IF THEOSOPHISTS ARE NOT DOGMATISTS, WHY CAN'T THEY TREAT HPB/ THE MAHATMAS AS SOMETHING OTHER THAN INFALLIBLE ? WHY CAN'T THEY ADMIT THAT THE ROOT RACES IDEA WAS WRONG TO BEGIN WITH ? ARE THE CHINESE OR AFRICANS REALLY DYING OUT ? DUE TO THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME PEOPLE ON THIS LIST, I WILL PROBABLY NOT BE POSTING HERE AGAIN. BEST WISHES TO YOU ALL, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > Just what is your purpose in "contributing" to this list? To prove that > there are "experts" in academia who share your views? To dissuade inquirers > from looking into Theosophy? To attack your least favorite historical > personages and hope that others will come to share your biases? > > Best Regards, > Wes Amerman From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 05:55:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 13:55:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 63581 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 13:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 13:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 13:55:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 13:55:45 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:55:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD45092.B1C0AAF6@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3202 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.218 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > No, he went to jail for life because he was a crook. I agree totally that he broke the law. No question about that. The issue is whether he would have faced any penalty had he not been poor. You will not admit it, but I know you seretly agree on this. > Well, I oppose most drug laws; I believe that they are part of a > campaign to deny that there is a basic right of freedom of thought (hate > crime laws are another step in that direction). Besides, I like to > consider them to be evolution in action. No problem there. The drug laws exist because there is a drug law industry whch employs thousands of people who would raise hell if the laws were modified. It is a modern form of the WPA. My point was that the congress commissions a study to determine what sort of drugs blacks use (crack cocaine) then decides to selectively enact Draconian penalties for just those offenses which are committed mostly by blacks. Then they excuse themselves and other members of their class if they get caught violating those same laws. If you do not see that as being a wee mite on the cynical side, then I am starting to understand how you can defend Ariel Sharon and Israel. > If she does it again, watch what happens. Let me guess. Another year long publicity stunt disguised as a trial? > And there is no reason in the United States that anybody has to beg for > pennies, sleep under bridges, or steal bread, unless they are mentally > ill, or have a mental illness they brought upon themselves (such as drug > addiction). Regrettably not true. Anyway, the point is that the laws are designed to protect the rich and punish the poor. The fact that the point was cleverly stated does not make it an invalid observation. > So, what do you suggest we do to the rich so that they are more > motivated to commit crimes? Given all the stuff that is in the news day after day I would say they are plenty motivatd to commit crimes. What is lacking is motivation to commit to equal justice. > I don't believe Tawana Brawley's story. Not even Al Sharpton still > believes Tawana Brawley was telling the truth. Al Sharpton believes things nonody could believe. He published a book recently defending his Tawana Brawley campaign yet again. I began to wonder about him recently when a black security guard strangled a man in a parking lot for stealing some trinket. The thief was black, the security guard was black, the management of the store was black, and the owners were all black, and Al starte d a campaign to convince his followers that "whitey did it." I still like him personally but I have wondered ever since if he is serious. Ditto with Jesse Jackson after he characterized serial criminal and murderer Gary Graham as a new Moses and Jesus. Unlike Sharpton, I never did like Jackson much, and have suspected after that he is just a well dressed clown. > Except a few little things like integration, black voting rights, and > affirmative action, just to name a few. I suspect Harry Belafonte would say that's just tokenism, Bart. Tokenism is not only meaningless but insulting. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Fri Nov 15 06:02:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 14:02:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 77848 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 14:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 14:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 14:02:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 14:02:49 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:02:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: ATHEISM IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1373 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.34 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Message 8549 of 8766 | From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:10 am Subject: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 PLEASE DO NOT EMBARRASS YOURSELVES BY CLAIMING THAT THIS IS 'GNOSIS' AND NOT A-THEISM. Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed] NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). Received at Simla, 1881-? '82. Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G. *************** Therefore, we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system no such thing as God, either personal or impersonal. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either admired or dreaded without understanding them, and since we claim and that we are able to prove what we claim -- i.e. the knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 06:05:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 14:05:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 90318 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 14:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 14:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 14:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 14:05:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:05:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000f01c28c48$cfd3e6a0$cfb580d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 724 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.218 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > Harry Belafonte is a rich liberal black man. Surely you don't mean that he > is oppressed and not gonna take it anymore? If I had his money, I'd give > mine away. Well, I thought it was very unseemly of him to mention Colin Powell by name (attacking the man and not the principle.) Powell did not deserve that and it is notable that his response was much more dignified that Belafonte's original statement. But Belafonte's money is not the issue. The issue is (1) does he have a point, and (2) is he articulating the opinion of a sizable number of others in his community? If the answer to either of those is yes, then we should listen to him. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 06:33:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 43340 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:33:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c28c6d$f3899840$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2546 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.218 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - extremly > nationalistic - country which > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they do the > opposite ! Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > EU-countries - looking at percentages. Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. > And what about the arab countries or India ? They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of USA are > allowed "FREE MIXING". Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is important. > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get beaten too badly. You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an accurate view of the situation. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Nov 15 06:36:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 14:36:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 85151 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 14:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 14:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 14:36:55 -0000 Received: from mkr1.gbronline.com [209.12.91.90] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A610822A025E; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:34:56 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021115083624.032ba3a0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:38:52 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Help for Visually Impaired Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Windows, there is built-in options for visually impaired by displaying large letters on monitors. I think this is helping a lot of people with poor vision. mkr ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 07:40:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 15:40:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 59522 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 15:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 15:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 15:40:06 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 07B505EE85F for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:40:06 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002801c28cbc$8ab42fc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:34:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Steve and all of you, Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! Maybe more than you would know. from M. Sufilight with a happy smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. > > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - > extremly > > nationalistic - country which > > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they > do the > > opposite ! > > Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he > wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just > inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. > Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > > > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of > work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were > reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It > is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested > interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. > > Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political > spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. > > > And what about the arab countries or India ? > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of > USA are > > allowed "FREE MIXING". > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > > > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? > > I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > > > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > important. > > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > > Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going > to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a > rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. > The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get > beaten too badly. > > You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > accurate view of the situation. > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 07:41:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 15:41:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 38013 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 15:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 15:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 15:41:52 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CibP-0002VS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:41:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD515E1.D5827E2C@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:42:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <20021114071056.7347.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> <3DD3E25C.E68322A7@sprynet.com> <002901c28c0d$be88e020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD4090B.94FED5EE@sprynet.com> <003201c28c28$1cd81960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <000f01c28c2f$5dc15ca0$cfb580d8@default> <3DD42915.5132DC01@sprynet.com> <000b01c28c6d$f3899840$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - > extremly nationalistic - country which say they follow the word > "freedom" as their nickname - while they do the opposite ! No, we don't want you to fall on your knees. Simply judging the United States on the same basis on which you judge your own country would be sufficient. Bart From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 15 07:43:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 15:43:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 41721 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 15:43:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 15:43:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 15:43:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 15:43:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:43:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theism compared to A-Theism and Pan-theism in the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 26744 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell On the subject of ATHEISM IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS, Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes the following about Master KH's comments on "God" in Mahatma Letter No. 10: "PLEASE DO NOT EMBARRASS YOURSELVES BY CLAIMING THAT THIS IS 'GNOSIS' AND NOT A-THEISM." One needs to go beyond the words used in the letters and ponder on the meaning of the words and the concepts and ideas presented by the Mahatmas. It is also important to keep in mind as one reads ML-10 what the Mahatmas KH and M write in their other letters on the SAME and related subjects. Therefore I give BELOW a compilation of extracts from various Mahatma letters on "God", "spirit", "matter", "atman", Parabrahm, etc. One might also annotate all of these extracts with other extracts from HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE and her other works. One might also ponder on the words theism, a-theism and pan-theism and what they actually mean as one reads all these extracts. Daniel ----------------------------------------- Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G. . . . we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system no such thing as God, either personal or impersonal. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great delusion. . . . . . . while we assign to all the phenomena that proceed from the infinite and limitless space, duration and motion, material, natural, sensible and known (to us at least) cause, the theists assign them spiritual, super-natural and unintelligible an un-known causes. . . . . . . Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that there is not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than God; or as that famous and unfortunate philosopher says in his fourteenth proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque concepi potest substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists . . . . . . . When we speak of our One Life we also say that it penetrates, nay is the essence of every atom of matter; and that therefore it not only has correspondence with matter but has all its properties likewise, etc. -- hence is material, is matter itself. . . . . . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on it and become agnostics. . . . . . . We deny the existence of a thinking conscious God, on the grounds that such a God must either be conditioned, limited and subject to change, therefore not infinite, or . . . if he is represented to us as an eternal unchangeable and independent being, with not a particle of matter in him, then we answer that it is no being but an immutable blind principle, a law. . . . . . . if they tell us that God is a self existent pure spirit independent of matter -- an extra-cosmic deity, we answer that admitting even the possibility of such an impossibility, i.e., his existence, we yet hold that a purely immaterial spirit cannot be an intelligent conscious ruler nor can he have any of the attributes bestowed upon him by theology and thus such a God becomes again but a blind force. Intelligence as found in our Dyan Chohans, is a faculty that can appertain but to organized or animated being -- however imponderable or rather invisible the materials of their organizations. Intelligence requires the necessity of thinking; to think one must have ideas; ideas suppose senses which are physical material, and how can anything material belong to pure spirit? . . . . . . we believe in MATTER alone, in matter as visible nature and matter in its invisibility as the invisible omnipresent omnipotent Proteus with its unceasing motion which is its life, and which nature draws from herself since she is the great whole outside of which nothing can exist. . . . . . . The existence of matter then is a fact; the existence of motion is another fact, their self existence and eternity or indestructibility is a third fact. And the idea of pure spirit as a Being or an Existence -- give it whatever name you will -- is a chimera, a gigantic absurdity. . . . . . . Contrary in that to the finite, the "infinite mind," which we name so but for argument's sake, for we call it the infinite FORCE -- exhibits but the functions of its cerebellum, the existence of its supposed cerebrum being admitted as above stated, but on the inferential hypothesis deduced from the Kabalistic theory (correct in every other relation) of the Macrocosm being the prototype of the Microcosm. So far as we know the corroboration of it by modern science receiving but little consideration -- so far as the highest Planetary Spirits have ascertained (who remember well have the same relations with the trans-cosmical world, penetrating behind the primitive veil of cosmic matter as we have to go behind the veil of this, our gross physical world --) the infinite mind displays to them as to us no more than the regular unconscious throbbings of the eternal and universal pulse of Nature, throughout the myriads of worlds within as without the primitive veil of our solar system. It is the peculiar faculty of the involuntary power of the infinite mind -- which no one could ever think of calling God, -- to be eternally evolving subjective matter into objective atoms (you will please remember that these two adjectives are used but in a relative sense) or cosmic matter to be later on developed into form. And it is likewise that same involuntary mechanical power that we see so intensely active in all the fixed laws of nature -- which governs and controls what is called the Universe or the Cosmos. There are some modern philosophers who would prove the existence of a Creator from motion. We say and affirm that that motion -- the universal perpetual motion which never ceases never slackens nor increases its speed not even during the interludes between the pralayas, or "nights of Brahma" but goes on like a mill set in motion, whether it has anything to grind or not (for the pralaya means the temporary loss of every form, but by no means the destruction of cosmic matter which is eternal) -- we say this perpetual motion is the only eternal and uncreated Deity we are able to recognise. To regard God as an intelligent spirit, and accept at the same time his absolute immateriality is to conceive of a nonentity, a blank void; to regard God as a Being, an Ego and to place his intelligence under a bushel for some mysterious reasons -- is a most consummate nonsense; to endow him with intelligence in the face of blind brutal Evil is to make of him a fiend -- a most rascally God. A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; "No-being" and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism. What lies beyond and outside the worlds of form, and being, in worlds and spheres in their most spiritualized state -- (and you will perhaps oblige us by telling us where that beyond can be, since the Universe is infinite and limitless) is useless for anyone to search after since even Planetary Spirits have no knowledge or perception of it. If our greatest adepts and Bodhisatvas have never penetrated themselves beyond our solar system, -- and the idea seems to suit your preconceived theistic theory wonderfully, my respected Brother -- they still know of the existence of other such solar systems, with as mathematical a certainty as any western astronomer knows of the existence of invisible stars which he can never approach or explore. But of that which lies within the worlds and systems, not in the trans-infinitude -- (a queer expression to use) -- but in the cis-infinitude rather, in the state of the purest and inconceivable immateriality, no one ever knew or will ever tell, hence it is something non-existent for the universe. You are at liberty to place in this eternal vacuum the intellectual or voluntary powers of your deity -- if you can conceive of such a thing. . . . . . . And we maintain that wherever there is life and being, and in however much spiritualized a form, there is no room for moral government, much less for a moral Governor -- a Being which at the same time has no form nor occupies space! Verily if light shineth in darkness, and darkness comprehends it not, it is because such is the natural law, but how more suggestive and pregnant with meaning for one who knows, to say that light can still less comprehend darkness, nor ever know it since it kills wherever it penetrates and annihilates it instantly. Pure yet a volitional Spirit is an absurdity for volitional mind. The result of organism cannot exist independently of an organized brain, and an organized brain made out of nihil is a still greater fallacy. If you ask me "Whence then the immutable laws? -- laws cannot make themselves" -- then in my turn I will ask you -- and whence their supposed Creator? -- a creator cannot create or make himself. If the brain did not make itself, for this would be affirming that brain acted before it existed, how could intelligence, the result of an organized brain, act before its creator was made. . . . Yes: there is a force as limitless as thought, as potent as boundless will, as subtile as the essence of life so inconceivably awful in its rending force as to convulse the universe to its centre would it but be used as a lever, but this Force is not God, since there are men who have learned the secret of subjecting it to their will when necessary. Look around you and see the myriad manifestations of life, so infinitely multiform; of life, of motion, of change. What caused these? From what inexhaustible source came they, by what agency? Out of the invisible and subjective they have entered our little area of the visible and objective. Children of Akasa, concrete evolutions from the ether, it was force which brought them into perceptibility and Force will in time remove them from the sight of man. Why should this plant in your garden to the right, have been produced with such a shape and that other one to the left with one totally dissimilar? Are these not the result of varying action of Force -- unlike correlations? Given a perfect monotony of activities throughout the world, and we would have a complete identity of forms, colours, shapes and properties throughout all the kingdoms of nature. It is the motion with its resulting conflict, neutralization, equilibration, correlation, to which is due the infinite variety which prevails. You speak of an intelligent and good -- (the attribute is rather unfortunately chosen) -- Father, a moral guide and governor of the universe and man. A certain condition of things exists around us which we call normal. Under this nothing can occur which transcends our every-day experience "God's immutable laws." But suppose we change this condition and have the best of him without whom even a hair of your head will not fall, as they tell you in the West. A current of air brings to me from the lake near which, with my fingers half frozen I now write to you this letter -- I change by a certain combination of electrical magnetic odyllic or other influences the current of air which benumbs my fingers into a warmer breeze; I have thwarted the intention of the Almighty, and dethroned him at my will! I can do that, or when I do not want Nature to produce strange and too visible phenomena, I force my nature-seeing, nature-influencing self within me, to suddenly awake to new perceptions and feelings and thus am my own Creator and ruler. But do you think that you are right when saying that "the laws arise." Immutable laws cannot arise, since they are eternal and uncreated, propelled in the Eternity and that God himself if such a thing existed, could never have the power of stopping them. And when did I say that these laws were fortuitous per se. I meant their blind correlations, never the laws, or rather the law -- since we recognise but one law in the Universe, the law of harmony, of perfect EQUILIBRIUM. Then for a man endowed with so subtle a logic, and such a fine comprehension of the value of ideas in general and that of words especially -- for a man so accurate as you generally are to make tirades upon an "all wise, powerful and love-ful God" seems to say at least strange. I do not protest at all as you seem to think against your theism, or a belief in an abstract ideal of some kind, but I cannot help asking you, how do you or how can you know that your God is all wise, omnipotent and love-ful, when everything in nature, physical and moral, proves such a being, if he does exist to be quite the reverse of all you say of him? Strange delusion and one which seems to overpower your very intellect. . . . The conception of matter and spirit as entirely distinct, and both eternal could certainly never have entered my head, however little I may know of them, for it is one of the elementary and fundamental doctrines of Occultism that the two are one, and are distinct but in their respective manifestations, and only in the limited perceptions of the world of senses. Far from "lacking philosophical breadth" then, our doctrines show, but one principle in nature, -- spirit-matter or matter-spirit, the third the ultimate Absolute or the quintessence of the two, -- if I may be allowed to use an erroneous term in the present application -- losing itself beyond the view and spiritual perceptions of even the "Gods" or Planetary Spirits. This third principle say the Vedantic Philosophers -- is the only reality, everything else being Maya, as none of the Protean manifestations of spirit-matter or Purusha and Prakriti have ever been regarded in any other light than that of temporary delusions of the senses. Even in the hardly outlined philosophy of Isis this idea is clearly carried out. In the book of Kiu-te, Spirit is called the ultimate sublimation of matter, and matter the crystallization of spirit. And no better illustration could be afforded than in the very simple phenomenon of ice, water, vapour and the final dispersion of the latter, the phenomenon being reversed in its consecutive manifestations and called the Spirit failing into generation or matter. This trinity resolving itself into unity, -- a doctrine as old as the world of thought -- was seized upon by some early Christians, who had it in the schools of Alexandria, and made up into the Father, or generative spirit; the Son or matter, -- man; and into the Holy Ghost, the immaterial essence, or the apex of the equilateral triangle, an idea found to this day in the pyramids of Egypt. Thus once more it is proved that you misunderstand my meaning entirely, whenever for the sake of brevity I use a phraseology habitual with the Western people. But in my turn I have to remark that your idea that matter is but the temporary allotropic form of spirit differing from it as charcoal does from diamond is as unphilosophical as it is unscientific from both the Eastern and the Western points of view, charcoal being but a form of residue of matter, while matter per se is indestructible, and as I maintain coeval with spirit -- that spirit which we know and can conceive of. Bereaved of Prakriti, Purusha (Spirit) is unable to manifest itself, hence ceases to exist -- becomes nihil. Without spirit or Force, even that which Science styles as "not living" matter, the so-called mineral ingredients which feed plants, could never have been called into form. There is a moment in the existence of every molecule and atom of matter when, for one cause or another, the last spark of spirit or motion or life (call it by whatever name) is withdrawn, and in the same instant with the swiftness which surpasses that of the lightning glance of thought the atom or molecule or an aggregation of molecules is annihilated to return to its pristine purity of intra-cosmic matter. It is drawn to the mother fount with the velocity of a globule of quicksilver to the central mass. Matter, force, and motion are the trinity of physical objective nature, as the trinitarian unity of spirit-matter is that of the spiritual or subjective nature. Motion is eternal because spirit is eternal. But no modes of motion can ever be conceived unless they be in connection with matter. . . . . . . And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra- cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find -- each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara. . . . . . . Avalokita Isvar literally interpreted means "the Lord that is seen." "Iswara" implying moreover, rather the adjective than the noun, lordly, self-existent lordliness, not Lord. It is, when correctly interpreted, in one sense "the divine Self perceived or seen by Self," the Atman or seventh principle ridded of its mayavic distinction from its Universal Source -- which becomes the object of perception for, and by the individuality centred in Buddhi, the sixth principle, -- something that happens only in the highest state of Samadhi. This is applying it to the microcosm. In the other sense Avalokitesvara implies the seventh Universal Principle, as the object perceived by the Universal Buddhi "Mind" or Intelligence which is the synthetic aggregation of all the Dhyan Chohans, as of all other intelligences whether great or small, that ever were, are, or will be. Nor is it the "Spirit of Buddhas present in the Church," but the Omnipresent Universal Spirit in the temple of nature -- in one case; and the seventh Principle -- the Atman in the temple -- man -- in the other. Mr. Rhys Davids might have, at least remembered, the (to him) familiar simile made by the Christian Adept, the Kabalistic Paul: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you" -- and thus avoided to have made a mess of the name. Though as a grammarian he detected the use of the "past particle passive" yet he shows himself far from an inspired "Panini" in overlooking the true cause and saving his grammar by raising the hue and cry against metaphysics. And yet, he quotes Beale's [Beal] Catena as his authority, for the invention, when, in truth, this work is perhaps the only one in English that gives an approximately correct explanation of the word, at any rate, on page 374. "Self- manifested" -- How? it is asked. "Speech or Vach was regarded as the Son or the manifestation of the Eternal Self, and was adored under the name of Avalokitesvara, the manifested God." This shows as clearly as can be -- that Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other; -- namely, the Parabrahm and Jivatman, the Universal and the individualized seventh Principle, -- the Passive and the Active, the latter the Word, Logos, the Verb. Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded Christians know that the real Christ of every Christian is the Vach, the "mystical Voice," . . . . . . [Do you] know the meaning of the white and black interlaced triangles, of the Parent [Theosophical] Society's seal . . . ? Shall I explain? -- the double triangle viewed by the Jewish Kabalists as Solomon's Seal, is, as many of you doubtless know the Sri-antara of the archaic Aryan Temple, the "mystery of Mysteries," a geometrical synthesis of the whole occult doctrine. The two interlaced triangles are the Buddhangums of Creation. They contain the "squaring of the circle," the "philosophical stone," the great problems of Life and Death, and -- the Mystery of Evil. . . .Of course you know that the double-triangle -- the Satkiri Chakram of Vishnu -- or the six-pointed star, is the perfect seven. In all the old Sanskrit works -- Vedic and Tantrik -- you find the number 6 mentioned more often than the 7 -- this last figure, the central point being implied, for it is the germ of the six and their matrix . . . the central point standing for seventh, and the circle, the Mahakasha -- endless space -- for the seventh Universal Principle. In one sense, both are viewed as Avalokitesvara, for they are respectively the Macrocosm and the microcosm. The interlaced triangles -- the upper pointing one -- is Wisdom concealed, and the downward pointing one -- Wisdom revealed (in the phenomenal world). The circle indicates the bounding, circumscribing quality of the All, the Universal Principle which, from any given point expands so as to embrace all things, while embodying the potentiality of every action in the Cosmos. As the point then is the centre round which the circle is traced -- they are identical and one, and though from the standpoint of Maya and Avidya -- (illusion and ignorance) -- one is separated from the other by the manifested triangle, the 3 sides of which represent the three gunas -- finite attributes. In symbology the central point is Jivatma (the 7th principle), and hence Avalokitesvara, the Kwan-Shai-yin, the manifested "Voice" (or Logos), the germ point of manifested activity; -- hence -- in the phraseology of the Christian Kabalists "the Son of the Father and Mother," and agreeably to ours -- "the Self manifested in Self -- Yih-sin, the "one form of existence," the child of Dharmakaya (the universally diffused Essence), both male and female. Parabrahm or "Adi-Buddha" while acting through that germ point outwardly as an active force, reacts from the circumference inwardly as the Supreme but latent Potency. The double triangles symbolize the Great Passive and the Great Active; the male and female; Purusha and Prakriti. Each triangle is a Trinity because presenting a triple aspect. The white represents in its straight lines: Gnanam -- (Knowledge); Gnata -- (the Knower); and Gnayam -- (that which is known). The black-form, colour, and substance, also the creative, preservative, and destructive forces and are mutually correlating, etc., etc. . . . . . . every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world and becomes an active entity by associating itself -- coalescing, we might term it -- with an elemental; that is to say with one of the semi-intelligent forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence, a creature of the mind's begetting, for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the original intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus, a good thought is perpetuated as an active beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a world of his own, crowded with the offsprings of his fancies, desires, impulses, and passions, a current which reacts upon any sensitive or and nervous organisation which comes in contact with it in proportion to its dynamic intensity. The Buddhist calls this his "Skandha," the Hindu gives it the name of "Karma"; the Adept evolves these shapes consciously, other men throw them off unconsciously. . . . . . . The human brain is an exhaustless generator of the most refined quality of cosmic force, out of the low, brute energy of nature; and the complete adept has made himself a centre from which irradiate potentialities that beget correlations upon correlations through Aeons to come. This is the key to the mystery of his being able to project into and materialise in the visible world the forms that his imagination has constructed out of inert cosmic matter in the invisible world. The adept does not create anything new, but only utilises and manipulates materials which nature has in store around him; a material which throughout eternities has passed through all the forms; he has but to choose the one he wants and recall it into objective existence. . . . What have we, the disciples of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and of Sang-gyas to do with the Shasters and Orthodox Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, on the path of error, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us. Which of them is ready to become a Buddhist, a Nastika as they call us? . . . Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do not find it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are Dhyan-Chohans and "Chohans of Darkness," not what they term devils but imperfect "Intelligences" who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere no more than the "Dhyan Chohans" have and who will never belong to the "builders of the Universe," the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. . . . as all in this universe is contrast . . . so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the "Ma-Mo Chohans" -- and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship; and so long as their influence is upon their devotees we would no more think of associating with or counteracting them in their work. . . . From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 07:49:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 15:49:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 78870 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 15:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 15:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 15:49:56 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CijE-0003aq-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:49:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD517C5.CD50096A@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:50:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > The conference in India where they demonstrated this also had a lecture > on the Indian rope trick by the way, but as I already once mentioned to > Steve Stubbs, I would have to look up my notes for the details what they > all said about it. Will try to post that in about 5-6 hours on my web site. Well, if anybody knows how to perform the Indian Rope Trick, they can make a bundle of money; I think the reward is up to half a million dollars for a single performance of it. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 08:08:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 16:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 75239 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 16:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 16:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 16:08:23 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Cj14-00000w-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:08:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD51C18.B9363CFA@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:08:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, Actually, the big oil companies don't want the United States to go to war with Iraq. If the U.S. lifted the sanctions, Saddam Hussein would be more than happy to increase his oil production and sell it to the U.S. cheap. In terms of oil, letting Hussein do whatever he wants to do would increase the supply and decrease the price. > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > the face of it, I don't believe it EVER was well-intentioned. If you read the debates over the early drug laws, they were quite explicitly aimed at bigotry. A major anti-marijuana campaign was started by, at one end, Prohibition agents who saw their jobs disappearing, and, at the other end, organized crime who had just lost a major profit source. The drug laws ever since have been designed not based on how dangerous the drugs are, but how much more likely are minorities to use the drugs. > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > Some of us hope we can catch up someday. I assume that is a joke. There's a term for those who don't obey the government in every particular in Arab countries: corpses. > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. Please feel free to give a way that Israel can give the Palestinians full rights without having the Palestinians thank them by killing every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel? That is Israel's dilemma. Bart From adelasie@surfari.net Fri Nov 15 08:13:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 16:13:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 57036 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 16:13:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 16:13:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 16:13:24 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAFGDJAZ020329 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:13:21 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:12:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: <3DD4AC85.13475.1B3770@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Dear Wes, In a post to Brian/Brigitte you said: > Just what is your purpose in "contributing" to this list? To prove > that there are "experts" in academia who share your views? To > dissuade inquirers from looking into Theosophy? To attack your least > favorite historical personages and hope that others will come to share > your biases? After reading (or trying to ignore) the persistent "contributions" from this person over the past year or so, I have begun to realize that the best way to view such a phenomenon is as an impersonal force, that which seeks to separate, disintegrate, and destroy, all that tends toward unity and brotherhood. As a personality it is a cipher, protected by cyber space and capable of transformation to some extent, and camoflage. But as a force it is very familiar. It seeks a fight. It is unprincipled and gives itself complete license to say or do anything that will elicit a response, thus throwing the responder off balance. That is its victory. Take a look at the state of the world, the tremendous issues hanging in the balance for the whole human race. It wasn't an accident that Theosophy manifested at this point in the evolution of humanity. Theosophists have important work to do, and we can be effective, on inner planes and outer, but we have to be in control of ourselves first. So along comes this annoying stinging insect, and we get busy slapping at it, and forget all about the fact that our survival is at stake. Adelasie From eldon@theosophy.com Fri Nov 15 08:34:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 13784 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 16:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 16:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 16:34:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 19254 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 16:34:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.38) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 16:34:52 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Comments: See http://www.bitgate.com/spam/ for info on this software. X-Comments: These headers are here for you to report spam! X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.38 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 11:34:52(EST) on November 15, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.38 To: Subject: the value of the original philosophy Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:34:00 -0800 Message-ID: <002101c28cc4$d0f4d4a0$26bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Goswami: I'm writing some comments in reply to what you wrote to Wes Amerman. I'm not being critical of you, but think that you may not be aware of how your approach may be seen by someone following the theosophical approach to life. > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami [mailto:bhakti.eohn@verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:39 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters > > DEAR MR. WES AMERMAN, > > WHEN I HAVE REFERED TO THE EVOLUTION OF A THOUGHT-SYSTEM AND SOCIAL > MOVEMENT FROM ONE CENTURY INTO THE NEXT AND FROM SRI LANKA TO GREAT > BRITAIN AND GERMANY IN THE THIRD REICH, WHY DO YOU TRY TO IMPEACH THE > HISTORICAL FACTS REGARDING WHAT I HAVE REFERED TO, WITH A STATEMENT > FROM HPB WRITTEN AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE DEVELOPEMENT OF THE > ENTIRE THOUGHT-SYSTEM? Historical facts provide the basis for many different theories. You tell a story that attempts to explain the as a single movement evolving in a certain manner. That story is yours. It is not a fact. It is based upon your assumptions about the world and how life works. > I DID NOT INVENT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OLCOTT / THEOSOPHY AND THE > SINHALESE 'ARYAN' PERSECUTION OF THE TAMILS, BUT I DID GO TO SRI > LANKA AND STUDY THE SITUATION THERE. A relationship implies a causative factor, but I do not think there was any such intent on his part. My understanding is that he is somewhat of a national hero for his work to restore faith in Buddhism and stop the corrupting effects of missionaries in their efforts to destroy competing religions. Which it may be true that things he said or did could become misused later by people later on, it has nothing to do with him or Theosophy. Consider Jim Jones and the death by suicide of his Christian community. I could discuss the relationship between Christianity and the terrible result of his actions. The suicides are a fact. The involvement of Christianity is a fact. But if I discuss a "relationship" and imply that such is a natural evolution of that particular religion, I would be presenting a theory, not a fact. If I were to make such a foolish claim, you would likely protest and say that Christianity has nothing to do with the abuses of people like Jim Jones. I could reply that you're just another religious crackpot and then flood the list with postings on the evil of Christianity, with stories about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts, the political corruption and intrigue, the greed, corruption, and sexual abuse within the church hierarchy, and ignore any protests you may make that Christians don't have anything to do with such corruption. This sort of approach is one taken by the political propagandist. Its intent is to manipulate people. > I HAVE MERELY REPORTED ON WHAT > COUNTLESS SOULS IN THE REGION KNOW, THAT SINHALESE RACIST ARYANISM, > WHICH HAS AN HISTORICAL CONNECTION TO THEOSOPHY, IS AT THE ROOT OF > THE ONGOING CONFLICT IN THAT REGION. WHY SHOOT THE MESSENGER ? There is a term, "reification," which means "the mental conversion of a person or abstract concept into a thing." That has been done with many terms including "racism" and "Aryanism." Both are concepts, not literal realities. What is real is prejudice, fear, and an unwillingness to accept people that are different. This shows up in many ways. One's so-called race is but one example. One's religion, nation, political party, or philosophical preference (e.g. deism versus non-deism) are all objects of this form of hate (the opposite of love and acceptance). The basic problem with the Sinhalese is the same as everywhere -- in America, Northern Ireland, Palestine, or the Vatican. It's prejudice. It's an unwillingness to tolerate the views of others. It's a desire to destroy what is different rather than allowing it to exist in a heterogeneous harmony. It happens with so-called racism. It also happens when followers of a religion feel compelled to destroy other beliefs. > THEISM IS A SIMPLE CONCEPT. IMPERSONALISM AND VOIDISM ARE NOT ANY > FORMS OF THEISM. DESPITE ANY KIND OF SOPHISTRY AND WORD JUGGLERY, > THE VOIDISM OF THE THERAVADIN TRADITION OF SINHALESE BUDDHISM IS ONE > OF THE MOST VOIDIST AND ATHEISTIC THOUGHT-SYSTEMS ON EARTH. THIS > TRADITION WAS INFLUENCED BY AND IN TURN INFLUENCED THE TEACHINGS OF > HPB, OLCOTT AND THEOSOPHY. Here you're presenting some of your personal philosophical views in the form of some assertions. In a theosophical forum, we're free to view things our own way, but usually discuss things. The goal is for everyone to think for themselves, not for everyone to accept one particular person's views. > THE INFLUENCE OF 'ESOTERIC' BUDDHIST AND SUFI THOUGHT ON THE ANGLO- > GERMAN ARYANISTS IS WELL ATTESTED. LIKE OLCOTT AND THE SINHALESE, > SRI LANKAN BUDDHIST ATHEISM, ETC. THE THINGS THAT I HAVE MENTIONED IN > MY SUMMARIES HAVE ALL BEEN TREATED BY OTHER SCHOLARS. While it's true that the Germans drew upon theosophical materials for their racism, the materials themselves were not racist. It's no different in this regard than someone taking a Biblical quote like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and use it as an excuse to murder someone they choose to call a witch. The Bible did not intend to authorize that killing and was not written with that person's use of it in mind. It was solely that's person's evil disposition that lead to him or her abusing the quote to rationalize the hateful act. The same is true with later abuse of theosophical writings. The fault is with the hateful person doing the abuse and has nothing to do with the philosophy or its indented use. Historians like to tell stories that explain how things are connected. The stories weave together a collage of events, attempting to find patterns behind them. The actual facts cannot be disputed, but entirely different stories can be fabricated depending upon one's biases and prejudices. That's why it's important to know the background and beliefs of a historian, since then the biases can be taken into account when we read what they say. One example of this is the history of the American Revolution. The history books in America tell a different version of what happened than is told in England. The objective facts are available for everyone, but different viewpoints lead to different so-called objective histories. Another example is the history of Buddhism that might be told by a Buddhist, a Chinese communist, or a Jesuit assigned to manipulate the truth with the goal of finding converts for his church. > THE LAST CENTURY OF HORRORS INFLICTED ON THE TAMIL SHAIVITES OF SRI > LANKA BY THE 'ARYAN' SINHALESE BUDDHISTS, AND THE CONNECTIONS OF THE > THOUGHT-SYSTEM TO THE 'ESOTERISM' OF THE THIRD REICH ARE FACTS OF > HISTORY, WHICH HAVE BEEN WELL TREATED BY OTHER SCHOLARS. I DO NOT > NEED TO PROVE ANY OF THIS TO YOU. YOU MAY BE AN EXPERT ON WHAT HPB > SAID, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER ROOT- > RACES IDEAS AFTER THEY DIFFUSED INTO THE WORLD. There are many horrors coming out of organized religion. Looking at Northern Ireland, do we blame Protestant or Catholic Christianity for the evil? In Palestine, do we blame Judaism or the Islamic faith for the evil there? We can look to any evil situation in the world and find ways that it is rationalized by the perpetrators. It's simply another misfortune, simply additional harm that they do when they pick and pervert something that originally is good and helpful. When a crime is committed in the name of religion and you blame the religion rather than the criminal, you would be blaming one victim for the harm done to the other, meanwhile ignoring those truly responsible. It's the same with a philosophy. > READ THE MAHATMA'S STATEMENTS ON "GOD" IN THE LETTERS. WAS THIS > CLEAR ATHEISM EVER WHOLLY REJECTED BY HPB ? SEARCH THE MAHATMA > LETTERS ARCHIVESFOR "GOD". READ EVEN THE POSTS ON THIS LIST ! Here's another philosophical assertion. You can describe what you believe and why you think it's the best way to think about things. That would be fine. There can be a discussion. But when you assert a particular religious stance as absolute truth and use it to judge things, you start speaking as a dogmatic religious fundamentalist. Consider the idea of a personal God. Look at how you put it. It's dogmatic if asserted as an absolute truth that must be believed in. It's an religious idea. It's fundamentalist if it must strictly adhered to and not subject to individual interpretation. > DON'T BLAME ME FOR THE BUUDHIST VOIDISTS'S VOIDISM. ASK MASEO ABE > ABOUT ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS. Having studied Buddhism, perhaps Steve Stubbs could explain to you the value of the Buddhist concept of voidness, sunyata. > I DID NOT INVENT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WITH NO ULTIMATE MEANING OR > VALUES USUALLY ARE MORAL RELATIVISTS. This is an assertion. You are claiming that without certain beliefs like you hold that people cannot have good moral values. I would disagree. > WHY DOES A DISCUSSION OF ELEMENTS OF THEOSOPHICAL THOUGHT IN LATER > ARYANSISM ANGER YOU SO ? I HAVE STATED THAT I DO NOT EQUATE HPB'S > PERSONAL ARYANISM WITH THAT OF THE NAZIS. SHE ONLY STARTED SOMETHING > WHICH TURNED UGLY AND DANGEROUS IN THE HANDS OF OTHERS. When the thought is later abused by Aryanism, it's not proper to call it theosophical thought anymore. It's no more proper than to call it Christian thought, since there's elements of abused Christianity there too. I see no purpose in attempting to claim that Theosophy has anything to do with the later abuse except to attempt to discredit it with guilt by association. > HOW CAN YOU USE A STATEMENT MADE IN ONE CENTURY TO 'REFUTE' THE > EXISTANCE OF AN HISTORICAL REALITY IN THE NEXT ? A statement by Blavatsky would be representative of theosophical views. How someone misuses it a century later, someone not a Theosophist nor accepting the same views -- that is not a "historical reality" about Theosophy. You cannot discredit Theosophy by showing bad people a century later, especially when it can be shown that they don't believe in the theosophical philosophy. > I ALSO DON'T BLAME JESUS CHRIST FOR THE SPANISH INQUISITION, OR BLAME > SIDDARTHA GAUTAMA BUDDHA FOR THE SINS OF THE SINHALESE BUDDHISTS. That's good. But do you write up your history showing a "historic relationship" between them, writing in a way that sounds like you're discrediting Jesus and Buddha? > YOU AND YOUR ALLIES HAVE CREATED A 'STRAW MAN' ENEMY OUT OF ME. I DO > NOT THINK HPB WAS SOME KIND OF MONSTER. I HAVE NOT DRAGGED HER INTO > THE THIRD REICH OR THE RECENT DECADES OF GLOBAL HORRORS INFLICTED BY > ARYANIST RACISTS. THEY USED SOME OF 'HER' IDEAS, THAT IS ALL. WHY DO > YOU INSIST THAT I AM ASCRIBING THEIR HATRED TO HER? I think that people object when you don't make it clear that you're talking about how religions and philosophies get corrupted and abused. The problem arises when you are not sufficiently clear that you say nothing bad about Theosophy or Blavatsky, but only of how, like any other noble system of thought, they can be adapted to ill use by lowly individuals. > I AM INTERESTED > IN THE HISTORY OF IDEAS, ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS ONES THAT HARM PEOPLE. Here you're starting to sound a bit biased. Perhaps this is unintentionally. The theosophical philosophy does not contain dangerous ideas that harm people. Later people may have abused ideas that can be traced to Theosophy, but their abuse of the ideas is their own fault. They could just as well have taken something from the Bible, Koran, or Vedas. > I HAVE NO PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST HPB. ALTRUISTIC THEOSOPHISTS HAVE > NOT MURDERED THOUSANDS OF TAMILS, AND ARE NOT BLOWING UP TAMIL > LIBRARIES AND DESTROYING TEMPLES AND CULTURAL TREASURES BY THE > HUNDREDS. ALTRUISTIC TS MEMBERS ARE NOT THE NEO-NAZI ARYANISTS WHO > HAVE SENT ME DEATH THREATS IN THE MAIL. I HAVE NO QUARREL WITH REAL > ALTUISTS OF ANY KIND. IT IS THE KILLERS AND CULTURE-DESTROYERS THAT > ARE TRYING TO DESTROY OR OPPRESS NON'ARYAN' PEOPLES THAT I AM > CONCERNED ABOUT. I hope you see that the killers and culture destroyers are those who are out to gain power over others, seeking to bring them to submit to a particular political, economic, or religious belief. Do you accept other beliefs, or do you feel a need to destroy them and convert others to your beliefs? If you practice tolerance, your faith is true. If you seek to carry out this work of destruction, even if but an apparently harmless way as with pen and paper, you put yourself in the ranks of the bad people you're writing about. > MY INTEREST IN THEOSOPHY IS IN PART BECAUSE IT IS > STILL GENERATING THE ROOT-RACES IDEAS THAT SO READILY MUTATE > INTO 'ARYANIST'GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGNS. The terminology needs to be revised or more clearly explained. None of us wants theosophical ideas to be fodder for hate groups. We all are concerned that the theosophical philosophy remain pure and not be abused or misrepresented by others. > IF THEOSOPHISTS ARE NOT > DOGMATISTS, WHY CAN'T THEY TREAT HPB/ THE MAHATMAS AS SOMETHING OTHER > THAN INFALLIBLE? Everyone and everything is fallible, from the Priest on the pulpit claiming to speak for God, to the Bible, the Gita, the Secret Doctrine, the nightly news on CNN, or anything that you or I say. Even so, the theosophical philosophy needs to be studied in its entirely before one can speak accurately of what it propounds. The fallibility of someone does not discredit the subject on which they speak, only on the accuracy of any single, particular statement that they may make, when taken out of context. > WHY CAN'T THEY ADMIT THAT THE ROOT RACES IDEA WAS > WRONG TO BEGIN WITH ? ARE THE CHINESE OR AFRICANS REALLY DYING > OUT ? The idea is not wrong. It is misunderstood and not as you describe it. We don't want racists twisting it to their purposes. We also don't want you unintentionally twisting it to your purpose, perhaps because of your strongly-held religious beliefs bringing you to see things a particular way. The term is unfortunate because of bad connotations with the term "race." > DUE TO THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME PEOPLE ON THIS LIST, I WILL PROBABLY NOT > BE POSTING HERE AGAIN. Your philosophical statements are proper topics of discussion. But I what I usually see is that people keep repeating what they believe without changing their minds. Perhaps the same is true of the historic discussions as well? If your intent is to prevent the generation of Theosophy into ideas harmful to others, we're all in agreement that this is a good thing to do. If your intent is to obscure the original theosophical ideas by representing Theosophy as being part of that harmfulness, we'd think you're simply out to attack, missionary-style, attempting to find more converts for your particular religion. When you write in a manner that makes that seem the case, you will certainly find people objecting to you. If that's not your intent, you might try changing how you write to make it more clear you hold the original theosophical philosophy in equal respect with others that people hold in good faith and use as their legitimate spiritual practice. -- Eldon From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 08:55:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 16:55:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 63949 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 16:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 16:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 16:55:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 16:55:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:55:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD51C18.B9363CFA@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6379 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.77.184 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Actually, the big oil companies don't want the United States to go to > war with Iraq. If the U.S. lifted the sanctions, Saddam Hussein would be > more than happy to increase his oil production and sell it to the U.S. > cheap. In terms of oil, letting Hussein do whatever he wants to do would > increase the supply and decrease the price. That is an excellent point. Let me get your thoughts on this: a few weeks ago the NY Times quoted a government official who spoke on condiion of anonymity. He said the war would be an oil war and that Bush's intention was to secure a source of oil which would guarantee his supplies "forever." I have to say, I think this fellow was telling the truth, although admittedly neither of us knows for certain. It makes me very uneasy and what particularly bothers me is that there seems to be no check or balance against Bush's ambitions anymore. He runs all three branches of the government. He runs the UN. He runs much of the rest of the world. And now he wants to run Iraq. I do not feel comfortable with a man I do not trust in the first placce having such unrestricted power. I hope war can yet be averted but do not see much hope at this point. Time will tell which way it goes. > I don't believe it EVER was well-intentioned. If you read the debates > over the early drug laws, they were quite explicitly aimed at bigotry. A > major anti-marijuana campaign was started by, at one end, Prohibition > agents who saw their jobs disappearing, and, at the other end, organized > crime who had just lost a major profit source. The drug laws ever since > have been designed not based on how dangerous the drugs are, but how > much more likely are minorities to use the drugs. No contest except on one point. The war on drugs started before the end of Prohibition, and was supported even by Prohibition gangsters in the beginning, who held drug smugglers in contempt. It is true that many laws create what might be thought of as "criminal set asides" in which a part of the economy is set aside for the benefit of the Mafia. For quite some considerable time the gaming uindustry was a criminal set aside as you probably know. After the death of their principal protector, J. Edgar Hoover, the position of the Magia started steadily deteriorating. > I assume that is a joke. There's a term for those who don't obey the > government in every particular in Arab countries: corpses. One is required to obey the government everywhere, Bart. Unless you are wealthy and know when to keep your mouth shut you are required to obey the government here. Leona Helmsley had half of that but missed the other half. Ditto with John Gotti. Ironically, an inefficient and poorly organized foreign state is intrinsically more free than a highly organized and efficient state like our own. One of Bertrand Russell's comments on history was that although ancient and medieval rulers were despots their governments were so inefficient that the people who lived under them were freer than most people are today. In most countries the law only applies if you don't know someone or pay a bribe. Most countries also do not have the phenomenal number of laws that we have, a point made by sociologists. Sociologists have long pointed out that if you want to lower the crime rate with the stroke of a pen, just repeal a few million laws. You can't take a deep breath in this country without becoming a felon twenty times over. And it's not just liberals who say so. G. Gordon Liddy just wrote a book about that. It is an issue which crosses ideological divides. > Please feel free to give a way that Israel can give the Palestinians > full rights without having the Palestinians thank them by killing every > Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel? That is Israel's dilemma. Try a thought experiment. Imagine that you have entered a time machine and been transported five hundred years into the future. Imagine further that you are busy acquainting yourself with the then current state of affairs in Palestine. >From that perspective, the twenty-first century will be history, but the people will be living with the consequences of what is being done today. If the current crowd really does succeed in putting together an ethnically purified, ethnically cleansed state in which only Jews are welcome and all Arabs and goys of every descriptin have been eliminated they will probably say that it is regrettable what had to be done, but that they feel about the same way about that as we do today about Columbus bringing the common cold to the Indians. My concern is that I don't believe that vision of the future iis workable, and I base that on some knowledge of history. A more liekly scenario is that the population will consist of Jews and Arabs, that the Arabs will be in the majority, and that the indignities beomg visited on Arabs today are considered living memories and not old and forgotten incidents. Bear in mind the average Arab thinks the Crusades happened earlier this morning. If that scenario works out, the current oppressors of the Palestinians are leaving a terrible legacy for their descendants. There is a third possibilty which will require vision and strong ethical commitment in which baby steps are taken to bring about a reconciliation with the Arabs. The idea of a "Jewish state" in which everyone else is unwelcome would have to be abandoned and Arabs would have to be given the opportunity to participate and take an interest in the welfare of the state at every level. Then as the Arabs come to the ascendant position they could be caused to think of the Jewish minority as playing an important part in the community and therefore serving the self interest of the Arab majority. The ideal would be to create an Arab state in which Jews and Arabs coexist congenially, unlike the situation everywhere else in the Muslim world. I think with sustained commitment it could be done. The Kahanist alternative, which is so popular today, leads only to disaster. Time is not on the side of the Sharonistas and the Kahanists, and they themselves frankly admit that this is true. Their goal is just to put disaster off into the future, not avert it altogether. From kazimir@chem.pmf.hr Fri Nov 15 09:01:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kazimir@chem.pmf.hr X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:01:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 39724 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:01:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:01:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO prelog.chem.pmf.hr) (161.53.233.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:01:35 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by prelog.chem.pmf.hr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15346 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:01:34 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kazimir@localhost) by prelog.chem.pmf.hr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15335; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:01:27 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20021115180213.028cd7f0@prelog.chem.pmf.hr> X-Sender: kazimir@prelog.chem.pmf.hr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:10:15 +0100 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Making of America Site In-Reply-To: <3DD4AC85.13475.1B3770@localhost> References: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 From: "Majorinc, Kazimir" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99504788 X-Yahoo-Profile: kazimirmajorinc hosts 115 articles from 1815-1925 containing word 'theosophy.' http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/ --------------------------------- Kazimir Majorinc, Zagreb, Croatia M e r c y o f C h a o s From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 09:19:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:19:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 90157 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:19:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:19:48 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4734F262949 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:19:47 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001e01c28cca$77dab6e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD51C18.B9363CFA@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:14:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Bart and all of you, Bart wrote: "Please feel free to give a way that Israel can give the Palestinians > full rights without having the Palestinians thank them by killing every > Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel? That is Israel's dilemma." My Sufilight answer: I think it is a question related to the word "share" - and how to share life and power. If the Jews won't share the ground or area with others, then they really have a problem. That is why the idea of 2 states - a less big one called "Israel" and a small and relevant in size (i.e. population size for each square mile) state called "Plaestine" or whatever name they will use in their own writing. from M. Sufilight with peace and love...and some small children... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Steve Stubbs wrote: > > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > > wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, > > Actually, the big oil companies don't want the United States to go to > war with Iraq. If the U.S. lifted the sanctions, Saddam Hussein would be > more than happy to increase his oil production and sell it to the U.S. > cheap. In terms of oil, letting Hussein do whatever he wants to do would > increase the supply and decrease the price. > > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > > drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > > the face of it, > > I don't believe it EVER was well-intentioned. If you read the debates > over the early drug laws, they were quite explicitly aimed at bigotry. A > major anti-marijuana campaign was started by, at one end, Prohibition > agents who saw their jobs disappearing, and, at the other end, organized > crime who had just lost a major profit source. The drug laws ever since > have been designed not based on how dangerous the drugs are, but how > much more likely are minorities to use the drugs. > > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > > it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > > Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > I assume that is a joke. There's a term for those who don't obey the > government in every particular in Arab countries: corpses. > > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > > Please feel free to give a way that Israel can give the Palestinians > full rights without having the Palestinians thank them by killing every > Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel? That is Israel's dilemma. > > Bart > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 15 09:26:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:26:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 64912 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:26:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 17:26:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:26:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte lectures Wes on "true scholarship"!! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1084 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In regards to "true scholarship," why is it so hard for Brian/Brigitte to properly use quotation marks & actually cite the sources used? Concerning Brian/Brigitte's post at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8762 how much of this post do you think B/B actually composed and wrote? I wish B/B would learn to properly use quotation marks and ALSO cite the sources used ESPECIALLY when B/B lectures Wes on "true scolarship." B/B does put in quotes one paragraph (more or less) from Peter Lamont. The rest of the text following this paragraph appears to be written by Brian/Brigitte. But this is NOT the case. For those interested, compare B/B's above posting with the following two web pages: (1) http://www.spr.ac.uk/Conf25_Abstracts.html (2) http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4170418,00.html It would appear that most of B/B's post was actually taken from material written by Peter Lamont. Even the books B/B advised Wes to read are taken from Lamont's material. Daniel H. Caldwell [aka Daniel C. Caldwell, P.H.] ;) ;) From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 15 09:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:28:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 90201 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:28:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO parsec.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:28:00 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-07-15.look.ca ([216.154.46.62] helo=idirect.ca) by parsec.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18CkFx-0003TD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:27:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3DD52ED4.92130171@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:28:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Bakti's interpretations about Theosophy, HPB, etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Hi Bakti, Yes, there are all kinds of interpretations out there. And of course soteric issues, because they are esoteric (ie, hidden, involved, abstract, related to certain kinds of soul searches, etc), have a long history of apparently giving many people the excuse of going off on various kinds of interpretive tangents, for various reasons. Speculatively, Mauri From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 09:43:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:43:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 52367 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:43:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:43:39 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CB6F526315F for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:43:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002901c28ccd$cd460e60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: The word Sufi... Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:38:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all of you, It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. It is said to have German origin from year 1821. The book by the author F.A.G. Th=F6luck is titled: "Ssufismus sive Theosoph= ia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is interesting= . As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting=20 to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading took place= at all. Someone says that the word has a distinct sound called 'SSSUUUFFF'. Do any of you have anything on this ? from M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nama_sivam@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 09:48:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 17:48:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 20131 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 17:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 17:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web12903.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.174.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 17:48:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20021115174812.35752.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.199.232.94] by web12903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:48:12 PST Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:48:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: newmember To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002901c28ccd$cd460e60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: nama siva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=128033841 X-Yahoo-Profile: nama_sivam pl.circulate my introduction to all members Meditation_- visual images -Dear friend, I am Namasivayam, born in 1954 in Madurai and settled in Chennai, Tamilnadu, India. Between the ages of 35-45. I have suffered a lot due to various illness. As advised by my cardiologist, I learned Simplified kundalini yoga of Vedathri Maharishi. Now I have fully recovered from all my illness through practicing meditation. During the course of meditation I have been experiencing visual images of Cosmic Travel. As suggested by my intuition I have recorded about 300 images with corresponding verses taken from the THIRUMANTHRAM of THIRUMOOLAR. Here I am giving some images. I have discussed with my co-meditators about this. But most of them revealed that they have not been experienced such thing. I do not know Whether Iam going to right direction or not. pl. see my photos and offer your opinion http://photos.yahoo.com/cosmic_travel see also my web page http://travel.vsnl.com/meditation/index.html pl. visit www.geocities.com/siva_sivam2001/meditation/1.html My Email Id: m_namasivayam@vsnl.net *************** __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 15 10:03:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 70548 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 18:03:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:03:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: An example of Brian/Brigitte's "true scholarship"?? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1754 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte can write to Wes as follows: "I am very glad to discuss ideas if brought 'seriously' but not just in polemic unserious way as you do, which show no evidence of true scolarship." And then later in the same post, Brian/Brigitte (no doubt, as a "true scholar") can make the following claim: ". . . theos talk . . . [is] evidently a true meeting ground for crazed out crack pots who believe in 'free energy solar engines' and so on. Exceptions are Steve Stubbs and a very, very, few others." Please remember as you read B/B's words about "very, very, few others" that there are currently 170 subscribers to Theos-Talk. As Rochus Boerner writes: ". . . the true skeptic refrains from ad hominem attacks and name calling while the pseudoskeptic elevates them to an art form." One might hope that a "true scholar" would also refrain from such ad hominem slurs, too! The "crazed out crack pots" remark by B/B may indeed be a new art form. And one wonders why Steve Stubbs gets a free pass from Brian/Brigitte. He also holds what appears to be "crazed out crack pot" ideas. If I mistake not, Steve Stubbs believes: (1) HPB was not a charlatan, was not a pathological liar. (2) Olcott was a trustworthy witness to numerous encounters he had with the Mahatmas. Steve believes in the existence of M and KH based (at least in part) on Olcott's testimony. (3) Some of the Mahatma letters were probably phenomenally produced. (4) HPB had access to real esoteric documents not accesssible to the scholarly world. etc. etc. Yet if the majority of us on Theos-Talk might hold similar if not identical views, are we "crazed out crack pots"? B/B, what would we do for entertainment, if we didn't have you? :) Daniel From alexlaural@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 10:33:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: alexlaural@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 18:33:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 61273 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 18:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 18:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web10108.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.130.58) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 18:33:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20021115183335.25784.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.80.2.48] by web10108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:33:35 PST Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3DD4AC85.13475.1B3770@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Laura Leshchiner X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=115544926 X-Yahoo-Profile: alexlaural Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Adelasie, you wrote: . Theosophists have important work to do, and we can be effective, on inner planes and outer, but we have to be in control of ourselves first. So along comes this annoying stinging insect, and we get busy slapping at it, and forget all about the fact that our survival is at stake. One of Judge"s student (E. August Neresheimer) said about him: Whatever question or problem arose he would view it starting with his basic ideal of the spiritual unity of all things, the Self; sublime harmony was contained in its comprehension, and a mode of adjustment for everything found in its source..............He was non-argumentative because he thought by argument no one could be finally convinced "each has to hew out his own conviction". Laura Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From equi108@aol.com Fri Nov 15 10:51:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Equi108@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 18:51:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 48202 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 18:51:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 18:51:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d02.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.34) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 18:51:28 -0000 Received: from Equi108@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.88.2113fbad (3964) for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:51:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <88.2113fbad.2b069c2c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:51:24 EST Subject: How do I get off this mailing list? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10637 From: equi108@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=36575184 X-Yahoo-Profile: equi108 I have been looking for an area to discuss Theosophy, this is obviously not it. Most of the postings discuss theosophists and the petty issues surrounding them. I have unsubscribed from the group but continue to get bombarded with emails containing mindless prattle about the authenticity of this and the motives behind that. How do I stop this junk from cluttering my mailbox? From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 11:08:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:08:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 55049 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:08:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:08:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:08:44 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Clpb-0007W2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:08:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD5465C.CDD70AF6@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:09:16 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > That is an excellent point. Let me get your thoughts on this: a few > weeks ago the NY Times quoted a government official who spoke on > condiion of anonymity. He said the war would be an oil war and that > Bush's intention was to secure a source of oil which would guarantee > his supplies "forever." I have to say, I think this fellow was > telling the truth, although admittedly neither of us knows for > certain. It makes me very uneasy and what particularly bothers me is > that there seems to be no check or balance against Bush's ambitions > anymore. He runs all three branches of the government. He runs the > UN. He runs much of the rest of the world. And now he wants to run > Iraq. I do not feel comfortable with a man I do not trust in the > first placce having such unrestricted power. I hope war can yet be > averted but do not see much hope at this point. Time will tell which > way it goes. I happen to think that the Supreme Court, at this point, is pretty well balanced (3 conservatives, 3 liberals, and 3 swings), and would not like to see any of the latter 6 replaced with a conservative. On the other hand, you can never tell; there have been a number of cases of judges changing political stripes once their sinecure was assured. Yes, Bush has complete control now, but it is limited by the fact that his margin of control is small, and there are another set of elections in two years. One difference between a republic and a democracy is that, in a republic, those making the rules are judged more on the results of their actions then on their actions themselves. An unpopular action with a popular result can take place in a republic, but is almost impossible in a pure democracy (a republic is more karma based, if you will). I am just thankful that the U.S. doesn't have a parliamentary system; otherwise, we would have had somebody like H. Ross Perot (do you think they modeled the Ferengi on him?) or Ralph Nader as the major power in this country. Frankly, I think the Democrats brought it upon themselves; they have been far more interested in stopping Bush than in putting forward any positive ideas of their own. When a group of prominent Democrats have to be taught dignity by a professional wrestler, you KNOW they're in trouble. On the other hand, I am greatly afraid of too much power going to the FBI, such as full access to every American's email and financial transactions without a warrant; luckily, it seems like an issue that conservatives and liberals can agree upon. > > I assume that is a joke. There's a term for those who don't obey the > > government in every particular in Arab countries: corpses. > > One is required to obey the government everywhere, Bart. Unless you > are wealthy and know when to keep your mouth shut you are required to > obey the government here. Leona Helmsley had half of that but missed > the other half. Ditto with John Gotti. A) The United States has fines, jail sentences, and probation. The death penalty, although it occurs far too much, is still not imposed anywhere nearly as much as it is in Arab countries. B) Leona Helmsley went to jail because she was a woman in a man's business, and, even worse, good at it. If she were a man, she would have just paid a substantial fine. She didn't open her mouth until AFTER she was being treated in an unjust way. Note that much of the admitted testimony had NOTHING to do with her crimes, and EVERYTHING to do with negative PR. > In most countries the law only applies > if you don't know someone or pay a bribe. Most countries also do not > have the phenomenal number of laws that we have, a point made by > sociologists. Ah, now we can get back to Theosophy. There is a theosophical principle (well, like virtually all theosophical principles, it is by no means unique to theosophy) that, while good intentions are key, they are not enough. You must also know what the good is. There is a wonderful book called THE DEATH OF COMMON SENSE, which explains that the ridiculous overload of laws in the United States started with excellent intentions. The idea was that if the law was clear in all cases, then nobody would be at the mercy of the whim of some petty bureaucrat with his/her hand out for bribes. The problem with this was twofold: You can't have a finite number of laws cover an infinite number of cases, and, as laws multiply, it is far too easy to have laws overlap. The result is that it is virtually impossible to exist without breaking some law or other (as many of the overlapping ones are contradictory, requiring to do something that you are not allowed to do), that petty bureaucrats are almost always required to say, "no.", putting EVERYBODY at the mercy of some petty bureaucrat, often with his/her hand out for bribes. > Try a thought experiment. Imagine that you have entered a time > machine and been transported five hundred years into the future. > Imagine further that you are busy acquainting yourself with the then > current state of affairs in Palestine. I'm not quoting the whole piece back, but things like this are the reason I continue to respect you in spite of our disagreements. > There is a third possibilty which will require vision and strong > ethical commitment in which baby steps are taken to bring about a > reconciliation with the Arabs. The idea of a "Jewish state" in which > everyone else is unwelcome would have to be abandoned and Arabs would > have to be given the opportunity to participate and take an interest > in the welfare of the state at every level. That currently is the case in Israel, proper, at least in law and theory (and might very well happen in practice if peace ever breaks out). > Then as the Arabs come > to the ascendant position they could be caused to think of the Jewish > minority as playing an important part in the community and therefore > serving the self interest of the Arab majority. That is a major part of Israel's dilemma. If they annex the West Bank, the Jews will become a minority in their own country within a decade or two, and, all things being equal, there will be genocide against the Jews. But if they give the Palestinians a full-fledged state, then they will be creating a nation dedicated to their destruction, without secure borders. If they commit genocide, then they are violating the very principles upon which their country was created. Israel already tried giving the West Bank back to Jordan; Jordan wouldn't take it. Now.... > The ideal would be > to create an Arab state in which Jews and Arabs coexist congenially, > unlike the situation everywhere else in the Muslim world. I think > with sustained commitment it could be done. I believe that most Israelis would be willing to do this. I also believe that most Palestinians would not. > The Kahanist alternative, which is so popular today, While it is more popular today than it was even 3 years ago, I don't think that it has much popularity. Frankly, I think that the solution would be indirect bribery. For example, the schools Col. Olcott founded in India are a good model; very high quality schools, so high quality that parents would be willing to give up their intolerance so their children can attend. Corporations giving good jobs at good salaries, but any religious infighting will result in termination. Give the people positive rather than negative incentive to get along with each other. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 11:11:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:11:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 37914 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:11:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:11:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:11:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Clsa-0004XR-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:11:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD54714.81A834F6@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:12:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <3DD51C18.B9363CFA@sprynet.com> <001e01c28cca$77dab6e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > If the Jews won't share the ground or area with others, then they > really have a problem. Please look at the literature from both sides, and see who it is who will not share the ground or area with others. The Jews have offered the Palestinians self-rule, and the Koch party, which advocates the exile or execution of the Arabs, is still not allowed to sit in Parliament. The Palestinians still declare as their goal the elimination of every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Middle East. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 11:18:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:18:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 74950 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:18:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:18:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:18:15 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Clyo-0006eY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:18:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD54896.ED09D3F7@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:18:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? References: <88.2113fbad.2b069c2c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 equi108@aol.com wrote: > How do I stop this junk from cluttering my mailbox? Start a thread about what you DO want to talk about, rather than complaining that we are not psychic and therefore don't come up with the topics you're thinking of on our own? Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 11:23:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 31707 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2002 19:23:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:23:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD5465C.CDD70AF6@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 643 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.81.24 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Frankly, I think that the solution would be indirect bribery. For > example, the schools Col. Olcott founded in India are a good model; very > high quality schools, so high quality that parents would be willing to > give up their intolerance so their children can attend. Corporations > giving good jobs at good salaries, but any religious infighting will > result in termination. Give the people positive rather than negative > incentive to get along with each other. I don't know if you realize it or not, but you just put what I have been saying all along in your own words. From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 15 11:39:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:39:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 19606 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:39:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:39:16 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CmJ9-0005gK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:39:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD54D82.260904FE@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:39:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > I don't know if you realize it or not, but you just put what I have > been saying all along in your own words. Well, I did admit that you gave me the idea. The major difference I think is that I still advocate a "two state" solution, in the long run. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 11:40:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:40:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 33789 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:40:26 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A9C28263301 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:40:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c28cde$1ce39360$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <88.2113fbad.2b069c2c@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:35:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi >>no name<< and all of you, One trick could be, that you start teach all the other interest friends here at theos-talk - who thinks like you ! This could be a better idea, than to be disappointed. from M. Sufilight with a friendly smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? > I have been looking for an area to discuss Theosophy, this is obviously not > it. Most of the postings discuss theosophists and the petty issues > surrounding them. I have unsubscribed from the group but continue to get > bombarded with emails containing mindless prattle about the authenticity of > this and the motives behind that. > How do I stop this junk from cluttering my mailbox? > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From equi108@aol.com Fri Nov 15 11:58:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Equi108@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 19:58:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 82827 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 19:58:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 19:58:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 19:58:43 -0000 Received: from Equi108@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.bd.2a64d8df (3964) for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:58:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:58:30 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10637 From: equi108@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=36575184 X-Yahoo-Profile: equi108 Namaste Y'all My frustration is I see the "cyber" theosophy sites as getting to involved with words, writers and the politics of the society. Quoting chapter and verse from SD and arguing over the legitimacy of writings is missing the point. It does not matter from where the information came, what matters is how useful it is for you at this point on your journey. If people get to caught up in the works of yesterday, we will not move on. Generation of original thoughts and ideas is creating a new reality, mulling over the thoughts of others is meaningless as we cannot understand where they were at the time those thoughts were created. The great teachers come to show us the way, let's not end up worshiping their finger. Steve From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 12:28:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 20:28:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 70638 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 20:28:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 20:28:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 20:28:09 -0000 Received: from pool0319.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.31.64] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Cn4S-0005Eb-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:28:08 -0800 To: Cc: "AA-Bruce" , "AA-Bruce" Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:24:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20021115183335.25784.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Laura: This is such good advice. Nice hearing from you after a while. Others will too. Thanks Dal -----Original Message----- From: Laura Leshchiner [mailto:alexlaural@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:34 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Dear Adelasie, you wrote: . Theosophists have important work to do, and we can be effective, on inner planes and outer, but we have to be in control of ourselves first. So along comes this annoying stinging insect, and we get busy slapping at it, and forget all about the fact that our survival is at stake. One of Judge"s student (E. August Neresheimer) said about him: Whatever question or problem arose he would view it starting with his basic ideal of the spiritual unity of all things, the Self; sublime harmony was contained in its comprehension, and a mode of adjustment for everything found in its source..............He was non-argumentative because he thought by argument no one could be finally convinced "each has to hew out his own conviction". Laura Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 12:28:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 20:28:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 62218 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 20:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 20:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 20:28:22 -0000 Received: from pool0319.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.31.64] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Cn4c-0005Eb-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:28:18 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:24:33 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <002901c28ccd$cd460e60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 15 2002 Re: "Sufi" -- ( also "white," and "pure") Dear Friend: Here is an entry from H P B's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 311 SUFFISM (Gr.). From the root of Sophia, "Wisdom ". A mystical sect in Persia something like the Vedantins; though very strong in numbers, none but very intelligent men join it. They claim, and very justly, the possession of the esoteric philosophy and doctrine of true Mohammedanism. The Suffi (or Sofi) doctrine is a good deal in touch with Theosophy, inasmuch as it preaches one universal creed, and outward respect and tolerance for every popular exoteric faith. It is also in touch with Masonry. The Suffis have four degrees and four stages of initiation:1st, probationary, with a strict outward observance of Mussulman rites, the hidden meaning of each ceremony and dogma being explained to the candidate; 2nd, metaphysical training; 3rd, the "Wisdom" degree, when the candidate is initiated into the innermost nature of things; and 4 final Truth, when the Adept attains divine powers, and complete union with the One Universal Deity in ecstacy or Samâdhi. Other references in the same book will be found on pp 36, 105, 118, 156, 158, 216, On p. 280 the mysterious force ROWANEE is mentioned and H P B prints there a contribution by W. W. W WESTCOTT ROWHANEE (Eg.) or Er-Roohanee. is the Magic of modern Egypt, supposed to proceed from Angels and Spirits, that is Genii, and by the use of the mystery names of Allah; they distinguish two forms-Ilwee, that is the Higher or White Magic; and Suflee and Sheytanee, the Lower or Black Demoniac Magic. There is also Es-Seemuja, which is deception or conjuring. Opinions differ as to the importance of a branch of Magic called Darb el Mendel, or as Barker calls it in English, the Mendal: by this is meant a form of artificial clairvoyance, exhibited by a young boy before puberty, or a virgin, who, as the result of self-fascination by gazing on a pool of ink in the hand, with coincident use of incense and incantation, sees certain scenes of real life passing over its surface. Many Eastern travellers have narrated instances, as E. W. Lane in his Modern Egyptians and his Thousand and One Nights, and E. B. Barker; the incidents have been introduced also into many works of fiction, such as Marryat's Phantom Ship, and a similar idea is interwoven with the story of Rose Mary and the Beryl stone, a poem by Rossetti. For a superficial attempt at explanation, see the Quarterly Review, No.117 [w.w.w.] In another place (same book, p. 105) H P B indicates there is a connection between the Sufis and the Druzes of Lebanon and Syria DRUZES . A large sect, numbering about 100,000 adherents, living on Mount Lebanon in Syria. Their rites are very mysterious, and no traveller, who has written anything about them, knows for a certainty the whole truth. They are the Sufis of Syria. They resent being called Druzes as an insult, but call themselves the "disciples of Hamsa ", their Messiah, who came to them in the ninth century from the "Land of the Word of God", which land and word they kept religiously secret. The Messiah to come will be the same Hamsa, but called Hakem-the All-Healer ". (See Isis Unveiled, II 308, et seq.) In the Glossary (p. 36) another reference associates them with the "Assassins" ASSASSINS . A masonic and mystic order founded by Hassan Sabah in Persia, in the eleventh century. The word is a European perversion of "Hassan ", which forms the chief part of the name. They were simply Sufis and addicted, according to the tradition, to hascheesl-eating, in order to bring about celestial visions. As shown by our late brother, Kenneth Mackenzie, "they were teachers of the secret doctrines of Islamism; they encouraged mathematics and philosophy, and produced many valuable works. The chief of the Order was called Sheik-el-Jebel, translated the 'Old Man of the Mountains', and, as their Grand Master, lie possessed power of life and death.' ( p. 36) Thus the secret "societies" including the ancient order of "Masons," (builders, cosmocratores) was shown to be united in their teachings concerning the origins and purpose of the World and our universe. Another entry of interest is here given ( p. 37) ASSYRIAN HOLY SCRIPTURES. Orientalists show seven such hooks: the Books of Mamit, of Worship, of Interpretations, of Going to Hades; two Prayer Books (Kanmagarri and Kanmikri: Talbot) and the Kantolité, the lost Assyrian Psalter. (p. 37) ASSYRIAN TREE OF LIFE . "Asherah" (q.v.). It is translated in the Bible by "grove ' and occurs 30 times. It is called an "idol"; and Maachah, the grandmother of Asa, King of Jerusalem, is accused of having made for herself such an idol, which was a lingham. For centuries this was a religious rite in Judća. But the original Asherah was a pillar with seven branches on each side surmounted by a globular flower with three projecting rays, and no phallic stone, as the Jews made of it, but a metaphysical symbol. "Merciful One, who dead to life raises! was the prayer uttered before the Asherah, on the banks of the Euphrates. The "Merciful One ", was neither the personal god of the Jews who brought the "grove" from their captivity, nor any extra- cosmic god, but THE HIGHER TRIAD IN MAN SYMBOLIZED BY THE GLOBULAR FLOWER WITH ITS THREE RAYS. ( p. 37) Further investigation shows a relationship with "Hamsa" as follows: (p. 134) HAMSA OR HANSA (Sk.) "Swan or goose", according to the Orientalists ; a mystical bird in Occultism analogous to the Rosicrucian Pelican. Tile sacred mystic name which, when preceded by that of KALA (infinite time), i.e. Kalahansa, is name of Parabrahm ; meaning the " Bird out of space and time". Hence Brahmâ (male)is called Hansa Vahana "the Vehicle of Hansa (the Bird). We find the same idea in the Zohar, where Ain Suph (the endless and infinite) is said to descend into the universe, for purposes of manifestation, using Adam Kadmon (Humanity) as a chariot or vehicle. HAMSA (Arab.). The founder of the mystic sect of the Druzes of Mount Lebanon. (See "Druzes" .) [ see above ] (see MAHATMA LETTERS p. 116, Modern Panarion p. 375, S D II p. 27; H P B Articles III 281... "Lamas and Druzes" -- showing a relationship with the Tibetan Esoteric philosophies. ISIS UNVEILED makes a very interesting reading if one is in search of evidence relating to the past of Theosophy as seen in and at the base of every ancient Theogony, Religion or Secret Society. These were also closely related to the Egyptian and Greek MYSTERIES. Best wishes Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:38 AM To: Theos-Talk Subject: Theos-World The word Sufi... Hi all of you, It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. It is said to have German origin from year 1821. The book by the author F.A.G. Thöluck is titled: "Ssufismus sive Theosophia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is interesting. As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading took place at all. Someone says that the word has a distinct sound called 'SSSUUUFFF'. Do any of you have anything on this ? from M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 12:40:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 20:40:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 50454 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 20:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 20:40:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 20:39:59 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 087DA262AA0 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:39:58 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002501c28ce6$6e5005a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:34:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Steve (<>???) and all of you, Thanks for your kind reply. Try this article, which a posted just a few days ago to Bakthi Ananda Goswami. (November 14th 2002) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8734 I think this article should be able to get you going - for a start. What do you think about this and the article ? Here it is: *Theosophy - and Wisdom Organisations and Their Mode of Operation * *** Written in private by Morten Sufilight *** Theosophical Designs and The Mode of Operation (Chapter 1) I will start with the ordinary term called - Spiritual Development - or the spiritual Seekers journey on the Path of initiation. The spiritual Seeker has at the beginning of the journey and somewhat further - often the view, that Spiritual Development is a journey or a series of journeys, which lead to perfection. - There is a Path and a Spiritual Guide. That which often confuses the spiritual seeker, is, whether it is literally a journey or a metaphorical journey. The truth is both matters are of importance. The spiritual Seeker often has to take long and exhausting journeys towards perfection. There is both an inner and an outer journey to go through. The one relates to the body. The other to the mental or the consciousness. Thereafter the Spiritual Guide comes in to question. A personality, which isn't to be worshipped blindly, because that is exactly NOT the idea with having a spiritual guide; or teacher. Such a teacher comes, teaches and guides a group of people at a certain place and at a more or less fixed period of time. The teacher offers herself or himself by he's or hers presence. Those who are interested have to offer themselves as students. The actual step - to become a student is difficult to make, even so if the student believes that he or she really want to learn, - because the student has to fight with different kinds of psychological emotional or mental blockages - especially fear, doubt, uncertainty, and ignorance. Said with psychological ulterior motive - the student wants to learn, but doesn't want to give. If the student doesn't want to give the teacher his or hers attention, then the student won't be able to learn. The more down to earth person's minds are these days - in many ways today very unstable and capricious. He or she maybe one day want to dabble into Spiritual Development (for instance a version of Raja-yoga) and esoterical teachings, - and then the next day - going out with friends getting stoned in alcohol - is highest on the agenda. And then after a couple of weeks Spiritual development is an important again - at least a little. And most people in these days have a good deal of build in opposition, which has to be overcome - before the step can be taken wholly and totally. It may be that the Seeker has some background of self-development. Sometimes this can be a drawback, because it can make him or her think that he/she knows more than he/she does. This is showing his/hers lack of humility, and lack of recognition of how much one really doesn't know anything about. In the teachers (here a male) effort to give all he can to the disciple, the teacher must reveal himself and his teaching little by little. If he where to give his full concentration at too early a stage, the disciple would not be able to absorb the teachings. Different aspects of the teacher are seen at different times. Some people even think that they see actual faults in the teacher. These strangely enough, are generally reflections of the faults of the student, which are coming to the surface. It is in order to place the disciple in a condition in which she/he can become accessible to the understanding of truth, by an inner sense, that the teacher takes on the burden of the student. He may have to ask for the sacrifice of things, which the student prizes the most. This often from good reasons, which will be explained, when time is right. When deprived of the teacher, the student will often be guided by his/hers own lower personality ("the commanding self"). A student at such a stage may attach to any centre or organisation of attraction, which offers Spiritual Development, and which the student finds exciting and interesting etc. This is because the student is at a stage where Spiritual Organisations has value - or that which the student thinks is Spiritual organisations, - but the student hasn't yet developed his/hers sense of discrimination. This situation may make the half-mature disciple proud, and she/he may set himself/herself up as a teacher, especially if the teacher has given him/her some authority. This sort of development is responsible for the fragmentation of true teachings, and their absorption by pseudo-Theosophical organisations, certain New Age Organisations or the like. A sign of a deteriorated system is when the members seek only mystical experience, "openings" or illumination without realising that this, if true, will have a certain effect upon them. That is, Spiritual Development without opening the heart-centre or the centre for compassion in a proper manner is bad, and should be avoided. The same goes for Meditation. Meditation gives some sort of calmness. But it is a preparatory step, and gives calmness only as a 'signpost'. When the calmness has been attained some people become addicted to it, and their progress is frozen at that point. They have become meditation-addicts. This is like the fat man (or woman), who must eat sugar because he has developed a craving for it. Sugar is a means to an end, not an end. For him it has become an end. Sugar is food and fuel. For this man it is a shackle on his progress, making him heavier and heavier. The same is true of some of the modern techniques or imitation cults - like uncontrolled spiritual dancing or certain forms of psychotherapy - for instance people seeking their inner 'release-scream' or where one 'blow of steam' etc. People who take these things up have forgotten, what spiritual development really is - i.e. Theosophy (wisdom of the gods, or wisdom of God), to produce the perfect being - the God of wisdom within. They are therefore only dabbling. They use their experiences to convince themselves that they are progressing. Conviction is not a fact. But, these imitation cults mentioned above could in certain few cases lead some people to spiritual heights - but they themselves are only beginner manoeuvres. One often has to learn, what Spiritual Development really is first. Some throws them selves into the first and best they can lay their eyes on. Others are thinking more carefully and deeply, and find the right method, or what is the right method for them. This happens best in groups in this age of information and communication - where a new paradigm is shinning more and more bright in the horizon. But also some times alone. Being alone or not is a matter of balance. But also very often - the place, the organisation and the method one as a newcomer or lesser experienced Seeker wants or thinks is the best for oneself and perhaps even others - is really not so. They - the newcomers - have a tendency - because of a still remaining egoistic fragment in their character - to join those organisations, follow those methods, which they them selves feel comfortable about - and that with rather egoistical motives, whether they are conscious of it or not. A major reason is often that, - what - one really needs to learn - one really doesn't know much about. Only the initiate of the higher level knows - really knows. These newcomers are often not aware of, that there are many paths within the teachings of Theosophy. (See "The Secret Doctrine", II, p.191, on the paths). In the following it could be of interest to keep the history of Theosophy or the Wisdom Tradition in mind. One can read about the Theosophical history or the history of the Wisdom Tradition somewhere on the Internet - by searching. Let us revert to the Spiritual journey. From time to time suitable teachers of the Wisdom Tradition has been sent by their Masters or guides to travel to a certain place and establish the teaching. Such teachers have an influence on various levels. Those above mentioned Spiritual teachers work has not only been to give people Spiritual guidance and education. It has also been to prepare the ground for further development of the living progress of the Path of Wisdom. There are also minor emissaries who are sent out to teach and prepare the ground for further development. These people has been known to set themselves up as ultimate authorities, because part of their training is to test their loyalty to the whole School of Wisdom, which is as generally known consisting of one entity. But, if, a teacher of the Wisdom tradition dies, or there is a gap in the teaching, what then? The interesting thing is, that the very gap is a part of the training. You may explain certain things to a child : shall we say teach her or him not to do certain things. Then you will pretend to go out of the house - and observe her or him. According to how well he/she has learned, so will he/she react. In this 'absence exercise', precisely the same thing happens to the teacher of Wisdom, though many are not conscious of it. After the disappearance from the field of a teacher of Wisdom, the followers will divide themselves into groups, in accordance with their strength and weaknesses. Some will assume control of others. They may be good or bad, and this will be shown by their reaction to - the second teacher - when he/she arrives. If they realise he/she is their teacher, then they have merely been developing themselves and can mature. But if they have become atrophied, they will be too blind to recognize the Spirituality of the very teacher, for which appearance they have been prepared. They may attach themselves, in default, to a different group. (And this groups existence is maybe no coincidence.) Again well and good : providing they return to the mainstream of teaching when it is offered to them again. This is the test of whether they have overcome the lower self. They will realise, if they are sufficiently developed, that the person who appears to be 'second' teacher is in reality - the first in importance. Life is reversed for the undeveloped man (the newcomer), and he/she will behave in accordance with this. The first teacher does not make life easier, in most cases, for the generality of disciples. He/She will teach them things, which are only of use when the second teacher arrives and reality falls into place. The object of this is twofold. In the first place, certain valuable thoughts have been given to the disciples. In the second, they are tested by the means of these ideas. Just as our western psychologists give odd-shaped pieces of wood to people, to see how they put them together, teachers of Wisdom will give odd-pieces of material of - mental kind - to his/her followers. - If they try to fit these together however, and to make a pattern in his/hers - absences, - they are becoming 'fossilised'. Because, the Wisdom tradition has to show that the object of mankind is not to construct idols, but to follow a supreme pattern, which is learnt piece by piece. Quite obviously the semi-blind among the people, during their 'waiting-period', will try to work out their own interpretation. They may, as have been done in the past, write books to explain what they have learned. This is the danger-point, because when a man/woman is accepted as, say, a philosopher (of wisdom) because she/he has written a book explaining a philosophy, he/she will not readily accept, that she/he only have been 'fumbling'. He/She has quite possibly become a prisoner of his/hers lower self. The self-conceit of the man/woman is now bound up with his/hers 'creation', the book or the method, which he/she has used to organise the fragments, which he/she has. He/she is probably or possibly lost - for the cause. In order to break through this shell of accretions and fossilisations, the - second teacher - will tend to act in a different, perhaps in a certain dramatically different manner, from the original one. This could happen, to break the 'idols', which have been formed out of the thoughts, which were originally given. So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about. When a system of teaching of wisdom is in a period of fallowness, because the one who propagated it is dead, then there comes a period of stagnation. This period can last between 10 years, 15 years or more. In the time, which passes, the group of people who is affected by the system are sieved by natural means. Some wander away. Others carry on automatically not really knowing, what they are doing. They are now 'frozen', though they do not know they are. The blind may try to lead the blinder. This takes the form of assumption of authority by those who were given some sort of authority in the original mandate. These are the people in the most dangerous position, because the longer they remain 'orphaned' the more strongly their lower self (or the three lower bodies) asserts it self. Others may modify the teachings in a learned and personal way. Some certainly fall a prey to cults, which have come into being in order to serve them. The people who joins these are at great pains to explain why they consider, that they represent the same kind of teaching - and this is important. It is important, because it shows the Theosophist or the real spiritually minded, very clearly, that the people who try to explain - are in fact troubled by conscience. Somewhere inside them, they know, that they are identifying themselves with an imitation, or a second-best. But they are supported by their lower bodies or lower personality, - and this is too strong for them. Those can be helped by being lead to think in new thinking-patterns and systems. It is via the conscience, that one finds the path forward, - thereby will be able to remove the limitations of the lower personality. Imagine a group of people shipwrecked. They think there is no hope of rescue. They find a raft, and are glad. After a time more people come along in a big boat. But the first people will not leave the raft, because they have become used to it. They may have convinced themselves, that it is actually a boat. (So it is to some philosophical or religious people today.) The points at which the mystical traditions, which are still alive, are in contact with each other cannot really be explained by the means of books. And yet people continue to write books showing how they have found this and that point of resemblance. The truth can only be found by actual experience, - and easier by awareness on such aspect as I have touch upon. To sink ecstasy in Wisdom is better than to sink Wisdom in ecstasy. The Wisdom Tradition teaches by several different systems, and not only by one, - one book or teen books, BUT also by thousands and thousands of books - and the dogmatic ones doesn't want to listen. from M. Sufilight with his sufi friends...and a big grin... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:58 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? > Namaste Y'all > > My frustration is I see the "cyber" theosophy sites as getting to > involved with words, writers and the politics of the society. Quoting chapter > and verse from SD and arguing over the legitimacy of writings is missing the > point. It does not matter from where the information came, what matters is > how useful it is for you at this point on your journey. If people get to > caught up in the works of yesterday, we will not move on. Generation of > original thoughts and ideas is creating a new reality, mulling over the > thoughts of others is meaningless as we cannot understand where they were at > the time those thoughts were created. The great teachers come to show us the > way, let's not end up worshiping their finger. > > Steve > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From adelasie@surfari.net Fri Nov 15 12:42:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 20:42:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 24904 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 20:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 20:42:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 20:42:21 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAFKgHAZ003506 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:42:19 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:41:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: <3DD4EB94.4839.1118B7D@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20021115183335.25784.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3DD4AC85.13475.1B3770@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Dear Laura, Judge was a wonderful example of one who is able to "be all things to all men." His writings are full of hints and information about how to deal with negative assaults, and he certainly dealt with many of them in his lifetime. One thing he said that always stays in my mind, is that in an argument, our best approach is in our own mind to take the place of the other, to see the subject from the other's point of view. In one sense of it, all points of view are valid, given their perspective. But if we can enlarge our own perspective to include more than our own opinion, our own bias, we can begin to be tolerant of others, and to understand that amazing diversity that is humanity. If we accept, after all, that all life is essentially one, then all our brothers and sisters represent different facets of the one truth. Thanks for your comments. Adelasie On 15 Nov 2002 at 10:33, Laura Leshchiner wrote: > > Dear Adelasie, > you wrote: > . Theosophists have important > work to do, and we can be effective, on inner planes and outer, but we > have to be in control of ourselves first. So along comes this annoying > stinging insect, and we get busy slapping at it, and forget all about > the fact that our survival is at stake. > > One of Judge"s student (E. August Neresheimer) said about him: > Whatever question or problem arose he would view it starting with his > basic ideal of the spiritual unity of all things, the Self; sublime > harmony was contained in its comprehension, and a mode of adjustment > for everything found in its source..............He was > non-argumentative because he thought by argument no one could be > finally convinced "each has to hew out his own conviction". > > > Laura > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 14:28:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 22:28:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 65352 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 22:28:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 22:28:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 22:28:56 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 60C6148047B for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:28:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001101c28cf5$a729b600$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:23:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dallas and all of you, Thanks for your very kind answer Dallas. The following could maybe enhance something, while keeping in mind, that I hold the below word "Sufi" to be the same as the word "Theosophist" - as the Ancient Wisdom Teaching of all ages past: The Sufis are also called - "heart spies", "the lovers", "the builders", "the people of truth", "the near ones", "the Masters", "the pillars", "the rose", --- or --- "Mutassawif", "the Blamworhty", "those in white clothes" (a kind of 'clairvoyant' version), ...etc. ... The Sufis claim that a certain kind of mental and other activity can produce, under special conditions and with perticular efforts, what is termed a higher working of the mind, leading to special perceptions whose apparatus is latent in the ordinary man, Sufism is therefore the transcending of ordinary limitations ... It would maybe reduce the problems of the student to learn that it is said, with all the authority of the Jewish Encyclopedia, that the Hebrew experts regard the Cabbala and the Hasidim, the Jewish mystics, as originating with Sufism or a tradition identical with it. (*Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. XI, pp. 579,580,581 et passim. Jewish sages regarded by Western Scholars as following the Spanish Sufi Schools include: Juda Halevi of Toledo, in his Cuzari; Moses ben Ezra of Granada; Josef ben Zadiq of Cordoba, in his Microcosmus; Samuel ben Tibbon; Simtob ben Falaquera.*) Neither would it encourage him/her to hear, that although the Sufis themselves claim that their knowledge has existed for thousands of years, they deny that is is - derivative, - affirming that it is equivalence of the Hermetic, Phytagorean and Plantonic streams. (Identity of Sufi ideas with ancient Egyptian, Phytagorean and Platonic schools noted; by M.A. Ubicini, Letters on Turkey (London, 1856). Our still uninitiated student may by now be thoroughly confues; but he/she had a glimpse of the problems of studying Sufi ideas, even if only because he for himself can witness for himself the unproductive struggle of the scholastics. ... Since Sufi study is carried out mainly by direct methods (and it has known to be conveyed entirely by gesture, symbol and demonstration), when we lose this element in our study, relying upon books, we must be at the mercy of those who advance al kinds of subjective theories. ... Serious problems in locating genuine and relevant Sufi ideas and practises exist, too, for any student who has alreday met a watered-down, generalized or partial variety of Sufism, wheather in the East or in the West. There are many hundreds of people in America and Europe who practise 'dervish dance, whirling or turning' in spite of the fact that it is psecifically on record in easily accessible dervish litterature, that this practise was especially, precribed, for local reasons, by Rumi (A great Sufi and poet; d. 1273) for the people of Asia Minor in the region of Iconium. (Shamsudin Ahmad El-Aflaki, Munaqib El-Arfin: trans. Redhouse as "The Acts of Adepts" (London 1881); reprinted in facsimile ed. Kingston as "Legends of the Sufis" (London 1965). See also El-Ghazali, "Alchemy of Happiness".) ****** There is the awkward fact, that the so-called Companions of the Bench - the Ashab as-Safa - are traditionally soppposed to be the sufis of the time of Mohammed (d. 632). It is said, that they formed themselves in to an esoteric group in the year 623 A. D. And that their name is a derivation from the phrase Ashab as-Safa. "Sawfa" meaning "piety" and "saff" (contracted from the phrase 'First Rank of the Worhty'). "saff" - "safran" - "sif" - "sign" - "design" ..... *** These are the words taken in part from the Afghan Sufi - Idries Shah (d.1996), who lived England. *** To the reader: Feel free to enlighten us all... from M. Sufilight with some new sounds of..."free cultural mixing"...<:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? > Nov 15 2002 > > Re: "Sufi" -- ( also "white," and "pure") > > Dear Friend: > > Here is an entry from H P B's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 311 > > SUFFISM (Gr.). From the root of Sophia, "Wisdom ". A mystical sect in > Persia something like the Vedantins; though very strong in numbers, > none but very intelligent men join it. They claim, and very justly, > the possession of the esoteric philosophy and doctrine of true > Mohammedanism. The Suffi (or Sofi) doctrine is a good deal in touch > with Theosophy, inasmuch as it preaches one universal creed, and > outward respect and tolerance for every popular exoteric faith. It is > also in touch with Masonry. The Suffis have four degrees and four > stages of initiation:1st, probationary, with a strict outward > observance of Mussulman rites, the hidden meaning of each ceremony and > dogma being explained to the candidate; 2nd, metaphysical training; > 3rd, the "Wisdom" degree, when the candidate is initiated into the > innermost nature of things; and 4 final Truth, when the Adept attains > divine powers, and complete union with the One Universal Deity in > ecstacy or Samâdhi. > > Other references in the same book will be found on pp 36, 105, 118, > 156, 158, 216, > > On p. 280 the mysterious force ROWANEE is mentioned and H P B prints > there a contribution by W. W. W WESTCOTT > > ROWHANEE (Eg.) or Er-Roohanee. is the Magic of modern Egypt, supposed > to proceed from Angels and Spirits, that is Genii, and by the use of > the mystery names of Allah; they distinguish two forms-Ilwee, that is > the Higher or White Magic; and Suflee and Sheytanee, the Lower or > Black Demoniac Magic. There is also Es-Seemuja, which is deception or > conjuring. Opinions differ as to the importance of a branch of Magic > called Darb el Mendel, or as Barker calls it in English, the Mendal: > by this is meant a form of artificial clairvoyance, exhibited by a > young boy before puberty, or a virgin, who, as the result of > self-fascination by gazing on a pool of ink in the hand, with > coincident use of incense and incantation, sees certain scenes of real > life passing over its surface. Many Eastern travellers have narrated > instances, as E. W. Lane in his Modern Egyptians and his Thousand and > One Nights, and E. B. Barker; the incidents have been introduced also > into many works of fiction, such as Marryat's Phantom Ship, and a > similar idea is interwoven with the story of Rose Mary and the Beryl > stone, a poem by Rossetti. For a superficial attempt at explanation, > see the Quarterly Review, No.117 [w.w.w.] > > In another place (same book, p. 105) H P B indicates there is a > connection between the Sufis and the Druzes of Lebanon and Syria > > DRUZES . A large sect, numbering about 100,000 adherents, living on > Mount Lebanon in Syria. Their rites are very mysterious, and no > traveller, who has written anything about them, knows for a certainty > the whole truth. They are the Sufis of Syria. They resent being called > Druzes as an insult, but call themselves the "disciples of Hamsa ", > their Messiah, who came to them in the ninth century from the "Land of > the Word of God", which land and word they kept religiously secret. > The Messiah to come will be the same Hamsa, but called Hakem-the > All-Healer ". (See Isis Unveiled, II 308, et seq.) > > In the Glossary (p. 36) another reference associates them with the > "Assassins" > > ASSASSINS . A masonic and mystic order founded by Hassan Sabah in > Persia, in the eleventh century. The word is a European perversion of > "Hassan ", which forms the chief part of the name. > They were simply Sufis and addicted, according to the tradition, to > hascheesl-eating, in order to bring about celestial visions. As shown > by our late brother, Kenneth Mackenzie, "they were teachers of the > secret doctrines of Islamism; they encouraged mathematics and > philosophy, and produced many valuable works. The chief of the Order > was called Sheik-el-Jebel, translated the 'Old Man of the Mountains', > and, as their Grand Master, lie possessed power of life and death.' > ( p. 36) > > Thus the secret "societies" including the ancient order of "Masons," > (builders, cosmocratores) was shown to be united in their teachings > concerning the origins and purpose of the World and our universe. > > Another entry of interest is here given ( p. 37) > > ASSYRIAN HOLY SCRIPTURES. Orientalists show seven such hooks: the > Books of Mamit, of Worship, of Interpretations, of Going to Hades; two > Prayer Books (Kanmagarri and Kanmikri: Talbot) and the Kantolité, the > lost Assyrian Psalter. (p. 37) > > ASSYRIAN TREE OF LIFE . "Asherah" (q.v.). It is translated in the > Bible by "grove ' and occurs 30 times. It is called an "idol"; and > Maachah, the grandmother of Asa, King of Jerusalem, is accused of > having made for herself such an idol, which was a lingham. For > centuries this was a religious rite in Judća. But the original Asherah > was a pillar with seven branches on each side surmounted by a globular > flower with three projecting rays, and no phallic stone, as the Jews > made of it, but a metaphysical symbol. "Merciful One, who dead to life > raises! was the prayer uttered before the Asherah, on the banks of the > Euphrates. The "Merciful One ", was neither the personal god of the > Jews who brought the "grove" from their captivity, nor any extra- > cosmic god, but THE HIGHER TRIAD IN MAN SYMBOLIZED BY THE GLOBULAR > FLOWER WITH ITS THREE RAYS. ( p. 37) > > Further investigation shows a relationship with "Hamsa" as follows: > (p. 134) > HAMSA OR HANSA (Sk.) "Swan or goose", according to the Orientalists ; > a mystical bird in Occultism analogous to the Rosicrucian Pelican. > Tile sacred mystic name which, when preceded by that of KALA (infinite > time), i.e. Kalahansa, is name of Parabrahm ; meaning the " Bird out > of space and time". Hence Brahmâ (male)is called Hansa Vahana "the > Vehicle of Hansa (the Bird). We find the same idea in the Zohar, where > Ain Suph (the endless and infinite) is said to descend into the > universe, for purposes of manifestation, using Adam Kadmon (Humanity) > as a chariot or vehicle. > > HAMSA (Arab.). The founder of the mystic sect of the Druzes of Mount > Lebanon. (See "Druzes" .) [ see above ] (see MAHATMA LETTERS p. 116, > Modern Panarion p. 375, S D II p. 27; H P B Articles III 281... > "Lamas and Druzes" -- showing a relationship with the Tibetan > Esoteric philosophies. > > ISIS UNVEILED makes a very interesting reading if one is in search of > evidence relating to the past of Theosophy as seen in and at the base > of every ancient Theogony, Religion or Secret Society. These were > also closely related to the Egyptian and Greek MYSTERIES. > Best wishes > > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:38 AM > To: Theos-Talk > Subject: Theos-World The word Sufi... > > Hi all of you, > > It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. > It is said to have German origin from year 1821. > The book by the author F.A.G. Thöluck is titled: "Ssufismus sive > Theosophia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin > The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is > interesting. > As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting > to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading took > place at all. > Someone says that the word has a distinct sound called 'SSSUUUFFF'. > > Do any of you have anything on this ? > > from > M. Sufilight > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From bilmer@surfsouth.com Fri Nov 15 14:49:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 22:49:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 28569 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 22:49:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 22:49:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta04.durocom.com) (216.53.195.241) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 22:49:04 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.171.210]) by fl-mta04.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021115224902.YTNZ11451.fl-mta04@default> for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:49:02 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c28cf9$a305b200$d2ab80d8@default> To: References: <002801c28cbc$8ab42fc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:52:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Morten, I'm sure you appreciate the fact that both Bart's and Steve's point of view originates in the same USA. Try being in a middle eastern country and talking publicly about the leader of that country the way Steve talks about the President of this country and see how good the jails are there. Well yes I have spent some time in several Arab countries as well as in Israel. No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact take care of him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can continue to be who he is. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > HI Steve and all of you, > > Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > Maybe more than you would know. > > from > M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Stubbs" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. > > > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - > > extremly > > > nationalistic - country which > > > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they > > do the > > > opposite ! > > > > Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > > mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > > wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he > > wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just > > inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. > > Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > > > > > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > > > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > > > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > > drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > > the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of > > work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were > > reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It > > is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested > > interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. > > > > Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political > > spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. > > > > > And what about the arab countries or India ? > > > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > > it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > > Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > > > > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of > > USA are > > > allowed "FREE MIXING". > > > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > > > > > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? > > > > I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > > > > > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > > important. > > > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > > > > Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going > > to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a > > rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. > > The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get > > beaten too badly. > > > > You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > > accurate view of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Fri Nov 15 15:28:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 23:28:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 92754 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 23:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 23:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 23:28:07 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.17b.119d87cc (3980) for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:28:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17b.119d87cc.2b06dd05@cs.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:28:05 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hmmm, you mentioned "finger"! If my sense of prescience is still working we should soon hear from "Chuck the Heretic"! He He He Hey Chuck, where'd ya go off too? John From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 15 15:56:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 15 Nov 2002 23:56:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 84779 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 23:56:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2002 23:56:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 23:56:57 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id EE247262A9D for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:56:55 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c28d01$f1cb2020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <002801c28cbc$8ab42fc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <001501c28cf9$a305b200$d2ab80d8@default> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:51:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Bill and all of you, Well thanks for that remark of yours. Maybe the following could be of some help. I will give the word to Martin Luther King Jr., who in his famous "I've been to the mountain top" speech makes a very good ponit on the present day situation : "And another reason that I'm happy to live in this period is that we have been forced to a point where we are going to have to grapple with the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands that we grapple with them. Men for years now have been talking about war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today. " (http://www.africanamericans.com/MLKjrI'veBeentotheMountaintop.htm; from - april 3rd 1968; the day before King died) One could read the whole speech, and learn something by it. Or one could download some of the speech here: http://www.mlkonline.com/ So let the nations of the world seek peace and calm... It is needed. Are there any peace in the jails ? How are the children being helped, so that they won't go to jail ? How are the arab countries going to avoid - "pusher street" ? I give the word to the... mr. King: "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death." "America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering our priorities so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it into a brotherhood." Excerpted from "Beyond Vietnam", an address delivered on 4 April 1967 to the Clergy and Laymen Concerned About Vietnam at Riverside Church in New York City. (full text) from M. Sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Meredith" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Morten, I'm sure you appreciate the fact that both Bart's and Steve's point > of view originates in the same USA. Try being in a middle eastern country > and talking publicly about the leader of that country the way Steve talks > about the President of this country and see how good the jails are there. > Well yes I have spent some time in several Arab countries as well as in > Israel. No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact take care of > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can continue to be > who he is. > > > Bill > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > HI Steve and all of you, > > > > Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > > Maybe more than you would know. > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Stubbs" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. > > > > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - > > > extremly > > > > nationalistic - country which > > > > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they > > > do the > > > > opposite ! > > > > > > Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > > > mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > > > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > > > wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he > > > wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just > > > inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. > > > Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > > > > > > > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > > > > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > > > > > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > > > drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > > > the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of > > > work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were > > > reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It > > > is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested > > > interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. > > > > > > Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political > > > spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. > > > > > > > And what about the arab countries or India ? > > > > > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > > > it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > > > Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > > > > > > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of > > > USA are > > > > allowed "FREE MIXING". > > > > > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > > > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > > > > > > > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? > > > > > > I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > > > > > > > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > > > important. > > > > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > > > > > > Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going > > > to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a > > > rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. > > > The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get > > > beaten too badly. > > > > > > You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > > > accurate view of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 16:10:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 00:10:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 87898 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 00:10:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 00:10:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 00:10:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 00:10:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:10:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001101c28cf5$a729b600$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 13008 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I just posted that on another forum that Sufi comes from sufl which=20 means 'wool' like the woolen clothes they wore, as a retro to simple=20 clothing in expressing direct displeasure over the rich caliphs and=20 their fine clothing. That was from one reference source. I don't know=20 if it is true or not. Netemara ************* -- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" =20 wrote: >=20 > Hi Dallas and all of you, >=20 > Thanks for your very kind answer Dallas. >=20 > The following could maybe enhance something, while keeping in mind,=20 that I > hold the below word "Sufi" to be the same as the=20 word "Theosophist" - as the > Ancient Wisdom Teaching of all ages past: >=20 >=20 > The Sufis are also called - > "heart spies", "the lovers", "the builders", "the people of=20 truth", "the > near ones", "the Masters", "the pillars", "the rose", --- or --- > "Mutassawif", "the Blamworhty", "those in white clothes" (a kind of > 'clairvoyant' version), ...etc. > ... > The Sufis claim that a certain kind of mental and other activity can > produce, under special conditions and with perticular efforts, what=20 is > termed a higher working of the mind, leading to special perceptions=20 whose > apparatus is latent in the ordinary man, Sufism is therefore the > transcending of ordinary limitations >=20 > ... > It would maybe reduce the problems of the student to learn that it=20 is said, > with all the authority of the Jewish Encyclopedia, that the Hebrew=20 experts > regard the Cabbala and the Hasidim, the Jewish mystics, as=20 originating with > Sufism or a tradition identical with it. > (*Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. XI, pp. 579,580,581 et passim. Jewish=20 sages > regarded by Western Scholars as following the Spanish Sufi Schools=20 include: > Juda Halevi of Toledo, in his Cuzari; Moses ben Ezra of Granada;=20 Josef ben > Zadiq of Cordoba, in his Microcosmus; Samuel ben Tibbon; Simtob ben > Falaquera.*) > Neither would it encourage him/her to hear, that although the Sufis > themselves claim that their knowledge has existed for thousands of=20 years, > they deny that is is - derivative, - affirming that it is=20 equivalence of the > Hermetic, Phytagorean and Plantonic streams. (Identity of Sufi=20 ideas with > ancient Egyptian, Phytagorean and Platonic schools noted; by M.A.=20 Ubicini, > Letters on Turkey (London, 1856). >=20 > Our still uninitiated student may by now be thoroughly confues; but=20 he/she > had a glimpse of the problems of studying Sufi ideas, even if only=20 because > he for himself can witness for himself the unproductive struggle of=20 the > scholastics. >=20 > ... > Since Sufi study is carried out mainly by direct methods (and it=20 has known > to be conveyed entirely by gesture, symbol and demonstration), when=20 we lose > this element in our study, relying upon books, we must be at the=20 mercy of > those who advance al kinds of subjective theories. > ... > Serious problems in locating genuine and relevant Sufi ideas and=20 practises > exist, too, for any student who has alreday met a watered-down,=20 generalized > or partial variety of Sufism, wheather in the East or in the West.=20 There are > many hundreds of people in America and Europe who practise 'dervish=20 dance, > whirling or turning' in spite of the fact that it is psecifically=20 on record > in easily accessible dervish litterature, that this practise was=20 especially, > precribed, for local reasons, by Rumi (A great Sufi and poet; d.=20 1273) for > the people of Asia Minor in the region of Iconium. > (Shamsudin Ahmad El-Aflaki, Munaqib El-Arfin: trans. Redhouse=20 as "The Acts > of Adepts" (London 1881); reprinted in facsimile ed. Kingston=20 as "Legends > of the Sufis" (London 1965). See also El-Ghazali, "Alchemy of=20 Happiness".) >=20 > ****** >=20 > There is the awkward fact, that the so-called Companions of the=20 Bench - the > Ashab as-Safa - are traditionally soppposed to be the sufis of the=20 time of > Mohammed (d. 632). It is said, that they formed themselves in to an=20 esoteric > group in the year 623 A. D. And that their name is a derivation=20 from the > phrase Ashab as-Safa. > "Sawfa" meaning "piety" and "saff" (contracted from the=20 phrase 'First Rank > of the Worhty'). >=20 > "saff" - "safran" - "sif" - "sign" - "design" ..... >=20 > *** > These are the words taken in part from the Afghan Sufi - Idries Shah > (d.1996), who lived England. > *** >=20 > To the reader: Feel free to enlighten us all... >=20 >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with some new sounds of..."free cultural mixing"...<:-) >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "AA-B-Study" > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:24 PM > Subject: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? >=20 >=20 > > Nov 15 2002 > > > > Re: "Sufi" -- ( also "white," and "pure") > > > > Dear Friend: > > > > Here is an entry from H P B's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 311 > > > > SUFFISM (Gr.). From the root of Sophia, "Wisdom ". A mystical=20 sect in > > Persia something like the Vedantins; though very strong in=20 numbers, > > none but very intelligent men join it. They claim, and very=20 justly, > > the possession of the esoteric philosophy and doctrine of true > > Mohammedanism. The Suffi (or Sofi) doctrine is a good deal in=20 touch > > with Theosophy, inasmuch as it preaches one universal creed, and > > outward respect and tolerance for every popular exoteric faith.=20 It is > > also in touch with Masonry. The Suffis have four degrees and four > > stages of initiation:1st, probationary, with a strict outward > > observance of Mussulman rites, the hidden meaning of each=20 ceremony and > > dogma being explained to the candidate; 2nd, metaphysical=20 training; > > 3rd, the "Wisdom" degree, when the candidate is initiated into the > > innermost nature of things; and 4 final Truth, when the Adept=20 attains > > divine powers, and complete union with the One Universal Deity in > > ecstacy or Sam=E2dhi. > > > > Other references in the same book will be found on pp 36, 105,=20 118, > > 156, 158, 216, > > > > On p. 280 the mysterious force ROWANEE is mentioned and H P B=20 prints > > there a contribution by W. W. W WESTCOTT > > > > ROWHANEE (Eg.) or Er-Roohanee. is the Magic of modern Egypt,=20 supposed > > to proceed from Angels and Spirits, that is Genii, and by the use=20 of > > the mystery names of Allah; they distinguish two forms-Ilwee,=20 that is > > the Higher or White Magic; and Suflee and Sheytanee, the Lower or > > Black Demoniac Magic. There is also Es-Seemuja, which is=20 deception or > > conjuring. Opinions differ as to the importance of a branch of=20 Magic > > called Darb el Mendel, or as Barker calls it in English, the=20 Mendal: > > by this is meant a form of artificial clairvoyance, exhibited by a > > young boy before puberty, or a virgin, who, as the result of > > self-fascination by gazing on a pool of ink in the hand, with > > coincident use of incense and incantation, sees certain scenes of=20 real > > life passing over its surface. Many Eastern travellers have=20 narrated > > instances, as E. W. Lane in his Modern Egyptians and his Thousand=20 and > > One Nights, and E. B. Barker; the incidents have been introduced=20 also > > into many works of fiction, such as Marryat's Phantom Ship, and a > > similar idea is interwoven with the story of Rose Mary and the=20 Beryl > > stone, a poem by Rossetti. For a superficial attempt at=20 explanation, > > see the Quarterly Review, No.117 [w.w.w.] > > > > In another place (same book, p. 105) H P B indicates there is a > > connection between the Sufis and the Druzes of Lebanon and Syria > > > > DRUZES . A large sect, numbering about 100,000 adherents, living=20 on > > Mount Lebanon in Syria. Their rites are very mysterious, and no > > traveller, who has written anything about them, knows for a=20 certainty > > the whole truth. They are the Sufis of Syria. They resent being=20 called > > Druzes as an insult, but call themselves the "disciples of=20 Hamsa ", > > their Messiah, who came to them in the ninth century from=20 the "Land of > > the Word of God", which land and word they kept religiously=20 secret. > > The Messiah to come will be the same Hamsa, but called Hakem-the > > All-Healer ". (See Isis Unveiled, II 308, et seq.) > > > > In the Glossary (p. 36) another reference associates them with=20 the > > "Assassins" > > > > ASSASSINS . A masonic and mystic order founded by Hassan Sabah=20 in > > Persia, in the eleventh century. The word is a European=20 perversion of > > "Hassan ", which forms the chief part of the name. > > They were simply Sufis and addicted, according to the tradition,=20 to > > hascheesl-eating, in order to bring about celestial visions. As=20 shown > > by our late brother, Kenneth Mackenzie, "they were teachers of the > > secret doctrines of Islamism; they encouraged mathematics and > > philosophy, and produced many valuable works. The chief of the=20 Order > > was called Sheik-el-Jebel, translated the 'Old Man of the=20 Mountains', > > and, as their Grand Master, lie possessed power of life and=20 death.' > > ( p. 36) > > > > Thus the secret "societies" including the ancient order=20 of "Masons," > > (builders, cosmocratores) was shown to be united in their=20 teachings > > concerning the origins and purpose of the World and our universe. > > > > Another entry of interest is here given ( p. 37) > > > > ASSYRIAN HOLY SCRIPTURES. Orientalists show seven such hooks: the > > Books of Mamit, of Worship, of Interpretations, of Going to=20 Hades; two > > Prayer Books (Kanmagarri and Kanmikri: Talbot) and the Kantolit=E9,=20 the > > lost Assyrian Psalter. (p. 37) > > > > ASSYRIAN TREE OF LIFE . "Asherah" (q.v.). It is translated in the > > Bible by "grove ' and occurs 30 times. It is called an "idol"; and > > Maachah, the grandmother of Asa, King of Jerusalem, is accused of > > having made for herself such an idol, which was a lingham. For > > centuries this was a religious rite in Jud=E6a. But the original=20 Asherah > > was a pillar with seven branches on each side surmounted by a=20 globular > > flower with three projecting rays, and no phallic stone, as the=20 Jews > > made of it, but a metaphysical symbol. "Merciful One, who dead to=20 life > > raises! was the prayer uttered before the Asherah, on the banks=20 of the > > Euphrates. The "Merciful One ", was neither the personal god of=20 the > > Jews who brought the "grove" from their captivity, nor any extra- > > cosmic god, but THE HIGHER TRIAD IN MAN SYMBOLIZED BY THE GLOBULAR > > FLOWER WITH ITS THREE RAYS. ( p. 37) > > > > Further investigation shows a relationship with "Hamsa" as=20 follows: > > (p. 134) > > HAMSA OR HANSA (Sk.) "Swan or goose", according to the=20 Orientalists ; > > a mystical bird in Occultism analogous to the Rosicrucian Pelican. > > Tile sacred mystic name which, when preceded by that of KALA=20 (infinite > > time), i.e. Kalahansa, is name of Parabrahm ; meaning the " Bird=20 out > > of space and time". Hence Brahm=E2 (male)is called Hansa Vahana "the > > Vehicle of Hansa (the Bird). We find the same idea in the Zohar,=20 where > > Ain Suph (the endless and infinite) is said to descend into the > > universe, for purposes of manifestation, using Adam Kadmon=20 (Humanity) > > as a chariot or vehicle. > > > > HAMSA (Arab.). The founder of the mystic sect of the Druzes of=20 Mount > > Lebanon. (See "Druzes" .) [ see above ] (see MAHATMA LETTERS p.=20 116, > > Modern Panarion p. 375, S D II p. 27; H P B Articles III=20 281... > > "Lamas and Druzes" -- showing a relationship with the Tibetan > > Esoteric philosophies. > > > > ISIS UNVEILED makes a very interesting reading if one is in=20 search of > > evidence relating to the past of Theosophy as seen in and at the=20 base > > of every ancient Theogony, Religion or Secret Society. These were > > also closely related to the Egyptian and Greek MYSTERIES. > > Best wishes > > > > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@a...] > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:38 AM > > To: Theos-Talk > > Subject: Theos-World The word Sufi... > > > > Hi all of you, > > > > It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. > > It is said to have German origin from year 1821. > > The book by the author F.A.G. Th=F6luck is titled: "Ssufismus sive > > Theosophia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin > > The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is > > interesting. > > As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting > > to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading=20 took > > place at all. > > Someone says that the word has a distinct sound=20 called 'SSSUUUFFF'. > > > > Do any of you have anything on this ? > > > > from > > M. Sufilight > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 16:31:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 00:31:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 90083 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 00:31:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 00:31:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 00:31:46 -0000 Received: from user-2iniu0c.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.120.12] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18CqrG-0001vv-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:30:47 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: PART iii THEOSOPHY AND THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:26:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 PART III Nov 15 2002. Dear Friends: This long quotation from H P B's SECRET DOCTRINE should serve several purposes. 1. It establishes the nature of her scholarship in a basic area. 2. It discusses ancient symbology in universal and synthesizing terms. 3. It shows the profound value of understanding mathematics and geometry. 4. It establishes a foundation for Universal and Impersonal Law. 5. It shows the unity of thought and metaphysics at the base of religions. 6. It describes the process of involution that precedes evolution. 7. It declares that the whole of SPACE is filled with live Monads, all emanating from the same spiritual source, and all as individuals, tending to return to that Source and not loosing that individuality but proceeding further on the great adventures of higher life. Best wishes, Dallas ------------------------------- "An Archaic Manuscript -- a collection of palm leaves made impermeable to water, fire, and air, by some specific unknown process -- is before the writer's eye. On the first page is an immaculate white disk within a dull black ground. On the following page, the same disk, but with a central point. The first, the student knows to represent Kosmos in Eternity, before the re-awakening of still slumbering Energy, the emanation of the Word in later systems. The point in the hitherto immaculate Disk, Space and Eternity in Pralaya, denotes the dawn of differentiation. It is the Point in the Mundane Egg (see Part II., "The Mundane Egg"), the germ within the latter which will become the Universe, the ALL, the boundless, periodical Kosmos, this germ being latent and active, periodically and by turns. The one circle is divine Unity, from which all proceeds, whither all returns. Its circumference -- a forcibly limited symbol, in view of the limitation of the human mind -- indicates the abstract, ever incognisable PRESENCE, and its plane, the Universal Soul, although the two are one. Only the face of the Disk being white and the ground all around black, shows clearly that its plane is the only knowledge, dim and hazy though it still is, that is attainable by man. It is on this plane that the Manvantaric manifestations begin; for it is in this SOUL that slumbers, during the Pralaya, the Divine Thought,* wherein lies concealed the plan of every future Cosmogony and Theogony. [[Vol. 1, Page]] 2 S D It is the ONE LIFE, eternal, invisible, yet Omnipresent, without beginning or end, yet periodical in its regular manifestations, between which periods reigns the dark mystery of non-Being; unconscious, yet absolute Consciousness; unrealisable, yet the one self-existing reality; truly, "a chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason." Its one absolute attribute, which is ITSELF, eternal, ceaseless Motion, is called in esoteric parlance the "Great Breath,"* which is the perpetual motion of the universe, in the sense of limitless, ever-present SPACE. That which is motionless cannot be Divine. But then there is nothing in fact and reality absolutely motionless within the universal soul... >From the beginning of man's inheritance, from the first appearance of the architects of the globe he lives in, the unrevealed Deity was recognised and considered under its only philosophical aspect -- universal motion, the thrill of the creative Breath in Nature. Occultism sums up the "One Existence" thus: "Deity is an arcane, living (or moving) FIRE, and the eternal witnesses to this unseen Presence are Light, Heat, Moisture," -- this trinity including, and being the cause of, every " [[Vol. 1, Page]] 3 S D phenomenon in Nature. Intra-Cosmic motion is eternal and ceaseless; cosmic motion (the visible, or that which is subject to perception) is finite and periodical. As an eternal abstraction it is the EVER-PRESENT; as a manifestation, it is finite both in the coming direction and the opposite, the two being the alpha and omega of successive reconstructions. Kosmos -- the NOUMENON -- has nought to do with the causal relations of the phenomenal World. It is only with reference to the intra-cosmic soul, the ideal Kosmos in the immutable Divine Thought, that we may say: "It never had a beginning nor will it have an end." With regard to its body or Cosmic organization, though it cannot be said that it had a first, or will ever have a last construction, yet at each new Manvantara, its organization may be regarded as the first and the last of its kind, as it evolutes every time on a higher plane . . . ..In its turn, rationalistic science greets the Buddhists and the Svabhavikas as the "positivists" of the archaic ages. If we take a one-sided view of the philosophy of the latter, our materialists may be right in their own way. The Buddhists maintained that there is no Creator, but an infinitude of creative powers, which collectively form the one eternal substance, the essence of which is inscrutable -- hence not a subject for speculation for any true philosopher.... Upon inaugurating an active period, says the Secret Doctrine, an expansion of this Divine essence from without inwardly and from within outwardly, occurs in obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces thus progressively set in motion. In like manner, when the passive condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its material dispersed; and 'darkness' solitary and alone, broods once more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a Metaphor from the Secret Books, which will convey the idea still more clearly, an out-breathing of the 'unknown essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to disappear. This process has been going on from all eternity, and our present universe is but one of an infinite series, which had no beginning and will have no end." -- (See "Isis Unveiled"; also "The Days and Nights of Brahma" in Part II.) This passage will be explained, as far as it is possible, in the present work. Though, as it now stands, it contains nothing new to the Orientalist, its esoteric interpretation may contain a good deal which has hitherto remained entirely unknown to the Western student. The first illustration being a plain disc the second one in the Archaic symbol shows , a disc with a point in it -- the first differentiation in the periodical manifestations of the ever-eternal nature, sexless and infinite "Aditi in THAT" (Rig Veda), the point in the disc, or potential Space within abstract Space. In its third stage the point is transformed into a diameter, thus It now symbolises a divine immaculate Mother-Nature within the all-embracing absolute Infinitude. [[Vol. 1, Page]] 5 S D When the diameter line is crossed by a vertical one , it becomes the mundane cross. Humanity has reached its third root-race; it is the sign for the origin of human life to begin. When the circumference disappears and leaves only the it is a sign that the fall of man into matter is accomplished, and the FOURTH race begins. The Cross within a circle symbolises pure Pantheism; when the Cross was left uninscribed, it became phallic. It had the same and yet other meanings as a TAU inscribed within a circle or as a "Thor's hammer," the Jaina cross, so-called, or simply Svastica within a circle By the third symbol -- the circle divided in two by the horizontal line of the diameter -- the first manifestation of creative (still passive, because feminine) Nature was meant. The first shadowy perception of man connected with procreation is feminine, because man knows his mother more than his father. Hence female deities were more sacred than the male. Nature is therefore feminine, and, to a degree, objective and tangible, and the spirit Principle which fructifies it is concealed. By adding to the circle with the horizontal line in it, a perpendicular line, the tau was formed -- -- -- the oldest form of the letter. It was the glyph of the third root-race to the day of its symbolical Fall -- i.e., when the separation of sexes by natural evolution took place -- when the figure became , the circle, or sexless life modified or separated -- a double glyph or symbol. With the races of our Fifth Race it became in symbology the sacr', and in Hebrew n'cabvah, of the first-formed races;* then it changed into the Egyptian (emblem of life), and still later into the sign of Venus, Then comes the Svastica (Thor's hammer, or the "Hermetic Cross" now), entirely separated from its Circle, thus becoming purely phallic. The esoteric symbol of Kali Yuga is the five-pointed star reversed, thus -- the sign of human sorcery, with its two points (horns) turned heavenward, a position every [[Vol. 1, Page]] 6 S D Occultist will recognise as one of the "left-hand," and used in ceremonial magic. It is hoped that during the perusal of this work the erroneous ideas of the public in general with regard to Pantheism will be modified. It is wrong and unjust to regard the Buddhists and Advaitee Occultists as atheists... if the Parabrahmam of the Hindus may be taken as a representative of the hidden and nameless deities of other nations, this absolute Principle will be found to be the prototype from which all the others were copied. Parabrahm is not "God," because It is not a God. "It is that which is supreme, and not supreme (paravara)," explains Mandukya Upanishad.... IT is "Supreme" as CAUSE, not supreme as effect. Parabrahm is simply, as a "Secondless Reality," the all-inclusive Kosmos -- or, rather, the infinite Cosmic Space -- in the highest spiritual sense, of course. ... Parabrahmam is a passive because an Absolute Cause, the unconditioned Mukta. It is only limited Omniscience and Omnipotence that are refused to the latter, because these are still attributes (as reflected in man's perceptions); and because Parabrahm, being the "Supreme ALL," the ever invisible spirit and Soul of Nature, changeless and eternal, can have no attributes; absoluteness very naturally precluding any idea of the finite or conditioned from being connected with it. ...there can be neither two INFINITES nor two ABSOLUTES in a Universe supposed to be Boundless, this Self-Existence can hardly be conceived of as creating personally. In the sense and perceptions of finite "Beings," THAT is Non-"being," in the sense that it is the one BE-NESS; for, in this ALL lies concealed its coeternal and coeval emanation or inherent radiation, which, upon becoming periodically Brahma (the male-female Potency) becomes or expands itself into the manifested Universe. Narayana moving on the (abstract) waters of Space, is transformed into the Waters of concrete substance moved by him, who now becomes the manifested WORD or Logos. " ------------------------------- Pages from The SECRET DOCTRINE I 613 to 620 Philosophy, however, could never have formed its conception of a logical, universal, and absolute Deity if it had no Mathematical Point within the Circle to base its speculations upon. It is only the manifested Point, lost to our senses after its pregenetic appearance in the infinitude and incognizability of the Circle, that made a reconciliation between philosophy and theology possible -- on condition that the latter should abandon its crude materialistic dogmas. And it is because it has so unwisely rejected the Pythagorean Monad and geometrical figures, that Christian theology has evolved its self-created human and personal God, the monstrous Head from whence flow in two streams the dogmas of Salvation and Damnation. This is so true that even those clergymen... who were masons, have, in their arbitrary interpretations, fathered upon the ancient sages the queer idea that "the Monad represented (with them) the throne of the Omnipotent Deity, placed in the centre of the Empyrean to indicate T.G.A.O.T.U."* -- read "the Great Architect of the Universe." A curious explanation this, more Masonic than strictly Pythagorean. Nor did the "hierogram within a Circle, or equilateral Triangle," [[Vol. 1, Page]] 614 S D ever mean "the exemplification of the unity of the divine Essence"; for this was exemplified by the plane of the boundless Circle. What it really meant was the triune co-equal Nature of the first differentiated Substance, or the con-substantiality of the (manifested) Spirit, matter and the Universe -- their "Son," who proceeds from the Point (the real, esoteric LOGOS) or the Pythagorean MONAD. For the Greek Monas signifies "Unity" in its primary sense. Those unable to seize the difference between the monad -- the Universal Unit -- and the Monads or the manifested Unity, as also between the ever-hidden and the revealed LOGOS or the Word, ought never to meddle in philosophy, let alone the Esoteric Sciences. It is needless to remind the educated reader of Kant's Thesis to demonstrate his second Antinomy.* Those who have read and understood it will see clearly the line we draw between the absolutely Ideal Universe and the invisible though manifested Kosmos. Our Gods and Monads are not the Elements of extension itself, but only those of the invisible reality which is the basis of the manifested Kosmos. Neither esoteric philosophy, nor Kant, nor Leibnitz would ever admit that extension can be composed of simple or unextended parts. But theologian-philosophers will not grasp this. The Circle and the Point, which latter retires into and merges with the former, after having emanated the first three points and connected them with lines, thus forming the first noumenal basis of the Second Triangle in the Manifested World, have ever been an insuperable obstacle to theological flights into dogmatic Empyreans. ... The Monad -- only the emanation and reflection of the Point (Logos) in the phenomenal World -- becomes, as the apex of the manifested equilateral triangle, the "Father." The left side or line is the Duad, the "Mother," regarded as the evil, counteracting principle ...the right side represents the Son ("his Mother's husband" in every Cosmogony, as one with the apex); at the basic line is the Universal plane of productive Nature, unifying on the phenomenal plane Father-Mother-Son, as these were unified in the apex, in the supersensuous World. By mystic transmutation they became the Quaternary -- the triangle became the TETRAKTIS. [[Vol. 1, Page]] 615 SPACE, FORCE AND MATTER. This transcendental application of geometry to Cosmic and divine theogony -- the Alpha and the Omega of mystical conception -- became dwarfed after Pythagoras by Aristotle. By omitting the Point and the Circle, and taking no account of the apex, he reduced the metaphysical value of the idea, and thus limited the doctrine of magnitude to a simple TRIAD -- the line, the surface, and the body. His modern heirs, who play at Idealism, have interpreted these three geometrical figures as Space, Force, and Matter -- "the potencies of an interacting Unity." Materialistic Science, perceiving but the basic line of the manifested "triangle" -- the plane of matter -- translates it practically as (Father)-MATTER, (Mother)-MATTER, and (Son)-MATTER, and theoretically as Matter, Force, and Correlation. But to the average physicist, as remarked by a Kabalist, "Space, Force, Matter, are, what signs in algebra are to the mathematician, merely conventional symbols;" or "Force as force, and Matter as matter, are as absolutely unknowable as is the assumed empty space in which they are held to interact." As symbols representing abstractions, "the physicist bases reasoned hypotheses of the origin of things . . . . and sees three needs in what he terms creation: (a) a place wherein to create; (b) a medium by which to create; (c) a material from which to create. And in giving a logical expression to this hypothesis through the terms space, force, matter, he believes he has proved the existence of that which each of these represents as he conceives it to be." The physicist who regards Space merely as a representation of our mind, or extension unrelated to things in it, which Locke defined as capable of neither resistance nor motion; the paradoxical materialist, who would have a void there, where he can see no matter, would reject with the utmost contempt the proposition that "Space is a substantial though (apparently) an absolutely unknowable living Entity." ...Such is, nevertheless, the Kabalistic teaching, and it is that of Archaic philosophy. Space is the real world, while our world is an artificial one. It is the One Unity throughout its infinitude: in its bottomless depths as on its illusive surface; a surface studded with countless phenomenal Universes, systems and mirage-like worlds. Nevertheless, to the Eastern Occultist, who is an objective Idealist at the bottom, in the real world, which is a Unity of Forces, there is "a connection of all matter in the plenum," as Leibnitz would say. This is symbolized in the Pythagorean Triangle. [[Vol. 1, Page]] 616 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. It consists of ten points inscribed pyramid-like (from one to the last four) within its three lines, and it symbolizes the Universe in the famous Pythagorean Decad. The upper single dot is a Monad, and represents a Unit-Point, which is the Unity from whence all proceeds, and all is of the same essence with it. While the ten dots within the triangle represent the phenomenal world, the three sides of the equilateral triangle which enclose the pyramid of dots are the barriers of noumenal Matter, or Substance, that separate it from the world of Thought. "Pythagoras considered a point to correspond in proportion to unity; a line to 2; a superficies to 3; a solid to 4; and he defined a point as a Monad having position, and the beginning of all things; a line was thought to correspond with duality, because it was produced by the first motion from indivisible nature, and formed the junction of two points. A superficies was compared to the number three because it is the first of all causes that are found in figures; for a circle, which is the principal of all round figures, comprises a triad, in centre -- space -- circumference. But a triangle, which is the first of all rectilineal figures, is included in a ternary, and receives its form according to that number; and was considered by the Pythagoreans to be the creator of all sublunary things. The four points at the base of the Pythagorean triangle correspond with a solid or cube, which combines the principles of length, breadth, and thickness, for no solid can have less than four extreme boundary points." ... It is argued that "the human mind cannot conceive an indivisible unit short of the annihilation of the idea with its subject." This is an error, as the Pythagoreans have proved, and a number of Seers before them, although there is a special training for it, and although the profane mind can hardly grasp it. But there are such things as metamathematics and metageometry. Even mathematics pure and simple proceed from the Universal to the particular, from the mathematical, hence indivisible Point, to solid figures. The teaching originated in India, and was taught in Europe by Pythagoras, who, throwing a veil over the Circle and the Point -- which no living man can define except as incomprehensible abstractions -- laid the origin of the differentiated Cosmic matter in the basic or horizontal line of the Triangle. Thus the latter became the earliest of geometrical figures. The author of "New Aspects of Life" and of the Kabalistic Mysteries -- objects to the objectivization, so to speak, of the Pythagorean conception and use of the equilateral triangle, and calls it a misnomer. His argument that a solid equilateral body -- "one whose base, and each of its sides, form equal triangles -- must have four co-equal sides or surfaces, while a triangular plane will as necessarily possess five," demonstrates on the contrary the grandeur of the conception in all its esoteric application to the idea of [[Vol. 1, Page]] 617 PHANTOMS OF THE MIND. the pregenesis, and the genesis of Kosmos. Granted, that an ideal triangle, depicted by mathematical, imaginary lines "can have no sides at all, being simply a phantom of the mind (if sides be imputed to which, they must be the sides of the object it constructively represents)." But in such case most of the scientific hypotheses are no better than "phantoms of the mind"; they are unverifiable, except on inference, and have been adopted merely to answer scientific necessities. Furthermore, the ideal triangle -- "as the abstract idea of a triangular body, and, therefore, as the type of an abstract idea" -- accomplished and carried out to perfection the double symbolism intended. As an emblem applicable to the objective idea, the simple triangle became a solid. When repeated in stone on the four cardinal points, it assumed the shape of the Pyramid -- the symbol of the phenomenal merging into the noumenal Universe of thought -- at the apex of the four triangles; and, as an "imaginary figure constructed of three mathematical lines," it symbolized the subjective spheres -- those lines "enclosing a mathematical space -- which is equal to nothing enclosing nothing." Because, to the senses and the untrained consciousness of profane and scientist, everything beyond the line of differentiated matter -- i.e., outside of, and beyond the realm of even the most spiritual substance -- has to remain for ever equal to nothing. It is the AIN-SOPH -- the No-THING. Yet these "phantoms of the mind" are in truth no greater abstractions than the abstract ideas in general upon evolution and physical development -- e.g., Gravity, Matter, Force, etc. -- on which the exact sciences are based. Our most eminent chemists and physicists are earnestly pursuing the not hopeless attempt of finally tracing to its hiding-place the protyle, or the basic line of the Pythagorean triangle. The latter is, as said, the grandest conception imaginable, as it symbolizes both the ideal and the visible universes.* For if "the possible unit is only a possibility as an actuality of nature, as an individual of any kind," and as every individual natural object is capable of division, and by division loses its unity, or ceases to be a unit, it is so only in the realm of exact sciences in a world as deceptive as it is illusive. In the realm of the Esoteric sciences the unit divided ad infinitum, instead of losing its unity, approaches with every division the planes of the only eternal REALITY. The eye of the SEER can follow and behold it in all its pregenetic glory. This same idea of the reality of the subjective, and the unreality of the objective universes, is found at the bottom of the Pythagorean and Platonic teachings -- limited to the Elect alone; for [[Footnote(s)]] ------------------------------------------------- * In the world of Form, having found its expression in the Pyramids, Symbolism has in them both a triangle and a square, with their four co-equal triangles or surfaces, the four basic points, and the fifth -- the apex. [[Vol. 1, Page]] 618 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Porphyry, speaking of the Monad and the Duad, says that the former only was considered substantial and real, "that most simple Being, the cause of all unity and the measure of all things." But the Duad, although the origin of Evil, or Matter -- thence unreal in philosophy -- is still Substance during Manvantara, and is often called the third monad, in Occultism, and the connecting line as between two Points, . . . or Numbers which proceeded from THAT, "which was before all Numbers," as expressed by Rabbi Barahiel. And from this Duad proceeded all the Scintillas of the three upper and the four lower worlds or planes -- which are in constant interaction and correspondence. This is a teaching which the Kabala has in common with Eastern Occultism. For in the occult philosophy there are the "ONE Cause" and the "Primal Cause," which latter thus becomes, paradoxically, the second,..." Thus he shows the early Hebrews following in the steps of the Oriental philosophy -- Chaldean, Persian, Hindu, Arabic, etc. Their Primal Cause was designated at first "by the triadic Shaddai, the (triune) Almighty, subsequently by the Tetragrammaton, Y H V H, symbol of the Past, Present, and Future," and, let us add, of the eternal IS, or the I AM. Moreover, in the Kabala the name YHVH (or Jehovah) expresses a He and a She, male and female, two in one, or Hokhmah and Binah, and his, or rather their Shekinah or synthesizing spirit (grace), which makes again of the Duad a Triad... together they make the i.e., one YH VH. One, but of a male-female nature. The Shekinah is always considered in the Qabbalah as feminine." And so it is considered in the exoteric Puranas, for Shekinah is no more than Sakti -- the female double or lining of any god, in such case. And so it was with the early Christians whose Holy Spirit was feminine, as Sophia was with the Gnostics. But in the transcendental Chaldean Kabala or "Book of Numbers," "Shekinah" is sexless, and the purest abstraction, a State, like Nirvana, not subject or object or anything except an absolute PRESENCE. Thus it is only in the anthropomorphised systems (such as the Kabala has now greatly become) that Shekinah-Sakti is feminine. As such she becomes the Duad of Pythagoras, the two straight lines of the symbol that can never meet, which therefore form no geometrical figure and are [[Vol. 1, Page]] 619 THE MONAD OF LEIBNITZ. the symbol of matter. Out of this Duad, when united in one basic line of the triangle on the lower plane (the upper Triangle of the Sephirothal Tree), emerge the Elohim, or Deity in Cosmic Nature, with the true Kabalists the lowest designation, translated in the Bible "God" (see the same work and page). Out of these issue the Scintillas. The Scintillas are the "Souls," and these Souls appear in the three-fold form of Monads (units), atoms and gods -- according to our teaching. "Every atom becomes a visible complex unit (a molecule), and once attracted into the sphere of terrestrial activity, the Monadic Essence, passing through the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, becomes man." (Esot. Catechism.) Again, "God, Monad, and Atom are the correspondences of Spirit, Mind, and Body (Atma, Manas and Sthula Sarira) in man." In their septenary aggregation they are the "Heavenly Man"; thus, terrestrial man is the provisional reflection of the Heavenly. . . . . "The Monads (Jivas) are the Souls of the Atoms, both are the fabric in which the Chohans (Dhyanis, gods) cloth themselves when a form is needed." (Esot. Cat.) This relates to Cosmic and sub-planetary Monads, not to the Super-Cosmic Monas (the Pythagorean Monad) as called, in its synthetic character, by the Pantheistical Peripatetics. The Monads of the present dissertation are treated from the standpoint of their individuality, as atomic Souls, before these atoms descend into pure terrestrial form. For this descent into concrete matter marks the medial point of their own individual pilgrimage. Here, losing in the mineral kingdom their individuality, they begin to ascend through the seven states of terrestrial evolution to that point where a correspondence is firmly established between the human and Deva (divine) consciousness. At present, however, we are not concerned with their terrestrial metamorphoses and tribulations, but with their life and behaviour in Space, on planes wherein the eye of the most intuitional chemist and physicist cannot reach them -- unless, indeed, he develops in himself highly clairvoyant faculties. It is well known that Leibnitz came several times very near the truth, but defined monadic evolution incorrectly, which is not to be wondered at, since he was not an INITIATE, nor even a Mystic, only a [[Vol. 1, Page]] 620 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. very intuitional philosopher. Yet no psycho-physicist ever came nearer than he has to the esoteric general outline of evolution. This evolution -- viewed from its several standpoints -- i.e., as the universal and the individualized Monad; and the chief aspects of the Evolving Energy, after differentiation -- the purely Spiritual, the Intellectual, the Psychic and the Physical -- may be thus formulated a s an invariable law; a descent of Spirit into Matter, equivalent to an ascent in physical evolution; a re-ascent from the depths of materiality towards its status quo ante, with a corresponding dissipation of concrete form and substance up to the LAYA state, or what Science calls "the zero-point," and beyond. These states -- once the spirit of Esoteric philosophy is grasped -- become absolutely necessary from simple logical and analogical considerations. Physical Science having now ascertained, through its department of Chemistry, the invariable law of this evolution of atoms -- from their "protylean" state down to that of a physical and then a chemical particle (or molecule) -- cannot well reject the same as a general law. And once it is forced by its enemies -- Metaphysics and Psychology -- out of its alleged impregnable strongholds, it will find it more difficult than it now appears to refuse room in the Spaces of SPACE to Planetary Spirits (gods), Elementals, and even the Elementary Spooks or Ghosts, and others. Already Figuier and Paul D'Assier, two Positivists and Materialists, have succumbed before this logical necessity. Other and still greater Scientists will follow in that "intellectual FALL." They will be driven out of their position not by spiritual, theosophical, or any other physical or even mental phenomena, but simply by the enormous gaps and chasms that open daily and will still be opening before them, as one discovery follows the other, until they are finally knocked off their feet by the ninth wave of simple common sense. " --------------------------------- D T B From adelasie@surfari.net Fri Nov 15 17:03:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 01:03:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 7271 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 01:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 01:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 01:03:28 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAG13OAZ026187 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:03:26 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:03:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: <3DD528C8.14307.2009F65@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000901c28d01$f1cb2020$ce92a483@opasia.dk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Dear Morten, Thank you for these inspiring words from Dr. King. One hears the echos of the highest truth in them. Perhaps each of us could take a moment to reflect how powerful the wish for peace can be if we reflect it out in our daily lives. Instead of fighting and arguing, we could change our little part of the universe completely if we took Dr. King's example, along with that of many other champions of peace throughout history, to heart, and lived our lives dedicated to non- violence, harmlessness, kindness to others, altruism, and brotherly love. Adelasie On 16 Nov 2002 at 0:51, Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > HI Bill and all of you, > > Well thanks for that remark of yours. > > Maybe the following could be of some help. > > I will give the word to Martin Luther King Jr., who in his famous > "I've been to the mountain top" speech makes a very good ponit on the > present day situation : > > "And another reason that I'm happy to live in this period is that we > have been forced to a point where we are going to have to grapple with > the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through > history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands > that we grapple with them. Men for years now have been talking about > war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is > no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; > it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today. " > (http://www.africanamericans.com/MLKjrI'veBeentotheMountaintop.htm; > from - april 3rd 1968; the day before King died) > > One could read the whole speech, and learn something by it. > Or one could download some of the speech here: > http://www.mlkonline.com/ > > So let the nations of the world seek peace and calm... It is needed. > Are there any peace in the jails ? How are the children being helped, > so that they won't go to jail ? How are the arab countries going to > avoid - "pusher street" ? > > I give the word to the... mr. King: > > "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on > military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching > spiritual death." "America, the richest and most powerful nation in > the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There > is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering > our priorities so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over > the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a > recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it > into a brotherhood." > > Excerpted from "Beyond Vietnam", an address delivered on 4 April 1967 > to the Clergy and Laymen Concerned About Vietnam at Riverside Church > in New York City. (full text) > > > > from > M. Sufilight with peace... > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Meredith" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:52 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > Morten, I'm sure you appreciate the fact that both Bart's and > > Steve's > point > > of view originates in the same USA. Try being in a middle eastern > > country and talking publicly about the leader of that country the > > way Steve talks about the President of this country and see how good > > the jails are there. Well yes I have spent some time in several Arab > > countries as well as in Israel. No you don't need an airline > > ticket, just listen to Steve and ask yourself what kind of > > government could love Steve, and in fact take care > of > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can continue > > to be who he is. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > HI Steve and all of you, > > > > > > Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > > > Maybe more than you would know. > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Steve Stubbs" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No > > > > Bart. > > > > > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one > > > > > single - > > > > extremly > > > > > nationalistic - country which > > > > > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while > > > > > they > > > > do the > > > > > opposite ! > > > > > > > > Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > > > > mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > > > > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush > > > > says he wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he > > > > is saying he wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. > > > > Just inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public > > > > speaking course. Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > > > > > > > > > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > > > > > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > > > > > > > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war > > > > on drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes > > > > sense on the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps > > > > for out of work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if > > > > the laws were reformed, all those people would be put on the > > > > unemployment line. It is a classic problem which has faced all > > > > societies, in which a vested interest is created snd people > > > > fight like hell to keep it. > > > > > > > > Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the > > > > political spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts > > > > of the left. > > > > > > > > > And what about the arab countries or India ? > > > > > > > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt > > > > about it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really > > > > miss that. Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > > > > > > > > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the > > > > > jails of > > > > USA are > > > > > allowed "FREE MIXING". > > > > > > > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > > > > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of > > > > Palestinians. > > > > > > > > > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular > > > > > country ? > > > > > > > > I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > > > > > > > > > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > > > > important. > > > > > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > > > > > > > > Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help > > > > going to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that > > > > he has a rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is > > > > inevitable. The best we can hope for is that it is short and > > > > that he does not get beaten too badly. > > > > > > > > You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > > > > accurate view of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From alpha@dircon.co.uk Fri Nov 15 18:44:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: alpha@dircon.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 02:44:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 30555 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 02:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 02:44:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost2.dircon.co.uk) (194.112.32.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 02:44:00 -0000 Received: from default (th-en134-190.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.53.190]) by mailhost2.dircon.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3564962D8A for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:43:58 +0000 (GMT) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:46:09 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003201c28c88$83c71b20$08414b42@socal.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Tony" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=42271540 Hello Wes <<>> That is a bit of an under statement! To hear H.P.B. and the Master's talked of in such a way is awful, isn't it? And for anyone new to Theosophy, it is not encouraging. Isn't that why we don't know who the Masters (and H.P.B. for that matter) really are. Just delete those backward and unhelpful mails. They are full of error (another under statement). They are total rubbish! The lists build up their own elemental, and it can really take hold. We can get caught up in that if we allow it, and get taken away from Theosophy. The list is called Theos-World. But Theosophy is not *of* this world (although it can hopefully operate in it). Practical Theosophy. H.P.B. is surely not to be seen as academic or scholarly? Rather a Theosophist and Occultist. A fifth rounder. It is so good. It lifts the spirit. H.P.B. "had enough" of things too at times. Even though she died over 110 years ago the *backward* still keep maligning her. There are now scientists who study "The Secret Doctrine" and have to get 2nd copies, because the first ones are full up with their notes. Apart from Leon, that aspect rarely comes into the discussions. B/Bs vitriol is backward, behind and out dated. Finish. There is a lot going on (S.D. - wise), but often outside the Theosophical Movement and theosophical lists. For example, there was a chap just a couple of months ago who picked up the S.D. for the first time and saw so much in it straight away. Light, heat, moisture, magnetism, force, sevens, electricity, rounds, races, chains, 7 principles...and answers to questions his University lecturers could give no answer. All in the space of a couple of hours. It was so great to see it Wes. An *eye* opener, to put it mildly. Support comes from Science, Physics, Medicine, etc. We can sit and study/meditate the S.D. That is fine. But someone in medicine (or not), for example, can put that in to practice through mesmeric healing. That kind of thing. <<>> Just as well perhaps, as they are a real clue, but "A clue, which is, perhaps, no clue to the present generation -- especially the Westerns -- protected as they are by their very blindness and ignorant materialistic disbelief in the occult; but a clue which would, nevertheless, have been very real in the early centuries of the Christian era, to people fully convinced of the reality of occultism, and entering a cycle of degradation, which made them rife for abuse of occult powers and sorcery of the worst description. (SD Introductory page xxxv) Was it such a good thing when gunpowder was no longer "occult" knowledge, and came into the public domain? It is always good to read your mails Wes. Theosophy is just so tremendous! Thanks Tony -----Original Message----- From: Wes Amerman [mailto:amerman@theosophy.net] Sent: 15 November 2002 9:22 am To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters Brian/Brigitte, I've really had enough. First of all, you refused to discuss any idea seriously with me, and completely ignored my questions and comments, weeks and months ago, about the shortcomings of modern science and the gaps in its approach to evolution and consciousness. All you seem to want to do is bash Theosophy and any attempt to defend it, all the while quoting from secondary sources who share your derogatory views. Seldom, if ever, do you cite the source Theosophy which you claim is faulty. And, when someone (Daniel, Dallas or Leon, for example) quotes Blavatsky or someone who supports her to show another side to the matter, you put them down and attack them personally, as you most recently did by saying Daniel has "no credentials!" Why not just take an IDEA to task? I don't mean a secondary, latter day student's interpretation, well-known or not, but a bona fide idea from Blavatsky or her Teachers? If you disagree with Theosophy, why not have the courage to discuss the central ideas: spiritual evolution, karma, reincarnation, etc. and their relationships to human lives, needs and aspirations today? Instead, you criticize the more abstruse and difficult concepts (such as rounds and races, of which you have absolutely NO clue), and then garble and misinterpret them to make it seem that they support the most heinous of UN-brotherly sentiments and actions! X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 03:39:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 74698 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 03:39:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 03:39:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 03:39:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 03:39:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:39:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001501c28cf9$a305b200$d2ab80d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2048 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.22 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact take care of > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can continue to be > who he is. Hi, Bill: I don't have a clue as to what that statement means. I don't believe anyone "loves" any of us, and if we end up a ward of the state, the government won't take care of us just so we can continue to be who we are. They will keep us in something slightly better than a vegetative state until the Grim Reaper comes and gets us. I have visited those places and could not wait to get out. Fortunately, the medicare system is starting to rate nursing homes, but I don't know how advanced a state that effort is in. It will be interesting to see how much more highly rated are institutions for the ruling elite than for the elderly poor who got ripped off by the investment bankers. Iraq is an Arab country, and Scott Ritter publicly made some rather frank comments about George Bush while he was there. Saddam did not put him in jail to my knowledge. If Oil War II does not end quickly and leaves a lot of teenagers from Iowa dying in convulsions from inhaling Sarin the jingoism in this country will last about as long as a puff of hair spray. Bear in mind the last urban combat our forces engaged in was in Mogaadishu, and Aidid did not have nerve gases. If Bush starts an avoidable war he is taking one hell of a political chance, and may well end the Bush dynasty. You know of course that they are now saying after eight years of George we will have to put up with eight years of Jeb and then presumably work our way down the list until we get to Silverado Neil. If he trips in the sand that may not happen. Groegr says he does not care about the folks who will be grabbing those oil wells for him. No Yalies there, after all. But if he thinks nobody else cares he may be in for a very big surprise. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 23:49:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 07:49:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 7682 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 07:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 07:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 07:49:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 07:49:40 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:49:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3793 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title for her "Book of Dzyan". (of course the race theories are part of her own mix that she added to these others) Richard Bernstein, a New York Times book critic, has written a book titled Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist Monk Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment (2001), describing his own journey in the footsteps of Hsuan Tsang (AD 603 - 664). He notes that "any Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang Chronicles of the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics of Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky. The name of Hsuan Tsang is also written Xuan Zang, Hiouen Thsang, Huan Chwang, and Yuan Chwang. His name in Mandarin Chinese is pronounced "Shyu-ann Dzang". As you can see, "Dzang" is awfully close to "Dzyan". It seems possible to me that HPB may have cribbed the name of this monk to gain some authenticity with individuals who were vaguely familiar with Beal's translation of his writings. What do you think? http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask > > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact take > care of > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can > continue to be > > who he is. > > Hi, Bill: > > I don't have a clue as to what that statement means. I don't believe > anyone "loves" any of us, and if we end up a ward of the state, the > government won't take care of us just so we can continue to be who we > are. They will keep us in something slightly better than a > vegetative state until the Grim Reaper comes and gets us. I have > visited those places and could not wait to get out. Fortunately, the > medicare system is starting to rate nursing homes, but I don't know > how advanced a state that effort is in. It will be interesting to > see how much more highly rated are institutions for the ruling elite > than for the elderly poor who got ripped off by the investment > bankers. > > Iraq is an Arab country, and Scott Ritter publicly made some rather > frank comments about George Bush while he was there. Saddam did not > put him in jail to my knowledge. > > If Oil War II does not end quickly and leaves a lot of teenagers from > Iowa dying in convulsions from inhaling Sarin the jingoism in this > country will last about as long as a puff of hair spray. Bear in > mind the last urban combat our forces engaged in was in Mogaadishu, > and Aidid did not have nerve gases. If Bush starts an avoidable war > he is taking one hell of a political chance, and may well end the > Bush dynasty. You know of course that they are now saying after > eight years of George we will have to put up with eight years of Jeb > and then presumably work our way down the list until we get to > Silverado Neil. If he trips in the sand that may not happen. Groegr > says he does not care about the folks who will be grabbing those oil > wells for him. No Yalies there, after all. But if he thinks nobody > else cares he may be in for a very big surprise. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 16 00:09:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 08:09:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 28514 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 08:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 08:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 08:09:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id 6.de.306a5725 (1320); Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:09:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:09:21 EST Subject: How to Kill some SPAM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 YAHOO, "WEB BEACONS," AND PRIVACY STATEMENTS Do you sometimes feel like someone is tracking every site you visit on the internet? Do you find that your email spam is eerily targeted to your current interests? Do you use Yahoo? There might be a connection. Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track Yahoo Group users around the net. They collect your IP address and cookie set information to monitor your activities. They promise in their privacy policy not to sell the information, but they say they may "share" it. You might want to take a look at their updated privacy statement: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/pixels/details.html About halfway down the page in the section "Outside the Yahoo network," you will see a small "click here" that will let you opt out of their new method of snooping. I recommend doing this. Be careful: On the next screen is a button that will "undo" the opt-out if you click on it. The lesson here is that while nearly every site has a privacy statement, you should pay attention and actually read each one. Just having a privacy statement doesn't mean that the company intends to protect your privacy. In fact, many privacy statements now have opt-out buttons hidden within the statement. From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 01:00:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 09:00:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 41642 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 09:00:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 09:00:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13409.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.172.17) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 09:00:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20021116090045.15621.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.12.0.126] by web13409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:00:45 PST Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:00:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: fields - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Leon you say: "All causal relationships between fields should be determined by analogy and correspondence - since all fields are interdependently originated from a common non-local zero-point center and are "in coadunition but not in consubstantiality."" Could you please elaborate on your definition of a field? Cheers, mic __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 16 01:40:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 09:40:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 57383 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 09:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 09:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 09:40:02 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 76C394805FB for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:40:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000b01c28d53$666b3860$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:34:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Netemara and all of you, Well, according to my source Idries Shah the following could spark some afterthought on the Syrian Druzes which Dallas recently mentioned: According to some authors, and they are in the majority, "Sufi" is traceable to the Arabic word, pronounced "Soof", which - litterally means "wool", referring to the material from which the simple robes of the early Muslim mystics were made. These it is further claimed, were made of wool in imitation of the dress of Christian anchorites who abounded in the Syrian and Egyptian deserts and elsewhere in the Near and Middle East. ("Wool is the garb of animals", "As-Suf libas al-Inam": Arabic quotation from Hujwiri's "The revelation of the veiled"; See Sirdal Ikbal Ali Shah, "Islamic Sufism" (London, 1933), p.17 But this definition, plusible though it may appear, will not solve our problem as to name...Equally important lexicographers, however, stress that 'wool is the garb of animals' and emphasize that the Sufi objective is towards the perfectioning or completing of human mind, not the emulation of a herd; and that the Sufis, always highly conscious of symbolism, would never adopt such a name. Furthermore... (..and then we are given the story about "The Companions of the Bench", which I recently emailed.) *** Elsewhere: Sufi="wool". Externalists in the East and the West has often adopted this etymology, which therefore often appears in reference books as the derivation. (The word "externalists" could be siad to unveil some truth.) *** You can check this out: I dries Shah was not just a half-learned scholar - he knew a trick or two on wisdom for sure. It is also said somewhere in some of the scriptures from The Middle East, that the Armenian mystics wore white robes of wool - even before Christ came along. Maybe some of the more wellread ones can confirm that. But as stated by Idries Shah, - the sound of the word "Sufi" - i.e. "SSSUUUFFF" is maybe the key to the mystery. You know - sounds makes a certain penetration upon the brain. And those suited for the word "SUF" etc. they could be said to be the ones who get aquainted with the teaching. from M. Sufilight with himself entangled in Wool...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "netemara888" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:10 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? I just posted that on another forum that Sufi comes from sufl which means 'wool' like the woolen clothes they wore, as a retro to simple clothing in expressing direct displeasure over the rich caliphs and their fine clothing. That was from one reference source. I don't know if it is true or not. Netemara ************* -- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > > Hi Dallas and all of you, > > Thanks for your very kind answer Dallas. > > The following could maybe enhance something, while keeping in mind, that I > hold the below word "Sufi" to be the same as the word "Theosophist" - as the > Ancient Wisdom Teaching of all ages past: > > > The Sufis are also called - > "heart spies", "the lovers", "the builders", "the people of truth", "the > near ones", "the Masters", "the pillars", "the rose", --- or --- > "Mutassawif", "the Blamworhty", "those in white clothes" (a kind of > 'clairvoyant' version), ...etc. > ... > The Sufis claim that a certain kind of mental and other activity can > produce, under special conditions and with perticular efforts, what is > termed a higher working of the mind, leading to special perceptions whose > apparatus is latent in the ordinary man, Sufism is therefore the > transcending of ordinary limitations > > ... > It would maybe reduce the problems of the student to learn that it is said, > with all the authority of the Jewish Encyclopedia, that the Hebrew experts > regard the Cabbala and the Hasidim, the Jewish mystics, as originating with > Sufism or a tradition identical with it. > (*Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. XI, pp. 579,580,581 et passim. Jewish sages > regarded by Western Scholars as following the Spanish Sufi Schools include: > Juda Halevi of Toledo, in his Cuzari; Moses ben Ezra of Granada; Josef ben > Zadiq of Cordoba, in his Microcosmus; Samuel ben Tibbon; Simtob ben > Falaquera.*) > Neither would it encourage him/her to hear, that although the Sufis > themselves claim that their knowledge has existed for thousands of years, > they deny that is is - derivative, - affirming that it is equivalence of the > Hermetic, Phytagorean and Plantonic streams. (Identity of Sufi ideas with > ancient Egyptian, Phytagorean and Platonic schools noted; by M.A. Ubicini, > Letters on Turkey (London, 1856). > > Our still uninitiated student may by now be thoroughly confues; but he/she > had a glimpse of the problems of studying Sufi ideas, even if only because > he for himself can witness for himself the unproductive struggle of the > scholastics. > > ... > Since Sufi study is carried out mainly by direct methods (and it has known > to be conveyed entirely by gesture, symbol and demonstration), when we lose > this element in our study, relying upon books, we must be at the mercy of > those who advance al kinds of subjective theories. > ... > Serious problems in locating genuine and relevant Sufi ideas and practises > exist, too, for any student who has alreday met a watered-down, generalized > or partial variety of Sufism, wheather in the East or in the West. There are > many hundreds of people in America and Europe who practise 'dervish dance, > whirling or turning' in spite of the fact that it is psecifically on record > in easily accessible dervish litterature, that this practise was especially, > precribed, for local reasons, by Rumi (A great Sufi and poet; d. 1273) for > the people of Asia Minor in the region of Iconium. > (Shamsudin Ahmad El-Aflaki, Munaqib El-Arfin: trans. Redhouse as "The Acts > of Adepts" (London 1881); reprinted in facsimile ed. Kingston as "Legends > of the Sufis" (London 1965). See also El-Ghazali, "Alchemy of Happiness".) > > ****** > > There is the awkward fact, that the so-called Companions of the Bench - the > Ashab as-Safa - are traditionally soppposed to be the sufis of the time of > Mohammed (d. 632). It is said, that they formed themselves in to an esoteric > group in the year 623 A. D. And that their name is a derivation from the > phrase Ashab as-Safa. > "Sawfa" meaning "piety" and "saff" (contracted from the phrase 'First Rank > of the Worhty'). > > "saff" - "safran" - "sif" - "sign" - "design" ..... > > *** > These are the words taken in part from the Afghan Sufi - Idries Shah > (d.1996), who lived England. > *** > > To the reader: Feel free to enlighten us all... > > > from > M. Sufilight with some new sounds of..."free cultural mixing"...<:-) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "AA-B-Study" > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:24 PM > Subject: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? > > > > Nov 15 2002 > > > > Re: "Sufi" -- ( also "white," and "pure") > > > > Dear Friend: > > > > Here is an entry from H P B's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 311 > > > > SUFFISM (Gr.). From the root of Sophia, "Wisdom ". A mystical sect in > > Persia something like the Vedantins; though very strong in numbers, > > none but very intelligent men join it. They claim, and very justly, > > the possession of the esoteric philosophy and doctrine of true > > Mohammedanism. The Suffi (or Sofi) doctrine is a good deal in touch > > with Theosophy, inasmuch as it preaches one universal creed, and > > outward respect and tolerance for every popular exoteric faith. It is > > also in touch with Masonry. The Suffis have four degrees and four > > stages of initiation:1st, probationary, with a strict outward > > observance of Mussulman rites, the hidden meaning of each ceremony and > > dogma being explained to the candidate; 2nd, metaphysical training; > > 3rd, the "Wisdom" degree, when the candidate is initiated into the > > innermost nature of things; and 4 final Truth, when the Adept attains > > divine powers, and complete union with the One Universal Deity in > > ecstacy or Samâdhi. > > > > Other references in the same book will be found on pp 36, 105, 118, > > 156, 158, 216, > > > > On p. 280 the mysterious force ROWANEE is mentioned and H P B prints > > there a contribution by W. W. W WESTCOTT > > > > ROWHANEE (Eg.) or Er-Roohanee. is the Magic of modern Egypt, supposed > > to proceed from Angels and Spirits, that is Genii, and by the use of > > the mystery names of Allah; they distinguish two forms-Ilwee, that is > > the Higher or White Magic; and Suflee and Sheytanee, the Lower or > > Black Demoniac Magic. There is also Es-Seemuja, which is deception or > > conjuring. Opinions differ as to the importance of a branch of Magic > > called Darb el Mendel, or as Barker calls it in English, the Mendal: > > by this is meant a form of artificial clairvoyance, exhibited by a > > young boy before puberty, or a virgin, who, as the result of > > self-fascination by gazing on a pool of ink in the hand, with > > coincident use of incense and incantation, sees certain scenes of real > > life passing over its surface. Many Eastern travellers have narrated > > instances, as E. W. Lane in his Modern Egyptians and his Thousand and > > One Nights, and E. B. Barker; the incidents have been introduced also > > into many works of fiction, such as Marryat's Phantom Ship, and a > > similar idea is interwoven with the story of Rose Mary and the Beryl > > stone, a poem by Rossetti. For a superficial attempt at explanation, > > see the Quarterly Review, No.117 [w.w.w.] > > > > In another place (same book, p. 105) H P B indicates there is a > > connection between the Sufis and the Druzes of Lebanon and Syria > > > > DRUZES . A large sect, numbering about 100,000 adherents, living on > > Mount Lebanon in Syria. Their rites are very mysterious, and no > > traveller, who has written anything about them, knows for a certainty > > the whole truth. They are the Sufis of Syria. They resent being called > > Druzes as an insult, but call themselves the "disciples of Hamsa ", > > their Messiah, who came to them in the ninth century from the "Land of > > the Word of God", which land and word they kept religiously secret. > > The Messiah to come will be the same Hamsa, but called Hakem-the > > All-Healer ". (See Isis Unveiled, II 308, et seq.) > > > > In the Glossary (p. 36) another reference associates them with the > > "Assassins" > > > > ASSASSINS . A masonic and mystic order founded by Hassan Sabah in > > Persia, in the eleventh century. The word is a European perversion of > > "Hassan ", which forms the chief part of the name. > > They were simply Sufis and addicted, according to the tradition, to > > hascheesl-eating, in order to bring about celestial visions. As shown > > by our late brother, Kenneth Mackenzie, "they were teachers of the > > secret doctrines of Islamism; they encouraged mathematics and > > philosophy, and produced many valuable works. The chief of the Order > > was called Sheik-el-Jebel, translated the 'Old Man of the Mountains', > > and, as their Grand Master, lie possessed power of life and death.' > > ( p. 36) > > > > Thus the secret "societies" including the ancient order of "Masons," > > (builders, cosmocratores) was shown to be united in their teachings > > concerning the origins and purpose of the World and our universe. > > > > Another entry of interest is here given ( p. 37) > > > > ASSYRIAN HOLY SCRIPTURES. Orientalists show seven such hooks: the > > Books of Mamit, of Worship, of Interpretations, of Going to Hades; two > > Prayer Books (Kanmagarri and Kanmikri: Talbot) and the Kantolité, the > > lost Assyrian Psalter. (p. 37) > > > > ASSYRIAN TREE OF LIFE . "Asherah" (q.v.). It is translated in the > > Bible by "grove ' and occurs 30 times. It is called an "idol"; and > > Maachah, the grandmother of Asa, King of Jerusalem, is accused of > > having made for herself such an idol, which was a lingham. For > > centuries this was a religious rite in Judća. But the original Asherah > > was a pillar with seven branches on each side surmounted by a globular > > flower with three projecting rays, and no phallic stone, as the Jews > > made of it, but a metaphysical symbol. "Merciful One, who dead to life > > raises! was the prayer uttered before the Asherah, on the banks of the > > Euphrates. The "Merciful One ", was neither the personal god of the > > Jews who brought the "grove" from their captivity, nor any extra- > > cosmic god, but THE HIGHER TRIAD IN MAN SYMBOLIZED BY THE GLOBULAR > > FLOWER WITH ITS THREE RAYS. ( p. 37) > > > > Further investigation shows a relationship with "Hamsa" as follows: > > (p. 134) > > HAMSA OR HANSA (Sk.) "Swan or goose", according to the Orientalists ; > > a mystical bird in Occultism analogous to the Rosicrucian Pelican. > > Tile sacred mystic name which, when preceded by that of KALA (infinite > > time), i.e. Kalahansa, is name of Parabrahm ; meaning the " Bird out > > of space and time". Hence Brahmâ (male)is called Hansa Vahana "the > > Vehicle of Hansa (the Bird). We find the same idea in the Zohar, where > > Ain Suph (the endless and infinite) is said to descend into the > > universe, for purposes of manifestation, using Adam Kadmon (Humanity) > > as a chariot or vehicle. > > > > HAMSA (Arab.). The founder of the mystic sect of the Druzes of Mount > > Lebanon. (See "Druzes" .) [ see above ] (see MAHATMA LETTERS p. 116, > > Modern Panarion p. 375, S D II p. 27; H P B Articles III 281... > > "Lamas and Druzes" -- showing a relationship with the Tibetan > > Esoteric philosophies. > > > > ISIS UNVEILED makes a very interesting reading if one is in search of > > evidence relating to the past of Theosophy as seen in and at the base > > of every ancient Theogony, Religion or Secret Society. These were > > also closely related to the Egyptian and Greek MYSTERIES. > > Best wishes > > > > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@a...] > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:38 AM > > To: Theos-Talk > > Subject: Theos-World The word Sufi... > > > > Hi all of you, > > > > It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. > > It is said to have German origin from year 1821. > > The book by the author F.A.G. Thöluck is titled: "Ssufismus sive > > Theosophia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin > > The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is > > interesting. > > As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting > > to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading took > > place at all. > > Someone says that the word has a distinct sound called 'SSSUUUFFF'. > > > > Do any of you have anything on this ? > > > > from > > M. Sufilight > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 02:19:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 10:19:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 16145 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 10:19:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 10:19:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 10:19:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 10:19:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:19:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5326 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Well I do have to ad something to the previous posting Reg. "any Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang Chronicles of the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics of Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky." Brian: I read another version of this in the late 1970's. This was in Karl H. Frick's "Licht und Finsterniss " ( his next book "Die Erleuchtette" continues his overview of Masonic and occult movements that time). He also mentions this " tale of the mad monk" Hsuan Tsang yet mentioned a translation of this as "the Stanzas" in Italian that appeared ten years before "The Secret Doctrine." Although there is no further evidence that Blavatsky in fact used that book as an idea, biographical fact is, she did know Italian. reg. "Stanzas," Blavatsky indeed uses this definite Italian word, rather then the English "verses". http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/ --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title for > her "Book of Dzyan". (of course the race theories are part of her own > mix that she added to these others) > > Richard Bernstein, a New York Times book critic, has written a book > titled Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist Monk > Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment (2001), describing his > own journey in the footsteps of Hsuan Tsang (AD 603 - 664). He notes > that "any Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns > who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own > account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang Chronicles of > the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- > scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics of > Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the > consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European > readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky. > > The name of Hsuan Tsang is also written Xuan Zang, Hiouen Thsang, > Huan Chwang, and Yuan Chwang. His name in Mandarin Chinese is > pronounced "Shyu-ann Dzang". As you can see, "Dzang" is awfully close > to "Dzyan". It seems possible to me that HPB may have cribbed the > name of this monk to gain some authenticity with individuals who were > vaguely familiar with Beal's translation of his writings. > > What do you think? > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > > No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask > > > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact take > > care of > > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can > > continue to be > > > who he is. > > > > Hi, Bill: > > > > I don't have a clue as to what that statement means. I don't believe > > anyone "loves" any of us, and if we end up a ward of the state, the > > government won't take care of us just so we can continue to be who > we > > are. They will keep us in something slightly better than a > > vegetative state until the Grim Reaper comes and gets us. I have > > visited those places and could not wait to get out. Fortunately, the > > medicare system is starting to rate nursing homes, but I don't know > > how advanced a state that effort is in. It will be interesting to > > see how much more highly rated are institutions for the ruling elite > > than for the elderly poor who got ripped off by the investment > > bankers. > > > > Iraq is an Arab country, and Scott Ritter publicly made some rather > > frank comments about George Bush while he was there. Saddam did > not > > put him in jail to my knowledge. > > > > If Oil War II does not end quickly and leaves a lot of teenagers from > > Iowa dying in convulsions from inhaling Sarin the jingoism in this > > country will last about as long as a puff of hair spray. Bear in > > mind the last urban combat our forces engaged in was in Mogaadishu, > > and Aidid did not have nerve gases. If Bush starts an avoidable war > > he is taking one hell of a political chance, and may well end the > > Bush dynasty. You know of course that they are now saying after > > eight years of George we will have to put up with eight years of Jeb > > and then presumably work our way down the list until we get to > > Silverado Neil. If he trips in the sand that may not happen. Groegr > > says he does not care about the folks who will be grabbing those oil > > wells for him. No Yalies there, after all. But if he thinks nobody > > else cares he may be in for a very big surprise. From teos9@aol.com Sat Nov 16 04:15:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 12:15:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 89904 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 12:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 12:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 12:15:53 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.d0.3004eeed (4238) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:15:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:15:48 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, There are certain individuals on all mailing lists that are irritating and often times down right infuriating. They become known to us over repeated visits to our favorite lists. I have found that using the DELETE button, before opening the message, is the most effective way to deal with such characters. After reading a few messages from these individuals, and finding that further reading, continues to irritate us, that they cannot or will not change their writing style, their thought patterns, their negative effects, their worthless contributions, it should become clear that nothing we can say, or do, will change who they have become. At that point my recommendation is to let them wither on the vine as it were, until they loose their grip, for want of life giving "input" and fall off. DELETE, DELETE, DELETE! Louis In a message dated 11/15/2002 11:16:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, adelasie@surfari.net writes: > Dear Wes, > > In a post to Brian/Brigitte you said: > > > Just what is your purpose in "contributing" to this list? To prove > > that there are "experts" in academia who share your views? To > > dissuade inquirers from looking into Theosophy? To attack your least > > favorite historical personages and hope that others will come to share > > your biases? > > After reading (or trying to ignore) the persistent "contributions" > from this person over the past year or so, I have begun to realize > that the best way to view such a phenomenon is as an impersonal > force, that which seeks to separate, disintegrate, and destroy, all > that tends toward unity and brotherhood. As a personality it is a > cipher, protected by cyber space and capable of transformation to > some extent, and camoflage. But as a force it is very familiar. It > seeks a fight. It is unprincipled and gives itself complete license > to say or do anything that will elicit a response, thus throwing the > responder off balance. That is its victory. Take a look at the state > of the world, the tremendous issues hanging in the balance for the > whole human race. It wasn't an accident that Theosophy manifested at > this point in the evolution of humanity. Theosophists have important > work to do, and we can be effective, on inner planes and outer, but > we have to be in control of ourselves first. So along comes this > annoying stinging insect, and we get busy slapping at it, and forget > all about the fact that our survival is at stake. > > Adelasie > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 16 04:19:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 12:19:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 94063 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 12:19:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 12:19:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 12:19:06 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18D1uj-0001S3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 04:19:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD637C2.1CC20204@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:19:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > The name of Hsuan Tsang is also written Xuan Zang, Hiouen Thsang, > Huan Chwang, and Yuan Chwang. His name in Mandarin Chinese is > pronounced "Shyu-ann Dzang". As you can see, "Dzang" is awfully close > to "Dzyan". It seems possible to me that HPB may have cribbed the > name of this monk to gain some authenticity with individuals who were > vaguely familiar with Beal's translation of his writings. > > What do you think? If you learn to speak Mandarin, you will find that many of the words sound, to a Western ear, as if you were sneezing. Or, to put it another way, I think you're making too far a stretch. To expand on this a bit more, one should also note that the idea of there being a Chinese language with numerous dialects is, linguistically speaking, bullshit. Other than the fact that the various languages of China use 5 tones as part of their meanings, most of the so-called "dialects" are as different from each other as French and German. The reason why Chinese writing is in picture form is because it is not a written form of any language, but a language in and of itself, but in the form of written symbols rather than spoken symbols; it was a means by which scholars speaking different languages could create written records understandable by all. That is the reason why names, especially names which are really titles (like Lao-Tse) can have so many alternative spellings in Western languages; because they can differ widely among Chinese people, and narrow-minded Westerners confused different languages with different accents and idioms of the same language. Bart Lidofsky From teos9@aol.com Sat Nov 16 04:27:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 12:27:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 2092 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 12:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 12:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 12:27:02 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.5b.3167d781 (4238) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:26:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5b.3167d781.2b079391@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:26:57 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World How to Kill some SPAM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Leon, This is the kind of service we can do for one another that is really useful. No matter what kind of lists or boards we sign on to, it is important to know the inner workings of all the various privacy issues. The Internet can be a frightening place to be if one does not know the rules. Thanks again. Louis In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:10:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > YAHOO, "WEB BEACONS," AND PRIVACY STATEMENTS > > > Do you sometimes feel like someone is tracking every site you visit on > > the internet? Do you find that your email spam is eerily targeted to > > your current interests? Do you use Yahoo? There might be a connection. > > Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track Yahoo Group users around the > > net. They collect your IP address and cookie set information to monitor > > your activities. They promise in their privacy policy not to sell the > > information, but they say they may "share" it. You might want to take a > > look at their updated privacy statement: > > > http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/pixels/details.html > > > About halfway down the page in the section "Outside the Yahoo network," > > you will see a small "click here" that will let you opt out of their > > new method of snooping. I recommend doing this. Be careful: On the next > > screen is a button that will "undo" the opt-out if you click on it. > > > The lesson here is that while nearly every site has a privacy > > statement, you should pay attention and actually read each one. Just > > having a privacy statement doesn't mean that the company intends to > > protect your privacy. In fact, many privacy statements now have opt-out > > buttons hidden within the statement. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 16 04:37:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 12:37:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 45182 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 12:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 12:37:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 12:37:45 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18D2Cn-00047X-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 04:37:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD63C21.E6C4AC0B@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:37:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon References: <20021116090045.15621.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Mic Forster wrote: > Could you please elaborate on your definition of a > field? You didn't ask me, but I once heard a wonderfully elegant definition of a field: Something which takes up space, has a measurable and predictable effect on matter and energy, but of which we otherwise know nothing. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 16 05:43:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 13:43:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 88073 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 13:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 13:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 13:43:55 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-41.look.ca ([216.154.45.88] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18D3Eh-0003Zs-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3DD64BD1.C2C73AE6@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 08:44:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re field Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: * From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bart wrote: <> Hmm. Crop circles come to mind . . . Speculatively, Mauri From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 06:30:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 14:30:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 4417 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 14:30:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 14:30:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 14:30:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 14:30:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:30:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c28d53$666b3860$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 18906 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Hi Mort, I think I need some better scholarship on the Sufis. When I was at=20 Notre Dame this summer I noticed that a new Encylopedia about Sufism=20 and the like had just been published by a Middle Eastern scholar. I=20 wish I had that book title now. But I see your drift. It is like=20 the "HU HU" sound, and the other sounds that imitate the natural=20 sound current heard inside one's head. Now, the gurus that Daniel and=20 I were discussing and juxtaposing them with TS teach such a yoga. It=20 is called Surap Shabd. Okay, there is that prefix again "su" it is=20 one of those sounds that is perhaps common to man like "mu or ma" and=20 the root of the word mother in every tongue imaginable. You are=20 making me wax Blavatsky here, but I will see where this line of=20 thought leads, anyway the reference I made and you made also link the=20 Sufis to whom else? But the Christian forefathers who also broke away=20 from the mainstream and began their own line of clothing--no, not=20 that line, just kidding.=20 But seriously they were the keepers of the records and the flame so=20 to speak. They did wear long robes of wool probably because wool=20 breathes. Whether it is hot or cold you can wear wool. I don't know=20 if people realize that but you can. And as an anthropologist I have=20 to ask myself what was available to those people in terms of woolen=20 things? You can't get wool out of turnip...hehehehe..... Blavatsky says her arm hurts now, so I will give her a rest. Talk to=20 you. Let's keep looking for this. I will try to go to the library=20 today or bookstore. Netemara POST SCRIPT: One thing I find that may be inaccurate in your=20 statement BELOW about the Christian anchorites is this: Were there=20 anchorites in the desert? Do you know what that term means and=20 references? In England Julian of Norwich was an anchorite because she=20 lived permanently in one place, one room. There were rules for the=20 anchorites "Anchorweiss" (sp) I have to find the title but it means=20 anchorite wisdom, and was their rules of order. But the straw is that=20 they NEVER leave this one room cell, that is their ANCHOR, they are=20 anchored to it, tied and bound to it spiritually. I do not know if=20 the desert fathers like Anthanisus of Egpyt were also called=20 anchorites--I doubt it. That is my other line of scholarship and study other than TS. That=20 the Sufis imitated the Christians in this respect makes me happy. **************** Note to Mort: can I forward this post with your comments on it? Thanks --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi Netemara and all of you, >=20 > Well, according to my source Idries Shah the following could spark=20 some > afterthought on the Syrian Druzes > which Dallas recently mentioned: >=20 > According to some authors, and they are in the majority, "Sufi" is=20 traceable > to the Arabic word, pronounced > "Soof", which - litterally means "wool", referring to the material=20 from > which the simple robes of the early Muslim mystics were made. These=20 it is > further claimed, were made of wool in imitation of the dress of=20 Christian > anchorites who abounded in the Syrian and Egyptian deserts and=20 elsewhere in > the Near and Middle East. > ("Wool is the garb of animals", "As-Suf libas al-Inam": Arabic=20 quotation > from Hujwiri's "The revelation of the veiled"; See Sirdal Ikbal Ali=20 Shah, > "Islamic Sufism" (London, 1933), p.17 > But this definition, plusible though it may appear, will not solve=20 our > problem as to name...Equally important lexicographers, however,=20 stress that > 'wool is the garb of animals' and emphasize that the Sufi objective=20 is > towards the perfectioning or completing of human mind, not the=20 emulation of > a herd; and that the Sufis, always highly conscious of symbolism,=20 would > never adopt such a name. Furthermore... >=20 > (..and then we are given the story about "The Companions of the=20 Bench", > which I recently emailed.) >=20 > *** > Elsewhere: Sufi=3D"wool". Externalists in the East and the West has=20 often > adopted this etymology, which therefore often appears in reference=20 books as > the derivation. > (The word "externalists" could be siad to unveil some truth.) >=20 > *** > You can check this out: I > dries Shah was not just a half-learned scholar - he knew a trick or=20 two on > wisdom for sure. >=20 > It is also said somewhere in some of the scriptures from The Middle=20 East, > that the Armenian mystics wore white robes of wool - even before=20 Christ > came along. Maybe some of the more wellread ones can confirm that. >=20 > But as stated by Idries Shah, - the sound of the word "Sufi" - i.e. > "SSSUUUFFF" is maybe the key to the mystery. > You know - sounds makes a certain penetration upon the brain. And=20 those > suited for the word "SUF" etc. they could be said to be the ones=20 who get > aquainted with the teaching. >=20 >=20 >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with himself entangled in Wool...>:-) >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "netemara888" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:10 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? >=20 >=20 > I just posted that on another forum that Sufi comes from sufl which > means 'wool' like the woolen clothes they wore, as a retro to simple > clothing in expressing direct displeasure over the rich caliphs and > their fine clothing. That was from one reference source. I don't=20 know > if it is true or not. >=20 > Netemara > ************* >=20 > -- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > wrote: > > > > Hi Dallas and all of you, > > > > Thanks for your very kind answer Dallas. > > > > The following could maybe enhance something, while keeping in=20 mind, > that I > > hold the below word "Sufi" to be the same as the > word "Theosophist" - as the > > Ancient Wisdom Teaching of all ages past: > > > > > > The Sufis are also called - > > "heart spies", "the lovers", "the builders", "the people of > truth", "the > > near ones", "the Masters", "the pillars", "the rose", --- or --- > > "Mutassawif", "the Blamworhty", "those in white clothes" (a kind=20 of > > 'clairvoyant' version), ...etc. > > ... > > The Sufis claim that a certain kind of mental and other activity=20 can > > produce, under special conditions and with perticular efforts,=20 what > is > > termed a higher working of the mind, leading to special=20 perceptions > whose > > apparatus is latent in the ordinary man, Sufism is therefore the > > transcending of ordinary limitations > > > > ... > > It would maybe reduce the problems of the student to learn that it > is said, > > with all the authority of the Jewish Encyclopedia, that the Hebrew > experts > > regard the Cabbala and the Hasidim, the Jewish mystics, as > originating with > > Sufism or a tradition identical with it. > > (*Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. XI, pp. 579,580,581 et passim. Jewish > sages > > regarded by Western Scholars as following the Spanish Sufi Schools > include: > > Juda Halevi of Toledo, in his Cuzari; Moses ben Ezra of Granada; > Josef ben > > Zadiq of Cordoba, in his Microcosmus; Samuel ben Tibbon; Simtob=20 ben > > Falaquera.*) > > Neither would it encourage him/her to hear, that although the=20 Sufis > > themselves claim that their knowledge has existed for thousands of > years, > > they deny that is is - derivative, - affirming that it is > equivalence of the > > Hermetic, Phytagorean and Plantonic streams. (Identity of Sufi > ideas with > > ancient Egyptian, Phytagorean and Platonic schools noted; by M.A. > Ubicini, > > Letters on Turkey (London, 1856). > > > > Our still uninitiated student may by now be thoroughly confues;=20 but > he/she > > had a glimpse of the problems of studying Sufi ideas, even if only > because > > he for himself can witness for himself the unproductive struggle=20 of > the > > scholastics. > > > > ... > > Since Sufi study is carried out mainly by direct methods (and it > has known > > to be conveyed entirely by gesture, symbol and demonstration),=20 when > we lose > > this element in our study, relying upon books, we must be at the > mercy of > > those who advance al kinds of subjective theories. > > ... > > Serious problems in locating genuine and relevant Sufi ideas and > practises > > exist, too, for any student who has alreday met a watered-down, > generalized > > or partial variety of Sufism, wheather in the East or in the West. > There are > > many hundreds of people in America and Europe who=20 practise 'dervish > dance, > > whirling or turning' in spite of the fact that it is psecifically > on record > > in easily accessible dervish litterature, that this practise was > especially, > > precribed, for local reasons, by Rumi (A great Sufi and poet; d. > 1273) for > > the people of Asia Minor in the region of Iconium. > > (Shamsudin Ahmad El-Aflaki, Munaqib El-Arfin: trans. Redhouse > as "The Acts > > of Adepts" (London 1881); reprinted in facsimile ed. Kingston > as "Legends > > of the Sufis" (London 1965). See also El-Ghazali, "Alchemy of > Happiness".) > > > > ****** > > > > There is the awkward fact, that the so-called Companions of the > Bench - the > > Ashab as-Safa - are traditionally soppposed to be the sufis of the > time of > > Mohammed (d. 632). It is said, that they formed themselves in to=20 an > esoteric > > group in the year 623 A. D. And that their name is a derivation > from the > > phrase Ashab as-Safa. > > "Sawfa" meaning "piety" and "saff" (contracted from the > phrase 'First Rank > > of the Worhty'). > > > > "saff" - "safran" - "sif" - "sign" - "design" ..... > > > > *** > > These are the words taken in part from the Afghan Sufi - Idries=20 Shah > > (d.1996), who lived England. > > *** > > > > To the reader: Feel free to enlighten us all... > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with some new sounds of..."free cultural=20 mixing"...<:-) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "AA-B-Study" > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:24 PM > > Subject: Theos-World RE: Where does the word Sufi originate ? > > > > > > > Nov 15 2002 > > > > > > Re: "Sufi" -- ( also "white," and "pure") > > > > > > Dear Friend: > > > > > > Here is an entry from H P B's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 311 > > > > > > SUFFISM (Gr.). From the root of Sophia, "Wisdom ". A mystical > sect in > > > Persia something like the Vedantins; though very strong in > numbers, > > > none but very intelligent men join it. They claim, and very > justly, > > > the possession of the esoteric philosophy and doctrine of true > > > Mohammedanism. The Suffi (or Sofi) doctrine is a good deal in > touch > > > with Theosophy, inasmuch as it preaches one universal creed, and > > > outward respect and tolerance for every popular exoteric faith. > It is > > > also in touch with Masonry. The Suffis have four degrees and=20 four > > > stages of initiation:1st, probationary, with a strict outward > > > observance of Mussulman rites, the hidden meaning of each > ceremony and > > > dogma being explained to the candidate; 2nd, metaphysical > training; > > > 3rd, the "Wisdom" degree, when the candidate is initiated into=20 the > > > innermost nature of things; and 4 final Truth, when the Adept > attains > > > divine powers, and complete union with the One Universal Deity=20 in > > > ecstacy or Sam=E2dhi. > > > > > > Other references in the same book will be found on pp 36, 105, > 118, > > > 156, 158, 216, > > > > > > On p. 280 the mysterious force ROWANEE is mentioned and H P B > prints > > > there a contribution by W. W. W WESTCOTT > > > > > > ROWHANEE (Eg.) or Er-Roohanee. is the Magic of modern Egypt, > supposed > > > to proceed from Angels and Spirits, that is Genii, and by the=20 use > of > > > the mystery names of Allah; they distinguish two forms-Ilwee, > that is > > > the Higher or White Magic; and Suflee and Sheytanee, the Lower=20 or > > > Black Demoniac Magic. There is also Es-Seemuja, which is > deception or > > > conjuring. Opinions differ as to the importance of a branch of > Magic > > > called Darb el Mendel, or as Barker calls it in English, the > Mendal: > > > by this is meant a form of artificial clairvoyance, exhibited=20 by a > > > young boy before puberty, or a virgin, who, as the result of > > > self-fascination by gazing on a pool of ink in the hand, with > > > coincident use of incense and incantation, sees certain scenes=20 of > real > > > life passing over its surface. Many Eastern travellers have > narrated > > > instances, as E. W. Lane in his Modern Egyptians and his=20 Thousand > and > > > One Nights, and E. B. Barker; the incidents have been introduced > also > > > into many works of fiction, such as Marryat's Phantom Ship, and=20 a > > > similar idea is interwoven with the story of Rose Mary and the > Beryl > > > stone, a poem by Rossetti. For a superficial attempt at > explanation, > > > see the Quarterly Review, No.117 [w.w.w.] > > > > > > In another place (same book, p. 105) H P B indicates there is a > > > connection between the Sufis and the Druzes of Lebanon and Syria > > > > > > DRUZES . A large sect, numbering about 100,000 adherents, living > on > > > Mount Lebanon in Syria. Their rites are very mysterious, and no > > > traveller, who has written anything about them, knows for a > certainty > > > the whole truth. They are the Sufis of Syria. They resent being > called > > > Druzes as an insult, but call themselves the "disciples of > Hamsa ", > > > their Messiah, who came to them in the ninth century from > the "Land of > > > the Word of God", which land and word they kept religiously > secret. > > > The Messiah to come will be the same Hamsa, but called Hakem-the > > > All-Healer ". (See Isis Unveiled, II 308, et seq.) > > > > > > In the Glossary (p. 36) another reference associates them with > the > > > "Assassins" > > > > > > ASSASSINS . A masonic and mystic order founded by Hassan Sabah > in > > > Persia, in the eleventh century. The word is a European > perversion of > > > "Hassan ", which forms the chief part of the name. > > > They were simply Sufis and addicted, according to the tradition, > to > > > hascheesl-eating, in order to bring about celestial visions. As > shown > > > by our late brother, Kenneth Mackenzie, "they were teachers of=20 the > > > secret doctrines of Islamism; they encouraged mathematics and > > > philosophy, and produced many valuable works. The chief of the > Order > > > was called Sheik-el-Jebel, translated the 'Old Man of the > Mountains', > > > and, as their Grand Master, lie possessed power of life and > death.' > > > ( p. 36) > > > > > > Thus the secret "societies" including the ancient order > of "Masons," > > > (builders, cosmocratores) was shown to be united in their > teachings > > > concerning the origins and purpose of the World and our=20 universe. > > > > > > Another entry of interest is here given ( p. 37) > > > > > > ASSYRIAN HOLY SCRIPTURES. Orientalists show seven such hooks:=20 the > > > Books of Mamit, of Worship, of Interpretations, of Going to > Hades; two > > > Prayer Books (Kanmagarri and Kanmikri: Talbot) and the=20 Kantolit=E9, > the > > > lost Assyrian Psalter. (p. 37) > > > > > > ASSYRIAN TREE OF LIFE . "Asherah" (q.v.). It is translated in=20 the > > > Bible by "grove ' and occurs 30 times. It is called an "idol";=20 and > > > Maachah, the grandmother of Asa, King of Jerusalem, is accused=20 of > > > having made for herself such an idol, which was a lingham. For > > > centuries this was a religious rite in Jud=E6a. But the original > Asherah > > > was a pillar with seven branches on each side surmounted by a > globular > > > flower with three projecting rays, and no phallic stone, as the > Jews > > > made of it, but a metaphysical symbol. "Merciful One, who dead=20 to > life > > > raises! was the prayer uttered before the Asherah, on the banks > of the > > > Euphrates. The "Merciful One ", was neither the personal god of > the > > > Jews who brought the "grove" from their captivity, nor any=20 extra- > > > cosmic god, but THE HIGHER TRIAD IN MAN SYMBOLIZED BY THE=20 GLOBULAR > > > FLOWER WITH ITS THREE RAYS. ( p. 37) > > > > > > Further investigation shows a relationship with "Hamsa" as > follows: > > > (p. 134) > > > HAMSA OR HANSA (Sk.) "Swan or goose", according to the > Orientalists ; > > > a mystical bird in Occultism analogous to the Rosicrucian=20 Pelican. > > > Tile sacred mystic name which, when preceded by that of KALA > (infinite > > > time), i.e. Kalahansa, is name of Parabrahm ; meaning the " Bird > out > > > of space and time". Hence Brahm=E2 (male)is called Hansa=20 Vahana "the > > > Vehicle of Hansa (the Bird). We find the same idea in the Zohar, > where > > > Ain Suph (the endless and infinite) is said to descend into the > > > universe, for purposes of manifestation, using Adam Kadmon > (Humanity) > > > as a chariot or vehicle. > > > > > > HAMSA (Arab.). The founder of the mystic sect of the Druzes of > Mount > > > Lebanon. (See "Druzes" .) [ see above ] (see MAHATMA LETTERS=20 p. > 116, > > > Modern Panarion p. 375, S D II p. 27; H P B Articles III > 281... > > > "Lamas and Druzes" -- showing a relationship with the Tibetan > > > Esoteric philosophies. > > > > > > ISIS UNVEILED makes a very interesting reading if one is in > search of > > > evidence relating to the past of Theosophy as seen in and at the > base > > > of every ancient Theogony, Religion or Secret Society. These=20 were > > > also closely related to the Egyptian and Greek MYSTERIES. > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@a...] > > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 9:38 AM > > > To: Theos-Talk > > > Subject: Theos-World The word Sufi... > > > > > > Hi all of you, > > > > > > It is said that the word "Sufi" is a new one. > > > It is said to have German origin from year 1821. > > > The book by the author F.A.G. Th=F6luck is titled: "Ssufismus sive > > > Theosophia Persarum pantheistica" (Berlin 1821) - yes - in latin > > > The book has a title with the word Theosophy in it, and that is > > > interesting. > > > As H. P. Blavatsky uses the word "sufi", it could be interesting > > > to know in which books she has read that term --- if any reading > took > > > place at all. > > > Someone says that the word has a distinct sound > called 'SSSUUUFFF'. > > > > > > Do any of you have anything on this ? > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 06:39:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 14:39:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 43748 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 14:39:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 14:39:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 14:39:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 14:39:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:39:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Rumi, Rumours and Scandals? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4255 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.37 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" wrote: This is a repost because I want to make a point about worshipping anyone in the flesh. We are not to worship anyone, but we love everyone. Rumi was a saint no doubt in my estimation. But was he a Master who came here to return souls? Probably not. Did he have karmic ties to others in his life? Certainly he did if this scholastic account I found is true. Did Jesus have karmic ties with those he found in his life as Jesus certainly he did. Did the RS Masters I followed for 22 years have karma, yes they most certainly did. If you read long enough on the web you will probably find a group or authors, in progress, who expose these groups as rabid cults. The definition of a cult is such that a charismatic leader is followed and worshipped or loved by his followers in a 'love is blind' sort of way. But what is also implied is that the leader is giving something of himself to those people and that group. But what the detractors focus on is what is THE leader getting in return from his group. Is he or she taking credit for what God has already planted in each and every one of us? Namaste Net ****************** --- In radhasoamistudies@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > The following quotes are from "Biographical Encyclopedia of Sufis" by > N. Hanif (printed in India)--first edition 2002 > > "Now Rumi left off teaching and preaching and spent days and nights in > the company of Shams. It was rumoured that a magician had bewitched > the great divine. Rumi's sons and disciples turned against Shams > whom they considered to be a chalatan and sorcerer....Something > happened which turned Rumi's son Ala al-Din (Rumi was Iranian by the > way) against Shams and others joined him with the result that Shams > disappeared for good....other biographies are full of the accord that > Shams was assassinated by Rumi's disciples and the author of "Nafahat > al-Uns" mentions the name of Rumi's son as his murderer...the > disappearance of Shams took place in about 645/1247." > > "Rumi had no intention of either founding a new sect or initiating a > new movement; his devotees and disciples, however, did form a > distinctive group after his death, but they developed and perpetuated > only some external observances and rituals and degenerated into a > community of whirling dervishes. A felt-cap without a seam--the > leaders also wrapping a turban around it and wearing voluminous > trousers of many folds." > > Naturally Rumi, as any true Saint was against such imitation and "With Rumi ecstatic dance accompanied by spontaneously gushing forth lyrics was an involuntary expression of a deeply stirred soul." > > page 386-387. > > ******** > > I was walking out of the library here at Notre Dame and I happened to spot this book with another on the shelf as new arrivals in the > Reference Department. And I wanted to answer my own question about > the whirling dervishes. But found a bit of scandal to go with it. It seems then that Shams was Rumi's guru and Rumi became an almost > instant overnight success with his ecstatic poems? > > Just goes to show that even the Saints (makes you wonder about the NO KARMA THING ABOUT Saints--does it not?) are not above having karmic scandals mushroom around them. For me this puts to rest the bit about Sants having no karma, it just is not true. And where does karma flow? It flows from having past lives. With this new biographical book (2) on Sufis, heck I could trace back all the past lives of the "Sants" we have here been discussing...I'm taking bets....Will find > Rebazar too.....just kidding..... > > ************ > > Historical question: > > Does anybody know the history of the turban as it relates to India > itself? I know that the Arabs and those in desert countries always > covered heads and bodies because of the intense sun and heat but where > did the turban come from and did it become at some point a symbol or > essence of the "guru?" Was it all born out of the Middle East and > modified from country to country in terms of style and importance? > > Net --- End forwarded message --- From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 06:50:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 22284 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:50:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7432 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Brian: It goes back to the definition of 'master' one who recognizes Truth. And Blavatsky is a master at recognizing the truth in whatever form it appears. That she may have 'borrowed' or used this book is of no moment to me, because in my mind she may have been that man in that Chinese incarnation and written it her darn self in that life. This book may have never come to light and been the influence it had been had she not recognized it. And I know she spoke/knew Italian because she and her family had reincarnated many times into the Italian ethnic/mediterrean group. Besides Italian is easy to read, and THE easiest Romantic language to learn--it's a no brainer compared to French. Now is this author saying she copied it verbatim? The Voice is based on the Stanzas of Dyzan right? And people have said it here and there that there is no such thing as Senzar language as she called it? Is that right? Well, she gets credit for no other reason than translating the thing into English. And if my memory serves me correctly that she said that she pulled this out of her master's (MM) brain while he was touching her temples. And that she had to make his English more fluent. Or was that the other story when she was with him in Tibet? I get the stories confused. But she says clearly that the words of The Voice, anyway, are NOT her own. But it is not proof positive that she did not plaigerize it. I also read recently that the man who was going to do a big expose on her, lived in San Francisco I think, was all set to show and prove wher the SD came from and before he could do it he was killed in the San Francisco earthquake and all his stuff was lost and the book was never written. That's divine justice for ya.... Netemara *************** --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Well I do have to ad something to the previous posting Reg. "any > Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns > who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own > account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang Chronicles of > the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- > scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics of > Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the > consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European > readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky." > > Brian: I read another version of this in the late 1970's. This was in Karl > H. Frick's "Licht und Finsterniss " ( his next book "Die Erleuchtette" > continues his overview of Masonic and occult movements that time). > > He also mentions this " tale of the mad monk" > Hsuan Tsang yet mentioned a translation of this as "the Stanzas" in > Italian that appeared ten years before "The Secret Doctrine." > > Although there is no further evidence that Blavatsky in fact used that > book as an idea, biographical fact is, she did know Italian. > reg. "Stanzas," Blavatsky indeed uses this definite Italian word, rather > then the English "verses". > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/ > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title for > > her "Book of Dzyan". (of course the race theories are part of her own > > mix that she added to these others) > > > > Richard Bernstein, a New York Times book critic, has written a book > > titled Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient Buddhist > Monk > > Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment (2001), describing his > > own journey in the footsteps of Hsuan Tsang (AD 603 - 664). He > notes > > that "any Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns > > who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own > > account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang Chronicles of > > the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- > > scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics > of > > Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the > > consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European > > readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky. > > > > The name of Hsuan Tsang is also written Xuan Zang, Hiouen Thsang, > > Huan Chwang, and Yuan Chwang. His name in Mandarin Chinese is > > pronounced "Shyu-ann Dzang". As you can see, "Dzang" is awfully > close > > to "Dzyan". It seems possible to me that HPB may have cribbed the > > name of this monk to gain some authenticity with individuals who > were > > vaguely familiar with Beal's translation of his writings. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > > > No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and ask > > > > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in fact > take > > > care of > > > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can > > > continue to be > > > > who he is. > > > > > > Hi, Bill: > > > > > > I don't have a clue as to what that statement means. I don't believe > > > anyone "loves" any of us, and if we end up a ward of the state, the > > > government won't take care of us just so we can continue to be > who > > we > > > are. They will keep us in something slightly better than a > > > vegetative state until the Grim Reaper comes and gets us. I have > > > visited those places and could not wait to get out. Fortunately, the > > > medicare system is starting to rate nursing homes, but I don't know > > > how advanced a state that effort is in. It will be interesting to > > > see how much more highly rated are institutions for the ruling elite > > > than for the elderly poor who got ripped off by the investment > > > bankers. > > > > > > Iraq is an Arab country, and Scott Ritter publicly made some rather > > > frank comments about George Bush while he was there. Saddam > did > > not > > > put him in jail to my knowledge. > > > > > > If Oil War II does not end quickly and leaves a lot of teenagers from > > > Iowa dying in convulsions from inhaling Sarin the jingoism in this > > > country will last about as long as a puff of hair spray. Bear in > > > mind the last urban combat our forces engaged in was in > Mogaadishu, > > > and Aidid did not have nerve gases. If Bush starts an avoidable war > > > he is taking one hell of a political chance, and may well end the > > > Bush dynasty. You know of course that they are now saying after > > > eight years of George we will have to put up with eight years of Jeb > > > and then presumably work our way down the list until we get to > > > Silverado Neil. If he trips in the sand that may not happen. Groegr > > > says he does not care about the folks who will be grabbing those oil > > > wells for him. No Yalies there, after all. But if he thinks nobody > > > else cares he may be in for a very big surprise. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 06:58:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 14:58:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 68394 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 14:58:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 14:58:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 14:58:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 14:58:08 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:58:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Daniel C. Caldwell 's Atlantis: die Urheimat der Arier. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 15530 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Daniel C. Caldwell didn't answer about Aryans and Elder Brothers in the=20 Mahatma Letters ?? A next topic could be reg. "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is = =3D=0D the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The=20 majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root=20 race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and=20 branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.)=20 and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub- race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of=20 humanity," reminds me so much of the way that H.P. Lovecraft wrote=20 about miscegenation and inferior races of beings. Also David Icke, a former spokesman for the Green Party in Great=20 Britain, identifies a global elite of that includes George W. Bush and=20 Prince Charles are the spawn of mammalian/reptilian interbreeding.=20 who participate in human sacrifice and drink blood! Icke is into all of th= =3D=0D e=20 stuff we've been discussing, including Theosophy. Not only is Icke into = =3D=0D =20 Theosophy, he's written several books that treat the notorious anti- Semitic Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a legitimate document. The modern myth of Atlantis is due largely to the work of two=20 individuals: Ignatius Donnelly, the author of Atlantis: The Antediluvian=20 World (1882), and The Mahatma Letters, Blavatsky. Donnelly's work had=20 a direct influence on both Helena Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, who found it=20 appealing because both Theosophy and Anthroposophy sought a=20 reconciliation of science with religion, and Edgar Cayce who made=20 Cuba "rise."=20 Donnelly was presenting what, for 1882, were reported as the latest=20 scientific findings, thus giving special weight to his interpretations.=20 However, he was not a scientist or a scholar of ancient civilizations and=20 his interpretations of the data were out-of-date even in his own time. As=20 L. Sprague de Camp wrote in his excellent book Lost Continents: The=20 Atlantis Theme in History, Science, and Literature (1954), Donnelly "was=20 a man 'with an extremely active mind, but posessing also that haste to=20 form judgements and that lack of critical sense in testing them, which=20 are often the result of self-education conducted by immense and=20 unsystematic reading'". Donnelly gave inordinate credence to the=20 archaeology of Augustus Le Plongeon, whose research at Chichén Itz&a= =3D=0D acute;=20 and Uxmal in the 1870s and 1880s was directed at proving that the=20 ancient Maya were the oldest civilization on the planet (and the source=20 of all knowledge, including that of ancient Egypt). He may also have=20 been influenced by the illustrations of Jean-Frederic Waldeck, whose=20 engravings of the Maya ruins of Palenque and other sites, while truly=20 wonderful as visual images, falsely represented Maya structures and=20 monuments as having Greco-Roman and Egyptian characteristics.=20 Waldeck's images, which I like to consider as the first real pictures=20 of "Atlantis" due to their fantastic nature, were used to illustrate=20 Brasseur de Bourbourg's Monuments Anciens du Méxique(1866)--a=20 source by an author who up until then had produced valuable=20 scholarship on ancient Mesoamerica (including the discovery of the=20 Ximénez translation of the Quiché Popol Vuh). Unfortunately, = =3D=0D Waldeck's=20 images fostered an entirely warped view of the Maya among a=20 readership who should have given more credence to the work of John=20 Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood in the 1830s and 1840s. FDR and Wallace were both pleased with Masonic imagery of the=20 unfinished pyramid, the Eye of Providence, and especially the way the=20 Latin motto (from Virgil) of "Novus Ordo Seclorum" could be linked to=20 the New Deal (that's what "Novus Ordo" means!) They also liked its=20 Utopian symbolism (St. Thomas More, the author of Utopia was=20 canonized in 1935). Roerich had gotten to know Wallace through their=20 common interests in Central Asia, Theosophy, and Buddhism, and=20 through Roerich's work on an international agreement signed by the=20 U.S. and 21 other nations for the protection of cultural sites and=20 museums in times of warfare (which in turn provided the inspiration for=20 UNESCO). Wallace was thoroughly entranced by Roerich, helping with=20 his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. The Department of Agriculture=20 later funded an abortive expedition by Roerich to Mongolia, ostensibly=20 for the purpose of collecting drought-resistant grasses. It ended in a=20 messy diplomatic snafu. Roerich headed off to India in order to avoid=20 IRS claims of tax evasion and Wallace broke off all communication with=20 him. However, Wallace's 1948 bid as Progressive Party candidate for the=20 presidency (against Truman and Dewey) was later damaged when some=20 of his personal correspondence with Roerich--known as the "guru=20 letters"--was made public. There are some who believe that Truman=20 would have lost his knife-edge victory over Dewey (remember the=20 famous photograph?) had Wallace's reputation not been smeared. By=20 the way, Roerich's archaeological explorations included a 5-year=20 expedition to Tibet in the 1920s in search of the lost city of Shambala.=20 I'm convinced that it provided some of the inspiration for James Hilton's=20 bestselling 1933 novel Lost Horizon, made into a hit movie of the same=20 name by Frank Capra. The book and movie tell of the story of the=20 discovery of the dreamlike utopia of Shangri-La. Interestingly,=20 construction on FDR's secret mountain retreat in Maryland--where much=20 of the strategic planning for U.S. involvement in World War II took place- -began in 1935. Roosevelt named the retreat Shangri-La. It was later=20 renamed by President Eisenhower for his grandson. The current name?=20 Camp David. The modern myth of Atlantis is due largely to the work of two=20 individuals: Ignatius Donnelly, the author of Atlantis: The Antediluvian=20 World (1882), and Edgar Cayce, the famous psychic. Donnelly's work=20 had a direct influence on both Helena Blavatsky and Rudolf Steiner, who=20 found it appealing because both Theosophy and Anthroposophy sought a=20 reconciliation of science with religion. Donnelly was presenting what, for = =3D=0D 1882, were reported as the latest scientific findings, thus giving special = =3D=0D weight to his interpretations. However, he was not a scientist or a=20 scholar of ancient civilizations and his interpretations of the data were=20 out-of-date even in his own time. As L. Sprague de Camp wrote in his=20 excellent book Lost Continents: The Atlantis Theme in History, Science,=20 and Literature (1954), Donnelly "was a man 'with an extremely active=20 mind, but posessing also that haste to form judgements and that lack of=20 critical sense in testing them, which are often the result of self- education conducted by immense and unsystematic reading'". Donnelly=20 gave inordinate credence to the archaeology of Augustus Le Plongeon,=20 whose research at Chichén Itzá and Uxmal in the 1870s and 188= =3D=0D 0s was=20 directed at proving that the ancient Maya were the oldest civilization on=20 the planet (and the source of all knowledge, including that of ancient=20 Egypt). He may also have been influenced by the illustrations of Jean- Frederic Waldeck, whose engravings of the Maya ruins of Palenque and=20 other sites, while truly wonderful as visual images, falsely represented=20 Maya structures and monuments as having Greco-Roman and Egyptian=20 characteristics. Waldeck's images, which I like to consider as the first=20 real pictures of "Atlantis" due to their fantastic nature, were used to=20 illustrate Brasseur de Bourbourg's Monuments Anciens du Méxique (1866)--a source by an author who up until then had produced valuable=20 scholarship on ancient Mesoamerica (including the discovery of the=20 Ximénez translation of the Quiché Popol Vuh). Unfortunately, = =3D=0D Waldeck's=20 images fostered an entirely warped view of the Maya among a=20 readership who should have given more credence to the work of John=20 Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood in the 1830s and 1840s. Blavatsky, also, took Donnelly's extreme conclusions to even greater=20 extremes. As for Edgar Cayce's readings on Atlantis, I think they can all=20 be as easily dismissed as Miss Cleo, the Psychic Friends Network, and=20 John Edward--with whom the great Harry Houdini would have had a field=20 day. I strongly urge you to read Rodney Castleden's book Atlantis Destroyed=20 (1998) one of the few good archeological books on the subject.=20 The myth of the "lost civilization" of the Ice Age has become to the New=20 Age Left what the story of a six-day Biblical Creation has become to the=20 Religious Right. I believe that both are equally incompatible with the=20 available evidence, and adherents of the mythical Atlantis story wind up=20 looking as silly as Creationists.=20 In Blavatsky's Book of Dzyan (The Secret Doctrine) Atlantis takes on the=20 most pivotal role, because it is from Atlantis (instead of Africa) that=20 the "5e race" Aryans would have come. =20 According to Blavatsky's SD, Atlantis sunk except for a remnant which=20 escaped to the highest ground, Tibet. From there colonizers set out=20 when the waters receded and conquered the rest of the world, including=20 Europe. All the religions of Europe, etc., are therefore evolutions of a=20 single cult, known as the "primitive wisdom religion."=20 And " the comparatively fair Brahmins have come from the North - when=20 invading India with its dark-colored Dravidians -, so the Aryan Fifth Race = =3D=0D must claim its origin from northern regions" (The Secret Doctrine Vol. 2,=20 Page 768)=20 "The Mahatma Letters" claim: "The highest race (physical=20 intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white = =3D=0D conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of=20 the fourth Root race, -- the above=20 mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans,=20 Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other=20 sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All = =3D=0D these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity."=20 (http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mahatmal.html )=20 So doesn't it seem wrote these letters clearly identified=20 himself/herself/"The White Brotherhood", with white "Aryan" not even=20 Indian. (Mahatma Letters to Sinnet in INDIA): "yourselves the white=20 conquerors" ? One of the sources of these ideas of lost continents of course should=20=20 also be seen in the myth of the Golden Age as part of the=20 Renaisance "Great Chain" philosophy that in turn borrowed this=20 particular idea from the Greco-Roman tradition. It stated that people live = =3D=0D in the iron age of hard work and hunger, while the "golden race" of the=20 past neither suffered nor aged, and lived in an abundant natural world in=20 which labor was unknown and peace and justice reigned.=20 The Jewish and Christian traditions in the Renaissance offered believers=20 visions of a world wiped clean of evil. In addition to a Paradise situated = =3D=0D in the past, at the beginning of time, these traditions present glimpses of= =3D=0D =20 a radiant future. The theorie of "cycles" that derive from this as exposed = =3D=0D in the "The Mahatma Letters" is not an oriental idea as much as it is=20 inspired by Renaisance neo-Platonism the believe in an "Apocalypses"=20 and so on. In the seventeenth century, a new form of Plato's utopian narrative=20 appeared in which travel through time resulted in the discovery of an=20 ideal society that did not exist in the present, and at one point the=20 Americas were believed to be the earthly location of this. During Blavatsky's time the age of Darwinism, and believe now that=20=20 the "Great Chain" "perenial philosophy" instead now should be "eons"=20 old, there was suddenly the need for a hidden continent (or seven)=20 where this supposedly all came from instead of the already well charted=20 out of Africa theory.=20 Himmler and other leading Nazis not surprisingly also believed in the=20 Theosophial Atlantis theory and that Tibet was the last refuge of "the=20 Aryan root race" with a priestly caste that ruled an underground realm.=20 Even in the records of the War crimes tribunal the word "Shambala"=20 was several times mentioned.=20 By the time Hitler wrote "Mein Kampf" the myth of the Aryan race was=20 fully developed.=20 And a solution for the mingling of "Aryan and Jewish" blood was for the=20 tainted Germans to find the wellsprings of Aryan blood. In search=20 for "contact with the Aryans," Tibet-long isolated, seemed indeed a likely = =3D=0D candidate.=20 At Himmler's orders therefore , the Ahnenerbe was founded in 1935,=20 with all the outward trappings of a scholarly institute, to buttress Hitler= =3D=0D 's=20 racial ideologies. The Ahnenerbe ended up sponsoring three expeditions=20 to Tibet.=20 The SS-Ahnenerbe was involved in the mapping of different racial=20 groups. Its members believed that they could classify races into two=20 types: those with Aryan heritage. The latter were to be eliminated.=20 These ideas were the impetus behind both the Holocaust and the=20 Schaefer mission to Lhasa in 1938-39.=20 The leaders of most well known of these missions where Dr. Ernst=20 Schaefer, and Dr. Bruno Beger. Even before Schaefer=B4s mission was=20 announced, Beger had proposed an expedition to map the=20 characteristics of the peoples of eastern Tibet to ascertain whether they=20 were originally Aryans.=20 To his postwar American interrogators, Schaefer volunteered that=20 Himmler "had very strange views." He thought that "the Nordic race had=20 come directly from heaven." And of his colleagues in the Ahnenerbe,=20 Schaefer mentioned: "They all believed in the glacial theory of=20 cosmogony. Naturally, this was all completely unscientific. But the=20 gentlemen had not read any other books, it was such a mad business".=20 (Schaffer's interrogation report , RG 338 OI-FIR No.32, dated Febr. 12,=20 1946. See also Thierry Dodin and Heinz Raether "Tibetforschung im SS- Ahnenerbe," 1997.)=20 Some Nazi militarists imagined Tibet as a potential base for attacking=20 British India, and hoped that this mission would lead to some form of=20 alliance with the Tibetans. In that they were partly successful.=20 The mission was received by the Teting Regent (who had led Tibet since=20 the death of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama in 1933), and it did succeed in=20 persuading the Regent to correspond with Adolf Hitler.=20 It is interesting that current mainland Chinese scientists are now=20 following a similar line of thought.=20 But mixing archeology/paleontology with Nationalism is notting new. For=20 example=20 Chinese PRC sources today argue that genetic similarities between Han=20 and Tibetans and differences between Tibetans and Nepalis and Indians=20 underscore the "blood relationship" among China's ethnic groups.=20 The Dalai Lama counters that by stating that "archeological findings have=20 revealed that the Tibetans and Chinese have been two distinct people=20 since the dawn of human civilization." (Dalai Lama, "The Importance of=20 Indian Initiative on Tibet." Tibetan Bulletin, July-August: 1, 1993.)=20 1) http://www.discover.com/aug_02/featafrica.html 2) http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/humorigins.html = =3D=0D = =20 Brian = =3D=0D = =20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9= =3D=0D =20=20 = =20 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 07:06:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 15:06:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 20713 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 15:06:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 15:06:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 15:06:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 15:06:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:06:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8398 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Netemara: also read recently that the man who was going to do a big expose on her, lived in San Francisco I think, was all set to show and prove wher the SD came from and before he could do it he was killed in the San Francisco earthquake and all his stuff was lost and the book was never written. Brian: Your making this up, or what was his name, and he certainly will have postet some of his ideas on e-mails here and there ? http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > Brian: It goes back to the definition of 'master' one who recognizes > Truth. And Blavatsky is a master at recognizing the truth in whatever > form it appears. That she may have 'borrowed' or used this book is of > no moment to me, because in my mind she may have been that man in > that Chinese incarnation and written it her darn self in that life. > This book may have never come to light and been the influence it had > been had she not recognized it. > > And I know she spoke/knew Italian because she and her family had > reincarnated many times into the Italian ethnic/mediterrean group. > Besides Italian is easy to read, and THE easiest Romantic language to > learn--it's a no brainer compared to French. > > Now is this author saying she copied it verbatim? The Voice is based > on the Stanzas of Dyzan right? And people have said it here and there > that there is no such thing as Senzar language as she called it? Is > that right? Well, she gets credit for no other reason than > translating the thing into English. And if my memory serves me > correctly that she said that she pulled this out of her master's (MM) > brain while he was touching her temples. And that she had to make his > English more fluent. Or was that the other story when she was with > him in Tibet? I get the stories confused. But she says clearly that > the words of The Voice, anyway, are NOT her own. But it is not proof > positive that she did not plaigerize it. > > I also read recently that the man who was going to do a big expose on > her, lived in San Francisco I think, was all set to show and prove > wher the SD came from and before he could do it he was killed in the > San Francisco earthquake and all his stuff was lost and the book was > never written. That's divine justice for ya.... > > Netemara > > *************** > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Well I do have to ad something to the previous posting Reg. "any > > Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns > > who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own > > account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang > Chronicles of > > the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- > > scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great classics > of > > Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the > > consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European > > readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky." > > > > Brian: I read another version of this in the late 1970's. This was > in Karl > > H. Frick's "Licht und Finsterniss " ( his next book "Die > Erleuchtette" > > continues his overview of Masonic and occult movements that time). > > > > He also mentions this " tale of the mad monk" > > Hsuan Tsang yet mentioned a translation of this as "the Stanzas" > in > > Italian that appeared ten years before "The Secret Doctrine." > > > > Although there is no further evidence that Blavatsky in fact used > that > > book as an idea, biographical fact is, she did know Italian. > > reg. "Stanzas," Blavatsky indeed uses this definite Italian word, > rather > > then the English "verses". > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/ > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > wrote: > > > Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title > for > > > her "Book of Dzyan". (of course the race theories are part of her > own > > > mix that she added to these others) > > > > > > Richard Bernstein, a New York Times book critic, has written a > book > > > titled Ultimate Journey: Retracing the Path of an Ancient > Buddhist > > Monk > > > Who Crossed Asia in Search of Enlightenment (2001), describing > his > > > own journey in the footsteps of Hsuan Tsang (AD 603 - 664). He > > notes > > > that "any Chinese person who has been to elementary school knowns > > > who Hsuan Tsang was and what he did" and writes, "The monk's own > > > account of his journey, whose full title is The Great Tang > Chronicles of > > > the Western World, translated into English by a British clergyman- > > > scholar named Samuel Beal, is regarded as one of the great > classics > > of > > > Chinese literature." Beal's work would have been marginal to the > > > consciousness of most late 19th-century American and European > > > readers, but not to Orientalists or people like Blavatsky. > > > > > > The name of Hsuan Tsang is also written Xuan Zang, Hiouen Thsang, > > > Huan Chwang, and Yuan Chwang. His name in Mandarin Chinese is > > > pronounced "Shyu-ann Dzang". As you can see, "Dzang" is awfully > > close > > > to "Dzyan". It seems possible to me that HPB may have cribbed > the > > > name of this monk to gain some authenticity with individuals who > > were > > > vaguely familiar with Beal's translation of his writings. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > > > > No you don't need an airline ticket, just listen to Steve and > ask > > > > > yourself what kind of government could love Steve, and in > fact > > take > > > > care of > > > > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can > > > > continue to be > > > > > who he is. > > > > > > > > Hi, Bill: > > > > > > > > I don't have a clue as to what that statement means. I don't > believe > > > > anyone "loves" any of us, and if we end up a ward of the state, > the > > > > government won't take care of us just so we can continue to be > > who > > > we > > > > are. They will keep us in something slightly better than a > > > > vegetative state until the Grim Reaper comes and gets us. I > have > > > > visited those places and could not wait to get out. > Fortunately, the > > > > medicare system is starting to rate nursing homes, but I don't > know > > > > how advanced a state that effort is in. It will be interesting > to > > > > see how much more highly rated are institutions for the ruling > elite > > > > than for the elderly poor who got ripped off by the investment > > > > bankers. > > > > > > > > Iraq is an Arab country, and Scott Ritter publicly made some > rather > > > > frank comments about George Bush while he was there. Saddam > > did > > > not > > > > put him in jail to my knowledge. > > > > > > > > If Oil War II does not end quickly and leaves a lot of > teenagers from > > > > Iowa dying in convulsions from inhaling Sarin the jingoism in > this > > > > country will last about as long as a puff of hair spray. Bear > in > > > > mind the last urban combat our forces engaged in was in > > Mogaadishu, > > > > and Aidid did not have nerve gases. If Bush starts an > avoidable war > > > > he is taking one hell of a political chance, and may well end > the > > > > Bush dynasty. You know of course that they are now saying > after > > > > eight years of George we will have to put up with eight years > of Jeb > > > > and then presumably work our way down the list until we get to > > > > Silverado Neil. If he trips in the sand that may not happen. > Groegr > > > > says he does not care about the folks who will be grabbing > those oil > > > > wells for him. No Yalies there, after all. But if he thinks > nobody > > > > else cares he may be in for a very big surprise. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 07:38:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 15:38:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 10102 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 15:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 15:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 15:38:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 15:38:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:38:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 290 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title for > her "Book of Dzyan". I read somewhere that some Theosopgusts thought Zen and dhyana meant the same thing. Put them together and you get Dzyan. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 07:52:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 15:52:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 92818 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 15:52:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 15:52:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 15:52:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 15:52:20 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:52:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 566 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach STEVE: Put them together and you get Dzyan. Brian: I thought you would catch on, so what about Blavatsky's senzar ? Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: By the way, I think I know where Blavatsky got the title for > > her "Book of Dzyan". > > I read somewhere that some Theosopgusts thought Zen and dhyana meant > the same thing. Put them together and you get Dzyan. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 16 07:54:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 15:54:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 42809 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 15:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 15:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 15:54:27 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2797C5EE75A for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:54:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000b01c28d87$b512ba40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD528C8.14307.2009F65@localhost> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:49:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Adelasie and all of you, Thanks Adelasie ! Let us make a non-voilence movement - driven by the words of RELIGION ! I can see that NO --- non-voilence movement are as well known as for instance the Amnesty International is today. I think that IF Martin Luther King Jr. have lived today - I think he would have a BIG - determent Non-Violence Movement - going ! (i.e. on total Nuclear Disarmament etc. !) Just try reading his text again - and then I think the message is clear. It is today not a anymore a question about War or Peace, - but it is a question about EXISTENCE or Non-EXISTENCE !!! That is where we are today - november 2002 ! Please rethink this in these terroist times, wheather one defines a terrorist as a small group or a whole country or just its leaders and 'puppets' !!! And one can't help wondering why the FBI did play such a sad role when mr. King died, and even today where there stille are court-disputes on his dead and the FBIs role in the matter. (Here is a part of the truth of the matter: http://www.courttv.com/trials/mlk-civil/113099_ctv.html and http://www.courttv.com/trials/mlk-civil/120899_verdict_ctv.html) Not many people have "NAMED day" like Martin Luther King Jr. have today in USA !!! King's historical importance was memorialized at the Martin Luther King Jr. Center for Social Justice, a research institute in Atlanta. Also in Atlanta is the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site, which includes his birthplace, the Ebenezer Church, and the King Center, where his tomb is located. Perhaps the most important memorial is the national holiday in King's honor, designated by the U.S. Congress in 1983 and observed on the third Monday in January, a day that falls on or near King's birthday of January 15. from M. Sufilight with peace and non-violence... ----- Original Message ----- From: "adelasie" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Dear Morten, > > Thank you for these inspiring words from Dr. King. One hears the > echos of the highest truth in them. Perhaps each of us could take a > moment to reflect how powerful the wish for peace can be if we > reflect it out in our daily lives. Instead of fighting and arguing, > we could change our little part of the universe completely if we took > Dr. King's example, along with that of many other champions of peace > throughout history, to heart, and lived our lives dedicated to non- > violence, harmlessness, kindness to others, altruism, and brotherly > love. > > Adelasie > > On 16 Nov 2002 at 0:51, Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > HI Bill and all of you, > > > > Well thanks for that remark of yours. > > > > Maybe the following could be of some help. > > > > I will give the word to Martin Luther King Jr., who in his famous > > "I've been to the mountain top" speech makes a very good ponit on the > > present day situation : > > > > "And another reason that I'm happy to live in this period is that we > > have been forced to a point where we are going to have to grapple with > > the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through > > history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands > > that we grapple with them. Men for years now have been talking about > > war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is > > no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; > > it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today. " > > (http://www.africanamericans.com/MLKjrI'veBeentotheMountaintop.htm; > > from - april 3rd 1968; the day before King died) > > > > One could read the whole speech, and learn something by it. > > Or one could download some of the speech here: > > http://www.mlkonline.com/ > > > > So let the nations of the world seek peace and calm... It is needed. > > Are there any peace in the jails ? How are the children being helped, > > so that they won't go to jail ? How are the arab countries going to > > avoid - "pusher street" ? > > > > I give the word to the... mr. King: > > > > "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on > > military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching > > spiritual death." "America, the richest and most powerful nation in > > the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There > > is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering > > our priorities so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over > > the pursuit of war. There is nothing to keep us from molding a > > recalcitrant status quo with bruised hands until we have fashioned it > > into a brotherhood." > > > > Excerpted from "Beyond Vietnam", an address delivered on 4 April 1967 > > to the Clergy and Laymen Concerned About Vietnam at Riverside Church > > in New York City. (full text) > > > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with peace... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Meredith" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:52 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > Morten, I'm sure you appreciate the fact that both Bart's and > > > Steve's > > point > > > of view originates in the same USA. Try being in a middle eastern > > > country and talking publicly about the leader of that country the > > > way Steve talks about the President of this country and see how good > > > the jails are there. Well yes I have spent some time in several Arab > > > countries as well as in Israel. No you don't need an airline > > > ticket, just listen to Steve and ask yourself what kind of > > > government could love Steve, and in fact take care > > of > > > him if he is unable to take care of himself, just so he can continue > > > to be who he is. > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:34 AM > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > > > > HI Steve and all of you, > > > > > > > > Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > > > > Maybe more than you would know. > > > > > > > > from > > > > M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Steve Stubbs" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No > > > > > Bart. > > > > > > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one > > > > > > single - > > > > > extremly > > > > > > nationalistic - country which > > > > > > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while > > > > > > they > > > > > do the > > > > > > opposite ! > > > > > > > > > > Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > > > > > mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > > > > > correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush > > > > > says he wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he > > > > > is saying he wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. > > > > > Just inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public > > > > > speaking course. Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > > > > > > > > > > > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > > > > > > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war > > > > > on drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes > > > > > sense on the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps > > > > > for out of work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if > > > > > the laws were reformed, all those people would be put on the > > > > > unemployment line. It is a classic problem which has faced all > > > > > societies, in which a vested interest is created snd people > > > > > fight like hell to keep it. > > > > > > > > > > Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the > > > > > political spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts > > > > > of the left. > > > > > > > > > > > And what about the arab countries or India ? > > > > > > > > > > They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt > > > > > about it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really > > > > > miss that. Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > > > > > > > > > > > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the > > > > > > jails of > > > > > USA are > > > > > > allowed "FREE MIXING". > > > > > > > > > > Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > > > > > Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of > > > > > Palestinians. > > > > > > > > > > > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular > > > > > > country ? > > > > > > > > > > I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > > > > > > > > > > > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > > > > > important. > > > > > > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > > > > > > > > > > Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help > > > > > going to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that > > > > > he has a rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is > > > > > inevitable. The best we can hope for is that it is short and > > > > > that he does not get beaten too badly. > > > > > > > > > > You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > > > > > accurate view of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 16 09:53:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 17:53:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 2713 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 17:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 17:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 17:53:22 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E3EB4807F6 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:53:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000f01c28d98$51664f00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Rumi, Rumours and Scandals? Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:48:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, I have som points to the below, which could be of some help: 1. Attraction of Celebrities A man who is being delivered frim the danger of a fierce lion deos not object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from celebrities ? 2. I think it was the sufi El-Ghazali (d.1111) who said something like the following: The disticntion between opinion and knowledge is something, which can easily be lost. When this happens, it is incumbent upon those who know the difference to make it plain as far as they are able. This habit of confusing opinion with knowledge is almost a epidemic disease these days. Well, that was years ago, but this issue seems to be a disease even today. 3. It is allright that some people have authorities. But they have to be constructive. If the authority is destructive, then I won't be good and have to be stopped. I could ask if any has an opinion on wheather any authorities today are good or bad, and I would probably get a lot of hands. But if I ask about if any have the needed spiritual knowledge to judged wheather it is true, - I bet near all the hands will fall down - if the truth was to be presented. 4. Rumi (d.1273) like other Sufi-authors plants his teachings within a framework or something sort of similar which as effectively screens its inner meaning as displays it. This thechnique fullfills the functions of preventing those who want poetry to select poetry; giving entertainment to people who want stories; stimulationg the intellect in those who prize such experiences. Rumi: In it, what is in it ? You get out of it, what is in it for you. 5. TRUE REALITY Of this there is no academic proof in the world; For its hidden, and hidden, and hidden. (by Rumi - translated to english) 6. THE INTELLIGENCE and REAL PERCEPTION The intelligence is the shadow of objective Truth, How can the shadow vie with sunshine? (by Rumi - translated to english) from M. Sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: "netemara888" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:39 PM Subject: Theos-World Fwd: Rumi, Rumours and Scandals? > --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" > wrote: > This is a repost because I want to make a point about worshipping > anyone in the flesh. We are not to worship anyone, but we love > everyone. Rumi was a saint no doubt in my estimation. But was he a > Master who came here to return souls? Probably not. Did he have > karmic ties to others in his life? Certainly he did if this > scholastic account I found is true. Did Jesus have karmic ties with > those he found in his life as Jesus certainly he did. Did the RS > Masters I followed for 22 years have karma, yes they most certainly > did. > > If you read long enough on the web you will probably find a group or > authors, in progress, who expose these groups as rabid cults. The > definition of a cult is such that a charismatic leader is followed > and worshipped or loved by his followers in a 'love is blind' sort of > way. But what is also implied is that the leader is giving something > of himself to those people and that group. But what the detractors > focus on is what is THE leader getting in return from his group. Is > he or she taking credit for what God has already planted in each and > every one of us? > > Namaste > > Net > > ****************** > > > > --- In radhasoamistudies@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > > The following quotes are from "Biographical Encyclopedia of Sufis" > by > > N. Hanif (printed in India)--first edition 2002 > > > > "Now Rumi left off teaching and preaching and spent days and nights > in > > the company of Shams. It was rumoured that a magician had > bewitched > > the great divine. Rumi's sons and disciples turned against Shams > > whom they considered to be a chalatan and sorcerer....Something > > happened which turned Rumi's son Ala al-Din (Rumi was Iranian by > the > > way) against Shams and others joined him with the result that Shams > > disappeared for good....other biographies are full of the accord > that > > Shams was assassinated by Rumi's disciples and the author > of "Nafahat > > al-Uns" mentions the name of Rumi's son as his murderer...the > > disappearance of Shams took place in about 645/1247." > > > > "Rumi had no intention of either founding a new sect or initiating > a > > new movement; his devotees and disciples, however, did form a > > distinctive group after his death, but they developed and > perpetuated > > only some external observances and rituals and degenerated into a > > community of whirling dervishes. A felt-cap without a seam--the > > leaders also wrapping a turban around it and wearing voluminous > > trousers of many folds." > > > > Naturally Rumi, as any true Saint was against such imitation > and "With Rumi ecstatic dance accompanied by spontaneously gushing > forth lyrics was an involuntary expression of a deeply stirred soul." > > > > page 386-387. > > > > ******** > > > > I was walking out of the library here at Notre Dame and I happened > to spot this book with another on the shelf as new arrivals in the > > Reference Department. And I wanted to answer my own question about > > the whirling dervishes. But found a bit of scandal to go with it. > It seems then that Shams was Rumi's guru and Rumi became an almost > > instant overnight success with his ecstatic poems? > > > > Just goes to show that even the Saints (makes you wonder about the > NO KARMA THING ABOUT Saints--does it not?) are not above having > karmic scandals mushroom around them. For me this puts to rest the > bit about Sants having no karma, it just is not true. And where does > karma flow? It flows from having past lives. With this new > biographical book (2) on Sufis, heck I could trace back all the past > lives of the "Sants" we have here been discussing...I'm taking > bets....Will find > > Rebazar too.....just kidding..... > > > > ************ > > > > Historical question: > > > > Does anybody know the history of the turban as it relates to India > > itself? I know that the Arabs and those in desert countries always > > covered heads and bodies because of the intense sun and heat but > where > > did the turban come from and did it become at some point a symbol > or > > essence of the "guru?" Was it all born out of the Middle East and > > modified from country to country in terms of style and importance? > > > > Net > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 10:21:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 18:21:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 12737 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 18:21:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 18:21:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 18:21:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 18:21:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:21:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian's Argument concerning HPB's comments on "Aryans" in ISIS UNVEILED Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3243 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: Brian's Argument concerning HPB's comments on "Aryans" in ISIS UNVEILED Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote on Brian's website: "H.P. Blavatsky ALWAYS assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? . . . The whole root races idea is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit literatures means 'white race.'" CAPS ADDED Quoted from: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html Notice Goswami wrote that Blavatsky ALWAYS assumed Arya meant white as in "white" race. To show readers that Goswami's statement was misleading (to say the least), I quoted statements in ISIS UNVEILED which clearly showed that in her 1877 work Blavatsky did NOT assume Arya(n) meant "white." Please see the relevant quotes from ISIS in my posting titled: "HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word 'Aryan' and the 'Aryans'" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8742 To my posting, Brian countered: "It is . . . known that the majority in the text of Isis didn't come from Blavatsky's pen at all but was copied verbatim from printed books , of the 100 ore so Blavatsky had in her appartment that time." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8755 If I correctly understand Brian's comment, he is saying that the extracts from HPB's ISIS UNVEILED about "Aryan" could be possibly copied verbatim from works by other authors and therefore do NOT represent HPB's own views. But if this is Brian's reasoning, then why not apply that SAME argument to what HPB wrote about "Aryan" in THE SECRET DOCTRINE? Notice what William Emmette Coleman wrote in one of his critiques of HPB: "Plagiarism is a marked characteristic of the writings alike of Mme. Blavatsky and of the mahatmas. In Isis Unveiled I have traced some 2,000 passages copied from other books without credit. Her Secret Doctrine is permeated with SIMILAR plagiarisms." CAPS ADDED. Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/cole1893.htm And in another article, Coleman wrote: "In Isis Unveiled, published in 1877, I discovered some 2000 passages copied from other books without proper credit. . . . " But pay close attention to what Coleman wrote later in the same article: "The Secret Doctrine, published in 1888, is of a piece with Isis. It is permeated with plagiarisms, and is in all its parts a rehash of other books. . . . " Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/colemansources1895.htm So if Brian's argument is valid for the ISIS UNVEILED statements, then could we not ALSO assume that what is "written" in THE SECRET DOCTRINE about Aryan "didn't come from Blavatsky's pen at all but was copied verbatim from printed books" of other authors? I would like to see serious input from Brian and others on the above point. But Brian's statement given above appears to contain a basic misunderstanding about what Coleman actually claimed when he spoke of HPB's "plagiarisms." I will write about that in a future email if I see that Brian is trying to have a "serious" and "scholarly" discussion of the issues. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 16 11:12:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:12:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 77675 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:12:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:12:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:12:36 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.fc.20e93957 (4328) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:12:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:12:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/14/02 9:48:35 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. > >Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list although (in >spite >of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to him, >Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to Leon > >Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > >Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. > >As for "credentials", I know they say yours are close to zero. > > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made an >intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up >, >see below. (Snip blurb) > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real >person. > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >> >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in >> >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this > >> obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the >identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be >capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. Meaning one > >must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a >cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since >B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of >his letters On-line: >> > >> > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html >> > >> > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 16 11:13:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:13:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 3717 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:13:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 20314 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:14:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (66.27.176.113) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:14:14 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.27.176.113 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 14:14:14(EST) on November 16, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.27.176.113 To: Subject: approaches to the subject of Theosophy Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:13:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c28da4$3e845c90$7700a8c0@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker One knowledgeable Theosophist who is also a scholar of Buddhism, knowing and studying texts in their original Tibetan and Sanskrit, is Richard Taylor. He mentioned the origin of the Stanzas of Dzyan in his recent talk appearing in THEOSOPHY WORLD. I would personally give more weight to something he said. Richard said, >There is more than one kind of Tantra. What does Blavatsky say >about the light side? Some of you may have Volume III of THE >SECRET DOCTRINE. It may not have been intended for publication. >I do not know if it is really part of the book. That is beside >the point. It is a fact that Blavatsky wrote the essays in that >volume that Annie Besant and friends published. The volume >consists of a largely-unedited bunch of essays. Even so, >Blavatsky wrote them. On page 405, she says: > >> The Book of Dzyan -- from the Sanskrit word "Dhyan" (mystic >> meditation) -- is the first volume of the Commentaries upon the >> seven secret folios of Kiu-te, and a Glossary of public works of >> the same name. Thirty-five volumes of Kiu-te for exoteric >> purposes and the use of the layman [not the celibate monks], may >> be found in the possession of the Tibetan Gelugpa [Yellow Hat] >> Lamas, in the library of any [Gelugpa] monastery; and also the >> fourteen books of Commentaries and Annotations on the same by >> initiated Teachers. >> >> Strictly speaking, those 35 books [of Kiu-te] ought to be termed >> "The Popularized Version" of the Secret Doctrine [that is a >> unique thing to say, the popular "Secret Doctrine!"], full of >> myths, blinds, and errors; the fourteen volumes of Commentaries, >> on the other hand -- with their translations, annotations, and >> ample glossary of Occult terms, worked out from one small archaic >> folio [darn, I wish we had this!] THE BOOK OF THE SECRET WISDOM >> OF THE WORLD -- contain a digest of all the Occult Sciences. The comments in square brackets are Richard's. There may be other theosophical theories about the origins of the Stanzas. It would be interesting to review what they are and how we would explain them philosophically. There are many approaches to this subject and to a study of any aspect of Theosophy. One approach is to understand the philosophy as it stands, to clearly picture in our minds what it says so that we can consider and optionally incorporate the idea into our thinking. The second approach is evolutionary. We have a responsibility to carry forward the philosophy, making it real, alive, and growing into the future. Although timeless truths, like the basic principles of mathematics, remain ever unchanging, there is much that can be adapted to the needs of changing times. This is sometimes attacked as "reinventing Theosophy," but it's something true of any living school of thought that wants to remain of value in the world. The third approach is destructive. Enemies of the philosophy look for miscellaneous bits of information and quotes easy to misrepresent. They do not want people to know what Theosophy actually says but rather want to depict it as something awful so that they can turn away people that otherwise might find it of interest, come to it, and benefit from it. This is what the Catholic Church did with its Inquisition, and what some religiously-ruled nations try to do even today, controlling or even banning dissenting philosophies and religions. The intent with this approach is destruction of some school of thought that someone is opposed to. Some people find Theosophy threatening since its ultimate goal is to get people to think for themselves. This is threatening to any system of thought that requires blind faith in the dictates of its church hierarchy. It starts people to question church dogma and perhaps be "led astray." The problem arises when people get narrow-minded. They start thinking their approach to God, spirituality, enlightenment, perfection, a better world, etc. is the only one, and that everyone must be converted for their own good. We read that this is the cause of 2/3 of the world's evil (the other 1/3 being from selfishness). I'd tend to agree. There are too many missionaries and jihad warriors with sword, gun, bomb, or pen and pencil that are out to destroy enemies of their "one, true faith." It is ironic that they think they are battling for bringing light into the world, whereas they are actually the cause of the world's evil! I'd say that there's nothing to battle for except a clearer view of the truth, and the battlefield is in our own minds, not in beating up and bruising the minds of others. I think that most of us are quite able to sit together and have a lively exchange without making fists and coming to blows. I hope there's none that are like angry pitbull dogs, seeking to bite our legs with dogged persistence, unable to stop and join into any reasonable interchange. The best way to deal with would be missionaries, for instance, those picturing themselves as "Daniel in the lion's den," is to get to the philosophical basis for their beliefs. Discuss what Theosophy says and unravel their dogma. The biggest threat to them is to question their faith and beliefs, and they cannot help doing so when it comes up for intelligent discussion. We had one on theos-l many years before theos-talk started. Within a month, he quickly tired, when he found he wasn't getting anywhere with us, that we didn't think his ideas were perls of wisdom, but rather saw though them to depths of understanding he hadn't seen before in his church. The only defense that a would-be missionary in his position has is to avoid any discussion of his beliefs and philosophy. If he never says what he thinks and why, it would fall apart before his eyes as people start discussing it in an intelligent fashion outside of the thought control of his church. He would conceal his personal background and beliefs and only seek to find or fabricate excuses for his would-be converts to doubt their beliefs and ripen them for "conversion" to a "belief in the one God." Anyone with a modest practice in theosophical thought would rarely make such a convert. They know too much and can see though the illogic presented as religious dogma by established churches. Furthermore, they would have learned a bit how to read between the lines and get beyond literal interpretations of religious texts, so they see beyond any short-comings of how theosophical books may have been written as well as seeing beyond the short-comings in religious texts like the Bible, Koran, Gita, Book of Mormon, and other man-written books attributed to divine inspiration. Truth is paramount and acquiring skills to approach it is the primary goal, as I see it, of the theosophical movement. There is much metaphysics that may be of other value, but it's only fragmentary outside the Mysteries. As in other things in life, we each take what we find of value from it and share as we can, even when we may face at times people that seem to not understand it and only seem interested in mocking, obscuring, and killing it out. -- Eldon From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 11:22:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:22:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 90688 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:22:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:22:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:22:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 19:22:15 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:22:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1077 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: I thought you would catch on, so what about Blavatsky's senzar ? Blavatsky herself said it came from the name of the Zend Avesta, the Zoroastrian sacred book, thus Zend-Zar. It should be said to make this fair that she was right in saying that the Brahmins of India had a "secret" language which they used for esoteric purposes, which sounds very much like Senzar, which is supposed to be a dialect of Sanskrit. The existence of this language was written about by one of the first Jesuit missionaries who went there to pester people into becoming Catholic, despite the fact they allready had an indigenous spirituality. I found a quote from this guy years ago, but regret that I cannot specify where I found it aafter al this time. I do remember the Jesuit guy said the secret Brahmin language was to them what Latin was to RCs. The description was not complete enough to make it clear whether the language was Sanskrit or something which has been kept private by the Pundits. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 11:33:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:33:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 21701 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:33:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:33:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:33:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 19:33:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:33:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "the elder Brothers" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 653 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you wrote: ". . . who are 'the elder Brothers ' in Theosophical lore, or according to D.C. Caldwell ?" Off the top of my head, this term "elder Brothers" doesn't appear to be used by either Blavatsky or the Mahatmas. Furthermore, I can't find it in an initial search of the original literature. If you have an exact reference from Blavatsky or the Mahatmas that I have overlooked, please let me know and then I will comment on it. I believe the term is used by Judge and also by Besant and Leadbeater. Maybe Gregory Tillett's biography of Leadbeater comments on this term. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 11:43:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:43:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 1572 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:43:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:43:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:43:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 19:43:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:43:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD63C21.E6C4AC0B@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1305 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > I once heard a wonderfully elegant definition of > a field: Something which takes up space, has a measurable and > predictable effect on matter and energy, but of which we otherwise know > nothing. That is very similar to what I was taught in my second semester of electromagnetic fields in college. The professors told us we had to adopt the mind set that we could get useful results working with fields without having the slightest idea what they are and that this is OK. If you have to know what they are you cannot work with them. (The lecture was about waveguides.) The same thing holds for quantum mechanics, which is why I stayed away from both of those. As Heisenberg once said (this is from memory): "You can get interesting results without knowing what you are talking about." I CRINGE when I see some book by a New Age type who doesn't understan the mathematics trying to use quantum mechanics to give a scientific air to some cockamamie idea of his. Probably the worst offender nowadays is Peter Carroll, with his "chaos magic," but itis a popular shtick. Most people do not know what the writer is talking about and therefore do not notice that the writer doesn't know what is is talking about, wither. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 11:51:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 19:51:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 91072 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 19:51:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 19:51:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 19:51:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 19:51:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:51:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 355 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to Leon > >Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." Sounds good to me. A brick wall does not interrupt, does not argue with me, does not dismiss what I have to say, and gives an impression of solidity and stability. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 16 12:00:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 20:00:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 57306 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 20:00:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 20:00:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 20:00:59 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 79D5C5EE4F6 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:00:58 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001101c28daa$25c947a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:55:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Steve and all of you, May I add a short comment. John Algeo from Theosophical Society has made an article on the subject: Try this: http://theosophy.net/tw-html/tw9702.html The Preface in the "Voice of Silence" by H. P. Blavatsky has some interesting remarks on it too. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice.htm My own view: If one learns how to concentrate upon the --- non-physical libraries --- attached to this Planet, then one might get to know something about what Senzar is. The non-physical libraries do really exist. from M. Sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: I thought you would catch on, so what about Blavatsky's > senzar ? > > Blavatsky herself said it came from the name of the Zend Avesta, the > Zoroastrian sacred book, thus Zend-Zar. > > It should be said to make this fair that she was right in saying that > the Brahmins of India had a "secret" language which they used for > esoteric purposes, which sounds very much like Senzar, which is > supposed to be a dialect of Sanskrit. The existence of this language > was written about by one of the first Jesuit missionaries who went > there to pester people into becoming Catholic, despite the fact they > allready had an indigenous spirituality. I found a quote from this > guy years ago, but regret that I cannot specify where I found it > aafter al this time. I do remember the Jesuit guy said the secret > Brahmin language was to them what Latin was to RCs. The description > was not complete enough to make it clear whether the language was > Sanskrit or something which has been kept private by the Pundits. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 12:03:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 20:03:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 51046 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 20:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 20:03:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 20:03:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 20:03:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:03:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Coleman_wrote:__"he_(K.H.)_was_known_in_America_as_=91The_Kashmiri_Brother.'"?= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3714 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian contends that: "'Koot Hoomi' wasn't on the scene yet (invented yet) when Blavatsky wrote Isis." But readers on this forum might be interested in comparing the above contention with what I wrote in my critique titled "K. Paul Johnson's House of Cards?": ------------------------------------------------------ There are a number of primary source documents which show that K.H. was known as "Cashmere" ("Kashmir" or other variant spellings) especially during the years 1875-1878 when H.P.B. and Olcott were living in New York City. In an 1881 letter, Olcott tells Mr. Hume: "I have also personally known ---- since 1875. He is of quite a different, a gentler, type, yet the bosom friend of the other [i.e. Master Morya]." (Quoted from Hints On Esoteric Theosophy, No. 1, 1882, p. 83.) Unfortunately, the name is deleted in the printed version of the letter, but from references in this letter and other documents, it can be reasonably concluded that ---- is Koot Hoomi. Olcott's statement indicates that the Colonel had known K.H. since 1875. In a letter dated January 12, 1881, William Q. Judge in New York, writing to "H.P.B. and Co. . ." in Bombay, says: "Now I would be very much pleased could I know from whom it [the note] came, whether Kashmir or M. or who of all the long list of great ones. . . .I was highly favored with a picture of the latter. . . ." Annie Besant adds a footnote to clarify Judge's reference to "Kashmir" and "M." Her footnote reads: "The Masters K.H. and M." In other words, "Kashmir" is the Master K.H. while "M." is the Master Morya. (Quoted in Annie Besant's The Case Against W.Q. Judge, 1895, pp. 37-38.) In refuting a critic of Madame Blavatsky's, W.Q. Judge (in his 1892 article "Madame Blavatsky in India") brings up the following point: ". . . I may be allowed to say that it [i.e., the name `Koot Hoomi'] was not originally `Cotthume,' but was one [i.e., another name `Kashmir'] that I and others in New York were perfectly familiar with. . . ." (See W.Q. Judge's Echoes Of The Orient, Vol. III, p. 203.) In a January, 1882 letter to Olcott, the Master Morya tells the Colonel: "K.H.'s conditions are changed, you must remember, he is no more the `Kasmiri' of old." (Letters From The Masters Of The Wisdom, Second Series, Letter 35.) In a January 6, 1886 letter, Madame Blavatsky, writing to Olcott, informs him : ". . . Countess [Wachtmeister is] here, and she sees I have almost no books. Master and Kashmiri [are] dictating in turn [portions of the Secret Doctrine manuscript]. . . ." (Quoted in Boris de Zirkoff's Rebirth Of The Occult Tradition, 1977, p. 23.) Also during this same month (January, 1886), Dr. William Hubbe- Schleiden received a note from the Master M., which reads in part: ". . .the `Secret Doctrine' is dictated to Upasika [H.P.B.] partly by myself & partly by my Brother K.H." (Quoted in Boris de Zirkoff's Rebirth Of The Occult Tradition, 1977, p. 16.) Collating information from these two letters, H.P.B.'s reference to "Master" is to "M." (Morya) and her reference to "Kashmiri" is to "K.H." (Koot Hoomi). Even William Emmette Coleman, one of H.P.B.'s most hostile critics, knew that: "Towards the latter part of her stay in America, H.P.B. introduced to Messrs. Olcott and Judge an adept called `The Kashmiri Brother.'" A few lines later, Coleman adds that ". . . he (K.H.)was known in America as `The Kashmiri Brother." (Quoted in Theosophy Exposed Or Mrs. Besant And Her Guru, 1893, p. 26.) Extracted from: http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson5.htm ---------------------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 13:19:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 21:19:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 50803 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 21:19:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 21:19:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 21:19:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 21:19:13 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:19:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian wrote: "What 'race' where [sic] the 'Mahatmas'. . . ?" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4540 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you wrote: "What 'race' where [sic] the 'Mahatmas' if they where [sic] not=20 Tibetans ? . . . whoever wrote these letters these 'Mahatmas' didn't identify themselves with 'Tibetans' that is clear from the=20 fact that they called the 'Tibetans semblances of Humanity' that had to 'disappear'. . . what where [sic] the Mahatmas if they where [sic]=20 not Tibetans, yet claimed to be writing from Tibet ?" Brian, I am not exactly sure what your argument is in the above=20 extract. Which Mahatma or Master are you asking about? The following historical items may be of interest to some readers on=20 Theos-Talk. Concerning Master KH, Mr. Sinnett said in THE OCCULT WORLD (first=20 published June 1881): "My correspondent is known to me as the Mahatma Koot Hoomi. This is=20 his 'Tibetan Mystic name' - occultists, it would seem, taking new=20 names on initiation. . . ." Mr. Sinnett also writes in the same work that Koot Hoomi was: ". . . a native of the Punjab who was attracted to occult studies=20 from his earliest boyhood. He was sent to Europe while still a youth=20 at the intervention of a relative - himself an occultist - to be=20 educated in Western knowledge, and since then has been fully=20 initiated in the greater knowledge of the East." H.P. Blavatsky in 1884 wrote in LIGHT magazine: ". . . the Master [Koot Hoomi] is a Punjabi, whose family was settled=20 for years in Cashmere."=20 Quoted from: http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/hpb/MrALilliesDelusions.htm On page 16 of the October, 1884 unpublished draft of the=20 S.P.R.'s "First Report. . .On Phenomena In Connection With The=20 Theosophical Society," one finds the following statement: "According to Theosophical statements, Koot Hoomi is a=20 Brahmin. . . .He was...educated in Europe, and attended Professor=20 Fechner's lectures. He became an Adept, and took up his residence in=20 Thibet, where he is relic-bearer to the Teschu-Lama, an office in=20 Thibet resembling that - say of Cardinal Vicar, in the Roman Catholic=20 Church. . . ."=20 HPB wrote in 1886: "There is beyond the Himalayas a nucleus of Adepts, of VARIOUS=20 nationalities; and the Teschu lama knows them, and they act together,=20 and some of them are with him and yet remain unknown in their true=20 character even to the average lamas....My Master [M.] and K.H. and=20 several others I know personally are there...." CAPS ADDED. (H.P.B.in=20 a letter to Franz Hartmann, THE PATH, March, 1896, p.370.) Brian, as far as your comments about "these 'Mahatmas' didn't=20 identify themselves with 'Tibetans'", please note the following.=20 In 1880, KH wrote: "Our best, most learned, and holiest adepts are of the races of=20 the 'greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs . . . ." Extracted from: The Mahatma Letters, 2nd edition, p. 15. And if I mistake not, chela D.K. was Tibetan. Here is another tidbit of information provided by Charles Johnston: " 'This is my Master,' she said, 'whom we call Mahatma Morya. I have=20 his picture here.' "And she showed me a small panel in oils. If ever I saw genuine awe=20 and reverence in a human face, it was in hers, when she spoke of her=20 Master. He was a Rajput by birth, she said, one of the old warrior=20 race of the Indian desert, the finest and handsomest nation in the=20 world. Her Master was a giant, six feet eight, and splendidly built,=20 a superb type of manly beauty. Even in the picture, there is a=20 marvelous power and fascination; the force, the fierceness even, of=20 the face; the dark, glowing eyes, which stare you out of countenance;=20 the clear-cut features of bronze, the raven hair and beard=97all spoke of manhood strength. I asked her something about his age. She=20 answered: " 'My dear, I cannot tell you exactly, for I do not know. But this I=20 will tell you. I met him first when I was twenty=97in 1851. He was in the very prime of manhood then. I am an old woman now, but he has=20 not aged a day. He is still in the prime of manhood. That is all I=20 can say. You may draw you own conclusions.' "Then she told me something about other Masters and adepts she had=20 known. She had known adepts of many races, from Northern and Southern=20 India, Tibet, Persia, China, Egypt; of various European nations,=20 Greek, Hungarian, Italian, English; of certain races in South=20 America, where she said there was a Lodge of adepts." Quoted from: http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/books/esotericworld/chapter18/ See a facsimile of Morya's portrait at: http://morya.net The above will have to suffice for now. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc =20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 16 13:41:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 21:41:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1266 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 21:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 21:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 21:41:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.112.1a7d0ead (4410) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:41:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <112.1a7d0ead.2b08158e@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:41:34 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi Sufilight and all of you With an equally friendly response, my answer to your questions are: No, I am not a "Capitalist." I do not believe in "labels, and do not subscribe to any other *specific* form of ism (including Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianism, Hebrewism, Communism, Fascism, Theosophism, Scientism, Monism or Dualism, among others :-). And, since I have nothing to sell, I am not a "salesman" (nor have I ever been). At the moment, my book is free... Since, all you need to do to read it (at least in part) and find out who I think I am -- since my "credentials" (which I'm sure B/BM didn't read :-) speak for themselves -- is go to my web sites. You can also ask questions about it and/or read my letters to the various scientific and theosophical forums -- as I'm still writing my not so "secret doctrine," and plan to use the theoretical discussions and answers I give in these forums as parts of the manuscript. (As for my "theories" -- it's only historians and proselytizers who think that what they say or believe are cut in stone "facts." :-) I'm glad to see that you believe in spiritual uplifting. from Leon Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/LHM.index.html ------------------ In a message dated 11/14/02 11:51:51 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi Leon and all of you, > >A friendly email... >I understand Leon, that you are a Salesman or a capitalist too, right ? >So how much does your book really cost ? > >These questions are meant as a spiritual uplift! >No answers are needed ! > >from >M. Sufilgiht with a friendly smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:59 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . > > In a message dated 11/11/02 11:16:16 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: > > >Quoting from Dallas's post: > > > ><<"It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote > >the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to > >practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas > >of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have > >to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T > >A & N. p. 189.]>> > > > >"Popularize" in that context brought to mind Leon's > >models, among other things. That is, I tend to agree with > >Leon that, by scientizing certain aspects of Theosophy, > >(by using a popular language of the age), one might reach > >those for whom other kinds of introductions to > >Theosophic issues might be far less applealing. > > That's right. > > >On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: > > > >((((Mauri, I shouldn't say anything in response to Leon, > >who is not even here to defend himself. But I feel the > >need to at least say the following: > > > ><< >subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion and > >Philosophy?" >>> > > > >My response to this question is: > > > >Science stands for intellectual knowledge > >Religion stands for faith Philosophy stands for > >experiential knowledge > > > >All three are necessary lest Theosophy "be nothing more > >than another religious dogma destined to die on the > >vine?" Emphasizing intellectual knowledge alone will kill > >Theosophy in only a few generations. It is already doing > >so, and Theosophy is today in its last gasp because of its > >over-emphasis on intellectualism. The "head doctrine" is > >intellectual knowledge, the "heart doctrine" is > >experiential knowledge and the one will get us nowhere > >without the other. >>>))))))) > > All I can say in response to this is; "All that goes without saying." > > But, if being a well rounded theosophist requires a balance of all three > aspects -- I haven't found one single teacher (in more than 50 years of > searching) who could show me (starting from my own position on the path > and my own propensities for learning) the perfect way to understand and > practice each direction in this modern age. So I was forced to learn the > "head doctrine" from one teacher, the "heart doctrine" from another, and > then had to find out for myself the rest of the "intellectual" and "experiential" > knowledge I needed to gain the "faith" that when I arrived at "self > realization" or oneness with the Supreme Spirit, I would have the ability > to carry out the Bodhisattva work without having to ask anyone else what > there was to do or say to any person in accordance with his/her degree of > understanding, his/her current state of consciousness, and his/her > immediate psychological, emotional, physical and/or spiritual needs. > But this wasn't all that difficult. > > Amazingly, I was lucky enough to find out about 30 years ago that all those > separate teachers were speaking to me directly through HPB. All I had to > do was hear them, study, concentrate, and follow their suggested paths of > meditation (they offered me Patanjali and the Voice of the Silence to > practice) -- while learning to supplement their teachings with the new > knowledge of modern sciences and technologies (which governs our present > lives) that HPB didn't have access to... And, as she advised me directly -- > to "Write [my] own Secret Doctrine in the language of [my] age." So, after > a few years of such study and meditation -- we were able to write, in one > afternoom, the entire ABC theory and discourse (which, several years later > was posted on my web site) -- and correlate it with all the head and heart > doctrines of theosophy that are thoroughly explained in the original SD > (with all its ancient scriptural references) and other writings of HPB and the > Masters. So, what more (at least for me) was there to know or continue to > practice? > > Think about this! Isn't it amazing how HPB managed to teach the heart > doctrine while expounding the head doctrine, and managed to teach the > head doctrine while expounding the heart doctrine? It's also amazing to me > that, outside of a few theosophical teachers I've come across at the United > Lodge of Theosophists over the past 50 odd years, I haven't found another > who could match HPB's ability to do that. And, even then, none of them had > enough scientific knowledge to fulfill my need to get into dialogues with > trained scientists in many disciplines, and make my case for theosophy in > their own jargon. > > Thus, as it is now, we (whenever I need the right words to explain a subtle > point, I ask HPB ;-) do not teach any one method -- since we can only > answer questions in the same framework that they are asked. So, for the > scientifically minded, we can lead them to the theosophical synthesis > through their interest in scientific and technical understandings. For the > philosophically minded, we lead them there through their interest in thinking > about the nature of things and their ontology's. For the religious minded, > we can show them the proper path of meditative practices to awaken their > inner understanding of the true nature of reality and their position in it. > And for all of them, while we give them exactly what they ask for, we > manage to show them the questions to ask themselves and, thereby, > turn them toward whatever they are missing in the other directions of > theosophical understanding and practice. > > >Leon wrote: < >theosophy really is "more "realistically about"? >> > > > >As I see it, there would seem not to be any solution, or > >"more realistic approach to Theosophy," that by-passes > >anything that's relevant to a broader and lasting > >understanding of Theosophy. In other words (?), > >regardless of whichever doctrine or approach one might > >be inclined to follow, if that approach is not wisely > >enough balanced with aspects of intellect, faith, and > >experience, the result might not be particularly > >representative of "Theosophic progress" . . . I'm making > >a "general comment," here, and not accusing anybody of > >not being wise enough. We all seem to be "wise enough" > >in our various "own ways," basically, often times, > >but/"but" . . . > > Yes. But . . . What? Studying theosophy has nothing to do with results. > One either needs to know, or not -- depending on where one stands on the > road to enlightenment, and what the confusion is in one's mind. Wisdom is > knowing what one needs to know or do. And that has to be left for > individual choice. > Each of us is on a different level of understanding and openness to new > ideas. So, theosophy is as theosophy does. That's all there is to it. If > you need the head doctrine to do better as a theosophist, then that is what > you direct your questions and your studies toward. If you need to devote > yourself to a higher power or principle, then that is the direction of your > search. That's why it says in the Declaration of the United Lodge of > Theosophists; "It regards as Theosophists all those in the true service of > Humanity" ... And, "Welcomes . . . all those . . . who desire to fit > themselves,by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach > others" It's that "doing" (based on one's "knowing") that makes one a > successful theosophist. And what we can learn intellectually (scientifically > and philosophically) and religiously practice -- is what we need in order to > make that action the best we possibly can do at the level we are presently > at. Progress comes from just that -- without having to think about > attaining anything for oneself. > > Practically, positively and hopefully, > LHM > > >Speculatively, > >Mauri From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 14:12:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 22:12:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 27996 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 22:12:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 22:12:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 22:12:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 22:12:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:12:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A Question for Brian about one of his statements Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7859 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you write: "'The Mahatma Letters' claim: 'The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub- race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity.'" You then comment on this extract: "So doesn't it seem wrote these letters clearly identified himself/herself/'The White Brotherhood', with white 'Aryan' not even Indian. (Mahatma Letters to Sinnet in INDIA): 'yourselves the white conquerors' ?" Brian, here is a serious question for you and I hope you will answer it in a serious way. What is your reasoning for coming to the above conclusion? I really don't understand how you got to your conclusion. The sentence right before the part you quote reads: "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics. . . . " Does this part of KH's statement which you did NOT quote throw additional light on what you conclude above? Also consider what KH says several pages prior in ML-23b to Mr. Sinnett: "Remember, you belong to the fifth Race, yet you [Sinnett as an Englishmen, European]are but a Western sub-race. . . . During the minority of a sub-race, it is preserved for it by its predecessor, which disappears, dies out generally, when the former 'comes to age.' At first, most of them squander and mismanage their property, or leave it untouched in the ancestral coffers. They reject contemptuously the advices of their elders and prefer, boy-like, playing in the streets to studying and making the most of the untouched wealth stored up for them in the records of the Past. Thus during your transition period -- the middle ages -- Europe rejected the testimony of Antiquity, calling such sages as Herodotus and other learned Greeks -- the Father of Lies, until she knew better and changed the appellation into that of 'Father of History.' Instead of neglecting, you now accumulate and add to your wealth. As every other race you had your ups and downs, your periods of honour and dishonour, your dark midnight and -- you are now approaching your brilliant noon. The youngest of the fifth race family you were for long ages the unloved and the uncared for, the Cendrillon in your home. . . ." Certainly this prior extract gives better context to what KH writes and which you only partially quote. I give the more complete extract from KH to Sinnett: "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors [the English, the Europeans]. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as Popalvul and a few others unknown to Science." Therefore, if anything, I would conclude that the writer Koot Hoomi would be a member of the Aryan Asiatics. Surely the interpretation I am giving here fits in with much else given in the letters of Master Koot Hoomi. In one letter KH writes to Sinnett: "But if you now so dislike the idea of a purely nominal executive supervision by Col. Olcott -- an American of your own race -- you would surely rebel against dictation from a Hindu, whose habits and methods are those of his own people, and whose race, despite your natural benevolence, you have not yet learnt to tolerate, let alone to love or respect. Think well before you ask for our guidance. Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the 'greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- you know the lion is proverbially a dirty and offensive beast, despite his strength and courage. Is it certain that your good compatriots would more easily forgive our Hindu solecisms in manners than those of their own kinsmen of America? If my observations have not misled I should say this was doubtful. National prejudices are apt to leave one's spectacles undimmed. You say 'how glad we should be, if that one (to guide you) were yourself,' meaning your unworthy correspondent. My good Brother, are you certain, that the pleasant impression you now may have from our correspondence, would not instantly be destroyed upon seeing me?" Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm Also from another letter from KH to Sinnett: "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say to him [Hume] of the English in general. They are haughty. To us especially, so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must not confound your own private views -- especially those you have now - - with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and cashmere roses. This is the least I could do in atonement for my countrymen." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm Certainly all of the above which I have quoted helps to explain KH's statement to Sinnett: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." The English and the Europeans. Finally, contrast and compare the two statements by KH: (1) "even in free England we [Hindu] are regarded as an 'inferior race.'" (2) "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors [the English, the Europeans in India and other English and European colonies]" Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 14:17:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 22:17:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 76193 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 22:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 22:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 22:17:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 22:17:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:17:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1630 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve:Brahmin language was to them what Latin was to RCs. Brian: This is Sanskrit ! Sanskrit was only used (yes just like the Chatolocs with their mass in "Latin" that time only) not as a spoken language but only for ritual means and singing mantrams. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 - In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: I thought you would catch on, so what about Blavatsky's > senzar ? > > Blavatsky herself said it came from the name of the Zend Avesta, the > Zoroastrian sacred book, thus Zend-Zar. > > It should be said to make this fair that she was right in saying that > the Brahmins of India had a "secret" language which they used for > esoteric purposes, which sounds very much like Senzar, which is > supposed to be a dialect of Sanskrit. The existence of this language > was written about by one of the first Jesuit missionaries who went > there to pester people into becoming Catholic, despite the fact they > allready had an indigenous spirituality. I found a quote from this > guy years ago, but regret that I cannot specify where I found it > aafter al this time. I do remember the Jesuit guy said the secret > Brahmin language was to them what Latin was to RCs. The description > was not complete enough to make it clear whether the language was > Sanskrit or something which has been kept private by the Pundits. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 16 15:03:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 23:03:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 98300 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 23:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 23:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 23:03:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 23:03:49 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:03:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Olcott, Judge and Coleman on Koot Hoomi/Kashmir/Kashmiri Brother Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1334 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Olcott, Judge and Coleman on Koot Hoomi/Kashmir/Kashmiri Brother ---------------------------------------- Henry Olcott wrote in 1882: "I have thus personally known 'Koot Hoomi' since 1875, making his=20 acquaintance in New York."=20 See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcott11.html --------------------------------------- William Judge wrote in 1881 to "H.P.B. and Co. . ."=20 "Now I would be very much pleased could I know from whom it [the=20 note] came, whether Kashmir or M. or who of all the long list of=20 great ones. . . .I was highly favored with a picture of the=20 latter. . . ."=20 See: http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson5.htm --------------------------------------- William Coleman wrote in 1893: "Towards the latter part of her stay in America, H. P. B. introduced=20 to Messrs. Olcott and Judge an adept called 'The Kashmiri Brother.'=20 The most noted of the adepts exploited in later years is called Koot=20 Hoomi Lal Singh. His name was unknown in America; it was first given=20 to Mr. A. P. Sinnett in 1880, as one of the letters of Koot Hoomi has=20 stated =97 the same letter also stating that he (K. H.) was known in America as 'The Kashmiri Brother.'"=20 See: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/cole1893.htm ------------------------------------------ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 15:43:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 23:43:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 1769 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 23:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 23:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 23:43:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Nov 2002 23:43:27 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:43:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A Question for Brian about one of his statements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9444 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Daniel C. Caldwell: Qustions for Brian... Brian: Sure I will answer all your questions as soon you send a list of the quotes from The Mahatma letters about "last sub-race of the fifth" and about "elder brothers." I could do that to, but if you yourself do it you wont say its all wrong, so I like to leave it at that and wait before proceeding for that first. And in order to have this discussion not from the beginning go all over the place, I want to start with discussing SOLLELY the MAHATMA LETTERS for starters. You can make a list of next "Isis Unveiled" or which other Theosophical books or time periods (there is more then 100 years of publication time involved here) I am to bussy with dozens of other unrelated subjects and projects independend of the topics on my website that I can and want to only discuss one thing at a time in each of the 14 mail groups I am a member of. And on theos talk apart from the related "stanzas of Dzyan" that I started with Steve for the remaining part I like to concentrate just on The Mahatma letters for the next ten days, those that want to address me. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Brian, you write: > > "'The Mahatma Letters' claim: 'The highest race (physical > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the > white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub- > race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and > their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, > Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the > fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, > fallen, degraded semblances of humanity.'" > > You then comment on this extract: > > "So doesn't it seem wrote these letters clearly identified > himself/herself/'The White Brotherhood', with white 'Aryan' not even > Indian. (Mahatma Letters to Sinnet in INDIA): 'yourselves the white > conquerors' ?" > > Brian, here is a serious question for you and I hope you will answer > it in a serious way. > > What is your reasoning for coming to the above conclusion? I really > don't understand how you got to your conclusion. > > The sentence right before the part you quote reads: > > "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth > (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; > and those are the Aryan Asiatics. . . . " > > Does this part of KH's statement which you did NOT quote throw > additional light on what you conclude above? > > Also consider what KH says several pages prior in ML-23b to Mr. > Sinnett: > > "Remember, you belong to the fifth Race, yet you [Sinnett as an > Englishmen, European]are but a Western sub-race. . . . During the > minority of a sub-race, it is preserved for it by its predecessor, > which disappears, dies out generally, when the former 'comes to age.' > At first, most of them squander and mismanage their property, or > leave it untouched in the ancestral coffers. They reject > contemptuously the advices of their elders and prefer, boy-like, > playing in the streets to studying and making the most of the > untouched wealth stored up for them in the records of the Past. Thus > during your transition period -- the middle ages -- Europe rejected > the testimony of Antiquity, calling such sages as Herodotus and other > learned Greeks -- the Father of Lies, until she knew better and > changed the appellation into that of 'Father of History.' Instead of > neglecting, you now accumulate and add to your wealth. As every other > race you had your ups and downs, your periods of honour and > dishonour, your dark midnight and -- you are now approaching your > brilliant noon. The youngest of the fifth race family you were for > long ages the unloved and the uncared for, the Cendrillon in your > home. . . ." > > Certainly this prior extract gives better context to what KH writes > and which you only partially quote. I give the more complete extract > from KH to Sinnett: > > "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth > (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; > and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the > white conquerors [the English, the Europeans]. The majority of > mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- > the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets > (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and > remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race > of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity > are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither > the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as > Popalvul and a few others unknown to Science." > > Therefore, if anything, I would conclude that the writer Koot Hoomi > would be a member of the Aryan Asiatics. > > Surely the interpretation I am giving here fits in with much else > given in the letters of Master Koot Hoomi. > > In one letter KH writes to Sinnett: > > "But if you now so dislike the idea of a purely nominal executive > supervision by Col. Olcott -- an American of your own race -- you > would surely rebel against dictation from a Hindu, whose habits and > methods are those of his own people, and whose race, despite your > natural benevolence, you have not yet learnt to tolerate, let alone > to love or respect. Think well before you ask for our guidance. Our > best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of > the 'greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- you know the lion is > proverbially a dirty and offensive beast, despite his strength and > courage. Is it certain that your good compatriots would more easily > forgive our Hindu solecisms in manners than those of their own > kinsmen of America? If my observations have not misled I should say > this was doubtful. National prejudices are apt to leave one's > spectacles undimmed. You say 'how glad we should be, if that one (to > guide you) were yourself,' meaning your unworthy correspondent. My > good Brother, are you certain, that the pleasant impression you now > may have from our correspondence, would not instantly be destroyed > upon seeing me?" > > Quoted from: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm > > Also from another letter from KH to Sinnett: > > "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say > to him [Hume] of the English in general. They are haughty. To us > especially, so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must > not confound your own private views -- especially those you have now - > - with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course > with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations > makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent > to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern > Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of > race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as > an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark > about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner > but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would > a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded > in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same > trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on > the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- > 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you > could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the > fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- > Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally > coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers > instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most > certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not > tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or > physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to > invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry > in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and > cashmere roses. This is the least I could do in atonement for my > countrymen." > > Quoted from: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm > > Certainly all of the above which I have quoted helps to explain KH's > statement to Sinnett: > > "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of > the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." The English and the > Europeans. > > Finally, contrast and compare the two statements by KH: > > (1) "even in free England we [Hindu] are regarded as an 'inferior > race.'" > > (2) "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race > of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors [the English, the > Europeans in India and other English and European colonies]" > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 16 15:59:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 16 Nov 2002 23:59:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 17291 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2002 23:59:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2002 23:59:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2002 23:59:57 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.46.3117edd5 (4012) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:59:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46.3117edd5.2b0835f7@cs.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:59:51 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: To Steve Stanzas of Dzyan. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Or a British Princess-- "Ze Diana" , lol. John From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 16 16:21:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 00:21:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 20065 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 00:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 00:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 00:21:51 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.74.2667e1e7 (4012) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:21:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <74.2667e1e7.2b083b1b@cs.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:21:47 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's Argument concerning HPB's comments on "Aryans" in ISI... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, You might recall long ago I asked Brigitte to cite the formal statute convention in effect in England from 1875 to the year of H.P.B.'s death in regard to a legal requirement to exhaustively cite author source. You might also remember there was no response from this "Scholar" who surly could give this information to us. Additionally, why they arrive at so much commotion because "Books" were used is beyond me, as it was commonly told by Mead, Pryse, and others that she kept them constantly busy running to the Bodelien and other place to retrieve the works she had been instructed to use a quote from in her publication or work. So if readers of Theosophical works recall this why can't the scholars also when it takes so little effort? It seems there is intentional obviation of certain facts here. John From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 16 16:42:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 00:42:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 44491 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 00:42:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 00:42:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 00:42:00 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.126.1aa2bb41 (4012) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:41:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <126.1aa2bb41.2b083fd6@cs.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:41:58 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Eldon, Thanks for the contribution about Richard Taylor. It makes me wonder if he ever traveled to that place 55 miles So. east of Patna and 7 miles north of Rajgir which was once the Capital of Magadha referred to in Patanjali's Mahabhashya. John From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 16 17:27:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 01:27:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 14815 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 01:27:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 01:27:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 01:27:28 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.190.10c2e3be (4012) for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:27:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <190.10c2e3be.2b084a7a@cs.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:27:22 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian wrote: "What 'race' where [sic] the 'Mahatmas'. . . ?" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, Thanks, I enjoyed your citations as usual. Your citations mention the Teschu Lama. I refer the list to the following work, as it seems relevant. "Buddhism the Science of Life" by Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil Crump. They were Theosophists and members of the Peking China Lodge of Theosophy. On page 153 (2nd Edition-1928) there is a group photo. Following page 66 will be found a photo of Panchen Lobzang Tub-ten Cho-gyi Nyima- 6th Grand Lama of Tashi (Teschu)-Lhum-po, Tibet. He was born in 1883 and installed in 1888. his predecessor was Panchen Cho-gyi Trak-pa Ten-pa Wanh Chuk, born 1854-passed over1882. H.P. Blavatsky visited the Tashi Lama in the 1860's. John From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 16 17:30:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 01:30:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 90043 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 01:30:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 01:30:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 01:30:26 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DEGX-0007hq-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:30:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD6F132.B5A97C68@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:30:26 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <3DD528C8.14307.2009F65@localhost> <000b01c28d87$b512ba40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Let us make a non-voilence movement - driven by the words of RELIGION! Isn't that kind of like having a Brotherhood movement led by the Ku Klux Klan? Bart Lidofsky From adelasie@surfari.net Sat Nov 16 17:58:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 39173 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAH1wDAZ027466 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:58:14 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:57:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Message-ID: <3DD68721.6398.1357285@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000b01c28d87$b512ba40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Hi M. Sufilight, I seriously think that if each one of us tried honestly to put into practice the principle teachings of Theosophy (or any great spiritual tradition in history) in our daily lives, everything would change completely. > Let us make a non-voilence movement - driven by the words of RELIGION > ! I can see that NO --- non-voilence movement are as well known as for > instance the Amnesty International is today. What if we chose daily to find what is good in others, instead of pointing out what is wrong? What if we accepted others as they are, instead of expecting them to be different? What if we just refused to fight and argue? What if we put our own needs and desires second to those of others? Wouldn't we be a non-violence movement in ourselves? If we take seriously the teachings about the unity of all life, we realize that everything we do affects the whole. What we do may seem like a little thing, but the Master teaches us that there are no little things. Adelasie > From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 18:38:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 02:38:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 69566 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 02:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 02:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 02:38:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20021117023844.45338.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.11.6] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:38:44 PST Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:38:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: to adelasie - changing the world To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3DD68721.6398.1357285@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Dear Adelasie, I have been reading with much pleasure your approach to "influencing" others and "changing the world". It is all very well to have the idealism to form some kind of reactionary/revolutionary group that goes out and changes everything in a breif period of time, but we know that this rarely succeeds. By changing the way those closest to us (ie family, friends, neighbours, work mates etc) think and act we could probably have a greater impact on humanity. If you think about it it is like seven degrees of seperation: if enough of us can influence just one person, and that person can in turn influence another, then eventually the entire world will be influenced. The process can be quickened if we use media mediums properly and advantageously. For example, I can influence my family directly but this will only amount to 30 people at the most. On the other hand I can influence my Theos-Talk "family" which has about 170 members and can get my message across to more people. Fortunately, such a theory is supported by recent advances in complexity science and how information is passed through a system. Now let's go back to our media mediums. Would you agree that the modern media is supporting the intrenched capitalist system? By this I mean that the media, by and large, is generally in support of a capitalist system that at the end of the day promotes selfishness over altruism. Now if this media is influencing enough people the system is self-supportive and has a feedback whereby people believe that a capitalist system is the best, and only, economic system solely because it is purported to be so. Now would you agree that if the media were more altruistically tuned and encouraged us to help those in need there would be more altruism in the world? If so, then one way we could align people's behaviours with those advocated by theosophy and other religions would be to penetrate the media. Curiously pondering, Mic __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 19:10:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 03:10:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 35383 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 03:10:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 03:10:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 03:10:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 03:10:02 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:09:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: to adelasie - changing the world Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021117023844.45338.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2368 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.81.225 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Mic Forster wrote: > I can > influence my family directly but this will only amount > to 30 people at the most. On the other hand I can > influence my Theos-Talk "family" which has about 170 > members and can get my message across to more people. The problem with that is, it ignores the geometric expansion. If each of the thirty people in your family know thirty people and each of those know thirty people, you are only a few removes from everyone in Australia. It only fails if everyone you know is a loner. So the question is the quality of the ideas you are putting out. If te pond you need to throw a stone into is Theosophical, then theos-talk is a more appropriate pond than your immediate family. But if people resonate to what you are saying, it doesn't make any difference how small your initial audience is. > Would you > agree that the modern media is supporting the > intrenched capitalist system? By this I mean that the > media, by and large, is generally in support of a > capitalist system that at the end of the day promotes > selfishness over altruism. Question: what economic theory promotes altruism over selfishness? I used to work in the altruism field and got out when I was repeatedly appalled at how self-serving and un-altruistic everyone in it was. I am reminded of Diogenes looking for an honest man and Bertrand Russell looking for a rational man. I spent some years looking for an altruistic man, then decided life is short, art is long, and I have better things to do. Call me a cynic but I believe everyone is out for himself and that there must be some cosmic reason for it, which means it is OK for it to be that way. According to game theory (a school of mathematics), though, rational selfishness eventually leads to the outcome which most benefits everyone in the system. That is how societies were formed in prehistoric times. Everyone in the society was striclty out for Number One, but ended up working together for the common good because that was the best way to cynically serve their own self interest. Of course that assumes the members of society are RATIONALLY self-interested. Those who are not rationally serving themselves by the time they reach a certain age tend to be excluded from society. We call it incarceration and death. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 19:14:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 03:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 97466 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 03:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 03:14:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 03:14:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 03:14:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:14:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian wrote: "What 'race' where [sic] the 'Mahatmas'. . . ?" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <190.10c2e3be.2b084a7a@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 928 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach What evidence is there that "H.P. Blavatsky visited the Tashi Lama in the 1860's." ? --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Daniel, > Thanks, I enjoyed your citations as usual. Your citations mention the > Teschu > Lama. I refer the list to the following work, as it seems relevant. > > "Buddhism the Science of Life" by Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil > Crump. They > were Theosophists and members of the Peking China Lodge of Theosophy. On > page 153 (2nd Edition-1928) there is a group photo. > > Following page 66 will be found a photo of Panchen Lobzang Tub- ten > Cho-gyi > Nyima- 6th Grand Lama of Tashi (Teschu)-Lhum-po, Tibet. He was born in > 1883 > and installed in 1888. his predecessor was Panchen Cho-gyi Trak- pa > Ten-pa > Wanh Chuk, born 1854-passed over1882. H.P. Blavatsky visited the Tashi > Lama > in the 1860's. > > John From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 16 20:18:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 04:18:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 41500 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 04:18:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 04:18:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 04:18:44 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DGtQ-0000gi-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:18:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD718A1.8EB4D8C0@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:18:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > results without knowing what you are talking about." I CRINGE when I > see some book by a New Age type who doesn't understan the mathematics > trying to use quantum mechanics to give a scientific air to some The Skeptics Society (http://www.skeptic.com/) has a very interesting videotape called "Quantum Quackery: Physics, Metaphysics, and Flapdoodle", which is a layman's description of what Quantum Mechanics are, and how they are misused (and why the misuse is a misuse). Bart From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 16 21:19:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 05:19:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 5147 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 05:19:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 05:19:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 05:19:07 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.175.11e79a52 (4410) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:19:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <175.11e79a52.2b0880c8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:19:04 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/14/02 9:48:35 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >leonmaurer wrote: less and less sense to anyone who can THINK. Again, why do you use an out of context remark in a cleverly twisted and ambiguous sentence to make a derogatory insinuation? Could this be another example of what many of us are complaining about in all your anti-theosophical propaganda publications? >Brian: An intelligent Theosophists who long left this list although (in >spite of him not being on Theos talk) you keep addressing postings to >him, Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to >Leon Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." >Seeing your post today, I must say Jerry Schueler is right. My post was a straightforward reply in answer to a cross post of Mauri, who included personal comments about me from someone else (GS) on Theos-1. Is there anything wrong with my answering his remarks in the manner that I did? If you think so, why don't you quote me and present your counter arguments like any thoughtful member of this discussion group would do? Besides, what has this post to Mauri have to do with your personal opinions about anything or anyone? What post does your remark about today's post refer tol? The negative innuendo about it (which you, apparently intentionally, didn't quote here or respond to) only adds to the depths of degradation that you are willing to go to defend your own prejudices and biases. So, is this another of your propaganda ploys -- using, questionable opinions of ("credentialed" or those you label as "intelligent") others to back up your own ad homonym arguments and prejudicial statements as being factual? Or, are you using another of your tiresome innuendo ploys to imply that anyone else on this list, besides you and the so called, "intelligent theosophists" who left it, are unintelligent? Ha, Ha... You are becoming more and more a big joke around here -- where (in my opinion) there are quite a few independent thinkers left to talk in telligently about theosophy -- (without limiting such discussion solely to Buddhism, Hinduism or Sufism, etc. as the sole authorities, or to unrelated politics, or to non theosophical, philosophical, or scientific arguments over opinionated and selective, second hand personalized history -- that conflates and confuses the messenger with the message). But, then, you've made it perfectly clear that you are no theosophist, or even a philosopher or scientist. What a pity that you have to stoop so low as to be here among us ignorant theosophists. :-( Maybe you should set up your own mailing list, limited to your specific subject of interest -- instead of cluttering our mailboxes with endless, long winded diatribes discrediting theosophy and its teachers that has nothing to do with its teachings, objectives, and practices -- that are of particular interest to its students. Isn't that what this forum is all about? Of course, Jerry has a right to his opinion, for whatever that's worth, but if you also think that because someone doesn't agree with your opinions and prejudices that such a person is "prickly" -- well, that's your opinion (which isn't worth the pixels its printed with. :-) Although, maybe such pricks might help in bursting your flimsy bubbles based on the "nattering nonsense of negative nabobs" (to borrow a phrase from a notorious dissembling American Politician :-) >As for "credentials," I know they say yours are close to zero. Is this another typical Brian/Bridgitte propaganda technique? Who are "They"? And what credentials does anyone need to speak truth? Do your credentials verify that what you "know" (about anything you write or say) has any semblance of verifiable truth? Why should anyone be forced to accept anything as facts, based on anyone else's "credentials" or "authority"? > Bhakti Anada Goswhami , I only know him from his letters, made an >intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up >, see below. Thank you for admitting that your "impressions" are what make you think that what other people say or write is the unnassailable truth that can't be argued against. If someeone says, "I think so and so" -- that's an opinion... And, anyone has the right to say, "I think you are wrong" -- and give his reasons for so saying. Since when does one's credentials have anything to do with the truth or falsity of what one says or thinks? Einstein's scientific credentials were impeccable, as was Newton's and Heisenberg's, etc. How come there are many scientists today, with equally impeccable credentials (as well as those with none at all to speak of :-) who disagree with them on direct scientific experimental or mathematical grounds? Is tat why all of them, still refer to their agreements or disagreements as being "Theories" rather than facts? So, who gave you the right to insist on your own infallibility? Especially, when you insist on resting your opinions on the fallible opinions of others. (Snip blurb -- since this is the umpteenth time someone else's credentials have been dumped on us to verify Brian/Bridgitte's veracity) > But he is not "made up" as you ,leonmaurer@a. claim, he is a real >person. > Why don't you quote where I "claimed" that BAG was "made up?" Although, I may have suspected it -- since I wouldn't put it past you (i.e., if you are the same androgenous dissembling "Austrian researcher" who has been drubbing us with weakly argued, opinionated and prejudiced anti-theosophical and HPB bashing propaganda for the past couple of years.) And why are you including the below, non sequitur, self-serving diatribe about DC in a letter written as a personal attack on my credibility? What have I got to do with Daniel's arguments with you, or yours with him? Does this make anything else you say have any semblance of truth? Or, is it another of your twisty and tricky propaganda tricks? And, I also wonder why you gratuitously left this paragraph in as part of my selectively quoted post while not only denigrating by innuendo, but also clipping everything else I said that made some theosophical sense -- (which might prove that you really have a hatred of theosophy for some devious reason of your own that you are not telling us)? (Now, I wonder who is really being the pricky tricky one? :-) But, don't get me wrong (again). I have no argument about what you, BAG, or DC says, true or false, about the authenticity of the Mahatma Letters, or the peccadilloes of HPB as a personality. (I think each of you "one tracked thinkers" are all beating a dead horse, so to speak.) My only interest is in the entire "message" HPB delivered (wherever it came from) -- that I have studied comparatively and carefully for more than fifty years, correlated it with all disciplines of both western and eastern science as far as they can go, and practiced its mysteries and meditations as deeply as anyone has gone. (Been OOB more times than I can remember, has an ADE, experienced every ASC, etc.) As a result, I found it entirely consistent with the teachings of ALL the Great Masters of Wisdom since ancient antiquity. Therefore I know what I know, and no false arguments based on faulty reasoning, opinions of others, and non sequitur historical diatribes about personalities and their supposed machinations, is going to shake me of this direct knowledge. And, as I see it (in conjunction with added correlation's at the cutting edges of modern physical and metaphysical sciences) this presentation of fundamental theosophy is entirely valid as a proper teaching, "In the language of this age," to bring the world toward a better understanding of the unity of all beings, and the necessity for a universal brotherhood on Earth (which includes the Earth itself). The separations and depredations brought on by organized Buddhism, Hinduism, Moslemism, Hebrewism, Christianism, and all the other sectarianisms (including organized Theosophism) with their sub-schools and sub-sub schools, along with the false conclusions of reductive science -- have to become things of the past... Suitable for historians to talk and argue about, but dead issues to the coming brotherhood of Humanity, or if peaceful coexistence of all sentient beings is ever to become a universal reality. If you have any disagreements with this, I would be glad to discuss theosophy and its aims and purposes with you on a strictly philosophical or metaphysical level without bringing in any considerations of personalities or "authorities." I am not in favor of killing the messenger before one fully comprehends the message -- as you seem to be trying to do in an excessively fanatical manner. BTW -- even if HPB stole her ideas and theories from all the ancient and modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes, Pythagorus, Plato, Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- why send everyone to them to learn new languages and dig it out for themselves, covering the same tracks that Blavatsky did -- when all of it was so clearly and accurately synthesized in the SD (along with other explanatory writings of HPB and associated scriptural confirmations) in the common language that most everyone of a thoughtful mind in the world, today, can understand? Assuming that you agree with the Vedantist and Buddhist sectarian and separatist teachings of BAG and GS as well as with most popular aspects of modern reductive science (if not any other "religion") -- don't you think that your hatred of HPB (the great initial synthesizer of all these disparate, contradictory, one tracked, and separate religions, sciences and philosophies) has gone much too far, and is, in effect, doing a great disservice to humanity at large? From this point of view, you should be ashamed of yourself. And, maybe, you, and your cohorts should also stop pounding on all us poor, deluded and misled theosophical "fundamentalists." (Apropos, I wonder if your "separatists" or us "synthesists" have the right to be labeled as such? :-) In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in the "revelations" of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner -- where intuition and reason are the only Gods worth listening to. > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >> >Brian : I posted clearly WHY the letters where typed in >> >all caps, I decided to do the most fair I could think of , give this >> obviously expert person, a voice. Without compromising his the >identity. > >Also Ars Inquisitor Daniel C. Caldwell showed not to be >capable to address ANY of the issuis brought up by B.A.G. Meaning one >must conclude Daniel C. Caldwell must really know he is defending a >cococted fake in case of The Mahatma letters. In any case since >B.A.G .has come forward and identified himself, I have placed two of >his letters On-line: >> > >> > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html >> > >> > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/resp.html > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 16 22:42:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 76394 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:42:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2977 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Let's Dallas/Daniel C. Caldwell and any other Theosophists on this list present there evidence the next few hours on : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental teachings or not. Let us just have Daniel C. Caldwell, Dallas/Dalval, Leoanmaurer, or however believes "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are, post there and we watch this for a day or two, or and all of us who think they have found something genuine in The Mahatma Letters post it there and see what the experts say to that. Anybody is llowed to post there . Let Daniel C. Caldwell , Dallas, and so on post whatever they want us to believe on "theos talk" on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization the next day ore so. With more then seven hundred (exactly 707) experts in the field of ancient religions and civilisations on the Indian sub-continent. (Including Tibetologists and so on) And lets see how many of the more then sevenhundred experts there Daniel C. Caldwell and Dallas or however of those on theos-talk that believe "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are can get any of these sevenhundred and more experts there to agree. Lets Dallas/ Daniel/Leon/ and so on show us they are not just crackpot- "believers." At least with such a large group of specialists in religions , history, and archeology of the ancient Indian sub-continent (two or three ?) that would confirm that what Dallas/Daniel and so on want us to (bamboos into ?) "believing," is true. I am looking now, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization Brian PS I will place the complete postings as of this moment until in three days from now appear on the subject of "the content and precipitation of The Mahatma Letters" (with this very title) on my website in three days, whatever appears the next three days on this subject. (except of course those posters who let me know I should not place it on my web site, otherwise the postings there are public domain, and of course I will let as soon the matter takes of on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization place a message there with my intent so all there know ) And see what's coming there from the 170 members of theos talk there the next hours. Forget Isis and the SD, where even Daniel C. Caldwell will admit it is full of quotes from other books without reference, meaning there is NO WAY we know if watever in there (any quotes from Isis or SD) posted on theos-talk, was ideed written by Blavatsky (lets stand any Mahatmas.., or was copied from another readely available book. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 16 22:47:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 06:47:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 53514 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 06:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 06:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 06:47:12 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.8.2fefd9f6 (4410) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:47:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8.2fefd9f6.2b08956a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:47:06 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 All those books, like most religions, are based on the fundamental teachings of theosophy... And, as HPB pointed out in her numerous references to many of them, they can be considered as valid parts of the overall teachings -- since their conclusions all result in the same ethics and morals, as well as, in some cases, confirm various aspects of theosophical metaphysics. In the ULT, I understand that reading such books is highly recommended. Especially, the Bhagavad Gita, Lao Tse, etc. -- that are even sold at their book tables -- with most of the others located in their library for public reading or study. A number of these books were also referred to in the SD as well as in HPB's other writings. They are all, therefore, grist for the mill for most serious students of theosophy. In fact, I remember a theosophical study class many years ago where we analyzed the references to theosophical ideas in Shakespeare's plays. So, you might as well add to your list, Dosteovsy and Plato, along with many other ancient and modern writers with a spiritual bent. Its also nice to see how all such authors use theosophical ideas in their stories and poems. As far as most students I know in America, there are no forbidden books, although William Judge says that if you want to find out everything there is to know about theosophy, you could limit your study to only three books -- one of which is the Secret Doctrine, and the other two, either the Bhagavad Gita and Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms or, the Tao Te Ching and The Dammapada. LHM In a message dated 11/14/02 1:58:10 PM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi Daniel and all of you, > >I have to ask to clarify: >But Daniel is Theosophy really ONLY that MUCH about scriptures from HPB, >W.Q. Judge, etc...? >Does books like The Upanishads, The New Testament, The Quran, The Bhagavad >Gita, etc... and books like those from Ibn Arabi, Jalal-Uddin Rumi, Saadi >Shiraz etc... or Geoffrey Higgins, Idries Shah, Doctor Maximus (>:-)), >Sir >Francis Bacon, Shakespeare, etc... and books like those from T. D. Suzuki, >Lao Tze etc... NOT have any theosophical value ??? Are there important >difference between the latter books and the former , and what are they >if >any ? > >Try for instance: www.sirbacon.org > > >from >M. Sufilight with a very excited look in his head... From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 17 00:46:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 08:46:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 41761 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 08:46:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 08:46:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 08:46:50 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ad.266a4832 (4410) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:46:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:46:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/14/02 3:48:38 PM, dhyana@web.de writes: >>from assured. Now the questions remains: if Aboriginal >>Australians were meant to naturally die out why are >>they still prospering today? One could reply that they > >Who ever said that "dying out" means a death in the physical world? >To clarify what terms like this really mean and to which world they are >addressed whould be most interesting for historians, too, because there is >an ongoing quarrel with the term ausrotten (extermination), which Hitler >liked to use. Did he refer to the physical world or to another world >(whether above or below the phyiscal world). Asking this question does >not include an apology for anyone or anything. No? But it certainly appears that you have chosen this particular example = in=20 parallel with other statements made in the past, if I remember rightly, tha= t=20 often seemed to exonerate Hitler and his Nazi followers from their=20 "ausrotten" of the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and other "inferior" racial stock.= =20 Was it you I recall once saying that this genocide (as reported in the=20 archives of the Nuremberg war crimes trials, and based on records in the MI= =20 files of US Army) never happened? If so, it would be obvious which side of= =20 the historians argument you would be on. However, if it did unquestionably= =20 happen, what would be the purpose of using it as an example in this case? >The false interpretation of another ones statements thru the filters of >the own mind is termed by psychologists as projection. Not in my book. The following is one of the definitions culled from the=20 American Heritage Dictionary.=20=20 pro-jec-tion n. 1. - 7. (mathematical, technical, optical, business,=20 geological, etc.) 8. Psychology a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or=20 suppositions to others: =E2=80=9CEven trained anthropologists have been gui= lty of=20 unconscious projection=E2=80=94of clothing the subjects of their research i= n theories=20 brought with them into the field=E2=80=9D Alex Shoumatoff b. The attributi= on of=20 one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naiv= e=20 or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.=20 LHM >Frank From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 01:05:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:05:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 54816 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:05:17 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1a5.c17db2c (4584) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:05:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a5.c17db2c.2b08b5cb@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:05:15 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian wrote: "What 'race' where [sic] the 'Mahatmas'. . . ?" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 It was cited on the Folio covering the photo of the Tashi Lama in the work I cited. Possibly there are archival records of the visits as it was I beleive normal practice for them to arrange "audience" with the Tashi through much the same as a foreign minister managed visits with the equivelant of a visa permit and appointment. Elsewehere somewhere in other Theosophical works more specific reference was made of the time H.P.B. visited. Perhaps the Peking Lodge has a record, or the Cleather/Crump Archive. John From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 01:09:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:09:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 11600 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:09:14 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.159.179985f9 (4584) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:09:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <159.179985f9.2b08b6b5@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:09:09 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hmmm, Maybe this explains why I sometimes hear flocks of Ducks Quacking or quarking? And looking around no Ducks are to be found! Lol For Humours sake, John From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 01:23:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:23:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 53991 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:23:16 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ab.252ebd6b (4584) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:23:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:23:04 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Leon, Well said, thanks. John From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 01:32:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:32:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 31886 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:32:41 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A4BDF480A98 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:32:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001501c28e1b$895b04e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <2d.268f8259.2b05a3a4@cs.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:27:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Thanks, Well, I thought you already knew that !? "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord !" (from my own speech á la Martin L. King, "I've Been to the Mountaintop", nov. 2002) from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:11 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? > Hmmm, Sufi, > Which way are your eyeballs facing when your looking into your head? Lol > > Friendly joke only, John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 01:37:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:37:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 64104 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:37:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:37:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:37:54 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8605E480BE2 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:37:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002101c28e1c$43dd4bc0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD528C8.14307.2009F65@localhost> <000b01c28d87$b512ba40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD6F132.B5A97C68@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:32:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all of you, No, certainly not Bart. I think only a child would ask like that.>:-) from M. Sufilight with patience...and a upcoming true peace-movement... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:30 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Let us make a non-voilence movement - driven by the words of RELIGION! > > Isn't that kind of like having a Brotherhood movement led by the Ku > Klux Klan? > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 01:38:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 09:38:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 47909 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 09:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 09:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 09:38:29 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.17d.12037e35 (4584) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:38:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17d.12037e35.2b08bd91@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:38:25 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Brian, You still manage to miss the crucial point. No one can through intention or good hearted desire come to make a "Mahatma" manifest just to satisfy your profound uncertainty, such things simply are not in the cards. The fact that you as well as "over 700 Scholars" you cite have not experienced said occurrence on a direct basis is irrelevant. There are people today in the world who have had this type of experience even if not by either Mahatma Master Takar Khoot Hoomi Lal Singh or Morya. the insistent statement of H.P. Blavatsky was that there Benevolent Guides to Mankind ever present. whether in the context of Catholic Visitations later recognized by the Pope, Sat Guru's of the Threadlines of the East, or Bodhisattva's manisfestions respective the various branches of Buddhism, or Sufi lift of Mind and revelation. What is your prime hope when you arrive at your last day and last breath in your future ? I suggest first you conduct a poll of all "700 Scholars" asking if they had ever met or through any means experienced the equivelant of a Mahatma. John From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 02:19:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 10:19:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 3184 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 10:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 10:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 10:19:37 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A52774806D0 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:19:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002701c28e22$17f10960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD68721.6398.1357285@localhost> Subject: Re: Theos-World Adelaise on peace... Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:14:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Adelasie and all of you, The world is not only a place where we talk about Peace or War, but we really talk about EXISTENCE or non-EXISTENCE. That is where we are today. (Just like M. L. King said it.) It is not so important here wheather King was a Christian. It is important that we get peace. With terrorists on this Planet doing all kinds of ugly activities, we have to ask: - When is a sizeable nuclear bomb next on the Agenda ? You see these issues are being discussed in The United Nations, but there is not yet any real agreements on how to deal with this issue. Time is running. And we have to claim disarmament of nuclear weapons from all countries, not only Iraq. We will have to - as fast as reasonably possible to close all neclear plants on this globe. Only if we stick together there will be everlasting peace. I know, that Theosophy not really are doing in politics. But when it is about - Existence or non-Existence - I think Theosophy will have to make a stance, - and that loud and clear. These weapons are no good - and the sooner they are gone the better. I think, that the non-violent movement I had in mind in my previous email would be a movement like the one Martin Luther King Jr. supported, though probably with some important differences. * I should and ought to be world wide in its focus. * It should use a proper suited religous motivated agenda. * It should or could note and take in to consideration (i.e. only consideration) especially the principles and also the ideas which the organization United Religions Initiative are following today. (URI are here http://www.uri.org/ and http://www.uri.org/resources/, and is a interfaith religious body associated to United Nations. There a at least 800 Angelican Bishops supporting it, and both Buddhists and Hindus join in as well, now its representing more than 88 religions world wide.) * It should make marches like the civil rights movement Martin Luther King Jr. supported. Or even sit-down protests. * It should have a suitable orator or speaker. * Its agenda could take from the speeches of Martin Luther King Jr. when proper and when they have a global focus, which could be supported by people who wants peace, - so to thereby create agreement on that the leaders of today. * Its agenda could take from other great non-violent speeches of the past decades. * It should do what a lot of movement s today lacks, - namely it should relate much better to the TV-journalist around the globe, because they can help create peace if they want to. But let us also remember, that is not so much the weapons as such, which are a problem for humanity. It is just as important, what kinds of minds - this Planet are fostering and breathe - and also what kind of information kids today are given besides the school-education. (A voilent picture ?) Well, these are just my humble views. I know the above are not a complet list. But the genral picture should be there, and can be adjusted if needed to get peace in a non-voilent manner while usinng marches or sit-down protests. To communicate in small circles is of course a stance Adelaise. But really...Try to add the above picture ! Negativity is always a solution and a stance. Let the readers feel free to do their best. from M. Sufilight with patience...and the time running... ----- Original Message ----- From: "adelasie" To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:57 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Hi M. Sufilight, > > I seriously think that if each one of us tried honestly to put into > practice the principle teachings of Theosophy (or any great spiritual > tradition in history) in our daily lives, everything would change > completely. > > > Let us make a non-voilence movement - driven by the words of RELIGION > > ! I can see that NO --- non-voilence movement are as well known as for > > instance the Amnesty International is today. > > What if we chose daily to find what is good in others, instead of > pointing out what is wrong? What if we accepted others as they are, > instead of expecting them to be different? What if we just refused to > fight and argue? What if we put our own needs and desires second to > those of others? Wouldn't we be a non-violence movement in ourselves? > If we take seriously the teachings about the unity of all life, we > realize that everything we do affects the whole. What we do may seem > like a little thing, but the Master teaches us that there are no > little things. > > Adelasie > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 02:50:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 10:50:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 53492 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 10:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 10:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 10:50:53 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 924A8480940 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:50:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004801c28e26$758d6f60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <112.1a7d0ead.2b08158e@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:45:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all of you, Its quite allright Leon <:-) What I meant was: When you during the past half year or so - so many times mentiones your (so very) own book when emailing - and your own ABC theory, where you could have chosen a different path - of text or emailing - then I see a tendency. And that tendency is, that it seems to me, that you stick to much with your book and your ABC -theory - more than it is profitable for you and others. And there it is i get the "Salesman" view into my mind. Not that I think you support egoism or anything like that, but just this view i mentioned in the above. One could suggest, that you made a theory (i.e. maybe a book) on poetry or art or the like, so that you get another view than the so very very scientific one. Maybe a poetic version of your ABC theory ? Sometimes the author sticks to his creation - the book - like glue. And he is always out to defend it, whenever he is talking or emailing with others, - or at least he is alert on the issue. Well, if you get my drift. <:-) Of course one - maybe - will have to defend the book from time to time. It is just that I see a tendency, nothing else. Maybe I am the only one. I know I am a little personal here, but I really honestly mean well. And I think that, you Leon, have the stomach for it. I will also admit, that I am a little low on the scientific versions myself. But, that is probably because I think the world has had to much of this, and needs reason - i.e. PEACE and not more dangerous weapons created by science minds, who gets facinated more than they use their common sense. Especially HPB was very good at throwing "common sense" in her articles, where she had to explain the stupid scholars what Theosophy really was and is. Have I missed the point? from M. Sufilight with...the best whises...and peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . > Hi Sufilight and all of you > > With an equally friendly response, my answer to your questions are: > > No, I am not a "Capitalist." I do not believe in "labels, and do not > subscribe to any other *specific* form of ism (including Sufism, Buddhism, > Hinduism, Taoism, Christianism, Hebrewism, Communism, Fascism, Theosophism, > Scientism, Monism or Dualism, among others :-). And, since I have nothing to > sell, I am not a "salesman" (nor have I ever been). At the moment, my book is > free... Since, all you need to do to read it (at least in part) and find out > who I think I am -- since my "credentials" (which I'm sure B/BM didn't read > :-) speak for themselves -- is go to my web sites. You can also ask > questions about it and/or read my letters to the various scientific and > theosophical forums -- as I'm still writing my not so "secret doctrine," and > plan to use the theoretical discussions and answers I give in these forums as > parts of the manuscript. (As for my "theories" -- it's only historians and > proselytizers who think that what they say or believe are cut in stone > "facts." :-) > > I'm glad to see that you believe in spiritual uplifting. > > from > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/LHM.index.html > > ------------------ > In a message dated 11/14/02 11:51:51 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > >Hi Leon and all of you, > > > >A friendly email... > >I understand Leon, that you are a Salesman or a capitalist too, right ? > >So how much does your book really cost ? > > > >These questions are meant as a spiritual uplift! > >No answers are needed ! > > > >from > >M. Sufilgiht with a friendly smile... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:59 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . > > > > In a message dated 11/11/02 11:16:16 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: > > > > >Quoting from Dallas's post: > > > > > ><<"It is time Theosophy should enter the arena,." wrote > > >the Great Master in a letter in 1881 "For our doctrines to > > >practically react on the so-called moral code, or the ideas > > >of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have > > >to preach and popularize a knowledge of Theosophy." [T > > >A & N. p. 189.]>> > > > > > >"Popularize" in that context brought to mind Leon's > > >models, among other things. That is, I tend to agree with > > >Leon that, by scientizing certain aspects of Theosophy, > > >(by using a popular language of the age), one might reach > > >those for whom other kinds of introductions to > > >Theosophic issues might be far less applealing. > > > > That's right. > > > > >On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: > > > > > >((((Mauri, I shouldn't say anything in response to Leon, > > >who is not even here to defend himself. But I feel the > > >need to at least say the following: > > > > > ><< > >subtitled, "A Synthesis of Science, Religion and > > >Philosophy?" >>> > > > > > >My response to this question is: > > > > > >Science stands for intellectual knowledge > > >Religion stands for faith Philosophy stands for > > >experiential knowledge > > > > > >All three are necessary lest Theosophy "be nothing more > > >than another religious dogma destined to die on the > > >vine?" Emphasizing intellectual knowledge alone will kill > > >Theosophy in only a few generations. It is already doing > > >so, and Theosophy is today in its last gasp because of its > > >over-emphasis on intellectualism. The "head doctrine" is > > >intellectual knowledge, the "heart doctrine" is > > >experiential knowledge and the one will get us nowhere > > >without the other. >>>))))))) > > > > All I can say in response to this is; "All that goes without saying." > > > > But, if being a well rounded theosophist requires a balance of all three > > aspects -- I haven't found one single teacher (in more than 50 years of > > searching) who could show me (starting from my own position on the path > > and my own propensities for learning) the perfect way to understand and > > practice each direction in this modern age. So I was forced to learn the > > "head doctrine" from one teacher, the "heart doctrine" from another, and > > then had to find out for myself the rest of the "intellectual" and > "experiential" > > knowledge I needed to gain the "faith" that when I arrived at "self > > realization" or oneness with the Supreme Spirit, I would have the ability > > to carry out the Bodhisattva work without having to ask anyone else what > > there was to do or say to any person in accordance with his/her degree of > > understanding, his/her current state of consciousness, and his/her > > immediate psychological, emotional, physical and/or spiritual needs. > > But this wasn't all that difficult. > > > > Amazingly, I was lucky enough to find out about 30 years ago that all those > > separate teachers were speaking to me directly through HPB. All I had to > > do was hear them, study, concentrate, and follow their suggested paths of > > meditation (they offered me Patanjali and the Voice of the Silence to > > practice) -- while learning to supplement their teachings with the new > > knowledge of modern sciences and technologies (which governs our present > > lives) that HPB didn't have access to... And, as she advised me directly -- > > to "Write [my] own Secret Doctrine in the language of [my] age." So, after > > a few years of such study and meditation -- we were able to write, in one > > afternoom, the entire ABC theory and discourse (which, several years later > > was posted on my web site) -- and correlate it with all the head and heart > > doctrines of theosophy that are thoroughly explained in the original SD > > (with all its ancient scriptural references) and other writings of HPB and > the > > Masters. So, what more (at least for me) was there to know or continue to > > practice? > > > > Think about this! Isn't it amazing how HPB managed to teach the heart > > doctrine while expounding the head doctrine, and managed to teach the > > head doctrine while expounding the heart doctrine? It's also amazing to me > > that, outside of a few theosophical teachers I've come across at the United > > Lodge of Theosophists over the past 50 odd years, I haven't found another > > who could match HPB's ability to do that. And, even then, none of them had > > enough scientific knowledge to fulfill my need to get into dialogues with > > trained scientists in many disciplines, and make my case for theosophy in > > their own jargon. > > > > Thus, as it is now, we (whenever I need the right words to explain a subtle > > point, I ask HPB ;-) do not teach any one method -- since we can only > > answer questions in the same framework that they are asked. So, for the > > scientifically minded, we can lead them to the theosophical synthesis > > through their interest in scientific and technical understandings. For the > > philosophically minded, we lead them there through their interest in > thinking > > about the nature of things and their ontology's. For the religious minded, > > we can show them the proper path of meditative practices to awaken their > > inner understanding of the true nature of reality and their position in it. > > And for all of them, while we give them exactly what they ask for, we > > manage to show them the questions to ask themselves and, thereby, > > turn them toward whatever they are missing in the other directions of > > theosophical understanding and practice. > > > > >Leon wrote: < > >theosophy really is "more "realistically about"? >> > > > > > >As I see it, there would seem not to be any solution, or > > >"more realistic approach to Theosophy," that by-passes > > >anything that's relevant to a broader and lasting > > >understanding of Theosophy. In other words (?), > > >regardless of whichever doctrine or approach one might > > >be inclined to follow, if that approach is not wisely > > >enough balanced with aspects of intellect, faith, and > > >experience, the result might not be particularly > > >representative of "Theosophic progress" . . . I'm making > > >a "general comment," here, and not accusing anybody of > > >not being wise enough. We all seem to be "wise enough" > > >in our various "own ways," basically, often times, > > >but/"but" . . . > > > > Yes. But . . . What? Studying theosophy has nothing to do with results. > > One either needs to know, or not -- depending on where one stands on the > > road to enlightenment, and what the confusion is in one's mind. Wisdom is > > knowing what one needs to know or do. And that has to be left for > > individual choice. > > Each of us is on a different level of understanding and openness to new > > ideas. So, theosophy is as theosophy does. That's all there is to it. If > > you need the head doctrine to do better as a theosophist, then that is what > > you direct your questions and your studies toward. If you need to devote > > yourself to a higher power or principle, then that is the direction of your > > search. That's why it says in the Declaration of the United Lodge of > > Theosophists; "It regards as Theosophists all those in the true service of > > Humanity" ... And, "Welcomes . . . all those . . . who desire to fit > > themselves,by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach > > others" It's that "doing" (based on one's "knowing") that makes one a > > successful theosophist. And what we can learn intellectually > (scientifically > > and philosophically) and religiously practice -- is what we need in order to > > make that action the best we possibly can do at the level we are presently > > at. Progress comes from just that -- without having to think about > > attaining anything for oneself. > > > > Practically, positively and hopefully, > > LHM > > > > >Speculatively, > > >Mauri > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From mail@katinkahesselink.net Sun Nov 17 03:10:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 11:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 95613 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 11:10:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 11:10:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40303.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 11:10:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20021117111028.31448.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.241.103.89] by web40303.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:10:28 PST Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:10:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Subba Row Collected Writings To: "theosofie groep" , Universal Seekers , young theosophists , Schoolgate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Katinka Hesselink Reply-To: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723 X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink Hi all, The second (and last) volume of the "T. Subba Row Collected Writings" , Compiled and Annotated by Henk J. Spierenburg is finally out. There were some glitches along the way. One of which was the departure to another world of Emmett Small, but now its finally here. It contains material that has not been published before in eithter Tukaram Tatya's or Jinarajadasa's collections. Also included: an extensive bibliography and a large index. Really a must-have for serious students of Blavatsky and theosophy. Fascinating stuff. The books can be obtained from their publisher: Point Loma Publications, San Diego, and also from your nearest theosophical bookstore. The website of this publisher is: http://www.wisdomtraditions.com/ Katinka Hesselink ===== Katinka Hesselink ----------------------------- -Those who observe, learn, a whole life long. -Wie observeert, leert , een heel leven lang. ----------------------------- http://www.katinkahesselink.net From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 03:19:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 11:19:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 4675 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 11:19:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 11:19:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 11:19:38 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 67D9F47FFAF for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:19:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005201c28e2a$7a511520$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:14:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Brian and all of you, Thanks for the invitation Brian ! I have joined the group. from M. Sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:42 AM Subject: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. > Let's Dallas/Daniel C. Caldwell and any other Theosophists on this list > present there evidence the next few hours on : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the > world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental > teachings or not. > [CUT] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 03:25:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 11:25:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 87952 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 11:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 11:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 11:25:06 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D6B0480AAA for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:25:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005801c28e2b$3ddc9780$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <8.2fefd9f6.2b08956a@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:19:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Leon and all of you, Thanks Leon ! Noted and added. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:47 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World "Outdated Theosophical propaganda material"?? > All those books, like most religions, are based on the fundamental teachings > of theosophy... And, as HPB pointed out in her numerous references to many of > them, they can be considered as valid parts of the overall teachings -- since > their conclusions all result in the same ethics and morals, as well as, in > some cases, confirm various aspects of theosophical metaphysics. > > In the ULT, I understand that reading such books is highly recommended. > Especially, the Bhagavad Gita, Lao Tse, etc. -- that are even sold at their > book tables -- with most of the others located in their library for public > reading or study. A number of these books were also referred to in the SD as > well as in HPB's other writings. They are all, therefore, grist for the mill > for most serious students of theosophy. In fact, I remember a theosophical > study class many years ago where we analyzed the references to theosophical > ideas in Shakespeare's plays. So, you might as well add to your list, > Dosteovsy and Plato, along with many other ancient and modern writers with a > spiritual bent. Its also nice to see how all such authors use theosophical > ideas in their stories and poems. > > As far as most students I know in America, there are no forbidden books, > although William Judge says that if you want to find out everything there is > to know about theosophy, you could limit your study to only three books -- > one of which is the Secret Doctrine, and the other two, either the Bhagavad > Gita and Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms or, the Tao Te Ching and The Dammapada. > > LHM > > In a message dated 11/14/02 1:58:10 PM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > >Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > >I have to ask to clarify: > >But Daniel is Theosophy really ONLY that MUCH about scriptures from HPB, > >W.Q. Judge, etc...? > >Does books like The Upanishads, The New Testament, The Quran, The Bhagavad > >Gita, etc... and books like those from Ibn Arabi, Jalal-Uddin Rumi, Saadi > >Shiraz etc... or Geoffrey Higgins, Idries Shah, Doctor Maximus (>:-)), > >Sir > >Francis Bacon, Shakespeare, etc... and books like those from T. D. Suzuki, > >Lao Tze etc... NOT have any theosophical value ??? Are there important > >difference between the latter books and the former , and what are they > >if > >any ? > > > >Try for instance: www.sirbacon.org > > > > > >from > >M. Sufilight with a very excited look in his head... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 17 03:53:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 11:53:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 57397 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 11:53:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 11:53:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 11:53:15 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id EC4F948013E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:53:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006201c28e2f$2cf424c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <159.179985f9.2b08b6b5@cs.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:47:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi John and all of you, Laughs. So you have maybe never heard from the famous "duck" at Freiburg ? It is romoured, that its astral-body has been seen near the Graveyards there. (You see: The duck "quacked" some minutes before Freiburg by mistake at the end of the WWII was bombed. The duck had the skill, that it heard the bombers every time they were coming in good time in advance, --- and then it quacked. And a lot of the citizens at Freiburg was rescued by it. There is today a statue of the duck in the Freiburg park-area. And not every mayor has such ! The duck it self, you see, eager to help got hit by a bomb it self.) And it is a true story. Maybe that could teach that animals has ESP ? from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon > Hmmm, > Maybe this explains why I sometimes hear flocks of Ducks Quacking or > quarking? > And looking around no Ducks are to be found! Lol > > For Humours sake, > John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 05:52:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 13:52:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 36100 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 13:52:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 13:52:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 13:52:17 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.45.202fa69d (4584) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:52:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45.202fa69d.2b08f90f@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:52:15 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Morten, No, I had not heard of the Freiberg Duck but it is a neat story. Sounds like the Duck had previous exposure and adopted a survival adaption symbiotic to people. Sorry to hear the poor creature was a casaulty of the War, it truly deserves a Medal and Plaque. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 17 06:09:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 83416 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 14:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 14:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 14:09:06 -0000 Received: from pool0276.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.21] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DQ6d-0001dC-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:09:00 -0800 To: "dlux" Cc: "AA-Carson" , "AA-Larry-Kolts" Subject: RE: blavatsky net study. Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:05:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004001c28e3a$fa57ca60$47864cca@briory> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nov 17 2002 Re Resubscribing to blavatsky.net Dear dlux: I have no idea what their problems are. Of course I am concerned so I am forwarding your note to Carson and to Larry to take care of. Sometime ago I also had difficulty. I was involuntarily UNSUBSCRIBED. I went back t blavatsky.net and re-subscribed. Also I notified Carson and Larry. Since then I receive the service regularly. Here are their addresses so you can write direct to them also. I think it is a great idea that so many who are interested in Theosophy are getting together and sharing ideas and asking questions we all profit from the cooperation. It is brotherhood in action, I think. Best wishes, Dallas ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: dlux [mailto:dlux@ezweb.com.au] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 5:12 AM To: dalval14@earthlink.net Subject: blavatsky net study. hullo Dallas I will be brief. I was registered as a daily receiver of bn-study up until june when I changed my email address. I have attempted to sign up again many times without 'luck'. I also used a different name as was told that all was in order but still 'nothing'. Some others are also not receiving mail as they did before. I have sent mail to many address, including lyris (for which I received a standard reply) but the black hole appears to be devouring all matter sent into the 'airways' Any advice welcome kind regards dlux [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 17 06:09:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 7868 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 14:09:07 -0000 Received: from pool0276.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.21] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DQ6j-0001dC-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:09:06 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Vol. 2 of Subba Row Collected Writings Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:05:26 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20021117111028.31448.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 17 2002 Re Vol 2 of Subba Row's ESOTERIC WRITINGS -- just issued Many thanks Katinka: Haven't heard from you for long. Best wishes of November. 17th Dal ============================= -----Original Message----- From: Katinka Hesselink [mailto:mail@katinkahesselink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 3:10 AM To: theosofie groep; Universal Seekers; young theosophists; Schoolgate Subject: Theos-World Subba Row Collected Writings Hi all, The second (and last) volume of the "T. Subba Row Collected Writings" , Compiled and Annotated by Henk J. Spierenburg is finally out. There were some glitches along the way. One of which was the departure to another world of Emmett Small, but now its finally here. It contains material that has not been published before in eithter Tukaram Tatya's or Jinarajadasa's collections. Also included: an extensive bibliography and a large index. Really a must-have for serious students of Blavatsky and theosophy. Fascinating stuff. The books can be obtained from their publisher: Point Loma Publications, San Diego, and also from your nearest theosophical bookstore. The website of this publisher is: http://www.wisdomtraditions.com/ Katinka Hesselink ===== Katinka Hesselink ----------------------------- -Those who observe, learn, a whole life long. -Wie observeert, leert , een heel leven lang. ----------------------------- http://www.katinkahesselink.net Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Nov 17 07:20:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 15:20:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 26140 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 15:20:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 15:20:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 15:20:17 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.f4.24dd671e (4312) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:20:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:20:08 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'wh... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very enlightened beings bring this(below) into the world. FIRE Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT. The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that he brought not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war. What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder? BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything , good , bad or indifferent , in its entirety. Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you think?).Despondency must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get out of it. I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or enjoy all in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The coinage of the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine Nature) This former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin. This FIRE is very potent, one might think. And so it is. Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE, don't you think. So, then , what happens next? A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student. How delicious, after that "roasting". Ahhhhhh. PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us. ======================================================== In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhakti.eohn@verizon.net writes: > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as > in 'white' race. " > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > Reply-to: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL, > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME INTERPRETED > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' AS > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE TARA'. > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED ANTI- > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY IMPRESSIVE > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN FACT, IN > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL POST > THAT NOTE HERE. > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS FROM A > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST AND > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT IS > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE AND > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU WHO > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING FOR > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. BOTH > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE WANTED > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND CONTINUES > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE WILL > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM HUMANITY'S > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS WORLD > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, THAT > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THIS > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A PROFOUNDLY > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. I AM > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER-MINDED > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED LOOSE > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS AND > SETTLE THERE. > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF IDEAS > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN THOSE > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE CONTEXT OF > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. > > Whether they are > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) makes > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races idea > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > > literatures means 'white race.'" > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / ARYAN > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY NAME > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), > HARA (SHIVA), > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS > HELI OF THE HELLENES > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) > SOLE OF THE ROMANS > ETC. > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW ELYM, > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, ETC., > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF-FROM > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > > > Quoted from: > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references to > HPB's > > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood or > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does she > > use these terms? > > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE under > > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > http://hpb.cc > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > > > adept astronomers of II 699 > > adepts I vii; II 495 > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > > Arabs are later II 200 > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > > Atlanteans taught II 426 > > born in the north II 768 > > branches of II 106 > > bull symbolizes II 533 > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > > Carlyle q on II 470 > > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > > common religion before separation I xxix > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > > decimal system I 360-2 > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > > dvijas II 469 > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > > era, figures given II 68n > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > > height of, after third subrace II 753 > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > > Kabbala came fr I 376 > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > > languages II 199-200 &nn > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > > many colors of II 249-50 > > migrated to India II 609 > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > > Rama first divine king of II 495 > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 &n > > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 08:07:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 16:07:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 54903 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 16:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 16:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 16:07:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 16:07:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:07:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Brian: a listing of the references on the requested subject Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1523 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you wrote: "If you want to receive a response lets start with you listing all references (easy to do because there is an on-line search engine for that , except if I do it you will say its wrong) to 'Aryan 5th + 6th root race' in the Mahatma letters plus Aryan in general. If I herewith would send it you probably would say it is incomplete, so lets start with you sending it." Okay, Brian, BELOW are a listing of the references in the Mahatma Letters to what you requested above. I hope this helps you in your study and I look forward to your serious response to the other postings I have made in the last 2 days. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 81 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-81.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 4 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-4.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 23b http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 91b http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-91b.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 8 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-8.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 59 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-59.htm The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 15 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-15.htm Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett - Letter 1 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-1.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 08:17:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 16:17:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 20666 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 16:17:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:17:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Brian: your other request Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 968 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian, you wrote: "Sure I will answer all your questions as soon you send a list of the quotes from The Mahatma letters about 'last sub-race of the fifth' and about 'elder brothers. I could do that to, but if you yourself do it you wont say its all wrong, so I like to leave it at that and wait before proceeding for that first." Brian, I have looked up "last sub-race of the fifth" using the ML search engine and have found that phrase only in ML-23b which can be read at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm There is another reference to that particular sub-race in the same ML- 23b. As far as "elder brothers", I have already answered that question in my post at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8831 I do not find "elder brothers" by using the search engine on the MLs. Again I hope this helps and that you will now address my postings of the last 2 days. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 10:10:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 88806 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:10:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian's unfortunate misunderstanding of Coleman's plagiarism charge against HPB Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6814 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian's unfortunate misunderstanding of Coleman's plagiarism charge against HPB Brian, Apparently in response to part of what I said in the following posting: Brian's Argument concerning HPB's comments on "Aryans" in ISIS UNVEILED http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8827 you replied: "Forget Isis and the SD, where [sic] even Daniel C. [sic] Caldwell will admit it is full of quotes from other books without reference, meaning there is NO WAY we know if watever in there (any quotes from Isis or SD) posted on theos-talk, was ideed written by Blavatsky (lets stand any Mahatmas.., or was copied from another readely available book." Brian, again I repeat that you apparently do NOT understand William Emmette Coleman's contention about HPB's plagiarism. John Patrick Deveney, the Theosophical historian, in the latest issue (Oct. 2002) of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, writes about Coleman's claim against H.P. Blavatsky. Deveney writes: "His claim was that, while the learned QUOTATIONS from classical and other sources in H.P.B.'s books would lead the reader to believe she had read some 5,000 authors, in fact all of her references could be found in approximately 100 easily available, second-hand sources. This, Coleman, thundered, was plagiarism." Caps added (Theosophical History, Oct. 2002, p. 272.) Deveney's explanation here is indeed correct because Coleman himself confirms it. To cite just one of many examples, Coleman writes: "By careful analysis I found that in compiling Isis about 100 books were used. About 1400 books are QUOTED from and REFERRED to in this work; but, from the 100 books which its author possessed, she copied everything in Isis taken from and relating to the other 1300. There are in Isis about 2100 QUOTATIONS from and references to books that were copied, at second-hand, from books other than the originals; and of this number only about 140 are credited to the books from which Madame Blavatsky copied them at second-hand." caps added. A CAREFUL reading of Coleman confirms Deveney's recent observations. Coleman, for example, writes: "Not a line of the QUOTATIONS in Isis, from the old-time mystics, Paracelsus, Van Helmont, Cardan, Robert Fludd, Philalethes, Gaffarel, and others, was taken from the original works; the whole of them were copied from other books containing scattered QUOTATIONS from those writers." caps added. To be more specific, Brian, if you find a QUOTATION from Paracelsus in ISIS UNVEILED Coleman is contending that HPB did NOT go to the original works of Paracelsus to get Parcelsus' words. Instead she found the quotation (i.e, the words of Paracelsus plus the quotation marks) in a secondary work where that author had given the quote from Paracelsus. HPB then took the Paracelsus QUOTATION found in this secondary work and incorporated the QUOTATION into her book or article. Many times she did not indicate that the quotation was taken from the secondary work. Coleman confirms this over and over. Witness another example from Coleman: "The same thing obtains with her QUOTATIONS from Josephus, Philo, and the Church Fathers, as Justin Martyr, Origen, Clement, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius, and all the rest. The same holds good with the classical authors, - Homer, Ovid, Horace, Virgil, Plato, Pliny, and many others. The QUOTATIONS from all these were copied at second-hand from some of the 100 books which were used by the compiler of Isis." caps added. Coleman says that HPB did the same when she was writing THE SECRET DOCTRINE and her other works. To repeat Deveney again: "This, Coleman thundered, was plagiarism." Brian, now let us explore something else very much related to the above. ISIS UNVEILED was published in 1877. So Madame Blavatsky's "plagiarism" [as Coleman called it]was done even prior to that date of publication. YET notice the following which happened in 1881. The scholar Deveney writes: " In the spring and summer of 1881, however, when he himself was accused of plagiarism [by W.H. Burr], Coleman's definition [of plagiarism] was RATHER DIFFERENT." !! caps added. Deveney quotes Coleman's rebuttal to W.H. Burr's charges of plagiarisms. Brian, please read very carefully Coleman's rebuttal words. Coleman wrote: "Even were I guilty of what he [Burr] charges, it would not be plagiarism. To quote extracts from other authors found in Mr. B [urr]'s work is not plagiarism but to use Mr. Burr's own language or ideas, without credit, is plagiarist. This I have not done, and Mr. B. knows it." A little latter in the same piece, Coleman makes a very SIGNIFICANT statement and admission: "It is ridiculously absurd to call it plagiarism to use quotations from other writers, taken second-hand. All writers do it more or less, Mr. Burr [himself] very largely, and no one else ever called it plagiarism before." Coleman's 1881 statements are given in Deveney's article. I should point out here that by Coleman's 1881 STANDARD HPB was NOT guilty of plagiarism in her 1877 work ISIS. His 1881 standard was apparently made in defending himself against the charge of plagiarism. It was only in later years that Coleman apparently changed his definition of plagiarism and started "thundering" the charge against HPB! Another point. Brian, there are apparently a few misunderstandings on your part contained in what you wrote below: "Forget Isis and the SD, where [sic] even Daniel C. [sic] Caldwell will admit it is full of quotes from other books without reference, meaning there is NO WAY we know if watever in there (any quotes from Isis or SD) posted on theos-talk, was ideed written by Blavatsky (lets stand any Mahatmas.., or was copied from another readely available book." Brian, you apparently contend there is "NO WAY" to know if the extracts I quoted from ISIS UNVEILED were indeed "written by Blavatsky" OR was "copied from another readely [sic] available book." First, I ask you and other interested readers to refresh your memory of what I quoted from HPB in ISIS on the aryan subject. See the relevant extracts in this Theos-World posting: "HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word 'Aryan' and the 'Aryans'" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8742 NO WAY, you say? But there is A WAY to know! Coleman has given an exhaustive list of the "readily available books" he said HPB used in ISIS. You and anyone else can therefore go and compare those sources with the extracts from ISIS. So there is A WAY. Much more could be said about what you have written on this specific subject, but I will wait until you address in a "serious" and "scholarly" fashion the above points. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 10:48:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 74657 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:48:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Le Mesnevi, Mathnawi, and Mevlevi Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3747 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" =20 wrote: "Not only did Rumi derive his grasp of mysticism and metaphysics from=20 his father, but his writing markedly resemble those of Baha al-Din.=20 The writer Afzal Iqbal jokingly notes that there are enough=20 similarities between Baha al-Din's Ma'aref and Rumi's Mathnawi to=20 justify charges of plaigiarism=85Shams of Tabriz=85later forbid Rumi from=20 reading the Ma'aref for fear that Rumi's individuality would not=20 develop."=20=20 RUMI A Spiritual Biography by Leslie Wines What are some of the ways that Sufism resembles monasticism? I have=20 listed them rather than quoting the ways to point out a few.=20 1. well-ordered lives 2. custom bound 3. ceremonies of initiation 4. bestowal of a cloak (was it woolen?) 5. levels of spirituality (hierarchy) 6. Rules governing the `monastic' order 7. rules regarding diet, such as fasting and eating 8. rules for alms begging 9. rules of behavior towards one another 10. rules for control of selfish impulses 11. codes of conduct which tell how to enjoy the music which is=20=20 used for dervish dancing Rumi is considered the founder, but not really, of the whirling=20 dervishes. He did not found anything, but those who saw him go into=20 ecstasy when he heard certain "SOUNDS" from instrumental works and=20 begin to dance slowly and to whirl about, simply began to imitate=20 him. He was thus the inspiration of the whirling dervishes and not=20 the founder per se. While many of the above may jibe with the writings of the Koran, some=20 of it does not: like the music and dancing. And Shams Tabriz always=20 enjoined and tested Rumi to see that he was following the teachings=20 of Islam and The Prophet and not just his intellect. They did not=20 abide by Aristotelian logic, at least not politically or publicly.=20 But then again the Catholics say that they too do not follow the=20 writings and teachings of Roman and Greek religions but it is the=20 basis of the rules of the monastic orders and the Bible and=20 Christianity. It is gnosticism gone bad you might say. >From Rumi's work we have: "Le Mesnevi-- 150 contes soufis" (Albin=20 Michel'sFrench version) is about communion with God. There are 6=20 volumes I believe, which I do not possess, but these 150 stories are=20 taken from his work. His relationship and love for Shams is=20 understood as that of love of master and disciple and it indeeds=20 transcends explanation. It is not seen in the least by Islamic world=20 as a relationship which is based on erotic behavior. But Rumi is=20 believed to have used metaphors which elicit his God-intoxication and=20 many were very explicit and sexual in nature. I have at hand my own=20 copy of "Le Mesnevi" which was given to me by my French host while I=20 was living in Paris. And the stuff in it would make anyone blush=97it=20 has some heavy duty sexual allusions. I have no way of knowing what=20 was applied or inspired by Shams, but some of it is downright weird=20 because he describes what almost sounds like sexual practices. Now=20 the explanation for all of this talk is that "=85Islamic mind=85has no=20 necessary divisions between the secular and spiritual realms, or=20 between man and God." Naturally his poetry is powerful and beautiful: My soul wants to fly away when your presence calls it so sweetly. My soul wants to take flight when you whisper, "Arise" A fish wants to dive from dry land into the ocean, when it hears The drum beating "Return." A Sufi, shimmering with light, wants to dance like a sunbeam When darkness summons him. =20=20 Translation by Jonathan Star. The writings here can be easily understood in terms of mystical=20 transport. But I guess he did a little dance before he left home. Netemara --- End forwarded message --- From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 11:17:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 19:17:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 76772 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 19:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 19:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 19:17:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 19:17:33 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:17:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: What about Brown? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 203 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 from "Damodar and the Pioneers" "W.T. Brown left India...writing the story of his life, he again went to the U.S.A...." Does anyone have a lead on how to get ahold of this autobiography? Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 11:27:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 19:27:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 93644 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 19:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 19:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 19:27:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 19:27:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:27:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Subba Row and Leadbeater Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1719 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 "Subba Row did have a group of pupils or personal friends who as the 'chosen few' were given private instruction. Among them were Dr. S. Subramania Iyer, [and] C. W. Leadbeater..." "Damodar and the Pioneers of the TS." Now was Row somewhat of a sexist I ask you? I mean HPB begged him, pleaded with him to help her with the SD and proofs and the like because the man had a fabulous mind and a great deal of occult knowledge, but he refused. He did however have a cadre of gentlemen around him to whom he spoke in great detail about all things esoteric. I still have a fondness for Row but he ended up dying of something that seemed like supression of something. And to Olcott's credit he tried to help ease the man's death, to little avail. But why did he so unceremoniously turn down helping one of the greatest occultist who ever lived? How much influence did Row's writings have on CWL? I am somewhat, was, in my youth itinerant and lost a few books here and there and my ex stole some of my Theosophy books, because I had at least two of CWL's books and now have none. I have yet to replace them, but I do not remember how his writings were influenced except that they seemed to be of an astral nature, much like what Besant wrote. Although I think she had a little more spirituality to her titles. But anyone have any knowledge or understanding of how Row's group might have influenced CWL. Especially in light of the fact that CWL was not an intimate of HPB. And BTW Leadbeater is said to have not wanted to be in the company of women (Peter Washington) and would only let Annie touch him. Maybe that accounts for him not being in HPB's presence...did he not want to be there? Netemara From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 11:30:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 19:30:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 20629 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 19:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 19:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 19:30:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 19:30:55 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:30:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Henk J. Spierenburg's Biographical Sketch of T. Subba Row Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1226 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Henk J. Spierenburg's Biographical Sketch of T. Subba Row can now be found at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/subba.htm The above info and the following material is provided courtesy of Dr. Spierenburg. T. Subba Row Collected Writings, Volume I, compiled by Henk J. Spierenburg, Point Loma Publications, Inc., San Diego 2001, Library of Congress Card Number 2001-132432, ISBN 1-889598-30-5, pp. xxiv, 264, USD 18,50, EUR 24,96 T. Subba Row Collected Writings, Volume II, compiled by Henk J. Spierenburg, Point Loma Publications, Inc., San Diego 2002, Library of Congress Card Number 2001-132432, ISBN 1-889598-31-3, pp. x, 265-654, USD 18,50, EUR 24,96 The compiler has identified, with a few exceptions, all Subba Row's Sanskrit and other sources. The first volume contains an extensive biography (pp. xv-xxiv) and a never before published portrait (p. xiv) of Subba Row. The two volumes contain many pages of material not included in earlier compilations (pp. 44-47, 97-108, 174-184, 265- 314, 353-355) and 1.026 footnotes from the compiler. There is a bibliography in the second volume (pp. 597-609) with 229 titles and an Index of 44 pages with about 2.600 words and notions. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 11:36:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 19:36:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 7164 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 19:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 19:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 19:36:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 19:36:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:36:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Statement by C.W. Leadbeater concerning what T. Subba Row said about Blavatsky Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021117111028.31448.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3490 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Statement by C.W. Leadbeater concerning what T. Subba Row said about Blavatsky "June 14th, 1885: Subba Row related to us recently more concerning Madame's remarkable complex character than I, at least, had previously known; and it shows us plainly how foolish it would be to blame her for what in anyone else would be called a want of common moral qualities. We were right in believing that the original H. P. Blavatsky, who was by nature clairvoyant and who had some knowledge of occultism, disappeared from earth life some twenty years ago, and that a certain Adept, who in some way had failed to reach his goal, voluntarily took possession of her body, or was placed there --- partly as a punishment, in order to do all in his power to promulgate the truth through her. We likewise understood rightly that when engaged on other business he was frequently absent from this body. But now I come to a point about which I was completely in error. I thought that during the absence of the Adept, the body was in a state similar to that of Margrave in Bulwer Lytton's "Strange Story," only animated by its original lower constituents. But it seems this was not the case. At her death, all the usual constituents of the body left it as with that of others, and the present inhabitant had to supply the whole want from his own organisation. For this purpose two Chelas, but little versed in occultism, were selected to take the Adept's place when necessary; and as no Adept or Chela can enter into a woman's body during times of illness, at such times it had to be taken possession of by a terrible ill-tempered, ignorant old Tibet woman, in place of the Adept or Chelas, as she was the only female available for this purpose. It seems that when either of the four replaced one of the others, he or she had no idea of what had been said or done by the predecessor, and thus endless confusion occurred. This explains the fact that Madame so often contradicts what she had said a few hours previously, which fact naturally greatly excited Hodgson's suspicions. It likewise accounts for the fact that sometimes she seems to know less about occultism than we ourselves do, while at others she speaks with the power and authority of a Rishi. For months together, in consequence of her various illnesses, the terrible old woman alone has inhabited her almost all the time, and all around her have suffered from her ill-temper. Still the Adept maintains his connection, in the hope, as we think, to be able to complete his promulgation of the "secret doctrine" through her. Whether this poor diseased body will hold together long enough for this purpose no one at present can predict. Of course this true explanation is useless for outsiders. But I think I can give even to them a satisfactory explanation of Madame's contradictions without attributing intentional untruth to her, when I inform them that, as a Russian, she was prone to exaggeration, coupled with an unretentive memory and an excitable style of speaking; and especially when we consider that English is not her mother tongue --- [Olcott boasts of her that her English is classic --- Professor Sellin] --- and therefore she often makes mistakes. Poor old lady! her life has truly been a wonderful one, and who can say what will still come of it!" Leadbeater's statement quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/anoncomplex.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 11:38:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 19:38:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 68630 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 19:38:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 19:38:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 19:38:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 19:38:08 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:38:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'wh... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 11762 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB: I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got the books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From other African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and the like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not deter US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew up on it ever since. I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a reason, as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read on into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work 100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding. Netemara **************** -- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very enlightened beings > bring this(below) into the world. > FIRE > Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT. > The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that he brought > not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war. > What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder? > BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything , good , bad > or indifferent , in its entirety. > Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you think?).Despondency > must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get out of it. > I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or enjoy all > in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The coinage of > the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine Nature) This > former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin. > This FIRE is very potent, one might think. > And so it is. > Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE, don't you > think. > So, then , what happens next? > A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student. > How delicious, after that "roasting". > Ahhhhhh. > PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us. > ======================================================== > > In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as > > in 'white' race. " > > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > Reply-to: > theos-talk@y... > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL, > > > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. > > > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME INTERPRETED > > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' AS > > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE TARA'. > > > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK > > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS > > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. > > > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF > > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY > > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE > > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED ANTI- > > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY IMPRESSIVE > > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN FACT, IN > > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST > > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL POST > > THAT NOTE HERE. > > > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS > > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS FROM A > > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST AND > > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT IS > > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE AND > > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU WHO > > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING FOR > > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. BOTH > > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE WANTED > > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! > > > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND CONTINUES > > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE WILL > > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. > > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM HUMANITY'S > > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE > > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS WORLD > > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, THAT > > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THIS > > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT > > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A PROFOUNDLY > > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY > > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. I AM > > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER- MINDED > > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI > > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED LOOSE > > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS AND > > SETTLE THERE. > > > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF IDEAS > > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN THOSE > > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > > > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the > > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? > > > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE CONTEXT OF > > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. > > > > Whether they are > > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended > > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) makes > > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races idea > > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > > > literatures means 'white race.'" > > > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / ARYAN > > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY NAME > > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), > > HARA (SHIVA), > > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), > > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), > > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), > > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, > > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, > > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS > > HELI OF THE HELLENES > > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) > > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) > > SOLE OF THE ROMANS > > ETC. > > > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR > > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW ELYM, > > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, ETC., > > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF- FROM > > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. > > > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. > > > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > > > > > Quoted from: > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references to > > HPB's > > > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > > > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood or > > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does she > > > use these terms? > > > > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE under > > > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > > > > > adept astronomers of II 699 > > > adepts I vii; II 495 > > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > > > Arabs are later II 200 > > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > > > Atlanteans taught II 426 > > > born in the north II 768 > > > branches of II 106 > > > bull symbolizes II 533 > > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > > > Carlyle q on II 470 > > > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > > > common religion before separation I xxix > > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > > > decimal system I 360-2 > > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > > > dvijas II 469 > > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > > > era, figures given II 68n > > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > > > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > > > height of, after third subrace II 753 > > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > > > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > > > Kabbala came fr I 376 > > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > > > languages II 199-200 &nn > > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > > > many colors of II 249-50 > > > migrated to India II 609 > > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > > > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > > > Rama first divine king of II 495 > > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 &n > > > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > > > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 12:12:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 20:12:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 87099 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 20:12:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 20:12:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 20:12:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 20:12:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:11:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: HPB's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY online as a separate publication Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 618 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I've updated my "Online Writings of H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas" page to include HPB's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY online as a separate publication. The United Lodge of Theosophists in Phoenix, Arizona, USA has labored to put the book online on their own website. On my "Online Writings" page I have added easy alphabetical access to the Glossary. Click on the letter and entries for that letter will be accessed. It takes several seconds for the appropriate entries to appear. See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbwritings.htm#theosophicalglossary Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 12:21:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 20:21:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 67173 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 20:21:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 20:21:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 20:21:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 20:21:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:21:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Arya" in Blavatsky's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 542 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell H.P. Blavatsky writes in THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY: "=C2rya (Sk.) Lit., 'the holy'; originally the title of Rishis, those=20 who had mastered the '=C2ryasaty=E2ni' (q.v.)and entered the =C2ryanim=E2rga=20 path to Nirv=E2na or Moksha, the great 'four-fold' path. But now the=20 name has become the epithet of a race, and our Orientalists,=20 depriving the Hindu Brahmans of their birth-right, have made Aryans=20 of all Europeans. . . ." Quoted from: http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Aglossary.htm#a Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From llkingston2@juno.com Sun Nov 17 12:44:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 20:44:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 36777 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 20:44:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 20:44:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 20:44:40 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUM+ii9H34A7qQOf5I11GVJ3Q=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HHUJYL8T; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:44:21 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:34:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: blavatsky net study. Message-ID: <20021117.153409.-826627.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,6-82 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Dear Dallas, I got this forward and have contacted the person. Hopely he'll be back with us shortly. Why was this routed through Theos-world instead of through BN-study or to me direct? Lucky I follow the treads of Theos-world even if don't get involved that often. Larry On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:05:20 -0800 writes: > Nov 17 2002 > > Re Resubscribing to blavatsky.net > > > Dear dlux: > > I have no idea what their problems are. Of course I am concerned > so I am forwarding your note to Carson and to Larry to take care > of. > > Sometime ago I also had difficulty. I was involuntarily > UNSUBSCRIBED. > > I went back t blavatsky.net and re-subscribed. Also I notified > Carson and Larry. > > Since then I receive the service regularly. > > Here are their addresses so you can write direct to them also. > > I think it is a great idea that so many who are interested in > Theosophy are getting together and sharing ideas and asking > questions we all profit from the cooperation. It is brotherhood > in action, I think. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ====================================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: dlux [mailto:dlux@ezweb.com.au] > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 5:12 AM > To: dalval14@earthlink.net > Subject: blavatsky net study. > > > hullo Dallas > > I will be brief. I was registered as a daily receiver of bn-study > up until june when I changed my email address. > > > I have attempted to sign up again many times without 'luck'. I > also used a different name as was told that all was in order but > still 'nothing'. > > Some others are also not receiving mail as they did before. > > I have sent mail to many address, including lyris (for which I > received a standard reply) but the black hole appears to be > devouring all matter sent into the 'airways' > > Any advice welcome > > kind regards > > dlux > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sun Nov 17 13:23:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 21:23:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 6043 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 21:23:57 -0000 Received: from 1cust118.tnt35.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.219.66.118] helo=u7k5a4) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DWtY-00031s-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:23:56 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c28e7f$a10befa0$7642db43@u7k5a4> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:37:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Frankly, I think that the solution would be indirect bribery. For > > example, the schools Col. Olcott founded in India are a good model; > very > > high quality schools, so high quality that parents would be willing > to > > give up their intolerance so their children can attend. Corporations > > giving good jobs at good salaries, but any religious infighting will > > result in termination. Give the people positive rather than negative > > incentive to get along with each other. > > I don't know if you realize it or not, but you just put what I have > been saying all along in your own words. > And for me as well. Dennis From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sun Nov 17 13:24:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 21:24:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 73674 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 21:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 21:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 21:24:01 -0000 Received: from 1cust118.tnt35.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.219.66.118] helo=u7k5a4) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DWtb-00031s-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:24:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c28e7f$a2fa5220$7642db43@u7k5a4> To: References: <88.2113fbad.2b069c2c@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:16:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Most Browsers have a list of rules that govern the incoming mail, sorting them into different "folders" if you want it that way. In the old lists before the Internet, these were called "Twit Filters". Now you can set up a folder in the browser and name it "Bree", or "Brian", and have all the incoming mail from one or more names immediately transferred to that folder, where you can read it later, or Much later, or Not at all, and leave the main "Inbox" to contain those writers who seriously discuss that topic that you wish to discuss. You need never see the disruptive writings, although you may see the replies by others to the initial disruptive discussions. My name is quite probably in that catagory in the browser of one or more subscribers to the list. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: Theos-World How do I get off this mailing list? > I have been looking for an area to discuss Theosophy, this is obviously not > it. Most of the postings discuss theosophists and the petty issues From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 17 14:40:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 22:40:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 99006 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 22:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 22:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 22:40:08 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-32.look.ca ([216.154.45.127] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18DY5C-0004aL-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:40:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3DD81B00.9A0338DC@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:41:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re to Leon/Dallas . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn The complete original of the following post is on Theos-1, Nov 16 In the Theos-1 version of this post I asked Gerald: could you kindly please update me, Gerald, if you have changed your mind and prefer not to be quoted in some ways, places? He responded with: <> On Theos-1, Somebody wrote: <<< >>> (I don't have Somebody's permission to quote) Gerald responded: <<. . . this experiment was done many years ago with photons (which are chargless, not protons which have a positive charge). It was discovered that with a single hole, the photons acted like particles and produced a single dot on the plate. But with two holes, the photons acted like a wave and produced a wave pattern on the plate. The big question that has not yet been answered is, How do the photons know in advance whether there will be one hole or two, and how can a photon be both a particle and a wave? This is the quantum expression of the basic duality of matter. The standard answer from the Quantum experts is "Matter behaves differently according to how it is observed." Somebody: <<< >>> Gerald: <> <<<< >>>> Gerald:<<>>>>. ================ I'm wondering whether/how "Leon, Dallas, etc" (or "some ULT'ers," say, as per possible tendencies to hypothesize along those lines, words . . . ^:-) . . . ?) might interpret those kinds of concepts (as per that quote from Gerald) in terms of such as esoteric/exoteric, dualistic/non-dualistic . . . ((Those quotes and dots were kind of meant to suggest, "I seem to think," that in my attempts to sort of round things off---ie, without getting too too silly along the way, maybe ^:-)--- and in my attempts to make things somewhat more nicer and presentable, maybe---and "more understandable," as well, say, even . . . [if possibly at the expense of cutting off some corners, or somebody's corners . . .] . . . BUT (not to mention: but/"but") since, as I tend to see it, there are "corners" and "important corners" out there, apparently, well . . . {ie, seeing as "exoteric/esoteric"---if seen rather selectively/exclusively---?/"?"---in the linear/logical dualistic terms of "important/more important"---might present some apparent complications---even confusions, in some quarters, maybe?--- as possibly from the direction of such as "Leon/Dallas, etc", say, as per numerous past instances on these lists [[or "is it just me"?]]. . . well . . . so . . . ^:-) . . . what can I say . . . })) Speculatively, Mauri PS In Leon's case, what with his beard, hat, and . . . well, it occurred to me that if he ever gets stumped, he might come across something like : <^\:-|> . . . maybe . .. ? But for all I know he might be left handed, among other things PPS Hey, Gerald, mind if I post this post on Theos Talk, because I think you used what Leon might call "the laguage of this age," and I'm wondering how/whether "Leon, Dallas, etc" (or "some ULT'ers," say, as per possible tendencies to hypothesize along those kinds of lines or words . . . ^:-) . . . ?) might interpret those types of concepts (as per that quote from Gerald) in terms of such as esoteric/exoteric, dualistic/non-dualistic . . . ((Those quotes and dots were kind of "meant to suggest," "I seem to think," that in my attempts to sort of round things off---ie, without getting too too silly along the way, maybe ^:-)--- and in my attempts to make things somewhat more nicer and presentable, maybe---and "more understandable," as well, say, even . . . [if possibly at the expense of cutting off some corners, or somebody's corners . . .] . . . BUT (not to mention: but/"but") since, as I tend to see it, there are "corners" and "important corners" out there, apparently, well . . . {ie, seeing as "exoteric/esoteric"---if seen rather selectively/exclusively---?/"?"---in the linear/logical dualistic terms of "important/more important"---might present some apparent complications---even confusions, maybe?--- as possibly from the direction of such as "Leon/Dallas, etc", say, as per numerous past instances on these lists [[or "is it just me"?]]. . . well . . . so . . . ^:-) . . . what can I say . . . })) From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Nov 17 15:05:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 23:05:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 63138 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 23:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 23:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 23:05:17 -0000 Received: from mkr1.gbronline.com [209.12.91.8] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A034E4B7003E; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:03:16 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021117170137.02d8bec0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:07:14 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: November 17 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let us all remember November 17, the day when Theosophical Society was formally inaugurated in 1875. The fact that we are all discussing theosophy here today after 127 years is testimony to the power of theosophy. Many here will vouch their gratefulness for the sacrifices made by the Founders and many others in the cause of theosophy and many including myself will vouch for theosophy having made a difference in our lives. mkr ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 17 15:51:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 23:51:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17675 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 23:51:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 23:51:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 23:51:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Nov 2002 23:51:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:51:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Avoiding Plagiarism: Mastering the Art of Scholarship" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 834 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The issue of "true scholarship" was brought up recently on this forum. Just by accident today, while researching a totally unrelated subject, I stumbled upon the following web page titled: "Avoiding Plagiarism: Mastering the Art of Scholarship" I quote a few choice comments from this article: "Scholarship entails researching, understanding, and building upon the work of others, but also requires that proper credit be given for any 'borrowed' material." "If you repeat another's exact words, you MUST use quotation marks and cite the source." "Plagiarism is dishonest because it misrepresents the work of another as your own." The whole article is worth carefully reading especially if one is claiming to be an advocate of "true scholarship." See the complete text at: http://sja.ucdavis.edu/avoid.htm Daniel From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 15:57:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 17 Nov 2002 23:57:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 3901 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 23:57:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 23:57:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 23:57:19 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.181.120b3105 (4539) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:57:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <181.120b3105.2b0986da@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:57:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Le Mesnevi, Mathnawi, and Mevlevi To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, Thanks so much for your informative post which is a positive contribution for we the other list members. In similar vein to the ecstatic Lover/Beloved metaphors you example I might recommend another work which is a wide Middle East Tradition. The work of G. R. S. Mead , one of the "Echoes From The Gnosis" series he published. Echoes From The Gnosis, Vol. XI "The Wedding Song of Wisdom", The Theosophical Publishing Society, London & Benares, 1908. These Volumes are in current republication. John From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 16:09:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 00:09:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 38690 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 00:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 00:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 00:09:52 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.19a.bc75a3e (4539) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:09:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19a.bc75a3e.2b0989cb@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:09:47 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Subba Row and Leadbeater To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, A little Humor here after reading about your "ex", get the Bumper Sticker for your car that says "I still miss my ex-- but my aim is getting better" He He John From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 17 16:46:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 00:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 98527 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 00:46:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 00:46:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 00:46:41 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.15.26ba99e (4539) for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:46:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15.26ba99e.2b09926d@cs.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:46:37 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Henk J. Spierenburg's Biographical Sketch of T. Subba Row To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, Thanks so very much for the info on the new Subba Row publications. John From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 17 22:26:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 06:26:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 9745 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 06:26:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 06:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 06:26:06 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.36.319b85ab (3964) for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36.319b85ab.2b09e1f8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:26:00 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 You just don't get it, do you? I said "turn a staff into a snake" (a trick I learned from Moses ;-) not the other way around. Don't you think all the Egyptian magicians whom the original Moses fooled, didn't know that easy trick of turning a snake into a stick? That's about as easy as the Indian rope trick. But then, you always manage to turn everything around to suit your own agenda, don't you? Can't I have any fun with serious, although misguided iconoclasts, who think everything anyone who disagrees with them says, is a personal attack that has to be reflected back by using ad homonym innuendoes that are just a projection of their own character traits? :-( If that shoe doesn't fit, why else would you be so interested in tearing down, using such methods, the fundamentally benevolent teaching as theosophy -- whose major goals are to bring ALL of humanity together in a universal brotherhood and help better the conditions of their lives through a clearer understanding of who they really are, what they all came from, and where they are going? From a compassionate theosophical point of view, then, I have to ask you; How has theosophy hurt you that makes you so eager to destroy it? I'm also getting a bit tired of all your bellyaching about Blavatsky and her "magic tricks." What counts, as far as her disciples and students, or any "real" Thinkers are concerned, is what she said and taught, not what she did. Maybe if you studied what you argue against, instead of plugging away at digging up all the personal garbage, you might learn something useful. And, even if the Mahatma letters' delivery were faked (which, admittedly, I might do under the same conditions faced by HPB ;-) -- what would it matter? In spite of BAG's equally unfounded (regardless of his "credentials") opinions about theosophy -- based not only on a complete misunderstanding of its teachings, but also on his religious biases that parallel the disagreement between Dayananda Sarasvati (of the Arya Samaj) and theosophy, which denied many of their ideas about reincarnation and karma and other false theological dogmas -- there are no such errors or false ideas in the Mahatmas' or HPB's fundamental teachings. Consequently, in no way do they contradict the real "Secret Doctrine" that is clearly stated in the original Senzar Book of Dzyan -- out of which the mistranslations and distortions were penned into these later exoteric Hindu "sacred scriptural" Sanskrit and Pali rewrites to suit their "priestcrafty" purposes. Incidentally, I have had the same arguments with the present Guru-Ji of that Arya Samaj sect, and while we still don't agree with his belief in reincarnation into animals, and other things that don't fit in with a scientifically and theosophically consistent and logical metaphysics, we do agree on most other theosophical ideas. Also, we are great friends and don't try to tear down each others' teachings by using your type of propaganda tricks of discreditation by digging up all the personal foibles of its teachers or messengers. I could forgive BAG because his disagreement comes out of a basic religious misconception, and he argues on that basis only. But for you, there is no excuse, since your arguments are based on other prople's opinions and "authority," and you attack the teachers, personally, rather than argue against the teachings with a logical alternative philosophy or "theory of everything" that leaves no loose ends. Actually, since I'm pretty sure you haven't read everything HPB ever wrote on the subject (if anything) -- but in one of her articles, HPB denied that there was anything "magical" or "supernatural" in psychic phenomena. She also said that everything she did along those lines was based on lawful scientific possibilities in a multidimensional universe composed of coadunate but not consubstantial fields, coupled with "glamour" -- which was similar to hypnotism or subtle forms of misdirection. If we take the new hyperspace theories of Superstring/M-branes as being a valid description of the universe that contradicts the single material space view presently held by the majority of established academic scientists, it's easy to see how sub microscopic magnetic particles that fill the air could be caused to be precipitated out onto a receptive surface by controlling the magnetic flux images in a coadunate higher order mental field through constructive visualization. Not only is this the possible basis of certain psychic healing and other placebo effects, but a parallel method of such magnetic precipitation is now being explored for use in vapor deposition and nano technology fabrication systems. Eventually, I have no doubt that very soon the new Siperstring/M-brane paradigms of hyperspace energy fields, that follow similar laws of electromagnetism, will "prove" the validity of Theosophical metaphysics, and thus, of the entire Secret Doctrine.. Thereby, blowing all your false anti theosophical arguments (along with your cohort's false religious beliefs) into the limbo of forgotten history where they belong. So, my suggestion is that you fulfill your promise of ending the flood of unwanted and unneeded past history to this forum, and let us get back to discussing theosophy and its practical applications -- which is what I assume most of us are here for. (For those interested in such historical jabberwocky, they can always go over to your and Daniel's web sites and see how closely you agree or disagree with each other.:-) LHM In a message dated 11/15/02 6:17:57 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >leonmaurer: "could turn a staff into a snake' >Brian: That's an easy one, I learned this trick in India. If hit in a fast way >on the head, a snake will go in shock and for a short wile stiffen up like >a stick. > >The conference in India where they demonstrated this also had a lecture >on the Indian rope trick by the way, but as I already once mentioned to >Steve Stubbs, I would have to look up my notes for the details what they >all said about it. Will try to post that in about 5-6 hours on my web >site. > > > Brian. > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 17 22:53:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 06:53:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 70853 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 06:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 06:53:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 06:53:36 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.124.1a27ee6c (3964) for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:53:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <124.1a27ee6c.2b09e86d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:53:33 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: The Mahatma Letters To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Thank you, Wes, for not only defending the personal attacks against those of us who defied the false and phony iconoclasts on this list, but also answering them in such a direct, clear, and matter of fact manner. LHM In a message dated 11/15/02 5:24:47 AM, amerman@theosophy.net writes: >Brian/Brigitte, > > > >I've really had enough. First of all, you refused to discuss any idea >seriously with me, and completely ignored my questions and comments, weeks >and months ago, about the shortcomings of modern science and the gaps in >its approach to evolution and consciousness. All you seem to want to do is >bash Theosophy and any attempt to defend it, all the while quoting from >secondary sources who share your derogatory views. Seldom, if ever, do >you cite the source Theosophy which you claim is faulty. And, when someone >(Daniel, Dallas or Leon, for example) quotes Blavatsky or someone who >supports her to show another side to the matter, you put them down and >attack them personally, as you most recently did by saying Daniel has "no >credentials!" > >Why not just take an IDEA to task? I don't mean a secondary, latter day >student's interpretation, well-known or not, but a bona fide idea from >Blavatsky or her Teachers? If you disagree with Theosophy, why not have >the courage to discuss the central ideas: spiritual evolution, karma, >reincarnation, etc. and their relationships to human lives, needs and >aspirations today? Instead, you criticize the more abstruse and difficult >concepts (such as rounds and races, of which you have absolutely NO clue), >and then garble and misinterpret them to make it seem that they support >the most heinous of UN-brotherly sentiments and actions! > >intelligent impression on me. As for his credentials, I looked them up >, >see below.> >< obviously expert person, a voice. > >As far as Mr. Goswhami [sic] goes, I don't know nor could care less what his >credentials might be -- as if he were some sort of authority on Blavatsky! >Daniel provided the following timely quote from Mr. Goswami, which should >make it abundantly clear that the latter has absolutely no idea what >Theosophy is about: > >"H. P. Blavatsky and the Theosophists and early Aryanists made Sri >Lanka one of their world headquarters for exporting their militant >atheism. Aryosophist esotericism in Britain and Germany became >pervaded with Theravadin Buddhist thought. This 'Aryanism' doctrine >of voidism and related moral relativism eventually became central to >the conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich. Theravadin >Buddhist voidism has not been a benevolent force in history ! . ." > >There is so much mere assertion, misinformation and innuendo contained >just in this first paragraph that I hardly know where to start -- What, for >example, is Theosophy's "militant atheism?" Blavatsky fought, to be sure, >against dogmatic religion and religious hypocrisy, but to accuse her of >"atheism" is the height of ignorance. What is the value of such contrived >phrases as "Aryosophist esotericism," "voidism" and "related moral >relativism?" On the surface or to the uneducated, they might sound >learned, but they reek of academic bullshit. This conclusion is supported >by the next sentence, that these ideas "eventually became central to the >conscienceless atrocities of the Third Reich."!!!!!!!! What crap, Brian. >And you have the temerity to bring this man forward on this list and promote >him as an "authority" on Theosophy and Blavatsky???? I'm sure anyone who >has ever read Blavatsky with half an eye open could find ample references >in her writings to refute this garbage. One line from Blavatsky should suffice >as a start: "Theosophy is altruism, and we cannot repeat it too often." >And have you ever read the first object of the Theosophical Society: "To >form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction >of race, color or creed?" [Key to Theosophy, p 39] > >Just what is your purpose in "contributing" to this list? To prove that >there are "experts" in academia who share your views? To dissuade inquirers >from looking into Theosophy? To attack your least favorite historical >personages and hope that others will come to share your biases? > >Best Regards, >Wes Amerman In a message dated 11/15/02 6:57:28 AM, amerman@theosophy.net writes: >Dear Mr. Goswami, > >As I understand from Brian/Brigitte's recent post that you are not well, >please be sure the following is not directed personally toward you, nor was >my last note sent to this list. However, as you make many bold assertions >as facts about Madame Blavatsky and Theosophy, I think it only fair that >you allow me to respond. > >In your letter to Brian/Brigitte, posted yesterday to this list, you first >make five points of which I will let the first four pass. Then you write, >5, SHE CONSIDERED THE CRUEL, OPPRESSIVE SO-CALLED 'CHRISTIAN' >ENGLISH LESS NOBLE OF CHARACTER THAN THE HARD WORKING LESS- >EVOLVED OTHER RACES. Stop. >Where in this article does Blavatsky use the phrase "less-evolved" when >referring to less "civilized" cultures? Her reference in the article to >"inferior races" is in direct reference to a contemporary source, Lumholtz, >whom she then quotes. > >You then follow with this astounding statement: NO WHERE IS THERE ANY >EVIDENCE IN THIS LETTER THAT SHE WASN'T A RACIST. Then you go on >about your Caribbean ancestors and the issues surrounding the terrible plight >of slaves in that region. I don't dispute your facts, but I ask you: What does >this have to do with Blavatsky and Theosophy? Aside from the logically >thankless task of proving a negative, your statement is backwards. YOU >are making the assertion that Blavatsky was a racist. I say, "PROVE IT." >Set any standard you like, Modern or Nineteenth Century, and show by >Blavatsky'swords or deeds that she was anything but a selfless altruist >with a love for humanity. > >Then you write: SHE CLEARLY CONSIDERED OTHER RACES INFERIOR TO HER >IMAGINED 'ARYANS', WITH THE NEGROES AND VEDDA OR AUSTRALOIDS ON >THE LOWEST RUNG OF HER IMAGINED EVOLUTIONARY LADDER. > > And further, > >SHE WAS THE AUTHOR OF A PROFOUNDLY DANGEROUS, RACIST THOUGHT >SYSTEM, WHICH HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY RACISTS WORLD-WIDE, AND HAS >CAUSED AND IS CAUSING UNTOLD HUMAN SUFFERING. > >Mr. Goswami, just how do you come to these conclusions, either from this >article or elsewhere? To what statements in "The Secret Doctrine" do you >refer? > >Have you not realized that something besides the ordinary usage of the >term "race" is meant by the time one gets to the latter part of Volume Two? >It might be helpful to consider that Blavatsky seems to use the word in at >least three ways: 1. To refer to the concept of the stream of Monads, as >they pass through various states of substance called Globes, or Rounds, >which are analogous to the "principles" of the planet earth. This >establishes the concept of humanity as a "wave," or "river" of >consciousness, not the form. 2. To refer to the Continents which the >Monads inhabit, identified either by time period or location. Thus, the >First root race was the Imperishable Sacred Land, the Second was Hyperborea, >the Third Lemuria, the Fourth Atlantis and the Fifth the (current) Aryan. >You can regard this as "mythical," if you like, but it affirms the common >humanity of all of us as we share the human form throughout vast ages of >the history of the earth. 3. To refer to the condition of the Monads as they >awaken to Self-Consciousness toward the latter part of the Third Root Race, >when the general term "human race" begins to have meaning in a sense we >can comprehend. And, for all intents and purposes, the entire human family >today IS the "Fifth Root Race" because the fifth principle, Manas, or mind, >the thinking principle, is foremost. > >However, the problem with most of us humans is that we confuse the substance >with the form. We think the "Man" is the "Human Form," when it is the >indwelling "Thinker." There are better and more refined human forms, as >well as poorly developed ones, to be sure, but we are all spiritual beings within >that use them; more than that, Blavatsky taught that we are all brothers >and sisters, regardless of outer distinctions (minor variances of form). There >are groups of humans that use one or another of the human faculties better >than others -- spiritual perception, astral sensitivities and abilities, >mental faculties, etc. Those with acute rational minds have sometimes >erroneously been called "advanced;" those with lesser brain-minds >"less-evolved." These are misleading conventions, perhaps, and the 21st >Century will hopefully do a better job than the 19th and 20th in using >them. But to argue, as you do, that Blavatsky, either intentionally or >unintentionally promoted "a profoundly dangerous, racist thought system" >is to promote the most vicious untruth. If people have taken her ideas and >twisted them to their own evil ends, you might as well lay the same charge >against Jesus, Krishna or the Buddha! Any partial truth can be turned, >and when misused, has more power than a blatant lie. > >Blavatsky herself put to rest any Westerner's delusions about the >superiority of his/her "race:" > >"If to-morrow the continent of Europe were to disappear and other lands to >re-emerge instead; and if the African tribes were to separate and scatter >on the face of the earth, it is they who, in about a hundred thousand years >hence, would form the bulk of the civilized nations. And it is the >descendants of those of our highly cultured nations, who might have survived >on some one island, without any means of crossing the new seas, that would >fall back into a state of relative savagery. Thus the reason given for >dividing humanity into superior and inferior races falls to the ground and >becomes a fallacy." "The Secret Doctrine" Volume 2, page 425 FN > >Your last comments are gratuitous baloney at best, backhanded compliments >if I ever heard them. There are several, but one will suffice: >IN FAIRNESS HOWEVER, WE MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO ASCRIBE ATTITUDES >AND CRIMES TO HER, FOR WHICH SHE WAS NOT GUILTY. > >Why bother to try to be "fair?" You apparently know nothing about either >Blavatsky or her writings, and choose first to deprecate, then damn them >with the faint and false praise of her alleged ignorance of what she said. >Again, I challenge you to prove your thus-far unsubstantiated allegations. >They are untrue and unfair. > >Best Regards, > >Wes Amerman > From samblo@cs.com Mon Nov 18 02:53:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 33067 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 10:53:32 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.153.179369ab (3980) for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:53:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <153.179369ab.2b0a20aa@cs.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:53:30 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World What about Brown? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, will the below help? W.T. Brown's "Scenes in My Life" Introduction and Notes by Michael Gomes William Tournay Brown's most detailed account of his life under the pseudonym Carwood Gerald Clarke, includes the letter he received from the "Unknown Brother," Koot Hoomi, "regarded by many as the most remarkable of the age," and his tete-a tete with a Brahmin who was "well dressed, handsome, and seemingly of about 40 years of age" while "crossing the plain on the outskirts of Lahore City," presumably the Master in the flesh. Also of special interest is Brown's positive assessment of H.S. Olcott, quoting in full both a letter from Olcott to Brown and an address by Olcott to the Prayag Psychic Theosophical Society, entitled "India, Past, Present and Future." $17.00 40 pages ISBN 1 883279-031995 this was on the following website: http://www.theohistory.org/occas.html John From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Nov 18 03:11:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 55079 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.6d.2604ff4 (3964) for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 06:11:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6d.2604ff4.2b0a24f8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 06:11:52 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi M. I hope you know when your leg is being pulled. :-) If you did, you wouldn't have a happy smile... You'd be laughing out loud. In any event, I agree with Steve -- at least about the things he said about freedom and Dopey Dubya. But, seriously, the one thing you should know is; The American people (who don't own the global businesses) and the people who run this country and make all the foreign affairs decisions, are birds of a different color. So, when you condemn the "US" imperialism, don't blame all us "Americans" (although some of us may have voted, for one reason or another, for the assholes at the top who push the buttons. ;-) The rest of us are either "indigenous Americans," or a mixed bag of immigrants and their descendants, who are about as free as they want to be in their local State and City communities (each, with their own separate local laws, rules and regulations) -- some of which have probably as many (or less), as ethnically pure (or diverse), as prejudiced (or unprejudiced), as free (or unfree) people as in your own country... (And, everything in-between.) LHM In a message dated 11/15/02 11:44:07 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >HI Steve and all of you, > >Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! >Maybe more than you would know. > >from >M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Steve Stubbs" >To: >Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > >> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. >> > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - >> extremly >> > nationalistic - country which >> > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they >> do the >> > opposite ! >> >> Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's >> mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq >> correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he >> wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he >> wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just >> inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. >> Or just resign and go away, one of the two. >> >> > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the >> > EU-countries - looking at percentages. >> >> Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on >> drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on >> the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of >> work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were >> reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It >> is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested >> interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. >> >> Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political >> spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. >> >> > And what about the arab countries or India ? >> >> They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about >> it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. >> Some of us hope we can catch up someday. >> >> > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of >> USA are >> > allowed "FREE MIXING". >> >> Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends >> Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. >> >> > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? >> >> I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. >> >> > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is >> important. >> > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? >> >> Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going >> to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a >> rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. >> The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get >> beaten too badly. >> >> You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an >> accurate view of the situation. >> From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 03:51:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 11:51:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 19689 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 11:51:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 11:51:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 11:51:47 -0000 Received: from pool0094.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.94] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DkRH-0007GZ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:51:40 -0800 To: Cc: "AA-Bernin" Subject: RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:47:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 18 2002 Re: Race and Politics? Dear Netemara: The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ? How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics." What can be used to unite, not divide ? How can we speak casually of war and killing and making forcible changes in other countries' governments? As an exaggerated example: How would any one of us like a unit of policemen camped in our homes to see we maintain the Law ? [ Do we have a right to be "crazy?" When do our neighbours have a "right" to interfere ? What, then become their responsibilities ? ] Yes, there are objectionable "dictators." and they need to be restrained, whether in Iraq or in Libya, or anywhere. But, fundamentally it is up to the local people to effect changes, not external might, which is also tainted with a greed for oil, etc..., and for the power that it represents. Any one with any discernment know that Iraq is unable to endure any contest of might with the US, or the united UN. But, can any one predict the future? We may secure a peace by force and removal of a current trouble maker, but does that cure the disease ? What, fundamentally is the disease ? Can it ever be forcefully eradicated, and health forced in ? What will be the conditions 20, 50, 100 years from now ? Is it not strange that in a Theosophical chat-group (where brotherhood is the basic criterion) we have discussions about "race" and "politics?" What would be a Theosophical basis for consideration? If we, each of us, are Immortal Souls, then our present incarnation is only one of a great series, where we have lived in many "races" and different "sexes," and have played with "politics" down the ages -- only we don't remember the details. One thing is certain: our present inclination, and what we know in our hearts, indicates WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED AND STORED in our characters. We all know the difference between selfishness and compassion. Theosophy teaches compassion., not the divisions of hatred and prejudice. So why should we concern ourselves with the present day arguments motivated by either greed or parochialism, and marked by an indifference to human suffering, if it is sufficiently far away from our doorstep and neighbourhood. Do we think at all of the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere who are affected by the armed incursions of various "peace-keeping" military units and men? How can one keep peace by armed might? Is that rue fundamental justice ? Dallas -----Original Message----- From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:38 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'wh... To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB: I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got the books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From other African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and the like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not deter US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew up on it ever since. I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a reason, as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read on into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work 100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding. Netemara **************** -- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very enlightened beings > bring this(below) into the world. > FIRE > Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT. > The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that he brought > not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war. > What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder? > BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything , good , bad > or indifferent , in its entirety. > Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you think?).Despondency > must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get out of it. > I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or enjoy all > in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The coinage of > the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine Nature) This > former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin. > This FIRE is very potent, one might think. > And so it is. > Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE, don't you > think. > So, then , what happens next? > A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student. > How delicious, after that "roasting". > Ahhhhhh. > PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us. > ======================================================== > > In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as > > in 'white' race. " > > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > Reply-to: > theos-talk@y... > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL, > > > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. > > > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME INTERPRETED > > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' AS > > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE TARA'. > > > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK > > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS > > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. > > > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF > > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY > > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE > > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED ANTI- > > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY IMPRESSIVE > > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN FACT, IN > > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST > > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL POST > > THAT NOTE HERE. > > > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS > > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS FROM A > > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST AND > > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT IS > > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE AND > > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU WHO > > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING FOR > > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. BOTH > > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE WANTED > > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! > > > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND CONTINUES > > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE WILL > > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. > > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM HUMANITY'S > > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE > > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS WORLD > > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, THAT > > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THIS > > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT > > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A PROFOUNDLY > > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY > > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. I AM > > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER- MINDED > > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI > > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED LOOSE > > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS AND > > SETTLE THERE. > > > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF IDEAS > > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN THOSE > > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > > > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or the > > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? > > > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE CONTEXT OF > > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. > > > > Whether they are > > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White Ascended > > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) makes > > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races idea > > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > > > literatures means 'white race.'" > > > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / ARYAN > > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY NAME > > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), > > HARA (SHIVA), > > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), > > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), > > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), > > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, > > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, > > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS > > HELI OF THE HELLENES > > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) > > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) > > SOLE OF THE ROMANS > > ETC. > > > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR > > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW ELYM, > > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, ETC., > > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF- FROM > > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. > > > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. > > > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > > > > > Quoted from: > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references to > > HPB's > > > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > > > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood or > > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does she > > > use these terms? > > > > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE under > > > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > > > > > adept astronomers of II 699 > > > adepts I vii; II 495 > > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > > > Arabs are later II 200 > > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > > > Atlanteans taught II 426 > > > born in the north II 768 > > > branches of II 106 > > > bull symbolizes II 533 > > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > > > Carlyle q on II 470 > > > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > > > common religion before separation I xxix > > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > > > decimal system I 360-2 > > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > > > dvijas II 469 > > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > > > era, figures given II 68n > > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > > > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > > > height of, after third subrace II 753 > > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > > > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > > > Kabbala came fr I 376 > > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > > > languages II 199-200 &nn > > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > > > many colors of II 249-50 > > > migrated to India II 609 > > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > > > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > > > Rama first divine king of II 495 > > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 &n > > > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > > > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 03:52:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 35612 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:05 -0000 Received: from pool0094.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.94] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DkRf-0007GZ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:52:04 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: re Gerald/Dallas . . . Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:48:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov. 18 2002 I would like to say: Try living an instant without thought and the mind." If one truly examines it, one soon finds its ramifications extend everywhere. How then can it be omitted, avoided, or minimized ? Playing with words of description does not answer the direct question of its necessity. Dal -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:21 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: re Gerald/Dallas . . . Gerald wrote: <> "False assumptions," I suspect, in the sense that "logic," as it's expressed in duality---as per one's "mainstream worldview," say---has a somewhat inescapable relativity aspect to it, in the sense that manas is largely limited in the sense that it isn't generally able to think, feel, talk, see, move, t/ Theosophize, scientize, etc., other than within the bouncy (dualistic) terms that our dualistic/mainstream world allows; and so, in that sense, the questions of manas tend to be kind of never ending, mayavic, blinkered, simplistic, short sighted, forever chasing their own tail, etc . . . Of couse (?) if that kind of reality is real enough for manas, than it's (what?) real enough . . . But/"but" . . . Speculatively, Mauri --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 03:52:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 32383 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:06 -0000 Received: from pool0094.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.94] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DkRc-0007GZ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:52:00 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: - "Creation" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:48:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 18 2002 Re: "Creation" Dear Friends: I seem to be either misunderstood or misinterpreted. Excuse me. I would never assume that the UNIVERSE was "created" by any one or anything except its own highest SPIRITUAL NATURE. THAT IS THE ONE UNDEFINABLE ABSOLUTE, WHICH IS ETERNAL AND CONTINUOUS. Noting can be created out of nothing -- this is fundamental. But in consequence of this statement, the substance and materials for "creation" are forever present. (These are the eternal Monads.) Also the Laws of evolution, reincarnation, compassion and brotherhood which support such a joint process must be absolute and impartial for all and ever-present. But even our Science acknowledges this aspect of nature. (Incidentally, Nature was here long before "Science " began to investigate it so thoroughly -- beginning about 350 years ago.) Our Science examines and tests Nature constantly to make sure that her laws are universal impartial and always operative. Why should mankind alone not be subject to the laws of responsibility ? The right word, I think is REINCARNATION for all beings (Monads) into the conditions which they abandoned many ages before for a long rest. The new Universe is the "child" of the old one, just as our Earth is the "child" of our ancient Moon. But, read The SECRET DOCTRINE for full details. The whole thesis of The SECRET DOCTRINE speaks to this. I would make no changes in it. The "creative force" is that aspect of Universal KARMA (also a part of the ABSOLUTE) that propels evolution, is internal to every being (Monad) that collaborates to assist in the existence and operation of the UNIVERSE. It s also mandatory that there being of advanced experience which help and assist Nature in this vast, comprehensive work. -- this gives rise to the classes of these called the Dhyanis, the Budhas, the Manus, the Rishis the Mahatmas, and the Adepts. The SECRET DOCTRINE also presents the concept that the eternal Monads of many degrees of experience are the aggregates that serve to form the universe under the great common law of compassion and brotherhood. This Law also propels, not only the individuals, but the whole mass, forward in a creative fashion, each individual is provided for, and each is seen to be evolving in collaboration with the rest. If this is not grasped then the whole existing process will not appear reasonable. Our minds limited so far to this life and resident on a very small planet lost in the infinitudes of the UNIVERSE find it difficult to grasp such concepts, but it is only by attacking and securing the necessary evidence of purpose, law and voluntary compliance, that the whole system may be dimly perceived. It operates all around us in the VAST UNIVERSE, it operates analogetically inside us in the organization of our physical and astral bodies. To the Monads (of lesser experience non-self-conscious yet) that aggregate around us, the MONAD (of partial self-conscious experience), we may appear as "creative gods." To us the great Buddhas, and Dhyanis (Universally Self-conscious and WISE) of the early stages of our evolution, long ago, may appear as "gods". At each stage the free-will of the human Mind operates. But all is under LAW. Without the support of the whole living Universe we could not exist. Yet we (the Monad) using this body of ours are ignorant of most of the bodily functions. But we can study and learn them. Similarly we can study and learn the rules, laws and programs of the greater Universe around us. But, unless we take the position of being IMMORTALS and the Universe also being immortal and ruled by LAW, such a hope of progress is impossible. One life-time is inadequate. So we are forced to consider Law and Reincarnation and a Universal Evolution, that has for aim the TOTAL PERFECTION of every being involved in it. This really stretches the imagination. But, logically these are necessary. Best wishes, Dal ============================== -----Original Message----- From: gschueler@earthlink.net [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:20 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re to mauri - Creation Mauri, the questions that Dallas was asking assume that our manifested universe was created by someone/something for a purpose. This is a false assumption. Our manifested universe was never "created" in the sense of having a beginning. It has no beginning. It will have no end. It is an ongoing creative process sustained by our own karma due to our own ignorance of what is really going on. It has no purpose, and needs none, other than the fun and joy of self-expression. Jerry S. ****************** Gerald wrote: <> "False assumptions," I suspect, in the sense that "logic," as it's expressed in duality---as per one's "mainstream worldview," say---has a somewhat inescapable relativity aspect to it, in the sense that manas is largely limited in the sense that it isn't generally able to think, feel, talk, see, move, t/ Theosophize, scientize, etc., other than within the bouncy (dualistic) terms that our dualistic/mainstream world allows; and so, in that sense, the questions of manas tend to be kind of never ending, mayavic, blinkered, simplistic, short sighted, forever chasing their own tail, etc . . . Of couse (?) if that kind of reality is real enough for manas, than it's (what?) real enough . . . But/"but" . . . Speculatively, Mauri --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 03:52:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 11630 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 11:52:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 11:52:11 -0000 Received: from pool0094.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.94] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DkRk-0007GZ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:52:09 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Re to Tim Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:48:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Friends: Can we not say that ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS are unified, as a necessity, for their presence. It is up to the embodied mind (Lower Manas -- our brain-mind) to apprehend them? Their essential qualities are WISDOM UNIVERSAL, the concentrated result of experience, and the ability to weigh the information from these two sources with the circumstances of daily life (returning Karma) that confront us as embodied minds in our daily "here and now?" Dal =========================== -----Original Message----- From: gschueler Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:14 AM To: Theosophy Subject: Re to Tim <<<>> As to the need for seven lifetimes, Who is counting? Seven is symbolic not literal. Very briefly: One begins with one-pointed meditation until manas is transcended. The atma-buddhi monad (which is not a nondual monad) is our Spiritual Self or Higher Self, and if we unite with it and identify with it then we enter nirvana and become a nirvanee. But this is not our goal. The goal is to raise consciousness to atma-buddhi and then bring in manas so that the three act together. You are right, this triad is still in maya, and must be transcended to the nondual monad; doing this is called entering paranirvana. *********************************** <<>> OK, but then, Where did that "one substance" come from? Actually, Theosophy teaches that matter and spirit are two aspects of the same basic substance, so Theosophy is saying that you are correct, there is just one substance -- the so-called anima mundi. The "monadic ray" is not a substance, is neither physical or spiritual, and is used in Theosophy's creation model as a way of explaining how the nondual Monad can create or self-manifest into a dualistic manvantaric universe. When we try to conceptualize the ineffable, we often get into trouble. ************************** CUT From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 04:00:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 12:00:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 71995 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 12:00:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 12:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 12:00:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2002 12:00:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:00:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theosophists non-evidence and fears to come in the open on Indiancivilisation. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 760 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Where is the evidence Blavatsky wrote the whole "THEOSOPHICAL=20 GLOSSARY" another hat trick from DANIEL C. CALDWELL ? --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > H.P. Blavatsky writes in THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY: >=20 > "=C2rya (Sk.) Lit., 'the holy'; originally the title of Rishis, > those=20 > who had mastered the '=C2ryasaty=E2ni' (q.v.)and entered the > =C2ryanim=E2rga=20 > path to Nirv=E2na or Moksha, the great 'four-fold' path. But now the=20 > name has become the epithet of a race, and our Orientalists,=20 > depriving the Hindu Brahmans of their birth-right, have made Aryans=20 > of all Europeans. . . ." >=20 > Quoted from: > http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Aglossary.htm#a >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 04:01:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 12:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 39051 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 12:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 12:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 12:01:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2002 12:01:51 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:01:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 16347 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Dallas, I have been asking other so-called spiritual people for years that same question: I thought we were supposed to be about brotherhood? But all I got was no better treatment from them than the general population. I am not saying that is true here, but perhaps Theosophists do get it right, I don't know. We have said here that HPB was a product of her times, well so were the Presidents who had slaves and impregnated them also a product of their times. Brotherhood may be slow in coming, but I think it is coming in the future. We did not have it then, and we don't have it now, at least not to my satisfaction. But I ain't nobody. I discuss race and the like because it tells a story just like the address you live at. We have all changed addresses during our many lives here, and the race is merely an address. I have gone so far to see when I trace lives that people look the same throughout each life regardless to what race they incarnate into!! BUT I can't get any white people to see it my way, so I just keep writing and talking to myself. I agree 100%- --but it is the powers that be that don't want to give an inch. Netemara ************* --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Nov 18 2002 > > Re: Race and Politics? > > Dear Netemara: > > The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus > for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ? > > How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics." > > What can be used to unite, not divide ? > > How can we speak casually of war and killing and making forcible > changes in other countries' governments? As an exaggerated example: > How would any one of us like a unit of policemen camped in our homes > to see we maintain the Law ? [ Do we have a right to be "crazy?" > When do our neighbours have a "right" to interfere ? What, then > become their responsibilities ? ] > > Yes, there are objectionable "dictators." and they need to be > restrained, whether in Iraq or in Libya, or anywhere. But, > fundamentally it is up to the local people to effect changes, not > external might, which is also tainted with a greed for oil, etc..., > and for the power that it represents. > > Any one with any discernment know that Iraq is unable to endure any > contest of might with the US, or the united UN. But, can any one > predict the future? We may secure a peace by force and removal of a > current trouble maker, but does that cure the disease ? What, > fundamentally is the disease ? Can it ever be forcefully eradicated, > and health forced in ? What will be the conditions 20, 50, 100 years > from now ? > > Is it not strange that in a Theosophical chat-group (where brotherhood > is the basic criterion) we have discussions about "race" and > "politics?" What would be a Theosophical basis for consideration? > > If we, each of us, are Immortal Souls, then our present incarnation is > only one of a great series, where we have lived in many "races" and > different "sexes," and have played with "politics" down the ages -- > only we don't remember the details. > > One thing is certain: our present inclination, and what we know in > our hearts, indicates WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED AND STORED in our > characters. We all know the difference between selfishness and > compassion. > > Theosophy teaches compassion., not the divisions of hatred and > prejudice. > > So why should we concern ourselves with the present day arguments > motivated by either greed or parochialism, and marked by an > indifference to human suffering, if it is sufficiently far away from > our doorstep and neighbourhood. > > Do we think at all of the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere who are > affected by the armed incursions of various "peace-keeping" military > units and men? > > How can one keep peace by armed might? Is that rue fundamental > justice ? > > Dallas > > -----Original Message----- > From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@y...] > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:38 AM > To: theos-talk@y... > Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant > white as in 'wh... > > To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB: > > I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that > blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and > AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got the > books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From other > African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me > be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and the > like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not deter > US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read > them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish > reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that > HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew > up on it ever since. > > I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a reason, > as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it > is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up > people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read on > into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work > 100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or > whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to > keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding. > > Netemara > > **************** > > -- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very > enlightened beings > > bring this(below) into the world. > > FIRE > > Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT. > > The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that > he brought > > not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war. > > What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder? > > BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything , > good , bad > > or indifferent , in its entirety. > > Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you > think?).Despondency > > must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get > out of it. > > I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or > enjoy all > > in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The > coinage of > > the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine > Nature) This > > former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin. > > This FIRE is very potent, one might think. > > And so it is. > > Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE, > don't you > > think. > > So, then , what happens next? > > A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student. > > How delicious, after that "roasting". > > Ahhhhhh. > > PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us. > > ======================================================== > > > > In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > > > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant > white as > > > in 'white' race. " > > > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > > Reply-to: > > theos-talk@y... > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL, > > > > > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > wrote: > > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > > > > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' > race. > > > > > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME > INTERPRETED > > > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' > AS > > > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE > TARA'. > > > > > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK > > > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS > > > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. > > > > > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF > > > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY > > > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE > > > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED > ANTI- > > > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY > IMPRESSIVE > > > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN > FACT, IN > > > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST > > > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL > POST > > > THAT NOTE HERE. > > > > > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL > WRITINGS > > > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS > FROM A > > > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST > AND > > > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT > IS > > > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE > AND > > > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU > WHO > > > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING > FOR > > > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. > BOTH > > > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE > WANTED > > > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! > > > > > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND > CONTINUES > > > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE > WILL > > > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. > > > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM > HUMANITY'S > > > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE > > > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS > WORLD > > > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, > THAT > > > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE > THIS > > > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT > > > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A > PROFOUNDLY > > > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS > SIMPLY > > > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. > I AM > > > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER- > MINDED > > > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI > > > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED > LOOSE > > > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS > AND > > > SETTLE THERE. > > > > > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF > IDEAS > > > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN > THOSE > > > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > > > > > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or > the > > > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? > > > > > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE > CONTEXT OF > > > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. > > > > > > Whether they are > > > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White > Ascended > > > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) > makes > > > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races > idea > > > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > > > > literatures means 'white race.'" > > > > > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / > ARYAN > > > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY > NAME > > > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), > > > HARA (SHIVA), > > > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), > > > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), > > > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), > > > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, > > > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, > > > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS > > > HELI OF THE HELLENES > > > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) > > > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) > > > SOLE OF THE ROMANS > > > ETC. > > > > > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR > > > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW > ELYM, > > > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, > ETC., > > > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF- > FROM > > > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. > > > > > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. > > > > > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > > > > > > > Quoted from: > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references > to > > > HPB's > > > > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > > > > > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood > or > > > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does > she > > > > use these terms? > > > > > > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE > under > > > > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > > > > > > > adept astronomers of II 699 > > > > adepts I vii; II 495 > > > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > > > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > > > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > > > > Arabs are later II 200 > > > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > > > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > > > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > > > > Atlanteans taught II 426 > > > > born in the north II 768 > > > > branches of II 106 > > > > bull symbolizes II 533 > > > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > > > > Carlyle q on II 470 > > > > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > > > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > > > > common religion before separation I xxix > > > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > > > > decimal system I 360-2 > > > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > > > > dvijas II 469 > > > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > > > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > > > > era, figures given II 68n > > > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > > > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > > > > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > > > > height of, after third subrace II 753 > > > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > > > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > > > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > > > > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > > > > Kabbala came fr I 376 > > > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > > > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > > > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > > > > languages II 199-200 &nn > > > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > > > > many colors of II 249-50 > > > > migrated to India II 609 > > > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > > > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > > > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > > > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > > > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > > > > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > > > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > > > > Rama first divine king of II 495 > > > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > > > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > > > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > > > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 > &n > > > > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > > > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > > > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > > > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > > > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > > > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > > > > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > > > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > > > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 06:54:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 14:54:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 37960 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 14:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 14:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 14:54:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2002 14:54:03 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:54:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theosophists non-evidence and fears to come in the open on Indiancivilisation. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2542 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach V.C.Vijayaraghavan: Theorsophical society. TS, for all their=20 verbiage is a fringe movemnt . Brian: It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the= =3D=0D =20 world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental=20=20 teachings or not.=20 Let us just have Daniel C. Caldwell, Dallas/Dalval, Leoanmaurer, or=20 however believes "The Mahatma Letters"=20 Are what they claim they are, post there and we watch this for a day or=20 two, or and all of us participate (how many takers among the=20 Theosophists on this list ?) there for=20 a day or two, anybody can post a question there . Let Daniel C. Caldwell , Dallas, and so on post whatever they want us to=20 believe on "theos talk" on a that list with more then seven hundred=20 (exactly 707) experts in the field of ancient religions and civilisations o= =3D=0D n=20 the Indian sub-continent. (Including Tibetologists and so on) : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization And lets see how many of the more then sevenhundred experts there=20=20 Daniel C. Caldwell and Dallas or however of those on theos-talk that=20 believe "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are can get any=20 of these sevenhundred and more experts there to agree. Lets Dallas/ Daniel/Leon/ and so on show us they are not just crackpot- "believers." At least with such a large group of specialists in religions , history, an= =3D=0D d=20 archeology of the ancient Indian sub-continent (two or three ?) that=20 would confirm that what Dallas/Daniel and so on want us to (bamboos=20 into ?) "believing," is true. = =3D=0D Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Where is the evidence Blavatsky wrote the whole "THEOSOPHICAL=20 > GLOSSARY" another hat trick from DANIEL C. CALDWELL ? >=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > H.P. Blavatsky writes in THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY: > >=20 > > "=C2rya (Sk.) Lit., 'the holy'; originally the title of Rishis, > > those=20 > > who had mastered the '=C2ryasaty=E2ni' (q.v.)and entered the > > =C2ryanim=E2rga=20 > > path to Nirv=E2na or Moksha, the great 'four-fold' path. But now the=20 > > name has become the epithet of a race, and our Orientalists,=20 > > depriving the Hindu Brahmans of their birth-right, have made=20 Aryans=20 > > of all Europeans. . . ." > >=20 > > Quoted from: > > http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Aglossary.htm#a > >=20 > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 07:17:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 15:17:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 28541 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 15:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 15:17:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 15:17:32 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2231248102E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:17:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001401c28f14$df25a7a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <6d.2604ff4.2b0a24f8@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:12:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, I laugh. And Yes Leon - I still have my legs, they are not gone, not yet that is! So no racism in USA ? No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when Martin Luther King Jr. did his best to make peace on this Planet ? Really....? from M. Sufilight with no smiles...but a happy face... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Hi M. > > I hope you know when your leg is being pulled. :-) > > If you did, you wouldn't have a happy smile... You'd be laughing out loud. > > In any event, I agree with Steve -- at least about the things he said about > freedom and Dopey Dubya. > > But, seriously, the one thing you should know is; The American people (who > don't own the global businesses) and the people who run this country and make > all the foreign affairs decisions, are birds of a different color. > > So, when you condemn the "US" imperialism, don't blame all us "Americans" > (although some of us may have voted, for one reason or another, for the > assholes at the top who push the buttons. ;-) The rest of us are either > "indigenous Americans," or a mixed bag of immigrants and their descendants, > who are about as free as they want to be in their local State and City > communities (each, with their own separate local laws, rules and regulations) > -- some of which have probably as many (or less), as ethnically pure (or > diverse), as prejudiced (or unprejudiced), as free (or unfree) people as in > your own country... (And, everything in-between.) > > LHM > > > In a message dated 11/15/02 11:44:07 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > >HI Steve and all of you, > > > >Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > >Maybe more than you would know. > > > >from > >M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Steve Stubbs" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > >> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. > >> > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single - > >> extremly > >> > nationalistic - country which > >> > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they > >> do the > >> > opposite ! > >> > >> Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > >> mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq > >> correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says he > >> wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying he > >> wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just > >> inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. > >> Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > >> > >> > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the > >> > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > >> > >> Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > >> drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense on > >> the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of > >> work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were > >> reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. It > >> is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested > >> interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. > >> > >> Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political > >> spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. > >> > >> > And what about the arab countries or India ? > >> > >> They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about > >> it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. > >> Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > >> > >> > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails of > >> USA are > >> > allowed "FREE MIXING". > >> > >> Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > >> Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. > >> > >> > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country ? > >> > >> I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. > >> > >> > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is > >> important. > >> > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > >> > >> Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going > >> to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a > >> rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. > >> The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not get > >> beaten too badly. > >> > >> You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > >> accurate view of the situation. > >> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 07:23:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 15:23:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 51079 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 15:23:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 15:23:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 15:23:26 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DnkE-00048G-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:23:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD905B7.6FE8465E@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:22:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: <36.319b85ab.2b09e1f8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > You just don't get it, do you? I said "turn a staff into a snake" (a > trick I learned from Moses ;-) not the other way around. Don't you > think all the Egyptian magicians whom the original Moses fooled, > didn't know that easy trick of turning a snake into a stick? That's > about as easy as the Indian rope trick. The Egyptian "staff to snake" effect is well-documented. There is, at this point, no proof that ANYBODY can do the infamous "Indian Rope Trick"; the latter is quite probably just a legend. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 07:39:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 15:39:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 11966 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 15:39:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 15:39:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 15:39:58 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Do0E-0007A3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:39:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:39:02 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 > The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus > for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ? > > How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics." > > What can be used to unite, not divide ? First thing is to throw out the philosophy of the Frankfurt School, notably Fromm, Reich, and Marcuse. Second, realize that there is more than one way to reach a goal, and just because one does not agree with a method does not mean that one does not agree with the goal. Third is to recognize that one definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, always getting the same results, in the hope that the next time the results will differ. Fourth (related to the 1st) is that any philosophy that is based on falsehood is invalid. The fifth is that you can't force evolution on people; all you can do is make an atmosphere where it is easier for people to evolve. Sixth is to follow Blavatsky's dictates that the Theosophical Society should not get involved in politics except to increase the level of understanding between opposing sides of an issue (that's the Society, NOT individual Theosophists, who are expected to be involved to the extent that it increases the general welfare of humanity as a whole). Seventh is to realize that forcing things into groups of seven is just an expression of maya. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 07:55:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 15:55:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 66383 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 15:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 15:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 15:55:06 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E4D92481A06 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:55:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:49:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all of you, But Bart: Yes, but Theosophy should seek to create socail uplift in the world. But, that is very difficult, when the world is so corrupt, that it has nuclear bombs, and some of those who has them might really use them. The it is a matter of EXISTENCE or non-EXSTENCE, and not a matter of rules like is this politics or is this social uplift to deal with this issue. Don't you agree ? from M. Sufilight with his pals peace and love and patience... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. > > The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus > > for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ? > > > > How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics." > > > > What can be used to unite, not divide ? > > First thing is to throw out the philosophy of the Frankfurt School, > notably Fromm, Reich, and Marcuse. > > Second, realize that there is more than one way to reach a goal, and > just because one does not agree with a method does not mean that one > does not agree with the goal. > > Third is to recognize that one definition of insanity is to do the same > thing over and over again, always getting the same results, in the hope > that the next time the results will differ. > > Fourth (related to the 1st) is that any philosophy that is based on > falsehood is invalid. > > The fifth is that you can't force evolution on people; all you can do is > make an atmosphere where it is easier for people to evolve. > > Sixth is to follow Blavatsky's dictates that the Theosophical Society > should not get involved in politics except to increase the level of > understanding between opposing sides of an issue (that's the Society, > NOT individual Theosophists, who are expected to be involved to the > extent that it increases the general welfare of humanity as a whole). > > Seventh is to realize that forcing things into groups of seven is just > an expression of maya. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From Nisk98114@aol.com Mon Nov 18 08:06:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 16:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 1608 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 16:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 16:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 16:06:02 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.6e.26385339 (3874) for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:05:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6e.26385339.2b0a69dc@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:05:48 EST Subject: RE:globes and so forth... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Although this might not clear up any "figgering" that one might do with globes, rounds and races and yugas, mahayugas and so forth ,that which is given below {snippets) , seems to me, although taken from Buddhism,show Theosophy's constant re-iteration of karma and cycles and it's actual meaning for us as human beings with its constant usage of altruism as a key. And with this comes a question. Do we all think that a total resolution of globes, rounds and so forth will or would come forth, in our minds, in the form of a mandala of some sort? (Do a google search for the word mandala:suggestion) ************************************************************ If one's mind is not turned away from its fascination with life, it will be an obstacle to spiritual paths . One should be mindful of death in that one realizes one will not tarry long in this life; one should consider the incarnations to which fascination can lead and thereby turn the mind away from focus on this life. Attachment to the imagined wonders of a future life should be subdued by thinking about the intrinsic faults of all cyclic existence. Thus the mind will turn towards emancipation. Therefore, the individual with insight will gradually remove all that is discordant with the altruistic mind of enlightenment and cultivate it and all its marks. ********************************************************* From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 08:11:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 16:11:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 6889 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 16:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 16:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 16:11:37 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DoUo-000157-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:11:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD910FF.4965F86@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:10:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 netemara888 wrote: > Dallas, I have been asking other so-called spiritual people for years > that same question: I thought we were supposed to be about > brotherhood? But all I got was no better treatment from them than the > general population. We have not reached a level of evolution to have true Brotherhood yet. All we can do is try. And blindly agreeing with everything the anybody else has to say is a great way for the forces AGAINST Brotherhood to triumph. There are two good pieces of advice for Brotherhood that I have heard. The first was from Dorz Kunz, who said that the key to Brotherhood is to try to like everybody (and if you think LOVING everybody is hard, try to LIKE everybody...). The other I got from Ed Abdill, and from him it was by example. He does not hold a grudge, even for a few minutes. He can disagree with someone both on a rational and emotional level, and quite strongly, on one issue, and have a knock-down drag out with them, and, when it comes to the next issue, work in total cooperation with that person, as if the fight had never taken place. > Brotherhood may be slow in coming, but I think it is coming in the > future. We did not have it then, and we don't have it now, at least > not to my satisfaction. But, once again, it cannot be forced on people until they are ready for it. All we can do is try to convince people of it, and try to create conditions conducive to Brotherhood. This means encouraging positive solutions, and discouraging hate. And to recognize that race, as commonly used, is maya. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 08:48:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 16:48:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 45702 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 16:48:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 16:48:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 16:48:26 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dp4U-00001n-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:48:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD919A0.D09C0D8A@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:47:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theosophists non-evidence and fears to come in the open on Indiancivilisation. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > Brian: It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us > (and the world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine > oriental teachings or not. And how is this relevant to anything? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 08:49:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 16:49:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 24187 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 16:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 16:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 16:49:51 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dp5q-0002Ke-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:49:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD919F5.776EDCFF@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:48:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians References: <6d.2604ff4.2b0a24f8@aol.com> <001401c28f14$df25a7a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > So no racism in USA ? > No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when Martin Luther > King Jr. did > his best to make peace on this Planet ? The United States is far from perfect. Please feel free to name another country which is closer. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 09:00:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 17:00:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 29337 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 17:00:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 17:00:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 17:00:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DpG9-0003X8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:00:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:59:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Yes, but Theosophy should seek to create socail uplift in the world. What is "social uplift"? Real question. > But, that is very difficult, when the world is so corrupt, that > it has nuclear bombs, and some of those who has them might really use > them. You got a workable solution? There's a Nobel Peace Prize in it for you if you have. And that's not necessarily sarcastic. In business, there is something called "The Groucho Syndrome." That's when somebody has a good, original idea, but does not go forward with it because they decide, "If I thought of the idea, then somebody else must have thought of it first." It's based on a Groucho Marx line, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me as a member." The point is that ANYBODY can come up with a good and original idea; the trick is to follow through on it. > The it is a matter of EXISTENCE or non-EXSTENCE, > and not a matter of rules like is this politics or is this social > uplift to deal with this issue. > > Don't you agree ? What is "social uplift"? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 09:08:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 17:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 47452 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 17:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 17:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 17:07:59 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DpNP-0000UZ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:07:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD91E35.99F28854@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:07:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Theosophy Study List Subject: To: Somebody's Name Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Suggestion: Use the subject line to put the SUBJECT of the message. If you want to write a letter to someobody in particular, consider EMAIL. If you think it's sufficiently interesting to everybody to put in the list, then putting "TO: Joe Doe" is a great way of getting people NOT to read it. They'll figure, "It's for Joe Doe, not for me." So all you do is waste bandwidth. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 10:13:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 18:13:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 42338 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 18:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 18:13:58 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FD4D480930 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:13:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000701c28f2d$8586cee0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:08:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all of you, I agree Bart. And what is social uplift you ask. I ask the same ? I think it must be something humanitarian and something positive. Maybe one of your friends has a Dictionary, and then we perhaps will find that one out. I am working on the idea - of a non-violence movement against neuclear weapons a la Martin Luther King Jr. or something else religious like United Religions Initiative (www.uri.org ). Maybe one should contact some of the Journalists - and explain to them the grave situation humanity really are in right now ! Feel free to do your best... from M. Sufilight with my pals peace, love and patience... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Yes, but Theosophy should seek to create socail uplift in the world. > > What is "social uplift"? Real question. > > > But, that is very difficult, when the world is so corrupt, that > > it has nuclear bombs, and some of those who has them might really use > > them. > > You got a workable solution? There's a Nobel Peace Prize in it for you > if you have. And that's not necessarily sarcastic. In business, there is > something called "The Groucho Syndrome." That's when somebody has a > good, original idea, but does not go forward with it because they > decide, "If I thought of the idea, then somebody else must have thought > of it first." It's based on a Groucho Marx line, "I wouldn't belong to > any club that would have me as a member." The point is that ANYBODY can > come up with a good and original idea; the trick is to follow through on > it. > > > The it is a matter of EXISTENCE or non-EXSTENCE, > > and not a matter of rules like is this politics or is this social > > uplift to deal with this issue. > > > > Don't you agree ? > > What is "social uplift"? > > Bart > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 10:15:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 18:15:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 58980 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 18:15:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 18:15:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2002 18:15:39 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:15:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD905B7.6FE8465E@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2963 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.240 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: There is, at > this point, no proof that ANYBODY can do the infamous "Indian Rope > Trick"; the latter is quite probably just a legend. Blavatsky saw it and so have numerous others who have traveled in India. I read an explanation of how the trck was done some years ago but do not remember all the details. You have to do it inside a building because part of the technique is to fill the air with smoke. You could do it at night in a heavily wooded area, but not in a clearing. The rope is thrown into the air and hooked on a wire or wooden beam in the ceiling which the audience cannot see because of the smoke and the way the building is lit. Itf the demo is not done in a building but a wooded area you would have to use a wire strunbg between two trees. That causes the rope to stand up. The rest is legerdemain. You can see how the magician's assistant could climb the rope, then walk on a wire or wooden beam to sneak into the basket while the audience is looking elsewhere. Nobody claims there is anything "occult" about it. There is a certain amount of exaggeratiion on the part of tourists to wow the people back home which explodes the original demo into something even Houdini could not accomplish. Josephus described a demo in which a magician wouild fill a vessel with water and use it to "exorcise" soome possessed person. He would read some gibberish ffrom one of the magical books attributed to Solomon, then the "demon" would come out of the possessedperson and kick over the vessel with water in it to demo that it had gone. There is no question that he saw this, but what he apparently did not figure out was that the exorcist distracted the audience's attention to the possessed person while his assistant kicked ovet the vessel without being observed. Any ten year old with a magic set could do the same miracle. Now suppose someone wanted to accuse me of "unpacking" Josephis' story for the purpose of being an "aggressive skeptic." In that case I would admit that perhaps the story is a miracle story, but that we have a right to expect one performed under better conditions before accepting it as a candidate for evidence that such things occur. With thousands of miracle stories handed down to us from antiquity we can reasonably toss out the ones which are embarrassingly poor evidence and scan the remainder for better quality evidence without being a total infidel. Using that criterion one would have to toss the Ootan Liatto story (and most of the others) but we would end up with a small group of quality stories after throwing out all the low quality stuff. Those high quality stories can then be studied and discussed without cynics thinking we are all a bunch of morons. There is, I believe, some evidence that there are phenomena in the world which challenge our naive assumptions about how the world works. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 10:15:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 18:15:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 92640 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 18:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 18:15:51 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9310E480AD7 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:15:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001901c28f2d$c8e5d140$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <6d.2604ff4.2b0a24f8@aol.com> <001401c28f14$df25a7a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD919F5.776EDCFF@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:10:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bart and all of you, But USA are very important here, don't you think ? from M. Sufilight with peace....etc... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > So no racism in USA ? > > No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when Martin Luther > > King Jr. did > > his best to make peace on this Planet ? > > The United States is far from perfect. > > Please feel free to name another country which is closer. > > Bart > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From levey_steven@hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 10:37:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 3739 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.15.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:37:16 -0800 Received: from 67.227.41.228 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:37:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2002 18:37:16.0540 (UTC) FILETIME=[84E27BC0:01C28F31] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.228] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Dear Eldon-Thank you for Richard Taylor's essay. I believe I read it before but reading now, in the context of approaching Theosophical thought for the perusal of others, makes it sound more useful. The article allows for the freedom of interaction of all students, even those who would misuse the forum provided to cast shadows for their own purposes upon the work of others. Perhaps argumentative or the "bulldog" approachs, mentioned in the article, are not always on purpose. I think its possible for one to become so protective of their own views and wihout realizing what they are doing they lash out at any disscusion of them. I don't believe that there is any justification for this behavior. But I can see how it can happen. We have to be so careful. Thanks again-Steve Levey >From: "Eldon B Tucker" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy >Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:13:22 -0800 > >One knowledgeable Theosophist who is also a scholar of Buddhism, knowing >and studying texts in their original Tibetan and Sanskrit, is Richard >Taylor. He mentioned the origin of the Stanzas of Dzyan in his recent >talk appearing in THEOSOPHY WORLD. I would personally give more weight >to something he said. > >Richard said, > > >There is more than one kind of Tantra. What does Blavatsky say > >about the light side? Some of you may have Volume III of THE > >SECRET DOCTRINE. It may not have been intended for publication. > >I do not know if it is really part of the book. That is beside > >the point. It is a fact that Blavatsky wrote the essays in that > >volume that Annie Besant and friends published. The volume > >consists of a largely-unedited bunch of essays. Even so, > >Blavatsky wrote them. On page 405, she says: > > > >> The Book of Dzyan -- from the Sanskrit word "Dhyan" (mystic > >> meditation) -- is the first volume of the Commentaries upon the > >> seven secret folios of Kiu-te, and a Glossary of public works of > >> the same name. Thirty-five volumes of Kiu-te for exoteric > >> purposes and the use of the layman [not the celibate monks], may > >> be found in the possession of the Tibetan Gelugpa [Yellow Hat] > >> Lamas, in the library of any [Gelugpa] monastery; and also the > >> fourteen books of Commentaries and Annotations on the same by > >> initiated Teachers. > >> > >> Strictly speaking, those 35 books [of Kiu-te] ought to be termed > >> "The Popularized Version" of the Secret Doctrine [that is a > >> unique thing to say, the popular "Secret Doctrine!"], full of > >> myths, blinds, and errors; the fourteen volumes of Commentaries, > >> on the other hand -- with their translations, annotations, and > >> ample glossary of Occult terms, worked out from one small archaic > >> folio [darn, I wish we had this!] THE BOOK OF THE SECRET WISDOM > >> OF THE WORLD -- contain a digest of all the Occult Sciences. > >The comments in square brackets are Richard's. > >There may be other theosophical theories about the origins of the >Stanzas. It would be interesting to review what they are and how we >would explain them philosophically. > >There are many approaches to this subject and to a study of any aspect >of Theosophy. One approach is to understand the philosophy as it stands, >to clearly picture in our minds what it says so that we can consider and >optionally incorporate the idea into our thinking. > >The second approach is evolutionary. We have a responsibility to carry >forward the philosophy, making it real, alive, and growing into the >future. Although timeless truths, like the basic principles of >mathematics, remain ever unchanging, there is much that can be adapted >to the needs of changing times. This is sometimes attacked as >"reinventing Theosophy," but it's something true of any living school of >thought that wants to remain of value in the world. > >The third approach is destructive. Enemies of the philosophy look for >miscellaneous bits of information and quotes easy to misrepresent. They >do not want people to know what Theosophy actually says but rather want >to depict it as something awful so that they can turn away people that >otherwise might find it of interest, come to it, and benefit from it. >This is what the Catholic Church did with its Inquisition, and what some >religiously-ruled nations try to do even today, controlling or even >banning dissenting philosophies and religions. The intent with this >approach is destruction of some school of thought that someone is >opposed to. > >Some people find Theosophy threatening since its ultimate goal is to get >people to think for themselves. This is threatening to any system of >thought that requires blind faith in the dictates of its church >hierarchy. It starts people to question church dogma and perhaps be "led >astray." > >The problem arises when people get narrow-minded. They start thinking >their approach to God, spirituality, enlightenment, perfection, a better >world, etc. is the only one, and that everyone must be converted for >their own good. We read that this is the cause of 2/3 of the world's >evil (the other 1/3 being from selfishness). I'd tend to agree. There >are too many missionaries and jihad warriors with sword, gun, bomb, or >pen and pencil that are out to destroy enemies of their "one, true >faith." It is ironic that they think they are battling for bringing >light into the world, whereas they are actually the cause of the world's >evil! > >I'd say that there's nothing to battle for except a clearer view of the >truth, and the battlefield is in our own minds, not in beating up and >bruising the minds of others. I think that most of us are quite able to >sit together and have a lively exchange without making fists and coming >to blows. I hope there's none that are like angry pitbull dogs, seeking >to bite our legs with dogged persistence, unable to stop and join into >any reasonable interchange. > >The best way to deal with would be missionaries, for instance, those >picturing themselves as "Daniel in the lion's den," is to get to the >philosophical basis for their beliefs. Discuss what Theosophy says and >unravel their dogma. The biggest threat to them is to question their >faith and beliefs, and they cannot help doing so when it comes up for >intelligent discussion. We had one on theos-l many years before >theos-talk started. Within a month, he quickly tired, when he found he >wasn't getting anywhere with us, that we didn't think his ideas were >perls of wisdom, but rather saw though them to depths of understanding >he hadn't seen before in his church. > >The only defense that a would-be missionary in his position has is to >avoid any discussion of his beliefs and philosophy. If he never says >what he thinks and why, it would fall apart before his eyes as people >start discussing it in an intelligent fashion outside of the thought >control of his church. He would conceal his personal background and >beliefs and only seek to find or fabricate excuses for his would-be >converts to doubt their beliefs and ripen them for "conversion" to a >"belief in the one God." > >Anyone with a modest practice in theosophical thought would rarely make >such a convert. They know too much and can see though the illogic >presented as religious dogma by established churches. Furthermore, they >would have learned a bit how to read between the lines and get beyond >literal interpretations of religious texts, so they see beyond any >short-comings of how theosophical books may have been written as well as >seeing beyond the short-comings in religious texts like the Bible, >Koran, Gita, Book of Mormon, and other man-written books attributed to >divine inspiration. > >Truth is paramount and acquiring skills to approach it is the primary >goal, as I see it, of the theosophical movement. There is much >metaphysics that may be of other value, but it's only fragmentary >outside the Mysteries. As in other things in life, we each take what we >find of value from it and share as we can, even when we may face at >times people that seem to not understand it and only seem interested in >mocking, obscuring, and killing it out. > >-- Eldon > > > > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 11:14:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 19:14:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 48279 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 19:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 19:14:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 19:14:51 -0000 Received: from pool0599.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.14.89] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DrM3-0001YH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:14:44 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:10:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Friend: When you write me, do you think of my "color" -- of the skin? or of the mind and the whole man? I, for instance, don't consider it relevant. Dal -----Original Message----- From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:02 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Dallas, I have been asking other so-called spiritual people for years that same question: I thought we were supposed to be about brotherhood? But all I got was no better treatment from them than the general population. I am not saying that is true here, but perhaps Theosophists do get it right, I don't know. We have said here that HPB was a product of her times, well so were the Presidents who had slaves and impregnated them also a product of their times. Brotherhood may be slow in coming, but I think it is coming in the future. We did not have it then, and we don't have it now, at least not to my satisfaction. But I ain't nobody. I discuss race and the like because it tells a story just like the address you live at. We have all changed addresses during our many lives here, and the race is merely an address. I have gone so far to see when I trace lives that people look the same throughout each life regardless to what race they incarnate into!! BUT I can't get any white people to see it my way, so I just keep writing and talking to myself. I agree 100%- --but it is the powers that be that don't want to give an inch. Netemara ************* --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Nov 18 2002 > > Re: Race and Politics? > > Dear Netemara: > > The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus > for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ? > > How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics." > > What can be used to unite, not divide ? > > How can we speak casually of war and killing and making forcible > changes in other countries' governments? As an exaggerated example: > How would any one of us like a unit of policemen camped in our homes > to see we maintain the Law ? [ Do we have a right to be "crazy?" > When do our neighbours have a "right" to interfere ? What, then > become their responsibilities ? ] > > Yes, there are objectionable "dictators." and they need to be > restrained, whether in Iraq or in Libya, or anywhere. But, > fundamentally it is up to the local people to effect changes, not > external might, which is also tainted with a greed for oil, etc..., > and for the power that it represents. > > Any one with any discernment know that Iraq is unable to endure any > contest of might with the US, or the united UN. But, can any one > predict the future? We may secure a peace by force and removal of a > current trouble maker, but does that cure the disease ? What, > fundamentally is the disease ? Can it ever be forcefully eradicated, > and health forced in ? What will be the conditions 20, 50, 100 years > from now ? > > Is it not strange that in a Theosophical chat-group (where brotherhood > is the basic criterion) we have discussions about "race" and > "politics?" What would be a Theosophical basis for consideration? > > If we, each of us, are Immortal Souls, then our present incarnation is > only one of a great series, where we have lived in many "races" and > different "sexes," and have played with "politics" down the ages -- > only we don't remember the details. > > One thing is certain: our present inclination, and what we know in > our hearts, indicates WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED AND STORED in our > characters. We all know the difference between selfishness and > compassion. > > Theosophy teaches compassion., not the divisions of hatred and > prejudice. > > So why should we concern ourselves with the present day arguments > motivated by either greed or parochialism, and marked by an > indifference to human suffering, if it is sufficiently far away from > our doorstep and neighbourhood. > > Do we think at all of the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere who are > affected by the armed incursions of various "peace-keeping" military > units and men? > > How can one keep peace by armed might? Is that rue fundamental > justice ? > > Dallas > > -----Original Message----- > From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@y...] > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:38 AM > To: theos-talk@y... > Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant > white as in 'wh... > > To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB: > > I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that > blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and > AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got the > books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From other > African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me > be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and the > like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not deter > US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read > them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish > reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that > HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew > up on it ever since. > > I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a reason, > as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it > is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up > people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read on > into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work > 100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or > whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to > keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding. > > Netemara > > **************** > > -- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very > enlightened beings > > bring this(below) into the world. > > FIRE > > Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT. > > The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that > he brought > > not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war. > > What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder? > > BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything , > good , bad > > or indifferent , in its entirety. > > Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you > think?).Despondency > > must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get > out of it. > > I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or > enjoy all > > in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The > coinage of > > the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine > Nature) This > > former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin. > > This FIRE is very potent, one might think. > > And so it is. > > Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE, > don't you > > think. > > So, then , what happens next? > > A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student. > > How delicious, after that "roasting". > > Ahhhhhh. > > PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us. > > ======================================================== > > > > In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > bhakti.eohn@v... writes: > > > > > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant > white as > > > in 'white' race. " > > > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time > > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami) > > > Reply-to: > > theos-talk@y... > > > To: theos-talk@y... > > > > > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL, > > > > > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU... > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > wrote: > > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes: > > > > > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' > race. > > > > > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME > INTERPRETED > > > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE' > AS > > > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE > TARA'. > > > > > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK > > > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS > > > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS. > > > > > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF > > > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY > > > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE > > > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED > ANTI- > > > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY > IMPRESSIVE > > > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN > FACT, IN > > > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST > > > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL > POST > > > THAT NOTE HERE. > > > > > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL > WRITINGS > > > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS > FROM A > > > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST > AND > > > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT > IS > > > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE > AND > > > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU > WHO > > > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING > FOR > > > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS. > BOTH > > > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE > WANTED > > > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR ! > > > > > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND > CONTINUES > > > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE > WILL > > > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. > > > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM > HUMANITY'S > > > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE > > > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS > WORLD > > > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, > THAT > > > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE > THIS > > > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT > > > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A > PROFOUNDLY > > > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS > SIMPLY > > > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. > I AM > > > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER- > MINDED > > > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI > > > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED > LOOSE > > > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS > AND > > > SETTLE THERE. > > > > > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF > IDEAS > > > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN > THOSE > > > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. > > > > > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or > the > > > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing? > > > > > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE > CONTEXT OF > > > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS. > > > > > > Whether they are > > > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White > Ascended > > > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term) > makes > > > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races > idea > > > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit > > > > literatures means 'white race.'" > > > > > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA / > ARYAN > > > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY > NAME > > > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), > > > HARA (SHIVA), > > > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ), > > > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA), > > > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER), > > > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES, > > > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES, > > > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS > > > HELI OF THE HELLENES > > > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS) > > > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA) > > > SOLE OF THE ROMANS > > > ETC. > > > > > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR > > > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW > ELYM, > > > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA, > ETC., > > > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF- > FROM > > > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC. > > > > > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'. > > > > > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE. > > > > > > > Quoted from: > > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html > > > > > > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references > to > > > HPB's > > > > writings where we could find support for his statements. > > > > > > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood > or > > > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does > she > > > > use these terms? > > > > > > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE > under > > > > the term "Aryan(s) Race." > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth > > > > > > > > adept astronomers of II 699 > > > > adepts I vii; II 495 > > > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495 > > > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576 > > > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328 > > > > Arabs are later II 200 > > > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n > > > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433 > > > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352 > > > > Atlanteans taught II 426 > > > > born in the north II 768 > > > > branches of II 106 > > > > bull symbolizes II 533 > > > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452 > > > > Carlyle q on II 470 > > > > cataclysm will destroy II 445 > > > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n > > > > common religion before separation I xxix > > > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603 > > > > decimal system I 360-2 > > > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426 > > > > dvijas II 469 > > > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743 > > > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9 > > > > era, figures given II 68n > > > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425 > > > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4 > > > > Fohat key to, religions I 673 > > > > height of, after third subrace II 753 > > > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406 > > > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1 > > > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130 > > > > initiated, view of Moon I 396 > > > > Kabbala came fr I 376 > > > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n > > > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534 > > > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5 > > > > languages II 199-200 &nn > > > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356 > > > > many colors of II 249-50 > > > > migrated to India II 609 > > > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743 > > > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603 > > > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n > > > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356 > > > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741 > > > > Peris or Izeds were II 394 > > > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387 > > > > Rama first divine king of II 495 > > > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526 > > > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10 > > > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750 > > > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200 > &n > > > > separated two - three million years ago II 425 > > > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614 > > > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31 > > > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158 > > > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100 > > > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3 > > > > taught emanation, not creation II 54 > > > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746 > > > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 18 11:15:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 19:15:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 76830 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 19:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 19:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 19:15:23 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.3] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18DrMQ-0002sV-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:15:07 -0500 Message-ID: <3DD93C84.93895165@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:16:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re subject headings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bart wrote: <> Would seem to me that if a discussion list is public enough, (obviously enough, to begin with), then it should be apparent enough (to all?) that the subject headings (such as "to Joe") on such lists/posts are, or ought to be, an indication about the theme of the post, instead, rather than an indication of privacy. Of course, on the other hand, some of us may occasionally wish to post private messages publically . . . ? Really? ^:-) Don't we all get each other's private email addresses in all our public postings? And what's the point of apologizing for entering a public discussion thread started by, say, two participants, when everybody knows that if they wanted their discussion to be private they could exchange emails privately. Or did I overlook something . . . ? Of course, on the other hand, (or first hand?), manas tends to be "human" and "courteous," and tentative, all that, but . . . And not to mention newbies like me who might not know if they're coming or going on account of speculating so much. Speculatively, Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 11:24:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 19:24:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 24933 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 19:24:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 19:24:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 19:24:05 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DrV7-0002FQ-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:24:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD93E14.850CD6DA@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:23:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> <000701c28f2d$8586cee0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > I agree Bart. > And what is social uplift you ask. > I ask the same ? Nope. You're the one who used the term. Therefore, if you couldn't define it, then you would using terms without knowing what they mean. Which would mean that you are spouting nonsense. I am assuming that you are not, therefore, taking the contrapositive, you know what it means. > I think it must be something humanitarian and something positive. > Maybe one of your friends has a Dictionary, and then we perhaps will > find that one out. Dictionary definitions won't help with this one. We are trying to discuss concepts, not twisting around words (always with the exception of Brian). > I am working on the idea - of a non-violence movement against neuclear > weapons a la Martin Luther King Jr. or something else religious like > United Religions Initiative (www.uri.org ). Maybe one should contact > some of the Journalists - and explain to them the grave situation > humanity really are in right now ! Do you understand Martin Luther King's/ Gandhi's/ Thoreau's concepts of civil disobedience? It's a great tool against institutional oppression, but not useful against a single (or small handful) of nutcases. Or a nation of nutcases. If the goal of one side is to kill the members of the other side, then non-violence on the part of the would-be victims only ensures the peace of the grave. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 11:33:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 19:33:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 10830 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 19:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 19:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 19:33:23 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dre6-0002JG-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:33:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD94040.24140752@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:32:16 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > There is, at > > this point, no proof that ANYBODY can do the infamous "Indian Rope > > Trick"; the latter is quite probably just a legend. > > Blavatsky saw it and so have numerous others who have traveled in > India. Do you have documentation about Blavatsky seeing it? Because there has been a large cash reward offered for over a century for anybody who can perform the trick, and it is still uncollected. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 12:01:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 66177 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:01:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Rope tricks Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD94040.24140752@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 844 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.227.79 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Do you have documentation about Blavatsky seeing it? Because there has > been a large cash reward offered for over a century for anybody who can > perform the trick, and it is still uncollected. Look in Neff's nook on Blavatsky which collects her "memoirs". It has been awhile since I read that book, but I am fairly sure she claimed to have seen the rope trick. As for the reward, some of those appear to be bogus. There is a reward for ANYONE who can peform ANY unusual phenomenon and it is uncollected, but that is not because candidates have not come forth. If the reward is for real I think arrangement could be made for the trick to e perfomed since it is not all that difficult. If it is not for real (as I suspect it is not) then nobody would bother with it From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 12:17:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 20:17:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 20611 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 20:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 20:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 20:17:06 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DsKQ-0006Mf-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:17:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD94A7D.13EF05C9@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:15:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rope tricks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > those appear to be bogus. There is a reward for ANYONE who can > peform ANY unusual phenomenon and it is uncollected, but that is not > because candidates have not come forth. If the reward is for real I > think arrangement could be made for the trick to e perfomed since it > is not all that difficult. If it is not for real (as I suspect it is > not) then nobody would bother with it There are different rewards out there. The one for the Indian Rope Trick allows for trickery to be used. The JREF reward (which is the former) specifically does NOT allow trickery to be used. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 12:52:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 20:52:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 23477 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 20:52:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 20:52:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 20:52:21 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CB6B42638E1 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:52:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000701c28f43$a54a83a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> <000701c28f2d$8586cee0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD93E14.850CD6DA@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:47:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 His Bart and all of you, Hemm... What is Soul-force to you Bart ? I mean that force and fire which waterhoses can't water down ! "Social uplift" is what makes people by the name of Bart feel good ! ParaBrahman is good within good... And that Bart is NOT THIS and NOT THAT...and quite undescribeable ... You dig that ? Bart wrote: "It's a great tool against institutional oppression, > but not useful against a single (or small handful) of nutcases. Or a > nation of nutcases." I will deeply question that Bart taking the above in to consideration...! I think one has to be focused, determant and patient. I have heard that ParaBrahman is especially good and wise when we are talking about "nutcases" ( i.e. small boxes and the like with food inside...) What is a "nutcase" to you Bart ? (You're the one who used the term.) Maybe you are one of them, and you don't even know that ? from M. Sufilight with eeehmm simplifications...and some impatient rugrats watching the Simpsons >:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > I agree Bart. > > And what is social uplift you ask. > > I ask the same ? > > Nope. You're the one who used the term. Therefore, if you couldn't > define it, then you would using terms without knowing what they mean. > Which would mean that you are spouting nonsense. I am assuming that you > are not, therefore, taking the contrapositive, you know what it means. > > > I think it must be something humanitarian and something positive. > > Maybe one of your friends has a Dictionary, and then we perhaps will > > find that one out. > > Dictionary definitions won't help with this one. We are trying to > discuss concepts, not twisting around words (always with the exception > of Brian). > > > I am working on the idea - of a non-violence movement against neuclear > > weapons a la Martin Luther King Jr. or something else religious like > > United Religions Initiative (www.uri.org ). Maybe one should contact > > some of the Journalists - and explain to them the grave situation > > humanity really are in right now ! > > Do you understand Martin Luther King's/ Gandhi's/ Thoreau's concepts of > civil disobedience? It's a great tool against institutional oppression, > but not useful against a single (or small handful) of nutcases. Or a > nation of nutcases. If the goal of one side is to kill the members of > the other side, then non-violence on the part of the would-be victims > only ensures the peace of the grave. > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 13:02:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 21:02:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 46293 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 21:02:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 21:02:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 21:02:35 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dt2Q-0006NK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:02:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD95522.ECF7DC21@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:01:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> <000701c28f2d$8586cee0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD93E14.850CD6DA@sprynet.com> <000701c28f43$a54a83a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Hemm... > What is Soul-force to you Bart ? Two unrelated words jumbled together to make nonsense sound like something deep. > I mean that force and fire which waterhoses can't water down ! > "Social uplift" is what makes people by the name of Bart feel good ! So, you believe that we should eliminate higher consciousness and live entirely in the whim of the moment to please our emotions? Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 18 13:36:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 18 Nov 2002 21:36:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 31336 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 21:36:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2002 21:36:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 21:36:50 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D26FF263E26 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:36:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002301c28f49$dcc0c280$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> <00e901c28f1a$1eb07e40$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD91C73.78B37FFF@sprynet.com> <000701c28f2d$8586cee0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD93E14.850CD6DA@sprynet.com> <000701c28f43$a54a83a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <3DD95522.ECF7DC21@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:31:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Bart anad all of you, Well Bart, is that what I get, when I in my previous email referred to that "ParaBrahman is good within good... And that Bart is NOT THIS and NOT THAT...and quite undescribeable ... You dig that ?" How very theosophical Bart...or should I say 'thyphical'... from M. Sufilight with a great loss for the cause on non-voilence...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Hemm... > > What is Soul-force to you Bart ? > > Two unrelated words jumbled together to make nonsense sound like > something deep. > > > I mean that force and fire which waterhoses can't water down ! > > "Social uplift" is what makes people by the name of Bart feel good ! > > So, you believe that we should eliminate higher consciousness and live > entirely in the whim of the moment to please our emotions? > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 16:16:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 00:16:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 83892 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 00:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 00:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 00:16:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 00:16:04 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:16:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rope tricks Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD94A7D.13EF05C9@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1532 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.43.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > There are different rewards out there. The one for the Indian Rope > Trick allows for trickery to be used. The JREF reward (which is the > former) specifically does NOT allow trickery to be used. There is something wrong, then, because the rope trick has been performed. After reading your mail I went to my vast library and pulled down John A. Keel's book JADOO. In his travels through India he met a fakir who did the rope trick in his youth, then dumped fakery for fakiry, which is to say, real phenomena. Keel gives a long description of how the trick is done, based on what the fakir said amd says the horizontal wire works because everyone assumes there is something about the VERTICAL rope. The psychology of the audience creates one of the misdirections which makes the trick work, in other words. There are many other details in the book (which you can read at the 42nd street library if it matters) but the trick is rarely if ever performed today, like burial alive, the mango tree trick, and other famous Indian stunts. All of these were done regularly when Blavatsky was in India. I have not checked the book, but I believe there are some words about the rope trick in ISIS UNVEILED. I remain persuaded that the offer of money is a bogus offer. Ditto with the Randi and other offers which mysteriously are never redeemed. There are plenty of pros like David Copperfield or Doug Henning who could do this trick given an incentive. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 17:18:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 01:18:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 94630 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 01:18:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 01:18:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 01:18:03 -0000 Received: from pool0325.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.19.70] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dx1a-0005ZX-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:17:58 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:14:02 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3DD94040.24140752@sprynet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 19 2--2 Dear Friends: Indian rope Trick, etc.. eye witnesses Here are some passages that give such evidence: =================================== Re: Psychic Phenomena described in ISIS UNVEILED Dear Friends: Some may be interested in the evidence that H P B gave in ISIS UNVEILED on the subject of psychic phenomena and its laws. =============================== I U (Vol. I) -- On Psychic Phenomena In 1877, in ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. I, pp. 466... on, H P B gives us the basis for this article which was published after her death (May 8th 1891) in August 1893 [ Courtesy of BLAVATSKY NET and THEOSOPHICAL UNIVERSITY PRESS, Pasadena, CA. ] From the pages of ISIS UNVEILED reproduced below, you will see how in some places the text is very similar to the text of the article just posted a few days ago. Here are some pages from Vol. I of ISIS UNVEILED which speak for themselves. Among these will be found the official report to Queen Elizabeth of England of a delegation she had sent to visit JEHANGHIR, THE MOGUL EMPEROR OF INDIA IN 1615 -- some 400 years ago. (see p. 457 and p. 474) --------------------------------- ISIS UNVEILED Vol. I 473 THE ACME OF ILLUSION. it will be necessary to quote him as well as the others in full, in order to show how closely their evidence tallies. The Arab traveller was present at a great entertainment at the court of the Viceroy of Khansa. 'That same night a juggler, who was one of the Khan's slaves, made his appearance, and the Amir said to him, "Come and show us some of your marvels." Upon this he took a wooden ball, with several holes in it, through which long thongs were passed, and laying hold of one of these, slung it into the air. It went so high that we lost sight of it altogether. . . . (We were in the middle of the palace-court.) There now remained only a little of the end of a thong in the conjurer's hand, and he desired one of the boys who assisted him to lay hold of it and mount. He did so, climbing by the thong, and we lost sight of him also! The conjurer then called to him three times, but, getting no answer, he snatched up a knife as if in a great rage, laid hold of the thong, and disappeared also! By and bye, he threw down one of the boy's hands, then a foot, then the other hand, and then the other foot, then the trunk, and last of all the head! Then he came down himself, puffing and panting, and with his clothes all bloody kissed the ground before the Amir, and said something to him in Chinese. The Amir gave some order in reply, and our friend then took the lad's limbs, laid them together in their places, and gave a kick, when, presto! there was the boy, who got up and stood before us! All this astonished me beyond measure, and I had an attack of palpitation like that which overcame me once before in the presence of the Sultan of India, when he showed me something of the same kind. They gave me a cordial, however, which cured the attack. The Kaji Afkharuddin was next to me, and quoth he, "Wallah! 't is my opinion there has been neither going up nor coming down, neither marring, nor mending! 'T is all hocus-pocus!" ' " And who doubts but that it is a "hocus-pocus," an illusion, or Maya, as the Hindus express it? But when such an illusion can be forced on, say, ten thousand people at the same time, as we have seen it performed during a public festival, surely the means by which such an astounding hallucination can be produced merits the attention of science! When by such magic a man who stands before you, in a room, the doors of which you have closed and of which the keys are in your hand, suddenly disappears, vanishes like a flash of light, and you see him nowhere but hear his voice from different parts of the room addressing you and laughing at your perplexity, surely such an art is not unworthy either of Mr. Huxley or Dr. Carpenter. Is it not quite as well worth spending time over, as the lesser mystery -- why barnyard cocks crow at midnight? What Ibn Batuta, the Moor, saw in China about the year 1348, Colonel Yule shows Edward Melton, "an Anglo-Dutch traveller," witnessing 474 Magical Performances before Emperor Jehanghir [ 1615 A D] in Batavia about the year 1670: "One of the same gang" (of conjurers), says Melton,* "took a small ball of cord, and grasping one end of the cord in his hand slung the other up into the air with such force that its extremity was beyond reach of our sight. He then climbed up the cord with indescribable swiftness. . . . I stood full of astonishment, not conceiving where he had disappeared; when lo! a leg came tumbling down out of the air. A moment later a hand came down, etc. . . . In short, all the members of the body came successively tumbling from the air and were cast together by the attendant into the basket. The last fragment of all was the head, and no sooner had that touched the ground than he who had snatched up all the limbs and put them in the basket, turned them all out again topsy turvy. Then straightway we saw with these eyes all those limbs creep together again, and, in short, form a whole man, who at once could stand and go just as before without showing the least damage! . . . Never in my life was I so astonished . . . and I doubted now no longer that these misguided men did it by the help of the Devil." Jehanghir Performance In the memoirs of the Emperor Jahangire, the performances of seven jugglers from Bengal, who exhibited before him, are thus described: "Ninth. They produced a man whom they divided limb from limb, actually severing his head from the body. They scattered these mutilated members along the ground, and in this state they lay some time. They then extended a sheet over the spot, and one of the men putting himself under the sheet, in a few minutes came from below, followed by the individual supposed to have been cut into joints, in perfect health and condition. . . . Twenty-third. They produced a chain of fifty cubits in length, and in my presence threw one end of it toward the sky, where it remained as if fastened to something in the air. A dog was then brought forward and being placed at the lower end of the chain, immediately ran up, and reaching the other end, immediately disappeared in the air. In the same manner a hog, a panther, a lion, and a tiger were successively sent up the chain, and all equally disappeared at the upper end of the chain. At last they took down the chain, and put it into the bag, no one ever discovering in what way the different animals were made to vanish into the air in the mysterious manner above described."** ----------------------------- I am inserting here a few paragraphs on this remarkable performance taken from some earlier pages in ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. I. pp. 457-8 which supplement this account. -- DTB ---------------------------------- As we always like to strengthen our arguments by testimonies other than our own, it may be well to present the opinion of a daily paper, the Boston Herald, as to phenomena in general and mediums in particular. Having encountered sad failures with some dishonest persons, who may or may not be mediumistic, the writer went to the trouble of ascertaining as to some wonders said to be produced in India, and compares them with those of modern thaumaturgy. "The medium of the present day," he says, "bears a closer resemblance, in methods and manipulations, to the well-known conjurer of history, than any other representative of the magic art. How far short he still remains of the performances of his prototypes is illustrated below. In 1615 a delegation of highly-educated and distinguished men from the English East India Company visited the Emperor Jehangire. While on their mission they witnessed many most wonderful performances, almost causing them to discredit their senses, and far beyond any hint even of solution. A party of Bengalese conjurers and jugglers, showing their art before the emperor, were desired to produce upon the spot, and from seed, ten mulberry trees. They immediately planted ten seeds, which, in a few minutes produced as many trees. The ground divided over the spot where a seed was planted, tiny leaves appeared, at once followed by slender shoots, which rapidly gained elevation, putting out leaves and twigs and branches, finally spreading wide in the air, budding, blossoming and yielding fruit, which matured upon the spot, and was found to be excellent. And this before the beholder had turned away his eyes. Fig, almond, mango, and walnut trees were at the same time under like conditions produced, yielding the fruit which belonged to each. Wonder succeeded wonder. The branches were filled with birds of beautiful plumage flitting about among the leaves and singing sweet notes. The leaves turned to russet, fell from their places, branches and twigs withered, and 458 finally the trees sank back into the earth, out of which they had all sprung within the hour. "Another had a bow and about fifty steel-pointed arrows. He shot an arrow into the air, when, lo! the arrow became fixed in space at a considerable height. Another and another arrow was sent off, each fixing itself in the shaft of the preceding, until all formed a chain of arrows in the air, excepting the last shot, which, striking the chain, brought the whole to the ground in detachments. "They set up two common tents facing each other, and about a bow-shot apart. These tents were critically examined by the spectators, as are the cabinets of the mediums, and pronounced empty. The tents were fastened to the ground all around. The lookers-on were then invited to choose what animals or birds they would have issue from these tents to engage in a battle. Khaun-e-Jahaun incredulously asked to see a fight between ostriches. In a few minutes an ostrich came out from each tent rushed to combat with deadly earnestness, and from them the blood soon began to stream; but they were so nearly matched that neither could win the victory, and they were at last separated by the conjurers and conveyed within the tents. After this the varied demands of the spectators for birds and animals were exactly complied with, always with the same results. "A large cauldron was set, and into it a quantity of rice thrown. Without the sign of fire this rice soon began to boil, and out from the cauldron was taken more than one hundred platters of cooked rice, with a stewed fowl at the top of each. This trick is performed on a smaller scale by the most ordinary fakirs of the present day. "But space fails to give opportunity for illustrating, from the records of the past, how the miserably tame performances -- by comparison -- of the mediums of the present day were pale and overshadowed by those of other days and more adroit peoples. There is not a wonderful feature in any of the so-called phenomena or manifestations which was not, nay, which is not now more than duplicated by other skilful performers, whose connection with earth, and earth alone, is too evident to be doubted, even if the fact was not supported by their own testimony." End of insert DTB ---------------------------------------------------- ** "Memoirs of the Emperor Jahangire," pp. 99, 102. =================================================== 468 We were nine persons in all -- seven men and two women, one of the latter a native. Besides us, there were in the room, the young tiger, intensely occupied on a bone; a wanderoo, or lion-monkey, which, with its black coat and snow-white goatee and whiskers, and cunning, sparkling eyes, looked the personification of mischief; and a beautiful golden oriole, quietly cleaning its radiant-colored tail on a perch, placed near a large window of the veranda. In India, "spiritual" seances are not held in the dark, as in America; and no conditions, but perfect silence and harmony, are required. It was in the full glare of daylight streaming through the opened doors and windows, with a far-away buzz of life from the neighboring forests, and jungles sending us the echo of myriads of insects, birds, and animals. We sat in the midst of a garden in which the house was built, and instead of breathing the stifling "We then examined the cobras. Paralyzed by magnetic influence, they lay at full length on the ground. On taking them up we found them stiff as sticks. They were in a state of complete catalepsy. The fakir then awakened them, on which they returned and again coiled themselves round his body. We inquired whether he could make us feel his influence. He made a few passes over our legs, and instantly we lost the use of these limbs; we could not leave our seats. He released us a easily as he had paralyzed us. "Chibh-Chondor closed his seance by experimenting upon inanimate objects. By mere passes with his hands in the direction of the object to be acted upon, and without leaving his seat, he paled and extinguished lights in the furthest parts of the room, moved the furniture, including the divans upon which we sat, opened and closed doors. Catching sight of a Hindu who was drawing water from a well in the garden, he made a pass in his direction, and the rope suddenly stopped in its descent, resisting all the efforts of the astonished gardener. With another pass the rope again descended. "I asked Chibh-Chondor: 'Do you employ the same means in acting upon inanimate objects that you do upon living creatures?' "He replied, 'I have only one means.' " 'What is it?' " 'The will. Man, who is the end of all intellectual and material forces, must dominate over all. The Brahmans know nothing besides this.' " ... "There are certain men whom the Tartars honor above all in the world," says Friar Ricold, "viz., the Baxitae, who are a kind of idol-priests. These are men from India, persons of deep wisdom, well-conducted and of the gravest morals. They are usually with magic arts . . . they exhibit many illusions, and predict future events. For instance, one of eminence among them was said to fly; but the truth, however, was as it proved, that he did not fly, but did walk close to the surface of the ground without touching it; and would seem to sit down without having any substance to support him.** This last performance was witnessed by Ibn Batuta, at Delhi," adds Colonel Yule, who quotes the friar in the Book of Ser Marco Polo, "in the presence of Sultan Mahomet Tughlak; and it was professedly exhibited by a Brahman at Madras in the present century, a descendant doubtless of those Brahmans whom Apollonius saw walking two cubits from the ground. It is also described by the worthy Francis Valentyn, as a performance known and practiced in his own day in India. It is related, he says, that 'a man will first go and sit on three sticks put together so as to form a tripod; after which, first one stick, then a second, then a third shall be removed from under him, and the man shall not fall but shall still remain sitting in the air! Yet I have spoken with two friends who had seen this at one and the same time; and one of them, I may add, mistrusting his own eyes, had taken the trouble to feel about with a long stick if there were nothing on which the body rested; yet, as the gentleman told me, he could neither feel nor see any such thing.' " We have stated elsewhere that the same thing was accomplished last year, before the Prince of Wales and his suite. Such feats as the above are nothing in comparison to what is done by professed jugglers; "feats," remarks the above-quoted author, "which might be regarded as simply inventions if told by one author only, but which seem to deserve prominent notice from being recounted by a series of authors, certainly independent of one another, and writing at long intervals of time and place. Our first witness is Ibn Batuta, and ** Col. H. Yule: "The Book of Ser Marco Polo," vol. i., p. 308. ========================================= Some of this is most interesting. Best wishes, Dallas ==================== -----Original Message----- From: Bart L Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 11:32 AM To: Subject: INDIAN ROPE TRICK & So was materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Steve S wrote: > > --- In theos-talk wrote: > There is, at this point, no proof that ANYBODY can do the infamous "Indian Rope > Trick"; the latter is quite probably just a legend. > > Blavatsky saw it and so have numerous others who have traveled in > India. Do you have documentation about Blavatsky seeing it? Because there has been a large cash reward offered for over a century for anybody who can perform the trick, and it is still uncollected. Bart L From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 18 17:18:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 01:18:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 42998 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 01:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 01:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 01:18:35 -0000 Received: from pool0325.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.19.70] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dx23-0005ZX-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:18:27 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE:cycles Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:14:26 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 18 2002 Dear Friends: This is interesting, and to help, a little study seems indicated to familiarize ones' self with Theosophical concepts and vocabulary. It might be a good idea to read The SECRET DOCTRINE in this regard or at least look at the table of contents of the 1st Volume, and selectively read the passages and pages where this is covered. However in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY we are given a synopsis, read chapters 3, 4, and 14. ------------------- 1 The Earth Chain Coming now to our Earth the view put forward by Theosophy regarding its genesis, its evolution and the evolution of the Human, Animal and other Monads, is quite different from modern ideas, and in some things contrary to accepted theories. But the theories of today are not stable. They change with each century, while the Theosophical one never alters because, in the opinion of those Elder Brothers who have caused its repromulgation and pointed to its confirmation in ancient books, it is but a statement of facts in nature. The modern theory is, on the contrary, always speculative, changeable, and continually altered. Following the general plan outlined in preceding pages, the Earth is sevenfold. It is an entity and not a mere lump of gross matter. And being thus an entity of a septenary nature there must be six other globes which roll with it in space. This company of seven globes has been called the "Earth Chain," the "Planetary Chain." In Esoteric Buddhism this is clearly stated, but there a rather hard and fast materialistic view of it is given and the reader led to believe that the doctrine speaks of seven distinct globes, all separated from though connected with each other. One is forced to conclude that the author meant to say that the globe Earth is as distinct from the other six as Venus is from Mars. This is not the doctrine. The earth is one of seven globes, in respect to man's consciousness only, because when he functions on one of the seven he perceives it as a distinct globe and does not see the other six. This is in perfect correspondence with man himself who has six other constituents of which only the gross body is visible to him because he is now functioning on the Earth -- or the fourth globe -- and his body represents the Earth. The whole seven "globes" constitute one single mass or great globe and they all interpenetrate each other. But we have to say "globe," because the ultimate shape is globular or spherical. If one relies too closely on the explanation made by Mr. Sinnett it might be supposed that the globes did not interpenetrate each other but were connected by currents or lines of magnetic force. And if too close attention is paid to the diagrams used in the Secret Doctrine to illustrate the scheme, without paying due regard to the explanations and cautions given by H. P. Blavatsky, the same error may be made. But both she and her Adept teachers say, that the seven globes of our chain are in "coadunition with each other but not in consubstantiality." (Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 166, first edition.) This is further enforced by cautions not to rely on statistics or plane surface diagrams, but to look at the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of the theory as stated in English. Thus from the very source of Mr. Sinnett's book we have the statement, that these globes are united in one mass though differing from each other in substance, and that this difference of substance is due to change of center of consciousness. The Earth Chain of seven globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven globes, and that former family of seven was the moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth globe of the old chain. When that former vast entity composed of the Moon and six others, all united in one mass, reached its limit of life it died just as any being dies. Each one of the seven sent its energies into space and gave similar life or vibration to cosmic dust -- matter, -- and the total cohesive force of the whole kept the seven energies together. This resulted in the evolving of the present Earth Chain of seven centers of energy or evolution combined in one mass. As the Moon was the fourth of the old series it is on the same plane of perception as the Earth, and as we are now confined in our consciousness largely to Earth we are able only to see one of the old seven -- to wit: our Moon. When we are functioning on any of the other seven we will perceive in our sky the corresponding old corpse which will then be a Moon, and we will not see the present Moon. Venus, Mars, Mercury and other visible planets are all fourth-plane globes of distinct planetary masses and for that reason are visible to us, their companion six centers of energy and consciousness being invisible. All diagrams on plane surfaces will only becloud the theory because a diagram necessitates linear divisions. The stream or mass of Egos which evolves on the seven globes of our chain is limited in number, yet the actual quantity is enormous. For though the universe is limitless and infinite, yet in any particular portion of Cosmos in which manifestation and evolution have begun there is a limit to the extent of manifestation and to the number of Egos engaged therein. And the whole number of Monads now going through evolution on our Earth Chain came over from the old seven planets or globes which I have described. ESOTERIC BUDDHISM calls this mass of Egos a "life wave," meaning the stream of Monads. It reached this planetary mass, represented to our consciousness by the central point our Earth, and began on Globe A or No. I, coming like an army or river. The first portion began on Globe A and went through a long evolution there in bodies suited to such a state of matter, and then passed on to B, and so on through the whole seven greater states of consciousness which have been called globes. When the first portion left A others streamed in and pursued the same course, the whole army proceeding with regularity round the septenary route. This journey went on for four circlings round the whole, and then the whole stream or army of Egos from the old Moon Chain had arrived, and being complete, no more entered after the middle of the Fourth Round. The same circling process of these differently arrived classes goes on for seven complete Rounds of the whole seven planetary centers of consciousness, and when the seven are ended as much perfection as is possible in the immense period occupied will have been attained, and then this chain or mass of "globes" will die in its turn to give birth to still another series. Each one of the globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven races, and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that state of matter: the experience of the whole seven globes being needed to make a perfect development. Hence we have the Rounds and Races. The Round is a circling of the seven centers of planetary consciousness; the Race the racial development on one of those seven. There are seven races for each globe, but the total of forty-nine races only makes up seven great races, the special septenate of races on each globe or planetary center composing in reality one race of seven constituents or special peculiarities of function and power. And as no complete race could be evolved in a moment on any globe, the slow, orderly processes of nature, which allow no jumps, must proceed by appropriate means. Hence sub-races have to be evolved one after the other before the perfect root race is formed, and then the root race sends off its offshoots while it is declining and preparing for the advent of the next great race. As illustrating this, it is distinctly taught that on the Americas is to be evolved the new -- sixth -- race; and here all the races of the earth are now engaged in a great amalgamation from which will result a very highly developed sub-race, after which others will be evolved by similar processes until the new one is completed. Between the end of any great race and the beginning of another there is a period of rest, so far as the globe is concerned, for then the stream of human Egos leaves it for another one of the chain in order to go on with further evolution of powers and faculties there. But when the last, the seventh, race has appeared and fully perfected itself, a great dissolution comes on, similar to that which I briefly described as preceding the birth of the earth's chain, and then the world disappears as a tangible thing, and so far as the human ear is concerned there is silence. This, it is said, is the root of the belief so general that the world will come to an end, that there will be a judgment-day, or that there have been universal floods or fires. Taking up evolution on the Earth, it is stated that the stream of Monads begins first to work up the mass of matter in what are called elemental conditions when all is gaseous or fiery. For the ancient and true theory is that no evolution is possible without the Monad as vivifying agent. In this first stage there is no animal or vegetable. Next comes the mineral when the whole mass hardens, the Monads being all imprisoned within. Then the first Monads emerge into vegetable forms which they construct themselves, and no animals yet appear. Next the first class of Monads emerges from the vegetable and produces the animal, then the human astral and shadowy model, and we have minerals, vegetables, animals and future men, for the second and later classes are still evolving in the lower kingdoms. When the middle of the Fourth Round is reached no more Monads emerge into the human stage and will not until a new planetary mass, reincarnated from ours, is made. This is the whole process roughly given, but with many details left out, for in one of the rounds man appears before the animals. But this detail need lead to no confusion. And to state it in another way. The plan comes first in the universal mind, after which the astral model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process is gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round. Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of globes raised up to a higher plane of development. In the process of condensing above referred to there is an alteration in respect to the time of the appearance of man on the planet. But as to these details the teachers have only said, "that at the Second Round the plan varies, but the variation will not be given to this generation." Hence it is impossible for me to give it. But there is no vagueness on the point that seven great races have to evolve here on this planet, and that the entire collection of races has to go seven times round the whole series of seven globes. Human beings did not appear here in two sexes first. The first were of no sex, then they altered into hermaphrodite, and lastly separated into male and female. And this separation into male and female for human beings was over 18,000,000 years ago. For that reason is it said, in these ancient schools, that our humanity is 18,000,000 years old and a little over. ============================================== W Q J --- EARTH CHAIN OF GLOBES II IN February PATH the subject of the coadunition but non-consubstantiality of the seven globes of the Earth-chain was opened up slightly and discussed in view of certain expressions from the Adepts themselves on the same matter. [PARA]Since then questions and doubts have arisen, as it seems that-as was suspected-the fundamental principles underlying this doctrine have not been clearly defined in the minds of all. And, indeed, before such clear definition is arrived at most if not all of the naturalistic and materialistic doctrines and modes of thought of the day will have to be abandoned. [PARA]The true theory of the companion globes of our earth is one which cannot be fully comprehended if we are influenced, as many are, by the education which for centuries has been imposed upon us. [PARA]When the adepts say that these doctrines must be examined from a metaphysical standpoint, the nineteenth century person thinks that therefore it must be so vague and unreal as not to constitute an inclusion of facts, since "facts" are hard and visible things, so to say.[PARA]The first question, coming from one who grasps to a great extent the theory broached in the paragraph from the Master's pen quoted in Secret Doctrine, is whether we will be able to see but one globe at a time as we change our centre of consciousness? That is to say, seeing that we now can perceive the earth with the eye and none of the other companions, does it follow from this that, when the race ceases to function on the earth and has taken up evolution on the next globe in order, we shall see then but that globe and none of the others of the chain among which will then be included this earth? [PARA]It by no means follows that we then shall be able to see but one, but to what extent our then vision will be stretched or how many other globes we shall be able to see has not been given out publicly by the Masters, and it is held that alone in the keeping of the Lodge is the knowledge on this detail of the doctrine. We are left therefore to our own deductions, to be drawn from known facts. No very substantial benefit could be derived from exact knowledge about it, as it relates to matters and states of life removed from us inconceivably far both as to time and consciousness. Nor would a full explanation be comprehended. [PARA]One of the teachers has written:[PARA]You do not seem to realize the tremendous difficulties in the way of imparting even the rudiments of our science to those who have been trained in the familiar methods of (modern science). You do not see that the more you have of the one the less capable you are to instinctively comprehend the other, for a man can only think in his worn grooves, and unless he has the courage to fill up these and make new ones for himself [italics are mine] he must perforce travel on the old lines. .[PARA][NL]Such is, unfortunately. the inherited and self-acquired grossness of the Western mind, and so greatly have the very phrases expressive of modern thought been developed in the line of practical Materialism, that it is now next to impossible either for them to comprehend or for us to express in their own languages anything of that delicate, seemingly ideal, machinery of the occult cosmos. To some little extent that faculty can be acquired by the Europeans through study and meditation, but-that's all. And here is the bar which has hitherto prevented a conviction of the Theosophical truths from gaining currency among Western nations-caused Theosophical study to be cast aside as useless and fantastic.[PARA]As implied in the foregoing, the reason for not telling all about it is that it would not be comprehended, and not that the Lodge desires to keep it back from the world. The same difficulty has often been encountered by ordinary clairvoyants who have tried to give an account of the little they know of the "occult cosmos" to hearers whose modes of thought were purely materialistic or tainted by that kind of education. [PARA]And I have met estimable theosophists who said to me that if they really were convinced that I believed certain things which I hinted to them they would be forced in sadness to conclude I was a most superstitious person meaning of course that their ignorance and inability would constitute my superstition.[PARA]But as we now reside in a physical body perfectly visible to us, and as the astral body is sometimes seen by certain persons, it follows most surely that some persons can now see another body or form of matter while functioning in their little earth. [PARA]The fact that all do not see the astral body only proves that as yet the seeing of it is not normal for the whole human race. And looking at the other side of the matter, we know that sometimes persons escaped temporarily from the physical body and functioning wholly in the astral have been able to see the physical one as it slept in trance. [PARA]From this we may conclude that when the race has gone to some other centre of consciousness called a globe, it may possibly be able to see another of the companions in the sky. This is made more probable from the fact that the Earth is the lowest or at the turning of the circle, and for that reason it is on its own plane and not in company as to plane with any other one. The others might be two at a time on the one plane and then visible to each other.[PARA]The next point raised is that if the article of February is accepted, then it results that we consider the companion globes to be only "phases of the Earth." The letter from the Master above quoted is pertinent here, for this objection arises solely and wholly from a materialistic education leading the objector to give the first place of importance to the earth, just as if it were not possible to say that earth is a phase of the other globes.[PARA]The globes are not in any sense phases of each other, but are "phases of consciousness." The consciousness alters and we function in another state of matter, in the same place, but not able to see the state of matter we have left. And as now the whole race is bound up by its total form and quality of consciousness, the units of it are compelled to remain in the general state of consciousness until the race progress permits an advance or change to another. [PARA]In the evolution of the race it develops new senses and instruments for perception, but these proceed along with the changing centre of consciousness, and are not the causes for the latter but are effects due to the operation and force of that inner power of perceiving which at last compels nature to furnish the necessary instrument. When the new instruments are all perfected, then the whole race moves on to another plane altogether.[PARA]All this supports and enforces the doctrine of universal brotherhood upon which the Adepts have insisted. For the changing of consciousness as to centre is not for the benefit of the individual, but is permissible and possible when the whole mass of matter of the globe whereon the beings are evolving has been perfected by the efforts and work of the most advanced of the whole number, and that advanced class is man. [PARA]If it were otherwise, then we should see millions upon millions of selfish souls deserting the planet as soon as they had acquired the necessary new senses, leaving their fellows and the various kingdoms of nature to shift for themselves. But the law and the Lodge will not permit this, but insist that we shall remain until the lower masses of atoms have been far enough educated to be able to go on in a manner not productive of confusion. Here again we trench upon the materialism of the age, which will roar with laughter at the idea of its being possible to educate the atoms.[PARA]The doctrine of the interpenetration of the planes of matter lies at the root of clairvoyance, clairaudience, and all such phenomena. Clairvoyance would be an impossibility were it not the fact that what for the ordinary sense is solid and an obstacle to sight is in reality for the other set of senses non-existent, free from solidity, and no obstacle. Otherwise clear seeing is impossible, and the learned doctors are right who say we are all deluded and never did any one see through a solid wall. [PARA]For while the faculty of imagination is necessary for the training of the power to see through a solid wall, we could not so perceive merely by imagination, since objects must have a medium through which they are to be seen. This again strikes against materialistic conceptions, for the "objective" usually means that which can be seen and felt. But in the machinery of the "occult cosmos" the objective is constantly changing to the subjective and vice versa, as the centre of consciousness changes. [PARA][PARA]In the trance or clairvoyant state the subjective of the waking man has become the objective. So also in dreams. There, clothed with another body of finer texture, the perceiver finds all the experiences objective as to their circumstances and subjective as to the feelings they produce on the perceiver who registers the sensations. And in precisely similar manner will the race see, feel, and know when it has changed all and begins to function on another globe.[PARA]WILLIAM BREHON[PARA][NL]Path, February and March. 1893[PARA][PARA] ===================== W Q J -- EARTH CHAIN OF GLOBES III The Editor has handed me a communication from a reader upon this subject which I insert here, as it on the one hand shows a very common defect of students-inaccuracy of reading, thought, and reference, and on the other will serve as a question which arises in other minds. It reads:[PARA]Please state in reference to the Earth Chain of Globes whether it is meant to be conveyed on page 159 of S. D. Vol. I that the "seven globes from the 1st to the 7th proceed in seven Rounds," that each globe revolves seven times around the World Chain with its own particular development [say the Mineral Kingdom], before the next in order [say the Vegetable Kingdom] appears on Globe A? Or does the Mineral Kingdom only go once around the World Chain from I to 7? In Esoteric Buddhism, page 91, it is stated that the several kingdoms pass "several times around the whole circle as minerals, and then again several times as vegetables," but there is no distinct statement of this in S.D.-[PARA]Yours, IGNOTUS.[PARA]Inaccuracies like those in the foregoing are not uncommon. They are constant and all-pervading. It is probably the fault of modern education, accentuated by the reading of a vast amount of superficial literature such as is poured out day by day. Any close observer can detect the want of attention displayed in metaphysical studies in contrast with the particular care given to matters of business and practical affairs of life. All those who are studying Theosophy ought to make themselves aware of this national defect, and therefore give the strictest attention to what they read upon metaphysics and devote less attention to the amount of such reading than to thinking upon what is read.[PARA]In the first place, the Secret Doctrine does not say on the page quoted, nor anywhere else, what "Ignotus" writes. Instead of reading as quoted, the passage is:[PARA]I. Everything in the metaphysical as in the physical Universe is septenary. [p. 158] . . . The evolution of life proceeds on these seven globes or bodies from the first to the seventh in Seven Rounds or Seven Cycles [p. 159].[PARA]I insert in italics the omitted words, the word proceeds having been put out of its place by "Ignotus." The error makes a completely new scheme, one unphilosophical and certainly not given out by the Masters. But though some may wonder why I notice such a false assumption, it is right to take it up because it must have arisen through carelessness, yet of such a sort as might perpetuate an important error. It follows from the restoration of the passage that the Globes do not "revolve around the world chain." [PARA]The supposition of the correspondent is not peculiar among the many hurried ones made by superficial readers. He first assumed that the various globes of the Earth-Chain revolved, in some way which he did not stop to formulate, in seven rounds-I presume in some imaginary orbit of their own-in what he called the "world chain," and then he went on adapting the rest of the evolutionary theory to this primary assumption. [PARA]By reading the Secret Doctrine and the former articles on this subject in the PATH, the point in question will be made clear. Evolution of the monad, which produces and underlies all other evolutions, proceeds on the seven planetary bodies of any chain of evolution. [PARA]These seven places or spheres for such evolution represent different states of consciousness, and hence, as written in the Secret Doctrine and attempted to be shown in these articles, they may and do interpenetrate each other with beings on each. Therefore all such words as "round," "around," "chain," and the like must be examined metaphysically and not be allowed to give the mind a false notion such as is sure to arise if they are construed in the material way and from their materialistic derivation. "To go around" the seven globes does not mean that one passes necessarily from one place to another, but indicates a change from one condition to another, just as we might say that a man "went the whole round of sensations."[PARA]As to the other questions raised, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM is right in saying that the monads pass several times around the globes as minerals and vegetables, but wisely does not make the number and order very definite. [PARA]In the Secret Doctrine one of the Masters writes that at the second round the order of the appearance of the human kingdom alters, but the letter goes no farther on that point except to say, as is very definitely put in the Secret Doctrine on p. 159, para. 4;[PARA]The Life Cycle . . . arrived on our Earth at the commencement of the Fourth in the present series of life-cycles and races. Man is the first form that appears thereon, being preceded only by the mineral and vegetable kingdoms-even the latter having to develop and continue its further evolution through man.[PARA]This states quite distinctly (a) that after the second round the order alters, and (b) that in the fourth round, instead of animals appearing as the first moving forms for the monads to inhabit, the human form comes first, preceded by mineral and vegetable, and followed by the brute-animal.[PARA]This change always comes on at any fourth round, or else we never could have evolutionary perfection. [PARA]Other monads come originally from other spheres of evolution. In a new one such as this the preliminary process and order of mineral, plant, animal, human must be followed. But having in two or three rounds perfected itself in the task, the monad brings out 'the human form at the turning point, so that man as the model, means, guide, and savior may be able to intelligently raise up not only humanity but as well every other kingdom below the human. [PARA]This is all made very clear and positive by repeated statement and explanation in the Secret Doctrine, and it is a matter for surprise that so many Theosophists do not understand it.[PARA]For fear that the present may be misunderstood I will add. Although the order of appearance of the human form alters as stated, this does not mean that the whole number of natural kingdoms does not make the sevenfold pilgrimage. They all make it, and in every round up to and including the seventh there are present in the chain of globes elemental, mineral, vegetable, animal, and human forms constituting those kingdoms, but of course the minerals and vegetables of the seventh round and race will be a very different sort from those of the present.[NL][NL]But as what a Master has said hereon is far better than my weak words, I will refer to that. Thus:[PARA]Nature consciously prefers that matter should be indestructible under organic rather than inorganic forms, and works slowly but incessantly towards the realization of this object-the evolution of conscious life out of inert material.[PARA]WILLIAM BREHON[PARA][NL]Path, April, 1893[PARA][PARA][PARA][PARA] KALI YUGA AND THE COMING RACE[PARA][NL](i) How many years are there in Kali Yuga? (2) Will the sixth sub-race begin very soon, that is, will it be at the end of the cycle of the first five thousand years of Kali Yuga? (3) Cannot a person of the fifth race come near where the sixth race shall live?[PARA](ii) Kali Yuga is said by the Brahmins and by the Secret Doctrine to be 432,000 years long. We will have to accept the calculation for the present.[PARA](2) Many thousands of years will pass before the next race will be here, and you will have died several times over before that, and also it is probable you will be one of that race unless you go to some other planet. You have made the error of sup-posing that the end of the cycle in 1898 is the end of the race. It is not. It is but a minor cycle, though quite important in its way. Hence-[PARA](3) As we, including you, will be members of the new race in all probability if we take advantage of our opportunities, there is no profit in the question or its answer, for the sixth race not being due for so many centuries, and you being eligible for membership in it, there is no sequence. When the sixth race has fully come, many degenerate examples of the bodies of the fifth will be here with it and among it, but no special place will be kept for its development.[PARA][NL]Path, January, 1895[PARA][PARA][PARA] ====================================== I hope these explanations will be helpful, Dallas Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: Nisk98114 Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:59 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE:cycles Although this might not clear up any "figgering" that one might do with globes, rounds and races and yugas, mahayugas and so forth ,that which is given below {snippets) , seems to me, although taken from Buddhism,show Theosophy's constant re-iteration of karma and cycles and it's actual meaning for us as human beings. And with this comes a question. Do we all think that a total resolution of globes, rounds and so forth will or would come forth, in our minds, in the form of a mandala of some sort? (Do a google search for the word mandala:suggestion) ************************************************************ CUT From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 18 18:24:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 02:24:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 68144 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 02:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 02:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 02:24:06 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dy3a-0001bs-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:24:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD9A072.902CC1D6@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:22:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rope tricks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > I remain persuaded that the offer of money is a bogus offer. Ditto > with the Randi and other offers which mysteriously are never > redeemed. There are plenty of pros like David Copperfield or Doug > Henning who could do this trick given an incentive. Well, David Copperfield, maybe. Unfortunately, Doug Henning (with whom I was friendly with at one point) quit magic years ago, joined a religious group (some say "cult"), and died not too long ago. He was a REALLY nice guy when I knew him. As far as James Randi goes, I worked with the man at one point, and still correspond with him occasionally. His offer is quite real, and very fair (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html). A number of people have claimed that they have won the reward without Randi or any member of JREF agreeing on the test. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 19 03:00:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 11:00:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 91069 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 11:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 11:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 11:00:17 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.6b.25ef074 (4418) for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:00:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6b.25ef074.2b0b73b8@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:00:08 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/16/02 5:01:28 AM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: > >Leon you say: > >"All causal relationships between fields should be >determined by analogy and correspondence - since all >fields are interdependently originated from a common >non-local zero-point center and are "in coadunition >but not in consubstantiality."" > >Could you please elaborate on your definition of a >field? > >Cheers, mic With respect to my ABC theory, such "coadunate but not consubstantial fields" are electrically coenergetic spherical hyperspace regions, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles, etc. -- that are analogous in their various stages or levels of substantiality or frequency/energy phase (or "order") to the scientific "field" of the lowest order 3-dimensional physical, "metric" or observed space, which is defined as follows: "A region of space characterized by a physical property, such as gravitational or electromagnetic force or fluid pressure, having a determinable value at every point in the region" (American Heritage Dictionary) Such coenergetic hyperspace "fields" are identical to the seven fold (or more) involved "fields of action," "planes," or "states of consciousness" described by HPB in the SD. For a visualization of the involution of such fields, see the symbolic cross sectional energy flow diagrams at: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 19 03:38:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 11:38:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 47560 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 11:38:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 11:38:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 11:38:36 -0000 Received: from pool0018.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.18] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18E6i9-0002FE-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:38:33 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: "Creation" and Philosophy Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:34:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 19 2002 Dear Friends: Here are a few words from H P B [article: OLD PHILOSOPHERS AND MODERN CRITICS] that seem to provide answers to the question "are we created? Is there a God that does this? IN one of the oldest philosophies and religious systems of prehistoric times, we read that at the end of a Maha-Pralaya (general dissolution) the great Soul, Param-Atma the Self-Existent, that which can be "apprehended only by the suprasensual," becomes "manifest of itself." The Hindűs give this "Existence" various names, one of which is Svayambhu, or Self-Existent. This Svayambhu emanates from itself the creative faculty, or Svayambhuva--the "Son of the Self-Existent"--and the One becomes Two; this in its turn evolves a third principle with the potentiality of becoming Matter which the orthodox call Viraj, or the Universe. This incomprehensible Trinity became later anthropomorphized into the Trimurti, known as Brahmâ, Vishnu, Shiva, the symbols of the creative, the preservative, and the destructive powers in Nature--and at the same time of the transforming or regenerating forces, or rather of the three aspects of the one Universal Force. It is the Tridanda, the triply manifested Unity, which gave rise to the orthodox AUM, which with them is but the abbreviated Trimurti. It is only under this triple aspect that the profane masses can comprehend the great mystery. When the triple God becomes Sharira, or puts on a visible form, he typifies all the principles of Matter, all the germs of life, he is the God of the three visages, or triple power, the essence of the Vedic Triad. "Let the Brâhmans know the Sacred Syllable [Aum], the three words of the Savitri, and read the Vedas daily." After having produced the universe, He whose power is incomprehensible vanished again, absorbed in the Supreme Soul. . . . Having retired into the primitive darkness, the Great Soul remains within the unknown, and is void of all form. . . . When having again reunited the subtile elementary principles, it introduces itself into either a vegetable or animal seed, it assumes at each a new form. It is thus that, by an alternative waking and rest, the Immutable Being causes to revive and die eternally all the existing creatures, active and inert. [study] the speculations of Pythagoras on the Monad, which, after emanating the Duad, retires into silence and darkness, and thus creates the Triad... The mystic Decad (1+2+3+4=10) is a way of expressing this idea. ...The One is God; the Two, Matter; the Three, combining Monad and Duad and partaking of the nature of both, is the phenomenal World; the Tetrad, or form of perfection, expresses the emptiness of all; and the Decad, or sum of all, involves the entire Kosmos. Let us see how the Brahmanical ideas tally with the pre-Christian Pagan Philosophies and with Christianity itself. It is with the Platonic Philosophy, the most elaborate compend of the abstruse systems of ancient India, that we had better begin. Although twenty-two and a half centuries have elapsed since the death of Plato, the great minds of the world are still occupied with his writings. He was, in the fullest sense of the word, the world's interpreter. And the greatest Philosopher of the pre-Christian era faithfully mirrored in his works the spiritualism of the Vedic Philosophers, who lived thousands of years before himself, with its metaphysical expression. Vyasa, Jaimini, Kapila, Patanjali, and may others, will be found to have transmitted their indelible imprint through the intervening centuries, by means of Pythagoras, upon Plato and his school. Thus is warranted the inference that to Plato and the ancient Hindu Sages the same wisdom was alike revealed. And so surviving the shock of time, what can this wisdom be but divine and eternal? Plato taught of justice as subsisting in the soul and as being the greatest good of its possessor. "Men, in proportion to their intellect, have admitted his transcendent claims"; yet his commentators, almost with one consent, shrink from every passage which implies that his Metaphysics are based on a solid foundation, and not on ideal conceptions. But Plato could not accept a Philosophy destitute of spiritual aspirations; with him the two were at one. For the old Grecian Sage there was a single object of attainment: REAL KNOWLEDGE. He considered those only to be genuine Philosophers, or students of truth, who possess the knowledge of the really-existing, in opposition to mere objects of perception; of the always-existing, in opposition to the transitory; and of that which exists permanently, in opposition to that which waxes, wanes, and is alternately developed and destroyed. Beyond all finite existences and secondary causes, all laws, ideas, and principles, there is an INTELLIGENCE or MIND [NNous, the Spirit] the first principle of all principles, the Supreme Idea on which all other ideas are grounded; the ultimate substance from which all things derive their being and essence, the first and efficient Cause of all the order, and harmony, and beauty, and excellency, and goodness, which pervade the universe--who is called, by way of preeminence and excellence, the Supreme Good, the God "the God over all" 5 It is not difficult for a Theosophist to recognize in this "God" (a) the UNIVERSAL MIND in its cosmic aspect; and (b) the Higher Ego in man in its microcosmic. For, as Plato says, He is not the truth nor the intelligence, "but the Father of it"; i.e., the "Father" of the Lower Manas, our personal "brain-mind," which depends for its manifestations on the organs of sense. Though this eternal essence of things may not be perceptible by our physical senses, it may be apprehended by the mind of those who are not wilfully obtuse 6 We find Plato stating distinctly that everything visible was created or evolved out of the invisible and eternal WILL, and after its fashion. Our Heaven--he says--was produced according to the eternal pattern of the "Ideal World," contained, like everything else, in the dodecahedron, the geometrical model used by the Deity. With Plato, the Primal Being is an emanation of the Demiurgic Mind (Nous), which contains within itself from eternity the "Idea" of the ' to-be-created world," and this Idea it produces out of itself The laws of Nature are the established relations of this Idea to the forms of its manifestations. Two thousand years later, we find the great German philosopher Schopenhauer borrowing this conception when stating that: These forms are time, space and causality. Through time and space the idea varies in its numberless manifestations. -------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 19 03:38:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 11:38:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 48914 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 11:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 11:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 11:38:44 -0000 Received: from pool0018.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.18] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18E6iI-0002FE-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:38:42 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Maya and illusion Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:34:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 20 2002 Dear Friends and M... Y... re Maya and Illusions and Delusions. No. Maya to me, and as I understand Theosophy, means "illusion" and implies : 1. That there is one who can see the difference between a fancy and a reality. 2. That this one who "sees" can know himself, as separate from "illusions." When I wrote: "Try living an instant without thought and the mind" == I was very literal. I suggested an actual exercise. If you want to, try this: close your eyes and focus your internal mental vision on a memory or something you select to investigate. Do not allow any distractions. Now, who are YOU who tell YOUR MIND TO DO THIS? How are distractions prevented? Is not the Mind a tool at that time ? Try to do it. You cannot and neither can I. hence the THINKER is the one who knows te difference between REALITY and the many illusions -- or if you prefer, opinionated and delusionary thought pictures. Best wishes, Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: M,,,,, Y....... Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 6:12 AM To: Subject: Re: Maya and Illusions Dear Dallas, Does "living an instant without thought and the mind" is in definition of maya? This is what you mentioned about maya in Theos-talk that keeps me thinking. DTB MAYA it may be, as a general description, but what I am after is: 1. What is the nature of this Maya ? (illusion and delusion) 2. Why am I presently involved in it? 3. What is the best way out? [ Does this mean SELF only, or include others? ] 4. How is it that others share this with me? Karma of a group ? Why? How? 5. Have I any duties or responsibilities to them, for this common and shared state? 6. If so, what are they? What aspect of further life is let to me to change? 7. If we are all fundamentally SPIRITUAL ENTITIES (I say: "Monads in evolution"), then why is the PERFECT so intimately associated with the IMPERFECT (Mayavic) at all points? What have I/we to learn from this? Could you please mention more about duality of mind? Best regards Munise >From: >Reply-To: Blavatsky_Study@yahoogroups.com >To: "Theosophy Study List" >Subject: [Blavatsky_Study] RE: re Gerald/Dallas . . . >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:48:22 -0800 > >Nov. 18 2002 > >I would like to say: Try living an instant without thought and the >mind." > >If one truly examines it, one soon finds its ramifications extend >everywhere. > >How then can it be omitted, avoided, or minimized ? > >Playing with words of description does not answer the direct question >of its necessity. > >Dal > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Blavatsky_Study-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 05:26:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 13:26:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 78987 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 13:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 13:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 13:26:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 13:26:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:26:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rope tricks Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DD9A072.902CC1D6@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 711 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.242 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > As far as James Randi goes, I worked with the man at one point, and > still correspond with him occasionally. His offer is quite real, and > very fair (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html). Oh, no, I noticed Randi has a piece on the Cottingley fairies. You probably know the Theosophical Dociety insists the fairies were real despite all evidence to the contrary, and even has a book out on how they were real fairies. That is one of the most embarrasing things they have ever done. The only real fairies the Theosophists have published books about are Leadbeater and Jinarajadasa. http://www.randi.org/library/cottingley/index.html From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Tue Nov 19 05:53:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 12670 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 13:53:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:53:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 34323 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.18 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:43 AM Subject: WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? EXAMINING THE CLAIMS OF THE=20 THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS, PART I "THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH"...EXAMINING THE ACCURACY=20 AND TRUTHFULNESS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS=20 PART I THE CLAIMED AUTHORITY AND PERSPECTIVE OF THE THEOSPHICAL=20=20=20=20 MASTERS, WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ?=20=20=20=20 = =20 AN INTRODUCTION TO THE MAHATMA LETTERS by HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA, SHIKSHA MASTER, BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA (LINEAGE) OF=20 VAISHNAVISM=20 MESSAGE NUMBERS IN THE BELOW REFER TO THE theos-talk Yahoo Egroup.=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Message 8909 of 8925=20=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 Date: Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:47 am Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theosophists non-evidence and fears to=20 come in the open on Indiancivilisation. brianmuehlbach wrote: > Brian: It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us=20 > (and the world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine=20 > oriental teachings or not. And how is this relevant to anything? Bart BA G: THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS, ORIGINALLY KOOT HOOMI (K H ) AND=20 MASTER MORYA (M), WHO ARE CONSIDERED BY THEOSOPHISTS AND NUMEROUS NEW=20 AGE GROUPS TO BE THE AUTHORS OF THE OVER 100 "MAHATHA LETTERS", HAVE=20 MADE GREAT CLAIMS ABOUT THEIR TEACHING AUTHORITY IN THOSE LETTERS.=20=20 OTHERS HAVE ACCEPTED THESE MASTERS' CLAIMS TO TEACHING AUTHORITY AS=20 VALID, AND HAVE THUS BASED THEIR ENTIRE WORLD-VIEW AND LIFE CHOICES=20 ON THE TEACHINGS OF THESE THEOSOPHICAL (T) MASTERS. FOR SOME THIS HAS=20 BEEN A LIFE-ENRICHING EXPERIENCE, WHICH HAS INSPIRED PHILOSOPHICAL=20 INQUIRY, INTELLECTUAL GROWTH, VIRTUE, ALTRUISM, A SENSE OF UNIVERSAL=20 BROTHERHOOD AND OTHER GOOD THINGS IN THEM. THESE THEOSOPHISTS HAVE=20 EXTRACTED THINGS FROM THE TEACHINGS OF THE T MASTERS THAT REINFORCED=20 THEIR INHERENT GOODNESS AND ENCOURAGED THEIR INTELLECTUAL GROWTH AND=20 MORAL DEVELOPMENT AND INTELLECTUAL-AFFECTIVE INTEGRATION ON MANY=20 LEVELS. SUCH A POSITIVE OUTCOME IS NO-DOUBT WHAT H.B. BLAVATSKY AND=20 OTHER OF THE THEOSOPHICAL LEADERS HAD IN MIND AT THE OUTSET OF THEIR=20 MISSION TO CREATE A GLOBAL ORDER DEVOTED TO THEIR ESOTERIC STUDIES.=20 HOWEVER, SOME OF THE CENTRAL IDEAS CONTAINED IN THE T=20 MASTERS' "MAHATMA LETTERS" INSPIRED MALEVOLENT, NOT BENEVOLENT=20 PEOPLE, AND THROUGH THE WORLD-VIEW AND LIFE-CHOICES OF THESE ILL- MOTIVATED PEOPLE, LED TO SOME PERSISTENTLY DANGEROUS GLOBAL=20 IDEOLOGIES AND TRAGIC OUTCOMES IN HISTORY. IT IS A GIVEN THAT THE=20 SAME CAN BE SAID REGARDING SOME IDEAS CONTAINED IN THE VEDAS, OR THE=20 BIBLE ETC. FOR EXAMPLE, IN INDIA, THE VEDIC AND PURANIC CONCEPT OF=20 THE SACRAMENTAL SOCIAL BODY (DAIVA VARNASHRAM DHARMA SYSTEM) OF THE=20 SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA (RIG VEDA PURUSHA SUKTA HYMN) WAS=20 CORRUPTED BY THE CONSCIENCE-LESS POWERFUL INTO THE OPPRESSIVE=20 REINCARNATION-AND-KARMA DOCTRINE RELATED BIRTH-CASTE SYSTEM. AS IN=20 PROTESTANT PURITANISM, A HAPPY PRIVILEGED LIFE WAS CONSIDERED BY THE=20 ELITE BIRTH-CASTE BRAHMINS TO BE THE RESULT OF COSMIC FAVOR OR SU=20 KARMA / GOOD KARMA. THOSE POWERLESS PERSONS SUFFERING FROM POVERTY=20 ETC. WERE CONSIDERED UNWORTHY OF ANYTHING BETTER BY VIRTUE OF THEIR=20 PREVIOUS SINFULNESS AND RESULTANT CURSED BIRTH / VI-KARMA OR BAD=20 KARMA. THUS THIS VEDIC DOCTRINE INTERPRETED BY NON RACIST PEOPLE OF=20 BENEVOLENT GOOD-WILL COULD RESULT IN A JUST AND PEACEFUL, PROGRESSIVE=20 UNIFYING SOCIAL ORDER. HOWEVER THE SAME DOCTRINE COULD RESULT IN=20 OPPRESSION AND BIRTH-CLASS SLAVERY WHEN INTERPRETED BY RACIST PERSONS=20 OF ILL-WILL. IN THE SAME WAY THE CHRISTIAN MISSION TO GO OUT AND=20 SAVE PEOPLE MAY BE THE INSPIRATION FOR EITHER ALTRUISTIC, BENEVOLENT=20 AND SOCIALLY UNIFYING ACTS THAT BUILD NON-SECTARIAN HUMAN COMMUNITY,=20 OR THE GOSPEL MISSION MAY BE MISINTERPRETED AS A MANDATE TO=20 FORCIBLY 'CONVERT' HUMANITY IN COLONIAL AND MUSLIM JIHADI-LIKE=20 CAMPAIGNS.=20 IT DOES NOT SERVE THE BEST INTEREST OF HUMANITY TO IGNORE THE=20 HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE IDEAL OF THE VEDIC VARNASHRAM=20 DHARMA SYSTEM DOCTRINE AND THE HORRIFIC PATHOLOGICAL REALITY OF THE=20 BIRTH-CASTE SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT HELP HUMANITY TO IGNORE THE=20 HISTORICAL REALITY OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DOCTRINE OF=20 CHRISTIAN MISSION AND ITS PERVERTED MANIFESTATION, THE DOCTRINE OF=20 EURO-AMERICAN GLOBAL CONQUEST. IN THE SAME WAY IT IS NOT IN THE BEST=20 INTEREST OF HUMANITY TO IGNORE OR TO TRY TO COVER-UP / OBSCURE THE=20 HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP OF CERTAIN THEOSOPHICAL IDEAS TO=20 COLONIAL 'WHITE' ARYAN RACISM, LATER NAZI ARYOSOPHISM, AND THE=20 DIFFUSION OF THESE IDEAS INTO VARIOUS OTHER SOCIALLY PATHOLOGICAL,=20 RACIST AND OTHER SCIENTISTIC MOVEMENTS. IDEAS HAVE HISTORY, AND=20 EVEN THE BEST OF IDEAS ARE MISUNDERSTOOD AND ABUSED OR CORRUPTED OVER=20 TIME AND DISTANCE AS THEY DIFFUSE THROUGH VARIOUS EXISTING THOUGHT- SYSTEMS AND LANGUAGES. TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCE MODIFY IDEAS. EVEN WHEN=20 AN ATTEMPT IS MADE TO PROTECT AN IDEA FROM MODIFICATION BY=20 DOCTRINALIZING IT, VARYING PERSPECTIVES ALLOW FOR DOCTRINES TO BE=20 INTERPRETED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. THUS A NON RACIST AND A RACIST=20 READING THE PURUSHA SUKTA WILL SEE DIFFERENT DOCTRINES IN IT. A=20 DOCTRINE OR CREED (CREDO=3DSHRADDHA), LIKE BEAUTY CAN EXIST 'IN THE EYE=20 OF THE BEHOLDER', AS WELL AS CODIFIED IN DOCUMENTS. AS A RESULT,=20 PERSONS OF GOOD-WILL AND THOSE OF ILL-WILL CAN SEEM TO PROFESS THE=20 SAME CREED, BUT THE CONTENT OF THE CREED, THE MEANING OF THE WORDS IS=20 NOT THE SAME FOR THEM. THE DOCUMENT IS THE SAME, THE DIFFERENCE=20 BEING IN THEIR PERSPECTIVE.=20=20 SO, WHILE I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE AT THE OUTSET OF THIS SERIES OF=20 ARTICLES THAT MANY PEOPLE OF GOOD-WILL AND ALTRUISTIC BEHAVIOR HAVE=20 FOUND AND STILL FIND INSPIRATION IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND=20 THEOSOPHY, AS AN HISTORIAN OF IDEAS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED WITH=20 RELIGION IN RELATIONSHIP TO HUMAN SUFFERING, HUMAN RIGHTS AND SOCIAL=20 JUSTICE ISSUES, I WILL BE FOCUSING ON SOME OF THE MORE PROBLEMATIC=20 TEACHINGS IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS, WHICH HAVE HAD A PATHOLOGICAL=20 SOCIAL INFLUENCE THROUGH THEIR ADOPTION AND INTERPRETATION BY PEOPLE=20 OF ILL-WILL IN THE HISTORY OF THE LAST CENTURY PLUS.=20=20 THE AUTHORITY CLAIMED FOR THE THEOSOPHICAL MAHATMAS Message 8622 of 8625=20 From: "Jeremy Condick"=20 Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:54 pm Subject: absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G]=20 =20=20 =20 "Extract: "It was the mission of Madame Blavatsky, under the instructions of=20 those Adepts, to give to the world selected portions of that archaic=20 teaching. It should be remembered that an Adept -- A MASTER, IS ONE WHO HAS=20 ACHIEVED IMMORTALITY, and therefore has the power to perceive truth as it is=20 and at will to reflect it without distortion. It is because no one of lesser=20 degree can claim that power always and with certainty that THEIR TESTIMONY=20 MUST BE REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine=20 and practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally that from the=20 point of view of the "original programme" of the Society, no theosophical=20 association has any raison d'etre if it does not remain true to the Masters and=20 their teaching. There are some who seem to believe that it is possible to be faithful to the Masters while denying even the theoretical truth of=20 their teaching. This is where the responsibility of the old Theosophical=20 Society is so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma Letters the writer had occasion to point out in what important particulars that Society=20 showed by its actions a serious divergence from the spirit and letter of the=20 original teaching. That volume proves beyond question that H. P. B.'s writings=20 are absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings, and in nothing is=20 this more clearly discernible than in her exposition of the doctrines=20 relating to the Life after Death." A. TREVOR BARKER. LONDON, December, 1924." BA G: SO TO BEGIN WITH, THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS HAVE BEEN CLAIMED=20 TO POSSESS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY, AND H.P. BLAVATSKY HAS BEEN=20 ASSERTED AS THEIR RELIABLE "ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT" SPOKESPERSON.=20 "Mahatma Letter No. 134 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm [Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a=20 message from Master Morya.] Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th. " ... " It is useless for a member to argue 'I am one of a pure life, I=20 am a=20 teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations=20 are for good etc.' and he, at the same time, building by his acts and=20 deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What=20 have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and=20 of Sang-gyas to do with the SHASTERS and Orthodox Brahmanism? There=20 are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the=20 most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE PATH OF ERROR,=20 never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us.=20 THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE ONLY TRUE=20=20 PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and now, it is not for the=20 latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us.=20 Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a Nastika as they call=20 us? None."=20 BA G: IN THIS QUOTE, THE "SHASTERS" (SHASTRAS, HOLY SANSKRIT=20 SCRIPTURES) OF INDIA ARE REJECTED, AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE T=20=20 MASTERS AND HPB ARE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED WITH THERAVADIN (SOUTHERN OR=20 ATHEISTIC) BUDDHISM, CENTERED IN SRI LANKA, WHICH WAS DRIVEN OUT OF=20 INDIA DURING AND SUBSEQUENT TO THE REIGN OF THE MAHAYANA BUDDHIST=20 EMPEROR ASOKA. ASOKA'S OWN BUDDHIST MASTER HAD AN ASHRAM IN MATHURA,=20 THE ANCIENT CAPITAL AND EDUCATIONAL UNIVERSITY 'VATICAN CITY' OF=20 ROYAL KRISHNA-CENTRIC VAISHNAVISM, WHICH THE PURE LAND TRADITION OF=20 MAHAYANA BUDDHISM IS CLOSELY RELATED TO. THE FORM OF=20 BUDDHISM "DRIVEN AWAY" FROM INDIA WAS THAT OF SRI LANKAN RELATED=20 THERAVADIN BUDDHISM.=20=20 THE TS TEACHINGS CONTINUALLY MERGE CONTRADICTORY MAHAYANA AND=20 THERAVADIN BUDDHIST DOCTRINES, ESPECIALLY IN THEIR COMBINED USE OF=20 NEPALESE-TIBETAN WITH SRI LANKAN SOURCES. HOWEVER, THEY SEEM TO=20 CONTAIN NO APPRECIATION OF THE INTIMATE HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP=20 BETWEEN VAISHNAVISM AND PURE LAND BUDDHISM, AS IS APPARENT FROM ALL=20 THE SANSKRIT BUDDHIST TEXTS, ICONOGRAPHY AND INTERDISCIPLINARY=20 EVIDENCE IN ANCIENT COMBINED VAISHNAVA AND PURE LAND BUDDHIST CENTERS=20 OF WORSHIP LIKE VRINDAVANA-MATHURA . INSTEAD OF CORRECTLY=20 ASSOCIATING THE MAHAYANA DOCTRINES, RITES, ICONOGRAPHY ETC. OF=20 NEPALESE-TIBETAN BUDDHISM WITH EARLIER THEISTIC KRISHNA-CENTRIC=20 VAISHNAVISM, THE T S MASTERS GENERALLY IGNORE THE PROFOUNDLY=20 IMPORTANT VAISHNAVA LINK, AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON THE 'ESOTERIC'=20 DECONSTRUCTION OF OTHER-POWER SALVIFIC BUDDHIST TRANSCENDENTALISM,=20 AND WATERING-DOWN OF THE THEISTIC ASSOCIATIONS WITH 'HINDUISM' TO RE- PRESENT N-TIBETAN BUDDHISM AS MERELY A COVERED FORM OF THERAVADA.=20 OF COURSE THIS CAMPAIGN OF THEOSOPHY REINFORCED THE EXOTERIC-THEISM- VERSUS-ESOTERIC-ATHEISM DICHOTOMY ALREADY IN N-TIBETAN BUDDHISM.=20=20=20 ESOTERIC VOIDISM HAUNTS MAHAYANA BUDDHISM IN THE SAME WAY THAT=20 ESOTERIC ATHEISM HAUNTS 'HINDUISM' IN THE FORM OF EXTREME IMPERSONAL=20 ADVAITA VEDANTA, AND ESOTERIC GNOSTICISM STILL HAUNTS CHRISTIANITY IN=20 THE WEST. THUS WHILE CLAIMING A LOVE OF INDIA AND HER SACRED=20 TRADITIONS, IN FACT, THE THEOSOPHISTS REJECTED HER AUTHENTIC=20 TRADITIONS OF SALVIFIC TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM, THE DOMINANT=20 EXOTERIC BHAKTI TRADITIONS OF KRISHNA-VISHNU, SHIVA AND DEVI, TO=20 PROMOTE A FORM OF EXOTERICALLY HINDU-IZED BUT ESOTERIC, COVERED=20 SYNCRESTIC BUDDHISM. THE T MASTERS WERE NOT MASTERS OF THE CORPUS OF=20 SANSKRIT OR SOUTHERN INDIAN DRAVIDIAN SACRED VISHNU, SHIVA, DEVI AND=20 MARUGAN ETC, LITERATURES. THEY DID NOT TEACH ABOUT THE DIRECT=20 RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PURE LAND BUDDHISM AND VAISHNAVISM, AND THEY=20 SEEMED TO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT THE GREAT DEVOTIONAL, SALVIFIC TRADITIONS=20 OF EITHER NORTHERN OR SOUTHERN INDIA. THEY PRESENTED THEMSELVES AS=20 THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES ON ANCIENT WISDOM, BUT APPARENTLY FELT THAT=20 HONORING THE SOURCES OF THEIR WISDOM, THE "SHASTERS" THAT THEY=20 DISDAINED, WAS NOT NECESSARY. THUS THEY PRESENTED THEIR 'OWN'=20 SYSTEM OF THOUGHT, USING LANGUAGE AND TEACHINGS FROM VARIOUS SHASTRAS=20 WITHOUT PROPERLY REPRESENTING THOSE TEXTS, OR THEIR SOURCE, THE=20 SUPREME DEITY OF THE VEDAS AND PURANAS, UPANISHADS, SAMHITAS, TEMPLE=20 ARCHANA VIGRAHA WORSHIP , BHAKTI HYMNOLOGY ETC.=20=20 =20 THE EASTERN TEACHINGS OF THE T MASTERS ARE A CONCOCTION OF DOCTRINES=20 DRAWN PRINCIPALLY FROM VAISHNAVA AND BUDDHIST SOURCES, AND THEY=20 CLAIM TO BE THE "HIGHEST AUTHORITY" OF THIS "ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY" ON=20 EARTH. IN THE BELOW QUOTE, WE CAN SEE THE GENERAL ATTITUDE THAT=20 THEOSOPHISTS HAVE TOWARDS THE "DEITY VISUALIZATIONS" OF THE "HIGH=20 SCHOOL" LEVEL OF TIBETAN BUDDHISM, WHILE THE NO NAMA-RUPA (NAME- FORM) PRACTICE OF ZEN BUDDHISM IS CALLED THE PhD PROGRAM. IT SEEMS=20 IN THE BELOW, THAT BLOFELD'S ATTITUDE IS THE SAME AS THAT OF THE=20 THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY TEACHING ON THIS MATTER.=20=20=20 Message 8580 of 8582=20=20 From: "Steve Stubbs"=20 Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 12:40 pm Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 =20 =20=20 =20 [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G] --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > But what about the 6 or 7 schools of yoga. Did they not cover all=20 the=20 > bases? I am not sure I understand the question, but different schools were=20 developed to meet the needs of different temperaments. In his book=20 TANTRIC MYSTICISM IN TIBET Blofeld argued that the different schools=20 are like different grades in the public school system. Mantra yoga,=20 which is based on the simple repetition of a sound, is the=20 most "elemebtary" level, whereas Tantric Tibetan schools, with their=20 elaborate DEITY VISUALIZATIONS is akin to HIGH SCHOOL. and ZEN IS THE=20 PhD PROGRAM. Blofeld's idea is that not everyone is ready for a PhD.=20 BA G: THEOSOPHY TEACHES THAT THERE ARE PLANETARIES AND ASCENDED=20 MASTERS OR 'BODHISATTVAS', BUT THERE IS NO TRANSCENDENTAL SUPREME=20 PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, WHO IS THE SOURCE OF SUCH BEINGS. IN=20 THEOSOPHY THE DHARMA KAYA, OR ULTIMATE REALITY IS TOTALLY IMPERSONAL,=20 AND PERSONALITY ONLY EXISTS IN A QUALIFIED STATE IN THE NIRMANYA (OR=20 SAMBHOGYA) KAYA. SO THE T S MASTERS ARE THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES OF=20 THE ONE TRUE PHILOSOPHY ON EARTH, AND CLEARLY TEACH A BUDDHISM THAT=20 REJECTS THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTALISM OF THE VAISHNAVA-RELATED=20 MAHAYANA TRI KAYA (TRINITY), IN FAVOR OF A SRI LANKAN AND ZEN RELATED=20 FORM OF THERAVADIN BUDDHISM. EVEN SO, THE "ABSOLUTE NOTHING" ( SEE=20 MASEO ABE FOR EXAMPLE) OF ORTHODOX SRI LANKAN- RELATED THERAVADIN=20 BUDDHISM IS NOT AUTHENTICALLY AND CONSISTENTLY REPRESENTED THROUGHOUT=20 THE LETTERS OF THE MAHATMAS.=20=20 =20 BA G: NOW WE HAVE A GENERAL IDEA OF THE MASTERS' AUTHORITY CLAIMS,=20=20 THE EXTENT OF THEIR SHASTRIC KNOWLEDGE-BASE AND THE EASTERN ASPECT OF=20 THEIR PERSPECTIVE. THEIR WRITINGS ARE FULL OF THOUGHT-FORMS,=20 LANGUAGE AND REFERENCES WHICH CLEARLY INDICATE A EUROPEAN HIGHER=20 EDUCATION, SO THEOSOPHICAL LORE TAKES THIS INTO ACCOUNT. OTHERS (THE=20 HARE BROTHERS ETC,) HAVE MADE TEXTUAL STUDIES OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS=20 FOR INTERNAL EVIDENCE OF THEIR AUTHORSHIP. HOWEVER, I AM NOT=20 CONCERNED WITH THE MASTERS CLASSICAL WESTERN EDUCATION IN THIS SERIES=20 OF COMMENTS ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS. I AM CONCERNED WITH WHETHER OR=20 NOT THE LETTERS REPRESENT THE EASTERN TRADITIONS THAT THEY HAVE SO=20 OBVIOUSLY DRAWN FROM ACCURATELY. AT THIS POINT, WE COME TO THE=20 QUESTION OF THE CLAIMED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MASTERS KOOT HOOMI,=20 MORYA AND MADAME H.P. BLAVATSKY, WHO WAS CONSIDERED THEIR ABSOLUTELY=20 CONSISTENT REPRESENTATIVE. WHAT AUTHORITY IS CLAIMED FOR HER ? IS=20 SHE CONSIDERED AS EQUALLY INFALLIBLE AS SOME THEOSOPHISTS CONSIDER=20 THE MASTERS K H AND M ? IN THE BELOW, IT IS CLAIMED THAT MADAME=20 BLAVATSKY WAS ACTUALLY AN INCARNATION OF SERAPIS, THE MASTER OF K H=20 AND M THEMSELVES !=20 Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002. =20 "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B. ? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky=20=20 ..."From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the=20 Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or=20 Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis=20 (being a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using=20 the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of=20 self-sacrifice." These insights help us to understand more fully the=20 significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky:=20 "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail=20 themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon=20 European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . . "=20 =20=20 BA G: THUS WHILE HPB WAS PLAYING AT BEING THE STUDENT OF HER MASTERS=20 K H AND M, THEOSOPHISTS TEACH THAT SHE WAS ACTUALLY THEIR MASTER.=20=20=20 THE WHOLE SCHEME GETS QUITE CONVOLUTED, WITH THE CAST OF T MASTERS=20 EVENTUALLY BEING CREDITED WITH HUMAN PROGRESS IN GENERAL, THROUGH=20 THEIR ASTOUNDING LITANY OF PREVIOUS INCARNATIONS.=20 Message 8820 of 8900=20=20 From: "netemara888"=20 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 6:50 am Subject: Re: 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G]=20 ..."Now is this author saying she copied it verbatim? The Voice is=20 based=20 on the Stanzas of Dyzan right? And people have said it here and there=20 that there is no such thing as Senzar language as she called it? Is=20 that right? Well, she gets credit for no other reason than=20 translating the thing into English. And if my memory serves me=20 correctly that she said that she PULLED THIS OUT OF HER MASTER'S(MM) BRAIN WHILE HE WAS TOUCHING HER TEMPLES. And that she had to make his=20 English more fluent. Or was that the other story when she was with=20 him in Tibet? I get the stories confused. But she says clearly that=20 the words of The Voice, anyway, are NOT her own. But it is not proof=20 positive that she did not plaigerize it."... BA G: THE MAHATMA LETTERS ARE PART OF THE LARGER BODY OF=20 THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS, WHOSE GREATEST EARLY CONTRIBUTOR WAS MADAME=20 HPB / HER MASTERS. THERE ARE MANY CLAIMS MADE ABOUT THE=20 MYSTICAL 'PRECIPITATION', AUTOMATIC WRITING OR 'CHANNELING' (MODERN=20 TERM) OF THE MASTERS' TEACHINGS THROUGH HPB AND OTHERS. AGAIN I AM=20 NOT AS CONCERNED WITH THESE ISSUES AS I AM INTERESTED IN THE USE OR=20 MISUSE AND MISREPRESENTATION OF AUTHENTIC, REDACTED / CORRUPTED OR=20 CONCOCTED ANCIENT EASTERN SOURCE-WORKS. LIKE JOSEPH SMITH'S=20 MIRACULOUS TRANSLATION OF THE EGYPTIAN "BOOK OF MORMON" TABLETS, OR=20 WORKS CLAIMING TO BE BASED ON DOCUMENTS ABOUT JESUS FOUND IN A=20 TIBETAN LAMASERY, OR THE CLAIMED "ESSENE GOSPEL" OF THE BOGUS MODERN=20 SO-CALLED ESSENES, THERE IS A PATTERN TO THE EMERGENCE AND=20 PRESENTATION OF ESOTERIC AND NEO-GNOSTIC SPURIOUS 'ANCIENT' SOURCE=20 WORKS. THESE TYPICALLY ARE MIRACULOUSLY PRODUCED TRANSLATIONS OF SOME=20 HIDDEN, LOST OR OBSCURE TEXT, INSCRIPTIONS OR OTHER REVELATION, WITH=20 BUILT-IN DENIABILITY WHEN IT COMES TO AUTHENTICATION OF THE SOURCE.=20 THERE IS ALWAYS SOME REASON WHY THE ORIGINAL CANNOT BE PRODUCED, SO=20 THAT OTHERS CAN ANALYZE IT FOR AUTHENTICITY, AND COMPARE THE ORIGINAL=20 TEXT'S 'MIRACULOUS TRANSLATION' FOR ACCURACY. IN THE CASE OF THE=20 MAHATMA LETTERS, AND THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN", THE PROBLEM OF=20 AUTHENTICITY HAS BEEN AVOIDED BY CLAIMING THAT THESE WRITINGS WERE=20 PRODUCED THROUGH THE SPIRITUALISTIC MEDIUMSHIP OF HPB.=20 BEFORE HER CAREER AS A THEOSOPHICAL REVELATOR OF ANCIENT EASTERN=20 WISDOM IN INDIA, SHE WAS A MEDIUM AND CONJUROR IN SPIRITUALIST=20 (S=C9ANCE AND MEDIUMS) CIRCLES IN AMERICA. SHE WAS EXTRAORDINARILY=20 WELL READ, KNEW SEVERAL LANGUAGES, AND WAS A GREAT STORY TELLER AND=20 PRODIGIOUS WRITER WHO ONCE RAN A WRITING SHOP, AND WAS EXPERT IN JUST=20 THE SKILLS SHE WOULD NEED TO TAKE DICTATION FROM THE INVISIBLE=20 MASTERS. ALTHOUGH SHE SEEMED TO OVERTLY HATE JUDAISM AND=20 CHRISTIANITY, SHE COULD ALSO BE AN OUTSPOKEN CHAMPION FOR THOSE SHE=20 CONSIDERED WRONGED OR OPPRESSED. A COMPLEX AND BRILLIANT WOMEN, HPB=20 COMMANDED RESPECT EVEN FROM SOME EDUCATED AND POWERFUL MEN, IN AN AGE=20 WHEN WOMEN WERE NOT EXPECTED TO BE THE INTELLIGENT CHAMPIONS OF=20 ANYTHING. IT SHOULD BE KEPT IN MIND THAT THE SOCIAL EVILS THAT WERE=20 LATER TO MANIFEST FROM SOME OF HER SEEDS OF THOUGHT, WERE SURELY NOT=20 ANTICIPATED OR DESIRED BY HER. (I OBVIOUSLY DO NOT ACCEPT THE IDEA=20 THAT SHE WAS 'SERAPIS', AND THUS AN ALL-KNOWING MASTER OUTSIDE OF THE=20 NORMAL INFLUENCES OF TIME.) AT SOME POINT IN HER CONJURING AND MINOR- LEAGUE MEDIUMSHIP, SHE 'GOT RELIGION' SO TO SPEAK, AND EMBARKED ON A=20 LIFE-LONG MISSION TO BETTER THE CONDITION OF HUMANKIND. SHE WAS NO=20 DOUBT WELL MOTIVATED, BUT PRODUCED A MIXED WORK THAT WAS PART GENIUS=20 AND PART NONSENSE AND TRICKERY. THE QUESTION IS ...WHY SHOULD PEOPLE=20 ABANDON THE STUDY OF AUTHENTIC ANCIENT RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL=20 SOURCE-WORKS TO ACCEPT HER / THE MAHATMAS' WRITINGS AS THE ULTIMATE=20 AUTHORITY ON THE WORLD'S HIDDEN MYSTERIES ?=20 8852 of 8901=20=20 From: leonmaurer=20 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G] =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 "BTW -- even if HPB STOLE HER IDEAS and theories from all the ancient=20 and=20 modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes,=20 Pythagorus, Plato,=20 Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- WHY SEND EVERYONE TO THEM=20 to=20 learn new languages and dig it out for themselves, covering the same=20 tracks=20 that Blavatsky did -- when all of it was so CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY=20 synthesized in the SD (along with other explanatory writings of HPB=20 and=20 associated scriptural confirmations) in the common language that most=20 everyone of a thoughtful mind in the world, today, can understand?"=20 ..."In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate=20 truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in=20 the "revelations"=20 of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner -- where=20 intuition=20 and reason are the only Gods worth listening to."=20 BA G: THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. IT=20 IS A MATTER OF THE BASIC INTEGRITY OR RELIABILITY OF THE INFORMATION=20 THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS, AND THE ACKNOWLEDGED=20 WRITINGS OF H.P. BLAVATSKY AND THE OTHER PROMINENT PERSONALITIES OF=20 THE EARLY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND MOVEMENT. WHAT TRUTH DID THE=20 THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS ACTUALLY CONVEY ? WHY SHOULD EVERYONE GO TO THE=20 T MASTERS, INSTEAD OF TO THE STILL EXTANT AUTHENTIC SOURCES ? DID=20 THE MASTERS AND H.P. BLAVATSKY ALWAYS=20 "CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY" SYNTHESIZE AND REPRESENT IMPORTANT ANCIENT=20 TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS IN HER WORK? OR WERE THERE SERIOUS=20 OMISSIONS, CONTRADICTIONS, AND OTHER ERRORS? WERE SOME OF THEIR=20 REPRESENTATIONS OF ANCIENT TRADITIONS SERIOUSLY FLAWED, CORRUPTED BY=20 EXTREME BIAS AND / OR EVEN ACTUALLY DISHONEST?=20 THE ABOVE CURRENT THEOSOPHIST'S VIEW REGARDING "THE ONLY GODS WORTH=20 LISTENING TO.", SHOULD BE COMPARED TO THE STATEMENT BELOW, OF MASTER=20 KOOT HOOMI HIMSELF.=20=20 REGARDING ATHEISM IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS... Message 8767 of 8767=20=20 "Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed]=20 NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME,=20 INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED).=20 Received at Simla, 1881-? '82.=20 [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN THE QUOTED TEXT BELOW ARE MINE, BA G] NEITHER our philosophy nor ourselves BELIEVE IN A God, least of all=20 in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G."=20 ... "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS. We=20 know there are planetary and other=20 spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system NO SUCH THING AS=20 GOD, EITHER PERSONAL OR IMPERSONAL. Parabrahm is not a God, but=20 absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented=20 to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either=20 admired or dreaded without understanding them, and SINCE WE CLAIM AND=20 THAT WE ARE ABLE TO PROVE WHAT WE CLAIM -- i.e. the knowledge of that=20 cause and causes we are in a position to maintain THERE IS NO God OR=20 Gods BEHIND THEM." ...=20 BA G: CONFUSION IN THE MASTER RESULTS IN CONFUSION IN THE CHELA IN THE BELOW, THE AUTHOR HIMSELF DEMONSTRATES WHY ATTENTION SHOULD BE=20 PAID TO UNDERSTANDING EASTERN THOUGHT AND TRADITIONS, AND INDIVIDUAL=20 TEXTS AND PERSONS, FROM RELIABLE, HISTORICALLY AUTHENTIC SOURCES.=20=20=20 HE PROFOUNDLY ERRS IN IDENTIFYING MYSELF (BA G) WITH ..."Vedantist=20 and Buddhist sectarian and separatist teachings"....=20 IF HE HAD ACQUIRED ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE SUBJECT IN GENERAL FROM=20 CLEAR AND ACCURATE, RELIABLE SOURCES, HE NEVER COULD HAVE CONFUSED ME=20 WITH A "Vedantist". IF HE HAD ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THE VARIOUS REAL- WORLD SOURCES AND TRADITIONS INVOLVED, AND HAD READ AND UNDERSTOOD MY=20 BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH ON THE SITE WHERE HIS COMMENT WAS POSTED, HE=20 WOULD NOT HAVE CONFUSED ME WITH "sectarian and separatist=20 teachings" I AM A PERSON WHO HAS STUDIED DEEPLY IN NUMEROUS=20 TRADITIONS, HAVING A DISTINGUISHED HISTORY OF SERVICE IN NON- SECTARIAN INTERFAITH ACTIVISM. MY OWN TEACHINGS ARE ANYTHING=20 BUT "separatist". AS A SHIKSHA (INSTRUCTING) MASTER, IN A LINEAGE=20 OF VAISHNAVISM FROM WHICH SOME OF THE MASTERS' / BLAVATSKY'S=20 TEACHINGS HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATED, I HAVE SOME FAMILIARITY WITH THE=20 SANSKRIT TERMS THEY USED, AS FOUND IN THE REAL ANCIENT SOURCE=20 WORKS. I ALSO HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN=20 SOME OF THE VARIOUS SCHOOLS OF 'HINDU' THOUGHT. AS A MASTER IN A=20 BHAKTI YOGA LINEAGE, IT IS LAUGHABLE TO HEAR MYSELF REFERRED TO AS=20 A "VEDANTIST" IN SUCH A WAY.=20=20 Message 8852 of 8901=20=20 From: leonmaurer@a...=20 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Assuming that you agree with the VEDANTIST AND BUDDHIST SECTARIAN AND=20 SEPARATIST TEACHINGS OF BAG and GS as well as with most popular=20 aspects of=20 modern reductive science (if not any other "religion") -- don't you=20 think=20 that your hatred of HPB (the great initial synthesizer of all these=20 disparate, contradictory, one tracked, and separate religions,=20 sciences and=20 philosophies) has gone much too far, and is, in effect, doing a great=20 disservice to humanity at large? From this point of view, you should=20 be=20 ashamed of yourself. And, maybe, you, and your cohorts should also=20 stop=20 pounding on all us poor, deluded and misled=20 theosophical "fundamentalists."=20 (Apropos, I wonder if your "separatists" or us "synthesists" have the=20 right=20 to be labeled as such? :-) In any event, I'm satisfied that the=20 ultimate=20 truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in=20 the "revelations"=20 of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner -- where=20 intuition=20 and reason are the only Gods worth listening to. ONE OF MY MAIN CRITICISMS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY TEACHINGS IS=20 THAT THEY MISREPRESENT TEACHINGS FROM GENUINELY ANCIENT THEISTIC AND=20 ATHEISTIC SOURCES BY APPROPRIATING, DISTORTING, RE-CONTEXTING AND=20 MISREPRESENTING THEM. FOR INSTANCE THE MAHATMAS' TEACHINGS=20 SOMETIMES MAKE USE OF IDEAS FROM VAISHNAVA TRADITIONS, BUT MAKE NO=20 PROPER REFERENCE TO THE THEISTIC THOUGHT-SYSTEMS FROM WHICH THE IDEAS=20 HAVE BEEN ACQUIRED. THUS THE CYCLIC YUGA (EON / AGE) ROUNDS OF A=20 FINITE UNIVERSE, EMANATIONS FROM GODHEAD AND SHAKTI, DAYS OF BRAHMA=20 AND SUCH IDEAS ARE PRESENTED WITHOUT THEIR PROPER CONTEXT AND=20 MEANING. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE AUTHENTIC VAISNAVA SOURCES, THE WORLD- AGE YUGAS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE YUGA AVATARAS OF HARI, OR KRISHNA- VISHNU (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM) WHO IS THE=20 TRANSCENDENT DEITY, AND THE SOURCE OF ALL SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL=20 REALMS AND WORLDS (VYUHAS AND LOKAS). HOWEVER THE T S MASTERS DO NOT=20 PROPERLY PRESENT THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE YUGAS TO THE TRANSCENDENTAL=20 DEITY. WHILE THERE IS SOME EMANATIONISM IN THE MASTERS' DOCTRINES,=20 IT IS NOT PRESENTED ACCURATELY FROM EITHER THE VAISHNAVA OR VAISHNAVA- RELATED EARLIEST FORMS OF PURE LAND BUDDHISM. INSTEAD, THE SAVING=20 DEITIES OF OTHER-POWER PURE LAND BUDDHISM ARE REPRESENTED MORE AS=20 DEPENDENT-ARISING PRODUCTS OF MIND AND DUALISM. OUTSIDE=20 OF 'VISUALIZATION', AND THE HIGHEST, SUBTLEST MATERIAL STATES, THE=20 DEITIES HAVE NO TRANSCENDENT PERSONAL EXISTENCE IN THE DHARMA KAYA.=20=20=20 BUT THE T MASTERS DO NOT REPRESENT BUDDHIST VOIDISM OR ADVAITA=20 VEDANTIST IMPERSONALISM PURELY EITHER. THEIR 'BUDDHISM' SEEMS A=20 SYNTHESIS OF VAISHNAVA DOCTRINES AND THE TEACHINGS OF SEVERAL=20 DIFFERENT TRADITIONS OF BUDDHISM. THEY TRY TO ASSOCIATE THEIR=20 AMALGAMATED BUDDHIST TEACHINGS WITH SRI LANKAN THERAVADA, TIBETAN AND=20 ZEN BUDDHISM, THIS CREATES A STRANGE BREW WHEN THE EMANATIONISM OF=20 VAISHNAVISM (WITHOUT ITS DIVINE SOURCE) IS ADDED TO THE MIX. WHEN=20 THE DAYS OF BRAHMA ETC. ARE DESCRIBED, THE ORIGIN OF BRAHMA (HELIOS=20 PHANES) IN THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD (NARAYANA) IS NOT REALLY=20 STRESSED. IN THESE AND MANY OTHER CASES, THE MAHATMAS DO NOT=20 DELIVER TO THEIR STUDENTS A "CLEAR AND ACCURATE" SYNTHESIS OF=20 ANCIENT TEACHINGS AND SCRIPTURES. IN FACT THEY SEEM TO HAVE HAD AN=20 AGENDA TO EDIT-OUT THE THEISTIC CONTEXT AND CONTENT OF THE IDEAS THAT=20 THEY USED. THUS THEIR PRODUCT (THE MAHATMA LETTERS) APPROPRIATES=20 ELEMENTS FROM BOTH THEISTIC AND ATHEISTIC TRADITIONS AND CORRUPTS=20 THESE, FORMING AN ATTEMPT TO HARMONIZE ELEMENTS OF THEISTIC=20 COSMOGONIC REVELATION, WITH MODERN WATERED-DOWN NEO-VEDANTISM AND AN=20 EQUALLY CORRUPTED FORM OF NEO-BUDDHISM. BY CREATING SUCH A NON- HISTORICAL HODGE-PODGE OF SPURIOUSLY 'ANCIENT' DOCTRINES FROM VARIOUS=20 MIS-USED SOURCES, THE THEOSOPHICAL TEACHERS RENDER THEIR CHELAS=20 INCAPABLE OF CLEAR, ACCURATE , RATIONAL THOUGHT INVOLVING THESE=20 MATTERS. A BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF REAL INDIC TRADITIONS WOULD HAVE=20 INSURED THAT THE AUTHOR OF THIS NOTE DID NOT ACCUSE A VAISHNAVA=20 BHAKTI-YOGIN OF TEACHINGS THAT WERE "VEDANTIST". BECAUSE THE=20 MASTERS AND OTHER TS WRITERS FREQUENTLY CONFOUNDED AND MERGED AND=20 MISREPRESENTED INDIC THOUGHT AND TRADITIONS, THEOSOPHISTS TYPICALLY=20 HAVE NO REAL GRASP OF THE MOST BASIC TRUTHS REGARDING THESE REAL- WORLD TRADITIONS. HAVING ACCEPTED HPB'S "READER'S DIGEST"-LIKE=20 CONDENSED VERSION AND SYNTHESIS OF THE WISDOM TRADITIONS, THEY HAVE=20 CHEATED THEMSELVES OUT OF A MORE DIRECT AND AUTHENTIC EXPERIENCE OF=20 THE SAME.=20=20 THIS GETS TO THE PERSONALITY DEVELOPMENT AND DISCIPLINARY ASPECT OF=20 THE ISSUE. WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO REALLY WANTS TO UNDERSTAND=20 SOMETHING, CHOOSE NOT TO GO TO THE SOURCE AND PROPERLY DISCIPLINE=20 THEMSELF IN ITS UNDERSTANDING ? WHY WOULD A PERSON PREFER TO=20 SPECULATE ABOUT SOMETHING FROM THE OUTSIDE, RATHER THAN STUDYING IT=20 UP-CLOSE IN A SCIENTIFIC, DISCIPLINED MANNER ? THE PROBLEM IS THAT=20 CERTAIN KINDS OF PEOPLE CANNOT SUBMIT TO ANY REAL-WORLD AUTHORITIES=20 AND HATE TO BE REQUIRED TO LIVE BY RULES OF CONDUCT AND STANDARDS OF=20 BEHAVIOR. THEY DON'T WANT TO DISCIPLINE THEIR INQUIRY INTO ANY KIND=20 OF TRADITIONAL APPROACH. THEY DON'T WANT TO BE BOTHERED WITH THE=20 FACTS THAT DISAGREE WITH THEM, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANYTHING=20 THAT REQUIRES REAL DISCIPLINE OR 'SURRENDER'. SUCH PEOPLE WILL=20 TYPICALLY MAKE-UP THEIR OWN ALTER-EGO AUTHORITIES TO VALIDATE=20 THEMSELVES AND / OR GIVE THEMSELVES CREDIBILITY WITH OTHERS. THUS=20 THEY CAN PLAY AT THE HUMILITY AND SURRENDER GAME, WITHOUT EVER REALLY=20 SUBMITTING THEMSELVES FOR INSTRUCTION TO ANYONE. AS A RESULT WE SEE=20 THE ENDLESS PROLIFERATION OF 'HUMBLE SERVANTS' AND 'MESSENGERS' OF=20 THE INVISIBLE OR CONVENIENTLY INACCESSIBLE MASTERS, WHO NEVER REALLY=20 REQUIRE ANY SURRENDER ON 'THEIR' DISCIPLE'S PART. THE 'DISCIPLE'=20 BECOMES, AS A MESSENGER OF THEIR INACCESSIBLE MASTER (S), THE GURU /=20 MASTER OF OTHERS WHO REALLY DO WANT A REAL-WORLD FLESH-AND-BLOOD=20=20 AUTHORITY. THUS THE ENDLESS INNOVATION AND DIFFUSION OF NEW ESOTERIC=20 AND OCCULT 'SPIRITUALITIES' IS BASED ON THE SINCERE SURRENDERED=20 FOLLOWING OF SOME PEOPLE, WHO BLINDLY SUBMIT TO THOSE MASTERS WHO ARE=20 THEMSELVES THE 'SERVANTS' OF ONLY A PROJECTED AUTHORITY-FIGURE OF=20 THEMSELVES.=20=20=20 MEANWHILE IN THE EXOTERIC GREAT RELIGIONS, REAL-WORLD MASTERS REQUIRE=20 REAL-WORLD SURRENDER, DISCIPLINE (DIKSHA) AND SACRIFICES FROM THEIR=20 SURRENDERED STUDENTS, BUT IN RETURN THEY DELIVER THE AUTHENTIC=20 TEACHINGS OF REALLY ANCIENT AND VENERABLE TRADITIONS. 'YOU GET WHAT=20 YOU PAY FOR' ....IN THIS CASE EITHER THE INTELLECTUAL AND DEVOTIONAL=20 HERITAGE OF CENTURIES, OR THE CONCOCTIONS OF MODERN ERA CHEATERS.=20=20 AUTHENTIC TRADITIONS HAVE EXOTERIC LINEAGES, REAL EXAMINABLE ANCIENT=20 SCRIPTURES, REAL ANCIENT HISTORIES AND PRESERVE THE LEGITIMATE=20 TEACHINGS OF THEIR LINEAGES DOCTRINALLY. ETC. SUCH TRADITIONS ARE=20 THE REAL GUARDIANS OF ANCIENT SCRIPTURES AND WISDOM. IT TAKES A=20 LIFETIME OF DISCIPLINED STUDY TO MASTER EVEN A TINY BIT OF WHAT SUCH=20 TRADITIONS HAVE TO OFFER. BUT, THE PROUD 'GNOSTIC' WHO IDOLIZES=20 THEIR OWN BRAIN, WILL NOT USUALLY BE ATTRACTED TO A LIFE TIME OF=20 STUDY IN ANYTHING REALLY DEMANDING OF THEM. THE PROUD GNOSTIC=20 CONCOCTER WOULD RATHER BE SELF-EDUCATED THAN TO ACTUALLY PLUMB THE=20 DEPTHS OF ANYTHING THROUGH REAL SURRENDER AND DISCIPLINED INQUIRY. THE RESULT OF SUCH A PERSON'S SCHOLARLY ENDEAVORS USUALLY SHOWS THEIR=20 DISDAIN FOR PREVIOUS AUTHORITIES AND SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY, THEY=20 WANT 'SPIRITUALITY' WITHOUT 'RELIGION'. THEY WANT TO MASTER SCIENCE=20 OR HISTORY OR SOME FIELD WITHOUT BEING ACTUALLY TRAINED IN THE=20 DISCIPLINES OF THAT FIELD. THEY TEND TO BE MASTERS OF EVERYTHING=20 ONLY IN THEIR OWN OPINION, AND INSTEAD THEY ARE NOT THE REAL MASTERS=20 OF ANYTHING. THEY TEND TO BE DABBLERS, WHO ARE VENERATED AS MASTERS=20 BY GULLIBLE PEOPLE WITH A POOR FUND OF KNOWLEDGE. NOW, IN MY=20 OPINION, HP BLAVATSKY AND HER FRIENDS, WERE BOTH DABBLERS AND THE=20 MASTERS OF SOMETHING. WHAT THEY HAD MASTERED IS ON EXHIBIT FOR ALL=20 TO SEE IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND OTHER PRIMARY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY=20 WRITINGS. IT IS NOT THAT THESE WRITINGS HAVE NO VALUE, BUT ONE=20 SHOULD APPROACH THEM AS WHAT THEY ARE, AND NOT CONFUSE THEM WITH WHAT=20 THEY CLAIM TO BE, THE HIGHEST AUTHORITATIVE TEACHING OF THE ONLY TRUE=20 PHILOSOPHY ON EARTH.=20=20=20 END PART I.=20 From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 06:00:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 93221 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 14:00:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:00:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Rope tricks and Mahatma appearances. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1743 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Well if you read ny piece on the rope trick http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/mos.html and the (somewhat dry academic ) lecture from the same conference by Wiseman and Lamont http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pseudops.html who have just finished a book of the subject (I am just reading an advanced copy now) It is all pretty clear. In a few hours I am putting up a piece about "the Noble Savage"Myth, and the I am off to Indictraditionsand Indiccivilisations, , hope we can finally Daniel C. the Inquesitor'spresent hi exerpt of the Mahatma letters to prove their autenticity. I Have just invited K.Paul Johnson to join also today. I whating for "The Mahatas"to "explain themselve ! http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Do you have documentation about Blavatsky seeing it? Because there > has > > been a large cash reward offered for over a century for anybody who > can > > perform the trick, and it is still uncollected. > > Look in Neff's nook on Blavatsky which collects her "memoirs". It > has been awhile since I read that book, but I am fairly sure she > claimed to have seen the rope trick. As for the reward, some of > those appear to be bogus. There is a reward for ANYONE who can > peform ANY unusual phenomenon and it is uncollected, but that is not > because candidates have not come forth. If the reward is for real I > think arrangement could be made for the trick to e perfomed since it > is not all that difficult. If it is not for real (as I suspect it is > not) then nobody would bother with it From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Nov 19 07:59:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 15:59:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 86735 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 15:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 15:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 15:59:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 94587 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 16:00:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.38) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 16:00:45 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.38 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 11:00:45(EST) on November 19, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.38 To: Subject: partial soluction to not typing in upper case Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:59:43 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01c28fe4$b0733190$26bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Goswami: I haven't had time to read and comment on the message, but do have a technical suggesting regarding how the writing is being done. I have Office XP on my laptop. Reading your latest message into it, I'm able to quickly correct the upper case typing. Taking as example the text: >FOR EXAMPLE, IN INDIA, THE VEDIC AND PURANIC CONCEPT OF >THE SACRAMENTAL SOCIAL BODY (DAIVA VARNASHRAM DHARMA SYSTEM) OF THE >SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA (RIG VEDA PURUSHA SUKTA HYMN) WAS >CORRUPTED BY THE CONSCIENCE-LESS POWERFUL INTO THE OPPRESSIVE >REINCARNATION-AND-KARMA DOCTRINE RELATED BIRTH-CASTE SYSTEM. AS IN >PROTESTANT PURITANISM, A HAPPY PRIVILEGED LIFE WAS CONSIDERED BY THE >ELITE BIRTH-CASTE BRAHMINS TO BE THE RESULT OF COSMIC FAVOR OR SU >KARMA / GOOD KARMA. I selected the text, then specified Format -> change case -> sentence case Word XP changed the text to: >For example, in india, the vedic and puranic concept of >The sacramental social body (daiva varnashram dharma system) of the >Self-sacrificed cosmic purusha (rig veda purusha sukta hymn) was >Corrupted by the conscience-less powerful into the oppressive >Reincarnation-and-karma doctrine related birth-caste system. As in >Protestant puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the >Elite birth-caste brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su >Karma / good karma. While the text does not have perfect capitalization, it's much more readable. I'd suggest looking into getting Word XP if your computer supports it. It would be useful for especially long messages, and text from it can be copied to an email using cut-and-paste. -- Eldon Tucker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami [mailto:bhakti.eohn@verizon.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:53 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ? From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 08:50:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 16:50:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 87283 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 16:50:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 16:50:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 16:50:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 16:50:06 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:49:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Just Answer the letter in full, its a good one. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001d01c28fe4$b0733190$26bba7a7@scribe> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 35708 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Well who can read "soluction" or did you mean "seduction" ? Such nonsense again. Everywhere at official places in the USA the ask=20 you to write in caps, WHY, BECOUSE normal people can read it BETTER. So stop findling around with excuses and B.A.G.'s posting in full.=20 Everybody can read it, besides when Dalval writes in caps nobody says=20 anything.=20 "THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH"...EXAMINING THE=20 ACCURACY AND TRUTHFULNESS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS=20 THE CLAIMED AUTHORITY AND PERSPECTIVE OF THE THEOSPHICAL=20 MASTERS, WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ?=20 AN INTRODUCTION TO THE MAHATMA LETTERS by HH TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA, SHIKSHA MASTER, BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA(LINEAGE)=20 OF VAISHNAVISM MESSAGE NUMBERS IN THE BELOW REFER TO THE=20 MESSAGES. Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theosophists non-evidence and fears to=20 come in the open on Indiancivilisation. brianmuehlbach wrote: Brian: It is easy for Theosophists on this list to=20 finally show us (and the world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly=20 contain genuine oriental teachings or not. And how is this relevant to anything? Bart BA G: THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS, ORIGINALLY KOOT HOOMI (K H )=20 AND MASTER MORYA (M), WHO ARE CONSIDERED BY THEOSOPHISTS=20 AND NUMEROUS NEW AGE GROUPS TO BE THE AUTHORS OF THE OVER=20 100 "MAHATHA LETTERS", HAVE MADE GREAT CLAIMS ABOUT THEIR=20 TEACHING AUTHORITY IN THOSE LETTERS. OTHERS HAVE ACCEPTED=20 THESE MASTERS' CLAIMS TO TEACHING AUTHORITY AS=20 VALID, AND HAVE THUS BASED THEIR ENTIRE WORLD-VIEW AND LIFE=20 CHOICES ON THE TEACHINGS OF THESE THEOSOPHICAL (T) MASTERS.=20 FOR SOME THIS HAS BEEN A LIFE-ENRICHING EXPERIENCE, WHICH HAS=20 INSPIRED PHILOSOPHICAL INQUIRY, INTELLECTUAL GROWTH, VIRTUE,=20 ALTRUISM, A SENSE OF UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD AND OTHER GOOD=20 THINGS IN THEM. THESE THEOSOPHISTS HAVE EXTRACTED THINGS=20 FROM THE TEACHINGS OF THE T MASTERS THAT REINFORCED=20 THEIR INHERENT GOODNESS AND ENCOURAGED THEIR INTELLECTUAL=20 GROWTH AND MORAL DEVELOPMENT AND INTELLECTUAL-AFFECTIVE=20 INTEGRATION ON MANY LEVELS. SUCH A POSITIVE OUTCOME IS NO- DOUBT WHAT H.B. BLAVATSKY AND OTHER OF THE THEOSOPHICAL=20 LEADERS HAD IN MIND AT THE OUTSET OF THEIR MISSION TO CREATE=20 A GLOBAL ORDER DEVOTED TO THEIR ESOTERIC STUDIES.=20 HOWEVER, SOME OF THE CENTRAL IDEAS CONTAINED IN THE T=20 MASTERS' "MAHATMA LETTERS" INSPIRED MALEVOLENT, NOT=20 BENEVOLENT PEOPLE, AND THROUGH THE WORLD-VIEW AND LIFE- CHOICES OF THESE ILL-MOTIVATED PEOPLE, LED TO SOME=20 PERSISTENTLY DANGEROUS GLOBAL IDEOLOGIES AND TRAGIC=20 OUTCOMES IN HISTORY. IT IS A GIVEN THAT THE=20 SAME CAN BE SAID REGARDING SOME IDEAS CONTAINED IN THE=20 VEDAS, OR THE BIBLE ETC. FOR EXAMPLE, IN INDIA, THE VEDIC AND=20 PURANIC CONCEPT OF THE SACRAMENTAL SOCIAL BODY (DAIVA=20 VARNASHRAM DHARMA SYSTEM) OF THE SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC=20 PURUSHA (RIG VEDA PURUSHA SUKTA HYMN) WAS=20 CORRUPTED BY THE CONSCIENCE-LESS POWERFUL INTO THE=20 OPPRESSIVE REINCARNATION-AND-KARMA DOCTRINE RELATED BIRTH- CASTE SYSTEM. AS IN PROTESTANT PURITANISM, A HAPPY=20 PRIVILEGED LIFE WAS CONSIDERED BY THE ELITE BIRTH-CASTE=20 BRAHMINS TO BE THE RESULT OF COSMIC FAVOR OR SU=20 KARMA / GOOD KARMA. THOSE POWERLESS PERSONS SUFFERING=20 FROM POVERTY ETC. WERE CONSIDERED UNWORTHY OF ANYTHING=20 BETTER BY VIRTUE OF THEIR PREVIOUS SINFULNESS AND RESULTANT=20 CURSED BIRTH / VI-KARMA OR BAD KARMA. THUS THIS VEDIC=20 DOCTRINE INTERPRETED BY NON RACIST PEOPLE OF=20 BENEVOLENT GOOD-WILL COULD RESULT IN A JUST AND PEACEFUL,=20 PROGRESSIVE UNIFYING SOCIAL ORDER. HOWEVER THE SAME=20 DOCTRINE COULD RESULT IN OPPRESSION AND BIRTH-CLASS SLAVERY=20 WHEN INTERPRETED BY RACIST PERSONS OF ILL-WILL. IN THE SAME=20 WAY THE CHRISTIAN MISSION TO GO OUT AND SAVE PEOPLE MAY BE=20 THE INSPIRATION FOR EITHER ALTRUISTIC, BENEVOLENT=20 AND SOCIALLY UNIFYING ACTS THAT BUILD NON-SECTARIAN HUMAN=20 COMMUNITY,OR THE GOSPEL MISSION MAY BE MISINTERPRETED AS A=20 MANDATE TO FORCIBLY 'CONVERT' HUMANITY IN COLONIAL AND=20 MUSLIM JIHADI-LIKE CAMPAIGNS.=20 IT DOES NOT SERVE THE BEST INTEREST OF HUMANITY TO IGNORE=20 THE HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE IDEAL OF THE VEDIC=20 VARNASHRAM DHARMA SYSTEM DOCTRINE AND THE HORRIFIC=20 PATHOLOGICAL REALITY OF THE BIRTH-CASTE SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT=20 HELP HUMANITY TO IGNORE THE HISTORICAL REALITY OF THE=20 RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DOCTRINE OF CHRISTIAN MISSION AND=20 ITS PERVERTED MANIFESTATION, THE DOCTRINE OF EURO-AMERICAN=20 GLOBAL CONQUEST. IN THE SAME WAY IT IS NOT IN THE BEST=20 INTEREST OF HUMANITY TO IGNORE OR TO TRY TO COVER-UP /=20 OBSCURE THE HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP OF CERTAIN THEOSOPHICAL=20 IDEAS TO COLONIAL 'WHITE' ARYAN RACISM, LATER NAZI=20 ARYOSOPHISM, AND THE DIFFUSION OF THESE IDEAS INTO VARIOUS=20 OTHER SOCIALLY PATHOLOGICAL, RACIST AND OTHER SCIENTISTIC=20 MOVEMENTS. IDEAS HAVE HISTORY, AND EVEN THE BEST OF IDEAS=20 ARE MISUNDERSTOOD AND ABUSED OR CORRUPTED OVER=20 TIME AND DISTANCE AS THEY DIFFUSE THROUGH VARIOUS EXISTING=20 THOUGHT-SYSTEMS AND LANGUAGES. TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCE=20 MODIFY IDEAS. EVEN WHEN AN ATTEMPT IS MADE TO PROTECT AN=20 IDEA FROM MODIFICATION BY DOCTRINALIZING IT, VARYING=20 PERSPECTIVES ALLOW FOR DOCTRINES TO BE INTERPRETED IN=20 DIFFERENT WAYS. THUS A NON RACIST AND A RACIST=20 READING THE PURUSHA SUKTA WILL SEE DIFFERENT DOCTRINES IN IT.=20 A DOCTRINE OR CREED (CREDO=3DSHRADDHA), LIKE BEAUTY CAN=20 EXIST 'IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER', AS WELL AS CODIFIED IN=20 DOCUMENTS. AS A RESULT, PERSONS OF GOOD-WILL AND THOSE OF=20 ILL-WILL CAN SEEM TO PROFESS THE SAME CREED, BUT THE CONTENT=20 OF THE CREED, THE MEANING OF THE WORDS IS NOT THE SAME FOR=20 THEM. THE DOCUMENT IS THE SAME, THE DIFFERENCE=20 BEING IN THEIR PERSPECTIVE.=20 SO, WHILE I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE AT THE OUTSET OF THIS=20 SERIES OF ARTICLES THAT MANY PEOPLE OF GOOD-WILL AND=20 ALTRUISTIC BEHAVIOR HAVE FOUND AND STILL FIND INSPIRATION IN=20 THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND THEOSOPHY, AS AN HISTORIAN OF=20 IDEAS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED WITH RELIGION IN RELATIONSHIP=20 TO HUMAN SUFFERING, HUMAN RIGHTS AND SOCIAL=20 JUSTICE ISSUES, I WILL BE FOCUSING ON SOME OF THE MORE=20 PROBLEMATIC TEACHINGS IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS, WHICH HAVE=20 HAD A PATHOLOGICAL SOCIAL INFLUENCE THROUGH THEIR ADOPTION=20 AND INTERPRETATION BY PEOPLE OF ILL-WILL IN THE HISTORY OF THE=20 LAST CENTURY PLUS.=20 THE AUTHORITY CLAIMED FOR THE THEOSOPHICAL MAHATMAS Subject: absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G]=20 "Extract: "It was the mission of Madame Blavatsky, under the=20 instructions of thoseAdepts, to give to the world selected portions of=20 that=3D=20 archaic teaching. Itshould be remembered that an Adept -- A MASTER,=20 IS ONE WHO HAS ACHIEVEDIMMORTALITY, and therefore has the=20 power to perceive truth as it is and at will to reflect it without distorti= =3D=0D =3D=20 on.=20 It is because no one of lesser degree can claim that power always and with certainty that THEIR TESTIMONY=20 MUST BEREGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of=20 occult doctrine and practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally=20 that from the point ofview of the "original programme" of the Society, no=20 theosophical associationhas any raison d'etre if it does not remain true=20 to the Masters and theirteaching. There are some who seem to believe=20 that it is possible to befaithful to the Masters while denying even the=20 theoretical truth of theirteaching. This is where the responsibility of the= =3D=0D =3D=20 old Theosophical Societyis so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma=20 Letters the writer had occasion to point out in what important particulars = =3D=0D =3D=20 that Society showed by its actions a serious divergence from the spirit=20 and letter of the originalteaching. That volume proves beyond question=20 that H. P. B.'s writings areabsolutely consistent with the Masters'=20 teachings, and in nothing is thismore clearly discernible than in her=20 exposition of the doctrines relating to the Life after Death." A. TREVOR BARKER.LONDON,December, 1924." BA G: SO TO BEGIN WITH, THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS HAVE BEEN=20 CLAIMED TO POSSESS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY, AND H.P. BLAVATSKY=20 HAS BEEN ASSERTED AS THEIR RELIABLE "ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT"=20 SPOKESPERSON.=20 "Mahatma Letter No. 134 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm [Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a=20 message from Master Morya.] Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th. " " It is useless for a member to argue 'I am one of a pure life, I=20 am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations=20 are for good etc.' and he, at the same time, building by his acts and=20 deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What=20 have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and=20 of Sang-gyas to do with the SHASTERS and Orthodox Brahmanism?=20 There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading=20 the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE PATH OF=20 ERROR, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of=20 us. THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE=20 ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and now, it is=20 not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want=20 us. Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a Nastika as they=20 call us? None."=20 BA G: IN THIS QUOTE, THE "SHASTERS" (SHASTRAS, HOLY SANSKRIT=20 SCRIPTURES) OF INDIA ARE REJECTED, AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE T=20 MASTERS AND HPB ARE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED WITH THERAVADIN=20 (SOUTHERN OR ATHEISTIC) BUDDHISM, CENTERED IN SRI LANKA,=20 WHICH WAS DRIVEN OUT OF INDIA DURING AND SUBSEQUENT TO THE=20 REIGN OF THE MAHAYANA BUDDHIST EMPEROR ASOKA. ASOKA'S OWN=20 BUDDHIST MASTER HAD AN ASHRAM IN MATHURA, THE ANCIENT=20 CAPITAL AND EDUCATIONAL UNIVERSITY 'VATICAN CITY' OF=20 ROYAL KRISHNA-CENTRIC VAISHNAVISM, WHICH THE PURE LAND=20 TRADITION OF MAHAYANA BUDDHISM IS CLOSELY RELATED TO. THE=20 FORM OF BUDDHISM "DRIVEN AWAY" FROM INDIA WAS THAT OF SRI=20 LANKAN RELATED THERAVADIN BUDDHISM.=20 THE TS TEACHINGS CONTINUALLY MERGE CONTRADICTORY MAHAYANA=20 AND THERAVADIN BUDDHIST DOCTRINES, ESPECIALLY IN THEIR=20 COMBINED USE OF NEPALESE-TIBETAN WITH SRI LANKAN SOURCES.=20 HOWEVER, THEY SEEM TO CONTAIN NO APPRECIATION OF THE=20 INTIMATE HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN VAISHNAVISM AND=20 PURE LAND BUDDHISM, AS IS APPARENT FROM ALL THE SANSKRIT=20 BUDDHIST TEXTS, ICONOGRAPHY AND INTERDISCIPLINARY=20 EVIDENCE IN ANCIENT COMBINED VAISHNAVA AND PURE LAND=20 BUDDHIST CENTERS OF WORSHIP LIKE VRINDAVANA-MATHURA .=20 INSTEAD OF CORRECTLY ASSOCIATING THE MAHAYANA DOCTRINES,=20 RITES, ICONOGRAPHY ETC. OF NEPALESE-TIBETAN BUDDHISM WITH=20 EARLIER THEISTIC KRISHNA-CENTRIC VAISHNAVISM, THE T S=20 MASTERS GENERALLY IGNORE THE PROFOUNDLY=20 IMPORTANT VAISHNAVA LINK, AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON=20 THE 'ESOTERIC' DECONSTRUCTION OF OTHER-POWER SALVIFIC=20 BUDDHIST TRANSCENDENTALISM, AND WATERING-DOWN OF THE=20 THEISTIC ASSOCIATIONS WITH 'HINDUISM' TO RE-PRESENT N- TIBETAN BUDDHISM AS MERELY A COVERED FORM OF THERAVADA.=20 OF COURSE THIS CAMPAIGN OF THEOSOPHY REINFORCED THE=20 EXOTERIC-THEISM-VERSUS-ESOTERIC-ATHEISM DICHOTOMY ALREADY=20 IN N-TIBETAN BUDDHISM. ESOTERIC VOIDISM HAUNTS MAHAYANA=20 BUDDHISM IN THE SAME WAY THAT ESOTERIC ATHEISM=20 HAUNTS 'HINDUISM' IN THE FORM OF EXTREME IMPERSONAL=20 ADVAITA VEDANTA, AND ESOTERIC GNOSTICISM STILL HAUNTS=20 CHRISTIANITY IN THE WEST. THUS WHILE CLAIMING A LOVE OF INDIA=20 AND HER SACRED TRADITIONS, IN FACT, THE THEOSOPHISTS=20 REJECTED HER AUTHENTIC TRADITIONS OF SALVIFIC=20 TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM, THE DOMINANT EXOTERIC BHAKTI=20 TRADITIONS OF KRISHNA-VISHNU, SHIVA AND DEVI, TO=20 PROMOTE A FORM OF EXOTERICALLY HINDU-IZED BUT ESOTERIC,=20 COVERED SYNCRESTIC BUDDHISM. THE T MASTERS WERE NOT=20 MASTERS OF THE CORPUS OF SANSKRIT OR SOUTHERN INDIAN=20 DRAVIDIAN SACRED VISHNU, SHIVA, DEVI AND MARUGAN ETC,=20 LITERATURES. THEY DID NOT TEACH ABOUT THE DIRECT=20 RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PURE LAND BUDDHISM AND VAISHNAVISM,=20 AND THEY SEEMED TO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT THE GREAT DEVOTIONAL,=20 SALVIFIC TRADITIONS OF EITHER NORTHERN OR SOUTHERN INDIA.=20 THEY PRESENTED THEMSELVES AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES ON=20 ANCIENT WISDOM, BUT APPARENTLY FELT THAT=20 HONORING THE SOURCES OF THEIR WISDOM, THE "SHASTERS" THAT=20 THEY DISDAINED, WAS NOT NECESSARY. THUS THEY PRESENTED=20 THEIR 'OWN' SYSTEM OF THOUGHT, USING LANGUAGE AND TEACHINGS=20 FROM VARIOUS SHASTRAS WITHOUT PROPERLY REPRESENTING=20 THOSE TEXTS, OR THEIR SOURCE, THE SUPREME DEITY OF THE=20 VEDAS AND PURANAS, UPANISHADS, SAMHITAS, TEMPLE=20 ARCHANA VIGRAHA WORSHIP , BHAKTI HYMNOLOGY ETC.=20 THE EASTERN TEACHINGS OF THE T MASTERS ARE A CONCOCTION OF=20 DOCTRINES DRAWN PRINCIPALLY FROM VAISHNAVA AND BUDDHIST=20 SOURCES, AND THEY CLAIM TO BE THE "HIGHEST AUTHORITY" OF=20 THIS "ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY" ON EARTH. IN THE BELOW QUOTE, WE=20 CAN SEE THE GENERAL ATTITUDE THAT THEOSOPHISTS HAVE=20 TOWARDS THE "DEITY VISUALIZATIONS" OF THE "HIGH=20 SCHOOL" LEVEL OF TIBETAN BUDDHISM, WHILE THE NO NAMA-RUPA=20 (NAME-FORM) PRACTICE OF ZEN BUDDHISM IS CALLED THE PhD=20 PROGRAM. IT SEEMS IN THE BELOW, THAT BLOFELD'S ATTITUDE IS=20 THE SAME AS THAT OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY TEACHING ON=20 THIS MATTER. Subject: Re: Master KH on "God": Mahatma Letter No. 10 [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G] > But what about the 6 or 7 schools of yoga. Did they not cover all=20 the > bases? I am not sure I understand the question, but different schools were=20 developed to meet the needs of different temperaments. In his book=20 TANTRIC MYSTICISM IN TIBET Blofeld argued that the different schools=20 are like different grades in the public school system. Mantra yoga,=20 which is based on the simple repetition of a sound, is the=20 most "elemebtary" level, whereas Tantric Tibetan schools, with their=20 elaborate DEITY VISUALIZATIONS is akin to HIGH SCHOOL. and ZEN IS=20 THE PhD PROGRAM. Blofeld's idea is that not everyone is ready for a=20 PhD.=20 BA G: THEOSOPHY TEACHES THAT THERE ARE PLANETARIES AND=20 ASCENDED MASTERS OR 'BODHISATTVAS', BUT THERE IS NO=20 TRANSCENDENTAL SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, WHO IS THE=20 SOURCE OF SUCH BEINGS. IN THEOSOPHY THE DHARMA KAYA, OR=20 ULTIMATE REALITY IS TOTALLY IMPERSONAL, AND PERSONALITY ONLY=20 EXISTS IN A QUALIFIED STATE IN THE NIRMANYA (OR SAMBHOGYA)=20 KAYA. SO THE T S MASTERS ARE THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES OF=20 THE ONE TRUE PHILOSOPHY ON EARTH, AND CLEARLY TEACH A=20 BUDDHISM THAT REJECTS THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTALISM OF=20 THE VAISHNAVA-RELATED MAHAYANA TRI KAYA (TRINITY), IN FAVOR=20 OF A SRI LANKAN AND ZEN RELATED FORM OF THERAVADIN=20 BUDDHISM. EVEN SO, THE "ABSOLUTE NOTHING" ( SEE=20 MASEO ABE FOR EXAMPLE) OF ORTHODOX SRI LANKAN- RELATED=20 THERAVADIN BUDDHISM IS NOT AUTHENTICALLY AND CONSISTENTLY=20 REPRESENTED THROUGHOUT THE LETTERS OF THE MAHATMAS.=20 BA G: NOW WE HAVE A GENERAL IDEA OF THE MASTERS' AUTHORITY=20 CLAIMS, THE EXTENT OF THEIR SHASTRIC KNOWLEDGE-BASE AND THE=20 EASTERN ASPECT OF THEIR PERSPECTIVE. THEIR WRITINGS ARE FULL=20 OF THOUGHT-FORMS, LANGUAGE AND REFERENCES WHICH CLEARLY=20 INDICATE A EUROPEAN HIGHER EDUCATION, SO THEOSOPHICAL LORE=20 TAKES THIS INTO ACCOUNT. OTHERS (THE HARE BROTHERS ETC,)=20 HAVE MADE TEXTUAL STUDIES OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS=20 FOR INTERNAL EVIDENCE OF THEIR AUTHORSHIP. HOWEVER, I AM NOT=20 CONCERNED WITH THE MASTERS CLASSICAL WESTERN EDUCATION IN=20 THIS SERIES OF COMMENTS ON THE MAHATMA LETTERS. I AM=20 CONCERNED WITH WHETHER OR NOT THE LETTERS REPRESENT THE=20 EASTERN TRADITIONS THAT THEY HAVE SO OBVIOUSLY DRAWN FROM=20 ACCURATELY. AT THIS POINT, WE COME TO THE QUESTION OF THE=20 CLAIMED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MASTERS KOOT HOOMI,=20 MORYA AND MADAME H.P. BLAVATSKY, WHO WAS CONSIDERED THEIR=20 ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT REPRESENTATIVE. WHAT AUTHORITY IS=20 CLAIMED FOR HER ? IS SHE CONSIDERED AS EQUALLY INFALLIBLE AS=20 SOME THEOSOPHISTS CONSIDER THE MASTERS K H AND M ? IN THE=20 BELOW, IT IS CLAIMED THAT MADAME BLAVATSKY WAS ACTUALLY AN=20 INCARNATION OF SERAPIS, THE MASTER OF K H AND M THEMSELVES !=20 Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002. "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B. ? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky=20 "From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the=20 Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or=20 Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis=20 (being a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using=20 the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of=20 self-sacrifice." These insights help us to understand more fully the=20 significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky:=20 "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail=20 themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon=20 European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . . "=20 BA G: THUS WHILE HPB WAS PLAYING AT BEING THE STUDENT OF HER=20 MASTERS K H AND M, THEOSOPHISTS TEACH THAT SHE WAS=20 ACTUALLY THEIR MASTER. THE WHOLE SCHEME GETS QUITE=20 CONVOLUTED, WITH THE CAST OF T MASTERS EVENTUALLY BEING=20 CREDITED WITH HUMAN PROGRESS IN GENERAL, THROUGH=20 THEIR ASTOUNDING LITANY OF PREVIOUS INCARNATIONS.=20 Subject: Re: 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G]=20 "Now is this author saying she copied it verbatim? The Voice is=20 based on the Stanzas of Dyzan right? And people have said it here and=20 there that there is no such thing as Senzar language as she called it? Is=20 that right? Well, she gets credit for no other reason than=20 translating the thing into English. And if my memory serves me=20 correctly that she said that she PULLED THIS OUT OF HER MASTER'S (MM)BRAIN WHILE HE WAS TOUCHING HER TEMPLES. And that she had=20 to make his English more fluent. Or was that the other story when she=20 was with him in Tibet? I get the stories confused. But she says clearly=20 that the words of The Voice, anyway, are NOT her own. But it is not=20 proof positive that she did not plaigerize it."... BA G: THE MAHATMA LETTERS ARE PART OF THE LARGER BODY OF=20 THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS, WHOSE GREATEST EARLY CONTRIBUTOR=20 WAS MADAME HPB / HER MASTERS. THERE ARE MANY CLAIMS MADE=20 ABOUT THE MYSTICAL 'PRECIPITATION', AUTOMATIC WRITING=20 OR 'CHANNELING' (MODERN TERM) OF THE MASTERS' TEACHINGS=20 THROUGH HPB AND OTHERS. AGAIN I AM NOT AS CONCERNED WITH=20 THESE ISSUES AS I AM INTERESTED IN THE USE OR=20 MISUSE AND MISREPRESENTATION OF AUTHENTIC, REDACTED /=20 CORRUPTED OR CONCOCTED ANCIENT EASTERN SOURCE-WORKS. LIKE=20 JOSEPH SMITH'S MIRACULOUS TRANSLATION OF THE EGYPTIAN "BOOK=20 OF MORMON" TABLETS, OR WORKS CLAIMING TO BE BASED ON=20 DOCUMENTS ABOUT JESUS FOUND IN A TIBETAN LAMASERY, OR THE=20 CLAIMED "ESSENE GOSPEL" OF THE BOGUS MODERN SO-CALLED=20 ESSENES, THERE IS A PATTERN TO THE EMERGENCE AND=20 PRESENTATION OF ESOTERIC AND NEO-GNOSTIC SPURIOUS 'ANCIENT'=20 SOURCE WORKS. THESE TYPICALLY ARE MIRACULOUSLY PRODUCED=20 TRANSLATIONS OF SOME HIDDEN, LOST OR OBSCURE TEXT,=20 INSCRIPTIONS OR OTHER REVELATION, WITH BUILT-IN DENIABILITY=20 WHEN IT COMES TO AUTHENTICATION OF THE SOURCE.=20 THERE IS ALWAYS SOME REASON WHY THE ORIGINAL CANNOT BE=20 PRODUCED, SO THAT OTHERS CAN ANALYZE IT FOR AUTHENTICITY,=20 AND COMPARE THE ORIGINAL TEXT'S 'MIRACULOUS TRANSLATION'=20 FOR ACCURACY. IN THE CASE OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS, AND=20 THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN", THE PROBLEM OF AUTHENTICITY HAS BEEN=20 AVOIDED BY CLAIMING THAT THESE WRITINGS WERE PRODUCED=20 THROUGH THE SPIRITUALISTIC MEDIUMSHIP OF HPB.=20 BEFORE HER CAREER AS A THEOSOPHICAL REVELATOR OF ANCIENT=20 EASTERN WISDOM IN INDIA, SHE WAS A MEDIUM AND CONJUROR IN=20 SPIRITUALIST S=C9ANCE AND MEDIUMS) CIRCLES IN AMERICA. SHE WAS=20 EXTRAORDINARILY WELL READ, KNEW SEVERAL LANGUAGES, AND WAS=20 A GREAT STORY TELLER AND PRODIGIOUS WRITER WHO ONCE RAN A=20 WRITING SHOP, AND WAS EXPERT IN JUST THE SKILLS SHE WOULD=20 NEED TO TAKE DICTATION FROM THE INVISIBLE MASTERS. ALTHOUGH=20 SHE SEEMED TO OVERTLY HATE JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY, SHE=20 COULD ALSO BE AN OUTSPOKEN CHAMPION FOR THOSE SHE=20 CONSIDERED WRONGED OR OPPRESSED. A COMPLEX AND BRILLIANT=20 WOMEN, HPB COMMANDED RESPECT EVEN FROM SOME EDUCATED=20 AND POWERFUL MEN, IN AN AGE WHEN WOMEN WERE NOT EXPECTED=20 TO BE THE INTELLIGENT CHAMPIONS OF ANYTHING. IT SHOULD BE=20 KEPT IN MIND THAT THE SOCIAL EVILS THAT WERE LATER TO=20 MANIFEST FROM SOME OF HER SEEDS OF THOUGHT, WERE SURELY=20 NOT ANTICIPATED OR DESIRED BY HER. (I OBVIOUSLY DO NOT ACCEPT=20 THE IDEA THAT SHE WAS 'SERAPIS', AND THUS AN ALL-KNOWING=20 MASTER OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL INFLUENCES OF TIME.) AT SOME=20 POINT IN HER CONJURING AND MINOR-LEAGUE MEDIUMSHIP, SHE 'GOT=20 RELIGION' SO TO SPEAK, AND EMBARKED ON A LIFE-LONG MISSION TO=20 BETTER THE CONDITION OF HUMANKIND. SHE WAS NO=20 DOUBT WELL MOTIVATED, BUT PRODUCED A MIXED WORK THAT WAS=20 PART GENIUS AND PART NONSENSE AND TRICKERY. THE QUESTION=20 IS ...WHY SHOULD PEOPLE BANDON THE STUDY OF AUTHENTIC=20 ANCIENT RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL SOURCE-WORKS TO ACCEPT=20 HER / THE MAHATMAS' WRITINGS AS THE ULTIMATE=20 AUTHORITY ON THE WORLD'S HIDDEN MYSTERIES ?=20 The Mahatma Letters. [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN QUOTED TEXT MINE, BA G] "BTW -- even if HPB STOLE HER IDEAS and theories from all the ancient=20 and=20 modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes,=20 Pythagorus, Plato,=20 Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- WHY SEND EVERYONE TO=20 THEM to learn new languages and dig it out for themselves, covering the=20 same tracks that Blavatsky did -- when all of it was so CLEARLY AND=20 ACCURATELY synthesized in the SD (along with other explanatory=20 writings of HPB and associated scriptural confirmations) in the common=20 language that most everyone of a thoughtful mind in the world, today,=20 can understand?"=20 ."In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate=20 truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in=20 the "revelations" of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner -= =3D=0D =3D=20 - where intuition and reason are the only Gods worth listening to."=20 BA G: THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM AS FAR AS I AM=20 CONCERNED. IT IS A MATTER OF THE BASIC INTEGRITY OR=20 RELIABILITY OF THE INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED IN THE=20 MAHATMA LETTERS, AND THE ACKNOWLEDGED WRITINGS OF H.P.=20 BLAVATSKY AND THE OTHER PROMINENT PERSONALITIES OF=20 THE EARLY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND MOVEMENT. WHAT TRUTH=20 DID THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS ACTUALLY CONVEY ? WHY SHOULD=20 EVERYONE GO TO THE THE MASTERS, INSTEAD OF TO THE STILL=20 EXTANT AUTHENTIC SOURCES ? DID THE MASTERS AND H.P.=20 BLAVATSKY ALWAYS "CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY" SYNTHESIZE AND=20 REPRESENT IMPORTANT ANCIENT TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS IN HER=20 WORK? OR WERE THERE SERIOUS OMISSIONS, CONTRADICTIONS,=20 AND OTHER ERRORS? WERE SOME OF THEIR REPRESENTATIONS OF=20 ANCIENT TRADITIONS SERIOUSLY FLAWED, CORRUPTED BY=20 EXTREME BIAS AND / OR EVEN ACTUALLY DISHONEST?=20 THE ABOVE CURRENT THEOSOPHIST'S VIEW REGARDING "THE ONLY=20 GODS WORTH LISTENING TO.", SHOULD BE COMPARED TO THE=20 STATEMENT BELOW, OF MASTER KOOT HOOMI HIMSELF.=20 REGARDING ATHEISM IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS... "Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. -- Ed]=20 NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED "GOD" BY HUME,=20 INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY=20 (ABRIDGED).=20 Received at Simla, 1881-? '82.=20 [CAPS FOR EMPHASIS IN THE QUOTED TEXT BELOW ARE MINE, BA G] NEITHER our philosophy nor ourselves BELIEVE IN A God, least of all=20 in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G."=20 ... "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS.=20 We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know=20 there is in our system NO SUCH THING AS GOD, EITHER PERSONAL OR=20 IMPERSONAL. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and=20 Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great=20 delusion. The word "God" was invented to designate the unknown cause=20 of those effects which man has either admired or dreaded without=20 understanding them, and SINCE WE CLAIM AND THAT WE ARE ABLE TO=20 PROVE WHAT WE CLAIM -- i.e. the knowledge of that cause and causes=20 we are in a position to maintain THERE IS NO God OR=20 Gods BEHIND THEM." ...=20 BA G: CONFUSION IN THE MASTER RESULTS IN CONFUSION IN THE CHELA IN THE BELOW, THE AUTHOR HIMSELF DEMONSTRATES WHY=20 ATTENTION SHOULD BE PAID TO UNDERSTANDING EASTERN THOUGHT=20 AND TRADITIONS, AND INDIVIDUAL TEXTS AND PERSONS, FROM=20 RELIABLE, HISTORICALLY AUTHENTIC SOURCES. HE PROFOUNDLY ERRS=20 IN IDENTIFYING MYSELF (BA G) WITH ..."Vedantist and Buddhist=20 sectarian and separatist teachings"....=20 IF HE HAD ACQUIRED ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE SUBJECT IN=20 GENERAL FROM CLEAR AND ACCURATE, RELIABLE SOURCES, HE NEVER=20 COULD HAVE CONFUSED ME WITH A "Vedantist". IF HE HAD ANY=20 UNDERSTANDING OF THE VARIOUS REAL-WORLD SOURCES AND=20 TRADITIONS INVOLVED, AND HAD READ AND UNDERSTOOD MY=20 BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH ON THE SITE WHERE HIS COMMENT WAS=20 POSTED, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CONFUSED ME WITH "sectarian and=20 separatist teachings" I AM A PERSON WHO HAS STUDIED DEEPLY IN=20 NUMEROUS TRADITIONS, HAVING A DISTINGUISHED HISTORY OF=20 SERVICE IN NON-SECTARIAN INTERFAITH ACTIVISM. MY OWN=20 TEACHINGS ARE ANYTHING BUT "separatist". AS A SHIKSHA=20 (INSTRUCTING) MASTER, IN A LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM FROM WHICH=20 SOME OF THE MASTERS' / BLAVATSKY'S TEACHINGS HAVE BEEN=20 APPROPRIATED, I HAVE SOME FAMILIARITY WITH THE=20 SANSKRIT TERMS THEY USED, AS FOUND IN THE REAL ANCIENT=20 SOURCE=20 WORKS. I ALSO HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE DIFFERENCES=20 BETWEEN=20 SOME OF THE VARIOUS SCHOOLS OF 'HINDU' THOUGHT. AS A MASTER=20 IN A=20 BHAKTI YOGA LINEAGE, IT IS LAUGHABLE TO HEAR MYSELF REFERRED=20 TO AS=20 A "VEDANTIST" IN SUCH A WAY.=20 Message 8852 of 8901=20 From: leonmaurer@a...=20 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. Assuming that you agree with the VEDANTIST AND BUDDHIST=20 SECTARIAN AND=20 SEPARATIST TEACHINGS OF BAG and GS as well as with most popular=20 aspects of=20 modern reductive science (if not any other "religion") -- don't you=20 think=20 that your hatred of HPB (the great initial synthesizer of all these=20 disparate, contradictory, one tracked, and separate religions,=20 sciences and=20 philosophies) has gone much too far, and is, in effect, doing a great=20 disservice to humanity at large? From this point of view, you should=20 be=20 ashamed of yourself. And, maybe, you, and your cohorts should also=20 stop=20 pounding on all us poor, deluded and misled=20 theosophical "fundamentalists."=20 (Apropos, I wonder if your "separatists" or us "synthesists" have the=20 right=20 to be labeled as such? :-) In any event, I'm satisfied that the=20 ultimate=20 truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in=20 the "revelations"=20 of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner -- where=20 intuition=20 and reason are the only Gods worth listening to. ONE OF MY MAIN CRITICISMS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY=20 TEACHINGS IS THAT THEY MISREPRESENT TEACHINGS FROM=20 GENUINELY ANCIENT THEISTIC AND ATHEISTIC SOURCES BY=20 APPROPRIATING, DISTORTING, RE-CONTEXTING AND=20 MISREPRESENTING THEM. FOR INSTANCE THE MAHATMAS' TEACHINGS=20 SOMETIMES MAKE USE OF IDEAS FROM VAISHNAVA TRADITIONS, BUT=20 MAKE NO PROPER REFERENCE TO THE THEISTIC THOUGHT-SYSTEMS=20 FROM WHICH THE IDEAS HAVE BEEN ACQUIRED. THUS THE CYCLIC=20 YUGA (EON / AGE) ROUNDS OF A FINITE UNIVERSE, EMANATIONS=20 FROM GODHEAD AND SHAKTI, DAYS OF BRAHMA AND SUCH IDEAS ARE=20 PRESENTED WITHOUT THEIR PROPER CONTEXT AND MEANING. FOR=20 EXAMPLE, IN THE AUTHENTIC VAISNAVA SOURCES, THE WORLD- AGE YUGAS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE YUGA AVATARAS OF HARI, OR=20 KRISHNA-VISHNU (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM)=20 WHO IS THE TRANSCENDENT DEITY, AND THE SOURCE OF ALL=20 SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL REALMS AND WORLDS (VYUHAS AND=20 LOKAS). HOWEVER THE T S MASTERS DO NOT PROPERLY PRESENT=20 THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE YUGAS TO THE TRANSCENDENTAL=20 DEITY. WHILE THERE IS SOME EMANATIONISM IN THE MASTERS'=20 DOCTRINES, IT IS NOT PRESENTED ACCURATELY FROM EITHER THE=20 VAISHNAVA OR VAISHNAVA-RELATED EARLIEST FORMS OF PURE LAND=20 BUDDHISM. INSTEAD, THE SAVING DEITIES OF OTHER-POWER PURE=20 LAND BUDDHISM ARE REPRESENTED MORE AS DEPENDENT-ARISING=20 PRODUCTS OF MIND AND DUALISM. OUTSIDE OF 'VISUALIZATION', AND=20 THE HIGHEST, SUBTLEST MATERIAL STATES, THE DEITIES HAVE NO=20 TRANSCENDENT PERSONAL EXISTENCE IN THE DHARMA KAYA.=20 BUT THE T MASTERS DO NOT REPRESENT BUDDHIST VOIDISM OR=20 ADVAITA VEDANTIST IMPERSONALISM PURELY EITHER.=20 THEIR 'BUDDHISM' SEEMS A SYNTHESIS OF VAISHNAVA DOCTRINES=20 AND THE TEACHINGS OF SEVERAL DIFFERENT TRADITIONS OF=20 BUDDHISM. THEY TRY TO ASSOCIATE THEIR AMALGAMATED BUDDHIST=20 TEACHINGS WITH SRI LANKAN THERAVADA, TIBETAN AND=20 ZEN BUDDHISM, THIS CREATES A STRANGE BREW WHEN THE=20 EMANATIONISM OF VAISHNAVISM (WITHOUT ITS DIVINE SOURCE) IS=20 ADDED TO THE MIX. WHEN THE DAYS OF BRAHMA ETC. ARE=20 DESCRIBED, THE ORIGIN OF BRAHMA (HELIOS PHANES) IN THE=20 PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD (NARAYANA) IS NOT REALLY=20 STRESSED. IN THESE AND MANY OTHER CASES, THE MAHATMAS DO=20 NOT DELIVER TO THEIR STUDENTS A "CLEAR AND ACCURATE"=20 SYNTHESIS OF ANCIENT TEACHINGS AND SCRIPTURES. IN FACT THEY=20 SEEM TO HAVE HAD AN AGENDA TO EDIT-OUT THE THEISTIC CONTEXT=20 AND CONTENT OF THE IDEAS THAT THEY USED. THUS THEIR PRODUCT=20 (THE MAHATMA LETTERS) APPROPRIATES ELEMENTS FROM BOTH=20 THEISTIC AND ATHEISTIC TRADITIONS AND CORRUPTS=20 THESE, FORMING AN ATTEMPT TO HARMONIZE ELEMENTS OF=20 THEISTIC COSMOGONIC REVELATION, WITH MODERN WATERED-DOWN=20 NEO-VEDANTISM AND AN EQUALLY CORRUPTED FORM OF NEO- BUDDHISM. BY CREATING SUCH A NON-HISTORICAL HODGE-PODGE OF=20 SPURIOUSLY 'ANCIENT' DOCTRINES FROM VARIOUS=20 MIS-USED SOURCES, THE THEOSOPHICAL TEACHERS RENDER THEIR=20 CHELAS INCAPABLE OF CLEAR, ACCURATE , RATIONAL THOUGHT=20 INVOLVING THESE MATTERS. A BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF REAL INDIC=20 TRADITIONS WOULD HAVE INSURED THAT THE AUTHOR OF THIS NOTE=20 DID NOT ACCUSE A VAISHNAVA BHAKTI-YOGIN OF TEACHINGS THAT=20 WERE "VEDANTIST". BECAUSE THE MASTERS AND OTHER TS WRITERS=20 FREQUENTLY CONFOUNDED AND MERGED AND MISREPRESENTED INDIC=20 THOUGHT AND TRADITIONS, THEOSOPHISTS TYPICALLY HAVE NO REAL=20 GRASP OF THE MOST BASIC TRUTHS REGARDING THESE REAL- WORLD TRADITIONS. HAVING ACCEPTED HPB'S "READER'S DIGEST"- LIKE CONDENSED VERSION AND SYNTHESIS OF THE WISDOM=20 TRADITIONS, THEY HAVE CHEATED THEMSELVES OUT OF A MORE=20 DIRECT AND AUTHENTIC EXPERIENCE OF THE SAME.=20 THIS GETS TO THE PERSONALITY DEVELOPMENT AND DISCIPLINARY=20 ASPECT OF THE ISSUE. WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO REALLY WANTS=20 TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, CHOOSE NOT TO GO TO THE SOURCE=20 AND PROPERLY DISCIPLINE THEMSELF IN ITS UNDERSTANDING ? WHY=20 WOULD A PERSON PREFER TO SPECULATE ABOUT SOMETHING FROM=20 THE OUTSIDE, RATHER THAN STUDYING IT UP-CLOSE IN A SCIENTIFIC,=20 DISCIPLINED MANNER ? THE PROBLEM IS THAT CERTAIN KINDS OF=20 PEOPLE CANNOT SUBMIT TO ANY REAL-WORLD AUTHORITIES=20 AND HATE TO BE REQUIRED TO LIVE BY RULES OF CONDUCT AND=20 STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR. THEY DON'T WANT TO DISCIPLINE THEIR=20 INQUIRY INTO ANY KIND OF TRADITIONAL APPROACH. THEY DON'T=20 WANT TO BE BOTHERED WITH THE FACTS THAT DISAGREE WITH=20 THEM, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANYTHING THAT REQUIRES=20 REAL DISCIPLINE OR 'SURRENDER'. SUCH PEOPLE WILL TYPICALLY=20 MAKE-UP THEIR OWN ALTER-EGO AUTHORITIES TO VALIDATE=20 THEMSELVES AND / OR GIVE THEMSELVES CREDIBILITY WITH OTHERS.=20 THUS THEY CAN PLAY AT THE HUMILITY AND SURRENDER GAME,=20 WITHOUT EVER REALLY SUBMITTING THEMSELVES FOR INSTRUCTION=20 TO ANYONE. AS A RESULT WE SEE THE ENDLESS PROLIFERATION=20 OF 'HUMBLE SERVANTS' AND 'MESSENGERS' OF THE INVISIBLE OR=20 CONVENIENTLY INACCESSIBLE MASTERS, WHO NEVER REALLY=20 REQUIRE ANY SURRENDER ON 'THEIR' DISCIPLE'S PART. THE 'DISCIPLE'=20 BECOMES, AS A MESSENGER OF THEIR INACCESSIBLE MASTER (S),=20 THE GURU / MASTER OF OTHERS WHO REALLY DO WANT A REAL- WORLD FLESH-AND-BLOOD AUTHORITY. THUS THE ENDLESS=20 INNOVATION AND DIFFUSION OF NEW ESOTERIC=20 ANDOCCULT 'SPIRITUALITIES' IS BASED ON THE SINCERE=20 SURRENDERED FOLLOWING OF SOME PEOPLE, WHO BLINDLY SUBMIT=20 TO THOSE MASTERS WHO ARE THEMSELVES THE 'SERVANTS' OF=20 ONLY A PROJECTED AUTHORITY-FIGURE OF THEMSELVES.=20 MEANWHILE IN THE EXOTERIC GREAT RELIGIONS, REAL-WORLD=20 MASTERS REQUIRE REAL-WORLD SURRENDER, DISCIPLINE (DIKSHA)=20 AND SACRIFICES FROM THEIR SURRENDERED STUDENTS, BUT IN=20 RETURN THEY DELIVER THE AUTHENTIC TEACHINGS OF REALLY=20 ANCIENT AND VENERABLE TRADITIONS. 'YOU GET WHAT=20 YOU PAY FOR' ....IN THIS CASE EITHER THE INTELLECTUAL AND=20 DEVOTIONAL HERITAGE OF CENTURIES, OR THE CONCOCTIONS OF=20 MODERN ERA CHEATERS. AUTHENTIC TRADITIONS HAVE EXOTERIC=20 LINEAGES, REAL EXAMINABLE ANCIENT SCRIPTURES, REAL ANCIENT=20 HISTORIES AND PRESERVE THE LEGITIMATE TEACHINGS OF THEIR=20 LINEAGES DOCTRINALLY. ETC. SUCH TRADITIONS ARE THE REAL=20 GUARDIANS OF ANCIENT SCRIPTURES AND WISDOM. IT TAKES A=20 LIFETIME OF DISCIPLINED STUDY TO MASTER EVEN A TINY BIT OF=20 WHAT SUCH TRADITIONS HAVE TO OFFER. BUT, THE PROUD 'GNOSTIC'=20 WHO IDOLIZES THEIR OWN BRAIN, WILL NOT USUALLY BE ATTRACTED=20 TO A LIFE TIME OF STUDY IN ANYTHING REALLY DEMANDING OF THEM.=20 THE PROUD GNOSTIC CONCOCTER WOULD RATHER BE SELF-EDUCATED=20 THAN TO ACTUALLY PLUMB THE=20 DEPTHS OF ANYTHING THROUGH REAL SURRENDER AND DISCIPLINED=20 INQUIRY. THE RESULT OF SUCH A PERSON'S SCHOLARLY ENDEAVORS USUALLY=20 SHOWS THEIR DISDAIN FOR PREVIOUS AUTHORITIES AND SCIENTIFIC=20 METHODOLOGY, THEY WANT 'SPIRITUALITY' WITHOUT 'RELIGION'.=20 THEY WANT TO MASTER SCIENCE OR HISTORY OR SOME FIELD=20 WITHOUT BEING ACTUALLY TRAINED IN THE DISCIPLINES OF THAT=20 FIELD. THEY TEND TO BE MASTERS OF EVERYTHING ONLY IN THEIR=20 OWN OPINION, AND INSTEAD THEY ARE NOT THE REAL MASTERS OF=20 ANYTHING. THEY TEND TO BE DABBLERS, WHO ARE VENERATED AS=20 MASTERS BY GULLIBLE PEOPLE WITH A POOR FUND OF KNOWLEDGE.=20 NOW, IN MY OPINION, HP BLAVATSKY AND HER FRIENDS, WERE BOTH=20 DABBLERS AND THE MASTERS OF SOMETHING. WHAT THEY HAD=20 MASTERED IS ON EXHIBIT FOR ALL TO SEE IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS=20 AND OTHER PRIMARY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY WRITINGS. IT IS NOT=20 THAT THESE WRITINGS HAVE NO VALUE, BUT ONE SHOULD APPROACH=20 THEM AS WHAT THEY ARE, AND NOT CONFUSE THEM WITH WHAT=20 THEY CLAIM TO BE, THE HIGHEST AUTHORITATIVE TEACHING OF THE=20 ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY ON EARTH.=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Eldon B Tucker" wrote: > Goswami: >=20 > I haven't had time to read and comment on the message, but do have=20 a > technical suggesting regarding how the writing is being done. >=20 > I have Office XP on my laptop. Reading your latest message into it, I'm > able to quickly correct the upper case typing.=20 >=20 > Taking as example the text: >=20 > >FOR EXAMPLE, IN INDIA, THE VEDIC AND PURANIC CONCEPT OF=20 > >THE SACRAMENTAL SOCIAL BODY (DAIVA VARNASHRAM DHARMA=20 SYSTEM) OF THE=20 > >SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA (RIG VEDA PURUSHA SUKTA=20 HYMN) WAS=20 > >CORRUPTED BY THE CONSCIENCE-LESS POWERFUL INTO THE=20 OPPRESSIVE=20 > >REINCARNATION-AND-KARMA DOCTRINE RELATED BIRTH-CASTE=20 SYSTEM. AS IN=20 > >PROTESTANT PURITANISM, A HAPPY PRIVILEGED LIFE WAS=20 CONSIDERED BY THE=20 > >ELITE BIRTH-CASTE BRAHMINS TO BE THE RESULT OF COSMIC=20 FAVOR OR SU=20 > >KARMA / GOOD KARMA. >=20 > I selected the text, then specified >=20 > Format -> change case -> sentence case >=20 > Word XP changed the text to: >=20 > >For example, in india, the vedic and puranic concept of=20 > >The sacramental social body (daiva varnashram dharma system) of=20 the=20 > >Self-sacrificed cosmic purusha (rig veda purusha sukta hymn) was=20 > >Corrupted by the conscience-less powerful into the oppressive=20 > >Reincarnation-and-karma doctrine related birth-caste system. As in=20 > >Protestant puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the=20 > >Elite birth-caste brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su=20 > >Karma / good karma. >=20 > While the text does not have perfect capitalization, it's much more > readable. I'd suggest looking into getting Word XP if your computer > supports it. It would be useful for especially long messages, and text > from it can be copied to an email using cut-and-paste. >=20 > -- Eldon Tucker >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami [mailto:bhakti.eohn@v...] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:53 AM > > To: theos-talk@y... > > Subject: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ? From levey_steven@hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 10:11:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 18:11:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 39325 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 18:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 18:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.15.23) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 18:11:52 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:11:52 -0800 Received: from 67.227.11.23 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:11:51 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World partial soluction to not typing in upper case Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:11:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2002 18:11:52.0007 (UTC) FILETIME=[229AF570:01C28FF7] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.23] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Eldon-I do have Office XP but not Word, so I will look into that. Thanks-Steve >From: "Eldon B Tucker" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Theos-World partial soluction to not typing in upper case >Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:59:43 -0800 > >Goswami: > >I haven't had time to read and comment on the message, but do have a >technical suggesting regarding how the writing is being done. > >I have Office XP on my laptop. Reading your latest message into it, I'm >able to quickly correct the upper case typing. > >Taking as example the text: > > >FOR EXAMPLE, IN INDIA, THE VEDIC AND PURANIC CONCEPT OF > >THE SACRAMENTAL SOCIAL BODY (DAIVA VARNASHRAM DHARMA SYSTEM) OF THE > >SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA (RIG VEDA PURUSHA SUKTA HYMN) WAS > >CORRUPTED BY THE CONSCIENCE-LESS POWERFUL INTO THE OPPRESSIVE > >REINCARNATION-AND-KARMA DOCTRINE RELATED BIRTH-CASTE SYSTEM. AS IN > >PROTESTANT PURITANISM, A HAPPY PRIVILEGED LIFE WAS CONSIDERED BY THE > >ELITE BIRTH-CASTE BRAHMINS TO BE THE RESULT OF COSMIC FAVOR OR SU > >KARMA / GOOD KARMA. > >I selected the text, then specified > > Format -> change case -> sentence case > >Word XP changed the text to: > > >For example, in india, the vedic and puranic concept of > >The sacramental social body (daiva varnashram dharma system) of the > >Self-sacrificed cosmic purusha (rig veda purusha sukta hymn) was > >Corrupted by the conscience-less powerful into the oppressive > >Reincarnation-and-karma doctrine related birth-caste system. As in > >Protestant puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the > >Elite birth-caste brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su > >Karma / good karma. > >While the text does not have perfect capitalization, it's much more >readable. I'd suggest looking into getting Word XP if your computer >supports it. It would be useful for especially long messages, and text >from it can be copied to an email using cut-and-paste. > >-- Eldon Tucker > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami [mailto:bhakti.eohn@verizon.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:53 AM > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ? > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 19 11:04:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 19:04:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 69357 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 19:04:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 19:04:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 19:04:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2002 19:04:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:04:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Rope tricks and hat tricks Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 331 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.246.129.114 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs It occurs to me there is a book by Hereward Carrington called HINDU MAGIC which explains some of the stunts of Indian fakirs. It has been a good while since I saw the book and I do not remember whether there was a section on the rope trick in it or not. It IS a trick, though. It is neither an occult phenomenon nor a myth. From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 19 12:29:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 20:29:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 49947 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 20:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 20:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 20:29:13 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id 6.12c.1b987e0f (30950); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:28:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12c.1b987e0f.2b0bf8f7@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:28:39 EST Subject: Kofi, or Rice? (to lighten us up a bit :-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 HU'S ON FIRST By James Sherman (We take you now to the Oval Office.) George: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening? Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China. George: Great. Lay it on me. Condi: Hu is the new leader of China. George: That's what I want to know. Condi: That's what I'm telling you. George: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China? Condi: Yes. George: I mean the fellow's name. Condi: Hu. George: The guy in China. Condi: Hu. George: The new leader of China. Condi: Hu. George: The Chinaman! Condi: Hu is leading China. George: Now whaddya' asking me for? Condi: I'm telling you Hu is leading China. George: Well, I'm asking you. Who is leading China? Condi: That's the man's name. George: That's who's name? Condi: Yes. George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China? Condi: Yes, sir. George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East. Condi: That's correct. George: Then who is in China? Condi: Yes, sir. George: Yassir is in China? Condi: No, sir. George: Then who is? Condi: Yes, sir. George: Yassir? Condi: No, sir. George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone. Condi: Kofi? George: No, thanks. Condi: You want Kofi? George: No. Condi: You don't want Kofi. George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N. Condi: Yes, sir. George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N. Condi: Kofi? George: Milk! Will you please make the call? Condi: And call who? George: Who is the guy at the U.N? Condi: Hu is the guy in China. George: Will you stay out of China?! Condi: Yes, sir. George: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N. Condi: Kofi. George: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone. (Condi picks up the phone.) Condi: Rice, here. George: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you get Chinese food in the Middle East? From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 19 15:54:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 23:54:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 23624 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 23:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 23:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 23:54:28 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.a9.31c5bd97 (2612) for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:54:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:54:22 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World partial soluction to not typing in upper case To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Eldon and Gopi, An alternative in windows, I have Win 98, would be the following: Left Click "Start" on the Pop-up board move cursor to "Programs" Move cursor to the following additional selections of the new board that appear: "Accessories" "Accessibility" Then you will also see 2 "Options" additionally listed on the last Pop-out board: a. "Accessibility Wizard"-you may select this to have Windows Wizard makes the adjustments you choose and elect. b. "Magnifier" this can magnify text to the degree you specify. John From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 19 16:08:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 00:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 69095 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 00:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 00:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 00:08:22 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1bf.14e8e76e (2612) for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:08:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1bf.14e8e76e.2b0c2c72@cs.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:08:18 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Kofi, or Rice? (to lighten us up a bit :-) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hey Abboooooooooooooooottt !!! Waa Haa Haa Haa Ha!! From ramadoss@gbronline.com Tue Nov 19 16:52:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 00:52:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 9220 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 00:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 00:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 00:52:21 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.226] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC4A5A7C0088; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:50:18 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021119184957.00a893d0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:54:19 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rice - Arroz? (to lighten us up a bit :-) In-Reply-To: <12c.1b987e0f.2b0bf8f7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George introducing Rice to a Spanish Speaking audience: (I am translating to English except "Rice") George: My friends, glad to see you all. It is my pleasure to introduce Condoleeza Arroz......etc etc --------------------- Arroz is the spanish translation of Rice. George did make the above kind of statement and I saw it on TV over a year ago. The guy who wrote the spanish speech did not know who Condoleeza Rice is!! mkr ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eldon@theosophy.com Tue Nov 19 16:54:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 00:54:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 82785 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 00:54:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 00:54:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 00:54:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 26028 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 00:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (66.27.176.113) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 00:55:09 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.27.176.113 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 19:55:09(EST) on November 19, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.27.176.113 To: Subject: a fresh approach from the Source Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:54:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c2902f$59e75270$7700a8c0@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Bhakti Ananda Goswami: Your latest message was a good change of pace from the less serious and hastily written postings I've seen come flying by on the list. You've written a good description of what you think and how you see Theosophy -- at least Part I of that description. You suggest that it's best to go to the source rather than speculate from the outside. Your statement refers to people going to original works of the great religions and philosophies of the world. Within Theosophy, that is frequently mentioned in another context. Theosophical students are encouraged to read the source writings of Theosophy, especially those of Blavatsky's. This is so they can learn exactly what she had said, rather than second-hand opinion of later writers that may not represent things the same way. Even if one decides to disagree with Blavatsky, at least one knows what she had actually said. In a bigger sense, the effort with Theosophy is doing the same thing. It attempts to get to the source of Truth rather than speculate from the outside. It is an attempt at original insight into the way things are, drawing upon various religions and philosophies by way of illustration. It is an original attempt at a formulation of the basic reality of life that is not merely an official offshoot or branch of some particular already existing religion or belief system. It does not claim to be second hand truth, borrowed from Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Platonism, or anything already established belief system that we know of. Being a fresh formulation, it is direct to the source rather than a second-hand reformulation of something else. This is not "direct from God" in the form of a Prophet or Messiah, but rather from those having a good understanding of life and seeing a need for the effort. The theosophical student does not approach the Mahatma Letters and Blavatsky's writings as "the highest authoritative teaching of the only true philosophy on earth." Perhaps some may. I hope not too many do so. It's not the intended approach. There is no claim to being an exclusive approach, a path that everyone must follow. The materials are useful as a springboard for deeper thought and may contain some brilliant gems of truth, but the highest value comes from reading between the lines, from the intuitive insights that arise from the study. These highest truths are not the precise ideas spelled out in black-and-white on the printed page, lofty as some of them may be. Theosophy does not attempt to establish a church. There is not a religious hierarchy. There is no one to give orders and no spelled out spiritual practice that all must follow in order to be a Theosophist. There are some general principles that one can live one's life by, but there is not a formal sent of disciplines that one must follow in order to undertake this particular path. In the absence of established religious authority, it is easy for dabblers to set themselves up as experts and claim more knowledge than they have. The same is true with any popular writer selling books on religion, philosophy, mental health, politics, and other topics that may draw a following. Wherever there is freedom of thought, there will be people promoting ill-informed and worthless schemes alongside those of value. Experts can offer their opinions, but it's up to the intelligence and common sense of the reader to pick out the best materials. A set of ideas can be used for the good or the bad. In order for Theosophy to be a force for good in the world, it needs to be a living tradition and not simply a set of ideas found on old books on library shelves. The living tradition is of people who understand it, communicate it, benefit from it, and are able to use it to noble purpose. That is, as long as there are people that continued to practice the theosophical dharma, it continues as a source of light in the world. It is these people who "interpret" it or explain what it says and means so that the doctrines are not misunderstood. There may also be groups of individuals intend on harmful purposes. They may perpetuate what might be considered dark or possibly even evil dharmas. They may borrow ideas from different religions and philosophies, perhaps even theosophical books, and use them to their own purposes. They, obviously, give their own interpretations as to what the books mean. When someone is searching for the Path and looks into Theosophy, they are not abandoning authentic ancient religious and philosophical sources. The authority is not in the books or public doctrines of established religions. It is in the wisdom of advanced individuals who may have little if any recognition in their church or community, individuals sometimes obvious for their saintliness but other times obscure, unseen, blending in, and unnoticed. The wisdom of the ages is in the Mysteries, which may include individuals in any outer tradition. We might speculate as to who these people are, how they know each other, how they pass on their knowledge, and where they are. They represent the living tradition of humanity's inner knowledge. You may find bits of different religions in Blavatsky's writings, perhaps not always expressed exactly as a religion would view them, and when you find errors, difficult to understand statements, or the appearance of a collage of ideas that isn't fully worked out. Considering what we're looking at, I'd expect this. If we are looking at the original giving birth to an entirely new religious philosophy, seeing it take shape at its point of inception, we'd see such things. If the basic truths of the universe were being freshly reformulated for a new era in the West, there would be a bit of effort to find words, terms, ideas to express it. There would be bugs to work out. The effort may not start as a finished product. Going from a primal understanding, perhaps out of deep insight as trained in the Mysteries, Blavatsky might not begin with a polished system of thought. It would take later generations, including our own, to continue perfecting it into something of genuine value in the world. The esoteric tradition is found in an inner path that one takes. This may come from the support of an established religion, but religious authority is not required. The rules of conduct one follows are ethical, moral, and arise from an inner sense of rightness. They come from insight into life and not due to an external list of commandments from an established religion. One is good because one is awakened enough to realize that is part of the nature of life. One is not good because one is told to be good by someone with power over one. Discipline comes from a genuine love of what one is doing and not from a bitterly-accepted punishing trial that is imposed upon one. There is not a notion of surrender to something outside one, some higher power in church or heaven ordering one to be a certain way or do a certain deed. There rather is self-forgetfulness as one becomes at-one with one's situation in life. As the notion of a separate self disappears, so does the notion of an external authority and notion of another than one is interacting with. There is just what one is doing and a sense of being creatively absorbed in it. The first step in a study of Theosophy is to wonder what it is. What is Theosophy? For what purpose does the Theosophical Society exist? What is one studying and how is it useful in everyday life? What does it mean and how does one seek deeper knowledge of it? These basic questions, sincerely asked, are the first step on taking a genuine path towards the spiritual. It's possible and all too easy to become distracted and lose one's way on that path. But the path is there and one can tread it. And theosophical students often feel inclined to clear out some of the underbrush to make that path easier to tread by those that follow. -- Eldon Tucker From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 19 17:31:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 01:31:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 67270 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 01:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 01:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 01:31:22 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.27.31ab06dc (2612) for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:31:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <27.31ab06dc.2b0c3fdc@cs.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:31:08 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Kofi, or Rice? (to lighten us up a bit :-) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, Sorry the last post somehow went to the wrong destination. My apoligies to all. John From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 19 18:33:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 02:33:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 82200 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 02:33:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 02:33:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 02:33:11 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EKfu-0003Kb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:33:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDAF3D0.6653242A@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:30:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rice - Arroz? (to lighten us up a bit :-) References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021119184957.00a893d0@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > George introducing Rice to a Spanish Speaking audience: (I am > translating to English except "Rice") > > George: My friends, glad to see you all. It is my pleasure to > introduce Condoleeza Arroz......etc etc > --------------------- > > Arroz is the spanish translation of Rice. George did make the above > kind of statement and I saw it on TV over a year ago. The guy who > wrote the spanish speech did not know who Condoleeza Rice is!! Do you have a source for this story? As George Bush speaks fluent Spanish, I find the story very hard to believe. And why are you using a Theosophical list to spread gossip? Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 19 18:38:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 02:38:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19257 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 02:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 02:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 02:38:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EKlL-0000VL-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:38:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDAF521.6DAE17F2@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:36:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rice - Arroz? (to lighten us up a bit :-) References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021119184957.00a893d0@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 It turns out that the story is entirely bogus. It was King Juan Carlos of Spain who used "Arroz", and it was as a joke. Now, once again, why are you using this list to spread false and malicious gossip? ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > George introducing Rice to a Spanish Speaking audience: (I am > translating to English except "Rice") > > George: My friends, glad to see you all. It is my pleasure to > introduce Condoleeza Arroz......etc etc From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Tue Nov 19 19:49:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 03:49:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 23163 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 03:49:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 03:49:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 03:49:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 03:49:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:49:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: a fresh approach from the Source THANKS MR. TUCKER Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000501c2902f$59e75270$7700a8c0@scribe> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 9981 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.190.162 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn THANKYOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL REPLY MR. TUCKER. I MOVED UP CLOSE TO THE SCREEN AND READ EVERY WORD OF IT ! THEOSOPHY EXISTED BEFORE HPB AND THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. IN SOME WAYS I SEE MYSELF AS A DEFENDER OF THAT AGELESS, REAL THEOSOPHY. WITH MORE OPEN-MINDED PERSONS LIKE YOURSELF, THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT CAN ACTUALLY PROGRESS BEYOND DOGMATICALLY DEFENDING THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY'S FOUNDERS (REAL OR IMAGINED) AS IF THEY WERE INFALLIBLE. IF WE ARE TRUTH SEEKERS, CAN WE NOT FACE THE TRUTH ABOUT HPB AND HER LIMITS, AND THE LIMITS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS ETC ? THE REAL VALUE OF THE EARLY THEOSOPHISTS WORK IS ONLY OBSCURED BY HAGIOGRAPHIC EFFORTS AND INSISTANCE ON MYSTIFYING THEIR HUMANITY. IT IS ENOUGH TO BE A GREATLY GIFTED OR GREATLY MOTIVATED HUMAN BEING. IN FACT TO ME, IT IS ENOUGH TO BE JUST HUMAN. TO ME EVERY HUMAN IS INESTIMATELY PRECIOUS AND LOVABLE. I DON'T SEE RACES, I SEE SOULS TO LOVE AND BE LOVED. IT IS BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN HOW THOUGHTS OF RACISM ETC. GIVE RISE TO HARMFUL ACTIONS THAT CAUSE SUFFERING TO SOULS, THAT IS WHY I WORK TO ROOT-OUT AND EXPOSE UNTRUTHS AND DANGEROUS IDEAS THAT GIVE RISE TO DANGEROUS ATTITUDES AND ACTIONS. HPB WAS A CRUSADER, AND SO AM I. I DON'T THINK OF US AS BEING ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF ANYTHING. WE ARE BOTH SINCERE IN OUR OWN STRUGGLES FOR THE GREATER GOOD. BY DOING WHAT I AM DOING, I DO NOT THINK OF MYSELF AS HER ENEMY, BUT RATHER AS HER ADMIRER AND FRIEND. IF SHE WERE HERE IN MY ROOM RIGHT NOW, I WOULD BE MORE INCLINED TO GIVE HER A HUG AND DISCUSS THEOSOPHY WITH HER, THAN TO ARGUE WITH HER ABOUT ANYTHING. PAX AND PREMA ! NOT THE ENEMY) BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI --- In theos-talk@y..., "Eldon B Tucker" wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami: > > Your latest message was a good change of pace from the less serious and > hastily written postings I've seen come flying by on the list. You've > written a good description of what you think and how you see Theosophy > -- at least Part I of that description. > > You suggest that it's best to go to the source rather than speculate > from the outside. Your statement refers to people going to original > works of the great religions and philosophies of the world. Within > Theosophy, that is frequently mentioned in another context. Theosophical > students are encouraged to read the source writings of Theosophy, > especially those of Blavatsky's. This is so they can learn exactly what > she had said, rather than second-hand opinion of later writers that may > not represent things the same way. Even if one decides to disagree with > Blavatsky, at least one knows what she had actually said. > > In a bigger sense, the effort with Theosophy is doing the same thing. It > attempts to get to the source of Truth rather than speculate from the > outside. It is an attempt at original insight into the way things are, > drawing upon various religions and philosophies by way of illustration. > It is an original attempt at a formulation of the basic reality of life > that is not merely an official offshoot or branch of some particular > already existing religion or belief system. It does not claim to be > second hand truth, borrowed from Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, > Platonism, or anything already established belief system that we know > of. Being a fresh formulation, it is direct to the source rather than a > second-hand reformulation of something else. This is not "direct from > God" in the form of a Prophet or Messiah, but rather from those having a > good understanding of life and seeing a need for the effort. > > The theosophical student does not approach the Mahatma Letters and > Blavatsky's writings as "the highest authoritative teaching of the only > true philosophy on earth." Perhaps some may. I hope not too many do so. > It's not the intended approach. There is no claim to being an exclusive > approach, a path that everyone must follow. The materials are useful as > a springboard for deeper thought and may contain some brilliant gems of > truth, but the highest value comes from reading between the lines, from > the intuitive insights that arise from the study. These highest truths > are not the precise ideas spelled out in black-and-white on the printed > page, lofty as some of them may be. > > Theosophy does not attempt to establish a church. There is not a > religious hierarchy. There is no one to give orders and no spelled out > spiritual practice that all must follow in order to be a Theosophist. > There are some general principles that one can live one's life by, but > there is not a formal sent of disciplines that one must follow in order > to undertake this particular path. In the absence of established > religious authority, it is easy for dabblers to set themselves up as > experts and claim more knowledge than they have. The same is true with > any popular writer selling books on religion, philosophy, mental health, > politics, and other topics that may draw a following. Wherever there is > freedom of thought, there will be people promoting ill-informed and > worthless schemes alongside those of value. Experts can offer their > opinions, but it's up to the intelligence and common sense of the reader > to pick out the best materials. > > A set of ideas can be used for the good or the bad. In order for > Theosophy to be a force for good in the world, it needs to be a living > tradition and not simply a set of ideas found on old books on library > shelves. The living tradition is of people who understand it, > communicate it, benefit from it, and are able to use it to noble > purpose. That is, as long as there are people that continued to practice > the theosophical dharma, it continues as a source of light in the world. > It is these people who "interpret" it or explain what it says and means > so that the doctrines are not misunderstood. > > There may also be groups of individuals intend on harmful purposes. They > may perpetuate what might be considered dark or possibly even evil > dharmas. They may borrow ideas from different religions and > philosophies, perhaps even theosophical books, and use them to their own > purposes. They, obviously, give their own interpretations as to what the > books mean. > > When someone is searching for the Path and looks into Theosophy, they > are not abandoning authentic ancient religious and philosophical > sources. The authority is not in the books or public doctrines of > established religions. It is in the wisdom of advanced individuals who > may have little if any recognition in their church or community, > individuals sometimes obvious for their saintliness but other times > obscure, unseen, blending in, and unnoticed. The wisdom of the ages is > in the Mysteries, which may include individuals in any outer tradition. > We might speculate as to who these people are, how they know each other, > how they pass on their knowledge, and where they are. They represent the > living tradition of humanity's inner knowledge. > > You may find bits of different religions in Blavatsky's writings, > perhaps not always expressed exactly as a religion would view them, and > when you find errors, difficult to understand statements, or the > appearance of a collage of ideas that isn't fully worked out. > Considering what we're looking at, I'd expect this. If we are looking at > the original giving birth to an entirely new religious philosophy, > seeing it take shape at its point of inception, we'd see such things. If > the basic truths of the universe were being freshly reformulated for a > new era in the West, there would be a bit of effort to find words, > terms, ideas to express it. There would be bugs to work out. The effort > may not start as a finished product. Going from a primal understanding, > perhaps out of deep insight as trained in the Mysteries, Blavatsky might > not begin with a polished system of thought. It would take later > generations, including our own, to continue perfecting it into something > of genuine value in the world. > > The esoteric tradition is found in an inner path that one takes. This > may come from the support of an established religion, but religious > authority is not required. The rules of conduct one follows are ethical, > moral, and arise from an inner sense of rightness. They come from > insight into life and not due to an external list of commandments from > an established religion. One is good because one is awakened enough to > realize that is part of the nature of life. One is not good because one > is told to be good by someone with power over one. > > Discipline comes from a genuine love of what one is doing and not from a > bitterly-accepted punishing trial that is imposed upon one. There is not > a notion of surrender to something outside one, some higher power in > church or heaven ordering one to be a certain way or do a certain deed. > There rather is self-forgetfulness as one becomes at-one with one's > situation in life. As the notion of a separate self disappears, so does > the notion of an external authority and notion of another than one is > interacting with. There is just what one is doing and a sense of being > creatively absorbed in it. > > The first step in a study of Theosophy is to wonder what it is. What is > Theosophy? For what purpose does the Theosophical Society exist? What is > one studying and how is it useful in everyday life? What does it mean > and how does one seek deeper knowledge of it? These basic questions, > sincerely asked, are the first step on taking a genuine path towards the > spiritual. It's possible and all too easy to become distracted and lose > one's way on that path. But the path is there and one can tread it. And > theosophical students often feel inclined to clear out some of the > underbrush to make that path easier to tread by those that follow. > > -- Eldon Tucker From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Tue Nov 19 19:53:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 03:53:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 19274 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 03:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 03:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 03:53:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 03:53:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:53:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART II Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 14450 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.190.162 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? PART 2 by H H TRIDANDI SANNYASI BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA , SHIKSHA (INSTRUCTING) MASTER, BRAHMA-MADHVA-GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM SEE PART I... THEOSOPHICAL PROPOSITIONS 1. THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY OF THE EARTH, THEOSOPHY IDENTIFIED AS BUDDHISM, IS FOUND IN THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS, AND THESE LETTERS ARE THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF ESOTERIC / OCCULT OR HIGHER WISDOM FOR THEOSOPHISTS. NEXT TO THESE LETTERS, THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" ARE OF CANONICAL IMPORTANCE TO THEOSOPHISTS. 2. THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS, AUTHORS OF THE 'MAHATMA LETTERS', ESPECIALLY KOOT HOOMI, MASTER MORYA AND SERAPIS, ARE THE HIGHEST AUTHORITIES WHO HAVE REVEALED THEMSELVES TO HUMANITY. 3. THE MASTER OF THE MASTERS KOOT HOOMI AND MORYA, IS SERAPIS. 4. H.P, BLAVATSKY IS THE RATHER HIDDEN INCARNATION OF SERAPIS. 5.THE BROTHERHOOD OF THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS HAS REINCARNATED THROUGHOUT TIME, GUIDING THE WORLD ( AND EVOLUTION OF THE RACES). THUS ALL PREVIOUS REVELATIONS, RELIGIONS AND ADVANCES IN VARIOUS FIELDS, MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR SUPPOSED RELATIONSHIP TO THE T S MASTERS. 6. THE PRIESTS OF DOGMATIC OR DOCTRINAL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS HAVE CORRUPTED THEIR SCRIPTURES, SO IT IS BETTER TO READ THE MORE AUTHENTIC CORE OF TEACHINGS CONTAINED IN THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" AND THE SYNTHESIZED TEACHINGS OF THE MAHATMAS AND HPB. THERE IS NO NEED TO LEARN LANGUAGES AND STUDY THE SOURCE WORKS THEMSELVES, AS HPB HAS PROVIDED A CLEAR AND ACCURATE SYNTHESIS OF EVERYTHING IN THESE THAT IS SIGNIFICANT TO STUDY. 7. SANNYASIS AND SADHUS ETC. ARE "ON THE PATH OF ERROR", AND THEOSOPHY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHASTRA OF BRAHMINISM. 8. KOOT HOOMI / THEOSOPHY ABSOLUTELY DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD OR GODS. 9, THERE IS AN AMALGAMATION OF MAHAYANA AND THERAVADIN BUDDHISM WITH ADVAITA VEDANTISM AND VAISHNAVA SOURCES IN THE TEACHINGS OF THEOSOPHICAL 'BUDDHISM'. 10. MADAME BLAVATSKY WAS A VERY INTELLECTUALLY GIFTED AND EDUCATED PERSON, WHO WAS THE CENTRAL FIGURE IN THE WHOLE DEVELOPMENT OF THEOSOPHY. WHETHER OR NOT SHE WROTE THE MAHATMA LETTERS WITH THE HELP OF CORPOREAL OR INCORPOREAL BEINGS, MAY OR MAY NOT BE OF IMPORTANCE IN CERTAIN KINDS OF ANALYSIS OF THE LETTERS. THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF THE LETTERS CAN BE EXAMINED IN RELATIONSHIP TO REAL-WORLD ANCIENT TEXTUAL AND LIVING TRADITIONS, TO SEE IF THE MAHATMAS' PRESENTATIONS ARE ACCURATE WITH REGARD TO THOSE THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. LET US NOW CONSIDER SOME OF THE CURIOUS FACTS RELATED TO THE SPECIFIC MIXTURE OF EASTERN AND WESTERN TEACHINGS IN THE MAHATMA LETTERS. In one letter KH writes to Sinnett: ..."Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the 'greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- ..."... From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:12 pm Subject: A Question for Brian about one of his statements Concerning Master KH, Mr. Sinnett said in THE OCCULT WORLD (first published June 1881): "My correspondent is known to me as the Mahatma Koot Hoomi. This is his 'Tibetan Mystic name' - occultists, it would seem, taking new names on initiation. . . ." Mr. Sinnett also writes in the same work that Koot Hoomi was: ". . . a native of the Punjab who was attracted to occult studies from his earliest boyhood. He was sent to Europe while still a youth at the intervention of a relative - himself an occultist - to be educated in Western knowledge, and since then has been fully initiated in the greater knowledge of the East." H.P. Blavatsky in 1884 wrote in LIGHT magazine: ". . . the Master [Koot Hoomi] is a Punjabi, whose family was settled for years in Cashmere." ... "There are a number of primary source documents which show that K.H. was known as "Cashmere" ("Kashmir" or other variant spellings) especially during the years 1875-1878 when H.P.B. and Olcott were living in New York City." From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 12:03 pm Subject: Coleman wrote: "he (K.H.) was known in America as `The Kashmiri Brother.'" What were the Theosophical Society Masters the masters of ? Most of the debates that I have seen regarding the T.S. Masters have focused on the Masters' identity, the 'precipitation' of their letters, H.P. Blavatsky's or someone else's medium-ship or 'channeling' of their thoughts / writings, textual analysis of their letters for contemporary or near-contemporary plagiarized material, stylistic elements, language or other clues to their identity. In my planned series of commentaries on the Mahatma Letters, I do not intend to address any of these things, which have all been chewed before. Rather than chewing-the-chewed, like a cow not done with its cud, I want to provide a reading of the Letters from the perspective of a person familiar with some of the source-works and traditions that the Mahatmas used and / or claimed to be representing. Ideas and the words, written and spoken, and images or symbols and actions that convey them, have history. Innovations occur and get diffused. Ideas spark social movements that wax and wane. Thought-forms, like other 'things' have certain time-and-space limitations. Communication is sent and received in specific forms and languages. Each word or symbol has a content actually intended by its sender, and any number of meanings imposed on it by receivers. Scientifically-minded historians (not historical-fiction writers) want to know what was actually meant by the creators or sender(s) of a document from the past. They want to understand the successive meanings giving to an original or earlier document by later commentators. They want to peel-back the layers of time, and get at the original core of an idea. Such scientifically-minded persons do not want to impose meanings on history, they want to discover the real meanings already there in history. They don't want to 'massage the data' to fit into preconceived notions of history, or to support an agenda of some kind. The real lover of truth wants to understand what really happened, who the real players were, and what their motives, means and actions were etc. Such investigators use scientific methodologies and means of inquiry designed to safe-guard the objectivity and integrity of their efforts. They try to avoid errors by rigorously identifying their sources, to be sure of authenticity. In the case of my own studies, from the very beginning I learned of the value of interdisciplinary research from my father (a research electrobiophysicist), who taught me that errors could be avoided and facts established beyond doubt by approaching a subject or question from a multiplicity of disciplines instead of only one. Thus my studies utilized every discipline that I could bring to bear on a particular question. This has given me a well-rounded grasp of the main subjects of my historical inquiries. In the above quotes, the Master Koot Hoomi (K H) writes about the Tibetans and Penjabi Singhs, Mr. Sinnet says that K H was a native of the Punjab, H.P. Blavatsky says that Koot Hoomi is a Pujabi, and both Blavatsky and others identify K H with Kashmir. I begin my commentary on the Mahatma Letters with these references, because I will be focusing quite a bit on the Vaishnava, Buddhist and related content of the Letters. Tibetan Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Devi worship, Sufism, Sikhism and all the branches of these traditions have their own real world histories. For example, there is a traditional date for the entrance of Padmasambhava into Tibet, and thus an eighth century historical beginning to Tibetan Buddhism. The Advaita Vedantism of Sri Adi Shankaracharya has a history too, as does the successive waves of Ishmali and Sufi Mohammedanism into the Punjab and Kashmir. In the Mahatma Letters there is a curious mix of Atheistic and Theistic (Vaishnava) Advaita Vedanta, Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism, Sikh and Sufi reinterpretations of Vaishnava, Shaivite and Devi teachings, and other amalgamations which can be found ESPECIALLY in the region of Kashmir. In Kashmir today for instance, there may be found Vaishnava-influenced Muslim Sufi 'brahmins' who do not eat flesh, Tantric-influenced Sahajiya Vaishnavas, various Sufi-Vaishnava or Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid groups, and Sikhism, which as another Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid religion is of course related to the Vaishnava and Shaivite Kshatriyas (warrior class) of the Punjab. Thus the name "Singh" is important in this connection. Pure Land Buddhism, as originally in Nepal and Tibet, has its historical origins in Vaishnavism, and so is connected to the strange Kashmiri mix in the thread of Vaishnava doctrines and practices running through the whole region. It is from this regional melting- pot of Indic and Western (Sufi and Gnostic) traditions that the Masters' K H and Morya seem to have acquired some of their unorthodox understanding of the Sanskrit Shastras (scriptures) and to have created their hodge-podge of an 'Eastern' thought system. Whoever they were, they were masters of something, but what was that something? To assess their competence as masters of eastern traditions, one would need themself to be qualified in such traditions. As an instructing master in the Vedic-based Tradition of Vaishnavism, I am qualified to assess the accuracy of the what the masters have presented from my own tradition. Since the oldest literary traditions in the region are clearly those of the Sanskrit Vaishnava-related texts, and the Masters refer to doctrines from these texts, then it is reasonable to assess the Mahatmas' presentation of ideas from these texts to determine their accuracy. THE EXAMPLE OF THE RIG VEDA AND PROTO-MAHAYANA BUDDHISM For example, the Rig Veda is by all estimations very much older than the Advaita Vedantan writings of Adi Sankaracharya, the beginning of Tibetan Buddhism (8th A D), the Era of Asoka or even the life of Sakyamuni Buddha Himself. The Purusha Sukta Hymn is considered by many scholars to be among the oldest surviving writings of humanity. The Purusha Sukta is found in a collection of Vedic Sanskrit Hymns, the Rig Veda. These hymns glorify God under a variety of Names and Forms, as these forms have appeared from the Cosmic Body of the universal self-sacrificed Purusha, Who is described in the Purusha Sukta. In later corruptions of this monotheistic tradition, the forms of Purusha, are demoted to a mere multiplicity of 'gods'. Thus polytheism , pantheism etc. eventually obscured the originality and supremacy of Purusha as the transcendent supreme Deity of the Rig Veda. Purusha assumed a cosmic form for self-sacrifice to create, sustain (as sacramental food / Prasadam) and redeem every world / cosmic manifestation. In the Purusha Sukta, and related Vedic texts, it is clearly understood that Purusha is VISHNU. The Purusha Sukta is still chanted today on Vaishnava altars as the Eucharistic PRASADAM offerings are being made. Another one of Vishnu's Vedic names is Asura (from the root meaning 'being', 'to be, exist'). In the "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism", R. C. Zaehner identifies the cosmic Purusha with the Zoroastrian supreme Deity Ahura Mazda (Ahura=Asura). The Jagganatha or Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha is sometimes called his Vishva Rupa or Virata Rupa. This is one of the theophanies of SRI KRISHNA that was revealed to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita, The cosmic form of God in Jewish mysticism is definitely related to the revelation of Sri Krishna in the Gita. The universal Purusha is of course identified with the Purusha AVATARA FORMS OF VISHNU. In the Vedas, Vishnu is called by many names, including Asura and Purusha. It is Vishnu Who is worshiped in multi-form in the Vedic hymns. This is the tradition of the oldest stratum of Vedic so-called 'Hinduism', and all the principle Vedic Nama-Rupa name-forms of Vishnu are found many centuries later in Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan and related Nepalese Buddhism. There the very ancient Vedic names and forms of Vishnu-Purusha AS LOKSHEVARA, are connected to Vaishnava doctrines, rites, practices, sacramental social order etc.. So the foundation of Tibetan Buddhism is in the much earlier worship of Vishnu-Purusha, without any doubt. When the entire socio-religious cultural milieu in which Sakyamuni's Buddhism first developed was Vedic-Vaishnava, how is it reasonable to assume that the pervasive elements of Vaishnavism in Mahayana Buddhism are later, intrusions or corruptions ? In fact, Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, uses the very Sanskrit Names of Krishna-Vishnu for the ADI BUDDHA, who is also called ADI PURUSHA, BHAGAVAN, PURUSOTAMMA etc. To claim that a younger tradition (Buddhism) owes nothing to its origins is ridiculous. The extremely ancient Purusha Sukta related Forms of Lokesvara are those of Vishnu. The same names and forms are there in both the Buddhist and Vaishnava traditions, and this is not peculiar to the Nepalese- Tibetan form of Buddhism either. Everywhere in Pure Land Mahayana Buddhism it is the same. The names, forms, doctrines, rites etc, of the salvific other-power tradition of Buddhism are closely related to those of Krishna-centric Vaishnavism. When we look at the Sanskrit sources for the Mahatmas' 'Hindu' and 'Buddhist' ideas, again the oldest of these are the Vaishnava and Vaishnava-related scriptures. For those accustomed to thinking of Sanskrit literatures in terms of some generic 'Hinduism', no such thing existed in the ancient world. Scriptures were the testimony of specific traditions, such as the sattvic Vaishnava or Shaivite or tantric Devi worshiping traditions. In the "CULT OF TARA" by S. Beyer, the original Sanskrit for the Tibetan Buddhist rituals of Mother Tara is given. Any Vaishnava pujari priest would immediately recognize these Sanskrit mantrams, hymns and rites ! So, if we are going to seriously consider the claims of the Mahatmas to mastery in Tibetan Buddhism, I want to see evidence in their Letters that they knew of, and understood the close relationship between Tibetan Buddhism, and my own much more ancient Vedic tradition of Vaishnavism. END PART 2 From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 19 20:06:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 04:06:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 99118 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 04:06:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 04:06:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 04:06:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EM8D-0005JL-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:06:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDB09A8.1A3ABB45@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:03:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART II References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? A body of knowledge. > THEOSOPHICAL PROPOSITIONS > > 1. THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY OF THE EARTH, THEOSOPHY IDENTIFIED AS > BUDDHISM, IS FOUND IN THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS, AND THESE LETTERS ARE > THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF ESOTERIC / OCCULT OR HIGHER WISDOM FOR > THEOSOPHISTS. NEXT TO THESE LETTERS, THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" ARE OF > CANONICAL IMPORTANCE TO THEOSOPHISTS. Straw man argument. The rest of your message bcomes meaningless. Bart Lidofsky From ramadoss@gbronline.com Tue Nov 19 20:17:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 04:17:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 71210 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 04:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 04:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 04:17:46 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.91.231] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC6E5EAE0212; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:15:42 -0600 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20021119220737.00e005f0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:12:36 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rice - Arroz? (to lighten us up a bit :-) In-Reply-To: <3DDAF521.6DAE17F2@sprynet.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021119184957.00a893d0@mail.gbronline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 It is not bogus. I saw it on National TV when it happened. mkr At 09:36 PM 11/19/02 -0500, you wrote: > It turns out that the story is entirely bogus. It was King Juan > Carlos >of Spain who used "Arroz", and it was as a joke. Now, once again, why >are you using this list to spread false and malicious gossip? > >ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > George introducing Rice to a Spanish Speaking audience: (I am > > translating to English except "Rice") > > > > George: My friends, glad to see you all. It is my pleasure to > > introduce Condoleeza Arroz......etc etc From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 19 20:21:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 04:21:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 75597 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 04:21:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 04:21:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 04:21:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EMMt-00029p-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:21:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDB0D37.C071BC01@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:19:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Rice - Arroz? (to lighten us up a bit :-) References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021119184957.00a893d0@mail.gbronline.com> <4.2.2.20021119220737.00e005f0@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > It is not bogus. > > I saw it on National TV when it happened. Please find a reference. Bart From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 19 23:12:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 07:12:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 18760 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 07:12:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 07:12:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 07:12:52 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.f4.24fcb1f1 (16781) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:12:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:12:49 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World 2e To Steve: Stanzas of Dzyan. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/16/02 6:19:50 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Although there is no further evidence that Blavatsky in fact used that >book as an idea, biographical fact is, she did know Italian.=20 >reg. "Stanzas," Blavatsky indeed uses this definite Italian word, rather >then the English "verses". I suppose you think you know what you are talking about Well, think again.= =20=20 "Stanza" is a common American English word defined in the American Heritage= =20 Dictionary. It is distinctive from the word "verse" which has a different=20 meaning.=20 stan=E2=80=A2za (st^n2z=C3=BA) n. Abbr. st. 1. One of the divisions of a po= em, composed of=20 two or more lines usually characterized by a common pattern of meter, rhyme= ,=20 and number of lines.=20 [ Italian; See stance ]=20 verse 1 (v=C3=BBrs) n. 1. Abbr. ver. v. a. A single metrical line in a poet= ic=20 composition; one line of poetry. b. A division of a metrical composition,=20 such as a stanza of a poem or hymn.=20 The Book of Dzyan is written in stanzas, not verses. This argument is as=20 foolish and baseless as all your other pronouncements. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 01:50:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 09:50:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 57394 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 09:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 09:50:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 09:50:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 09:50:45 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:50:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART II Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDB09A8.1A3ABB45@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 767 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.107 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn WHAT ARGUMENT ? WHAT 'STRAW MAN' ? PROPOSTION # 1. BELOW IS A STATEMENT OF ASSERTIONS FOUND IN THEOSOPHICAL SOURCES THEMSELVES. --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > > > WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? > > A body of knowledge. > > > THEOSOPHICAL PROPOSITIONS > > > > 1. THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY OF THE EARTH, THEOSOPHY IDENTIFIED AS > > BUDDHISM, IS FOUND IN THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS, AND THESE LETTERS ARE > > THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF ESOTERIC / OCCULT OR HIGHER WISDOM FOR > > THEOSOPHISTS. NEXT TO THESE LETTERS, THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" ARE OF > > CANONICAL IMPORTANCE TO THEOSOPHISTS. > > Straw man argument. The rest of your message bcomes meaningless. > > Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 20 03:12:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 11:11:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 18241 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 11:11:59 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.135.17d86810 (16781) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:11:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <135.17d86810.2b0cc7f7@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:11:51 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white' race. " To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/14/02 3:17:46 PM, bhakti.eohn@verizon.net writes: (snip) >AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND CONTINUES >TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE WILL >HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT. >LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM HUMANITY'S >FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE >DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS WORLD >WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE, THAT >FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE THIS >PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT >BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A PROFOUNDLY >DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY >STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB. I AM >NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER-MINDED >THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI >LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED LOOSE >IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS AND >SETTLE THERE. > >PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF IDEAS >WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN THOSE >IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE. Dear Swami BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI Yes, I agree that there are connotations in the Secret Doctrine that can be interpreted as racist and reflect the common ideas of racial differences in the 19th Century. But what has that got to do with the Seven Rounds and Seven Root Race concept? (It's unfortunate that the word "Race" had to be used in this context.) But, as far as convinced theosophists are concerned, such as those advanced student/teachers on this forum, this seven times seven progressive system of planetary and human evolution is entirely consistent with the involutional and evolutionary processes of Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis as written in the Book of Dzyan (from the Book of the Golden Precepts of the Kiu-ti), which, properly understood and intuitively grasped, is the only way the universe, the planetary system, and the human kingdom, as well as the other three kingdoms of nature, could have come into existence and evolved to the states they are in now. Racial discrimination between those of different skin color or other physical characteristics, culture, country of origin, etc., have nothing to do with this theory, but is a problem solely of man's own selfishness, greeds, and other ethnic and cultural sensibilities. This genetic process doesn't have a gap or loose end in it, starting from the zero-point singularity of the absolute primal beginning, and sliding down the slope of involution and climbing up the ladder of evolution. To deny it would reach down to the core of the theosophical teachings and negate the entire scientifically logical structure upon which it stands. Since all true theosophists cannot be racists in the contemporary sense of the term, what good does it do for you or Brian to try to change our minds about the truths of theosophy, and hammer us with the most transparent propaganda in a futile attempt to falsify theosophy and denigrate HPB? You will never with your weak faith based theologies, that have no real scientifically consistent basis of Cosmogenesis or Anthropogenesis, break through this barrier between us -- due to our contradictory ideas and thought processes... And, especially, with your and Brian/Bridgitte's use of consistently faulty reasoned propaganda techniques. I, for one, have no argument with your belief in a personal God, if such belief will lead to the same goals of universal brotherhood and peace on Earth, that is the aim of theosophy. But, that doesn't mean that we have to believe in or worship such a personal God -- who can give us nothing that we don't already have. However, that doesn't prevent any theosophist from believing in a universal and impersonal consciousness or Higher Self, of which their individual higher egos, their "I am I," or self consciousness, is an integral ray -- that they can call "God" or any other name they choose. In that sense, we are our own creators, and owe our allegiance to no thing or person other than our own Higher Self... Which, in its moral and ethical basis, our conscience, is equivalent to Krishna's or God's consciousness... And, is Impersonal, since it cannot belong to, and can have no interest in any particular individual human being or separate personality... Except, through those great teachers on this mundane plane of existence, from Krishna to Jesus to HPB, and even yourself, who chose that role for themselves -- to help and teach those of 'like" mind. The only way you could "erase racism" from those that misinterpret and misuse the teachings of HPB for that purpose, then, would be to burn all her (and her disciples') books, and kill all the theosophical student/teachers who promulgate their teachings. I don't think you would be willing to go to that extreme. But, even if you did, that would change or erase nothing. And, talking to convinced theosophists (who base their carefully considered philosophical and religious understanding, rather than on blind faith, on logically and scientifically consistent fundamental principles which you cannot refute) about changing their teachings -- will also get you nowhere, and waste your energy (which might be better spent on teaching your disciples to be tolerant and understanding of other peoples thoughts and ideas about how, and on what basis, they approach God consciousness or Self realization). With respect to your honorable Self, Chiam Eleazer Ben Mosher Kohane / a.k.a. Leonardo Hermes Mason / a.k.a. Leon H. Maurer From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 03:51:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 11:51:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 3071 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 11:51:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 11:51:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 11:51:38 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.93.266f073b (4584) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:51:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <93.266f073b.2b0cd144@cs.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:51:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Eldon, Reading Mr. Taylor's excerpt you posted coaxed me to Google search on Kui-te as a transliterative of Dyzan, one itme was or so it seemed to be that "Kui-te" transliterates into the Tibetan as "rgyud-sde". Also in other reference on the list to "Senzar"references are found alluding to the "Twilight Language", this interested me as when "Twilight" is mentioned I always seem to remember the "Dawn Robe" of the Sannyasin's. In inquiry about the "Twilight Language" the search pops up the tradition of "Sandhya Bhasha" and reference to the allegorical Play Prabodha Chandrodaya by Krishna Misra and the Art of Khajuraho. Now when searching for "rgyud-sde" what I found was the "TBRC-The Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center. http://www.tbrc.org/search On the Home page top right is a search entry box where you can enter "rgyud sde" (transliteration of Kui-te (Dyzan)) the Database responds with 122 file listings having the key word term in titles. Also one Monastery, last on the listing,bottum of list. John From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 05:24:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 13:24:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 81347 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 13:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 13:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 13:24:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 13:24:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:24:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Mahatmas ment Aryan as the 5e subrace ! And NOT the 4e or 3e =degraded. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <135.17d86810.2b0cc7f7@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2531 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach The Mahatmas/ Secret Doctrine state; "As the comparatively fair=20 Brahmins have come - when invading India with its dark-colored=20 Dravidians - from the North, so the Aryan Fifth Race must claim its origin from northern regions." (The Secret Doctrine Vol. 2, Page 768) Proving or disproving this is in a scolarly way.=20 The Secret Doctrine also=20 claims (the split Punjab part of today's Pakistan ) is where one still find "the finest men" in compairanche to the "dwarfed" inhabitans of = =3D=0D Bengal ? No to speak of the rest more southern part of India then if only : The dwarfed and weakened men of Bengal and the Deccan with Punjab,=20 where the lethal influence of Mussulman, and later on of European,=20 licentiousness, has hardly touched the orthodox Aryan castes, [and=20 there] one ,still finds the finest men - so far as stature and physical strength go on the whole globe. (Secret Doctrine Vol.II, Adyar=20 1979, p.411) The usage of the word 'Aryan' as in the name of the American and=20 English Theosophical Societies of the time (e.g. Aryan Theosophical=20 Society of New York) has according to the Secret Doctrine, most definite racial implications, , dividing the Indian subcontinent and placin= =3D=0D g the superior racial heritage in a homeland outside of India.=20 And not only are most inhabitants of India seen as inferior race also=20 the "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans,=20 Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other=20 sub-races of the fourth=97and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All=20 these,fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H. In line with the above not only are most inhabitants of India seen as=20 inferior race but: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root=20 race, the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and=20 branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.)=20 and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth=97and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of=20 humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle= =3D=0D b9 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 07:33:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 7630 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:33:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3444 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Eldon and Bhakti Ananda Goswami, Yours is the first exchange on this list in a long time that has moved me to want to resubscribe. I see issues that are much broader than the synthetic, composite nature of Blavatskian Theosophy, indeed that are universal in religious history, in your discussion. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" wrote: IF > WE ARE TRUTH SEEKERS, CAN WE NOT FACE THE TRUTH ABOUT HPB AND HER > LIMITS, AND THE LIMITS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS ETC ? THE REAL VALUE > OF THE EARLY THEOSOPHISTS WORK IS ONLY OBSCURED BY HAGIOGRAPHIC > EFFORTS AND INSISTANCE ON MYSTIFYING THEIR HUMANITY. IT IS ENOUGH TO BE A GREATLY GIFTED OR GREATLY MOTIVATED HUMAN BEING. Many Christians are outraged by the work of the Jesus Seminar and most others ignore it. They cannot face the truth that Jesus was a greatly gifted or greatly motivated human being, or that his teachings were specific to a time and place and must be understood in historical context. He has to be a universal cosmic truthgiver, to satisfy a deep need for absolute certainty in his disciples. Same with HPB, Gurdjieff, Cayce, etc. snip > NOT THE ENEMY) What I read between the lines-- and perhaps am misreading-- is an implicit juxtaposition between 1) ersatz, composite teachings and 2) authentic, pure teachings, with a further implication of "mine's better than yours." The problem with that, as I see it, is that *every* tradition is composite, synthetic, built up with layers of accretion over a long time or constructed by a single individual or group over a short time. Either way, we don't have a choice between synthetic and authentic-- every spiritual tradition is synthetic. Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment of the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God; Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas. Currently I'm studying the Fourth Way teachings of Gurdjieff et al and finding a similar pattern. Gurdjieff, like HPB, gave a dual message: 1) this teaching is a composite of materials gathered in a lifetime of global travel and contacts in many different traditions 2) this teaching is truth itself, ancient spiritual science that trumps all modern science and history, and comes from sources infinitely superior to the sources of modern knowledge. In both cases, the majority of followers blithely ignore the frank honesty of message 1 and attach themselves passionately to the mythmaking of message 2. Are HPB and Gurdjieff to be blamed for the way people, given the choice between believing the truth and the lie, almost always prefer the lie? And furiously attack anyone who questions it? Wondering, Paul From amerman@theosophy.net Wed Nov 20 08:08:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 16:08:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 25701 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 16:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 16:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 16:08:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 29998 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 16:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Wes) (66.75.65.8) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 16:09:11 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.75.65.8 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 11:09:11(EST) on November 20, 2002 X-HELO-From: Wes X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.75.65.8 Message-ID: <005c01c290af$461d5840$08414b42@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: All CAPS Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:50:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Wes Amerman" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=59086689 Brian, You wrote: It's obvious the word is "solution." Spell check functions usually only work in the text fields of email browsers, so message headings or "subject" fields are vulnerable. Typos and wrong words happen, as much as most of us try to avoid them. Your own messages are full of them; the one above contains three, which I have noted. But where do you get the idea that "all caps" are more readable, or that "normal" people prefer them?? It's considered "shouting" in all discussion groups I have ever participated in -- philosophical, cultural, financial and otherwise. I have even seen real-time chat room moderators ask paying subscribers to leave expensive lists where they were abusing a posted "no all caps" rule. Personally, I prefer not to have to read such text, whether from Mr. Goswami, you or Dallas. Thanks, Eldon, for pointing out an alternative. And, while we're on the subject of "netiquette," it's easier on the eyes not to have to read the entire thread to which someone is responding. Who wants to have to wade through every "reply" that copies every previous response to a message? Eldon only replied to the "original message" header of your post, to identify it, having cut and pasted to a new message the relevant part of the previous one. We can all learn from his example of practical brotherhood. Best Regards, Wes From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 08:10:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 16:10:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 97639 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 16:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 16:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 16:10:10 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EXQX-000057-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:10:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDBB309.F4A65A9F@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:06:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART II References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > WHAT ARGUMENT ? WHAT 'STRAW MAN' ? PROPOSTION # 1. BELOW IS A > STATEMENT OF ASSERTIONS FOUND IN THEOSOPHICAL SOURCES THEMSELVES. A straw man is when you use an argument that does not exist and is easy to strike down. Now, of course, you may use word twisting, but, for example, Blavatsky, in her book The Secret Doctrine (which is a book about the true basis of the Universe, but not a revelation of it) calls it a only a small corner of the barest outline. And the Mahatma Letters are simply answers to questions, based on their own view of The Secret Doctrine, and even then, they explicitly state that they have not even verified it for themselves beyond our Solar System. A very far cry from your statement. And, even if you can find somebody who actually believes your statement, it is contradicted by the contents of the Mahatma Letters themselves, which makes your proposition self-contradictory, and, once again, invalid, making any conclusions drawn from it also invalid. > > > THEOSOPHICAL PROPOSITIONS > > > > > > 1. THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY OF THE EARTH, THEOSOPHY IDENTIFIED AS > > > BUDDHISM, IS FOUND IN THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS, AND THESE LETTERS ARE > > > THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF ESOTERIC / OCCULT OR HIGHER WISDOM FOR > > > THEOSOPHISTS. NEXT TO THESE LETTERS, THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" ARE > OF > > > CANONICAL IMPORTANCE TO THEOSOPHISTS. > > > > Straw man argument. The rest of your message bcomes > meaningless. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 08:55:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 16:55:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 42000 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 16:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 16:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 16:55:39 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.2b.31789236 (4584) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:55:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2b.31789236.2b0d1884@cs.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:55:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatmas ment Aryan as the 5e subrace ! And NOT the 4e or... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Brian and all, According to more recent findings the never was an "Aryan" invasion at all. Http://sanskrit.bhaarat.com/Dale/pdf/ORIGINS.PDF Long, but some very interesting content. John From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 09:00:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 17:00:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 33447 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 17:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 17:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 17:00:01 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.148.30645a1 (4584) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:59:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <148.30645a1.2b0d198c@cs.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:59:56 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Paul, Let us know if you get through "Tales Beelzebub Told His Grandchildren" in one piece. Lol. John From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 09:27:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 17:27:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 18214 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 17:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 17:27:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 17:27:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 17:27:08 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:27:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatmas ment Aryan as the 5e subrace ! And NOT the 4e or 3e =degraded. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4969 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.197 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" =20 Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 12:21 pm Subject: "Arya" in Blavatsky's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY =20 H.P. Blavatsky writes in THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY: "=C2rya (Sk.) Lit., 'the holy'; originally the title of Rishis, those=20 who had mastered the '=C2ryasaty=E2ni' (q.v.)and entered the =C2ryanim=E2rga=20 path to Nirv=E2na or Moksha, the great 'four-fold' path. But now the=20 name has become the epithet of a race, and our Orientalists,=20 depriving the Hindu Brahmans of their birth-right, have made Aryans=20 of all Europeans. . . ." Quoted from: http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Aglossary.htm#a Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc =20 BA GOSWAMI: PLEASE NOTE THAT 'ARYA' IS HEREIN TRANSLATED 'THE=20 HOLY'. THE PATH FROM THE SANSKRIT ROOT AR TO THE ASSOCIATED=20 MEANING 'HOLY' GOES STRAIGHT THROUGH ITS MEANING 'WHITE' AS=20 IN 'PURE'. THUS 'HOLY' MOTHER TARA IS CALLED 'ARYA TARA' OR 'WHITE=20 TARA'. THIS THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY DEFINITION OF 'ARYA' AFFIRMS WHAT=20 I HAVE SAID, THAT HPB ET AL UNDERSTOOD THE TERM ARYA OR ARYAN AS=20 COMING FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', AND NOT FROM THE DEITY BIJA=20 (SEED)-MANTRAM NAME HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU), HARA (SHIVA),=20 OR HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESHVARA BUDDHA).=20=20 THIS HARI-ASSOCIATED UNIVERSAL DEITY NAME IS RELATED TO THE SUMERIAN=20 ILU, EAST AND WEST SEMITIC URI, ORI, ARI, ALI, ELI, MITANNI HURRI,=20 ZEND-AVESTAN HVARE, PRE-ZOROASTRIAN ZER, NILO-SAHARAN (EGYPTIAN)=20 HERI (HERU ETC.), NIGER OLU, ALE ETC., AND GRECO-ROMAN HELI / SOLE.=20=20=20 I ASSERT THAT THE TERM ARYA IN REFERENCE TO THE SURA GANA, HARYANA,=20 HARI-JANA 'ARYANS' WHO WORSHIPED VISHNU, WAS LIKE OTHER DEITY=20 PATRONYMICS, IDENTIFYING THE PEOPLE OF-FROM OR RELATED-TO THE SUPREME=20 DEITY HARI, HERI HARA, ELI(JUDEO-CHRISTIAN) , ALI (ALLAH) ETC. THUS=20 THE BLACKS OF THE ANCIENT NIGER AND NILO-SAHARAN LANGUAGE FAMILIES,=20 THE SEMITES OF THE LEVANT, AND THE 'INDO-EUROPEANS' ALL WORSHIPED THE=20 SAME SUPREME DEITY. TESTING THIS, I HAVE FOUND ENDLESS=20 INTERDISCIPLINARY PROOFS. THUS IT IS CLEAR THAT THE VEDIC 'ARYAS'=20 COULD HAVE BEEN ANY 'RACE', BECAUSE THE TERM WAS A WORD OF=20 ASSOCIATION IDENTIFYING SOMEONE OR GROUP WITH THE SUPREME FATHER GOD=20 OF ALL PEOPLES.=20=20 BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > The Mahatmas/ Secret Doctrine state; "As the comparatively fair=20 > Brahmins have come - when invading India with its dark-colored=20 > Dravidians - from the North, so the Aryan Fifth Race must claim its > origin from northern regions." (The Secret Doctrine Vol. 2, Page=20 768) >=20 > Proving or disproving this is in a scolarly way.=20 >=20 > The Secret Doctrine also=20 > claims (the split Punjab part of today's Pakistan ) is where one > still find "the finest men" in compairanche to the "dwarfed"=20 inhabitans of =3D >=20 > Bengal ? No to speak of the rest more southern part of India then if > only : >=20 > The dwarfed and weakened men of Bengal and the Deccan with Punjab,=20 > where the lethal influence of Mussulman, and later on of European,=20 > licentiousness, has hardly touched the orthodox Aryan castes, [and=20 > there] one ,still finds the finest men - so far as stature and > physical strength go on the whole globe. (Secret Doctrine Vol.II,=20 Adyar=20 > 1979, p.411) >=20 > The usage of the word 'Aryan' as in the name of the American and=20 > English Theosophical Societies of the time (e.g. Aryan Theosophical=20 > Society of New York) has according to the Secret Doctrine, most > definite racial implications, , dividing the Indian subcontinent=20 and placin=3D > g > the superior racial heritage in a homeland outside of India.=20 >=20 > And not only are most inhabitants of India seen as inferior race=20 also=20 > the "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub- race > of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of=20 mankind > belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the=20 above > mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans,=20 > Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of=20 other=20 > sub-races of the fourth=97and the seventh sub-race of the third race.=20 All=20 > these,fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H. >=20 > In line with the above not only are most inhabitants of India seen=20 as=20 > inferior race but: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is > the last sub-race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The > majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth=20 Root=20 > race, the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and=20 > branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc.,=20 etc.)=20 > and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth=97and the seventh > sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances=20 of=20 > humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) >=20 > = =20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=3D > b9 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 09:38:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 17:38:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 16212 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 17:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 17:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 17:37:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 17:37:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:37:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <148.30645a1.2b0d198c@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 620 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Paul, > Let us know if you get through "Tales Beelzebub Told His Grandchildren" > in one > piece. Lol. > > John For the umpteenth time I started it and gave up after the first chapter. This from someone who made it through the unabridged SD four times, all the Blavatsky Collected Writings, and the entire 24 volume set of Cayce readings, plus such hefty tomes as Being and Nothingness! BTG is unreadable for me and that's saying a lot. Everything else G. wrote is fine though IMO. Especially Views From the Real World, from spoken lectures. Paul From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 20 10:31:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 18:31:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 6370 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 18:31:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 18:31:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 18:31:27 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A4DB9262DF4 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:31:26 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004b01c290c2$49203d60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <93.266f073b.2b0cd144@cs.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:26:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi John and all of you, Interesting this "rgyud sde"... Maybe the following views, - links and text could help someone: Maybe Dan Clore at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/lurker.htm has more on that issue ? (Kala Chakra tantra) : http://www.wordtrade.com/religion/kalacakra_tantra.htm Kala Chakra - and "exoteric" ceremonials: >:-) http://www.buddhanet.net/kalini.htm A little extra: Here are some interesting articles etc... http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_ms.htm http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm (included Sir Edwin Arnolds : Light of Asia). http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_m.htm (for instance texts on Vipassana meditation). http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_g.htm (Buddhist tales for young and old...) from M. Sufilight with...well God knows what... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy > Eldon, > Reading Mr. Taylor's excerpt you posted coaxed me to Google search on > Kui-te > as a transliterative of Dyzan, one itme was or so it seemed to be that > "Kui-te" > transliterates into the Tibetan as "rgyud-sde". Also in other reference on > the list to > "Senzar"references are found alluding to the "Twilight Language", this > interested me > as when "Twilight" is mentioned I always seem to remember the "Dawn Robe" > of the > Sannyasin's. In inquiry about the "Twilight Language" the search pops up > the tradition > of "Sandhya Bhasha" and reference to the allegorical Play Prabodha > Chandrodaya > by Krishna Misra and the Art of Khajuraho. > > Now when searching for "rgyud-sde" what I found was the "TBRC-The Tibetan > Buddhist Resource Center. > http://www.tbrc.org/search > > On the Home page top right is a search entry box where you can enter > "rgyud sde" > (transliteration of Kui-te (Dyzan)) > the Database responds with 122 file listings having the key word term in > titles. > > Also one Monastery, last on the listing,bottum of list. > > John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 10:40:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 18:40:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 49897 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 18:40:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 18:40:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 18:40:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 18:40:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:40:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Nature's Grosser Forces Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 351 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.184.151 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Everybody probably knows this but I did not see it on a web site anywhere. Rama Prasad's book NATURE'S FUNER FORCES is online at: http://www.rexresearch.com/prana/essays.htm Kessinger has put it back in print in one of their reprint editions, but an online edition can be downloaded and searched electronically, not to mention that it is free. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 20 11:34:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 19:34:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 4632 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 19:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 19:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 19:34:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 19:34:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:34:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Goswami versus Koot Hoomi?? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 19513 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: Goswami versus Koot Hoomi?? ". . . Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are=20 willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and=20 unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more=20 gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that=20 there is not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than=20 God; or as that famous and unfortunate philosopher says in his=20 fourteenth proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque concepi potest=20 substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists . . . ." Koot Hoomi ". . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life=20 is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And=20 no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an=20 agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every=20 respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the=20 microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no=20 creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on=20 it and become agnostics. . . ." Koot Hoomi The above extracts as well as many others were given in my Theos-Talk=20 posting titled: "Theism compared to A-Theism and Pan-Theism in the Mahatma Letters" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8773 The compilation of extracts from various Mahatma letters covered the=20 subjects of "God", "spirit", "matter", "atman", Parabrahm, etc.=20 In that email I said that one might ponder on the words theism,=20 a-theism and pan-theism and what they actually mean as one reads all=20 these extracts. Now Bhakti Ananda Goswami has posted two relevant emails as follows: Part I: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8934 Part II: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8949 I thank Goswami for writing these postings since they contain much=20 food for thought. But after studying both emails I must say that for the most part=20 Goswami's postings contain mere assertions without giving any=20 documentation or reasoning that would help the reader to understand=20 Goswami's thinking or that would help one to determine whether his=20 assertions are true or not.=20=20 Maybe Goswami will later provide such documentation and fuller=20 details. Notice what he writes in this excerpt: "INSTEAD OF CORRECTLY ASSOCIATING THE MAHAYANA DOCTRINES, RITES,=20 ICONOGRAPHY ETC. OF NEPALESE-TIBETAN BUDDHISM WITH EARLIER THEISTIC=20 KRISHNA-CENTRIC VAISHNAVISM, THE T S MASTERS GENERALLY IGNORE THE=20 PROFOUNDLY IMPORTANT VAISHNAVA LINK, AND INSTEAD FOCUS ON=20 THE 'ESOTERIC' DECONSTRUCTION OF OTHER-POWER SALVIFIC BUDDHIST=20 TRANSCENDENTALISM, AND WATERING-DOWN OF THE THEISTIC ASSOCIATIONS=20 WITH 'HINDUISM' TO RE-PRESENT N-TIBETAN BUDDHISM AS MERELY A COVERED=20 FORM OF THERAVADA."=20 "OF COURSE THIS CAMPAIGN OF THEOSOPHY REINFORCED THE EXOTERIC-THEISM- VERSUS-ESOTERIC-ATHEISM DICHOTOMY ALREADY IN N-TIBETAN BUDDHISM.=20 ESOTERIC VOIDISM HAUNTS MAHAYANA BUDDHISM IN THE SAME WAY THAT=20 ESOTERIC ATHEISM HAUNTS 'HINDUISM' IN THE FORM OF EXTREME IMPERSONAL=20 ADVAITA VEDANTA, AND ESOTERIC GNOSTICISM STILL HAUNTS CHRISTIANITY IN=20 THE WEST. THUS WHILE CLAIMING A LOVE OF INDIA AND HER SACRED=20 TRADITIONS, IN FACT, THE THEOSOPHISTS REJECTED HER AUTHENTIC=20 TRADITIONS OF SALVIFIC TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM, THE DOMINANT=20 EXOTERIC BHAKTI TRADITIONS OF KRISHNA-VISHNU, SHIVA AND DEVI, TO=20 PROMOTE A FORM OF EXOTERICALLY HINDU-IZED BUT ESOTERIC, COVERED=20 SYNCRESTIC BUDDHISM. THE T MASTERS WERE NOT MASTERS OF THE CORPUS OF=20 SANSKRIT OR SOUTHERN INDIAN DRAVIDIAN SACRED VISHNU, SHIVA, DEVI AND=20 MARUGAN ETC, LITERATURES. THEY DID NOT TEACH ABOUT THE DIRECT=20 RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PURE LAND BUDDHISM AND VAISHNAVISM, AND THEY=20 SEEMED TO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT THE GREAT DEVOTIONAL, SALVIFIC TRADITIONS=20 OF EITHER NORTHERN OR SOUTHERN INDIA." Pay special attention to this one sentence: "THE THEOSOPHISTS REJECTED HER [India's] AUTHENTIC TRADITIONS OF=20 SALVIFIC TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM, THE DOMINANT EXOTERIC BHAKTI=20 TRADITIONS OF KRISHNA-VISHNU, SHIVA AND DEVI. . . ."=20=20 and compare and contrast it with Goswami's other statement: "ESOTERIC VOIDISM HAUNTS MAHAYANA BUDDHISM IN THE SAME WAY THAT=20 ESOTERIC ATHEISM HAUNTS 'HINDUISM' IN THE FORM OF EXTREME IMPERSONAL=20 ADVAITA VEDANTA, AND ESOTERIC GNOSTICISM STILL HAUNTS CHRISTIANITY IN=20 THE WEST." Apparently Goswami accepts SALVIFIC TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM=20 as "authentic" [true?] but considers ESOTERIC VOIDISM in Mahayana=20 Buddhism and ESOTERIC ATHEISM IN THE FORM OF EXTREME IMPERSONAL=20 ADVAITA VEDANTA in Hinduism as "inauthentic" "adulterated"=20 and "false." As I said above, Goswami provides his readers with none of the=20 reasoning behind his statements. His reasoning, etc. may be valid but=20 then again his reasoning may be faulty and based on false premises,=20 etc. One cannot tell from what he has written. I give BELOW some relevant excerpts from the Encyclop=E6dia Britannica on various concepts and ideas that need to be HIGHLIGHTED=20 and EXPLORED as one tries to understand, compare and contrast the=20 Mahatma Letter view with Goswami's viewpoint.=20=20 One might ALSO read the related articles in the Encyclop=E6dia=20 Britannica on theism, monotheism, pantheism, and mysticism for more=20 background information. I will later try to post some relevant comments from Arthur W.=20 Osborn's book THE COSMIC WOMB. Daniel =20 Excerpts from the Encyclop=E6dia Britannica=20 ----------------------------------------- VAISHNAVISM also called Vishnuism, or Visnuism . . . [is] worship of=20 the god Vishnu and of his incarnations, principally as Rama and as=20 Krishna. It is one of the major forms of modern Hinduism=97with Saivism and Shaktism (Saktism).=20 A major characteristic of Vaishnavism is the strong part played by=20 bhakti, or religious devotion. The ultimate goal of the devotee is to=20 escape from the cycle of birth and death so as to enjoy the presence=20 of Vishnu. This cannot be achieved without the grace of God. . . . The philosophical schools of Vaishnavism differ in their=20 interpretation of the relationship between individual souls and God.=20 The doctrines of the most important schools are:=20 (1) visist advaita ("qualified monism"), associated with the name of Ramanuja (11th century) and continued by the Srivais nava=20 sect, prominent in South India;=20 (2) dvaita ("dualism"), the principal exponent of which was Madhva (13th century), who taught that although the soul is dependent=20 on God it is not an extension of God, that the soul and God are=20 separate entities;=20 (3) dvaitadvaita ("dualistic monism"), taught by Nimbarka. . . (4) suddhadvaita ("pure monism") of Vallabha. . . (5) acintya-bhedabheda ("inconceivable duality and nonduality"), the doctrine of Caitanya. . .=20 --------------------------------------------------- DVAITA . . . (Sanskrit: "Dualism"), [dualism, or belief in a basic difference in kind between God and individual souls] [is] an=20 important school in the orthodox Hindu philosophical system of=20 Vedanta. Its founder was Madhva. . . .=20 Already during his lifetime, Madhva was regarded by his followers as=20 an incarnation of the wind god Vayu, who had been sent to earth by=20 the lord Vishnu to save the good, after the powers of evil had sent=20 the philosopher Sankara, an important proponent of the Advaita=20 ("Nondualist") school.=20 In his expositions, Madhva shows the influence of the Nyaya=20 philosophic school. He maintains that Vishnu is the supreme God, thus=20 identifying the Brahman of the Upanisads with a personal God, as=20 Ramanuja (c. 1050=961137) had done before him. There are in Madhva's system three eternal, ontological orders: that of God, that=20 of soul, and that of inanimate nature. The existence of God is=20 demonstrable by logical proof, though only scripture teaches his=20 nature. He is the epitome of all perfections and possesses a=20 nonmaterial body, which consists of saccidananda (being, spirit, and=20 bliss). God is the efficient cause of the universe, but Madhva denies=20 that he is the material cause, for God cannot have created the world=20 by splitting himself nor in any other way, since that militates=20 against the doctrine that God is unalterable; in addition, it is=20 blasphemous to accept that a perfect God changes himself into an=20 imperfect world. . . . Madhva set out to refute the nondualistic Advaita philosophy of=20 Sankara (d. c. AD 750), who believed the individual self to be a=20 phenomenon and the absolute spirit (Brahman) the only reality. Thus,=20 Madhva rejected the venerable Hindu theory of maya ("illusion"), which taught that only spirituality is eternal and the=20 material world is illusory and deceptive. Madhva maintained that the=20 simple fact that things are transient and everchanging does not mean=20 they are not real. . . . Madhva . . . belonged to the tradition of Vaisnava religious faith=20 and showed a great polemical spirit in refuting Sankara's philosophy=20 and in converting people to his own fold. . . . He glorified=20 difference. Five types of differences are central to Madhva's system:=20 difference between soul and God, between soul and soul, between soul=20 and matter, between God and matter, and that between matter and=20 matter. Brahman is the fullness of qualities, and by his own=20 intrinsic nature, Brahman produces the world. The individual,=20 otherwise free, is dependent only upon God. The Advaita concepts of=20 falsity and indescribability of the world were severely criticized=20 and rejected.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------- ADVAITA (Sanskrit: "Nondualism," or "Monism"), [is] most influential of the schools of Vedanta, an orthodox philosophy of=20 India. While its followers find its main tenets already fully=20 expressed in the Upanisads and systematized by the Vedanta-sutras, it=20 has its historical beginning with the 7th-century thinker=20 Gaudapada. . . Gaudapada builds further on the Mahayana Buddhist=20 philosophy of Sunyava-da ("Emptiness"). He argues that there is no duality;the mind, awake or dreaming, moves through maya ("illusion"); and only nonduality (advaita) is the final truth. This=20 truth is concealed by the ignorance of illusion. There is no=20 becoming, either of a thing by itself or of a thing out of some other=20 thing. There is ultimately no individual self or soul (jiva), only=20 the atman (all-soul), in which individuals may be temporarily=20 delineated just as the space in a jar delineates a part of main=20 space: when the jar is broken, the individual space becomes once more=20 part of the main space.=20 The medieval Indian philosopher Sankara, or Sankaracarya (Master=20 Sankara, c. 700=96750), builds further on Gaudapada's foundation, . . . Sankara in his philosophy does not start from the empirical world=20 with logical analysis but, rather, directly from the absolute=20 (Brahman). If interpreted correctly, he argues, the Upanisads teach=20 the nature of Brahman. In making this argument, he develops a=20 complete epistemology to account for the human error in taking the=20 phenomenal world for real. Fundamental for Sankara is the tenet that=20 the Brahman is real and the world is unreal. Any change, duality, or=20 plurality is an illusion. The self is nothing but Brahman. Insight=20 into this identity results in spiritual release. Brahman is outside=20 time, space, and causality, which are simply forms of empirical=20 experience. No distinction in Brahman or from Brahman is possible.=20 Sankara points to scriptural texts, either stating identity ("Thou art that") or denying difference ("There is no duality here"), as declaring the true meaning of a Brahman without qualities=20 (nirguna ). Other texts that ascribe qualities (saguna) to Brahman=20 refer not to the true nature of Brahman but to its personality as God (Isvara). . . .=20 ---------------------------------------------------- PANTHEISM in Hinduism The gods of the Vedas, the ancient scriptures of India (c.1200 BC),=20 represented for the most part natural forces. Exceptions were the=20 gods Prajapati (Lord of Creatures) and Purusa (Supreme Being or Soul=20 of the Universe), whose competition for influence provided, in its=20 outcome, a possible explanation of how the Indian tradition came to=20 be one of pantheism rather than of Classical Theism. By the 10th book=20 of the Rigveda, Prajapati had become a lordly, monotheistic figure, a=20 creator deity transcending the world; and in the later period of the=20 sacred writings of the Brahmanas (c. 7th century BC), prose=20 commentaries on the Vedas, he was moving into a central position. The=20 rising influence of this Theism was later eclipsed by Purusa, who was=20 also represented in Rigveda X. In a creation myth Purusa was=20 sacrificed by the gods in order to supply (from his body) the pieces=20 from which all the things of the world arise. From this standpoint=20 the ground of all things lies in a Cosmic Self, and all of life=20 participates in that of Purusa. The Vedic hymn to Purusa may be=20 regarded as the starting point of Indian pantheism.=20 In the Upanisads (c. 1000=96500 BC), the most important of the ancient scriptures of India, the later writings contain philosophic=20 speculations concerning the relation between the individual and the=20 divine. In the earlier Upanisads, the absolute, impersonal, eternal=20 properties of the divine had been stressed; in the later Upanisads,=20 on the other hand, and in the Bhagavadgita , the personal, loving,=20 immanentistic properties became dominant. In both cases the divine=20 was held to be identical with the inner self of each man. At times=20 these opposites were implicitly held to be in fact identical=97the view earlier called identity of opposites pantheism. At other times=20 the two sets of qualities were related, one to the unmanifest=20 absolute Brahman, or supreme reality (sustaining the universe), and=20 the other to the manifest Brahman bearing qualities (and containing=20 the universe). Thus Brahman can be regarded as exclusive of the world=20 and inclusive, unchanging and yet the origin of all change. Sometimes=20 the manifest Brahman was regarded as an emanation from the unmanifest=20 Brahman; and then emanationistic pantheism=97the Neoplatonic pantheism of the foregoing typology=97was the result. Sankara, an outstanding nondualistic Vedantist and advocate of a=20 spiritual view of life, began with the Neoplatonic alternative but=20 added a qualification that turned his view into what was later called=20 acosmic pantheism. Distinguishing first between Brahman as being the=20 eternal Absolute and Brahman as a lower principle and declaring the=20 lower Brahman to be a manifestation of the higher, he then made the=20 judgment that all save the higher unqualitied Brahman is the product=20 of ignorance or nescience and exists (apparently only in men's minds)=20 as the phantoms of a dream. Since for Sankara, the world and=20 individuality thus disappear upon enlightenment into the unmanifest=20 Brahman, and in reality only the Absolute without distinctions=20 exists, Sankara has provided an instance of acosmism. --------------------------------------------------- ACOSMISM [is] in philosophy, the view that God is the sole and=20 ultimate reality and that finite objects and events have no=20 independent existence. Acosmism has been equated with pantheism, the=20 belief that everything is God. G.W.F. Hegel coined the word to defend=20 Benedict de Spinoza, who was accused of atheism for rejecting the=20 traditional view of a created world existing outside God. Hegel=20 argued that Spinoza could not be an atheist because pantheists hold=20 that everything is God, whereas atheists exclude God altogether and=20 make a godless world the sole reality. Furthermore, because Spinoza's=20 cosmos is part of God, it is not what it seems to be. He is=20 acosmistic insofar as "noncosmic" seems to deny the cosmos=97a position, however, very alien to Spinoza's thought.=20 Acosmism has also been used to describe the philosophies of Hindu=20 Vedanta, Buddhism, and Arthur Schopenhauer; and Johann Gottlieb=20 Fichte used the term to defend himself against accusations similar to=20 those leveled against Spinoza. ----------------------------------------------------- NIRVANA of the Buddhists Nirvana ( Sanskrit Extinction, or Blowing Out )Pali Nibbana in Indian=20 religious thought, [is] the supreme goal of the meditation=20 disciplines. The concept is most characteristic of Buddhism, in which=20 it signifies the transcendent state of freedom achieved by the=20 extinction of desire and of individual consciousness. . . . Nirvana is conceived somewhat differently within various schools of=20 Buddhism. In the Theravada tradition, it is tranquillity and peace.=20 In the schools of the Mahayana tradition, Nirvana is equated with=20 sunyata (emptiness), with dharma-kaya (the real and unchanging=20 essence of the Buddha), and with dharma-dhatu (ultimate=20 reality) . . . .=20 Some 600 years after Buddha, a new and more speculative school of=20 Buddhism arose to challenge the 18 or 20 schools of Buddhism then in=20 existence. One of the early representatives of this new school, which=20 came to be known as Mahayana (Sanskrit "Greater Vehicle")Buddhism,=20 was Asvaghosa. Like Sankara (whom he antedated by 700 years),=20 Asvaghosa not only distinguished between the pure Absolute (the Soul=20 as "Suchness"; i.e., in its essence) and the all-producing, all- conserving Mind, which is the manifestation of the Absolute (the=20 Soul as "Birth and Death"; i.e., as happenings), but he also held that the judgment concerning the manifest world of beings is a=20 judgment of nonenlightenment; it is, he said, like the waves stirred=20 by the wind=97 when the quiet of enlightenment comes the waves cease, and an illusion confronts a man as he begins to understand the=20 world.=20 Whereas Asvaghosa treated the world as illusory and essentially void,=20 Nagarjuna, the great propagator of Mahayana Buddhism who studied=20 under one of Asvaghosa's disciples, transferred Sunya ("the Void") into the place of the Absolute. If Suchness, or ultimate=20 reality, and the Void are identical, then the ultimate must lie=20 beyond any possible description. Nagarjuna approached the matter=20 through dialectical negation: according to the school that he=20 founded, the Ultimate Void is the Middle Path of an eightfold=20 negation; all individual characteristics are negated and sublated,=20 and the individual approaches the Void through a combination of=20 dialectical negation and direct intuition. Beginning with the Middle=20 Doctrine School, the doctrine of the Void spread to all schools of=20 Mahayana Buddhism as well as to the Satyasiddhi (Sanskrit: "perfect attainment of truth") group in Hinayana Buddhism. Since the=20 Void is also called the highest synthesis of all oppositions, the=20 doctrine of the Void may be viewed as an instance of identity of=20 opposites pantheism.=20 In the T'ien-t'ai school of Chinese Buddhism founded by Chih-i, as in=20 earlier forms of Mahayana Buddhism, the elements of ordinary=20 existence are regarded as having their basis in illusion and=20 imagination. What really exists is the one Pure Mind, called True=20 Thusness, which exists changelessly and without differentiation.=20 Enlightenment consists of realizing one's unity with the Pure Mind.=20 Thus, an additional Buddhist school, T'ien-t'ai, can be identified=20 with acosmic pantheism. Indeed, although a mingling of types is discernible in the Hindu and=20 Buddhist strands of Oriental culture, acosmic pantheism would seem to=20 be the alternative most deeply rooted and widespread in these=20 traditions. ---------------------------------------------- From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 20 11:54:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 19:54:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 39091 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 19:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 19:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 19:54:18 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.103.1fb8eb9f (4238) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <103.1fb8eb9f.2b0d425d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:05 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Thanks for the complement? ;-) In a message dated 11/16/02 3:52:07 PM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> >Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to >Leon >> >Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > >Sounds good to me. A brick wall does not interrupt, does not argue >with me, does not dismiss what I have to say, and gives an impression >of solidity and stability. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Nov 20 11:58:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 19:58:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 20691 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.131] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8DCC5D00CA; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:56:12 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021120135814.0357e620@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:00:13 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World All CAPS In-Reply-To: <005c01c290af$461d5840$08414b42@socal.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The developers of Windows being well aware of the needs of those with handicaps, have provided option to display characters in large letters, and this usually solves the problem for those with handicaps and avoid the need for all CAPS. mkr At 07:50 AM 11/20/02 -0800, Wes Amerman wrote: >But where do you get the idea that "all caps" are more readable, or that >"normal" people prefer them?? It's considered "shouting" in all discussion >groups I have ever participated in -- philosophical, cultural, financial and >otherwise. I have even seen real-time chat room moderators ask paying >subscribers to leave expensive lists where they were abusing a posted "no >all caps" rule. Personally, I prefer not to have to read such text, whether >from Mr. Goswami, you or Dallas. Thanks, Eldon, for pointing out an >alternative ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 11:58:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 19:58:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 935 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 19:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 19:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 19:58:19 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EazK-0000WI-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:58:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDBE86E.2FF2C8FF@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. References: <103.1fb8eb9f.2b0d425d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Was that a pun or a fortunate typo? leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks for the complement? ;-) > > In a message dated 11/16/02 3:52:07 PM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: > > >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >> >Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to > >Leon > >> >Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." > > > >Sounds good to me. A brick wall does not interrupt, does not argue > >with me, does not dismiss what I have to say, and gives an impression > >of solidity and stability. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Nov 20 12:05:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 20:04:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 52105 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 20:04:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 20:04:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 20:04:58 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.131] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA5F32C004A; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:02:39 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021120140557.035732e0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:06:28 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Nature's Grosser Forces In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info. The book is supposed to be a classic. mkr At 06:40 PM 11/20/02 +0000, you wrote: >Everybody probably knows this but I did not see it on a web site >anywhere. Rama Prasad's book NATURE'S FUNER FORCES is online at: > >http://www.rexresearch.com/prana/essays.htm > >Kessinger has put it back in print in one of their reprint editions, >but an online edition can be downloaded and searched electronically, >not to mention that it is free. > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 12:31:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 20:31:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 67101 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 20:31:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 20:31:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 20:31:18 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EbVF-0007V0-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDBF028.B3A953B2@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:27:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World All CAPS References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021120135814.0357e620@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Actually, that's technology that Microsoft licensed from Apple, which was in turn licensed from Xerox. ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > The developers of Windows being well aware of the needs of those with > handicaps, have provided option to display characters in large letters, and > this usually solves the problem for those with handicaps and avoid the need > for all CAPS. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 20 13:00:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 23110 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 21:00:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:00:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Meister Eckhart on "God" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1078 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Meister Eckhart on "God" ----------------------------------------- Here are some of my favorite quotes from Meister Eckhart (c.1260=96 c.1328, German mystic): "God is exempt from all things and he is all things."=20 "He who thinks that he sees God, if he see aught sees naught of God."=20 "I do not find God outside myself nor conceive him excepting as my=20 own and in me." "If I were not, God would not be God." "All creatures are pure nothingness. I do not say they are small or=20 petty: they are pure nothingness."=20 "The being [of things] is God."=20 "The being and the nature of God are mine. . . . the spark in the=20 soul is beyond time and space; the soul's light is uncreated and=20 cannot be created, it takes possession of God with no mediation; the=20 core of the soul and the core of God are one." "Why I pray God to rid me of God is because conditionless being is=20 above God and above distinction." "God works, the Godhead does no work." ------------------------------------------------- [Short biographical sketch at: http://www.bartleby.com/65/ec/Eckhart.html ] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 20 13:36:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 21:36:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 82150 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 21:36:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 21:36:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 21:36:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 21:36:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:36:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Upanishads on "God" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 842 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell >From Chandogya Upanishad: In the beginning there was Existence alone - One only, without a second. He, the One thought to himself: Let me be many, let me grow forth. Thus out of himself he projected the universe; and having projected out of himself the universe, he entered into every being. All that is has its self in him alone. Of all things he is the subtle essence. He is the truth. He is the Self. And that...THAT ART THOU. >From Isa Upanisad: He who sees all beings in his self and his self in all beings, he never suffers; because when he sees all creatures within his true self, then jealousy, grief and hatred vanish. He alone can love. That All-pervading One is self-effulgent, birthless, deathless, pure, untainted by sin and sorrow. Knowing this, he becomes free from the bondage of matter and transcends death. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 20 13:52:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 21:52:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 25187 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 21:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 21:52:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 21:52:57 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C0F45EE814 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:52:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000a01c290de$6f16cd60$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Meister Eckhart on "God" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:47:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Meister Ecke....: 1. Man never desires anything so earnestly as God desires to bring a man to Himself, that he may know Him. God is always ready, but we are very unready; God is near to us, but we are far from Him; God is within, but we are without; God is at home, but we are strangers. The prophet said: God guides the redeemed through a narrow way into the broad road, so that they come into the wide and broad place; that is to say, into true freedom of the spirit, when one has become a spirit with God. 2. God is nameless, for no man can either say or understand aught about Him. If I say, God is good, it is not true; nay more; I am good, God is not good. I may even say, I am better than God; for whatever is good, may become better, and whatever may become better, may become best. Now God is not good, for He cannot become better. And if He cannot become better, He cannot become best, for these three things, good, better, and best, are far from God, since He is above all. If I also say, God is wise, it is not true; I am wiser than He. If I also say, God is a Being, it is not true; He is transcendent Being and superessential Nothingness. Concerning this St Augustine says: the best thing that man can say about God is to be able to be silent about Him, from the wisdom of his inner judgement. Therefore be silent and prate not about God, for whenever thou dost prate about God, thou liest, and committest sin. If thou wilt be without sin, prate not about God. Thou canst understand nought about God, for He is above all understanding. 3. All that a man bears for God's sake, God makes light and sweet for him. *** If all was right with you, your sufferings would no longer be suffering, but love and comfort. *** If God could have given to men anything more noble than suffering, He would have redeemed mankind with it: otherwise, you must say that my Father was my enemy, if he knew of anything nobler than suffering. 4. Now I might ask, how stands it with the soul that is lost in God? Does the soul find herself or not? To this will I answer as it appears to me, that the soul finds herself in the point, where every rational being understands itself with itself. Although it sinks and sinks in the eternity of the Divine Essence, yet it can never reach the ground. Therefore God has left a little point wherein the soul turns back upon itself and finds itself, and knows itself to be a creature *** God alone must work in thee without hindrance, that He may bring to perfection His likeness in thee. So thou mayest understand with Him, and love with Him. This is the essence of perfection. 5. "Whoever possesses God in their being, has him in a divine manner, and he shines out to them in all things; for them all things taste of God and in all things it is God's image that they see." "People should not worry as much about what they do but rather about what they are. If they and their ways are good, then their deeds are radiant. If you are righteous, then what you do will also be righteous. We should not think that holiness is based on what we do but rather on what we are, for it is not our works which sanctify us but we who sanctify our works." "It is a fair trade and an equal exchange: to the extent that you depart from things, thus far, no more and no less, God enters into you with all that is his, as far as you have stripped yourself of yourself in all things. It is here that you should begin, whatever the cost, for it is here that you will find true peace, and nowhere else." Talks of Instruction In 1985 the Pope, John Paul II, said: "Did not Eckhart teach his disciples: 'All that God asks you most pressingly is to go out of yourself - and let God be God in you'? One could think that, in separating himself from creatures, the mystic leaves his brothers, humanity, behind. The same Eckhart affirms that, on the contrary, the mystic is marvelously present to them on the only level where he can truly reach them, that is in God." from M- Sufilight with Christ and light... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:00 PM Subject: Theos-World Meister Eckhart on "God" Meister Eckhart on "God" ----------------------------------------- Here are some of my favorite quotes from Meister Eckhart (c.1260- c.1328, German mystic): "God is exempt from all things and he is all things." "He who thinks that he sees God, if he see aught sees naught of God." "I do not find God outside myself nor conceive him excepting as my own and in me." "If I were not, God would not be God." "All creatures are pure nothingness. I do not say they are small or petty: they are pure nothingness." "The being [of things] is God." "The being and the nature of God are mine. . . . the spark in the soul is beyond time and space; the soul's light is uncreated and cannot be created, it takes possession of God with no mediation; the core of the soul and the core of God are one." "Why I pray God to rid me of God is because conditionless being is above God and above distinction." "God works, the Godhead does no work." ------------------------------------------------- [Short biographical sketch at: http://www.bartleby.com/65/ec/Eckhart.html ] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Nov 20 14:16:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 22:16:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 80120 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 22:16:04 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:15:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Hymn of Creation: "He verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not." Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 6876 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below I give 4 different versions of the remarkable "Hymn of=20 Creation" from the Rig Veda.=20=20 I remember when I was in my teens and having what later I would learn=20 were mystical experiences, I ran across the "Hymn of Creation." It=20 awakened in me other inner experiences many of which I still do not=20 understand.=20=20 Later in 1968 I discovered Theosophy and the writings of Madame=20 Blavatky. I was literally amazed when I first read the Stanzas of=20 Dzyan and HPB's commentaries on the Stanzas. These stanzas also=20 awakened something in me very reminiscent of my experiences with the=20 Hymn of Creation. Several years later in the 70s, in the library where I was working, I=20 found a book written by Georg Feuerstein and Jeanine Miller.=20=20 Information on the latest reprint of this book can be found at: http://www.parkstpress.com/titles/essyog.htm The Essence of Yoga: Essays on the Development of Yogic Philosophy=20 from the Vedas to Modern Times I was greatly impressed by the whole book especially the following=20 chapters: "Some Notes on Rgvedic Interpretation" (J. Miller and G. Feuerstein)=20 "The Hymn of Creation. A Philosophical Interpretation" (J. Miller)=20 "Forerunners of Yoga: The Kesin Hymn" (J. Miller)=20 "The Heart of Rgvedic Religion: Agni, Flame Divine" (J. Miller) The chapter on "The Hymn of Creation" by Jeanine Miller is highly=20 recommended, especially for students of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Anyway, below are the 4 versions. Daniel ----------------------------------------------------- Hymn of Creation Version 1 Neither non-being nor being was as yet, Neither was airy space nor=20 heavens beyond; What was enveloped? And where? Sheltered by whom? And=20 was there water? Bottomless, unfathomed?=20 Neither was there death nor immortality, Nor was there any sign then=20 of night or day; Totally windless, by itself, the One breathed;=20 Beyond that, indeed, nothing whatever was.=20 In the Principle darkness concealed darkness; Undifferentiated surge=20 was this whole world. The pregnant point covered by the form matrix,=20 >From conscious fervor, mightily, brought forth the One.=20 In the Principle, thereupon, rose desire, Which of consciousness was=20 the primeval seed. Then the wise, searching within their hearts,=20 perceived That in non-being lay the bond of being.=20 Stretched crosswise was their line, a ray of glory. Was there a=20 below? And was there an above? There were sowers of seeds and forces=20 of might: Potency from beneath and from on high the Will.=20 Who really knows, who could here proclaim Whence this creation flows,=20 where is its origin? With this great surge the Gods made their=20 appearance. Who therefore knows from where it did arise?=20 This flow of creation, from where it did arise, Whether it was=20 ordered or was not, He, the Observer, in the highest heaven, He alone=20 knows, unless=85He knows it not. ----------------------------------------------------- Hymn of Creation Version 2 Non-being then existed not nor being: There was no air, nor sky that is beyond it. What was concealed? Wherein? In whose protection? And was there deep unfathomable water? Death then existed not nor life immortal; Of neither night nor day was any token. By its inherent force the One breathed windless: No other thing than that beyond existed. Darkness there was at first by darkness hidden; Without distinctive marks, this all was water. That which, becoming, by the void was covered, That One by force of heat came into being.=20 Desire entered the One in the beginning: It was the earliest seed, of thought the product. The sages searching in their hearts with wisdom, Found out the bond of being in non-being. Their ray extended light across the darkness: But was the One above or was it under? Creative force was there, and fertile power: Below was energy, above was impulse. Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born, and whence came this creation? The gods were born after this world's creation: Then who can know from whence it has arisen? None knoweth whence creation has arisen; And whether he has or has not produced it: He who surveys it in the highest heaven, He only knows, or haply he may know not ----------------------------------------------------- Hymn of Creation Version 3 At first was neither Being nor Nonbeing. There was not air nor yet sky beyond. What was wrapping? Where? In whose protection? Was Water there, unfathomable deep? There was no death then, nor yet deathlessness; of night or day there was not any sign. The One breathed without breath by its own impulse. Other than that was nothing at all. Darkness was there, all wrapped around by darkness, and all was Water indiscriminate, Then that which was hidden by Void, that One, emerging, stirring, through power of Ardor, came to be. In the beginning desire arose, which was primal germ cell of mind. The Seers, searching in their hearts with wisdom, discovered the connection of Being in Nonbeing.=20 A crosswise line cut Being from Nonbeing. What was described above it, what below? Bearers of seed there were and mighty forces, thrust from below and forward move above. Who really knows? Who can presume to tell it? Whence was it born? Whence issued this creation? Even the Gods came after its emergence. Then who can tell from whence it came to be? That out of which creation has arisen, whether it held it firm or it did not, He who surveys it in the highest heaven, He surely knows - or maybe He does not!=20 ----------------------------------------------------- Hymn of Creation Version 4 Then there was not non-existent nor existent:=20 There was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter?=20 Was water there, unfathomed depth of water? Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: No sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That one thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature=20 Apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness,=20 This All was undiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and formless;=20 By the great power of warmth was born that unit. Thereafter rose desire in the beginning,=20 Desire the primal seed and germ of spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought=20 Discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended:=20 What was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces,=20 Free action here and energy of yonder. Who verily knows and who can here declare it, Whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The gods are later than this world's production.=20 Who knows, then, whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation,=20 Whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven,=20 He verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 15:20:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 20 Nov 2002 23:20:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 50897 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2002 23:20:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Nov 2002 23:20:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Nov 2002 23:20:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2002 23:20:34 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:20:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: ARE THE MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 13583 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach sO CAN dANIEL cALDWELL BRIEFLIE POST ON INDIANCIVILISATIONS AND EXPLAIN IN HIS OWN WORDS WHY HE THINKS THE MAHATMA LETTERS ARE NOT COCTED AND BASED ON THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTERS THESELVE, PROVIDE EVIDENCE UNDERNEATH HIS ASSESMENT ? I AM CURRENTLY PLACING EVERYTHING THAT IS POSTET THERE TODAY ON MY WEBSITE. To add your own insights go to current conversation that will be further reported on every 5 hours see the link at the end. 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters are the primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance to Theosophists. 2. The Theosophical Masters, authors of the "Mahatma Letters," especially Koot Hoomi, Master Morya and Serapis, are the highest authorities who have revealed themselves to humanity. 3. The Master of the Masters Koot Hoomi and Morya, is Serapis. 4. H.P. Blavatsky is the rather hidden incarnation of Serapis. 5. The brotherhood of Theosophical Masters has reincarnated throughout time, guiding the world (and evolution of the races). Thus all previous revelations, religions and advances in various fields, must be interpreted in the context of their supposed relationship to the T S Masters. 6. The priests of dogmatic or doctrinal organized religions have corrupted their scriptures, so it is better to read the more authentic core of teachings contained in the "Stanzas of Dyzan" and the synthesized teachings of the Mahatmas and HPB. There is no need to learn languages and study the source works themselves, as HPB has provided a clear and accurate synthesis of everything in these that is significant to study. 7. Sannyasis and Sadhus etc. are "on the path of error," and Theosophy has nothing to do with the Shastra of Brahminism. 8. Koot Hoomi / Theosophy absolutely denies the existence of God or Gods. 9. There is an amalgamation of Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism with Advaita Vedantism and Vaishnava sources in the teachings of Theosophical "Buddhism." 10. Madame Blavatsky was a very intellectually gifted and educated person, who was the central figure in the whole development of Theosophy. Whether or not she wrote the Mahatma Letters with the help of corporeal or incorporeal beings, may or may not be of importance in certain kinds of analysis of the letters. The actual content of the letters can be examined in relationship to real-world ancient textual and living traditions, to see if the Mahatmas' presentations are accurate with regard to those thought-systems. Let us now consider some of the curious facts related to the specific mixture of Eastern and Western teachings in the Mahatma Letters. In one letter KH writes to Sinnett: ..."Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the `greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- ..."... Most of the debates that I have seen regarding the T.S. Masters have focused on the Masters' identity, the "precipitation" of their letters, H.P. Blavatsky's or someone else's medium-ship or "channeling" of their thoughts / writings, textual analysis of their letters for contemporary or near-contemporary plagiarized material, stylistic elements, language or other clues to their identity. I do not intend to address any of these things, which have all been chewed before. Rather than chewing-the- chewed, like a cow not done with its cud, I want to provide a reading of the Letters from the perspective of a person familiar with some of the source-works and traditions that the Mahatmas used and / or claimed to be representing. Ideas and the words, written and spoken, and images or symbols and actions that convey them, have history. Innovations occur and get diffused. Ideas spark social movements that wax and wane. Thought-forms, like other "things" have certain time-and-space limitations. Communication is sent and received in specific forms and languages. Each word or symbol has a content actually intended by its sender, and any number of meanings imposed on it by receivers. Scientifically-minded historians (not historical-fiction writers) want to know what was actually meant by the creators or sender(s) of a document from the past. They want to understand the successive meanings giving to an original or earlier document by later commentators. They want to peel-back the layers of time, and get at the original core of an idea. Such scientifically-minded persons do not want to impose meanings on history, they want to discover the real meanings already there in history. They don't want to "massage the data" to fit into preconceived notions of history, or to support an agenda of some kind. The real lover of truth wants to understand what really happened, who the real players were, and what their motives, means and actions were etc. Such investigators use scientific methodologies and means of inquiry designed to safe-guard the objectivity and integrity of their efforts. They try to avoid errors by rigorously identifying their sources, to be sure of authenticity. In the case of my own studies, from the very beginning I learned of the value of interdisciplinary research from my father (a research electrobiophysicist), who taught me that errors could be avoided and facts established beyond doubt by approaching a subject or question from a multiplicity of disciplines instead of only one. Thus my studies utilized every discipline that I could bring to bear on a particular question. This has given me a well-rounded grasp of the main subjects of my historical inquiries. In the above quotes, the Master Koot Hoomi (K H) writes about the Tibetans and Penjabi Singhs, Mr. Sinnet says that K H was a native of the Punjab, H.P. Blavatsky says that Koot Hoomi is a Pujabi, and both Blavatsky and others identify K H with Kashmir. I begin my commentary on the Mahatma Letters with these references, because I will be focusing quite a bit on the Vaishnava, Buddhist and related content of the Letters. Tibetan Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Devi worship, Sufism, Sikhism and all the branches of these traditions have their own real world histories. For example, there is a traditional date for the entrance of Padmasambhava into Tibet, and thus an eighth century historical beginning to Tibetan Buddhism. The Advaita Vedantism of Sri Adi Shankaracharya has a history too, as does the successive waves of Ishmali and Sufi Mohammedanism into the Punjab and Kashmir. In the Mahatma Letters there is a curious mix of Atheistic and Theistic (Vaishnava) Advaita Vedanta, Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism, Sikh and Sufi reinterpretations of Vaishnava, Shaivite and Devi teachings, and other amalgamations which can be found ESPECIALLY in the region of Kashmir. In Kashmir today for instance, there may be found Vaishnava- influenced Muslim Sufi "brahmins" who do not eat flesh, Tantric- influenced Sahajiya Vaishnavas, various Sufi-Vaishnava or Sufi- Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid groups, and Sikhism, which as another Sufi- Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid religion is of course related to the Vaishnava and Shaivite Kshatriyas (warrior class) of the Punjab. Thus the name "Singh" is important in this connection. Pure Land Buddhism, as originally in Nepal and Tibet, has its historical origins in Vaishnavism, and so is connected to the strange Kashmiri mix in the thread of Vaishnava doctrines and practices running through the whole region. It is from this regional melting-pot of Indic and Western (Sufi and Gnostic) traditions that the Masters' K H and Morya seem to have acquired some of their unorthodox understanding of the Sanskrit Shastras (scriptures) and to have created their hodge-podge of an "Eastern' thought system. Whoever they were, they were masters of something, but what was that something? To assess their competence as masters of eastern traditions, one would need themself to be qualified in such traditions. As an instructing master in the Vedic-based Tradition of Vaishnavism, I am qualified to assess the accuracy of the what the masters have presented from my own tradition. Since the oldest literary traditions in the region are clearly those of the Sanskrit Vaishnava-related texts, and the Masters refer to doctrines from these texts, then it is reasonable to assess the Mahatmas' presentation of ideas from these texts to determine their accuracy. The example of the Rig Veda and Proto-Mahayana Buddhism For example, the Rig Veda is by all estimations very much older than the Advaita Vedantan writings of Adi Sankaracharya, the beginning of Tibetan Buddhism (8th A D), the Era of Asoka or even the life of Sakyamuni Buddha Himself. The Purusha Sukta Hymn is considered by many scholars to be among the oldest surviving writings of humanity. The Purusha Sukta is found in a collection of Vedic Sanskrit Hymns, the Rig Veda. These hymns glorify God under a variety of Names and Forms, as these forms have appeared from the Cosmic Body of the universal self-sacrificed Purusha, Who is described in the Purusha Sukta. In later corruptions of this monotheistic tradition, the forms of Purusha, are demoted to a mere multiplicity of "gods." Thus polytheism , pantheism etc. eventually obscured the originality and supremacy of Purusha as the transcendent supreme Deity of the Rig Veda. Purusha assumed a cosmic form for self-sacrifice to create, sustain (as sacramental food / Prasadam) and redeem every world / cosmic manifestation. In the Purusha Sukta, and related Vedic texts, it is clearly understood that Purusha is VISHNU. The Purusha Sukta is still chanted today on Vaishnava altars as the Eucharistic PRASADAM offerings are being made. Another one of Vishnu's Vedic names is Asura (from the root meaning "being," "to be, exist"). In the "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism," R. C. Zaehner identifies the cosmic Purusha with the Zoroastrian supreme Deity Ahura Mazda (Ahura=Asura). The Jagganatha or Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha is sometimes called his Vishva Rupa or Virata Rupa. This is one of the theophanies of SRI KRISHNA that was revealed to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita, The cosmic form of God in Jewish mysticism is definitely related to the revelation of Sri Krishna in the Gita. The universal Purusha is of course identified with the Purusha AVATARA FORMS OF VISHNU. In the Vedas, Vishnu is called by many names, including Asura and Purusha. It is Vishnu Who is worshiped in multi- form in the Vedic hymns. This is the tradition of the oldest stratum of Vedic so-called "Hinduism," and all the principle Vedic Nama-Rupa name- forms of Vishnu are found many centuries later in Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan and related Nepalese Buddhism. There the very ancient Vedic names and forms of Vishnu-Purusha AS LOKSHEVARA, are connected to Vaishnava doctrines, rites, practices, sacramental social order etc.. So the foundation of Tibetan Buddhism is in the much earlier worship of Vishnu-Purusha, without any doubt. When the entire socio- religious cultural milieu in which Sakyamuni's Buddhism first developed was Vedic-Vaishnava, how is it reasonable to assume that the pervasive elements of Vaishnavism in Mahayana Buddhism are later, intrusions or corruptions? In fact, Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, uses the very Sanskrit Names of Krishna-Vishnu for the ADI BUDDHA, who is also called ADI PURUSHA, BHAGAVAN, PURUSOTAMMA etc. To claim that a younger tradition (Buddhism) owes nothing to its origins is ridiculous. The extremely ancient Purusha Sukta related Forms of Lokesvara are those of Vishnu. The same names and forms are there in both the Buddhist and Vaishnava traditions, and this is not peculiar to the Nepalese-Tibetan form of Buddhism either. Everywhere in Pure Land Mahayana Buddhism it is the same. The names, forms, doctrines, rites etc. of the salvific other-power tradition of Buddhism are closely related to those of Krishna-centric Vaishnavism. When we look at the Sanskrit sources for the Mahatmas' "Hindu" and "Buddhist" ideas, again the oldest of these are the Vaishnava and Vaishnava-related scriptures. For those accustomed to thinking of Sanskrit literatures in terms of some generic "Hinduism," no such thing existed in the ancient world. Scriptures were the testimony of specific traditions, such as the sattvic Vaishnava or Shaivite or tantric Devi worshiping traditions. In the "CULT OF TARA" by S. Beyer, the original Sanskrit for the Tibetan Buddhist rituals of Mother Tara are given. Any Vaishnava pujari priest would immediately recognize these Sanskrit mantrams, hymns and rites! So, if we are going to seriously consider the claims of the Mahatmas to mastery in Tibetan Buddhism, I want to see evidence in their Letters that they knew of, and understood the close relationship between Tibetan Buddhism, and Vaishnavism. To post your insights on why The Mahatma Letters might in fact be a 19th century concoction instead of the teachings from an ancient brotherhood from Atlantis that has looked over the inception of humanity from its beginning, post on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28665 An respond to the thread "why are the Mahatma letters concocted or not." --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 16:04:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 00:04:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 99062 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 00:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 00:04:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Eepi-0006rP-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:04:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDC221E.B5C61025@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:00:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World ARE THE MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. brianmuehlbach wrote: > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters are the > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance > to Theosophists. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 16:08:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 00:08:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 89966 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 00:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 00:08:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 00:08:36 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:08:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Lets Check The Mahatma Letters: Step 1 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8416 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach How to check claims in The Mahatma Letters ? Among a list of others, one way is that Geneticists can track emigrations because of the train of errors that slowly accumulates in certain regions of the DNA. After a population splits, the people who go east will clock up a different set of errors from those who venture west. >From the population splits implied by these error patterns, geneticists can reconstruct family trees of different lineages in the grand genealogy of humankind, and even assign rough dates to the branch points. At this year's conference, which ended last week, Dr. Peter Underhill of Stanford showed how scholars could begin to link the data in the genome's archive with historical events. Anatolia, the ancient name for Turkey, has long been a corridor for armies and peoples traveling between Europe and Asia. Dr. Underhill, who has reconstructed the worldwide tree of the Y chromosome, has been analyzing the various Y chromosome lineages present in today's Turkish population. He has found one lineage whose ancestors may have carried the agricultural revolution from Anatolia to Europe during the Neolithic era, 8,000 to 3,000 years ago. Anatolians with another lineage may be descendants of the Bronze Age Hattic culture, he said. Curiously the Seljuk Turks, who wrested Anatolia from the Byzantine Empire in the 11th century, have left only a faint genetic signal of their presence, Dr. Underhill said. Though the conquerors imposed their language and culture over a wide region, an army of a mere 40,000 made little genetic difference to a population that had already reached 12 million by Roman times. Just as the Y chromosome tracks the movement of men, an element called mitochondrial DNA, inherited only through the egg, traces the journeys of women. Dr. Douglas Wallace of the University of California at Irvine long ago defined and named the principal mitochondrial lineages. Only three of the 20 or so lineages, designated A, C and D, are found in northern Siberia. Given that northern Asia is essentially a big plain with no obstacle but freezing cold, Dr. Wallace wondered why none of the other lineages had made it to the far northeast. He now believes, he said at the meeting, that the three mitochondrial lineages carry an altered form of an energy metabolism gene that may improve the body's resistance to cold. This could explain why A, C and D are the principal lineages found in Native Americans: their ancestors, being better adapted to life in northern Siberia, would have discovered the Beringian land bridge to Alaska before it was submerged at the end of the last ice age. Most of the available evidence suggests there was only one emigration of modern humans from Africa, a small group that left some 40,000 to 50,000 years ago and populated first Asia and then Europe. But some geneticists think there may have been an earlier exodus of people who traveled by boat along the southern Asian coasts, eventually reaching Australia. The people of Australia and Papua New Guinea are dark skinned and somewhat different from most other Asians and Europeans. To test the idea of a southern route, Dr. James F. Wilson of University College London compared the DNA of the Dravidian-speaking, dark skinned aboriginal tribes of southern India with that of New Guinea highlanders to see if the two might be part of the same exodus. The first gene he looked at suggested they were related, but further study showed otherwise. "The distinctiveness of New Guineans could be from long-term drift, not a different route out of Africa," he said. Drift is the geneticist's term for the random change that takes place between generations as some genetic variants become more common and others get rarer or disappear altogether. Dr. David Reich of the Whitehead Institute in Cambridge, Mass., described an ingenious method to recognize recently selected genes, based on the length of the unchanged DNA that the beneficial mutation drags along with it between generations. A different method was described by Dr. Mark Stoneking of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. He figured that genes that differ widely among ethnic groups have probably been under selective pressure because of different diets, parasites, diseases or climates confronted by their owners. With this approach Dr. Stoneking has found a gene that has three major variants: one dominates in Europeans, one in Africans and one in Asians. The gene, known as F13B, codes for part of Factor XIII in the cascade of blood-clotting proteins. It is not known why it should have different common forms in the three major population groups. A broader approach, made possible by a large-scale DNA sequencing program, was discussed by Dr. Benjamin Salisbury of Genaissance Pharmaceuticals in New Haven. He too looked for genes whose variant forms have very different frequencies among races by decoding some 4,000 genes in 82 people. Dr. Salisbury said he had found many such genes, including one that is absent from Africans and Europeans but found in 88 percent of Asians. He declined for commercial reasons to identify the gene. Genes under intense selective pressure are of great interest because those selected for disease resistance may pinpoint new targets for drug development. Other selected genes may define what it means to be human. Linguists and geneticists last year discovered a human gene called FOXP2 which differs in two essential places from the equivalent gene in chimpanzees. The gene seems to underlie the articulation of rapidly spoken language. It must be of great importance because a single version is found in all humans. It came to light because several members of a large London family with a damaged version of the gene have severe difficulties with spoken language. The discovery of this language gene, which seems to have arisen sometime within the last 100,000 years, lends support to a bold idea advanced by Dr. Richard Klein, an archaeologist at Stanford. He has noted the sudden appearance in the archaeological record about 50,000 years ago of many sophisticated activities, like art, long distance trade and intricate implements. Anatomically modern humans first emerged some 130,000 years ago, and those of 50,000 years ago appear no different. So Dr. Klein believes some neural and cognitive change, most probably the development of language, occurred in Africa around this time, before the exodus to the rest of the world. Dr. Klein describes himself as being in "a minority of one" among experts on the period but notes that archaeologists tend to favor culture, not genes, to explain their findings. At last week's meeting his opponents argued that many modern behaviors appeared well before 50,000 years ago. "One does not need to resort to a genetic black box; it's more likely that we are seeing a response to climate change," said Dr. Alison Brooks of George Washington University. Dr. Sally McBrearty of the University of Connecticut described a 70,000-year-old crosshatched object recently found in the Blombos cave on the coast of South Africa as "the smoking gun" evidence that the people of that time were capable of symbolic representation. Dr. Klein, who could not make a scheduled appearance at the conference, said in a telephone interview that the new finds had not changed his views. Similar artifacts, like mineral pigments, are known from pre-50,000-year sites in Europe, he said. But the makers of the artifacts were Neanderthals, who are not generally thought of as modern. Before 50,000 years ago the evidence for modern behavior is rare and the dates are disputable, Dr. Klein said. After 50,000 years ago, neither is the case. The FOXP2 gene cannot be dated precisely because it is universal. But other language genes yet to be found might be more helpful in deciding when language was acquired. "This is the only test of my theory, in the genome," Dr. Klein said. So, next to you the 170 members on this list, what can one firther say as a confirmation or non-confirmation Mahatma Letter content versus results of today's genetic research ? http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 From netemara888@yahoo.com Wed Nov 20 16:40:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 00:40:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 2794 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:40:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 00:40:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 00:40:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 00:40:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:40:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5486 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > Dear Eldon and Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > Yours is the first exchange on this list in a long time that has > moved me to want to resubscribe. I see issues that are much broader > than the synthetic, composite nature of Blavatskian Theosophy, indeed > that are universal in religious history, in your discussion. > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > wrote: > IF > > WE ARE TRUTH SEEKERS, CAN WE NOT FACE THE TRUTH ABOUT HPB AND HER > > LIMITS, AND THE LIMITS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS ETC ? THE REAL VALUE > > OF THE EARLY THEOSOPHISTS WORK IS ONLY OBSCURED BY HAGIOGRAPHIC > > EFFORTS AND INSISTANCE ON MYSTIFYING THEIR HUMANITY. IT IS ENOUGH > TO BE A GREATLY GIFTED OR GREATLY MOTIVATED HUMAN BEING. > > Many Christians are outraged by the work of the Jesus Seminar and > most others ignore it. They cannot face the truth that Jesus was a > greatly gifted or greatly motivated human being, or that his > teachings were specific to a time and place and must be understood in > historical context. He has to be a universal cosmic truthgiver, to > satisfy a deep need for absolute certainty in his disciples. Same > with HPB, Gurdjieff, Cayce, etc. > snip > > NOT THE ENEMY) > > What I read between the lines-- and perhaps am misreading-- is an > implicit juxtaposition between 1) ersatz, composite teachings and 2) > authentic, pure teachings, with a further implication of "mine's > better than yours." The problem with that, as I see it, is that > *every* tradition is composite, synthetic, built up with layers of > accretion over a long time or constructed by a single individual or > group over a short time. Either way, we don't have a choice between > synthetic and authentic-- every spiritual tradition is synthetic. > > Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment of > the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the > Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who > insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God; > Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose > words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist > that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which > everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane > calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always > complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui > generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think > Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although > they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas. > > Currently I'm studying the Fourth Way teachings of Gurdjieff et al > and finding a similar pattern. Gurdjieff, like HPB, gave a dual > message: 1) this teaching is a composite of materials gathered in a > lifetime of global travel and contacts in many different traditions > 2) this teaching is truth itself, ancient spiritual science that > trumps all modern science and history, and comes from sources > infinitely superior to the sources of modern knowledge. In both > cases, the majority of followers blithely ignore the frank honesty of > message 1 and attach themselves passionately to the mythmaking of > message 2. Are HPB and Gurdjieff to be blamed for the way people, > given the choice between believing the truth and the lie, almost > always prefer the lie? And furiously attack anyone who questions it? > > Wondering, > > Paul ************** Well said Paul. And you need not wonder if the Vedantists and/or Avaita people are saying and doing the exact same things, I can assure you that they are. I had almost a falling out with them because I suggested, nay told them that Ramana Marahshi's teaching was a rehash and a continuation of what Patanjali taught. I mean the terminology Brahm, Ishvar all the same. But "Oh, No" they said, I did not know what I was talking about. They even said that this fine south Indian Brahmin did not believe in or was not teaching that rebirth existed. I had to find it in his writings to show them he was not denying rebirth! I think that they felt that this would somehow make of him a dishonest mystic. Dishonest if his role was merely to be a divine message, and not an original one! I told them that was RUBBISH! Why? Because there is no such thing as original spiritual teachings to be had in the first place. And Paul one thing that the RS gurus did write and say was that the Saints did not come to bring a new message, that was not their role. Maybe that message did not get across to Theosophists. And besides who are they putting into the GIHF or PLM role? Blavatsky with all her faults or the White Brotherhood masters, whom you have shown were no different from Blavatsky herself. Evidence: she could have and did write some of the Mahatma letters. Wow. Finally, I don't believe that a man or woman has to be THE SOURCE in order to transmit light. Light, energy is impersonal, only others claim a personality for it. But can't this be attributed to the followers, the overly zealous? It did not start with St. Paul, and it won't end with him. Why can't we leave this chalked up to human nature? No one ever mentions mere human nature as the cause. NOW THAT makes me wonder. Netemara From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 16:47:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 00:47:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 41262 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 00:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 00:47:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 00:47:46 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:47:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Hymn of Creation: "He verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 12459 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.202 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR DANIEL CALDWELL AND FELLOW THEO-SOPHISTS, I AM DELIGHTED THAT YOU MR. CALDWELL, HAVE TAKEN THIS DISCUSSION TO=20 ITS EARLIEST EXTANT SOURCE IN THE RIG VEDA. IN DEFERENCE TO THE=20 THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ADVAITA VEDANTIC PERSPECTIVE, LET US REFERE TO A=20 TRANSLATION OF THE VEDIC HYMNS DONE BY THE WORLD FAMOUS ADVAITA=20 VEDANTIC SANSKRIT SCHOLAR, FATHER RAIMUNDO PANIKKAR. IN HIS "THE=20 VEDIC EXPERIANCE MANTRA MANJARI AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE VEDAS FOR MODERN=20 MAN AND CONTEMPORARY CELEBRATION" (1977, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA=20 PRESS, BERKELEY AND LOS ANGELES, USA, ISBN # 0-520-02854-6 ), THE=20 HYMN YOU HAVE PROVIDED BELOW IS ON PAGE 58. THIS IS CITED IN THE=20 CHAPTER TITLED ADI, OR PRELUDE. IT IS THE NASADIYA SUKTA, RIG VEDA=20 X, I29.=20 I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THIS ANTHOLOGY TO ALL THOSE THEOSOPHISTS=20 INTERESTED IN AVAILING THEMSELVES OF MORE 'DIRECT' (VIA ENGLISH)=20 KNOWLEDGE OF THE ASTOUNDING VEDIC-VAISHNAVA HYMNS.=20 I WOULD NOT ALWAYS TRANSLATE THESE HYMNS THE SAME WAY AS FATHER=20 PANIKKAR, BECAUSE I HAVE AT MY ADVANTAGE AN INTIMATE FAMILIARITY WITH=20 THE STILL LIVING PURUSHA-WORSHIPING TRADITION OF THESE HYMNS.=20=20=20 HOWEVER, FOR AN ADVAITA VEDANTIC READING, HIS ANTHOLOGY IS EXCELLENT,=20 AND WOULD BE ESPECIALLY NICE AND INSPIRING FOR THEO-SOPHISTS OF THE=20 HPB-RELATED THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . BY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT=20 VAISHNAVISM HAS A TRADITION OF ADVAITIC THOUGHT, BUT THIS IS AN=20 INTEGRAL PART OF THE 'BRAHMAN REALIZATION' ASPECT OF THE WORSHIP OF=20 SRI KRISHNA'S (ADI PURUSHA'S) PERSONAL BODILY EFFULGENCE, CALLED THE=20 BRAHMA JYOTI. (BRAHMAN=3DBRAHMA JYOTI.)=20=20 THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD=20 REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST=20 INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND ASSOCIATED=20 WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF THE=20 BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS=20 CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE=20 LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE=20 REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND=20 IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY THE=20 SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH=20 THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME=20 PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR=20 DIRECTLY 'SEEN'.=20=20=20 THAT BEING SAID, IF YOU READ FATHER PANIKKAR'S TRANSLATION, THE SAME=20 SANSKRIT WORD (KAMA) THAT IS GENERALLY TRANSLATED TODAY BY 'HINDUS'=20=20 AND BY ADVAITIS AS "DESIRE" IS TRANSLATED BY FR. PANIKKAR AS "LOVE".=20=20 AS A VAISHNAVA, I KNOW THAT THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD KAMA, IS=20 ASSOCIATED WITH THE NAME OF SRI KRISHNA OR HARI AS KAMA. "GOD IS=20 LOVE". KAMA IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE THEOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF LOBHA /=20 INTENSE DESIRING IN VAISHNAVA BRIDAL MYSTICISM. LOBHA=3DLOVE. THE=20 ORIGIN, OBJECT, SUBJECT AND ACT OF "LOVE", IS THE ORIGINAL KAMADEVA,=20 SRI KRISHNA OR HARI. THE LORD OF ALL HEARTS IS HARI OF THE HARI- DAYA, HRI-DAYA, HRID =3D HEART (HRIDAYA =3D KARDIA ETC. ), INCLUDING=20 THE 'HEART' OR 'CORE'(HARI again) OF ALL HUMANKIND AND ALL MATERIAL=20 AND IMMATERIAL REALMS AND WORLDS, OR LOKAS (LOCATIONS).=20=20=20 THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST=20 HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE DOCTRINE=20 OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF=20 HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREMA,=20 DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA OR 'NOT- ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI=20 PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI=20 SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF=20 MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF ILLUSION=20 DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS ONLY=20 CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD=20 AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO=20 ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE=20 LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI PURUSHA=20 IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS MADE=20 MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND ALL=20 THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED! THE THEME OF THE BELOW IS THEREFORE THE MYSTERIOUS CREATIVE LOVE=20 UNION OF HARI AND SHAKTI (ELI AND SHEKINAH, HARA AND SHAKTI, HRIH AND=20 SHAKTI), GOD ESS AS LOVE, WITHIN THE 'EMPTY' SHELL OF A SAHA-WORLD=20 COSMIC MANIFESTATION.=20 THE FIRST STATE REFERS TO THE 'EMPTY' COSMIC MANIFESTATION, THE EGG=20 BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF THE ADI PURUSHA.=20 THE "ONE BREATHED" IS A REFERENCE TO THE SPIRIT-IMPREGNATING BREATH=20 OF HARI AS EITHER MAHA VISHNU OR GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU, WHO 'BREATHES'=20 THE BREATH OF LIFE (SPIRITUS) INTO THE EMPTY EGG-LIKE COSMIC SHELL. THE QUESTION POSED AT THE END OF THIS HYMN IS ANSWERED IN DEPTH AND=20 DETAIL IN THE OTHER VEDIC HYMNS, AND BHAKTI SHASTRAS (TRADITIONAL=20 VEDIC-VAISHNAVA AND SHIVA-SHAKTI SCRIPTURES OF DIVINE LOVE).=20 PAX AND PREMA TO YOU MR. CALDWELL ! BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Below I give 4 different versions of the remarkable "Hymn of=20 > Creation" from the Rig Veda.=20=20 >=20 > I remember when I was in my teens and having what later I would=20 learn=20 > were mystical experiences, I ran across the "Hymn of Creation." It=20 > awakened in me other inner experiences many of which I still do not=20 > understand.=20=20 >=20 > Later in 1968 I discovered Theosophy and the writings of Madame=20 > Blavatky. I was literally amazed when I first read the Stanzas of=20 > Dzyan and HPB's commentaries on the Stanzas. These stanzas also=20 > awakened something in me very reminiscent of my experiences with=20 the=20 > Hymn of Creation. >=20 > Several years later in the 70s, in the library where I was working,=20 I=20 > found a book written by Georg Feuerstein and Jeanine Miller.=20=20 > Information on the latest reprint of this book can be found at: >=20 > http://www.parkstpress.com/titles/essyog.htm > The Essence of Yoga: Essays on the Development of Yogic Philosophy=20 > from the Vedas to Modern Times >=20 > I was greatly impressed by the whole book especially the following=20 > chapters: >=20 > "Some Notes on Rgvedic Interpretation" (J. Miller and G.=20 Feuerstein)=20 > "The Hymn of Creation. A Philosophical Interpretation" (J. Miller)=20 > "Forerunners of Yoga: The Kesin Hymn" (J. Miller)=20 > "The Heart of Rgvedic Religion: Agni, Flame Divine" (J. Miller) >=20 > The chapter on "The Hymn of Creation" by Jeanine Miller is highly=20 > recommended, especially for students of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. >=20 > Anyway, below are the 4 versions. >=20 > Daniel >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hymn of Creation > Version 1 >=20 > Neither non-being nor being was as yet, Neither was airy space nor=20 > heavens beyond; What was enveloped? And where? Sheltered by whom?=20 And=20 > was there water? Bottomless, unfathomed?=20 >=20 > Neither was there death nor immortality, Nor was there any sign=20 then=20 > of night or day; Totally windless, by itself, the One breathed;=20 > Beyond that, indeed, nothing whatever was.=20 >=20 > In the Principle darkness concealed darkness; Undifferentiated=20 surge=20 > was this whole world. The pregnant point covered by the form=20 matrix,=20 > From conscious fervor, mightily, brought forth the One.=20 >=20 > In the Principle, thereupon, rose desire, Which of consciousness=20 was=20 > the primeval seed. Then the wise, searching within their hearts,=20 > perceived That in non-being lay the bond of being.=20 >=20 > Stretched crosswise was their line, a ray of glory. Was there a=20 > below? And was there an above? There were sowers of seeds and=20 forces=20 > of might: Potency from beneath and from on high the Will.=20 >=20 > Who really knows, who could here proclaim Whence this creation=20 flows,=20 > where is its origin? With this great surge the Gods made their=20 > appearance. Who therefore knows from where it did arise?=20 >=20 > This flow of creation, from where it did arise, Whether it was=20 > ordered or was not, He, the Observer, in the highest heaven, He=20 alone=20 > knows, unless=85He knows it not. >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hymn of Creation > Version 2 >=20 > Non-being then existed not nor being: > There was no air, nor sky that is beyond it. > What was concealed? Wherein? In whose protection? > And was there deep unfathomable water? >=20 > Death then existed not nor life immortal; > Of neither night nor day was any token. > By its inherent force the One breathed windless: > No other thing than that beyond existed. >=20 > Darkness there was at first by darkness hidden; > Without distinctive marks, this all was water. > That which, becoming, by the void was covered, > That One by force of heat came into being.=20 >=20 > Desire entered the One in the beginning: > It was the earliest seed, of thought the product. > The sages searching in their hearts with wisdom, > Found out the bond of being in non-being. >=20 > Their ray extended light across the darkness: > But was the One above or was it under? > Creative force was there, and fertile power: > Below was energy, above was impulse. >=20 > Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? > Whence was it born, and whence came this creation? > The gods were born after this world's creation: > Then who can know from whence it has arisen? >=20 > None knoweth whence creation has arisen; > And whether he has or has not produced it: > He who surveys it in the highest heaven, > He only knows, or haply he may know not >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hymn of Creation > Version 3 >=20 > At first was neither Being nor Nonbeing. > There was not air nor yet sky beyond. > What was wrapping? Where? In whose protection? > Was Water there, unfathomable deep? >=20 > There was no death then, nor yet deathlessness; > of night or day there was not any sign. > The One breathed without breath by its own impulse. > Other than that was nothing at all. >=20 > Darkness was there, all wrapped around by darkness, > and all was Water indiscriminate, Then > that which was hidden by Void, that One, emerging, > stirring, through power of Ardor, came to be. >=20 > In the beginning desire arose, > which was primal germ cell of mind. > The Seers, searching in their hearts with wisdom, > discovered the connection of Being in Nonbeing.=20 >=20 > A crosswise line cut Being from Nonbeing. > What was described above it, what below? > Bearers of seed there were and mighty forces, > thrust from below and forward move above. >=20 > Who really knows? Who can presume to tell it? > Whence was it born? Whence issued this creation? > Even the Gods came after its emergence. > Then who can tell from whence it came to be? >=20 > That out of which creation has arisen, > whether it held it firm or it did not, > He who surveys it in the highest heaven, > He surely knows - or maybe He does not!=20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Hymn of Creation > Version 4 >=20 > Then there was not non-existent nor existent:=20 > There was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. > What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter?=20 > Was water there, unfathomed depth of water? >=20 > Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: > No sign was there, the day's and night's divider. > That one thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature=20 > Apart from it was nothing whatsoever. >=20 > Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness,=20 > This All was undiscriminated chaos. > All that existed then was void and formless;=20 > By the great power of warmth was born that unit. >=20 > Thereafter rose desire in the beginning,=20 > Desire the primal seed and germ of spirit. > Sages who searched with their heart's thought=20 > Discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. >=20 > Transversely was their severing line extended:=20 > What was above it then, and what below it? > There were begetters, there were mighty forces,=20 > Free action here and energy of yonder. >=20 > Who verily knows and who can here declare it, > Whence it was born and whence comes this creation? > The gods are later than this world's production.=20 > Who knows, then, whence it first came into being? >=20 > He, the first origin of this creation,=20 > Whether he formed it all or did not form it, > Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven,=20 > He verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 17:00:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 01:00:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 22202 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 01:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 01:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 01:00:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 01:00:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:00:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDC221E.B5C61025@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1999 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.202 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters are the > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance > > to Theosophists. Message 8934 of 8981 "THEIR TESTIMONY MUST BE REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine and practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally that from the point of view of the "original programme" of the Society, no theosophical association has any raison d'etre if it does not remain true to the Masters and their teaching. There are some who seem to believe that it is possible to be faithful to the Masters while denying even the theoretical truth of their teaching. This is where the responsibility of the old Theosophical Society is so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma Letters the writer had occasion to point out in what important particulars that Society showed by its actions a serious divergence from the spirit and letter of the original teaching. That volume proves beyond question that H. P. B.'s writings are absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings, and in nothing is this more clearly discernible than in her exposition of the doctrines relating to the Life after Death. A. TREVOR BARKER. LONDON, December, 1924." ********************************************************************** Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS." ********************************************************************** "Mahatma Letter No. 134 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm "...OF THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA..." From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 17:54:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 01:54:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 48243 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 01:54:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 01:54:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 01:54:12 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EgXi-0006zd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:54:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDC3BC3.FEF49F16@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:49:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS, AND A LIE THAT CONTAINS A TRUE WORD HERE AND THERE IS STILL A LIE. Now... Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters > are the > > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for > Theosophists. > > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical > importance > > > to Theosophists. The key part of that statement is not that the Mahatmas considered themselves to be Buddhists, or that they believe in what they consider to be the only true philosophy. The statement is that the letters themselves contain that philosophy, as opposed to merely describing a few aspects of that philosophy, and imperfectly at that. THOSE are the most important parts of the statement, and proving other parts does not take away from the basic falsehood of the statement. > "THEIR TESTIMONY > MUST BE > REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine > and ... > A. TREVOR BARKER. > LONDON, > December, 1924." A) Barker was trying to sell a book. He was giving his own personal opinion, NOT speaking for any Theosophical Society. B) The Mahatmas THEMSELVES write not to accept the writings simply because it came from them. Therefore, to accept them on the basis of their authority is to go against their authority. > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS." So, the Mahatma's considered themselves to be Buddhists. Has nothing to do with the main thrust of the statement. > "Mahatma Letter No. 134 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > "...OF THE ONLY TRUE > PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA..." Taken out of context. Following the link, and reading the whole sentence, "Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us.", it is clear that they are NOT saying that these letters are even representative of this "one true philosophy". Future missives on this topic will steadily decrease in politeness. Bart From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 18:22:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 02:22:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 18174 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 02:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 02:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 02:22:19 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.164.17680e65 (3956) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:22:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <164.17680e65.2b0d9d56@cs.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:22:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Mahatmas ment Aryan as the 5e subrace ! And NOT the 4... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, Here is an Article posted a while titled "Indo-Afgan bond, down the ages" from The Statesman 31-01-02. The website is:http://www.india-behindthenews.com/02_india_afganistan.html In the article a distinction is made as to "White India" in the context of Ancient History when what is now known as Afghanistan had a more integral relation to the classic peoples of India. As to the "Aryan Invasion" theory I recommend the following findings which details at some length the consequences and resultants produced derived from modern satellite photographic means which discovered the Ancient Sarasvati River and how new dating of the processes of the movement of the populations were directly intimate to the changes of the Rig Veda Sarasvati to promote migration of survival. http://sanskrit.bhaarat.com/Dale/pdf/ORIGINS.PDF there is a html version accessible-using Google search Origins of Vedic Culture John From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 18:40:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 02:40:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 32275 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 02:40:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 02:40:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 02:40:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.f.2adc295 (3956) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:40:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:40:23 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World approaches to the subject of Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Morten, Thanks, yes I will see what you have recommended. And yes, you are spot-on about the Kalachakra, the commentary on the Book of Kui-te was by Vimalaprabra which also leads one into the concepts of the Kalachakra Teaching, and revelant to discussions here about the doctrine of Cycles and Time and Being itself. Interesting also in terms of the first presentation of the Kalachakra Teaching was that it was given for the first at the Crest Jewel of Buddhist Learning at Nalanda University. Here is a reference website: As you may recall an earlier post in regard to the Mahatma validation words Kin-t-an Na-lan-da Dha-ra-ni. http://www.kalachakranet.org/kcintro.html From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 20 18:43:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 02:43:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 14420 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 02:43:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 02:43:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 02:43:01 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.114.1aeaa58b (3956) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:42:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <114.1aeaa58b.2b0da22f@cs.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:42:55 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Nature's Grosser Forces To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Steve, I think you meant "Natures Finer Forces" did you not ? John From levey_steven@hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 19:02:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 03:02:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 94487 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 03:02:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 03:02:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 03:02:00 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:02:00 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:01:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Nov 2002 03:02:00.0046 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C1648E0:01C2910A] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.33] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Group-I have never been sure of the purpose for which the Mahatma letters have been written and publishing them seems to have only clouded so many individuals relationship to Theosophy. To me they stand in the way of taking to heart the duty of the Heart Doctrine. The Mahatmas will always be, as the higher self of each, never approachable through letters or through others. Jesus said that all must go through him to the father. As long as we take that statement as concretely as the church would have it we shall be empowering others and their words but never getting any closer to that in each of us or the Mahatmas. The Christos in man (each man) must be that which we endeavor to activate, realize, empower (how ever one will say or think it) before that or them are in our lives. And if, through discussing anything about the Mahatmas( Letters, or what ever) we are not attempting to realize the meaning of the truths they put before us through whatever means, then what are we doing? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:54 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS, AND A LIE THAT CONTAINS A TRUE WORD HERE AND THERE IS STILL A LIE. Now... Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters > are the > > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for > Theosophists. > > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical > importance > > > to Theosophists. The key part of that statement is not that the Mahatmas considered themselves to be Buddhists, or that they believe in what they consider to be the only true philosophy. The statement is that the letters themselves contain that philosophy, as opposed to merely describing a few aspects of that philosophy, and imperfectly at that. THOSE are the most important parts of the statement, and proving other parts does not take away from the basic falsehood of the statement. > "THEIR TESTIMONY > MUST BE > REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine > and ... > A. TREVOR BARKER. > LONDON, > December, 1924." A) Barker was trying to sell a book. He was giving his own personal opinion, NOT speaking for any Theosophical Society. B) The Mahatmas THEMSELVES write not to accept the writings simply because it came from them. Therefore, to accept them on the basis of their authority is to go against their authority. > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS." So, the Mahatma's considered themselves to be Buddhists. Has nothing to do with the main thrust of the statement. > "Mahatma Letter No. 134 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > "...OF THE ONLY TRUE > PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA..." Taken out of context. Following the link, and reading the whole sentence, "Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us.", it is clear that they are NOT saying that these letters are even representative of this "one true philosophy". Future missives on this topic will steadily decrease in politeness. Bart Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Nov 20 19:07:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 03:07:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 26150 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 03:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 03:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 03:07:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 12769 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 03:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (66.27.176.113) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 03:08:21 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.27.176.113 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 22:08:21(EST) on November 20, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.27.176.113 To: Subject: [mahat] latest theosophical class Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:07:10 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@unix172.hosting-network.com. to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.218.66.86 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 21:29:56(EST) on November 09, 2002 X-HELO-From: n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.218.66.86 X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: mahat@yahoogroups.com List-Unsubscribe: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 66.27.176.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I've put the most recent class of the Malibu ULT online. It was on THE SECRET DOCTRINE, volume II, page 307. The file is encoded at 32kbps mp3 file and can be listened to at: http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/webram/20021119.ram It can be downloaded for offline listening from: http://www.theosophist.com/collection/malibu-sd2/mp3/20021119.mp3 Every theosophical class is different. They vary in diversity of membership, depth of knowledge of the philosophy, manner of approach to the materials, and openness to a study of other materials. Note then that this group is not necessarily representative of others, no more so that any group would be. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 19:43:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 03:43:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 87505 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 03:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 03:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 03:43:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 03:43:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 03:43:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Hymn of Creation: "He verily knows it, or perhaps he knows it not." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 9981 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.190.94 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DATING THE RIG VEDA... PLEASE NOTE THAT THE PURUSHA SUKTA IS=20 GENERALLY CONSIDERED ONE OF THE OLDEST, IF NOT THE OLDEST OF ALL THE=20 RIG VEDIC HYMNS.=20 cross post excerpt from the indiancivilization yahoo egroup =20=20 From: "gktk_us"=20 Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:49 am Subject: Age of Veda: Was Re: How accurate is the current version of=20 Rig Veda? Update on the continuing search :) --- In IndianCivilization@y..., "Raj Mohanka" wrote: >=20 > The age (of Rg Veda) you mentioned, 7000 years is a bit too far in=20 my opinion.=20 > From the works of scriptural and historical experts, I believe a=20 > consensus is forming that the Vedas go back to the 4000/3000 B.C.E.=20 > timeframe which puts them at 6000 years old at a MAXIMUM with 5000=20 > years old probably more likely. Cross posted from "sarasvatisindhu@yahoogroups.com" Message # 122: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 2:45 am Subject: Dating the Veda: 10000 BC; celestial key B.G. Siddharth, 1999, The Celestial Key to the Vedas: Discovering the=20 origins of the world's oldest civilization, Rochester, Vermont, Inner=20 Traditions.=3D=20 This work provides an astronomical key to the date of the Veda-dating it ca. 10,000 BC.=20 =20 ********************************************************************** --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" =20 wrote: > DEAR DANIEL CALDWELL AND FELLOW THEO-SOPHISTS, >=20 > I AM DELIGHTED THAT YOU MR. CALDWELL, HAVE TAKEN THIS DISCUSSION TO=20 > ITS EARLIEST EXTANT SOURCE IN THE RIG VEDA. IN DEFERENCE TO THE=20 > THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ADVAITA VEDANTIC PERSPECTIVE, LET US REFERE TO=20 A=20 > TRANSLATION OF THE VEDIC HYMNS DONE BY THE WORLD FAMOUS ADVAITA=20 > VEDANTIC SANSKRIT SCHOLAR, FATHER RAIMUNDO PANIKKAR. IN HIS "THE=20 > VEDIC EXPERIANCE MANTRA MANJARI AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE VEDAS FOR=20 MODERN=20 > MAN AND CONTEMPORARY CELEBRATION" (1977, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA=20 > PRESS, BERKELEY AND LOS ANGELES, USA, ISBN # 0-520-02854-6 ), THE=20 > HYMN YOU HAVE PROVIDED BELOW IS ON PAGE 58. THIS IS CITED IN THE=20 > CHAPTER TITLED ADI, OR PRELUDE. IT IS THE NASADIYA SUKTA, RIG VEDA=20 > X, I29.=20 >=20 > I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THIS ANTHOLOGY TO ALL THOSE THEOSOPHISTS=20 > INTERESTED IN AVAILING THEMSELVES OF MORE 'DIRECT' (VIA ENGLISH)=20 > KNOWLEDGE OF THE ASTOUNDING VEDIC-VAISHNAVA HYMNS.=20 >=20 > I WOULD NOT ALWAYS TRANSLATE THESE HYMNS THE SAME WAY AS FATHER=20 > PANIKKAR, BECAUSE I HAVE AT MY ADVANTAGE AN INTIMATE FAMILIARITY=20 WITH=20 > THE STILL LIVING PURUSHA-WORSHIPING TRADITION OF THESE HYMNS.=20=20=20 > HOWEVER, FOR AN ADVAITA VEDANTIC READING, HIS ANTHOLOGY IS=20 EXCELLENT,=20 > AND WOULD BE ESPECIALLY NICE AND INSPIRING FOR THEO-SOPHISTS OF THE=20 > HPB-RELATED THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . BY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE NOTED=20 THAT=20 > VAISHNAVISM HAS A TRADITION OF ADVAITIC THOUGHT, BUT THIS IS AN=20 > INTEGRAL PART OF THE 'BRAHMAN REALIZATION' ASPECT OF THE WORSHIP OF=20 > SRI KRISHNA'S (ADI PURUSHA'S) PERSONAL BODILY EFFULGENCE, CALLED=20 THE=20 > BRAHMA JYOTI. (BRAHMAN=3DBRAHMA JYOTI.)=20=20 >=20 > THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD=20 > REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST=20 > INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND=20 ASSOCIATED=20 > WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF=20 THE=20 > BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS=20 > CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE=20 > LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE=20 > REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND=20 > IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY=20 THE=20 > SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH=20 > THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME=20 > PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR=20 > DIRECTLY 'SEEN'.=20=20=20 >=20 > THAT BEING SAID, IF YOU READ FATHER PANIKKAR'S TRANSLATION, THE=20 SAME=20 > SANSKRIT WORD (KAMA) THAT IS GENERALLY TRANSLATED TODAY=20 BY 'HINDUS'=20=20 > AND BY ADVAITIS AS "DESIRE" IS TRANSLATED BY FR. PANIKKAR=20 AS "LOVE".=20=20 > AS A VAISHNAVA, I KNOW THAT THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD KAMA, IS=20 > ASSOCIATED WITH THE NAME OF SRI KRISHNA OR HARI AS KAMA. "GOD IS=20 > LOVE". KAMA IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE THEOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF LOBHA /=20 > INTENSE DESIRING IN VAISHNAVA BRIDAL MYSTICISM. LOBHA=3DLOVE. THE=20 > ORIGIN, OBJECT, SUBJECT AND ACT OF "LOVE", IS THE ORIGINAL=20 KAMADEVA,=20 > SRI KRISHNA OR HARI. THE LORD OF ALL HEARTS IS HARI OF THE HARI- > DAYA, HRI-DAYA, HRID =3D HEART (HRIDAYA =3D KARDIA ETC. ), INCLUDING=20 > THE 'HEART' OR 'CORE'(HARI again) OF ALL HUMANKIND AND ALL MATERIAL=20 > AND IMMATERIAL REALMS AND WORLDS, OR LOKAS (LOCATIONS).=20=20=20 >=20 >=20 > THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST=20 > HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE=20 DOCTRINE=20 > OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF=20 > HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF=20 PREMA,=20 > DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA=20 OR 'NOT- > ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI=20 > PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI=20 > SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF=20 > MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF=20 ILLUSION=20 > DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS=20 ONLY=20 > CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD=20 > AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO=20 > ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE=20 > LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI=20 PURUSHA=20 > IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS=20 MADE=20 > MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND=20 ALL=20 > THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED! >=20 > THE THEME OF THE BELOW IS THEREFORE THE MYSTERIOUS CREATIVE LOVE=20 > UNION OF HARI AND SHAKTI (ELI AND SHEKINAH, HARA AND SHAKTI, HRIH=20 AND=20 > SHAKTI), GOD ESS AS LOVE, WITHIN THE 'EMPTY' SHELL OF A SAHA-WORLD=20 > COSMIC MANIFESTATION.=20 >=20 > THE FIRST STATE REFERS TO THE 'EMPTY' COSMIC MANIFESTATION, THE EGG=20 > BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF THE ADI PURUSHA.=20 >=20 > THE "ONE BREATHED" IS A REFERENCE TO THE SPIRIT-IMPREGNATING BREATH=20 > OF HARI AS EITHER MAHA VISHNU OR GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU,=20 WHO 'BREATHES'=20 > THE BREATH OF LIFE (SPIRITUS) INTO THE EMPTY EGG-LIKE COSMIC SHELL. >=20 > THE QUESTION POSED AT THE END OF THIS HYMN IS ANSWERED IN DEPTH AND=20 > DETAIL IN THE OTHER VEDIC HYMNS, AND BHAKTI SHASTRAS (TRADITIONAL=20 > VEDIC-VAISHNAVA AND SHIVA-SHAKTI SCRIPTURES OF DIVINE LOVE).=20 >=20 > PAX AND PREMA TO YOU MR. CALDWELL ! >=20 > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI >=20 > -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Below I give 4 different versions of the remarkable "Hymn of=20 > > Creation" from the Rig Veda.=20=20 > >=20 > > I remember when I was in my teens and having what later I would=20 > learn=20 > > were mystical experiences, I ran across the "Hymn of Creation."=20=20 It=20 > > awakened in me other inner experiences many of which I still do=20 not=20 > > understand.=20=20 > >=20 > > Later in 1968 I discovered Theosophy and the writings of Madame=20 > > Blavatky. I was literally amazed when I first read the Stanzas=20 of=20 > > Dzyan and HPB's commentaries on the Stanzas. These stanzas also=20 > > awakened something in me very reminiscent of my experiences with=20 > the=20 > > Hymn of Creation. > >=20 > > Several years later in the 70s, in the library where I was=20 working,=20 > I=20 > > found a book written by Georg Feuerstein and Jeanine Miller.=20=20 > > Information on the latest reprint of this book can be found at: > >=20 > > http://www.parkstpress.com/titles/essyog.htm > > The Essence of Yoga: Essays on the Development of Yogic=20 Philosophy=20 > > from the Vedas to Modern Times > >=20 > > I was greatly impressed by the whole book especially the=20 following=20 > > chapters: > >=20 > > "Some Notes on Rgvedic Interpretation" (J. Miller and G.=20 > Feuerstein)=20 > > "The Hymn of Creation. A Philosophical Interpretation" (J.=20 Miller)=20 > > "Forerunners of Yoga: The Kesin Hymn" (J. Miller)=20 > > "The Heart of Rgvedic Religion: Agni, Flame Divine" (J. Miller) > >=20 > > The chapter on "The Hymn of Creation" by Jeanine Miller is highly=20 > > recommended, especially for students of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > >=20 > > Anyway, below are the 4 versions. > >=20 > > Daniel > >=20 > > ----------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > Hymn of Creation > > Version 1 > >=20 > > Neither non-being nor being was as yet, Neither was airy space=20 nor=20 > > heavens beyond; What was enveloped? And where? Sheltered by whom?=20 > And=20 > > was there water? Bottomless, unfathomed?=20 > >=20 > > Neither was there death nor immortality, Nor was there any sign=20 > then=20 > > of night or day; Totally windless, by itself, the One breathed;=20 > > Beyond that, indeed, nothing whatever was.=20 > >=20 > > In the Principle darkness concealed darkness; Undifferentiated=20 > surge=20 > > was this whole world. The pregnant point covered by the form=20 > matrix,=20 > > From conscious fervor, mightily, brought forth the One.=20 > >=20 > > In the Principle, thereupon, rose desire, Which of consciousness=20 > was=20 > > the primeval seed. Then the wise, searching within their hearts,=20 > > perceived That in non-being lay the bond of being.=20 > >=20 > > Stretched crosswise was their line, a ray of glory. Was there a=20 > > below? And was there an above? There were sowers of seeds and=20 > forces=20 > > of might: Potency from beneath and from on high the Will.=20 > >=20 > > Who really knows, who could here proclaim Whence this creation=20 > flows,=20 > > where is its origin? With this great surge the Gods made their=20 > > appearance. Who therefore knows from where it did arise?=20 > >=20 > > This flow of creation, from where it did arise, Whether it was=20 > > ordered or was not, He, the Observer, in the highest heaven, He=20 > alone=20 > > knows, unless=85He knows it not. > >=20 > > ----------------------------------------------------- From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 20 21:38:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 05:38:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 32316 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 05:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 05:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 05:38:38 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E3A945EE4B0 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:38:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000e01c2911f$7ca81880$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DDC221E.B5C61025@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World ARE THE MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:33:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, I will have to agree with Bart here. The below statement from Brian Muehlbach is certainly a clear lie or misinterpretation. One just needs to read the book "The Key to Theosophy" to understand that. That the words by Brian, in the below, like "only", "primary" and "canonical" are a wrong interpretation of what Theosophy really is, must be clear. from M. Sufilight with tears and the like... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:00 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World ARE THE MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters are the > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance > > to Theosophists. > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 20 21:50:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 05:50:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 69855 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 05:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 05:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 05:50:17 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A50B55EE42D for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:50:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001a01c29121$1d3731e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:44:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bakthi and all of you, Well, oh dear oh dear... I have to agree, that Trevor Barker are wrong in his views upon Theosophy as they are stated in the below. Not all Theosophist have been without faults through the times, ... and Trevor is one of them. The word "authority" must certainly be wrong in the below. Christ or Krishna did better, although some of the words of Christ and Krishna today have been distorted by other people. from M. Sufilight with a happy smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:00 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters > are the > > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for > Theosophists. > > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical > importance > > > to Theosophists. > > Message 8934 of 8981 > > "THEIR TESTIMONY > MUST BE > REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine > and > practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally that from the > point of > view of the "original programme" of the Society, no theosophical > association > has any raison d'etre if it does not remain true to the Masters and > their > teaching. There are some who seem to believe that it is possible to be > faithful to the Masters while denying even the theoretical truth of > their > teaching. This is where the responsibility of the old Theosophical > Society > is so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma Letters the writer had > occasion to point out in what important particulars that Society > showed by > its actions a serious divergence from the spirit and letter of the > original > teaching. That volume proves beyond question that H. P. B.'s writings > are > absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings, and in nothing is > this > more clearly discernible than in her exposition of the doctrines > relating to > the Life after Death. > > A. TREVOR BARKER. > LONDON, > December, 1924." > > ********************************************************************** > > > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS." > > ********************************************************************** > > > "Mahatma Letter No. 134 > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > "...OF THE ONLY TRUE > PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA..." > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 20 23:30:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 07:30:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 95243 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 07:30:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 07:30:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 07:30:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 07:30:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:30:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01c29121$1d3731e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6150 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn FROM BA G DEAR THEOSOPHISTS, THE MAHATMA LETTERS USED BY THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AS BELOW ARE IN THE EDITION OF A. TREVOR BARKER IN QUESTION. IF YOU SAY THAT HIS CLAIM FOR THEIR AUTHORITY WAS TO SELL A BOOK, HAVEN'T YOU IMPEACHED THE CREDIBILITY OF YOUR OWN WITNESS, PRIMARY SOURCE WORK, AND THE MAHATMAS THEMSELVES ? ***************** BART L. WROTE: A) Barker was trying to sell a book. He was giving his own personal opinion, NOT speaking for any Theosophical Society. B) The Mahatmas THEMSELVES write not to accept the writings simply because it came from them. Therefore, to accept them on the basis of their authority is to go against their authority. ***************** THIS LAST STATEMENT IS ABSURD. THERE COMES A POINT WHEN SOPHISTICATED WORD-JUGGLERY FAILS, AND ONE MUST FACE THE FACTS, AND STOP TRYING TO WRANGLE SENSE OUT OF NONSENSE. THE MAHATMA LETTERS OF A.T. BARKER, A PRIMARY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY SOURCE-WORK... The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett Theosophical University Press Edition --------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents NOTE: Files of each letter are named according to the letter number assigned by A. T. Barker in his first and second editions, given in Arabic numerals, as in ml-#.htm. To go to a particular letter, change the last section of the current URL from ml-con.htm to the file name reflecting the number of the letter. For example, to go to Letter 5, type ml-5.htm; for letter 24b, type ml-24b.htm, etc. For a description of the contents of each letter, see the detailed contents below. Individual letters are linked both numerically, according to Barker's numbering system, and chronologically according to the order given in Margaret Conger's Combined Chronology for the Mahatma and Blavatsky Letters to A. P. Sinnett, with both the next and the previous Mahatma and Blavatsky letter. The Letters not placed chronologically are: 33, 97, 108, 123, 145, and Views of the Chohan on the TS. Compiler's Prefaces Introduction by A. Trevor Barker Foreword to Combined Chronology of Margaret Conger by Grace F. Knoche Preface and Introduction to the Combined Chronology by Margaret Conger Biographical Sketches and Bibliography by Margaret Conger How the Mahatma Letters Were Written by A. Trevor Barker Mars and Mercury by A. Trevor Barker First Letter of K. H. to A. O. Hume View of the Chohan on the T. S. Homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Detailed Contents of The Mahatma Letters Quick Links to description of Sections Section 1 -- Occult World Series Section 2 -- Philosophical and Theoretical Teachings 1881-1883 Section 3 -- Probation and Chelaship Section 4 -- The Phoenix Venture and the Condition of India Section 5 -- The London Lodge of The Theosophical Society Section 6 -- Spiritualism and Phenomena Section 7 -- Miscellaneous Letters Appendix --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi Bakthi and all of you, > > Well, oh dear oh dear... > I have to agree, that Trevor Barker are wrong in his views upon Theosophy as > they are stated in the below. > Not all Theosophist have been without faults through the times, ... and > Trevor is one of them. > The word "authority" must certainly be wrong in the below. Christ or Krishna > did better, although some of the words of Christ and Krishna today have been > distorted by other people. > > > from > M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:00 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: > THE EVIDENCE > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > > REPEATING LIES ABOUT THEOSOPHY DOESN'T TURN THEM INTO TRUTHS. > > > > > > brianmuehlbach wrote: > > > > 1. The only true philosophy of the earth, Theosophy identified as > > > > Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these letters > > are the > > > > primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for > > Theosophists. > > > > Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical > > importance > > > > to Theosophists. > > > > Message 8934 of 8981 > > > > "THEIR TESTIMONY > > MUST BE > > REGARDED AS THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY on all matters of occult doctrine > > and > > practice. And here it must be stated unequivocally that from the > > point of > > view of the "original programme" of the Society, no theosophical > > association > > has any raison d'etre if it does not remain true to the Masters and > > their > > teaching. There are some who seem to believe that it is possible to be > > faithful to the Masters while denying even the theoretical truth of > > their > > teaching. This is where the responsibility of the old Theosophical > > Society > > is so grave. In his Introduction to The Mahatma Letters the writer had > > occasion to point out in what important particulars that Society > > showed by > > its actions a serious divergence from the spirit and letter of the > > original > > teaching. That volume proves beyond question that H. P. B.'s writings > > are > > absolutely consistent with the Masters' teachings, and in nothing is > > this > > more clearly discernible than in her exposition of the doctrines > > relating to > > the Life after Death. > > > > A. TREVOR BARKER. > > LONDON, > > December, 1924." > > > > ********************************************************************** > > > > > > Mahatma Letter No. 10 > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm > > > > "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS." > > > > ********************************************************************** > > > > > > "Mahatma Letter No. 134 > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm > > > > "...OF THE ONLY TRUE > > PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA..." > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 20 23:32:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 07:32:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 85805 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 07:32:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 07:32:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 07:32:54 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ElpW-00055Y-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:32:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDC8AFC.95613D7D@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:27:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Bhakti Ananda Goswami, lacking in any reasonable arguments, used his sophistry: > > FROM BA G > > DEAR THEOSOPHISTS, > > THE MAHATMA LETTERS USED BY THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AS BELOW ARE IN > THE EDITION OF A. TREVOR BARKER IN QUESTION. IF YOU SAY THAT HIS > CLAIM FOR THEIR AUTHORITY WAS TO SELL A BOOK, HAVEN'T YOU IMPEACHED > THE CREDIBILITY OF YOUR OWN WITNESS, PRIMARY SOURCE WORK, AND THE > MAHATMAS THEMSELVES ? Nope. Bart From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 00:14:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 08:14:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 91884 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 08:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 08:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 08:14:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 08:14:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:14:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: MAHATMA LETTERS SYNTHETIC . Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14200 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Reg. Mahatma Letter No. 10 "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS."=20 Brian: It is exactly the contradictory statements "The Mahatmas" that=20 more then anything else (along with evidence some of their contents=20 was directly copied from printed material in the USA for examole P.B.=20 Randolph's "Seership") that more then anything else show their and the=20 synthetic nature.=20 At one point Blavatsky's will claim Theosophy as a believe in "God"=20 other quotes claim it to be "voidist" and again other will exactly look=20 like the emanationist theories of (Western !) Renaisance neo-Platonists. The same with the role of "Reincarnation" later quoted as part of=20 Theosophies race theory. The fact that reincarnation is designated by the same label as=20 reincarnation doctrines of Oriental or other provenance should not=20 obscure the fact that the various beliefs display considerable=20 differences.=20=20 The belief in reincarnation prevalent in certain in Neoplatonism, was=20 largely eclipsed during centuries of Christian hegemony, and reentered=20 the Western history of ideas with the revival of interest in the Kabbala.=20 The transmigration of souls or gilgul became a major doctrinal element=20 with the sixteenth century school of Isaac Luria (1534-1572). Lunia's=20 own doctrines were basically an esoteric teaching reserved for the=20 initiated, and were set down in writing by his disciples. Lurianic texts=20 were translated from Hebrew into Latin by Christian Knorr von=20 Rosenroth as part of his Kabbala denudata, published in three volumes,=20 the first two in 1677-78 and the last in 1684. Francois Mercure van=20 Helmont (1614-1699), believed that the doctrine of transmigration of=20 souls could be made the cornerstone of a universal Christianity: by this=20 means, the souls of individuals who had lived in the wrong time and=20 place to have heard of the Gospel would have a chance of salvation. Van=20 Helmont in turn influenced Anne Conway who openly defended=20 transmigration.=20 A more influential attempt to formulate a melioristic view of=20 reincarnation was undertaken by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (1729-1781)=20 toward the end of his theological and philosophical essay Die Erziehung=20 des Menschengeschlechtes, published in 1780.", Lessing sees the history=20 of mankind as a story of ever greater insight and perfection. Earlier=20 religions had merely been didactic instruments, preludes to a truly=20 humanitarian faith. Historically, Judaism and Christianity have been the=20 two great educating influences on mankind. However, the next step in=20 the spiritual evolution of humanity would soon take place. This tripartite = =3D=0D scheme of history resembles that of Joachim of Fiore and the=20 Joachimites, and Lessing implicitly credits them with the theory of three=20 ages. Soon to have an influence also on Blavatsky.=20 Belief in reincarnation soon took the leap from the pages of=20 Enlightenment philosophers to the seance rooms. Thus by 1790, a small=20 proto-spiritualist circle in Copenhagen led by the brother-in-law of the=20 Danish king Christian VII, prince Karl of Hessen-Kassel, had been=20 instructed in a reincarnationist doctrine resembling that of Kant and=20 Lessing by a voice speaking from a white cloud. The wife of the Danish=20 minister of foreign affairs, Auguste von Bernstorff, who was one of the=20 five members, was proclaimed to be an incarnation of Mary Magdalene.=20 It would take another six decades before the belief in reincarnation=20 spread from such small groups of occultists and freethinkers to a=20 somewhat larger audience of religious seekers. The basic mechanism of=20 belief-the intervention of spiritual entities-would remain remarkably=20 unchanged for another century.=20 Jean-Baptiste Willermoz conducted sessions with a talented=20 somnambule, asking her questions to which, with the aid of the spirit=20 world, she was able to give authoritative answers which were recorded=20 in detail. The first documented afterlife beliefs of the mesmerist milieu=20 are notes dating from 1785, which are infused with Christian mythology:=20 the dead go to heaven, hell or purgatory; or alternatively, their destiny=20 will be decided on the day of judgement. (N. Edelman Voyantes,=20 guerisseuses et visionnaires en France 1765-1914, 1995, p. 23. ff)=20 Kardec adopted the method introduced by Willermoz, Le livre des=20 esprit's was reprinted in numerous editions, other spiritists adopted his=20 beliefs, and reincarnation became part of the canonical doctrines of the=20 French spiritist movement.=20 Two discursive strategies are central to Kardec's work. The first is the=20 reliance on revealed truth. Kardec's book of more than 470 pages does=20 not refer to a single contemporary printed source or spokesperson. At=20 most, the reader that belief in reincarnation has existed since times=20 immemonal among the Pythagoreans, Hindus and Egyptians.=20 The rhetorical strength behind this strategy is hardly in doubt: every last= =3D=0D =20 detail recorded in Le livre des esprits is directly taken from the dictatio= =3D=0D n=20 of the spirits. The form of the book reflects this method: it is basically = =3D=0D a=20 pastiche of Christian catechisms, with Kardec's questions followed by the=20 spirits' answers in quotation marks.=20 His position is an innovation compared with earlier speculations:=20 deceased spirits can never regress-, at worst, their progress towards=20 God is merely halted temporarily. In short, Kardec lets the spirits elevate= =3D=0D =20 a morally justified hope to the status of revealed truth.=20 To strengthen his case, Kardec resorts to a second strategy, scientism.=20 Already, the first mesmerist or somnambulist sessions were conceived=20 of as methods of empirically exploring invisible dimensions of the=20 cosmos. Spiritism uses the same rhetorical move to gain legitimacy.=20 Thus, Kardec repeatedly and explicitly refers to his method as a new=20 science.=20 Several elements of what would become theosophical reincarnation=20 doctrine were already in place. The human soul reincarnates in order to=20 progress spiritually. Incarnations take place not only on earth, but also=20 on other planets. However the English channel was a formidable barrier=20 to the spread of Kardecist theories of reincarnation, which did not gain=20 much influence in the Anglo-American world until around 1880.=20 (Godwin "Theosophical Enlightenment")=20 The first link to Theosophy was lady Caithness, she became the=20 recipient of a series of mediumistic revelations from sources as diverse=20 as Mary Stuart and the archangel Gabriel. These messages were set=20 down in writing and, over a period of twenty years, grew into a series of=20 books. The second link, Anna Kingsford, made the acquaintance of lady=20 Caithness while studying medicine in Paris.=20 Kingsford, which in other English, was the creator of a religious=20 worldview clearly based on Kardec's and the other French spiritists'=20 melioristic beliefs. In her main work, The Perfect Way or the Finding of=20 Christ, published in 1882, she explains in typically evolutionist language = =3D=0D how the soul aspires to progress from plant to animal to human, and=20 finally to leave the physical body behind. Anna Kingsford herself claimed=20 to have once lived as Mary Magdalene. In Kingsford's view, physical=20 existence is an evil to be overcome.=20 Upon her return to London, Kingsford joined the British section of the=20 Theosophical Society. A few British spiritualists had already adopted the = =3D=0D doctrine of reincarnation. However, it appears that the publication of=20 The Perfect Way, which attracted a great deal of attention, was crucial=20 in achieving a critical mass for the controversial doctrine. Coincidentally= =3D=0D =20 or not, theosophical writings began to mention reincarnation as a=20 spiritual truth for the first time around this same year 1882.=20 Blavatsky had claimed that the transmigration of souls was "an=20 exception, a phenomenon as abnormal as a fetus with two heads." As=20 noted above, around 1882, Blavatsky had changed her mind. Since both=20 the earlier and the later teachings were allegedly received from the=20 same group of ascended Masters, the discrepancy became quite=20 embarrassing. As recent as late 1876 Blavatsky had written in her=20 scrapbook: "Mind is the quintessence of the Soul-and having joined its=20 divine Spirit Nous-can return no more to earth. IMPOSSIBLE."=20 Also Olcott's letter of May 20, 1876, to M.A. Oxon gave testimony of this. = =3D=0D On the Barones von Vay's wanting to join the Theosophical Society: "If=20 she wants to come in with us she can-but she must scrape off her=20 Reincarnation shoes at the door; there's no room for that in our=20 Philosophy."=20 Exegetical treatises followed Blavatsky's lead in adopting reincarnation.=20 In chapter 5 of Sinnett's Esoteric Buddhism, the author explains the=20 destiny of man after death. Of the seven components that make up our=20 persons, the three lower pass away at the moment of physical death.=20 If earlier theories on life after death were largely based on privileged=20 knowledge, in the Mahatma Letters, and even more in Sinnett's book,=20 the discursive strategies of science and tradition were mobilized. The=20 description of life after death increasingly rested on a number of=20 Sanskrit terms, which, just like the title of his book, define the positive= =3D=0D =20 Others. In a style that will later be typical of other major theosophical=20 movement texts, these Orientalist references are interspersed with=20 appeals to contemporary science, including nineteenth century pseudo- sciences such as mesmerism. Thus, from their existence in Devachan,=20 souls can appear to spiritualist mediums and magnetic somnambules=20 because the spirit of the sensitive getting odylized, so to say, by the aur= =3D=0D a=20 of the spirit in the Devachan, becomes for a few minutes that departed=20 personality, and writes in the handwriting of the latter, in his language=20 and in his thoughts as they were during his lifetime. Thus what is called = =3D=0D rapport, is, in plain fact, an identity of molecular vibration between the = =3D=0D astral part of the incarnate medium and the astral part of the discarnate=20 personality. (Sinnett "Esoteric Buddhism", pp. 146 f.)=20 The belief in reincarnation advanced from being a minority view to=20 becoming one of the core elements of the arguably most influential=20 esoteric movement of the late nineteenth century.=20 A fundamental discursive strategy, legitimizing not only the belief in=20 reincarnation but also the theosophical myth as a whole, is the=20 construction of tradition. The Secret Doctrine is allegedly based on an=20 ancient manuscript, the Book of Dzyan.=20 Blavatsky claimed that this palm leaf manuscript from Atlantis contained=20 the true core of all the great religions. Implicitly, reincarnation had=20 passed in six years from being a controversial innovation to becoming a=20 central tenet of all the religious traditions of the world-or at least of t= =3D=0D he=20 esoteric aspect of each of these traditions=85.=20 Blavatsky's reincarnation doctrine builds on elements deriving from=20 several different sources. Due to the inherent difficulties in harmonizing = =3D=0D historically distinct traditions, her reincarnation doctrine is not free fr= =3D=0D om=20 contradictions. At times, she seems to draw on the purported roots of=20 the "ancient wisdom religion" in a generalized Buddhism. Thus,=20 Blavatsky can refer to "the great truth that reincarnation is to be=20 dreaded, as existence in this world only entails upon man suffering,=20 misery and pain." (SD I:39)=20 Nevertheless, following a view that could be either Hindu or Platonic, but = =3D=0D certainly not Buddhist in any orthodox sense, she claims that there is a=20 unique individuality that incarnates again and again. In a reminiscence of = =3D=0D an earlier Western esoteric tradition, the individual is said to reincarnat= =3D=0D e=20 after a stay in the astral plane." Another echo of the frequent esoteric=20 preoccupation with the number seven, the individual is said to be=20 composed of an aggregate of seven entities that part ways at physical=20 death. A quote such as the following is closer to a Lurianic kabbalistic=20 view than to the "Esoteric Buddhism" that Sinnett wrote of:=20 The Monad emerges from its state of spiritual and intellectual=20 unconsciousness; and gets directly into the plane of Mentality. But there = =3D=0D is no place in the whole universe with a wider margin, or a wider field of = =3D=0D action in its almost endless gradations of perceptive and apperceptive=20 qualities, than this plane, which has in its turn an appropriate smaller=20 plane for every "form", from the "mineral" monad up to the time when=20 that monad blossoms forth by evolution into the DIVINE MONAD. But all=20 the time it is still one and the same Monad, differing only in its=20 incarnations, throughout its ever succeeding cycles of partial or total=20 obscuration of spirit, or the partial or total obscuration of matter-two=20 polar antitheses-as it ascends into the realms of mental spirituality, or=20 descends into the depths of materiality." (Secret Doctrine I:175)=20 The construction of tradition, the bricolage from bits and pieces of such=20 originally distinct historical sources, masks the novelty of Blavatsky's=20 overall conception. Essentially, the theosophical view of the=20 transmigration of souls is not so much Oriental or Platonic, as a typically= =3D=0D =20 nineteenth century construction.=20 Three key ideas run through Blavatsky's description of the chain of=20 rebirth. The first is the fact of Orientalism itself. The frequent referenc= =3D=0D es=20 to India and the East rather than to e.g. Plotinus or Paracelsus are in=20 themselves a phenomenon of the post-Enlightenment era.=20 The second is the placement of reincarnation within the arguably most=20 overarching meta-narrative of the nineteenth century: evolutionism.=20 The third element is the synthesis of these ideas with another meta- narrative of the nineteenth century: the view that humanity is divided=20 into races and peoples with clearly definable properties. A closer look at = =3D=0D the purported ancient wisdom religion shows it to be a mythologization=20 of ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe.=20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~mu= =3D=0D ehleb9 = =20 From amerman@theosophy.net Thu Nov 21 01:30:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 09:30:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 34586 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 09:30:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 09:30:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 09:30:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 79984 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 09:31:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Wes) (66.75.65.8) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 09:31:36 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.75.65.8 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 04:31:36(EST) on November 21, 2002 X-HELO-From: Wes X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.75.65.8 Message-ID: <000a01c29140$e8470c60$08414b42@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: RE: Let's Check the Mahatma Letters: Step 1 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:32:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Wes Amerman" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=59086689 Brian, You write: With what statement from the Mahatma Letters are you comparing the opinion of a modern geneticist, whose theory you yourself state awaits better evidence that "might be more helpful?" What does this have to do with the Mahatma Letters? Absolutely nothing. If this is "step 1," I won't bother to read the rest of them. You've already "drifted" into the realm of complete non sequiturs. Best Regards, Wes From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 04:16:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 12:16:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 26278 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 12:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 12:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 12:16:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 12:16:38 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:16:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Let's Check the Mahatma Letters: Step 1 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000a01c29140$e8470c60$08414b42@socal.rr.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2769 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Oke then you show where it is ANYWHERE confirmed by 2002 genetics=20 ot modern science that: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the=20 fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs=20 to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, Chinamen and their off- shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc.,=20 etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth and the=20 seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded=20 semblances of humanity." (Letter No. 23b )=20 An also: SD 2.162 "the inferior Races, of which there are still some analogues=20 left- as the Australians (now fast dying out)"=20 SD 2.195 "Of such semi-animal creatures, the sole remnants known to=20 Ethnology were the Tasmanians, a portion of the Australians and a=20 mountain tribe in China"=20 SD 2.196 "such semi-human stocks- e.g., the wild men of Borneo, the=20 Veddhas of Ceylon, classed by Prof. Flower among Aryans (!), most of=20 the remaining Australians, Bushmen, Negritos, Andaman Islanders, etc."=20 SD 2.328 "some of the Australian tribes are the last remnants of the last=20 descendants of the Third Race."=20 SD 2.318 "The Australians and their like are the descendants of those,=20 who, instead of vivifying the spark dropped into them by the "Flames,"=20 extinguished it by long generations of bestiality.=20 SD 2.328 "Behold," writes a MASTER, "the relics of that once great=20 nation (Lemuria of the Third Race) in some of the flat-headed aborigines=20 of your Australia" ("Esoteric Buddhism," p. 65)=20 SD 2.332 "As the Tasmanians are now completely extinct, and the=20 Australians rapidly dying out, so will the other old races soon follow.=20 SD 2.661 "the flat-headed Australian natives - the lowest now in the=20 human races"=20 =20=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wes Amerman" wrote: > Brian, >=20 > You write: >=20 > other language genes yet to be found might be more helpful in > deciding when language was acquired. "This is the only test of my > theory, in the genome," Dr. Klein said. > >=20 > say as a confirmation or non-confirmation Mahatma Letter content > versus results of today's genetic research ?> >=20 >=20 > With what statement from the Mahatma Letters are you comparing=20 the opinion > of a modern geneticist, whose theory you yourself state awaits better > evidence that "might be more helpful?" What does this have to do=20 with the > Mahatma Letters? Absolutely nothing. If this is "step 1," I won't=20 bother > to read the rest of them. You've already "drifted" into the realm of > complete non sequiturs. >=20 > Best Regards, > Wes From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Thu Nov 21 05:07:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 13:07:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 62110 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 13:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 13:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 13:07:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 13:07:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:07:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART III Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 10154 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? PART III by H H Tridandi Sannyasi Bhakti Ananda Goswami Maharaja Shiksha (instructing) Master, Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya lineage of Vaishnavism TAKING A REAL-WORLD HISTORICAL APPROACH TO THE CONTENT OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE AND SUGGESTIONS FOR AN INITIAL VAISHNAVA, PURE LAND BUDDHIST, AND SHIVA-SHAKTI AGAMIC AND TANTRIC REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE, THE "MAHATMA LETTERS", AS COMPILED BY BARKER, AND AVAILABLE TO SEARCH ONLINE FROM THE THEOSOPHICAL UNIVERSITY PRESS An Historical Approach Whether or not God or gods exist, their worship certainly does, and such worship can be studied rigorously in an interdisciplinary way in history, the same as any other real-world phenomenon. In the same way, the innovation and diffusion of Theosophy can be studied. Thoughts, theistic, atheistic and agnostic etc., and the symbols, words and actions which express them have history. While people of equal intelligence and integrity may dispute the existance of God, gods, or the Theosophical Masters, the existence of religion and theosophy is not debated. It is easier to trace the course through time and territory of the popular exoteric 'Great Religions' than it is to trace the innovations and diffusions of the elitist esoteric traditions. Never the less, the esoteric traditions have real-world history too, and with some additional effort, much can be learned about these as well. Paul Johnson has noted the sui generis problem (see below). The historical approach to the study of a religion (or 'spirituality', I might add), is often experienced as threatening by faithful. From: "kpauljohnson" Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:33 am Subject: Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs ..."Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment of the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God; Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas." BA G : In fact, that "...self-honesty about the history of ideas.",is exactly what the system of sampradaya or parampara and GURU,SHASTRA and SADHU (GSS)is all about in the authentic teaching lineages of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shakti-ism, Buddhism and Catholicism etc. These exoteric traditions all attempt to preserve their sacred heritage, by systems of initiation and apostolic succession. For example, one cannot just claim to be a Madhvite or Ramanujite Vaishnava master, any more than one could claim to be a Coptic Catholic bishop without the authority of the Coptic rite Patriarch. No one can serve as a bishop in the Roman Rite Catholic Church, without the proper elevation of the Pope. No one can just claim to be the next Dalai Lama or Patriarch of any of the Vaishnava, Shaivite, Shankarite Advaitan, Hasidic Jewish, traditional Sufi or Catholic Rite lineages. All of these 'apostolic' traditions zealously guard their teaching authority, which preserves the guru, shastra and sadhu history of their ideas and practices. The real- world checks and balances system of guru (living teacher in union with the magisterium), shastra (scripture, canonical body of writings) and sadhu (the tradition of the saints, mystics, theologians and commentators), provides exoteric religions with a way to try to safe-guard the historical integrity and continuity of their traditions. Thus the legitimate lineages of Vaishnavsim, Shaivism and Buddhism etc. are extremely strict about properly identifying their history of ideas and practices. No one can speak from the Vyasasana 'ex cathedra' without proper lineage credentials. In practice, this means that I can trace certain ideas in my specific lineage back thousands of years, because each generation has identified its accepted sources, heroes and associations with those of previous generations. I can also trace some of the major and minor branching-out of ideas and practices from the main 'trunk' of my lineage, and identify some groups that are proximately or remotely related to my own today. Because there is such a high value placed on such parampara or sampradaya lineage affiliations in the main Indic traditions, studying these has enormous value for an historian of religion. It is because of this "...self honesty of the history..." of their ideas, that India and Tibet etc, have any recorded history to be studied at all. It has been said that Indians wrote no history of India. However, this cannot be said if one is considering the histories of the great religious traditions of India, whose vast libraries were full of detailed accounts of the lives and thought of the generations transmitting their sacred traditions. One of the great tragedies of the Muslim invasion of India, was the vast destruction of Indian religious center monastery-university cities and all their libraries. Unfortunately in our time such destruction of temples and libraries is still going on, but this time it is not just fanatical Muslims doing it. The Sinhalese Buddhist 'Aryans' have recently occupied hundreds of Tamil (principally Shaivite and Devi)temples, and have destroyed about a hundred thousand volumes of priceless Tamil literatures in the last ten years. This campaign for the cultural annihilation of the Dravidian Tamils by the so-called 'Aryan' Sinhalese, is one reason that scholars of religion, such as myself, are concerned about the perpetuation of the 'Aryan' race-myth. Despite such barbarism, and in consideration of the amazing amount of information still available from ancient texts, archeology and the intact living GSS traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism, there is ample evidence available for the study of the "Mahatma Letters" in the historical context of their "...complex genealogy..." Suggestions For an Initial Survey of the Literature Because we have the Theosophical University Library Edition of the "Mahatma Letters" in a searchable format online, one way to approach an understanding of the Mahatmas' mastery from the perspective of the Tibetan Buddhist-related Hindu and Buddhist GSS traditions, is to search the Letters for key terms associated with those GSS traditions. Completing such a search can establish the initial evidentiary parameters of our textual investigation. In assessing what the Mahatmas were the masters of, we can learn much from what is NOT INCLUDED IN THE LETTERS. So let us begin with some of these key terms. The Mahatmas claimed an identity-with and love for India, which they significantly DID NOT CALL BHARATA. The use of European terms, instead of the ones like 'Bha_rata", which real ancient Indian Mahatmas would be expected to use, is one of the most striking things to a real master and lover of that ancient land and culture. Here are some of the Sanskrit terms I have already searched in the over 100 "Mahatma Letters", and the results, which are quite revealing. In my search, I used several variant spellings, and the singular and plural forms of the word. However for brevity, only the main search term or name is given with the totals below. Next to the word is the total number of references in the Mahatma Letters, pulled- up by the Theosophical University search program. There seems to be no reflection of Agamic or Dravidian Vedic spirituality in the "Mahatma Letters". Places / States goloka 0 bhuloka 0 bhumi 0 vrindavan 0 bharata 0 kailasa 1 vaikuntha 0 sukhavati 1 loka 8 swarga 0 vyuha 0 Giver (masculine) Deity Names Vaishnava chrishna 2 vishnu 4 hari 0 purusha 4 narayana 0 avatar 3 devadeva 0 surya 2 indra 0 chandra 1 kama 12 vishvakarman 0 brahma 6 deva(s) 21 Shaivite shiva 2 kala 0 hara 0 maruga(n) 0 kartikeya 0 skanda 0 ganesha 0 ganapati 0 Related Receiver (Feminine) Divine Names Vaishnava radha 0 sakti 2 prakriti 3 ganga 0 ma 2 sarasvati 0 lakshmi 0 sri 1 padma 1 narayani 0 tara 0 gayatri 0 tulasi 0 Shaivite kali 1 uma 0 parvati 0 durga 0 maya 16 devi 0 yogamaya 0 The Tradition of Sita-Rama ramayana 0 valmiki 0 tulsidas 0 rama 1 ramachandra 0 sita 0 janaki 0 hanuman 0 ravana 0 Some Shastra Titles, Important Names and Terms vyasa 1 vyasadeva 0 mahabharata 0 veda 1 upanishads 0 agama 0 tantra 0 shastra 1 samhita 0 sutra (s) 3 sama 0 rig 0 yajur 0 ayurveda 0 saddharma pundarika 0 bhagavadgita 0 bhagavat 1 bhagavatam 0 gita 1 jataka 0 hitopedesha 0 pancatantra 0 Mahatmas Identified themselves as Buddhists buddha 18 buddhism 24 buddhist 13 bodhisattva 0 Aryan and Race Term Search arya 1 aryan 9 aryans 4 race 31 races 16 varna 0 dravidian 0 Material Modes of Nature sattva 0 raja 3 tama 0 guna 0 Some Additional Important Terms bhakti 0 kama 12 jnana 0 vidya 4 dharma 0 karma 38 vishva karman 0 Ages and Cycles kalpa 1 yuga (s)1 sattya treta 0 dvarpara 0 kaliyuga 0 Worship and Sacrifice Related terms mantra 0 japa 0 puja 3 pujari 0 purohita 0 murti 0 soma 0 agni 0 yupa 0 nama 0 rupa 9 yoga 4 Some Great Masters Accepted by the Vaishnavas caraka 0 madhva 0 jayatirtha 0 vyasatirtha 0 ramanuja 0 vallabha 0 vishnuswami 0 nimbarka 0 jayadevagoswami 0 caitanya 0 shankara 0 Some Master Titles and Lineage Words acharya 0 goswami 0 alvars 0 sadhu 0 saddhus 1 sampradaya 0 parampara 0 diksha 0 siksha 0 sannyasi 0 Finite and Supreme Spirit Words atma 5 atman 2 jiva 2 jivatma 4 paramatma 0 parabrahmn 6 brahman 1 brahma 6 From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 06:00:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 14:00:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 72304 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 14:00:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 14:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 14:00:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 14:00:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:00:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Needing to be the absolute center of the universe Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6528 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.228 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In 21stCenturyLight@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: Good morning, Last Saturday I attended the second annual reunion of descendants of John Johnson of Bertie County, NC who died in 1861. A week before the reunion I went to the State Archives in Raleigh to do research on the family's origins; the "brick wall" of our knowledge is John's parents Littleton and Nancy. We knew of the extremely prominent Johnston family of 18th century Bertie, which included a colonial governor, a Clerk of Court, a founder of the local Masonic lodge, and other notables, and owned more than 3500 acres. But they left the county before the time of our earliest confirmed Johnson ancestors, whose names sometimes include the t in 19th century records. I solved the mystery the week before the reunion, but in a way that leaves a kinda empty feeling-- which relates to the need to see oneself as central rather than peripheral. What I found was a 1767 deed from Isaiah Johnson of Dobbs County to his son John in Bertie, giving him 200 acres on the south side of Will's Quarter Swamp for the price of one shilling. This is precisely the area where Littleton and descendants owned property, and by various evidence I've established that Isaiah and John are progenitors of our line. But well before the revolution Isaiah, wife Mary, and sons Isaiah Jr. and Elijah had moved on 80 miles to the southwest, where they established a family prominent enough to have an entire local history book written about them in Kinston. All our Bertie Johnsons are descended from a single left behind son (youngest? black sheep?) of a family central to the history of another county. And they were definitely poor Johnsons in the era of rich Johnstons. The sense of deflation this discovery caused had to do with the fact that I've been studying the history of Bertie County for almost two years now, and when the big breakthrough comes it shows we have nothing to do with the prominent colonial Johnstons of Bertie and instead are a forgotten branch of a Kinston area family. (Have made email contact with Isaiah's descendants, none of whom even knew he came from Bertie County.) As this was happening I was finishing a wonderful new book called Mapping Human History: Discovering the Past Through Our Genes by Steve Olson. It presents all the recent exciting advances in genetics as applied to human history (or prehistory) which show that we are all descended from a couple who lived in Africa 100-200 thousand years ago, that race is an illusion, that humans all over the world are very closely related. It also reports some areas of anti-scientific resistance to such research; e.g. Native American tribes who submit to genetic testing for medical purposes only after demanding that the results not be used to study their history. Why? Because their legends tell them that they originated in the lands they now inhabit, and if science traces them back to Africa like all the rest of us, that is Western Imperialistic Science destroying the heritage of Native People. Worse, because on a much larger scale, China is totally resistant to the notion that the Han Chinese originated anywhere other than China. Even though genetic research has definitely shown otherwise, it is still not politically correct in China to question the "accepted fact" that Chinese have always been Chinese. I see in this behavior, and in my disappointment at finding myself on the periphery rather than at the center of Bertie County history, a similar dynamic to what we see with followers of spiritual traditions who cannot stand to see them contextualized historically. Just as the Chinese want to see China at the center of the universe, the Native Americans want to see their individual tribe at the center of the universe, I want my family to be at the center of Bertie County history, religious disciples must place their movement founder (and by extension themselves) at the absolute center of the universe. Thus, Theosophy isn't a nineteenth century mixture of Western esotericism with elements from Indic traditions; it's the eternal truth preserved for millennia secretly hidden from the profane until the time came for the Messenger of the Masters to reveal a portion of it. And so on with whatever movement one adheres to. It must be at the center of the universe, and anyone who places it on the periphery is the enemy. Its centrality is absolute and objective, not relative and subjective. Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about Brigitte, saying in essence that she can only understand her as The Enemy of Truth, the Opposing Force-- not a specific individual with specific motives for specific behavior, but rather an agent of an impersonal force of opposition to eternal truth. This of course places Adelasie's version of truth at the center of the universe, and Brigitte's attacks on it as direct attempts to undermine central, universal truths. But I would propose a relative, rather than absolute, approach to such questions. The Fourth Way teachings talk about a Law of Three. Affirming, Denying and Reconciling, they're called. Any time you strongly affirm something, you evoke a force that will deny it-- and vice versa. Any objective you pursue calls into play obstacles to overcome. This is called Second Force. The only way to go beyond this opposition is by calling into play a third, reconciling force by which we can rise above the seeming opposition. Therefore, Theosophists should see Brigitte's attacks as a manifestation of second force, and understand that their attacks on her look like exactly the same thing from the opposite POV. Theosophists try to affirm things about HPB and her teachings that she denies. She tries to affirm things about her that they deny. No one is at the center of *the* universe; everyone is the center of *an* individual universe. Where does Third Force come into this picture? Damdifino exactly, but a part of it is the "yes, and..." approach. Rather than see opposition to one's ideas as absolute, see it as relative. As something that can refine one's understanding, and redefine it, rather than as something that will destroy it and must therefore be opposed with all one's might. These are my thoughts upon coming back to theos-talk after a year's absence, and seeing the same tug-of-war as before. Paul --- End forwarded message --- From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 08:19:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 10613 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.144] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 16:18:58 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:18:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2003 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.244.94.81 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Those folks who wonder if there really is such a thing as reincarnation will be pleased to know that George Bush, who was governor of Texas before Rick Perry won the recent election and who for reasons not understood seems to be living in the white house at the moment, is planning on giving you a chance to test that theory first hand. Every former oil executive in tbe Bush administration knows that there simply has to be a war for control of the Iraqi oil fields. Listening to public discussions by residents of policy think tanks and ordinary ignoramuses alike it appears that nobody but nobody actually believes that nonsense about "weapons of mass destruction." It is amazing to me that even the stupidest and most ignorant people are not buying the Bush line, let alone the well informed and well educated. I have heard it said that even Ari Fleischer, who has to go on the air with a straight face and pretend that he believes it, is thinking about playing a laugh track during his news conferences. It turns out Iraq is not merely an oil producer, but the second largest in the world. You can see how that presents a "problem" for a bunch of oil executives. Who's next? Well, the administration is refcusing attention from al Qaeda, which controls no oil, to Hezbollah, which is reportedly financed by that other major oil producer - Iran. Never mind that Hezbollah is not attacking us. An effort is being made to make it appear we have to fight for the Likud party. The question is then whether the next "problem" will be discovered in Colombia or Venezuela. Venezuela is the larger oil producer but some observers think Colombia would be a better opportunity for a bunch of oil executives looking for an bullshit excuse to attack. They could discover a "problem." Then can find a "problem," attack Colombia, and then use that as a base from which to attack oil fields in Venezuela. It's getting closer and closer. Mexico is an oil producer, too. From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 08:29:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 16:29:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 35032 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 16:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 16:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 16:29:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 16:28:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:28:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Our doctrine being the only true one" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 741 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson >From the "Mahachohan" letter, presumably the most authoritative of HPB's Masters: "The doctrine we promulgate being the only true one, must, -- supported by such evidence as we are preparing to give become ultimately triumphant as every other truth." There are other such absolute truth claims made by/on behalf of the Theosophical Masters scattered throughout the literature; there are also denials/contradictions of such claims. Bart, I think you're being very win/lose here; don't think BAG is playing the same game but he may not recognize the complexity of the situation. Why not split the difference and both admit that the message is mixed on the subject of authority and truth claims re: the Masters? Third force, Paul From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 09:41:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 17:41:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 63026 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 17:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 17:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 17:41:32 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EvKV-00048M-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:41:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD1989.E240C760@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:36:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Let's Check the Mahatma Letters: Step 1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > > Oke then you show where it is ANYWHERE confirmed by 2002 genetics > ot modern science that: I can show you a number of scientific errors in the Mahatma Letters. Which is proof that they made mistakes, and we should not rely on them as absolute truth. But we all know that already except you, who, for lack of solid evidence, keeps setting up straw man after straw man to knock down. Your public masturbation might otherwise be ignored, but there are people here who are new to Theosophy, and might mistake you for an honest person. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 10:02:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 18:02:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 60332 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 18:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 18:02:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 18:02:20 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Evec-0007XG-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:02:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD1E66.1ED7ECF7@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:56:54 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART III References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 If it weren't for the fact that you have participated in word twisting before, I would have considered this to be an unfortunate placement of words. However, considering your other messages, I believe this this was specifically intended to deceive. Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: > While people of > equal intelligence and integrity may dispute the existance of God, > gods, or the Theosophical Masters, the existence of religion and > theosophy is not debated. This is clearly designed to implant in the minds of newcomers that Theosophists consider the Mahatmas to be gods, in spite of the numerous mentions in the Mahatma letters where they specifically state that they are human, and that they are NOT gods, and that treating them as such is to work against their goals. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 10:19:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 18:19:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 56222 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 18:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 18:19:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 18:19:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EvvY-0001l8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:19:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD227F.63E801FC@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:14:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Needing to be the absolute center of the universe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 kpauljohnson wrote: ...an excellent post, but the parts I want to comment on are: > Thus, Theosophy isn't a nineteenth century mixture of Western > esotericism with elements from Indic traditions; it's the eternal > truth preserved for millennia secretly hidden from the profane until > the time came for the Messenger of the Masters to reveal a portion of > it. And so on with whatever movement one adheres to. It must be at > the center of the universe, and anyone who places it on the periphery > is the enemy. Its centrality is absolute and objective, not relative > and subjective. You are, of course, confusing Theosophy (which is a theoretical construct) with the Theosophical Society (for whom your statement is largely correct). Also, although many who have taken on the subset of Theosophy that the Theosophical Society endorses as a religion, having achieved what George Orwell termed "doublethink", or the ability to have two mutually exclusive ideas in one's head and consider both of them to be absolutely true, many, and I hope most, Theosophists recognize the writings of the Adepts and Blavatsky to be, at most, a useful starting point in a search for true Theosophy (as Blavatsky certainly did, based on her introduction to THE SECRET DOCTRINE). > places Adelasie's version of truth at the center of the universe, and > Brigitte's attacks on it as direct attempts to undermine central, > universal truths. What I don't understand it the enormous amount of energy Brigitte spends in trying to convince Theosophists that Theosophy is invalid, as opposed to trying to find and correct the problems in Theosophy, as you have (which can also be frustrating, but is not fruitless). Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 10:46:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 18:46:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 83863 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 18:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 18:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 18:46:47 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EwLe-0005dE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:46:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD28D0.8BE2C5ED@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:41:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Those folks who wonder if there really is such a thing as > reincarnation will be pleased to know that George Bush, who was > governor of Texas before Rick Perry won the recent election and who > for reasons not understood seems to be living in the white house at > the moment, Perhaps the fact that he was legally elected has something to do with it. Just because you don't like the results of an election does not mean that it was invalid, no matter what Democratic Party officials say. They're just upset because they didn't stuff the ballot boxes enough and weren't allowed to get away with breaking the law. > is planning on giving you a chance to test that theory > first hand. Every former oil executive in tbe Bush administration > knows that there simply has to be a war for control of the Iraqi oil > fields. Making peace with Iraq would help the big oil companies far more than a war would. The oil companies are all against the war; they just want the sanctions lifted. > Listening to public discussions by residents of policy think > tanks and ordinary ignoramuses alike it appears that nobody but > nobody actually believes that nonsense about "weapons of mass > destruction." Strangely enough, those people who scoff at the concept are the same people who were screaming, a few months back, "The government had evidence that 9/11 might happen before the event. Why didn't they DO anything?" Now you know why they didn't do anything. > The question is then whether the next "problem" will be discovered in > Colombia or Venezuela. Venezuela is the larger oil producer but some > observers think Colombia would be a better opportunity for a bunch of > oil executives looking for an bullshit excuse to attack. They could > discover a "problem." Then can find a "problem," attack Colombia, > and then use that as a base from which to attack oil fields in > Venezuela. Colombia and Venezuela do not have the world's foremost experts on biological warfare working for them. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 10:51:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 18:51:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 35687 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 18:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 18:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 18:51:23 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18EwQ7-000475-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:51:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD29E4.F6DBF0B0@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:45:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World "Our doctrine being the only true one" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 kpauljohnson wrote: > There are other such absolute truth claims made by/on behalf of the > Theosophical Masters scattered throughout the literature; there are > also denials/contradictions of such claims. Bart, I think you're > being very win/lose here; don't think BAG is playing the same game > but he may not recognize the complexity of the situation. Why not > split the difference and both admit that the message is mixed on the > subject of authority and truth claims re: the Masters? I am not denying that the Adepts believe that they represent the One True Philosophy(tm) (though even they do not claim to know the whole of it). What I AM denying is the representation that the Mahatma Letters are themselves the One True Philoosphy(tm), or that they all represent it, as is being claimed is a basic belief of Theosophists. There is a VERY important difference. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 11:06:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 19:06:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 9506 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 19:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 19:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 19:06:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 19:06:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:06:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDD28D0.8BE2C5ED@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2008 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.235.152 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Perhaps the fact that he was legally elected has something to do with > it. Well, it is true that he was elected by the Supreme Court and it is also true that the votes of the justices (there are only nine) were fairly counted. I admired Jeb Bush for recusing himself from the process in the interest of government integrity. There are others who should have done the same. > Making peace with Iraq would help the big oil companies far more than a > war would. The oil companies are all against the war; they just want the > sanctions lifted. I hope you are right that that the oil executives who are out of power persuade the oil excecutives who are in. > Strangely enough, those people who scoff at the concept are the same > people who were screaming, a few months back, "The government had > evidence that 9/11 might happen before the event. Why didn't they DO > anything?" Now you know why they didn't do anything. I am missing something somewhere. Thet were unable to sort out the signal from all the noise, but that has happened before, notably at Pearl Harbor. Another problem was that the most vital intelligence was in the hands of domestic law enforcement organizations which were loath to share it. What does that have to do with the impending oil war? > Colombia and Venezuela do not have the world's foremost experts on > biological warfare working for them. Neither did Iraq until we sold them the bio agents which were the basis for their program. All the administration has to do is sell the same agents to those two countries and voila! A new oil "problem." Theat there will be futther oil wars is already apparent. The administration is now telling people to forget about al Qaeda and have an Orwellian Ten Minute Hate toward Hezbollah, which is not attacking us, but which is supposedly controlled by Iran, another oil power. Colobia seems like the most likely staging area for Oil War IV. From adelasie@surfari.net Thu Nov 21 11:16:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 19:16:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 78454 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 19:16:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 19:16:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 19:16:48 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gALJGgAZ023765 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:16:44 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:16:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Needing to be the absolute center of the universe Message-ID: <3DDCC083.19280.2062F97@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Hi Paul, Has it really been a year? Time is flying faster and faster these days. > Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > Brigitte, saying in essence that she can only understand her as The > Enemy of Truth, the Opposing Force-- not a specific individual with > specific motives for specific behavior, but rather an agent of an > impersonal force of opposition to eternal truth. Did I really say all that? I don't know Brigitte at all and probably never will and I would be way off base trying to evaluate her as a person. But I have entertained the disintegrator enough in my own life to be able to recognize the force of divisiveness and destruction when I see it. If Brigitte or anyone else chooses to use such force in their approach to any subject, it is worth noting, if for no other reason than to enlarge our own understanding. After all, if we agree that our work in incarnation is to gain control of ourselves, to make of ourselves more perfect beings (this may not be your goal, and that's fiine, but Theosophists will recognize it as a part of the teachings that they value) then learning to recognize the negative forces is useful. We cannot gain control or something unless we understand what it is. This of course > places Adelasie's version of truth at the center of the universe, and > Brigitte's attacks on it as direct attempts to undermine central, > universal truths. I don't see Truth as something that can be undermined. It simply is. But I also don't see my truth as any more valuble, or "true," than yours, or anyone else's. It works for me, and that's enough. I do, however, think that when we choose to attack what each other holds dear and even sacred, we are playing the old disintegrator game again, and the result is never constructive of anything worthwhile. This force only seeks to destroy. One wonders, what is the motive for this behavior? Of course, only the individual himself can answer that question. But I would propose a relative, rather than > absolute, approach to such questions. The Fourth Way teachings talk > about a Law of Three. Affirming, Denying and Reconciling, they're > called. Any time you strongly affirm something, you evoke a force > that will deny it-- and vice versa. Any objective you pursue calls > into play obstacles to overcome. This is called Second Force. The > only way to go beyond this opposition is by calling into play a third, > reconciling force by which we can rise above the seeming opposition. This seems like a very reasonable analysis of this situation to me. > Therefore, Theosophists should see Brigitte's attacks as a > manifestation of second force, and understand that their attacks on > her look like exactly the same thing from the opposite POV. > Theosophists try to affirm things about HPB and her teachings that she > denies. She tries to affirm things about her that they deny. No one > is at the center of *the* universe; everyone is the center of *an* > individual universe. Yes, Paul, I agree with you. Hard as it is to remain neutral when someone you love and revere is being attacked, it is probably not useful or helpful in the larger picture to enter the fray. On the other hand, we tend to admire those who do wade in and try to defend the victim. There are loyalty to consider, and personal honor, and other fine human qualities. > > Where does Third Force come into this picture? Damdifino exactly, but > a part of it is the "yes, and..." approach. Rather than see > opposition to one's ideas as absolute, see it as relative. As > something that can refine one's understanding, and redefine it, rather > than as something that will destroy it and must therefore be opposed > with all one's might. Yes, it is helpful to regard others as our teachers, especially those who irritate us the most. After all, we would not be irritated if we did not have some sensitivity at exactly the point of attack. It all comes down to self-responsibility. Do I get irate because someone else did or did not do something? Or do I react in a negative way (and get out of control) because I have been hit in a weak point in my own nature, and, realizing this, do I have the grace to accept the lesson life has offered me and profit from it? Best regards, Adelasie From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 11:23:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 6171 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:23:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Our doctrine being the only true one" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1135 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.235.152 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > From the "Mahachohan" letter, presumably the most authoritative of > HPB's Masters: "The doctrine we promulgate being the only true one, > must, -- supported by such evidence as we are preparing to give > become ultimately triumphant as every other truth." In fairness I think we would have to say that the word "completely" is left out and that this is sloppy English. That seems inevitanle since the letters disagree with everyone on some things and agree with everyone on others. It is therefore absurd for them to say that Adwaita Vedanta, for example, is completely false and that their system, which agrees with the AV in some ways, is at the same time completely true. Let me therefore suggest te following reading: > "The doctrine we promulgate being the only [completely] true one, > must, -- supported by such evidence as we are preparing to give > become ultimately triumphant as every other truth." There is also another problem inasmuch as "such evidence as we are preparing to give" does not validate or vindicate the entire system. From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 21 11:34:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 19:34:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 21013 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 19:34:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 19:34:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 19:34:37 -0000 Received: from pool0204.cvx30-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.140.204] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Ex5u-0000bN-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:34:35 -0800 To: Subject: RE: MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:30:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 21 2002 Re: MAHATMA LETTERS Dear Friends: In regard to the letters from the Mahatmas. (Barker or Philippines edn.) Are they concocted? If so why? Some attribute them to H P B. And what would be the need for any "concoctions?" Are the contents inconsistent with the universal philosophy of all life, as a continuous affair ? Have you considered their contents and compared them with other recorded theosophical principles and doctrines? Have you ever considered the tremendous amount of work H P B did in the 16 year spread of the work-time she devoted to the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY and to Theosophy between 1875 and 1891 -- and this includes travel time and illnesses. I think it is important to realize how much was done by a single individual in so short a time. Is even a fraction of such possible to us, or to a very learned scholar ? >From ISIS UNVEILED to her last article MY BOOKS there is a chain of coherency and of directness that few can show in their writings. The philosophy of Theosophy is consistent from one end to the other with the ancient philosophies of India, China, Egypt, Greece, Chaldea, Tibet, etc... Their universality alone ought to attract notice. We should also note that one can take any item of original Theosophical literature, compare and consider it with the rest and with the MAHATMA LETTERS, think about them, meditate about them, and see how the information they convey fits into your understanding of Theosophy as a philosophy, and in to the over-all philosophical world. It is very important for all of us to secure a good understanding of what Theosophy teaches. This gives us a basis for considering other concepts, if we desire to use Theosophy as a kind of "touchstone." There is the matter of the claim that Theosophy is a condensed expression of the ancient history of the Universe, our Earth, and human development. ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE provide us with this history, and of course this is supplemented by her articles -- there has been published a 15 volume series of these titled Blavatsky THE COLLECTED WORKS. [ These contribute her writings to THEOSOPHIST, PATH and LUCIFER and to a number of other journals like LE LOTUS BLEU and LA REVUE THEOSOPHIQUE.] This is important as modern hypotheses differ substantially from the Theosophical -- essentially because the moderns who evolve those theories have only physical evidence to use. [Another series has been proposed: the collection into a couple of volumes of H P B's many letters -- to friends, family, and to students and officials .] There is another value to those MAHATMA LETTERS : the personal development of individuals close to the center of the Movement As they show us some of the underlying conditions and personal situations that were current in the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT during the period from 1880 to 1886. We are further led to see the operation of the occult and Karmic forces on those who come close to the dynamic center of the Movement. Consider that those individuals had the inestimable "good" Karma to come into very close contact with the dynamic center of the effort to reanimate a knowledge of the past which had almost become extinct -- and to spread it to a far wider audience than before. What did they do? And then after thinking about that, let us consider our own opportunity, and the efforts that might be expected of those students who come into contact with Theosophy and have a natural interest in it. What are they (we) doing to help -- but more largely, for all of us who follow those original students, how can we help the future of those who might contact Theosophy due to our efforts. Let us add, that there is no question but we will reincarnate, and then we will meet the results of whatever effort we have put into maintaining the continuity of these doctrines in this our present incarnation. We represent the 2nd, 3rd, and now the 4th generation of students since the time of H P B. What is our responsibility? Apart from our growing wiser, is it not to see that as many as possible hear of Theosophy. Are we helping in this ? The MAHATMA LETTERS serve a still further purpose: They offer as examples -- the opportunities that were offered in those early years, and how personal choices were made by various individuals according to their natures. We ought to note that those choices still affect us today. In this there is a lesson to consider carefully. Do some of the events and reactions parallel how we feel? Best wishes, Dallas ====================== -----Original Message----- From: St Le Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:02 PM To: Subject: Re: MAHATMA LETTERS -- CONCOCTED OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Hello Group- I have never been sure of the purpose for which the Mahatma letters have been written and publishing them seems to have only clouded so many individuals relationship to Theosophy. To me they stand in the way of taking to heart the duty of the Heart Doctrine. The Mahatmas will always be, as the higher self of each, never approachable through letters or through others. Jesus said that all must go through him to the father. As long as we take that statement as concretely as the church would have it we shall be empowering others and their words but never getting any closer to that in each of us or the Mahatmas. The Christos in man (each man) must be that which we endeavor to activate, realize, empower (how ever one will say or think it) before that or them are in our lives. And if, through discussing anything about the Mahatmas( Letters, or what ever) we are not attempting to realize the meaning of the truths they put before us through whatever means, then what are we doing? cut From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 21 11:34:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 19:34:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 57114 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 19:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 19:34:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 19:34:48 -0000 Received: from pool0204.cvx30-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.140.204] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Ex66-0000bN-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:34:47 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:30:57 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 21 2002 Re: Original publishing of the MAHATMA LETTERS Dear Friends: Let me clear up this matter for future accuracy, by narrating a conversation that took place between me and an individual Mr. t. Barker consulted before he issued the first edition. The history of the publication of the Barker edition of the MAHATMA LETTERS was given to me by one of the participants in that early discussion (1925-6) back in the 1940s. . It was published in 1926 by T. FISHER UNWIN LTD. I have a copy of the first edition. As some errors were found in this, several new printings that included corrections were made over several years time [with the errata clearly marked] and as these were issued. they were called either "Impressions" or "Editions." The latest copy I have was published by RIDER AND COMPANY, London. it is the 1948 edition (8th. impression). Rider and Company began their series of reprints in 1930 after the original 1926 book had gone out-of-print. Barker had asked the person in question (in 1923) if they thought it suitable to publish them. He had prepared the book from the original letters held in trust by Sinnett's Trustee, [they were then placed for safe-keeping at the British Museum]. The answer he received was "No." Barker published them anyway. Later Barker met the answerer in London and asked if he still maintained the same opinion. My narrator said he had answered: "No, you should not have published them. But I am happy that you did." My informant was Mr. B. P. Wadia. I was living at the time in his home "Aryasangha" in Bombay. Barker apparently was not interested in the profits to be derived from the sale of the book but was more interested in seeing that an important part of Theosophical history was preserved and made available to a wider audience. Dallas TenBroeck. ========================== -----Original Message----- From: Bhakti Ananda Goswami [mailto:bhakti.eohn@verizon.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:30 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World REPEATING LIES? MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE FROM BA G Dear theosophists, The MAHATMA LETTERS used by the Theosophical Society as below are in the edition of a. Trevor Barker in question. if you say that his claim for their authority was to sell a book, haven't you impeached the credibility of your own witness, primary source work, and the mahatmas themselves ? ***************** BART L. WROTE: A) Barker was trying to sell a book. He was giving his own personal opinion, NOT speaking for any Theosophical Society. B) The Mahatmas THEMSELVES write not to accept the writings simply because it came from them. Therefore, to accept them on the basis of their authority is to go against their authority. ***************** THIS LAST STATEMENT IS ABSURD. THERE COMES A POINT WHEN SOPHISTICATED WORD-JUGGLERY FAILS, AND ONE MUST FACE THE FACTS, AND STOP TRYING TO WRANGLE SENSE OUT OF NONSENSE. THE MAHATMA LETTERS OF A.T. BARKER, A PRIMARY THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY SOURCE-WORK... The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett Theosophical University Press Edition --------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents NOTE: Files of each letter are named according to the letter number assigned by A. T. Barker in his first and second editions, given in Arabic numerals, as in ml-#.htm. To go to a particular letter, change the last section of the current URL from ml-con.htm to the file name reflecting the number of the letter. For example, to go to Letter 5, type ml-5.htm; for letter 24b, type ml-24b.htm, etc. For a description of the contents of each letter, see the detailed contents below. Individual letters are linked both numerically, according to Barker's numbering system, and chronologically according to the order given in Margaret Conger's Combined Chronology for the Mahatma and Blavatsky Letters to A. P. Sinnett, with both the next and the previous Mahatma and Blavatsky letter. The Letters not placed chronologically are: 33, 97, 108, 123, 145, and Views of the Chohan on the TS. Compiler's Prefaces Introduction by A. Trevor Barker Foreword to Combined Chronology of Margaret Conger by Grace F. Knoche Preface and Introduction to the Combined Chronology by Margaret Conger Biographical Sketches and Bibliography by Margaret Conger How the Mahatma Letters Were Written by A. Trevor Barker Mars and Mercury by A. Trevor Barker First Letter of K. H. to A. O. Hume View of the Chohan on the T. S. Homepage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Detailed Contents of The Mahatma Letters Quick Links to description of Sections Section 1 -- Occult World Series Section 2 -- Philosophical and Theoretical Teachings 1881-1883 Section 3 -- Probation and Chelaship Section 4 -- The Phoenix Venture and the Condition of India Section 5 -- The London Lodge of The Theosophical Society Section 6 -- Spiritualism and Phenomena Section 7 -- Miscellaneous Letters Appendix From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 12:06:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 20:06:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 71551 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 20:06:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 20:06:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 20:06:55 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ExbC-0007Op-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD3B91.C89209BA@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:01:21 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Perhaps the fact that he was legally elected has something to do > with > > it. > > Well, it is true that he was elected by the Supreme Court and it is > also true that the votes of the justices (there are only nine) were > fairly counted. I admired Jeb Bush for recusing himself from the > process in the interest of government integrity. There are others > who should have done the same. The popular votes were counted. Bush won. The votes were recounted. Bush won. The popular votes were recounted a third time. Bush won. The nationally mandated deadline was looming, and, if Florida didn't choose electors within a couple of days, Florida wouldn't have any electors. The Supreme Court decided that three recounts were enough, and that there was not sufficient time for a 4th. When newspapers, using the Freedom of Information Act, recounted the votes themselves, Bush won. The only way that Bush could have lost is to take all the ballots where people voted for more than one candidate, and assume that they were all for Al Gore. All three conservatives, all three swings, and one liberal on the SCOTUS overruled the SCOFLA; the 5-4 vote was that there was not sufficient time to do another recount. The Chief Justice of the SCOFLA, well-known to be a liberal, stated that the SCOFLA was illegally creating ex post facto laws from the bench. > > Strangely enough, those people who scoff at the concept are the same > > people who were screaming, a few months back, "The government had > > evidence that 9/11 might happen before the event. Why didn't they DO > > anything?" Now you know why they didn't do anything. > > I am missing something somewhere. Thet were unable to sort out the > signal from all the noise, but that has happened before, notably at > Pearl Harbor. Another problem was that the most vital intelligence > was in the hands of domestic law enforcement organizations which were > loath to share it. What does that have to do with the impending oil > war? It is an attempt to stop terrorist activity BEFORE it takes place. During the Afghan action, virtually every military analyst stated that the next biggest danger was Iraq. > > Colombia and Venezuela do not have the world's foremost experts on > > biological warfare working for them. > > Neither did Iraq until we sold them the bio agents which were the > basis for their program. All the administration has to do is sell > the same agents to those two countries and voila! A new > oil "problem." There are accusations, but not evidence that the U.S. sold the bio agents to Iraq. Of course, there is a secondary question. Let's say I am wrong, and you are right. A good chunk of the world's oil supply is in the hands of a man who claims to hate the United States (although I personally believe that he is in favor of whatever will keep him in power, and against anything that might take him out of power). The United States is heavily dependent on foreign oil, largely because of movements in the United States heavily funded by oil money (such as the anti-nuclear power movement). Is it wrong for the United States to protect itself against blackmail? Bart Lidofsky Bart From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 13:34:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 56562 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Third force Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDCC083.19280.2062F97@localhost> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2022 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., "adelasie" wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Has it really been a year? Time is flying faster and faster these > days. It was cold weather last time I was here, but not quite a year. Still, seems like a full circle when the first freeze arrives. snip > part of the teachings that they value) then learning to recognize the negative forces is useful. True, and there's no question that B's approach to Theosophy is negative. But that wasn't nearly so much the case when I first encountered her online several years ago, so to some extent it is an outgrowth of negative encounters with Theosophists in the meantime. > But I also don't see my truth as any more valuble, or "true," than > yours, or anyone else's. It works for me, and that's enough. I do, > however, think that when we choose to attack what each other holds > dear and even sacred, we are playing the old disintegrator game > again, and the result is never constructive of anything worthwhile. Wonder what motivates people to put energy into trying to persuade those least susceptible to persuasion. It does seem like beating one's head against a brick wall. This time I intend to focus only on those with whom there's some possibility of constructive discourse and not communicate with or about the rest. snip > useful or helpful in the larger picture to enter the fray. On the > other hand, we tend to admire those who do wade in and try to defend the victim. But of course there is always the danger that in trying to defend a perceived victim we get involved in a vicious cycle of victimizing the perceived victimizer, etc. > comes down to self-responsibility. Do I get irate because someone > else did or did not do something? Or do I react in a negative way > (and get out of control) because I have been hit in a weak point in > my own nature, and, realizing this, do I have the grace to accept the lesson life has offered me and profit from it? > Ta da! Regards and respect, Paul From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 21 16:03:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 00:03:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 62577 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 00:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 00:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 00:03:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.18.28ab80e5 (17377) for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:03:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18.28ab80e5.2b0ece49@cs.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:03:21 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World "Our doctrine being the only true one" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hmmm, The Pralaya="the Great Reconcilation?" John From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 21 16:44:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 00:44:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 71028 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 00:44:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 00:44:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 00:44:15 -0000 Received: from pool0209.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.209] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18F1vR-0001m0-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:44:06 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: The THINKER -- REALITY and MAYA-ILLUSION Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:40:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 21 2002 Re: REALITY and MAYA-ILLUSION Dear Friends: Perhaps a few words from H P B's The SECRET DOCTRINE might help. It will at least give the view that Theosophy uses. The commentaries on the stanzas from the BOOK OF DZYAN (WISDOM) begin on p. 35 The first deals with beginnings. ------------------- The "Parent Space" is the eternal, ever present cause of all -- the incomprehensible DEITY, whose "invisible robes" are the mystic root of all matter, and of the Universe. Space is the one eternal thing that we can most easily imagine, immovable in its abstraction and uninfluenced by either the presence or absence in it of an objective Universe. It is without dimension, in every sense, and self-existent. Spirit is the first differentiation from THAT, the causeless cause of both Spirit and Matter. It is, as taught in the esoteric catechism, neither limitless void, nor conditioned fulness, but both. It was and ever will be. (See Proem pp. 2 et seq.) [ SECRET DOCTRINE I 35] In the Theos. Glossary we find the following: Spirit. The lack of any mutual agreement between writers in the use of this word has resulted in dire confusion. It is commonly made synonymous with soul; and the lexicographers countenance the usage. In Theosophical teachings. the term "Spirit" is applied solely to that which belongs directly to Universal Consciousness, and which is its homogeneous and unadulterated emanation. Thus, the higher Mind in Man or his Ego (Manas) is, when linked indissolubly with Buddhi, a spirit; while the term "Soul", human or even animal (the lower Manas acting in animals as instinct), is applied only to Kâma-Manas, and qualified as the living soul. This is nephesh, in Hebrew, the "breath of life". Spirit is formless and immaterial, being, when individualised, of the highest spiritual substance-Suddasatwa, the divine essence, of which the body of the manifesting highest Dhyanis are formed. Therefore, the Theosophists reject the appellation " Spirits" for those phantoms which appear in the phenomenal manifestations of the Spiritualists, and call them "shells", and various other names. (See "Sukshma Sarira".) Spirit, in short, is no entity in the sense of having form ; for, as Buddhist philosophy has it, where there is a form, there is a cause for pain and suffering. But each individual spirit-this individuality lasting only throughout the manvantaric life-cycle-may be described as a centre of consciousness, a self-sentient and self-conscious centre; a state, not a conditioned individual. This is why there is such a wealth of words in Sanskrit to express the different States of Being, Beings and Entities, each appellation showing the philosophical difference, the plane to which such unit belongs, and the degree of its spirituality or materiality. Unfortunately these terms are almost untranslatable into our Western tongues." [ THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY 216-7 ] Thus, the "Robes" stand for the noumenon of undifferentiated Cosmic Matter. It is not matter as we know it, but the spiritual essence of matter, and is co-eternal and even one with Space in its abstract sense. Root-nature is also the source of the subtile invisible properties in visible matter. It is the Soul, so to say, of the ONE infinite Spirit. The Hindus call it Mulaprakriti [root-matter], and say that it is the primordial substance, which is the basis of the Upadhi or vehicle of every phenomenon, whether physical, mental or psychic. In the Theos. Glossary p. 218 we find: Műlaprakriti (Sk.). The Parabrahmic root, the abstract deific feminine principle-undifferentiated substance. Akâsa. Literally, "the root of Nature" (Prakriti) or Matter. It is the source from which Akasa [the "subtle, supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades all space...in which lies inherent the eternal Ideation of the Universe in the ever-changing aspects on the planes of matter and objectivity, and from which radiates the First Logos, or expressed thought " radiates. Akasa is defined in the T. Glossary, p. 13 as: -- [Akâsa (Sk.). The subtle, supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades all space; the primordial substance erroneously identified with Ether. But it is to Ether what Spirit is to Matter, or Atma to Kâma-rupa. It is, in fact, the Universal Space in which lies inherent the eternal Ideation of the Universe in its ever-changing aspects on the planes of matter and objectivity, and from which radiates the First Logos, or expressed thought. This is why it is stated in the Puranas that Akâsa has but one attribute, namely sound, for sound is but the translated symbol of Logos-" Speech" in its mystic sense. In the same sacrifice (the Jyotishtoma Agnishtoma) it is called the "God Akâsa". In these sacrificial mysteries Akâsa is the all-directing 'and omnipotent Deva who plays the part of Sadasya, the superintendent over the magical effects of the religious performance, and it had its own appointed Hotri (priest) in days of old, who took its name. The Akâsa is the indispensable agent of every Krityâ (magical performance) religious or profane. The expression "to stir up the Brahmâ", means to stir up the power which lies latent at the bottom of every magical operation, Vedic sacrifices being in fact nothing if not ceremonial magic. This power is the Akâsa-in another aspect, Kundalini-occult electricity, the alkahest of the alchemists in one sense, or the universal solvent, the same anima mundi on the higher plane as the astral light is on the lower. "At the moment of the sacrifice the priest becomes imbued with the spirit of Brahmâ, is, for the time being, Brahmâ himself". (Isis Unveiled). The Seven Eternities meant are the seven periods, or a period answering in its duration to the seven periods, of a Manvantara, and extending throughout a Maha-Kalpa or the "Great Age" -- 100 years of Brahma -- making a total of 311,040,000,000,000 of years; each year of Brahma being composed of 360 "days," and of the same number of "nights" of Brahma (reckoning by the Chandrayana or lunar year); and a "Day of Brahma" consisting of 4,320,000,000 of mortal years. [ see S D II pp. 68 - 70] These "Eternities" belong to the most secret calculations, in which, in order to arrive at the true total, every figure must be 7x (7 to the power of x); x varying according to the nature of the cycle in the subjective or real world; and every figure or number relating to, or representing all the different cycles from the greatest to the smallest -- in the objective or unreal world -- must necessarily be multiples of seven..... -------------------- We can now pass on to the consideration of TIME: H P B writes in the S D [ p. 37 ] (a) Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist where no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced; but "lies asleep." The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal duration which we call the future, from that part which we call the past. Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change -- or the same -- for the billionth part of a second; and the sensation we have of the actuality of the division of "time" known as the present, comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses, of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past. In the same way we experience a sensation of duration in the case of the instantaneous electric spark, by reason of the blurred and continuing impression on the retina. The real person or thing does not consist solely of what is seen at any particular moment, but is composed of the sum of all its various and changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its disappearance from the earth. It is these "sum-totals" that exist from eternity in the "future," and pass by degrees through matter, to exist for eternity in the "past." No one could say that a bar of metal dropped into the sea came into existence as it left the air, and ceased to exist as it entered the water, and that the bar itself consisted only of that cross-section thereof which at any given moment coincided with the mathematical plane that separates, and, at the same time, joins, the atmosphere and the ocean. Even so of persons and things, which, dropping out of the to-be into the has-been, out of the future into the past -- present momentarily to our senses a cross-section, as it were, of their total selves, as they pass through time and space (as matter) on their way from one eternity to another: and these two constitute that "duration" in which alone anything has true existence, were our senses but able to cognize it there. --------------------------- H P B then defines "Mind" (a) Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness grouped under Thought, Will, and Feeling. During deep sleep, ideation ceases on the physical plane, and memory is in abeyance; thus for the time-being "Mind is not," because the organ, through which the Ego manifests ideation and memory on the material plane, has temporarily ceased to function. A noumenon can become a phenomenon on any plane of existence only by manifesting on that plane through an appropriate basis or vehicle; and during the long night of rest called Pralaya, when all the existences are dissolved, the "UNIVERSAL MIND" remains as a permanent possibility of mental action, or as that abstract absolute thought, of which mind is the concrete relative manifestation. The AH-HI (Dhyan-Chohans) are the collective hosts of spiritual beings -- the Angelic Hosts of Christianity, the Elohim and "Messengers" of the Jews -- who are the vehicle for the manifestation of the divine or universal thought and will. They are the Intelligent Forces that give to and enact in Nature her "laws," while themselves acting according to laws imposed upon them in a similar manner by still higher Powers; but they are not "the personifications" of the powers of Nature, as erroneously thought. This hierarchy of spiritual Beings, through which the Universal Mind comes into action, is like an army -- a "Host," truly -- by means of which the fighting power of a nation manifests itself, and which is composed of army corps, divisions, brigades, regiments, and so forth, each with its separate individuality or life, and its limited freedom of action and limited responsibilities; each contained in a larger individuality, to which its own interests are subservient, and each containing lesser individualities in itself. ---------------------------- H P B then considers MAYA or Illusion Maya or illusion is an element which enters into all finite things, for everything that exists has only a relative, not an absolute, reality, since the appearance which the hidden noumenon assumes for any observer depends upon his power of cognition. To the untrained eye of the savage, a painting is at first an unmeaning confusion of streaks and daubs of color, while an educated eye sees instantly a face or a landscape. ] Nothing is permanent except the one hidden absolute existence which contains in itself the noumena of all realities. The existences belonging to every plane of being, up to the highest Dhyan-Chohans, are, in degree, of the nature of shadows cast by a magic lantern on a colourless screen; but all things are relatively real, for the cogniser is also a reflection, and the things cognised are therefore as real to him as himself. Whatever reality things possess must be looked for in them before or after they have passed like a flash through the material world; but we cannot cognise any such existence directly, so long as we have sense-instruments which bring only material existence into the field of our consciousness. Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but only when we shall have reached the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by Maya. ------------------------------------- We could then consider the next teaching in the S D : "Darkness is Father-Mother: light their son," says an old Eastern proverb. Light is inconceivable except as coming from some source which is the cause of it; and as, in the instance of primordial light, that source is unknown, though as strongly demanded by reason and logic, therefore it is called "Darkness" by us, from an intellectual point of view. As to borrowed or secondary light, whatever its source, it can be but of a temporary mayavic character. Darkness, then, is the eternal matrix in which the sources of light appear and disappear. Nothing is added to darkness to make of it light, or to light to make it darkness, on this our plane. They are interchangeable, and scientifically light is but a mode of darkness and vice versa. Yet both are phenomena of the same noumenon -- which is absolute darkness to the scientific mind, and but a gray twilight to the perception of the average mystic, though to that of the spiritual eye of the Initiate it is absolute light. How far we discern the light that shines in darkness depends upon our powers of vision. What is light to us is darkness to certain insects, and the eye of the clairvoyant sees illumination where the normal eye perceives only blackness. When the whole universe was plunged in sleep -- had returned to its one primordial element -- there was neither centre of luminosity, nor eye to perceive light, and darkness necessarily filled the boundless all. ------------------------------ It would seem these are primary ideas that ought to be kept in mind as we study The SECRET DOCTRINE. These lie at the root of the SCIENCE of Nature study. It shows us how intricate and "different" are the concepts of "maya" or "illusion" from our average daily thoughts and concepts about it. In the Theos. Glossary (p. 210) H P B says Mâyâ (Sk.). Illusion ; the cosmic power which renders phenomenal existence and the perceptions thereof possible. In Hindu philosophy that alone which is changeless and eternal is called reality ; all that which is subject to change through decay and differentiation and which has therefore a beginning and an end is regarded as mâyâ-illusion. ---------------------------- Interestingly enough, I was just reading through H P B's article OLD PHILOSOPHERS AND MODERN CRITICS. [ H P B Articles , Vol. I, p. 14 ] She there traces these great ancient ideas as they entered ancient Greek though, starting with Pythagoras and Plato. It is very interesting reading if one desires to see how the sequence of transmission of Theosophical ideas has worked down the ages from them to the neo-Platonists and down to the Florentine renaissance under Pico della Mirandola, and others. Best wishes, Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: Jon Kn Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:15 PM To: Subject: Re: The THINKER All: I am poking my head out from under my rock to add a comment to your current discussion. My name is Jon Kn, and I've been lurking on this list for a couple of years now, and I read your posts when I can. Forgive me; I mean no disrespect by lurking. Jerry, I agree with what you are saying about ignorance, and about our ability to KNOW the difference between reality and maya. Knowing that there is a difference is as far as we can go mentally. The more we read and study, and reflect, the more we find our world-view flawed. So we replace it with an updated world-view, which we later discover to be flawed as well. So we replace it again. This continues until we finally realize that we cannot fully conceptualize the all-that-is and that what we can conceptualize is maya. Most of us (on lists like this) will then continue to read and reflect, because that's just what we do. And it can lead to mystical experience. We should continue to study and revise our world-view, because the mayavic world is real to us. We live here. We do need to deal with maya in our day to day lives, but we now know that it is maya. We also now know that the truth is not found in any book. The truth cannot be put into words. The books serve as guides. We now know that the truth cannot be known, but that it can be felt in our hearts. And there can be a different kind of knowing. This is jnana yoga. This is the path of gnosis. This is the second object of the Theosophical Society. There is much that can be known, but it is ever-flawed. There is a knowledge horizon which we can push out, but never cross. We can always understand more, but never all. Cliché: The more that I know, the more I realize how much I do not know. The knowing itself is not really important. What is important is how we use the knowledge in our day to day mayavic lives. Understanding how our knowledge can be used for the benefit of the world is wisdom. When we act with wisdom, Karma is relieved. Just had to throw my .02 in, and now I'll probably crawl back under my rock. Jon K. From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Nov 21 16:44:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 00:44:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 7008 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 00:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 00:44:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 00:44:54 -0000 Received: from 1cust166.tnt34.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.28.166] helo=u7k5a4) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18F1wB-0001NM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:44:51 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c291c0$f2c2db80$a61ce043@u7k5a4> To: References: <6b.25ef074.2b0b73b8@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:57:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Of course, this is all over my head, but I did read something recently that may be relevant, -or not? Dennis ********************************** BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Mirror matter mystery Wednesday, 13 November, 2002, 14:40 GMT Mirror matter mystery By Dr David Whitehouse BBC News Online science editor Two Australian scientists believe they have found evidence of a parallel universe of strange matter within our own Solar System. Dr Robert Foot and Dr Saibal Mitra, of the University of Melbourne, report that close-up observations of the asteroid Eros by the Near-Shoemaker probe indicate it has been splattered by so-called "mirror matter". Mirror matter is not anti-matter, it is altogether weirder. It is somehow a "reflection" of normal matter, a sort of parallel series of particles required to restore the balance of the Universe. Sounds far-fetched - some believe so. However, experiments are underway to confirm or deny the existence of this strange, potentially significant but as yet undetected component of the cosmos. Cosmic balance Mirror matter is a hypothetical form of matter that restores nature's flawed left-right symmetry. Laws of nature, such as the rules that govern the interactions of fundamental particles, show a high degree of symmetry except that some laws are not the same when reflected in a hypothetical mirror. Blue dirt: Pools of dust may be impact sites This means that elementary particles display a preference for left over right. In a way, the Universe is left-handed. Why? Nobody knows. Many physicists are happy with this idea believing that in the first instants of the Big Bang everything was perfectly symmetrical. Only when the cosmos cooled did it become asymmetric, with a difference emerging between left and right. But some scientists do not accept this. They maintain that the Universe has a left-right balance because there exists "mirror matter" - for every known particle there is a mirror particle that restores the cosmic balance. Dark matter Mirror matter would produce its own light but we would not be able to see it because mirror matter only interacts with our matter via gravity. Dr Robert Foot believes that mirror matter would have been made in abundance in the Big Bang and that it is all around us but we can't see it. Mirror man Dr Robert Foot "There could be mirror matter stars, planets and galaxies out there," he told BBC News Online. "In fact, some think that the unseen so-called "dark matter" of the Universe could actually be mirror matter," he adds. "Mirror matter is perfect to explain dark matter. It's dark and can only be detected through its gravity." Dr Foot believes he has found evidence that it is here, closer than we believed, and that it had had a measurable effect on our spaceprobes. Mysterious force In October 2000, the Near-Shoemaker spacecraft lightly touched down on the 3-by-13-by-33-km (8 by 8 by 20 miles) Eros asteroid. It was the first time a probe had landed on an asteroid. Its close scrutiny of Eros revealed many strange features - such as flat-bottomed craters filled with a peculiar bluish dust, and a puzzling lack of small craters. Unexplained by conventional understanding, Dr Foot believes that mirror matter provides an answer. He calculates that small objects containing mirror matter could have struck the asteroid and left behind precisely the same scars that are seen. Indeed, he says there is no other credible explanation. He also calculates that mirror matter may explain the mysterious force that acts on both the Pioneer 10 and 11 deep spaceprobes. Distant probes Launched in 1972, the Pioneers are leaving the Solar System in opposite directions. Detailed analysis of their trajectory indicates that they are both subject to a tiny, unexplained force that is slowing them down. Dr Foot believes that mirror matter exerting a drag on the Pioneers could be to blame. Mysterious force: Pioneer 10 "How else can you explain that both Pioneers, on opposite ends of the Solar System, experience the same force pushing in the same direction?" Dr Foot asks. In a research paper to be published shortly, Drs Foot and Mitra suggest that mirror matter may even have struck the Earth. He singles out three possible events: the 1908 Tunguska impact in Siberia and low-altitude, low-velocity fireballs seen in Spain in 1994 and in Jordan in 2001. "Mirror matter could also explain these events," he told BBC News Online. Future experiments Many scientists dismiss mirror matter as wild speculation but even the sceptics will have cause for thought if the latest experiments from the European Centre for Nuclear Research (Cern) are to be believed. Experiments involving so-called ortho-positronium - an arrangement in which an electron orbits a positron (its antimatter equivalent) - show that it decays slightly faster than can be explained. This could be due, says Dr Foot, to the electrons changing fleetingly into mirror matter and then back again. Experiments at Cern and in Moscow hope to determine in the next year or so if mirror matter really does exist. See also: 26 Sep 01 | Science/Nature Asteroid's mystery 'blue ponds' 30 Jul 02 | Science/Nature Antimatter mystery deepens 06 May 99 | Science/Nature Matter or antimatter, that is the question ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:00 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon > > In a message dated 11/16/02 5:01:28 AM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: > > > > >Leon you say: > > > >"All causal relationships between fields should be > >determined by analogy and correspondence - since all > >fields are interdependently originated from a common > >non-local zero-point center and are "in coadunition > >but not in consubstantiality."" > > > >Could you please elaborate on your definition of a > >field? > > > >Cheers, mic > > With respect to my ABC theory, such "coadunate but not consubstantial fields" > are electrically coenergetic spherical hyperspace regions, like bubbles > within bubbles within bubbles, etc. -- that are analogous in their various > stages or levels of substantiality or frequency/energy phase (or "order") to > the scientific "field" of the lowest order 3-dimensional physical, "metric" > or observed space, which is defined as follows: > > "A region of space characterized by a physical property, such as > gravitational or electromagnetic force or fluid pressure, having a > determinable value at every point in the region" (American Heritage > Dictionary) > > Such coenergetic hyperspace "fields" are identical to the seven fold (or > more) involved "fields of action," "planes," or "states of consciousness" > described by HPB in the SD. For a visualization of the involution of such > fields, see the symbolic cross sectional energy flow diagrams at: > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht ml > > LHM > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 21 16:57:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 00:57:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 66629 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 00:57:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 00:57:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 00:57:26 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.26.3158adf2 (17377) for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:57:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <26.3158adf2.2b0edaed@cs.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:57:17 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Dallas, As always, thank so much for your sharing. The personal direct experience of your life is a Treasury of Light which you share without reservation giving insight and knowledge of Theosophy in first person from your long dedicated selfless service to Mankind. I for one place the highest value on your constancy and consider it a distinct honor and rare privilege to have found this list so that I might have exposure to your unique storehouse and elder wisdom offered to those of us who are younger and less wise in years and travel. Earlier in a post someone posted the three words associated with the Mahatma "kin-t-an Na Lan da Dha ra ni", now Nalanda was an epitaph of the Buddha meaning "Insatiable in giving," so I see in you this spiritual principle in action for the last three years I have been member of this list. Your deportment, calm, quiet perseverance and giving is surely recognized by many on this list besides me. Thanks you so much for the many knowledge's only you could state from your direct personal contacts and experience. John From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 17:11:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 01:11:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 14257 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 01:11:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 01:11:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 01:11:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 01:11:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:11:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDD3B91.C89209BA@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2108 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.156.78.205 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > The popular votes were counted. Bush won. Bush did not win the popular vote but the eldctoral cote, and he only won that because 65,000 blacks in Florida were selectively disenfranchised. Regardless of who was right or wrong or how you feel about Bush personally, the process was not an edifying one. > There are accusations, but not evidence that the U.S. sold the bio > agents to Iraq. The accusations have been made by US government agencies. > A good chunk of the world's oil supply is in the hands of a > man who claims to hate the United States If you are talking about Saddam, it is a safe bet that he is not Jesus Christ and therefore does not love mortal enemies. It is also a safe bet that he does not believe in such a practice, and that is the main reason he is still alive. > Is it wrong for the United States to protect itself against > blackmail? The existence of foreign countries means (1) there are people in the world who automatically hate you as a matter pf perceived patriotic duty, and (2) schemes are being funded for undermining your welfare. That is indeed a problem and has been since the beginning of the nation state or even the city state. That is most regrettable. Far be it from me to deny or minimize the problem. Nonetheless, I am not comfortable with a policy of perpetual warfare, especially when personal self enrichment and not national interest is very likely the underlying motive. They are already preparing us for another war in Iran if the war in Iraq goes well, and then it appears South America will be next. Only oil producing regions are on the hit list. Where will it end? You are probably old enough to remember that the Soviet Union was far more powerful than any of these new enemies and was dealt with very effectively with a century long shadow war fought by secret agents and special forces. When we turned the soldiers loose, as in Korea and Vietnam, an otherwise well functioning war went awry. Anyway, we will surely see how this new policy works. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 17:19:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 01:19:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 34472 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 01:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 01:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 01:19:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 01:19:47 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:19:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000401c291c0$f2c2db80$a61ce043@u7k5a4> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7867 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.156.78.205 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Dennis Kier" wrote: > Of course, this is all over my head, but I did read something recently > that may be relevant, -or not? > > Dennis I think whoever wrote this article may be pulling your leg. > ********************************** > BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Mirror matter mystery > > Wednesday, 13 November, 2002, 14:40 GMT > Mirror matter mystery > > By Dr David Whitehouse > BBC News Online science editor > > > Two Australian scientists believe they have found evidence of a > parallel universe of strange matter within our own Solar System. Dr > Robert Foot and Dr Saibal Mitra, of the University of Melbourne, > report that close-up observations of the asteroid Eros by the > Near-Shoemaker > probe indicate it has been splattered by so-called "mirror > matter". Mirror matter is not anti-matter, it is altogether weirder. > It is somehow a "reflection" of normal matter, a sort of parallel > series of particles required to restore the balance of the Universe. > Sounds far-fetched - some believe so. However, experiments are > underway to confirm or deny the existence of this strange, potentially > significant but as yet undetected component of the cosmos. > Cosmic balance > Mirror matter is a hypothetical form of matter that restores > nature's flawed left-right symmetry. Laws of nature, such as the > rules that govern the interactions of fundamental particles, show a > high degree of symmetry except that some laws are not the same when > reflected in a hypothetical mirror. > > Blue dirt: Pools of dust may be impact sites This > means that elementary particles display a preference for left over > right. In a way, the Universe is left-handed. Why? Nobody knows. Many > physicists are happy with this idea believing that in the first > instants of the Big Bang everything was perfectly symmetrical. Only > when the cosmos cooled did it become asymmetric, with a difference > emerging between left and right. But some scientists do not accept > this. They maintain that the Universe has a left-right balance > because there exists "mirror matter" - for every known particle there > is a mirror particle that restores the cosmic balance. > Dark matter > Mirror matter would produce its own light but we would not be > able to see it because mirror matter only interacts with our matter > via gravity. Dr Robert Foot believes that mirror matter would have > been made in abundance in the Big Bang and that it is all around us > but we can't see it. > > Mirror man Dr Robert Foot > > "There could be mirror matter stars, planets and galaxies out > there," he told BBC News Online. "In fact, some think that the > unseen so-called "dark matter" of the Universe could actually be > mirror matter," he adds. "Mirror matter is perfect to explain dark > matter. It's dark and can only be detected through its gravity." Dr > Foot believes he has found evidence that it is here, closer than we > believed, and that it had had a measurable effect on our spaceprobes. > > Mysterious force > In October 2000, the Near-Shoemaker spacecraft lightly touched > down on the 3-by-13-by-33-km (8 by 8 by 20 miles) Eros asteroid. It > was the first time a probe had landed on an asteroid. Its close > scrutiny of Eros revealed many strange features - such as > flat-bottomed craters filled with a peculiar bluish dust, and a > puzzling lack of small craters. Unexplained by conventional > understanding, Dr Foot believes that mirror matter provides an > answer. > He calculates that small objects containing mirror matter could > have struck the asteroid and left behind precisely the same scars > that are seen. Indeed, he says there is no other credible > explanation. He also calculates that mirror matter may explain the > mysterious force that acts on both the Pioneer 10 and 11 deep > spaceprobes. > > Distant probes > > Launched in 1972, the Pioneers are leaving the Solar System in > opposite directions. Detailed analysis of their trajectory indicates > that they are both subject to a tiny, unexplained force that is > slowing them down. Dr Foot believes that mirror matter exerting a drag > on the Pioneers could > be to blame. > > Mysterious force: Pioneer 10 > > "How else can you explain that both Pioneers, on opposite ends > of the Solar System, experience the same force pushing in the same > direction?" Dr Foot asks. In a research paper to be published > shortly, Drs Foot and Mitra suggest that mirror matter may even have > struck the Earth. He singles out three possible events: the 1908 > Tunguska impact in Siberia and low-altitude, low-velocity fireballs > seen in Spain in 1994 and in Jordan in 2001. "Mirror matter could > also explain these events," he told BBC News Online. > > Future experiments > > Many scientists dismiss mirror matter as wild speculation but > even the sceptics will have cause for thought if the latest > experiments from the European Centre for Nuclear Research (Cern) are > to be believed. Experiments involving so-called ortho-positronium - an > arrangement in which an electron orbits a positron (its antimatter > equivalent) - show that it decays slightly faster than can be > explained. This could be due, says Dr Foot, to the electrons changing > fleetingly into mirror matter and then back again. Experiments at > Cern and in Moscow hope to determine in the next year or so if mirror > matter really does exist. See also: > > 26 Sep 01 | Science/Nature > Asteroid's mystery 'blue ponds' > > 30 Jul 02 | Science/Nature > Antimatter mystery deepens > > 06 May 99 | Science/Nature > Matter or antimatter, that is the question > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:00 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon > > > > > > In a message dated 11/16/02 5:01:28 AM, micforster@y... writes: > > > > > > > >Leon you say: > > > > > >"All causal relationships between fields should be > > >determined by analogy and correspondence - since all > > >fields are interdependently originated from a common > > >non-local zero-point center and are "in coadunition > > >but not in consubstantiality."" > > > > > >Could you please elaborate on your definition of a > > >field? > > > > > >Cheers, mic > > > > With respect to my ABC theory, such "coadunate but not > consubstantial fields" > > are electrically coenergetic spherical hyperspace regions, like > bubbles > > within bubbles within bubbles, etc. -- that are analogous in their > various > > stages or levels of substantiality or frequency/energy phase (or > "order") to > > the scientific "field" of the lowest order 3-dimensional physical, > "metric" > > or observed space, which is defined as follows: > > > > "A region of space characterized by a physical property, such as > > gravitational or electromagnetic force or fluid pressure, having a > > determinable value at every point in the region" (American Heritage > > Dictionary) > > > > Such coenergetic hyperspace "fields" are identical to the seven fold > (or > > more) involved "fields of action," "planes," or "states of > consciousness" > > described by HPB in the SD. For a visualization of the involution > of such > > fields, see the symbolic cross sectional energy flow diagrams at: > > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht > ml > > > > LHM > > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 21 17:31:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 01:31:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 18123 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 01:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 01:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 01:31:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18F2fS-0006ce-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:31:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDD88F1.7095E862@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:31:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > The popular votes were counted. Bush won. > > Bush did not win the popular vote but the eldctoral cote, and he only > won that because 65,000 blacks in Florida were selectively > disenfranchised. Regardless of who was right or wrong or how you > feel about Bush personally, the process was not an edifying one. I would like to see some evidence that 65,000 blacks in Florida were selectively disenfranchised. There were claims, but when push came to shove (and lawsuits were supposed to be filed), the claims suddenly evaporated. As far as the national popular vote, we do not know for sure who won. The number of uncounted votes (uncounted because they would not have made a difference in the electoral vote, mostly absentee ballots which seemed to skew heavily pro-Bush) was more than twice difference in popular votes between Bush and Gore. In addition, there were a lot of districts where, if there had been an investigation, the Democrats would have lost a lot of popular votes (for example, municipalities where Gore received more votes than there were registered voters), but, once again, because they would not have made a difference in the electoral vote, were allowed to slide. > > There are accusations, but not evidence that the U.S. sold the bio > > agents to Iraq. > > The accusations have been made by US government agencies. But nothing has been proven. > > Is it wrong for the United States to protect itself against > > blackmail? > > The existence of foreign countries means (1) there are people in the > world who automatically hate you as a matter pf perceived patriotic > duty, and (2) schemes are being funded for undermining your welfare. > That is indeed a problem and has been since the beginning of the > nation state or even the city state. That is most regrettable. Far > be it from me to deny or minimize the problem. Nonetheless, I am not > comfortable with a policy of perpetual warfare, especially when > personal self enrichment and not national interest is very likely the > underlying motive. They are already preparing us for another war in > Iran if the war in Iraq goes well, and then it appears South America > will be next. Only oil producing regions are on the hit list. Where > will it end? You are the first person I have heard mention anything about South America being even on the horizon. I'd appreciate a source on this one (and am reasonably sure you have at least one); if it's reliable, it would go a long way towards pulling me more towards your side on this. Bart From bilmer@surfsouth.com Thu Nov 21 18:09:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 02:09:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 32706 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 02:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 02:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta05.durocom.com) (216.53.195.247) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 02:09:37 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.179.35]) by fl-mta05.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021122020936.IVAB24999.fl-mta05@default> for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:09:36 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c291cc$bc7f2400$23b380d8@default> To: References: <3DDD88F1.7095E862@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:13:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Sorry to jump in. My ISP has been on the blink and I have missed the last 24 hours of postings. I see a thread labeled "Does anybody want to die for oil?" and I wonder "Does anybody want to die?" When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with Iraq is a Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty can become even richer and more powerful, we might ask ourselves why the elder Bush stopped the war the first time? What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on Iraq is the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he already has) and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage neighboring countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by Sadaam as more than mere diplomatic appeal. The stand (line in the sand, if you will) has to have teeth to have effect. (At least Sadaam has to think so). Personally, I hope we don't go to war in Iraq. I hope the UN weapons inspectors can verify the elimination/destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. I hope that someday all such weapons will be destroyed (including our own). I wish that hope alone could make the world a better and safer place. Bill From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 18:40:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 02:40:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 8733 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 02:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 02:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 02:40:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 02:40:08 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:40:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001701c291cc$bc7f2400$23b380d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1681 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > Sorry to jump in. My ISP has been on the blink and I have missed the last > 24 hours of postings. I see a thread labeled "Does anybody want to die for > oil?" and I wonder "Does anybody want to die?" > > When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with Iraq is a > Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty can > become even richer and more powerful, we might ask ourselves why the elder > Bush stopped the war the first time? > > What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on Iraq is > the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of > nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he already has) > and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage neighboring > countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by Sadaam as more > than mere diplomatic appeal. The stand (line in the sand, if you will) has > to have teeth to have effect. (At least Sadaam has to think so). > > Personally, I hope we don't go to war in Iraq. I hope the UN weapons > inspectors can verify the elimination/destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass > destruction. I hope that someday all such weapons will be destroyed > (including our own). I wish that hope alone could make the world a better > and safer place. > > Bill Dear Bill, Glad to see you speak up. At least we share the same hope! After hearing Bob Woodward this evening on Fresh Air describe the victory of Powell over the Rumsfeld/Cheney Unilateralist Axis of Evil there does seem to be some room for hope left in the the world. Hopefully, Paul From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 21 19:48:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 03:48:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 20951 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 03:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 03:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 03:48:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.252] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 03:48:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:47:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A question for Paul about Brigitte Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 869 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Paul, in a recent email you wrote: "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about Brigitte . . . " You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since August of this year. Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and Brigitte are actually the same person. But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] it was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next week for any definitive information you can provide. Daniel From micforster@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 20:48:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 04:48:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 52559 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 04:48:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 04:48:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.60) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 04:48:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20021122044808.22346.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.237.242] by web13402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:48:08 PST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:48:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000401c291c0$f2c2db80$a61ce043@u7k5a4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Thanks for that Dennis. Crazy, crazy stuff....though so unexpected? --- Dennis Kier wrote: > Of course, this is all over my head, but I did read > something recently > that may be relevant, -or not? > > Dennis > ********************************** > BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Mirror matter mystery > > Wednesday, 13 November, 2002, 14:40 GMT > Mirror matter mystery > > By Dr David Whitehouse > BBC News Online science editor > > > Two Australian scientists believe they have > found evidence of a > parallel universe of strange matter within our own > Solar System. Dr > Robert Foot and Dr Saibal Mitra, of the University > of Melbourne, > report that close-up observations of the asteroid > Eros by the > Near-Shoemaker > probe indicate it has been splattered by > so-called "mirror > matter". Mirror matter is not anti-matter, it is > altogether weirder. > It is somehow a "reflection" of normal matter, a > sort of parallel > series of particles required to restore the balance > of the Universe. > Sounds far-fetched - some believe so. However, > experiments are > underway to confirm or deny the existence of this > strange, potentially > significant but as yet undetected component of the > cosmos. > Cosmic balance > Mirror matter is a hypothetical form of matter > that restores > nature's flawed left-right symmetry. Laws of > nature, such as the > rules that govern the interactions of fundamental > particles, show a > high degree of symmetry except that some laws are > not the same when > reflected in a hypothetical mirror. > > Blue dirt: Pools of dust may be impact > sites This > means that elementary particles display a preference > for left over > right. In a way, the Universe is left-handed. Why? > Nobody knows. Many > physicists are happy with this idea believing that > in the first > instants of the Big Bang everything was perfectly > symmetrical. Only > when the cosmos cooled did it become asymmetric, > with a difference > emerging between left and right. But some > scientists do not accept > this. They maintain that the Universe has a > left-right balance > because there exists "mirror matter" - for every > known particle there > is a mirror particle that restores the cosmic > balance. > Dark matter > Mirror matter would produce its own light but > we would not be > able to see it because mirror matter only interacts > with our matter > via gravity. Dr Robert Foot believes that mirror > matter would have > been made in abundance in the Big Bang and that it > is all around us > but we can't see it. > > Mirror man Dr Robert Foot > > "There could be mirror matter stars, planets > and galaxies out > there," he told BBC News Online. "In fact, some > think that the > unseen so-called "dark matter" of the Universe > could actually be > mirror matter," he adds. "Mirror matter is perfect > to explain dark > matter. It's dark and can only be detected through > its gravity." Dr > Foot believes he has found evidence that it is here, > closer than we > believed, and that it had had a measurable effect on > our spaceprobes. > > Mysterious force > In October 2000, the Near-Shoemaker spacecraft > lightly touched > down on the 3-by-13-by-33-km (8 by 8 by 20 miles) > Eros asteroid. It > was the first time a probe had landed on an > asteroid. Its close > scrutiny of Eros revealed many strange features - > such as > flat-bottomed craters filled with a peculiar bluish > dust, and a > puzzling lack of small craters. Unexplained by > conventional > understanding, Dr Foot believes that mirror matter > provides an > answer. > He calculates that small objects containing > mirror matter could > have struck the asteroid and left behind precisely > the same scars > that are seen. Indeed, he says there is no other > credible > explanation. He also calculates that mirror matter > may explain the > mysterious force that acts on both the Pioneer 10 > and 11 deep > spaceprobes. > > Distant probes > > Launched in 1972, the Pioneers are leaving the > Solar System in > opposite directions. Detailed analysis of their > trajectory indicates > that they are both subject to a tiny, unexplained > force that is > slowing them down. Dr Foot believes that mirror > matter exerting a drag > on the Pioneers could > be to blame. > > Mysterious force: Pioneer 10 > > "How else can you explain that both Pioneers, > on opposite ends > of the Solar System, experience the same force > pushing in the same > direction?" Dr Foot asks. In a research paper to be > published > shortly, Drs Foot and Mitra suggest that mirror > matter may even have > struck the Earth. He singles out three possible > events: the 1908 > Tunguska impact in Siberia and low-altitude, > low-velocity fireballs > seen in Spain in 1994 and in Jordan in 2001. > "Mirror matter could > also explain these events," he told BBC News Online. > > Future experiments > > Many scientists dismiss mirror matter as wild > speculation but > even the sceptics will have cause for thought if > the latest > experiments from the European Centre for Nuclear > Research (Cern) are > to be believed. Experiments involving so-called > ortho-positronium - an > arrangement in which an electron orbits a positron > (its antimatter > equivalent) - show that it decays slightly faster > than can be > explained. This could be due, says Dr Foot, to the > electrons changing > fleetingly into mirror matter and then back again. > Experiments at > Cern and in Moscow hope to determine in the next > year or so if mirror > matter really does exist. See also: > > 26 Sep 01 | Science/Nature > Asteroid's mystery 'blue ponds' > > 30 Jul 02 | Science/Nature > Antimatter mystery deepens > > 06 May 99 | Science/Nature > Matter or antimatter, that is the question > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:00 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon > > > > > > In a message dated 11/16/02 5:01:28 AM, > micforster@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > > >Leon you say: > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Nov 21 20:54:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 04:54:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 1743 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 04:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 04:54:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 04:54:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 04:54:14 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 04:54:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Exploring the Genealogy of a Thought System. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 43988 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach The doughter of Gaswami mentioned that he currently needs to take a=20 rest to prepare for an very important up coming meetin he has today,=20 but he did complete following new article that I post on his behalf for=20 possible , intelligent and just just polemic as before, feedback: To begin with, the Theosophical Masters have been claimed to possess=20 the highest authority, and H.P. Blavatsky has been asserted as their=20 reliable "absolutely consistent" spokesperson.=20 The Theosophical Masters or Mahatmas, originally Koot Hoomi (K.H.)=20 and Master Morya (M), are considered by Theosophists and numerous=20 New Age groups to be the authors of the over 100 "Mahatha Letters." In these Letters, the Mahatmas have made great claims about=20 their teaching authority. Others have accepted these Masters' claims to=20 teaching authority as valid, and have thus based their entire world-view and life choices on the teachings of these Theosophical (T)=20 Masters.=20=20 For some this has been a life-enriching experience, which has inspired philosophical inquiry, intellectual growth, virtue, altruism, a=20 sense of universal brotherhood and other good things in them. These=20 Theosophists have extracted things from the teachings of the T Masters that reinforced their inherent goodness and encouraged their intellectual growth and moral development and intellectual-affective=20 integration on many levels. Such a positive outcome is no-doubt what=20 H.B. Blavatsky and other of the Theosophical leaders had in mind at the=20 outset of their mission to create a global order devoted to their esoteric = =3D=0D studies.=20 However, some of the central ideas contained in the T=20 Masters' "Mahatma Letters" inspired malevolent, not benevolent people, and through the world-view and life-choices of these=20 ill-motivated people, led to some persistently dangerous global=20 ideologies and tragic outcomes in history. It is a given that the same can = =3D=0D be said regarding some ideas contained in the Vedas, or the Bible etc. = =20 For example, in India, the Vedic and Puranic concept of the sacramental=20 social body (Daiva Varnashram Dharma system) of the self-sacrificed=20 cosmic Purusha (Rig Veda Purusha Sukta Hymn) was corrupted by the=20 conscience-less powerful into the oppressive reincarnation-and-karma=20 doctrine related birth-caste system. As in Protestant Puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the elite birth-caste Brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su karma / good karma. Those=20 powerless persons suffering from poverty etc. were considered=20 unworthy of anything better by virtue of their previous sinfulness and=20 resultant cursed birth / vi-karma or bad karma. Thus this Vedic doctrine=20 of varna interpreted by non racist people of benevolent good-will could=20 result in a just and peaceful, progressive unifying social order. However=20 the same doctrine could result in oppression and birth-class slavery=20 when interpreted by racist persons of ill-will. In the same way the Christian mission to go out and save people may be the inspiration for=20 either altruistic, benevolent and socially unifying acts that build non-sectarian human community, or the gospel mission may be=20 misinterpreted as a mandate to forcibly "convert" humanity in colonial=20 and muslim jihadi-like campaigns.=20 Historical Denial Does Not Serve the Best Interest of Humanity=20 It does not serve the best interest of humanity to ignore the historical relationship between the ideal of the Vedic Varnashram=20 Dharma system doctrine and the horrific pathological reality of the birth- caste system. It does not help humanity to ignore the historical reality of= =3D=0D =20 therelationship between the doctrine of Christian mission and its=20 perverted manifestation, the doctrine of Euro-American global=20 conquest. In the same way, it is not in the best interest of humanity to=20 ignore or totry to cover-up / obscure the historical relationship of certai= =3D=0D n Theosophical ideas to colonial 'white" Aryan racism, later nazi=20 aryosophism,and the diffusion of these ideas into various other socially=20 pathological, racist and scientistic movements. Ideas have history, and=20 even the best of ideas are misunderstood and abused or corrupted over=20 time and distance as they diffuse through various existing thought- systems and languages. Time and circumstance modify ideas. Even=20 when an attempt is made to protect an idea from modification by=20 doctrinalizing it, varying perspectives allow for doctrines to be=20 interpreted in different ways. Thus a non racist and a racist reading the Purusha Sukta will see different doctrines in it. A doctrine or creed (credo=3DShraddha), like=20 beauty can exist "in the eye of the beholder," as well as codified in=20 documents. As a result, persons of good-will and those of ill-will can seem to profess the same creed, but the content of the creed, the meaning of the words is not the same for them. The document is the same, the=20 difference being in their perspective.=20 Syncrestic Buddhism in the Mahatma Letters...The Masters Reject the=20 Brahminical Scriptures of Hinduism=20 Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a message from Master Morya.=20 Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th.=20 "It is useless for a member to argue `I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my=20 aspirations are for good' etc. and he, at the same time, building by his=20 acts and deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and=20 us. What have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true Arhats, of esoteric=20 Buddhism and of Sanggyas to do with the SHASTERS and Orthodox=20 Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and=20 Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE=20 PATH OF ERROR, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even=20 hear of us. THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS=20 OF THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and=20 now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if = =3D=0D they want us. Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a Nastika=20 as they call us? None."=20 BA G: In this quote, the "Shasters" (Shastras, Holy Sanskrit scriptures) of India are rejected, and the teachings of the T Masters and=20 HPB are clearly identified with Theravadin (Southern or atheistic)=20 Buddhism, centered in Sri Lanka, which was driven out of India during=20 and subsequent to the reign of the Mahayana Buddhist emperor Asoka.=20 Asoka's own Buddhist Master had an Ashram in Mathura, the ancient=20 capital and educational university "Vatican City" of Royal Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, which the pure land tradition of Mahayana=20 Buddhism is closely related to. The form of Buddhism "driven away"=20 from India was that of Sri Lankan related Theravadin Buddhism.=20 The TS teachings continually merge contradictory Mahayana and=20 Theravadin Buddhist doctrines, especially in their combined use of=20 Nepalese-Tibetan with Sri Lankan sources. However, they seem to=20 contain no appreciation of the intimate historical relationship between Vaishnavism and Pure Land Buddhism, as is apparent from all=20 the Sanskrit Buddhist texts, iconography and interdisciplinary evidence in ancient combined Vaishnava and Pure Land Buddhist centers of=20 worship like Vrindavana-Mathura. Instead of correctly associating the Mahayana doctrines, rites, iconography etc. of Nepalese-Tibetan=20 Buddhism with earlier theistic Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, the T S=20 Masters generally ignore the profoundly important Vaishnava link, and=20 instead focus on the "esoteric" deconstruction of other-power salvific Buddhist transcendentalism, and watering-down of the theistic=20 associations with "Hinduism" to re-present N-Tibetan Buddhism as=20 merely a covered form of Theravada.=20 Of course this campaign of Theosophy reinforced the exoteric-theism- versus-esoteric-atheism dichotomy already in N-Tibetan Buddhism.=20 Esoteric Voidism haunts Mahayana Buddhism in the same way that=20 esoteric atheism haunts "Hinduism" in the form of extreme impersonal Advaita Vedanta, and esoteric gnosticism still haunts=20 Christianity in the West. Thus while claiming a love of India and her=20 sacred traditions,in fact, the Theosophists rejected her authentic=20 traditions of salvific transcendental personalism, the dominant exoteric=20 Bhakti traditions of Krishna-Vishnu, Shiva and Devi, to promote a form of=20 exoterically Hinduized but esoteric, covered syncrestic Buddhism. The T=20 Masters were not masters of the corpus of Sanskrit or Southern Indian=20 Dravidian sacred Vishnu, Shiva, Devi and Marugan etc, literatures. They=20 did not teach about the direct relationship between Pure Land Buddhism=20 and Vaishnavism, and they seemed to know little about the great devotional, salvific traditions of either Northern or Southern India. They= =3D=0D presented themselves as the highest authorities on ancient wisdom, but apparently felt that honoring the sources of their wisdom, the "Shasters" that they disdained, was not necessary. Thus they presented=20 their own system of thought, using language and teachings from various=20 shastras without properly representing those texts, or their source, the=20 Supreme Deity of the Vedas and Puranas, Upanishads, Samhitas, temple=20 Archana Vigraha worship, Bhakti hymnology etc.=20 The Eastern teachings of the T Masters are a concoction of doctrines=20 drawn principally from Vaishnava and Buddhist sources, and they claim=20 to be the "highest authority" of this "only true philosophy" on Earth. = =20 Blofeld, in his book on Tantric Mysticism In Tibet argued that the=20 different schools of Buddhism are like different grades. We can see this same general attitude among Theosophists, who also consider the=20 deity visualizations of Tibetan Buddhism to be like a high school level of = =3D=0D Buddhism, while the no nama-rupa (no name-form) practice of Zen=20 Buddhism is considered to be like the PhD program.=20 Theosophy teaches that there are Planetaries (like the astrological=20 planet regents or devas) and ascended Masters or their equivalent of=20 bodhisattvas, but there is no transcendental supreme personality of=20 Godhead, who is the source of such beings. In Theosophy the Dharma=20 Kaya, or ultimate reality is totally impersonal, and personality only exists in a qualified state in the Nirmanya (or Sambhogya) Kaya. So the=20 T S Masters are the highest authorities of the one true philosophy on earth, and clearly teach a Buddhism that rejects the original transcendentalism of the Vaishnava-related Mahayana Tri Kaya (trinity),=20 with its authentic bodhisattva doctrine, in favor of a Sri Lankan and Zen=20 related form of Theravadin Buddhism. Even so, the "absolute nothing"=20 (see Maseo Abe for example) of orthodox Sri Lankan- related=20 Theravadin Buddhism is not authentically and consistently represented=20 throughout the letters of the Mahatmas.=20 Now we have a general idea of the Masters' authority claims, the near nil extent of their Shastric knowledge-base (they reject the shastras) and the primarily syncretistic Buddhist Eastern aspect of their=20 perspective. Their writings are full of thought-forms, language and=20 references which clearly indicate a European higher education, so=20 Theosophical lore takes this into account, through reference to their=20 European education. Others (the Hare brothers etc.) have made textual=20 studies of the Mahatma Letters for internal evidence of their authorship.=20 However, I am not concerned with the Masters classical Western=20 education in this series of comments on the Mahatma letters. I am=20 concerned with whether or not the Letters accurately represent the=20 Eastern traditions that the Masters claim to have mastered, and have so obviously drawn from.=20 The Relationship Between The Masters and H.P.Blavatsky=20 At this point, we come to the question of the claimed relationship=20 between the Masters Koot Hoomi, Morya and Madame H.P. Blavatsky,=20 who was considered their absolutely consistent representative. What=20 authority is claimed for her ? Is she considered as equally infallible as some Theosophists consider the Masters K.H. and M? In the=20 below, it is claimed that Madame Blavatsky was actually an incarnation=20 of Serapis, the Master of K.H. and M themselves!=20 Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002.=20 "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B. ?=20 Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell=20 A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky=20 "From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or=20 Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis (being=20 a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of self-sacrifice."=20 These insights help us to understand more fully the significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky:=20 "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body=20 upon European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . ."=20 BA G: Thus while HPB was playing at being the student of her Masters=20 K.H. and M, Theosophists teach that she was actually their Master. The whole scheme gets quite convoluted, with the cast of T Masters=20 eventually being credited with human progress in general, through their astounding litany of previous incarnations.=20 The Authenticity of the Theosophical Revelation=20 The Mahatma letters are part of the larger body of Theosophical=20 teachings, whose greatest early contributor was Madame HPB / her=20 Masters. There are many claims made about the=20 mystical "precipitation," automatic writing or"channeling" (modern=20 term) of the Masters' teachings through HPB and others. Again I am not as concerned with these issues as I am interested in the use or misuse and misrepresentation of authentic, redacted / corrupted or=20 concocted ancient Eastern source-works. Like Joseph Smith's "miraculous" translation of his invented Egyptian "Book of Mormon" tablets, or works claiming to be based on documents about Jesus found=20 in a Tibetan Lamasery, or the claimed "Essene Gospel" of the bogus=20 modern so-called Essenes, there is a pattern to the emergence and=20 presentation of esoteric and neo-gnostic spurious "ancient" source=20 works. These typically are miraculously produced translations of some hidden,=20 lost or obscure text, inscriptions or other revelation, with built-in deniability when it comes to authentication of the source. There is=20 always some reason why the original source-work cannot be produced.=20 Perhaps it was taken back up to heaven by an angel. Maybe it was=20 destroyed by Catholics, or hidden in the Vatican Library under guard. In any event, the original document must be unavailable so that others=20 can not analyze it for authenticity, and compare the original=20 text's "miraculous translation" for accuracy. In the case of the Mahatma=20 letters, and the "Stanzas of Dyzan," the problem of authenticity has been=20 avoided by claiming that these writings were produced through the=20 spiritualistic mediumship of HPB.=20 Before her career as a Theosophical revelator of ancient Eastern=20 wisdom in India, she was a medium and conjuror in spiritualist s=E9ance and medium circles in America. She was extraordinarily well read, knew several languages, and was a great story teller and prodigious=20 writer who once ran a writing shop, and was expert in just the skills she would need to take dictation from the invisible Masters. Although she seemed to overtly hate Judaism and Christianity, she could also be an outspoken champion for those she considered wronged or oppressed. A=20 complex and brilliant women, HPB commanded respect even from some=20 educated and powerful men, in an age when women were not expected=20 to be the intelligent champions of anything. It should be kept in mind=20 that the social evils that were later to manifest from some of her seeds=20 of thought, were surely not anticipated or desired by her. (I obviously do not accept the idea that she was "Serapis," and thus an all-knowing Master, outside of the normal influences of time.) At some=20 point in her conjuring and minor-league mediumship, she "got religion"=20 so to speak, and embarked on a life-long mission to better the condition=20 of humankind. She was no doubt well motivated, but produced a mixed=20 work that was part genius and part nonsense and trickery. The question is ...why should people bandon the study of authentic ancient religious and philosophical source-works to accept her / the Mahatmas'=20 synthesis / writings as the ultimate authority on the world's hidden mysteries?=20 The Mahatma Letters.=20 [Caps for emphasis in quoted text mine, BA G]=20 "BTW=97even if HPB STOLE HER IDEAS and theories from all the ancient and modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes,=20 Pythagorus, Plato, Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- WHY SEND EVERYONE TO THEM to learn new languages and dig it out for=20 themselves, covering the same tracks that Blavatsky did=97when all of it was so CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY synthesized in the SD (along=20 with other explanatory writings of HPB and associated scriptural=20 confirmations) in the common language that most everyone of a=20 thoughtful mind in the world, today, can understand?"=20 "In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in the "revelations" of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner where intuition and reason=20 are the only Gods worth listening to."=20 BA G: This is the crux of the problem as far as I am concerned. It is a matter of the basic integrity or reliability of the information that has been presented in the Mahatma Letters, and the acknowledged=20 writings of H.P. Blavatsky and the other prominent personalities of the=20 early Theosophical Society and movement. What valuable truth did the=20 Theosophical Masters actually convey? Why should everyone go to the=20 the Masters, instead of to the still extant authentic ancient sources of classical Eastern and Western wisdom? Did the Masters and H.P.=20 Blavatsky always clearly and accurately synthesize and represent=20 important ancient teachings and traditions in her work? Or were there=20 serious omissions, contradictions, and other errors? Were some of their representations of ancient traditions seriously flawed, corrupted by = =3D=0D extreme bias and / or even actually dishonest?=20 Regarding Atheism in the Mahatma Letters...=20 The above current Theosophist's view regarding "the only gods worth listening to," should be compared to the statement below, of Master Koot Hoomi himself.=20 "Mahatma Letter No. 10=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm=20 [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting.=97Ed]=20 Notes by K.H. on a "preliminary Chapter" headed "God" by Hume,=20 intended to preface an exposition of Occult Philosophy (abridged).=20 Received at Simla, 1881-? `82.=20 [Caps for emphasis in the quoted text below are mine, BA G]=20 "NEITHER our philosophy nor ourselves BELIEVE IN A God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G."=20 ... "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and=20 we know there is in our system NO SUCH THING AS GOD, EITHER=20 PERSONAL OR IMPERSONAL. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute=20 immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance=20 based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented to=20 designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either=20 admired or dreaded without understanding them, and SINCE WE CLAIM=20 AND THAT WE ARE ABLE TO PROVE WHAT WE CLAIM=97i.e. the=20 knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain=20 THERE IS NO God OR Gods BEHIND THEM." ...=20 Confusion in the Master Results in Confusion in the Chela.=20 One Theosophical Society leader demonstrated why attention should be=20 paid to understanding Eastern thought and traditions, and individual=20 texts and persons, from reliable, historically authentic sources. He=20 profoundly erred in identifying myself (BA G) with ..."Vedantist and Buddhist sectarian and separatist teachings"....=20 If he had acquired any knowledge about the subject in general from=20 clear and accurate, reliable sources, he never could have confused me=20 with a "Vedantist." If he had any understanding of the various real-world sources and traditions involved, and had read and=20 understood my biographical sketch on the site where his comment was=20 posted, he would not have confused me with "sectarian and separatist teachings." I am a person who has studied deeply in numerous=20 traditions, having a distinguished history of service in non-sectarian=20 interfaith activism. My own teachings are anything but "separatist." As a=20 Shiksha (instructing) Master, in a lineage of Vaishnavism from which=20 some of the Masters' / Blavatsky's teachings have been appropriated, I=20 have some familiarity with the Sanskrit terms they used, as found in the=20 real ancient source works. I also have a clear understanding of the=20 differences between some of the various schools of "Hindu" thought. As=20 a Master in a Bhakti Yoga lineage, it is laughable to hear myself referred = =3D=0D to as a "Vedantist" in such a way.=20 One of my main criticisms of the Theosophical Society teachings is that they misrepresent teachings from genuinely ancient theistic and atheistic sources by appropriating, distorting, re-contexting and misinterpreting them. For instance the Mahatmas' teachings sometimes=20 make use of ideas from Vaishnava traditions, but make no proper=20 reference to the theistic thought-systems from which the ideas have=20 been acquired. Thus the cyclic Yuga (eon / age) rounds of a finite universe, emanations from Godhead and Shakti, days of Brahma and such ideas are presented=20 without their proper context and meaning. For example, in the authentic Vaisnava sources, the world-age Yugas are associated with=20 the Yuga Avataras of Hari, or Krishna-Vishnu (Amitabha-Lokesvara in=20 Pure Land Buddhism) who is the transcendent Deity, and the source of all spiritual and material realms and worlds (Vyuhas and Lokas). However=20 the T S Masters do not properly present the relationship of the Yugas to=20 the transcendental Deity. While there is some emanationism in the Masters' doctrines, it is not presented accurately from either the=20 Vaishnava or Vaishnava-related earliest forms of Pure Land Buddhism.=20 Instead, the saving Deities of other-power Pure Land Buddhism are=20 represented more as dependent-arising products of mind and dualism.=20 Outside of 'visualization', and the highest, subtlest material states, the Deities have no transcendent personal existence in the Dharma Kaya.=20 However, a depth study of Northern Buddhism from India to Japan=20 reveals the DHARMA KAYA is HRIH / HARI, the original PERSON OF THE=20 GODHEAD IN VAISHNAVISM. Thus the Dharma Kaya was not originally a=20 state of Buddhist extinction or non-being.=20 But the T Masters do not represent Buddhist Voidism or Advaita=20 Vedantist impersonalism purely either. Their "Buddhism" seems a strained synthesis of Vaishnava doctrines and the teachings of several different traditions of Buddhism. They try to associate their=20 amalgamated Buddhist teachings with Sri Lankan Theravada, Tibetan=20 and Zen Buddhism, this creates a strange brew when the emanationism=20 of Vaishnavism (without its Divine source) is added to the mix. When=20 time cycles and the days of Brahma etc. are described, the origin of=20 Brahma (Helios Phanes) in the personality of Godhead (Narayana) is not really stressed. In these and many other cases, the Mahatmas do=20 not deliver to their students a "clear and accurate" synthesis of ancient teachings and scriptures. In fact they seem to have had an=20 agenda to edit-out the theistic context and content of the ideas that they used.=20 Thus their product (the Mahatma Letters) appropriates elements from=20 both theistic and atheistic traditions and corrupts these, forming an=20 attempt to harmonize elements of theistic cosmogonic revelation, with=20 modern watered-down Neo-Vedantism and an equally corrupted form of=20 syncretistic Neo-Buddhism. by creating such a non-historical hodge- podge of spuriously 'ancient' doctrines from various mis-used sources, the Theosophical teachers render their chelas incapable of=20 clear, accurate, rational thought involving these matters. A basic=20 knowledge of real Indic traditions would have insured that the author=20 who called me a "vedantist" would not have accused a Vaishnava Bhakti- Yoginof atheistic advaitan teachings by using such a loaded sectarian=20 term.=20 =20 Because the Masters and other T S writers frequently confounded and=20 merged and misrepresented Indic thought and traditions, Theosophists=20 typically have no real grasp of the most basic truths regarding these real-world traditions. Having accepted HPB's "Reader's Digest"-like condensed version and synthesis of the wisdom traditions,=20 they have cheated themselves out of a more direct and authentic=20 experience of the=20 same.=20 Humility is Just Honesty About Oneself...The Pathology of Needing to=20 Concoct, or Following Self-Appointed or Spurious Masters=20 This gets to the personality development and disciplinary aspect of the=20 issue. Why would someone who really wants to understand something,=20 choose not to go to the SOURCE and properly discipline themself in its=20 understanding? Why would a person prefer to speculate about=20 something from the outside, rather than studying it up-close in a=20 scientific, disciplined manner? The problem is that certain kinds of=20 people cannot submit to any real-world authorities and hate to be=20 required to live by rules of conduct and standards of behavior. They=20 don't want to discipline their inquiry into any kind of traditional approach.=20 They don't want to be bothered with the facts that disagree with them,=20 and they don't want to learn anything that requires real discipline=20 or "surrender." Such people will typically make-up their OWN ALTER- EGO AUTHORITIES to validate themselves and / or give themselves=20 credibility with others. Thus they can play at the humility and surrender=20 game, without ever really submitting themselves for instruction to=20 anyone. As a result we see the endless proliferation of "humble=20 servants" and "messengers" of the invisible or conveniently inaccessible=20 Masters, who never really require any surrender on "their" disciple's=20 part. The "disciple' OF THE INVENTED MASTER becomes, as a=20 messenger of their inaccessible Master (s), the REAL GURU / Master of=20 others, who really do desire a real-world flesh-and-blood authority.=20 Thus we can observe the endless innovation and diffusion of new=20 esoteric and occult "spiritualities" based on the sincere surrendered=20 following of some people, who blindly submit to those flesh-and-blood=20 Masters who are themselves only the "servants" of a PROJECTED=20 authority-figure of THEMSELVES. So, the problem is not that HPB and=20 her real-world incarnate friends assembled a syncristic thought-system from a vast number and variety of sources. The problem=20 is that they did not have the honesty about themselves, the humility to=20 admit the genealogy of their ideas. THIS IS THE BASIC PATHOLOGY OF=20 THE LACK OF INTEGRITY IN "SPIRITUAL BUT NOT RELIGIOUS" GROUPS.=20 Organized Religion is Not a Bad Thing...GSS Traditions and the Authentic Preservation and Diffusion of Ideas=20 Meanwhile in the exoteric Great Religions, real-world masters require=20 real-world surrender, discipline (diksha) and sacrifices from their=20 surrendered students, but IN RETURN THEY DELIVER THE AUTHENTIC=20 TEACHINGS OF REALLY ANCIENT AND VENERABLE TRADITIONS. "You=20 get what you pay for" ....in this case either the intellectual and devotional heritage of centuries of exoteric traditions, or the concoctions of modern era "esoteric" cheaters. Authentic ancient traditions still living have exoteric lineages, real examinable ancient=20 scriptures, real ancient histories and preserve the legitimate teachings=20 of their lineages doctrinally. etc. Such traditions are the real guardians = =3D=0D of ancient scriptures and wisdom. It takes a lifetime of disciplined study = =3D=0D to master even a tiny bit of what such traditions have to offer. But, the=20 proud "gnostic" or undisciplined jnani who idolizes their own brain, will not usually be attracted to a life time of study in anything=20 really demanding of them. It is difficult to learn when one thinks that=20 they already know everything, and has an aversion to all kinds of real=20 authority. The proud gnostic concocter would rather be self-educated=20 than to actually plumb the depths of anything through real surrender and disciplined inquiry with an authentic master requiring their respect. =20=20 This is the pathology of the Masters-channeling New Age movement. I=20 have seen channeling groups that are nothing other than mutual- deification societies. Every member is in an unspoken agreement to=20 validate each other's fantacies of cosmic specialness.=20=20 Receiving "messages" from their Masters, or Master Beings, the chelas reinforce their mutual fantacies of previous illustrious incarnations, being angels, aliens, demigods and goddesses etc. Thus=20 they feed on each others' proud dishonesty and manipulativeness.=20 Usually because there really is no other authority than themselves,=20 surrender to these imaginary "Masters" never really requires anything of=20 them.=20 The Scholarly Contributions of Such self-Delude People=20 The result of such a person's scholarly endeavors usually shows their disdain for accountability to real world history and truth, the proper citation of previous authorities and scientific methodology. Such=20 personstypically want so-called "spirituality" without "religion." They want to master science or history or some field without=20 being actually trained in the disciplines of that field. They tend to be=20 masters of everything in their own opinion, but instead they are not the=20 real masters of anything. They tend to be dabblers, who are venerated=20 as masters by gullible people with a poor fund of knowledge. Now, in=20 my opinion, H.P Blavatsky and her friends, were both dabblers and the=20 actual masters of something. Their prodigious efforts and sacrifices did produce something. What they did master is on exhibit for all to see in the Mahatma Letters and other primary Theosophical Society writings. It is not that these writings have no value, but one should approach them as what they are, and not confuse them with what they claim to be, the highest authoritative teaching of the only true philosophy on earth.=20 So What Were the Theosophical Society Masters the Masters Of ?=20 Theosophical Society and Movement Propositions From T S Sources=20 1. The only true philosophy of the Earth, Theosophy identified as=20 Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these Letters are the primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance to Theosophists.=20 2. The Theosophical Masters, authors of the "Mahatma Letters," especially Koot Hoomi, Master Morya and Serapis, are the=20 highest authorities who have revealed themselves to humanity.=20 3. The Master of the Masters Koot Hoomi and Morya, is Serapis.=20 4. H.P. Blavatsky is the rather hidden incarnation of Serapis.=20 5. The brotherhood of Theosophical Masters has reincarnated=20 throughout time, guiding the world (and evolution of the races). Thus all previous revelations, religions and advances in various fields, must be interpreted in the context of their supposed relationship to the T S=20 Masters.=20 6. The priests of dogmatic or doctrinal ORGANIZED RELIGIONS have=20 corrupted their scriptures, so it is better to read the more authentic core of teachings contained in the "Stanzas of Dyzan" and the synthesized teachings of the Mahatmas and HPB. There is no need to=20 learn languages and study the source works themselves, as HPB has=20 provided a clear and accurate synthesis of everything in these that is significant to study.=20 7. Sannyasis and Sadhus etc. are "on the path of error," and Theosophy has nothing to do with the Shastra of Brahminism.=20 8. Koot Hoomi / Theosophy absolutely denies the existence of God or=20 Gods.=20 My additional assertions...=20 9. There is an amalgamation of Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism=20 with Advaita Vedantism and Vaishnava sources in the teachings of=20 Theosophical "Buddhism."=20 10. Madame Blavatsky was a very intellectually gifted and educated=20 person, who was the central figure in the whole development of=20 Theosophy. Whether or not she wrote the Mahatma Letters with the=20 help of corporeal or incorporeal beings, may or may not be of=20 importance in certain kinds of analysis of the letters. The actual content of the letters can be examined in relationship to real-world=20 ancient textual and living traditions, to see if the Mahatmas' presentations are accurate with regard to those thought-systems.=20 Let Us Now Consider Some of the Curious Facts Related to the Specific=20 Mixture of Kashmiri Eastern and Western Esoteric Teachings in the=20 Mahatma Letters.=20 In one letter KH writes to Sinnett:=20 ..."Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the `greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- ..."...=20 Most of the debates that I have seen regarding the T.S. Masters have=20 focused on the Masters' identity, the "precipitation" of their letters, H.P. Blavatsky's or someone else's medium-ship or "channeling" of their thoughts / writings, textual analysis of their letter= =3D=0D s=20 forcontemporary or near-contemporary plagiarized material, stylistic=20 elements, language or other clues to their identity. I do not intend to=20 address any of these things, which have all been chewed before.=20=20 Rather than chewing-the-chewed, like a cow not done with its cud, I=20 want to provide a reading of the Letters from the perspective of a=20 person familiar with some of the source-works and traditions that the=20 Mahatmas used and / or claimed to be representing. Ideas and the=20 words, written and spoken, and images or symbols and actions that=20 convey them, have history. Innovations occur and get diffused. Ideas=20 spark social movements that wax and wane. Thought-forms, like=20 other "things" have certain time-and-space limitations.=20 Communication is sent and received in specific forms and languages.=20=20 Each word or symbol has a content actually intended by its sender, and any number of meanings imposed on it by receivers. Scientifically- minded historians (not historical-fiction writers) want to know what was actually meant by the creators or sender(s) of a document from the=20 past. They want to understand the successive meanings giving to an=20 original or earlier document by later translators and commentators.=20 They want to peel-back the layers of time, and get at the original core of an idea. Such scientifically-minded persons do not want to=20 impose meanings on history, they want to discover the real meanings=20 already there in history. They don't want to "massage the data" to fit into preconceived notions of history, or to support an agenda of=20 some kind.=20 The real lover of truth wants to understand what really happened, who=20 the real players were, and what their motives, means and actions, and=20 the consequences were etc. Such investigators use scientific=20 methodologies and means of inquiry designed to safe-guard the=20 objectivity and integrity of their efforts. They try to avoid errors by rigorously identifying their sources, to be sure of authenticity.=20 In the case of my own studies, from the very beginning I learned of the value of interdisciplinary research from my father (a research=20 electrobiophysicist), who taught me that errors could be avoided and=20 facts established beyond doubt by approaching a subject or question=20 from a multiplicity of disciplines instead of only one. Thus my studies utilized every discipline that I could bring to bear on a particula= =3D=0D r=20 question. This has given me a well-rounded grasp of the main subjects=20 of my historical inquiries.=20 In Theosophical sources, the Master Koot Hoomi (K H) writes about the=20 Tibetans and Penjabi Singhs, Mr. Sinnet says that K H was a native of=20 the Punjab, H.P. Blavatsky says that Koot Hoomi is a Pujabi, and both=20 Blavatsky and others identify K H with Kashmir. Thus, I begin my=20 commentary on the Mahatma Letters with this fact, because I will be=20 focusing quite a bit on the Kashmiri-like syncristic Vaishnava, Buddhist and related content of the Letters. There is a well-established=20 connection between the Sikhs of Kashmir and Theosophy. What people=20 don't realize is that the Sikhs often worship in Vishnu temples,=20 because of their close historical connection to Vaishnavism. Tibetan Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Devi worship, Sufism, Sikhism and all=20 the branches of these traditions have their own real world histories. For=20 example, there is a traditional date for the entrance of Padmasambhava=20 into Tibet, and thus an eighth century AD historical beginning to Tibetan Buddhism. The Advaita Vedantism of Sri Adi Shankaracharya=20 has a history too, as do the successive waves of Ishmali and Sufi=20 Mohammedanism into the Punjab and Kashmir. In the Mahatma Letters=20 there is a curious mix of Atheistic and Theistic Vaishnava, Advaita=20 Vedanta, Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism, Sikh and Sufi=20 reinterpretations of Vaishnava, Shaivite and Devi teachings, and other amalgamations which can be found ESPECIALLY in the region of=20 Kashmir. In the religious melting-pot of Kashmir today for instance,=20 there may be found Vaishnava-influenced Muslim Sufi brahmins who do=20 not eat flesh, Tantric-influenced Sahajiya Vaishnavas, various Sufi- Vaishnava or Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid groups, and Sikhism, which as another Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid religion is of course related to the Vaishnava and Shaivite Kshatriya (warrior class) of the=20 Punjab.=20 =20 Thus the Sikh name "Singh" is important in this connection.=20 Pure Land Buddhism, as originally in Nepal and Tibet, has its historical origins in Vaishnavism, and so is connected to the strange=20 Kashmiri mix in the thread of Vaishnava doctrines and practices running=20 through the whole region. It is from this regional melting-pot of Indic and= =3D=0D Western (Sufi and Gnostic) traditions that the Masters K H and Morya=20 seem to have acquired some of their unorthodox understanding of the=20 Sanskrit Shastras (scriptures) and to have created their hodge-podge of=20 an eastern thought system. Whoever they were, they were masters of=20 something, but what was that something? To assess their competence=20 as masters of eastern traditions, one would need themself to be=20 qualified in such traditions. As an instructing master in the Vedic-based Tradition of Vaishnavism, I am qualified to assess the=20 accuracy of the what the masters have presented from my own=20 tradition. Since the oldest literary traditions in the region are clearly=20 those of the Sanskrit Vedic Vaishnava-related texts, and the Masters=20 refer to some doctrines from these texts, then it is reasonable to assess=20 the Mahatmas' presentation of ideas from these texts to determine their=20 accuracy.=20 The Example of the Rig Veda and Proto-Mahayana Buddhism=20 For example, the Rig Veda is by all estimations very much older than the Advaita Vedantan writings of Adi Sankaracharya, the beginning of=20 Tibetan Buddhism (8th c AD), the Era of Asoka, or even the life of=20 Sakyamuni Buddha Himself. The Purusha Sukta Hymn is considered by=20 many scholars to be among the oldest surviving writings of humanity.=20=20 The Purusha Sukta is found in a collection of Vedic Sanskrit Hymns, the Rig Veda. These hymns glorify God under a variety of Names and=20 Forms, as these forms have appeared from the Cosmic Body of the=20 universal self-sacrificed Purusha, Who is described in the Purusha Sukta.=20 In later corruptions of this monotheistic tradition, the forms of Purusha, are demoted to a mere multiplicity of "gods." Thus polytheism, pantheism etc. eventually obscured the originality and=20 supremacy of Purusha as the transcendent supreme Deity of the Rig=20 Veda. Purusha assumed a cosmic form for self-sacrifice to create,=20 sustain (as sacramental food / Prasadam) and redeem every world /=20 cosmic manifestation. In the Purusha Sukta, and related Vedic texts, it is clearly understood that Purusha is VISHNU. The Purusha Sukta is still=20 chanted today on Vaishnava altars as the Eucharistic PRASADAM=20 offerings are being made. Another one of Vishnu's Vedic names is Asura=20 (from the root meaning "being," "to be, exist"). In the "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism," R. C. Zaehner identifies the=20 cosmic Purusha with the Zoroastrian supreme Deity Ahura Mazda=20 (Ahura=3DAsura).=20 The Jagganatha or Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha is sometimes=20 called his Vishva Rupa or Virata Rupa. This is one of the theophanies of SRI KRISHNA that was revealed to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita, The=20 cosmic form of God in Jewish mysticism is definitely related to the=20 revelation of Sri Krishna in the Gita. The universal Purusha is of course identified with the Purusha AVATARA FORMS OF VISHNU. In the=20 Vedas, Vishnu is called by many names, including Asura and Purusha. It=20 is Vishnu Who is worshiped in multi-form in the Vedic hymns. This is the=20 tradition of the oldest stratum of Vedic so-called "Hinduism," and all of=20 the principle Vedic Nama-Rupa name-forms of Vishnu are found many=20 centuries later in Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan and related=20 Nepalese Buddhism. There the very ancient Vedic names and forms of=20 Vishnu-Purusha AS LOKSHEVARA, are connected to Vaishnava doctrines,=20 rites, practices, sacramental social order etc.. So the foundation of=20 Tibetan Buddhism is in the much earlier worship of Vishnu-Purusha,=20 without any doubt. When the entire socio-religious cultural milieu in=20 which Sakyamuni's Buddhism first developed was Vedic-Vaishnava, how is it reasonable to assume that the pervasive elements of=20 Vaishnavism in Mahayana Buddhism are later, intrusions or corruptions?=20 In fact, Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, uses the very=20 Sanskrit Names of Krishna-Vishnu for the ADI BUDDHA, who is also=20 called ADI PURUSHA, BHAGAVAN, PURUSOTTAMA etc. To claim that a=20 younger tradition (Buddhism) owes nothing to its origins is ridiculous.=20 THIS IS THE SUI GENERIS nonsense of Theravadin Buddhism. The=20 extremely ancient Purusha Sukta related Forms of Lokesvara are those=20 of Vedic Purusha or Vishnu. The same names and forms are there in=20 both the Buddhist and Vaishnava traditions, and this is not peculiar to=20 the Nepalese-Tibetan form of Buddhism either. Everywhere in Pure Land=20 Mahayana Buddhism it is the same. The names, forms, doctrines, rites=20 etc. of the salvific transcendent other-power tradition of Buddhism are closely related to those of Krishna-centric Vaishnavism. When we=20 look at the Sanskrit sources for the Mahatmas' Hindu and Buddhist ideas, again the oldest of these are the Vaishnava and Vaishnava-related scriptures, litanies and prayers. For those accustomed to thinking of=20 Sanskrit literatures in terms of some generic hinduism, no such thing=20 existed in the ancient world. Scriptures were the testimony of specific traditions, such as the sattvic Vaishnava or Shaivite or tantric Devi=20 worshiping traditions. In the "CULT OF TARA" by S. Beyer, the original Sanskrit texts for the Tibetan Buddhist rituals of Mother Tara are given. = =3D=0D Any Vaishnava pujari priest would immediately recognize these Sanskrit=20 mantrams, hymns and rites! So, if we are going to seriously consider=20 the claims of the Mahatmas to mastery in Tibetan Buddhism, I want to=20 see evidence in their Letters that they knew of, and understood the close relationship between Tibetan Buddhism, and Vaishnavism.=20 by H.H. Tridandi Sannyasi Bhakti Ananda Goswami Maharaja of the=20 Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Lineage of Vaishnavism. End part 1.=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 21 21:39:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 05:39:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 51856 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 05:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 05:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 05:39:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.12.2914f35f (4328) for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:39:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12.2914f35f.2b0f1d1c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:39:40 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I, for one, am getting tired of all your crap. What makes you think theosophists need you (an obscure historian with a personal hatred of theosophy who may be using this vendetta and these propaganda tactics solely for purposes of attaining personal notoriety) to show them how to "present their teachings to the world"? What hubris. It's almost sickening to what ends you will stoop to prove your negative, prejudicial, and entirely unverifiable OPINIONS about theosophy and its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even superficially) or nothing at all of its actual philosophically or scientifically unassailable metaphysical meanings, purposes, and ends in view. What a joke. Putting up this offer is just like your other propaganda tricks -- since you know, as well as all of us convinced, or even student theosophists, that there is no valid "evidence" (other than first hand experiential reports of credible people) that can "prove" (to each of us, individually) that the Mahatma letters are or are not "authentic," or whether or not the Masters, or "Mahatmas" who wrote them ever existed. In theosophy, we base all our judgments on what is said, rather than who said it. So, whatever your so called "experts" know about Indian civilization and their ancient religions, they can no more verify or deny the letters genuineness, whether of its writers or their message, as they can "prove" their own beliefs... Other than by blabbing the same worthless and prejudicial OPINIONS about them that you have. Since when do exoteric and blind religious beliefs have any weight in proving or disproving anything? The truth or validity of the Masters writings and teachings, whether in the Mahatma letters or in the SD, can only be judged by careful study of their inherent consistency with the fundamental teachings of ancient theosophy -- that neither you nor your pundits can deny with any "evidence" or even by logical arguments based on the same "fundamental principles" that the SD is grounded on... And, which, I'll wager, all Indian philosopher/scientists of any honesty or integrity are in total agreement with. Therefore, I challenge you to come up with any "Indian" (or for that matter any other nationality's) pundits who will be able to deny the teachings of theosophy on unassailably valid scientific, philosophical, or religious grounds. Accordingly, I await your posting of their valid "proofs" or arguments (if any) in letters signed by them -- relating to the non existence of the Masters, and/or the invalidity of the theosophical teachings. What makes you think, after more than 100 years of just such "experts" trying to do so, that they can do so now? Wake up! And, get off our backs with your specious and opinionated, nonsensical harangues and phony, self-serving offers -- which I hope no other theosophists will take up. (Although, I can't speak or be responsible for anyone else but myself.) As a word of caution for the "other" members of "this list"... Theosophists are wise to stay out of arguments about the validity or invalidity of religious beliefs or metaphysics -- which is a total waste of their time and energy. LHM ---------------------------------- In a message dated 11/17/02 2:43:37 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Let's Dallas/Daniel C. Caldwell and any other Theosophists on this list >present there evidence the next few hours on : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > >It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the >world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental >teachings or not. > >Let us just have Daniel C. Caldwell, Dallas/Dalval, Leoanmaurer, or >however believes "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are, >post there and we watch this for a day or two, or and all of us who think >they have found something genuine in The Mahatma Letters post it there >and see what the experts say to that. Anybody is llowed to post there >. Let Daniel C. Caldwell , Dallas, and so on post whatever they want us to >believe on "theos talk" on >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization the next day ore so. >With more then seven hundred (exactly 707) experts in the field of >ancient religions and civilisations on the Indian sub-continent. (Including >Tibetologists and so on) > >And lets see how many of the more then sevenhundred experts there >Daniel C. Caldwell and Dallas or however of those on theos-talk that >believe "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are can get any >of these sevenhundred and more experts there to agree. >Lets Dallas/ Daniel/Leon/ and so on show us they are not just crackpot- >"believers." > > At least with such a large group of specialists in religions , history, and >archeology of the ancient Indian sub-continent (two or three ?) that >would confirm that what Dallas/Daniel and so on want us to (bamboos >into ?) "believing," is true. > >I am looking now, > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > > > Brian > >PS I will place the complete postings as of this moment until in three >days from now appear on the subject of "the content and precipitation >of The Mahatma Letters" (with this very title) on my website in three >days, whatever appears the next three days on this subject. (except of >course those posters who let me know I should not place it on my web >site, otherwise the postings there are public domain, and of course I will >let as soon the matter takes of on >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization place a message there >with my intent so all there know ) From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 21 22:09:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 06:09:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 39942 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 06:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 06:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 06:09:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.155.17bd3813 (4328) for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:09:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <155.17bd3813.2b0f2412@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:09:22 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Adelaise on peace... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Those theosophists interested in actively participating in or working with the Global non violent peace force, check out the following sites: http://www.geonewsletter.org/p-force.htm http://www.nonviolentpeaceforce.org/ In a message dated 11/17/02 6:20:07 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi Adelasie and all of you, > >The world is not only a place where we talk about Peace or War, but we >really talk about >EXISTENCE or non-EXISTENCE. That is where we are today. (Just like M. L. >King said it.) > >It is not so important here wheather King was a Christian. It is important >that we get peace. >With terrorists on this Planet doing all kinds of ugly activities, we have >to ask: > - When is a sizeable nuclear bomb next on the Agenda ? >You see these issues are being discussed in The United Nations, but there >is >not yet any real agreements on how to deal with this issue. >Time is running. > And we have to claim disarmament of nuclear weapons from all countries, >not >only Iraq. >We will have to - as fast as reasonably possible to close all neclear plants >on this globe. >Only if we stick together there will be everlasting peace. > >I know, that Theosophy not really are doing in politics. >But when it is about - Existence or non-Existence - I think Theosophy will >have to make a stance, >- and that loud and clear. These weapons are no good - and the sooner they >are gone the better. > >I think, that the non-violent movement I had in mind in my previous email >would be a movement like the one Martin Luther King Jr. supported, though >probably with some important differences. >* I should and ought to be world wide in its focus. >* It should use a proper suited religous motivated agenda. >* It should or could note and take in to consideration (i.e. only >consideration) especially the principles and also the ideas which the >organization United Religions Initiative are following today. >(URI are here http://www.uri.org/ and http://www.uri.org/resources/, and >is >a interfaith religious body associated to United Nations. There a at least >800 Angelican Bishops supporting it, and both Buddhists and Hindus join >in >as well, now its representing more than 88 religions world wide.) >* It should make marches like the civil rights movement Martin Luther King >Jr. supported. Or even sit-down protests. >* It should have a suitable orator or speaker. >* Its agenda could take from the speeches of Martin Luther King Jr. when >proper and when they have a global focus, which could be supported by people >who wants peace, - so to thereby create agreement on that the leaders of >today. >* Its agenda could take from other great non-violent speeches of the past >decades. >* It should do what a lot of movement s today lacks, - namely it should >relate much better to the TV-journalist around the globe, because they >can >help create peace if they want to. > >But let us also remember, that is not so much the weapons as such, which >are >a problem for humanity. >It is just as important, what kinds of minds - this Planet are fostering >and >breathe - and also what kind of >information kids today are given besides the school-education. (A voilent >picture ?) > >Well, these are just my humble views. >I know the above are not a complet list. >But the genral picture should be there, and can be adjusted if needed to >get >peace in a non-voilent manner while usinng marches or sit-down protests. > >To communicate in small circles is of course a stance Adelaise. But >really...Try to add the above picture ! > >Negativity is always a solution and a stance. >Let the readers feel free to do their best. > > >from >M. Sufilight with patience...and the time running... From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Nov 21 22:22:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 06:22:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 88983 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 06:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 06:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 06:22:53 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id EB6905EEC87 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:22:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002b01c291ee$d49e8e00$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <3DDD88F1.7095E862@sprynet.com> <001701c291cc$bc7f2400$23b380d8@default> Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:17:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Bill and all of you, The idea of peace sounds fine with me. Maybe Christ died for oil ? (Laughs...) from M. Sufilight with a greasy look... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Meredith" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? > Sorry to jump in. My ISP has been on the blink and I have missed the last > 24 hours of postings. I see a thread labeled "Does anybody want to die for > oil?" and I wonder "Does anybody want to die?" > > When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with Iraq is a > Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty can > become even richer and more powerful, we might ask ourselves why the elder > Bush stopped the war the first time? > > What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on Iraq is > the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of > nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he already has) > and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage neighboring > countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by Sadaam as more > than mere diplomatic appeal. The stand (line in the sand, if you will) has > to have teeth to have effect. (At least Sadaam has to think so). > > Personally, I hope we don't go to war in Iraq. I hope the UN weapons > inspectors can verify the elimination/destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass > destruction. I hope that someday all such weapons will be destroyed > (including our own). I wish that hope alone could make the world a better > and safer place. > > Bill > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 00:17:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 11975 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 08:17:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 08:17:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:17:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12.2914f35f.2b0f1d1c@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 49451 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach "OPINIONS about theosophy and=20 its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even superficially)= =3D=0D =20 or nothing at all" Brian: If you know anything at all yourself then start by showing us one=20 by one a scolarly refutation of the few dozen "philosophical" points=20=20 refuting the contents of for example the "Mahatma Letters" below, but=20 do work trough it all the way to the end if you want to be worth your=20 salt, and not just be looked upon by some as a crackpot polemicist: In these Letters, the Mahatmas have made great claims about=20 their teaching authority. Others have accepted these Masters' claims to=20 teaching authority as valid, and have thus based their entire world-view and life choices on the teachings of these Theosophical (T)=20 Masters.=20 For some this has been a life-enriching experience, which has inspired philosophical inquiry, intellectual growth, virtue, altruism, a=20 sense of universal brotherhood and other good things in them. These=20 Theosophists have extracted things from the teachings of the T Masters that reinforced their inherent goodness and encouraged their intellectual growth and moral development and intellectual-affective=20 integration on many levels. Such a positive outcome is no-doubt what=20 H.B. Blavatsky and other of the Theosophical leaders had in mind at the=20 outset of their mission to create a global order devoted to their esoteric = =3D=0D studies.=20 However, some of the central ideas contained in the T=20 Masters' "Mahatma Letters" inspired malevolent, not benevolent people, and through the world-view and life-choices of these=20 ill-motivated people, led to some persistently dangerous global=20 ideologies and tragic outcomes in history. It is a given that the same can = =3D=0D =3D=20 be said regarding some ideas contained in the Vedas, or the Bible etc.=20 For example, in India, the Vedic and Puranic concept of the sacramental=20 social body (Daiva Varnashram Dharma system) of the self-sacrificed=20 cosmic Purusha (Rig Veda Purusha Sukta Hymn) was corrupted by the=20 conscience-less powerful into the oppressive reincarnation-and-karma=20 doctrine related birth-caste system. As in Protestant Puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the elite birth-caste Brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su karma / good karma. Those=20 powerless persons suffering from poverty etc. were considered=20 unworthy of anything better by virtue of their previous sinfulness and=20 resultant cursed birth / vi-karma or bad karma. Thus this Vedic doctrine=20 of varna interpreted by non racist people of benevolent good-will could=20 result in a just and peaceful, progressive unifying social order. However=20 the same doctrine could result in oppression and birth-class slavery=20 when interpreted by racist persons of ill-will. In the same way the Christian mission to go out and save people may be the inspiration for=20 either altruistic, benevolent and socially unifying acts that build non-sectarian human community, or the gospel mission may be=20 misinterpreted as a mandate to forcibly "convert" humanity in colonial=20 and muslim jihadi-like campaigns.=20 Historical Denial Does Not Serve the Best Interest of Humanity=20 It does not serve the best interest of humanity to ignore the historical relationship between the ideal of the Vedic Varnashram=20 Dharma system doctrine and the horrific pathological reality of the birth- caste system. It does not help humanity to ignore the historical reality=20 of=3D=20 therelationship between the doctrine of Christian mission and its=20 perverted manifestation, the doctrine of Euro-American global=20 conquest. In the same way, it is not in the best interest of humanity to=20 ignore or totry to cover-up / obscure the historical relationship of certai= =3D=0D =3D=20 n Theosophical ideas to colonial 'white" Aryan racism, later nazi=20 aryosophism,and the diffusion of these ideas into various other socially=20 pathological, racist and scientistic movements. Ideas have history, and=20 even the best of ideas are misunderstood and abused or corrupted over=20 time and distance as they diffuse through various existing thought- systems and languages. Time and circumstance modify ideas. Even=20 when an attempt is made to protect an idea from modification by=20 doctrinalizing it, varying perspectives allow for doctrines to be=20 interpreted in different ways. Thus a non racist and a racist reading the Purusha Sukta will see different doctrines in it. A doctrine or creed (credo=3DShraddha), like=20 beauty can exist "in the eye of the beholder," as well as codified in=20 documents. As a result, persons of good-will and those of ill-will can seem to profess the same creed, but the content of the creed, the meaning of the words is not the same for them. The document is the same, the=20 difference being in their perspective.=20 Syncrestic Buddhism in the Mahatma Letters...The Masters Reject the=20 Brahminical Scriptures of Hinduism=20 Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a message from Master Morya.=20 Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th.=20 "It is useless for a member to argue `I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my=20 aspirations are for good' etc. and he, at the same time, building by his=20 acts and deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and=20 us. What have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true Arhats, of esoteric=20 Buddhism and of Sanggyas to do with the SHASTERS and Orthodox=20 Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and=20 Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE=20 PATH OF ERROR, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even=20 hear of us. THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS=20 OF THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and=20 now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if = =3D=0D =3D=20 they want us. Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a Nastika=20 as they call us? None."=20 BA G: In this quote, the "Shasters" (Shastras, Holy Sanskrit scriptures) of India are rejected, and the teachings of the T Masters and=20 HPB are clearly identified with Theravadin (Southern or atheistic)=20 Buddhism, centered in Sri Lanka, which was driven out of India during=20 and subsequent to the reign of the Mahayana Buddhist emperor Asoka.=20 Asoka's own Buddhist Master had an Ashram in Mathura, the ancient=20 capital and educational university "Vatican City" of Royal Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, which the pure land tradition of Mahayana=20 Buddhism is closely related to. The form of Buddhism "driven away"=20 from India was that of Sri Lankan related Theravadin Buddhism.=20 The TS teachings continually merge contradictory Mahayana and=20 Theravadin Buddhist doctrines, especially in their combined use of=20 Nepalese-Tibetan with Sri Lankan sources. However, they seem to=20 contain no appreciation of the intimate historical relationship between Vaishnavism and Pure Land Buddhism, as is apparent from all=20 the Sanskrit Buddhist texts, iconography and interdisciplinary evidence in ancient combined Vaishnava and Pure Land Buddhist centers of=20 worship like Vrindavana-Mathura. Instead of correctly associating the Mahayana doctrines, rites, iconography etc. of Nepalese-Tibetan=20 Buddhism with earlier theistic Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, the T S=20 Masters generally ignore the profoundly important Vaishnava link, and=20 instead focus on the "esoteric" deconstruction of other-power salvific Buddhist transcendentalism, and watering-down of the theistic=20 associations with "Hinduism" to re-present N-Tibetan Buddhism as=20 merely a covered form of Theravada.=20 Of course this campaign of Theosophy reinforced the exoteric-theism- versus-esoteric-atheism dichotomy already in N-Tibetan Buddhism.=20 Esoteric Voidism haunts Mahayana Buddhism in the same way that=20 esoteric atheism haunts "Hinduism" in the form of extreme impersonal Advaita Vedanta, and esoteric gnosticism still haunts=20 Christianity in the West. Thus while claiming a love of India and her=20 sacred traditions,in fact, the Theosophists rejected her authentic=20 traditions of salvific transcendental personalism, the dominant exoteric=20 Bhakti traditions of Krishna-Vishnu, Shiva and Devi, to promote a form of=20 exoterically Hinduized but esoteric, covered syncrestic Buddhism. The T=20 Masters were not masters of the corpus of Sanskrit or Southern Indian=20 Dravidian sacred Vishnu, Shiva, Devi and Marugan etc, literatures. They=20 did not teach about the direct relationship between Pure Land Buddhism=20 and Vaishnavism, and they seemed to know little about the great devotional, salvific traditions of either Northern or Southern India. They= =3D=3D=0D =20 presented themselves as the highest authorities on ancient wisdom, but apparently felt that honoring the sources of their wisdom, the "Shasters" that they disdained, was not necessary. Thus they presented=20 their own system of thought, using language and teachings from various=20 shastras without properly representing those texts, or their source, the=20 Supreme Deity of the Vedas and Puranas, Upanishads, Samhitas, temple=20 Archana Vigraha worship, Bhakti hymnology etc.=20 The Eastern teachings of the T Masters are a concoction of doctrines=20 drawn principally from Vaishnava and Buddhist sources, and they claim=20 to be the "highest authority" of this "only true philosophy" on Earth.=20 Blofeld, in his book on Tantric Mysticism In Tibet argued that the=20 different schools of Buddhism are like different grades. We can see this same general attitude among Theosophists, who also consider the=20 deity visualizations of Tibetan Buddhism to be like a high school level of = =3D=0D =3D=20 Buddhism, while the no nama-rupa (no name-form) practice of Zen=20 Buddhism is considered to be like the PhD program.=20 Theosophy teaches that there are Planetaries (like the astrological=20 planet regents or devas) and ascended Masters or their equivalent of=20 bodhisattvas, but there is no transcendental supreme personality of=20 Godhead, who is the source of such beings. In Theosophy the Dharma=20 Kaya, or ultimate reality is totally impersonal, and personality only exists in a qualified state in the Nirmanya (or Sambhogya) Kaya. So the=20 T S Masters are the highest authorities of the one true philosophy on earth, and clearly teach a Buddhism that rejects the original transcendentalism of the Vaishnava-related Mahayana Tri Kaya (trinity),=20 with its authentic bodhisattva doctrine, in favor of a Sri Lankan and Zen=20 related form of Theravadin Buddhism. Even so, the "absolute nothing"=20 (see Maseo Abe for example) of orthodox Sri Lankan- related=20 Theravadin Buddhism is not authentically and consistently represented=20 throughout the letters of the Mahatmas.=20 Now we have a general idea of the Masters' authority claims, the near nil extent of their Shastric knowledge-base (they reject the shastras) and the primarily syncretistic Buddhist Eastern aspect of their=20 perspective. Their writings are full of thought-forms, language and=20 references which clearly indicate a European higher education, so=20 Theosophical lore takes this into account, through reference to their=20 European education. Others (the Hare brothers etc.) have made textual=20 studies of the Mahatma Letters for internal evidence of their authorship.=20 However, I am not concerned with the Masters classical Western=20 education in this series of comments on the Mahatma letters. I am=20 concerned with whether or not the Letters accurately represent the=20 Eastern traditions that the Masters claim to have mastered, and have so obviously drawn from.=20 The Relationship Between The Masters and H.P.Blavatsky=20 At this point, we come to the question of the claimed relationship=20 between the Masters Koot Hoomi, Morya and Madame H.P. Blavatsky,=20 who was considered their absolutely consistent representative. What=20 authority is claimed for her ? Is she considered as equally infallible as some Theosophists consider the Masters K.H. and M? In the=20 below, it is claimed that Madame Blavatsky was actually an incarnation=20 of Serapis, the Master of K.H. and M themselves!=20 Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002.=20 "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B. ?=20 Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell=20 A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky=20 "From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or=20 Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis (being=20 a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of self-sacrifice."=20 These insights help us to understand more fully the significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky:=20 "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body=20 upon European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . ."=20 BA G: Thus while HPB was playing at being the student of her Masters=20 K.H. and M, Theosophists teach that she was actually their Master. The whole scheme gets quite convoluted, with the cast of T Masters=20 eventually being credited with human progress in general, through their astounding litany of previous incarnations.=20 The Authenticity of the Theosophical Revelation=20 The Mahatma letters are part of the larger body of Theosophical=20 teachings, whose greatest early contributor was Madame HPB / her=20 Masters. There are many claims made about the=20 mystical "precipitation," automatic writing or"channeling" (modern=20 term) of the Masters' teachings through HPB and others. Again I am not as concerned with these issues as I am interested in the use or misuse and misrepresentation of authentic, redacted / corrupted or=20 concocted ancient Eastern source-works. Like Joseph Smith's "miraculous" translation of his invented Egyptian "Book of Mormon" tablets, or works claiming to be based on documents about Jesus found=20 in a Tibetan Lamasery, or the claimed "Essene Gospel" of the bogus=20 modern so-called Essenes, there is a pattern to the emergence and=20 presentation of esoteric and neo-gnostic spurious "ancient" source=20 works. These typically are miraculously produced translations of some hidden,=20 lost or obscure text, inscriptions or other revelation, with built-in deniability when it comes to authentication of the source. There is=20 always some reason why the original source-work cannot be produced.=20 Perhaps it was taken back up to heaven by an angel. Maybe it was=20 destroyed by Catholics, or hidden in the Vatican Library under guard. In any event, the original document must be unavailable so that others=20 can not analyze it for authenticity, and compare the original=20 text's "miraculous translation" for accuracy. In the case of the Mahatma=20 letters, and the "Stanzas of Dyzan," the problem of authenticity has been=20 avoided by claiming that these writings were produced through the=20 spiritualistic mediumship of HPB.=20 Before her career as a Theosophical revelator of ancient Eastern=20 wisdom in India, she was a medium and conjuror in spiritualist s=E9ance and medium circles in America. She was extraordinarily well read, knew several languages, and was a great story teller and prodigious=20 writer who once ran a writing shop, and was expert in just the skills she would need to take dictation from the invisible Masters. Although she seemed to overtly hate Judaism and Christianity, she could also be an outspoken champion for those she considered wronged or oppressed. A=20 complex and brilliant women, HPB commanded respect even from some=20 educated and powerful men, in an age when women were not expected=20 to be the intelligent champions of anything. It should be kept in mind=20 that the social evils that were later to manifest from some of her seeds=20 of thought, were surely not anticipated or desired by her. (I obviously do not accept the idea that she was "Serapis," and thus an all-knowing Master, outside of the normal influences of time.) At some=20 point in her conjuring and minor-league mediumship, she "got religion"=20 so to speak, and embarked on a life-long mission to better the condition=20 of humankind. She was no doubt well motivated, but produced a mixed=20 work that was part genius and part nonsense and trickery. The question is ...why should people bandon the study of authentic ancient religious and philosophical source-works to accept her / the Mahatmas'=20 synthesis / writings as the ultimate authority on the world's hidden mysteries?=20 The Mahatma Letters.=20 [Caps for emphasis in quoted text mine, BA G]=20 "BTW=97even if HPB STOLE HER IDEAS and theories from all the ancient and modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes,=20 Pythagorus, Plato, Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- WHY SEND EVERYONE TO THEM to learn new languages and dig it out for=20 themselves, covering the same tracks that Blavatsky did=97when all of it was so CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY synthesized in the SD (along=20 with other explanatory writings of HPB and associated scriptural=20 confirmations) in the common language that most everyone of a=20 thoughtful mind in the world, today, can understand?"=20 "In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in the "revelations" of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner where intuition and reason=20 are the only Gods worth listening to."=20 BA G: This is the crux of the problem as far as I am concerned. It is a matter of the basic integrity or reliability of the information that has been presented in the Mahatma Letters, and the acknowledged=20 writings of H.P. Blavatsky and the other prominent personalities of the=20 early Theosophical Society and movement. What valuable truth did the=20 Theosophical Masters actually convey? Why should everyone go to the=20 the Masters, instead of to the still extant authentic ancient sources of classical Eastern and Western wisdom? Did the Masters and H.P.=20 Blavatsky always clearly and accurately synthesize and represent=20 important ancient teachings and traditions in her work? Or were there=20 serious omissions, contradictions, and other errors? Were some of their representations of ancient traditions seriously flawed, corrupted by = =3D=0D =3D=20 extreme bias and / or even actually dishonest?=20 Regarding Atheism in the Mahatma Letters...=20 The above current Theosophist's view regarding "the only gods worth listening to," should be compared to the statement below, of Master Koot Hoomi himself.=20 "Mahatma Letter No. 10=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm=20 [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting.=97Ed]=20 Notes by K.H. on a "preliminary Chapter" headed "God" by Hume,=20 intended to preface an exposition of Occult Philosophy (abridged).=20 Received at Simla, 1881-? `82.=20 [Caps for emphasis in the quoted text below are mine, BA G]=20 "NEITHER our philosophy nor ourselves BELIEVE IN A God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G."=20 ... "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and=20 we know there is in our system NO SUCH THING AS GOD, EITHER=20 PERSONAL OR IMPERSONAL. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute=20 immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance=20 based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented to=20 designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either=20 admired or dreaded without understanding them, and SINCE WE CLAIM=20 AND THAT WE ARE ABLE TO PROVE WHAT WE CLAIM=97i.e. the=20 knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain=20 THERE IS NO God OR Gods BEHIND THEM." ...=20 Confusion in the Master Results in Confusion in the Chela.=20 One Theosophical Society leader demonstrated why attention should be=20 paid to understanding Eastern thought and traditions, and individual=20 texts and persons, from reliable, historically authentic sources. He=20 profoundly erred in identifying myself (BA G) with ..."Vedantist and Buddhist sectarian and separatist teachings"....=20 If he had acquired any knowledge about the subject in general from=20 clear and accurate, reliable sources, he never could have confused me=20 with a "Vedantist." If he had any understanding of the various real-world sources and traditions involved, and had read and=20 understood my biographical sketch on the site where his comment was=20 posted, he would not have confused me with "sectarian and separatist teachings." I am a person who has studied deeply in numerous=20 traditions, having a distinguished history of service in non-sectarian=20 interfaith activism. My own teachings are anything but "separatist." As a=20 Shiksha (instructing) Master, in a lineage of Vaishnavism from which=20 some of the Masters' / Blavatsky's teachings have been appropriated, I=20 have some familiarity with the Sanskrit terms they used, as found in the=20 real ancient source works. I also have a clear understanding of the=20 differences between some of the various schools of "Hindu" thought. As=20 a Master in a Bhakti Yoga lineage, it is laughable to hear myself referred = =3D=0D =3D=20 to as a "Vedantist" in such a way.=20 One of my main criticisms of the Theosophical Society teachings is that they misrepresent teachings from genuinely ancient theistic and atheistic sources by appropriating, distorting, re-contexting and misinterpreting them. For instance the Mahatmas' teachings sometimes=20 make use of ideas from Vaishnava traditions, but make no proper=20 reference to the theistic thought-systems from which the ideas have=20 been acquired. Thus the cyclic Yuga (eon / age) rounds of a finite universe, emanations from Godhead and Shakti, days of Brahma and such ideas are presented=20 without their proper context and meaning. For example, in the authentic Vaisnava sources, the world-age Yugas are associated with=20 the Yuga Avataras of Hari, or Krishna-Vishnu (Amitabha-Lokesvara in=20 Pure Land Buddhism) who is the transcendent Deity, and the source of all spiritual and material realms and worlds (Vyuhas and Lokas). However=20 the T S Masters do not properly present the relationship of the Yugas to=20 the transcendental Deity. While there is some emanationism in the Masters' doctrines, it is not presented accurately from either the=20 Vaishnava or Vaishnava-related earliest forms of Pure Land Buddhism.=20 Instead, the saving Deities of other-power Pure Land Buddhism are=20 represented more as dependent-arising products of mind and dualism.=20 Outside of 'visualization', and the highest, subtlest material states, the Deities have no transcendent personal existence in the Dharma Kaya.=20 However, a depth study of Northern Buddhism from India to Japan=20 reveals the DHARMA KAYA is HRIH / HARI, the original PERSON OF THE=20 GODHEAD IN VAISHNAVISM. Thus the Dharma Kaya was not originally a=20 state of Buddhist extinction or non-being.=20 But the T Masters do not represent Buddhist Voidism or Advaita=20 Vedantist impersonalism purely either. Their "Buddhism" seems a strained synthesis of Vaishnava doctrines and the teachings of several different traditions of Buddhism. They try to associate their=20 amalgamated Buddhist teachings with Sri Lankan Theravada, Tibetan=20 and Zen Buddhism, this creates a strange brew when the emanationism=20 of Vaishnavism (without its Divine source) is added to the mix. When=20 time cycles and the days of Brahma etc. are described, the origin of=20 Brahma (Helios Phanes) in the personality of Godhead (Narayana) is not really stressed. In these and many other cases, the Mahatmas do=20 not deliver to their students a "clear and accurate" synthesis of ancient teachings and scriptures. In fact they seem to have had an=20 agenda to edit-out the theistic context and content of the ideas that they used.=20 Thus their product (the Mahatma Letters) appropriates elements from=20 both theistic and atheistic traditions and corrupts these, forming an=20 attempt to harmonize elements of theistic cosmogonic revelation, with=20 modern watered-down Neo-Vedantism and an equally corrupted form of=20 syncretistic Neo-Buddhism. by creating such a non-historical hodge- podge of spuriously 'ancient' doctrines from various mis-used sources, the Theosophical teachers render their chelas incapable of=20 clear, accurate, rational thought involving these matters. A basic=20 knowledge of real Indic traditions would have insured that the author=20 who called me a "vedantist" would not have accused a Vaishnava Bhakti- Yoginof atheistic advaitan teachings by using such a loaded sectarian=20 term.=20 Because the Masters and other T S writers frequently confounded and=20 merged and misrepresented Indic thought and traditions, Theosophists=20 typically have no real grasp of the most basic truths regarding these real-world traditions. Having accepted HPB's "Reader's Digest"-like condensed version and synthesis of the wisdom traditions,=20 they have cheated themselves out of a more direct and authentic=20 experience of the=20 same.=20 Humility is Just Honesty About Oneself...The Pathology of Needing to=20 Concoct, or Following Self-Appointed or Spurious Masters=20 This gets to the personality development and disciplinary aspect of the=20 issue. Why would someone who really wants to understand something,=20 choose not to go to the SOURCE and properly discipline themself in its=20 understanding? Why would a person prefer to speculate about=20 something from the outside, rather than studying it up-close in a=20 scientific, disciplined manner? The problem is that certain kinds of=20 people cannot submit to any real-world authorities and hate to be=20 required to live by rules of conduct and standards of behavior. They=20 don't want to discipline their inquiry into any kind of traditional approach.=20 They don't want to be bothered with the facts that disagree with them,=20 and they don't want to learn anything that requires real discipline=20 or "surrender." Such people will typically make-up their OWN ALTER- EGO AUTHORITIES to validate themselves and / or give themselves=20 credibility with others. Thus they can play at the humility and surrender=20 game, without ever really submitting themselves for instruction to=20 anyone. As a result we see the endless proliferation of "humble=20 servants" and "messengers" of the invisible or conveniently inaccessible=20 Masters, who never really require any surrender on "their" disciple's=20 part. The "disciple' OF THE INVENTED MASTER becomes, as a=20 messenger of their inaccessible Master (s), the REAL GURU / Master of=20 others, who really do desire a real-world flesh-and-blood authority.=20 Thus we can observe the endless innovation and diffusion of new=20 esoteric and occult "spiritualities" based on the sincere surrendered=20 following of some people, who blindly submit to those flesh-and-blood=20 Masters who are themselves only the "servants" of a PROJECTED=20 authority-figure of THEMSELVES. So, the problem is not that HPB and=20 her real-world incarnate friends assembled a syncristic thought-system from a vast number and variety of sources. The problem=20 is that they did not have the honesty about themselves, the humility to=20 admit the genealogy of their ideas. THIS IS THE BASIC PATHOLOGY OF=20 THE LACK OF INTEGRITY IN "SPIRITUAL BUT NOT RELIGIOUS" GROUPS.=20 Organized Religion is Not a Bad Thing...GSS Traditions and the Authentic Preservation and Diffusion of Ideas=20 Meanwhile in the exoteric Great Religions, real-world masters require=20 real-world surrender, discipline (diksha) and sacrifices from their=20 surrendered students, but IN RETURN THEY DELIVER THE AUTHENTIC=20 TEACHINGS OF REALLY ANCIENT AND VENERABLE TRADITIONS. "You=20 get what you pay for" ....in this case either the intellectual and devotional heritage of centuries of exoteric traditions, or the concoctions of modern era "esoteric" cheaters. Authentic ancient traditions still living have exoteric lineages, real examinable ancient=20 scriptures, real ancient histories and preserve the legitimate teachings=20 of their lineages doctrinally. etc. Such traditions are the real guardians = =3D=0D =3D=20 of ancient scriptures and wisdom. It takes a lifetime of disciplined study = =3D=0D =3D=20 to master even a tiny bit of what such traditions have to offer. But, the=20 proud "gnostic" or undisciplined jnani who idolizes their own brain, will not usually be attracted to a life time of study in anything=20 really demanding of them. It is difficult to learn when one thinks that=20 they already know everything, and has an aversion to all kinds of real=20 authority. The proud gnostic concocter would rather be self-educated=20 than to actually plumb the depths of anything through real surrender and disciplined inquiry with an authentic master requiring their respect. This is the pathology of the Masters-channeling New Age movement. I=20 have seen channeling groups that are nothing other than mutual- deification societies. Every member is in an unspoken agreement to=20 validate each other's fantacies of cosmic specialness.=20 Receiving "messages" from their Masters, or Master Beings, the chelas reinforce their mutual fantacies of previous illustrious incarnations, being angels, aliens, demigods and goddesses etc. Thus=20 they feed on each others' proud dishonesty and manipulativeness.=20 Usually because there really is no other authority than themselves,=20 surrender to these imaginary "Masters" never really requires anything of=20 them.=20 The Scholarly Contributions of Such self-Delude People=20 The result of such a person's scholarly endeavors usually shows their disdain for accountability to real world history and truth, the proper citation of previous authorities and scientific methodology. Such=20 personstypically want so-called "spirituality" without "religion." They want to master science or history or some field without=20 being actually trained in the disciplines of that field. They tend to be=20 masters of everything in their own opinion, but instead they are not the=20 real masters of anything. They tend to be dabblers, who are venerated=20 as masters by gullible people with a poor fund of knowledge. Now, in=20 my opinion, H.P Blavatsky and her friends, were both dabblers and the=20 actual masters of something. Their prodigious efforts and sacrifices did produce something. What they did master is on exhibit for all to see in the Mahatma Letters and other primary Theosophical Society writings. It is not that these writings have no value, but one should approach them as what they are, and not confuse them with what they claim to be, the highest authoritative teaching of the only true philosophy on earth.=20 So What Were the Theosophical Society Masters the Masters Of ?=20 Theosophical Society and Movement Propositions From T S Sources=20 1. The only true philosophy of the Earth, Theosophy identified as=20 Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these Letters are the primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance to Theosophists.=20 2. The Theosophical Masters, authors of the "Mahatma Letters," especially Koot Hoomi, Master Morya and Serapis, are the=20 highest authorities who have revealed themselves to humanity.=20 3. The Master of the Masters Koot Hoomi and Morya, is Serapis.=20 4. H.P. Blavatsky is the rather hidden incarnation of Serapis.=20 5. The brotherhood of Theosophical Masters has reincarnated=20 throughout time, guiding the world (and evolution of the races). Thus all previous revelations, religions and advances in various fields, must be interpreted in the context of their supposed relationship to the T S=20 Masters.=20 6. The priests of dogmatic or doctrinal ORGANIZED RELIGIONS have=20 corrupted their scriptures, so it is better to read the more authentic core of teachings contained in the "Stanzas of Dyzan" and the synthesized teachings of the Mahatmas and HPB. There is no need to=20 learn languages and study the source works themselves, as HPB has=20 provided a clear and accurate synthesis of everything in these that is significant to study.=20 7. Sannyasis and Sadhus etc. are "on the path of error," and Theosophy has nothing to do with the Shastra of Brahminism.=20 8. Koot Hoomi / Theosophy absolutely denies the existence of God or=20 Gods.=20 My additional assertions...=20 9. There is an amalgamation of Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism=20 with Advaita Vedantism and Vaishnava sources in the teachings of=20 Theosophical "Buddhism."=20 10. Madame Blavatsky was a very intellectually gifted and educated=20 person, who was the central figure in the whole development of=20 Theosophy. Whether or not she wrote the Mahatma Letters with the=20 help of corporeal or incorporeal beings, may or may not be of=20 importance in certain kinds of analysis of the letters. The actual content of the letters can be examined in relationship to real-world=20 ancient textual and living traditions, to see if the Mahatmas' presentations are accurate with regard to those thought-systems.=20 Let Us Now Consider Some of the Curious Facts Related to the Specific=20 Mixture of Kashmiri Eastern and Western Esoteric Teachings in the=20 Mahatma Letters.=20 In one letter KH writes to Sinnett:=20 ..."Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the `greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- ..."...=20 Most of the debates that I have seen regarding the T.S. Masters have=20 focused on the Masters' identity, the "precipitation" of their letters, H.P. Blavatsky's or someone else's medium-ship or "channeling" of their thoughts / writings, textual analysis of their letter= =3D=0D =3D=20 s=20 forcontemporary or near-contemporary plagiarized material, stylistic=20 elements, language or other clues to their identity. I do not intend to=20 address any of these things, which have all been chewed before.=20 Rather than chewing-the-chewed, like a cow not done with its cud, I=20 want to provide a reading of the Letters from the perspective of a=20 person familiar with some of the source-works and traditions that the=20 Mahatmas used and / or claimed to be representing. Ideas and the=20 words, written and spoken, and images or symbols and actions that=20 convey them, have history. Innovations occur and get diffused. Ideas=20 spark social movements that wax and wane. Thought-forms, like=20 other "things" have certain time-and-space limitations.=20 Communication is sent and received in specific forms and languages.=20 Each word or symbol has a content actually intended by its sender, and any number of meanings imposed on it by receivers. Scientifically- minded historians (not historical-fiction writers) want to know what was actually meant by the creators or sender(s) of a document from the=20 past. They want to understand the successive meanings giving to an=20 original or earlier document by later translators and commentators.=20 They want to peel-back the layers of time, and get at the original core of an idea. Such scientifically-minded persons do not want to=20 impose meanings on history, they want to discover the real meanings=20 already there in history. They don't want to "massage the data" to fit into preconceived notions of history, or to support an agenda of=20 some kind.=20 The real lover of truth wants to understand what really happened, who=20 the real players were, and what their motives, means and actions, and=20 the consequences were etc. Such investigators use scientific=20 methodologies and means of inquiry designed to safe-guard the=20 objectivity and integrity of their efforts. They try to avoid errors by rigorously identifying their sources, to be sure of authenticity.=20 In the case of my own studies, from the very beginning I learned of the value of interdisciplinary research from my father (a research=20 electrobiophysicist), who taught me that errors could be avoided and=20 facts established beyond doubt by approaching a subject or question=20 from a multiplicity of disciplines instead of only one. Thus my studies utilized every discipline that I could bring to bear on a particula= =3D=0D =3D=20 r=20 question. This has given me a well-rounded grasp of the main subjects=20 of my historical inquiries.=20 In Theosophical sources, the Master Koot Hoomi (K H) writes about the=20 Tibetans and Penjabi Singhs, Mr. Sinnet says that K H was a native of=20 the Punjab, H.P. Blavatsky says that Koot Hoomi is a Pujabi, and both=20 Blavatsky and others identify K H with Kashmir. Thus, I begin my=20 commentary on the Mahatma Letters with this fact, because I will be=20 focusing quite a bit on the Kashmiri-like syncristic Vaishnava, Buddhist and related content of the Letters. There is a well-established=20 connection between the Sikhs of Kashmir and Theosophy. What people=20 don't realize is that the Sikhs often worship in Vishnu temples,=20 because of their close historical connection to Vaishnavism. Tibetan Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Devi worship, Sufism, Sikhism and all=20 the branches of these traditions have their own real world histories. For=20 example, there is a traditional date for the entrance of Padmasambhava=20 into Tibet, and thus an eighth century AD historical beginning to Tibetan Buddhism. The Advaita Vedantism of Sri Adi Shankaracharya=20 has a history too, as do the successive waves of Ishmali and Sufi=20 Mohammedanism into the Punjab and Kashmir. In the Mahatma Letters=20 there is a curious mix of Atheistic and Theistic Vaishnava, Advaita=20 Vedanta, Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism, Sikh and Sufi=20 reinterpretations of Vaishnava, Shaivite and Devi teachings, and other amalgamations which can be found ESPECIALLY in the region of=20 Kashmir. In the religious melting-pot of Kashmir today for instance,=20 there may be found Vaishnava-influenced Muslim Sufi brahmins who do=20 not eat flesh, Tantric-influenced Sahajiya Vaishnavas, various Sufi- Vaishnava or Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid groups, and Sikhism, which as another Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid religion is of course related to the Vaishnava and Shaivite Kshatriya (warrior class) of the=20 Punjab.=20 Thus the Sikh name "Singh" is important in this connection.=20 Pure Land Buddhism, as originally in Nepal and Tibet, has its historical origins in Vaishnavism, and so is connected to the strange=20 Kashmiri mix in the thread of Vaishnava doctrines and practices running=20 through the whole region. It is from this regional melting-pot of Indic=20 and=3D=20 Western (Sufi and Gnostic) traditions that the Masters K H and Morya=20 seem to have acquired some of their unorthodox understanding of the=20 Sanskrit Shastras (scriptures) and to have created their hodge-podge of=20 an eastern thought system. Whoever they were, they were masters of=20 something, but what was that something? To assess their competence=20 as masters of eastern traditions, one would need themself to be=20 qualified in such traditions. As an instructing master in the Vedic-based Tradition of Vaishnavism, I am qualified to assess the=20 accuracy of the what the masters have presented from my own=20 tradition. Since the oldest literary traditions in the region are clearly=20 those of the Sanskrit Vedic Vaishnava-related texts, and the Masters=20 refer to some doctrines from these texts, then it is reasonable to assess=20 the Mahatmas' presentation of ideas from these texts to determine their=20 accuracy.=20 The Example of the Rig Veda and Proto-Mahayana Buddhism=20 For example, the Rig Veda is by all estimations very much older than the Advaita Vedantan writings of Adi Sankaracharya, the beginning of=20 Tibetan Buddhism (8th c AD), the Era of Asoka, or even the life of=20 Sakyamuni Buddha Himself. The Purusha Sukta Hymn is considered by=20 many scholars to be among the oldest surviving writings of humanity.=20 The Purusha Sukta is found in a collection of Vedic Sanskrit Hymns, the Rig Veda. These hymns glorify God under a variety of Names and=20 Forms, as these forms have appeared from the Cosmic Body of the=20 universal self-sacrificed Purusha, Who is described in the Purusha Sukta.=20 In later corruptions of this monotheistic tradition, the forms of Purusha, are demoted to a mere multiplicity of "gods." Thus polytheism, pantheism etc. eventually obscured the originality and=20 supremacy of Purusha as the transcendent supreme Deity of the Rig=20 Veda. Purusha assumed a cosmic form for self-sacrifice to create,=20 sustain (as sacramental food / Prasadam) and redeem every world /=20 cosmic manifestation. In the Purusha Sukta, and related Vedic texts, it is clearly understood that Purusha is VISHNU. The Purusha Sukta is still=20 chanted today on Vaishnava altars as the Eucharistic PRASADAM=20 offerings are being made. Another one of Vishnu's Vedic names is Asura=20 (from the root meaning "being," "to be, exist"). In the "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism," R. C. Zaehner identifies the=20 cosmic Purusha with the Zoroastrian supreme Deity Ahura Mazda=20 (Ahura=3DAsura).=20 The Jagganatha or Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha is sometimes=20 called his Vishva Rupa or Virata Rupa. This is one of the theophanies of SRI KRISHNA that was revealed to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita, The=20 cosmic form of God in Jewish mysticism is definitely related to the=20 revelation of Sri Krishna in the Gita. The universal Purusha is of course identified with the Purusha AVATARA FORMS OF VISHNU. In the=20 Vedas, Vishnu is called by many names, including Asura and Purusha. It=20 is Vishnu Who is worshiped in multi-form in the Vedic hymns. This is the=20 tradition of the oldest stratum of Vedic so-called "Hinduism," and all of=20 the principle Vedic Nama-Rupa name-forms of Vishnu are found many=20 centuries later in Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan and related=20 Nepalese Buddhism. There the very ancient Vedic names and forms of=20 Vishnu-Purusha AS LOKSHEVARA, are connected to Vaishnava doctrines,=20 rites, practices, sacramental social order etc.. So the foundation of=20 Tibetan Buddhism is in the much earlier worship of Vishnu-Purusha,=20 without any doubt. When the entire socio-religious cultural milieu in=20 which Sakyamuni's Buddhism first developed was Vedic-Vaishnava, how is it reasonable to assume that the pervasive elements of=20 Vaishnavism in Mahayana Buddhism are later, intrusions or corruptions?=20 In fact, Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, uses the very=20 Sanskrit Names of Krishna-Vishnu for the ADI BUDDHA, who is also=20 called ADI PURUSHA, BHAGAVAN, PURUSOTTAMA etc. To claim that a=20 younger tradition (Buddhism) owes nothing to its origins is ridiculous.=20 THIS IS THE SUI GENERIS nonsense of Theravadin Buddhism. The=20 extremely ancient Purusha Sukta related Forms of Lokesvara are those=20 of Vedic Purusha or Vishnu. The same names and forms are there in=20 both the Buddhist and Vaishnava traditions, and this is not peculiar to=20 the Nepalese-Tibetan form of Buddhism either. Everywhere in Pure Land=20 Mahayana Buddhism it is the same. The names, forms, doctrines, rites=20 etc. of the salvific transcendent other-power tradition of Buddhism are closely related to those of Krishna-centric Vaishnavism. When we=20 look at the Sanskrit sources for the Mahatmas' Hindu and Buddhist ideas, again the oldest of these are the Vaishnava and Vaishnava-related scriptures, litanies and prayers. For those accustomed to thinking of=20 Sanskrit literatures in terms of some generic hinduism, no such thing=20 existed in the ancient world. Scriptures were the testimony of specific traditions, such as the sattvic Vaishnava or Shaivite or tantric Devi=20 worshiping traditions. In the "CULT OF TARA" by S. Beyer, the original Sanskrit texts for the Tibetan Buddhist rituals of Mother Tara are given. -= =3D=0D -- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > I, for one, am getting tired of all your crap. What makes you think=20 > theosophists need you (an obscure historian with a personal hatred of=20 > theosophy who may be using this vendetta and these propaganda=20 tactics solely=20 > for purposes of attaining personal notoriety) to show them how=20 to "present=20 > their teachings to the world"?=20=20 >=20 > What hubris. It's almost sickening to what ends you will stoop to=20 prove your=20 > negative, prejudicial, and entirely unverifiable OPINIONS about=20 theosophy and=20 > its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even=20 superficially)=20 > or nothing at all of its actual philosophically or scientifically=20 > unassailable metaphysical meanings, purposes, and ends in view.=20=20 >=20 > What a joke. Putting up this offer is just like your other propaganda=20 tricks=20 > -- since you know, as well as all of us convinced, or even student=20 > theosophists, that there is no valid "evidence" (other than first hand=20 > experiential reports of credible people) that can "prove" (to each of=20 us,=20 > individually) that the Mahatma letters are or are not "authentic," or=20 whether=20 > or not the Masters, or "Mahatmas" who wrote them ever existed. In=20 theosophy,=20 > we base all our judgments on what is said, rather than who said it.=20=20 So,=20 > whatever your so called "experts" know about Indian civilization and=20 their=20 > ancient religions, they can no more verify or deny the letters=20 genuineness,=20 > whether of its writers or their message, as they can "prove" their own=20 > beliefs... Other than by blabbing the same worthless and prejudicial=20 OPINIONS=20 > about them that you have. Since when do exoteric and blind religious=20 beliefs=20 > have any weight in proving or disproving anything?=20 >=20 > The truth or validity of the Masters writings and teachings, whether in=20 the=20 > Mahatma letters or in the SD, can only be judged by careful study of=20 their=20 > inherent consistency with the fundamental teachings of ancient=20 theosophy --=20 > that neither you nor your pundits can deny with any "evidence" or=20 even by=20 > logical arguments based on the same "fundamental principles" that=20 the SD is=20 > grounded on... And, which, I'll wager, all Indian philosopher/scientists = =3D=0D of=20 > any honesty or integrity are in total agreement with. >=20 > Therefore, I challenge you to come up with any "Indian" (or for that=20 matter=20 > any other nationality's) pundits who will be able to deny the teachings=20 of=20 > theosophy on unassailably valid scientific, philosophical, or religious=20 > grounds. Accordingly, I await your posting of their valid "proofs" or=20 > arguments (if any) in letters signed by them -- relating to the non=20 existence=20 > of the Masters, and/or the invalidity of the theosophical teachings.=20=20 What=20 > makes you think, after more than 100 years of just such "experts"=20 trying to=20 > do so, that they can do so now?=20 >=20 > Wake up! And, get off our backs with your specious and opinionated,=20 > nonsensical harangues and phony, self-serving offers -- which I hope=20 no other=20 > theosophists will take up. (Although, I can't speak or be responsible=20 for=20 > anyone else but myself.)=20 >=20 > As a word of caution for the "other" members of "this list"...=20 Theosophists=20 > are wise to stay out of arguments about the validity or invalidity of=20 > religious beliefs or metaphysics -- which is a total waste of their time = =3D=0D and=20 > energy.=20=20 >=20 > LHM > ----------------------------------=20 > In a message dated 11/17/02 2:43:37 AM, brianmuehlbach@y...=20 writes: >=20 > >Let's Dallas/Daniel C. Caldwell and any other Theosophists on this list > >present there evidence the next few hours on : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > > >It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the=20 > >world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental=20=20 > >teachings or not.=20 > > > >Let us just have Daniel C. Caldwell, Dallas/Dalval, Leoanmaurer, or=20 > >however believes "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they=20 are,=20 > >post there and we watch this for a day or two, or and all of us who=20 think > >they have found something genuine in The Mahatma Letters post it=20 there > >and see what the experts say to that. Anybody is llowed to post=20 there > >. Let Daniel C. Caldwell , Dallas, and so on post whatever they want=20 us to > >believe on "theos talk" on=20 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization the next day ore so. > >With more then seven hundred (exactly 707) experts in the field of=20 > >ancient religions and civilisations on the Indian sub-continent.=20 (Including > >Tibetologists and so on)=20 > > > >And lets see how many of the more then sevenhundred experts=20 there=20=20 > >Daniel C. Caldwell and Dallas or however of those on theos-talk that=20 > >believe "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are can get=20 any > >of these sevenhundred and more experts there to agree. > >Lets Dallas/ Daniel/Leon/ and so on show us they are not just=20 crackpot- > >"believers." > > > > At least with such a large group of specialists in religions , history,= =3D=0D =20 and=20 > >archeology of the ancient Indian sub-continent (two or three ?) that=20 > >would confirm that what Dallas/Daniel and so on want us to=20 (bamboos=20 > >into ?) "believing," is true. > > > >I am looking now,=20 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > > > > > = =20 > > Brian > > > >PS I will place the complete postings as of this moment until in=20 three > >days from now appear on the subject of "the content and=20 precipitation > >of The Mahatma Letters" (with this very title) on my website in three=20 > >days, whatever appears the next three days on this subject. (except=20 of > >course those posters who let me know I should not place it on my=20 web=20 > >site, otherwise the postings there are public domain, and of course I=20 will > >let as soon the matter takes of on=20=20 > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization place a message=20 there > >with my intent so all there know ) From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 00:20:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 51050 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 08:20:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:20:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Adelaise on peace... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <155.17bd3813.2b0f2412@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1955 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Adelasie: But it is also possible to use the mantle of historical=20 investigation to try to throw dust in everyone`s eyes,=20 Paul: I see here the pattern of leaping from "perceived implications"=20 to "imputed intentions" and it leads to demonization of others and=20 degradation of discourse. That is, =84X`s historical investigations have th= e =3D=0D effect of making people feel as if dust has been thrown into their eyes,=20 therefore that was X`s intention."=20 Adelasie: to obscure the actual essential meaning of the thing so=20 investigated.=20 Paul: In all sincerity I doubt that any historian, professional or amateur,= =3D=0D =20 has "ever" had any such intention. But I bet hundreds or thousands have=20 been so accused.=20 Adelasie: In the case of theosophy and HPB, opposition has tried to do=20 this since the beginning.=20 Paul: This is where things get very dicey. If you look at any new=20 historical inquiry as possibly a tool of =84opposition that has tried to do= t=3D=0D his=20 since the beginning," you`re (impersonal you) going to be paranoid in=20 your attitude toward historical scholarship. Particularly when you start=20 applying this suspicion to people who have absolutely no interest or=20 desire in harming anyone.=20 Adelasie: There is a force called the disintegrator which attempts to=20 keep these teachings and all ancient wisdom from being spread among=20 humanity,=20 Paul: What is the source for this? Sounds like a Theosophical version of=20 the devil. And to interpret others as instruments of this evil force, tryin= =3D=0D g=20 to prevent the spread of teachings, is no better than fundamentalist=20 Christians seeing scholars of early Christian history as instruments of the= =3D=0D =20 devil trying to undermine the gospel. On one hand, you seem to be=20 saying that you don`t want to be enemies with me or anyone else with=20 whom you disagree on HPB; then on the other you turn around and=20 implicitly accuse us all of Satanic inspiration. Can you really have it bot= =3D=0D h=20 ways?=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 22 00:32:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 08:32:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 76770 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 08:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 08:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 08:32:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.191.10acb922 (4410) for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:32:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <191.10acb922.2b0f45a0@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:32:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi Mr. Sufilight, Everything you say is right on. And, I appreciate your candor. As for the poetic and artistic aspects of ABC, I've also thought of that. Go to the following site and see for yourself: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html For more ABC oriented art with a bit of meditative visualization thrown in, see: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/manfields.html There is much more along these lines, but, to see them, you will have to visit me, or read my book (if I ever finish and publish it in print -- beyond what is already posted on the cyberworld web or in the Astral.:-) Incidentally, most ofthe letters I write to this and all the scientific forums are also part of my book. Then go to the following site and find the links to some artistic pre ABC, "meditation with a seed" pencil paintings made about 25 years ago when I was wrapped up in -- but not trapped by -- the physical and astral worlds -- that need a bit of explanation -- before you get shocked by their candor. :-) http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/UAG.home.html Enjoy, Leonardo In a message dated 11/17/02 6:51:37 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi Leon and all of you, > >Its quite allright Leon <:-) >What I meant was: >When you during the past half year or so - so many times mentiones your >(so >very) own book when emailing - and >your own ABC theory, where you could have chosen a different path - of >text >or emailing - then I see a tendency. >And that tendency is, that it seems to me, that you stick to much with >your >book and your ABC -theory - more >than it is profitable for you and others. >And there it is i get the "Salesman" view into my mind. Not that I think >you >support egoism or anything like that, >but just this view i mentioned in the above. > >One could suggest, that you made a theory (i.e. maybe a book) on poetry >or >art or the like, so that you get another view than the so very very >scientific one. Maybe a poetic version of your ABC theory ? >Sometimes the author sticks to his creation - the book - like glue. And >he >is always out to defend it, whenever he is talking or emailing with >others, - or at least he is alert on the issue. Well, if you get my drift. ><:-) >Of course one - maybe - will have to defend the book from time to time. > >It is just that I see a tendency, nothing else. >Maybe I am the only one. >I know I am a little personal here, but I really honestly mean well. >And I think that, you Leon, have the stomach for it. > >I will also admit, that I am a little low on the scientific versions myself. >But, that is probably because I think the world has had to much of this, >and >needs reason - i.e. PEACE and not more dangerous weapons created by science >minds, who gets facinated more than they use their common sense. >Especially HPB was very good at throwing "common sense" in her articles, >where she had to explain the stupid scholars what Theosophy really was >and >is. > >Have I missed the point? > > > >from >M. Sufilight with...the best whises...and peace... From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 00:53:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 08:53:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 71077 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 08:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 08:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 08:53:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 08:53:24 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:53:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2453 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Well 6 months ago when I mentioned on WET that a US/Iraq war was on the table and bin Laden was still alive, nobody wanted to believe me. Now its al over the place. In fact it is no secret that there are at least 60 countries contributing to the campaign, its not the US alone. Iraq will be made one country with Jordania (making the Palestians in that country a minority), and the Jordanien king might be temporary head of state untill elections are held. That for the next 6 months out, the rest, we well only know that time. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > Sorry to jump in. My ISP has been on the blink and I have missed the last > > 24 hours of postings. I see a thread labeled "Does anybody want to die for > > oil?" and I wonder "Does anybody want to die?" > > > > When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with Iraq is a > > Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty can > > become even richer and more powerful, we might ask ourselves why the elder > > Bush stopped the war the first time? > > > > What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on Iraq is > > the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of > > nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he already has) > > and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage neighboring > > countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by Sadaam as more > > than mere diplomatic appeal. The stand (line in the sand, if you will) has > > to have teeth to have effect. (At least Sadaam has to think so). > > > > Personally, I hope we don't go to war in Iraq. I hope the UN weapons > > inspectors can verify the elimination/destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass > > destruction. I hope that someday all such weapons will be destroyed > > (including our own). I wish that hope alone could make the world a better > > and safer place. > > > > Bill > Dear Bill, > > Glad to see you speak up. At least we share the same hope! After hearing Bob Woodward this evening on Fresh Air describe the victory of Powell over the Rumsfeld/Cheney Unilateralist Axis of Evil there does seem to be some room for hope left in the the world. > > Hopefully, > > Paul From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 22 03:21:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 11:21:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 14866 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 11:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 11:21:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 11:21:53 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.5b.31b26a1e (4410) for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:21:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5b.31b26a1e.2b0f6d4d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:21:49 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Dallas . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/17/02 6:40:51 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: (snip??????) > . . . well . . . so . . . ^:-) . . . what can I say . . . })) Maybe, something in plain English we (or, is it, me?) can understand... <,\:-]> Just kidding. But, I really don't know what to answer about Jerry's tutorial on quantum physics -- which really has no relationship to reality... Because the quantum particle (as a separate object) is nothing but a useful contrivance (or illusion, since he likes that word) scientists use to describe the "wave front" of a monad. And, its wave patterns are the only things that actually exist, right from the get go -- as the triple loop of lines of force (emanating out of the absolute zero-point) that make up the first monadic entity (on the spiritual plane)... Which is the analogous model of all subsequent iteratively involved monads descending down to the photon (on the physical plane)... That actually breaks down from its inner dual nature into holographic interference pattern when it encounters and passes through twin holes separated by its wave length. Therefore, we can visualize the "wave front" of light -- as its twin loops of positive and negative "channels" of force or "energy" spiral down its propagational path (like a spiraling string of DNA) -- described graphically, as a clockwise and counterclockwise spinning circle or wheel (0) having a figure eight inscribed within it. With each wheel of the inner 8 spinning in opposite directions... Thus, 360 degrees polarized. (See the three zero points where the wheels touch each other, and the lines of spiraling force cross over each other as positive and negative poles on the outer circumference, with a neutral or "laya" point in the center. Thus, light is a triple natured primal monad on each plane of consciousnes in liniar (projected or radiated) motion. Of course, science has yet to have the faintest idea how the universe really works on all its seven different levels or planes of consciousness. So, therefore, as GS might agree, what we think of matter as being "particles," is really the only illusion. Proving that quantum physicists really doesn't know what they are talking about in their strange mathematical jargon (although it "works," which is all that science cares about, as far as cell phones, digital computers and computer chips go). But, light itself, as we experience it -- being reconstructed holographic wave patterns in our mind (field of Manas) and impinging on our zero-point center of awareness-- is certainly no illusion. For, if it was, we wouldn't be able to dream, enjoy a sunset, or walk a foot in the world without killing ourselves. Hope this helps eliminate your head scratching (and saves you from any further speculative irritations of the scalp :-) when considering this subject in the future from a clearly theosophical-scientific point of view. Best wishes, LHM <| ;-)> From eldon@theosophy.com Fri Nov 22 07:04:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 15:04:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 14498 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 15:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 15:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 15:04:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 5849 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 15:04:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.240) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 15:04:55 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.240 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 10:04:55(EST) on November 22, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.240 To: Subject: the theosophical dharma as a path Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:03:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c29238$610b0050$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bhakti Ananda Goswami: An examination of Theosophy as presented in various theosophical groups reveals several variants of the philosophy. There are a number of differing viewpoints represented, each with its own distinctive characteristics. There is the original philosophy as taught by HPB and her Teachers. This could be considered the source writings of Theosophy. There is a particular interpretation presented by the ULT that also considers the writings of Robert Crosby as important. Another version includes Katherine Tingley and G. de Purucker. Another variant braches out with the writings of Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater. Yet another would focus on the writings of Krishnamurti. Even within one of these different versions, a student may entertain different and changing views about the purpose of the Theosophical Society and the role of Theosophy in the world. The student is left in a situation where continued self-reflection and examination of basic beliefs is fostered, helping create an inquiring, searching, aware, and awakened mind. A critic of the theosophical dharma may try to define Theosophy, the purpose of the Theosophical Society, or the role of its key historic figures. In order to refute something, it first has to be defined or described. The problem is that the subject is amorphous, and theosophical students are readily entertaining new views about things. There is no one single way of describing it all that can be defined, critiqued, and refuted, since the better theosophical students are always moving onto better ways of looking at things. There is no fixed view of reality entertained by them that can be shattered in the hope that they may adopt one's own beliefs. When someone says that HPB thought up or copied an idea from elsewhere, that is but one of many possible theories of what happened. A student entertains many theories. Even should someone accept that idea, there are yet many further refinements to it that one could consider. One might say that regardless of her knowledge and intentions, which might be disputed, there was some form of Destiny behind her actions that led her to fulfill an important philosophical role in our society. There can be a unique worldview coming out of her efforts that is as based on the reality of life as other great philosophies. The greatness that comes out in life is bigger than the capabilities of any particular individual expressing it. Blavatsky brought in something big, and it continues to grow and evolve. We can continue its perfection as something of value, presenting and interpreting it in a manner that makes it a force for good in the world. There is not a precise definition of Theosophy that can be formalized into some orthodoxy. Even so, many theosophical groups have their favorite view that they promote. Each group may have its own biases or slant on the Message. Each student likewise has his or her explanation that best fits their worldview. That explanation grows and evolves over time as the student's spirituality deepens and progress is made on the Path. The theosophical approach encourages one to explore many different explanations and not simply accept a single dogmatic package. Even so, there are a definite core of ideas that are presented. Someone could write the basic doctrines of Theosophy in a way that most would agree represent what it says. Over time, these doctrines will evolve into a coherent philosophical school of thought deserving the same level of respect as other major schools. For an individual's study, it is important to know what H.P. Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters says. One needs to know these ideas so that they can be compared to what one's favorite secondary authors, like, say, what C.W. Leadbeater, Robert Crosby, or James Long may say. In order to sort out one's thinking, one needs to see and somehow explain any apparent differences. If Blavatsky says one thing, for instance, and Leadbeater another, why is this so? Did Leadbeater misunderstand an idea, misperceive things psychically, or did he know better and have direct personal experience that was more direct and real than Blavatsky's intellectual training? Were both wrong? Or do both contrasting ideas serve as a paradox that leads one into a deeper insight that is not readily found in either writing when standing by itself? There are archetypal forces at work behind all systems of thought. These forces compel people to evolve, perfect, or progress the system to something more luminous, transparent, and expressive of divine theosophia. Whatever blemish one may find on a guru or teacher, the dharma shines, made of gold, ever increasing in value. Students of Theosophy may consider it a more accurate wording of the Mysteries, expressed anew in relatively modern terms and containing significant insights. The value of it as a dharma remains as long as there are people that understand and share it. Apart from that dharma, which could be considered its aspect as a spiritual movement, there are advanced metaphysics that hint at occult truths. These metaphysics represent a starting point to an occult understanding of life, though, only hinting at the highest teachings. The deeper understanding comes with Initiation. Even though they never met them in person, some theosophists would consider Blavatsky or her Masters as their spiritual teachers. When others seem intent on giving their teachers a bad name and on the destruction of their dharma, such a student would be challenged to respond in the proper way. The student would be challenged to even know what the proper response should be. There will always be people that stay within their favorite religion or philosophy, refusing to acknowledge the light found in other approaches. Such people are harmless, if narrow-minded. They are only a problem when they feel a need to destroy other approaches, seeking converts to their faith or philosophical, religious, or scientific outlook on life. When meeting these people, we must decide if we should ignore them, or waste time opposing their destructiveness. Dialog can only be established with people that cultivate an open mind and people with sufficient spirituality and insight into life that they recognize it in others, regardless of differences of language, culture, and religion. In a forest, there are periodic fires that burn out the underbrush, leaving behind the large trees. This is important on a regular basis. If too much time goes without such a fire, when a fire does come the entire forest will burn to the ground. For a system of thought, there are times when it needs such a renovation. The theosophical movement needs to be reenergized, revitalized, and put into a form that makes it a powerful force for good. If those of us that consider ourselves active theosophical students can do this, we will have done a great service. Otherwise, things move on. The light of the Mysteries, the work of Bodhisattvas and other great beings to "bring forth the kingdom of heaven on earth" will continue in other ways. In every way possible, the good seeks to come forth into the world, and we can play a role in helping it happen, or just sit back and let others do the work. It will happen, though. It's just a matter of time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 07:21:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 15:21:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 38555 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 15:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 15:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 15:21:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 15:21:04 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:21:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Steve Stubbs: A Question about Brian's claim Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 914 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, Not too long ago, Brian Muehlbach pointed out that he has been in correspondence/communication with you for the last year or even longer. Since Brian Muehlbach has only surfaced on the WWW during the last 4 months, can you verify that Brian has actually been in touch with you for the last year or so? Or was it actually Brigitte or Brigitte Muehlegger who has been in communication with you for the last year or so? Your answer will help to confirm or disconfirm Bill Meredith's statement about Brigitte and Brian being the same "soul" or person. This will help to clear up the confusion Brian has created on this list. For example, Eldon Tucker wrote not too long ago: "My first thought when reading the post by Gowsami was that here was another fictional character made up by Brigitte, so I did a quick search of the Internet and see that there really is someone with that name." Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 07:51:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 15:51:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 75132 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 15:51:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 15:51:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 15:51:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:51:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Steve Stubbs: A Question about Brian's claim Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1204 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach So what do you try to gain from all this nonsence in the meantime avoiding the real issueas at hand. Did yuo already answers fully Goswamis latest mai,l in full ??- -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, > > Not too long ago, Brian Muehlbach pointed out that he has been in > correspondence/communication with you for the last year or even > longer. > > Since Brian Muehlbach has only surfaced on the WWW during the last 4 > months, can you verify that Brian has actually been in touch with you > for the last year or so? > > Or was it actually Brigitte or Brigitte Muehlegger who has been in > communication with you for the last year or so? > > Your answer will help to confirm or disconfirm Bill Meredith's > statement about Brigitte and Brian being the same "soul" or person. > > This will help to clear up the confusion Brian has created on this > list. > > For example, Eldon Tucker wrote not too long ago: > > "My first thought when reading the post by Gowsami was that here > was another fictional character made up by Brigitte, so I did a > quick search of the Internet and see that there really is someone > with that name." > > Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 08:34:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 82619 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 16:34:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:34:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Goswami recommends "The Vedic Experience" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1284 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Goswami writes: > I AM DELIGHTED THAT YOU MR. CALDWELL, HAVE TAKEN THIS DISCUSSION TO > ITS EARLIEST EXTANT SOURCE IN THE RIG VEDA. IN DEFERENCE TO THE > THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ADVAITA VEDANTIC PERSPECTIVE, LET US REFERE TO A > TRANSLATION OF THE VEDIC HYMNS DONE BY THE WORLD FAMOUS ADVAITA > VEDANTIC SANSKRIT SCHOLAR, FATHER RAIMUNDO PANIKKAR. IN HIS "THE > VEDIC EXPERIANCE MANTRA MANJARI AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE VEDAS FOR MODERN > MAN AND CONTEMPORARY CELEBRATION" (1977, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA > PRESS, BERKELEY AND LOS ANGELES, USA, ISBN # 0-520-02854-6 ), THE > HYMN YOU HAVE PROVIDED BELOW IS ON PAGE 58. THIS IS CITED IN THE > CHAPTER TITLED ADI, OR PRELUDE. IT IS THE NASADIYA SUKTA, RIG VEDA > X, I29. > > I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THIS ANTHOLOGY TO ALL THOSE THEOSOPHISTS > INTERESTED IN AVAILING THEMSELVES OF MORE 'DIRECT' (VIA ENGLISH) > KNOWLEDGE OF THE ASTOUNDING VEDIC-VAISHNAVA HYMNS. > Goswami, I am glad that you mention the above book by Raimundo Panikkar. This is one of my favorite volumes on the subject and I have used my copy enough times that I need to buy a new copy! I'm glad to see the book available from Amazon.com. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/8120812808/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 08:52:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 16:52:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 35621 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 16:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 16:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 16:52:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 16:52:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:52:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Goswami on "three kinds of God Realization" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2425 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Goswami on "three kinds of God Realization" Students of Theosophy might want to explore more fully what Goswami writes about on the "three kinds of God Realization" in the extracts BELOW. Notice what Goswami writes about the "summit and most inclusive". It would be interesting to know Gerald Schueler's "take" on this subject since he is much interested in this topic. Daniel --------------------------------------------------- THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND ASSOCIATED WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF THE BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY THE SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR DIRECTLY 'SEEN'. . . . THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE DOCTRINE OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREMA, DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA OR 'NOT- ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF ILLUSION DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS ONLY CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI PURUSHA IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS MADE MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND ALL THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED! ---------------------------------------------------- From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 22 09:24:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:24:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 5723 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:24:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:24:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:24:06 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BABD262D14 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:24:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001d01c2924b$3158c960$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Where Brian could be better.... Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:18:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, All the below is a view. It is a friendly one, I mean no harm. The readers should feel free to comment on this: I will try with one sentence to make my point. 1. Someone wise said: Love can only be got through love. 2. Then maybe you will understand why I can't agree 100% upon your ideas in the below, although there are some views which derserves attention. I liked your recent quotes here at Theos-Talk on "racism and races" - from the Secret Doctrine, and they told, the need for a new attitude upon The Secret Doctrine. A sentence is this: "There can only be ONE true RELIGION". But as someone said: "It is only when it is dark enough, that we can see the stars." (Martin Luther King Jr.) No Aryan misunderstandings here...or in the below... 3. What name you prefer, is totally up to you and anyone else. If you - your self - can't come up with any true RELIGION for me to follow - I will stick with Theosophy in its most truest form, as what we call the Wisdom Religion of all ages past. But that is not what we could call - the mainstream Theosophy of today, no, no way ! (And may be you agree on that. If so please let me know. There is a need for a new - true Wisdom-Religion - maybe called "Theosophy", adapted to the year 2002). I would myself like to add Martin Luther King JR. - interpreted by the wisdom religion of all ages past. And also Idries Shah. I know, that some might not agree. But I cull the GOOD I find in each. What about you ? 4. REMEMBER: In that "We cull the good we find in each" scripture and message. (also those said to be made by Mahatmas or a Blavatsky) We learn, and we walk the path and becomes united and is united with the undescribeable ParaBrahman, in the sense of NOT THIS, NOT THAT, (Neti, Neti). PERIOD. (So be please more constructive...please). 5. I havn't seen any book or scripture online at the website you often are referring to - except what one could call a religion of NEGATIVE negations. Try at least POSITIVE neagtions. Or try some of the below. 6. And this could help : Negativity creates neagativity. Positivity creates positivity. To make a refutation of your email I will refer to the following. Heeem...But do work trough it all the way to the end if you want to be worth your salt, and not just be looked upon by some as a crackpot polemicist >:-): A. "OCCULTISM VERSUS THE OCCULT ARTS" Article by H. P. Blavatsky (1888) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-occ.htm B. "The Key to Theosophy" Book by H. P. Blavatsky http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-hp.htm (Especially Section 2; "We cull the good we find in each.") C. *Theosophy - and Wisdom Organisations and Their Mode of Operation * *** Written in private by Morten Sufilight *** (2001) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28623 D. "IS THEOSOPHY A RELIGION?" Article by H. P. Blavatsky (1888 ) http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/IsTheosophyAReligion.htm That is not any kind of ordinary orthodox Buddhism, that must be clear to every one. a physical reading of - The Stanzas of Dyzan will never match - a clear reading of the Akasha library on the non-physical level ! That must be true. So don't get stock on the physical level ! 7. As stated in the article - at C. - in the above, it is always possible to raise a opposition to other views ( i.e. Theosophy) on a dualistic level of being - like this one on this Planet called Earth. But if you are against the line the organization by the name "The Theosophical Society" has today, then I can much better understand your emails. But then please refer to to that organization or those organizations you have in mind - instead of the true Theosophy, which in truth , and by definition, is the very inner core of your very own being, even so if you not are aware of it not ! NOT all theosophical groups are in your FIRE-line here. Well that is my view. Could you please be more specific on that in the future. Feel completly free to do your best... from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. "OPINIONS about theosophy and its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even superficially)= or nothing at all" Brian: If you know anything at all yourself then start by showing us one by one a scolarly refutation of the few dozen "philosophical" points refuting the contents of for example the "Mahatma Letters" below, but do work trough it all the way to the end if you want to be worth your salt, and not just be looked upon by some as a crackpot polemicist: In these Letters, the Mahatmas have made great claims about their teaching authority. Others have accepted these Masters' claims to teaching authority as valid, and have thus based their entire world-view and life choices on the teachings of these Theosophical (T) Masters. For some this has been a life-enriching experience, which has inspired philosophical inquiry, intellectual growth, virtue, altruism, a sense of universal brotherhood and other good things in them. These Theosophists have extracted things from the teachings of the T Masters that reinforced their inherent goodness and encouraged their intellectual growth and moral development and intellectual-affective integration on many levels. Such a positive outcome is no-doubt what H.B. Blavatsky and other of the Theosophical leaders had in mind at the outset of their mission to create a global order devoted to their esoteric = studies. However, some of the central ideas contained in the T Masters' "Mahatma Letters" inspired malevolent, not benevolent people, and through the world-view and life-choices of these ill-motivated people, led to some persistently dangerous global ideologies and tragic outcomes in history. It is a given that the same can = = be said regarding some ideas contained in the Vedas, or the Bible etc. For example, in India, the Vedic and Puranic concept of the sacramental social body (Daiva Varnashram Dharma system) of the self-sacrificed cosmic Purusha (Rig Veda Purusha Sukta Hymn) was corrupted by the conscience-less powerful into the oppressive reincarnation-and-karma doctrine related birth-caste system. As in Protestant Puritanism, a happy privileged life was considered by the elite birth-caste Brahmins to be the result of cosmic favor or su karma / good karma. Those powerless persons suffering from poverty etc. were considered unworthy of anything better by virtue of their previous sinfulness and resultant cursed birth / vi-karma or bad karma. Thus this Vedic doctrine of varna interpreted by non racist people of benevolent good-will could result in a just and peaceful, progressive unifying social order. However the same doctrine could result in oppression and birth-class slavery when interpreted by racist persons of ill-will. In the same way the Christian mission to go out and save people may be the inspiration for either altruistic, benevolent and socially unifying acts that build non-sectarian human community, or the gospel mission may be misinterpreted as a mandate to forcibly "convert" humanity in colonial and muslim jihadi-like campaigns. Historical Denial Does Not Serve the Best Interest of Humanity It does not serve the best interest of humanity to ignore the historical relationship between the ideal of the Vedic Varnashram Dharma system doctrine and the horrific pathological reality of the birth- caste system. It does not help humanity to ignore the historical reality of= therelationship between the doctrine of Christian mission and its perverted manifestation, the doctrine of Euro-American global conquest. In the same way, it is not in the best interest of humanity to ignore or totry to cover-up / obscure the historical relationship of certai= = n Theosophical ideas to colonial 'white" Aryan racism, later nazi aryosophism,and the diffusion of these ideas into various other socially pathological, racist and scientistic movements. Ideas have history, and even the best of ideas are misunderstood and abused or corrupted over time and distance as they diffuse through various existing thought- systems and languages. Time and circumstance modify ideas. Even when an attempt is made to protect an idea from modification by doctrinalizing it, varying perspectives allow for doctrines to be interpreted in different ways. Thus a non racist and a racist reading the Purusha Sukta will see different doctrines in it. A doctrine or creed (credo=Shraddha), like beauty can exist "in the eye of the beholder," as well as codified in documents. As a result, persons of good-will and those of ill-will can seem to profess the same creed, but the content of the creed, the meaning of the words is not the same for them. The document is the same, the difference being in their perspective. Syncrestic Buddhism in the Mahatma Letters...The Masters Reject the Brahminical Scriptures of Hinduism Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a message from Master Morya. Dehra Dun. Friday. 4th. "It is useless for a member to argue `I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations are for good' etc. and he, at the same time, building by his acts and deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and of Sanggyas to do with the SHASTERS and Orthodox Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE PATH OF ERROR, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if = = they want us. Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a Nastika as they call us? None." BA G: In this quote, the "Shasters" (Shastras, Holy Sanskrit scriptures) of India are rejected, and the teachings of the T Masters and HPB are clearly identified with Theravadin (Southern or atheistic) Buddhism, centered in Sri Lanka, which was driven out of India during and subsequent to the reign of the Mahayana Buddhist emperor Asoka. Asoka's own Buddhist Master had an Ashram in Mathura, the ancient capital and educational university "Vatican City" of Royal Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, which the pure land tradition of Mahayana Buddhism is closely related to. The form of Buddhism "driven away" from India was that of Sri Lankan related Theravadin Buddhism. The TS teachings continually merge contradictory Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhist doctrines, especially in their combined use of Nepalese-Tibetan with Sri Lankan sources. However, they seem to contain no appreciation of the intimate historical relationship between Vaishnavism and Pure Land Buddhism, as is apparent from all the Sanskrit Buddhist texts, iconography and interdisciplinary evidence in ancient combined Vaishnava and Pure Land Buddhist centers of worship like Vrindavana-Mathura. Instead of correctly associating the Mahayana doctrines, rites, iconography etc. of Nepalese-Tibetan Buddhism with earlier theistic Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, the T S Masters generally ignore the profoundly important Vaishnava link, and instead focus on the "esoteric" deconstruction of other-power salvific Buddhist transcendentalism, and watering-down of the theistic associations with "Hinduism" to re-present N-Tibetan Buddhism as merely a covered form of Theravada. Of course this campaign of Theosophy reinforced the exoteric-theism- versus-esoteric-atheism dichotomy already in N-Tibetan Buddhism. Esoteric Voidism haunts Mahayana Buddhism in the same way that esoteric atheism haunts "Hinduism" in the form of extreme impersonal Advaita Vedanta, and esoteric gnosticism still haunts Christianity in the West. Thus while claiming a love of India and her sacred traditions,in fact, the Theosophists rejected her authentic traditions of salvific transcendental personalism, the dominant exoteric Bhakti traditions of Krishna-Vishnu, Shiva and Devi, to promote a form of exoterically Hinduized but esoteric, covered syncrestic Buddhism. The T Masters were not masters of the corpus of Sanskrit or Southern Indian Dravidian sacred Vishnu, Shiva, Devi and Marugan etc, literatures. They did not teach about the direct relationship between Pure Land Buddhism and Vaishnavism, and they seemed to know little about the great devotional, salvific traditions of either Northern or Southern India. They== presented themselves as the highest authorities on ancient wisdom, but apparently felt that honoring the sources of their wisdom, the "Shasters" that they disdained, was not necessary. Thus they presented their own system of thought, using language and teachings from various shastras without properly representing those texts, or their source, the Supreme Deity of the Vedas and Puranas, Upanishads, Samhitas, temple Archana Vigraha worship, Bhakti hymnology etc. The Eastern teachings of the T Masters are a concoction of doctrines drawn principally from Vaishnava and Buddhist sources, and they claim to be the "highest authority" of this "only true philosophy" on Earth. Blofeld, in his book on Tantric Mysticism In Tibet argued that the different schools of Buddhism are like different grades. We can see this same general attitude among Theosophists, who also consider the deity visualizations of Tibetan Buddhism to be like a high school level of = = Buddhism, while the no nama-rupa (no name-form) practice of Zen Buddhism is considered to be like the PhD program. Theosophy teaches that there are Planetaries (like the astrological planet regents or devas) and ascended Masters or their equivalent of bodhisattvas, but there is no transcendental supreme personality of Godhead, who is the source of such beings. In Theosophy the Dharma Kaya, or ultimate reality is totally impersonal, and personality only exists in a qualified state in the Nirmanya (or Sambhogya) Kaya. So the T S Masters are the highest authorities of the one true philosophy on earth, and clearly teach a Buddhism that rejects the original transcendentalism of the Vaishnava-related Mahayana Tri Kaya (trinity), with its authentic bodhisattva doctrine, in favor of a Sri Lankan and Zen related form of Theravadin Buddhism. Even so, the "absolute nothing" (see Maseo Abe for example) of orthodox Sri Lankan- related Theravadin Buddhism is not authentically and consistently represented throughout the letters of the Mahatmas. Now we have a general idea of the Masters' authority claims, the near nil extent of their Shastric knowledge-base (they reject the shastras) and the primarily syncretistic Buddhist Eastern aspect of their perspective. Their writings are full of thought-forms, language and references which clearly indicate a European higher education, so Theosophical lore takes this into account, through reference to their European education. Others (the Hare brothers etc.) have made textual studies of the Mahatma Letters for internal evidence of their authorship. However, I am not concerned with the Masters classical Western education in this series of comments on the Mahatma letters. I am concerned with whether or not the Letters accurately represent the Eastern traditions that the Masters claim to have mastered, and have so obviously drawn from. The Relationship Between The Masters and H.P.Blavatsky At this point, we come to the question of the claimed relationship between the Masters Koot Hoomi, Morya and Madame H.P. Blavatsky, who was considered their absolutely consistent representative. What authority is claimed for her ? Is she considered as equally infallible as some Theosophists consider the Masters K.H. and M? In the below, it is claimed that Madame Blavatsky was actually an incarnation of Serapis, the Master of K.H. and M themselves! Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002. "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B. ? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky "From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis (being a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of self-sacrifice." These insights help us to understand more fully the significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky: "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . ." BA G: Thus while HPB was playing at being the student of her Masters K.H. and M, Theosophists teach that she was actually their Master. The whole scheme gets quite convoluted, with the cast of T Masters eventually being credited with human progress in general, through their astounding litany of previous incarnations. The Authenticity of the Theosophical Revelation The Mahatma letters are part of the larger body of Theosophical teachings, whose greatest early contributor was Madame HPB / her Masters. There are many claims made about the mystical "precipitation," automatic writing or"channeling" (modern term) of the Masters' teachings through HPB and others. Again I am not as concerned with these issues as I am interested in the use or misuse and misrepresentation of authentic, redacted / corrupted or concocted ancient Eastern source-works. Like Joseph Smith's "miraculous" translation of his invented Egyptian "Book of Mormon" tablets, or works claiming to be based on documents about Jesus found in a Tibetan Lamasery, or the claimed "Essene Gospel" of the bogus modern so-called Essenes, there is a pattern to the emergence and presentation of esoteric and neo-gnostic spurious "ancient" source works. These typically are miraculously produced translations of some hidden, lost or obscure text, inscriptions or other revelation, with built-in deniability when it comes to authentication of the source. There is always some reason why the original source-work cannot be produced. Perhaps it was taken back up to heaven by an angel. Maybe it was destroyed by Catholics, or hidden in the Vatican Library under guard. In any event, the original document must be unavailable so that others can not analyze it for authenticity, and compare the original text's "miraculous translation" for accuracy. In the case of the Mahatma letters, and the "Stanzas of Dyzan," the problem of authenticity has been avoided by claiming that these writings were produced through the spiritualistic mediumship of HPB. Before her career as a Theosophical revelator of ancient Eastern wisdom in India, she was a medium and conjuror in spiritualist séance and medium circles in America. She was extraordinarily well read, knew several languages, and was a great story teller and prodigious writer who once ran a writing shop, and was expert in just the skills she would need to take dictation from the invisible Masters. Although she seemed to overtly hate Judaism and Christianity, she could also be an outspoken champion for those she considered wronged or oppressed. A complex and brilliant women, HPB commanded respect even from some educated and powerful men, in an age when women were not expected to be the intelligent champions of anything. It should be kept in mind that the social evils that were later to manifest from some of her seeds of thought, were surely not anticipated or desired by her. (I obviously do not accept the idea that she was "Serapis," and thus an all-knowing Master, outside of the normal influences of time.) At some point in her conjuring and minor-league mediumship, she "got religion" so to speak, and embarked on a life-long mission to better the condition of humankind. She was no doubt well motivated, but produced a mixed work that was part genius and part nonsense and trickery. The question is ...why should people bandon the study of authentic ancient religious and philosophical source-works to accept her / the Mahatmas' synthesis / writings as the ultimate authority on the world's hidden mysteries? The Mahatma Letters. [Caps for emphasis in quoted text mine, BA G] "BTW-even if HPB STOLE HER IDEAS and theories from all the ancient and modern teachers of the hidden mysteries (including Hermes, Pythagorus, Plato, Buddha, Lao Tse, Vyasa, Patanjali, etc.) -- WHY SEND EVERYONE TO THEM to learn new languages and dig it out for themselves, covering the same tracks that Blavatsky did-when all of it was so CLEARLY AND ACCURATELY synthesized in the SD (along with other explanatory writings of HPB and associated scriptural confirmations) in the common language that most everyone of a thoughtful mind in the world, today, can understand?" "In any event, I'm satisfied that the ultimate truth, as close as we'll ever get to it (barring faith in the "revelations" of one's favorite guru or God) is in theosophy's corner where intuition and reason are the only Gods worth listening to." BA G: This is the crux of the problem as far as I am concerned. It is a matter of the basic integrity or reliability of the information that has been presented in the Mahatma Letters, and the acknowledged writings of H.P. Blavatsky and the other prominent personalities of the early Theosophical Society and movement. What valuable truth did the Theosophical Masters actually convey? Why should everyone go to the the Masters, instead of to the still extant authentic ancient sources of classical Eastern and Western wisdom? Did the Masters and H.P. Blavatsky always clearly and accurately synthesize and represent important ancient teachings and traditions in her work? Or were there serious omissions, contradictions, and other errors? Were some of their representations of ancient traditions seriously flawed, corrupted by = = extreme bias and / or even actually dishonest? Regarding Atheism in the Mahatma Letters... The above current Theosophist's view regarding "the only gods worth listening to," should be compared to the statement below, of Master Koot Hoomi himself. "Mahatma Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm [Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting.-Ed] Notes by K.H. on a "preliminary Chapter" headed "God" by Hume, intended to preface an exposition of Occult Philosophy (abridged). Received at Simla, 1881-? `82. [Caps for emphasis in the quoted text below are mine, BA G] "NEITHER our philosophy nor ourselves BELIEVE IN A God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G." ... "Therefore, we DENY God both as philosophers and AS BUDDHISTS. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system NO SUCH THING AS GOD, EITHER PERSONAL OR IMPERSONAL. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word "God" was invented to designate the unknown cause of those effects which man has either admired or dreaded without understanding them, and SINCE WE CLAIM AND THAT WE ARE ABLE TO PROVE WHAT WE CLAIM-i.e. the knowledge of that cause and causes we are in a position to maintain THERE IS NO God OR Gods BEHIND THEM." ... Confusion in the Master Results in Confusion in the Chela. One Theosophical Society leader demonstrated why attention should be paid to understanding Eastern thought and traditions, and individual texts and persons, from reliable, historically authentic sources. He profoundly erred in identifying myself (BA G) with ..."Vedantist and Buddhist sectarian and separatist teachings".... If he had acquired any knowledge about the subject in general from clear and accurate, reliable sources, he never could have confused me with a "Vedantist." If he had any understanding of the various real-world sources and traditions involved, and had read and understood my biographical sketch on the site where his comment was posted, he would not have confused me with "sectarian and separatist teachings." I am a person who has studied deeply in numerous traditions, having a distinguished history of service in non-sectarian interfaith activism. My own teachings are anything but "separatist." As a Shiksha (instructing) Master, in a lineage of Vaishnavism from which some of the Masters' / Blavatsky's teachings have been appropriated, I have some familiarity with the Sanskrit terms they used, as found in the real ancient source works. I also have a clear understanding of the differences between some of the various schools of "Hindu" thought. As a Master in a Bhakti Yoga lineage, it is laughable to hear myself referred = = to as a "Vedantist" in such a way. One of my main criticisms of the Theosophical Society teachings is that they misrepresent teachings from genuinely ancient theistic and atheistic sources by appropriating, distorting, re-contexting and misinterpreting them. For instance the Mahatmas' teachings sometimes make use of ideas from Vaishnava traditions, but make no proper reference to the theistic thought-systems from which the ideas have been acquired. Thus the cyclic Yuga (eon / age) rounds of a finite universe, emanations from Godhead and Shakti, days of Brahma and such ideas are presented without their proper context and meaning. For example, in the authentic Vaisnava sources, the world-age Yugas are associated with the Yuga Avataras of Hari, or Krishna-Vishnu (Amitabha-Lokesvara in Pure Land Buddhism) who is the transcendent Deity, and the source of all spiritual and material realms and worlds (Vyuhas and Lokas). However the T S Masters do not properly present the relationship of the Yugas to the transcendental Deity. While there is some emanationism in the Masters' doctrines, it is not presented accurately from either the Vaishnava or Vaishnava-related earliest forms of Pure Land Buddhism. Instead, the saving Deities of other-power Pure Land Buddhism are represented more as dependent-arising products of mind and dualism. Outside of 'visualization', and the highest, subtlest material states, the Deities have no transcendent personal existence in the Dharma Kaya. However, a depth study of Northern Buddhism from India to Japan reveals the DHARMA KAYA is HRIH / HARI, the original PERSON OF THE GODHEAD IN VAISHNAVISM. Thus the Dharma Kaya was not originally a state of Buddhist extinction or non-being. But the T Masters do not represent Buddhist Voidism or Advaita Vedantist impersonalism purely either. Their "Buddhism" seems a strained synthesis of Vaishnava doctrines and the teachings of several different traditions of Buddhism. They try to associate their amalgamated Buddhist teachings with Sri Lankan Theravada, Tibetan and Zen Buddhism, this creates a strange brew when the emanationism of Vaishnavism (without its Divine source) is added to the mix. When time cycles and the days of Brahma etc. are described, the origin of Brahma (Helios Phanes) in the personality of Godhead (Narayana) is not really stressed. In these and many other cases, the Mahatmas do not deliver to their students a "clear and accurate" synthesis of ancient teachings and scriptures. In fact they seem to have had an agenda to edit-out the theistic context and content of the ideas that they used. Thus their product (the Mahatma Letters) appropriates elements from both theistic and atheistic traditions and corrupts these, forming an attempt to harmonize elements of theistic cosmogonic revelation, with modern watered-down Neo-Vedantism and an equally corrupted form of syncretistic Neo-Buddhism. by creating such a non-historical hodge- podge of spuriously 'ancient' doctrines from various mis-used sources, the Theosophical teachers render their chelas incapable of clear, accurate, rational thought involving these matters. A basic knowledge of real Indic traditions would have insured that the author who called me a "vedantist" would not have accused a Vaishnava Bhakti- Yoginof atheistic advaitan teachings by using such a loaded sectarian term. Because the Masters and other T S writers frequently confounded and merged and misrepresented Indic thought and traditions, Theosophists typically have no real grasp of the most basic truths regarding these real-world traditions. Having accepted HPB's "Reader's Digest"-like condensed version and synthesis of the wisdom traditions, they have cheated themselves out of a more direct and authentic experience of the same. Humility is Just Honesty About Oneself...The Pathology of Needing to Concoct, or Following Self-Appointed or Spurious Masters This gets to the personality development and disciplinary aspect of the issue. Why would someone who really wants to understand something, choose not to go to the SOURCE and properly discipline themself in its understanding? Why would a person prefer to speculate about something from the outside, rather than studying it up-close in a scientific, disciplined manner? The problem is that certain kinds of people cannot submit to any real-world authorities and hate to be required to live by rules of conduct and standards of behavior. They don't want to discipline their inquiry into any kind of traditional approach. They don't want to be bothered with the facts that disagree with them, and they don't want to learn anything that requires real discipline or "surrender." Such people will typically make-up their OWN ALTER- EGO AUTHORITIES to validate themselves and / or give themselves credibility with others. Thus they can play at the humility and surrender game, without ever really submitting themselves for instruction to anyone. As a result we see the endless proliferation of "humble servants" and "messengers" of the invisible or conveniently inaccessible Masters, who never really require any surrender on "their" disciple's part. The "disciple' OF THE INVENTED MASTER becomes, as a messenger of their inaccessible Master (s), the REAL GURU / Master of others, who really do desire a real-world flesh-and-blood authority. Thus we can observe the endless innovation and diffusion of new esoteric and occult "spiritualities" based on the sincere surrendered following of some people, who blindly submit to those flesh-and-blood Masters who are themselves only the "servants" of a PROJECTED authority-figure of THEMSELVES. So, the problem is not that HPB and her real-world incarnate friends assembled a syncristic thought-system from a vast number and variety of sources. The problem is that they did not have the honesty about themselves, the humility to admit the genealogy of their ideas. THIS IS THE BASIC PATHOLOGY OF THE LACK OF INTEGRITY IN "SPIRITUAL BUT NOT RELIGIOUS" GROUPS. Organized Religion is Not a Bad Thing...GSS Traditions and the Authentic Preservation and Diffusion of Ideas Meanwhile in the exoteric Great Religions, real-world masters require real-world surrender, discipline (diksha) and sacrifices from their surrendered students, but IN RETURN THEY DELIVER THE AUTHENTIC TEACHINGS OF REALLY ANCIENT AND VENERABLE TRADITIONS. "You get what you pay for" ....in this case either the intellectual and devotional heritage of centuries of exoteric traditions, or the concoctions of modern era "esoteric" cheaters. Authentic ancient traditions still living have exoteric lineages, real examinable ancient scriptures, real ancient histories and preserve the legitimate teachings of their lineages doctrinally. etc. Such traditions are the real guardians = = of ancient scriptures and wisdom. It takes a lifetime of disciplined study = = to master even a tiny bit of what such traditions have to offer. But, the proud "gnostic" or undisciplined jnani who idolizes their own brain, will not usually be attracted to a life time of study in anything really demanding of them. It is difficult to learn when one thinks that they already know everything, and has an aversion to all kinds of real authority. The proud gnostic concocter would rather be self-educated than to actually plumb the depths of anything through real surrender and disciplined inquiry with an authentic master requiring their respect. This is the pathology of the Masters-channeling New Age movement. I have seen channeling groups that are nothing other than mutual- deification societies. Every member is in an unspoken agreement to validate each other's fantacies of cosmic specialness. Receiving "messages" from their Masters, or Master Beings, the chelas reinforce their mutual fantacies of previous illustrious incarnations, being angels, aliens, demigods and goddesses etc. Thus they feed on each others' proud dishonesty and manipulativeness. Usually because there really is no other authority than themselves, surrender to these imaginary "Masters" never really requires anything of them. The Scholarly Contributions of Such self-Delude People The result of such a person's scholarly endeavors usually shows their disdain for accountability to real world history and truth, the proper citation of previous authorities and scientific methodology. Such personstypically want so-called "spirituality" without "religion." They want to master science or history or some field without being actually trained in the disciplines of that field. They tend to be masters of everything in their own opinion, but instead they are not the real masters of anything. They tend to be dabblers, who are venerated as masters by gullible people with a poor fund of knowledge. Now, in my opinion, H.P Blavatsky and her friends, were both dabblers and the actual masters of something. Their prodigious efforts and sacrifices did produce something. What they did master is on exhibit for all to see in the Mahatma Letters and other primary Theosophical Society writings. It is not that these writings have no value, but one should approach them as what they are, and not confuse them with what they claim to be, the highest authoritative teaching of the only true philosophy on earth. So What Were the Theosophical Society Masters the Masters Of ? Theosophical Society and Movement Propositions From T S Sources 1. The only true philosophy of the Earth, Theosophy identified as Buddhism, is found in the Mahatmas' Letters, and these Letters are the primary source of esoteric / occult or higher wisdom for Theosophists. Next to these letters, the "Stanzas of Dyzan" are of canonical importance to Theosophists. 2. The Theosophical Masters, authors of the "Mahatma Letters," especially Koot Hoomi, Master Morya and Serapis, are the highest authorities who have revealed themselves to humanity. 3. The Master of the Masters Koot Hoomi and Morya, is Serapis. 4. H.P. Blavatsky is the rather hidden incarnation of Serapis. 5. The brotherhood of Theosophical Masters has reincarnated throughout time, guiding the world (and evolution of the races). Thus all previous revelations, religions and advances in various fields, must be interpreted in the context of their supposed relationship to the T S Masters. 6. The priests of dogmatic or doctrinal ORGANIZED RELIGIONS have corrupted their scriptures, so it is better to read the more authentic core of teachings contained in the "Stanzas of Dyzan" and the synthesized teachings of the Mahatmas and HPB. There is no need to learn languages and study the source works themselves, as HPB has provided a clear and accurate synthesis of everything in these that is significant to study. 7. Sannyasis and Sadhus etc. are "on the path of error," and Theosophy has nothing to do with the Shastra of Brahminism. 8. Koot Hoomi / Theosophy absolutely denies the existence of God or Gods. My additional assertions... 9. There is an amalgamation of Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism with Advaita Vedantism and Vaishnava sources in the teachings of Theosophical "Buddhism." 10. Madame Blavatsky was a very intellectually gifted and educated person, who was the central figure in the whole development of Theosophy. Whether or not she wrote the Mahatma Letters with the help of corporeal or incorporeal beings, may or may not be of importance in certain kinds of analysis of the letters. The actual content of the letters can be examined in relationship to real-world ancient textual and living traditions, to see if the Mahatmas' presentations are accurate with regard to those thought-systems. Let Us Now Consider Some of the Curious Facts Related to the Specific Mixture of Kashmiri Eastern and Western Esoteric Teachings in the Mahatma Letters. In one letter KH writes to Sinnett: ..."Our best, most learned. and highest adepts are of the races of the `greasy Tibetans'; and the Penjabi Singhs -- ..."... Most of the debates that I have seen regarding the T.S. Masters have focused on the Masters' identity, the "precipitation" of their letters, H.P. Blavatsky's or someone else's medium-ship or "channeling" of their thoughts / writings, textual analysis of their letter= = s forcontemporary or near-contemporary plagiarized material, stylistic elements, language or other clues to their identity. I do not intend to address any of these things, which have all been chewed before. Rather than chewing-the-chewed, like a cow not done with its cud, I want to provide a reading of the Letters from the perspective of a person familiar with some of the source-works and traditions that the Mahatmas used and / or claimed to be representing. Ideas and the words, written and spoken, and images or symbols and actions that convey them, have history. Innovations occur and get diffused. Ideas spark social movements that wax and wane. Thought-forms, like other "things" have certain time-and-space limitations. Communication is sent and received in specific forms and languages. Each word or symbol has a content actually intended by its sender, and any number of meanings imposed on it by receivers. Scientifically- minded historians (not historical-fiction writers) want to know what was actually meant by the creators or sender(s) of a document from the past. They want to understand the successive meanings giving to an original or earlier document by later translators and commentators. They want to peel-back the layers of time, and get at the original core of an idea. Such scientifically-minded persons do not want to impose meanings on history, they want to discover the real meanings already there in history. They don't want to "massage the data" to fit into preconceived notions of history, or to support an agenda of some kind. The real lover of truth wants to understand what really happened, who the real players were, and what their motives, means and actions, and the consequences were etc. Such investigators use scientific methodologies and means of inquiry designed to safe-guard the objectivity and integrity of their efforts. They try to avoid errors by rigorously identifying their sources, to be sure of authenticity. In the case of my own studies, from the very beginning I learned of the value of interdisciplinary research from my father (a research electrobiophysicist), who taught me that errors could be avoided and facts established beyond doubt by approaching a subject or question from a multiplicity of disciplines instead of only one. Thus my studies utilized every discipline that I could bring to bear on a particula= = r question. This has given me a well-rounded grasp of the main subjects of my historical inquiries. In Theosophical sources, the Master Koot Hoomi (K H) writes about the Tibetans and Penjabi Singhs, Mr. Sinnet says that K H was a native of the Punjab, H.P. Blavatsky says that Koot Hoomi is a Pujabi, and both Blavatsky and others identify K H with Kashmir. Thus, I begin my commentary on the Mahatma Letters with this fact, because I will be focusing quite a bit on the Kashmiri-like syncristic Vaishnava, Buddhist and related content of the Letters. There is a well-established connection between the Sikhs of Kashmir and Theosophy. What people don't realize is that the Sikhs often worship in Vishnu temples, because of their close historical connection to Vaishnavism. Tibetan Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Devi worship, Sufism, Sikhism and all the branches of these traditions have their own real world histories. For example, there is a traditional date for the entrance of Padmasambhava into Tibet, and thus an eighth century AD historical beginning to Tibetan Buddhism. The Advaita Vedantism of Sri Adi Shankaracharya has a history too, as do the successive waves of Ishmali and Sufi Mohammedanism into the Punjab and Kashmir. In the Mahatma Letters there is a curious mix of Atheistic and Theistic Vaishnava, Advaita Vedanta, Mahayana and Theravadin Buddhism, Sikh and Sufi reinterpretations of Vaishnava, Shaivite and Devi teachings, and other amalgamations which can be found ESPECIALLY in the region of Kashmir. In the religious melting-pot of Kashmir today for instance, there may be found Vaishnava-influenced Muslim Sufi brahmins who do not eat flesh, Tantric-influenced Sahajiya Vaishnavas, various Sufi- Vaishnava or Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid groups, and Sikhism, which as another Sufi-Vaishnava-Shaivite hybrid religion is of course related to the Vaishnava and Shaivite Kshatriya (warrior class) of the Punjab. Thus the Sikh name "Singh" is important in this connection. Pure Land Buddhism, as originally in Nepal and Tibet, has its historical origins in Vaishnavism, and so is connected to the strange Kashmiri mix in the thread of Vaishnava doctrines and practices running through the whole region. It is from this regional melting-pot of Indic and= Western (Sufi and Gnostic) traditions that the Masters K H and Morya seem to have acquired some of their unorthodox understanding of the Sanskrit Shastras (scriptures) and to have created their hodge-podge of an eastern thought system. Whoever they were, they were masters of something, but what was that something? To assess their competence as masters of eastern traditions, one would need themself to be qualified in such traditions. As an instructing master in the Vedic-based Tradition of Vaishnavism, I am qualified to assess the accuracy of the what the masters have presented from my own tradition. Since the oldest literary traditions in the region are clearly those of the Sanskrit Vedic Vaishnava-related texts, and the Masters refer to some doctrines from these texts, then it is reasonable to assess the Mahatmas' presentation of ideas from these texts to determine their accuracy. The Example of the Rig Veda and Proto-Mahayana Buddhism For example, the Rig Veda is by all estimations very much older than the Advaita Vedantan writings of Adi Sankaracharya, the beginning of Tibetan Buddhism (8th c AD), the Era of Asoka, or even the life of Sakyamuni Buddha Himself. The Purusha Sukta Hymn is considered by many scholars to be among the oldest surviving writings of humanity. The Purusha Sukta is found in a collection of Vedic Sanskrit Hymns, the Rig Veda. These hymns glorify God under a variety of Names and Forms, as these forms have appeared from the Cosmic Body of the universal self-sacrificed Purusha, Who is described in the Purusha Sukta. In later corruptions of this monotheistic tradition, the forms of Purusha, are demoted to a mere multiplicity of "gods." Thus polytheism, pantheism etc. eventually obscured the originality and supremacy of Purusha as the transcendent supreme Deity of the Rig Veda. Purusha assumed a cosmic form for self-sacrifice to create, sustain (as sacramental food / Prasadam) and redeem every world / cosmic manifestation. In the Purusha Sukta, and related Vedic texts, it is clearly understood that Purusha is VISHNU. The Purusha Sukta is still chanted today on Vaishnava altars as the Eucharistic PRASADAM offerings are being made. Another one of Vishnu's Vedic names is Asura (from the root meaning "being," "to be, exist"). In the "Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism," R. C. Zaehner identifies the cosmic Purusha with the Zoroastrian supreme Deity Ahura Mazda (Ahura=Asura). The Jagganatha or Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha is sometimes called his Vishva Rupa or Virata Rupa. This is one of the theophanies of SRI KRISHNA that was revealed to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita, The cosmic form of God in Jewish mysticism is definitely related to the revelation of Sri Krishna in the Gita. The universal Purusha is of course identified with the Purusha AVATARA FORMS OF VISHNU. In the Vedas, Vishnu is called by many names, including Asura and Purusha. It is Vishnu Who is worshiped in multi-form in the Vedic hymns. This is the tradition of the oldest stratum of Vedic so-called "Hinduism," and all of the principle Vedic Nama-Rupa name-forms of Vishnu are found many centuries later in Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan and related Nepalese Buddhism. There the very ancient Vedic names and forms of Vishnu-Purusha AS LOKSHEVARA, are connected to Vaishnava doctrines, rites, practices, sacramental social order etc.. So the foundation of Tibetan Buddhism is in the much earlier worship of Vishnu-Purusha, without any doubt. When the entire socio-religious cultural milieu in which Sakyamuni's Buddhism first developed was Vedic-Vaishnava, how is it reasonable to assume that the pervasive elements of Vaishnavism in Mahayana Buddhism are later, intrusions or corruptions? In fact, Mahayana Buddhism, including Tibetan Buddhism, uses the very Sanskrit Names of Krishna-Vishnu for the ADI BUDDHA, who is also called ADI PURUSHA, BHAGAVAN, PURUSOTTAMA etc. To claim that a younger tradition (Buddhism) owes nothing to its origins is ridiculous. THIS IS THE SUI GENERIS nonsense of Theravadin Buddhism. The extremely ancient Purusha Sukta related Forms of Lokesvara are those of Vedic Purusha or Vishnu. The same names and forms are there in both the Buddhist and Vaishnava traditions, and this is not peculiar to the Nepalese-Tibetan form of Buddhism either. Everywhere in Pure Land Mahayana Buddhism it is the same. The names, forms, doctrines, rites etc. of the salvific transcendent other-power tradition of Buddhism are closely related to those of Krishna-centric Vaishnavism. When we look at the Sanskrit sources for the Mahatmas' Hindu and Buddhist ideas, again the oldest of these are the Vaishnava and Vaishnava-related scriptures, litanies and prayers. For those accustomed to thinking of Sanskrit literatures in terms of some generic hinduism, no such thing existed in the ancient world. Scriptures were the testimony of specific traditions, such as the sattvic Vaishnava or Shaivite or tantric Devi worshiping traditions. In the "CULT OF TARA" by S. Beyer, the original Sanskrit texts for the Tibetan Buddhist rituals of Mother Tara are given. -= -- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > I, for one, am getting tired of all your crap. What makes you think > theosophists need you (an obscure historian with a personal hatred of > theosophy who may be using this vendetta and these propaganda tactics solely > for purposes of attaining personal notoriety) to show them how to "present > their teachings to the world"? > > What hubris. It's almost sickening to what ends you will stoop to prove your > negative, prejudicial, and entirely unverifiable OPINIONS about theosophy and > its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even superficially) > or nothing at all of its actual philosophically or scientifically > unassailable metaphysical meanings, purposes, and ends in view. > > What a joke. Putting up this offer is just like your other propaganda tricks > -- since you know, as well as all of us convinced, or even student > theosophists, that there is no valid "evidence" (other than first hand > experiential reports of credible people) that can "prove" (to each of us, > individually) that the Mahatma letters are or are not "authentic," or whether > or not the Masters, or "Mahatmas" who wrote them ever existed. In theosophy, > we base all our judgments on what is said, rather than who said it. So, > whatever your so called "experts" know about Indian civilization and their > ancient religions, they can no more verify or deny the letters genuineness, > whether of its writers or their message, as they can "prove" their own > beliefs... Other than by blabbing the same worthless and prejudicial OPINIONS > about them that you have. Since when do exoteric and blind religious beliefs > have any weight in proving or disproving anything? > > The truth or validity of the Masters writings and teachings, whether in the > Mahatma letters or in the SD, can only be judged by careful study of their > inherent consistency with the fundamental teachings of ancient theosophy -- > that neither you nor your pundits can deny with any "evidence" or even by > logical arguments based on the same "fundamental principles" that the SD is > grounded on... And, which, I'll wager, all Indian philosopher/scientists = of > any honesty or integrity are in total agreement with. > > Therefore, I challenge you to come up with any "Indian" (or for that matter > any other nationality's) pundits who will be able to deny the teachings of > theosophy on unassailably valid scientific, philosophical, or religious > grounds. Accordingly, I await your posting of their valid "proofs" or > arguments (if any) in letters signed by them -- relating to the non existence > of the Masters, and/or the invalidity of the theosophical teachings. What > makes you think, after more than 100 years of just such "experts" trying to > do so, that they can do so now? > > Wake up! And, get off our backs with your specious and opinionated, > nonsensical harangues and phony, self-serving offers -- which I hope no other > theosophists will take up. (Although, I can't speak or be responsible for > anyone else but myself.) > > As a word of caution for the "other" members of "this list"... Theosophists > are wise to stay out of arguments about the validity or invalidity of > religious beliefs or metaphysics -- which is a total waste of their time = and > energy. > > LHM > ---------------------------------- > In a message dated 11/17/02 2:43:37 AM, brianmuehlbach@y... writes: > > >Let's Dallas/Daniel C. Caldwell and any other Theosophists on this list > >present there evidence the next few hours on : > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > > >It is easy for Theosophists on this list to finally show us (and the > >world ?) that "The Mahatma Letters" truly contain genuine oriental > >teachings or not. > > > >Let us just have Daniel C. Caldwell, Dallas/Dalval, Leoanmaurer, or > >however believes "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are, > >post there and we watch this for a day or two, or and all of us who think > >they have found something genuine in The Mahatma Letters post it there > >and see what the experts say to that. Anybody is llowed to post there > >. Let Daniel C. Caldwell , Dallas, and so on post whatever they want us to > >believe on "theos talk" on > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization the next day ore so. > >With more then seven hundred (exactly 707) experts in the field of > >ancient religions and civilisations on the Indian sub-continent. (Including > >Tibetologists and so on) > > > >And lets see how many of the more then sevenhundred experts there > >Daniel C. Caldwell and Dallas or however of those on theos-talk that > >believe "The Mahatma Letters" are what they claim they are can get any > >of these sevenhundred and more experts there to agree. > >Lets Dallas/ Daniel/Leon/ and so on show us they are not just crackpot- > >"believers." > > > > At least with such a large group of specialists in religions , history,= and > >archeology of the ancient Indian sub-continent (two or three ?) that > >would confirm that what Dallas/Daniel and so on want us to (bamboos > >into ?) "believing," is true. > > > >I am looking now, > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization > > > > > > > > Brian > > > >PS I will place the complete postings as of this moment until in three > >days from now appear on the subject of "the content and precipitation > >of The Mahatma Letters" (with this very title) on my website in three > >days, whatever appears the next three days on this subject. (except of > >course those posters who let me know I should not place it on my web > >site, otherwise the postings there are public domain, and of course I will > >let as soon the matter takes of on > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization place a message there > >with my intent so all there know ) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 09:35:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:35:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 52526 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:35:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:35:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:35:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 17:35:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:35:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001701c291cc$bc7f2400$23b380d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4661 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.157.126.164 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Bill: "Sorry to jump in. Please do. I have an answer and a question. Bill: "When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with Iraq is a Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty can become even richer and more powerful Right or wrong, that is a perception shared by a striking number of well informed people, including apparently some in the administration. Bill: "we might ask ourselves why the elder Bush stopped the war the first time? Nig George is on record that (1) the Saudi monarchy, with whom he has a long standing personal relationship, wanted it stopped, (2) the Arab allies would have all pulled out had it not been stopped,, and (3) he hypnotized himself into believing Iraq would fall into his hands without further ado. The British wanted to push on to Baghdad where they could kill Udey and then bag Dad. Bill: "What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on Iraq is the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he already has) and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage neighboring countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by Sadaam as more than mere diplomatic appeal. I do not believe self interest is ever far from the minds of the people formulating this policy. After all the scandals in the investment banking community anyone who would suggest taking tax money and giving it to those scoundrels is either showing extraordinarily poor judgement or something more sinister. You have probably noticed some prominent plutocrats are gettinginto investment banking, possibly in anticipation of the coming windfall. One could cogently argue that disarming Saddam is the only way to keep political control of the oil patch fragmented. But the problem of keeping dictators from acquiring WMDs is akin to the proverbial problem of filling a bucket with live frogs, Not only is every dictator in the world feverishly working to acquire these weapons, but so are terrorists and religious groups which want to eliminate the evil infidel and thereby placate their moon god. If you know the answer to that one you are smarter than I, but wars are not going to work. There are some more Draconian solutions available, but even "Rummy" Rumsfeld is not advocating those. When Saddam goes (whether by natural causes or otherwise) the next dictator will start the cycle all over again. I suspect the cold war, which was mostly fought in the dark by spies, or the current war on terrorism which is fought largely by secret ahents and law enforcement may be better models for how to solve our current problems. If you want to worry about something more worrisome than Saddam think about China. They have already put Japan on notice they want Okinawa turned over to them. They are threatening war with Taiwan. They tried to invade Vietnam twice and both times were defeated by second string troops. Vietnam is not an easy country to conquer as several ambitious imperialist leaders have discovered. They will surely lay claim to Australia and New Zealand in years to come. They have already threatened us several times with nuclear attack and are working on better delivery systems. They are not ready yet, but when they think they are there will be war. We don't know which Bush the Supreme Court will select to put in the white house when this happens, whether it will be Jeb or Silverado Neil or some other scion we have not heard of yet. But he will have to decide whether he wants to get involved or not. War in Asia is inevitable. Condoleezza Arroz is not pretending to any fantasy about "disarming" China. What is worrisome is Donald "Rummy" Rumsfeld's itch for a war there and for his desire to keep a hair trigger. It is not apparent that he is interested in negotiating anything. Time will tell whether this is all wise and works out well. To Bart: There was a discussion on NPR recently in which some of the panelists said they believed Venezuela was a target. The so called war on drugs will be used as a pretext for escalated miltary intervention in Colombia, then Colombia will be used as a base for attacking Venezuela. Time will tell whether that is true or not. You probably know the British wanted to invade Venezuela in 1899 I believe and the Germans wanted to invade in 1902 or thereabouts. In each case the US threatened war to stop it. It was the thwarting of Kaiser Bill which started the series of events which led the US into the European war in 1917. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 09:39:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:39:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 17711 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:39:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 17:39:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:39:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Steve Stubbs: A Question about Brian's claim Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 462 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.157.126.164 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Steve, > > Not too long ago, Brian Muehlbach pointed out that he has been in > correspondence/communication with you for the last year or even > longer. > > Since Brian Muehlbach has only surfaced on the WWW during the last 4 > months, can you verify that Brian has actually been in touch with you > for the last year or so? I get so much mail I don't know where it all comes from. From adelasie@surfari.net Fri Nov 22 09:39:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:39:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 24471 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:39:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:39:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:39:52 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAMHdeAb025575 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:39:45 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:39:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Adelaise on peace... Message-ID: <3DDDFB44.2020.C96D29@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <155.17bd3813.2b0f2412@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Brian, It might help others to note that the quotes you offer below are=20 taken from a discussion Paul and I had almost a year ago. Our more=20 recent exchange might indicate that we have both learned a bit of=20 mutual respect and have found that we don't differ so much in our=20 points of view of this subject after all. I can definitely say that=20 participation in this list has taught me a lot about the validity of=20 different opinions, and the value of discussion held with courtesy=20 and regard for the rights of others.=20 Adelasie On 22 Nov 2002 at 8:20, brianmuehlbach wrote: > Adelasie: But it is also possible to use the mantle of historical > investigation to try to throw dust in everyone`s eyes,=20 >=20 > Paul: I see here the pattern of leaping from "perceived implications" > to "imputed intentions" and it leads to demonization of others and > degradation of discourse. That is, =84X`s historical investigations have > the =3D >=20 > effect of making people feel as if dust has been thrown into their > eyes, therefore that was X`s intention."=20 >=20 > Adelasie: to obscure the actual essential meaning of the thing so > investigated.=20 >=20 > Paul: In all sincerity I doubt that any historian, professional or > amateur,=3D >=20 > has "ever" had any such intention. But I bet hundreds or thousands > have been so accused.=20 >=20 > Adelasie: In the case of theosophy and HPB, opposition has tried to do > this since the beginning.=20 >=20 > Paul: This is where things get very dicey. If you look at any new > historical inquiry as possibly a tool of =84opposition that has tried to > do t=3D his since the beginning," you`re (impersonal you) going to be > paranoid in your attitude toward historical scholarship. Particularly > when you start applying this suspicion to people who have absolutely > no interest or desire in harming anyone.=20 >=20 > Adelasie: There is a force called the disintegrator which attempts to > keep these teachings and all ancient wisdom from being spread among > humanity,=20 >=20 > Paul: What is the source for this? Sounds like a Theosophical version > of the devil. And to interpret others as instruments of this evil > force, tryin=3D g to prevent the spread of teachings, is no better than > fundamentalist Christians seeing scholars of early Christian history > as instruments of the=3D >=20 > devil trying to undermine the gospel. On one hand, you seem to be > saying that you don`t want to be enemies with me or anyone else with > whom you disagree on HPB; then on the other you turn around and > implicitly accuse us all of Satanic inspiration. Can you really have > it bot=3D h ways?=20 > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 22 09:46:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:46:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 39610 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:46:34 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 46867262C59 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:46:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002501c2924e$56c5c060$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <191.10acb922.2b0f45a0@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon on Dzyan and Senzar... Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:41:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all of you, Allright Leon, that was interesting. I got inspired. And like an Arjuna in The Bhagavad Gita with his hair standing on his head, and with tremling voice I dare say: Maybe this will help a little: I kept seeing Tsong Kha Pa before my eyes with the Upanishads in his hands - while he was rotating in a strange looking Tibetan "coffin". I don't know if that tells you anything ? >:-) Tibetan Diamonds..! I liked the Pie though... eehmm the PI. I still wonder what the "red circle" has to do with Tao ! Maybe it is getting cold outside... Yes even a galaxy has Karma...Weird ? Leon writes at http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html: "By the way, the basic story behind ABC was written in the "Book of Dzyan" (in the ancient "Senzar" hieroglyphic language) recorded on preserved palm leaves about 8 to 25,000 years ago (so it is said). Besides one translation into English, with commentaries (The Secret Doctrine, H. P. Blavatsky, The Theosophy Company, 1888), the original book, so I am told, is now in the hidden vault archives of a Tibetan monastery high in the Himalayas. Fortunately, I was able to find a teacher who could explain its esoteric "formulas" to me in modern scientific terms. It makes much sense. " Who was this teacher Leon ? Is that a secret ? from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Leon/Gerald . . . > Hi Mr. Sufilight, > > Everything you say is right on. And, I appreciate your candor. > > As for the poetic and artistic aspects of ABC, I've also thought of that. > Go to the following site and see for yourself: > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html > > For more ABC oriented art with a bit of meditative visualization thrown > in, see: > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/manfields.html > There is much more along these lines, but, to see them, you will have to > visit me, or read my book (if I ever finish and publish it in print -- beyond > what is already posted on the cyberworld web or in the Astral.:-) > Incidentally, most ofthe letters I write to this and all the scientific > forums > are also part of my book. > > Then go to the following site and find the links to some artistic pre ABC, > "meditation with a seed" pencil paintings made about 25 years ago > when I was wrapped up in -- but not trapped by -- the physical and astral > worlds -- that need a bit of explanation -- before you get shocked by > their candor. :-) > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/UAG.home.html > > Enjoy, > > Leonardo > > In a message dated 11/17/02 6:51:37 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > >Hi Leon and all of you, > > > >Its quite allright Leon <:-) > >What I meant was: > >When you during the past half year or so - so many times mentiones your > >(so > >very) own book when emailing - and > >your own ABC theory, where you could have chosen a different path - of > >text > >or emailing - then I see a tendency. > >And that tendency is, that it seems to me, that you stick to much with > >your > >book and your ABC -theory - more > >than it is profitable for you and others. > >And there it is i get the "Salesman" view into my mind. Not that I think > >you > >support egoism or anything like that, > >but just this view i mentioned in the above. > > > >One could suggest, that you made a theory (i.e. maybe a book) on poetry > >or > >art or the like, so that you get another view than the so very very > >scientific one. Maybe a poetic version of your ABC theory ? > >Sometimes the author sticks to his creation - the book - like glue. And > >he > >is always out to defend it, whenever he is talking or emailing with > >others, - or at least he is alert on the issue. Well, if you get my drift. > ><:-) > >Of course one - maybe - will have to defend the book from time to time. > > > >It is just that I see a tendency, nothing else. > >Maybe I am the only one. > >I know I am a little personal here, but I really honestly mean well. > >And I think that, you Leon, have the stomach for it. > > > >I will also admit, that I am a little low on the scientific versions myself. > >But, that is probably because I think the world has had to much of this, > >and > >needs reason - i.e. PEACE and not more dangerous weapons created by science > >minds, who gets facinated more than they use their common sense. > >Especially HPB was very good at throwing "common sense" in her articles, > >where she had to explain the stupid scholars what Theosophy really was > >and > >is. > > > >Have I missed the point? > > > > > > > >from > >M. Sufilight with...the best whises...and peace... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 09:49:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:49:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 72767 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:49:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 17:49:17 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:49:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Brian" and his communciations with Steve Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 505 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steve, you wrote: "I get so much mail I don't know where it all comes from." So are you telling us that you CANNOT verify that you have been in email communication with Brian Muehlbach for the last year or so? Brian has stated that he had been in contact with you for more than a year. We know you have had email communications with Brigitte since from time to time she referred to such communications and even quoted extracts from that private communication on some of these forums. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 09:53:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 17:53:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 20112 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 17:53:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 17:53:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 17:53:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 17:53:41 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:53:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Comparing Goswami's views with those of Gerald Schueler Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2416 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Comparing Goswami's views with those of Gerald Schueler In "Monads and Emptiness" by Gerald Schueler, [ http://www.schuelers.com/Theosophy/docs/monads_and_emptiness.htm ] he mentions the "divine monad". In his writings on Theos-L, Schueler has gone into much greater detail concerning his views of this "monad.' Compare his view with what Goswami writes below: --------------------------------------------------- THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND ASSOCIATED WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF THE BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY THE SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR DIRECTLY 'SEEN'. . . . THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE DOCTRINE OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREMA, DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA OR 'NOT- ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF ILLUSION DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS ONLY CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI PURUSHA IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS MADE MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND ALL THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED! ---------------------------------------------------- Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 22 10:04:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 18:04:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 9501 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 18:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 18:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 18:04:13 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id AA749263214 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:04:12 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003c01c29250$ce4a25c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:58:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Don't worry - dear readers: USA has 'themselves' delivered (it can't be proved) som viruses to Email -Virusdesigners, so your health will be "very very well"... Cyberwarfare attacks: http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,76000,00. html?f=x73 Or let us say: Be Warned. It is much more serious than we might think. Yours and even Brians mailings at Theos-talk are in danger ! >:-) A weird laugh echoes down from the Himalaya Mountains... I think I will have to meditate on that in "cyberspace or hyperspace", so to find a remedy... from M. Sufilight with a cold...and cyber-clairvoyances... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? > Well 6 months ago when I mentioned on WET that a US/Iraq war was > on the table and bin Laden was still alive, nobody wanted to believe me. > Now its al over the place. In fact it is no secret that there are at least 60 > countries contributing to the campaign, its not the US alone. > > Iraq will be made one country with Jordania (making the Palestians in > that country a minority), and the Jordanien king might be temporary > head of state untill elections are held. That for the next 6 months out, > the rest, we well only know that time. > Brian > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > > > Sorry to jump in. My ISP has been on the blink and I have missed > the last > > > 24 hours of postings. I see a thread labeled "Does anybody want to > die for > > > oil?" and I wonder "Does anybody want to die?" > > > > > > When we assign motives to others, and declare that the war with > Iraq is a > > > Bush power play to gain control of oil so that the Bush oil dynasty > can > > > become even richer and more powerful, we might ask ourselves > why the elder > > > Bush stopped the war the first time? > > > > > > What seems to be ignored in the discussions of the Bush position on > Iraq is > > > the necessity of taking a firm stand against Sadaam's acquisition of > > > nuclear, biological, and/or chemical weapons (beyond what he > already has) > > > and the delivery means to make war with and/or hold hostage > neighboring > > > countries (including SA). Such a stand has to be perceived by > Sadaam as more > > > than mere diplomatic appeal. The stand (line in the sand, if you > will) has > > > to have teeth to have effect. (At least Sadaam has to think so). > > > > > > Personally, I hope we don't go to war in Iraq. I hope the UN > weapons > > > inspectors can verify the elimination/destruction of Iraq's weapons > of mass > > > destruction. I hope that someday all such weapons will be destroyed > > > (including our own). I wish that hope alone could make the world a > better > > > and safer place. > > > > > > Bill > > Dear Bill, > > > > Glad to see you speak up. At least we share the same hope! After > hearing Bob Woodward this evening on Fresh Air describe the victory of > Powell over the Rumsfeld/Cheney Unilateralist Axis of Evil there does > seem to be some room for hope left in the the world. > > > > Hopefully, > > > > Paul > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 22 10:22:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 18:22:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 40700 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 18:22:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 18:22:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 18:22:03 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FIRH-00034R-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:22:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDE75C5.B206A1DD@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:21:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > To Bart: There was a discussion on NPR recently in which some of the > panelists said they believed Venezuela was a target. I can believe they said it, but NPR is hardly what one would call an objective source, or even anything near one. Fox News Network is more objective than NPR. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 11:17:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:17:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 73608 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:17:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 19:17:16 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:17:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Brian" and his communciations with Steve Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 456 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 65.56.122.143 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > So are you telling us that you CANNOT verify that you have been in > email communication with Brian Muehlbach for the last year or so? I am telling you I do not remember how far back in time it was Brian Muehlbach made her appearance on the scene and frankly I don't care. You put a lot of good stuff on these lists. Do you think this kind of thing is really worth your time? From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 11:24:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:24:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 96417 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:24:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:24:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:24:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 19:24:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:24:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDE75C5.B206A1DD@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 534 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 65.56.122.143 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Fox News Network is more > objective than NPR. You chose the wrong word, Bart. What you meant to say was "Fox News Network is more CONSERVATIVE than NPR." That would be a true statement. Conservative (i.e., closer to your own world view) is not synonymous with objective. Anyway, NPR did not say it. Their panelists were saying these things. The truth of the matter, whatever it is, will become more evident as time goes on and we will all see what is cooking. From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:26:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:26:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 19054 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:26:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 19:26:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:25:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1884 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 Greetings. My name is Robert Newman. I'm an American Vaishnava and a friend of Bhakti Ananda Goswami, who has been active on this list recently. My own, much less learned angle on the Mahatma Letters and Theosophy in general, focuses on the denial of the supreme personality of Godhead in this philosophy. Unlike BAG, I am not an expert in religious history, nor am I what would be called a 'practicing' member of my faith tradition. I am a seeker of the truth, plain and simple, and I take it where I find it. It's admittedly difficult to find satisfactory, reasonable metaphysics in the theistic traditions, but it's there. Most esotericists, including myself in my younger days, see the exoteric aspects of these traditions and decide that they're all nonsense. But both Vaishnavism and Christianity (the two theistic traditions that I'm most knowledgeable about) contain a similar core of esoteric content dealing with transcendence in a most intellectually and emotionally satisfying way. It behooves any sincere seeker of the truth to view theism from this higher angle, which is not only satisfying but remarkably consistent from tradition to tradition (to get a glimpse of this last point, see some of BAG's writings at http://www.saragrahi.org/columns/). Why take so much trouble? (And it is trouble, make no mistake.) Well, as one contributor to this list mentioned a few dozen posts ago, one of the criteria of truth is the testimony of credible people. There are many credible people who have testified to the personal experience of a supreme personality at the pinnacle of conscious experience. Coupled with the metaphysical rationale that intellectually gifted theists have constructed, this evidence for the existence of God cannot be simply dismissed or ignored. Well, it can, but only to one's spiritual detriment. Robert From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 22 11:36:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:36:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 96766 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:36:38 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FJbS-0000Mn-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:36:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDE873E.3C6825BB@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:36:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Fox News Network is more > > objective than NPR. > > You chose the wrong word, Bart. What you meant to say was "Fox News > Network is more CONSERVATIVE than NPR." That would be a true > statement. Conservative (i.e., closer to your own world view) is not > synonymous with objective. You misunderstand. I was not saying that Fox News was objective. I was saying that it is MORE objective than NPR. And it is certainly NOT objective. NPR is more objective than, say, Pacifica, but not much. Bart From wry1111@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:47:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:47:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 57414 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:47:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:47:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:47:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 19:47:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:47:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question for Paul about Brigitte Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2356 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Wry" X-Originating-IP: 63.11.211.104 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can start by looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I am not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, Wry --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > Brigitte . . . " > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > August of this year. > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] it > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next week > for any definitive information you can provide. > > Daniel From wry1111@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:49:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:49:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 66749 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:49:26 -0000 Received: from 1cust104.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.104] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FJnp-0007LF-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:49:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c29260$863c2700$68d30b3f@idapingala> To: Cc: Subject: Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlback OR Goswami Or his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will let you speculate on this subject when you are on vacation. You can start by looking at Bridgitte, who has told you something by giving you her so-called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in theosophy, but, in my personal opinion, the kind of behavior that is being demonstrated on this list is IMMORAL and it would be against my own conscience to behave in such a manner, as it involves duping innocent people for no good reason WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed for genuine spiritual development is the formation of a spiritual community based on honesty and a common ground of physical reality. I know I said I thought it was funny when/if Madame Blavatsky did this, but maybe it would not be so funny to the people it was happening to at that time if they knew about it. I will have to rethink my position. To the person who is doing this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. I have smelled a great big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I am not even a theosophist, and it is not my job to sort this out for you people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy. Wry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:49:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:49:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 58881 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:49:46 -0000 Received: from pool0511.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.1] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FJo6-0004uQ-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:49:42 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:45:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <26.3158adf2.2b0edaed@cs.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 23 2002 Dear John: As I see it I am a kind of a pipe and just pass along what I have learned. I also think that everyone of us ought to be doing this all around us. We all owe much if not everything to Theosophy in the final analysis. And in so considering, we have as a vision of encouragement, and looking back in historical and pre-historical time, a grand trail of great personages (which in this incarnation starts with H P B and the Masters' -- our "Elder Brothers" -- who have worked for us). We owe them our reverence, and the service, (in my esteem) we best can do, is to keep their fire burning, so others can profit also. So none can take any great credit. But thank you for the good wishes and encouragement. We need to constantly repeat, as did the Great Buddha: "THUS HAVE I HEARD......." Best wishes, Dallas ================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:57 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: MAHATMA LETTERS CONCOCTET OR NOT: THE EVIDENCE Dallas, As always, thank so much for your sharing. The personal direct experience of your life is a Treasury of Light which you share without reservation giving insight and knowledge of Theosophy in first person from your long dedicated selfless service to Mankind. I for one place the highest value on your constancy and consider it a distinct honor and rare privilege to have found this list so that I might have exposure to your unique storehouse and elder wisdom offered to those of us who are younger and less wise in years and travel. Earlier in a post someone posted the three words associated with the Mahatma "kin-t-an Na Lan da Dha ra ni", now Nalanda was an epitaph of the Buddha meaning "Insatiable in giving," so I see in you this spiritual principle in action for the last three years I have been member of this list. Your deportment, calm, quiet perseverance and giving is surely recognized by many on this list besides me. Thanks you so much for the many knowledge's only you could state from your direct personal contacts and experience. John Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:50:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:50:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 32547 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:50:03 -0000 Received: from pool0511.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.1] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FJoL-0004uQ-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:49:57 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: FW: New fields and Phenomena in Space - Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:45:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 23 2002 Re: some new kinds of Matter and forces ? Dear Friends: There are some interesting statements here. Paticularly in reference to what H P B says in S D I p. 142-3, Anew kind of Matter ? Mirror Matter? Blue Matter? Dark Matter ? A force that is slowing down the Pioneer rockets ? Curious ? We ought take note of these and see what follow-up ensues. But the questions are not answerable yet. Mainly they are observations and questions. Best wishes. Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:58 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon Of course, this is all over my head, but I did read something recently that may be relevant, -or not? Dennis ********************************** BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Mirror matter mystery Wednesday, 13 November, 2002, 14:40 GMT Mirror matter mystery By Dr David Whitehouse BBC News Online science editor Two Australian scientists believe they have found evidence of a parallel universe of strange matter within our own Solar System. Dr Robert Foot and Dr Saibal Mitra, of the University of Melbourne, report that close-up observations of the asteroid Eros by the Near-Shoemaker probe indicate it has been splattered by so-called "mirror matter". Mirror matter is not anti-matter, it is altogether weirder. It is somehow a "reflection" of normal matter, a sort of parallel series of particles required to restore the balance of the Universe. Sounds far-fetched - some believe so. However, experiments are underway to confirm or deny the existence of this strange, potentially significant but as yet undetected component of the cosmos. Cosmic balance Mirror matter is a hypothetical form of matter that restores nature's flawed left-right symmetry. Laws of nature, such as the rules that govern the interactions of fundamental particles, show a high degree of symmetry except that some laws are not the same when reflected in a hypothetical mirror. Blue dirt: Pools of dust may be impact sites This means that elementary particles display a preference for left over right. In a way, the Universe is left-handed. Why? Nobody knows. Many physicists are happy with this idea believing that in the first instants of the Big Bang everything was perfectly symmetrical. Only when the cosmos cooled did it become asymmetric, with a difference emerging between left and right. But some scientists do not accept this. They maintain that the Universe has a left-right balance because there exists "mirror matter" - for every known particle there is a mirror particle that restores the cosmic balance. Dark matter Mirror matter would produce its own light but we would not be able to see it because mirror matter only interacts with our matter via gravity. Dr Robert Foot believes that mirror matter would have been made in abundance in the Big Bang and that it is all around us but we can't see it. Mirror man Dr Robert Foot "There could be mirror matter stars, planets and galaxies out there," he told BBC News Online. "In fact, some think that the unseen so-called "dark matter" of the Universe could actually be mirror matter," he adds. "Mirror matter is perfect to explain dark matter. It's dark and can only be detected through its gravity." Dr Foot believes he has found evidence that it is here, closer than we believed, and that it had had a measurable effect on our spaceprobes. Mysterious force In October 2000, the Near-Shoemaker spacecraft lightly touched down on the 3-by-13-by-33-km (8 by 8 by 20 miles) Eros asteroid. It was the first time a probe had landed on an asteroid. Its close scrutiny of Eros revealed many strange features - such as flat-bottomed craters filled with a peculiar bluish dust, and a puzzling lack of small craters. Unexplained by conventional understanding, Dr Foot believes that mirror matter provides an answer. He calculates that small objects containing mirror matter could have struck the asteroid and left behind precisely the same scars that are seen. Indeed, he says there is no other credible explanation. He also calculates that mirror matter may explain the mysterious force that acts on both the Pioneer 10 and 11 deep spaceprobes. Distant probes Launched in 1972, the Pioneers are leaving the Solar System in opposite directions. Detailed analysis of their trajectory indicates that they are both subject to a tiny, unexplained force that is slowing them down. Dr Foot believes that mirror matter exerting a drag on the Pioneers could be to blame. Mysterious force: Pioneer 10 "How else can you explain that both Pioneers, on opposite ends of the Solar System, experience the same force pushing in the same direction?" Dr Foot asks. In a research paper to be published shortly, Drs Foot and Mitra suggest that mirror matter may even have struck the Earth. He singles out three possible events: the 1908 Tunguska impact in Siberia and low-altitude, low-velocity fireballs seen in Spain in 1994 and in Jordan in 2001. "Mirror matter could also explain these events," he told BBC News Online. Future experiments Many scientists dismiss mirror matter as wild speculation but even the sceptics will have cause for thought if the latest experiments from the European Centre for Nuclear Research (Cern) are to be believed. Experiments involving so-called ortho-positronium - an arrangement in which an electron orbits a positron (its antimatter equivalent) - show that it decays slightly faster than can be explained. This could be due, says Dr Foot, to the electrons changing fleetingly into mirror matter and then back again. Experiments at Cern and in Moscow hope to determine in the next year or so if mirror matter really does exist. See also: 26 Sep 01 | Science/Nature Asteroid's mystery 'blue ponds' 30 Jul 02 | Science/Nature Antimatter mystery deepens 06 May 99 | Science/Nature Matter or antimatter, that is the question ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:00 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World fields - to Leon > > In a message dated 11/16/02 5:01:28 AM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: > > > > >Leon you say: > > > >"All causal relationships between fields should be > >determined by analogy and correspondence - since all > >fields are interdependently originated from a common > >non-local zero-point center and are "in coadunition > >but not in consubstantiality."" > > > >Could you please elaborate on your definition of a > >field? > > > >Cheers, mic > > With respect to my ABC theory, such "coadunate but not consubstantial fields" > are electrically coenergetic spherical hyperspace regions, like bubbles > within bubbles within bubbles, etc. -- that are analogous in their various > stages or levels of substantiality or frequency/energy phase (or "order") to > the scientific "field" of the lowest order 3-dimensional physical, "metric" > or observed space, which is defined as follows: > > "A region of space characterized by a physical property, such as > gravitational or electromagnetic force or fluid pressure, having a > determinable value at every point in the region" (American Heritage > Dictionary) > > Such coenergetic hyperspace "fields" are identical to the seven fold (or > more) involved "fields of action," "planes," or "states of consciousness" > described by HPB in the SD. For a visualization of the involution of such > fields, see the symbolic cross sectional energy flow diagrams at: > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht ml > > LHM > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 11:50:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 19:50:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 61067 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 19:50:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 19:50:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 19:50:06 -0000 Received: from pool0511.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.1] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FJoR-0004uQ-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:50:04 -0800 To: "Theosophy Company" Subject: RE: What is new PATANJALI Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:46:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nov 23 2002 Thanks Rob: Welcome to PATANJALI on the Phoenix Web site. I=92ll go visit right away. I can use that on my computer for immediate reference. Dal -----Original Message----- From: Theosophy Company [mailto:phxultlodge@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:03 PM To: ultinla@Juno.com Subject: What is new THE YOGA APHORISMS OF PATANJALI An Interpretation by WILLIAM Q. JUDGE in book form and pages numbered http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/yoga.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 22 12:24:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 20:24:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 42016 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 20:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 20:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 20:24:26 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E58CD48086C for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:24:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003d01c29264$638c01e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Comparing Goswami's views with those of Gerald Schueler Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:18:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Love is NOT negative. Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. Everything has come from God. There is nothing except God. Nature is God's manifestation. The cosmos is the embodiment of God. There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. God is the immanent power in everything. God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is inter-dependent and inseparable. The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its understanding. The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, established. All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - is a manifestation of the ATMA. In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. What you see is ATMA. What makes you forget is also ATMA ! The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the truth about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that mirror, God results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or individualised self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and to secure. When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is the result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as its reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms and combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of the many is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of the One; by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into many. But the One is ever One. Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of God. The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our preferences and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue picture of BRAHMAN. It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our reasoning process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, and on man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the nature of the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom of Maya. Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya produces Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the Vidya that araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is destroyed through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are destroyed when the fire ends ! Love is our nature. Love is all. Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. Love alone makes lige meaningful. Live in Love. When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary are spouriuos and missing the mark. Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. Develop love by sharing it. Love is the basis for Self-discovery. The end of knoeledge is Love. Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the heart is true love. We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. Love lead you quickly to the Goal. Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. Love wins against all evils. Love is patient when needed. Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. Love is NOT negative. from M. Sufilight....in the Atmic trance... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: Theos-World Comparing Goswami's views with those of Gerald Schueler > Comparing Goswami's views with those of Gerald Schueler > > In "Monads and Emptiness" by Gerald Schueler, > [ http://www.schuelers.com/Theosophy/docs/monads_and_emptiness.htm ] > he mentions the "divine monad". In his writings on Theos-L, Schueler > has gone into much greater detail concerning his views of > this "monad.' Compare his view with what Goswami writes below: > > --------------------------------------------------- > THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD > REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST > INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND ASSOCIATED > WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF THE > BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS > CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE > LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE > REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND > IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY THE > SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH > THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME > PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR > DIRECTLY 'SEEN'. . . . > > THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST > HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE DOCTRINE > OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF > HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREMA, > DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA OR 'NOT- > ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI > PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI > SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF > MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF ILLUSION > DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS ONLY > CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD > AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO > ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE > LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI PURUSHA > IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS MADE > MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND ALL > THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED! > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Daniel > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bilmer@surfsouth.com Fri Nov 22 12:30:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 68577 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta04.durocom.com) (216.53.195.241) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.175.110]) by fl-mta04.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021122203034.MJZO29962.fl-mta04@default> for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:30:34 -0500 Message-ID: <003801c29266$8c6f0240$6eaf80d8@default> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:34:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? > Bill: "Sorry to jump in. > Steve: Please do. I have an answer and a question. > It was quite an answer, but I must have missed the question. :) From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 12:33:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 20:33:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 54453 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 20:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 20:33:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 20:33:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 20:33:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:33:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1734 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 65.56.122.143 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" wrote: My > own, much less learned angle on the Mahatma Letters and Theosophy in > general, focuses on the denial of the supreme personality of Godhead > in this philosophy. Unlike BAG, I am not an expert in religious > history, nor am I what would be called a 'practicing' member of my > faith tradition. I am a seeker of the truth, plain and simple, and I > take it where I find it. Theosophy does not deny that there are deities. What it denies is that the supreme reality is personal. This position is also taken by esoteric Christianity in one of its lineages. I refer to the Basilidean school which claimed to trace its teachings to the esoteric teaching of Matthias and Peter. A sp,ewhat different interpretation, also ultimately non-theistic, is seen in the lineage which was first disclosed to the public by Valentinus, but which claims to represent the esoteric teaching of Paul. Paul, being clearly a Kabbalist, taught an esoteric doctrine which resembles the modern Kabbalah in many ways, although of course it represented a historically earlier strata of evolution. I am not a Hindu, but my reading of THE VISHNU PURANA is that that document also teaches an ultimately impersonal supreme reality. Personal deities such as Indra were apparently yogis who transcended the human condition by means of their practice, which did not, as many people think, consist merely of reading magazine articles about Theosophy. Siva, as lord of yogis, seems to have been a yogi at one time. Babaji, who is godlike if anyone is, was clearly a yogi some 1700 years ago. The Adwaita Vedanta does not teach that supreme reality is personal. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 12:42:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 20:42:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 72771 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 20:42:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 20:42:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 20:42:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 20:42:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:42:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003801c29266$8c6f0240$6eaf80d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 721 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 65.56.122.143 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > It was quite an answer, but I must have missed the question. :) I abridged it and seem to have edited that out. My question was, does anyone know a practical way of protectng us from the proliferation of WMDs which is unlikely to stop. Setting aside the question of whether it does or does not make sense to attack Iraq, it is hard to believe an endless series of wars will solve the larger problem. That's what I meant by filling a bucket with frogs. If there is a solution and it is not Draconian in character, it would seem there are so many frogs one would have to have a less expensive and cumbersome way of dealing with each one than war. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 13:06:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 21:06:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 32642 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Jerry Schueler on Goswami's "Three God-Realizations" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6436 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:12 [From Jerry Schueler who posted this message on Theos-L.] Subject: [. . . the three god-realizations] <<>> Daniel, I do not know who Goswani is, but he is apparently Indian and is coming at this from either a Hindu or Vedanta direction, I am not sure which. You can post my comments anywhere, but my comments are more Theosophical and Buddhist. I hope no one takes offense. I offer them in a spirit of love and of sharing information and ideas. <<>> I agree with the three kinds of spiritual realization. But the use of the word God here is an assumption that I do not agree with. I see "god realization" as a reification of an impersonal principle (Goswami even calls Brahman "impersonal" here and most people, myself included, interpret the word "God" as being a personal deity) in that I personally do not see any God in my own meditations and Buddhism assures me that there are none. Brahman is said to be the creator of our universe, and is usually considered to be a god. But Brahman is a name for all those collective creative and karmic forces that generated the lower portion of our Earth planetary chain. In short, Brahman is a collective that created globes A though G on the lower four planes. Union with Brahman is a union with our samsaric universe, a lower mystical experience in which the whole world (physical, astral, mental, and causal) is seen as one huge networked/interconnected living organism. <<< EXPERIENCE OF THE BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION.>>> Blavatsky makes a clear and unequivical distinction between Brahman, the personification of creativity within manifestation, and Parabrahman, a non-dualistic Ground totally outside of dualistic manifestation. The "first rung" is with Brahman, not with Parabrahman. <<< THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, >>>> I agree that the second rung is paramatman. Blavatsky puts atma or atman on the 2nd or 3rd planes depending on her context, so that paramatman is on the first plane. The first rung has to do with a union of the four lower planes. The second rung has to do with the union of the upper three planes. But Paramatman is not a "personal holy spirit" by any stretch of the imagination. It is rather a collective spiritual subjectivity in which all monads in manifestation share alike and partake in. I have dubbed the existent on the first plane the I-Not-I Monad, mainly because Blavatsky never mentions it but goes directly to the atma-buddhi monad, which is lower. Paramatman is the I in the I-Not-I Monad. It is the link between the nondual Monad and atma which is dualistic. The first and second rungs, call them god-realizations or mystical experiences or samadhis or whatever, are still in duality, which is why a third is necessary. <<>> I have never heard the term "bhagavan realization" before, but whatever we want to call it, it is an experience of non-duality, a union of the nondual Monad with Beness. There is a difference between the nondual Monad and the I-Not-I Monad in that the former is non- dualistic while the latter is in duality. The former has no parts, while the latter has three (subjectivity, objectivity, and their interconnection which Blavatsky calls Fohat). <<>> I am not sure what to make of this paragraph. The idea that God deliberately hides himself in maya out of his great love for us is yet one more creation myth/story that attempts to explain why and how we are all here. And it too makes assumptions, and it too is logical only within those assumptions. However, the reference here to "Buddhists" is to Hinayana Buddhism and not to Mayahayana Buddhism which knows very well about the two forms of maya. Mahayana Buddhism teaches that all 7 planes are maya, that spirit and matter are two aspects of the same substance and that substance itself is mayavic. I doubt very much that "all questions are answered" or can ever be. What happens in mystical experiences, or god-realizations for those who find it necessary to posit a deity, is that the questions themselves are seen in these experiences to be based on false assumptions and so they simply go away rather than be logically answered. There are no logical answers to the why and how of creation outside of unprovable assumptions. Jerry S. From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 14:08:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 22:08:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 73447 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 22:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 22:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 22:08:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 22:08:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:08:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2567 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: >>> The Adwaita Vedanta does not teach that supreme reality is personal. Correct. But Adwaita Vedanta is but one interpretation of Vedanta. If you are interested, I refer you to the philosophy of Ananda Tirtha Goswami, better known as Madhvacharya or Madhva, who lived and preached around the 12th century in India. Better I think than anyone before or after him, he pointed out the logical fallacies in the Adwaita Vedanta of Shankara and promulgated his own system, called (somewhat imprecisely) Dwaita Vedanta. Vedanta itself, i.e., the Brahma Sutras of Badarayana, like the Upanishads of which they are a synthesis and concordance, contains statements that can be interpreted such that the supreme reality is described as either personal or impersonal. Shankara is the most famous of the impersonal interpreters, while Ramanuja and Madhva are the best-known in the personal camp. But this is somewhat beside the point, and perhaps you were aware of all this already. The ultimate proof of the existence of anything is direct experience. It boils down to the personal experience of certain highly advanced souls who have testified that the ultimate reality is indeed personal. You may point out, correctly, that there are at least an equal number of highly advanced souls who testify the opposite. BUT THERE'S THIS DIFFERENCE, AND THERE'S NO REFUTING IT, UNFORTUNATELY FOR ADHERENTS OF ADWAITA VEDANTA: Those who have experienced and described the supreme personality invariably have also experienced and described the impersonal aspect of absolute reality, and they state from their direct experience of both that the personality is the ultimate aspect. Those who have only experienced the impersonal aspect, by definition, are in no position to judge between them. It is as if a group of mountain climbers who have scaled Mt. Whitney claim that it's the highest mountain in the world, while there is a group that has scaled both Mt. Whitney and Mt. Everest, and know very well that while Whitney is awfully high, Everest is considerably higher. In general, when a person offers positive testimony (i.e., that such-and-such exists), it logically supersedes the opposite negative testimony (such-and-such does not exist). Indeed, to say that something (or someone) does not exist can never be proven either empirically or logically. Why would anybody believe it, if there is any credibility at all in the positive viewpoint? Beats me. Robert From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 15:12:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 23:12:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 34938 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 23:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 23:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 23:12:49 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.51] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FMyc-00021A-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:12:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDEBA43.1F17DA49@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:14:11 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Monad/God/Higher Self . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <> Yes, "God" seems to have been interpreted in so many different ways. And there seem to be so many different interpretations for the "Monad" and "Higher Self" of Theosophy, too. And some of us may prefer to assign God, Monad, Higher Self into different categories, say (all in dualistic terms, in some cases?), but I suspect that Mahayna Buddhists, by definition, distinguish between dualistic notions and non-dualistic ones, and esoteric and exoteric. If theists prefer to use the word "God" instead of, say, the "non-dual Monad" of Mahayna Buddhism, then those who prefer the latter might wonder (?) how such theists approach/interpret whatever they define as "God." In any case, I suppose we all tend to lean toward whatever seems most meaningful to us. Speculatively, Mauri From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 15:29:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 22 Nov 2002 23:29:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 31751 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 23:29:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Nov 2002 23:29:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 23:29:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Nov 2002 23:29:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:29:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1538 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.246.135.173 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" wrote: > THERE'S THIS DIFFERENCE, AND THERE'S NO REFUTING IT, > UNFORTUNATELY FOR ADHERENTS OF ADWAITA VEDANTA: Those who have > experienced and described the supreme personality invariably have > also experienced and described the impersonal aspect of absolute > reality, and they state from their direct experience of both that the > personality is the ultimate aspect. That is true if they are devotees of the dualistic (Dwaita) school. Those who study in my school (i.e., Zen) insist that anything which has form is intrindicsally illusory and that the ultimate reality is necessarily formless and void. One must therefore press on from any experience which has form until one arrives at the formless. The tesimony of hese masters is the opposite of the ones you quote. The teaching of the Buddha was that the personal deities of the Hindus may exist, but that they are not enlightened and therefore cannot assist others in attaining what they have not themselves attained. For them to try to confer what they do not have would be the ultimate application of the axiom that those who cannot do teach, or the blind leading the blind. Sankara's system is clearly Buddhist in origin and Sankara himself was referred to as a crypto-Buddhist. Ultimately the only thing that matters is the experience, though, and not the theory. Anyway, thanks for your interesting comments. Yes, I have read the VEDANTA SUTRAS (otherwise known as the BRAHMA SUTRAS). From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 16:13:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 00:12:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 15076 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 00:12:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 00:12:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 00:12:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 00:12:52 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:12:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: >>> That is true if they are devotees of the dualistic (Dwaita) school. Those who study in my school (i.e., Zen) insist that anything which has form is intrindicsally illusory and that the ultimate reality is necessarily formless and void. One must therefore press on from any experience which has form until one arrives at the formless. The tesimony of hese masters is the opposite of the ones you quote. No, with all due respect (to them and to you), it is NOT the opposite. Opposite in this case implies "of equal force but contradictory," and I maintain that the testimony of the masters of whom you speak, being essentially negative, cannot be of equal force with the "opposite" positive testimony. Putting my position in terms similar to yours above, for clarity, I would express it as, "There is a level or plane of consciousness characterized by form and personality (different in kind, of course, from the material forms and personalities with which we are familiar on this earthly plane), which is the ultimate stage of spiritual evolution. There is nowhere to "press on" to from there, nor can there be any possible incentive or even dream of doing so, once this stage is reached. Those who have described this ultimate plane have also clearly described the plane of absolute formlessness, devoid of personality (i.e., beyond all earthly forms and personalities), and these descriptions tally with the descriptions of the Adwaita masters who claim that that is the ultimate level. >From the vantage point of the plane of formlessness (please excuse all this crude terminology, but by avoiding technical terms I hope to make myself clearly understood by people of many backgrounds and levels of understanding), the plane of ultimate form I mentioned is unknown. But from the latter vantage point, the former IS known. If the credibility of the givers of the two types of testimony is similar, logic demands the preference of the more inclusive version. Q.E.D. Robert From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 16:31:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 00:31:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 83524 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 00:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 00:31:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 00:31:21 -0000 Received: from pool0616.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.190.106] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FOCc-0005jZ-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:31:19 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:27:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 22 2002 Dear Robert: How would you classify the presentation Mme. Blavatsky makes at the beginning of The SECRET DOCTRINE ? Let me paraphrase it: I'm sure that Nature (or the Universe as a WHOLE) came up with that a good long time ago. The idea was, as I grasp it: The ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL ONE (Parabrahman) wanted to know itself and therefore needed a "mirror." [ There is this most ancient Vedic verse: "Desire first arose in IT which was the primal germ of mend; and which sages, searching with their intellect, have discovered in their heart to be the bond which connects Entity with non-Entity," or Manas with pure Atma-Buddhi -- S D II p. 176, T. Glossary p. 171 ] IT agreed at that most remote period to divide itself into two sections 1. SPIRIT or PERFECTION; and 2. A "material" ( or substantial but temporary 'form') whereon to try to see (or evoke) its own reflection. [ Suddha Sattwa" ? ] That primordial matter/substance was almost but not quite SPIRIT -- As experience accumulated it served as a "memory" to record it, and that memory became known as WISDOM or ( Buddhi). However the interaction between PERFECTION and "almost Perfection (Buddhi) required an intermediary that could see and understand both. UNIVERSAL MIND (or Mahat) was born -- able to see past, present and future, and able to assume either a supreme idealism or involve itself in the grossest limits of form. A "Ray" of this universal MIND is present in every Monad or "life-atom" in illimitable SPACE. Mankind represents now (as I grasp the concept) the median aspect of "Mind." It can like the God Janus, look both ways: past and future, while living in the present. It has to be free to enable choice to be free. It can look at ideals and it can look at the selfishness of isolation and self-interest. This dichotomy forced the birth of Kama-deva. The "god" of pure desire of universal love, compassion, charity and mercy for all. This universal concern may be translated "Brotherhood." An excess ( loss of balance) of love brings on tyranny. A lack of brotherhood brings on the mismanagement of procrastination and inertia. Thus in opposition to ideals and "virtues" there came "vice" upon the scene. Does this not describe our situation? The Thinking instrument -- Mind -- needs contrast and a foundations of constancy in order to establish a basis or a platform. This platform (where we are in the here and now) includes memory, new thought, and anticipation. Anticipation is valuable to preview potential benefits or losses which may accrue to us depending on whether we are able to so some judicious choosing. But even anticipation will be found to be based on memory of past experiences of an analogous character. The main problem is : Are we (as MIND-BEINGS) independent? Are we partially independent? Are we interactive with others and are there any limits to this interaction situation ? Further do we actually share in the regulation and the laws of the universe? Have we been able to establish some idea of what those Laws might be ? If there are some ( as in mathematics, chemistry,. physics astro-physics, mechanics, etc...) then why should the life and interaction of the human family be devoid of law? As to "God" If we personalize this concept we dwarf it. In reality it has no "Form." If we give one mentally to IT, we make it in our mind smaller than the Universe or illimitable SPACE. If we perceive that the DIVINE PRINCIPLE is universal, we admit that it is everything and cannot be separate from or different from anything in Nature (the Universe.) We as well as everything else are included. God is within each of us, as well as in all else. How then will we, as immortal spiritual beings, treat other immortal spiritual beings ? It is quite fruitless to discuss individual views about "God." They are the result of self-limited ideas and premises. If we examine such premises, we soon discover where the restriction arises. If we use the BIBLE, then we soon realize by going to its SOURCES, that the translations which we so commonly use, are very poor renditions of the original teachings of the Jews and the Kabalists -- or of some other philosophy -- therefore to use our present BIBLE as a basis is only productive of a continuing error. Once we eliminate that, then discussion becomes agreement on principles of universality and of co-existence. Everyone is found to be :"right" once we go back to SOURCES. And that is what Theosophy seeks to demonstrate. If we were to limit our concepts to "Manifestation," we might envisage a UNIVERSAL BEING -- a "Spiritual Entity" -- whatever that might be. But there is the problem of Non-manifestation. Surely "God" is there also -- in which case, we may think of "God" immanent (omnipresent) in manifestation, but we are forced by logic to conclude that Non-manifestation demands that "God" be immortal and transcendent. Such a God as DIVINITY or SPIRITUAL EXCELLENCE can never "die" or be eliminated. It (HE) is present in each of us, as also in every 'atom" and in everything else. If we debate, we are only arguing for or against OURSELVES. This eliminates debate. All debates concern limitations. DEITY is timeless and unlimited. IT IS. If "God" is unlimited and permanent, then a philosophy based on its ALL-PRESENCE, and EVER-BEING has to be Theosophy. It is also ALL-KNOWING. (Omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience.) Curious if true. Best wishes, Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: rnewman2003 Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 11:26 AM To: Subject: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Greetings. My name is Robert Newman. I'm an American Vaishnava and a friend of Bhakti Ananda Goswami, who has been active on this list recently. My own, much less learned angle on the Mahatma Letters and Theosophy in general, focuses on the denial of the supreme personality of Godhead in this philosophy. Unlike BAG, I am not an expert in religious history, nor am I what would be called a 'practicing' member of my faith tradition. I am a seeker of the truth, plain and simple, and I take it where I find it. It's admittedly difficult to find satisfactory, reasonable metaphysics in the theistic traditions, but it's there. Most esotericists, including myself in my younger days, see the exoteric aspects of these traditions and decide that they're all nonsense. But both Vaishnavism and Christianity (the two theistic traditions that I'm most knowledgeable about) contain a similar core of esoteric content dealing with transcendence in a most intellectually and emotionally satisfying way. It behooves any sincere seeker of the truth to view theism from this higher angle, which is not only satisfying but remarkably consistent from tradition to tradition (to get a glimpse of this last point, see some of BAG's writings at http://www.saragrahi.org/columns/). Why take so much trouble? (And it is trouble, make no mistake.) Well, as one contributor to this list mentioned a few dozen posts ago, one of the criteria of truth is the testimony of credible people. There are many credible people who have testified to the personal experience of a supreme personality at the pinnacle of conscious experience. Coupled with the metaphysical rationale that intellectually gifted theists have constructed, this evidence for the existence of God cannot be simply dismissed or ignored. Well, it can, but only to one's spiritual detriment. Robert From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 17:01:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:01:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 18394 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:01:40 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-06-41.look.ca ([216.154.46.41] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FOfw-0006IV-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:01:37 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDED3C1.F7462342@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:02:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Adwaita Vedanta, interpretations . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <> Right. Interpretations have to do with duality, and duality is mayavic. Speculatively, Mauri PS And because duality is mayavic, I prefer to keep my distance, as per "my speculative stance," not that . . . From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 17:15:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:15:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 54505 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:15:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:15:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:15:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 01:15:27 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:15:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1807 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 Dear Dallas, The first part of your posting (before "As to God") is peripheral (at best) to the point I'm trying to make. But I'd like to reply to certain statements in the second part. >>> If we personalize this concept we dwarf it. On the contrary, if we depersonalize it we sterilize it. "Dwarf" has a material connotation that's inappropriate when discussing transcendental matters (i.e., transcending our notions of physical space). >>> In reality it has no "Form." If we give one mentally to IT, we make it in our mind smaller than the Universe or illimitable SPACE. Again the terminology connoting material size is inappropriate. But a more important objection here is that there is a distinction between an object and our mental image of it. Whatever mental image of God we have, God is not that, and so God cannot be limited by our mental constructs. >>> If we perceive that the DIVINE PRINCIPLE is universal, we admit that it is everything and cannot be separate from or different from anything in Nature (the Universe.) This is an expression of the immanent/transcendent dichotomy, over which many philosophical battles have been fought. Those who have seen directly have described God's situation as BOTH immanent and transcendent simultaneously, in a manner that's probably inconceivable (at least, I've never been able to conceive of it satisfactorily). But "inconceivable" is not at all the same as "impossible." >>> It is quite fruitless to discuss individual views about "God." They are the result of self-limited ideas and premises. Yes, if they're based on speculation. But I'm speaking of direct experience of God. You may accept or not accept the testimony of witnesses, but such testimony is categorically different from speculation. Robert From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 17:20:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:20:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 41670 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:20:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:20:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:20:29 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.1] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FOyA-0002kS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:20:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDED82F.F626F3FA@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:21:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: * From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <<> Robert, some of us might be curious about the specific sources, titles, publishers, etc., you are getting that info from . . . Speculatively, Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 17:23:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:23:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 70151 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:23:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:23:48 -0000 Received: from pool0509.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.189.254] helo=earthlink) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FP1O-0000Jo-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:23:46 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:19:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 22 2002 Theism and Philosophy Dear Friends: If one tries to secure from Theosophy an outline of the way it views and teaches the basic concepts of manifestation and evolution, one also acquires the ability to disentangle special interpretations and even sectarian definitions from the facts. The accounts of the past, traditions, legends, mythology and theogonies can be disentangled and their essence perceived. If one uses the 7-fold study of the PRINCIPLES of Nature and Man, one soon realizes that ATMAN the SUPREME SPIRIT is all-pervasive. Hence it is in NATURE the basis for the many kinds and types of beings and forms that emanate infinitely from the ONE UNIVERSAL and all-encompassing FORM. Further this form does not dissipate, but remains as a "background" to all existence regardless of space, degree of intelligence, or time. Therefore the potential "GOD" is always within every individual. That which separates us from our own inner DIVINITY is the kind and quality of our ideas about our life and its many restrictions. The existence of Sages, Rishis, Dhyanis, Buddhas, merely tells us the tale of successful Monads who have caused their individual "self-consciousness" to rise to the level of "UNIVERSAL SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS." They see the Universe and the powers that motivate evolution, not only as great masses of beings, races, rounds, globes, sub-races, etc..., but down to the seemingly most insignificant individual. No one being or form or Monad is useless or to be discarded in the purview of the whole purposive drive of LIFE'S EVOLUTION. DIVINITY AS A FINAL GOAL IS FOR ALL. The "Theosophical MONAD" is seen to be SPIRIT / MATTER in indissoluble combination -- and this is "eternal" in existence, so far as we can understand. [ The "matter" side is of course BUDDHI, or that "wisdom acquired through experience" in a myriad of forms by reason of reincarnation, and the limits we imposed in the past on ourselves by Karmic choices.] Its purity allows it to become the "vehicle" of ATMA. The important thing for us to consider is: "How does Buddhi (matter) become pure?" What is purity? We then enter the question of ethics, morals, and self-chosen behaviour. This confronts us now, but it is the key to the future we choose for ourselves. ATMA being universal, permeates all, but is 'remote' so to say, from any limited involvement. BUDDHI as the purest form of "matter," is deemed wise, because it is the final repository of all experience over an immensity of years. It is in effect the MONAD in evolution. With BUDDHI is associated MAHAT, or the "mind faculty." it is essential to all living things and provides the logical, reasonable basis for the definition of all "forms." It forms the "bridge" between the "forms" that change, and the one SPIRITUAL FORM that never changes: PARAMATMA. The eternal and inscrutable ABSOLUTE. But what are the "forms?" Why do they constantly change locations? How is it possible to have an INTELLIGENCE which serves as a point of aggregation for other living Monads -- monads of lesser experience? Theosophy states that the whole of the Universe is made up of Monads in various stages of their own evolution. Those who have less experience aggregate around those with greater experience that are consubstantial to them. They then acquire from the "advanced" Monads more experience as those make choices -- and become subject to Karma. To us, limited to thought and observation in this present life, of but a relatively few years, the question of size and of time (space, area, size, and antiquity, novelty and the potential of a dissolution of the present for soon to occur) is important. Instead of thinking about these things, we start emoting and feeling about them. In so doing we lose our equipoise as immortals, and our detachment, and impartiality as tinkers. That these are important is to be seen in the instructions all great Sages have left us. The BHAGAVAD GITA is a good example. We see there the "Great God" Vishnu/Krishna (as Atma/Buddhi, the HIGHER SELF) using a seemingly physical form. He instructs Arjuna his pupil (the Lower Manas that aspires to Buddhi-Manas and an understanding of true living and right choosing). All of us at present are in a condition where the "Lower Manas" (Kama-Manas) the mind bonded by feeling and emotion, is active. The teachings of the Buddha and of Jesus, although framed in a different language and mode, parallel all that Krishna teaches. And it will be found that theosophy teaches the same set of principles, but, in addition provides us with a view of the underlying purposes and operation of Nature and the Universe as a life-supporting WHOLE. In regard to every aspect of this wonderful "mechanism" there are almost endless explanations. Each dove-tails into the rest as the "mechanism" is living, sentient, and educative. One of the great differences between all the sectarian and philosophical apparent differences is that they analyse along their own chosen lines and selected areas of perception. Inevitably the lose sight of the WHOLE. Theosophy on the other hand, uses the power of synthesis, whereby apparent differences are reconciled in the widest and most comprehensive views of why the Universe exists, and where each individual member of it ( and Monad) is going. It further indicates that for any one period of manifestation there is a common goal which for lack of some better term may be called THE GOAL OF SUBLIME PERFECTION. Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs To: Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed --- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" wrote: My > own, much less learned angle on the Mahatma Letters and Theosophy in > general, focuses on the denial of the supreme personality of Godhead > in this philosophy. Unlike BAG, I am not an expert in religious > history, nor am I what would be called a 'practicing' member of my > faith tradition. I am a seeker of the truth, plain and simple, and I > take it where I find it. Theosophy does not deny that there are deities. What it denies is that the supreme reality is personal. This position is also taken by esoteric Christianity in one of its lineages. I refer to the Basilidean school which claimed to trace its teachings to the esoteric teaching of Matthias and Peter. A sp,ewhat different interpretation, also ultimately non-theistic, is seen in the lineage which was first disclosed to the public by Valentinus, but which claims to represent the esoteric teaching of Paul. Paul, being clearly a Kabbalist, taught an esoteric doctrine which resembles the modern Kabbalah in many ways, although of course it represented a historically earlier strata of evolution. CUT From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 17:33:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 53869 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:33:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: re Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DDED82F.F626F3FA@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 671 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., Mauri wrote: >>>Robert, some of us might be curious about the specific sources, titles, publishers, etc., you are getting that info from . . . Rightfully so, and I will provide such information on request. But I would like to take this opportunity to point out that when Bhakti Ananda Goswami brought up the identical issue of sources in regards to Madame Blavatsky, the reactions from most members of this group were far from reasonable and respectful, as one would expect from a group of sincere spiritual seekers. Or perhaps what's good for the gander is not good for the goose in this case? If so, why not? Robert From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 17:47:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 61064 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:47:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1077 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 64.236.243.31 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: >>> Theosophy on the other hand, uses the power of synthesis, whereby apparent differences are reconciled in the widest and most comprehensive views of why the Universe exists, and where each individual member of it ( and Monad) is going. I'm sorry, but from this long (and very well-written, thank you) explanation, it appears to me that Theosophy, far from reconciling differences widely and comprehensively, achieves synthesis via mere reductionism, not different in principle, though certainly very different in details, from mechanistic science. A real synthesis would include, and not dismiss as merely sectarian and traditional (though much of it certainly is), the vast storehouse of theistic experience to which I have already alluded. Dallas, the view of the universe you have described is beautiful, but so is quantum physics, and neither of these systems constitutes an all-embracing view of life. But if it works for you, I'm the last person who would try to pry you away from it. Peace, Robert From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 19:00:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:00:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 47193 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:00:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.250] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 03:00:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:00:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Personal experiences of a Supreme Personality Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4293 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Robert, Thanks for your various comments. Hopefully they will make readers on this forum think more deeply about some of the undelying issues. Let me give you in turn some food for thought. In one of of your emails, you state: "There are many credible people who have testified to the personal experience of a supreme personality at the pinnacle of conscious experience." And in another posting, you write of "those who have experienced and described the supreme personality. . . . " Again you write: "I'm speaking of direct experience of God. You may accept or not accept the testimony of witnesses, but such testimony is categorically different from speculation." But have you ever considered that these testimonies might include an element of "hallucination" or "delusion"? BELOW are four excerpts from the Mahatma Letters presenting what looks like this point of view: Excerpt 1: ". . . every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world and becomes an active entity by associating itself - coalescing, we might term it -- with an elemental; that is to say with one of the semi-intelligent forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence, a creature of the mind's begetting, for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the original intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus, a good thought is perpetuated as an active beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a world of his own, crowded with the offsprings of his fancies, desires, impulses, and passions. . . ." Koot Hoomi Excerpt 2: "Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents [elementals?] around them [the devotees of various religions]. . . . The unprogressed Planetaries [elementals?]. . . delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are Dhyan-Chohans and 'Chohans of Darkness,' not what they term devils but imperfect 'Intelligences' who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere no more than the 'Dhyan Chohans' have and who will never belong to the 'builders of the Universe,' the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. . . . As all in this universe is contrast . . . so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the 'Ma-Mo Chohans' -- and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship. . . . " Morya Excerpt 3: "Vainly do your modern seers and their prophetesses, creep into every cleft and crevice without outlet or continuity they chance to see; and still more vainly, when once within do they lift up their voices and loudly cry: 'Eureka! We have gotten a Revelation from the Lord!' - - for verily have they nothing of the kind. They have disturbed but bats [elementals, unprogressed Planetaries?], less blind than their intruders; who, feeling them flying about, mistake them as often for angels -- as they too, have wings! Doubt not, my friend: it is but from the very top of those 'adamantine rocks' of ours, not at their foot, that one is ever enabled to perceive the whole Truth, by embracing the whole limitless horizon." Koot Hoomi Excerpt 4: Stainton Moses, a "seer" and medium of the 1880s wrote: ". . . my inner spirit-sense is opened. Only yesterday . . . Imper [ator] . . . was clearly visible and audible to me. . . . " To this comment by Stainton Moses [S.M.], Koot Hoomi wrote: ". . . So is Jesus and John the Baptist [clearly visible and audible] to Edward Maitland; [who is] as true and as honest and sincere as S.M. . . . And does not E. Maitland see Hermes the first and second and Elijah, etc. Finally does not Mrs. [Anna] Kingsford feel as sure as S.M. with regard to + [Imperator] that she saw and conversed with God!! . . . And who purer or more truthful than that woman or Maitland! Mystery, mystery will you exclaim. IGNORANCE we answer; the creation of that we believe in and want to see. . . . " Some food for thought. Daniel From micforster@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 19:03:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:03:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 18042 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:03:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:03:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:03:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20021123030329.33411.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.5.123] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:03:29 PST Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:03:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: acoustic hologram - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <6b.25ef074.2b0b73b8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Leon, Is the concept of an acoustic hologram consistent with your ABC theory? Regards, Mic Forster __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From samblo@cs.com Fri Nov 22 19:04:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:04:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 60631 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:04:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:04:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:04:09 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.3b.301c5d19 (4584) for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:03:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3b.301c5d19.2b104a1c@cs.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:03:56 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Does anybody want to die for oil? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Having missed both the Question , and the Answer I have become comma-tose Lol , John From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 22 19:21:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:21:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 17546 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:21:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:21:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:21:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 03:21:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:21:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Images of the Supreme ---- Thought Forms??? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 851 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In his book "THE COSMIC WOMB: An Interpretation of Man's Relationship to the Infinite," the metaphysican Arthur W. Osborn writes: "Images of the Supreme, although taken for the Ultimate by some simple devotees, are more readily explicable as projections, either individual or communal, of doctrinal beliefs concerning Krishna, Christ, Kali or other personalized aspects of Deity. We say 'communal' projections because any religious symbol, which perhaps for centuries has become a focus for devotion, could assume concrete reality. Occultism provides some striking instances of the power of group thinking to create 'thought forms' of sufficient intensity to become 'objects' of perception. Centers of energy would seem to have been formed on some superphysical plane capable of exercising influence in physical affairs. . . ." p. 59 From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 19:37:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:37:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 25370 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:37:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:37:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 03:37:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:37:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1875 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.157.116.226 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" wrote: > Those who have described this ultimate plane have > also clearly described the plane of absolute formlessness, devoid of > personality (i.e., beyond all earthly forms and personalities), and > these descriptions tally with the descriptions of the Adwaita masters > who claim that that is the ultimate level. First I want to thank you for the most interesting comments I have seen on this list in some time. Regrettably, if these masters have "described" their experience then the experiences afe necessarily phenomenal in character, else they would not be describable. People who have experienced the ultimate reality are unable to give any descriptions of it because the experience cannot be stated in phenomenal terms. That is the meaning of the Chinese Zen maxim: "He who knows does not speak He who speaks does not know." As Blavatsky riht said, the Absolute can only be "described" in negative terms and the word "described" really cannot be properly used in this context. That said, I am not contending that people do not have experiences of personal sort. When I chant the Babaji mantra I have no difficulty "seeing" Babaji standing before me in my mind's eye with eyes closed. That is rather odd because I find it impossible to maintain any other image in my mind for the twenty minutes or so required to chant the mantra 108 times. However Babaji would be the first to insist that his phenomenal appearance is just that and not ultimate reality. Blavatsky contends, and others concur in this, that your experiences of "God" are actually experiences of youu Higher Ego or buddhi-manas, which is that part of tour Higher Self which resides in your body. This experience is of great value, but it is not proof tat the ultimate reality if personal and phenomenal. From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 19:59:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 03:59:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 72082 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 03:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 03:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 03:59:16 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-14.look.ca ([216.154.45.205] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FRRp-00088u-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:59:13 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDEFD67.931C76A7@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:00:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Eldon's wise words . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: * From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Eldon wrote: <> While there may be much sense/relevance in what you wrote in that post, Eldon, I'm wondering if there's a substantially less dual perspective (as per atma-buddhi?) from which such "sense making" and our dualistic world might seem, in comparison, as if they were the twitterings of birds . . . Not that . . . Speculatively, Mauri From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 20:11:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 04:11:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 88658 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 04:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 04:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 04:11:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 04:11:22 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:11:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Personal experiences of a Supreme Personality Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1129 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 66.214.137.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: >>> But have you ever considered that these testimonies might include an element of "hallucination" or "delusion"? That possibility must always be considered, or else any number of acid-heads would have to be canonized. ;-) This is where the issue of credibility comes in. And maybe I should have elaborated before, but by credibility I don't mean merely confidence that a person is not lying, but that he or she is not hallucinating or psychotic either, nor describing phenomena such as those described in the excerpts you provided (with which, and with Theosophy as a whole, I have no quarrel except insofar as it presumes to be all-embracing and ultimate). But by delving deeply into the biographies, and particularly the autobiographies, of both Eastern and Western mystics, both theistic and atheistic, and bringing to that study a familiarity with both conventional and esoteric psychology and metaphysics, one can distinguish with a high degree of confidence between hallucinations and genuine experiences of transcendence. Robert From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 20:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 04:28:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 14472 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 04:28:01 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-20.look.ca ([216.154.45.211] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FRta-0006Ei-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:27:54 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDF0420.7EBF4941@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:29:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Robert's theism . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <> While there may be much "real enough" sense/relevance, from various perspectives, in what you wrote in that post, Robert, (and in your apparent stance re theistics?) I'm wondering if there's a substantially less dual perspective (as per atma-buddhi?) from which such "sense making" and our dualistic world might seem, in comparison, as if they were the twitterings of birds (from our mainstream perspective). . . Not that . . . Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 22 20:50:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 04:50:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 76253 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 04:50:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 04:50:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 04:50:11 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-20.look.ca ([216.154.45.20] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FSF6-0002lD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDF0957.C3DFAC11@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:51:35 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re theism, Robert, and . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <> Yes, "ditinguishing" between this and that is going on in various ways. While there may be much "real enough" sense/relevance, from various perspectives, in what you wrote in that post, Robert, (and in your apparent stance re theistics?) I'm wondering if there's a substantially less dual perspective (as per atma-buddhi, say?) from which such "sense making" and our dualistic world might seem, in comparison, as if they were the twitterings of birds (from our mainstream perspective?). . . Not that . . . And (apparently enough?) one's theistic stance, as well as one's speculative stance, (and stances in general?), are based on various edits and "not that's," so, in a sense: what else is new . . . Speculatively, Mauri From robertnewman@earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 21:00:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 05:00:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 33825 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 05:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 05:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 05:00:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 05:00:06 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:00:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1547 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 66.214.137.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: >>> Regrettably, if these masters have "described" their experience then the experiences afe necessarily phenomenal in character, else they would not be describable. People who have experienced the ultimate reality are unable to give any descriptions of it because the experience cannot be stated in phenomenal terms. This is simply begging the question; i.e., assuming what you have not yet established. At least since the time of Shankara (and his Western counterparts), there has been a popular tendency in esoteric circles to think, "Well, OF COURSE the ultimate reality must be featureless and undescribable!" But there is no logic here, unless it's the logic of suicidal negation; i.e., since our present reality is so troublesome to us, and since it's characterized by all kinds of phenomena and features and personalities, the ultimate reality, which is the best and highest, must have none of that. It's like a man with chronic nausea who hates to eat, even though he must eat to stay alive, and thinking that to be healthy must mean never having to eat. He doesn't know anything about the pleasure of eating when the body is healthy. Similarly, the simple negation of experience is the poor man's view of ultimate reality, and it is contradicted by the reports of mystics, especially in the Vaishnava tradition, of features or "phenomena" of a different order, to be sure, but still describable, at least in outline, in familiar terms. Robert From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 22 21:24:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 05:24:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 15677 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 05:24:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 05:24:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 05:24:09 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.18d.11a5ee30 (3972) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:24:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18d.11a5ee30.2b106af2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:24:02 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/15/02 12:10:55 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > I don't believe it EVER was well-intentioned. If you read the debates >over the early drug laws, they were quite explicitly aimed at bigotry. A >major anti-marijuana campaign was started by, at one end, Prohibition >agents who saw their jobs disappearing, and, at the other end, organized >crime who had just lost a major profit source. The drug laws ever since >have been designed not based on how dangerous the drugs are, but how >much more likely are minorities to use the drugs. You left out the lobbying of the cotton industry that didn't like the competition from the hemp growers (Levi Strauss used to make hemp jeans that lasted four times longer than the ones made today)... And, we shouldn't downplay the lobbying of the bonded liquor industry -- since marijuana "reefers" (especially in the deep south) was eating into their profits after the repeal of prohibition. Also, the tobacco industry didn't like the possibility of losing their monopoly for the legal sales of an addictive drug... Since, before the criminalization of marijuana and licensing of hemp growing (for seed purposes only) -- it could be homegrown by anyone, was less costly than tobacco, and usually was offered free (in New Orleans bars, for example) -- since getting mildly high on a non addictive "soft" drug like marijuana, not only makes patrons more relaxed, into the music, and less obstreperous, but also hungry and thirsty, and helps sell more beer and food. ;-) In addition, police departments, who have considerable political pull, also used their influence to add more "prohibitions" or forbidden private activities to the criminal blotter -- since, such criminalization increases their workloads, leads to more overtime pay, not to mention more support personnel, which inevitably results in higher salaries at the command levels. In 1937, when marihuana was anathematized by federal law, Mayor Laguardia of New York City argued for its legalization, since he rightfully predicted that if the government didn't leave unrestricted at least one non-addictive, low level psychoactive drug -- which, according to his commissioned scientific reports on marihuana, was relatively harmless, as well as pacifying -- it would contribute to the increase in ALL drug prices and, consequently, result in a much greater increase in drug related criminal activities, along with an increase in hard drug induced violent street crime. This Mayoral attitude was probably why, until the 90's, when a right wing "Drug War" oriented Mayor took over, the NYPD were very lax in enforcing the laws against casual use of marihuana. Since then, the price of street marihuana in NYC has skyrocketed. See: The Laguardia Report and other Drug Studies at: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/lag/foreword.htm http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/studies.htm Even today, there is very little scientific evidence that marihuana is any way near as as harmful to one's health as legal prescription drugs like diet and sleeping pills, or addictive "foods" like sugar, which, used in excess, can lead to debilitating diseases like hypoglycemia, diabetes, heart failure, etc. -- or recreational drugs like alcohol which, in excess, leads to liver damage -- or painkillers like Tylenol and aspirin that could lead to kidney disease or internal bleeding. In fact, cannabinoids, the psychoactive chemicals in marihuana, have been proven useful as pharmacological agents for the relief of glaucoma, the reduction of nausea for patients on chemotherapy, and possibly have many other useful medical applications yet to be tested. As for supposed harm to heart and lungs from "smoking" marihuana -- the average "pot head" uses less than one rolled "joint" a day, as compared to tobacco smokers who need more than 20 or 30 cigarettes a day to statisfy their addiction. It's not the "drugs" in the cigarettes that are physically harmful, but the tars and chemical oxides from the smoke that can cause cancer and/or interfere with metabolic processes. The argument that smoking marijuana leads to the use of more dangerous 'hard" drugs, is as ridiculous as saying that drinking milk leads to drinking beer. LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 22 21:27:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 05:27:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 18966 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 05:27:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 05:27:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 05:27:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.134.17f89c51 (3972) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:27:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <134.17f89c51.2b106bd1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:27:45 EST Subject: Re: PART iii THEOSOPHY AND THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/16/02 8:40:29 PM, dalval14@earthlink.net quotes from the writings of HPB: >As an emblem applicable to the objective idea, the simple triangle >became a solid. When repeated in stone on the four cardinal points, it >assumed the shape of the Pyramid -- the symbol of the phenomenal >merging into the noumenal Universe of thought -- at the apex of the >four triangles; and, as an "imaginary figure constructed of three >mathematical lines," it symbolized the subjective spheres -- those >lines "enclosing a mathematical space -- which is equal to nothing >enclosing nothing." Because, to the senses and the untrained >consciousness of profane and scientist, everything beyond the line of >differentiated matter -- i.e., outside of, and beyond the realm of >even the most spiritual substance -- has to remain for ever equal to >nothing. It is the AIN-SOPH -- the No-THING. In answer to the speculations of Mauri (and the Wisdom of his Buddhist philosophizing guru) who question the "existence" of the zero-point as the center of abstract AND phenomenal "space" and all spaces in-between -- which must contain the noumena and be the efficient source of both phenomenal (experienced) consciousness and matter, yet is empty of any form or dimension, and therefore, is no place and someplace, outside and inside, nowhere and everywhere in our non-physical and physical Cosmos -- study this statement! Compare it with HPB's statement above. And, THINK! Then, answer these "food for thought" questions: Is the geometric center (zero-point) of a turning wheel moving linearly through phenomenal space in the same manner as is a point on the circumference -- or not? If not, is it in non linear, circular motion (spinning) -- or not? If so, is this angular motion equivalent to the "abstract motion" of absolute space -- or not? Does it (and its spin motion) have any physical dimensions -- or not? Is it existent in both "absolute SPACE" as well as in "phenomenal space" -- or not? If not, where does it exist -- as the starting place of all that is, was, or ever will be? Is it, in itself, an "Eternal Reality" -- or not? Does it have at least as much potential Force in it as the Universe has mass/energy -- or not Is the concept in our mind of the existence of the zero-point an "illusion" -- or not Is EIN-SOPH a zero-point -- or not? Does the zero-point EXIST as the starting or "Absolute SPACE" of all emanation of the lines of force that involve into the seven fold coenergetic fields that are the changeable and temporary, yet cyclically repeating playgrounds of all our states of consciousness in "phenomenal space"? -- or not? Are these states REAL when we experience them -- or not? Are the noumena of these states in the zero-point, REAL (i.e., existent) -- or not If all phenomena in the universe is subject to their opposites, is the emptiness of the zero-point the opposite of the fullness of its noumenal Force (or spinergy) as well as the fullness of the Cosmos (or mass/energy) -- or not? Does the initial light that radiates out of the absolute zero-point travel much faster than the light (c) that radiates from of the physical "Big Bang" zero-point (Einstein's "singularity") -- or not? Is the Scientific, Philosophical, and Religious knowledge (as inseparable and interrelated, factual realities) i. e., knowing who and what we are, where we came from, where we are going, and how we get there, necessary to be thoroughly examined and understood intuitively in equal measure, or synthetically -- for theosophists or any followers of religious dogmas to achieve enlightenment, SELF realization, and attaining adeptship -- or not? Is the "Scientific" knowledge, verifying the unity of all things important as the foundation for theosophy's "Religious" (moral-ethical) convictions -- or not? LHM (P.S.; There's no need to answer these questions -- except to the satisfaction of your higher Self -- who already knows. ;-) From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 21:29:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 05:29:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 54155 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 05:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 05:29:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 05:29:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 05:29:11 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:29:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Daniel C. Caldwell's Hat-Tricks attempt to circumvent Mahatma Letter issue. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 555 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Jerry is not a member of theos-talk. Calwell snipt some litle pieces out of following article. I am contacted Jerry and suggest people whait with commenting on Daniel C.Caldwell's "Jerry Schueler on Goswami" until Jerry Schueler himself, posts an answer following posting wherin the quotes Daniel C. Caldwell removed and separated from their source, posted on other lists, see: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/genealogy.html --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: >Jerry Schueler on Goswami From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 22 21:54:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 05:54:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31512 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 05:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 05:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 05:54:02 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FTEw-0007DH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:54:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDF17E4.B363B97D@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:53:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: War on Drugs References: <18d.11a5ee30.2b106af2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > You left out the lobbying of the cotton industry that didn't like the > competition from the hemp growers (Levi Strauss used to make hemp > jeans that lasted four times longer than the ones made today)... And, > we shouldn't downplay the lobbying of the bonded liquor industry -- > since marijuana "reefers" (especially in the deep south) was eating > into their profits after the repeal of prohibition. Also, the tobacco > industry didn't like the possibility of losing their monopoly for the > legal sales of an addictive drug... I also didn't mention that one of the "legitimate businesses" heavily invested into by organized crime was the timber industry, mostly the farmed timber for paper pulp; they didn't want the cheap, high-quality paper that could be made from hemp available. > Even today, there is very little scientific evidence that marihuana is > any way near as as harmful to one's health as legal prescription drugs > like diet and sleeping pills, or addictive "foods" like sugar, which, > used in excess, can lead to debilitating diseases like hypoglycemia, > diabetes, heart failure, etc. -- or recreational drugs like alcohol > which, in excess, leads to liver damage -- or painkillers like Tylenol > and aspirin that could lead to kidney disease or internal bleeding. I believe it, though I'll never find out for myself. I'm literally allergic to marijuana smoke (eyes turn bright red, start burning, bad cough, etc.), and would support laws prohibiting PUBLIC consumption of marijuana. But, as far as what someone does in the privacy of their own home, I think that the drug laws are an abuse of government power. And, quite frankly, I see just as many liberals supporting the "war on drugs" as conservatives. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 22 22:40:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 06:40:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 74181 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 06:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 06:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 06:40:23 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.120.19d98f4c (3972) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:40:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <120.19d98f4c.2b107cd4@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:40:20 EST Subject: Re: [bn-study] The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity -addendum To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For those interested in theosophical correlation with modern science, some added clarifications [Maurer] are added below in response to the idea that quantum physics, while partially in agreement with theosophy, can be used to explain theosophical metaphysics and consciousness. In spite of such claims, most physicists are still wrong in using as their presumptive basis the idea that everything begins with and is caused by matter, including consciousness or awareness, and that quantum particles are the basis of the "information" the universe needs to construct itself by random interactions. >[Helena Blavatsky] >The Secret Doctrine establishes three fundamental propositions: - >(a) An omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on >which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of >human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression >or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought - in the words >of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable". > >[Peter Mutnick] >If the source of the complementary pairs of opposites is not this type >of plenitude, then the alternative is a cheap defective universe. This is >the impression that many have of complementarity and the Copenhagen >Interpretation, but it is a misconception on their part from the outset. [Maurer] Unfortunately, while the Copenhagen Interpretation attempts to explain the complementary pairs of opposites, it starts from the wrong end with the assumption that the there is neither a zero or an infinity in the universe, and that matter, starting with the quantum particle is the fundamental cause of all phenomena -- including consciousness and will. This is in direct contradiction to Blavatsky's teachings. > >[Blavatsky] >To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the >postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, >conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause - dimly formulated in the >"Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy - is the >rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be". It is of course devoid >of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, >finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, *Sat*), and >is beyond all thought or speculation. > >[Mutnick] >The penetration of the Unconscious leads to the implicate order as the >true Mind of the Observer. The Unknowable is the foundation for the >implicate order as the noumenal back-ground. The Infinite and Eternal >Cause = the God of Spinoza = the Implicate Order of Bohm. [Maurer] Close, but not a bull's eye. These ideas attempt to explain the duality between consciousness and matter with labels that have no connection with actual reality, but simply justify the reductive approach of quantum physics that sees the universe from the outside in and can only measure its "observable" physical properties. The true mind of the observer, is the lowest energy phase field that is part of the first triple field emanation of the primal zero-point spinergy. Thus, the primal mind (Mahat) is the "explicate" order as contrasted with the "implicate" order of the initial ideational field that gave birth to it -- which in turn, gives birth to the ensuing fields of progressively denser astral and physical material forms (as fields within fields within fields . . . , etc.). >[Blavatsky] >This "Be-ness" is symbolized in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. > >On the one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, >the one thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, >or conceive of by itself. On the other hand, absolute Abstract Motion >representing Unconditioned Consciousness. > >[Mutnick] >The primary pair of conjugate variables are enunciated in 1888! Moreover >a possibly profound meaning is given to them. [Maurer] Yes. The profundity is that the fundamental basis of everything is a duality that is completely opposite -- in that one extreme is entirely unconditional (and always remains a zero-point of pure emptiness) and the other is completely conditional (and thus changeable in infinite possibilities of fields of lawful action based on the fundamental laws of abstract motion -- without initial inhibition). >[Blavatsky] >Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable >to us apart from change, and motion best symbolizes change, its essential >characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality is also symbolized by >the term "The Great Breath", a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further >elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine >is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE - BE-NESS - symbolized by finite >intelligence as the theological Trinity. > >It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are given >here. Herbert Spencer has of late so modified his Agnosticism as to assert >that the nature of the "First Cause", which the Occultists more logically >derives from the "Causeless Cause", the "Eternal", and the "Unknowable", >may be essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up >within us; in short, that the impersonal reality pervading the Kosmos is the >noumenon of thought. This advance on his part brings him very near to the >esoteric and Vedantin tenet. > >Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute >Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned >existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But >once we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality >supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, >Subject and Object. > >[Mutnick] >This Absolute Consciousness is the same discovered by Edmund >Husserl through the phenomenological reduction. It is discovered by >everyone who turns their attention inward and asks in sincerity, >"Who and What am I?" But this cannot be done casually or even >necessarily through an act of will. Husserl said only that one should >perform the phenomenological reduction at least once during one's >lifetime. It is a peak experience and the experience of a lifetime. >Zen adepts often had two experiences: one an initial Kensho; >and later a complete Enlightenment. > >[Blavatsky] >Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not >as independent realities, but as two facets or aspects of the Absolute >(Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether >subjective or objective. > >Considering this metaphysical triad as the Root from which proceeds all >manifestation, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. >I is the *fons et origo* of force and of all individual consciousness,and >supplies the guiding intelligence in the vast scheme of cosmic Evolution. On >the other hand, precosmic root-substance (*Mulaprakriti*) is that aspect >of the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. >Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so >pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades >of its differentiation. > >[Mutnick] >Substance and Ideation have to do with the State Vector and its Reduction. [Maurer] Here, Mutnick takes a big jump and ignores the separation between information as an overlay of the wave nature of matter, and assumes that information, as pre-cosmic ideation, is a function of the quantum particle that has a state vector and can be reduced to a wave. But the wave itself is not the ideation -- which is simply the "information" encoded by the holographic interference patterns carried by the wave, and that, later, has to be decoded and experienced directly by the zero-point center of conscious awareness (or unconscious, from an instinctive psychological POV). This particulate or digital treatment of ideational information, is what leads the AI computer people to think that once they can design a digital computer using a neural network configuration as complex as the brain, it will become conscious. How ever, this is a wrong view, since conscious experience, being the inherent nature of the zero-point center of spinergy (the root of matter or mass/energy and the carrier of ideational information) can never be a derivative of, or explained by secondary properties of matter, such as quantum effects of mass/energy transformations or interactions. >[Blavatsky] >Hence it will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the >Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe". Apart >from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual >consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle of matter that >consciousness wells up as "I am I", a physical basis being necessary to >focus a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain level of complexity. Again, >apart from the Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty >abstraction, and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. > >[Mutnick] >Clearly applicable to the State Vector and its Reduction. [Maurer] Not so clearly. Since State Vector and its Reduction is just a mathematical metaphor related to but not causative of the experience of consciousness from a quantum physics point of view. Actually, HPB says, "Apart from the Cosmic Ideation . . . , etc." -- implying that this information is separate from the Cosmic Substance that "carries" it. Therefore, since this wave nature *carries* the "contents or images of consciousness" as the modulations of its cyclic wave nature -- when the "certain level of complexity" is reached (in a brain structure *informed* by this ideation) -- an *awareness* of such images, or "consciousness will emerge." This "emergence" is not a function of the physical properties of the substance or matter, but is the result of the union between the zero-point of focus of a *separate* mind field ray that can decode the holographic information carried by the material substance's electrical wave nature and its analogous em field. Quantum physics completely ignores this "separate" mind field -- although Superstring/M-brane theory clearly indicates the possibility of such enfolded hyperspace fields >[Blavatsky] >The "Manifested Universe", therefore, is pervaded by duality, which is, >as it were, the very essence of its EX-istence as "manifestation". > >[Mutnick] >EX-istence = explicate order. [Maurer] Again Mutnick completely ignores the "duality" HPB speaks of -- which implies an unbridgeable separation between matter and consciousness. Of course, this does correspond with the "implicate" order and "explicate" order posed by Bohm and explained by Whitehead. But, even they were unable to make a connection between the nature of multidimensional reality emanating out of a zero-point singularity, and the assumptions of quantum physics that every apparent duality is the result of the particle/wave duality of matter. Such an empirically reductive outside-in view can never reach an understanding of the fundamental zero-point emptiness of absolute consciousness (awareness) or the infinite fullness of the configurations of the material substance it experiences. In addition, by itself, it could never understand how the experience of consciousness is dependent on the descending series of "coadunate but not consubstantial" mind-memory hyperspace fields in between this basic duality. >[Blavatsky] >But just as the opposite poles of subject and object, spirit and matter, are >but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized, so, in the >manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject >to object. > >This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by >the occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the >"Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature". > >Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from >the other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all >manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through >the Dhyan Chohans, the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or >Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the >several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualized and attains to >self- or reflective - consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, >is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle >electrifying every atom into life. > >[Niels Bohr] >"Actually, ordinary language by its use of such words as thoughts and >sentiments, admits typical complementary relations between conscious >experiences implying a different placing of the section line between the >observing subject and object on which attention is focussed. We are here >presented with a close analogy to the relationship between atomic phenomena >appearing under different experimental conditions and described by different >physical concepts, according to the role played by the measuring instruments. > >In fact, the varying separation line between subject and object, >characteristic of different conscious experiences, is the clue to the >consistent logical use of such contrasting notions as will, conscience >and aspirations, each referring to equally important aspects of human >personality." (Niels Bohr, "Physical Science and the Study of Religions", > >1953, in TPWNB, Volume IV, pp. 159-60) > >[Mutnick] >Fohat as the mediator of subject and object is more than the "aspects of the >human personality" which are products of varying placements of the split. > >Fohat actually synthesizes the opposites (complementary pairs) in a way that >is not yet understood. THIS IS A PRIMARY KEY TO THE SCIENCE OF THE 21ST >CENTURY! IT EXPLAINS THE DYNAMIC ACTION OF WILL IN A UNIVERSALLY >CREATIVE SENSE. > >[Maurer] >Too bad, Mutnick, while he sees the quantum correlation's with the >fundamental principles, can't see that, since Fohat manifests as the primary >field of electrical energy in its threefold aspects, that the link between >the opposites (fullness-emptiness, sleeping-waking, light-dark, etc.), as >well as the idea of "complementarity" depends solely on cyclic laws, and is >mediated by holographic field interference patterns overlaid on and carried >by the fundamental frequencies of the primal mind and memory fields -- >linked to each other by their coadunate zero-point centers of universal >awareness and will. > >[Blavatsky] >The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. >(1) The ABSOLUTE; the *Parabrahm* of the Vedantins or the one Reality, >SAT, which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. >(2) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, >*unmanifested* Logos, the precursor of the "manifested". This is the "First >Cause", the "Unconscious" of European pantheists. >(3) Spirit-Matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe", Purusha and Prakriti, >or the *second* Logos. >(4) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World-Soul; the >Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and >of Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. >The ONE REALITY; its *dual* aspects in the conditioned Universe. > >Further, the Secret Doctrine affirms: - >(b) The Eternity of the Universe *in toto* as a boundless plane; periodically >."the playground of numberless Universes incessantly manifesting and >disappearing", called "the manifesting stars", and the "sparks of Eternity". >"The Eternity of the Pilgrim"* is like a wink of the Eye of Self-Existence. > >*"Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our "Monad" (the two in one) during >its cycle of incarnation. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in >us, being an indivisible part of the integral whole - the Universal Spirit, >from which it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the >cycle. When it is said to emanate from the one spirit, an awkward and >incorrect expression has to be used, for lack of appropriate words in >English. The Vedantins call it Sutratma (Thread-Soul), but their explanation, >too, differs somewhat from that of the occultists; to explain which >difference, however, is left to the Vedantins themselves. > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 00:18:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 08:18:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 73756 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 08:18:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 08:18:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 08:18:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 08:18:53 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:18:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: THE SYNTHEIC CONTENTS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <120.19d98f4c.2b107cd4@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 17435 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Although Blavatsky in waking state is indeed famous for her anti-Jewish=20 and anti Christian tirades. Did anybody ever use the online search=20 engine of the Mahatma Letters to check Bible related expressions ? =20 In any case Blavatsky wrote regarding the "Key to Theosophy" that: "this book was not written for Russia-the only country where the pure=20 ideal of Christ is still preserved=85it was written for pseudo-Christian=20 countries like England and America." H.P. Blavatksy ( Collected Writings, vol. XII, 348-349.) Maria Carlson in "=D4No Religion Higher Than Truth=D5" in fact claims tha= t =3D=0D Russian Theosophists looked as much to Tolstoi, Dostoevskii, and=20 Vladimir Solovi=D5ev for inspiration as to the Bhagavad Gita or the=20 Upanishads .=20 If such was the case, there seems no reason to believe that Blavatsky=20 herself - a confirmed slavophile - was not similarly drawn. And the above again confirms the synthetic nature of "The Mahatma=20 Letters" and modern "Theosophy" as a whole. I already provided evidence for in my recent posting the facts listed in=20 there (below) hatt-trick artists like Daniel C. Caldwell, Leon Maurer or = =3D=0D Amerman (who complained I did not reply to his polemic e-mails!) of=20 course would not be able to reply to in full:=20 The belief in reincarnation prevalent in certain in Neoplatonism, was=20 largely eclipsed during centuries of Christian hegemony, and reentered=20 the Western history of ideas with the revival of interest in the Kabbala.=20 The transmigration of souls or gilgul became a major doctrinal element=20 with the sixteenth century school of Isaac Luria (1534-1572). Luria's own=20 doctrines were basically an esoteric teaching reserved for the initiated,=20 and were set down in writing by his disciples. Lurianic texts were=20 translated from Hebrew into Latin by Christian Knorr von Rosenroth as=20 part of his Kabbala denudata, published in three volumes, the first two in = =3D=0D 1677-78 and the last in 1684. Francois Mercure van Helmont (1614- 1699), believed that the doctrine of transmigration of souls could be=20 made the cornerstone of a universal Christianity: by this means, the=20 souls of individuals who had lived in the wrong time and place to have=20 heard of the Gospel would have a chance of salvation. Van Helmont in=20 turn influenced Anne Conway who openly defended transmigration.=20 A more influential attempt to formulate a melioristic view of=20 reincarnation was undertaken by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (1729-1781)=20 toward the end of his theological and philosophical essay Die Erziehung=20 des Menschengeschlechtes, published in 1780.", Lessing sees the history=20 of mankind as a story of ever greater insight and perfection. Earlier=20 religions had merely been didactic instruments, preludes to a truly=20 humanitarian faith. Historically, Judaism and Christianity have been the=20 two great educating influences on mankind. However, the next step in=20 the spiritual evolution of humanity would soon take place. This tripartite = =3D=0D scheme of history resembles that of Joachim of Fiore and the=20 Joachimites, and Lessing implicitly credits them with the theory of three=20 ages. Soon to have an influence also on Blavatsky.=20 Belief in reincarnation soon took the leap from the pages of=20 Enlightenment philosophers to the seance rooms. Thus by 1790, a small=20 proto-spiritualist circle in Copenhagen led by the brother-in-law of the=20 Danish king Christian VII, prince Karl of Hessen-Kassel, had been=20 instructed in a reincarnationist doctrine resembling that of Kant and=20 Lessing by a voice speaking from a white cloud. The wife of the Danish=20 minister of foreign affairs, Auguste von Bernstorff, who was one of the=20 five members, was proclaimed to be an incarnation of Mary Magdalene.=20 It would take another six decades before the belief in reincarnation=20 spread from such small groups of occultists and freethinkers to a=20 somewhat larger audience of religious seekers. The basic mechanism of=20 belief-the intervention of spiritual entities-would remain remarkably=20 unchanged for another century.=20 Jean-Baptiste Willermoz conducted sessions with a talented=20 somnambule, asking her questions to which, with the aid of the spirit=20 world, she was able to give authoritative answers which were recorded=20 in detail. The first documented afterlife beliefs of the mesmerist milieu=20 are notes dating from 1785, which are infused with Christian mythology:=20 the dead go to heaven, hell or purgatory; or alternatively, their destiny=20 will be decided on the day of judgement. (N. Edelman Voyantes,=20 guerisseuses et visionnaires en France 1765-1914, 1995, p. 23. ff)=20 Kardec adopted the method introduced by Willermoz, Le livre des=20 esprit's was reprinted in numerous editions, other spiritists adopted his=20 beliefs, and reincarnation became part of the canonical doctrines of the=20 French spiritist movement.=20 Two discursive strategies are central to Kardec's work. The first is the=20 reliance on revealed truth. Kardec's book of more than 470 pages does=20 not refer to a single contemporary printed source or spokesperson. At=20 most, the reader that belief in reincarnation has existed since times=20 immemonal among the Pythagoreans, Hindus and Egyptians.=20 The rhetorical strength behind this strategy is hardly in doubt: every last= =3D=0D =20 detail recorded in Le livre des esprits is directly taken from the dictatio= =3D=0D n=20 of the spirits. The form of the book reflects this method: it is basically = =3D=0D a=20 pastiche of Christian catechisms, with Kardec's questions followed by the=20 spirits' answers in quotation marks.=20 His position is an innovation compared with earlier speculations:=20 deceased spirits can never regress-, at worst, their progress towards=20 God is merely halted temporarily. In short, Kardec lets the spirits elevate= =3D=0D =20 a morally justified hope to the status of revealed truth.=20 To strengthen his case, Kardec resorts to a second strategy, scientism.=20 Already, the first mesmerist or somnambulist sessions were conceived=20 of as methods of empirically exploring invisible dimensions of the=20 cosmos. Spiritism uses the same rhetorical move to gain legitimacy.=20 Thus, Kardec repeatedly and explicitly refers to his method as a new=20 science.=20 Several elements of what would become theosophical reincarnation=20 doctrine were already in place. The human soul reincarnates in order to=20 progress spiritually. Incarnations take place not only on earth, but also=20 on other planets. However the English channel was a formidable barrier=20 to the spread of Kardecist theories of reincarnation, which did not gain=20 much influence in the Anglo-American world until around 1880.=20 (Godwin "Theosophical Enlightenment")=20 The first link to Theosophy was lady Caithness, she became the=20 recipient of a series of mediumistic revelations from sources as diverse=20 as Mary Stuart and the archangel Gabriel. These messages were set=20 down in writing and, over a period of twenty years, grew into a series of=20 books. The second link, Anna Kingsford, made the acquaintance of lady=20 Caithness while studying medicine in Paris.=20 Kingsford, which in other English, was the creator of a religious=20 worldview clearly based on Kardec's and the other French spiritists'=20 melioristic beliefs. In her main work, The Perfect Way or the Finding of=20 Christ, published in 1882, she explains in typically evolutionist language = =3D=0D how the soul aspires to progress from plant to animal to human, and=20 finally to leave the physical body behind. Anna Kingsford herself claimed=20 to have once lived as Mary Magdalene. In Kingsford's view, physical=20 existence is an evil to be overcome.=20 Upon her return to London, Kingsford joined the British section of the=20 Theosophical Society. A few British spiritualists had already adopted the = =3D=0D doctrine of reincarnation. However, it appears that the publication of=20 The Perfect Way, which attracted a great deal of attention, was crucial=20 in achieving a critical mass for the controversial doctrine. Coincidentally= =3D=0D =20 or not, theosophical writings began to mention reincarnation as a=20 spiritual truth for the first time around this same year 1882.=20 Blavatsky had claimed that the transmigration of souls was "an=20 exception, a phenomenon as abnormal as a fetus with two heads." As=20 noted above, around 1882, Blavatsky had changed her mind. Since both=20 the earlier and the later teachings were allegedly received from the=20 same group of ascended Masters, the discrepancy became quite=20 embarrassing. As recent as late 1876 Blavatsky had written in her=20 scrapbook: "Mind is the quintessence of the Soul-and having joined its=20 divine Spirit Nous-can return no more to earth. IMPOSSIBLE."=20 Also Olcott's letter of May 20, 1876, to M.A. Oxon gave testimony of this. = =3D=0D On the Barones von Vay's wanting to join the Theosophical Society: "If=20 she wants to come in with us she can-but she must scrape off her=20 Reincarnation shoes at the door; there's no room for that in our=20 Philosophy."=20 Exegetical treatises followed Blavatsky's lead in adopting reincarnation.=20 In chapter 5 of Sinnett's Esoteric Buddhism, the author explains the=20 destiny of man after death. Of the seven components that make up our=20 persons, the three lower pass away at the moment of physical death.=20 If earlier theories on life after death were largely based on privileged=20 knowledge, in the Mahatma Letters, and even more in Sinnett's book,=20 the discursive strategies of science and tradition were mobilized. The=20 description of life after death increasingly rested on a number of=20 Sanskrit terms, which, just like the title of his book, define the positive= =3D=0D =20 Others. In a style that will later be typical of other major theosophical=20 movement texts, these Orientalist references are interspersed with=20 appeals to contemporary science, including nineteenth century pseudo- sciences such as mesmerism. Thus, from their existence in Devachan,=20 souls can appear to spiritualist mediums and magnetic somnambules=20 because the spirit of the sensitive getting odylized, so to say, by the aur= =3D=0D a=20 of the spirit in the Devachan, becomes for a few minutes that departed=20 personality, and writes in the handwriting of the latter, in his language=20 and in his thoughts as they were during his lifetime. Thus what is called = =3D=0D rapport, is, in plain fact, an identity of molecular vibration between the = =3D=0D astral part of the incarnate medium and the astral part of the discarnate=20 personality. (Sinnett "Esoteric Buddhism", pp. 146 f.)=20 The belief in reincarnation advanced from being a minority view to=20 becoming one of the core elements of the arguably most influential=20 esoteric movement of the late nineteenth century.=20 A fundamental discursive strategy, legitimizing not only the belief in=20 reincarnation but also the theosophical myth as a whole, is the=20 construction of tradition. The Secret Doctrine is allegedly based on an=20 ancient manuscript, the Book of Dzyan.=20 Blavatsky claimed that this palm leaf manuscript from Atlantis contained=20 the true core of all the great religions. Implicitly, reincarnation had=20 passed in six years from being a controversial innovation to becoming a=20 central tenet of all the religious traditions of the world-or at least of t= =3D=0D he=20 esoteric aspect of each of these traditions=85.=20 Blavatsky's reincarnation doctrine builds on elements deriving from=20 several different sources. Due to the inherent difficulties in harmonizing = =3D=0D historically distinct traditions, her reincarnation doctrine is not free fr= =3D=0D om=20 contradictions. At times, she seems to draw on the purported roots of=20 the "ancient wisdom religion" in a generalized Buddhism. Thus,=20 Blavatsky can refer to "the great truth that reincarnation is to be=20 dreaded, as existence in this world only entails upon man suffering,=20 misery and pain." (SD I:39)=20 Nevertheless, following a view that could be either Hindu or Platonic, but = =3D=0D certainly not Buddhist in any orthodox sense, she claims that there is a=20 unique individuality that incarnates again and again. In a reminiscence of = =3D=0D an earlier Western esoteric tradition, the individual is said to reincarnat= =3D=0D e=20 after a stay in the astral plane." Another echo of the frequent esoteric=20 preoccupation with the number seven, the individual is said to be=20 composed of an aggregate of seven entities that part ways at physical=20 death. A quote such as the following is closer to a Lurianic kabbalistic=20 view than to the "Esoteric Buddhism" that Sinnett wrote of:=20 The Monad emerges from its state of spiritual and intellectual=20 unconsciousness; and gets directly into the plane of Mentality. But there = =3D=0D is no place in the whole universe with a wider margin, or a wider field of = =3D=0D action in its almost endless gradations of perceptive and apperceptive=20 qualities, than this plane, which has in its turn an appropriate smaller=20 plane for every "form", from the "mineral" monad up to the time when=20 that monad blossoms forth by evolution into the DIVINE MONAD. But all=20 the time it is still one and the same Monad, differing only in its=20 incarnations, throughout its ever succeeding cycles of partial or total=20 obscuration of spirit, or the partial or total obscuration of matter-two=20 polar antitheses-as it ascends into the realms of mental spirituality, or=20 descends into the depths of materiality." (Secret Doctrine I:175)=20 The construction of tradition, the bricolage from bits and pieces of such=20 originally distinct historical sources, masks the novelty of Blavatsky's=20 overall conception. Essentially, the theosophical view of the=20 transmigration of souls is not so much Oriental or Platonic, as a typically= =3D=0D =20 nineteenth century construction.=20 Three key ideas run through Blavatsky's description of the chain of=20 rebirth. The first is the fact of Orientalism itself. The frequent referenc= =3D=0D es=20 to India and the East rather than to e.g. Plotinus or Paracelsus are in=20 themselves a phenomenon of the post-Enlightenment era.=20 The second is the placement of reincarnation within the arguably most=20 overarching meta-narrative of the nineteenth century: evolutionism.=20 The third element is the synthesis of these ideas with another meta- narrative of the nineteenth century: the view that humanity is divided=20 into races and peoples with clearly definable properties. A closer look at = =3D=0D the purported ancient wisdom religion shows it to be a mythologization=20 of ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe.=20 Nineteenth century belief in reincarnation generally rested on classical=20 religious motifs: the belief in messages revealed from suprahuman=20 sources. Knowledge of the afterlife state was imparted to prophetic=20 figures, to mesmerist and spiritist mediums, or to religious virtuosi such = =3D=0D as H.P. Blavatsky. The details of reincarnation were presented in=20 abstract myths or through the imaginary lives of significant individuals.=20 With time, both the doctrines and their legitimizing strategies have=20 changed. Tradition has gained considerable weight in texts that discuss=20 reincarnation. The theosophical legend that the earliest Christian=20 communities believed in the transmigration of souls would hardly have=20 been so resilient in the face of contrary evidence if it did not serve an=20 important purpose. Part of the process of secularization consists in the=20 realization that there are many religious faiths. As long as one is only=20 aware of a single tradition, its doctrines and rituals may seem self- evident.=20 Once one gets to know several conflicting stories, one's own set of=20 beliefs risks being demoted to the status of one option among many. If=20 one becomes aware of the fact that modern reincarnation belief is=20 largely the product of a nineteenth century French author of=20 schoolbooks, this knowledge might contribute to fostering a hermeneutic=20 of suspicion.=20 Universalism becomes an effective remedy against doubt. If in the=20 ultimate analysis, all religious are merely variations of a=20 philosophiaperemis, the differences between Hindu, Christian or Spiritist=20 beliefs are simply details. The question whether present-day=20 reincarnation beliefs, as set out in the latest texts, were actually create= =3D=0D d=20 or discovered) by Allan Kardec, Helena Blavatsky or some nameless=20 Oriental sage becomes a matter of no great concern.=20 Today the believer does not need to rely on blind faith alone. There are=20 supposedly rational reasons for accepting reincarnation. For those who=20 wish to take the next step in their interest in the afterlife, past life=20 experiences are a "proof" freely available to anybody. The therapeutic=20 practices that have sprung from past life beliefs are widespread today;=20 those interested in investigating purported past life memories can do so=20 with little practical difficulty. Rationalists may find it obvious that=20 experiences are ambiguous and can sometimes even be directly=20 misleading.=20 For large segments of the pseudo-scientific cultic milieu today it seems=20 equally obvious that personal experiences are faithful maps of=20 underlying reality. Herein lies a deep contradiction within post-New Age=20 religiosity. Overtly, its texts commonly invoke a democratic ideal,=20 according to which nothing needs to be taken on faith (see Bart L's=20=20 apologetic claims), and which insists that the readers' spiritual=20 experiences are by far more important than any opinions that the author=20 might entertain.=20 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: The Secret Doctrine and Complementarity... From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 01:06:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 09:06:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 28263 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 09:06:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 09:06:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 09:06:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 09:06:34 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:06:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART III Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 13864 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Received a short note from B.A.-G. that tonight when he returns from his meetings, and he can still sit up right, he might type a part iv to his responses on theos-talk. I look forward to that. For the rest I seem to be getting more interresting replies "off " theos-talk then on it. This came in (and if I have time later today I might place it on the internet) following is in response to the article I placed some hours back (*): Don Lopez admitted to me that were it not for theosophy he would not have embarked upon the inquiry into Buddhism that has brought him to where he is now. Nonetheless, he is a leading proponent of the 'geneaological' deconstruction of theosophy. Even more tellingly, Sharf, when 'pressed' by a quizzical expression upon my face as to what motivated his schtick, once said to me: "we've been duped." That said it all to me. Where it leaves us is another thing. For some it constitutes a wholesale rejection of what preceded them. For others, it means an attempt to 'save the baby from the bathwater'. For others yet again it may mean an abandoning of certain commitments to metaphysical questioning. And so on. It was easy back at the turn of the century for Blavatsky to say that she was in telepathetic contact with someone who's existence couldn't be verified. But now, even Shigatze has telephones, TV and Chinese police. Nobody can escape detection these days. Discorporate Smart People, or those who have allegedly taken a form through mayavirupa MUST be dismissed as figments. Following Blavatsky came our Alice Bailey, Bailey, however, later fell into the abyss of Christian Conditioning and after WWII insisted that the reappearance of Christ was imminent. Those thus hooked still wait for the Nice Man from Heaven under the mind-cuffs generated by Benjamin Creme (and his Invisible Friends he calls masters). Looking a little more generally and this process of the relationship with Our Personal Invisible Friend, we can see that it is the foundation of many of our spiritual practices. Even those poor souls who have been suckered into the Adi Da prison never (or very rarely) actually meet the Burrito Supreme (as I sometimes call him). Xtians have their Jesus, Muzzies have Allah, Buddhists (don't kid yourselves) get Miss Atma. There's always some answer for that relationship we have with this internal bright spot of unity. I suggest a loving expression toward a self- concocted pantheistic end-all be-all which encompases all maya and the All (not described as maya) that is Not Even Nothing. In other words, use your heart for this and don't try to explain it away with your mind. If you can find a copy of Modern Religious Movements in India by J. N. Farquhar (first published in 1914) there's a great chapter on Theosophy & Blavatsky el al. It gives the facts surrounding Blavatsky's hoaxes that resulted in her being chased out of India. (*): http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 > WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? PART III > > by H H Tridandi Sannyasi Bhakti Ananda Goswami Maharaja > Shiksha (instructing) Master, Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya lineage of > Vaishnavism > > TAKING A REAL-WORLD HISTORICAL APPROACH TO THE CONTENT OF THE MAHATMA > LETTERS > > AN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE AND SUGGESTIONS FOR AN INITIAL VAISHNAVA, > PURE LAND BUDDHIST, AND SHIVA-SHAKTI AGAMIC AND TANTRIC REVIEW OF THE > LITERATURE, THE "MAHATMA LETTERS", AS COMPILED BY BARKER, AND > AVAILABLE TO SEARCH ONLINE FROM THE THEOSOPHICAL UNIVERSITY PRESS > > > An Historical Approach > > Whether or not God or gods exist, their worship certainly does, and > such worship can be studied rigorously in an interdisciplinary way in > history, the same as any other real-world phenomenon. In the same > way, the innovation and diffusion of Theosophy can be studied. > Thoughts, theistic, atheistic and agnostic etc., and the symbols, > words and actions which express them have history. While people of > equal intelligence and integrity may dispute the existance of God, > gods, or the Theosophical Masters, the existence of religion and > theosophy is not debated. It is easier to trace the course through > time and territory of the popular exoteric 'Great Religions' than it > is to trace the innovations and diffusions of the elitist esoteric > traditions. Never the less, the esoteric traditions have real-world > history too, and with some additional effort, much can be learned > about these as well. Paul Johnson has noted the sui generis problem > (see below). The historical approach to the study of a religion > (or 'spirituality', I might add), is often experienced as threatening > by faithful. > > From: "kpauljohnson" > Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:33 am > Subject: Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation > occurs > > > > ..."Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment > of > the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the > Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who > insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God; > Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose > words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist > that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which > everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane > calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always > complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui > generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think > Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although > they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas." > > BA G : In fact, that "...self-honesty about the history of > ideas.",is exactly what the system of sampradaya or parampara and > GURU,SHASTRA and SADHU (GSS)is all about in the authentic teaching > lineages of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shakti-ism, Buddhism and > Catholicism etc. These exoteric traditions all attempt to preserve > their sacred heritage, by systems of initiation and apostolic > succession. For example, one cannot just claim to be a Madhvite or > Ramanujite Vaishnava master, any more than one could claim to be a > Coptic Catholic bishop without the authority of the Coptic rite > Patriarch. No one can serve as a bishop in the Roman Rite Catholic > Church, without the proper elevation of the Pope. No one can just > claim to be the next Dalai Lama or Patriarch of any of the Vaishnava, > Shaivite, Shankarite Advaitan, Hasidic Jewish, traditional Sufi or > Catholic Rite lineages. All of these 'apostolic' traditions > zealously guard their teaching authority, which preserves the guru, > shastra and sadhu history of their ideas and practices. The real- > world checks and balances system of guru (living teacher in union > with the magisterium), shastra (scripture, canonical body of > writings) and sadhu (the tradition of the saints, mystics, > theologians and commentators), provides exoteric religions with a way > to try to safe-guard the historical integrity and continuity of their > traditions. Thus the legitimate lineages of Vaishnavsim, Shaivism and > Buddhism etc. are extremely strict about properly identifying their > history of ideas and practices. No one can speak from the > Vyasasana 'ex cathedra' without proper lineage credentials. > > In practice, this means that I can trace certain ideas in my specific > lineage back thousands of years, because each generation has > identified its accepted sources, heroes and associations with those > of previous generations. I can also trace some of the major and > minor branching-out of ideas and practices from the main 'trunk' of > my lineage, and identify some groups that are proximately or remotely > related to my own today. Because there is such a high value placed on > such parampara or sampradaya lineage affiliations in the main Indic > traditions, studying these has enormous value for an historian of > religion. It is because of this "...self honesty of the history..." > of their ideas, that India and Tibet etc, have any recorded history > to be studied at all. It has been said that Indians wrote no history > of India. However, this cannot be said if one is considering the > histories of the great religious traditions of India, whose vast > libraries were full of detailed accounts of the lives and thought of > the generations transmitting their sacred traditions. One of the > great tragedies of the Muslim invasion of India, was the vast > destruction of Indian religious center monastery-university cities > and all their libraries. > > Unfortunately in our time such destruction of temples and libraries > is still going on, but this time it is not just fanatical Muslims > doing it. The Sinhalese Buddhist 'Aryans' have recently occupied > hundreds of Tamil (principally Shaivite and Devi)temples, and have > destroyed about a hundred thousand volumes of priceless Tamil > literatures in the last ten years. This campaign for the cultural > annihilation of the Dravidian Tamils by the so-called 'Aryan' > Sinhalese, is one reason that scholars of religion, such as myself, > are concerned about the perpetuation of the 'Aryan' race-myth. > > Despite such barbarism, and in consideration of the amazing amount of > information still available from ancient texts, archeology and the > intact living GSS traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism, there is ample > evidence available for the study of the "Mahatma Letters" in the > historical context of their "...complex genealogy..." > > Suggestions For an Initial Survey of the Literature > > Because we have the Theosophical University Library Edition of > the "Mahatma Letters" in a searchable format online, one way to > approach an understanding of the Mahatmas' mastery from the > perspective of the Tibetan Buddhist-related Hindu and Buddhist GSS > traditions, is to search the Letters for key terms associated with > those GSS traditions. Completing such a search can establish the > initial evidentiary parameters of our textual investigation. In > assessing what the Mahatmas were the masters of, we can learn much > from what is NOT INCLUDED IN THE LETTERS. > > So let us begin with some of these key terms. The Mahatmas claimed > an identity-with and love for India, which they significantly DID NOT > CALL BHARATA. The use of European terms, instead of the ones > like 'Bha_rata", which real ancient Indian Mahatmas would be expected > to use, is one of the most striking things to a real master and lover > of that ancient land and culture. > > Here are some of the Sanskrit terms I have already searched in the > over 100 "Mahatma Letters", and the results, which are quite > revealing. In my search, I used several variant spellings, and the > singular and plural forms of the word. However for brevity, only the > main search term or name is given with the totals below. Next to the > word is the total number of references in the Mahatma Letters, pulled- > up by the Theosophical University search program. There seems to be > no reflection of Agamic or Dravidian Vedic spirituality in > the "Mahatma Letters". > > Places / States > > goloka 0 > bhuloka 0 > bhumi 0 > vrindavan 0 > bharata 0 > kailasa 1 > vaikuntha 0 > sukhavati 1 > loka 8 > swarga 0 > vyuha 0 > > Giver (masculine) Deity Names > > Vaishnava > > chrishna 2 > vishnu 4 > hari 0 > purusha 4 > narayana 0 > avatar 3 > devadeva 0 > surya 2 > indra 0 > chandra 1 > kama 12 > vishvakarman 0 > brahma 6 > deva(s) 21 > > Shaivite > > shiva 2 > kala 0 > hara 0 > maruga(n) 0 > kartikeya 0 > skanda 0 > ganesha 0 > ganapati 0 > > > > Related Receiver (Feminine) Divine Names > > Vaishnava > > radha 0 > sakti 2 > prakriti 3 > ganga 0 > ma 2 > sarasvati 0 > lakshmi 0 > sri 1 > padma 1 > narayani 0 > tara 0 > gayatri 0 > tulasi 0 > > > Shaivite > > kali 1 > uma 0 > parvati 0 > durga 0 > maya 16 > devi 0 > yogamaya 0 > > > The Tradition of Sita-Rama > > ramayana 0 > valmiki 0 > tulsidas 0 > rama 1 > ramachandra 0 > sita 0 > janaki 0 > hanuman 0 > ravana 0 > > Some Shastra Titles, Important Names and Terms > > vyasa 1 > vyasadeva 0 > mahabharata 0 > veda 1 > upanishads 0 > agama 0 > tantra 0 > shastra 1 > samhita 0 > sutra (s) 3 > sama 0 > rig 0 > yajur 0 > ayurveda 0 > saddharma pundarika 0 > bhagavadgita 0 > bhagavat 1 > bhagavatam 0 > gita 1 > jataka 0 > hitopedesha 0 > pancatantra 0 > > Mahatmas Identified themselves as Buddhists > > buddha 18 > buddhism 24 > buddhist 13 > bodhisattva 0 > > Aryan and Race Term Search > > arya 1 > aryan 9 > aryans 4 > > race 31 > races 16 > varna 0 > dravidian 0 > > > Material Modes of Nature > > sattva 0 > raja 3 > tama 0 > guna 0 > > Some Additional Important Terms > > bhakti 0 > kama 12 > jnana 0 > vidya 4 > dharma 0 > karma 38 > vishva karman 0 > > Ages and Cycles > > kalpa 1 > yuga (s)1 > sattya > treta 0 > dvarpara 0 > kaliyuga 0 > > Worship and Sacrifice Related terms > > mantra 0 > japa 0 > puja 3 > pujari 0 > purohita 0 > murti 0 > soma 0 > agni 0 > yupa 0 > nama 0 > rupa 9 > yoga 4 > > Some Great Masters Accepted by the Vaishnavas > > caraka 0 > madhva 0 > jayatirtha 0 > vyasatirtha 0 > ramanuja 0 > vallabha 0 > vishnuswami 0 > nimbarka 0 > jayadevagoswami 0 > caitanya 0 > shankara 0 > > Some Master Titles and Lineage Words > > acharya 0 > goswami 0 > alvars 0 > sadhu 0 > saddhus 1 > sampradaya 0 > parampara 0 > diksha 0 > siksha 0 > sannyasi 0 > > Finite and Supreme Spirit Words > atma 5 > atman 2 > jiva 2 > jivatma 4 > paramatma 0 > parabrahmn 6 > brahman 1 > brahma 6 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 23 01:31:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 09:31:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 52456 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 09:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 09:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 09:31:57 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.c6.156c43de (3972) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:31:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:31:55 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi M. I don't think I mentioned anything about "racism." I was talking about freedom. In New York, which is a melting pot for every, ethnic, religious, cultural, racial, age, financial, occupational, sexual, etc., group imaginable, there is (like everyplace else where such disparate groups come into close contact) some degree of disagreement, hatred, fear, intolerance, jealousy, anger, etc., that is bound to exist between them. However, that sort of thing cuts both ways. And, no more blame can be placed on one side than the other. But, such overt discriminations are not very evident in such a big city as NY, since only a few people out of each group engage in such negative emotions or actions. Also, I doubt, if you can limit such discriminations solely to the US -- since not all humans everywhere are Theosophists -- or Sufis. As for the differences between being WHITE or BLACK in the US -- while it still exists to a certain degree, it is very much less than before MLK Jr. martyred himself in the cause of "human equality"... Not "peace," by the way -- although, like Ghandi, he advocated and used peaceful resistance and protest to attain freedom from oppression and suppression for black Americans. Peace, in the other hand, is something that can only come about when all people recognize their fundamental equality, and are capable of working together to choose leaders who are capable of solving their inter-group, interracial, or international differences by peaceful negotiation or other means -- short of war. The differences you speak of and relate to peace, are not between "Black and White," but between former slave and freeborn, former farmer and city dweller, uneducated and educated, pauper and wealthy, ruled and rulers, male and female, hetero and homosexual, and hundreds of other major and minor separations and resultant discriminations that people become conditioned to by their parents, schooling, peers, etc. -- while not learning how to think for themselves. This separative tendency is a fundamental problem of human nature based on "ignorance" -- which cannot be changed by proselytizing, preaching, edict, or government laws, rules and regulations -- but only by "self realization" gained by "self determined and self devised study and effort." Is that why theosophist's know the futility of engaging in politics? And why they also know that the only way for humanity to achieve real equality and real peace is to simply practice it themselves -- while minding their own business and not pointing fingers at others? As for "leg pulling" I'm glad you recognize (and enjoy) a good joke (on you ;-) when you hear it. LHM (picture of a smiling bearded man wearing a French beret) "Keep on Smiling" (as sung by Louis Armstrong -- is my theme song) --------------------------- In a message dated 11/18/02 11:23:13 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi all of you, > >I laugh. >And Yes Leon - I still have my legs, they are not gone, not yet that is! > >So no racism in USA ? >No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when Martin Luther >King Jr. did >his best to make peace on this Planet ? > >Really....? > >from >M. Sufilight with no smiles...but a happy face... > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:11 PM >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > >> Hi M. >> >> I hope you know when your leg is being pulled. :-) >> >> If you did, you wouldn't have a happy smile... You'd be laughing out loud. >> >> In any event, I agree with Steve -- at least about the things he said >> about freedom and Dopey Dubya. >> >> But, seriously, the one thing you should know is; The American people (who >> don't own the global businesses) and the people who run this country and >> make all the foreign affairs decisions, are birds of a different color. >> >> So, when you condemn the "US" imperialism, don't blame all us "Americans" >> (although some of us may have voted, for one reason or another, for the >> assholes at the top who push the buttons. ;-) The rest of us are either >> "indigenous Americans," or a mixed bag of immigrants and their descendants, >> who are about as free as they want to be in their local State and City >> communities (each, with their own separate local laws, rules and regulations) >> -- some of which have probably as many (or less), as ethnically pure (or >> diverse), as prejudiced (or unprejudiced), as free (or unfree) people >> as in your own country... (And, everything in-between.) >> >> LHM >> >> >> In a message dated 11/15/02 11:44:07 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk >writes: >> >> >HI Steve and all of you, >> > >> >Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! >> >Maybe more than you would know. >> > >> >from >> >M. Sufilight with a happy smile... >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Steve Stubbs" >> >To: >> >Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM >> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians >> > >> > >> >> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No Bart. >> >> > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one single >- >> >> extremly >> >> > nationalistic - country which >> >> > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - while they >> >> do the >> >> > opposite ! >> >> >> >> Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's >> >> mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or Iraq >> >> correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush says >he >> >> wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying >he >> >> wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just >> >> inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking course. >> >> Or just resign and go away, one of the two. >> >> >> >> > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of the >> >> > EU-countries - looking at percentages. >> >> >> >> Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on >> >> drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes sense >on >> >> the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of >> >> work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws were >> >> reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment line. > It >> >> is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a vested >> >> interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. >> >> >> >> Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the political >> >> spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the left. >> >> >> >> > And what about the arab countries or India ? >> >> >> >> They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt about >> >> it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss that. >> >> Some of us hope we can catch up someday. >> >> >> >> > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails >of >> >> USA are >> >> > allowed "FREE MIXING". >> >> >> >> Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends >> >> Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of Palestinians. >> >> >> >> > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular country >? >> >> >> >> I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past one. >> >> >> >> > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace is >> >> important. >> >> > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? >> >> >> >> Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need help going >> >> to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he has a >> >> rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. >> >> The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does not >get >> >> beaten too badly. >> >> >> >> You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an >> >> accurate view of the situation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 02:11:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 10:11:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 35800 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 10:11:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 10:11:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 10:11:35 -0000 Received: from pool0202.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.202] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FXG9-00079c-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:11:33 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed -- SEEING GOD Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:38 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 November 23, 2002 Re: UNIVERSAL EXPERIENCE by an individual. SEEING GOD Dear Robert: I am not seeking to employ any one method or phraseology. And in the process of writing I employ those analogies (or phrases) that best express the meaning I seek to convey. I also try to take readers into account, and may on occasion offer Theosophical doctrines and reasoning. Therefore unless we agree that we are studying together and seeking to discover things together the conversation has not much future. It is clear that I may have misunderstood your focus. In which case please readjust it. In the metaphysical terms I have learned from Theosophy, I have employed those that best seem to express the undefinable. I do not know what you mean by "transcendental." I hold that there are no matters of any level or limit which the free-mind cannot grasp. Owing to its indissoluble link with the MONAD it finds only the ABSOLUTE impossible to define. To it, therefore the ABSOLUTE is a "logical necessity." There cannot be a "personal god." But then, I also have to include the concept that my mind is directed by me, as I would a tool, and I am NOT solely the embodied and temporary mind, that uses the name "Dallas" in this incarnation. The "real" ME transcends the embodied, lower-mind. Everyone has the same advantages and parameters of their own making, and it is possible to determine to change them. If there is to be any "vision of god" as one might describe it, then it is the "real ME" that impresses the embodied mind I use in this personality with the event. I sense that I am now faced with a choice: Shall I make of this a vision one that I will carry each moment henceforth into my living? It is clear to me, that my lower-mind has been strongly impressed by this event: "You and the ALL, are ONE." The term "god" has many meanings, none of which are of any fixed standard. I would agree that no limits of "form, size, area, substance, or time" can be made to apply. And if used, they only tend to show what "god' is not. Can we define: perfection, truth, law ? Can any image of any kind personate these? I do hold it to be reasonable that there must be some indescribable "background" that is totally apart from and unaffected by limitations of any kind. In Theosophy the word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS is employed. The Hindus used the word PARABRAHM or that which is "beyond" Brahma the manifested. I do agree that the "manifested" is by that fact "limited." But still it seems to retain the potential and capacity of visualizing or apprehending that which is unlimited. "Impossible" would then be nonsensical. If asked how this is possible I would say that the "Higher mind" (Buddhi-Manas) is always linked in incarnation with the "Lower mind" (Kama-Manas). This is how I find it expressed in Theosophy. The potential "god" is forever locked within the confines of a form of some kind. [ see KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) 178-184.] As to direct experience of "god." I would tend to say we do it all the time, but are not aware of it. In every human (as also in every manifested 'being,' there is the HIGHER SELF, ATMA) and this is said to be one with the ABSOLUTE. But, we might pause here, and ask: "Why are we not aware of it ? In saying that I think if the ABSOLUTE is unchangeable and truly universal, then we can no more "escape" its "presence" than we can escape SPACE. I would not presume to deny to any one the witnessing of what they might call "god." But I would also say that such an event, merely proves the thesis that the "embodied mind" (with all its limitations) is a "ray" from, and, in essence is "one with" that universal ABSOLUTENESS. I would also add that the way in which any individual "sees" such a personal (yet startling) event, is modified by their situation and experience. Also, when such events occur, they are reviewed. They are for our minds (in the here and now), memory. If anything, one could say that the experiencer is momentarily ONE WITH, and yet, clearly, it does not lose its unique IDENTITY. One may attempt to make a record of such events, but proof lies only in the actual witnessed event and it is "one on ONE." One could express it this way: The purpose of the UNIVERSE in manifestation is for the innumerable "rays" (Monads) of the ONE SPIRIT to undergo, individually and personally, the cooperative and compassionate experience of coexistence in very department of life. The process of reincarnation is then a requirement, so that they may develop in themselves an awareness of their own immortality, and simultaneously, an awareness of the immortality of all the rest. Any sense of uniqueness has to be abandoned here. All Monads have identical potentials and capacities, but they manifest them individually according to their free choices. This personal endowment is what we might call character, capacity and genius. It is unique to each of us and is one of the proofs of reincarnation and the immortality of the superior SELF. This being achieved, the question of continued cooperation arises. Shall they who have such an experience, continue to work in and with Nature (the Universe) as do the Great Men who may have inspired us, and whom we might call prophets, Teachers, Builders, Rishis, Mahatmas, Adepts, Dhyanis, Buddhas, Christs, etc... [ see VOICE OF THE SILENCE (end), pp. 78-9 ] Best wishes, Dallas ================================ -----Original Message----- From: r Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:15 PM To: Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Dear Dallas, The first part of your posting (before "As to God") is peripheral (at best) to the point I'm trying to make. But I'd like to reply to certain statements in the second part. >>> If we personalize this concept we dwarf it. On the contrary, if we depersonalize it we sterilize it. "Dwarf" has a material connotation that's inappropriate when discussing transcendental matters (i.e., transcending our notions of physical space). >>> In reality it has no "Form." If we give one mentally to IT, we make it in our mind smaller than the Universe or illimitable SPACE. Again the terminology connoting material size is inappropriate. But a more important objection here is that there is a distinction between an object and our mental image of it. Whatever mental image of God we have, God is not that, and so God cannot be limited by our mental constructs. >>> If we perceive that the DIVINE PRINCIPLE is universal, we admit that it is everything and cannot be separate from or different from anything in Nature (the Universe.) This is an expression of the immanent/transcendent dichotomy, over which many philosophical battles have been fought. Those who have seen directly have described God's situation as BOTH immanent and transcendent simultaneously, in a manner that's probably inconceivable (at least, I've never been able to conceive of it satisfactorily). But "inconceivable" is not at all the same as "impossible." >>> It is quite fruitless to discuss individual views about "God." They are the result of self-limited ideas and premises. Yes, if they're based on speculation. But I'm speaking of direct experience of God. You may accept or not accept the testimony of witnesses, but such testimony is categorically different from speculation. Robert From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 02:11:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 10:11:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 14525 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 10:11:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 10:11:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 10:11:43 -0000 Received: from pool0202.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.202] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FXGI-00079c-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:11:42 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [Blavatsky_Study] RE: The THINKER -- REALITY and MAYA-ILLUSION Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov. 23 2002 Re: illusion, delusion, confusion Dear M and friends: Delusion, illusion, confusion are mental attitudes and "afflictions." If we desire to reduce them to some degree of order we have to transcend them. The "desire nature" has a grip on our lower mind and together they create the delusion of isolation and selfishness. We lose sight of the immortality of all beings and the fact that we live in a universe devoted to cooperation. Interiorly, we ALWAYS KNOW what is true. We have to learn to trust that. It is INTUITION and it is also the VOICE OF CONSCIENCE. They are always influenced by desire, selfishness, anxiety -- all pertain to Kama-desire principle. To overcome one has to secure the help and wisdom of BUDDHI-MANAS. Only a good knowledge of THEOSOPHICAL doctrines can help. Try studying the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) particularly from pp 176 - 184. But that will not help much unless the whole substratum of the theosophical philosophy is not well grasped. We must realise we fabricate our own personalities all the time. If we can take a firm hands in this reform we will be able to transcend all illusions. Affirm to yourself I AM THE SUPREME SELF. I can know any and all truths. In my choices I shall always be unselfish and practice all the virtues. I will act for and as the SELF OF ALL CREATURES. I will harm no one or anything in the world. Get a copy of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) and study it carefully.-- or download from the "on line" version at http://www.blavatsky.net See if that helps Best wishes, Dallas ==================== -----Original Message----- From: M Y Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 4:22 AM To: Subject: Re: The THINKER -- REALITY and MAYA-ILLUSION Dear Dallas, In SD there is "illusion of ignorance" refered as Maya. Personality and time is referred as illusion. Which can be true/false? - There are different kinds of illusions - Ignorance cause illusions - Illusions cause ignorance - Ignorance and illusions occur together naturally - So we are in illusion of ignorance as in the case of personality and time naturally within the limits of mind as sum of the states of Consciousness. Could you please help? Sincerely M Y CUT From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 23 02:30:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 10:30:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 13120 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 10:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 10:30:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 10:30:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.188.11643e38 (3964) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:30:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <188.11643e38.2b10b2c0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:30:24 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi Bart, Appreciate your quoting such documentation, or giving me some references -- (preferably on the web, if possible). My father, a master chemist, occultist, stage magician, show producer, and good friend of Houdini, demonstrated how Moses pulled off his trick of turning his real staff to a snake and back to a staff -- to defeat the snake trick of the Egyptian Priests (which my dad told me were simple tricks of alchemy). However, since I suspect that there isn't any real evidence that Moses' trick had anything to do with paralyzing a real snake, as claimed by Brian/Bridgitte, I'd like to confirm this. Moses trick was simply the use of skilled wood carving, plus "charm" or misdirection, along with which was described by HPB as the basis of all her "occult" magic. BTW, I have a sculpted wooden walking stick that I can turn into a snake, or a harp, at a moment's notice. Would have bowled over those ancient Egyptian priests. :-) Did you know that Moses played a harp, which was also his staff? LHM In a message dated 11/18/02 11:24:33 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > The Egyptian "staff to snake" effect is well-documented. There is, at >this point, no proof that ANYBODY can do the infamous "Indian Rope >Trick"; the latter is quite probably just a legend. > > Bart Lidofsky From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 02:41:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 10:41:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 68094 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 10:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 10:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 10:41:05 -0000 Received: from pool0131.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.131] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FXie-0004ji-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:41:01 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: God, Law, Karma Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:37:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nov 23 2002 Re GOD LAW KARMA --- Whose on first ? Dear Friends, and Tim: Our Universe our world, and ourselves are all as forms and incarnations the products of our choices (karma) made in a previous incarnation. Karma is the general rule and law that permeates the entire universe and hold it together and by that means draws all beings together where they naturally deserve to be. But that does not make KARMA a =93GOD.=94 If you desire to find a God then perhaps you are looking for a =93cause.=94 The search is endless, because the cause for our existence lies far back in the night of eternity. The CAUSELESS CAUSE is said to be the propulsive purpose for manifestation. You could call it KARMA in a transcendental mode -- a vast power to spiritualize all things. to make for wisdom and compassion and just action. What we need to do is to learn the basics of theosophical doctrines and then begin to make applications in our lives. Law demands impersonality and universality, and hence unselfishness, generosity and compassion -- these need to be grasped as philosophical necessities. Virtues ought to guide our every day choices and lives. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Tim L Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:29 PM To: Subject: God, Law, Karma How's this for an idea. The Jews say that there is no difference between God and the Law (the Torah). God is the Law and the Law is God. Now if Karma is the Law, then God is Karma. Therefore, it would be the same thing to say God created the world as Karma created the world. Did my syllogisms get screwed up? :lol: CUT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 02:41:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 10:41:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 56025 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 10:41:10 -0000 Received: from pool0131.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.131] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FXim-0004ji-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:41:09 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: re Dallas's . . . Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:37:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Mauri: Suppose I try to let Theosophy answer: Using the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) Would it not say : The WE is the spiritual INDIVIDUAL the eternal man -- ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS which incarnates into many bodies named personalities. Since the personalities (Lower mind or Kama-manas) are involved in the selfishness of many desires, our views tend to be clouded by those limitations. How do we eliminate those clouds? We need to seek behind those for the TRUE SELF so to say. What then are we? Who is the REAL MAN ? We can give it names, but then the attributes are the things that count. What would you say to defining those ? Dal ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Ma Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 6:12 PM To: Subject: re Dallas's . . . Dallas wrote: <> As I tend to see it, Dallas, your choice of words (re such as "we personalize," "we dwarf," "we give," "we perceive," etc) seems to place much questionable relevance on a "we" that's (as per Theosophy?) mayavic, dualistic, karmic, exoteric, etc . . . Anyway, on the subject of "God," I think I prefer wording that, for a start, might go something along the lines of: "God" seems to have been interpreted in so many different ways (obviously enough?) And there seem to be so many different interpretations for the "Monad" and "Higher Self" of Theosophy, too? And some of us may prefer to assign God, Monad, Higher Self into some kind of fundamentally different basic categories, say (all in dualistic terms, regardless, in some cases?), but I suspect that Mahayna Buddhists, by definition, distinguish between dualistic notions and non-dualistic ones, and esoteric and exoteric, (which kind of distinguishing---apparently?---seems to be somewhat easier said than done, in some cases . . .). If theists prefer to use the word "God" instead of, say, the "non-dual Monad" of Mahayna Buddhism, then those who prefer the latter might wonder (?) how such theists approach/interpret whatever they define as "God" (ie, whether their approaches, attitudes, interpretations seem to be in keeping with dualistic or non-dualistic b/Basics). While I tend to wonder about where you're coming from, Dallas, at the same time I tend to find myself agreeing, in a sense, with the kind of wording ("exoterics," as it were) that you offered us about "God." I suppose we all tend to lean toward whatever seems most meaningful to us. Speculatively, Mauri PS And because I have lately begun to see duality in a mayavic sense, I've been counciling myself to keep my distance as per "my speculative stance," not that I haven't failed in my "distance keeping" many times, but/"but" . . . From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Nov 23 03:11:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 11:11:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 58886 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 11:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:11:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question for Paul about Brigitte, BA G in print 1994 Orbis Books Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3867 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.72 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, FOR THOSE WHO HAVE STILL NOT READ THE POSTS REGARDING BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI'S IDENTITY AND CREDENTIALS. PLEASE SEE THE WORLD VAISHNAVA ASSOCIATION (WVA) HOME PAGE NAMING ME TO HEAD THEIR INTERFAITH COMMITTEE. PLEASE ALSO READ THE 1994 ORBIS BOOKS PUBLICATION "EMBRACING EARTH : CATHOLIC APPROACHES TO THEOLOGY" ISBN # 0-88344-966-8, EDITED BY PROF. JOHN E. CARROLL AND ALBERT J. LA CHANCE. ORBIS BOOKS IS THE PUBLISHING HOUSE OF MARYKNOLL, THE CATHOLIC FOREIGN MISSIONARY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. THEIR ADDRESS IS P O BOX 308, MARYKNOLL, NY, 10545-0308, USA. I, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AKA BROTHER DAVID SHERMAN, WAS INVITED BY THE EDITORS TO CONTRIBUTE A CHAPTER TO THIS BOOK ON THE ROLE OF ASCETICISM IN THE JUDEO-CATHOLIC TRADITION, AND THE RELEVANCE OF ABSTINENCE AND ASCETICISM AND OTHER TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC AND GANDHIAN VAISHNAVA PRACTICES TO ECOLOGY TODAY. THE BOOK IDENTIFIES ME AS A SANNYASI BY MY ORDAINED NAME BELOW, AND ALSO BY MY CHRISTIAN NAME. MY CHAPTER IS TITLED "CHOOSE LIFE". THE BOOK HAS RECEIVED PRAISE FROM CATHOLIC LEADERS AND HAS BEEN USED IN PARISH COURSES, AS WELL AS DISTRIBUTED BY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. PLEASE STOP INSULTING MYSELF, MY DAUGHTER AND OTHERS BY CLAIMING THAT WE ARE NOT REAL PERSONS, AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS INVENTED US. BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI D catt; --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED > CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can start by > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I am > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you > people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, > Wry > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > > August of this year. > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] > it > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > week > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 03:11:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 11:11:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 62785 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 11:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 11:11:39 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:11:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 32680 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Leon : differences between being WHITE or BLACK in the US -- while it=20=20 still exists to a certain degree, it is very much less than before. Brian: On the other hand "racism" in the US did increase in the wake of=20 (after) the Civil War.=20 And today's Christian Identity can be described as the recasting of the=20 older British- Israelite creed on white racial nationalist, anti Semitic,=20 and, largely, National Socialist grounds. British-Israelism took shape in=20 England at the latter part of the nineteenth century. Inspired in part by = =3D=0D seventeenth century Puritan teachings and the visions of British naval=20 officer Richard Brothers (1757-1854), who claimed to be a direct=20 descendant of King David, British-Israelism identifies the Northern=20 European, and by extension white American, nations with the lost tribes=20 of Israel. It differs from Puritan beliefs in claiming not only a spiritual= =3D=0D ,=20 but a genealogical identification with the Chosen People of God. This=20 makes Europeans the principal actors of the Bible and thus implies an=20 ambiguous relationship with the Jews, who would be either relatives or=20 masquerading impostors. British-Israelism proper generally resolved this=20 tension by identifying Jews with the House of Judah. This conclusion led=20 British- Israelites to enthusiastically support early Zionism as it would=20 mean a reunification of the two Kingdoms in the Holy Land, which was=20 then a British protectorate.=20 Alarmed by Zionist demands for an independent Jewish state which in=20 effect would ruin the British-Israelite project of world salvation, a laten= =3D=0D t=20 anti - Semitism transpired, voicing doubts as to the Jews' true identity.=20 This negative attitude would be greatly accentuated on American soil,=20 where British-Israelism metamorphosed into Christian Identity. Early=20 proponents of the new gospel in America were M. M. Eshelman,=20 minister in the Church of Brethren and author of The Two Sticks or the=20 Lost Tribes of Israel Discovered (1887), and J. H. Allen, whose Judah's=20 Scepter and Joseph's Birthright (1902) became a bestseller, spreading=20 British-Israelism in Adventist and Bible study groups, and it is still wide= =3D=0D ly=20 read in Identity circles.=20 Though separate congregations were established in the United States,=20 British-Israelism mainly gained ground as a theological tendency among=20 individual ministers and laymen of conventional denominations, who=20 were bound together in loose networks or associations. Its theology=20 was, of course, not all that new in a land incorporating an=20 (analogous) "New Jerusalem" identity as part of a national creed.=20 Mormonism had already taken this notion a step further, claiming a=20 genealogical connection between its adherents and biblical Israel.=20 Struggling with its relationship to the Jewish people, Mormonism, like=20 British-Israelism, in general adopted a philo-Semitic position, although=20 schismatic groups have developed a virulent anti-Semitism on par with=20 Christian Identity.=20 The formative period of Christian Identity could roughly be said to be the = =3D=0D three decades between 1940 and 1970. Through missionaries like=20 Wesley Swift, Bertrand Comparet and William Potter Gale, it took on a=20 white racialist, anti-Semitic, anti-Communist and a far-right conservative = =3D=0D political outlook. Combined with the teachings of early disciples Richard=20 G. Butler, Colonel Jack Mohr and James K. Warner, a distinct racist=20 theology was gradually formed. Whites were said to be the Adamic=20 people, created in His likeness. A notion of a pre-earthly existence is=20 found in an important substratum, teaching that whites either had a=20 spiritual or extraterrestrial pre-existence. Blacks were either preAdamic=20 soulless creatures or represented fallen, evil spirits, but they were not=20 the chief target of fear and hatred. This position was reserved for Jews. = =3D=0D The latent anti-Semitism found in British-Israelism rose to prominence.=20 Jews were, at best, reduced to mongrelized impostors, not infrequently=20 identified with Eurasian Khazars without any legitimate claim to a=20 closeness with God, and at worst denounced as the offspring of Satan.=20 While many Identity Christians interpret this relationship between Jews=20 and Satan as a spiritual bond, many Identity theologians advocate a=20 more literal blood-line linkage. Most renowned is the two-seed theory,=20 according to which Eve not only gave birth to Adam's son Abel, but also=20 to Satan's son, Cain, after having been seduced in a more down-to- earth manner. (2) The subsequent murder of Abel was thus not a=20 fratricide, but the first attempt to exterminate God's children. Whites and= =3D=0D =20 Jews are thus representations of the divine and the diabolical on earth,=20 locked in an eternal combat now approaching its predestined end. This=20 opposition could be accentuated into philosophical dualism, like in the=20 teachings of Robert Miles, who taught that God and Satan represented=20 two primal forces that used earth as a battleground to which they had=20 sent down armies of look-alike races, angelic soldiers of light versus=20 darkness, in their quest for cosmic dominion. An accentuated=20 apocalyptic consciousness pervaded Christian Identity, whose adherents=20 awaited a future more uncertain than most prophecy-believing=20 millenarian mainstream Christians.=20 In general, Christian Identity gave no room for the "rapture," the=20 miraculous physical escape from the impeding world destruction=20 common in fundamentalist Christianity. On the contrary, Identity=20 believers understood their task in terms of the Old Testament, in which=20 God used his people as combat soldiers. There was to be a global war,=20 and true believers had better to be prepared for the coming onslaught in=20 which evil would be exterminated by the army of God, led by "General=20 Jesus." (3) Thus, a militarized white racial religion took hold in the=20 United States.=20 Identifying the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Scandinavic peoples with=20 the lost tribes of Israel strengthened the sacred dimension of the=20 American project. This was the Holy Land, taken by "divine conquest,"=20 as God, as in the Old Testament, mandated His People to "go in and kill=20 every human being and possess the land. (4) White Americans were of=20 Marmaseh, prophesied to become a "great nation," (5) which in effect=20 made the American "nation" racially exclusive by divine command.=20=20 Identity logically held the Articles of Confederation and the original=20 Constitution to be biblical documents. The extent to which Mosaic law=20 would be followed in all its pedantic details varied among Identity=20 congregations, from the strictest observance-including circumcision of=20 male children-to a more conventional Christian understanding, claiming=20 that Aryan Jesus had made the ritual ordinances unnecessary. Many=20 chose Hebrew names for their children and celebrate Sabbath,=20 Passover, and other Jewish holidays.=20 British-Israelism was soon followed by the Theosophical Society with a=20 clear Aryan supremacy theory, that also claimed the US would be the=20 seat of the future, ( 6e Aryan "sub-") race, the Teutonic being the=20 momentarily leading, (5e Aryan "sub-") race.=20 Like the other two groups Theosophy will have high on its banner that=20 Humanity is "one" Brotherhood, as long everybody knows who the "elder=20 brothers" are and where the various "sub =96races" stand. One of the two=20 major spokespersons for the "White Brotherhood" made this clear in=20 the "Mahatma Letters" to Newspaper editor A.P. Sinnet Koot Hoomi in=20 British India: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub= =3D=0D - race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of=20 mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race,=20=20 Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians,=20 Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of=20 the fourth and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, = =3D=0D degraded semblances of humanity." (6)=20 According to this teaching the President of the Theosophial Society A.=20 Besant wrote: "Colonial expansion and territorial conquest as a=20 migration of races for the ultimate enrichment of the Fifth Race. This=20 sweep of time, measured in aeons and evolving land-masses, dissolves=20 the political immediacy of imperialism. The race of Teutons, the fifth sub-= =3D=0D race of the Fifth Race, is now spreading over the world, has occupied=20 greater part of North America, driving before it the old Atlantean stock;=20 it has seized Australia and New Zealand, remnants of still more ancient=20 Lemuria, and the poor relic that dying Race are vanishing before it. High=20 is it rearing its proud head over the countries of the globe, destined to=20 build a world-wide Empire, and to sway the destinies of the civilization." = =3D=0D (7)=20 To recapitulate the evolutionary scheme briefly as presented in=20 theosophy: the first two races are distinguished from the succeeding=20 three in that they are self-born and sexless, their evolution being=20 coterminous with the formation of land masses and oceans. Sexuality,=20 differentiation, and identity commence with the third root-race. The=20 disclaimer that the term root-race has no connection with the ideas=20 associated with ethnic groups or racial strains" is immediately nullified=20 by the very language of classification and hierarchy. (8)=20 Even without further detail, the admission that each race is associated=20 with a particular homeland makes a mockery of the disclaimer.=20 Despite individual differences between theosophists, there is remarkably=20 little divergence in the evolutionary scheme they present. In fact, the=20 impression of a lack of originality evoked by their common discourse=20 works eerily on the reader, who is made to feel that this new mythology=20 is virtually interchangeable with science, so strongly is its content fixed= =3D=0D =20 and closed to interpretation.=20 During the 1925 Jubilee Convention, the Theosophical Society declared=20 as one of its aims the establishment of a World Government (Ransom, A=20 short History of the TS ,1950, p. 23.) and a "World Teacher" was=20 appointed with leading members of the TS publicly announced to be the=20 reincarnation of the twelve apostles. (9)=20 But although Theosophy made claims like all cycles "end with=20 destruction," as did also later Aum Sinrikyio (Tokyo Sarin gas attacks),=20 this is not an (esoteric) Buddhist belief, but rather is inspired by the=20 Apocalypse in the Bible. Many scholars have analyzed the teachings of=20 the TS and came to the conclusion that they are a mythologization of=20 ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe and the "Mahatma=20 Letters" should be seen as a fraud.=20 The different theories explaining the various races on earth in=20 Theosophy have proven able to be combined in multiple variations,=20 without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between forces of=20 good and evil represented on earth in human form.=20 Later Identity ministers, notably Pete Peters, Mark Thomas, Bob=20 Hallstrorn and Michael A. Hoffman II, would continue the path of=20 radicalization. The formative years coincided with the rise of the black=20 civil rights movement and the subsequent transformation of American=20 race relations. Segregation was a painful process for many white=20 racialists, who found themselves in opposition to a federal government=20 that at times did not hesitate to force its will against whites in a racial= =3D=0D =20 conflict. Black Power grew as a dynamic force, and a series of violent=20 race-motivated upheavals struck fear in many American hearts.=20 Affirmative action was viewed as reversed racism, and for the first time=20 many white Americans found a racially motivated system to their=20 disadvantage. (10)=20 Immigration laws that had restricted the bulk of new Americans to racial=20 kin were altered to pave the way for a huge influx of Latin American and=20 Asian migrants. Were white Americans to become a minority in their=20 own country? The defeat in Vietnam added to the confusion. For the first=20 time in American history, a war did not end in a victory. Unable to=20 explain how the largest military power in the world could be so=20 embarrassingly beaten to -the ground by a small nation, the betrayed-by- their-leaders theory took hold as a viable explanation and was recycled=20 in an endless stream of movie productions. (11)=20 All these traumatic social tribulations contributed to the mental universe = =3D=0D of the second generation Identity adherents. During the 1970s and=20 1980s, the far right went through a process of increasing radicalization.=20 Where the earlier generation had been mainly conservative and=20 reactionary, revolutionary sentiments now proliferated as the federal=20 government gradually emerged as the enemy of the white race. During=20 this time, Christian Identity became widely diffused in National Socialist = =3D=0D and right wing extremist circles as a religious rationale for racialist=20 thought. Most of the more prominent leaders were either Christian=20 Identity ministers or passed through Christian Identity. Identity become a = =3D=0D unifying element in the otherwise fragmented and in-fighting American=20 radical right. Through ministries managing to stay slightly above the=20 complex intrigues, yearly gatherings during the 1980s were held at=20 Miles' Mountain Church in Flint, Michigan, and Pastor Butler organized=20 Aryan world congresses at his Church of Jesus Christ, Christian at=20 Hayden Lake, Idaho. The latter headquarters, Aryan Nations, also=20 became a symbol for a separatist tendency that called for whites to=20 establish a secessionist state, mostly, though not exclusively, placed in=20 the northwestern United States.=20 Christian Identity also pervaded other significant movements of these=20 decades, notably the radical localist Posse Comitatus, which refused to=20 accept any federal authority as constitutionally legitimate. The military=20 impetus gave rise to armed compounds of Christian congregations at=20 which were held survivalist training for Armageddon.=20 Militarism was also a distinct feature of the second category of white=20 religious nationalism that rose in the 1970s and 1980s. Not all white=20 racialists were content with the Jewish identity claimed for Aryans.=20=20 Christianity was held to be both alien and superstitious, negating=20 the "law of nature" as well as logical reasoning. Ukrainian-born Ben=20 Klassen founded the Church of the Creator (COTC) in 1973 in an effort=20 to develop a creed based on the concept "race as religion." Creativity=20 sharply ridiculed Identity doctrine, questioning why any sane white man=20 would "break [his] neck to distort history" only to pose as "a descendant=20 to such trash" as the ancient Hebrews.=20 Klassen states that there is no historical evidence that the Ten Tribes of = =3D=0D Israel ever existed and got lost, and if they did-good riddance! (12)=20 With at times brilliant sarcasm and irony, Klassen confronts all "spook=20 believing" creeds with the iconoclastic fervor of a nineteenth-century=20 atheist.=20 Christianity was described as a destructive force, created in an effort to = =3D=0D reduce the warrior spirit in the nature of the white man. In Nature's=20 Eternal Religion (1973), The While Man's Bible (1981) and RaHoWa:=20 This Planet Is All Ours (1987), a kind of religious dimension was added=20 to a -namely secular socio-Darwinism. Based on "nature's law," a vision=20 is outlined of the white man as a realized Nietzschean superman.=20 These anti-Christian teachings resulted in a falling out between COTC=20 and Identity leaders and distanced Klassen from much of the Klan.=20 Strongly opposed to the federal government, described as composed of=20 race traitors in the pocket of conspiring Jews, the COTC organized the=20 White Brigades at its to North Carolina, headquarters. Followers were=20 invited for a couple of weeks at a time, learning "survival skills, martial= =3D=0D =20 arts and how to use [military] weapons." (13)=20 Crativity split following its leader's suicide, but an attempt at reviving = =3D=0D the=20 COTC led by Pontifex Maximus Matt Hale came in 1996 from its 7ew=20 headquarters in Illinois. (14)=20 The 1990s is characterized by a further radicalization of white racialism. = =3D=0D The removal of the Soviet bloc as a distracting enemy allowed a clearer=20 focus on the United States' government as the force of evil. President=20 George Bush's talk of a New World Order was interpreted as confirming=20 the white racialists fears of a conspiracy to establish a one-world=20 government.=20 Irrespective of whether this was interpreted in Identity terms as the=20 prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, or understood in more secular=20 terms, the conclusion that white Americans were to be subjugated was=20 clear. Federal violence, symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and=20 the burning flames of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds=20 about what should be expected. (16)=20 The paramilitary culture merged with mistrust of the government to give=20 birth to the militia movement. Soon, different militias of various sizes=20 and durations mushroomed in the United States, preparing to defend the=20 remnants of American liberties. Though far from all of them harbor=20 explicit white racialist world-views, many of them, like, for example, the = =3D=0D Oklahoma White Militia, do. Mistrusting media, government agencies=20 and other channels of public information, conspiracy theories=20 experienced new heights, informing concerned citizens about various=20 schemes ranging from secret federal concentration camps in which=20 freedom lovers would be rounded up, to a satanic cabal involving=20 presidents, international bankers, and congressmen, who met in secret=20 for cannibalistic and necrophilic rites. (17)=20 It seemed as if America as a white nation had irrevocably lost federal=20 recognition. Whites appeared to be "the only people on the face of the=20 earth that have no national state." (18)=20 The separatist imperative was voiced by the Aryan Nations in their=20 Declaration of Independence, which was "unanimously adopted" on=20 March 12, 1996. "The United States and its `New World Order' has as=20 one of its foremost purposes, the eradication of the white race and its=20 culture." Its object is to establish "absolute [global] tyranny." "Appealin= =3D=0D g=20 to the supreme God of our folk" the representatives of the Aryan people=20 therefore "declare that the Aryan people of America, are and of rights=20 ought to be, a free and independent nation." (19)=20 In the 1990s another white nationalist religious impetus came into the=20 limelight: Odinism. With roots in the occult and/or pagan tendency of=20 German National Socialism, early American Odinist writers like Else=20 Christensen and the New Age-inspired pagan revival of the 1970s and=20 1980s, Odinism made its breakthrough among America's white=20 racialists. It attracted Christian Identity believers "who flirted with=20 Identity because it was simply the only racial theology out there," (20)=20 as well as anti-Christian Creativity adherents who felt the slogan "our=20 race is our religion" did not carry far enough. "There must be something=20 more to it." (21)=20 Odinism, or Wotanism, is a concept used to denote a racially exclusive=20 understanding of pre-Christian Norse religion, or Asatifi. Asatru is a=20 polytheist tribal religion, more akin to Native American traditions than to= =3D=0D =20 monotheistic Christianity. Whereas the omnipotent and omniscient God=20 of Christianity is of a nature fundamentally different from His creation,=20 no such unbridgeable gulf separates the realm of the Gods and=20 Goddesses in Asatru from this world.=20 Asatru is a self-experienced spiritual path whereby man can reconnect=20 with the divine within and with the animated universe in this world and=20 beyond. (22) Through ritualization it is thought possible to connect with=20 the spirits of the land, the ancestors and the guardian forces of nature.=20 Leaders of the rites, the male gothi and female gythia, are not priests in = =3D=0D the Christian sense and are invested with authority by the kindred=20 (congregation) only if they prove themselves worthy in terms of=20 knowledge and spiritual growth. Rather than being obeyed and/or=20 prayed to, the Gods and Goddesses are invoked and invited as=20 participants in the communal rituals, blots, that follow the yearly cycle o= =3D=0D f=20 nature.=20 Many travelers on the Nordic Path in addition practice meditation, runic=20 yoga or rune divination techniques. The polytheist perception of divinity=20 is reflected in the Asatru belief in multiple souls and multiple destinies.= =3D=0D =20 Though many variations exist here, generally it is said that one soul=20 goes to the abode of the dead while another soul departs to the abode=20 of the yet unborn to await his next reincarnation or recurrence. Many=20 Asatruers believe that this follows family lines, and here we touch on an=20 aspect that opens up to racial speculation. Although "race" is a late=20 concept in the history of mankind and was unknown to the ancient pre- Christian Scandinavian cultures, its modem practitioners can hardly=20 avoid its present-day reality.=20 The Asatru revival has much to do with a search for roots and identity,=20 in a similar manner in which many black Americans search for their=20 African roots or Native Americans want to honor their traditions. This=20 may or may not merge with racist ideas, and it should be emphasized=20 that modem Asatru encompasses a broad spectrum of adherents, and=20 far from all of them are inclined toward racialist ideologies. In its=20 position on race, it ranges in a continuum from the radical racialist pole = =3D=0D of Odinism to the anti-racist pole of many kindreds organized in the Ring=20 of Troth network.=20 In the middle are found two of the larger networks, the Asatru Folk=20 Assembly and the Asatru Alliance, whose spokespersons try to distance=20 themselves from either pole. Mike Murray of the Asatru Alliance=20 describes it as the ethnic religion of Northern European peoples, (23)=20 and Stephen McNallen of the Asatru Folk Assembly advances the=20 concept of meta genetics as an avenue for embracing an ancestral faith=20 without falling into the trap of negative racism. An analysis of the=20 Asatru pagan revival in contemporary United States falls outside the=20 scope of this study. (24)=20 Representing more than a hundred congregations, or "kindreds,"=20 operating in the United States and abroad, the racialist Odinist tendency=20 is propa-ated by groups and federations such as the Odinist Fellowship,=20 Wotan's Folk and Rook. Dissatisfied with the multiracial reworking of the=20 American "nation," Odinism aims at "reaching deep into the ancestral=20 past" to reconnect with the "roots of our race" in order to redevelop a=20 lost "folk consciousness. (25)=20 Asserting that each race has a genetic pool of spiritual identity, Odinism = =3D=0D believes that "all Aryans today retain an element of Wotan=20 consciousness," a revival of which would liberate the white man.=20 The Bruder Schweigen is a small closely united group of underground=20 activists, known as the Order.=20 Led by Robert Mathews, the Order initiated in the early 1980s an armed=20 struggle for the liberation of the Aryan race. Following a series of an- nored car robberies and the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg, a liberal=20 Jewish talk radio host in Denver, a dramatic man hunt took place which=20 culminated in Mathews' death and the subsequent capture of the=20 militants. David Lane was sentenced to 190 years, but says that he does=20 not regret anything: "I was only doing my duty and obeyed the will of=20 the higher powers, just as I do now in the greater plan the Gods seem=20 to have for me." During the years that have passed, the Order has=20 grown in significance and David Lane is not infrequently referred to as=20 the Mandela of the white revolution.=20 =20=20 The footnotes to the above are on my web site, and of course there=20 also "The Black Muslim" type of racist ideas. I also pointed out on my=20 web site the relationship between both black and white religious most=20 racism today is of a religious (or "philosophical" as "lm" would claim)=20 nature. There are no agknowledged scientists today that really can be=20 said to be racist. --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Hi M. >=20 > I don't think I mentioned anything about "racism." I was talking about=20 > freedom.=20 >=20 > In New York, which is a melting pot for every, ethnic, religious,=20 cultural,=20 > racial, age, financial, occupational, sexual, etc., group imaginable,=20 there=20 > is (like everyplace else where such disparate groups come into close=20 contact)=20 > some degree of disagreement, hatred, fear, intolerance, jealousy,=20 anger,=20 > etc., that is bound to exist between them. However, that sort of thing=20 cuts=20 > both ways. And, no more blame can be placed on one side than the=20 other. But,=20 > such overt discriminations are not very evident in such a big city as=20 NY,=20 > since only a few people out of each group engage in such negative=20 emotions or=20 > actions. Also, I doubt, if you can limit such discriminations solely to = =3D=0D the=20 > US -- since not all humans everywhere are Theosophists -- or Sufis.=20=20 >=20 > As for the differences between being WHITE or BLACK in the US --=20 while it=20 > still exists to a certain degree, it is very much less than before MLK Jr= =3D=0D .=20 > martyred himself in the cause of "human equality"... Not "peace," by=20 the way=20 > -- although, like Ghandi, he advocated and used peaceful resistance=20 and=20 > protest to attain freedom from oppression and suppression for black=20 > Americans.=20=20 >=20 > Peace, in the other hand, is something that can only come about when=20 all=20 > people recognize their fundamental equality, and are capable of=20 working=20 > together to choose leaders who are capable of solving their inter- group,=20 > interracial, or international differences by peaceful negotiation or=20 other=20 > means -- short of war.=20=20 >=20 > The differences you speak of and relate to peace, are not=20 between "Black and=20 > White," but between former slave and freeborn, former farmer and=20 city=20 > dweller, uneducated and educated, pauper and wealthy, ruled and=20 rulers, male=20 > and female, hetero and homosexual, and hundreds of other major=20 and minor=20 > separations and resultant discriminations that people become=20 conditioned to=20 > by their parents, schooling, peers, etc. -- while not learning how to=20 think=20 > for themselves. >=20 > This separative tendency is a fundamental problem of human nature=20 based on=20 > "ignorance" -- which cannot be changed by proselytizing, preaching,=20 edict, or=20 > government laws, rules and regulations -- but only by "self realization" = =3D=0D > gained by "self determined and self devised study and effort." Is that=20 why=20 > theosophist's know the futility of engaging in politics? And why they=20 also=20 > know that the only way for humanity to achieve real equality and real=20 peace=20 > is to simply practice it themselves -- while minding their own business=20 and=20 > not pointing fingers at others?=20 >=20 > As for "leg pulling" I'm glad you recognize (and enjoy) a good joke (on=20 you=20 > ;-) when you hear it.=20=20 >=20 > LHM (picture of a smiling bearded man wearing a French=20 beret) > "Keep on Smiling"=20 > (as sung by Louis Armstrong -- is my theme song)=20 >=20 > --------------------------- > In a message dated 11/18/02 11:23:13 AM, global-theosophy@a...=20 writes: >=20 > >Hi all of you, > > > >I laugh. > >And Yes Leon - I still have my legs, they are not gone, not yet that is!= =3D=0D > > > >So no racism in USA ? > >No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when=20 Martin Luther > >King Jr. did > >his best to make peace on this Planet ? > > > >Really....? > > > >from > >M. Sufilight with no smiles...but a happy face... > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:11 PM > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > > > > > >> Hi M. > >> > >> I hope you know when your leg is being pulled. :-) > >> > >> If you did, you wouldn't have a happy smile... You'd be laughing=20 out loud. > >> > >> In any event, I agree with Steve -- at least about the things he said > >> about freedom and Dopey Dubya. > >> > >> But, seriously, the one thing you should know is; The American=20 people (who > >> don't own the global businesses) and the people who run this=20 country and > >> make all the foreign affairs decisions, are birds of a different color= =3D=0D . > >> > >> So, when you condemn the "US" imperialism, don't blame all=20 us "Americans" > >> (although some of us may have voted, for one reason or another,=20 for the > >> assholes at the top who push the buttons. ;-) The rest of us are=20 either > >> "indigenous Americans," or a mixed bag of immigrants and their=20 descendants, > >> who are about as free as they want to be in their local State and=20 City > >> communities (each, with their own separate local laws, rules and=20 > regulations) > >> -- some of which have probably as many (or less), as ethnically=20 pure (or > >> diverse), as prejudiced (or unprejudiced), as free (or unfree)=20 people > >> as in your own country... (And, everything in-between.) > >> > >> LHM > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 11/15/02 11:44:07 AM, global-theosophy@a... > >writes: > >> > >> >HI Steve and all of you, > >> > > >> >Thanks Steve that helped a lot ! > >> >Maybe more than you would know. > >> > > >> >from > >> >M. Sufilight with a happy smile... > >> > > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "Steve Stubbs" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM > >> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians > >> > > >> > > >> >> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" No=20 Bart. > >> >> > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one=20 single > >- > >> >> extremly > >> >> > nationalistic - country which > >> >> > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname -=20 while they > >> >> do the > >> >> > opposite ! > >> >> > >> >> Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's > >> >> mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or=20 Iraq > >> >> correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush=20 says > >he > >> >> wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying > >he > >> >> wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just > >> >> inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking=20 course. > >> >> Or just resign and go away, one of the two. > >> >> > >> >> > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of=20 the > >> >> > EU-countries - looking at percentages. > >> >> > >> >> Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on > >> >> drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes=20 sense > >on > >> >> the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of > >> >> work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws=20 were > >> >> reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment=20 line. > > It > >> >> is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a=20 vested > >> >> interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it. > >> >> > >> >> Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the=20 political > >> >> spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the=20 left. > >> >> > >> >> > And what about the arab countries or India ? > >> >> > >> >> They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt=20 about > >> >> it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss=20 that. > >> >> Some of us hope we can catch up someday. > >> >> > >> >> > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails > >of > >> >> USA are > >> >> > allowed "FREE MIXING". > >> >> > >> >> Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends > >> >> Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of=20 Palestinians. > >> >> > >> >> > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular=20 country > >? > >> >> > >> >> I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past=20 one. > >> >> > >> >> > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace=20 is > >> >> important. > >> >> > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ? > >> >> > >> >> Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need=20 help going > >> >> to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he=20 has a > >> >> rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable. > >> >> The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does=20 not > >get > >> >> beaten too badly. > >> >> > >> >> You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an > >> >> accurate view of the situation. > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 03:32:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 11:32:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 69833 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 11:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 11:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 11:32:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 11:32:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:32:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question for Paul about Brigitte Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4658 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED > CHARACTERS? Has anyone ever seen Brigitte and Daniel in the same room together? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. Daniel is the only librarian I ever heard of who can take a five month vacation; I'm lucky to get five days in a row every other year or so. Brigitte too manages to take extremely long vacations. Neither appears to have any worldly responsibilities that would interfere with spending 24/7 on the Net defending and attacking Theosophy and the Masters. Maybe they should vacation together this year. You can start by > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > called name. Wry adds to the mix of mystery and gameplaying by being pseudonymous himself and dropping hints without being willing to express with clarity what he is getting at. Well, regardless, I will point myself out as exhibit #1, someone who has wasted endless hours and energy ensnarled in the games of both Daniel and Brigitte, taking them both as sincere when both are only interested in playing games with me and each other. I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same thing. There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. What morality justifies making this accusation in a veiled and pseudonymous way rather than openly? > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. Same smell is detectable here, but do we have a Theosophist impersonating an insane anti-Theosophist to make anti-Theosophy look bad, or vice versa, or both, or neither? > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. Not questioning you, but commenting that you are adding to the mystery and confusion. I am > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you > people, Same here but I have had extensive dealings with these mysterious web denizens. though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, > Wry > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > > August of this year. I know that you have been playing some ridiculous game going on and on about this subject, when it's apparent to everyone else that they manage the same website, ergo... > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] > it > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. A forum closed down in part because of your success in infiltrating it with a spy and then crowing about said success on another list. > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? Of course not. Nor can I confirm anything about you and your motives, or her/him and her/his, except that there is a hell of a lot of game playing going on all around. Sure would love to know what is up but am not counting on any honesty and sincerity from anyone about it since Wry too just adds to the weirdness. Too exasperated to keep up with all this crap, Paul > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > week > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > Daniel From alpha@dircon.co.uk Sat Nov 23 03:50:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: alpha@dircon.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 11:50:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 7775 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 11:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 11:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost2.dircon.co.uk) (194.112.32.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 11:50:10 -0000 Received: from default (th-en137-096.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.55.96]) by mailhost2.dircon.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0918362E4C for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:50:09 +0000 (GMT) To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:52:24 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Tony" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=42271540 unsubscribe From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 04:17:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 12:17:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 90532 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 12:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 12:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 12:17:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 12:17:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:17:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3100 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Brian writes or posts: "Irrespective of whether this was interpreted in Identity terms as the prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, or understood in more secular terms, the conclusion that white Americans were to be subjugated was clear. Federal violence, symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and the burning flames of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds about what should be expected." Comment: I was watching a Christian broadcast and on it there was a Jewish author who had just published, had book published, in which he provides evidence, hard evidence, that Prince Charles of England is the anti-christ. He says that Charles can or does trace himself back to King David. And you say that there is a bridge between the Jews of England and the British that would almost make it sound like those Brits who were sent here on the Mayflower or the pilgrims were mostly Jews! And that would make of most Americans not only part Native American, which runs through most of the population in the Americas, but also part Jewish. I know Bailey said that Jews are basically found everywhere, but is that what you are implying here? As well as predicting the fall of the Aryan man? The US is the only country in the world that has not declared its majority's language as the official language i.e. English. Or have I missed that somewhere, has this ever been declared and put in writing that English is this country's official language. If not then Spanish could very well be declared the official language of America, and soon. Finally Brian: If even 1/10th of what you posted has any basis in truth, then it would seem that race would have to be an invention of Satan, and not from God. Because it is here not to restore our faith in the human race, but to destroy it by being blinded by it. Did God intend us to be blinded by color? MLK said that we would become a color blind society and that men would be judged by the content of their character, and NOT the color of their skin. And that implies that one has to have some damn character in the first place before being judged. But being a Christian preacher he is still using words like judgement and character and the like. So, even in his high-road approach of what is to come he is still using words which indicate that someone has to EARN their way into being loved, accepted, wanted, and most of all SEEN. Not be the invisible man on the block. Is MLK telling his own people they better straighten up or else? They as well as others need some character to call their own in order to be a part of the 'new order?' and in order to be acceptable and loved as well. I don't see it the way MLK sees it, and I don't really think 'God' sees it that way either. Energy is impersonal, what we do with it makes us in the eyes of men -- angels or devils--white or black, good or evil. These are the meanings we as a culture have attributed to white: good, angelic...etc. So where do you suggest we start Brian? We are really all Latinos at heart. I know I am part Cuban. Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 04:20:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 12:20:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 45412 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 12:20:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 12:20:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 12:20:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 12:20:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:20:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Images of the Supreme ---- Thought Forms??? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 I thought we were all just walking holograms? God a thought form? Perish the thought....just kidding.... Netemara ************* --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > In his book "THE COSMIC WOMB: An Interpretation of Man's > Relationship to the Infinite," the metaphysican Arthur W. Osborn > writes: > > "Images of the Supreme, although taken for the Ultimate by some > simple devotees, are more readily explicable as projections, either > individual or communal, of doctrinal beliefs concerning Krishna, > Christ, Kali or other personalized aspects of Deity. We > say 'communal' projections because any religious symbol, which > perhaps for centuries has become a focus for devotion, could assume > concrete reality. Occultism provides some striking instances of the > power of group thinking to create 'thought forms' of sufficient > intensity to become 'objects' of perception. Centers of energy would > seem to have been formed on some superphysical plane capable of > exercising influence in physical affairs. . . ." p. 59 From robertnewman@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 07:18:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 15:18:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 20980 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 15:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 15:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 15:18:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 15:18:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:18:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed -- SEEING GOD Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1211 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 66.214.137.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: ...unless we agree that we are studying together and seeking to discover things together the conversation has not much future. Dallas, people cannot discover things together unless they agree to accept the same principles of epistemology. I have stated that the only proof of the existence of anything, phenomenal or noumenal, material or transcendental, is direct experience of the same. Either we have such an experience ourselves, in which case the issue is not a matter of faith but of certainty, or we accept the possibility on faith, based on the reported experiences of others whom we find credible, for one reason or another. You, on the other hand, seem to accept only possibilities which fall within the scope of Theosophical metaphysics and psychology. That is certainly your privilege, and again, if it works for you, I wouldn't want to disturb you. But in that case there is no question of fruitful discussion; we're speaking different languages on the most fundamental level. Still, as a fellow seeker, I thank you for this stimulating exchange, and I wish you all the best. Hare Krishna, as we say in the "trade." :-D Robert From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 07:19:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 15:19:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 95473 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 15:19:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 15:19:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 15:19:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 15:19:11 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:19:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4625 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wry" wrote: > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach ... Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or Church of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take over and offer your own product whatever it is. Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group where you belong. Brian. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" wrote: > TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, > > FOR THOSE WHO HAVE STILL NOT READ THE POSTS REGARDING BHAKTI ANANDA > GOSWAMI'S IDENTITY AND CREDENTIALS. PLEASE SEE THE WORLD VAISHNAVA > ASSOCIATION (WVA) HOME PAGE NAMING ME TO HEAD THEIR INTERFAITH > COMMITTEE. PLEASE ALSO READ THE 1994 ORBIS BOOKS > PUBLICATION "EMBRACING EARTH : CATHOLIC APPROACHES TO THEOLOGY" ISBN > # 0-88344-966-8, EDITED BY PROF. JOHN E. CARROLL AND ALBERT J. LA > CHANCE. ORBIS BOOKS IS THE PUBLISHING HOUSE OF MARYKNOLL, THE > CATHOLIC FOREIGN MISSIONARY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. THEIR ADDRESS IS P O > BOX 308, MARYKNOLL, NY, 10545-0308, USA. > > I, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AKA BROTHER DAVID SHERMAN, WAS INVITED BY > THE EDITORS TO CONTRIBUTE A CHAPTER TO THIS BOOK ON THE ROLE OF > ASCETICISM IN THE JUDEO-CATHOLIC TRADITION, AND THE RELEVANCE OF > ABSTINENCE AND ASCETICISM AND OTHER TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC AND GANDHIAN > VAISHNAVA PRACTICES TO ECOLOGY TODAY. THE BOOK IDENTIFIES ME AS A > SANNYASI BY MY ORDAINED NAME BELOW, AND ALSO BY MY CHRISTIAN NAME. > > MY CHAPTER IS TITLED "CHOOSE LIFE". THE BOOK HAS RECEIVED PRAISE > FROM CATHOLIC LEADERS AND HAS BEEN USED IN PARISH COURSES, AS WELL AS > DISTRIBUTED BY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. > > PLEASE STOP INSULTING MYSELF, MY DAUGHTER AND OTHERS BY CLAIMING THAT > WE ARE NOT REAL PERSONS, AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS INVENTED US. > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > D catt; --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > Muehlbach > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED > > CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I > will > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can start > by > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > > called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical > in > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT > EVEN > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a > spiritual > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There > is > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my > imagination. > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I am > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for > you > > people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of > theosophy, > > Wry > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie > about > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > > > August of this year. > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum > [WET?] > > it > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from > today > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > > week > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 07:31:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 15:31:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 43219 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 15:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 15:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 15:31:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 15:31:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:31:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3529 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Belonging to the same missionary group as Wry, you seem to be more intelligent and have a sense of humor. So lets make a deal , you the smart one stays, Wry goes, oke ? Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "netemara888" wrote: > Brian writes or posts: "Irrespective of whether this was interpreted > in Identity terms as the prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, > or understood in more secular terms, the conclusion that white > Americans were to be subjugated was clear. Federal violence, > symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and the burning flames > of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds about what should > be expected." > > Comment: I was watching a Christian broadcast and on it there was a > Jewish author who had just published, had book published, in which he > provides evidence, hard evidence, that Prince Charles of England is > the anti-christ. He says that Charles can or does trace himself back > to King David. And you say that there is a bridge between the Jews of > England and the British that would almost make it sound like those > Brits who were sent here on the Mayflower or the pilgrims were mostly > Jews! And that would make of most Americans not only part Native > American, which runs through most of the population in the Americas, > but also part Jewish. > > I know Bailey said that Jews are basically found everywhere, but is > that what you are implying here? As well as predicting the fall of > the Aryan man? The US is the only country in the world that has not > declared its majority's language as the official language i.e. > English. Or have I missed that somewhere, has this ever been declared > and put in writing that English is this country's official language. > If not then Spanish could very well be declared the official language > of America, and soon. > > Finally Brian: If even 1/10th of what you posted has any basis in > truth, then it would seem that race would have to be an invention of > Satan, and not from God. Because it is here not to restore our faith > in the human race, but to destroy it by being blinded by it. Did God > intend us to be blinded by color? MLK said that we would become a > color blind society and that men would be judged by the content of > their character, and NOT the color of their skin. And that implies > that one has to have some damn character in the first place before > being judged. But being a Christian preacher he is still using words > like judgement and character and the like. So, even in his high-road > approach of what is to come he is still using words which indicate > that someone has to EARN their way into being loved, accepted, > wanted, and most of all SEEN. Not be the invisible man on the block. > > Is MLK telling his own people they better straighten up or else? They > as well as others need some character to call their own in order to > be a part of the 'new order?' and in order to be acceptable and loved > as well. I don't see it the way MLK sees it, and I don't really > think 'God' sees it that way either. Energy is impersonal, what we do > with it makes us in the eyes of men -- angels or devils--white or > black, good or evil. These are the meanings we as a culture have > attributed to white: good, angelic...etc. So where do you suggest we > start Brian? > > We are really all Latinos at heart. I know I am part Cuban. > > Netemara From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 07:45:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 70981 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:45:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte on Wry!!!!!!!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 747 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte, you wrote: "Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or Church of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take over and offer your own product whatever it is." "Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group where you belong." Brian, I just got out of bed this morning and thought I would read the latest postings on Theos-Talk when I ran across your above post. This is the funniest post I have ever read on any of the Internet forums. Chuck, definitely has competition! [OBTW, where is Chuck? I guess hanging out on Theos-L.] My side is hurting from laughing so much. :) Thanks Brian/Brigitte for the entertainment you've provided on this forum. ;) Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 08:09:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 16:09:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 82754 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 16:09:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 16:09:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 16:09:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 16:09:44 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:09:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question for Paul about Brigitte Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5288 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.5 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Paul: I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same thing. Brian: Well here Paul you are getting delusional, (like the eel you once saw in your pond and thought there must have been a deeep meaning to it.. What you just wrote is simple not true. You miss the boat pall. --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED > > CHARACTERS? > > Has anyone ever seen Brigitte and Daniel in the same room together? > > As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. > > Daniel is the only librarian I ever heard of who can take a five month vacation; I'm lucky to get five days in a row every other year or so. Brigitte too manages to take extremely long vacations. Neither appears to have any worldly responsibilities that would interfere with spending 24/7 on the Net defending and attacking Theosophy and the Masters. Maybe they should vacation together this year. > > You can start by > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > > called name. > > Wry adds to the mix of mystery and gameplaying by being pseudonymous himself and dropping hints without being willing to express with clarity what he is getting at. Well, regardless, I will point myself out as exhibit #1, someone who has wasted endless hours and energy ensnarled in the games of both Daniel and Brigitte, taking them both as sincere when both are only interested in playing games with me and each other. I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same thing. > > There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > What morality justifies making this accusation in a veiled and pseudonymous way rather than openly? > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. > > Same smell is detectable here, but do we have a Theosophist impersonating an insane anti-Theosophist to make anti-Theosophy look bad, or vice versa, or both, or neither? > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. > > Not questioning you, but commenting that you are adding to the mystery and confusion. > > I am > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you > > people, > > Same here but I have had extensive dealings with these mysterious web denizens. > > though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, > > Wry > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > > > August of this year. > > I know that you have been playing some ridiculous game going on and on about this subject, when it's apparent to everyone else that they manage the same website, ergo... > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] > > it > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > A forum closed down in part because of your success in infiltrating it with a spy and then crowing about said success on another list. > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > Of course not. Nor can I confirm anything about you and your motives, or her/him and her/his, except that there is a hell of a lot of game playing going on all around. > > Sure would love to know what is up but am not counting on any honesty and sincerity from anyone about it since Wry too just adds to the weirdness. > > Too exasperated to keep up with all this crap, > > Paul > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > > week > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > Daniel From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 08:18:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 16:18:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 76325 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 16:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 16:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 16:18:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 16:18:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:18:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: A question for Paul about Brigitte Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6356 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Paul: I'm only half sincere in suggesting they > may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of > the same > thing. Daniel: HPB's claims about the Masters are all 100% true and anyone who questions that deserves a big dose of hostility. Brian: HPB's claims about the Masters are all 100% false and anyone who questions that deserves a big dose of hostility. I don't know whose interests are served by all this hostility and ugliness but not mine. Outta here, Paul PS-- The other reason WET was closed down was my discovery that Brigitte had claimed for herself discoveries in the India Office Library that had actually been made by Christy Campbell, and induced me to credit her with them in articles on her website. Two years after Campbell's book was published in England it came out in the US and I learned how I'd been deceived. > > Brian: Well here Paul you are getting delusional, (like the eel you once > saw in your pond and thought there must have been a deeep meaning > to it.. > > What you just wrote is simple not true. You miss the boat pall. > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "kpauljohnson" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > Muehlbach > > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL > FABRICATED > > > CHARACTERS? > > > > Has anyone ever seen Brigitte and Daniel in the same room together? > > > > As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will > > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. > > > > Daniel is the only librarian I ever heard of who can take a five month > vacation; I'm lucky to get five days in a row every other year or so. > Brigitte too manages to take extremely long vacations. Neither appears > to have any worldly responsibilities that would interfere with spending > 24/7 on the Net defending and attacking Theosophy and the Masters. > Maybe they should vacation together this year. > > > > You can start by > > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > > > called name. > > > > Wry adds to the mix of mystery and gameplaying by being > pseudonymous himself and dropping hints without being willing to > express with clarity what he is getting at. Well, regardless, I will point > myself out as exhibit #1, someone who has wasted endless hours and > energy ensnarled in the games of both Daniel and Brigitte, taking them > both as sincere when both are only interested in playing games with me > and each other. I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the > same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same > thing. > > > > There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in > > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT > EVEN > > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is > needed > > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual > > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is > doing > > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is > > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > > > What morality justifies making this accusation in a veiled and > pseudonymous way rather than openly? > > > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. > > > > Same smell is detectable here, but do we have a Theosophist > impersonating an insane anti-Theosophist to make anti-Theosophy look > bad, or vice versa, or both, or neither? > > > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. > > > > Not questioning you, but commenting that you are adding to the > mystery and confusion. > > > > I am > > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you > > > people, > > > > Same here but I have had extensive dealings with these mysterious > web denizens. > > > > though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, > > > Wry > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > wrote: > > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here > since > > > > August of this year. > > > > I know that you have been playing some ridiculous game going on and > on about this subject, when it's apparent to everyone else that they > manage the same website, ergo... > > > > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum > [WET?] > > > it > > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > A forum closed down in part because of your success in infiltrating it > with a spy and then crowing about said success on another list. > > > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > Of course not. Nor can I confirm anything about you and your > motives, or her/him and her/his, except that there is a hell of a lot of > game playing going on all around. > > > > Sure would love to know what is up but am not counting on any > honesty and sincerity from anyone about it since Wry too just adds to > the weirdness. > > > > Too exasperated to keep up with all this crap, > > > > Paul > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from > today > > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > > > week > > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > > > Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 08:23:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 60844 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:23:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The last of the Theosophy topics. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 13220 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Just decided since I have three more days of material left, I will keep my = =3D=0D web site updated that long, but after that I am going to finish entirely=20 with Theosophy related issues. Just received a note from Goswami that=20 due to an intensive and long day he feels ill at the moment but writes=20 that tomorrow he will write his 4e part to the resonses about the=20 Mahatma letters he has send. To me that probably answers the furthe=20 questions of the authenticity of the Mahatma letters, and the multiple=20 personalitys que Mahatma figures have been covered in The Masters=20 Revealed and the lasr three years of discussions with Steve then=20 Universal seekers, and finally here. The majority western roots int he=20 Mahatma teachings in Blavatsky has been coverred also. There is just one secre left unsolved mystery, that of "AL-AFGHANI."=20 There is the website:=20 http://www.geocities.com/aryannews/europe.htm And I still wonder if here is a hint, why/how Afghani, the Christian- British raised Dalip Singh, Katkov (besides the Blavatsky "Atlantis/via=20 Tibet theory" the most popular theory that time was that the Aryan's=20 came from S. Russia and settled in the Indus river valley in the Punjab)=20 and Afghani, could find a "common" ground the "Muslim"(otherwise=20 enemies of the Punjabi Sikhs) Afghani was indeed "Iranian". Born in a country that was part of the Aryan myth, so was Dalip, and=20 Katkov according to the myth told in the 19th century about this subject = =20 (and I never wanted to imply they where intended racist that time!) but=20 we do find in the SD that same "common ground" like: "As the comparatively fair Brahmins have come - when invading India=20 with its dark-colored Dravidians - from the North, so the Aryan Fifth=20 Race must claim its origin from northern regions." (The Secret Doctrine=20 Vol. 2, Page 768) The dwarfed and weakened men of Bengal and the Deccan with Punjab,=20 where the lethal influence of Mussulman, and later on of European,=20 licentiousness, has hardly touched the orthodox Aryan castes, [and=20 there] one ,still finds the finest men - so far as stature and physical strength go on the whole globe. (Secret Doctrine Vol.II, Adyar=20 1979, p.411) Also in spite of missing evidence to me it seems difficult to accept that = =3D=0D Henderson would have made such a grand mistake when he staked his=20 claim after so many years on this case as an under=20 secretary to the government of India , and who also wasthe chief=20 investigator of the Dalip Singh revolt in India.=20 Convinced he wrote on 15 June 1887 regarding information received=20 on "excellent authority," to the Police Commissioner of Madras. " When=20 Colonel Olcott was in India in 1882-83, he founded a secret society=20 among the Theosophists in Calcutta called=82 "The Aryan League of=20 Honour." The purpose of this secret society is said to be to send=20 information to Russia, and the headquarters are now said to be in=20 Madras.=20 An agent of the society was sent to England and is supposed to be the=20 medium, or one of the mediums, of transmitting information. (Meaning=20 The Mahatma Letters !?) This man is one Mohini Mohun Chatterji, who worked for some time in=20 an attorney`s office at Calcutta. About four years ago he went to England on the plea of being called to the Bar. He is known to have=20 made frequent visits to the continent, and is now in America ostensibly=20 engaged on a translation of the Vedas, a task for which I understand he=20 possesses no qualifications whatever. I heard from England myself that=20 Mohini Mohun was in the habit of seeing a great deal of Duleep Singh.=20 There is a prevailing impression, whether right or wrong, that the=20 members of the inner circle at any rate of that society have aims and=20 objects other than those ordinarily expressed. The information on this subject, comes from so many sources that it is difficult to disregard = =3D=0D it.=20 And at the present time the necessity for vigilance to intrigues going on in India has been impressed on the Government of India." (end quote Colonel Hendorsen's letter )=20 On 18 June, three days later, the deputy Police Commissioner of=20 Madras confirmed base on his own sources that such a secret "Aryan League of Honour" really existed and wrote to Henderson:=20 " only a few selected men were admitted, amongst these were Narendo Nath Sen, the Editor of The India Mirror. Mohini Mohun is one=20 of their means of transmitting information, and his brother, Romoni, also=20 sends him news." (India Office Records, British Library, London: R/1/1/162) And if one puts everything together that is known today (2002)of the=20 Katkov/French/Dalip/ and Afghani who during his stay in London=20 (certainly just like some of the Masonic lodge members in Cairo he=20 was "British")lived in the house of the person close to Viceroy in India=20 that time who he was leter to visit. If you ad that to "The Master Revealed": IN JANUARY 1886, OLCOTT PROPOSED to HPB that she=20 assist in establishing a collaboration between the Brahmin Theosophist T. Subba Row and some Masters of the Egyptian=20 brotherhood. This never came to fruition, but Olcott's letter is=20 fascinating: Subba Row is getting keen on a collation of Indian and Egyptian esoteric philosophy and symbolism .... He keeps coming here and=20 always asks for books which deal with Egyptian Mythology etc. Now do=20 this: through Borj, or Twitit B: or III: or someone, arrange to organize at=20 Cairo a couple like Subba Row and Oakley, who would keep in regular=20 correspondence with these two, and exchange ideas, questions and=20 answers .... Maspero is anxious to make just such a correspondence,=20 but he is too thundering busy. If there were an Oakley there to go at=20 him, hunt up the books he would indicate, and write the letters,=20 enormously good results would follow all around, for Maspero would put it all in his books and Reports, and we would put it into the Th. and=20 books. Would Gregoire d'Elias be any good? I think not. Would Isurenus B. help you?' This passage gives three new names to investigate in the search for the Masters. It is interesting in itself that Olcott refers to Hilarion III= =3D=0D :),=20 Tuitit Bey, and Isurenus Bey (who signed Olcott's first letter from the=20 Masters as Polydorus Isurenus) in such matter of fact terms. 3ut far=20 more useful to researchers are the names of Borj, Maspero,=20 and ,regoire d'Elias. A search through the Theosophical literature uncovered no Borj, Olcott's handwriting deceived the letters' compiler Trevor Barker on=20 more than one occasion. For example, he takes an obvious reference .o=20 the Sinhalese Buddhist priest Sumangala as "Samanyala," which implies that Olcott's g's are not readily identifiable. A Borg appears in one the=20 most important of all Mahatma communications, the one K. H. made=20 materialize in Olcott's hand when he appeared in his tent outside Lcihore in November 1883. It accuses Olcott of being overly=20 suspicious, "sometimes cruelly so-of Upasika, of Borg, of Djual-K., even of Damodar and D. Nath, whom you love as sons.", In the diary she kept in New York, HPB referred to someone whose=20 name is transcribed as "Boag" from whom she had received mail. The=20 entry for 6 December reads, "A letter from Richard and Boag informing=20 of the arrival from Russia of a parcel.", Again, questions of handwriting confuse the issue, giving three spellings of what would=20 seem to be the same name. But of the variant spellings it becomes=20 apparent that Borg is correct when we examine Nikki Keddie's biography=20 of Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani. She writes that "Afghani and a group of his=20 followers first joined an Italian lodge in Alexandria, but were influenced= =3D=0D =20 by EnglishVice-Consul Ralph Borg to join an English lodge, whose=20 numbers reached 300, including many leaders of the nationalist=20 movement of 1878-1882 . The case that HPB's Egyptian Brotherhood was the circle=20 surrounding Afghani is considerably strengthened by these fragments of evidence concerning Borg. Who Was Who gives his first name as=20 Raphael; Keddie's error is due to reliance on Muhammad Sabry, whose=20 information came from oral testimony of eyewitnesses years after=20 Afghani's departure. Who Was Who also summarizes Borg's career,=20 spent almost entirely in Egypt. Beginning as a supernumary clerk to the consular court in Alexandria in 1863, he became chief clerk there the=20 same year. In 1865 he was appointed cancellaria clerk in Cairo, where=20 he was later acting consul for various periods from 1868 to 1875. After serving as acting vice-consul in Cairo in 1875-76 he became viceconsul in 1880. In 1884 he was appointed consul there which he=20 remained for the rest of his career except for an interval as acting consul-general in 1895. He died 24 January 1903.=20 The most likely Richard to whom HPB refers seems to be Charles Louis=20 Florentin Richard, French Orientalist and author of Scenes of Arab Life,=20 Mysteries of the Arab People, Inevitable Revolutions in the World and=20 Humanity, and other books. A source of information on Borg's links with Afghani and Sanua is=20 Juan R. I. Cole's Colonialism and Revolution in the Middle East. Cole=20 surveys Egyptian history from 1858 through the British occupation of=20 1882, emphasizing the origins of the nationalist movement. His research made extensive use of the Egyptian National Archives,=20 manuscript collections in Egypt and the United States, and published=20 literaturein Arabic and English. Borg is frequently cited as an eyewitness = =3D=0D to events.=20 Most often, he is quoted to document expressions of unrest among the=20 peasantry, military and intelligentsia. Identified by Cole as a "Maltese fluent in Arabic," Borg is a central figure in the chapter entitle= =3D=0D d "Political Clubs and the Ideology of Dissent.", The most fruit ful source o= =3D=0D f=20 information on his Masonic links with Afghani and Sanua is a collection of documents confiscated from Jamal ad-Din at the time of his expulsion from Egypt. Sanua's relationship with Isma'il had gone through several phases by=20 the time he joined the Star of the East lodge which Borg had established in Cairo. After a period as tutor in the home of Isma'il's predecessor Sa'id, Sanua taught at the Cairo Polytechnic Institute for=20 most of the 1860s. From 1870 through 1872 he served as=20 Isma'il's "court playwright", until he lost his position after offending th= =3D=0D e=20 Khedive and the British. In 1874 and 1875 he founded two political=20 organizations which were quickly proscribed by Isma'il, the Circle of=20 Progress and the Society of the Lovers of Knowledge.,, Afghani joined the Star of the East lodge around the same time as=20 Sanua, and from December 1877 through July 1879 he served as=20 president of lodge 1355. It is unclear how many Star of the East lodges existed in Cairo at the time, and to which group Borg and Sanua=20 belonged. Cole explains the circumstances surrounding the closing of=20 lodge 1355: The leaders of the Star of the East closed down Cairo lodge 1355 on 1=20 July 1879 and forbade its leader from engaging in any further masonic=20 activity until the order's highest leadership (in Europe?) could be=20 consulted, citing Sayyid Jarnalu'd-Din's political agitation in Egypt. According to Sayyid Jamalu'd Din's answers during police interrogation after his arrest, however, the main issue over which he=20 and the Star of the East leadership quarreled had rather to do with=20 which successor to Isma'il each supported. Sayyid Jamalu'd-Din and his=20 followers wanted Isma'il's son Tawfiq, whereas Raphael Borg and other=20 leaders of the Star of the East favored Isma'il's uncle, 'Abdu'l-Halim.' That Sanua sided with Borg against Afghani is clear from his Abou=20 Naddara, which promoted the cause of 'Abdu'l-Halim. Jamal ad-Din soon=20 had cause to regret his support for Tawfiq, who had him arrested 21=20 August 1879 "as head of a secret society of youth that formed a menace both to religion and to the state" and had him deported soon=20 thereafter. Jamal ad-Din's friendship with Sanua clearly survived the collapse of lodge 1355. In 1884, when Afghani went to Paris, he was on cordial terms with Sanua, who taught him French. The status of=20 Borg's relations with Sanua and Jamal ad-Din after 1879 is unknown. No trace of Borg as the author or subject of a book was found in the - ourse of research, but Gregoire d'Elias appears to have been the author of a play published in Seville in 1871. Entitled Lo Que Tiene Mi Mujer, it is listed as a comic one-act play in verse by Gregorio Esteban de= =3D=0D Elias. Gaston Maspero (1846-1916) was a French Egyptologist and author of=20 many books on Egypt. Born in Paxis of Italian parents, he became=20 Professor of Egyptology at the college de France in 1874. According to Isabel Cooper-Oakley-', During her stay in Egypt 1885, HPB was received as a distinguished guest by the Russian consul and the=20 Khedive.(end quote) There just seem to be to many correlations here to forget about Jamal=20 ad-Din. Who in the late 1850s was already reported to have been in India. And left again for India around the same time Olcott and=20 HPB (both traveling on US diplomatic passports) did. Doesn't the puzzle regarding al afghani seems to fit ? = =3D=0D Bri. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 08:52:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 16:52:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 56050 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 16:52:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 16:52:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 16:52:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 16:52:44 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:52:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Thanks Paul for your latest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7368 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Paul, Thanks for your latest. What you say about me is nothing new but I find your comments about Brigitte Muehlegger/Brian Muehlbach fascinating. I like your observation that: ". . . it's apparent to everyone else that they [Brian/Brigitte] manage the same website, ergo..." It would appear that you agree with Bill Meredith's observation. [NOTE: I bet B/B won't comment on the "ergo" part!] Paul, when you write about "an insane anti-Theosophist" are you referring to Brigitte/Brian or to someone else?? :) Concerning your comment: ". . . I will point myself out as exhibit #1, someone who has wasted endless hours and energy ensnarled in the games of both Daniel and Brigitte, taking them both as sincere when both are only interested in playing games with me and each other. I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same thing." ". . . manifestations of the SAME THING"???? Hmmmmm. I will simply point out that I do not personally insult people and call them names. For contrast, consider the following comments by Brigitte/Brian. See B/B's latest comments about Wry: "Wry you are obviously a fake . . . ." Or Brigitte/Brian's negative comment a week or two ago about the majority of subscribers to this forum! B/B wrote to Wes: ". . . theos talk . . . [is] evidently a true meeting ground for crazed out crack pots who believe in 'free energy solar engines' and so on. Exceptions are Steve Stubbs and a very, very, few others." Paul, please remember what B/B called Dr. Brendan French on this forum a year ago: ". . . in my experience Brendan French is a compulsive lyer and a cheat. Brigitte" Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3642 Apparently this response by B/B was to Dr. French's observation that B/B had published parts of his dissertation on B/B's website without his permission, etc. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3348 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3429 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3475 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3526 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3664 And Paul don't foreget the accusation B/B made against Dr. Gregory Tillett. One could cite more of B/B's insulting comments about many other subscribers on Theos-L, Theos-Talk and Universal Seekers, but I think you get my point. Daniel K. Paul Johnson wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian Muehlbach > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL FABRICATED > > CHARACTERS? > > Has anyone ever seen Brigitte and Daniel in the same room together? > > As for who is the person who could be doing this, I will > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. > > Daniel is the only librarian I ever heard of who can take a five month vacation; I'm lucky to get five days in a row every other year or so. Brigitte too manages to take extremely long vacations. Neither appears to have any worldly responsibilities that would interfere with spending 24/7 on the Net defending and attacking Theosophy and the Masters. Maybe they should vacation together this year. > > You can start by > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" so- > > called name. > > Wry adds to the mix of mystery and gameplaying by being pseudonymous himself and dropping hints without being willing to express with clarity what he is getting at. Well, regardless, I will point myself out as exhibit #1, someone who has wasted endless hours and energy ensnarled in the games of both Daniel and Brigitte, taking them both as sincere when both are only interested in playing games with me and each other. I'm only half sincere in suggesting they may be the same person, but at some level they are manifestations of the same thing. > > There seems to be a rich tradition of the theatrical in > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is needed > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a spiritual > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is doing > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even possible. > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. There is > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > What morality justifies making this accusation in a veiled and pseudonymous way rather than openly? > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but maybe > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my imagination. > > Same smell is detectable here, but do we have a Theosophist impersonating an insane anti-Theosophist to make anti-Theosophy look bad, or vice versa, or both, or neither? > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. > > Not questioning you, but commenting that you are adding to the mystery and confusion. > > I am > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out for you > > people, > > Same here but I have had extensive dealings with these mysterious web denizens. > > though I write this as your friend and a friend of theosophy, > > Wry > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie about > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on this > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here since > > > August of this year. > > I know that you have been playing some ridiculous game going on and on about this subject, when it's apparent to everyone else that they manage the same website, ergo... > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian and > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum [WET?] > > it > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > A forum closed down in part because of your success in infiltrating it with a spy and then crowing about said success on another list. > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > Of course not. Nor can I confirm anything about you and your motives, or her/him and her/his, except that there is a hell of a lot of game playing going on all around. > > Sure would love to know what is up but am not counting on any honesty and sincerity from anyone about it since Wry too just adds to the weirdness. > > Too exasperated to keep up with all this crap, > > Paul > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from today > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the next > > week > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > Daniel From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 09:25:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 17:25:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 83259 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 17:25:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 17:25:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 17:25:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 17:25:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:25:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5578 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wry: honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. Brian: This is noncence you made a list of false claims. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > I don't know if this information will help you out Paul, but I am > from the honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. Wry > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Wry" wrote: > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > Muehlbach ... > > > > Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or > Church > > of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take over > > and offer your own product whatever it is. > > > > Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group where > you > > belong. > > > Brian. > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > > wrote: > > > TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, > > > > > > FOR THOSE WHO HAVE STILL NOT READ THE POSTS REGARDING > > BHAKTI ANANDA > > > GOSWAMI'S IDENTITY AND CREDENTIALS. PLEASE SEE THE WORLD > > VAISHNAVA > > > ASSOCIATION (WVA) HOME PAGE NAMING ME TO HEAD THEIR > > INTERFAITH > > > COMMITTEE. PLEASE ALSO READ THE 1994 ORBIS BOOKS > > > PUBLICATION "EMBRACING EARTH : CATHOLIC APPROACHES TO > > THEOLOGY" ISBN > > > # 0-88344-966-8, EDITED BY PROF. JOHN E. CARROLL AND ALBERT J. > > LA > > > CHANCE. ORBIS BOOKS IS THE PUBLISHING HOUSE OF MARYKNOLL, > > THE > > > CATHOLIC FOREIGN MISSIONARY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. THEIR > > ADDRESS IS P O > > > BOX 308, MARYKNOLL, NY, 10545-0308, USA. > > > > > > I, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AKA BROTHER DAVID SHERMAN, WAS > > INVITED BY > > > THE EDITORS TO CONTRIBUTE A CHAPTER TO THIS BOOK ON THE > > ROLE OF > > > ASCETICISM IN THE JUDEO-CATHOLIC TRADITION, AND THE > > RELEVANCE OF > > > ABSTINENCE AND ASCETICISM AND OTHER TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC > > AND GANDHIAN > > > VAISHNAVA PRACTICES TO ECOLOGY TODAY. THE BOOK IDENTIFIES > > ME AS A > > > SANNYASI BY MY ORDAINED NAME BELOW, AND ALSO BY MY > > CHRISTIAN NAME. > > > > > > MY CHAPTER IS TITLED "CHOOSE LIFE". THE BOOK HAS RECEIVED > > PRAISE > > > FROM CATHOLIC LEADERS AND HAS BEEN USED IN PARISH > > COURSES, AS WELL AS > > > DISTRIBUTED BY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. > > > > > > PLEASE STOP INSULTING MYSELF, MY DAUGHTER AND OTHERS BY > > CLAIMING THAT > > > WE ARE NOT REAL PERSONS, AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS > > INVENTED US. > > > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > > > > > D catt; --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > > Muehlbach > > > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL > > FABRICATED > > > > CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing this, I > > > will > > > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can > start > > > by > > > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" > so- > > > > called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the > theatrical > > > in > > > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS NOT > > > EVEN > > > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what is > > needed > > > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a > > > spiritual > > > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is > > doing > > > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even > possible. > > > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. > There > > > is > > > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > > > > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but > maybe > > > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my > > > imagination. > > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I > am > > > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out > for > > > you > > > > people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of > > > theosophy, > > > > Wry > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > wrote: > > > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie > > > about > > > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted on > this > > > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting here > > since > > > > > August of this year. > > > > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian > and > > > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum > > > [WET?] > > > > it > > > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm Bill's > > > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > > > > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from > > > today > > > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the > next > > > > week > > > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > > > > > Daniel From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 23 09:31:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 17:31:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 61798 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 17:31:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 17:31:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 17:31:32 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-08-42.look.ca ([216.154.46.137] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Fe7t-0001IF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:31:29 -0500 Message-ID: <3DDFBBC8.EA349C42@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:32:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Theism/Mahayana Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Robert wrote: <> In essence, Robert, as I see it, you seem to talking about refining one's dualistic world/worldview, and your choice of words and general approach on this list tends to suggest, to me, that such refining is something that even Mahayana Buddhists ought to be engaging more in. It's as if you're saying that those following the esoteric tradition of the such as the Mahayana Buddhists ought to concentrate more on refinning dualistics, instead, as if the dualistic world were "real enough," somehow, in some refined sense, and as if thoughts about transcending dualistic worldviews were misleading, or negative. There seems to be a mainstream suspicion to the effect that the Mahayanic references to such as "emptiness," "the undescribable," etc., are tantamount to some kind of fundamental negation. And there may be relevance in that view in the sense that, from a dualistic perspective (ie, "dualistic" as per the mainstream sense by which our worldview and reality is maintained by apparent/real basic opposites), so, from a mainstream/dualistic perspective your arguments, Robert, make a lot of sense to a lot of people (obviously enough?). No wonder there are so many mainstream religions out there? However, in Mahayana Buddhism duality is regarded as mayavic, (in p/Principle), in that there are those who see the inherent limitations/simplicity (or mayavicity) of dualistics. Of course, on the other hand, Mahayana Buddhism (and there seem to be Mahayanic, or esoteric, versions of Theosophy, as well?), seems to have all along been confusing and "unrealistic" to mainstreamers who can't seem to quite see much in the way of maya (or fundamental illusiveness) in their mainstream (dualistic/exoteric) worldview. My understanding is that there are reports that the so-called emptiness referred to in Mahayana Buddhism might also be referred to as a "plenum/void," apparently on the grounds that the "reality" experienced in that state of "Beingness" is so fundamentally different from dualistics, or from mainstream worldviews, that there are no direct enough, understandable enough, dualistic words with which to describe such "Beingness." As a result, (obviously enough?), there is a mainstream preference, on this planet at this time, for all kinds of mainstreaming. Isn't all that obvious enough? Or did I overlook something, again? Speculatively, Mauri PS I hope I didn't say anything that the Mahayana Buddhists might object to too much. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 09:32:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 17:32:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 62886 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 17:32:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 17:32:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:32:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2116 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.157.118.191 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" wrote: > This is simply begging the question; i.e., assuming what you have not > yet established. Not really. It is a scientific fact, for example, that the color red does not exist in nature, but only in our consciousness. Red is therefore said not to be real but ideal, ideal being a word used in philosophy to represent things of the mind, such as ideas. Red is therefore said to be phenomenal (meaning it exists in the mind) but not noumenal (meaning it exists objectively to ourselves.) So if someone said he read a Krishna comic book and then thought he shook hands with Krishna, his experience might be of great value, but it would not be an experience of ultimate reality. > At least since the time of Shankara (and his Western counterparts), > there has been a popular tendency in esoteric circles to > think, "Well, OF COURSE the ultimate reality must be featureless and > undescribable!" But there is no logic here, unless it's the logic of > suicidal negation; Not true. See the above. The concept of voidness existed long before Sankara was born. There is an inferior technique recommended by Vedantins such as Sivananda and Theravadin priests such as Buddhaghosa in which one cultivates a disgust for the world. However, this merely creates conflict in the mind and does not liberate one from attachment. > Similarly, the simple negation of > experience is the poor man's view of ultimate reality I don't think so, given what "the simple negation of experience" is an euphemism for in this sentence. If you want to say that there are a lot of self styled gure out there who don't know what they are talking about and practices which are ancient and totally wrongheaded, then we agree. > contradicted by the reports of mystics, especially in the Vaishnava > tradition, of features or "phenomena" of a different order, to be Sometime when you get a chance, could you briefly tell us which autobiogaphies you sre referring to, and why you think phenomenal experience is actually ultimate reality? From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 09:36:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 17:36:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 80593 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 17:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 17:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 17:36:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 17:36:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:36:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Brian/Brigitte Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1097 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Arcs Inquisitor, Daniel C. Caldwell the hat trick artist/ TS watchdog : Cosimo is obviously a much more intelligent person then, and one that doesn't lie. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Brian/Brigitte, you wrote: > > "Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or > Church of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take > over and offer your own product whatever it is." > > "Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group where you > belong." > > Brian, I just got out of bed this morning and thought I would read > the latest postings on Theos-Talk when I ran across your above post. > > This is the funniest post I have ever read on any of the Internet > forums. Chuck, definitely has competition! [OBTW, where is Chuck? > I guess hanging out on Theos-L.] > > My side is hurting from laughing so much. :) > > Thanks Brian/Brigitte for the entertainment you've provided on this > forum. ;) > > Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 09:50:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 43246 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:50:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Goswami: Schueler's comments and other related issues Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 866 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Goswami, When you are feeling better I hope you will give your comments on what Jerry Schueler has written at: Jerry Schueler on Goswami's "Three God-Realizations" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9060 Also any comments you have on the following postings will be appreciated: Theism compared to A-Theism and Pan-theism in the Mahatma Letters http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8773 Goswami versus Koot Hoomi?? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8967 Personal experiences of a Supreme Personality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9072 Images of the Supreme ---- Thought Forms??? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9075 Hopefully your posts already have provoked some readers to think more deeply on these issues. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 10:05:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 95728 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 18:05:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:05:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6538 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell H.P. Blavatsky writes that the first fundamental proposition of the Secret Doctrine is: ------------------------------------------------- An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable PRINCIPLE on which all speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conception and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought -- in the words of Mandukya, "unthinkable and unspeakable." To render these ideas clearer to the general reader, let him set out with the postulate that there is one absolute Reality which antecedes all manifested, conditioned, being. This Infinite and Eternal Cause -- dimly formulated in the "Unconscious" and "Unknowable" of current European philosophy -- is the rootless root of "all that was, is, or ever shall be." It is of course devoid of all attributes and is essentially without any relation to manifested, finite Being. It is "Be-ness" rather than Being (in Sanskrit, Sat), and is beyond all thought or speculation. This "Be-ness" is symbolised in the Secret Doctrine under two aspects. On the one hand, absolute abstract Space, representing bare subjectivity, the one thing which no human mind can either exclude from any conception, or conceive of by itself. On the other, absolute Abstract Motion representing Unconditioned Consciousness. Even our Western thinkers have shown that Consciousness is inconceivable to us apart from change, and motion best symbolises change, its essential characteristic. This latter aspect of the one Reality, is also symbolised by the term "The Great Breath," a symbol sufficiently graphic to need no further elucidation. Thus, then, the first fundamental axiom of the Secret Doctrine is this metaphysical ONE ABSOLUTE -- BE-NESS -- symbolised by finite intelligence as the theological Trinity. It may, however, assist the student if a few further explanations are given here. Herbert Spencer has of late so far modified his Agnosticism, as to assert that the nature of the "First Cause,"* which the Occultist more logically derives from the "Causeless Cause," the "Eternal," and the "Unknowable," may be essentially the same as that of the Consciousness which wells up within us: in short, that the impersonal reality pervading the Kosmos is the pure noumenon of thought. This advance on his part brings him very near to the esoteric and Vedantin tenet. Parabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditioned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. But once that we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Matter, Subject and Object. Spirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded, not as independent realities, but as the two facets or aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether subjective or objective. Considering this metaphysical triad as the Root from which proceeds all manifestation, the great Breath assumes the character of precosmic Ideation. It is the fons et origo of force and of all individual consciousness, and supplies the guiding intelligence in the vast scheme of cosmic Evolution. On the other hand, precosmic root-substance (Mulaprakriti) is that aspect of the Absolute which underlies all the objective planes of Nature. Just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all individual consciousness, so pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matter in the various grades of its differentiation. Hence it will be apparent that the contrast of these two aspects of the Absolute is essential to the existence of the "Manifested Universe." Apart from Cosmic Substance, Cosmic Ideation could not manifest as individual consciousness, since it is only through a vehicle of matter that consciousness wells up as "I am I," a physical basis being necessary to focus a ray of the Universal Mind at a certain stage of complexity. Again, apart from Cosmic Ideation, Cosmic Substance would remain an empty abstraction, and no emergence of consciousness could ensue. The "Manifested Universe," therefore, is pervaded by duality, which is, as it were, the very essence of its EX-istence as "manifestation." But just as the opposite poles of subject and object, spirit and matter, are but aspects of the One Unity in which they are synthesized, so, in the manifested Universe, there is "that" which links spirit to matter, subject to object. This something, at present unknown to Western speculation, is called by the occultists Fohat. It is the "bridge" by which the "Ideas" existing in the "Divine Thought" are impressed on Cosmic substance as the "laws of Nature." Fohat is thus the dynamic energy of Cosmic Ideation; or, regarded from the other side, it is the intelligent medium, the guiding power of all manifestation, the "Thought Divine" transmitted and made manifest through the Dhyan Chohans,* the Architects of the visible World. Thus from Spirit, or Cosmic Ideation, comes our consciousness; from Cosmic Substance the several vehicles in which that consciousness is individualised and attains to self -- or reflective -- consciousness; while Fohat, in its various manifestations, is the mysterious link between Mind and Matter, the animating principle electrifying every atom into life. The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. (1.) The ABSOLUTE; the Parabrahm of the Vedantins or the one Reality, SAT, which is, as Hegel says, both Absolute Being and Non-Being. (2.) The first manifestation, the impersonal, and, in philosophy, unmanifested Logos, the precursor of the "manifested." This is the "First Cause," the "Unconscious" of European Pantheists. (3.) Spirit-matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe," the Purusha and Prakriti, or the second Logos. (4.) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World- Soul; the Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI. The ONE REALITY; its dual aspects in the conditioned Universe. ------------------------------------------------- THE SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. 1, Pages 14-16. The footnotes to the above text have been deleted. Easily access THE SECRET DOCTRINE at: http://secretdoctrine.net Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 23 10:06:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:06:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 60727 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:06:50 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 958315EE67B for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:06:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00e501c2931a$54e4aaa0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:01:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Well, well... This is my view Brian: - Love can only be got through Love. Friendship can only be got through Friendship. But what can one do - when one won't label one self as a SCHOLAR >:-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8826 Attraction of Celebrities A man who is being delivered from the danger of a fierce lion does not object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from celebrities ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:25 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. > Wry: honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. > > Brian: This is noncence you made a list of false claims. > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > I don't know if this information will help you out Paul, but I am > > from the honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. Wry > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > wrote: > > > Wry" wrote: > > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > > Muehlbach ... > > > > > > Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or > > Church > > > of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take > over > > > and offer your own product whatever it is. > > > > > > Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group where > > you > > > belong. > > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > > > > wrote: > > > > TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, > > > > > > > > FOR THOSE WHO HAVE STILL NOT READ THE POSTS > REGARDING > > > BHAKTI ANANDA > > > > GOSWAMI'S IDENTITY AND CREDENTIALS. PLEASE SEE THE > WORLD > > > VAISHNAVA > > > > ASSOCIATION (WVA) HOME PAGE NAMING ME TO HEAD THEIR > > > INTERFAITH > > > > COMMITTEE. PLEASE ALSO READ THE 1994 ORBIS BOOKS > > > > PUBLICATION "EMBRACING EARTH : CATHOLIC APPROACHES TO > > > THEOLOGY" ISBN > > > > # 0-88344-966-8, EDITED BY PROF. JOHN E. CARROLL AND > ALBERT J. > > > LA > > > > CHANCE. ORBIS BOOKS IS THE PUBLISHING HOUSE OF > MARYKNOLL, > > > THE > > > > CATHOLIC FOREIGN MISSIONARY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. THEIR > > > ADDRESS IS P O > > > > BOX 308, MARYKNOLL, NY, 10545-0308, USA. > > > > > > > > I, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AKA BROTHER DAVID SHERMAN, > WAS > > > INVITED BY > > > > THE EDITORS TO CONTRIBUTE A CHAPTER TO THIS BOOK ON > THE > > > ROLE OF > > > > ASCETICISM IN THE JUDEO-CATHOLIC TRADITION, AND THE > > > RELEVANCE OF > > > > ABSTINENCE AND ASCETICISM AND OTHER TRADITIONAL > CATHOLIC > > > AND GANDHIAN > > > > VAISHNAVA PRACTICES TO ECOLOGY TODAY. THE BOOK > IDENTIFIES > > > ME AS A > > > > SANNYASI BY MY ORDAINED NAME BELOW, AND ALSO BY MY > > > CHRISTIAN NAME. > > > > > > > > MY CHAPTER IS TITLED "CHOOSE LIFE". THE BOOK HAS > RECEIVED > > > PRAISE > > > > FROM CATHOLIC LEADERS AND HAS BEEN USED IN PARISH > > > COURSES, AS WELL AS > > > > DISTRIBUTED BY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. > > > > > > > > PLEASE STOP INSULTING MYSELF, MY DAUGHTER AND OTHERS > BY > > > CLAIMING THAT > > > > WE ARE NOT REAL PERSONS, AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS > > > INVENTED US. > > > > > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > > > > > > > D catt; --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > > > Muehlbach > > > > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL > > > FABRICATED > > > > > CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing > this, I > > > > will > > > > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can > > start > > > > by > > > > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving you "her" > > so- > > > > > called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the > > theatrical > > > > in > > > > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is being > > > > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against my > > > > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS > NOT > > > > EVEN > > > > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what > is > > > needed > > > > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a > > > > spiritual > > > > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who is > > > doing > > > > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even > > possible. > > > > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of doing. > > There > > > > is > > > > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > > > > > > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, but > > maybe > > > > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my > > > > imagination. > > > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not respond. I > > am > > > > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this out > > for > > > > you > > > > > people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of > > > > theosophy, > > > > > Wry > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by Adelasie > > > > about > > > > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted > on > > this > > > > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting > here > > > since > > > > > > August of this year. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that Brian > > and > > > > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another forum > > > > [WET?] > > > > > it > > > > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm > Bill's > > > > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week from > > > > today > > > > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in the > > next > > > > > week > > > > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 10:23:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:23:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 90001 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:23:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:23:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:23:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 18:23:53 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:23:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: THE COSMIC WOMB by Arthur W. Osborn Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 840 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell THE COSMIC WOMB by Arthur W. Osborn contains much relevant material on the subject of "God". Here are the titles of some of the relevant chapters in Mr. Osborn's book: Chapter 1: The Mind, Help or Hindrance? Chapter 5: Being and Becoming Chapter 6: What is Ultimate Reality? Chapter 7: About the Word "God" Chapter 8: God and "Holy" Books Chapter 9: The Locatin of God Chapter 10: God and Evil Chapter 11: The One and the Many Chapter 12: The Within and the Without Chapter 13: The Essential Nature of the Unitive Experience Chapter 14: The Objective Reference in Mysticism Chapter 22: More About Illusion Chapter 24: The Illusiveness of Divinity This book can be purchased used at Amazon.com. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0835600017/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 10:36:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 47073 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:36:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Location of God" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 976 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, Arthur W. Osborn comments: ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same sense that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be pantheism." "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But this poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of universality with the objective implication of being in existence. As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, whereas existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. 57 caps added. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 10:42:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:42:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 56157 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:42:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:42:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:41:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 18:41:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:41:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Woof!! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 219 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In response to Brian's/Brigitte's comment about: "Arcs Inquisitor, Daniel C. Caldwell the hat trick artist/ TS watchdog" all I can say can be summarized in one word used by my favorite dog Muffin: "Woof!!" Daniel From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Nov 23 10:50:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:50:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 9181 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:50:00 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUMzy5KHd2m4/fh6xA0omCfJg=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HJBSSQNZ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:49:33 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:39:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: <20021123.133936.-827681.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,6-7,12-13,22,24-25,28-31,35-36,39-40,42-43,51-52,54-55,57-62,70-71,78-79,83-84,90-91,99-100,103-106 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 All this talk of the "Blood of Israel" being found in Britain and other places is certainly nothing new. The concept is a major component of Mormonism and also of the Armstrong Worldwide Church of God. No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. But while genealogy is important in the Mormon faith it has little to do with Theosophical Rounds and Races. Yet both arrive at the same point. Years ago, before I had ever heard of Theosophy, HPB or the phrase "universal brotherhood" I was preaching from a Mormon pulpit the "universality of the brotherhood of man" based on genealogy. Yes, those were my exact words. Then when I found Theosophy i had to reflect to myself, " HPB sure put it in a more concise way didn't she?" I can only speak for Europeans, but the basic principles hold everywhere. We all have two parents, four grandparents, eight great grandparents and so on as be go back. If we trace our lines back to the time of Charlemagne, we find that we have more progenitors then the population at that time. Nearly everyone of European descent can somehow tie into royal lines nad in so doing go back to Charlemagne. That Frankish line is key to the belief (true or nay) that Israeli blood flows in the royal houses of Europe. The Franks are rumored to come from the Scythians who supposedly are the Lost tribe of Ephraim. By tracing through certain Greek lines, one comes on the House of David lineage. But why single out Bonnie Prince Charlie? He is only where he is because of the rules of primogenitor but carries the same genes as most of us. He has a title, we don't. So what is the religious significance of this? Abraham was promiced (Gen 12:2-3) "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing; and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curseth thee: AND IN THEE SHALL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSES." Now the balance of the OT follows this blessing first to Issac, then to Jacob(Israel) and to then to Judah (the first Jew). The doctrine of the chosen people was born. Yet Christianity reinterpreted all this. Most Christains believe that they are the ADOPTED children of Abraham, modern Israel as it were. But Mormons and Armstrongites take it further, to them the pure blood of Israel must flow through the veins of all believers. Mormons taught for years that they were "gathering" the blood of Israel from among the nations. After a person converts to Mormonism, they recieve a "patriarchal blessing" which declares their lineage. The owding of mine is about as common as any: "Brother Kolts thou has come upon the earth in this day through the loins of Ephraim, through the household of the faithful and thou art entilted to all of his blessings..." Now Mormons teach that there are three important items passed on fron generation to generation. 1-The office of Patriarch which concerns the giving of blessings and also the inheritence of material things including land. 2-The Sceptre or right to kingship 3-The Priesthood or power to act in the name of god Mormons teach that Adam had all three and were passed from father to sone down to Noah and then to Abraham. Abraham gave them to Isaac who in turm gave them to Jacob (Israel). But then all hell breaks loose. Jacon had twelve sons. The eldest Reuben, should have recieved all three but did evel in the sight of the Lord as lost it all. he was the eldest son of Leah, Jacobs first wife. the Patriarcate then passed to Joseph, eldest son of Jacob's second wife Rachel. The Sceptre went to Judah and in Moses time, the Priesthood went to tribe of Levi. Joseph gave the Patriarcate to his eldest Ephraim but that tribe was "lost" along with nine others during the Assyrian conquest of the northern Kingdom of Israel. It is this tribe that is belived to have settled in the Black Sea area ahd to have cime to Europe during the invasion of the Franks and ends up in Britain with the Norman conquest. Mormons take this one step further and maintain that the family of Joseph Smith were the ligitimate heirs of the patriarcate. >From the line of Judah came King David, Solomon and all the other kings of Judah. Christains believe that Jesus was the legitimate King. From this same bloodline it is taught that the modern monarchs of Britain are decended. The priesthood passed for generation through the Levites. Chritains maintain that it was "lost" during the Greek takeover and that later High Priests of Israel were illegitimate. Mormons teach that the man who should have been hgh priest at the time Jesus should have been king was John the Baptist. Mormons futher believe that this priesthood was later give to Joseph Smith through divine intervention. BUT! Despite all this exclusivity, Mormons then teach that all three of the above are now available to all the world! Each man who becomes a mormon is ordained to the priesthood and all who are "worthy" obtain the office of Elder while still others are ordained to the presiding office of High Priest. Each Elder then becomes a patriarch to his own family. Then, in the temple, one is able to become a "prophet, priest and king" which leads to ultimate "godhood" Whew! I'm glad I'm out of that rat race. That most likely more than most of you ever wanted to know, but it does shed some light on this "Blood of Israel" stuff at least from one perspective Oh, BTW, It's good to here from Paul again. Larry Kolts ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From robertnewman@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 10:52:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: robertnewman@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 21758 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1566 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "rnewman2003" X-Originating-IP: 66.214.137.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=12179401 X-Yahoo-Profile: rnewman2003 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: >>> Sometime when you get a chance, could you briefly tell us which autobiogaphies you sre referring to, and why you think phenomenal experience is actually ultimate reality? The best starting place I know of is the book, Hindu Encounter with Modernity, by Shukavak N. Dasa. This book is actually a biography, but is based on autobiographical as well as objective material. It covers the life and theology of Kedarnatha Dutta, a Bengali Vaishnava who lived about 100 years ago. Besides being fascinating as a biography, it's the best introduction to Vaishnava theology I have ever seen. As to why I think phenomenal experience is actually ultimate reality, perhaps that book will explain better than I can. But in a nutshell, those who (I believe) have actually "been there" have said that beyond the familiar phenomena of this world, and the several planes of more subtle existence and phenomena described in numerous esoteric traditions, including Theosophy, there is a plane of absolute consciousness without phenomena or identity, which is a resting (actually, dissolving) place for some. Beyond even that, there is another realm of existence characterized by phenomena of a different order. If, some day, I come across a description by a purported eyewitness of something still further elevated, I will assess the credibility of the reporter as best I can, and may revise my map of reality again. But for now, this is where my search for truth has led me. Robert From dhyana@web.de Sat Nov 23 10:58:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 18:58:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 18227 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 18:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 18:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 18:58:37 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gANIwWH13010 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:58:32 +0100 Received: from captainak7j46l (cppp-236.blinx.de [62.96.222.236]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gANIwUC12976 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:58:30 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c29322$56590180$ecde603e@captainak7j46l> To: References: <3DD90996.20E9626E@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and war. Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:09:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.236 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >First thing is to throw out the philosophy of the Frankfurt School, >notably Fromm, Reich, and Marcuse. Bart, this is really the best sentence you ever wrote over the years! The only problem is that this old 68'ers with their marching through the institutions are now the leading oligarchy. Frank From wry1111@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 11:06:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 19:06:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 1972 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 19:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 19:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 19:06:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 19:06:49 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:06:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Location of God" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1454 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Wry" X-Originating-IP: 63.11.211.48 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi "Daniel." Here is a story for you to ponder while on vacation: a monk at a monestary on the edge of the desert once asked the abbot of neighboring monestary, who was a wise man, an esoteric question about the nature of God. The abbot answered: "Go to your cell. It will give you the answer." You really are sort of a fascinating person. Too bad I'm not a woman. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same sense > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > pantheism." > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But this > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, whereas > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > 57 caps added. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 23 11:10:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 19:10:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 12471 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 19:10:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 19:10:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 19:10:31 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6ED005EE3D0 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:10:30 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <011601c29323$3a290360$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World "Location of God" Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:05:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, A view: A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" on the views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. Here it is again --- changed slightly: Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the truth about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that mirror, God results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or individualised self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and to secure. When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is the result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as its reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms and combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of the many is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of the One; by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into many. But the One is ever One. Love is NOT negative. Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. Everything has come from God. There is nothing except God. Nature is God's manifestation. The cosmos is the embodiment of God. There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. God is the immanent power in everything. God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is inter-dependent and inseparable. The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its understanding. The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, established. All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - is a manifestation of the ATMA. In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. What you see is ATMA. What makes you forget is also ATMA ! The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of God. The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our preferences and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue picture of BRAHMAN. It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our reasoning process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, and on man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the nature of the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom of Maya. Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya produces Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the Vidya that araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is destroyed through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are destroyed when the fire ends ! Love is our nature. Love is all. Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. Love alone makes lige meaningful. Live in Love. When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary are spouriuos and missing the mark. Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. Develop love by sharing it. Love is the basis for Self-discovery. The end of knoeledge is Love. Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the heart is true love. We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. Love lead you quickly to the Goal. Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. Love wins against all evils. Love is patient when needed. Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. Love is NOT negative. from M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same sense > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > pantheism." > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But this > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, whereas > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > 57 caps added. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From wry1111@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 11:27:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 19:27:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 39920 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 19:27:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 19:27:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 19:27:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 19:27:22 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:27:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: "Location of God" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <011601c29323$3a290360$ce92a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6545 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Wry" X-Originating-IP: 63.11.211.48 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk till death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > A view: > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" on the > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the truth > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that mirror, God > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or individualised > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and to secure. > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is the > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as its > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms and > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of the many > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of the One; > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into many. > But the One is ever One. > > > Love is NOT negative. > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > Everything has come from God. > There is nothing except God. > Nature is God's manifestation. > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > God is the immanent power in everything. > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is > inter-dependent and inseparable. > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its > understanding. > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, established. > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - is a > manifestation of the ATMA. > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > What you see is ATMA. > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of God. > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our preferences > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue picture of > BRAHMAN. > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our reasoning > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, and on > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the nature of > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom of Maya. > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya produces > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the Vidya that > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is destroyed > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > Love is our nature. > Love is all. > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > Live in Love. > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary are > spouriuos and missing the mark. > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > Develop love by sharing it. > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > The end of knoeledge is Love. > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the heart is > true love. > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > Love wins against all evils. > Love is patient when needed. > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > Love is NOT negative. > > > from > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same sense > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > > pantheism." > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But this > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, whereas > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > > 57 caps added. > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 11:42:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 19:42:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 33286 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 19:42:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 19:42:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 19:42:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 19:42:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:42:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 11099 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Koot Hoomi wrote to A.P. Sinnett: "A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth=20 and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; 'No-being' and a=20 mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the=20 Vedantic primitive Acosmism." That is: DUALITY versus NON-DUALITY: "A Being" versus "No-being" Compare the above with the following excerpts from the Encyclop=E6dia Britannica. CAPS have been added to emphasize certain words. ----------------------------------------- VAISHNAVISM also called Vishnuism, or Visnuism . . . [is] worship of=20 the god Vishnu and of his incarnations, principally as Rama and as=20 Krishna. It is one of the major forms of modern Hinduism=97with Saivism and Shaktism (Saktism).=20 A major characteristic of Vaishnavism is the strong part played by=20 bhakti, or religious devotion. The ultimate goal of the devotee is to=20 escape from the cycle of birth and death so as to enjoy the presence=20 of Vishnu. This cannot be achieved without the grace of God. . . . The philosophical schools of Vaishnavism differ in their=20 interpretation of THE RELATIONSHIP between individual souls and God.=20 The doctrines of the most important schools are:=20 (1) visist advaita ("qualified monism"), associated with the name of Ramanuja (11th century) and continued by the Srivais nava=20 sect, prominent in South India;=20 (2) dvaita ("dualism"), the principal exponent of which was Madhva (13th century), who taught that although the soul is dependent=20 on God it is NOT an extension of God, that the soul and God are=20 SEPARATE entities;=20 (3) dvaitadvaita ("dualistic monism"), taught by Nimbarka. . . (4) suddhadvaita ("pure monism") of Vallabha. . . (5) acintya-bhedabheda ("inconceivable duality and nonduality"), the doctrine of Caitanya. . .=20 --------------------------------------------------- DVAITA . . . (Sanskrit: "Dualism"), [dualism, or belief in a BASIC DIFFERENCE in kind between God and individual souls] [is] an=20 important school in the orthodox Hindu philosophical system of=20 Vedanta. Its founder was Madhva. . . .=20 Already during his lifetime, Madhva was regarded by his followers as=20 an incarnation of the wind god Vayu, who had been sent to earth by=20 the lord Vishnu to save the good, after the powers of evil had sent=20 the philosopher Sankara, an important proponent of the Advaita=20 ("Nondualist") school.=20 In his expositions, Madhva shows the influence of the Nyaya=20 philosophic school. He maintains that Vishnu is the supreme God, thus=20 identifying the Brahman of the Upanisads with A PERSONAL God, as=20 Ramanuja (c. 1050=961137) had done before him. There are in Madhva's system THREE ETERNAL, ontological orders: that of God, that=20 of soul, and that of inanimate nature. The existence of God is=20 demonstrable by logical proof, though only scripture teaches his=20 nature. He is the epitome of all perfections and possesses a=20 nonmaterial body, which consists of saccidananda (being, spirit, and=20 bliss). God is the efficient cause of the universe, but Madhva denies=20 that he is the material cause, for God cannot have created the world=20 by splitting himself nor in any other way, since that militates=20 against the doctrine that God is unalterable; in addition, it is=20 blasphemous to accept that a perfect God changes himself into an=20 imperfect world. . . . Madhva set out to refute the nondualistic Advaita philosophy of=20 Sankara (d. c. AD 750), who believed the INDIVIDUAL self to be a=20 phenomenon and the absolute spirit (Brahman) the ONLY reality. Thus,=20 Madhva rejected the venerable Hindu theory of maya ("illusion"), which taught that only spirituality is eternal and the material world is illusory and deceptive. Madhva maintained=20 that the simple fact that things are transient and everchanging does=20 not mean they are not real. . . . Madhva . . . belonged to the tradition of Vaisnava religious faith=20 and showed a great polemical spirit in refuting Sankara's philosophy=20 and in converting people to his own fold. . . . He glorified=20 DIFFFERENCE. Five types of differences are central to Madhva's=20 system: DIFFERENCE between soul and God, between soul and soul,=20 between soul and matter, between God and matter, and that between=20 matter and matter. Brahman is the fullness of qualities, and by his=20 own intrinsic nature, Brahman produces the world. The individual,=20 otherwise free, is dependent only upon God. The Advaita concepts of=20 falsity and indescribability of the world were severely criticized=20 and rejected.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------- ADVAITA (Sanskrit: "Nondualism," or "Monism"), [is] most influential of the schools of Vedanta, an orthodox philosophy of=20 India. While its followers find its main tenets already fully=20 expressed in the Upanisads and systematized by the Vedanta-sutras, it=20 has its historical beginning with the 7th-century thinker=20 Gaudapada. . . Gaudapada builds further on the Mahayana Buddhist=20 philosophy of Sunyava-da ("Emptiness"). He argues that there is NO DUALITY; the mind, awake or dreaming, moves through maya ("illusion"); and only nonduality (advaita) is the final truth. This truth is concealed by the ignorance of illusion. There is=20 no becoming, either of a thing by itself or of a thing out of some=20 other thing. THERE IS ULTIMATELY NO INDIVIDUAL SELF OR SOUL (jiva),=20 ONLY THE ATMAN (all-soul), in which individuals may be temporarily=20 delineated just as the space in a jar delineates a part of main=20 space: when the jar is broken, the individual space becomes once more=20 part of the main space.=20 The medieval Indian philosopher Sankara, or Sankaracarya (Master=20 Sankara, c. 700=96750), builds further on Gaudapada's foundation, . . . Sankara in his philosophy does not start from the empirical world=20 with logical analysis but, rather, directly from the absolute=20 (Brahman). If interpreted correctly, he argues, the Upanisads teach=20 the nature of Brahman. In making this argument, he develops a=20 complete epistemology to account for the human error in taking the=20 phenomenal world for real. Fundamental for Sankara is the tenet that=20 the Brahman is real and the world is unreal. Any change, duality, or=20 plurality is an illusion. The self is NOTHING BUT Brahman. Insight=20 into this identity results in spiritual release. Brahman is outside=20 time, space, and causality, which are simply forms of empirical=20 experience. NO DISTINCTIN in Brahman or from Brahman is possible.=20 Sankara points to scriptural texts, either stating identity ("Thou art that") or denying difference ("There is no duality here"), as declaring the true meaning of a Brahman without qualities (nirguna ). Other texts that ascribe qualities (saguna) to=20 Brahman refer not to the true nature of Brahman but to its=20 personality as God(Isvara). . . .=20 ---------------------------------------------------- PANTHEISM in Hinduism The gods of the Vedas, the ancient scriptures of India (c.1200 BC),=20 represented for the most part natural forces. Exceptions were the=20 gods Prajapati (Lord of Creatures) and Purusa (Supreme Being or Soul=20 of the Universe), whose competition for influence provided, in its=20 outcome, a possible explanation of how the Indian tradition came to=20 be one of pantheism rather than of Classical Theism. By the 10th book=20 of the Rigveda, Prajapati had become a lordly, monotheistic figure, a=20 creator deity transcending the world; and in the later period of the=20 sacred writings of the Brahmanas (c. 7th century BC), prose=20 commentaries on the Vedas, he was moving into a central position. The=20 rising influence of this Theism was later eclipsed by Purusa, who was=20 also represented in Rigveda X. In a creation myth Purusa was=20 sacrificed by the gods in order to supply (from his body) the pieces=20 from which all the things of the world arise. From this standpoint=20 the ground of all things lies in a Cosmic Self, and all of life=20 participates in that of Purusa. The Vedic hymn to Purusa may be=20 regarded as the starting point of Indian pantheism.=20 In the Upanisads (c. 1000=96500 BC), the most important of the ancient scriptures of India, the later writings contain philosophic=20 speculations concerning the relation between the individual and the=20 divine. In the earlier Upanisads, the absolute, impersonal, eternal=20 properties of the divine had been stressed; in the later Upanisads,=20 on the other hand, and in the Bhagavadgita , the personal, loving,=20 immanentistic properties became dominant. In both cases the divine=20 was held to be IDENTICAL with the inner self of each man. At times=20 these opposites were implicitly held to be in fact identical=97the view earlier called identity of opposites pantheism. At other times=20 the two sets of qualities were related, one to the unmanifest=20 absolute Brahman, or supreme reality (sustaining the universe), and=20 the other to the manifest Brahman bearing qualities (and containing=20 the universe). Thus Brahman can be regarded as exclusive of the world=20 and inclusive, unchanging and yet the origin of all change. Sometimes=20 the manifest Brahman was regarded as an emanation from the unmanifest=20 Brahman; and then emanationistic pantheism=97the Neoplatonic pantheism of the foregoing typology=97was the result. Sankara, an outstanding nondualistic Vedantist and advocate of a=20 spiritual view of life, began with the Neoplatonic alternative but=20 added a qualification that turned his view into what was later called=20 acosmic pantheism. Distinguishing first between Brahman as being the=20 eternal Absolute and Brahman as a lower principle and declaring the=20 lower Brahman to be a manifestation of the higher, he then made the=20 judgment that all save the higher unqualitied Brahman is the product=20 of ignorance or nescience and exists (apparently only in men's minds)=20 as the phantoms of a dream. Since for Sankara, the world and=20 individuality thus disappear upon enlightenment into the unmanifest=20 Brahman, and in reality only the Absolute without distinctions=20 exists, Sankara has provided an instance of acosmism. --------------------------------------------------- ACOSMISM [is] in philosophy, the view that God is the sole and=20 ultimate reality and that finite objects and events have no=20 INDEPENDENT existence. Acosmism has been equated with pantheism, the=20 belief that everything is God. G.W.F. Hegel coined the word to defend=20 Benedict de Spinoza, who was accused of atheism for rejecting the=20 traditional view of a created world EXISTING OUTSIDE GOD. Hegel=20 argued that Spinoza could not be an atheist because pantheists hold=20 that EVERYTHING is God, whereas atheists exclude God altogether and=20 make a godless world the sole reality. Furthermore, because Spinoza's=20 cosmos is part of God, it is not what it seems to be. He is=20 acosmistic insofar as "noncosmic" seems to deny the cosmos=97a position, however, very alien to Spinoza's thought.=20 Acosmism has also been used to describe the philosophies of Hindu=20 Vedanta, Buddhism, and Arthur Schopenhauer; and Johann Gottlieb=20 Fichte used the term to defend himself against accusations similar to=20 those leveled against Spinoza. =20 From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 12:16:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 20:16:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 69501 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 20:16:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 20:16:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 20:16:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 20:16:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:16:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021123.133936.-827681.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 153 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.246.129.27 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > Oh, BTW, It's good to here from Paul again. You mean it WAS good. He unsubscribed. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 23 12:25:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 20:25:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17853 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 20:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 20:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 20:25:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 20:25:40 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:25:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: My encounter with the staff of Moses Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <188.11643e38.2b10b2c0@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1820 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell My encounter with the staff of Moses In 1956 when I was a seven-year old kid I had my first encounter with the staff of Moses. My sister took me to see the movie "The Ten Commandments." [ http://us.imdb.com/Title?0049833 ]I was not a religious kid at the time. I found the movie interesting but not out of the ordinary until .... the point in the movie where Moses opens the Red Sea using the serpent-staff. At that point I had a remarkable inner experience. When Moses said: "Behold his mighty hand." I experienced an altered state of consciousness or what some might call a peak or mystical experience. My waking consciousness was suddenly altered and I become aware and conscious of a greater reality, a greater consciousness, a greater being of which I was a part but this greater consciousness encompassed the whole universe. At the same time I became aware of a great "force" which welled up in me from the lower regions of my body and went up thru my chest and head and continued upward to vast regions beyond. My consciousness was embued with great bliss and everything appeared in a shining light. It felt to me as though the whole universe was flowing thru my being. How long this state lasted, I do not know. But even at that early age, I knew that the staff of Moses was the means by which one can reach God's mountain and the Promised land. I also perceived that God's burning bush was an immense inner reality. Of course, one can probably guess that my all-time favorite movie is still The Ten Commandments. Every time I watch it, I automatically enter into that greater reality which is represented by God's holy mountain and the burning bush. This encounter awakened by Moses' staff was my only mystical experience until I was in my early teens. Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 23 12:29:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 20:29:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 82187 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 20:29:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 20:29:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 20:29:04 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DCF1F4804F4 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:29:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c2932e$32f6a9c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:23:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Daniel and all of you, Very good and interesting. You wrote in the below on Dwaita: "The Advaita concepts of falsity and indescribability of the world were severely criticized and rejected. " Yes this is kind of a bad thing, according to my view. Sometimes refutatons are a part of a spiritual design, (made by Initiates) to make people develop - NEW thought-patterns, and not to necessarily make them follow that patteren or any other for that matter. My view is, that Adwaita and Dwaita, both, if understood in their original forms, are quite right, and are just differrent views one can have upon God - ParaBrahman. So why make fuss. Yes one is maybe better than the other, so what ? And there has of course been made wrong interpretations of the to schools of thought during time. But the founders were on the right track no doubt there. Friendship can only be got through friendship, else it is fake. ParaBrahman is allright. No problems there. Let the Dwaita people watch that one for some years without any interruption at all, that will do them some good, and then maybe they will all accept, that One-ness is a real deal. Even so a personal God is better than none at all. But an eternal Hell, that is a fake thing, allthough this Planet from time to time looks like one. I am optimistic. To Wry if he reads this (talk, talk...): If Death gets me, then I am just getting myself... I am beyond ordinary kama-manas Death. That is allright. Life and Death is the law of the Game of God - ParaBrahman. But, duty is God - ParaBrahman. -You can't throw me of my charoit that easy. Krishna is helping me you see. >:-) A big laughter rolls down the Himalaya... from M. Sufilight with a disappearing - flash... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:42 PM Subject: Theos-World God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Koot Hoomi wrote to A.P. Sinnett: "A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; 'No-being' and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism." That is: DUALITY versus NON-DUALITY: "A Being" versus "No-being" Compare the above with the following excerpts from the Encyclopćdia Britannica. CAPS have been added to emphasize certain words. ----------------------------------------- VAISHNAVISM also called Vishnuism, or Visnuism . . . [is] worship of the god Vishnu and of his incarnations, principally as Rama and as Krishna. It is one of the major forms of modern Hinduism-with Saivism and Shaktism (Saktism). A major characteristic of Vaishnavism is the strong part played by bhakti, or religious devotion. The ultimate goal of the devotee is to escape from the cycle of birth and death so as to enjoy the presence of Vishnu. This cannot be achieved without the grace of God. . . . The philosophical schools of Vaishnavism differ in their interpretation of THE RELATIONSHIP between individual souls and God. The doctrines of the most important schools are: (1) visist advaita ("qualified monism"), associated with the name of Ramanuja (11th century) and continued by the Srivais nava sect, prominent in South India; (2) dvaita ("dualism"), the principal exponent of which was Madhva (13th century), who taught that although the soul is dependent on God it is NOT an extension of God, that the soul and God are SEPARATE entities; (3) dvaitadvaita ("dualistic monism"), taught by Nimbarka. . . (4) suddhadvaita ("pure monism") of Vallabha. . . (5) acintya-bhedabheda ("inconceivable duality and nonduality"), the doctrine of Caitanya. . . --------------------------------------------------- DVAITA . . . (Sanskrit: "Dualism"), [dualism, or belief in a BASIC DIFFERENCE in kind between God and individual souls] [is] an important school in the orthodox Hindu philosophical system of Vedanta. Its founder was Madhva. . . . Already during his lifetime, Madhva was regarded by his followers as an incarnation of the wind god Vayu, who had been sent to earth by the lord Vishnu to save the good, after the powers of evil had sent the philosopher Sankara, an important proponent of the Advaita ("Nondualist") school. In his expositions, Madhva shows the influence of the Nyaya philosophic school. He maintains that Vishnu is the supreme God, thus identifying the Brahman of the Upanisads with A PERSONAL God, as Ramanuja (c. 1050-1137) had done before him. There are in Madhva's system THREE ETERNAL, ontological orders: that of God, that of soul, and that of inanimate nature. The existence of God is demonstrable by logical proof, though only scripture teaches his nature. He is the epitome of all perfections and possesses a nonmaterial body, which consists of saccidananda (being, spirit, and bliss). God is the efficient cause of the universe, but Madhva denies that he is the material cause, for God cannot have created the world by splitting himself nor in any other way, since that militates against the doctrine that God is unalterable; in addition, it is blasphemous to accept that a perfect God changes himself into an imperfect world. . . . Madhva set out to refute the nondualistic Advaita philosophy of Sankara (d. c. AD 750), who believed the INDIVIDUAL self to be a phenomenon and the absolute spirit (Brahman) the ONLY reality. Thus, Madhva rejected the venerable Hindu theory of maya ("illusion"), which taught that only spirituality is eternal and the material world is illusory and deceptive. Madhva maintained that the simple fact that things are transient and everchanging does not mean they are not real. . . . Madhva . . . belonged to the tradition of Vaisnava religious faith and showed a great polemical spirit in refuting Sankara's philosophy and in converting people to his own fold. . . . He glorified DIFFFERENCE. Five types of differences are central to Madhva's system: DIFFERENCE between soul and God, between soul and soul, between soul and matter, between God and matter, and that between matter and matter. Brahman is the fullness of qualities, and by his own intrinsic nature, Brahman produces the world. The individual, otherwise free, is dependent only upon God. The Advaita concepts of falsity and indescribability of the world were severely criticized and rejected. -------------------------------------------------------------- ADVAITA (Sanskrit: "Nondualism," or "Monism"), [is] most influential of the schools of Vedanta, an orthodox philosophy of India. While its followers find its main tenets already fully expressed in the Upanisads and systematized by the Vedanta-sutras, it has its historical beginning with the 7th-century thinker Gaudapada. . . Gaudapada builds further on the Mahayana Buddhist philosophy of Sunyava-da ("Emptiness"). He argues that there is NO DUALITY; the mind, awake or dreaming, moves through maya ("illusion"); and only nonduality (advaita) is the final truth. This truth is concealed by the ignorance of illusion. There is no becoming, either of a thing by itself or of a thing out of some other thing. THERE IS ULTIMATELY NO INDIVIDUAL SELF OR SOUL (jiva), ONLY THE ATMAN (all-soul), in which individuals may be temporarily delineated just as the space in a jar delineates a part of main space: when the jar is broken, the individual space becomes once more part of the main space. The medieval Indian philosopher Sankara, or Sankaracarya (Master Sankara, c. 700-750), builds further on Gaudapada's foundation, . . . Sankara in his philosophy does not start from the empirical world with logical analysis but, rather, directly from the absolute (Brahman). If interpreted correctly, he argues, the Upanisads teach the nature of Brahman. In making this argument, he develops a complete epistemology to account for the human error in taking the phenomenal world for real. Fundamental for Sankara is the tenet that the Brahman is real and the world is unreal. Any change, duality, or plurality is an illusion. The self is NOTHING BUT Brahman. Insight into this identity results in spiritual release. Brahman is outside time, space, and causality, which are simply forms of empirical experience. NO DISTINCTIN in Brahman or from Brahman is possible. Sankara points to scriptural texts, either stating identity ("Thou art that") or denying difference ("There is no duality here"), as declaring the true meaning of a Brahman without qualities (nirguna ). Other texts that ascribe qualities (saguna) to Brahman refer not to the true nature of Brahman but to its personality as God(Isvara). . . . ---------------------------------------------------- PANTHEISM in Hinduism The gods of the Vedas, the ancient scriptures of India (c.1200 BC), represented for the most part natural forces. Exceptions were the gods Prajapati (Lord of Creatures) and Purusa (Supreme Being or Soul of the Universe), whose competition for influence provided, in its outcome, a possible explanation of how the Indian tradition came to be one of pantheism rather than of Classical Theism. By the 10th book of the Rigveda, Prajapati had become a lordly, monotheistic figure, a creator deity transcending the world; and in the later period of the sacred writings of the Brahmanas (c. 7th century BC), prose commentaries on the Vedas, he was moving into a central position. The rising influence of this Theism was later eclipsed by Purusa, who was also represented in Rigveda X. In a creation myth Purusa was sacrificed by the gods in order to supply (from his body) the pieces from which all the things of the world arise. From this standpoint the ground of all things lies in a Cosmic Self, and all of life participates in that of Purusa. The Vedic hymn to Purusa may be regarded as the starting point of Indian pantheism. In the Upanisads (c. 1000-500 BC), the most important of the ancient scriptures of India, the later writings contain philosophic speculations concerning the relation between the individual and the divine. In the earlier Upanisads, the absolute, impersonal, eternal properties of the divine had been stressed; in the later Upanisads, on the other hand, and in the Bhagavadgita , the personal, loving, immanentistic properties became dominant. In both cases the divine was held to be IDENTICAL with the inner self of each man. At times these opposites were implicitly held to be in fact identical-the view earlier called identity of opposites pantheism. At other times the two sets of qualities were related, one to the unmanifest absolute Brahman, or supreme reality (sustaining the universe), and the other to the manifest Brahman bearing qualities (and containing the universe). Thus Brahman can be regarded as exclusive of the world and inclusive, unchanging and yet the origin of all change. Sometimes the manifest Brahman was regarded as an emanation from the unmanifest Brahman; and then emanationistic pantheism-the Neoplatonic pantheism of the foregoing typology-was the result. Sankara, an outstanding nondualistic Vedantist and advocate of a spiritual view of life, began with the Neoplatonic alternative but added a qualification that turned his view into what was later called acosmic pantheism. Distinguishing first between Brahman as being the eternal Absolute and Brahman as a lower principle and declaring the lower Brahman to be a manifestation of the higher, he then made the judgment that all save the higher unqualitied Brahman is the product of ignorance or nescience and exists (apparently only in men's minds) as the phantoms of a dream. Since for Sankara, the world and individuality thus disappear upon enlightenment into the unmanifest Brahman, and in reality only the Absolute without distinctions exists, Sankara has provided an instance of acosmism. --------------------------------------------------- ACOSMISM [is] in philosophy, the view that God is the sole and ultimate reality and that finite objects and events have no INDEPENDENT existence. Acosmism has been equated with pantheism, the belief that everything is God. G.W.F. Hegel coined the word to defend Benedict de Spinoza, who was accused of atheism for rejecting the traditional view of a created world EXISTING OUTSIDE GOD. Hegel argued that Spinoza could not be an atheist because pantheists hold that EVERYTHING is God, whereas atheists exclude God altogether and make a godless world the sole reality. Furthermore, because Spinoza's cosmos is part of God, it is not what it seems to be. He is acosmistic insofar as "noncosmic" seems to deny the cosmos-a position, however, very alien to Spinoza's thought. Acosmism has also been used to describe the philosophies of Hindu Vedanta, Buddhism, and Arthur Schopenhauer; and Johann Gottlieb Fichte used the term to defend himself against accusations similar to those leveled against Spinoza. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 12:31:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 20:31:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 7617 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 20:31:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 20:31:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 20:31:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Nov 2002 20:31:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:31:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2165 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.246.129.27 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Koot Hoomi wrote to A.P. Sinnett: > > "A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth > and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; 'No-being' and a > mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the > Vedantic primitive Acosmism." It might be worthwhile to mention the ideas of Basilides in this regard. Foe the benefit of Larry and others who might find it relevant, he claimed to have inherited the esoteric teaching of Matthias and Peter. Theists (Christians,usually, in this country) argue that there must be a God (i.e., theirs) because the world must have come from somewhere. As John Stuart Mill pointed out, the argument is basically flawed because we then have the right to ask where God came from. If we posit a superGod which was the origin of God, we still have the same problem. This is known in philiosophy as the "infinite regress" and is considered absurd. In abstract the argument is that being can only originate with Being; therefore if there is being (the Creation) there must have been a Being which preceded it (the Creator.) Basilides solved the problem by positing that being could be preceded either by Being or by Non-Being. He therefore does not dispute the argument that the Creation implies a Creator, and he allows that the Creator had a Creator, and so forth, but that ultimately one of these series of Creators was preceded by Non-Being and there the regress ends. The solution is ingenious, but if you look at it carefuilly, it does away with the need for a Creator, since the Creation could have proceeded directly from Non-Being. This is how I interpret a statement Feuerstein made to me in a letter, and which I have always considered a truly awesome thought: "In Buddhis, there is no Creator, which is whythe Creation remains the mystery that it is." The ideas Basilides and Valentinus wrote about were supposed to be sequestered rom the vulgar masses, and with the rise of the catholic church they xame to be completely ignored. Somehow I think the wrong party won. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 23 12:38:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 20:38:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 58300 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 20:38:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 20:38:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 20:38:14 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F7D14803D2 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:38:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001d01c2932f$7aff68a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:32:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Wry and all of you, Please clarify that statement Wry. I didn't get it. from M. Sufilight...being humble and all... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wry" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete > you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. > It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes > out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human > hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk till > death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is > no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > > A view: > > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" > on the > > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the > truth > > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, > > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that > mirror, God > > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or > individualised > > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and > to secure. > > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is > the > > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as > its > > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms > and > > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of > the many > > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of > the One; > > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into > many. > > But the One is ever One. > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... > > > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > > Everything has come from God. > > There is nothing except God. > > Nature is God's manifestation. > > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > > God is the immanent power in everything. > > > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is > > inter-dependent and inseparable. > > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its > > understanding. > > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, > established. > > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - > is a > > manifestation of the ATMA. > > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > > What you see is ATMA. > > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. > > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of > God. > > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to > > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our > preferences > > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue > picture of > > BRAHMAN. > > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our > reasoning > > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, > and on > > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. > > > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the > nature of > > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom > of Maya. > > > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya > produces > > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the > Vidya that > > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is > destroyed > > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are > > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > > > Love is our nature. > > Love is all. > > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > > Live in Love. > > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary > are > > spouriuos and missing the mark. > > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > > Develop love by sharing it. > > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > > The end of knoeledge is Love. > > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the > heart is > > true love. > > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > > Love wins against all evils. > > Love is patient when needed. > > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same > sense > > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > > > pantheism." > > > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But > this > > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, > whereas > > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > > > 57 caps added. > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 13:02:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 21:02:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 64427 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 21:02:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 21:02:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 21:02:28 -0000 Received: from pool0245.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.245] helo=earthlink) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FhPD-00056u-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:01:35 -0800 To: "AA-Eldon" Subject: FW: Theos-World == unsubscribe Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:57:42 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 23 2002 Dear Eldon: First: I am NOT UNSUBSCRIBING from THEOS-WORLD or THEOS-TALK. Second: I transfer to you a piece of instruction that has been addressed to me. However: -- May I take this opportunity to observe: And, I consider this is important. Third: I find more and more of subscribers to the chat-talk groups are UNSUBSCRIBING because of the flow of unchecked calumnies directed at H P B's good name and the irresponsible vilifying of the philosophy of THEOSOPHY (without proof) in general. I find that over the course of the last 3 or 4 years there is visible, a repetitious quality in certain mailings and postings of an insulting and inaccurate type. Refutation and proof of piracy and repeating exploded lies has had no effect on them. They do not stop, nor are the refutations returned by them, answered in any coherent way. In general, one observes that the prejudiced, adverse, and insulting postings do not reflect any degree of the fairness, or the inquiring, unprejudiced research of true scholarship. H P B is, of course, above such things, but to find her work being ridiculed for reasons that are long and well disproved is ridiculous. [ We ought to establish a catalog of these calumnies, and the location of documentary disproof of the same, for future easy reference. ] [If possible, on controversial postings, from those sources, I would exclude them, until they provide adequate referencing.] I am offended. I protest. I believe we ought to be engaged in more serous work. I am not going to name the sources of the recent, jackal-like chorus, of calumniating reports and postings, as they are obvious. There are about 6 of them now functioning. The level of sheer "noise annoyance" and confusion grows. In response, I have seen growing a growing number of defenders, well-qualified to refute by using available documents, and original sources, the pirated materials, the calumnies, so repeatedly, and so irresponsibly launched. These well qualified archivists have been responding with evidence of the use of lying and false, disproved statements, and an obvious lack of fairness. But, seriously, do we all have to continue to suffer from them, and reserve valuable time to efface their divagations from our records and our minds? Please consider this. There is a wide line between calumny and discussion, and sincere inquiry and investigation. The first accuses, the second inquires, in its attempt to get at the truth wherever an however found.. In the final analysis the scholar presents all facts, and sources, and allows the student/reader to make up their own mind. By all means let us study Theosophy, get to really know what it teaches, and then, inquire deeply into all aspects of learning and imagination, with a view to discover if there is any value there. Can we use it ourselves as a point of view? Does it encourage that attitude of true brotherhood which binds every living being, the "life-atoms," ourselves, and the innumerable Worlds together into ONE UNIVERSE? Best wishes, Dallas PS Have you read, recently Judge's article HOW SHE MUST LAUGH [PATH, July 1892] -- reprinted in Judge: Collected Articles (U L T edn..) Vol. I, p. 322 . ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Tony Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:52 AM To: Subject: Theos-World unsubscribe unsubscribe Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 23 13:05:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 23 Nov 2002 21:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 62985 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 21:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Nov 2002 21:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 21:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 65416 invoked from network); 23 Nov 2002 21:06:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (66.27.176.113) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 23 Nov 2002 21:06:20 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.27.176.113 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 16:06:20(EST) on November 23, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.27.176.113 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c29334$0f44e130$7700a8c0@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:31 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" > > Basilides solved the problem by positing that being could be preceded > either by Being or by Non-Being. He therefore does not dispute the > argument that the Creation implies a Creator, and he allows that the > Creator had a Creator, and so forth, but that ultimately one of these > series of Creators was preceded by Non-Being and there the regress > ends. The solution is ingenious, but if you look at it carefuilly, > it does away with the need for a Creator, since the Creation could > have proceeded directly from Non-Being. Steve: Your comments provide me the stimulus to enter into the deist/not-deist discussion. I find there two types of "infinity," relating to this idea that you mention. First is the looking bigger and bigger for a top-most creator of all. I'd say there is no top. One can keep looking bigger and bigger (or higher and higher) and always find something more. Second is the looking "sideways," for a creator of everything, everywhere. This is not a being or creator in the ordinary sense, but something else, a mystery behind the whole pattern and scale of being. It creates continuously, instant by instant, rather than in discrete manvantaric periods of evolution. There might be three golden chains of creation. First is the bigger being to smaller being chain, reaching upwards into infinity in the ordinary sense of creators. Second is the instantaneous creation of the whole game, not by any player or being, but arising spontaneously, although the term "arising" is misleading because that's an ordinary process that would relate to the first type of creation. The third type of creation is self-made. We have our own golden chain of selves reaching backward into the beginnings of time and forwards without end. If we consider a particular universe or scheme of existence, it represents the coming into existence of a particular being, a being that hosts innumerable smaller lives, not creating them but simply bringing together a world or place where they too can come into existence. Considering this particular creation, its occupants are guests, immortal monads of equal value and status to their "god," and would only look up to that being with gratitude in the same sense as a child might appreciate his or her parents providing a home to grow up in. The universe is not created out of nothing, but rather fashioned out of the primordial materials of yet a bigger scheme, in which the universe represents but a single being. There is never an actual creation out of nothing. Beings are given an opportunity to come into existence. The worlds themselves are fashioned out of preexisting primordial materials. The informing life acting as a "god" only provides the organizing effect of a life coming into birth on some great scale, just as a human life coming into birth provides the organizing energy that allows the fashioning of a human being that plays host to myriads of smaller living things. When we consider one such particular universe, world scheme, or incarnate being, its indwelling beings, the "creations," see its limits of existence, its parameters. Outside these parameters are things that are too high or low to exist or before the beginning of time or after the end of time. There are finite, actual limits to any scheme of existence. Transcending them, one experiences the "in-finite" or trans-finite. Apart from one's ordinary existence in such a world within a world within yet bigger world, each with its own scale, scope of existence, its own sense of time and time track, there is what might be considered the universal pattern, the pattern of existence that applies everywhere, everywhen, without change or exception. It is the second type of "in-finite," the type that deals with continuous creation. The first type of infinite is realized by evolution over time leading to perfection and the moving on to exist in bigger schemes of existence. The second type of infinite is equally realizable at any moment of time and any place on the evolutionary ladder. It is no more closer at the end of the Maha-Manvartara than it is now nor when the universe as we know it was just starting. It is realized as a mystery that words cannot be used to describe, that cannot be described with attributes like "father," "creator," or anything that describes any process we know of. A deist is looking at the first type of creator, the "father in heaven," the transcendent being that brought about existence as we know it, the being whose actual life informs all and makes life possible. The non-deist may sometimes be attempting to think of the other, more immediate, more intimate "creator," about which no words can possibly describe. -- Eldon From bilmer@surfsouth.com Sat Nov 23 16:54:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 00:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 50536 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 00:54:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 00:54:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta02.durocom.com) (216.53.195.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 00:54:15 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.168.146]) by fl-mta02.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021124005413.XSKH4306.fl-mta02@default> for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:54:13 -0500 Message-ID: <006c01c29354$87701240$92a880d8@default> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:57:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Wry, why are you responding to Paul, when it is Brigitte that has called you names and told you to leave? Paul and Brigitte are not the same person. Are you feeling OK? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wry" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. > Too late for you, Paul. TOO LATE. Try to have something impartial > record you as you walk down the street, and I will try to do the > same. I have been specially trained to deal with people like you. I > know you have a good heart, but certain projects are for the big boys. > If you want to stick around, and I'm sure you'll invent yet another > identity if you're banned from this list (actually you still may have > one left, but I sort of like him, so I won't go there right now), I > bear you no malice, but, for you're own sake and the sake of others, > try to feel remorse of conscience for your ignorant tampering with > reality. If you cannot feel sorrow for this, I will take it upon > myself, as a special task, to feel sorrow 4 you, STARTING NOW. Wry > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Wry: honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. > > > > Brian: This is noncence you made a list of false claims. > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > > I don't know if this information will help you out Paul, but I am > > > from the honey-makers, and I am a friend of theosophy. Wry > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > > wrote: > > > > Wry" wrote: > > > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > > > Muehlbach ... > > > > > > > > Wry you are obviously a fake, belong to some Chrstian group or > > > Church > > > > of some kind and are only here to create havoc so you can take > > over > > > > and offer your own product whatever it is. > > > > > > > > Tell us what your allegiance is or get back to your group > where > > > you > > > > belong. > > > > > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, > > > > > > > > > > FOR THOSE WHO HAVE STILL NOT READ THE POSTS > > REGARDING > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA > > > > > GOSWAMI'S IDENTITY AND CREDENTIALS. PLEASE SEE THE > > WORLD > > > > VAISHNAVA > > > > > ASSOCIATION (WVA) HOME PAGE NAMING ME TO HEAD THEIR > > > > INTERFAITH > > > > > COMMITTEE. PLEASE ALSO READ THE 1994 ORBIS BOOKS > > > > > PUBLICATION "EMBRACING EARTH : CATHOLIC APPROACHES TO > > > > THEOLOGY" ISBN > > > > > # 0-88344-966-8, EDITED BY PROF. JOHN E. CARROLL AND > > ALBERT J. > > > > LA > > > > > CHANCE. ORBIS BOOKS IS THE PUBLISHING HOUSE OF > > MARYKNOLL, > > > > THE > > > > > CATHOLIC FOREIGN MISSIONARY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. THEIR > > > > ADDRESS IS P O > > > > > BOX 308, MARYKNOLL, NY, 10545-0308, USA. > > > > > > > > > > I, BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, AKA BROTHER DAVID SHERMAN, > > WAS > > > > INVITED BY > > > > > THE EDITORS TO CONTRIBUTE A CHAPTER TO THIS BOOK ON > > THE > > > > ROLE OF > > > > > ASCETICISM IN THE JUDEO-CATHOLIC TRADITION, AND THE > > > > RELEVANCE OF > > > > > ABSTINENCE AND ASCETICISM AND OTHER TRADITIONAL > > CATHOLIC > > > > AND GANDHIAN > > > > > VAISHNAVA PRACTICES TO ECOLOGY TODAY. THE BOOK > > IDENTIFIES > > > > ME AS A > > > > > SANNYASI BY MY ORDAINED NAME BELOW, AND ALSO BY MY > > > > CHRISTIAN NAME. > > > > > > > > > > MY CHAPTER IS TITLED "CHOOSE LIFE". THE BOOK HAS > > RECEIVED > > > > PRAISE > > > > > FROM CATHOLIC LEADERS AND HAS BEEN USED IN PARISH > > > > COURSES, AS WELL AS > > > > > DISTRIBUTED BY PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE STOP INSULTING MYSELF, MY DAUGHTER AND OTHERS > > BY > > > > CLAIMING THAT > > > > > WE ARE NOT REAL PERSONS, AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS > > > > INVENTED US. > > > > > > > > > > BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > > > > > > > > > D catt; --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Daniel. What if there is NO Brigitte Muehlegger OR Brian > > > > > Muehlbach > > > > > > OR Goswami OR his "daughter?" What if THEY ARE ALL > > > > FABRICATED > > > > > > CHARACTERS? As for who is the person who could be doing > > this, I > > > > > will > > > > > > let you speculate on this when you are on vacation. You can > > > start > > > > > by > > > > > > looking at Bridgitte, who has told you much by giving > you "her" > > > so- > > > > > > called name. There seems to be a rich tradition of the > > > theatrical > > > > > in > > > > > > theosophy. but personally, the kind of behavior that is > being > > > > > > demonstrated on this list is immoral and would be against > my > > > > > > conscience as it involves duping innocent people WHEN IT IS > > NOT > > > > > EVEN > > > > > > NECESSARY, and it encourages fantasy and deceit when what > > is > > > > needed > > > > > > for genuine spiritual development is the the formation of a > > > > > spiritual > > > > > > community based on honesty and reality. To the person who > is > > > > doing > > > > > > this, figure out a way to redeem yourself, if it is even > > > possible. > > > > > > You are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of > doing. > > > There > > > > > is > > > > > > a name for this, but I will not call you it on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have smelled a great, big, stinking fish for some time, > but > > > maybe > > > > > > I, too, am a cheap cartoon character and this is all my > > > > > imagination. > > > > > > Do not question me about this further, as I will not > respond. I > > > am > > > > > > not even a theosophist, and it is NOT my job to sort this > out > > > for > > > > > you > > > > > > people, though I write this as your friend and a friend of > > > > > theosophy, > > > > > > Wry > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Paul, in a recent email you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Which brings to mind, in closing, a recent post by > Adelasie > > > > > about > > > > > > > Brigitte . . . " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may not know that Brigitte Muehlegger has not posted > > on > > > this > > > > > > > forum for months BUT Brian Muehlbach has been posting > > here > > > > since > > > > > > > August of this year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some time ago Bill Meredith stated on this forum that > Brian > > > and > > > > > > > Brigitte are actually the same person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Brian has denied that he is "Brigitte Muehlegger." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, Bill Meredith has stated that on another > forum > > > > > [WET?] > > > > > > it > > > > > > > was common knowledge that Brian was actually Brigitte. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, as founder and moderator of WET, can you confirm > > Bill's > > > > > > > statement that Brian is actually Brigitte? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be going on a 5 month vacation starting one week > from > > > > > today > > > > > > > but will check the Theos-Talk website several times in > the > > > next > > > > > > week > > > > > > > for any definitive information you can provide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 17:44:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 01:44:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 69089 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 01:44:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 01:44:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 01:44:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 01:44:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:44:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Wry I think you should stop with your stupid agitations and get out of here. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 491 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.231.83 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Wry" wrote: > Too late for you, Paul. TOO LATE. This list which seems to be too largely composed of nutters, keeps getting nuttier. Paul unsubscribed, as many others appear to be doing. At this rate soon it will just be you and Daniel and Brigitte. That is, if you and Daniel and Brigitte are three separate individuals. Wouldn't it be a hoot if all three of you were the same person and the three of you were here arguing all by yourself> From wry1111@earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 18:13:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 02:13:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 9751 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 02:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 02:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 02:13:10 -0000 Received: from 1cust167.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.167] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FmGj-0006RU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c2935f$4af8f100$a7d30b3f@idapingala> To: Subject: To Bill and Eldon and Everyone with Love Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:14:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Bill said << Wry, why are you responding to Paul when it is Bridgitte that has called you names and told you to leave? Paul and Bridgitte are not the same person. Are you feeling o.k?>> Wry says: Hi Bill, Eldon, and Everyone. Gee I'm sorry I have gotten sew mixed-up recently. I am feeling sad right now for anyone of us, including even possibly myself, who does not have a conscience that is developed to its full potential, but aside from this, am feeling very fine, as I act for the well being of MANY people, not just for myself, and, as previously stated, I am a FRIEND of theosophy, as I think many people on here realize, so I can sleep easy at night, knowing that a lot of love and maybe even gratitude will be coming my way in the future, from people on this list, rather than a lot of curses. I am still waiting for Brian and/or Paul to explain the email below, which I have not altered in any way and which was posted to this list (It is on the archives). Maybe it is "Brian" who is pretending to be "Paul." Why is no one asking for an explanation of this message? Also it is interesting that it is o.k. for you to assume Brian to be Bridgitte, but not o.k. for me to make an assumption after reading this email. And no, Brian, I am not from a fundamentalist "christian" group, but I follow the teachings of Christ, as well as those of Mahayana Buddhist, and I do not endeavor to tell, but always to show (Rev.6.6). This is how I do unto others, as this is how I would like others to do unto me. If there is not EXCESSIVE CHARACTER PL;AYING going on on this list, that is good and something we all can be grateful for. I will try to leave a message sometime in the future about a kind of theatrical character playing that is accepted and even expected to be a part and parcel of a certain spiritual tradition, but the time is not right for this now. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:20 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Adelaise on peace... Adelasie: But it is also possible to use the mantle of historical investigation to try to throw dust in everyone`s eyes, Paul: I see here the pattern of leaping from "perceived implications" to "imputed intentions" and it leads to demonization of others and degradation of discourse. That is, "X`s historical investigations have the = effect of making people feel as if dust has been thrown into their eyes, therefore that was X`s intention." Adelasie: to obscure the actual essential meaning of the thing so investigated. Paul: In all sincerity I doubt that any historian, professional or amateur,= has "ever" had any such intention. But I bet hundreds or thousands have been so accused. Adelasie: In the case of theosophy and HPB, opposition has tried to do this since the beginning. Paul: This is where things get very dicey. If you look at any new historical inquiry as possibly a tool of "opposition that has tried to do t= his since the beginning," you`re (impersonal you) going to be paranoid in your attitude toward historical scholarship. Particularly when you start applying this suspicion to people who have absolutely no interest or desire in harming anyone. Adelasie: There is a force called the disintegrator which attempts to keep these teachings and all ancient wisdom from being spread among humanity, Paul: What is the source for this? Sounds like a Theosophical version of the devil. And to interpret others as instruments of this evil force, tryin= g to prevent the spread of teachings, is no better than fundamentalist Christians seeing scholars of early Christian history as instruments of the= devil trying to undermine the gospel. On one hand, you seem to be saying that you don`t want to be enemies with me or anyone else with whom you disagree on HPB; then on the other you turn around and implicitly accuse us all of Satanic inspiration. Can you really have it bot= h ways? Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 23 19:25:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 03:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 21883 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 03:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 03:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 03:25:40 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FnOu-00029S-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:25:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE046BA.7E148EC8@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:25:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: THE SYNTHEIC CONTENTS OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > Although Blavatsky in waking state is indeed famous for her > anti-Jewish and anti Christian tirades. Did anybody ever use the > online search engine of the Mahatma Letters to check Bible related > expressions ? Blavatsky was against organized religions, especially when the organizations became more important than the religions. Bart Lidofsky From levey_steven@hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 19:38:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 03:38:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 9587 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 03:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 03:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 03:38:27 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:38:27 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World == unsubscribe Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:38:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2002 03:38:27.0851 (UTC) FILETIME=[F35C15B0:01C2936A] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.147] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dallas and Eldon-I have been back a week and all that Dallas says is so obviously true. it is really unbelievable how so many are doing the work of the detractors of Theosophy simply by carrying on assaulting each other and thereby leaving H.P.B. and the Mahatmas open to ridicule. My point in saying this is that all who actively sign on to such a group of this or any kind, which have determined to join to assist in the study of Theosophy, do so with some responsibility, whether they know it or not. As Dallas points out, H.P.B. is above all of this (quite literally as are the Mahatmas for the same reasons), but Theosophy as an organ of their work in the world is not. Pride is perhaps the worst of all weaknesses and those who have carried on in such accused fashion, per Dallas's letter, can allow my response to roll of their shoulders if they will, but, let them rise to the occasion and swallow their pride and move on. History is littered with the corpses of such attempts as this group because they did not rise and simply allowed themselves to fall. So, forgive my any presumption on my part for coming out like this but let us enjoy an open forum of Theosophical inquiry, which will assist the Theosophical movement and those saw fit to bring it about rather than the opposite-Steve levey ----- Original Message ----- From: dalval14@earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:02 PM To: AA-Eldon Subject: FW: Theos-World == unsubscribe Nov 23 2002 Dear Eldon: First: I am NOT UNSUBSCRIBING from THEOS-WORLD or THEOS-TALK. Second: I transfer to you a piece of instruction that has been addressed to me. However: -- May I take this opportunity to observe: And, I consider this is important. Third: I find more and more of subscribers to the chat-talk groups are UNSUBSCRIBING because of the flow of unchecked calumnies directed at H P B's good name and the irresponsible vilifying of the philosophy of THEOSOPHY (without proof) in general. I find that over the course of the last 3 or 4 years there is visible, a repetitious quality in certain mailings and postings of an insulting and inaccurate type. Refutation and proof of piracy and repeating exploded lies has had no effect on them. They do not stop, nor are the refutations returned by them, answered in any coherent way. In general, one observes that the prejudiced, adverse, and insulting postings do not reflect any degree of the fairness, or the inquiring, unprejudiced research of true scholarship. H P B is, of course, above such things, but to find her work being ridiculed for reasons that are long and well disproved is ridiculous. [ We ought to establish a catalog of these calumnies, and the location of documentary disproof of the same, for future easy reference. ] [If possible, on controversial postings, from those sources, I would exclude them, until they provide adequate referencing.] I am offended. I protest. I believe we ought to be engaged in more serous work. I am not going to name the sources of the recent, jackal-like chorus, of calumniating reports and postings, as they are obvious. There are about 6 of them now functioning. The level of sheer "noise annoyance" and confusion grows. In response, I have seen growing a growing number of defenders, well-qualified to refute by using available documents, and original sources, the pirated materials, the calumnies, so repeatedly, and so irresponsibly launched. These well qualified archivists have been responding with evidence of the use of lying and false, disproved statements, and an obvious lack of fairness. But, seriously, do we all have to continue to suffer from them, and reserve valuable time to efface their divagations from our records and our minds? Please consider this. There is a wide line between calumny and discussion, and sincere inquiry and investigation. The first accuses, the second inquires, in its attempt to get at the truth wherever an however found.. In the final analysis the scholar presents all facts, and sources, and allows the student/reader to make up their own mind. By all means let us study Theosophy, get to really know what it teaches, and then, inquire deeply into all aspects of learning and imagination, with a view to discover if there is any value there. Can we use it ourselves as a point of view? Does it encourage that attitude of true brotherhood which binds every living being, the "life-atoms," ourselves, and the innumerable Worlds together into ONE UNIVERSE? Best wishes, Dallas PS Have you read, recently Judge's article HOW SHE MUST LAUGH [PATH, July 1892] -- reprinted in Judge: Collected Articles (U L T edn..) Vol. I, p. 322 . ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Tony Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:52 AM To: Subject: Theos-World unsubscribe unsubscribe Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 23 19:39:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 03:39:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 88496 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 03:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 03:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 03:39:36 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FncN-0006Ia-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:39:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE049FE.FA4AE33D@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:39:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? References: <188.11643e38.2b10b2c0@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > Appreciate your quoting such documentation, or giving me some > references -- (preferably on the web, if possible). My father, a > master chemist, occultist, stage magician, show producer, and good > friend of Houdini, demonstrated how Moses pulled off his trick of > turning his real staff to a snake and back to a staff -- to defeat the > snake trick of the Egyptian Priests (which my dad told me were simple > tricks of alchemy). However, since I suspect that there isn't any > real evidence that Moses' trick had anything to do with paralyzing a > real snake, as claimed by Brian/Bridgitte, I'd like to confirm this. I didn't know your father was Walter Gibson. Over the years, my magic (stage) library has steadily decreased. It's not in any of my current volumes, and, as it reveals how tricks are done, it is not likely to be on the web (I looked anyway, using a BUNCH of different search terms and phrases). I had read it in at least three history of magic books; two used the wood explanation, one gave as alternatives the wood and the paralyzed snake theories. The last also gave detailed explanations of Egyptian temple hydraulics, so I would not dismiss the "minority report" out of hand. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 23 19:49:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 03:49:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 15804 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 03:49:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 03:49:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 03:49:18 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Fnll-0000xD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:49:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE04C43.442F2202@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:49:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Not really. It is a scientific fact, for example, that the color red > does not exist in nature, but only in our consciousness. It is a frequency of electromagnetic waves. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 23 20:08:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 04:07:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 12956 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 04:07:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 04:07:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 04:07:59 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Fo3q-0002WC-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:07:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE050A4.F80F86B8@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:08:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. References: <20021123.133936.-827681.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. ALL blood lines are pure. All our physical (physically) descendents of a couple of Africans, according to the DNA record. Therefor Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Nov 23 20:37:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 04:37:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 63849 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 04:37:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 04:37:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 04:37:25 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FoWK-0004qM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:37:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE05789.4CEFBBED@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:37:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Talk Subject: Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Just want to comment on the various comments about Paul Johnson posting under the Bri***** or Go-Go Swami aliases. I know Paul Johnson. Paul Johnson is a friend of mine. And those two are no Paul Johnson's. Bart Lidofsky From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 23 20:48:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 7242 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:48:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2674 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Originating-IP: 66.27.176.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Generally, I like to think of the mailing list as a microcosm of the greater community of people that might want to talk about Theosophy. There would be some chaos at times, but I would expect a constructive order to arise out of the chaos and something of value to come of the exchanges. At the present, the way that people have been treating each other has been poor. In the past five days, we've gotten three new subscribers and had seven unsubscribe. I've gotten various letters complaining about things. I'll be thinking about what to do and try to come up with something by Sunday. (It's still Saturday night in California as I write this.) Meanwhile, I'll say that the purpose of the list is to explore the theosophical philosophy, which includes a comparative and respectful study of other beliefs. No one has the final word to speak on Theosophy to the others, either as an authority on its doctrines nor as the one, true historian knowing exactly what is behind it all. Everyone, please try to communicate in a way that is not dogmatic in tone nor hostile to other fellow seekers. The intended purpose of the list is not to be a battleground for anyone seeking to "debunk" it. It is to explore and understand the philosophy and follow a spiritual quest. It is intended to be a library, lecture hall, church, or nature retreat, not a courtroom where litigants can bring charges, making challenge after challenge. People on the list are mainly here to learn, study, and share in a mutual spiritual quest. Aggressive missionaries for other beliefs should put down their weapons of war and join us in peace, or go do battle elsewhere. People don't want their time wasted countering an unrelenting assult on characters they may consider their Gurus or on noble sentiments that they hold close to their hearts. I would also like to mention something that appears on all the Theosophy World web pages: Please note that the materials presented are the intellectual property of their respective authors and may not be reposted or otherwise republished without prior permission. In a scholarly work, a short quote with proper citations may be made of a work, although if it is taken out of context or misrepresented, its use is unethical. Copying of entire messages or misrepresenting things is not acceptable behavior, though, and is intolerable. Anyone with suggestions should write me and I'll consider them while pondering what to do about the mess the list seems to be in. Meanwhile, I'd suggest that we keep up the good postings and simply ignore the ones that may be objectionable. -- Eldon Tucker (writing as listowner) From eldon@theosophy.com Sat Nov 23 20:52:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 04:52:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 53175 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 04:52:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 04:52:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 04:52:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 19606 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 04:53:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (66.27.176.113) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 04:53:25 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 66.27.176.113 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 23:53:25(EST) on November 23, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 66.27.176.113 To: Subject: the color red is many things Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:52:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c29375$4d5e5640$2e00fc0a@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3DE04C43.442F2202@sprynet.com> From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@sprynet.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:49 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed > > Steve Stubbs wrote: > > Not really. It is a scientific fact, for example, that the color red > > does not exist in nature, but only in our consciousness. > > It is a frequency of electromagnetic waves. > > Bart Another change to jump in with a few comments ... The physical frequency exists for the color red, but the sense perception may or may not be experienced. Someone could be colorblind and not distinguish red from some similar shade of gray. Someone could have synaesthesia and perceive the color from an association with a number or sound. It gets trickier when someone can physically see color but is colorblind for some psychosomatic reason. With dogs, the sense of smell is considerably advanced. They can distinguish people by smell and a bloodhound can track an individual from a sample smell. We can smell the same molecules, but do not have the sensory apparatus nor perception developed to that degree. In addition to physical senses, the associated astral senses may not need physical sense organs as "input devices," so that it is possible to have sensory perception beyond which the physical body can support. With a man or woman, the senses are less developed that in male or female animals. This is not because humans are less developed. It is because the predominate emphasis in evolution is on the cultivation of the mind and inner life. There is much to us that goes beyond eating, sleeping, sex, and shelter from the elements; although to look at some people, you would wonder what that could be! Another aspect of sense perception is related to the training of the mind. The first instant that we see a painting, it's an unintelligible splash of color. The mind almost immediately makes sense of it and we might say that we see a picture of a couple in a boat on a lake on a sunny afternoon. The mind imposes a reality over the sense perception both filtering and giving meaning to things. When we see a color and recognize "red," it's the mind that has had that thought. With training in art and the recognition of color, one might be able to recognize and name hundreds of colors. Without much training, another might only recognize five or ten colors. What one person calls "red" might be one of twenty different colors that the other person clearly distinguishes and pictures in their mind. The same is true of inner experiences. One person without the subtly of metaphysical training (theosophical or otherwise), might have a limited vocabulary and tend to lump many experiences under a single description. The other person might have a wealth of ideas to draw upon and a trained perception that allows for a much richer field of inner experience. -- Eldon From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sat Nov 23 21:05:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 05:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 72042 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 05:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 05:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 05:05:28 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.147.47]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H62000JYE50PO@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:05:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:06:03 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: eldon@theosophy.com Message-id: <002001c29377$30d8efb0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 Dear Eldon, I requested to re-join the List a while ago, since I have a few questions regarding the Secret Doctrine. Maybe it would be better to have an access to the archives, as I do with another List, which helps to choose only those topics of interest, without being exposed to flame wars. Or maybe I can post to the List, and receive answers as backchannel. I'll appreciate your assistance. Love in Him. Etzion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: Theos-World *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list > Generally, I like to think of the mailing list as a microcosm of the > greater community of people that might want to talk about Theosophy. > There would be some chaos at times, but I would expect a > constructive order to arise out of the chaos and something of value > to come of the exchanges. > > At the present, the way that people have been treating each other > has been poor. In the past five days, we've gotten three new > subscribers and had seven unsubscribe. I've gotten various letters > complaining about things. I'll be thinking about what to do and try > to come up with something by Sunday. (It's still Saturday night in > California as I write this.) > > Meanwhile, I'll say that the purpose of the list is to explore the > theosophical philosophy, which includes a comparative and respectful > study of other beliefs. No one has the final word to speak on > Theosophy to the others, either as an authority on its doctrines nor > as the one, true historian knowing exactly what is behind it all. > Everyone, please try to communicate in a way that is not dogmatic in > tone nor hostile to other fellow seekers. > > The intended purpose of the list is not to be a battleground for > anyone seeking to "debunk" it. It is to explore and understand the > philosophy and follow a spiritual quest. It is intended to be a > library, lecture hall, church, or nature retreat, not a courtroom > where litigants can bring charges, making challenge after challenge. > > People on the list are mainly here to learn, study, and share in a > mutual spiritual quest. Aggressive missionaries for other beliefs > should put down their weapons of war and join us in peace, or go do > battle elsewhere. People don't want their time wasted countering an > unrelenting assult on characters they may consider their Gurus or on > noble sentiments that they hold close to their hearts. > > I would also like to mention something that appears on all the > Theosophy World web pages: Please note that the materials presented > are the intellectual property of their respective authors and may > not be reposted or otherwise republished without prior permission. > > In a scholarly work, a short quote with proper citations may be made > of a work, although if it is taken out of context or misrepresented, > its use is unethical. Copying of entire messages or misrepresenting > things is not acceptable behavior, though, and is intolerable. > > Anyone with suggestions should write me and I'll consider them while > pondering what to do about the mess the list seems to be in. > Meanwhile, I'd suggest that we keep up the good postings and simply > ignore the ones that may be objectionable. > > -- Eldon Tucker (writing as listowner) > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 23 22:56:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 06:56:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 57396 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 06:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 06:56:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 06:56:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 06:56:08 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:56:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Daniel C. Caldwell and pervert quereness. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1188 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach I consider it a pervert quereness of (mentally disturbed ?) Daniel C. Caldwell for accusing me, who has fathered two children of being "female." In fact my picture is on my website for eveybody to see. In fact I never in my live lived in "Austria" as Danield C. Caldwell also claims on this list. Looking for explanations for Calwell strange behaviour on this list Caldwell like many other cracpots on this list might for example be (Bart anyone ?) Adyar TS members that as has been reported on theos talk to date indeed place a large picture of Leadbeater on their convention stage. To give one example, it is a matter of public record that Adyar TS members have defended child molestion in court as "spiritual." Sorry for Etzion Becker and a few others who have an honest question but it is doubtfull they will receive an honest anser. In fact postings with factual contents are consistantly ignored by Daniel C. Caldwell et Co. for example yesterday: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9087 Brian From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 23 23:18:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 07:18:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 74246 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 07:18:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 07:18:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 07:18:47 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.161.17970513 (3948) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:18:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <161.17970513.2b11d752@cs.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:18:42 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Steve, Have you read G. R. S. Mead's "Fragments of a Faith Forgotten?" It seems like you have. Also In his "Pistis Sophia(Faith Wisdom}" we find the Mystery Play about the Cosmic Creation involving Yaldabaoth and his 7 Archons. Yaldabaoth was called "The Abortion of Sophia" in this Gnostic Mystery Drama. One day he proclaims "I Am God - and there is none Above Me!". Sophia, the inseparable Consort of the Father overhears him utter this thought from the Heights of the Superior Plane from which she had cast Yaldabaoth into a Lower Realm, and calling down to Yaldabaoth below tells him "Say not that Yaldabaoth, for there is yet One above thee". In this construction Yaldabaoth performs the function of the Demiurgos and Creator of the Material Creation along with his Seven Archons. Thanks to the publication of long lost works we can glean a window into the actual tenets held by some of these today obscure groups. The Nag Hammadhi Library is a Treasury of these Documents recovered after so many centuries of exile. John From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 23 23:53:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 07:53:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 94385 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 07:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 07:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 07:53:18 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.12e.1bdc68ff (3948) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:53:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12e.1bdc68ff.2b11df67@cs.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:53:11 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Hmmm, It makes me wonder why a Bull charges a Toreador. John From wry1111@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 00:01:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 08:01:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 98201 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 08:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 08:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 08:01:01 -0000 Received: from 1cust59.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.59] helo=idapingala) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FrhH-0001n5-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:00:55 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c2938f$e010d0c0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <001d01c2932f$7aff68a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:02:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. I thought everyone would understand my message. Here is a paraphrase. Compare this to the original and see if this makes sense: Thought cannot figure things out, because it is only one function. To understand requires a balance of thought, feeling and body, which form a sort of trinity. The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn In order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note God, one has to either put God in a box, which obliterates the concept of God, as God cannot be boxed, or else to obliterate oneself, in which case, God cannot be recognized or noted. Therefore this is an unreconcilible situation, but if something is OUTSIDE this situation, these two extremes can be polarized consciously in such a way that a third force is created. In such a way, one consciously creates oneself out of a flexible firmanent by direct and exact imprint.This is the divine on earth in the manifestation of creative love, which is symbolized by the anointing hand which represents the conscious and therefore transcendent ACT and the combination of duality with creativity (two with three to make a five). The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to God. This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's house is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream. But to stay with the "lack" and not to move away from it is the beginning of a reversal of the current, out of which is generated the creative act. And true creation is a completed and yet continuously generative deed, the end event connected to the beginning by means of the brea-dth or the middle. This is BEING. What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such a way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected image, which is a form of spiritual incest. This is not about talk, which, unfortunately, will not do the trick, but about using language in such a way that talking becomes a sacred act and a doorway. It is not the subject of conversation that makes talk sacred, but the FORM of the consciously omitted essentials, which cannot be described by language anyway, only cheapened.This omission, if structured in such a way that something which cannot be spoken is GIVEN, forms a sacred vowel. Thank you for asking me what you do not understand , and by doing so, helping me to understand better myself. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > HI Wry and all of you, > > Please clarify that statement Wry. > I didn't get it. > > > from > M. Sufilight...being humble and all... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wry" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete > > you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. > > It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes > > out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human > > hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk till > > death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is > > no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > > > > A view: > > > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" > > on the > > > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > > > > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > > > > > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > > > > > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the > > truth > > > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > > > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, > > > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that > > mirror, God > > > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or > > individualised > > > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and > > to secure. > > > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is > > the > > > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as > > its > > > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms > > and > > > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of > > the many > > > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of > > the One; > > > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into > > many. > > > But the One is ever One. > > > > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... > > > > > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > > > Everything has come from God. > > > There is nothing except God. > > > Nature is God's manifestation. > > > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > > > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > > > God is the immanent power in everything. > > > > > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is > > > inter-dependent and inseparable. > > > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its > > > understanding. > > > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, > > established. > > > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - > > is a > > > manifestation of the ATMA. > > > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > > > What you see is ATMA. > > > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > > > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > > > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > > > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. > > > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > > > > > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of > > God. > > > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to > > > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our > > preferences > > > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue > > picture of > > > BRAHMAN. > > > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our > > reasoning > > > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, > > and on > > > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. > > > > > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > > > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the > > nature of > > > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom > > of Maya. > > > > > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya > > produces > > > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the > > Vidya that > > > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is > > destroyed > > > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are > > > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > > > > > Love is our nature. > > > Love is all. > > > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > > > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > > > Live in Love. > > > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > > > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary > > are > > > spouriuos and missing the mark. > > > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > > > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > > > Develop love by sharing it. > > > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > > > The end of knoeledge is Love. > > > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the > > heart is > > > true love. > > > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > > > > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > > > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > > > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > > > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > > > Love wins against all evils. > > > Love is patient when needed. > > > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > > > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > > > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same > > sense > > > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > > > > pantheism." > > > > > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But > > this > > > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > > > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > > > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, > > whereas > > > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > > > > 57 caps added. > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 00:40:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 88700 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:40:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Survey on 19th Cent. Aryanism. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 12575 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Tomorrow I will place following plus any reactions to it that come in=20 today: Anybody in the world, can for a small fee obtain/order e-mail copies=20 on =96line from the British Museum Library in London by referring to: India= =20 Office Records, British Library, London: R/1/1/162. Here also seems to be a hint, why/how Afghani, the Christian- British raised Dalip Singh, Katkov (besides the Blavatsky "Atlantis/via=20 Tibet theory" the most popular theory that time was that the Aryan's=20 came from S. Russia and settled in the Indus river valley in the Punjab)=20 and Afghani, could find a "common" ground the "Muslim"(otherwise=20 enemies of the Punjabi Sikhs) Afghani was indeed "Iranian". Born in a country that was part of the Aryan myth, so was Dalip, and=20 Katkov according to the myth told in the 19th century about this subject=20 (and I never wanted to imply they where intended racist that time!) but=20 we do find in the SD that same "common ground" like: "As the comparatively fair Brahmins have come - when invading India=20 with its dark-colored Dravidians - from the North, so the Aryan Fifth=20 Race must claim its origin from northern regions." (The Secret Doctrine=20 Vol. 2, Page 768) The dwarfed and weakened men of Bengal and the Deccan with Punjab,=20 where the lethal influence of Mussulman, and later on of European,=20 licentiousness, has hardly touched the orthodox Aryan castes, [and=20 there] one ,still finds the finest men - so far as stature and physical strength go on the whole globe. (Secret Doctrine Vol.II, Adyar=20 1979, p.411) Also in spite of missing evidence to me it seems difficult to accept that = =3D=3D=0D =20 Henderson would have made such a grand mistake when he staked his=20 claim after so many years on this case as an under=20 secretary to the government of India , and who also wasthe chief=20 investigator of the Dalip Singh revolt in India.=20 Convinced he wrote on 15 June 1887 regarding information received=20 on "excellent authority," to the Police Commissioner of Madras. " When=20 Colonel Olcott was in India in 1882-83, he founded a secret society=20 among the Theosophists in Calcutta called=82 "The Aryan League of=20 Honour." The purpose of this secret society is said to be to send=20 information to Russia, and the headquarters are now said to be in=20 Madras.=20 An agent of the society was sent to England and is supposed to be the=20 medium, or one of the mediums, of transmitting information. (Meaning=20 The Mahatma Letters !?) This man is one Mohini Mohun Chatterji, who worked for some time in=20 an attorney`s office at Calcutta. About four years ago he went to England on the plea of being called to the Bar. He is known to have=20 made frequent visits to the continent, and is now in America ostensibly=20 engaged on a translation of the Vedas, a task for which I understand he=20 possesses no qualifications whatever. I heard from England myself that=20 Mohini Mohun was in the habit of seeing a great deal of Duleep Singh.=20 There is a prevailing impression, whether right or wrong, that the=20 members of the inner circle at any rate of that society have aims and=20 objects other than those ordinarily expressed. The information on this subject, comes from so many sources that it is difficult to disregard = =3D=0D =3D=20 it.=20 And at the present time the necessity for vigilance to intrigues going on in India has been impressed on the Government of India." (end quote Colonel Hendorsen's letter )=20 On 18 June, three days later, the deputy Police Commissioner of=20 Madras confirmed base on his own sources that such a secret "Aryan League of Honour" really existed and wrote to Henderson:=20 " only a few selected men were admitted, amongst these were Narendo Nath Sen, the Editor of The India Mirror. Mohini Mohun is one=20 of their means of transmitting information, and his brother, Romoni, also=20 sends him news." (India Office Records, British Library, London: R/1/1/162) And if one puts everything together that is known today (2002)of the=20 Katkov/French/Dalip/ and Afghani who during his stay in London=20 (certainly just like some of the Masonic lodge members in Cairo he=20 was "British")lived in the house of the person close to Viceroy in India=20 that time who he was leter to visit. If you ad that to "The Master Revealed": IN JANUARY 1886, OLCOTT PROPOSED to HPB that she=20 assist in establishing a collaboration between the Brahmin Theosophist T. Subba Row and some Masters of the Egyptian=20 brotherhood. This never came to fruition, but Olcott's letter is=20 fascinating: Subba Row is getting keen on a collation of Indian and Egyptian esoteric philosophy and symbolism .... He keeps coming here and=20 always asks for books which deal with Egyptian Mythology etc. Now do=20 this: through Borj, or Twitit B: or III: or someone, arrange to organize at=20 Cairo a couple like Subba Row and Oakley, who would keep in regular=20 correspondence with these two, and exchange ideas, questions and=20 answers .... Maspero is anxious to make just such a correspondence,=20 but he is too thundering busy. If there were an Oakley there to go at=20 him, hunt up the books he would indicate, and write the letters,=20 enormously good results would follow all around, for Maspero would put it all in his books and Reports, and we would put it into the Th. and=20 books. Would Gregoire d'Elias be any good? I think not. Would Isurenus B. help you?' This passage gives three new names to investigate in the search for the Masters. It is interesting in itself that Olcott refers to Hilarion III= =3D=0D =3D=20 :),=20 Tuitit Bey, and Isurenus Bey (who signed Olcott's first letter from the=20 Masters as Polydorus Isurenus) in such matter of fact terms. 3ut far=20 more useful to researchers are the names of Borj, Maspero,=20 and ,regoire d'Elias. A search through the Theosophical literature uncovered no Borj, Olcott's handwriting deceived the letters' compiler Trevor Barker on=20 more than one occasion. For example, he takes an obvious reference .o=20 the Sinhalese Buddhist priest Sumangala as "Samanyala," which implies that Olcott's g's are not readily identifiable. A Borg appears in one the=20 most important of all Mahatma communications, the one K. H. made=20 materialize in Olcott's hand when he appeared in his tent outside Lcihore in November 1883. It accuses Olcott of being overly=20 suspicious, "sometimes cruelly so-of Upasika, of Borg, of Djual-K., even of Damodar and D. Nath, whom you love as sons.", In the diary she kept in New York, HPB referred to someone whose=20 name is transcribed as "Boag" from whom she had received mail. The=20 entry for 6 December reads, "A letter from Richard and Boag informing=20 of the arrival from Russia of a parcel.", Again, questions of handwriting confuse the issue, giving three spellings of what would=20 seem to be the same name. But of the variant spellings it becomes=20 apparent that Borg is correct when we examine Nikki Keddie's biography=20 of Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani. She writes that "Afghani and a group of his=20 followers first joined an Italian lodge in Alexandria, but were=20 influenced=3D=20 by EnglishVice-Consul Ralph Borg to join an English lodge, whose=20 numbers reached 300, including many leaders of the nationalist=20 movement of 1878-1882 . The case that HPB's Egyptian Brotherhood was the circle=20 surrounding Afghani is considerably strengthened by these fragments of evidence concerning Borg. Who Was Who gives his first name as=20 Raphael; Keddie's error is due to reliance on Muhammad Sabry, whose=20 information came from oral testimony of eyewitnesses years after=20 Afghani's departure. Who Was Who also summarizes Borg's career,=20 spent almost entirely in Egypt. Beginning as a supernumary clerk to the consular court in Alexandria in 1863, he became chief clerk there the=20 same year. In 1865 he was appointed cancellaria clerk in Cairo, where=20 he was later acting consul for various periods from 1868 to 1875. After serving as acting vice-consul in Cairo in 1875-76 he became viceconsul in 1880. In 1884 he was appointed consul there which he=20 remained for the rest of his career except for an interval as acting consul-general in 1895. He died 24 January 1903.=20 The most likely Richard to whom HPB refers seems to be Charles Louis=20 Florentin Richard, French Orientalist and author of Scenes of Arab Life,=20 Mysteries of the Arab People, Inevitable Revolutions in the World and=20 Humanity, and other books. A source of information on Borg's links with Afghani and Sanua is=20 Juan R. I. Cole's Colonialism and Revolution in the Middle East. Cole=20 surveys Egyptian history from 1858 through the British occupation of=20 1882, emphasizing the origins of the nationalist movement. His research made extensive use of the Egyptian National Archives,=20 manuscript collections in Egypt and the United States, and published=20 literaturein Arabic and English. Borg is frequently cited as an eyewitness = =3D=0D =3D=20 to events.=20 Most often, he is quoted to document expressions of unrest among the=20 peasantry, military and intelligentsia. Identified by Cole as a "Maltese fluent in Arabic," Borg is a central figure in the chapter entitle= =3D=0D =3D=20 d "Political Clubs and the Ideology of Dissent.", The most fruit ful source=20 o=3D=20 f=20 information on his Masonic links with Afghani and Sanua is a collection of documents confiscated from Jamal ad-Din at the time of his expulsion from Egypt. Sanua's relationship with Isma'il had gone through several phases by=20 the time he joined the Star of the East lodge which Borg had established in Cairo. After a period as tutor in the home of Isma'il's predecessor Sa'id, Sanua taught at the Cairo Polytechnic Institute for=20 most of the 1860s. From 1870 through 1872 he served as=20 Isma'il's "court playwright", until he lost his position after offending th= =3D=0D =3D=20 e=20 Khedive and the British. In 1874 and 1875 he founded two political=20 organizations which were quickly proscribed by Isma'il, the Circle of=20 Progress and the Society of the Lovers of Knowledge.,, Afghani joined the Star of the East lodge around the same time as=20 Sanua, and from December 1877 through July 1879 he served as=20 president of lodge 1355. It is unclear how many Star of the East lodges existed in Cairo at the time, and to which group Borg and Sanua=20 belonged. Cole explains the circumstances surrounding the closing of=20 lodge 1355: The leaders of the Star of the East closed down Cairo lodge 1355 on 1=20 July 1879 and forbade its leader from engaging in any further masonic=20 activity until the order's highest leadership (in Europe?) could be=20 consulted, citing Sayyid Jarnalu'd-Din's political agitation in Egypt. According to Sayyid Jamalu'd Din's answers during police interrogation after his arrest, however, the main issue over which he=20 and the Star of the East leadership quarreled had rather to do with=20 which successor to Isma'il each supported. Sayyid Jamalu'd-Din and his=20 followers wanted Isma'il's son Tawfiq, whereas Raphael Borg and other=20 leaders of the Star of the East favored Isma'il's uncle, 'Abdu'l-Halim.' That Sanua sided with Borg against Afghani is clear from his Abou=20 Naddara, which promoted the cause of 'Abdu'l-Halim. Jamal ad-Din soon=20 had cause to regret his support for Tawfiq, who had him arrested 21=20 August 1879 "as head of a secret society of youth that formed a menace both to religion and to the state" and had him deported soon=20 thereafter. Jamal ad-Din's friendship with Sanua clearly survived the collapse of lodge 1355. In 1884, when Afghani went to Paris, he was on cordial terms with Sanua, who taught him French. The status of=20 Borg's relations with Sanua and Jamal ad-Din after 1879 is unknown. No trace of Borg as the author or subject of a book was found in the - ourse of research, but Gregoire d'Elias appears to have been the author of a play published in Seville in 1871. Entitled Lo Que Tiene Mi Mujer, it is listed as a comic one-act play in verse by Gregorio Esteban=20 de Elias. Gaston Maspero (1846-1916) was a French Egyptologist and author of=20 many books on Egypt. Born in Paxis of Italian parents, he became=20 Professor of Egyptology at the college de France in 1874. According to Isabel Cooper-Oakley-', During her stay in Egypt 1885, HPB was received as a distinguished guest by the Russian consul and the=20 Khedive.(end quote) There just seem to be to many correlations here to forget about Jamal=20 ad-Din. Who in the late 1850s was already reported to have been in India. And left again for India around the same time Olcott and=20 HPB (both traveling on US diplomatic passports) did. Doesn't the puzzle regarding al afghani seems to fit ? See also: http://www.geocities.com/aryannews/europe.htm From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 00:41:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 08:41:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 88955 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 08:41:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 08:41:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 08:41:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 08:41:12 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:41:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DE05789.4CEFBBED@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 182 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach For some of the words of "K. Paul Johnson" mostly on theos talk see : http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/convwithth.html http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/strategies.html From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 03:06:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 11:06:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 93320 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 11:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 11:06:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 11:06:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.11a.1a916f8d (4238) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:06:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <11a.1a916f8d.2b120cc3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:06:43 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY THE MASTERS OF ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Bhakti Ananda Goswami: I entirely agree with the response of Eldon Tucker to your recent post of part 1 of your article. In addition, I do take responsibility for some of the "hastily written postings" he mentioned... And wish to state that, while I have a "yoga" system of my own, I have no wish to argue about the fundamental concepts or teachings upon which your personal religious belief system and practice rests. Apropos, I regret the thoughtless misidentifying of you as "Vedantist and separatist." Please accept my apology for using such ad hominem terms, and lumping you together in a letter directed to someone else -- with whom I have serious disagreements concerning the baseless and opinionated propaganda methods and techniques used by that writer to make a case against the validity of the theosophical teachings, as well as impugning the honor and credibility of its teachers -- who no longer can defend themselves. Please understand that, since my letters are written in a public "theosophical" forum, my response to the anti-theosophical beliefs of that writer rests on the writings of HPB (and the Masters she professed to represent) -- with respect solely to their metaphysical teachings -- which I have been interpreting, ontologically, strictly from a scientifically valid point of view. Whatever "religious" beliefs that these teachings and their interpretation in scientific terms may engender, I leave strictly to the judgment of each individual student. Respectfully and Sincerely, Leon H. Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.htm http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 24 03:22:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 11:22:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 97022 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 11:22:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 11:22:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 11:22:31 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8996C4801E8 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:22:30 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004201c293ab$03108460$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:17:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Eldon and all of you, To all of you: Feel completely free to agree or disagree on the below. My motives with this email a wellmeaning for all here at Theos-talk. Wellmeaning. My views are: God - ParaBrahman always helps everyone. The kind of help one gets can be quite unexpected. I am not emailing you in private Eldon , because I think that to be the best. Did your email below in fact suggest people to email you in private with suggestions ? And thanks for your email Eldon. It helped me, and I think the list needed it. But I also feel somewhat uncertain because of its content. Does the content of your email imply, that people from other thoughtsystems or different kinds Religions than Theosophy now are no more welcome at this place ? And if they are not - why ? If they are welcome - then in what manner are they welcome ? (I.e. not using negations) I think there is a needed for more clarification here. What do you think ? I also think we will have to be at least a little patient from time to time. Because writing emails - is a kind of an art. Well, Living is to me an art. More over, this list has members from - a number of non-english countries (the language used at Theos-talk) and a variety of cultures. And exactly because of that and also because of the subjects dealt with, the tendency of emails being created - which contains misunderstandings, are somewhat high here at Theos-talk. one ought to deal with misunderstandings in a proper a compassionate manner. I think, that has been one of the problems lately on this list. I think, there is no fast quick-fix solution on that. One will have to live with it - or changes the member-policy for Theos-talk. If the word "misunderstandings" was taken by people at Theos-talk to be one of the more commen rootcauses to - the sort of heated debates at Theos-talk - some problems will or could disappear. But, of course this are not the only problem which has been around lately on Theos-talk. My mind tend to think about - the debates in the olden days like the ones between Shankaracharya and other sages, or Buddhas debates with his disciples, - and other debates through time were serious dispute between different thoughtsystem have taken place. - This is to me an example on what this list for instance could be doing. I.e. for instance. The fruits of that could be something great for everyone. The following are just views about this list. Feel completely free to agree or disagree: Maybe there also is a law for lists like this by the name Theos-talk. This law could be spiritual or is spiritual. Social relations like the ones here at Theos-talk are different than ordinary social relations between people. At least it must be true with wisdom and Extra Sensory Perception being on the agenda. To some these relations are quite developing. To others they are definately not. But who is to deceide that - if any ? In the olden days and today the Sage sort of collected a number of disciples around him/her. This number was often not very high. Often between 12-30 people depending on who it was and is. This for practical reasons. Fewer disciples - equals - MORE quality in education and spiritual growth. Well, for most Sages. >:-) But the need for a kind of 'open' place, where debates can run - somewhat more freely, is noted. And that is what Theos-talk is doing in at present. If the members were centered more around a teacher, then the attitude would maybe be different on Theos-talk - depending on the kind of leadership of the teacher. Even if he was a very very friendly and democratic one. >:-) So we will have to remember our past lives, where we got educated in smaller groups. And remember that this habit of good experiences - some members seem to be missing here at Theos-talk from time to time. That is maybe also why there comes problems here at Theos-talk from time to time. Sometimes some talk about to many emails are being made - and that their e-mail box get overcrowded or the like. What is the policy on that ? Well, let us just say that the above is a view, one could have. To all of you: Feel completely free to do your best... from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 5:48 AM Subject: Theos-World *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list > Generally, I like to think of the mailing list as a microcosm of the > greater community of people that might want to talk about Theosophy. > There would be some chaos at times, but I would expect a > constructive order to arise out of the chaos and something of value > to come of the exchanges. > > At the present, the way that people have been treating each other > has been poor. In the past five days, we've gotten three new > subscribers and had seven unsubscribe. I've gotten various letters > complaining about things. I'll be thinking about what to do and try > to come up with something by Sunday. (It's still Saturday night in > California as I write this.) > > Meanwhile, I'll say that the purpose of the list is to explore the > theosophical philosophy, which includes a comparative and respectful > study of other beliefs. No one has the final word to speak on > Theosophy to the others, either as an authority on its doctrines nor > as the one, true historian knowing exactly what is behind it all. > Everyone, please try to communicate in a way that is not dogmatic in > tone nor hostile to other fellow seekers. > > The intended purpose of the list is not to be a battleground for > anyone seeking to "debunk" it. It is to explore and understand the > philosophy and follow a spiritual quest. It is intended to be a > library, lecture hall, church, or nature retreat, not a courtroom > where litigants can bring charges, making challenge after challenge. > > People on the list are mainly here to learn, study, and share in a > mutual spiritual quest. Aggressive missionaries for other beliefs > should put down their weapons of war and join us in peace, or go do > battle elsewhere. People don't want their time wasted countering an > unrelenting assult on characters they may consider their Gurus or on > noble sentiments that they hold close to their hearts. > > I would also like to mention something that appears on all the > Theosophy World web pages: Please note that the materials presented > are the intellectual property of their respective authors and may > not be reposted or otherwise republished without prior permission. > > In a scholarly work, a short quote with proper citations may be made > of a work, although if it is taken out of context or misrepresented, > its use is unethical. Copying of entire messages or misrepresenting > things is not acceptable behavior, though, and is intolerable. > > Anyone with suggestions should write me and I'll consider them while > pondering what to do about the mess the list seems to be in. > Meanwhile, I'd suggest that we keep up the good postings and simply > ignore the ones that may be objectionable. > > -- Eldon Tucker (writing as listowner) > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Nov 24 03:26:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 11:26:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 32741 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 11:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 11:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 11:26:54 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.103] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A6FF5BE50108; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 05:24:47 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021124052644.030f2a70@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 05:28:52 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World *** official message *** things getting a bit too wild on the list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eldon: Looks like it is time to do something. As one can never satisfy everyone in the world, I am for any action you deem appropriate. mkr At 04:48 AM 11/24/02 +0000, Eldon B Tucker wrote: >At the present, the way that people have been treating each other >has been poor. In the past five days, we've gotten three new >subscribers and had seven unsubscribe. I've gotten various letters >complaining about things. I'll be thinking about what to do and try >to come up with something by Sunday. (It's still Saturday night in >California as I write this.) ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 03:32:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 11:32:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 38512 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 11:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 11:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 11:32:16 -0000 Received: from user-38ldn9f.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.221.47] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Fuzm-0003da-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:32:14 -0800 To: Subject: RE: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-Being" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:28:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 23 2002 Re: Creation, Progression or Infinite Evolution. Dear Friends and Steve: The problems with creationism and positing a God that makes something out of nothing hardly solves the fact that we are here along with a lot of other entities. Some think, some are less informed, and some know a lot more than we do. The main thing is we are here. How did we, and all around us, begin? How is any Human Being born? As for the body, we know the parameters. As for the Mind, we do not, but there is much speculation. As to the "character, desires, urges, motivations, etc," we also speculate. And as for the Spirit, some question its very existence. In this case why not turn to The SECRET DOCTRINE and see what it has to say? Then we will know what is taught there, and perhaps with the urging of H P B and our own common sense we will arrive at some conclusions. "Infinite regression," far from being "absurd" merely indicates there is a series of Universal activity periods -- presumably, followed by appropriate rest periods (as in "sleep"). But at no point is it suggested that CONSCIOUSNESS and MEMORY are obliterated. There is no logic for that. The Manvantaras are each and all followed by an equally long period of "rest" (Pralaya). [ This is indicated in the First Stanzas from the BOOK OF DZYAN in The SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I p. 27-8. ] What the early Gnostics ( Basilides, Valentinus, Marcion, Simon Magus, etc...) taught we have only fragments as the early Church Fathers, in their desire to establish dogma and orthodoxy, in the Church, systematically destroyed many important Gnostic documents in Western Europe (the Eastern Church in Eastern Europe preserved them) -- but that seems to be the fate of many ancient systems. Later the Library at Alexandria, (like that at Eleusis and Pergamon) thrice rebuilt, was finally sacked and burnt by Caliph Osman in the 7th century, when the Arabs overran Egypt and Assyria, and despoiled both countries. As I understand it, Theosophy presents a review of all that was thought of and known, and tried to show the unity of ancient wisdom through references to the available past in ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE, as well as in a number of articles, such as ANCIENT PHILOSOPHERS AND MODERN CRITICS [ H P B Articles: LUCIFER, July / August 1892; reprinted in Vol. I, p. 14 of H. P. B. Articles, (U L T edn.) ] where our Greek roots in philosophy (as reposed in the "Mysteries" and early Masonry ) are discussed. And those all pointed back to their antecedent roots further East. [ Ex oriente lux.] There the philosophical and informational links in the period of Pythagoras and Plato are shown to extend to Egypt and to India. One thing we do learn and that is the world of Knowledge and of Wisdom are universal and timeless. Our modern advances and discoveries are shown to have been known in antiquity. Briefly, Theosophy holds that our present Universe, our present solar system, our Earth and our own SPIRITUAL SELVES are all reincarnations of a serial spiritual quality; and their beginning cannot be traced in a past that has any meaning for us. To our mental gaze it appears infinitely to recede. So be it. Our presence here is evidence of that continuity, not of form or body, but of SPIRIT. And, as far as I know, the SPIRIT IS. It is not made. In Theosophy, the spiritual focus of every level or type, as the force or power of incarnation, resides in the remote and indescribable ABSOLUTENESS, which, like SPACE always IS, whether there is manifestation and incarnation or not. We all bathe in IT. To secure an idea of the periods of time we could consider, we might turn to The SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. II, pp. 68 to 70, where the vast time cycles are disclosed and discussed, and with this before us, try to relate them to our own rather brief existence in our present "personality" -- the "here and now." I do not see how we can arrive at any final determination. Also one thing I am quite sure of: I would prefer an impersonal, universal, just, honest and sincere LAW operating in harmonizing and supporting the UNIVERSE and its vast diversity of beings than some petty, poorly constructed, whimsical, and angry or inept "God." There is every evidence that is not the case, so let us act within the parameters of that which is reasonable, and let common sense be our guide in all relations. If we are all fellow immortals we have lived together before, and will again. I would rather have friends than enemies any time. Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:31 PM To: Subject: Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. C" wrote: > K H wrote to A.P. Sinnett: > "A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; 'No-being' and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism." ---------------------------- It might be worthwhile to mention the ideas of Basilides in this regard. For the benefit of Larry and others who might find it relevant, he claimed to have inherited the esoteric teaching of Matthias and Peter. Theists (Christians,usually, in this country) argue that there must be a God (i.e., theirs) because the world must have come from somewhere. As John Stuart Mill pointed out, the argument is basically flawed because we then have the right to ask where God came from. If we posit a super God which was the origin of God, we still have the same problem. This is known in philiosophy as the "infinite regress" and is considered absurd. In abstract the argument is that being can only originate with Being; therefore if there is being (the Creation) there must have been a Being which preceded it (the Creator.) Basilides solved the problem by positing that being could be preceded either by Being or by Non-Being. He therefore does not dispute the argument that the Creation implies a Creator, and he allows that the Creator had a Creator, and so forth, but that ultimately one of these series of Creators was preceded by Non-Being and there the regress ends. The solution is ingenious, but if you look at it carefuilly, it does away with the need for a Creator, since the Creation could have proceeded directly from Non-Being. This is how I interpret a statement Feuerstein made to me in a letter, and which I have always considered a truly awesome thought: "In Buddhism, there is no Creator, which is why the Creation remains the mystery that it is." The ideas Basilides and Valentinus wrote about were supposed to be sequestered from the vulgar masses, and with the rise of the catholic church they came to be completely ignored. Somehow I think the wrong party won. CUT From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 24 04:47:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 12:47:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 51287 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 12:47:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 12:47:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 12:47:56 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-16.look.ca ([216.154.45.16] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18FwAy-0004eW-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:47:53 -0500 Message-ID: <3DE0CAC6.9330058B@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:49:10 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Leon's center/zero point in terms of duality/maya . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote: <> I seem to generally respond to those kinds of words/concepts from a somewhat different angle than you, Leon. So my following comments might suggest to you that I avoided or didn't understand the issues that you might've seen youself as having been concerned about in that post. Your "center/zero point" brought to mind the dualistics involved in reference making, in general, to begin with, amomg other things: in other words, to me, the concept of "center" implies the existence/creation (in terms of "a karmic variable," if you prefer . . .) of a dualistic medium of the kind that one can define/describe so as to posit a "center" into it; but surely HPB's references to a "center or zero point" had an esoteric aspect to them, as well, that no dualistic/literal interpretation, alone, would do justice to? As I see it, in dualistic terms (what other kinds are there, one might ask, justifiably?): The concept of a center implies or posits---as per one's apparent/experiential/karmic/interpretive "sense of reality"---a medium of duality as the ground in which such references "can be made" and in which they would become/appear "real enough." As I see it, a "center," by definition, within duality, (or within dualistic, manasic reference making), can ONLY exist within that dualistic paradigm/model, which is another way of saying that all "centers" in dualistic terms are mayavic, (as per the esoteric tradition), arising out of karmic "initial assumptions," which, in turn, relate back to, depend on, whatever karmic/dualistic engagements are "seen" (as per a manasic/karmic effect) to "have occurred" (as per "that kind" of mayavic, "logical progression") as "causative" within a linearity that (within that mayavic progression) literally has no beginning, no "real enough cause" and, being causeless other than in whatever interpretive/apparent comparative/dualistic terms, is extensively dependent on its "reality" on karma and duality; and so such centers are, therefore, in that sense, as I see it, mayavic (as per the esoteric tradition). Not that I'm promoting some kind of out-of-hand negation of various dualistic versions, models, Theosophics. But/"but" . . . And not that such short-comings (maya) seem to bother mainstreamers much in the sense that, generally, as I see it, most humans don't seem to ruminate much over basic unreality, aside from various particulars? As I see it, there's a mainstream, manasic tendency to follow the kind of "logic" (ie, relevance making within a "collectively agreed about worldview") that a collective/karmic/dualistic medium/ground would seem to give least resistance to, from whatever interpretive perspective. I tend to see a basic aspect of "centers" in terms of the kind of "logical progressiveness" adopted and karmically engaged in by manas (that karmic/"logical" progressivity or evolving process lending itself to manasic defining in terms of "human senses"), so I tend to see "centers/centering" as suggestive of manasic products of perception supported/"influenced" by karma and duality to the extent that they have evolved into various realities, worlds, worldviews, sciences, and exoterics in general: ie, it's as if there's a parallel between centric/reductionistic (or karmic/interpretive) "manasic initial assumptions" and the perceived/apparent (mayavic) mainstream worldview. My simpler explanation for the preceding: Watch out for those wooden nickels, eh! <> Since those are relational (dualistic, maya-related) questions, what's the point in asking them? Well . . . Anyway, I just offered my versions of answers for those kinds of questions, and for the following from the rest of your post, Leon: <>>>>>> ==========end of quote Speculatively, Mauri PS Anyway, the preceding was my exoteric version. For those who would prefer my esoteric treatment of the same, here's my helpful suggestion: just put quotes on all my words, and then read it again. PPS Well, in a sense, I was kidding about the quotes for "my esoteric version," but, on second thought, (or first thought . . .) in a sense I wasn't kidding, so . . . ^:-) . . . I'm kind of alternately scratching my head and chuckling (which is really nothing new, but/"but". . .). From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 04:57:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 90723 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 12:57:23 -0000 Received: from user-38ldn9f.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.221.47] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FwK9-0000nh-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:57:21 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed -- SEEING GOD Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 24 2002 Dear Friend: In my experience, as along-time student of Nature and of Theosophy, I would observe: Theosophy excludes nothing, nor does it set parameters or limits for consideration. I try not to do those things either. Call me a liberal who hails common sense as the best safeguard we all can use. For instance "epistemology" by definition, seems to be an exercise in personal prejudices. In my "For example," who sets the "methods and bounds of knowledge?" How are "limits or validity" established ? The Dictionary gives a pretty nasty , almost dogmatic, meaning to "epistemology." It seems to me that subjects for study are innumerable. Observations are then not subject to any pre-set limits. What may be validity for one, may be yet unexperienced by others. The lack of experience ought to cause, at best, the setting of such statements or observations, aside for future reference and not for obliteration or concealment. If any one presumes to set limits, it is obviously (to me) only for themselves, and no one is capable of obscuring the vision and thought processes of others. It is admitted that they may try to do that, but then they cease to be honest and objective, and are found to have adopted some set of rules purely their own. They seek to establish and maintain their own limited orthodoxy. It is not the orthodoxy of Nature, which is sensitive, responsive and quite immovably heterodox. Nature is admitted to me the repository of rules and laws which being just, fair and impartial are the basis for all scientific examination, and also for human inter-relationships. In my observation, the realm of NATURE and the UNIVERSE, even our Earth and our own bodies, have plenty of unexplored regions. We cannot deny to others the right to discover by investigation. If however those findings upset preset theories, and hypothesis, that does not make them suspect, but merely draws our attention to the fact that the original "ground rules" were not set wide or deep enough. Let me mention a few areas of ignorance. Medicine and health are not fully explored, discovered or explained. The human mind has many recesses left unexplored. The quality and nature of emotion, and its seeming rule over rationality makes for many unexplained gaps in psychology. The "Soul" of man is still to be defined. Some say it is the mind. some say it is a combination of mind and emotion. Are emotions and desires different from "thought?" Is there a "SPIRIT?" If so, where, and how identified? The urges and motivations of our lives need identifying. Many regions of science show that active discovery still brings to light facts -- some of which contradict long established theories. We notice important advances in mathematics, physics, astro-physics, and the science of vibration and it transmission and effects. But what are the "fundamentals" you choose to look at? Could they also be mine? Are they for all ? Let me also say that Nature was here long before the last 225 years that Science (established and codified by Napoleon) was established by his order to make serious investigations, unsupervised by a prejudiced and dogmatic clergy. So too, in philosophy, and in the history of religion and theogonies, there is much to be examined, compared and adjusted. Myths and legends need to be examined and codified. I would say that any limits we set to our considerations are set up by the lack of experience we have. But of course, I may have misunderstood you and may be giving the wrong answers. I have not found the Theosophical philosophy to be exclusive in any way, and therefore prefer its "open field" approach to investigation. I don't think any one will not profit from it. I find that most who are academy trained today are more trained in impossible and unproved hypotheses which limit the mind and its innate freedom. The sooner one can escape from those bonds, the better. Best wishes, Dallas. -----Original Message----- From: rnewman2003 [mailto:robertnewman@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:19 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed -- SEEING GOD --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: ...unless we agree that we are studying together and seeking to discover things together the conversation has not much future. Dallas, people cannot discover things together unless they agree to accept the same principles of epistemology. I have stated that the only proof of the existence of anything, phenomenal or noumenal, material or transcendental, is direct experience of the same. Either we have such an experience ourselves, in which case the issue is not a matter of faith but of certainty, or we accept the possibility on faith, based on the reported experiences of others whom we find credible, for one reason or another. You, on the other hand, seem to accept only possibilities which fall within the scope of Theosophical metaphysics and psychology. That is certainly your privilege, and again, if it works for you, I wouldn't want to disturb you. But in that case there is no question of fruitful discussion; we're speaking different languages on the most fundamental level. Still, as a fellow seeker, I thank you for this stimulating exchange, and I wish you all the best. Hare Krishna, as we say in the "trade." :-D Robert Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 24 05:20:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 13:20:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 74655 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 13:20:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 13:20:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 13:20:54 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B41A4808BB for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:20:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <033901c293bb$8cd482e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <001d01c2932f$7aff68a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <001b01c2938f$e010d0c0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:15:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Wry and all of you, Thanks for answering Wry. You seem to be allright. The below answer is meant in a friendly manner. No thoughts cannot really figure out very much, - they often make trouble, and disagree with your views. I suggest you try Atma or God or ParaBrahman - and not Ice cream. Smile. Wry wrote: "The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn In order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note God, one has to either put God in a box,...." (and so on...) My Sufilight answer: Yes. Wry, and that was what my previous email on Love, God, Maya, and Ignorance stated. Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 Try reading it again. Wry wrote: "The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to God. This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's house is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream." My Sufilight answer: I don't get that. What is wrong with - seeking God or to think God, breathe God, live with - and - in God ? Love and God are NOT synonymous with ice cream ! Come on Wry... That must be a wrong assumption. Ice cream is something you eat, and it is not really healthy. (You could be right - but then Wry also could be called an Adept or the like - just like that... And I don't think so yet Wry. Just me trying to make a point. >:-) An honest smile.) With all these chemicals in Ice creams today, which gives people allergic reactions etc..., that must be stepping on the line, to have such a view. >:-) (An honest smile.) But, but: The house - the children and the fire --- and even your ice cream - is in essence God. I.e. in essence. That was also what my statement in the previous email on Love, God, Maya, and Ignorance stated. Try reading it again. Wry wrote: "What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such a way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected image, which is a form of spiritual incest." My Sufilight answer: "Incest" is, I think, not the proper word Wry, as this is a different issue. H. P. Blavatsky has said something on - the mentioned "oppositions " in the above - in The Secret Doctrine. Something like: The Adwaita Sage say: Everthing is God - ParaBrahman. The Buddhist says: There is no God. And Blavatsky say, that both are right, it is just a question about how one views the world. In the Bhagavad Gita, which is stated as the Essence of the Upanishads, one gets, TWO paths: "1. Those devotees who, always devout, thus contemplate You (as the attribut ParaBrahm), and those also who (contemplate) the Impersihable, the Unmanifest (as Not this, Not that), - which of them are better versed in Yoga ? 2. Those who, fixing their thought on Me, (The thought of ParaBrahma) contemplate Me (The thought of ParaBrahm), always devout, endued with sumpreme faith, those in my opinion are the best Yogins." 3.-4. Those who ever contemplate the Imperishable, the Indefinable, the Unmanifest, the Omnipresent, and the Unthinkable, the Unchangeable, the Immutable, the Eternal - having restrained all the senses, always equanimous, intent on the welfare of all beings, - they reach Myself (ParaBrahma). 5. Greater is their trouble whose thoughts are set on the Unmanifest; for the Goal, the Unmanifest, is very hard for the embodied to reach." (from a private translation of The Bhagavad Gita) Well, I am maybe just stupid... A question to Wry and all readers: How do one get rid of the Nuclear Weapons on this Planet ? By not talking about them ? To all of you: Feel free to do your very best... from M. Suiflight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "wry" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > Hi. I thought everyone would understand my message. Here is a paraphrase. > Compare this to the original and see if this makes sense: Thought cannot > figure things out, because it is only one function. To understand requires a > balance of thought, feeling and body, which form a sort of trinity. > > The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn In > order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which > cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note > God, one has to either put God in a box, which obliterates the concept of > God, as God cannot be boxed, or else to obliterate oneself, in which case, > God cannot be recognized or noted. Therefore this is an unreconcilible > situation, but if something is OUTSIDE this situation, these two extremes > can be polarized consciously in such a way that a third force is created. In > such a way, one consciously creates oneself out of a flexible firmanent by > direct and exact imprint.This is the divine on earth in the manifestation of > creative love, which is symbolized by the anointing hand which represents > the conscious and therefore transcendent ACT and the combination of duality > with creativity (two with three to make a five). > > The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to God. > This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's house > is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of > pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream. But to stay with the "lack" > and not to move away from it is the beginning of a reversal of the current, > out of which is generated the creative act. And true creation is a completed > and yet continuously generative deed, the end event connected to the > beginning by means of the brea-dth or the middle. This is BEING. > > What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by > which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such a > way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected image, > which is a form of spiritual incest. This is not about talk, which, > unfortunately, will not do the trick, but about using language in such a way > that talking becomes a sacred act and a doorway. It is not the subject of > conversation that makes talk sacred, but the FORM of the consciously omitted > essentials, which cannot be described by language anyway, only > cheapened.This omission, if structured in such a way that something which > cannot be spoken is GIVEN, forms a sacred vowel. Thank you for asking me > what you do not understand , and by doing so, helping me to understand > better myself. Sincerely, Wry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:32 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > HI Wry and all of you, > > > > Please clarify that statement Wry. > > I didn't get it. > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight...being humble and all... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Wry" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM > > Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete > > > you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. > > > It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes > > > out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human > > > hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk till > > > death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is > > > no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > > > > > > A view: > > > > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" > > > on the > > > > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > > > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > > > > > > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > > > > > > > > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the > > > truth > > > > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > > > > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, > > > > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that > > > mirror, God > > > > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or > > > individualised > > > > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and > > > to secure. > > > > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is > > > the > > > > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as > > > its > > > > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms > > > and > > > > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of > > > the many > > > > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of > > > the One; > > > > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into > > > many. > > > > But the One is ever One. > > > > > > > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... > > > > > > > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > > > > Everything has come from God. > > > > There is nothing except God. > > > > Nature is God's manifestation. > > > > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > > > > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > > > > God is the immanent power in everything. > > > > > > > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is > > > > inter-dependent and inseparable. > > > > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its > > > > understanding. > > > > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, > > > established. > > > > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - > > > is a > > > > manifestation of the ATMA. > > > > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > > > > What you see is ATMA. > > > > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > > > > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > > > > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > > > > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. > > > > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of > > > God. > > > > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to > > > > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our > > > preferences > > > > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue > > > picture of > > > > BRAHMAN. > > > > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our > > > reasoning > > > > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, > > > and on > > > > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. > > > > > > > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > > > > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the > > > nature of > > > > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom > > > of Maya. > > > > > > > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya > > > produces > > > > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the > > > Vidya that > > > > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is > > > destroyed > > > > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are > > > > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > > > > > > > Love is our nature. > > > > Love is all. > > > > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > > > > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > > > > Live in Love. > > > > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > > > > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary > > > are > > > > spouriuos and missing the mark. > > > > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > > > > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > > > > Develop love by sharing it. > > > > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > > > > The end of knoeledge is Love. > > > > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the > > > heart is > > > > true love. > > > > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > > > > > > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > > > > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > > > > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > > > > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > > > > Love wins against all evils. > > > > Love is patient when needed. > > > > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > > > > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > > > > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > > > > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > > > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same > > > sense > > > > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > > > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > > > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > > > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > > > > > pantheism." > > > > > > > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > > > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But > > > this > > > > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > > > > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > > > > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, > > > whereas > > > > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > > > > > 57 caps added. > > > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 07:19:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 15:19:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 35860 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 15:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 15:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 15:19:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 15:19:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:19:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DE049FE.FA4AE33D@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1623 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.231.104 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: I did not understand the question, but Budge (British Egyptologist) wrote about this in his EGYPTIAN MAGIC. Also th e story of the parting of the Red Sea, which was an ancient Egyptian fairy tale which somehow got melded into the Moses story. > leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > Appreciate your quoting such documentation, or giving me some > > references -- (preferably on the web, if possible). My father, a > > master chemist, occultist, stage magician, show producer, and good > > friend of Houdini, demonstrated how Moses pulled off his trick of > > turning his real staff to a snake and back to a staff -- to defeat the > > snake trick of the Egyptian Priests (which my dad told me were simple > > tricks of alchemy). However, since I suspect that there isn't any > > real evidence that Moses' trick had anything to do with paralyzing a > > real snake, as claimed by Brian/Bridgitte, I'd like to confirm this. > > I didn't know your father was Walter Gibson. > > Over the years, my magic (stage) library has steadily decreased. It's > not in any of my current volumes, and, as it reveals how tricks are > done, it is not likely to be on the web (I looked anyway, using a BUNCH > of different search terms and phrases). I had read it in at least three > history of magic books; two used the wood explanation, one gave as > alternatives the wood and the paralyzed snake theories. The last also > gave detailed explanations of Egyptian temple hydraulics, so I would not > dismiss the "minority report" out of hand. > > Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 07:25:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 15:25:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 55278 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 15:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 15:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 15:25:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.144] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 15:25:04 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:25:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DE04C43.442F2202@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 413 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.231.104 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > It is a frequency of electromagnetic waves. I did not say that the electromagnetic spectrum did not exist in nature, butthat the experience of the color red does not ecist. Red is a representation in consciousness of somrthing else. The assumption that our conscious representations are reality itself is known in philosophy as "naive realism." From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 24 07:46:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 15:46:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 76609 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 15:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 15:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 15:46:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 15:46:12 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:46:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna)" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3232 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Brian Muehlbach, You wrote: "I consider it a pervert quereness of (mentally disturbed ?) Daniel C. Caldwell for accusing me, who has fathered two children of being 'female.' In fact my picture is on my website for eveybody to see. In fact I never in my live lived in 'Austria' as Danield C. Caldwell also claims on this list." Brian, you say you have never "lived" in Austria, yet you signed two of your emails posted on "IndianCivilization" as follows: Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna) Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28578 Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna) Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28581 It would appear that you are SOMEHOW RELATED to the University of Vienna (Austria). If not, why did you sign these two emails in that fashion? When you sign emails with "Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna)", it must mean something, right? More could be said on this, but I will move on. Brian, there are ALSO other subscribers on this list under the impression that you are Brigitte Muehlegger. For example, Bill Meredith wrote on Theos-Talk: "I think most of us know that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul. The truth is that she acknowledged this several months ago on another list [WET]." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7947 Brian, do you declare as FALSE Bill's statement that "she [Brigitte] acknowledged this [that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul] several months ago on another list [WesternEsotericTraditions]"? Even Paul Johnson recently wrote that: ". . . it's apparent to everyone else that they [Brian & Brigitte] manage the same website, ergo..." Yes, "ergo" indeed. Brigitte was the webmaster of the site that you are NOW the webmaster. Furthermore, consider your email address listed on your web site: news@ brian-muehlbach.com The domain brian-muehlbach.com is apparently registered to Brigitte Muehlegger. See http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois If you look up the WHOIS record on that site you find the following info (I give only the first eleven lines of info): Domain Name.......... brian-muehlbach.com Creation Date........ 2002-08-10 Registration Date.... 2002-08-10 Expiry Date.......... 2003-08-10 Organisation Name.... Brigitte Muehlegger Organisation Address. Auhofstrasse 168/12 Organisation Address. Organisation Address. Vienna Organisation Address. 1130 Organisation Address. A Organisation Address. AUSTRIA If you are not Brigitte, then it is fairly obvious [from a historical research perspective if not from a commonsense point of view] that you know and "work" with Brigitte in some capacity. Do you deny that you know Brigitte Muehlegger? Also Brian, remember that even you wrote not too long ago: "Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne, whatever." Therefore, if some of us choose to still call you Brigitte, then don't we have YOUR BLESSINGS to do just that because you wrote "...never mind on-line you can call me ANYTHING YOU WANT..."? caps added. Enough said on this subject. Daniel From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 07:49:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 79913 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:49:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <161.17970513.2b11d752@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1772 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.231.104 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Steve, > Have you read G. R. S. Mead's "Fragments of a Faith Forgotten?" Yes, I have. My omments were based on a study of Juppolytus and Irenaeus, both of whose works can be downloaded free from thre web. > In his "Pistis Sophia(Faith Wisdom}" we find the > Mystery Play > about the Cosmic Creation involving Yaldabaoth and his 7 Archons. > Yaldabaoth > was called "The Abortion of Sophia" in this Gnostic Mystery Drama. That was a Valentinian iea which they insisted was part of the esoteric teachin of the apostle Paul. When Paul poke og himselas one "born out of time" (i.e., as an abortion) he is said to have been referring to this idea for the benefit of the initiated, while puposely confusing everyone else. There are numerous other comments in his surviving letters which also refer to esoteric ideas, but which uninitiated readers pass right over. One > day > he proclaims "I Am God - and there is none Above Me!". This refers to the ignorance of the Demiurge, who believed he created the world and was himself uncreated. The same idea appears in Buddhism. > The Nag Hammadhi Library is a Treasury of these Documents recovered > after so > many centuries of exile. Almost all of it is online, but hard to read unless you have studied Irenaeus, who wrote to be obscure and yet preserve a serviceable jey to the system. He is like Blavatsky. He reveals and yet conceals at the same time. But he had access t lost documents and discussed the system at length with Valentinian Gnostics, which we cannot do. One of the things he concealed behind a lot of orthodox fustian was his wvident sympathy and admiration for the esoteric teaching. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 08:27:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 16:27:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 23428 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 16:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 16:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 16:27:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 16:27:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:27:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Daniel C.Caldwell quer and constant insultive behaviour. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6472 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach University of Vienna that is obviously where my sever is as you pointed out by yourself.msome people have as server yahoo yet might live in africa or in Asia not the US were the yahoo server is, you know that verry well as you reun more then one website yourself. Do you live in the actual place where your server is ??? Millions of people worldwide don't ! In any case this is well known yet you kept insisting I am a female in spite of the fact the I am not Brigitte Muehlegger. So I must considdder you a very very strange queer if nor worse then that. As for strange people like you testifying to protect the childmolesting behaviour just to get another queernes example in the stile you are adamant of. Do place the records of the courtprocedure where people of youir above misjudgement caliber where defending the molestating behaviour of Charles Leadbeater in court. Place the proceedings on line if you are honest and qwe can all discuss them. There are other patterns fitting into your behaviour. George Arundale, for example, defended Leadbeater child molestation charges on the grounds that "the extraordinary purity of his own life enables him to handle, as no other teacher, as no other individual, would dare to handle, problems of vital moment to the growing youth."( General Report of the Forty-seventh Anniversary and Convention of the TS 1922, Adyar, Madras: Theosophical Publishing House 1923,p.13.) Besant herself argued regarding the child molestation charges brought against Leadbeater in court, that occult morality "cares for realities not conventions" and concluded, "I speak on this as an Occultist. 'He that is able to receive it [this teaching], let him receive it."( "A Letter to the Members of the Theosophical Society," November 1908, 5-6,111/46F, TSE.) Theosophical Society members continually invoked his authority as an eminent occultist in defending his actions. For example, William Glenny Keagey's "General Memorandum" on the subject pronounced Leadbeater's "qualifications for expressing an authoritative opinion on the subject to be exceptional." (W G. Keagey, "General Memorandum on the Recent Attack against Mr. Leadbeater," 21 November 1906, 2, 6-7, 111/ 46M, TSE.) There are other testimonies made especially during the various court hearings of the child molestation charges. I just received photocopies of all of them, but it is a 56cm high pile, so it will take me a few days to work through all of them. Tomorrow I will start by placing following article plus any reactions to it. And I hope to place a Leadbeater courtcase article within 3 days, at which time I will move on to other subjects on "Esoteric and Pseudo-Science News." A book is being written about this rediquolous behaviour of theosophists in Dezember this year. Maybe you will learn from that to behave as litter more cultivated : http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Dear Brian Muehlbach, > > You wrote: > > "I consider it a pervert quereness of (mentally disturbed ?) Daniel > C. Caldwell for accusing me, who has fathered two children of > being 'female.' In fact my picture is on my website for eveybody to > see. In fact I never in my live lived in 'Austria' as Danield C. > Caldwell also claims on this list." > > Brian, you say you have never "lived" in Austria, yet you signed two > of your emails posted on "IndianCivilization" as follows: > > Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna) > > Quoted from: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28578 > > Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna) > > Quoted from: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/28581 > > It would appear that you are SOMEHOW RELATED to the University of > Vienna (Austria). If not, why did you sign these two emails in that > fashion? > > When you sign emails with "Brian Muehlbach (University of Vienna)", > it must mean something, right? > > More could be said on this, but I will move on. > > Brian, there are ALSO other subscribers on this list under the > impression that you are Brigitte Muehlegger. > > For example, Bill Meredith wrote on Theos-Talk: > > "I think most of us know that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul. > The truth is that she acknowledged this several months ago on another > list [WET]." > > Quoted from: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7947 > > Brian, do you declare as FALSE Bill's statement that "she [Brigitte] > acknowledged this [that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul] several > months ago on another list [WesternEsotericTraditions]"? > > Even Paul Johnson recently wrote that: > > ". . . it's apparent to everyone else that they [Brian & Brigitte] > manage the same website, ergo..." Yes, "ergo" indeed. > > Brigitte was the webmaster of the site that you are NOW the webmaster. > > Furthermore, consider your email address listed on your web site: > > news@ brian-muehlbach.com > > The domain brian-muehlbach.com is apparently registered to Brigitte > Muehlegger. See http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois > > If you look up the WHOIS record on that site you find the following > info (I give only the first eleven lines of info): > > Domain Name.......... brian-muehlbach.com > Creation Date........ 2002-08-10 > Registration Date.... 2002-08-10 > Expiry Date.......... 2003-08-10 > Organisation Name.... Brigitte Muehlegger > Organisation Address. Auhofstrasse 168/12 > Organisation Address. > Organisation Address. Vienna > Organisation Address. 1130 > Organisation Address. A > Organisation Address. AUSTRIA > > If you are not Brigitte, then it is fairly obvious [from a historical > research perspective if not from a commonsense point of view] that > you know and "work" with Brigitte in some capacity. Do you deny that > you know Brigitte Muehlegger? > > Also Brian, remember that even you wrote not too long ago: > > "Fact is my name is Brian, but never mind on-line you can call me > anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne, > whatever." > > Therefore, if some of us choose to still call you Brigitte, then > don't we have YOUR BLESSINGS to do just that because you > wrote "...never mind on-line you can call me ANYTHING YOU WANT..."? > caps added. > > Enough said on this subject. > > Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 24 08:36:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 19827 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:36:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian's unfortunate misunderstanding of Coleman's plagiarism charge against HPB Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6837 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian's unfortunate misunderstanding of Coleman's plagiarism charge against HPB Dear Brian, Apparently in response to part of what I said in the following posting: "Brian's Argument concerning HPB's comments on "Aryans" in ISIS UNVEILED" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8827 you replied: "Forget Isis and the SD, where [sic] even Daniel C. [sic] Caldwell will admit it is full of quotes from other books without reference, meaning there is NO WAY we know if watever [sic] in there (any quotes from Isis or SD) posted on theos-talk, was ideed [sic] written by Blavatsky (lets stand any Mahatmas.., or was copied from another readely [sic] available book." Brian, again I repeat that you apparently do NOT understand William Emmette Coleman's contention about HPB's plagiarism. John Patrick Deveney, the Theosophical historian, in the latest issue (Oct. 2002) of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, writes about Coleman's claim against H.P. Blavatsky. Deveney writes: "His claim was that, while the learned QUOTATIONS from classical and other sources in H.P.B.'s books would lead the reader to believe she had read some 5,000 authors, in fact all of her references could be found in approximately 100 easily available, second-hand sources. This, Coleman, thundered, was plagiarism." Caps added (Theosophical History, Oct. 2002, p. 272.) Deveney's explanation here is indeed correct. And Coleman himself confirms it. To cite just one of many examples, Coleman writes: "By careful analysis I found that in compiling Isis about 100 books were used. About 1400 books are QUOTED from and REFERRED to in this work; but, from the 100 books which its author possessed, she copied everything in Isis taken from and relating to the other 1300. There are in Isis about 2100 QUOTATIONS from and references to books that were copied, at second-hand, from books other than the originals; and of this number only about 140 are credited to the books from which Madame Blavatsky copied them at second-hand." caps added. A CAREFUL reading of Coleman confirms Deveney's recent observations. Coleman, for example, writes: "Not a line of the QUOTATIONS in Isis, from the old-time mystics, Paracelsus, Van Helmont, Cardan, Robert Fludd, Philalethes, Gaffarel, and others, was taken from the original works; the whole of them were copied from other books containing scattered QUOTATIONS from those writers." caps added. To be more specific, Brian, if you find a QUOTATION from Paracelsus in ISIS UNVEILED Coleman is contending that HPB did NOT go to the original works of Paracelsus to get Parcelsus' words. Instead she found the quotation (i.e, the words of Paracelsus plus the quotation marks) in a secondary work where that author had given the quote from Paracelsus. HPB then took the Paracelsus QUOTATION found in this secondary work and incorporated the QUOTATION into her book or article. Many times she did not indicate that the quotation was taken from the secondary work. Coleman confirms this over and over. Witness another example from Coleman: "The same thing obtains with her QUOTATIONS from Josephus, Philo, and the Church Fathers, as Justin Martyr, Origen, Clement, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius, and all the rest. The same holds good with the classical authors, - Homer, Ovid, Horace, Virgil, Plato, Pliny, and many others. The QUOTATIONS from all these were copied at second-hand from some of the 100 books which were used by the compiler of Isis." caps added. Coleman says that HPB did the same when she was writing THE SECRET DOCTRINE and her other works. To repeat Deveney again: "This, Coleman thundered, was plagiarism." Brian, now let us explore something else very much related to the above. ISIS UNVEILED was published in 1877. So Madame Blavatsky's "plagiarism" [as Coleman called it]was done even prior to that date of publication. YET notice the following which happened in 1881. The scholar Deveney writes: " In the spring and summer of 1881, however, when he himself was accused of plagiarism [by W.H. Burr], Coleman's definition [of plagiarism] was RATHER DIFFERENT." !! caps added. Deveney quotes Coleman's rebuttal to W.H. Burr's charges of plagiarisms. Brian, please read very carefully Coleman's rebuttal words. Coleman wrote: "Even were I guilty of what he [Burr] charges, it would not be plagiarism. To quote extracts from other authors found in Mr. B [urr]'s work is not plagiarism but to use Mr. Burr's own language or ideas, without credit, is plagiarist. This I have not done, and Mr. B. knows it." A little latter in the same piece, Coleman makes a very SIGNIFICANT statement and admission: "It is ridiculously absurd to call it plagiarism to use quotations from other writers, taken second-hand. All writers do it more or less, Mr. Burr [himself] very largely, and no one else ever called it plagiarism before." Coleman's 1881 statements are given in Deveney's article. I should point out here that by Coleman's 1881 STANDARD HPB was NOT guilty of plagiarism in her 1877 work ISIS. His 1881 standard was apparently made in defending himself against the charge of plagiarism. It was only in later years that Coleman apparently changed his definition of plagiarism and started "thundering" the charge against HPB! Another point. Brian, there are apparently a few misunderstandings on your part contained in what you wrote below: "Forget Isis and the SD, where [sic] even Daniel C. [sic] Caldwell will admit it is full of quotes from other books without reference, meaning there is NO WAY we know if watever [sic] in there (any quotes from Isis or SD) posted on theos-talk, was ideed [sic] written by Blavatsky (lets stand any Mahatmas.., or was copied from another readely [sic] available book." Brian, you apparently contend there is "NO WAY" to know if the extracts I quoted from ISIS UNVEILED were indeed "written by Blavatsky" OR was "copied from another readely [sic] available book." First, I ask you and other interested readers to refresh your memory of what I quoted from HPB in ISIS on the aryan subject. See the relevant extracts in this Theos-World posting: "HP Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED on the word 'Aryan' and the 'Aryans'" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8742 NO WAY, you say? But there is A WAY to know! Coleman has given an exhaustive list of the "readily available books" he said HPB used in ISIS. You and anyone else can therefore go and compare those sources with the extracts from ISIS. So there is A WAY. Much more could be said about what you have written on this specific subject, but I will wait until you address in a "serious" and "scholarly" fashion the above points. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From eldon@theosophy.com Sun Nov 24 09:21:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:21:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 53859 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:21:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:21:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:21:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 17:21:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:21:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: time for changes Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 238 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Originating-IP: 66.27.176.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker We're down one more subscriber. I've just had to remove Brigitte. Anyone with ideas or suggestions about getting the list back on track should write me directly and I'll be reviewing things a little later in the morning. -- listowner From msisson@zaz.com.br Sun Nov 24 09:28:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:28:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 79409 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:28:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:28:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ivoti.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:28:47 -0000 Received: from una.terra.com.br (una.terra.com.br [200.176.3.32]) by ivoti.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD67408414 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:28:46 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by una.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335302F0076 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:28:46 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <010d01c293df$39b134e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <3DE05789.4CEFBBED@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:30:46 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 > Just want to comment on the various comments about Paul Johnson posting > under the Bri***** or Go-Go Swami aliases. Well, I do not know Brigitte or Paul personally, but I had personal correspondence with bothof them, and I am sure they are completely separated persons. Anyway, all this discussion seems to me a waste of time. If someone wants to create a personage, what's the matter? Marina From llkingston2@juno.com Sun Nov 24 09:40:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:40:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 22801 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:40:08 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUMp4Z9au7rxFfu5rlDCpO9QA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HJD876YE; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:40:03 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:30:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: <20021124.123009.-832975.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-11,13-31 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 All dogs descend from a common pair of parents also, yet have been bred into various breeds which are isolated to keep the breed "pure." As humans spread over the earth, several racial and tribal groups emerged, in part due to the relative isolation of the time. My comments were to those of certain types who would argue for "racial purity" when due to the migrations of the past have become a joke. Have you read THE SEVEN DAUGHTERS OF EVE? More interesting comment on the subject of DNA tracing. You are right of course in the commonality all all current Homo Sapiens. Larry On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:08:04 -0500 Bart Lidofsky writes: > Larry F Kolts wrote: > > No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. > > ALL blood lines are pure. > > All our physical (physically) descendents of a couple of > Africans, > according to the DNA record. Therefor > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 24 09:42:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 7602 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:42:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian's latest posting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3180 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Brian, You write: "University of Vienna that is obviously where my sever is as you pointed out by yourself.msome people have as server yahoo yet might live in africa or in Asia not the US were the yahoo server is, you know that verry well as you reun more then one website yourself. Do you live in the actual place where your server is ??? Millions of people worldwide don't !" So Brian are you telling us that I too could get a website on the SAME server as your website is located? Are you telling us that you don't have to be affiliated with the University of Vienna to have a website on that server? Compare http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html with http://mailbox.univie.ac.at Gee, I could put up a mirror site of Blavatsky Archives. That way our friend from Germany couldn't say the University of Vienna is anti- Blavatsky, etc. :) If I got such a site, are you telling me that I could even start signing my emails: Daniel Caldwell (University of Vienna) Maybe Eldon Tucker could put up a Theosophy website on the same server that your website is on. John DeSantis could put up a mirror site of his, also. And .... Brian, can you tell me who I should contact to request a website on the same server [University of Vienna server?] that you are on? Also how much do they charge to host and maintain a site like yours? Brian, you also write: "In any case this is well known yet you kept insisting I am a female in spite of the fact the I am not Brigitte Muehlegger. So I must considdder you a very very strange queer if nor worse then that." Oh, my! what a statement! :) But I came to my conclusion based in part because of what Bill Meredith had stated. Bill doesn't have an ax to grind, does he? And Brian, why blame me? According to what Bill wrote, you should blame Brigitte! Remember Bill wrote: ". . . she [Brigitte] acknowledged this [that Brian and Brigitte are the same soul] several months ago on another list [WesternEsotericTraditions]" I hope you wouldn't call her such names! Brian, you also write: "Do place the records of the courtprocedure where people of youir above misjudgement caliber where defending the molestating behaviour of Charles Leadbeater in court. Place the proceedings on line if you are honest and qwe can all discuss them." Well, since I won't be around much longer for some time, I suggest that you put the records online. Please do that. And where did you get the idea that I would defend Charles Leadbeater? One of my favorite books is Gregory Tillett's biography of Leadbeater. "THE ELDER BROTHER: A Biography Of Charles Webster Leadbeater" can be purchased from Point Loma Publications. See: http://www.wisdomtraditions.com/PLPCat9_1.html I would urge every subscriber on Theos-Talk to purchase a copy of Tillett's biography of Leadbeater and carefully read and study it. One final thought. Brian, from what you've written in your latest email, I take it that you didn't really mean what you wrote some time back: ". . . never mind on-line you can call me anything you want, John or Max, or Brenda or Fritz or Joanne, whatever." Daniel From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 09:50:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:50:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 18233 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:50:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:50:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:50:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 17:50:58 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:50:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theosophical miracle stories: a suggestion for categorization Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2896 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.246.128.241 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs After all the discussion there seems to remain considerable confusion about the matter of evaluating the Theosophical miracle stories. I have thought about this at some lenth and would like to propose the following categorization system. Notice that of seven categories, two are probably evidence of unusual phenomena, one is ambiguous and non evidential, and four can be reasonably discounted. Interestingly from a Theosophical point of view, it turns out there are SEVEN categories. Category I: This would include stories such as the Ootan Liatto story in which internal evidence makes it clear the "miracle" was actually a drug experience. Olcott's experience of walking into a cloud of smoke and seeing Blavatsky hold up multiple pencils when he knew there was only one there falls into this category, as do several other stories. Category II: Instances in which a hostile witness claims to have actually caught Blavatsky in the act of imposture or to have been recruited for an act of imposture, The testimonies of Emma Coulomh and others fall into this category. Category III: Stories in which the witness is known to have been a pathological liar. Every account by "W.C." Leadbeater falls into this category as Dr. Tillett has shown. Category IV: Stories in which the Theosophists themselves admit the phenomenon was a leg pull at best. Thus when Judge visited Adyar Hartmann came up behind him and threw a mahatma letter over his shoulder to show how letters could be "precipitated." The letters themselves admit most of them were delivered by non phenomenal means. Category V: Stories in which there is no testimony weakening the miraculous claim and which may in fact be miraculous, but which could easily have been done by any ten year old with a magic set. In these cases one can only judge the miraculous or non miraculous nature of the story based on prejudice. Unbiased observers would have to consider the question open. Most of the Theosophical miracle stories fall into this category. Category VI: Stories which, if accurately reported, can hardly be explained except by occult agency. The Shannon letter, the Gephard letter, the buried teacups, and a few other phenomena fall into this category. These and the next category are the only ones worthy of serious consideration as candidates for proof of "occult" power. Category VII: Miracles which consisted of subjective phenomena. Thus Blavatsky claimed to have read newspapers that had not yet arrived, she and others claimed to have experienced "astral projection," etc. These stories are credible because the performers claimed no more than has been claimed by others before and since. However we explain it, people do have unusual experiences. Anyone can post or cross post this, or publish this in print or on a web site, but leave my name off unless you ask. From wry1111@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 09:56:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 17:56:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 56307 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 17:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 17:56:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 17:56:06 -0000 Received: from 1cust148.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.148] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G0zF-0001I9-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: <003301c293e3$04252e40$94d30b3f@idapingala> To: Subject: Apology and Retraction Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:57:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sorry that I came to the erroneous conclusion that K, Paul Johnson is Brian, Brigitte Muehler, Goswami, his daughter and maybe even other personages. Paul has personally contacted me by email and he has convinced me of my error. I apologize to members of this list and especially to Paul, and it is o.k. with me if the owner of this list removes these postings including even this one from the archives. In the future I will use more foresight before I post material. Sincerely, Wry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From redrosarian@yahoo.com Sun Nov 24 11:00:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: redrosarian@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:00:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 10717 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:00:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:00:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:00:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 19:00:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:00:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Brian's latest posting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 307 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "M N S" X-Originating-IP: 63.230.69.55 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94777223 X-Yahoo-Profile: redrosarian See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theosofie-groep/message/1933 where Brian uses Brigitte's old alias. Is this person a pathological liar? It's clear to me who he and she is. There is no Brian Muehlbach registered as a professor, member of the faculty, or student at the University of Vienna. Monica From wry1111@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 11:02:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:02:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 8940 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:02:53 -0000 Received: from 1cust148.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.148] helo=idapingala) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G21n-0005aa-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:02:47 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c293ec$55b6bf40$94d30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <001d01c2932f$7aff68a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <001b01c2938f$e010d0c0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> <033901c293bb$8cd482e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:04:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. I have read your posting again . It is very beautiful and heart-felt, and yes, there are some major similarities between our messages, but I am trying to convey something else that is about structure, which I consider to be a key point. Some material, no matter how well-intended, goes in one ear and out the other. It has no grp (grip). About God and ice-cream. If it is desire 4 this, they are of the same. I am a monotheist, not a pagan, even though I am a Mahayana Buddhist and do not believe in "God" or a primal cause. Conversely, someone who believes in "God" can be a pagan (which is o.k. and it can be very beautiful. I know, as I used to be one when I was very young). It all depends upon how material is distributed. Maybe I will respond in more detail to your message sometime in the future. Feel free to write again if you have any more questions. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 5:15 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > Hi Wry and all of you, > > Thanks for answering Wry. > You seem to be allright. > The below answer is meant in a friendly manner. > > No thoughts cannot really figure out very much, - they often make trouble, > and disagree with your views. > I suggest you try Atma or God or ParaBrahman - and not Ice cream. Smile. > > Wry wrote: > "The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn > In > order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which > cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note > God, one has to either put God in a box,...." (and so on...) > My Sufilight answer: > Yes. Wry, and that was what my previous email on Love, God, Maya, and > Ignorance stated. > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > Try reading it again. > > Wry wrote: > "The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to God. > This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's house > is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of > pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream." > My Sufilight answer: > I don't get that. What is wrong with - seeking God or to think God, breathe > God, live with - and - in God ? > Love and God are NOT synonymous with ice cream ! Come on Wry... That must be > a wrong assumption. > Ice cream is something you eat, and it is not really healthy. > (You could be right - but then Wry also could be called an Adept or the > like - just like that... And I don't think so yet Wry. Just me trying to > make a point. >:-) An honest smile.) > With all these chemicals in Ice creams today, which gives people allergic > reactions etc..., that must be stepping on the line, to have such a view. > >:-) (An honest smile.) > But, but: The house - the children and the fire --- and even your ice > cream - is in essence God. I.e. in essence. That was also what my statement > in the previous email on Love, God, Maya, and Ignorance stated. > Try reading it again. > > > Wry wrote: > "What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by > which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such a > way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected image, > which is a form of spiritual incest." > > My Sufilight answer: > "Incest" is, I think, not the proper word Wry, as this is a different issue. > H. P. Blavatsky has said something on - the mentioned "oppositions " in the > above - in The Secret Doctrine. > Something like: The Adwaita Sage say: Everthing is God - ParaBrahman. The > Buddhist says: There is no God. > And Blavatsky say, that both are right, it is just a question about how one > views the world. > > In the Bhagavad Gita, which is stated as the Essence of the Upanishads, one > gets, TWO paths: > "1. Those devotees who, always devout, thus > contemplate You (as the attribut ParaBrahm), and those also who > (contemplate) > the Impersihable, the Unmanifest (as Not this, Not that), - which > of them are better versed in Yoga ? > 2. Those who, fixing their thought on Me, (The thought of ParaBrahma) > contemplate Me (The thought of ParaBrahm), > always devout, endued with sumpreme faith, > those in my opinion are the best > Yogins." > 3.-4. Those who ever contemplate the > Imperishable, the Indefinable, the Unmanifest, the > Omnipresent, and the Unthinkable, the Unchangeable, > the Immutable, the Eternal - having restrained > all the senses, always equanimous, intent > on the welfare of all beings, - they reach Myself (ParaBrahma). > 5. Greater is their trouble whose thoughts > are set on the Unmanifest; for the Goal, the > Unmanifest, is very hard for the embodied to reach." > (from a private translation of The Bhagavad Gita) > > Well, I am maybe just stupid... > > A question to Wry and all readers: > How do one get rid of the Nuclear Weapons on this Planet ? > By not talking about them ? > > To all of you: Feel free to do your very best... > > > from > M. Suiflight with peace and love... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wry" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:02 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > Hi. I thought everyone would understand my message. Here is a paraphrase. > > Compare this to the original and see if this makes sense: Thought cannot > > figure things out, because it is only one function. To understand requires > a > > balance of thought, feeling and body, which form a sort of trinity. > > > > The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn > In > > order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which > > cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note > > God, one has to either put God in a box, which obliterates the concept of > > God, as God cannot be boxed, or else to obliterate oneself, in which case, > > God cannot be recognized or noted. Therefore this is an unreconcilible > > situation, but if something is OUTSIDE this situation, these two extremes > > can be polarized consciously in such a way that a third force is created. > In > > such a way, one consciously creates oneself out of a flexible firmanent by > > direct and exact imprint.This is the divine on earth in the manifestation > of > > creative love, which is symbolized by the anointing hand which represents > > the conscious and therefore transcendent ACT and the combination of > duality > > with creativity (two with three to make a five). > > > > The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to God. > > This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's > house > > is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of > > pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream. But to stay with the "lack" > > and not to move away from it is the beginning of a reversal of the > current, > > out of which is generated the creative act. And true creation is a > completed > > and yet continuously generative deed, the end event connected to the > > beginning by means of the brea-dth or the middle. This is BEING. > > > > What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by > > which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such > a > > way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected > image, > > which is a form of spiritual incest. This is not about talk, which, > > unfortunately, will not do the trick, but about using language in such a > way > > that talking becomes a sacred act and a doorway. It is not the subject of > > conversation that makes talk sacred, but the FORM of the consciously > omitted > > essentials, which cannot be described by language anyway, only > > cheapened.This omission, if structured in such a way that something which > > cannot be spoken is GIVEN, forms a sacred vowel. Thank you for asking me > > what you do not understand , and by doing so, helping me to understand > > better myself. Sincerely, Wry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > HI Wry and all of you, > > > > > > Please clarify that statement Wry. > > > I didn't get it. > > > > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight...being humble and all... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Wry" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM > > > Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete > > > > you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. > > > > It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes > > > > out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human > > > > hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk till > > > > death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is > > > > no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > > > > > > > > A view: > > > > > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" > > > > on the > > > > > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > > > > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > > > > > > > > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover the > > > > truth > > > > > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > > > > > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a clear, > > > > > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that > > > > mirror, God > > > > > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or > > > > individualised > > > > > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and > > > > to secure. > > > > > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is > > > > the > > > > > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as > > > > its > > > > > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different forms > > > > and > > > > > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one of > > > > the many > > > > > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of > > > > the One; > > > > > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into > > > > many. > > > > > But the One is ever One. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, Aum... > > > > > > > > > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > > > > > Everything has come from God. > > > > > There is nothing except God. > > > > > Nature is God's manifestation. > > > > > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > > > > > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > > > > > God is the immanent power in everything. > > > > > > > > > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship is > > > > > inter-dependent and inseparable. > > > > > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to its > > > > > understanding. > > > > > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, > > > > established. > > > > > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary objects - > > > > is a > > > > > manifestation of the ATMA. > > > > > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > > > > > What you see is ATMA. > > > > > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > > > > > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > > > > > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > > > > > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal Absolute. > > > > > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of > > > > God. > > > > > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency to > > > > > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our > > > > preferences > > > > > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue > > > > picture of > > > > > BRAHMAN. > > > > > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our > > > > reasoning > > > > > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, > > > > and on > > > > > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and deceives. > > > > > > > > > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > > > > > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the > > > > nature of > > > > > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom > > > > of Maya. > > > > > > > > > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya > > > > produces > > > > > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the > > > > Vidya that > > > > > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is > > > > destroyed > > > > > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both are > > > > > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > > > > > > > > > Love is our nature. > > > > > Love is all. > > > > > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > > > > > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > > > > > Live in Love. > > > > > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > > > > > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the contrary > > > > are > > > > > spouriuos and missing the mark. > > > > > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > > > > > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > > > > > Develop love by sharing it. > > > > > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > > > > > The end of knoeledge is Love. > > > > > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the > > > > heart is > > > > > true love. > > > > > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > > > > > > > > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > > > > > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > > > > > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > > > > > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > > > > > Love wins against all evils. > > > > > Love is patient when needed. > > > > > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > > > > > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, > > > > > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > > > > > > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > > > > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same > > > > sense > > > > > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > > > > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > > > > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > > > > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be > > > > > > pantheism." > > > > > > > > > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > > > > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But > > > > this > > > > > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > > > > > universality with the objective implication of being in existence. > > > > > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, > > > > whereas > > > > > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. > > > > > > 57 caps added. > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Nov 24 11:05:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 8192 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:05:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Let Us Not Forget Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 646 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Even though Brian has been removed from Theos-Talk [that is my understanding from Eldon's recent email], we should not forget that Brian did bring to our forum some important issues that Blavatsky and Theosophical students should ponder on. For example, the "race" issue and the use of the word "aryan" as given in the various quotes from the Mahatma Letters and in the Secret Doctrine need to be studied, discussed and understood. And I assume it was because of Brian that Goswami came to Theos- Talk. That is good, because Goswami brings up underlying issues that need to studied, discussed and understood by Theosophists. Daniel From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 11:36:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:36:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 49609 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:36:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:36:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:36:27 -0000 Received: from pool0545.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.228.35] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G2YD-0004Ai-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:36:18 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theosophical miracle stories: a suggestion for categorization Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:31:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 24th 2002 Dear Friends: Re: A catalog of "Phenomenal" events. I think this suggestion is a good one. The 7 categories seem appropriate, and if this is prepared and available, then we can refer to it if and when repeat "attacks" arise. In the meantime we can be adding to the list. Personally I object to the use of the word "MIRACLES." In a universe of LAW there are none. However, there may be actions and events, on the physical plane which are not explained by any laws of physical nature that we know of yet, or can yet examine. Reading through ISIS UNVEILED, the MAHATMA LETTERS, H P B's LETTERS TO A. P. Sinnett, CAVES AND JUNGLES OF HINDOSTAN, and other sources, as well as the older Theosophical journals ( such as THEOSOPHIST, PATH, LUCIFER, VAHAN, the THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, and more modern ones such as THEOSOPHY, the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, etc...) a fairly large list can be compiled. Mr. Michael Gomes helps us with many more instances in his bibliographical compilation of the documents relating to Theosophy for the last quarter of the 19th Century: THEOSOPHY IN THE NINETEENTH CENTURY (An Annotated Bibliography) Garland Publishing co., 1991 ----- Again I have been far more interested in seeking to understand the laws and reasons for "phenomena" than merely compiling (without explanation) the data of events. Here is a sample of what I consider to be valuable information on these matters for all of us to remember =================== PSYCHIC LAWS, FORCES, AND PHENOMENA The field of psychic forces, phenomena, and dynamics is a vast one. Such phenomena are seen and the forces exhibited every day in all lands, but until a few years ago very little attention was given to them by scientific persons, while a great deal of ridicule was heaped upon those who related the occurrences or averred belief in the psychic nature. Are there psychic forces, laws, and powers? If there are, then there must be the phenomena. And if all that is true, then in man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man. The genuine psychic -- or, as they are often called, magical -- phenomena done by the Eastern faquir or yogee are all performed by the use of natural forces and processes not even dreamed of as yet by the West. LEVITATION of the body in apparent defiance of gravitation is a thing to be done with ease when the process is completely mastered. It contravenes no law. Gravitation is only half of a law. The Oriental sage admits gravity, if one wishes to adopt the term; but the real term is attraction, the other half of the law being expressed by the word repulsion, and both being governed by the great laws of electrical force. Weight and stability depend on polarity, and when the polarity of an object is altered in respect to the earth immediately underneath it, then the object may rise. But as mere objects are devoid of the consciousness found in man, they cannot rise without certain other aids. The human body, however, will rise in the air unsupported, like a bird, when its polarity is thus changed. This change is brought about consciously by a certain system of breathing known to the Oriental; it may be induced also by aid from certain natural forces spoken of later, in the cases of those who without knowing the law perform the phenomena, as with the saints of the Roman Catholic Church. A third great law which enters into many of the phenomena of the East and West is that of COHESION. The power of Cohesion is a distinct power of itself, and not a result as is supposed. This law and its action must be known if certain phenomena are to be brought about, as, for instance, what the writer has seen, the passing of one solid iron ring through another, or a stone through a solid wall. Hence another force is used which can only be called Dispersion. Cohesion is the determinating force, for, the moment the dispersing force is withdrawn, the cohesive force restores the particles to their original position. Following this out the Adept in such great dynamics is able to DISPERSE the atoms of an object -- excluding always the human body -- to such a distance from each other as to render the object invisible, and then can send them along a current formed in the ether to any distance on the earth. At the desired point the dispersing force is withdrawn, when immediately cohesion reasserts itself and the object reappears intact. This may sound like fiction, but being known to the Lodge and its disciples as an actual fact, it is equally certain that Science will sooner or later admit the proposition. The instruments are in the body and brain of man. In the view of the Lodge "the human brain is an exhaustless generator of force," and a complete knowledge of the inner chemical and dynamic laws of Nature, together with a trained mind, give the possessor the power to operate the laws to which I have referred. This will be man's possession in the future, and would be his today were it not for blind dogmatism, selfishness, and materialistic unbelief. Using the same powers, the trained Adept can produce before the eye, OBJECTIVE TO THE TOUCH, material which was not visible before, and in any desired shape. This would be called creation by the vulgar, but it is simply evolution in your very presence. Matter is held suspended in the air about us. Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, and what the Adept does is to select any desired form, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The distinct -- photographically and sharply definite -- image of every line of every letter or picture is formed in the mind, and then out of the air is drawn the pigment to fall within the limits laid down by the brain, "the exhaustless generator of force and form." This, then, naturally leads to the proposition that the human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind. In the ordinary average human person it has not enough training or force to be more than a sort of dream, but it may be trained. When trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop. Arrived at that stage it makes a matrix in the Astral substance through which effects objectively will flow. It is the greatest power, after Will, in the human assemblage of complicated instruments. The modern Western definition of Imagination is incomplete and wide of the mark. It is chiefly used to designate fancy or misconception and at all times stands for unreality. It is impossible to get another term as good because one of the powers of the trained Imagination is that of making an image. The word is derived from those signifying the formation or reflection of an image. This faculty used, or rather suffered to act, in an unregulated mode has given the West no other idea than that covered by "fancy." So far as that goes it is right but it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached causes the Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form which may be then used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold of sand for the molten iron. It is therefore the King faculty, inasmuch as the Will cannot do its work if the Imagination be at all weak or untrained. For instance, if the person desiring to precipitate from the air wavers in the least with the image made in the Astral substance, the pigment will fall upon the paper in a correspondingly wavering and diffused manner. To COMMUNICATE WITH ANOTHER MIND at any distance the Adept attunes all the molecules of the brain and all the thoughts of the mind so as to vibrate in unison with the mind to be affected, and that other mind and brain have also to be either voluntarily thrown into the same unison or fall into it voluntarily. So though the Adept be at Bombay and his friend in New York, the distance is no obstacle, as the inner senses are not dependent on an ear, but may feel and see the thoughts and images in the mind of the other person. And when it is desired to look into the mind and catch the thoughts of another and the pictures all around him of all he has thought and looked at, the Adept's inner sight and hearing are directed to the mind to be seen, when at once all is visible. But, as said before, only a rogue would do this, and the Adepts do not do it except in strictly authorized cases. The modern man sees no misdemeanor in looking into the secrets of another by means of this power, but the Adepts say it is an invasion of the rights of the other person. No man has the right, even when he has the power in his hand, to enter into the mind of another and pick out its secrets. This is the law of the Lodge to all who seek, and if one sees that he is about to discover the secrets of another he must at once withdraw and proceed no further. If he proceeds his power is taken from him in the case of a disciple; in the case of any other person he must take the consequence of this sort of burglary. For Nature has her laws and her policemen, and if we commit felonies in the Astral world the great Law and the guardians of it, for which no bribery is possible, will execute the penalty, no matter how long we wait, even if it be for ten thousand years. Here is another safeguard for ethics and morals. But until men admit this system of philosophy, they will not deem it wrong to commit felonies in fields where their weak human law has no effect, but at the same time by thus refusing the philosophy they will put off the day when all may have these great powers for the use of all. Among phenomena useful to notice are those consisting of the MOVING OF OBJECTS without physical contact. This may be done, and in more than one way. The first is to extrude from the physical body the Astral hand and arm, and with those grasp the object to be moved. This may be accomplished at a distance of as much as ten feet from the person. I only refer to the properties of the Astral substance and members. This will serve to some extent to explain several of the phenomena of mediums.. The second method is to use the ELEMENTALS. They have the power when directed by the inner man to carry objects by changing the polarity, and then we see, as with the fakirs of India and some mediums in America, small objects moving apparently unsupported. These elemental entities are used when things are brought from longer distances than the length to which the Astral members may be stretched. It is no argument against this that mediums do not know they do so. Clairvoyance, clairaudience, and second-sight are all related very closely. Every exercise of any one of them draws in at the same time both of the others. They are but variations of one power. Sound is one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Astral sphere, and as light goes with sound, sight obtains simultaneously with hearing. To see an image with the Astral senses means that at the same time there is a sound, and to hear the latter infers the presence of a related image in Astral substance. It is perfectly well known to the true student of occultism that every sound produces instantaneously an image, and this, so long known in the Orient, has lately been demonstrated in the West in the production to the eye of sound pictures on a stretched tympanum. In the Astral Light are pictures of all things whatsoever that happened to any person, and as well also pictures of those events to come the causes for which are sufficiently well marked and made. If the causes are yet indefinite, so will be the images of the future. But for the mass of events for several years to come all the producing and efficient causes are always laid down with enough definiteness to permit the seer to see them in advance as if present. By means of these pictures, seen with the inner senses, all clairvoyants exercise their strange faculty. Yet it is a faculty common to all men, though in the majority but slightly developed; but occultism asserts that were it not for the germ of this power slightly active in every one no man could convey to another any idea whatsoever. In clairvoyance the pictures in the Astral Light pass before the inner vision and are reflected into the physical eye from within. They then appear objectively to the seer. If they are of past events or those to come, the picture only is seen; if of events actually then occurring, the scene is perceived through the Astral Light by the inner sense. The distinguishing difference between ordinary and clairvoyant vision is, then, that in clairvoyance with waking sight the vibration is communicated to the brain first, from which it is transmitted to the physical eye, where it sets up an image upon the retina, just as the revolving cylinder of the phonograph causes the mouthpiece to vibrate exactly as the voice had vibrated when thrown into the receiver. In ordinary eye vision the vibrations are given to the eye first and then transmitted to the brain. Images and sounds are both caused by vibrations, and hence any sound once made is preserved in the Astral Light from whence the inner sense can take it and from within transmit it to the brain, from which it reaches the physical ear. So in clairaudience at a distance the hearer does not hear with the ear, but with the center of hearing in the Astral body. Second-sight is a combination of clairaudience and clairvoyance or not, just as the particular case is, and the frequency with which future events are seen by the second-sight seer adds an element of prophecy. The highest order of clairvoyance -- that of spiritual vision -- is very rare. The usual clairvoyant deals only with the ordinary aspects and strata of the Astral matter. Spiritual sight comes only to those who are pure, devoted, and firm. It may be attained by special development of the particular organ in the body through which alone such sight is possible, and only after discipline, long training, and the highest altruism. The pure-minded and the brave can deal with the future and the present far better than any clairvoyant. But as the existence of these two powers proves the presence in us of the inner senses and of the necessary medium -- the Astral Light Dreams are sometimes the result of brain action automatically proceeding, and are also produced by the transmission into the brain by the real inner person of those scenes or ideas high or low which that real person has seen while the body slept. They are then strained into the brain as if floating on the soul as it sinks into the body. These dreams may be of use, but generally the resumption of bodily activity destroys the meaning, perverts the image, and reduces all to confusion. But the great fact of all dreaming is that some one perceives and feels therein, and this is one of the arguments for the inner person's existence. In sleep the inner man communes with higher intelligences, and sometimes succeeds in impressing the brain with what is gained, either a high idea or a prophetic vision, or else fails in consequence of the resistance of brain fiber. Apparitions and doubles are of two general classes. The one, astral shells or images from the astral world, either actually visible to the eye or the result of vibration within thrown out to the eye and thus making the person think he sees an objective form without. The other, the astral body of living persons and carrying full consciousness or only partially so endowed. Laborious attempts by Psychical Research Societies to prove apparitions without knowing these laws really prove nothing, for out of twenty admitted cases nineteen may be the objectivization of the image impressed on the brain. But that apparitions have been seen there is no doubt. Apparitions of those just dead may be either pictures made objective as described, or the Astral Body -- called Kama Rupa at this stage -- of the deceased. And as the dying thoughts and forces released from the body are very strong, we have more accounts of such apparitions than of any other class. The Adept may send out his apparition, which, however, consists of his conscious and trained astral body endowed with all his intelligence and not wholly detached from his physical frame. Theosophy does not deny nor ignore the physical laws discovered by science. It admits all such as are proven, but it asserts the existence of others which modify the action of those we ordinarily know. Behind all the visible phenomena is the occult cosmos with its ideal machinery; that occult cosmos can only be fully understood by means of the inner senses which pertain to it; those senses will not be easily developed if their existence is denied. Brain and mind acting together have the power to evolve forms, first as astral ones in astral substance, and later as visible ones by accretions of the matter on this plane. Objectivity depends largely on perception, and perception may be affected by inner stimuli. Hence a witness may either see an object which actually exists as such without, or may be made to see one by internal stimulus. This gives us three modes of sight: (a) with the eye by means of light from an object, (b) with the inner senses by means of the Astral Light, and (c) by stimulus from within which causes the eye to report to the brain, thus throwing the inner image without. The phenomena of the other senses may be tabulated in the same manner. The Astral substance being the register of all thoughts, sounds, pictures, and other vibrations, and the inner man being a complete person able to act with or without co-ordination with the physical, all the phenomena of hypnotism, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, and the rest of those which are not consciously performed may be explained. In the Astral substance are all sounds and pictures, and in the Astral man remain impressions of every event, however remote or insignificant; these acting together produce the phenomena which seem so strange to those who deny or are unaware of the postulates of occultism. Our departed do not see us here. They are relieved from the terrible pang such a sight would inflict. Once in a while a pure-minded, unpaid medium may ascend in trance to the state in which a deceased soul is, and may remember some of what was there heard; but this is rare. At the moment of death the soul may speak to some friend on earth before the door is finally shut. >From all this and much more that could be adduced, the man of materialistic science is fortified in his ridicule, but the theosophist has to conclude that the entities, if there be any communicating, are not human spirits, and that the explanations are to be found in some other theories. Materialization of a form out of the air, independent of the medium's physical body, is a fact. But it is not a spirit. As was very well said by one of the "spirits", one way to produce this phenomenon is by the accretion of electrical and magnetic particles into one mass upon which matter is aggregated and an image reflected out of the Astral sphere. This is the whole of it. The second method is by the use of the Astral body of the living medium. In this case the Astral form exudes from the side of the medium, gradually collects upon itself particles extracted from the air and the bodies of the sitters present, until at last it becomes visible. Sometimes it will resemble the medium; at others it bears a different appearance. In almost every instance dimness of light is requisite because a high light would disturb the Astral substance in a violent manner and render the projection difficult. Some so-called materializations are hollow mockeries, as they are but flat plates of electrical and magnetic substance on which pictures from the Astral Light are reflected. These seem to be the faces of the dead, but they are simply pictured illusions. To understand the psychic phenomena found in the history of "spiritualism" it is necessary to know and admit the following: I. The complete heredity of man astrally, spiritually, and psychically, as a being who knows, reasons, feels, and acts through the body, the Astral body, and the soul. II. The nature of the mind, its operation, its powers; the nature and power of imagination; the duration and effect of impressions. Most important in this is the persistence of the slightest impression as well as the deepest; that every impression produces a picture in the individual aura; and that by means of this a connection is established between the auras of friends and relatives old, new, near, distant, and remote in degree: this would give a wide range of possible sight to a clairvoyant. III. The nature, extent, function, and power of man's inner Astral organs and faculties included in the terms Astral body and Kama. That these are not hindered from action by trance or sleep, but are increased in the medium when entranced; at the same time their action is not free, but governed by the mass chord of thought among the sitters, or by a predominating will, or by the presiding devil behind the scenes; if a sceptical scientific investigator be present, his mental attitude may totally inhibit the action of the medium's powers by what we might call a freezing process which no English terms will adequately describe. IV. The fate of the real man after death, his state, power, activity there, and his relation, if any, to those left behind him here. V. That the intermediary between mind and body -- the Astral body -- is thrown off at death and left in the Astral light to fade away; and that the real man goes to Devachan. VI. The existence, nature, power, and function of the Astral light and its place as a register in Nature. That it contains, retains, and reflects pictures of each and every thing that happened to anyone, and also every thought; that it permeates the globe and the atmosphere around it; that the transmission of vibration through it is practically instantaneous, since the rate is much quicker than that of electricity as now known. VII. The existence in the Astral light of beings not using bodies like ours, but not human in their nature, having powers, faculties, and a sort of consciousness of their own; these include the elemental forces or nature sprites divided into many degrees, and which have to do with every operation of Nature and every motion of the mind of man. That these elementals act at seances automatically in their various departments, one class presenting pictures, another producing sounds, and others depolarizing objects for the purposes of apportation. Acting with them in this Astral sphere are the soulless men who live in it. To these are to be ascribed the phenomenon, among others, of the "independent voice," always sounding like a voice in a barrel just because it is made in a vacuum which is absolutely necessary for an entity so far removed from spirit. The peculiar timbre of this sort of voice has not been noticed by the spiritualists as important, but it is extremely significant in the view of occultism. VIII. The existence and operation of occult laws and forces in nature which may be used to produce phenomenal results on this plane; that these laws and forces may be put into operation by the subconscious man and by the elementals either consciously or unconsciously, and that many of these occult operations are automatic in the same way as is the freezing of water under intense cold or the melting of ice under heat. IX. That the Astral body of the medium, partaking of the nature of the Astral substance, may be extended from the physical body, may act outside of the latter, and may also extrude at times any portion of itself such as hand, arm, or leg and thereby move objects, indite letters, produce touches on the body, and so on ad infinitum. And that the Astral body of any person may be made to feel sensation, which, being transmitted to the brain, causes the person to think he is touched on the outside or has heard a sound. Mediumship is full of dangers because the Astral part of the man is now only normal in action when joined to the body. To become a medium means that you have to become disorganized physiologically and in the nervous system, because through the latter is the connection between the two worlds. The moment the door is opened all the unknown forces rush in, and as the grosser part of nature is nearest to us it is that part which affects us most; the lower nature is also first affected and inflamed because the forces used are from that part of us. We are then at the mercy of the vile thoughts of all men, and subject to the influence of the shells in Kama Loka. If to this be added the taking of money for the practice of mediumship, an additional danger is at hand, for the things of the spirit and those relating to the Astral world must not be sold. This is the great disease of American spiritualism which has debased and degraded its whole history. To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the civilization of the present day is selfish to the last degree and built on the personal element, the rules for the development of these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department is to be indulged in; and their condemnation of the wholesale development of mediums is supported by the history of spiritualism, which is one long story of the ruin of mediums in every direction. Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which without a thought for the true nature of man indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life, put into disgraceful attitudes, and made to do things for the satisfaction of the investigators which would never be done by men and women in their normal state. The Lodge of the Masters does not care for Science unless it aims to better man's state morally as well as physically, and no aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the strange and seductive phenomena possible for the inner powers of man. [Extracted and condensed from: Judge -- the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ] DTB ============================== -----Original Message----- From: S Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:51 AM To: Subject: Theosophical miracle stories: a suggestion for categorization After all the discussion there seems to remain considerable confusion about the matter of evaluating the Theosophical miracle stories. I have thought about this at some length and would like to propose the following categorization system. Notice that of seven categories, two are probably evidence of unusual phenomena, one is ambiguous and non evidential, and four can be reasonably discounted. Interestingly from a Theosophical point of view, it turns out there are SEVEN categories. Category I: This would include stories such as the Ootan Liatto story in which internal evidence makes it clear the "miracle" was actually a drug experience. Olcott's experience of walking into a cloud of smoke and seeing Blavatsky hold up multiple pencils when he knew there was only one there falls into this category, as do several other stories. Category II: Instances in which a hostile witness claims to have actually caught Blavatsky in the act of imposture or to have been recruited for an act of imposture, The testimonies of Emma Coulomb and others fall into this category. Category III: Stories in which the witness is known to have been a pathological liar. Every account by "W.C." Leadbeater falls into this category as Dr. Tillett has shown. Category IV: Stories in which the Theosophists themselves admit the phenomenon was a leg pull at best. Thus when Judge visited Adyar Hartmann came up behind him and threw a mahatma letter over his shoulder to show how letters could be "precipitated." The letters themselves admit most of them were delivered by non phenomenal means. Category V: Stories in which there is no testimony weakening the miraculous claim and which may in fact be miraculous, but which could easily have been done by any ten year old with a magic set. In these cases one can only judge the miraculous or non miraculous nature of the story based on prejudice. Unbiased observers would have to consider the question open. Most of the Theosophical miracle stories fall into this category. Category VI: Stories which, if accurately reported, can hardly be explained except by occult agency. The Shannon letter, the Gerhard letter, the buried teacups, and a few other phenomena fall into this category. These and the next category are the only ones worthy of serious consideration as candidates for proof of "occult" power. Category VII: Miracles which consisted of subjective phenomena. Thus Blavatsky claimed to have read newspapers that had not yet arrived, she and others claimed to have experienced "astral projection," etc. These stories are credible because the performers claimed no more than has been claimed by others before and since. However we explain it, people do have unusual experiences. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 24 11:36:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:36:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 51663 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:36:54 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DEFA9480072 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:36:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c293f0$12d861c0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <001d01c2932f$7aff68a0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <001b01c2938f$e010d0c0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> <033901c293bb$8cd482e0$ce92a483@opasia.dk> <000601c293ec$55b6bf40$94d30b3f@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:31:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Wry and all of you, Thanks Wry. Wry wrote: "Some material, no matter how well-intended, goes in one ear > and out the other. It has no grp (grip)." My Sufilight answer: But Wry, then the message must have been for another audience. If one person don't like the email, then maybe 20 others (maybe friends) are standing in line. Sometimes the audience is small. Sometimes it is big. And there is always a brain between the ears, a sort of filter - do you dig that ?, and that even if some don't think they have one. Ignorance makes people in doubt about what to write, say or do. Wisdom and knowledge are never in doubt. >:-) Smile. Even some books are not for everyone to read. Some people ought really not to read The Secret Doctrine, because they either can't understand it - or it will lead them and their Souls needs periodically away from wisdom and God - ParaBrahman. This is maybe a surprise to some. Maybe the book could help them later on. Or else there will be another book or another experience. Sometimes those who think they don't belong to the audience - they on the contrary infact do so. from M. Suflight with...very few readers...interested in learning how to learn...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "wry" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > Hi. I have read your posting again . It is very beautiful and heart-felt, > and yes, there are some major similarities between our messages, but I am > trying to convey something else that is about structure, which I consider to > be a key point. Some material, no matter how well-intended, goes in one ear > and out the other. It has no grp (grip). > > About God and ice-cream. If it is desire 4 this, they are of the same. I am > a monotheist, not a pagan, even though I am a Mahayana Buddhist and do not > believe in "God" or a primal cause. Conversely, someone who believes in > "God" can be a pagan (which is o.k. and it can be very beautiful. I know, as > I used to be one when I was very young). It all depends upon how material > is distributed. Maybe I will respond in more detail to your message sometime > in the future. Feel free to write again if you have any more questions. > Sincerely, Wry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 5:15 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > Hi Wry and all of you, > > > > Thanks for answering Wry. > > You seem to be allright. > > The below answer is meant in a friendly manner. > > > > No thoughts cannot really figure out very much, - they often make trouble, > > and disagree with your views. > > I suggest you try Atma or God or ParaBrahman - and not Ice cream. Smile. > > > > Wry wrote: > > "The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn > > In > > order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which > > cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to note > > God, one has to either put God in a box,...." (and so on...) > > My Sufilight answer: > > Yes. Wry, and that was what my previous email on Love, God, Maya, and > > Ignorance stated. > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > Try reading it again. > > > > Wry wrote: > > "The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to > God. > > This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's > house > > is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of > > pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream." > > My Sufilight answer: > > I don't get that. What is wrong with - seeking God or to think God, > breathe > > God, live with - and - in God ? > > Love and God are NOT synonymous with ice cream ! Come on Wry... That must > be > > a wrong assumption. > > Ice cream is something you eat, and it is not really healthy. > > (You could be right - but then Wry also could be called an Adept or the > > like - just like that... And I don't think so yet Wry. Just me trying to > > make a point. >:-) An honest smile.) > > With all these chemicals in Ice creams today, which gives people allergic > > reactions etc..., that must be stepping on the line, to have such a view. > > >:-) (An honest smile.) > > But, but: The house - the children and the fire --- and even your ice > > cream - is in essence God. I.e. in essence. That was also what my > statement > > in the previous email on Love, God, Maya, and Ignorance stated. > > Try reading it again. > > > > > > Wry wrote: > > "What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by > > which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in such > a > > way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected > image, > > which is a form of spiritual incest." > > > > My Sufilight answer: > > "Incest" is, I think, not the proper word Wry, as this is a different > issue. > > H. P. Blavatsky has said something on - the mentioned "oppositions " in > the > > above - in The Secret Doctrine. > > Something like: The Adwaita Sage say: Everthing is God - ParaBrahman. The > > Buddhist says: There is no God. > > And Blavatsky say, that both are right, it is just a question about how > one > > views the world. > > > > In the Bhagavad Gita, which is stated as the Essence of the Upanishads, > one > > gets, TWO paths: > > "1. Those devotees who, always devout, thus > > contemplate You (as the attribut ParaBrahm), and those also who > > (contemplate) > > the Impersihable, the Unmanifest (as Not this, Not that), - which > > of them are better versed in Yoga ? > > 2. Those who, fixing their thought on Me, (The thought of ParaBrahma) > > contemplate Me (The thought of ParaBrahm), > > always devout, endued with sumpreme faith, > > those in my opinion are the best > > Yogins." > > 3.-4. Those who ever contemplate the > > Imperishable, the Indefinable, the Unmanifest, the > > Omnipresent, and the Unthinkable, the Unchangeable, > > the Immutable, the Eternal - having restrained > > all the senses, always equanimous, intent > > on the welfare of all beings, - they reach Myself (ParaBrahma). > > 5. Greater is their trouble whose thoughts > > are set on the Unmanifest; for the Goal, the > > Unmanifest, is very hard for the embodied to reach." > > (from a private translation of The Bhagavad Gita) > > > > Well, I am maybe just stupid... > > > > A question to Wry and all readers: > > How do one get rid of the Nuclear Weapons on this Planet ? > > By not talking about them ? > > > > To all of you: Feel free to do your very best... > > > > > > from > > M. Suiflight with peace and love... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "wry" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:02 AM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > Hi. I thought everyone would understand my message. Here is a > paraphrase. > > > Compare this to the original and see if this makes sense: Thought cannot > > > figure things out, because it is only one function. To understand > requires > > a > > > balance of thought, feeling and body, which form a sort of trinity. > > > > > > The conundrum is that which is stated in Daniel's quote of Arthur Osborn > > In > > > order to note "God," one needs to approach from a reference point, which > > > cannot, by its very nature be unlimited. In other words, in order to > note > > > God, one has to either put God in a box, which obliterates the concept > of > > > God, as God cannot be boxed, or else to obliterate oneself, in which > case, > > > God cannot be recognized or noted. Therefore this is an unreconcilible > > > situation, but if something is OUTSIDE this situation, these two > extremes > > > can be polarized consciously in such a way that a third force is > created. > > In > > > such a way, one consciously creates oneself out of a flexible firmanent > by > > > direct and exact imprint.This is the divine on earth in the > manifestation > > of > > > creative love, which is symbolized by the anointing hand which > represents > > > the conscious and therefore transcendent ACT and the combination of > > duality > > > with creativity (two with three to make a five). > > > > > > The error we generally make as people is that we attempt to return to > God. > > > This is a selfish act, the same as going out for ice cream when one's > > house > > > is on fire and there are children in it. "Love" and "God" are terms of > > > pleasure that are synonymous with ice cream. But to stay with the > "lack" > > > and not to move away from it is the beginning of a reversal of the > > current, > > > out of which is generated the creative act. And true creation is a > > completed > > > and yet continuously generative deed, the end event connected to the > > > beginning by means of the brea-dth or the middle. This is BEING. > > > > > > What is generally lacking is a very SPECIFIC practice of conversion, by > > > which the two oppositions which create the conundrum are combined in > such > > a > > > way that the concept of "God" does not become an idol or a projected > > image, > > > which is a form of spiritual incest. This is not about talk, which, > > > unfortunately, will not do the trick, but about using language in such a > > way > > > that talking becomes a sacred act and a doorway. It is not the subject > of > > > conversation that makes talk sacred, but the FORM of the consciously > > omitted > > > essentials, which cannot be described by language anyway, only > > > cheapened.This omission, if structured in such a way that something > which > > > cannot be spoken is GIVEN, forms a sacred vowel. Thank you for asking me > > > what you do not understand , and by doing so, helping me to understand > > > better myself. Sincerely, Wry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:32 PM > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > HI Wry and all of you, > > > > > > > > Please clarify that statement Wry. > > > > I didn't get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > M. Sufilight...being humble and all... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Wry" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM > > > > Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > > > > You make things too complex. Thinking thinking thinking will deplete > > > > > you. Such a conundrum as stated below is like a genie in a bottle. > > > > > It is always between oneself and ones "God". What is between comes > > > > > out in the conscious ACT as an actice FORCE. This is why the human > > > > > hand is a symbol of Jesus Christ. You people will talk talk talk > till > > > > > death comes and gets you with his grinning skull and bones. There is > > > > > no bread-th to this. Will you never stop? Wry > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > > > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Daniel and all of you, > > > > > > > > > > > > A view: > > > > > > A solution to the below problem could be - if one uses a "mirror" > > > > > on the > > > > > > views on ParaBrahman one might get the idea ! > > > > > > Try this posting - from 22nd november 2002. > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9056 > > > > > > > > > > > > Here the idea of the mirror and maya comes forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here it is again --- changed slightly: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Philosophers of all lands and all times have sought to discover > the > > > > > truth > > > > > > about God, the objective world and man, as well as their mutual > > > > > > relationship. Maya is the will that causes all three. It is a > clear, > > > > > > flawless mirror. When the Sattwic nature is reflected in that > > > > > mirror, God > > > > > > results; when the Rajasic nature is reflected, the Jiva or > > > > > individualised > > > > > > self results. It is ever-anxious to grow, to garb, to survive and > > > > > to secure. > > > > > > When thamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is > > > > > the > > > > > > result. All three are ParaAtman, but they derive their Reality as > > > > > its > > > > > > reflections. When undergoing reflection they attain different > forms > > > > > and > > > > > > combinations of characteristics. the One becomes many; every one > of > > > > > the many > > > > > > is Real only because of the One in it. MAYA too is a component of > > > > > the One; > > > > > > by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into > > > > > many. > > > > > > But the One is ever One. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > Maya is also known as Universal Mother, Sakthi, Kali, Durga, > Aum... > > > > > > > > > > > > Maya - Prakrithi is God's manifestation. > > > > > > Everything has come from God. > > > > > > There is nothing except God. > > > > > > Nature is God's manifestation. > > > > > > The cosmos is the embodiment of God. > > > > > > There is nothing not even an atom in the world without God. > > > > > > God is the immanent power in everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > God and Cosmos are related as Cause and Effect. The relationship > is > > > > > > inter-dependent and inseparable. > > > > > > The basic truth of nature is One in the many; that is the key to > its > > > > > > understanding. > > > > > > The ONE - in God alone is all flux, all this changing Cosmos, > > > > > established. > > > > > > All that you see in the cosmos - the moving and stationary > objects - > > > > > is a > > > > > > manifestation of the ATMA. > > > > > > In the spiritual realm, what you hear at every step is ATMA. > > > > > > What you see is ATMA. > > > > > > What makes you forget is also ATMA ! > > > > > > The world is designed to teach man to be one with God. > > > > > > The entire universe originated from sound vibrations. > > > > > > The one indestructible sound OM is Brahman, the Universal > Absolute. > > > > > > Everything is Maya, but the TRUTH is shown there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maya brings trouble, and at the same time protects the disciple of > > > > > God. > > > > > > The clouds seem to be stuck to the sky; so too MAYA (the tendency > to > > > > > > conclude that what the senses tell us is true or to project our > > > > > preferences > > > > > > and prejudices on to the world around us) gives us an untrue > > > > > picture of > > > > > > BRAHMAN. > > > > > > It makes us believe, that the world is Real. Its impact warps our > > > > > reasoning > > > > > > process, our sensory impressions and our view on God, on creation, > > > > > and on > > > > > > man. It spreads before us a diversity which tantalises and > deceives. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maya flourishes on ignorance and ends with knowledge. > > > > > > The ignorance which prevents and postpones the inquiry into the > > > > > nature of > > > > > > the Atma makes Maya flourish. So Vidya - AtmaVidya spells the doom > > > > > of Maya. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another interesting point is this: It may be argued since Maya > > > > > produces > > > > > > Vidya, Maya is right and proper and deserving respect; but the > > > > > Vidya that > > > > > > araises oout of it is also not permanent. As soon as Avidya is > > > > > destroyed > > > > > > through Vidya, the Vidya too ends ! The tree and the fire, both > are > > > > > > destroyed when the fire ends ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Love is our nature. > > > > > > Love is all. > > > > > > Everyone must become the embodiment of Love. > > > > > > Love alone makes lige meaningful. > > > > > > Live in Love. > > > > > > When you have LOVE, you practise non-voilence. > > > > > > The ATMA can be known only through LOVE; all claims to the > contrary > > > > > are > > > > > > spouriuos and missing the mark. > > > > > > Shower it, and you will be showered in return ! > > > > > > Stop sharing Love totally, and there will be no more to share. > > > > > > Develop love by sharing it. > > > > > > Love is the basis for Self-discovery. > > > > > > The end of knoeledge is Love. > > > > > > Love is constant. Only onchanging love that shines brightly in the > > > > > heart is > > > > > > true love. > > > > > > We should have faith in Love which is another form of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is only one royal road for the spiritual journey ... LOVE. > > > > > > Love lead you quickly to the Goal. > > > > > > Love is nothing else but Love. --- Ignorance bars your view. > > > > > > Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline. > > > > > > Love wins against all evils. > > > > > > Love is patient when needed. > > > > > > Love your enemies. Treat even the ones you hate as your friends. > > > > > > Love is NOT negative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > M. Sufilight with peace...or a peace... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 7:36 PM > > > > > > Subject: Theos-World "Location of God" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC > WOMB, > > > > > > > Arthur W. Osborn comments: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are > > > > > > > virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same > > > > > sense > > > > > > > that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to > > > > > > > objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a > > > > > > > primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of > > > > > > > immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would > be > > > > > > > pantheism." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having > > > > > > > objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe. But > > > > > this > > > > > > > poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of > > > > > > > universality with the objective implication of being in > existence. > > > > > > > As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, > > > > > whereas > > > > > > > existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." > p. > > > > > > > 57 caps added. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 24 11:58:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 24 Nov 2002 19:58:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 77955 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2002 19:58:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 24 Nov 2002 19:58:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2002 19:58:53 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 36EDA480383 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:58:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001301c293f3$2547e580$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Let Us Not Forget Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:53:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Thanks Daniel. I do so very much agree on that. My view: If one did more on relating the Law of Karma to the "race" issues and the issue of "racism", then one maybe could get a more clear picture on where Theosophy really stands. To me Theosophy is not so much the different Theosophical organizations as it is - the idea of the true Teaching on Wisdom. A teaching which most certainly has existed through thousands of years. Because every student is a teacher, and every teacher is a student. We all learn. God - Parabrahman knows. We know this: There is no Religion higher than the TRUTH. And let us ponder on - how deliver ourselves and those interested from the ignorance and lack of wisdom, which so many seems to be involved in. from M. Sufilight with a happy smile... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: Theos-World Let Us Not Forget > Even though Brian has been removed from Theos-Talk [that is my > understanding from Eldon's recent email], we should not forget that > Brian did bring to our forum some important issues that Blavatsky and > Theosophical students should ponder on. > > For example, the "race" issue and the use of the word "aryan" as > given in the various quotes from the Mahatma Letters and in the > Secret Doctrine need to be studied, discussed and understood. > > And I assume it was because of Brian that Goswami came to Theos- > Talk. That is good, because Goswami brings up underlying issues that > need to studied, discussed and understood by Theosophists. > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 17:46:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 01:46:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 84084 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 01:46:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 01:46:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 01:46:03 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ac.31e285d6 (25305) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:46:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:46:00 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World WHAT WERE THEY MASTERS OF ? PART II To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 But these "assertions" are not necessarily attributable to HPB or the so called Masters. What has the beliefs or assertions of later leaders of the TS, or interpretations of post Blavatsky theosophical writers have to do with the original theosophical teachings themselves? To confuse the original teachings of Theosophy or the aims and purposes of the Theosophical Movement with the Theosophical Society (TS) -- and use such "evidence" as a basis of argument against the validity of the teachings of HPB and the Masters -- is actually setting up a "straw man." LHM In a message dated 11/20/02 5:51:04 AM, bhakti.eohn@verizon.net writes: >WHAT ARGUMENT ? WHAT 'STRAW MAN' ? PROPOSTION # 1. BELOW IS A >STATEMENT OF ASSERTIONS FOUND IN THEOSOPHICAL SOURCES THEMSELVES. > >--- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: >> Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: >> > >> > WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MASTERS THE MASTERS OF ? >> >> A body of knowledge. >> >> > THEOSOPHICAL PROPOSITIONS >> > >> > 1. THE ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY OF THE EARTH, THEOSOPHY IDENTIFIED AS >> > BUDDHISM, IS FOUND IN THE MAHATMAS' LETTERS, AND THESE LETTERS ARE >> > THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF ESOTERIC / OCCULT OR HIGHER WISDOM FOR >> > THEOSOPHISTS. NEXT TO THESE LETTERS, THE "STANZAS OF DYZAN" ARE >OF >> > CANONICAL IMPORTANCE TO THEOSOPHISTS. >> >> Straw man argument. The rest of your message bcomes >meaningless. >> >> Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 24 18:25:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 02:25:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 70929 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 02:25:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 02:25:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 02:25:36 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G8wJ-0006W2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:25:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE18A24.10DCC12F@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:25:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > It is a frequency of electromagnetic waves. > > I did not say that the electromagnetic spectrum did not exist in > nature, butthat the experience of the color red does not ecist. Actually, you said that "the color red does not exist", a very different statement. However, if you meant what you now wrote, I will say that the existence or non-existence of Universals is still unproven. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 24 18:30:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 02:30:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 42926 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 02:30:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 02:30:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 02:30:44 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18G91I-00058J-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:30:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE18B59.405A3AB7@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:30:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson References: <3DE05789.4CEFBBED@sprynet.com> <010d01c293df$39b134e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Marina Sisson wrote: > > > Just want to comment on the various comments about Paul Johnson posting > > under the Bri***** or Go-Go Swami aliases. > > Well, I do not know Brigitte or Paul personally, but I had personal > correspondence with bothof them, and I am sure they are completely separated > persons. Anyway, all this discussion seems to me a waste of time. If > someone wants to create a personage, what's the matter? Because Bri**** and Go-go are saying things which, if they came from Paul, would be damaging to his reputation. If you think names can never hurt you, consider: Would you like it if someone sent anonymous notes to your neighbors, saying that you are a convicted child molestor under an assumed name? Bart From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 18:51:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 02:51:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 38253 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 02:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 02:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 02:51:28 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1c8.20c0881 (30950) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:51:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c8.20c0881.2b12ea29@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:51:21 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re.The Mahatma Letters. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Both... Caught it on reread after spell check -- so I left it. ;-) In a message dated 11/20/02 4:02:09 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > Was that a pun or a fortunate typo? > >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >> Thanks for the complement? ;-) >> >> In a message dated 11/16/02 3:52:07 PM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: >> >> >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> >> >Jerry, wrote me once on the list where he "really" is: "talking to >> >Leon >> >> >Maurer is like talking to a brick wall, but a prickly one." >> > >> >Sounds good to me. A brick wall does not interrupt, does not argue >> >with me, does not dismiss what I have to say, and gives an impression >> >of solidity and stability. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 19:15:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 03:15:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 68884 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 03:15:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 03:15:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 03:15:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.6.2f62f9b (30950) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:15:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6.2f62f9b.2b12efd5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:15:33 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I was given it by my father when I was 12. I was an obedient son, read it from cover to cover, and remember it as being fascinating. Although, I can't remember what I got out of it -- except the bicycle my dad promised me and, maybe the ability to wade through entire dry textbooks in college before starting a course (which made professor's think I was a wiz, and saved a lot of homework study time :-). In a message dated 11/20/02 1:38:13 PM, kpauljohnson@yahoo.com writes: >--- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: >> Paul, >> Let us know if you get through "Tales Beelzebub Told His >Grandchildren" >> in one >> piece. Lol. >> >> John > >For the umpteenth time I started it and gave up after the first >chapter. This from someone who made it through the unabridged SD >four times, all the Blavatsky Collected Writings, and the entire 24 >volume set of Cayce readings, plus such hefty tomes as Being and >Nothingness! BTG is unreadable for me and that's saying a lot. >Everything else G. wrote is fine though IMO. Especially Views From >the Real World, from spoken lectures. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 19:29:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 03:29:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 97391 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 03:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 03:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 03:29:20 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.16f.1793405e (30950) for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:29:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <16f.1793405e.2b12f300@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:29:04 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World All CAPS To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Also being somewhat handicapped visually, In my mailing program, I can set both incoming and outgoing mail to be displayed in 16-24 point size of an easy to read font like Verdana. Much easier to read and type lower case that way, than all CAPS at any point size. In a message dated 11/20/02 4:11:41 PM, ramadoss@gbronline.com writes: >The developers of Windows being well aware of the needs of those with >handicaps, have provided option to display characters in large letters, >and this usually solves the problem for those with handicaps and avoid the >need >for all CAPS. > >mkr > > >At 07:50 AM 11/20/02 -0800, Wes Amerman wrote: >>But where do you get the idea that "all caps" are more readable, or that >>"normal" people prefer them?? It's considered "shouting" in all discussion >>groups I have ever participated in -- philosophical, cultural, financial >and >>otherwise. I have even seen real-time chat room moderators ask paying >>subscribers to leave expensive lists where they were abusing a posted >"no >>all caps" rule. Personally, I prefer not to have to read such text, whether >>from Mr. Goswami, you or Dallas. Thanks, Eldon, for pointing out an >>alternative From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Nov 24 22:54:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 06:54:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 6410 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 06:54:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 06:54:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 06:54:03 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.2b.31bfab33 (30950) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:53:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2b.31bfab33.2b132307@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:53:59 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Lets Check The Mahatma Letters: Step 1 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Those kinds of theories are just that -- speculations and hypotheses which are no better than opinions based on guesses based on observed material objects and chemical processes that prove nothing about ontology or origins -- since science hasn't the faintest idea what conscious is or came from, let alone understanding the roots of matter itself. What science doesn't know about the origin of Mankind could fill more books than has ever been written or said about anything. Did you ever think that when theosophy talks of Mankind, they are not referring to their physical body forms? Or, that the word "man" actual means mind-being? Science still can't answer the question, Which came first, the chicken or the egg, consciousness or mind, mind or matter? When science can answer those questions, we'll start believing their theories about mundane things, such as "mind beings" they erroneously label "homo sapiens" and their origins. The theory of relativity that contradicted all classical physics ideas about space and gravity did not come from direct reductive scientific observation. Face it, your denials have no weight whatsover, as proof that theosophy is false. In a message dated 11/20/02 8:12:21 PM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >How to check claims in The Mahatma Letters ? Among a list of others, >one way is that Geneticists can track emigrations because of the >train of errors that slowly accumulates in certain regions of the DNA. > (snip) > >So, next to you the 170 members on this list, what can one firther >say as a confirmation or non-confirmation Mahatma Letter content >versus results of today's genetic research ? From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 24 22:59:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 06:59:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 55036 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 06:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 06:59:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 06:59:56 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.180.11c38f40 (4012) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <180.11c38f40.2b132461@cs.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:59:45 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Steve, Thanks for your comments. I believe you meant Hippolytus. Yes, I have both and others in the Anti-Nicene Christian Library, I have the 1868 Edition, Edinburgh. I respect your view of Irenaeus, however for me G R S Mead's works contribute more to myself as a novice due to his heavy footing notes and definitions replete in all his works. Valentinus I fell in Love with when I first read of the Aeon System and the "Marriages Made in Heaven" examples by the Syzygy's, I thought it both beautifull and unique, as uplifting spiritually having a higher tone throughout. As to becoming dependent of the Church Fathers, I do shy from that as I recall reading one that said "We create these lies for the good of the many", they had their politics and senior goal as evidenced even in todays time. Saul who is Transmorgified into Paul due to his Illumination on the road to Tarsus "And Behold I saw a Great Light", had much worthy to say and to hear,he spoke of our "Striving" in Christ, a literal truth from my view. His view of agape' aligns to the Declarative emphatic directive of Romans 12:2--Be Ye Transformed- that by the Renewing of thy mind--ye may know what is that Good and Perfect Wiil of God. To me this sings Patanjali loudly. The difference the Nag Hammadhi extends to us today for one thing is that in this compilation of the treatises discovered are works which no -one had possesion of such as the Sethian works, and they reflect what was read and spoken to the long ago rather than a commentary second hand, possible by some one having complex motives. Each can read and plumm their depths themselves, "other- determination is the least most favorable condition of the Being. From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 24 23:28:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 07:28:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 58084 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 07:28:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 07:28:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 07:28:57 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.b9.2a7bb943 (4012) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:28:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:28:53 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, I told my 12 year old Yorkshire Terrier she was a direct descendent from Wolves 15,000 years ago near the Northern Border of China. Now she sits on the window baying like a wolf at the Moon and wagging her tail! Just kidding,lol. John From msisson@zaz.com.br Mon Nov 25 03:02:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: msisson@zaz.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 11:02:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 12713 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 11:02:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 11:02:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ivoti.terra.com.br) (200.176.3.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 11:02:22 -0000 Received: from canela.terra.com.br (canela.terra.com.br [200.176.3.79]) by ivoti.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA88F408595 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:02:20 -0200 (BRST) Received: from oemcomputer (21935.bsb.virtua.com.br [200.167.219.35]) (authenticated user msisson) by canela.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66475114029 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:02:20 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002901c29472$6b1954c0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> To: References: <3DE05789.4CEFBBED@sprynet.com> <010d01c293df$39b134e0$23dba7c8@bsb.virtua.com.br> <3DE18B59.405A3AB7@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:04:24 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Marina Sisson" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5253764 X-Yahoo-Profile: msisson21 Hi Bart, I did not consider the question under this aspect. You are right. If they are using a pseudonym to damage someone's reputation, of course that is bad. Marina -----Mensagem Original----- De: "Bart Lidofsky" Para: Enviada em: Segunda-feira, 25 de Novembro de 2002 00:30 Assunto: Re: Theos-World Paul Johnson is, in his secret ID, Paul Johnson > Marina Sisson wrote: > > > > > Just want to comment on the various comments about Paul Johnson posting > > > under the Bri***** or Go-Go Swami aliases. > > > > Well, I do not know Brigitte or Paul personally, but I had personal > > correspondence with bothof them, and I am sure they are completely separated > > persons. Anyway, all this discussion seems to me a waste of time. If > > someone wants to create a personage, what's the matter? > > Because Bri**** and Go-go are saying things which, if they came from > Paul, would be damaging to his reputation. If you think names can never > hurt you, consider: Would you like it if someone sent anonymous notes to > your neighbors, saying that you are a convicted child molestor under an > assumed name? > > Bart > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 25 04:38:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 12:38:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 63973 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 12:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 12:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 12:37:59 -0000 Received: from pool0012.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.12] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GIUv-0004Z7-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:37:58 -0800 To: Subject: RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:34:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 25 2002 Dear Friends Both the words "race" and "aryan" had special meanings in 1875 /1899 which do not relate to later history including the period when the political party of the Nazis in Germany and elsewhere, appropriations of both these terms in the 1930s / 1940s and later, up to our modern times. The word "Aryan" is from old central Asia and means "noble." The ancient Persians were denoted "Iranis" -- and the designation has been revived -- " or "Aryans." If one goes to the INDEX of The SECRET DOCTRINE (1888) one will find adequate references that determine what was meant by H P B when she used those terms. "Race" was used as a measure of TIME, and the development of certain capacities, to which the whole of humanity was subject during the time when it went through seven changes during the period of a "GLOBE." A "GLOBE' is one seventh of a "ROUND." "Race," as then used by H P B, had nothing to do with the color of the skin. RACE [Complexion and its changes are dealt with in the S D on pages: Vol. II, 178, 227, 249-50, 282.] [Differences between Races are defined in S D Vol. I xliv; ; II, 103, 249-50, 607 ] [Origins were polygenetic S D I xxxv; 241, 574 ; II 139, 168, 191fn, 249, 748 ] [The dying out of races is explained: S D Vol. II 192, 195-6, 443-5, 437, 609, 779-80 ] [ The earliest races were boneless, ethereal, androgynous, astral, S D II 46, 96, 108, 115-7, 131, 134, 149, 151, 160, 174, 191-2, 194, 294, 583, 635, 704, ] [ They were born from the "gods" S D I 323; II 86-7, 164, 198, 507, 538 ] [The effect of isolation on races: S D II 425 ] [Hybrid "races" S D II 275, 714, 444 (new race springs from hybrids) ] ["Inferior" races : S D II 162, 249, 425 (a fallacy), 721, ] [Three great "races" only remain: S D II 471fn, 780 ] [Our "race" has reached the 5th sub-race S D II 471fn ] [Savage besides civilized in all ages S D II 716 ] Nowadays we refer to complexion when we mention race, and to physical heredity, also to some of the vicissitudes that our ancestors have been forced to undergo until a more reasonable sense of human balance and equality HEREDITY [Heredity-- Its causes S D I 223, II 421, ] [Biogenetic Law S D II 659, ] [Acquired characteristics: S D I 219, 223fn; II 711fn ] [Transmission of atoms: S D II 671-2 [Karma and S D II 178, ] ANTHROPOIDS and APES [Anthropoids: S D II 688fn, ] [Unnatural, accidental creation: S D II 261, ] [Origin: S D I 185fn, II 184, 195, 200-1, 262, 286-8, 375, 679, 688-9 ] [Descended from man S D II 185, 187, 287-8, 676, 682, 688fn, ] ["Common ancestor ?" S D II 646 ] [Some will become "human" in this Round: S D I 184, II 61-3 ] [3rd ROUND ape-man: S D II 730 ] [Will die out in our race S D I 184 ] ARYAN ( Irani - Persian - Noble ) [Ancestors (of Egyptians S D II 328, 746 ); (Arabs are later S D II 200} [Born in the north S D II 426, 768 ] [Atlanteans preceded and taught: S D II 144, 266fn, 352, 384,395, 426, 495, 768, 776, ] [Aryan Adepts fought Atlantean sorcerers S D II 225, 384, 495, ] [5th race ( S D II 8, 10) is incorrectly called "Aryan" S D II 433-4 ] [Hindu, 1st sub-race of Aryans, almost 1 million years old S D II 436fn, 449-451, 470-1, 609, ] [Negroes, Mongols are of the Aryans S D II 607fn ] [Europeans are later "aryans" S D I 425 ] [Many colors S D II 249-50, 394, 426, 607fn ] [2nd Sub-race built menhirs, etc...S D II 750 [Present Kali-Yuga is of the Aryans S D I 644-5; II 147fn ] These are a few of the many references to pre-history given in The SECRET DOCTRINE Best wishes, Dallas ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Daniel H. Caldwell Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:06 AM To: Subject: Let Us Not Forget Even though Brian has been removed from Theos-Talk [that is my understanding from Eldon's recent email], we should not forget that Brian did bring to our forum some important issues that Blavatsky and Theosophical students should ponder on. For example, the "race" issue and the use of the word "aryan" as given in the various quotes from the Mahatma Letters and in the Secret Doctrine need to be studied, discussed and understood. And I assume it was because of Brian that Goswami came to Theos- Talk. That is good, because Goswami brings up underlying issues that need to studied, discussed and understood by Theosophists. Daniel From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 25 04:38:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 12:38:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 50844 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 12:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 12:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 12:38:26 -0000 Received: from pool0012.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.12] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GIVM-0004Z7-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:38:25 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Sub-races of our Fifth Root Race Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Friends and Larry: I am puzzled. Do help. Where do you find it that "chosen Dhyanis at one time failed." Were they "Dhyanis" then ? Or were they like us POTENTIAL DHYANIS? If the 7-principled Dhyanis US, then why do we do so badly ? I think we need to wake up and try to discover truths and laws so we can live more harmonious lives (with all Nature and her many types and kinds of beings) and do real good. By definition a DHYANI is wise and if wise IT knows the LAW -- so where are the errors? have you a S D reference ? There are THREE lines of evolution: ( S D I 181-2 ) they have to be melded by the active effort of the MIND. The, they have to volunteer their knowledge and power to help Nature go further. This is the gap between self-consciousness and UNIVERSAL SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. (as I see it). [Have a look at the references I send you concerning this, separately, please ] Best wishes, Dal -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts [mailto:llkingston2@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 7:42 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: Sub-races of our Fifth Root Race Thanks Louis! This is the type of thoughtful discussion I always hope will be generated. Doesn't always happen, but when it does, it is well worth it. I hope other students will ponder your statements and join in. One further set of questions: We know that we are dealing with two basic things here, a physical form, which has been evolving for some time and continue to be perfected. as this happens, all these higher spiritual functions we have addressed in the past can be realized. Then there are the monads that will occupy those forms. So when we speak of the coming race or sub-race, which do we mean or do we include both? Could it be that the forms will indeed generate in the Americas, but that which monads will be qualifies to occupy those forms is an open question? We know that even chosen Dhyanis at one time failed by choice to incarnate into the forms chosen for them at that time because they did not want to be restricted by those forms--and thus set themselves up for future less than desirable incarnations. This is a whole new meaning to the old phrase "many are called but few are chosen." So while new evolved forms may yet result from our present gene structure, it does not follow that we as individuals must of necessity be the monads that will occupy those forms. But let's see what others think also and are able to find any further definitive statements on the matter. Larry On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:05:36 EST Teos9@aol.com writes: > > Interesting quote Larry, > > HPB's use of the phrase "PRO TEM" (for the time being), leaves some > interesting questions unanswered. Even though she goes on to make > certain > comments about becoming "a strongly separated race apart," one is > left to > wonder about a certain indefinite quality of her "pro tem" comment. > Are there > possibilities that Americans could fail to actualize their "sixth > sub race" > potential, due to poor or inappropriate choices during the upcoming > few > centuries? Seems to me, we could be at such a crossroads of proper > choices, > right now. > > There seems to be two opposing concepts at work in this quote. If we > > understand HPB to be mostly correct in her commentaries, then some > of her > remarks take on prophetic qualities, such as this one. On the other > hand, if > an individual or a nation's manifest destiny is governed by the > choices made, > and the KARMIC consequences of such choices, then it would seem, > that NOTHING > is carved in stone, which reduces all prophetic statements to a > lucky or > unlucky guess. > > That said, I do subscribe to the idea of root races and their > evolution, as a > natural flow of the human life wave. My concerns, are about when > specific > groups, are named. History tells us that there have already been > many > civilization and societies that have risen and then collapsed. Could > those > collapses have been caused by exercising choices, that lead to a > FAILURE in > actualizing a societies potential? > > Louis ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com --- You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-6660817A@lists.lyris.net From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 06:28:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 14:28:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 15186 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 14:28:27 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:28:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <180.11c38f40.2b132461@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1234 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.152.235.228 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > As to becoming dependent of the Church Fathers, I do shy from that as > I recall > reading one that said "We create these lies for the good of the many", That's probably true, but they were initiated into th esoteric teaching and let it out in bits and bobs throughout their writings. I had to read through a mountain of preposterous drivel to get the axattered nuggets of esoteric teaching, but it was well worth it. The exoteric system sucks, but the esoteric system really is sublime. Also, I liked Mead's books, but if he assembled the esoteric system he never wrote about it, nor has anyone else to my knowledge. It still remains secret after 2000 years. What is interesting about Paul is what is hidden in there, not what is stated openly. He wrote about nantra neditation, astral projecion, Merkabah mysticism, and all sorts of other things, and saying nothing too plainly. One thing you will not see in the English translations is that all the terminology if the gnostics is in his letters. He writes about archons, Aeons, pleroma, etc. The English translations were done so as to conceal that fact, so you have to go back to the original Greek. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 06:40:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 14:40:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 60667 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 14:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 14:40:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 14:40:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 14:40:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:40:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DE18A24.10DCC12F@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1029 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.152.235.228 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Actually, you said that "the color red does not exist", a very > different statement. However, if you meant what you now wrote, I will > say that the existence or non-existence of Universals is still unproven. I don't want to labor the point, but I am missing something here. Given that the color red is an experience, how can anyone say that it exists objectively? And given that it is an experiece, how can there be any difference between the statement that "the experience of the color red does not ecist" and the statement that "the color red does not exist." Incidentally the distinction between phenomena (experience) and the noumena (objectibe reality) is not something discovered by me. It has been written about by philosophers in the west since the seventeenth century and is generally accepted by scientists today. It is also fundamental to Blavatsky's SD. although I have yet to meet a Theosophist who understands what she says about it. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Mon Nov 25 07:51:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 15:51:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 20533 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:51:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 32507 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.78 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:52 AM Subject: WHAT WERE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MAHATMAS THE MASTERS OF ?=20 PART 2 EDITED (PREVIOUS III AND IV TOGETHER) =20=20 What Were They Masters Of? Examining the Claims of the Theosophical Masters Part Two By H H Bhakti Ananda Goswami An Historical Perspective Whether or not God or gods exist, their worship certainly does, and=20 such worship can be studied rigorously in an interdisciplinary way in=20 history, the same as any other real-world phenomenon. In the same=20 way, the 19th century innovation and diffusion of Madame H.P.=20 Blavatsky's Theosophy can be studied. Thoughts, theistic, atheistic=20 and agnostic, etc., and the symbols, words and actions which express=20 them have history. While people of equal intelligence and integrity=20 may dispute the existence of God, gods, or the Theosophical Masters,=20 the existence of religions and the Theosophical Society is not=20 debated. While theosophy classically defined did not come into=20 being with H. P. Blavatsky (HPB), her 19th century presentation of=20 the 'theosophy' of the Mahatmas and the Stanzas of Dzyan brought into=20 being the existence of the Theosophical Society. Despite the fact=20 that this Society is such a recent historical development, there are=20 some impediments to understanding the genealogy of its ideas. It=20 began as an esoteric study group of sorts, and even as the more=20 public Society was developing, at the core of it remained HPB and her=20 esoteric section of the exoteric Theosophical Society. It is easier=20 to trace the course through time and territory of the popular=20 exoteric `Great Religions' than it is to trace the innovations and=20 diffusions of the elitist esoteric traditions. Nevertheless, the=20 esoteric or occult traditions have real-world history too, and with=20 some additional effort, much can be learned about these as well. Paul=20 Johnson has noted the sui generis problem (see below).=20 Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment of=20 the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the=20 Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who=20 insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God;=20 Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose=20 words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist=20 that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which=20 everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane=20 calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always- complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui=20 generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think=20 Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although=20 they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas. The historical and scientific approach to the study of a religion=20 (or `spirituality,' I might add) is often experienced as threatening=20 by the faithful, which is another problem encountered when=20 researchists attempt to objectively trace-out the genealogy,=20 innovation and diffusion of thought systems. Thus the resistance of=20 the faithful to those attempting to objectively study their tradition=20 may result in purposeful non-cooperation in such endeavors, and maybe=20 even in the denial of, hiding, distortion, or other obscuration of=20 evidence. In even worse cases, the investigators work may be=20 suppressed or censured, the investigators personally vilified or=20 threatened, their writings and even their careers or lives destroyed=20 for daring to attempt to part the veil, and behold the real-world=20 genealogy of a 'spirituality' or religion. This ongoing attempt in a=20 tradition, to deny the genealogy of its teachings, may create a body=20 of apologetic and polemical literatures designed to defend the faith=20 from its own origins, and anyone attempting to discover them. Thus=20 a considerable barrier may be constructed over time, to the=20 understanding of the history of certain ideas.=20 Above Paul Johnson used the phrase "...self-honesty about the history=20 of ideas." This immediately caught my attention, because as a=20 spiritual director, I use the term "self-honesty" on a daily basis=20 with those I counsel. I use this term because I define HUMILITY as=20 self-honesty or honesty about, and with one's self. This humility is=20 the basis of all other virtues and necessary for self- 'realization'. In fact, such humility is in a sense self- realization. Truth and Honesty are inseparable, and must be held-to=20 by persons of integrity, as the foundation of everything knowable and=20 worth knowing. Theosophists like to talk about recognizing what is=20 mayavic / illusory, but their entire mystical Theosophical Society=20 history has apparently been fabricated by persons with no apparent=20 self-honesty, who purposely obscured the true sources of their=20 information. Thus the faithful of the Theosophical Society bear a=20 great burden in having to defend against all evidence and reason, the=20 claims of the Society Founders to "...direct truth straight from the=20 source" as Mr. Johnson has said. Mr. Johnson also raises the=20 question "self-honesty" in Hinduism and Buddhism.=20 As someone who has studied the history of ideas in Hinduism, Buddhism=20 and other religio-cultural complexes for over 30 years, I have some=20 insight into how various esoteric and exoteric traditions have coped=20 with, or failed to cope with the fundamental issues of their=20 genealogy and self-honesty. There is a rather universal way that=20 organized religious traditions, exoteric or esoteric, preserve and=20 perpetuate their authentic teachings. In fact, that "...self-honesty=20 about the history of ideas." is exactly what the system of sampradaya=20 or parampara and GURU, SHASTRA and SADHU (GSS) is all about in the=20 authentic teaching lineages of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shakti-ism,=20 Buddhism, Catholicism, etc. These exoteric traditions all attempt to=20 preserve their sacred heritage, by systems of initiation and=20 apostolic succession. For example, one cannot just claim to be a=20 Madhvite or Ramanujite Vaishnava master, any more than one could=20 claim to be a Coptic Catholic bishop without the authority of the=20 Coptic Rite Patriarch. No one can serve as a bishop in the Roman Rite=20 Catholic Church, without the proper elevation by the Pope. No one can=20 just claim to be the next Dalai Lama or Patriarch of any of the=20 Vaishnava, Shaivite, Shankarite Advaitan, Hasidic Jewish, and=20 traditional Sufi or Catholic Rite lineages. All of these `Apostolic'=20 traditions zealously guard their teaching authority, which preserves=20 the guru, shastra and sadhu history of their ideas and practices. The=20 real-world checks and balances system of guru (living teacher in=20 union with the magisterium), shastra (scripture, canonical body of=20 writings) and sadhu (the tradition of the saints, mystics,=20 theologians and commentators), provides exoteric religions with a way=20 to try to safeguard the historical integrity and continuity of their=20 traditions. Thus the legitimate lineages of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and=20 Buddhism, etc., are extremely strict about properly identifying their=20 history of ideas and practices. No one can speak from the=20 Vyasasana `ex cathedra' without proper lineage credentials. While rejecting the teaching authority of Catholicism for example,=20 and these other major exoteric organized religions,=20 the 'spiritualities' of the esoteric or occult or Gnostic lineages=20 also employ systems of GSS. Thus they speak of initiations,=20 hierarchies, masters, chelas, have sacred or revered literatures and=20 exemplars (saints) just like the exoteric 'organized' religions they=20 oppose. So the esoteric schools of thought have not really=20 dispensed with religious authority and the necessary social=20 organization to preserve and promote their teachings, they have just=20 replaced a more exoteric, popular and widely-accepted religious=20 authority with their own esoteric and less known, more elite=20 authority.=20=20=20=20 The historical outcome of the GSS system of preservation and=20 transmission, in practice, means that for example, I can trace=20 certain ideas in my specific lineage back thousands of years, because=20 each generation in my lineage has identified its accepted sources,=20 heroes and associations with those of previous generations. I can=20 also trace some of the major and minor branching-out of ideas and=20 practices from the main `trunk' of my lineage, and identify some=20 groups that are proximately or remotely related to my own today.=20 Because there is such a high value placed on such parampara or=20 sampradaya lineage affiliations in the main Indic traditions,=20 studying these has enormous value for an historian of religion. It is=20 because of this "...self honesty of the history..." of their ideas,=20 that India and Tibet etc., have any recorded history to be studied at=20 all. It has been said that Indians wrote no history of India.=20 However, this cannot be said if one is considering the histories of=20 the great religious traditions of India, whose vast libraries were=20 full of detailed accounts of the lives and thought of the generations=20 transmitting their sacred traditions. One of the great tragedies of=20 the Muslim invasion of India was the vast destruction of Indian=20 religious center monastery-university cities and all their=20 libraries. Still, there is an enormous corpus of authentically=20 ancient religious literatures extant in India. After India won her=20 independence, with Government support, the Bharata Vidya Bhavan went=20 on a campaign to rescue, publish and translate the classical=20 literatures of Bharata / India, which had been neglected and even=20 suppressed under the British Raj. One of my own Vaishnava Mentors=20 was the head of the Sanskrit Department of the Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan,=20 and More recently some of my Vaishnava godbrothers were funded by the=20 Smithsonian Institute to create the Matsya Project to find and=20 microfilm the essential texts of the Vedic-Vaishnava Tradition for=20 posterity. This Matsya Project is now at the Oxford Centre for=20 Vaishnava and Hindu Studies. In addition, the modern leaders of=20 various branches of Vaishnavism, including my own branch, have made=20 great efforts to begin to translate the canon of their ancient=20 scriptures, and more recent but very important traditional=20 commentaries, into English and other languages. This means that many=20 classic Sanskrit and other Vaishnava Bhakti Shastras (scriptures),=20 litanies, hymns, rites, commentaries etc. can now be studied in=20 authoritative translations for the first time. This new general=20 availability of the ancient Vedic-Vaishnava Sanskrit source-works,=20 from their related authentic GSS traditions, means that non-native=20 and non-Vaishnava scholars now have the textual resources to analyze=20 the relationship of these traditions to Tibetan Pure Land and Tantric=20 Buddhism, and other traditions. What must be accomplished therefore=20 is a comparative study of the Mahatma Letters and the ancient=20 Vaishnava literatures that the Mahatmas' teachings seem to have been=20 acquired from. In addition to this, the Letters contain some=20 Shaivite and Devi tradition elements, and these should be explored in=20 relationship to the Agamic and Tantric literatures of important=20 lineages. With regard to the South Indian Shaivite and Devi / Shakti=20 Traditions which may have influenced the Mahatmas or their=20 Theosophical Society chelas, the sources in Sri Lanka are rapidly=20 disappearing.=20=20 Just as the followers of Mohammed destroyed vast libraries of Bhakti=20 Shastra in India, unfortunately in our time such destruction of=20 temples and libraries is still going on, but this time it is not just=20 fanatical Muslims doing it. In Sri Lanka, the center of Theravadin=20 Buddhism, the Sinhalese Buddhist `Aryans' (whose historical=20 relationship to the Theosophical Society is well known) have recently=20 occupied hundreds of Tamil (principally Shaivite and Devi) temples,=20 and have destroyed about a hundred thousand volumes of priceless=20 Tamil literatures in the last ten years. This campaign for the=20 cultural annihilation of the Dravidian Tamils by the so- called `Aryan' Sinhalese is one reason that scholars of religion,=20 such as myself, are concerned about the perpetuation of the `Aryan'=20 race-myth. However, despite such barbarism, and in consideration of=20 the amazing amount of information still available from ancient texts,=20 archeology and the intact living GSS traditions of Hinduism and=20 Buddhism, there is ample evidence now available for the study of=20 the "Mahatma Letters" in the historical context of their "...complex=20 genealogy...". At the time of the first presentations of the=20 Mahatma Letters and subsequent foundational writings of HBP and=20 friends, their English readers had no general access to the Vedic- Vaishnava Bhakti Shastras. As a result, it was easy to present=20 Buddhist-redacted teachings from those literatures as the sui generis=20 teachings of the Theosophical Society Masters. Now with the ready=20 availability of the Mahayana Buddhist-related Sanskrit Bhakti=20 Scriptures, comparisons can finally be made. Such comparisons will=20 go a long way towards establishing the ideological genealogy of HPB's=20 Theosophy, and establishing what the Mahatmas were actually the=20 masters of.=20=20=20 Suggestions For an Initial Survey of the Literature Because we have the Theosophical University Library Edition of=20 the "Mahatma Letters" in a searchable format online, one way to=20 approach an understanding of the Mahatmas' mastery from the=20 perspective of the Tibetan Buddhist-related Hindu and Buddhist GSS=20 traditions, is to search the Letters for key terms associated with=20 those GSS traditions. Completing such a search can establish the=20 initial evidentiary parameters of our textual investigation. In=20 assessing what the Mahatmas were the masters of, we can learn much=20 from what is NOT INCLUDED IN THE LETTERS. So let us begin with some of these key terms. The Mahatmas claimed an=20 identity with and love for India, which they significantly DID NOT=20 CALL 'BHARATA'. The continual use of European terms, instead of the=20 ones like `Bharata', which real ancient Indian Mahatmas would be=20 expected to use, is one of the most striking things about the Mahatma=20 Letters. The letters are also full of errors which can be easily=20 detected by anyone knowledgeable about Vedic-Vaishnava Sanskrit. In=20 addition, while seeming to deny that they had anything to do with the=20 scriptures / "shasters" (see below) the Mahatmas seemed to have=20 derived their entire cosmic mega-myth from a corruption of the=20 Vaishnava Bhakti Shastras.=20 Mahatma Letter # 134 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml- 134.htm [Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett. This letter includes a=20 message from Master Morya.] "=85 What have WE, the DISCIPLE of the true arhats, of esoteric=20 Buddhism and of sang-gyas to do with the SHASTERS and orthodox=20 Brahmanism? There are 100's of thousands of fakirs, sannyasis and=20 sadhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, ON THE=20 PATH OF ERROR, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even=20 hear of us. THEIR FOREFATHERS HAVE DRIVEN AWAY THE FOLLOWERS OF THE=20 ONLY TRUE PHILOSOPHY UPON EARTH AWAY FROM INDIA and now, it is not=20 for the latter to come to them but for them to come to us if they=20 want us. Which of them is ready to BECOME A BUDDHIST, a nastika as=20 they call us? None." Below I will give a few examples of this obvious derivation of the=20 Mahatmas' redacted mega-myth from the Cantos and Chapters of some=20 authentic Vaishnava Bhakti Shastras, but first here are some of the=20 Sanskrit Shastric terms I have already searched in the over=20 100 "Mahatma Letters," and the results, which are quite revealing. In=20 my search, I used several variant spellings, and the singular and=20 plural forms of the word. However for brevity below, only the main=20 search term or name is given with the totals below. Next to the word=20 is the total number of references in the Mahatma Letters, pulled up=20 by the Theosophical University search program. There seems to be no=20 reference to authentic Agamic or Dravidian Vedic spirituality in the=20 Mahatma Letters, however there are references to Buddhist Tantrism.=20=20 Places / States goloka 0 bhuloka 0 bhumi 0 vrindavan 0 bharata 0 kailasa 1 vaikuntha 0 sukhavati 1 lokas 6 loka 8 swarga 0 vyuha 0 bardo 1 nirvana 17 mahatattva 0 garbha 0 sunyata 0 turiya 0 karuna 0 Giver (masculine) Deity Names Vaishnava chrishna 2 vishnu 4 hari 0 purusha 4 narayana 0 avatar 3 devadeva 0 surya 2 indra 0 chandra 1 kama 12 vishvakarman 0 brahma 6 mithra 0=20 ananta 0 sesha 0=20 varuna 0 yama 0 deva(s) 21 shankarshan 0 pradumya 0 vasudeva 0 aniruddha 0 sunya, sunyata 0 (as Name of Vishnu from Sri Vishnu Sahashranama,=20 Gita Upanishad) nirvana 0 (as Name of Vishnu from Sri Vishnu Shahasranama, Gita=20 Upanishad)=20 Shaivite rudra 0 shiva 2 kala 0 hara 0 muruga(n) 0 kartikeya 0 skanda 0 ganesha 0 ganapati 0 Related Receiver (Feminine) Divine Names Vaishnava radha 0 sakti 2 prakriti 3 ganga 0 ma 2 sarasvati 0 lakshmi 0 sri 1 padma 1 narayani 0 tara 0 gayatri 0 tulasi 0 yogamaya 0 Shaivite kali 1 uma 0 parvati 0 durga 0 maya 16 devi 0 mahamaya 0 The Tradition of Sita-Rama ramayana 0 valmiki 0 tulsidas 0 rama 1 ramachandra 0 sita 0 janaki 0 hanuman 0 ravana 0 Some Shastra Titles, Important Names and Terms purana 0 vyasa 1 vyasadeva 0 mahabharata 0 veda 1 upanishads 0 agama 0 tantra 0 shastra 0 (correct spelling) shasters 1 samhita 0 sutra (s) 3 sama 0 rig 0 yajur 0 ayurveda 0 saddharma pundarika 0 bhagavadgita 0 bhagavat 1 bhagavatam 0 gita 1 jataka 0 hitopedesha 0 pancatantra 0 srimad bhagavatam 0 bhagavat purana 0 Mahatmas Identified Themselves as / with Buddhists buddha 18 buddhism 24 buddhist 13 bodhisattva 0 Aryan and Race Term Search arya 1 aryan 9 aryans 4 race 31 races 16 varna 0 dravidian 0 Material Modes of Nature sattva 0 raja 3 tama 0 guna 0 Some Additional Important Terms bhakti 0 buddhi 6 gopis, gopas 0 gandharvas 0 apsarasas 0 kinnaras 0 bhutas 0 manas 5 kama 12 jnana 0 vidya 4 dharma 0 karma 38 ahankara 0 tilaka 0 nyasa 0 amrita 0 ananda 3 reincarnation 8 reincarnating 4 amrita 2 elementaries 8 planetaries 5 akasa 13 yamaduttas 0 dasyas 0 yakshasas 0 rakshasas 0 Ages and Cycles and Related Names / Terms=20 mahavishnu 0 manvantara(s) 11 vivisvatamanu 0 manu(s) 0=20=20 praylaya 9 kalpa 1 yuga (s)1 sattya treta 0 dvarpara 0 kaliyuga 0 yuga avataras 0 Worship and Sacrifice Related Terms yagna 0 mantra 0 japa 0 puja 3 pujari 0 purohita 0 murti 0 soma 0 agni 0 yupa 0 nama 0 rupa 9 yoga 4 arati 0 tilaka 0 nyasa 0 Some Great Masters Accepted by the Vaishnavas nityananda 0 caitanya 0 madhva 0 jayatirtha 0 vyasatirtha 0 ramanuja 0 vallabha 0 vishnuswami 0 nimbarka 0 jayadeva goswami 0 caraka 0 shankara 0 Some Master Titles and Lineage Words rishis 3 dhyan chohans 21 acharya 0 goswami 0 alvars 0 sadhu 0 saddhus 1 sampradaya 0 parampara 0 diksha 0 siksha 0 sannyasi 0 Finite and Supreme Spirit Words atma 5 atman 2 jiva 2 jivatma 4 paramatma 0 parabrahmn 6 brahman 1 brahma 6 monad (s) 18 =20=20 Of the above, the more significant number of references ranks as so,=20 with the Vaishnava Sanskrit-related Shastra names and terms marked=20 with an asterix *... *karma 38 race 31 *buddhism 24 dhyan chohans 21 (identified with the Theravadin Buddhist=20 term "Tatagathas")=20 *deva(s) 21 (not used as a name of Krishna-Vishnu) *buddha 18 (not used as an Avatara name of Sri Vishnu)=20 monad(s) 18 *nirvana 17 (not used as a name of Sri Krishna) *maya 16 (never referring to either Mahamaya Devi or Yoga Maya Devi)=20=20 races 16 *devachan 15 (identified with the Sukhavati )=20 *deva chan 13 (identified with the Sukhavati) *akasa 13 *arya, aryan(s) 14 (often used inauthentically to refer to a 'race') *loka(s) 14 ( worlds, transcendental lokas or even the=20 Sukhavati 'Pure Land' Vaikunthalokas of Vaishnavism are described in=20 the Deva Chan of the Theosophical System, and called in some=20 places 'imaginary'. ) *buddhist 13 *kama 12 (not used as a Name of Sri Krishna, or for the late=20 Kamadeva / Eros, generally used as mayavic force of desire) reincarnation / ing 12 *manvantaras 11 *pralaya 9 *rupa 9 (associated with the rupa-loka or world of form) elementaries 8 (associated with 'angel guides') *parabrahmn 6 (not identified as the form of Vishnu Para-brahman,=20 related to the doctrines of His Brahma-jyoti and omnipresent=20 Paramatman) *brahma 6 (not identified as the Guna Avatara of Vishnu in the mode=20 of raja guna)=20 planetaries 5 (what monads may become) Of the above Vedic-Vaishnava Sanskrit names and terms, their=20 corresponding subjects can be found treated elaborately in the=20 ancient Vaishnava Scriptures / Shastras, such as the Srimad=20 Bhagavatam (also called the Bhagavat Purana BP ). This text is=20 readily available now with the Sanskrit Devagnagari Text, Roman=20 transliteration, English Translation and elaborate traditional Madhva- Gaudiya lineage commentary by HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, through=20 the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (BBT). Sections regarding the=20 structure of a material universe, the kalpas, yugas, manvantaras and=20 various manus of a single material universe are spread throughout the=20 Cantos of the Bhagavat Purana, one of the principle Scriptures of=20 Krishna-centric Vishnu worship (Vaishnavism). For example, Canto 2=20=20 describes the Universal Form of Vishnu as Purusha, His omnipresence=20 as the Supersoul / Paramatman, the process of creation, including=20 Purusha Sukta, the Yugas and Yuga Avataras of Vishnu. Canto 3=20 Chapter 6 describes the creation of the varnas from the self- sacrifice of Purusha, Chapter 8 the manifestation of Brahma from=20 Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, Chapter ten the divisions of a cosmic creation=20 and its planetary systems, demigods etc., and Chapter 11 Brahma's=20 days and nights. Canto 4 Chapter 1 describes the daughters of=20 Manu. Canto 5 chapters 20-26 describe the lokas and how they are=20 sustained by Vishnu as Ananta Deva. Canto 8 Chapter 1 again=20 describes the Manu Prajapatis. Canto 9 Chapter 2 describes the sons=20 of Manu. Throughout this literature, all of the above marked Sanskrit=20 names, words and terms are found in their authentic ancient THEISTIC=20 context. Akasa, karma, kama, reincarnation, the devas and devis as=20 expansions and incarnations of Deva Deva (Krishna the God of gods)=20 and Shakti-Devi are all described in elaborate detail. Much of what=20 is used by the Mahatmas that is SANSKRIT seems to come from this=20 Vaishnava text. However, the corpus of Vaishnava scriptures is so=20 vast, and treats these subjects from so many different angles, that=20 it is possible that the Mahatmas formed their ideas from more than=20 one of these related Vishnu-centric literatures. The Mahabharata is=20 another ancient Vaishnava literature treating all these subjects. The=20 familiar Bhagavad-Gita- or Gitopanishad, is a small part of the=20 enormous Epic, the Mahabharata.=20 Although it is obvious from reading these Vaishnava 'Shasters' that=20 many of the Mahatmas' ideas come from them, one thing is certain=20 though, the THEISTIC CONTEXT AND CONTENT WAS SELECTIVELY EDITED OUT=20 of these sources in the Mahatma's version of it all. This editing- out-God from His own revelatory tradition has precedence before the=20 Mahatmas in Indian religious traditions, because the extreme mayavadi=20 (atheistic) 'Advaitis', Jains, Theravadin Buddhists and others have=20 been doing it for centuries. The most ancient stratum of Vedic=20 literature in Sanskrit is clearly devoted to Vishnu (see the Purusha=20 Sacrifice of Vishnu in the Purusha Sukta), as the origin of the=20 cosmos and the gods. Each attempt to remove Vishnu Purusha from the=20 core of His revelatory tradition has resulted in the innovation and=20 diffusion of a 'new' Indic religious tradition that denies its=20 genealogy of ideas. These later traditions go on using the language=20 and categories etc. of Vaishnavism, but without crediting their=20 source. So, the Mahatmas are doing nothing new. They wanted the=20 creation, or kingdom of God without God, and like all the other later=20 corrupting traditions before, them they just took what they wanted=20 from the GSS of Vaishnavism, without any historical self-honesty at=20 all. Hind sight is 20-20, so from our vantage point now, with the=20 literatures available, we can trace-out the history of the Mahatmas'=20 ideas, both directly from Vaishnava sources and indirectly through=20 Mahayana Buddhism and Sikhism.=20=20 Finally I want to emphasize that when a tradition develops some part=20 of its inheritance in keeping with the GSS principle, that there is=20 no creation of a new religion with historical amnesia ! Instead the=20 parent tradition and its new off-spring have an acknowledged and=20 friendly relationship. There is a positive relationship between the=20 older and younger faith traditions, who mutually acknowledge each=20 other. Thus among Nepalese Mahayana Buddhists and Vaishnavas who are=20 not in denial about the identity of Vishnu as Lokesvara, the faithful=20 often attend both Buddhist Stupas like Syambhunatha and Bodhinatha=20 and Vishnu temples in the same day. They observe both Buddhist and=20 Vaishnava holy days, and keep the same Vaishnava-Jewish related=20 Saturday (Sanivara) Sabbath. They worship the same forms of Vishnu=20 and Lokesvara with the same Sanskrit mantrams and mandalas. They=20 perform closely related rites. All this is directly related to=20 Tibetan Buddhism in the most intimate way. Thus in "The Cult of Tara=20 Magic and Ritual in Tibet" by Stephan Beyer, (1978, University of=20 California Press, Berkeley, California ,USA (ISBN # 0-520-03635-2 ),=20 where the Sanskrit of the Tibetan Buddhist prayers and rituals is=20 given, these are obviously directly related to the Vaishnavism of the=20 Nepalese region.=20 While studying these connections in Nepal, I viewed thousands of=20 Nepalese and Tibetan Buddhist tangkas, temple murtis, yantras /=20 mandalas and other sacred art. The principle forms of Amitabha- Lokevara were forms of Krishna-Vishnu. The wrathful forms of Kalah=20 Bairab were those of Kalah Bairava Shiva, who significantly was=20 considered an emanation or manifestation of Lokesvara. All of the=20 beneficent and wrathful Rupas of Amitabha-Amitayus manifest through=20 the Sambhogya Kaya or Nirmanya Kaya of Avalokitesvara were clearly=20 associated with earlier Vaishnava traditions of Krishna-Vishnu. Thus=20 the Vedic Purusha Sukta Deva forms were all there, as were many of=20 the Puranic Lila Avatara Forms. For example, the Lila Forms of=20 Vishnu, described in the above text Bhagavat Purana, like Narasimha,=20 Varaha, Hayagriva, and Matsya, are worshiped BY BUDDHISTS in Nepal=20 and Tibet as the leontocephalous Nrsigha-Lokevara (Yahweh Tzbaoth),=20=20 the boar-headed Baraha-Lokesvar, horse headed Hayagriva-Lokesvara,=20 and the form of Lokesvara associated with the great Flood Story of=20 Manu and Manu's ark landing on the sacred Himalayan peak of Macchu=20 Pucchara (Matsya's Fin).=20=20=20 In conclusion, The Theosophical Mahatmas / Masters did not=20 acknowledge their historical debt to Vaishnavism in any way. They=20 may not have even known enough about the orthodox Bhakti Traditions=20 of India to even understand what they were dealing with. If Subbha=20 Rowe (27 references found to this name in the Mahatma Letters) was an=20 Advaiti, as claimed in the Letters, and he was a major contributor to=20 the Mahatmas' thought-system, then this would explain the use of=20 Vaishnava terms etc. outside of their original context and in an=20 atheistic system that stops short of the revelation of the=20 transcendental realm, Being and being. Like the Hindu Theravadin=20 Buddhist-related Advaitis, the Mahatmas misrepresented ideas from=20 Vaishnavism, and several other traditions of Buddhist and Hindu=20 thought by taking these out of their historical context and changing=20 their content. The result was a masterful work of confusion, in=20 which enormous effort was spent to synthesize a system of thought=20 created from numerous 'plagiarized', appropriated and often not well=20 understood sources. Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and=20 sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical=20 Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from=20 other sources, that were not properly credited by her. In the case=20 of the Sanskrit Content of the Mahatma Letters, this is again what=20 was obviously done. Ideas and language were appropriated principally=20 from classic Vaishnava Source-works in Sanskrit, and these were used=20 unjustifyably out of context and often with corrupted meaning to=20 create a world-view filled with a pathological obsession about race=20 in a Darwinist-related new evolutionary model. The challenging and=20 valuable ideas, which ARE THERE in the Mahatma Letters and other=20 Theosophical Society Writings, are not sui generis from the claimed=20 mystical Mahatmas, who were constructed as their mouth pieces. These=20 ideas were clearly collected piece-meal from much earlier Vaishnava=20 Sanskrit writings, with nothing new or original added. In fact, much=20 of the authentic value of the appropriated sources has been lost in=20 the rough handling of their ideas by the Theosophical Masters, who=20 were actually neophytes when compared to the real living masters of=20 those orthodox "shasters" traditions.=20=20 Furthermore, if the Mahatmas were really masters with such a high=20 time-free vantage-point, why did they not ever reveal the astounding=20 historical connections of Pure Land Buddhism to Krishna-Centric=20 Vaishnavism, and through Vaishnavism to the Mediterranean Proto- Catholic Jewish-related Heliopolitan Asyla Federations ? Did the=20 Mahatmas, who claimed to know about Egyptian and related western=20 esoteric traditions, simply forget to mention that the Lion Headed=20 form of Lokesvara-Vishnu is the Wrathful form of Krishna Kalah as=20 Haryeh / Aryeh (Yahu-Tzabaoth) in both the Bhagavad-Gita and Exodus=20 story? Did they forget to say that He was worshiped by the Persians=20 as Zervan, the Greeks as Zeus Chronus, the Romans as Jupiter=20 Saturnus, the Egyptians as Amun and the Kushites as Apademak ? Did=20 they just forget to tell us that the Flood-related form of Vishnu- Lokesvara is the Dagon, Atargatis, Nereus and Helios Delphinos=20 related form of Yahu who saved Noah-Manu-Deucalion etc.? Did they=20 forget to say that the Jewel in the Lotus is the Brahma-Samhita Hymn=20 related form of Krishna and His Adi Shakti Radha-Padme, who were=20 worshiped as RHODOS and RHODA or NYMPHOS and NYMPHIA (Kouros Helios=20 and Kore), on the pre-Minoan Era Isle of Rhodes in the Eastern=20 Mediterranean ? From their high vantage point overlooking history,=20 why did the Mahatmas' not tell divided mankind that Lokesvara, Vishnu=20 and the God of the Judeo-Catholic Tradition are the same historical=20 Deity ?=20 In a short 100 plus years anyone can now learn vastly more important=20 connections between the Eastern and Western Wisdom Traditions, than=20 what the Mahatmas taught, just by studying the current scientific=20 research literature in each field. The Mahatmas' knowledge was bound=20 by their mere mortal, time and circumstance frame of reference. They=20 were very intelligent and well-read. They exhibited familiarity with=20 certain forms of Buddhist and Hindu Advaiti teachings. They had an=20 obviously 'classical' western education, as well as a familiarity=20 with western occult / esoteric traditions. The Mahatmas were=20 clearly a collective effort of HPB and some of her friends. If they=20 had just had some self-honesty and presented their synthesis with=20 integrity under their own names, admitting its 'genealogy', it would=20 have stood on its own merit as a unique contribution to human=20 thought. However, the deception and hocus-pocus associated with the=20 Letters has cast an unfortunate pall over their whole project,=20 generally discrediting it. To finally assess the real contribution=20 of HPB's Theosophy, this pall must be removed for readers and truth- seekers to appreciate the genealogy of her / The Mahatmas thought,=20 and understand what they were the actual Masters of.=20=20 I look forward to the work of other Vaishnava and Buddhist Sanskrit=20 Scholars who will surely one day realize the importance of examining=20 ideas from their respective traditions found in the Mahatma Letters,=20 Stanzas of Dzyan and other Theosophical Society writings.=20 =20 From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 25 08:50:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 16:50:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 33808 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 16:50:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 16:50:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO parsec.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 16:50:44 -0000 Received: from [216.154.46.3] (helo=idirect.ca) by parsec.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18GMRU-0003ib-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:50:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE25539.4095C7FE@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:52:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <2b.31bfab33.2b132307@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Lets Check The Mahatma Letters: Step 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Hey, Thanks for responding, Leon. I knew if I preteded being brianmuehlbach I'd have a much better chance of at least getting some discussion started around here. Speculatively, Mauri PS Hee hee, just kidding! leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > Those kinds of theories are just that -- speculations and hypotheses which > are no better than opinions based on guesses based on observed material > objects and chemical processes that prove nothing about ontology or origins > -- since science hasn't the faintest idea what conscious is or came from, let > alone understanding the roots of matter itself. What science doesn't know > about the origin of Mankind could fill more books than has ever been written > or said about anything. Did you ever think that when theosophy talks of > Mankind, they are not referring to their physical body forms? Or, that the > word "man" actual means mind-being? Science still can't answer the question, > Which came first, the chicken or the egg, consciousness or mind, mind or > matter? When science can answer those questions, we'll start believing their > theories about mundane things, such as "mind beings" they erroneously label > "homo sapiens" and their origins. The theory of relativity that contradicted > all classical physics ideas about space and gravity did not come from direct > reductive scientific observation. Face it, your denials have no weight > whatsover, as proof that theosophy is false. > In a message dated 11/20/02 8:12:21 PM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: > >How to check claims in The Mahatma Letters ? Among a list of others, ============snip From bilmer@surfsouth.com Mon Nov 25 09:07:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:07:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 87854 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:07:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:07:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta02.durocom.com) (216.53.195.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:07:24 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.172.118]) by fl-mta02.durocom.com with SMTP id <20021125170722.MXPO4306.fl-mta02@default> for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:07:22 -0500 Message-ID: <002201c294a5$89cfb200$76ac80d8@default> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:09:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=56307847 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when a tree falls in the forest, if no ear is there to hear it, then no sound exists? That is, when the autumn leaves turn their golden yellows and orange REDS, if no eye is there to see it, then no color exists? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Stubbs" To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:40 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Actually, you said that "the color red does not exist", a very > > different statement. However, if you meant what you now wrote, I > will > > say that the existence or non-existence of Universals is still > unproven. > > I don't want to labor the point, but I am missing something here. > Given that the color red is an experience, how can anyone say that it > exists objectively? And given that it is an experiece, how can there > be any difference between the statement that "the experience of the > color red does not ecist" and the statement that "the color red does > not exist." > > Incidentally the distinction between phenomena (experience) and the > noumena (objectibe reality) is not something discovered by me. It > has been written about by philosophers in the west since the > seventeenth century and is generally accepted by scientists today. > It is also fundamental to Blavatsky's SD. although I have yet to meet > a Theosophist who understands what she says about it. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 09:23:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 70052 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:23:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 17:22:52 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:22:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Goswami's Parts III and IV Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5274 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Goswami, Thank you for posting both Parts III and IV of your essay to Theos- Talk. Your essay is quite interesting and contains much food for thought. Unfortunately, you have asserted many things but have not given the evidence and documentation that would allow your readers to judge whether your generalizations are valid or not. Hopefully at some point, you will provide some detailed examples of the documentation behind some of your generalized statements. For example, let us take just one small section of your essay. Let me quote it first: "Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from other sources, that were not properly credited by her. In the case of the Sanskrit Content of the Mahatma Letters, this is again what was obviously done. Ideas and language were appropriated principally from classic Vaishnava Source-works in Sanskrit, and these were used unjustifyably out of context and often with corrupted meaning to create a world-view filled with a pathological obsession about race in a Darwinist-related new evolutionary model. The challenging and valuable ideas, which ARE THERE in the Mahatma Letters and other Theosophical Society Writings, are not sui generis from the claimed mystical Mahatmas, who were constructed as their mouth pieces. These ideas were clearly collected piece-meal from much earlier Vaishnava Sanskrit writings, with nothing new or original added. In fact, much of the authentic value of the appropriated sources has been lost in the rough handling of their ideas by the Theosophical Masters, who were actually neophytes when compared to the real living masters of those orthodox "shasters" traditions." You cover alot of material in this one quoted extract but what inquiring readers need are detailed examples that would illustrate and document what you are asserting as being true. For example, consider the very first sentence above which reads: "Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from other sources, that were not properly credited by her." What do you mean by "not properly credited by her"? Have you read what the historian Michael Gomes has written about W.E. Coleman's plagiarism charge against Madame Blavatsky? See the relevant pages in Gomes' book "Theosophy in the Nineteenth Century" as well as his "The Dawning of the Theosophical Movement" for his detailed comments. Furthermore, take in to consideration the following. John Patrick Deveney, a Theosophical historian, in the latest issue (Oct. 2002) of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, writes about Coleman's claim against H.P. Blavatsky. Deveney writes: "His claim was that, while the learned QUOTATIONS from classical and other sources in H.P.B.'s books would lead the reader to believe she had read some 5,000 authors, in fact all of her references could be found in approximately 100 easily available, second-hand sources. This, Coleman, thundered, was plagiarism." Caps added (Theosophical History, Oct. 2002, p. 272.) Deveney's explanation here is indeed correct. And Coleman himself confirms it. To cite just one of many examples, Coleman writes: "By careful analysis I found that in compiling Isis about 100 books were used. About 1400 books are QUOTED from and REFERRED to in this work; but, from the 100 books which its author possessed, she copied everything in Isis taken from and relating to the other 1300. There are in Isis about 2100 QUOTATIONS from and references to books that were copied, at second-hand, from books other than the originals; and of this number only about 140 are credited to the books from which Madame Blavatsky copied them at second-hand." caps added. Coleman made the above statement in the 1890s. But notice what the scholar Deveney discovered: " In the spring and summer of 1881, however, when he himself was accused of plagiarism [by W.H. Burr], Coleman's definition [of plagiarism] was RATHER DIFFERENT." !! caps added. Deveney quotes Coleman's rebuttal to W.H. Burr's charges of plagiarisms. Coleman wrote: "Even were I guilty of what he [Burr] charges, it would not be plagiarism. To quote extracts from other authors found in Mr. B [urr]'s work is not plagiarism but to use Mr. Burr's own language or ideas, without credit, is plagiarist. This I have not done, and Mr. B. knows it." A little latter in the same piece, Coleman makes a very SIGNIFICANT statement and admission: "It is ridiculously absurd to call it plagiarism to use quotations from other writers, taken second-hand. All writers do it more or less, Mr. Burr [himself] very largely, and no one else ever called it plagiarism before." Indeed, it appears it was a common practice in the 19th century for authors to do exactly what Coleman says in the last extract. This is just one example of where your generalized statements need to be examined in greater detail in order to determine if what you assert has merit or not. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 25 09:25:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:25:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 24537 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:25:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:25:45 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GMzR-0002hv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:25:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE25D15.EFA44FB6@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:25:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Both the words "race" and "aryan" had special meanings in 1875 /1899 > which do not relate to later history including the period when the > political party of the Nazis in Germany and elsewhere, appropriations > of both these terms in the 1930s / 1940s and later, up to our modern > times. Actually, the term "Aryan" was used by European Supremicists before Blavatsky's time. Or, more precisely, misused (they mistook the Sanskrit "Aryan" for the name of a "race" of people, rather than a title of nobility). Blavatsky, in her usual manner, tried to correct this in her books, instead ending up associated with it (similarly to what happened with her magazine, "Lucifer"). Bart From amyac123@aol.com Mon Nov 25 09:27:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Amyac123@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:27:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 26797 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:27:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:27:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:27:52 -0000 Received: from Amyac123@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.8.3056e682 (16335) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:27:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8.3056e682.2b13b77a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:27:22 EST Subject: Re: Unsubscribe To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 113 From: amyac123@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=10016888 please take me off the theos-talk list. Thank you! From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 09:30:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:30:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 94103 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:30:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 17:30:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:30:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theosophy: An Introduction Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 834 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Theos-Talk readers may find the following online introduction to Theosophy of interest. "Theosophy: An Introduction" See: http://www.theosophical.org/intro/ Here are the chapter titles: Chapter 1 WHAT IS THEOSOPHY? Chapter 2a THE PLAN AND PURPOSE OF LIFE Chapter 2b THE PLAN AND PURPOSE OF LIFE Chapter 3 HUMAN BEINGS AND OUR BODIES Chapter 4 LIFE AFTER DEATH Chapter 5a REINCARNATION Chapter 5b REINCARNATION Chapter 6 KARMA Chapter 7 THE MONAD AND THE INDIVIDUALITY Chapter 8 UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD Chapter 9 THE POWER OF THOUGHT Chapter 10 THE QUESTION OF EVIL Chapter 11 THE RISE AND FALL OF CIVILIZATIONS Chapter 12 THE ANCIENT WISDOM IN THE MODERN WORLD Chapter 13 THE ANCIENT WISDOM IN DAILY LIFE Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 09:44:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:44:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 86515 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:44:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:44:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:44:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 17:44:01 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:44:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: WHEN WE DIE: An Online Book Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1031 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell WHEN WE DIE by Geoffrey Farthing In this book Geoffrey Farthing collates the extracts and information found in the letters of Master Koot Hoomi on the subject of life after death. Mr. Farthing has added helpful commentary. This book is now ONLINE at: http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm Copies of the book can also be purchased at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/farthingwwd.htm The contents of this valuable book is as follows: --------------------------------------------------- Preface Chapter I Introductory Chapter II Necessary Information Chapter III Man's Complex Constitution Chapter IV Dying and Soon After Chapter V The "Death Struggle and Gestation" State Chapter VI The Second Death and Devachan Chapter VII Rebirth and Karma Chapter VIII Exceptions: Suicides and Accidents Chapter IX Spiritualism Chapter X More about the Ego, and Immortality Chapter XI The Keys of Life Appendix Glossary ---------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From ramadoss@gbronline.com Mon Nov 25 09:54:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 17:54:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 39145 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 17:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 17:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 17:54:13 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.90.82] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A343DD201DE; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:52:03 -0600 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20021125114447.02ea78d0@mail.infohiwy.net> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:47:49 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Long Posts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 >From time to time we see postings of very long messages and one should appreciate the time it takes to key in long messages. However, it would be helpful to many subscribers like myself if at the beginning of the long posts, a short summary can be posted. This way, one can quickly understand what the writer is trying to say. Just my 0.02. mkr From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 25 10:10:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:10:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 1061 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:10:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:10:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO parsec.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:10:25 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-33.look.ca ([216.154.45.224] helo=idirect.ca) by parsec.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18GNgb-0003pG-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:10:22 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE267E7.E929E6E7@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:11:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re noumena, phenomena, subjective/objective, matter/spirit . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I think I have permission to quote Somebody as long as I don't mention that author's name, so: <> Uh, I hope I'm not interrupting this list's meditation session, or anything. I write because it occurred to me that "objective/subjective" might be seen in terms of "matter/mental," or even, by extension, as "matter/mental/spirit," maybe. . . So if "noumena" (in terms of such as "intended reference to whatever might be the ground from which we establish our every-day reality," say . . .) is seen as "related to spirit," ("spirit" in terms of such as "intended reference to whatever might be the ground from which we establish our every-day transcendent reality," say . . .), then . . . one might speculate/theorize/t/Theosophize about the senses in which such as "objective reality" might be seen . . . If "objective reality" is seen in terms of "being noumenal," (as per Theosophy, say?), isn't that kind of statement comparable to such as: "matter and spirit are the same" . . . If so, if "matter and spirit" are "seen as the same," (as per Theosophy [?], however that "sameness" might be experienced in practice), then . . . one might tend to assume (?) that "we" (the "people on this plane") are (might be) something like matter/spirit focus points, as if we might be the lenses, or the means of tuning in, in some sense, (or in some by-productive sense, maybe . . .), of some "Higher perspective" or "Higher Self" or "Atma-Buddhi" . . . But if that's what's happening, (in part, in some sense . . .), one might ask how is it that we seem to have an "individualistic self-sense" . . . That is, could that "individualistic self sense" be, from an alternative "Higher perspective," something like a dream (or by-productive aspect, or the "ray" of Blavatsky . . .) from the point of view of that "Realer we" . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Really, I was just kidding (on Theos Talk) about being brianmuehlbach so as to get some discussions started. Really! From teos9@aol.com Mon Nov 25 10:19:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:19:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 97194 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:19:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:19:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:19:35 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.121.1a9092de (3964) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:19:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <121.1a9092de.2b13c3ad@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:19:25 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:27:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > Actually, the term "Aryan" was used by European Supremicists before > Blavatsky's time. Or, more precisely, misused (they mistook the Sanskrit > "Aryan" for the name of a "race" of people, rather than a title of > nobility). Blavatsky, in her usual manner, tried to correct this in her > books, instead ending up associated with it (similarly to what happened > with her magazine, "Lucifer"). > Hi Bart, Could you be a little more precise about who these "European Supremacists" were and how they were connected to Sanskrit philosophies and languages. How far back does this pre nazi, pre Blavatsky, European Supremacist group go, historically? Thanks Louis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 25 10:20:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:20:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 57734 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:20:58 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 74ECB2629CF for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:20:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001a01c294ae$a1332860$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy: An Introduction Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:15:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Yes, quite good. But on Theosophical Society in America's website http://www.theosophical.org/intro/chap1/Index.html - one gets the following: "Theosophy does not bind an individual to any particular belief or creed, but it is dedicated to furthering humanity's eternal search for the meaning and wholeness of life in a nonsectarian and nondogmatic way. The religions of the world are methods of this search and are therefore subjects for Theosophical study." Sweet thoughts, - that is if they were followed ! My view is this: But If the organization by the name Thesophical Society in America wants to help promote nonsectarian and nondogmatic views, then I think it should closely consider its own position. Their position on their - as I understand it - support for a personality like C. W. Leadbeater (d. 1933). (CWL). The involvement of CWL in a sexscandal is today a mystery, which remian unexlained by those who consider him to be a personality to support openly - just like that - as someone of importance to the theosophical cause. Although CWL did some good work, he certainly damaged the Thesophical cause, so VERY VERY much. And so much that HE even today - stands as a bar - to the respect for theosophy and the wisdom tradition of all ages past. And not to mention Annie Besants involvement in this case... Why on Earth does the organization the Theosophical Society - plaster themselves with such a Public Relation, which clearly today creates mistrust and fear among seekers of wisdom. The word "nonsectarian" in the above quote doesn't quite fit in with this particular organization it self - i.e. today year 2002. And that is a bad thing, which ought to be dealt with. What about if a "high-rank" member of the same Organization made a similar sexscandal today, what would the consequences be ? The same as those of Annie Besants ? God I hope not ! Oh dear, oh dear...when will people ever learn ? But the Ancient Teaching of Wisdom of all ages past will never give up its fight for TRUE and Honest teaching, which does NOT create fear, mistrust, and uncertainty about views and motives. The Organizatiopn mentioned above even has a Youth Group ! This said, I am happy to see, that they do not deny Blavatsky her say - and they still support her teachings. If they understand them ? Weel, I don't really think so. My view is: Always help - never hurt. And if you can't help, then at least seek to stop hurting. Sorry for being so blunt. But sometimes one has to say what one think about what is going on. Maybe I am wrong on my above assumptions, but try to understand why and how easy one arrives at them. To the readers: Feel free to do your best... from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:30 PM Subject: Theos-World Theosophy: An Introduction > Theos-Talk readers may find the following online introduction to > Theosophy of interest. > > "Theosophy: An Introduction" > See: http://www.theosophical.org/intro/ > > Here are the chapter titles: > > Chapter 1 WHAT IS THEOSOPHY? > Chapter 2a THE PLAN AND PURPOSE OF LIFE > Chapter 2b THE PLAN AND PURPOSE OF LIFE > Chapter 3 HUMAN BEINGS AND OUR BODIES > Chapter 4 LIFE AFTER DEATH > Chapter 5a REINCARNATION > Chapter 5b REINCARNATION > Chapter 6 KARMA > Chapter 7 THE MONAD AND THE INDIVIDUALITY > Chapter 8 UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD > Chapter 9 THE POWER OF THOUGHT > Chapter 10 THE QUESTION OF EVIL > Chapter 11 THE RISE AND FALL OF CIVILIZATIONS > Chapter 12 THE ANCIENT WISDOM IN THE MODERN WORLD > Chapter 13 THE ANCIENT WISDOM IN DAILY LIFE > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 10:21:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:21:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 21518 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:21:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 18:21:35 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:21:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Some Recommended Books on H.P. Blavatsky and Theosophy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2326 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below I give a selected list of highly recommended books on Blavatsky and Theosophy. These titles are now online courtesy of the Canadian Theosophical Association. --------------------------------------------- H.P.Blavatsky: The Light Bringer by Geoffrey A. Barborka http://www.theosophical.ca/HPB%20Light%20Bringer.htm The Secret Doctrine, Volume III (First published 1897) by H.P.Blavatsky http://www.theosophical.ca/SecDoctrine3A.htm Theosophical Light on the Christian Bible By Henry T. Edge http://www.theosophical.ca/LightOnBible.htm Theosophy: Its Beneficent Potentialities By Geoffrey A. Farthing http://www.theosophical.ca/TheosPotentialities.htm When We Die by Geoffrey A. Farthing http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm There is No Religion Higher than Truth Gardner Developments in The Theosophical Society [concerning C.W. Leadbeater and Annie Besant] by E.L. Gardner http://www.theosophical.ca/NoReligion.htm The Early Teachings of the Masters (1881-1883) compiled and edited by C. Jinarajadasa http://www.theosophical.ca/EarlyTeachings.htm Christos: Religion of the Future by William Kingsland http://www.theosophical.ca/Christos.htm Concerning H.P.B: Stray Thoughts on Theosophy by G.R.S. Mead http://www.theosophical.ca/Concerning%20HPB.htm Inaugural Address of the President-Founder of the Theosophical Society (1875) by H. S. Olcott http://www.theosophical.ca/Inaugural%20.htm The Count de Saint-Germain and H.P.B.: Two Messengers of the White Lodge by H.S. Olcott http://www.theosophical.ca/SaintGermain.htm Philosophy of the Bhagavad-Gita by T. Subba Row http://www.theosophical.ca/PhiloBhagavad.htm The Occult World [First major book on H.P. Blavatsky published 1881] by A.P.Sinnett http://www.theosophical.ca/OccultWorld.htm Man: Fragments of a Forgotten History by: "Two Chelas" in the Theosophical Society [First edition 1885] http://www.theosophical.ca/ManFragments.htm Theosophical Gleanings [A Commentary on "The Secret Doctrine"] [Published during HPB's lifetime in the pages of "Lucifer"] by Two Students http://www.theosophical.ca/TheosGleanings.htm Modern Theosophy: An Outline of Its Principles by Claude Falls Wright http://www.theosophical.ca/Moderntheos.htm ----------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Nov 25 10:45:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:45:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 19040 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:45:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:45:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:45:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 22246 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:46:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.240) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:46:05 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.240 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 13:46:05(EST) on November 25, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.240 To: Subject: an open forum Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:45:01 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01c294b2$c64b0510$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004201c293ab$03108460$ce92a483@opasia.dk> From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Morten: People from any background are welcome, but they should come as fellow seekers and not as missionaries solely seeking to discredit everything but their approach in an attempt to seek converts. > I also think we will have to be at least a little patient from time to > time. True. But sometimes it's difficult to decide when too much time has passed and problems aren't getting solved. Sometimes things correct themselves. Other times, intervention may be needed, especially when many people from all sorts of backgrounds are calling for something to be done. The best way to deal with a misunderstanding is to ask someone to explain what they are saying that we disagree with. Perhaps they did not mean it the way it sounded. And we can also put in our own words what someone said, and see if they agree with how we put it. > My mind tend to think about - the debates in the olden days like the ones > between Shankaracharya and other sages It could start if we write our best and highest ideas and respond thoughtfully to what others say. I picture the list as a microcosm of the bigger theosophical community. It's not a unified group of like-minded disciples of a single guru dedicated to a particular spiritual path. Rather, it is a meeting of minds across many different cultures, backgrounds, outlooks, roles in life, and of different paths. It has the potential of something higher than the homogeneous unity of a single teacher's disciples; it has the potential of a form of heterogeneous unity. > But the need for a kind of 'open' place, where debates can run - somewhat > more freely is noted. > And that is what Theos-talk is doing in at present. > If the members were centered more around a teacher, then the attitude > would > maybe be different on Theos-talk - > depending on the kind of leadership of the teacher. Even if he was a very > very friendly and democratic one. >:-) There are two parts to an interchange. First is content and second is process. The content is philosophical, metaphysical, intellectual, spiritual inquiry, often with some tie to theosophical ideas, but not limited to any particular doctrinal outlook. The process involves how we treat each other and the dynamics of our interchanges. The topics are intended to be open, although respectful of the others on the list. The process part, which involves how we interact with each other, is equally important. > Sometimes some talk about to many emails are being made - and that their > e-mail box get overcrowded or the like. > What is the policy on that? I'd say that should not be a problem. It's easy to delete messages that we don't have time to read. The longer the message, or the more difficult it is to read, the less likely it is that someone will take time to read it. People should feel free to write as much as they want, but if they want comments and feedback, they need to be short and to the point. -- Eldon From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 25 10:52:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 46829 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO parsec.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:52:12 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-06-11.look.ca ([216.154.46.11] helo=idirect.ca) by parsec.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18GOL3-0004DK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:52:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE271B7.527952C@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:53:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <4.2.2.20021125114447.02ea78d0@mail.infohiwy.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World Long Posts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Yes, sounds OK. But I wonder if some of our summaries might kind of tend to backfire, even when place at the ends of some of our posts. For example, a couple of days ago, I ended a post with something like: Or, in simpler terms, watch out for those wooden nickels. That is, after reading certain kinds of summaries, (especially after cerain kinds of posts), well . . . Speculatively, Mauri ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > From time to time we see postings of very long messages and one should > appreciate the time it takes to key in long messages. However, it would be > helpful to many subscribers like myself if at the beginning of the long > posts, a short summary can be posted. This way, one can quickly understand > what the writer is trying to say. Just my 0.02. > > mkr > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 25 10:59:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 18:59:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 82202 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 18:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 18:59:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 18:59:27 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GOS7-0000v3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:59:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE2730A.712EDB55@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:59:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Long Posts References: <4.2.2.20021125114447.02ea78d0@mail.infohiwy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 I am in more agreement with you on this issue than usual. This was what I was talking about when I suggested putting meaningful subject lines, rather than the "TO: Whoever" that was becoming popular. It seems to have worked; I have noticed a lot more varied activity here since real subjects were put in. ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > From time to time we see postings of very long messages and one should > appreciate the time it takes to key in long messages. However, it would be > helpful to many subscribers like myself if at the beginning of the long > posts, a short summary can be posted. This way, one can quickly understand > what the writer is trying to say. Just my 0.02. > > mkr > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 25 11:03:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 19:03:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 65538 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 19:03:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 19:03:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 19:03:34 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GOW5-0006sU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:03:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE27400.41C84521@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:03:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget References: <121.1a9092de.2b13c3ad@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 teos9@aol.com wrote: > Could you be a little more precise about who these "European Supremacists" > were and how they were connected to Sanskrit philosophies and languages. How > far back does this pre nazi, pre Blavatsky, European Supremacist group go, > historically? I would like to; unfortunately, I cannot remember the name of the actual book, and there's nobody I can ask about it until tomorrow. I am trying standard Internet research techniques, but with the tremendous amount of information irrelevant to my point but with similar words, it's hard. Essentially, though, it comes from the early 19th century. Bart From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Nov 25 11:06:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 19:06:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 95697 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 19:06:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 19:06:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 19:06:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 26060 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 19:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.240) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 19:07:16 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.240 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 14:07:16(EST) on November 25, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.240 To: Cc: "'Ken Small'" Subject: RE: Theos-World WHEN WE DIE: An Online Book Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:06:10 -0800 Message-ID: <002d01c294b5$bc8465a0$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I wonder if they asked Geoffrey Farthing or Point Loma Publications about computerizing it before putting it online. Is the online copy of the book from a scan? There are several books that could go online if permission were obtained from the appropriate people. I have, for instance, an electronic copy of DEITY, COSMOS AND MAN by Geoffrey Farthing in Wordperfect, which represents how I initially helped set it up for publication when I was with PLP. It could go online too, if it were ok. Perhaps Ken Small and Geoffrey Farthing could let us know what their thoughts are on the matter? -- Eldon > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel H. Caldwell [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:44 AM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World WHEN WE DIE: An Online Book > > WHEN WE DIE by Geoffrey Farthing > > In this book Geoffrey Farthing collates the extracts and information > found in the letters of Master Koot Hoomi on the subject of life > after death. Mr. Farthing has added helpful commentary. > > This book is now ONLINE at: > > http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm > > Copies of the book can also be purchased at: > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/farthingwwd.htm > > The contents of this valuable book is as follows: > --------------------------------------------------- > > Preface > > Chapter I Introductory > > Chapter II Necessary Information > > Chapter III Man's Complex Constitution > > Chapter IV Dying and Soon After > > Chapter V The "Death Struggle and Gestation" State > > Chapter VI The Second Death and Devachan > > Chapter VII Rebirth and Karma > > Chapter VIII Exceptions: Suicides and Accidents > > Chapter IX Spiritualism > > Chapter X More about the Ego, and Immortality > > Chapter XI The Keys of Life > > Appendix > > Glossary > > ---------------------------------------- > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 11:10:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 19:10:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 31395 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 19:10:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 19:10:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 19:10:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 19:10:52 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:10:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002201c294a5$89cfb200$76ac80d8@default> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1754 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.226.86 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "Bill Meredith" wrote: > If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when a tree falls in the > forest, if no ear is there to hear it, then no sound exists? That is, when > the autumn leaves turn their golden yellows and orange REDS, if no eye is > there to see it, then no color exists? Almostt. Red is an experience. It presumably maps to electomagnetic enegry which vibrates at a certain rate. But red ia a representation in consciousness of an objective reality and not the reality itself. To assume because somethign is red in your experience it is red in objective fact is called naive realism. This idea is quite mainstream and orthodox and generally accepted among philosophers and scientists. There is a separate problem of whether being exists in the avsence of consciousness. This is how I interpret the emergence of Being from Non-Being. What is referred to here is actually the emergence of consciousness from unconsciousness. This is the more difficult of the two ideas to wrap your mind around. It is well expressed in an anecdote which was quoted by Bertrand Russell from some source I do not remember. Presumably after Berkeley published his famous theory of subjective idealism in the eighteenth century, someone wrote the following bit of doggerel and put it on a bulletin board: A Cambridge undergraduate thinks God Must find it exceedingly odd That the flowers and trees Should continue to be When there's no one about in the quad. The following day someone had appended the following to the preceding: Sir, your astonishnent's odd I am always about in the quad And that's why the trees Shall continue to be, They're observed by Yours, Faithfully, God. From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 25 11:43:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 19:43:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 79197 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 19:41:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 19:41:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 19:41:30 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GP6n-0006Pn-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:41:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE27CE3.D0BFC095@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:41:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget References: <121.1a9092de.2b13c3ad@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 teos9@aol.com wrote: > Could you be a little more precise about who these "European Supremacists" > were and how they were connected to Sanskrit philosophies and languages. How > far back does this pre nazi, pre Blavatsky, European Supremacist group go, > historically? Here's a cite: http://www.greeninformation.com/German%20Invention%20of%20Race.htm From samblo@cs.com Mon Nov 25 12:26:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 20:26:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 71778 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 20:26:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 20:26:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 20:26:17 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.c1.2abffda0 (4468) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:26:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:26:13 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Synthetic vs. authentic; why genealogical dissociation occurs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Leon, Same for me, I kept remembering the cautions about how Issis Unveiled had purposeful double blinds and intentional outrages intended to make the faint hearted or dilettantes blow off and close the book. I had read that the work by Gurjeff was intentionally the same way, but it was much worse than Blavatsky! Lol. John From levey_steven@hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 12:40:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 20:40:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 2462 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 20:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 20:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.15.131) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 20:40:51 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:40:50 -0800 Received: from 67.227.11.180 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:40:50 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:40:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Nov 2002 20:40:50.0960 (UTC) FILETIME=[F11D7100:01C294C2] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.180] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Dear Sir-It is clear to me that your eruditneness regarding the lineage of these things is profound, and far beyond me as a student. But, I have something to say because I believe there are other perspectives (at least 0ne) to take regrading the Mahatmas that are as self-validateing to this student as your learned perspective is to you. I was a member of the T.S 30 years ago and after a short stay of a couple of years, I joined the United Lodge of Theosophists. As a student of ancient wisdom in general I developed a focus upon the concept of Mahatmas, primarily because the concept of Masters of Wisdom as brothers and sincere spiritual human beings who became what they are through their own self-devised effort, is very motivating. And that is how they are characterized in true Theosophical writings. Now, you may feel, that becoming "what they are" is erroneous and therefore should certainly not be emulated. And, it seems, your decision would be made based upon what you have perused of the "Mahatma Letters". Frankly I would and actually felt similarly, if they were all I was steering my studies by. My study and the closest students within my circle of study feel as if they (The Mahatma Letters)are nearly impossible to use since their context or focus seemed to be to individual students. They are valid as productions of the beings attributed to, but their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student on the original receiving end. Therefore, and as such, they should never have been published to a general audience. I read them when they came my way as a member of the T.S. At that time, as I do when I read something difficult to characterize or to practically use, I put them on a "back burner", so to speak. Upon spending many years studying HPB's The Secret Doctrine along with her collective writtings as well as Willam Quan Judge's, Robert Crosbie, and others, it became clear to me that students who flaunt knowledge of the Mahatma Letters are doing so for some egocentric purpose. Why? Because when you place what the Mahatmas have said in the context in which they are placed in thoughtful writtings aimed at giving the student as much context as possible in which to understand their wisdom, one might learn something useful. Otherwise, the Mahatma Letters stand only as an inigma. Real, but rather practically useless. Those in HPB's direct lineage, which leaves out many, if not most writers in the Thesophical Society, who have recieved further instruction from the Lodge of Mahatmas, have never given a collection of the Mahatma letters to be printed. They have ALWAYS been exerpted and put in the context of principled ideation regarding a subject matter in discussion. Why exerpted? Because it is clear to students of the Wisdom religion, that the Chelas of Mahatmas are given instructions as to how the wisdom of the Teacher will be used. This trust is beyond question amongst those so chosen. In fact that is part and parcel of the Teacher-Desciplic realtionship. None the less, each student is implored to study on their own and to draw their own conclusions. Perhaps, more importantly, is the ideal of putting to work the best ethical thought, word and deed that one can. The great Paramitas are most always overlooked by the phenomena addicted student. This great ethical teaching is pronounced by HPB and Her Teachers as the paramount motive behind the Theosophical Movement. This is true now and I know it was true in HPB's day. And disscusion of high beings and their powers are a terrible trap. AS can be the trap of high erudition becaue it can become an end in itself. The path which it uncovers may seem not as "tasty" to the mind, as the nearly tactle feeling of accruing knowledge, which leaves the mystically inclined, ethical student within, simply ignored. The becoming of the Pratyeka Buddha is at the crown of this while the Nirmanakaya is the product of the practice of the Heart Doctrine. These choices need to be made and one is making them by our inclinations whether we know it or not. A good thing I say. Sincerely-Steven Levey _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From samblo@cs.com Mon Nov 25 12:42:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 20:42:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 6267 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 20:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 20:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 20:42:53 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.cc.15883f28 (4468) for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:42:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:42:46 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Steve, Well, you have delved in Catholicism where I have not search that deeply. One monitor of mine was the consideration that many of the high potentates of the Church were literally Franchises and Fiefdoms of men who for the requisite fee purchased the office, stature and mantle, literally some had no qualification at all, others were illiterate. I would like and appreciate a view from your perspective of which you came to consider as expressly "Initiate" by name and why as this would be a stimulating sharing. I might ask as regards Mead and a system whether you read or have his "Orpheus" in which he delineates the Orphic Theogony with many schematic inserts? John From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 13:34:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 57717 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 21:34:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 21:34:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:34:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Some Comments on Publication of The Mahatma Letters and HPB's Esoteric Writings Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 11321 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Some Comments on Publication of The Mahatma Letters and HPB's=20 Esoteric Writings by Daniel H. Caldwell [These comments formed one message in a discussion held on "Theos-L"=20 regarding the value of The Mahatma Letters [available online at: http://mahatmaletters.net ], and of how appropriate it=20 may be for their publication and public discussion.] One of the Masters (K.H.) wrote the following concerning the=20 publication of his own letters and notes to Sinnett: "The letters, in short, were not written for publication or public=20 comment upon them, but for private use, and neither M. nor I would=20 ever give our consent to see them thus handled." =97 Mahatma Letter No. 63 One should read the whole letter from which I have quoted in order to=20 see the context in which those words were made. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-63.htm ] But there is another letter from the Mahatma K.H. which throws=20 additional light on the issue of publishing the letters from the=20 Masters. In the summer of 1884, Mohini Chatterji and Laura C.=20 Holloway were writing a book on Theosophy entitled Man: Fragments of=20 Forgotten History. Both Mohini and Laura were chelas of K.H. In a=20 letter addressed to Mohini, Master K.H. wrote: "You may, if you choose so, or find necessity for it, use in Man [the=20 above titled book] or in any other book you may chance to be=20 collaborating for, anything I may have said in relation to our secret=20 doctrines in any of my letters to Messrs. Hume or Sinnett. Those=20 portions that were private have never been allowed by them to be=20 copied by anyone; and those which are so copied have by the very fact=20 become theosophical property. Besides, copies of my letters =97 at any rate those that contained my teachings =97 have always been sent by my order to Damodar and Upasika [H.P.B.], and some of the portions=20 even used in The Theosophist. You are at liberty to even copy them=20 verbatim and without quotation marks. ... Thus not only you, a chela=20 of mine, but anyone else is at liberty to take anything, whole pages,=20 if thought proper, from any of my 'copied' letters and convert=20 their 'dross' into pure ore of gold, provided they have well grasped=20 the thought. Show this to L.C.H. who was already told the same. =97 Letter 39 in Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series [Man: Fragments of Forgotten History is available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/ManFragments.htm ] It should also be noted that a great deal of the teaching letters=20 from K.H. and M. were quoted in the following books published in the=20 1880s:=20 =20 * The Occult World by A.P. Sinnett. (First edition published 1881) [Available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/OccultWorld.htm ] * Esoteric Buddhism by A.P. Sinnett. (First edition published 1883) * The Occult World by A.P.S. See 4th English edition, 1884, Appendix,=20 pp. 145-149 for an additional KH letter. [Available online at:=20 http://www.theosophical.ca/OccultWorld.htm ] =20 * Man: Fragments of Forgotten History by Two Chelas [Chatterji and=20 Holloway) (First edition, published 1885) [Available online at:=20 http://www.theosophical.ca/ManFragments.htm ] * The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky. (First published 1888). See=20 especially Vol. I where H.P.B. quotes from several of KH's letters to=20 Sinnett. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-08.htm and http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm] * In additional to the above books, excerpts from the Masters'=20 letters were published in various articles in The Theosophist (1881- 1883). * Also W.J. Judge published lengthy extracts from K.H.'s letters to=20 Sinnett dealing with Kamaloka and Devachan. See The Path, August,=20 1889, Nov., 1889, May, 1890 and June, 1890. These articles have been=20 reprinted by The Theosophy Company, Los Angeles, in their compilation=20 Theosophical Articles and Notes, 1985, pp. 236-247. * H.P.B. also quoted extracts from KH's Letters to Sinnett in the=20 pages of Lucifer. * Judge published the Prayag Letter [also contained in The Mahatma=20 Letters to A. P. Sinnett] in The Path in the early 1890s. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm ] And there are many more . . . .=20 It would be an interesting exercise to take a copy of The Mahatma=20 Letters to A. P. Sinnett [ http://mahatmaletters.net ] and underline=20 in red all the passages that have been published in the above sources. Directing attention back to KH's letter to Mohini in which mention is=20 made of the "copied letters" which have "become theosophical=20 property", Francesca Arundale, an early Theosophist, had "three=20 manuscript books" of "these early teachings" from the Masters.=20 Evidence indicates that Sinnett copied these "teachings" from the=20 letters of the Masters and sent them to London for the benefit of=20 Arundale and other students of Theosophy. These "teaching letters" as=20 found in Arundale"s manuscript books were eventually published by C.=20 Jinarajadasa in 1923 under the title The Early Teachings of the=20 Masters 1881 to 1883. This book by Jinarajadasa was published some=20 months before A. Trevor Barker published the complete collection of=20 letters from the Masters K.H. and M. in London in Dec. 1923. [Jinarajadasa's compilation is available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/EarlyTeachings.htm ] In the light of the above historical facts, would ULT students (who=20 have usually objected to the publication of The Mahatma Letters) be=20 willing to study The Early Teachings of the Masters? Would they be=20 willing to publicly circulate this volume by Jinarajadasa or a=20 similarly compiled work? Now another issue. ULT associates privately read and study The=20 Mahatma Letters. But if we are to take literally and at face value=20 the Master K.H.'s prohibition on the publishing of the letters in=20 their entirety, then once any ULT student reads this prohibition,=20 would not reason and logic dictate that he should close the book and=20 never pick The Mahatma Letters up again? As H.N. Stokes once wrote=20 about this very subject, If The Mahatma Letters are private documents today, no one without a=20 diploma of sanctity and a special permit from the Mahatmas is more=20 entitled to read them than any others.=20 Speaking of H.N. Stokes, the editor of The O.E. Library Critic=20 (Washington, D.C.), Dr. Stokes wrote at least two articles on the=20 ULT's attitude toward The Mahatma Letters. The articles are: "Is the ULT Boycotting The Mahatma Letters?" (The O.E. Library=20 Critic, April, 1934.) "Magazine Theosophy Places The Mahatma Letters on ULT Index=20 Expurgatorius." (The O.E. Library Critic, May-June, 1935. Stokes notes that soon after The Mahatma Letters were first published=20 in London in Dec., 1923, Theosophy Magazine (the L.A.-based ULT=20 periodical) "hailed" the publication of these Letters as follows: "These letters are, beyond all question the one great and final=20 contribution to Theosophical literature and history since The Secret=20 Doctrine. They solve the hitherto baffling and inscrutable mysteries=20 in connection with the public course of the Movement, by bringing to=20 light the missing links of its degradation through theosophists,=20 theosophical societies, and the world at large. ... Let all true=20 Theosophists rejoice at the light that is now shed on the dark places=20 of the past and present." =97 Theosophy Magazine, March, 1924 But Stokes points out that four ULT magazines (including Theosophy=20 Magazine) subsequently had the practice of quoting from The Mahatma=20 Letters but never telling their readers that they were quoting from=20 the book entitled The Mahatma Letters To A. P. Sinnett. Stokes found=20 that in the years 1928-1933, these four ULT magazines had quoted 87=20 times from the Letters. Stokes writes: "Of the 87 quotations from The Mahatma Letters only one gives=20 reference; the others afford not the slightest clue to the source,=20 not the slightest possibility of the student locating it without=20 laborious search. He is not even permitted to know the existence of=20 such a book as The Mahatma Letters." =97 The O.E. Library Critic, April, 1934 In the other article cited above, Stokes discusses an article=20 published in Theosophy Magazine for February, 1935. The anonymous ULT=20 associate writes for two or three pages on The Mahatma Letters but=20 then concludes: "All that is taught in the Letters is contained in The Secret=20 Doctrine ... and is there presented in proper form for students under=20 the direct instruction and sponsoring of the Mahatmas themselves. The=20 publication of the Mahatma Letters in violation of Their own=20 injunction, and recourse to these Letters [by Theosophical students]=20 instead of to The Secret Doctrine for instruction in Occultism, shows=20 the difference between true and false psychology. Mr. Sinnett's use=20 of the Letters was such as to close to him the door opened via H.P.B.=20 with the Mahatmas: What will be the effect of the unlawful=20 publication and use of them thus made possible to so many hopeless=20 Incurables in the Mysteries?" Stokes points out that several of the assertions made in this=20 quotation are not true. Stokes goes on to say: "But when the Theosophy Magazine writer speaks of 'false psychology'=20 and of 'hopeless Incurables in the Mysteries' one is prompted to ask=20 whether these rather strong terms do not apply to himself. He is=20 constantly referring in these articles to The Mahatma Letters.=20 Consequently he must have read them. If so, why does he do that which=20 he thinks it improper for others to do because of their private=20 nature? And why did the magazine Theosophy in its series [of=20 articles] later published as The Theosophical Movement [in 1925 as a=20 book] constantly quote from documents [written by H.P.B. and] marked=20 private and issued to E.S.T. members under pledge of secrecy? Are we=20 to suppose that this anonymous writer, or the editors of Theosophy=20 Magazine, are above all rules applying to lesser mortals? No, what is=20 sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If The Mahatma Letters=20 are private documents today, no one without a diploma of sanctity and=20 a special permit from the Mahatmas is more entitled to read them than=20 any others, or to discourage others from doing what he does himself=20 when it suits his purpose ... .Sensible students will not be deterred=20 by talk from those who do not practise what they preach." =97 The O.E. Library Critic, May-June, 1935. In the above quote from Stokes, he refers to the book The=20 Theosophical Movement issued by the top officials of the ULT, Los=20 Angeles, CA. Speaking of publishing "private and confidential" communications, in=20 Chapter XI ("Work of the Esoteric Section", pp. 163-177) of this ULT=20 1925 book, the anonymous author(s) quote(s) from two of H.P.B.'s E.S.=20 documents which were marked: "strictly private and confidential". The=20 author of this chapter XI writes: "Permissible extracts from the Preliminary Memorandum to the E.S.=20 applicants show her esoteric treatment." [Compare: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheTheosophicalMovement-Series/=20 in Chapter 11.] Then long extracts are given from this E.S. document. Permissible=20 extracts? Who gave the writer of this chapter permission to quote=20 from H.P.B.'s "strictly private and confidential" paper? This is not=20 discussed in the pages of The Theosophical Movement.=20 From jpcondick@btinternet.com Mon Nov 25 14:59:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 22:59:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 56976 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 22:59:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 22:59:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lutetium) (194.73.73.116) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 22:59:31 -0000 Received: from host213-122-104-101.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.104.101] helo=oemcomputer) by lutetium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #16) id 18GSCO-0003VM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:59:29 +0000 Message-ID: <00c601c294d6$289bb340$65687ad5@oemcomputer> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:25:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers Many thanks for your efforts Dallas. It is clearly understood here. Regards Jeremy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:34 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: "RACE," and 'ARYAN" Let Us Not Forget > Nov 25 2002 > > Dear Friends > > Both the words "race" and "aryan" had special meanings in 1875 /1899 > which do not relate to later history including the period when the > political party of the Nazis in Germany and elsewhere, appropriations > of both these terms in the 1930s / 1940s and later, up to our modern > times. > > The word "Aryan" is from old central Asia and means "noble." The > ancient Persians were denoted "Iranis" -- and the designation has been > revived -- " or "Aryans." > > > If one goes to the INDEX of The SECRET DOCTRINE (1888) one will find > adequate references that determine what was meant by H P B when she > used those terms. > > > "Race" was used as a measure of TIME, and the development of certain > capacities, to which the whole of humanity was subject during the time > when it went through seven changes during the period of a "GLOBE." A > "GLOBE' is one seventh of a "ROUND." "Race," as then used by H P B, > had nothing to do with the color of the skin. > > > RACE > > [Complexion and its changes are dealt with in the S D on pages: Vol. > II, 178, 227, 249-50, 282.] > [Differences between Races are defined in S D Vol. I xliv; ; II, > 103, 249-50, 607 ] > [Origins were polygenetic S D I xxxv; 241, 574 ; II 139, 168, > 191fn, 249, 748 ] > [The dying out of races is explained: S D Vol. II 192, 195-6, > 443-5, 437, 609, 779-80 ] > [ The earliest races were boneless, ethereal, androgynous, astral, S > D II 46, 96, 108, 115-7, 131, 134, 149, 151, 160, 174, 191-2, 194, > 294, 583, 635, 704, ] > [ They were born from the "gods" S D I 323; II 86-7, 164, 198, > 507, 538 ] > [The effect of isolation on races: S D II 425 ] > [Hybrid "races" S D II 275, 714, 444 (new race springs from > hybrids) ] > ["Inferior" races : S D II 162, 249, 425 (a fallacy), 721, ] > [Three great "races" only remain: S D II 471fn, 780 ] > [Our "race" has reached the 5th sub-race S D II 471fn ] > [Savage besides civilized in all ages S D II 716 ] > > > Nowadays we refer to complexion when we mention race, and to physical > heredity, also to some of the vicissitudes that our ancestors have > been forced to undergo until a more reasonable sense of human balance > and equality > > > HEREDITY > > [Heredity-- Its causes S D I 223, II 421, ] > [Biogenetic Law S D II 659, ] > [Acquired characteristics: S D I 219, 223fn; II 711fn ] > [Transmission of atoms: S D II 671-2 > [Karma and S D II 178, ] > > > ANTHROPOIDS and APES > > [Anthropoids: S D II 688fn, ] > [Unnatural, accidental creation: S D II 261, ] > [Origin: S D I 185fn, II 184, 195, 200-1, 262, 286-8, 375, 679, > 688-9 ] > [Descended from man S D II 185, 187, 287-8, 676, 682, 688fn, ] > ["Common ancestor ?" S D II 646 ] > [Some will become "human" in this Round: S D I 184, II > 61-3 ] > [3rd ROUND ape-man: S D II 730 ] > [Will die out in our race S D I 184 ] > > > ARYAN ( Irani - Persian - Noble ) > > [Ancestors (of Egyptians S D II 328, 746 ); (Arabs are later S D > II 200} > [Born in the north S D II 426, 768 ] > [Atlanteans preceded and taught: S D II 144, 266fn, 352, 384,395, > 426, 495, 768, 776, ] > [Aryan Adepts fought Atlantean sorcerers S D II 225, 384, 495, ] > [5th race ( S D II 8, 10) is incorrectly called "Aryan" S D II > 433-4 ] > [Hindu, 1st sub-race of Aryans, almost 1 million years old S D II > 436fn, 449-451, 470-1, 609, ] > [Negroes, Mongols are of the Aryans S D II 607fn ] > [Europeans are later "aryans" S D I 425 ] > [Many colors S D II 249-50, 394, 426, 607fn ] > [2nd Sub-race built menhirs, etc...S D II 750 > [Present Kali-Yuga is of the Aryans S D I 644-5; II 147fn ] > > These are a few of the many references to pre-history given in The > SECRET DOCTRINE > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ================================= > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel H. Caldwell > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:06 AM > To: > Subject: Let Us Not Forget > > Even though Brian has been removed from Theos-Talk [that is my > understanding from Eldon's recent email], we should not forget that > Brian did bring to our forum some important issues that Blavatsky and > Theosophical students should ponder on. > > For example, the "race" issue and the use of the word "aryan" as > given in the various quotes from the Mahatma Letters and in the > Secret Doctrine need to be studied, discussed and understood. > > And I assume it was because of Brian that Goswami came to Theos- > Talk. That is good, because Goswami brings up underlying issues that > need to studied, discussed and understood by Theosophists. > > Daniel > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Nov 25 15:24:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 25 Nov 2002 23:24:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 14727 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2002 23:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Nov 2002 23:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2002 23:24:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.157] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Nov 2002 23:24:01 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:23:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Steven's comment on the Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 692 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Steven, you wrote in part: "My study and the closest students within my circle of study feel as if they (The Mahatma Letters)are nearly impossible to use since their context or focus seemed to be to individual students. They are valid as productions of the beings attributed to, but their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student on the original receiving end." You write that the Mahatma Letters are "nearly impossible to use." Why? Steven, could you clarify what you mean in the above passage? I am somewhat unclear what you are referring to when you write that "their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student of the original receiving end." Daniel From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 16:53:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 00:53:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 59783 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 00:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 00:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 00:53:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2002 00:53:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:53:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7700 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.156.76.65 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs In theos?talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Well, you have delved in Catholicism where I have not search that > deeply. I never really thought of it as that, since it has nothing to do with the modern religion (except inasmuch as the modern religion is an exoteric husk of the original.) One > monitor of mine was the consideration that many of the high potentates of > the Church > were literally Franchises and Fiefdoms of men who for the requisite fee > purchased > the office, stature and mantle Well, yes, I am not going to defend the catholic church. It is a fact that the original sect was rooted in Kabbalism, specifically the Merkabah and Yetzireh schools of first century Jewish mysticism. Mead refers to this briefly in his book on the Jewish traditions about Jesus. The story of the "Temptation," for example, is very characteristic of first century Jewish mystical thinking, and includes veiled references to an amazing assortment of ideas which are altogether unknown to most moderns. > I would like and appreciate a view from your perspective of > which you came > to consider as expressly "Initiate" by name and why as this would be a > stimulating > sharing. Irenaeus says in his book that he took pains to get initiated into the Valentinian school, and that he had long discussions with their students and read their books. According to Tertuliian Valentinus was an up-and-coming priest with considerable potential who went to Rome during the time of Hyginus and expected to swiftly advance in the hierarchy. He was passed over, became furious, and started his own organization in Egypt in which he taught the esoteric teaching of Paul, which was handed down orally from mouth to ear, but never set into writing before his time. Naturally his peers were furious and set out to condemn him as a humbug while secretly studying his stuff. Ambrose was one of his students, but Irenaeus was the one who left the most extensive account of it, suitably obfuscated. Naturally Irenaeus called it all horseshit while at the same time going to considerable trouble to learn and write about it. His book is pretty essential before tackling the primary Valentinian sources in the Nag Hammadi manuscripts, which are also written to be inscrutable to non initiates. Unfortunately, you have to throw out all the garbage when reading Irenaeus, then rearrange the resulting fragments and get rid of all the synonyms. That defeats his effort to make himself inscrutable while at the same time preserving these teachings. It also helps to keep in mind the history of Gnosticism, in which Valentinus' school lef to all sorts of derivatives. This can be confusing if you don't keep in mind that they were just changing the original system around and repackaging it. That Paul had a secret teaching is documented by Blavatsky in Isis Unveiled, but she did not say what it consisted of. Basilides claimed his initiatic lineage went back to "the secret discourses of Matthias," by which I take it he meant the apostle Matthew, and Glaucias, the interpreter of Peter. His school therefore went back to JC himself. As we know from Blavatsky, there was a war between Peter and Paul (she wrote about that in Isis) and there were disagreements between these two esoteric schools on some matters. It appears the "abrogation of the Law" actually originated within the Basilidean lineage and that Paul did not originate it but rather moderated it. The "abrogation of the law" also had an esoteric significance which made its way into Theosophy, although Blavatsky does not make a point of drawing the reader's attention to that fact. The writer of Revelation was a Merkabah mystic, as his book makes clear. There are all sorts of esoteric notions referred to in there, but without studying Merkabah mysticism you will not get any of them. The writer is believed to have been the apostle John, whose lineage goes back to JC again. The gospel which bears his name was written at Ephesus by a student of his who had a much better command of literary Greek. It alludes to Merkabah mysticism throughout. This book was a textbook with the Valentinian school, and Mead says, inaccurately, I believe, that it originated within the Valentinian circles. John disputed with the Basilidean lineage on certain matters which points to an early schism not otherwise documented. According to Clement of Alexandria, in addition to Merkabah methods he used fasting and chanting for purpose of stilling the mind and bringing about the visions recorded in his book. That is referred to in his essay about whether or not the rich man can be "saved." As Annie Besant points out in Esoteric Christianity, Polycarp was one of John's disciples, and also a student of Merkabah mysticism, although Besant knew very little about it and her book is almost worthless. She quotes Polycarp on hs esoteric studies vut does not know what he was talking about. There are two interesting chapters in Besant's book in which she quotes various early authors to the effect that there was an esoteric Christianity, but she did not know what it consisted of. That is true of almost all the books written to explain esoteric Christianity. The information I have uncovered is not in any published book of which I am aware, or is not assembled so that people can see what it means, anyway. It is scattered through dozens of ancient documents. According to the Secret Gospel of Mark, discovered by Morton Smith, the apostle Mark was also an initiate. It appears that it was through him that esoteric teaching went to Clement of Alexandria and especially Origen, who touches on numerous esoteric points in his book CONTRA CELSUM. None of these authors make it clear, but it can be shown that their inheritance consisted largely of the use of divine names for mystical purposes, which was the interest of the Yetzireh school. Dionysius the Areopagite, who was the most explicit writer on esoteric subjects, left an essay called "Divine Names." He makes it clear that the ultimate reality in the esoteric school was not personal, as did Basilides and Valentinus. That does not of course scratch the surface. I have been working this puzzle for about 40 years, and especially for the past 11 years. There is something hidden under almost every word. It is simply amazing the way they concealed their esoterica in writings which are everywhere today. And then you have all these jokers running around quoting this stuff with no idea what it really means. It is almost laughable to see ignorant people pompously quoting "the bible" with no comprehension of the concealed meaning. This should not be confused with any of the modern religious cults which use the christian name for a franchise. It is quite certain that ignorant television preachers know nothing of this. Blavatsky and others insisted the catholic hierarchy knows all about it, but the evidence that this is true is scant. The keys are in the Ante Nicene Fathers and the NT if you are an intrepid and I do mean intrepid reader. That is why I prefer the online documents to the printed versions. I can use an editor to throw out the chaff and leave the wheat. Then I can rearrange the wheat so the meaning becomes clear. You also have to study Jewish ideas, especially Kaplan's writings. > I might ask as regards Mead and a system whether you read or have his > "Orpheus" > in which he delineates the Orphic Theogony with many schematic inserts? Yes, it has been ages, but I have seen it. Very good book. From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 16:57:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 00:57:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 40404 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 00:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 00:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 00:57:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2002 00:57:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:57:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Didactic fiction Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2f62f9b.2b12efd5@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 877 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > I was given it by my father when I was 12. I was an obedient son, read it > from cover to cover, and remember it as being fascinating. Although, I can't > remember what I got out of it -- except the bicycle my dad promised me and, > maybe the ability to wade through entire dry textbooks in college before > starting a course (which made professor's think I was a wiz, and saved a lot > of homework study time :-). > Plenty of people swear by it, some saying it's the wisest book every written. For me, the problem is that it's didactic fiction and that is an inherently unsatisfactory combination. I can read didactic works with pleasure, and fiction with pleasure, but didacticism ruins the enjoyment of fiction. If it's subtle, not such a problem, e.g. the Shikasta novels by Doris Lessing. Cheers, PJ From levey_steven@hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 18:34:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 02:34:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 41606 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 02:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 02:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.197) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 02:34:33 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:34:33 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World Steven's comment on the Mahatma Letters Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:34:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Nov 2002 02:34:33.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A8B87E0:01C294F4] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.62] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel-in a Way the Mahatma Letters remind me of quite a few of Jesus's admonitions which we have been reminded "not to Question" by the clergy. They do this because they have no answers to questions with regard to statements that were intended for a particular disciple in a particular circumstance. Not to mention their general lack of concern for mystical and philosophical issues. I feel this is true about the Mahatma Letters (regarding their intention as meant for individual students not for general consumption). and therefore sometimes they seem to be only oddly chosen statements that are not complete and they might even be challenged as to their validity by a scholar (as they have in our own list). The truth is, Daniel, this is what I think about them, but my concern is not for the Letters. It is to follow the Path displayed by their concern for humanity which places more emphasis on brotherhood than anything else. In fact it might be shown that the motive behind the Theosophical metaphysical writings are all to lay the basis for how brotherhood is a fact at many levels of our existence. Which, if a student can validate this in their own minds makes a tremendous difference in their lives.-Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel H. Caldwell Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:24 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Steven's comment on the Mahatma Letters Steven, you wrote in part: "My study and the closest students within my circle of study feel as if they (The Mahatma Letters)are nearly impossible to use since their context or focus seemed to be to individual students. They are valid as productions of the beings attributed to, but their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student on the original receiving end." You write that the Mahatma Letters are "nearly impossible to use." Why? Steven, could you clarify what you mean in the above passage? I am somewhat unclear what you are referring to when you write that "their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student of the original receiving end." Daniel Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Nov 25 20:09:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 04:09:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 88029 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 04:09:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 04:09:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 04:09:47 -0000 Received: from pool0850.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.229.85] helo=earthlink) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GX2U-0006lm-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:09:35 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Writer and researcher requests your help. Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <200211250553.18gjGe38p3NZFl40@penguin> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 25 2002 Dear Friend: I would appreciate some answers so as to better help you. Would not "practices" follow the choosing of "values." How are "values" selected and identified impartially? Is there a scale that provides us with great impartiality and entire accuracy such definitions? One of the best sources in legend and fable are of course the Aesop Fables, or the "Fables de La Fontaine." The Chaldean, Assyrian, Egyptian, Chinese and Japanese traditions abound with these. World-wide parallels are made clear by comparison. Joseph Campbell has already done some of this work. But it can be improved. A comparison of the Theogonies and "Creation Myths" from the past ought also to be considered. Then half a world away one will find: the Hittopadesa, and the Panchatantra, and the stories of the great Kings: RAMAYANA and MAHABHARATA, also the Buddha's JATAKA STORIES, in India. A good number of translations of these are currently available. [ See also Ethel Beswick: TALES OF Hindu GODS AND HEROES - Jaico Books, Bombay. ] One of the best books to consult is Sister Nevedita's CRADLE TALES OF HINDUISM (Advaita Ashrama Press) . Personal stories -- unless appended to the first two items above as illustrations, will swim under their own power of course, but there ought to be enough similarities to make groupings. But what is central to this? Our eyes now sweep over the legendary and the historical past. We then rise over the Earth, and in a day we encompass the many places where legends and places originated -- where they then took place (and in which we may have participated if reincarnation is a fact and the Soul of man is an immortal) -- as the modern Earth revolves under us. And we sadly realise that many a secret from our past has been lost to us by the crude fanaticism of invaders and the march of ignorant and careless troupes. One need only visit a few truly ancient monuments around the world (even using the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC) to realize that the science of mathematics and architecture was alive and well centuries ago. What criteria shall we adopt? Can we distinguish, can any philosophy or science distinguish accurately vice from virtue? What criteria shall be adopted. Shall we use the shifting sands and speculative floods of the various tides of psychology? Where is fact and wisdom stored ? Lets take the Theosophical suggestion that we live in essentially a mutually interactive and cooperative World. We then, looking closely, discern innumerable evidences of mutual support in the world's life and present living. Brotherhood - is a porte-manteau word -- that includes all such. There is a long way between observation and the recording of events, and finding out what DRIVES THEM. Are there ANY LAWS OF ETHICS AND MORALITY that transcend argument? Your research appears t me to be another way of investigating "purpose" in the fragments of the past. Does Nature (meaning the Universe in all its aspects) show evidence of impartial cooperation and general support? How do "accidents" occur? How are "providential escapes" arranged for ? Is there any underlying logic in these ideas? Do the ancient Hindus have a good idea when they spoke of karma, and the impartial justice and fairness of the Universe ? I do hope these discursive words and ideas are of some help. Best wishes, Dallas ps: As an example try reading Mme. Blavatsky's ISIS UNVEILED, and, 2, the small collection of stories under the title THE TELL TALE PICTURE GALLERY. I am taking the liberty of spreading your request to some others interested in what you are doing. D ======================= -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:practices@lawler.org] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:14 AM To: Subject: Writer and researcher requests help. Dear Colleague, Please excuse the impersonal quality of this e-mail. I am writing to ask your help for a book I am writing about Life Practices. I am looking for examples of those simple things that we all do that are essential to expressing and maintaining our values as we face life's ups and downs - our Life Practices. What I am seeking is a bit like folklore. Something with a story and an easy to remember slogan or catchphrase. I am asking you to contribute out of your own personal experience not as an official representative of an organization. I am especially interested in those practices which help you deal with others - in your family, at work, in your immediate community, in the larger global community, etc. This is the only e-mail you will receive from me unless you choose to participate in this project. So far I have gathered over 150 practices from people all over the world: These are examples of contributions I have received so far that may help clarify what I am looking for: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ " 'Water what you want to grow' is my motto. Whenever I see something being done well I acknowledge it as soon as possible and in some tangible way. The least that I do is to complement the person doing the thing well. What I try to do more often is write a note to the person or give them a small gift." "My life changed when I went from seeing mistakes as awful to seeing them as the first chapter of a textbook on a new subject. I even had this made into a sign that hangs on the wall in my office. 'Mistakes are just chapter one in a textbook on a new subject' Now I get bothered if I don't have some sort of royal screw-up every few days. It's like I am not trying." "I learned from my grandfather to 'use the best materials you can afford.' This has provided a model for my life's work. Even in my late 70's I am still actively building things and more to the point of your book, I am still building my life out of "the best materials I can afford." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- These practices come from people from many places and with a wide variety of backgrounds. I am grateful for that. I want to show the broadest possible view of Life Practices from around the globe. And, at a time when there is so much mistrust in the world, I hope my book does some small part in reminding us that we even though we have differences, we still have much to learn from one another. The book will feature some of the material I gather with some commentary. I will be grateful if you would send me a practice that you use as a foundation in your life. Please include some brief biographical information as well. Also, if you would like to share in what I am learning, please let me know as well. And please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thank you for your consideration. Steve Lawler swl@lawler.org About me: Steve Lawler an ethics consultant and writer based in St Louis, Missouri USA. He regularly gives workshops on issues of ethics, values and culture. He has been quoted in a number of related pieces in publications including the Wall Street Journal, The Christian Science Monitor and Cape Talk Radio - Cape Town. Lawler has worked with companies in the US and Europe - including Monsanto, Pulitzer Publishing, and the Danforth Foundation. He has been a lecturer at Washington University and at Webster University. He has written for numerous publications. From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Mon Nov 25 21:42:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 05:42:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 80131 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 05:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 05:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout2.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 05:42:54 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.140]) by mxout2.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H6600A1H579HA@mxout2.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:42:48 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:43:17 +0200 Subject: The Secret Doctrine To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <003501c2950e$b8e87cc0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 Hello folks. I spent some time with you in the Past. This is again Etzion Becker from Jerusalem, who is translating the abridgement of the Secret Doctrine into Hebrew. I crossed these days half of the book, which was not a mean achievemnt, for those of you who know this difficult book :-) Anyway, I have plenty of questions for this respectable audience. The problems are not only the terminologies, which I am attemting to translate into Hebrew as well, like Manvantara was translated as *period of action*, etc. I think for one that the SD could be written in a much more simplified way, and my attempt is to convey it to the Hebrew reader as simple as possible, while retaining its deep meanings. Another problem which I have been facing, is the English itself. I am not a professional translator in the sense that I studied it in the university, studied the various levels of the English language etc. I do translations of spiritual material (mainly by Meher Baba) more than 20 years by now, and the copyright holders, who checked my translations, are quite happy. I think this work will come o.k. as well, but if some of you will be willing to offer a hand, more correct their key boards, we might achieve a good, readable version of the SD, which I consider as a great book. I'll start where I am now; it is Stanza 7, page 102, 5th sentence from top: "For the latter is the field .... fall into generation". I don't quite understand what is the meaning here. I'll appreciate your support. I have plenty more, I'll keep you very busy ;-) Love, Etzion From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 26 00:51:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 08:51:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 95128 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 08:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 08:51:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 08:51:37 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.e.28f48fb2 (3956) for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:51:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:51:35 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Steve, Thank you for your entertainment of my inquiry and interest, your responses are much appreciated. I hardly expected the survey you provided as well as the many gleanings and insights you consider valued. I consider them such also and they will assist me in my further actions. My perception about Paul was that he experienced apparently a sudden Samadhi experience which constituted a Noetic Unity of the Light itself and became the Gnostic "Pistis" and foundation of his expression, in particular his "We strive IN Christ", indicating he professed the idea that the Christ Principle itself is Transcedent-Immanent in which he and all have participation in that Water of Beingness which is infinite and boundless and without limit or restraint. Viewing the Metaphysic in terms of the Absolute Unity, Intention, Will, and the Dunymis to effect the effectual manifestation Within the without and Without the Within of what is called "The Only Begotten Son" or I prefer "The Alone Begotten Son" as the means by which Absolute remains in Covenant of itself and yet matriculates that which is within the within as ultimately All is. There were two versions of Mead's "Orpheus," I currently have the 1896 version Titled: "The Theosophy of the Greeks----Orpheus," but there was another earlier version that was Titled: "Orpheus The Fisher King----Fisher of souls," this was stolen from me to my dismay. Steve, thanks once more for your time and kindness and willingness to provide such a very nice post in response. Jon From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 26 01:14:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 09:14:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 17815 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:14:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 09:14:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:14:22 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.15a.17f564a7 (3956) for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:14:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15a.17f564a7.2b14956c@cs.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:14:20 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World The Secret Doctrine To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Etvion, Welcome back. Well, which particular Book by name and year and edition do you excerpt the Stanza VII qoute from? John From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Tue Nov 26 01:15:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 81241 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Mr. Johnson's Quote in BA Goswami's Post Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4247 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.176 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Dear Mr. Johnson and other Group Members, A volunteer kindly formatted my post part III-IV for me, and in so doing, put Paul Johnson's quote in italics. When I pasted this post in on the site here, for some reason the italics disappeared, which I did not see at the time. Even though I identify Mr Johnson as the statement's author in my text both above and below the quote, It may stll be confusing to readers. Since I don't know how or if I can now correct this, I am posting this to inform everyone about the mistake. Below is the section of my post in question. I have placed >>> <<<<< around Mr. Johnson's passage, which I have quoted from a previous posting on this site. My apologies to you Mr Johnson. Bhakti Ananda Goswami Nevertheless, the esoteric or occult traditions have real-world history too, and with some additional effort, much can be learned about these as well. Paul Johnson has noted the sui generis problem (see below). >>> "Where authenticity comes in, IMO, is in the frank acknowledgment of the synthetic nature of the teaching. Cayceites who insist that the Readings are direct transcriptions of the Akashic Record; Baha'is who insist that Baha'u'llah's writings are direct words of God; Christians who insist that Jesus is the one and only Son of God whose words are the absolute and ultimate truth; Theosophists who insist that HPB's Theosophy is the ancient wisdom tradition from which everything else devolved; ad nauseum are engaged in what David Lane calls genealogical dissociation. That is, denying the actual, always- complex genealogy of the belief system and pretending that it is sui generis, direct truth straight from The Source. I don't think Hinduism or Buddhism are exempt from this behavior pattern, although they do tend to a bit more self-honesty about the history of ideas. "<<<< The historical and scientific approach to the study of a religion (or `spirituality,' I might add) is often experienced as threatening by the faithful, which is another problem encountered when researchists attempt to objectively trace-out the genealogy, innovation and diffusion of thought systems. Thus the resistance of the faithful to those attempting to objectively study their tradition may result in purposeful non-cooperation in such endeavors, and maybe even in the denial of, hiding, distortion, or other obscuration of evidence. In even worse cases, the investigators work may be suppressed or censured, the investigators personally vilified or threatened, their writings and even their careers or lives destroyed for daring to attempt to part the veil, and behold the real-world genealogy of a 'spirituality' or religion. This ongoing attempt in a tradition, to deny the genealogy of its teachings, may create a body of apologetic and polemical literatures designed to defend the faith from its own origins, and anyone attempting to discover them. Thus a considerable barrier may be constructed over time, to the understanding of the history of certain ideas. Above Paul Johnson used the phrase "...self-honesty about the history of ideas." This immediately caught my attention, because as a spiritual director, I use the term "self-honesty" on a daily basis with those I counsel. I use this term because I define HUMILITY as self-honesty or honesty about, and with one's self. This humility is the basis of all other virtues and necessary for self- 'realization'. In fact, such humility is in a sense self- realization. Truth and Honesty are inseparable, and must be held-to by persons of integrity, as the foundation of everything knowable and worth knowing. Theosophists like to talk about recognizing what is mayavic / illusory, but their entire mystical Theosophical Society history has apparently been fabricated by persons with no apparent self-honesty, who purposely obscured the true sources of their information. Thus the faithful of the Theosophical Society bear a great burden in having to defend against all evidence and reason, the claims of the Society Founders to "...direct truth straight from the source" as Mr. Johnson has said. Mr. Johnson also raises the question of "self-honesty" in Hinduism and Buddhism. From mail@katinkahesselink.net Tue Nov 26 01:27:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 09:27:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 49808 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:27:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Paul Johnson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003301c293e3$04252e40$94d30b3f@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 635 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Katinka Hesselink" X-Originating-IP: 195.241.103.89 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723 X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink Hi all, Have been absent from this list for a long time, excepting my recent mail on Henk Spierenburg's new book. The reason is that I am getting tired of the theosophical mudfights. I am a member of another list that is a lot quieter and gets into subjects that are a lot more relevant to my personal theosophical studies. I am writing this because Paul Johnson has asked me to vouch for him: he is indeed a seperate person from Brigitte Muelleger. I would have given a long explanation, but it seems Wry is already convinced of this. My promise being fulfilled, I will go back to my theos-talk pralaya. Katinka Hesselink From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Nov 26 01:41:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 09:41:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 12360 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 09:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:41:18 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.122.1b017c18 (3972) for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:41:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <122.1b017c18.2b149bbc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:41:16 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World SHOW MAHATMA LETTERS CONTAIN GENUINE TEACHINGS. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 There is only one "polemicist" in this forum. And, it certainly isn't myself or any of the others you are constantly argufying with. This is probably my last response to your long winded second hand arguments against the validity of theosophy and the credibility of its teachers based on quoting so called "experts" and "authorities" who use their revelations or opinions about the nature of reality to argue against other peoples revelations or opinions. So, let's get it straight for a change... You're barking up a tree. For one thing, I do not profess to be a historical "scholar." Secondly, I cannot speak as a member of any theosophical organization, society, group or religion connected or disconnected with theosophy. Thirdly, I couldn't care less whether or not the Mahatma letters were "authentic," or about the opinions, ideas, concepts, or religious beliefs of whoever wrote them. And lastly, I am not interested in arguing about anyone's religious beliefs or whether the "God" or "Gods" of any religion's exist or not. (Although, I have no problem studying ALL their ancient and modern scriptures for the wisdom and philosophical or scientific truths they may contain.) My sole interest is in finding a logically and scientifically valid understanding of the teachings of metaphysics put forth in the Secret Doctrine as a "synthesis of science religion and philosophy" -- which, in my view is entirely consistent with the fundamental teachings of all the ancient and modern philosopher-scientists and occultists (that I have been studying and correlating all my life). I do not believe in any of it, blindly, nor do I deny it, blindly. My mind has always been open to logical and consistent proof based on science, mathematics, and direct observation -- both subjectively and objectively. Therefore my interest lies in studying such a "theory" and, if correct, trying to prove it, and if incorrect, falsify it -- on strictly logical and scientific grounds... Other than that, I have no interest in arguing about the opinions and conclusions of others, or proving anything pro or con about the religious ideals, or Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis teachings of theosophy -- other than from a scientifically valid ontological and epistemological standpoint -- based on fundamental principles. However, the religious aspects pertaining to true or false Gods, or racist interpretations are "side issues" that are not my current concern -- except to point out the foolishness of those who argue about them. Accordingly, I stand on my theory of ABC (that, coincidentally, does not contradict, and in fact confirms theosophical metaphysics) -- which can logically, scientifically and philosophically be argued as being a consistent means of explaining the involution and evolution of the UNIVERSE (and all the beings, things and their properties within it). This parsimonious explanation answers all the unanswered questions of cosmic origin, genesis, ontology and epistemology now baffling all disciplines of modern science -- particularly, with respect to their studies of the connections and interrelationships between consciousness and matter, mind and brain, as well as explaining the "experience" of consciousness. If you or any of your "credentialed" experts wish to present arguments against this theory, or can offer up a better model that invalidates its and/or the theosophical metaphysics, that is consistent with the theories of relativity, quantum and Superstring/M-brane physics, as well as with fundamental principles (as a priori) -- I would be happy to review your dissertations on the subject, and present my counter arguments, if necessary. Beyond that, I have no further interest in hearing from you. LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html In a message dated 11/22/02 4:19:36 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >"OPINIONS about theosophy and >its teachings -- of which you, apparently, know little (even superficially)= >or nothing at all" > >Brian: If you know anything at all yourself then start by showing us one >by one a scolarly refutation of the few dozen "philosophical" points >refuting the contents of for example the "Mahatma Letters" below, but >do work trough it all the way to the end if you want to be worth your >salt, and not just be looked upon by some as a crackpot polemicist: (Snip repeats of previous mailings from BAG, B/BM, etc.) From dhyana@web.de Tue Nov 26 02:46:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 10:46:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 30169 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 10:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 10:46:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 10:46:39 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gAQAkZM01768 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:46:35 +0100 Received: from captainak7j46l (cppp-210.blinx.de [62.96.222.210]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gAQAkUC01650 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:46:30 +0100 Message-ID: <010c01c29539$18a50e60$d6de603e@captainak7j46l> To: References: <003501c2950e$b8e87cc0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> Subject: Re: Theos-World The Secret Doctrine Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:44:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.210 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >into Hebrew as well, like Manvantara was translated as *period of action*, Etzion, first my congratulations for your heavy task to translate the SD into Hebrew. It was new to me that so far no Hebrew edition exists. But please let the technical terms as they are. Terms like Manvantara, karma, mahatmas, pralaya are not being translated into French or German either. A Sanskrit term is a Sanskrit term for a European or American student as well as for a Jewish student. One reason is that this terminology which comes from the old original sources helps all students worldwide to communicate and understand and reduces misunderstandings, another reason is that neither Hebrew, nor French, nor German or English etc. have actually equal terms for the Sanskrit words. Any translation is a loss and our theosophical technical terms have a life of its own. Frank From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 03:02:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 20201 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:09 -0000 Received: from pool0200.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.200] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GdTh-0003sH-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:02:05 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Re to Steve - Phenomena & Noumena Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:58:04 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov. 26 2002 Dear Friends: I find this most interesting, May I observe? If there are mental images, then there has to be a thinker who evolves them. The thinker employs some force to design, frame and animate them, what would that be, and how would it be used ? are the Thinker and his thoughts, and the surroundings, are all part of a single CONSCIOUSNESS ? There have to be memories as well. And the power to recollect or evoke them ? There has thus, to be also the power of anticipation. How Would That be Based ? Also there has to be some kind of substance (s) on which they are imprinted. The thinker has also the power to alter them. At present, it would seem that most thinkers we are aware of, reside in bodies of various kinds: matter, electro-magnetic patterns, life currents, desires, thoughts, and finally, of universal and impersonal facts that are seemingly invariable. We might call these last, the basis of WISDOM and of UNIVERSAL MEMORY / MIND. [Perhaps these are the "seeds. ? and, or "reality ?"] It is not unreasonable to assume that our mental perception, arising in the material plane, is self-limited. However if that mind (or myself in the here and now) can envisage residence and activity in other levels of substance, and, if those are in correlation with each other and the physical, then each thinker may be an individualized CONSCIOUSNESS with faculties that are drawn from the whole of the Universe ( Nature ). Is this a commonly experienced "reality ?" Are not noumena ( causes ) connected with "phenomena" (effects) on various planes, as the effects which choice and change bring about ? Are not certain correlated "planes" also affected ? What would be so extraordinary as to find that individual Thinkers are inevitably all linked ? Finally what kind of force (s) or objective (s) cause (s) the UNIVERSE ( NATURE ) to be ? Is that connected with my and your "existence ?" Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: gschueler Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 7:52 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re to Steve - Phenomena & Noumena Hi Steve. Having read your ideas on Kant before, I was pretty sure that you were Mauri's mystery person. <<>> We can think of a rabbit with horns, etc, things that have no "real" existence except as mental images. Are these also noumena? I would think so. The Mind Only school of Tibetan Buddhism also teaches that external objects are all conscious respresentations, projections from the alayavijnana. They say that all possible experience is due to the seeds stored in the alayavijnana. And all schools of Mahayana Buddhism agree that there is no thing-in-itself to experience. It is very unfortunate that Blavatsky was so vague on this. <<>> OK, but I think that I am more of a subjective idealist, and I do not believe that phenomena or noumena can exist independently of the mind that conceives/perceives them. One reason I say this is because in meditation we can transcend phenomena and noumena. If they are "real" it is hard for me to see how such a trancendence would be possible. The mind can be raised to spiritual formless states suggesting that mind has a "real" existence while phenomena/noumena do not. <<>> Interesting. These "representations in consciousness" sound like the "aspects" taught by the early Mind-Only folks like Dharmakirti. He taught that "aspects" of consciousness were the bridge between external but non-material monads and conscious experience. Intriguing line of thought there... Most Theosophists are of the opinion that maya is simply sensory illusion as taught in modern science classes. I have been trying to show that is it much more than this, but only a few seem to understand. According to many Tibetan Buddhists, the very experience of an external reality that seems to be independent or different from the mind experiencing it is maya. And this is true no matter what plane we are on. Dream contents always seem to exist independent of our mind, and even in lucid dreaming we can control them but cannot unite with them owing to our countless past lives of mayavic experiencing. But after we wake from a dream, we realize that they had to be mental projections. Buddhists claim that after enlightenment, which is a waking up to mayavic illusion, we will realize that this is true on all planes. Something to think on, anyway. <<>> This is certainly one valid way to look at it. The beauty of "reality" is that it can be modeled in so many ways. When we transcend phonomena on one plane, the noumena of the next plane becomes our phenomena and so on up the planes. There is no valid reason to reify the planes and posit some kind of independent objective reality to them as Blavastky did in the SD. I can see where our experiences can be modeled either way. From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 03:02:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 46875 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:31 -0000 Received: from pool0200.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.200] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GdU5-0003sH-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:02:30 -0800 To: Subject: RE: What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:58:33 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 26 2002 Re MAHATMA LETTERS Dear Steven: Thanks for this copy for me to see ? It is easier to read if you could break up your message into paragraphs, and make the breaks when you change observations or subject. Do help. I don't make it a practice of quoting much from the MAHATMA LETTERS, as The SECRET DOCTRINE which came at the end of that correspondence in 1888, sums up the Theosophical position, and sets Mr Sinnett's writings into their true perspective.. I would never attribute motives to others as we do not know what they are. But we can ask questions. I find the MAHATMA LETTERS is most valuable in assisting devotees, and in setting the ethical and moral tone for aspirant We can all use that for self-examination. But the results are of course kept private as they concern ourselves only, as I see it.. Exactly how things were, in H P B's time we can only guess at. I think you are right in the matter of the goals of those who follow the "eye" or the "heart" doctrines. Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: Steven Levey [mailto:levey_steven@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:41 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Dear Sir-It is clear to me that your eruditneness regarding the lineage of these things is profound, and far beyond me as a student. But, I have something to say because I believe there are other perspectives (at least 0ne) to take regarding the Mahatmas that are as self-validating to this student as your learned perspective is to you. I was a member of the T.S 30 years ago and after a short stay of a couple of years, I joined the United Lodge of Theosophists. As a student of ancient wisdom in general I developed a focus upon the concept of Mahatmas, primarily because the concept of Masters of Wisdom as brothers and sincere spiritual human beings who became what they are through their own self-devised effort, is very motivating. And that is how they are characterized in true Theosophical writings. Now, you may feel, that becoming "what they are" is erroneous and therefore should certainly not be emulated. And, it seems, your decision would be made based upon what you have perused of the "Mahatma Letters". Frankly I would and actually felt similarly, if they were all I was steering my studies by. My study and the closest students within my circle of study feel as if they (The Mahatma Letters)are nearly impossible to use since their context or focus seemed to be to individual students. They are valid as productions of the beings attributed to, but their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student on the original receiving end. Therefore, and as such, they should never have been published to a general audience. I read them when they came my way as a member of the T.S. At that time, as I do when I read something difficult to characterize or to practically use, I put them on a "back burner", so to speak. Upon spending many years studying HPB's The Secret Doctrine along with her collective writings as well as William Quan Judge's, Robert Crosbie, and others, it became clear to me that students who flaunt knowledge of the Mahatma Letters are doing so for some egocentric purpose. Why? Because when you place what the Mahatmas have said in the context in which they are placed in thoughtful writings aimed at giving the student as much context as possible in which to understand their wisdom, one might learn something useful. Otherwise, the Mahatma Letters stand only as an enigma. Real, but rather practically useless. Those in HPB's direct lineage, which leaves out many, if not most writers in the Theosophical Society, who have received further instruction from the Lodge of Mahatmas, have never given a collection of the Mahatma letters to be printed. They have ALWAYS been excerpted and put in the context of principled ideation regarding a subject matter in discussion. Why excerpted? Because it is clear to students of the Wisdom religion, that the Chelas of Mahatmas are given instructions as to how the wisdom of the Teacher will be used. This trust is beyond question amongst those so chosen. In fact that is part and parcel of the Teacher-Disciple relationship. None the less, each student is implored to study on their own and to draw their own conclusions. Perhaps, more importantly, is the ideal of putting to work the best ethical thought, word and deed that one can. The great Paramitas are most always overlooked by the phenomena addicted student. This great ethical teaching is pronounced by HPB and Her Teachers as the paramount motive behind the Theosophical Movement. This is true now and I know it was true in HPB's day. And discussion of high beings and their powers are a terrible trap. AS can be the trap of high erudition because it can become an end in itself. The path which it uncovers may seem not as "tasty" to the mind, as the nearly tactile feeling of accruing knowledge, which leaves the mystically inclined, ethical student within, simply ignored. The becoming of the Pratyeka Buddha is at the crown of this while the Nirmanakaya is the product of the practice of the Heart Doctrine. These choices need to be made and one is making them by our inclinations whether we know it or not. A good thing I say. Sincerely-Steven Levey _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 03:02:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 46990 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 11:02:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 11:02:33 -0000 Received: from pool0200.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.200] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GdU9-0003sH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 03:02:33 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Long Posts Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:58:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021125114447.02ea78d0@mail.infohiwy.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Excellent idea. will try to remember Dal -----Original Message----- From: ramadoss@gbronline.com [mailto:ramadoss@gbronline.com] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:48 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Long Posts >From time to time we see postings of very long messages and one should appreciate the time it takes to key in long messages. However, it would be helpful to many subscribers like myself if at the beginning of the long posts, a short summary can be posted. This way, one can quickly understand what the writer is trying to say. Just my 0.02. mkr Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Tue Nov 26 05:47:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 13:47:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 24023 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 13:47:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 13:47:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout3.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 13:47:30 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.144.221]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H66009P0RLVAV@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:46:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:47:12 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World The Secret Doctrine To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <000801c29552$5380c4c0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <003501c2950e$b8e87cc0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> <010c01c29539$18a50e60$d6de603e@captainak7j46l> From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 Thanks Frank; we are aware of it. It is actually a team work, myself, the Israeli Theosophical President in Israel, his secretary, and others as well. We have been considering all these points. It will take a few more years before we will reach an acceptable version. We do our best. I trust we will have a good edition. Love, Etzion > > Etzion, first my congratulations for your heavy task to translate the SD > into Hebrew. It was new to me that so far no Hebrew edition exists. > But please let the technical terms as they are. Terms like Manvantara, > karma, mahatmas, pralaya are not being translated into French or German > either. > A Sanskrit term is a Sanskrit term for a European or American student as > well as for a Jewish student. > One reason is that this terminology which comes from the old original > sources helps all students worldwide to communicate and understand and > reduces misunderstandings, another reason is that neither Hebrew, nor > French, nor German or English etc. have actually equal terms for the > Sanskrit words. > Any translation is a loss and our theosophical technical terms have a life > of its own. > Frank > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Tue Nov 26 06:35:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 14:35:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 84090 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 14:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 14:35:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 14:35:31 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.147.123]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H66009XKTUXPS@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:35:31 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:23:18 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World The Secret Doctrine To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <003601c29559$1f795af0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <15a.17f564a7.2b14956c@cs.com> From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 Thanks; I have "An Abridgement of the Secret Doctrine"; 260 pages. first date of copyright 1966 First Quest Book edition, 1967 published by The Theosopical Publishing House, Wheaton. Illinois. a department of the Theosopical Society in America..... Sixth Quest Book printing, 1992. ISBN: 0-8356-0009-2 It is Stanza 7. Thanks, Etzion > Etvion, > Welcome back. Well, which particular Book by name and year and edition > do > you excerpt the Stanza VII qoute from? > John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From levey_steven@hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 06:39:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 14:39:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 49071 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 14:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 14:39:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.122) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 14:39:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:39:01 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:38:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Nov 2002 14:39:01.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FBE3330:01C29559] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.204] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dallas-Thanks for the advice upon presenting my ideas. But, the attempt to prove or disprove a work (The Mahatma Letters) based in such a tirade can only make this student think that one is protesting too much. There is a lineage of concept, to which the author of said tirade on "What were they Masters of", has shown. He dismisses The Mahatma letters on the basis that they break with this lineage. I believe an over-reverence for such a lineage shows the need to have an allegiance to those minds which have attempted to hold the human mind in general in the locks of orthodoxy. We know that more blood has been shed over this than any other cause, as it is today. The Mahatmas carefully, as does HPB, presents a reverence for that great lineage none as the Guruparampara Chain. The Mahatmas, mostly through HPB, have chosen carefully from such doctrines, amongst the forest of embellishments, to present to us what may be used well, and which verify a universal doctrine. This doctrine she calls the "Birth-right of Humanity". Whether or not one finds the truth in this must be based in each individual's capacity to activate these ideas with care and patience. This kind of process will end the "war in the breast" and that will bring peace in the "outer world". No, I am not overly judgmental of this gentlemen. I am simply defending the method which the Mahatmas have chosen and their right and in fact obligation to humanity to do so. However, the seeming fragmentation of their presentation is one good reason why the Mahatma Letters are not a good text book for study. As reminders of Them and the period in which they wrote, Yes, I agree, they hold that purpose.-Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: dalval14@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:02 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World RE: What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Nov 26 2002 Re MAHATMA LETTERS Dear Steven: Thanks for this copy for me to see ? It is easier to read if you could break up your message into paragraphs, and make the breaks when you change observations or subject. Do help. I don't make it a practice of quoting much from the MAHATMA LETTERS, as The SECRET DOCTRINE which came at the end of that correspondence in 1888, sums up the Theosophical position, and sets Mr Sinnett's writings into their true perspective.. I would never attribute motives to others as we do not know what they are. But we can ask questions. I find the MAHATMA LETTERS is most valuable in assisting devotees, and in setting the ethical and moral tone for aspirant We can all use that for self-examination. But the results are of course kept private as they concern ourselves only, as I see it.. Exactly how things were, in H P B's time we can only guess at. I think you are right in the matter of the goals of those who follow the "eye" or the "heart" doctrines. Best wishes, Dallas ================= -----Original Message----- From: Steven Levey [mailto:levey_steven@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:41 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World What Were They The Masters Of ? Parts III and IV together Dear Sir-It is clear to me that your eruditneness regarding the lineage of these things is profound, and far beyond me as a student. But, I have something to say because I believe there are other perspectives (at least 0ne) to take regarding the Mahatmas that are as self-validating to this student as your learned perspective is to you. I was a member of the T.S 30 years ago and after a short stay of a couple of years, I joined the United Lodge of Theosophists. As a student of ancient wisdom in general I developed a focus upon the concept of Mahatmas, primarily because the concept of Masters of Wisdom as brothers and sincere spiritual human beings who became what they are through their own self-devised effort, is very motivating. And that is how they are characterized in true Theosophical writings. Now, you may feel, that becoming "what they are" is erroneous and therefore should certainly not be emulated. And, it seems, your decision would be made based upon what you have perused of the "Mahatma Letters". Frankly I would and actually felt similarly, if they were all I was steering my studies by. My study and the closest students within my circle of study feel as if they (The Mahatma Letters)are nearly impossible to use since their context or focus seemed to be to individual students. They are valid as productions of the beings attributed to, but their subject matter seemed to be limited to the student on the original receiving end. Therefore, and as such, they should never have been published to a general audience. I read them when they came my way as a member of the T.S. At that time, as I do when I read something difficult to characterize or to practically use, I put them on a "back burner", so to speak. Upon spending many years studying HPB's The Secret Doctrine along with her collective writings as well as William Quan Judge's, Robert Crosbie, and others, it became clear to me that students who flaunt knowledge of the Mahatma Letters are doing so for some egocentric purpose. Why? Because when you place what the Mahatmas have said in the context in which they are placed in thoughtful writings aimed at giving the student as much context as possible in which to understand their wisdom, one might learn something useful. Otherwise, the Mahatma Letters stand only as an enigma. Real, but rather practically useless. Those in HPB's direct lineage, which leaves out many, if not most writers in the Theosophical Society, who have received further instruction from the Lodge of Mahatmas, have never given a collection of the Mahatma letters to be printed. They have ALWAYS been excerpted and put in the context of principled ideation regarding a subject matter in discussion. Why excerpted? Because it is clear to students of the Wisdom religion, that the Chelas of Mahatmas are given instructions as to how the wisdom of the Teacher will be used. This trust is beyond question amongst those so chosen. In fact that is part and parcel of the Teacher-Disciple relationship. None the less, each student is implored to study on their own and to draw their own conclusions. Perhaps, more importantly, is the ideal of putting to work the best ethical thought, word and deed that one can. The great Paramitas are most always overlooked by the phenomena addicted student. This great ethical teaching is pronounced by HPB and Her Teachers as the paramount motive behind the Theosophical Movement. This is true now and I know it was true in HPB's day. And discussion of high beings and their powers are a terrible trap. AS can be the trap of high erudition because it can become an end in itself. The path which it uncovers may seem not as "tasty" to the mind, as the nearly tactile feeling of accruing knowledge, which leaves the mystically inclined, ethical student within, simply ignored. The becoming of the Pratyeka Buddha is at the crown of this while the Nirmanakaya is the product of the practice of the Heart Doctrine. These choices need to be made and one is making them by our inclinations whether we know it or not. A good thing I say. Sincerely-Steven Levey _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From levey_steven@hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:36:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 26 Nov 2002 23:36:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 11777 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 23:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Nov 2002 23:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 23:36:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:39:30 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World Some Comments on Publication of The Mahatma Letters and HPB's Es Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:39:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Nov 2002 02:39:30.0154 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B8DDCA0:01C294F5] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.62] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel-I agree with most of what you said, but I have not seen such a prohi= bition. Perhaps each lodge in the ULT has different expectations, but each = student must be free to draw there own conclusions. Prohibitions, by their = nature, tend to highlight what aught to be done by the lower mind and are n= ot counter-productive. Too much focus on these Letters.-Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel H. Caldwell Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:34 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Some Comments on Publication of The Mahatma Letters an= d HPB's Esoteric Writings Some Comments on Publication of The Mahatma Letters and HPB's=20=20 Esoteric Writings by Daniel H. Caldwell [These comments formed one message in a discussion held on "Theos-L"=20=20 regarding the value of The Mahatma Letters [available online at: http://mahatmaletters.net ], and of how appropriate it=20=20 may be for their publication and public discussion.] One of the Masters (K.H.) wrote the following concerning the=20=20 publication of his own letters and notes to Sinnett: "The letters, in short, were not written for publication or public=20=20 comment upon them, but for private use, and neither M. nor I would=20=20 ever give our consent to see them thus handled." =E2=80=94 Mahatma Letter No. 63 One should read the whole letter from which I have quoted in order to=20=20 see the context in which those words were made. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-63.htm ] But there is another letter from the Mahatma K.H. which throws=20=20 additional light on the issue of publishing the letters from the=20=20 Masters. In the summer of 1884, Mohini Chatterji and Laura C.=20=20 Holloway were writing a book on Theosophy entitled Man: Fragments of=20=20 Forgotten History. Both Mohini and Laura were chelas of K.H. In a=20=20 letter addressed to Mohini, Master K.H. wrote: "You may, if you choose so, or find necessity for it, use in Man [the=20=20 above titled book] or in any other book you may chance to be=20=20 collaborating for, anything I may have said in relation to our secret=20=20 doctrines in any of my letters to Messrs. Hume or Sinnett. Those=20=20 portions that were private have never been allowed by them to be=20=20 copied by anyone; and those which are so copied have by the very fact=20=20 become theosophical property. Besides, copies of my letters =E2=80=94 at any rate those that contained my teachings =E2=80=94 have always been sent by my order to Damodar and Upasika [H.P.B.], and some of the portions=20=20 even used in The Theosophist. You are at liberty to even copy them=20=20 verbatim and without quotation marks. ... Thus not only you, a chela=20=20 of mine, but anyone else is at liberty to take anything, whole pages,=20=20 if thought proper, from any of my 'copied' letters and convert=20=20 their 'dross' into pure ore of gold, provided they have well grasped=20=20 the thought. Show this to L.C.H. who was already told the same. =E2=80=94 Letter 39 in Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series [Man: Fragments of Forgotten History is available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/ManFragments.htm ] It should also be noted that a great deal of the teaching letters=20=20 from K.H. and M. were quoted in the following books published in the=20=20 1880s:=20=20 * The Occult World by A.P. Sinnett. (First edition published 1881) [Available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/OccultWorld.htm ] * Esoteric Buddhism by A.P. Sinnett. (First edition published 1883) * The Occult World by A.P.S. See 4th English edition, 1884, Appendix,=20=20 pp. 145-149 for an additional KH letter. [Available online at:=20=20 http://www.theosophical.ca/OccultWorld.htm ] * Man: Fragments of Forgotten History by Two Chelas [Chatterji and=20=20 Holloway) (First edition, published 1885) [Available online at:=20=20 http://www.theosophical.ca/ManFragments.htm ] * The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky. (First published 1888). See=20=20 especially Vol. I where H.P.B. quotes from several of KH's letters to=20=20 Sinnett. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-08.htm and http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm] * In additional to the above books, excerpts from the Masters'=20=20 letters were published in various articles in The Theosophist (1881- 1883). * Also W.J. Judge published lengthy extracts from K.H.'s letters to=20=20 Sinnett dealing with Kamaloka and Devachan. See The Path, August,=20=20 1889, Nov., 1889, May, 1890 and June, 1890. These articles have been=20=20 reprinted by The Theosophy Company, Los Angeles, in their compilation=20=20 Theosophical Articles and Notes, 1985, pp. 236-247. * H.P.B. also quoted extracts from KH's Letters to Sinnett in the=20=20 pages of Lucifer. * Judge published the Prayag Letter [also contained in The Mahatma=20=20 Letters to A. P. Sinnett] in The Path in the early 1890s. [See: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm ] And there are many more . . . .=20=20 It would be an interesting exercise to take a copy of The Mahatma=20=20 Letters to A. P. Sinnett [ http://mahatmaletters.net ] and underline=20=20 in red all the passages that have been published in the above sources. Directing attention back to KH's letter to Mohini in which mention is=20=20 made of the "copied letters" which have "become theosophical=20=20 property", Francesca Arundale, an early Theosophist, had "three=20=20 manuscript books" of "these early teachings" from the Masters.=20=20 Evidence indicates that Sinnett copied these "teachings" from the=20=20 letters of the Masters and sent them to London for the benefit of=20=20 Arundale and other students of Theosophy. These "teaching letters" as=20=20 found in Arundale"s manuscript books were eventually published by C.=20=20 Jinarajadasa in 1923 under the title The Early Teachings of the=20=20 Masters 1881 to 1883. This book by Jinarajadasa was published some=20=20 months before A. Trevor Barker published the complete collection of=20=20 letters from the Masters K.H. and M. in London in Dec. 1923. [Jinarajadasa's compilation is available online at: http://www.theosophical.ca/EarlyTeachings.htm ] In the light of the above historical facts, would ULT students (who=20=20 have usually objected to the publication of The Mahatma Letters) be=20=20 willing to study The Early Teachings of the Masters? Would they be=20=20 willing to publicly circulate this volume by Jinarajadasa or a=20=20 similarly compiled work? Now another issue. ULT associates privately read and study The=20=20 Mahatma Letters. But if we are to take literally and at face value=20=20 the Master K.H.'s prohibition on the publishing of the letters in=20=20 their entirety, then once any ULT student reads this prohibition,=20=20 would not reason and logic dictate that he should close the book and=20=20 never pick The Mahatma Letters up again? As H.N. Stokes once wrote=20=20 about this very subject, If The Mahatma Letters are private documents today, no one without a=20=20 diploma of sanctity and a special permit from the Mahatmas is more=20=20 entitled to read them than any others.=20=20 Speaking of H.N. Stokes, the editor of The O.E. Library Critic=20=20 (Washington, D.C.), Dr. Stokes wrote at least two articles on the=20=20 ULT's attitude toward The Mahatma Letters. The articles are: "Is the ULT Boycotting The Mahatma Letters?" (The O.E. Library=20=20 Critic, April, 1934.) "Magazine Theosophy Places The Mahatma Letters on ULT Index=20=20 Expurgatorius." (The O.E. Library Critic, May-June, 1935. Stokes notes that soon after The Mahatma Letters were first published=20=20 in London in Dec., 1923, Theosophy Magazine (the L.A.-based ULT=20=20 periodical) "hailed" the publication of these Letters as follows: "These letters are, beyond all question the one great and final=20=20 contribution to Theosophical literature and history since The Secret=20=20 Doctrine. They solve the hitherto baffling and inscrutable mysteries=20=20 in connection with the public course of the Movement, by bringing to=20=20 light the missing links of its degradation through theosophists,=20=20 theosophical societies, and the world at large. ... Let all true=20=20 Theosophists rejoice at the light that is now shed on the dark places=20=20 of the past and present." =E2=80=94 Theosophy Magazine, March, 1924 But Stokes points out that four ULT magazines (including Theosophy=20=20 Magazine) subsequently had the practice of quoting from The Mahatma=20=20 Letters but never telling their readers that they were quoting from=20=20 the book entitled The Mahatma Letters To A. P. Sinnett. Stokes found=20=20 that in the years 1928-1933, these four ULT magazines had quoted 87=20=20 times from the Letters. Stokes writes: "Of the 87 quotations from The Mahatma Letters only one gives=20=20 reference; the others afford not the slightest clue to the source,=20=20 not the slightest possibility of the student locating it without=20=20 laborious search. He is not even permitted to know the existence of=20=20 such a book as The Mahatma Letters." =E2=80=94 The O.E. Library Critic, April, 1934 In the other article cited above, Stokes discusses an article=20=20 published in Theosophy Magazine for February, 1935. The anonymous ULT=20=20 associate writes for two or three pages on The Mahatma Letters but=20=20 then concludes: "All that is taught in the Letters is contained in The Secret=20=20 Doctrine ... and is there presented in proper form for students under=20=20 the direct instruction and sponsoring of the Mahatmas themselves. The=20=20 publication of the Mahatma Letters in violation of Their own=20=20 injunction, and recourse to these Letters [by Theosophical students]=20=20 instead of to The Secret Doctrine for instruction in Occultism, shows=20=20 the difference between true and false psychology. Mr. Sinnett's use=20=20 of the Letters was such as to close to him the door opened via H.P.B.=20=20 with the Mahatmas: What will be the effect of the unlawful=20=20 publication and use of them thus made possible to so many hopeless=20=20 Incurables in the Mysteries?" Stokes points out that several of the assertions made in this=20=20 quotation are not true. Stokes goes on to say: "But when the Theosophy Magazine writer speaks of 'false psychology'=20=20 and of 'hopeless Incurables in the Mysteries' one is prompted to ask=20=20 whether these rather strong terms do not apply to himself. He is=20=20 constantly referring in these articles to The Mahatma Letters.=20=20 Consequently he must have read them. If so, why does he do that which=20=20 he thinks it improper for others to do because of their private=20=20 nature? And why did the magazine Theosophy in its series [of=20=20 articles] later published as The Theosophical Movement [in 1925 as a=20=20 book] constantly quote from documents [written by H.P.B. and] marked=20=20 private and issued to E.S.T. members under pledge of secrecy? Are we=20=20 to suppose that this anonymous writer, or the editors of Theosophy=20=20 Magazine, are above all rules applying to lesser mortals? No, what is=20=20 sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If The Mahatma Letters=20=20 are private documents today, no one without a diploma of sanctity and=20=20 a special permit from the Mahatmas is more entitled to read them than=20=20 any others, or to discourage others from doing what he does himself=20=20 when it suits his purpose ... .Sensible students will not be deterred=20=20 by talk from those who do not practise what they preach." =E2=80=94 The O.E. Library Critic, May-June, 1935. In the above quote from Stokes, he refers to the book The=20=20 Theosophical Movement issued by the top officials of the ULT, Los=20=20 Angeles, CA. Speaking of publishing "private and confidential" communications, in=20=20 Chapter XI ("Work of the Esoteric Section", pp. 163-177) of this ULT=20=20 1925 book, the anonymous author(s) quote(s) from two of H.P.B.'s E.S.=20=20 documents which were marked: "strictly private and confidential". The=20=20 author of this chapter XI writes: "Permissible extracts from the Preliminary Memorandum to the E.S.=20=20 applicants show her esoteric treatment." [Compare: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheTheosophicalMovement-Series/=20=20 in Chapter 11.] Then long extracts are given from this E.S. document. Permissible=20=20 extracts? Who gave the writer of this chapter permission to quote=20=20 from H.P.B.'s "strictly private and confidential" paper? This is not=20=20 discussed in the pages of The Theosophical Movement.=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ G= et more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dennw3k@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 16:51:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 00:51:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 75984 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 00:51:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 00:51:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 00:51:01 -0000 Received: from 1cust31.tnt1.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.219.11.31] helo=u7k5a4) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GqPs-0002ed-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:51:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c295af$a9e57d80$1f0bdb43@u7k5a4> To: References: <4.2.2.20021125114447.02ea78d0@mail.infohiwy.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World Long Posts Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:24:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 That is a good suggestion. I personally think that the Looong messages of Dallas should be in book form. There is so much there that sometimes time or the condition of my eyes don't allow getting it all, and I would like to see it in permanent form. Books are easier for me to read than on screen. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: Theos-World Long Posts > From time to time we see postings of very long messages and one should > appreciate the time it takes to key in long messages. However, it would be > helpful to many subscribers like myself if at the beginning of the long > posts, a short summary can be posted. This way, one can quickly understand > what the writer is trying to say. Just my 0.02. > > mkr From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 17:23:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 01:23:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 64400 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 01:23:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 01:23:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 01:23:32 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.158] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GqvK-0007X3-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:23:30 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [Blavatsky_Study] Re: Re to Steve - Phenomena & Noumena Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:19:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 26 2002 Dear Friend: Re: seeking the goal of perfection Do we become ONE WITH the DIVINE? As I understand it from Theosophy, every nigh we, as Lower Manasic consciousness, when the body is asleep, may come into rapport with the inner "god" -- the HIGHER SELF -- ATMA This is done in "deep sleep" sushupti. And that is the highest and most Universal Spirit present in our universe. [see TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE pp 66 to 78 ] ATMA is UNIVERSAL -- we all share it. Hence Brotherhood is a fact. So we are never separated from the Universal Consciousness. But we need to prove this to ourselves so that we may never feel lonely and abandoned any more. The ONE SPIRIT is our dearest friend. It deals only in truth and purity of motive. Can we find one that is more trustworthy or dearer? Read the BHAGAVAD GITA. It is full of straightforward directions and statements from Sri Krishna (who is in all the HIGHER SELF -- the ATMAN). Why do we not study them, prove them, use them, believe in them? It is more important, I think to find out what barriers we have set up. That is because our past Karma is haunting us and delaying us. Why was Savitri able to see Yama and recover the soul of Satyavan by simple direct truth and logic? That is the important part of the whole legend. What does Sri Krishna mean when he says : "I am seated in the heart of all beings. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all existing things? " "I established this Universe with a single portion of myself, and remain SEPARATE ?" To read is one thing, to understand is another. The second is acquired by deep thinking. We have to use the BUDDHI-MANAS that is ours, and with its help penetrate to ATMA consciously, by making the LOWER MANAS pure of desires and passions. The effort is all done here in daily life. Hence Sri Krishna says: "Act for and as the SELF OF ALL CREATURES. Do not hope for specific "rewards." But we have to be patient. We have lived many lives ignorant of these facts. This incarnation we become aware of them. The force of the past has to be overcome. This takes perseverance, patience and attention. But the work will never be done for us. We have to do it. That is the path of true growth. At its end alone will the GOAL: SUPREME PERFECTION be achieved. Think, nay, meditate on ATMA the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. We are always IN IT. We are never separated from it. Now we have to learn to recognize it everywhere. And we have to voluntarily determine to assist it. And yet every morning we wake up as "ourselves" the Lower Manas, engaged in our small daily duties, and picking up the responsibilities that are our Karma for this new day. Are we changed? Perhaps. We need to review our "dreams" and see what SUSHUPTI (deep sleep) has provided us with. But all final changes and choices are to be made ON THIS PLANE, where our individual battle of Kurukshetra is being fought. We have to make ourselves successful, even if it takes dozens of incarnations. No one can do it for us. And that is only fair. We have made ourselves what we are now. We alone, can "un-make" the past. and change. Can we call our "promises" worthy? Only if we have carried them out faithfully. Divinity and spirituality cannot be bought. There is no "quick fix." best wishes, Dallas ============================= -----Original Message----- From: radarani Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:22 AM To: Subject: - Phenomena & Noumena ---I have a question. What do we will do when we will be unite to the univers Consciusness? Peace & love radarani CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 17:25:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 99203 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 01:25:08 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.158] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18GqvP-0007X3-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:23:36 -0800 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Re - Phenomena & Noumena Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:19:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 26 Dear Friend: Noumena, Phenomena, Thinker and thoughts This is all from our physical plane view. Are there not others ? What is the "thinker?" I though MANAS ( in its duality (according to theosophy) was the THINKER. ) Libido I equate with Kama and "lust." Not very inspiring. Memories, as I see it, are of 2 levels the movable and the immovable. Noumena may be of another plane that the phenomenal. How do you know telepathy is largely if not entirely related to Buddhi ? If, so, then why ? If Buddhi is absolute purity then how could it convey libidinous thoughts? Best wishes, Dal -----Original Message----- From: gschueler Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:14 AM To: Subject: Re - Phenomena & Noumena <<>> Dallas, the thinker is manas and manas does generate mental images or concpetualizations. Manas takes images and interprets/converts them into thoughts. The thinker thinks and analyzes. Phenomena are inferred from our sensory data, and noumena are inferred from ideas and conceptualizations. Maya is the illusion that phenomena and noumena are different from the mind that perceives them. <<>> Jung called it libido, and said that like any energy, it has to be conserved. <<>> Memories are the glue that forms a self. Memories are very subjective and are plastic. <<>> Some noumena may cause phenomena, but not most. I think a better question would be, Are phenomona and noumena located on different planes or are they the planes themselves. <<>> All members of the human life wave are in constant telepathic communication, but most filter this out so well that they are not aware of it. But this communication is through buddhi, not manas. Maya is the illusion that there is any difference between the thinker and his thoughts. Jerry S. From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 17:49:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 01:49:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 30920 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 01:49:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 01:49:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13409.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.172.17) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 01:49:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20021127014901.65820.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.94.6.29] by web13409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:49:01 PST Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:49:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: tricky situation for a theosophist To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000601c295af$a9e57d80$1f0bdb43@u7k5a4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Hello, Well before I get to the topic of this post I would just like to tell you all about some events that have occured in my life these last few days. Nothing life changing or anything like that, rather just one of those things that make you sit back and think. At the moment I am doing my honours thesis and since I am working with plants in their natural setting it entails a lot of field work. Right now is probably the worst time to do such a project. All the bushland (forest, woods etc for those unacquainted with the term) around here is an absolute timberbox on account of the lack of rain (it rained last night and again the sound initially freaked me out before I realised what it was). I was working in some bushland in Western Sydney yesterday morning and I decided to knock off when the temperature hit 40 degrees celcius. Fortunately I did this because shortly after a HUGE fire broke out right where I was working. And when I say huge I mean HUGE. Just that whole situation got me thinking. Alright, enough rambling. So what is this tricky situation for a theosophist? Well recently a woman from Perth, Western Australia, took her own life after she was diagnosed with an illness. This happened a few days ago now so my memory might be a bit hazy. From what I can recall this illness was not life threatening but debilitating enough to require extensive care from family and friends. This woman took her life because she did not want to be a burden on those whom she loved. Now we all know that theosophy does not condone suicide yet theosophy does condone selfless, altruistic actions. The tricky situation for the theosophist is this: should a theosophist support suicide when there is a benficial outcome involved? Pondering with an ember down my pants....mic __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Tue Nov 26 21:12:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 05:12:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 87778 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 05:12:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 05:12:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 05:12:46 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.22] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3CADEED00D2; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:10:34 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021126230515.02a5dd00@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:14:40 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World tricky situation for a theosophist In-Reply-To: <20021127014901.65820.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000601c295af$a9e57d80$1f0bdb43@u7k5a4> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several decades ago, a young man who was depressed and unhappy with life consulted a well known "theosophist" and told him that he wants to kill himself that way his problem will be solved. The "theosophist" pondered a few seconds and talked to him and found out that he had some savings and told him to go to a small city in Mexico and live there for a year and see how things are working out and at the end of the year, if he is still depressed and unhappy, it was ok to kill himself and thus the problem will be solved. It is over 3 decades and the man is still living in Mexico. Recently one of my friends was in the hospital and was not in a good shape and he refused all treatment and his family concurred with his decision. I went and saw him late in the night and took leave of him. Before I took leave, I mentioned that he should give a three month try and see how things work out. I do not know what happened that night, a week later I found him in a far better shape in the hospital after he decided to take treatment. I not sure if any of my comment had any effect on him. As one exposed to theosophy, when I see a suicidal person I would look at the circumstances and see if I can motivate the person to see the bright side of the situation and finally let him/her make whatever decision he/she feels appropriate. mkr At 05:49 PM 11/26/02 -0800, you wrote: >Now we all know that theosophy does not condone >suicide yet theosophy does condone selfless, >altruistic actions. The tricky situation for the >theosophist is this: should a theosophist support >suicide when there is a benficial outcome involved? ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 27 00:47:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 08:47:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 98464 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 08:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 08:47:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 08:47:03 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.a9.324bea32 (3972) for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:47:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:47:00 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon on Dzyan and Senzar... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi M. Sufilight and all of us. In a message dated 11/22/02 1:58:54 PM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi Leon and all of you, > >Allright Leon, that was interesting. Glad you could appreciate it. >I got inspired. >And like an Arjuna in The Bhagavad Gita with his hair standing on his head, >and with tremling voice I dare say: >Maybe this will help a little: I kept seeing Tsong Kha Pa before my eyes >with the Upanishads in his hands - while he was rotating in a strange >looking Tibetan "coffin". I don't know if that tells you anything ? >:-) > >Tibetan Diamonds..! The center of the golden Dorge carried by the Panchen Lama (Which I have held in my hand) has a real 8 sided diamond inside it about the size of your thumb. (I'm just guessing since we've never shaken hands, :-) Look up in the SD where HPB talks of the "Diamond Heart" and explains its nature (as the root of all esoteric symbolism) to the "intuitive student." Hint #1: picture it in your mind, rotate, and view it transparently from all a ngles. Then go inside, link up all the "points" to each other with straight lines (that each have a point at their center) build the walls between all the triangles, and count the "Houses" of God, as well as the "rooms" of all the Chohans -- along with all the other secret (sacred) numbers. Also, while you're flying around looking in at different angles, "see" all the glyphs and symbols used by every religious order and occult society since the beginning of time. Hint #2: Then, imagine all the walls and lines as being infinitely flexible, blow up all the rooms, houses, and the entire diamond into transparent spheres, and "see" the universal field, and all its coadunate inner fields in multidimensional juxtaposition. Hint #3: Visualize the "bubbles" with all their interconnected circumferences capable of being vibrated like bells, and "see" how the universe transmits and stores its wave interference patterns of holographic information or "knowledge." When you can do all that properly, you will find the "philosophers stone," and understand the meaning of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus. This "meditative visualization, by the way, is just one of the many ways to get underway on the "way" to enlightenment. ;-) Patanjali and Lao Tse would love it. It would also help in such visualizing to first read the books, "Stalking the Wild Pendulum" by Itzhak Bentov, and "A New Science of Life" by Rupert Sheldrake -- in that order. Here's a Haiku for you... Real science, poetry, Theosophy and art, Are not so very Far apart. >I liked the Pie though... eehmm the PI. >I still wonder what the "red circle" has to do with Tao ! Maybe it is >getting cold outside... >Yes even a galaxy has Karma...Weird ? I could respond to this better if I knew which "red circle" you were talking about. However, if its the one at the bottom of the chakrafield diagram -- it symbolizes the containment field of the kundalini energy, or possibly, the hidden "dark Matter" spoken about by the cosmologists in order to make sense of their theories of gravitation, the big bang, and the expansion=contraction of the universe. As for its reference to the "Tao," its just another starting point along the "way". I think everything in the Universe has "Karma" of one sort of another -- depending on how you interpret that Sanskrit word -- which has many subtle meanings (depending on its Svarga). All real truths about the nature of the Universe have to appear "weird" from only one of our "inside-out" or "outside-in" points of view. It takes two to tango. >Leon writes at >http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html: >"By the way, the basic story behind ABC was written in the "Book of Dzyan" >(in the ancient "Senzar" hieroglyphic language) recorded on preserved palm >leaves about 8 to 25,000 years ago (so it is said). Besides one translation >into English, with commentaries (The Secret Doctrine, H. P. Blavatsky, The >Theosophy Company, 1888), the original book, so I am told, is now in the >hidden vault archives of a Tibetan monastery high in the Himalayas. >Fortunately, I was able to find a teacher who could explain its esoteric >"formulas" to me in modern scientific terms. It makes much sense. " > >Who was this teacher Leon ? >Is that a secret ? No secret. He was an American physicist (Dr. PSP) who worked on the Atomic Bomb in 1944-45. (Incidentally, he was the nephew of Gurdjieff, if that tells us anything about him.) Since his "trigger mechanism" was used on the Hiroshima bomb, Dr, P had a nervous breakdown... And, to make amends, he became a Trappist Monk and did penance in silence in their monastery for three years after the war. Then, following in the footsteps of Dr, Richard Alpert (who went to Asia to study Tibetan psychology and came back as Baba Ram Dass) Dr. P. went to Nepal and spent several years in a Nyingmapa Monastery to learn the secrets of Buddhist science and their so called "higher magic." In fair exchange for his knowledge of Nuclear physics, he was given the highest Vajrayana Tantra, Yantra, Mantra, etc., initiations, by what he called, "their fast track methods" (dangerous stuff that he revealed to me in confidence, so I cannot speak about it publicly) and was ordained as a Lama. After that, he came back to America as the nurse of an aged High Lama Abbot who required medical care in New York City (in order to fulfill his vows of compassionate service and, as penance for his part in harming so many people, to chant 1 million Om Magne Padme Hums to heal all the other "guilty" Americans :-). After the Abbot died, Dr. P -- who inherited his sacred books and other Tantra effects (as guardian, before sending them back to the Abbot's Monastery in Nepal) -- read to me his translations of passages from the Abbot's Book of the Golden Precepts (Kiu-Ti) while I read to him out of the SD the Fundamental Principles of the Proen, and the Book of Dzyan. He compared the two books, and interpreted the formulas in the Book of Dzyan to me in terms of the most advanced quantum-relativity and superstring physics (which he had brought me up to date on during a series of private discussions that lasted several years). He also confirmed that the SD version of the Book of Dzyan, was, except for a few blinds, a fairly accurate translation of the original. Out of this came the coenergetic field theory of ABC. Unfortunately, Doc P---- (as I called him) died before he was able to finish formulating the mathematics that he said might prove the theory. And, that's doubly unfortunate, from a scientific point of view, since he told me that his "stressor calculus" went one step beyond Einstein's tensor analysis and Feynman's QED energy diagrams. However, it also could be a fortuitous karma for all of us, since he also told me that his equations could very well lead to what he called a "creation bomb" triggered by psychic energy. But, then, it also could give us the free crystal energy of "Vril" that the Atlantians used. So, who's to know the mysterious workings of karma? BTW, much of the "science" in Sylvia Cranston's biography of HPB came from Doc P----, and edited by me. Best wishes, LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html >from >M. Sufilight From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 27 02:43:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 10:43:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 85044 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 10:43:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 10:43:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 10:43:10 -0000 Received: from user-38ldmv8.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.219.232] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Gzes-0007T6-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:43:06 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:39:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021126230515.02a5dd00@mail.gbronline.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 27 2002 Dear MKR Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ? I think you are right. But thinking over our potentials is important. We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we remain alive we can help others if we desire to do that. Suicide, says theosophy is dangerous. Only the physical body is killed. The Inner spiritual Self remains alive on the astral plane for a period equivalent to the length of life on earth. But the blessed peace of rest (as in sleep) becomes denied. Imagine the terrible torture of being kept awake and aware continuously. Further, other kinds of entities (bhuts, pisachas, elementaries, etc..) live actively on the astral plane and we, not knowing the rule and laws of the astral plane, and having no experience there, are not able to "defend" ourselves from their invasion of our privacy. That would be a "hell" for a long number of years. That's what I find that Theosophy teaches. Let me put in here a short Editor's Note from THEOSOPHIST, Nov. 1882, by H P B ---------------- EDITOR'S NOTES (1.) "Inquirer" is not an Occultist, hence his assertion that in some cases suicide "is not only justifiable, but also morally desirable." No more than murder, is it ever justifiable, however desirable it may sometimes appear. The Occultist, who looks at the origin and the ultimate end of things, teaches that the individual--who affirms that any man, under whatsoever circumstances, is called to put an end to his life,--is guilty of as great an offense and of as pernicious a piece of sophistry, as the nation that assumes a right TO KILL IN WAR thousands of innocent people under the pretext of avenging the wrong done to one. All such reasonings are the fruits of Avidya [ignorance] mistaken for philosophy and wisdom. Our friend is certainly wrong in thinking that the writer of FRAGMENTS arrived at his conclusions only because he failed to keep before his mind's eye all the possible cases of suicide. The result, in one sense, is certainly invariable; and there is but one general law or rule for all suicides. But, it is just because "the after-states" vary ad-infinitum, that it is as erroneous to infer that this variation consists only in the degree of punishment. If the result will be in every case the necessity of living out the appointed period of sentient existence, we do not see whence "Inquirer" has derived his notion that "the result is invariably bad." The result is full of dangers; but there is hope for certain suicides, and even in many cases A REWARD if LIFE WAS SACRIFICED TO SAVE OTHER LIVES and that there was no other alternative for it. Let him read para. 7, page 313, in the September THEOSOPHIST, and reflect. Of course, the question is simply generalized by the writer. To treat exhaustively of all and every case of suicide and their after-states would require a shelf of volumes from the British Museum's Library, not our FRAGMENTS. (2.) No man, we repeat, has a right to put an end to his existence simply because it is useless. As well argue the necessity of inciting to suicide all the incurable invalids and cripples who are a constant source of misery to their families.... The instance chosen by "Inquirer" is not a happy one. There is a vast difference between the man who parts with his life in sheer disgust at constant failure to do good, out of despair of ever being useful, or even out of dread to do injury to his fellow-men by remaining alive; and one who gives it up voluntarily to save the lives either committed to his charge or dear to him. One is a half insane misanthrope the other, a hero and a martyr. One takes away his life, the other offers it in sacrifice to philanthropy and to his duty. The captain who remains alone on board of a sinking ship; the man who gives up his place in a boat that will not hold all, in favour of younger and weaker beings; the physician, the sister of charity, and nurse who stir not from the bed-side of patients dying of an infectious fever; the man of science who wastes his life in brain-work and fatigue and knows he is so wasting it and yet is offering it day after day and night after night in order to discover some great law of the universe, the discovery of which may bring in its results some great boon to mankind; the mother that throws herself before the wild beast, that attacks her children, to screen and give them the time to fly; all these are not suicides. The impulse which prompts them thus to contravene the first great law of animated nature--the first instinctive impulse of which is to preserve life--is grand and noble. And, though all these will have to live in the Kama Loka their appointed life term, they are yet admired by all, and their memory will live honoured among the living for a still longer period. We all wish that, upon similar occasions, we may have courage so to die. Not so, surely in the case of the man instanced by "Inquirer." Notwithstanding his assertion that "there is no moral cowardice whatever involved" in such self-sacrifice--we call it decidedly "moral cowardice" and refuse it the name of sacrifice. (3 and 4.) There is far more courage to live than to die in most cases. If "M." feels that he is "positively mischievous," let him retire to a jungle, a desert island; or, what is still better, to a cave or hut near some big city; and then, while living the life of a hermit, a life which would preclude the very possibility of doing mischief to any one, work, in one way or the other, for the poor, the starving, the afflicted. If he does that, no one can "become involved in the effects of his mistaken zeal," whereas, if he has the slightest talent, he can benefit many by simple manual labour carried on in as complete a solitude and silence as can be commanded under the circumstances. Anything is better even being called a crazy philanthropist--than committing suicide, the most dastardly and cowardly of all actions, unless the felo de se is resorted to, in a fit of insanity. (5.) "Inquirer" asks whether his "M." must also be victim of that transformation into spook and pisacha! Judging by the delineation given of his character, by his friend, we should say that, of all suicides, he is the most likely to become a séance-room spook. Guiltless "of any moral turpitude," he may well be. But, since he is afflicted with a "restless disposition which is perpetually urging him on to make an effort to do good"--here, on earth, there is no reason we know of, why he should lose that unfortunate disposition (unfortunate because of the constant failure)--in the Kama Loka. A "mistaken zeal" is sure to lead him on toward various mediums. Attracted by the strong magnetic desire of sensitives and spiritualists, "M." will probably feel "morally bound to diminish the woes to which these sentient beings (mediums and believers) are subject on earth," and shall once more destroy, not only himself, but his "affinities" the mediums. Theosophist, November, 1882 [ H P B Editor ] ------------------ Mr. Judge in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY [Chapter XII -- Kama-Loka] writes ( p. 107) "...with the shells of suicides, of those poor wretches who die at the hand of the law, of drunkards and gluttons, these black magicians living in the astral world hold the field of physical mediumship and are liable to invade the sphere of any medium no matter how good. The door once open, it is open to all. This class of shell has lost higher manas, but in the struggle not only after death but as well in life the lower portion of manas which should have been raised up to godlike excellence was torn away from its lord and now gives this entity intelligence which is devoid of spirit but power to suffer as it will when its final day shall come. In the state of Kama Loka suicides and those who are suddenly shot out of life by accident or murder, legal or illegal, pass a term almost equal to the length life would have been but for the sudden termination. These are not really dead. To bring on a normal death, a factor not recognized by medical science must be present. That is, the principles of the being as described in other chapters have their own term of cohesion, at the natural end of which they separate from each other under their own laws. This involves the great subject of the cohesive forces of the human subject, requiring a book in itself. I must be content therefore with the assertion that this law of cohesion obtains among the human principles. Before that natural end the principles are unable to separate. Obviously the normal destruction of the cohesive force cannot be brought about by mechanical processes except in respect to the physical body. Hence a suicide, or person killed by accident or murdered by man or by order of human law, has not come to the natural termination of the cohesion among the other constituents, and is hurled into the kama loka state only partly dead. There the remaining principles have to wait until the actual natural life term is reached, whether it be one month or sixty years. But the degrees of kama loka provide for the many varieties of the last-mentioned shells. Some pass the period in great suffering, others in a dreamy sort of sleep, each according to the moral responsibility. But executed criminals are in general thrown out of life full of hate and revenge, smarting under a penalty they do not admit the justice of. They are ever rehearsing in kama loka their crime, their trial, their execution, and their revenge. And whenever they can gain touch with a sensitive living person, medium or not, they attempt to inject thoughts of murder [suicide] and other crime into the brain of such unfortunate. And that they succeed in such attempts the deeper students of Theosophy full well know. ====================== I hope this will prove useful Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: mkr Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:15 PM To: Subject: Re: SUICIDE -- A tricky situation for a theosophist Several decades ago, a young man who was depressed and unhappy with life consulted a well known "theosophist" and told him that he wants to kill himself that way his problem will be solved. The "theosophist" pondered a few seconds and talked to him and found out that he had some savings and told him to go to a small city in Mexico and live there for a year and see how things are working out and at the end of the year, if he is still depressed and unhappy, it was ok to kill himself and thus the problem will be solved. It is over 3 decades and the man is still living in Mexico. Recently one of my friends was in the hospital and was not in a good shape and he refused all treatment and his family concurred with his decision. I went and saw him late in the night and took leave of him. Before I took leave, I mentioned that he should give a three month try and see how things work out. I do not know what happened that night, a week later I found him in a far better shape in the hospital after he decided to take treatment. I not sure if any of my comment had any effect on him. As one exposed to theosophy, when I see a suicidal person I would look at the circumstances and see if I can motivate the person to see the bright side of the situation and finally let him/her make whatever decision he/she feels appropriate. mkr At 05:49 PM 11/26/02 -0800, you wrote: >Now we all know that theosophy does not condone >suicide yet theosophy does condone selfless, >altruistic actions. The tricky situation for the >theosophist is this: should a theosophist support >suicide when there is a benficial outcome involved? From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 27 02:53:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 10:53:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 20615 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 10:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 10:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 10:53:02 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.a.2909226d (3972) for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:52:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:52:58 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Adwaita Vedanta, interpretations . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/22/02 9:02:29 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Robert wrote: <interpretation of Vedanta. >> > >Right. Interpretations have to do with duality, and >duality is mayavic. > >Speculatively, >Mauri > >PS And because duality is mayavic, I prefer to keep my >distance, as per "my speculative stance," not that . . . And to that, I agree entirely and positively... Although, only when it comes down to opinions about the nature of God from a religious point of view... But not on the logic of the metaphysics of Cosmogenesis when it depends on the non mayavic existence of the fundamental laws of nature, or of God in Nature. In that, there can be no duality -- since the ALL is a trinity, and that can only be considered as a unity. Therefore, personal experiences, subject to the illusions of Maya (since the inner eye or "I" can only see things as a duality) can never be used as a "proof" of anything. In the Bible or any religious scripture, substitute the word Law for "Lord," and everything becomes clearly understood. When Moses asked the God he spoke to who he was, the answer was "I am that I am" -- which proves that Moses knew he was talking to himself. But how could anyone else know that? Trouble is that those who hear that statement believe that God had to be a separate personality -- since they can't think of themselves as being a unified duality, and their mayavic "experience" also confirms that they are separate from everything else in the Universe. LHM From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 27 03:04:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 11:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 50181 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 11:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 11:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 11:04:30 -0000 Received: from user-38ldmv8.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.219.232] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Gztt-0007XR-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:58:37 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS OCEAN Chapters 4 and 5 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:53:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS ANSWERS CHAPTERS 4 7-Fold Man And 5 Body and Astral Body ======================================================= CHAPTER IV SEPTENARY CONSTITUTION OF MAN Summary THE constitution of man. How the doctrine differs from the ordinary Christian one. The real doctrine known in the first centuries of this era, but purposely withdrawn. The danger if the doctrine had not been withdrawn. The sevenfold division. The principles classified. The divisions agree with the chain of seven globes. The lower man is a composite being. His higher trinity. The lower four principles transitory and perishable. Death leaves the trinity as the only persistent part of us. What the physical man is, and what the other unseen mortal man is. A second physical man not seen but still mortal. The senses pertain to the unseen man and not to the visible one. This fourth chapter deals with the Septenary Constitution of Man; shows how the doctrine differs from the ordinary Christian one; gives the septenary constitution of Man; points to the intimate relation between the Septenary nature of the Earth and the Seven Principles of Man; explains what the real Man is as a being under the terms of Atma, Buddhi, Manas, the trinity or three higher principles; and classifies the transitory four lower principles as aspects of the three higher principles during Man's connection with the terrestrial world. From this treatment it should be clear that Man uses the four lower principles for the benefit of the lives thus used, as well as for his own purposes ================================================== Chapter IV SEPTENARY CONSTITUTION OF MAN Answers ---------------------------------- Q. Mr. Judge refers to the necessity of care of the Self (page 29). If the Self is the cause of all, how could there be care of it? A. The words referred to are not as stated in the question; they read, "the care of soul, which is the Self." It is through the Soul-the acquired experience-that Self perceives and acts; it is by means of Soul that Self learns to know Itself as of another nature than its experience, perceptions or embodiments. In the sense that there is no Soul possible without the Self, or, in other words, there are no perceptions or experience possible without the Perceiver-the Soul is the Self; therefore the growth of soul depends upon the more and more full realization of the unchanging Self: this involves for us a "care" that we understand the nature and purpose of existence. Q. On page 30, the chapter speaks of "rational and irrational " soul. Could you explain the phrase? A. "Rational soul" means that stage of evolved being which is self-conscious, and "irrational soul," those stages which are conscious, but not self-conscious. There is a gulf between the highest conscious animal and the lowest self-conscious man in respect to the sense of responsibility; man is responsible for his thoughts, words and deeds; the animal has no such perception, and thus is called irrational. Manas is active in Man whether in its higher or lower aspect; in the animal it is latent. The term "irrational soul" has also been used to designate that class of human mentality which is wholly engrossed in physical existence. Q. How does "This three-fold scheme of the nature of man" contain "the Theosophical teaching of his seven fold constitution", as stated on page 30? A. The answer is in the context, "because the four other divisions missing from the category can be found in the powers and functions of body and p.61 soul, as I shall attempt to show later on." The whole of the chapter is devoted to the answer practically; the last paragraph in the chapter gives a recapitulation, which if thought over will help to clarify, and explain. Q. In what sense am I "my brother's keeper"? A. Each being is of the same essential nature- Spirit; each evolves from within outward, and each at any given period occupies that place in the great community of souls which his degree of attainment provides. As all are from, and of, the same Source, and all are proceeding towards the same goal, the more progressed are in nature bound to help the lesser; the law of Karma inherent in each being provides for the adjustment of effects to causes. A general answer would imply that we are our brother's keeper in every sense; the more we know of the common source, nature and purpose of all, the better able we are "to keep our brother." Q. How is ii that "Behind will, stands desire"? It seems as though it should be reversed. A. We do not act until there is desire or intention to do so; Will is the force of consciousness in action. Will, being the force behind action or desire, is colorless; it is colored by the nature of the desire or feeling. No desire, no action. It is the motive or desire behind the use of our colorless will power that qualifies the action of our thought, word or deed. Q. Why is it that we cling so to bodily existence? A. Because of our desire to so do, knowing no better. Our desire sets in action our Will in that direction, and by our desire and desires, we make attractions and attachments that hold us. As all our powers spring from and rest in the Self-or Spirit, and as we use those powers for sentient physical existence, the bondage is strong. Release comes from a full and true understanding of our own and all nature, when the powers of Spirit will be employed for all, and in all directions, and not exercised as they are, in one direction only, physically and in pursuit of personal desires. Q. What is the difference between the individuality and the personality? A. "Individuality," theosophically defined, is the Higher Ego; "personality" is the false ego: that aspect of the reincarnating ego which is connected with, and immersed in, terrestrial existence and imagines itself to be the senses, qualities, and faculties which it possesses physically. Q. What would you call "soul powers"? A. All powers of every kind are soul powers; those powers we use-or rather misuse-in our every-day existence are soul-powers. It is the misuse of "soul powers" that brings karmic retribution. Q. How can thought be so powerful? A. Because every form seen by us, or unseen, is endowed with intelligence in some degree; because thought precedes action and institutes it, and be cause the effects of thought are consciously or un consciously felt by beings near and remote, arousing them to some kind of action. Thought does not exist of itself-it is always the product of some Thinker; every thought is in regard to some thing and produces an image of that thing; the concentration of the Thinker upon the matrix he has created draws into it the lives that swarm in the terrestrial atmosphere, energizes them and gives them direction, according to the motive and desire of the Thinker; this matrix, made a living force, can insidiously impel to action other Thinkers whose natures and desires are similar, or who have the seeds of such desires within them, and all this whether the creator of the matrix is conscious of the results or not. "Thought" or more correctly, the ability to think, is the most powerful creative, destructive, preservative or regenerative agent that any beings possess; it acts weakly and strongly, ac cording to the knowledge and power of concentration of the Thinker. In occultism, "thought" is the real plane of action; what we see or perceive physically are merely the effects of thought. Q. Unity is spoken of; how can there be unity in all these separated or different principles? A. All the principles are merely aspects of the One Principle; more or less conditioned modes and bases of thought and action. Unity lies in the fact that all temporary differentiations proceed from, and rest in, the essential spiritual nature of all beings. There could be no diversity without unity as a basis. We all live, and life in all of us is a unity, but our use and expressions of life present great diversities. Q. Will we always have an earth and an earthly body? Or will we ever get above this altogether? A. It is not a question of earthly, or what we now perceive as physical matter. Wherever we exist, it must be in some form of substance as an embodiment, and that then will be as objective to us as is our present earthly matter. So long as manifestation endures, experience of any kind implies objectivity on every plane; if there is no basis for experience, there is no experience. The trouble is not with the earth as it now is or ever will be, it is with ourselves, imbued as we are with false conceptions of every kind. We have the power to understand our nature and the nature of all beings, and through that understanding to purify our own natures, and in so doing raise up and purify the natures of others like ourselves, as well as the beings below us. We cannot leave the earth until we have done our part to the full, and then it will be so different that perhaps we will not want to leave it, although we will have earned the right to choose. Read the Voice of the Silence. Q. What is meant by "each principle is correlated to a plane, a planet, and a race" (page 30) ? A. The Root and substratum of all that is, is Spirit, Self-existing and All-pervading. It is the Unity within which all differentiation takes place. The Unity is not destroyed because of any number of diversities that may be evolved from and within It; an efficient Cause is not eliminated as long as there is a basis in which effects may be produced. Manifestation means differentiation from and within the Unity; the statement of the Secret Doctrine is that manifestation or differentiation proceeds in seven ways or stages, that this applies to all degrees of substance and all forms, and all kinds of beings. Man is shown to hove seven principles; He de rived these principles one at a time, as differentiation of the planet proceeded; therefore each principle of Man is correlated to a particular stage of differentiation of the planet. Each planet, again, in our solar system has seven principles, so that Man, planets and solar systems have as their constituent parts similar principles, and each principle in Man, planets or solar systems, is co-related to the others; there is therefore an active or latent relation between each and every form and being, which, as we grow in knowledge and wisdom, may be availed of. Humanity, as a whole, proceeds also in seven stages, concurrently with the conditions of the planet, and thus at each stage is called a Race, each of which, again, has its seven subdivisions expressed again in a number of septenary ways. So, from top to bottom and in every direction, there is a channel, plane and relation between every form and being and every other, from highest to lowest; and this relation exists, whether any being in any particular state of perception is aware of it or not. Knowledge of this great fact, and the arousing within ourselves of the necessary conditions, will enable us to use and direct the seven-fold occult forces. All nature is before us and within us; we must therefore take and use what we can, and wisely; the steps necessary are shown in Theosophy and no one of these may be overpassed. Q. Do the principles exist independent of each other? A. Each principle is derived from and exists within the One Supreme Principle; as the lowest principle is so derived, and depends upon the chain of principles above it and from which it was directly derived: the principles are interdependent. For instance, we may take the body as the lowest principle; there are bodies on earth all the time as long as humanity lasts, but our present bodies had their beginnings and will have their dissipation. The reason why we have the present body is because we occupied bodies before, having established the "principle" of sentient bodily existence. When we leave the body, it returns to the elements from which it was drawn, but the "principle" of bodily expression re mains in us and will be expressed in another body at sonic future time. The principles remain, although the operation of those principles and the tendency to repeat is periodical. Q. What is a principle? A. A principle is a basis for thought and action in connection with a specific plane of substance. To be conscious on any plane of being, implies that one is acting in, and with, that principle in himself which corresponds to that particular plane of being. Q. Why is Prana, the Life principle in the body, called transitory? It would seem as though Life must always be. A. The Sanscrit term for the One Life which permeates and sustains all the principles is Jiva. Prana is that aspect of the One Life which sustains and permeates the physical body. When that aspect is withdrawn the body disintegrates. That aspect being withdrawn from the body is used in the remaining principles or those which the late bodily occupant is conscious in and upon. ===================================================== CHAPTER V BODY AND ASTRAL BODY Summary The body and life principle. The mystery of life. Sleep and death are due to excess of life not bear able by the organism. The body an illusion. What is the cell. Life is universal. It is not the result of the organism. The Astral Body. What it is made of. Its power and functions. As a model for the body. It is possessed by all kingdoms of nature. Its power to travel. The real sense organs are in the astral body. The place the astral body has at spiritualistic seances. The astral body accounts for telepathy, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and all such psychical phenomena. ====================================== Chapter V BODY AND ASTRAL BODY Answers ----------------------------------------- Q. What is it that causes us to identify ourselves as the body? A. One of the forms of ignorance that Theosophy is intended to destroy, the most ordinary of which is the idea that "we" are our bodies. Q. What other forms of ignorance are there? A. It would be impossible to enumerate them; all forms of ignorance spring from lack of true knowledge, and are almost infinite in kind. The beginning of knowledge lies in a true conception of the essential spiritual nature of all beings, aside from all forms, faculties and expressions; in other words the permanent, un changing basis which is the Causeless cause and sustainer of all is the center of every being, and is the Self in each. Then follow the various steps in unfolding- or evolution, seven in number and the general law which governs all, as well as the subsidiary laws or operations which govern every step or plane of descent and ascent. Any conception which leaves out the whole of Nature is based on ignorance. Q. Is matter just an aggregation of lives? A. What we call "Matter" is made up of the forms of innumerable kinds of beings, each of them conscious in its own degree; these we perceive only partially with our limited five senses. Matter is what we are able to perceive. As we rise higher in the scale of perception, that which is now invisible to us will become objective and will also be "matter." The real Man is the Perceiver. Q. It would seem as though we had degraded or stupefied these lower lives by our use? A. The degradation is in ourselves-we are responsible; the lower or lesser lives are not-they act according to the impulses we give them and re act upon us. Q. What would be the mode of ingress and egress of these lives? A. Through the openings in the body; the pores of the skin; by endosmosis and exosmosis; by means of food, drink and breathing; even the hairs of the head and body are channels. Q. Why is it that Man attracts certain kinds of lives to him, and animals different kinds? A. Each being "attracts" according to its nature. Q. Can the "electron" be defined? A. The word "electron" is a name given by scientists to something which they realize makes up the atom. The scientists have no idea of the nature of what they have discovered, some imagining that the electron is not matter, but a form or forms of energy; but all are as much in the dark as when they supposed that the "atom" was the ultimate division of matter. Q. How about the nature of the drunkard? He is always desirous of taking something detrimental into his body. A. He has so trained the "lives" in his body that they call for certain stimulants. There is a verse which says that "it is not what goeth into the mouth that defileth, but what cometh out of it." We may not be physically drunken with wine, and be drunk en with ignorance and self-righteousness. A drunkard can stop drinking more easily than the generality of people can stop their selfishness and desires. Q. Would not an understanding of our septenary nature tend to change a diseased body into a normal one? A. We might understand a great deal, and not use our understanding; no results would flow from non-application of what we know. We must live what we know, and this includes all departments of our nature. When our inner natures are pure, sweet and true, the body will respond; but our bodies are the least of our disabilities. Q. Do you think that with a proper care of the instrument, w could work out our past karma in a present body? (Could not one live in the same body for thousands of years, building up new tissue all the time? A. The length of life in any body is determined by the past karma of the Ego who enters it; this climacteric may be overpassed by one who knows, but the process necessitates the gradual death of the body before the time, also conditions that modern ideas and surroundings do not furnish. Our first need is to know and express our real nature; after which there are many possibilities. We must know Life as it is, and from within, before we can give more than ordinary care to the body; the latter is not our immediate concern. Q. Is there not such a thing as overcoming the limitation set on any particular life? A. The previous answer covers that sufficiently for our purpose. There is too much thought in regard to bodily existence; the body is an instrument obtained by us through our own karma, as are our tendencies and surroundings; we can only obtain better conditions by meriting them, and our present conditions are the means by which that merit can be attained. It is not the body or its environment that is the real cause of trouble, hut our attitude towards them. Q. As we now stand, we would make better progress by using the bodies we have to the best advantage, in the hope of deserving to get a better one in a new incarnation. A. If getting a better body, now or in a future incarnation, is our object, we are still "bound fast in the web of illusion." Make the best use of what we have should be our course, and the best use re quires a knowledge of the philosophy of life- Theosophy. Q. Won't Nature make it easy for us sometime? A. When we make it easy for Nature. We embody Nature; Nature is a product of ourselves and other beings. When we establish harmonious relations between all parts of our own nature, it will be "easy" for us. But to talk of ease, when effort is needed, is folly. Q. What is the relation between the Individuality and the Personality? A. "Individuality" is a conscious existence in spirit whether in or out of the body. "Personality" is a congeries of constantly changing qualities and conditions which the "Thinker," or Ego, mistakes for himself; thus "the illusion of objects" is self- produced. Q. Is the Astral body full-sized at birth? The statement is made that it is perfect at birth (page 40). A. There is no such statement made as that the Astral body is perfect at birth; what is said is that "the model for the growing child in the womb is the astral body already perfect in shape." The Astral body grows apace with the physical; the phrase "full-sized at birth" has no meaning, since all bodies vary in size and dimensions from birth to old age. The model of the oak is in the acorn. A small photo can be magnified a thousand times, perfect in every detail. Q. What is meant by the "privative limits of a cell?" A. There is no physical cell as something existing separately; our bodies are entities, but they are made up of smaller entities. Each center of every entity has its own radius of action, causing a whirling or vortex around it; it is the lives drawn within this radial vortex that constitute the "cell"; the central attraction draws them in and holds them at their respective distances so to speak; it is this balance between attraction and repulsion that constitutes the privative limits. Q. Would you explain the meaning of the phrase "The Highest looks out through the eyes of the lowest"? A. Every cell in the body has its own life and powers or range of perception, and cells differ from each other in this respect. It is through the many kinds of lives in our bodies that we have contact with and perception upon the physical plane; hence it can be said that we look through the eyes of the lowest. The same is also true of beings higher than we. Our contact as "perceivers" with any plane of substance is only possible by means of an instrument made up of the "lives" of that plane. Each of such lives is a sensitive point, and reflects the plane to which it belongs to some degree. Sufficient of these lives drawn together on a particular plane will give an embodiment of "sensitive points" capable of reflecting everything on that plane; so that on any plane, "the highest sees through the eyes of the lowest." "Highest" and "lowest" here mean differences in range of perception, understanding, wisdom and power. Q. Is the "permanent astral" the Spiritual body? A. It is not. It is a body formed of astral sub stance during a life-time by the reincarnating ego; when so formed it remains with all its powers and functions as the astral form for succeeding lives. In ordinary cases, a new astral is projected for each birth, with nothing but the acquired tendencies as a starting point. Q. Is the Astral body affected by insanity? A. No "body" of any kind is either sane or insane. Insanity is a break in the connection between the Ego and the body in use, and may be partial or complete; such a break is due to the karma of the individual and may be from physical, astral or psychic plane causes set in motion by the individual involved. Q. Would a Master's assumption of a body be of the nature of an immaculate conception? A. If a Master should desire to use a physical body of the race, He would either take an available one which was being discarded by its original ten ant, or would "ensoul" one, produced in the ordinary way. The physical line of evolution is maintained by the union of the sexes in, this age. Q. On page 36 it says, in sleep we are absorbing life; and later on in the paragraph it says that when we fall asleep we are more full of life than in the morning. This seems a contradiction to me? A. If the paragraph had been read with attention no contradiction would appear. In sleep we are absorbing and not resisting the Life Energy; when we wake we are resisting it; when we fall asleep we are more full of life than in the morning be cause our power to resist becomes less and less during the waking hours; we become "charged" with the Life Energy, until, no longer able to resist it, sleep supervenes. Q. Didn't H. P. B. say that Devachan was a fool's paradise? A. it is a question whether H.P.B. used the phrase in exactly that way, but admitting that it was used, is it not true that each being makes his own paradise, his own Devachan, according to his idea of bliss; and as Devachan, an illusion of the personality, cannot be called a state of the wise, the phrase "a fool's paradise" as a colloquialism might very well apply. Is it not fortunate that even one whom we consider a "fool" can have his paradise? The spiritual nature of "being" provides all these compensations, each according to its kind. Q. It is said that the astral body was evolved long ages before the physical body; then Man was using the astral body long ages before the physical was evolved. A. As was specifically stated in previous chapters, evolution proceeds from homogeneous sub stance to more and more concrete states of substance or matter, the lower states being evolved from the higher, each stage taking immense periods of time; it follows therefore that the evolution of the astral body preceded that of the physical form by many ages; in fact, at each birth, the same process is rapidly gone through; even the early stages of physical evolution are repeated during gestation. ========================================================== From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 27 03:15:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 11:15:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 19874 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 11:15:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 11:15:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d09.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 11:15:33 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ca.15292bdb (3972) for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:15:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:15:30 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World acoustic hologram - to Leon To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/22/02 11:04:24 PM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: >Leon, > >Is the concept of an acoustic hologram consistent with >your ABC theory? I'm not too sure what you mean by an "acoustic hologram." However, if it refers to the internal transformation of interference patterns of acoustic waves interpreted as a holographic image in our mind as a result the separation of our ears (as our eye separation contributes to the visual hologram) and, thus, tells us where the sound came from in the 3-D space surrounding us -- I would say that it is perfectly consistent with the ABC theory. Regards, Leon Maurer From dhyana@web.de Wed Nov 27 04:26:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 12:26:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 94390 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 12:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 12:26:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 12:26:54 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gARCQoK10211 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:26:50 +0100 Received: from captainak7j46l (cppp-245.blinx.de [62.96.222.245]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gARCQlC10158 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:26:47 +0100 Message-ID: <003101c29610$4762b6d0$f5de603e@captainak7j46l> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's latest posting Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:26:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.245 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel: So Brian are you telling us that I too could get a website on the SAME server as your website is located? Are you telling us that you don't have to be affiliated with the University of Vienna to have a website on that server? Compare http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html with http://mailbox.univie.ac.at Gee, I could put up a mirror site of Blavatsky Archives. That way our friend from Germany couldn't say the University of Vienna is anti- Blavatsky, etc. :) If I got such a site, are you telling me that I could even start signing my emails: Daniel Caldwell (University of Vienna) Frank: Yeah, and our German friend and perhaps the thinking part among the theosophists, too, would me much more happy if they could say that not only the University of Myalba but all the other Universities of the former Habsburg power territory are not the worst enemies of Blavatsky. I am just reminded to Miss Astrid Kury's 2000 dissertation an Occultism and modern arts in Vienna with a strange chapter about HPB and the theosophists in the style of Peter Washington, Marion Meade, etc. - done at the University of Graz, which is another big city in Austria. For information about that hodge-podge of prejudices and slanders on HPB see under: http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/moderne/pubkur.htm If it is right that Socialism and Communism ("We are all equal") in its several variations was invented by the background power in the Vatican to destroy the Protestant movement in Germany, then it is no wonder why the ruling red caps and the pupils of the Frankfurt school in Austria (and also in Germany) are so furious about HPB, as Theosophy was brought to the West to stop Socialism under all its masks. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Nov 27 05:54:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 13:54:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 3704 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 13:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 13:54:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 13:54:13 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.49] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE0314B900E6; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:52:03 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021127075259.00a3b320@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:56:09 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.5.2.20021126230515.02a5dd00@mail.gbronline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dallas: Thanks for the post of HPB's article on the subject. From what I have heard, it appears that those who are suicidal tend to be single minded and it is very difficult to change their thinking. However, if we are put in a position to be of help, I think each one of us have the responsibility to do what we can to dissuade the person from going ahead and committing suicide. ...mkr At 02:39 AM 11/27/02 -0800, dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: >Dear MKR > > Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ? > >I think you are right. But thinking over our potentials is important. >We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we remain alive we can >help others if we desire to do that. ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 27 08:18:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 16:18:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 95651 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 16:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 16:18:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 16:18:07 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A8004809CE for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:18:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <007801c2962f$c9b7f220$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon on Dzyan and Senzar... Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:12:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Leon and all of you, Thanks Leon ! The below letter of yours Leon, - is considered by me, to be among the most important I have ever received here at Theos-talk. But being ignorant, I am probably wrong. 1. There are a lot of info in it to me, and I have a strong feeling of it as being of greater importance. Especially the stories about the Lamas made a great impression on me. Leon wrote in the below: "He also confirmed that the SD version of the Book > of Dzyan, was, except for a few blinds, a fairly accurate translation of the > original. " My Sufilight answer: This is exactly a similar inner experience I have had about the book of Dyzan by Blavatsky ! And the errors are in fact minor in a very rather unexplainable manner - due to karmic patterns and vibrations and the like. True ?! 2. Well... Leon I will for sure, do my best to be much more, all ears and eyes on your teachings in the future. Your email sparks a number of questions: But the language used in the volumes of Kiu-Ti, which was or is that, more precisely; ? (Anyone else on this ?) How are the letters made ? Do they have different colours, different size, is red not always quite that red etc... ? Do you know that, or maybe where the info can be received on that ? 3. Yes. There is something there - about - the Panchen Lama (through time)...But what ? Maybe Politics versus non-violence...hmm...eeehmm... 4. Well, - I think I have shaken your hand before in a previous live. But which... Or maybe it is because I can feel - sort of - your - "cosmic" vibrations here in Denmark. 5. Sylvia Cranstons book is allright. But has a tendency to be non-critical. Benthov's book I have looked in to. Rupert Sheldrakes as well. I like the ancient Upanishads much more, and as they are very close to be identical with Theosophy as such, I feel allright with them. 6. I have lately been more and more concerned with the search for any parallels between HPB's book The Secret Doctrine, Dyzan, Kiu-Ti - and - the Buddhist teachings - especially Tibetan tachings. So any inspiring or inspired info are welcome... 7. The "red circle" or nose is at : http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/manfields.html I hope 'it' won't get cold.... >:-) 8. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a nervous breakdown like your friend the Monk - Dr. P.... (Well, I guess this was a joke...>:-)...) Feel free to do your best... Feel free to participate in to the knowledge and wisdom of Kiu-Ti...doing your best... from M. Sufilight with peace as a priority... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon on Dzyan and Senzar... > Hi M. Sufilight and all of us. > > In a message dated 11/22/02 1:58:54 PM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > >Hi Leon and all of you, > > > >Allright Leon, that was interesting. > > Glad you could appreciate it. > > >I got inspired. > >And like an Arjuna in The Bhagavad Gita with his hair standing on his head, > >and with tremling voice I dare say: > >Maybe this will help a little: I kept seeing Tsong Kha Pa before my eyes > >with the Upanishads in his hands - while he was rotating in a strange > >looking Tibetan "coffin". I don't know if that tells you anything ? >:-) > > > >Tibetan Diamonds..! > > The center of the golden Dorge carried by the Panchen Lama (Which I have held > in my hand) has a real 8 sided diamond inside it about the size of your > thumb. (I'm just guessing since we've never shaken hands, :-) > > Look up in the SD where HPB talks of the "Diamond Heart" and explains its > nature (as the root of all esoteric symbolism) to the "intuitive student." > Hint #1: picture it in your mind, rotate, and view it transparently from all a > ngles. Then go inside, link up all the "points" to each other with straight > lines (that each have a point at their center) build the walls between all > the triangles, and count the "Houses" of God, as well as the "rooms" of all > the Chohans -- along with all the other secret (sacred) numbers. Also, while > you're flying around looking in at different angles, "see" all the glyphs and > symbols used by every religious order and occult society since the beginning > of time. Hint #2: Then, imagine all the walls and lines as being infinitely > flexible, blow up all the rooms, houses, and the entire diamond into > transparent spheres, and "see" the universal field, and all its coadunate > inner fields in multidimensional juxtaposition. Hint #3: Visualize the > "bubbles" with all their interconnected circumferences capable of being > vibrated like bells, and "see" how the universe transmits and stores its wave > interference patterns of holographic information or "knowledge." When you > can do all that properly, you will find the "philosophers stone," and > understand the meaning of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus. This > "meditative visualization, by the way, is just one of the many ways to get > underway on the "way" to enlightenment. ;-) Patanjali and Lao Tse would love > it. > > It would also help in such visualizing to first read the books, "Stalking the > Wild Pendulum" by Itzhak Bentov, and "A New Science of Life" by Rupert > Sheldrake -- in that order. > > Here's a Haiku for you... > > Real science, poetry, > Theosophy and art, > Are not so very > Far apart. > > >I liked the Pie though... eehmm the PI. > >I still wonder what the "red circle" has to do with Tao ! Maybe it is > >getting cold outside... > >Yes even a galaxy has Karma...Weird ? > > I could respond to this better if I knew which "red circle" you were talking > about. However, if its the one at the bottom of the chakrafield diagram -- it > symbolizes the containment field of the kundalini energy, or possibly, the > hidden "dark Matter" spoken about by the cosmologists in order to make sense > of their theories of gravitation, the big bang, and the expansion=contraction > of the universe. As for its reference to the "Tao," its just another > starting point along the "way". > > I think everything in the Universe has "Karma" of one sort of another -- > depending on how you interpret that Sanskrit word -- which has many subtle > meanings (depending on its Svarga). > > All real truths about the nature of the Universe have to appear "weird" from > only one of our "inside-out" or "outside-in" points of view. It takes two to > tango. > > >Leon writes at > >http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html: > >"By the way, the basic story behind ABC was written in the "Book of Dzyan" > >(in the ancient "Senzar" hieroglyphic language) recorded on preserved palm > >leaves about 8 to 25,000 years ago (so it is said). Besides one translation > >into English, with commentaries (The Secret Doctrine, H. P. Blavatsky, The > >Theosophy Company, 1888), the original book, so I am told, is now in the > >hidden vault archives of a Tibetan monastery high in the Himalayas. > >Fortunately, I was able to find a teacher who could explain its esoteric > >"formulas" to me in modern scientific terms. It makes much sense. " > > > >Who was this teacher Leon ? > >Is that a secret ? > > No secret. He was an American physicist (Dr. PSP) who worked on the Atomic > Bomb in 1944-45. (Incidentally, he was the nephew of Gurdjieff, if that tells > us anything about him.) Since his "trigger mechanism" was used on the > Hiroshima bomb, Dr, P had a nervous breakdown... And, to make amends, he > became a Trappist Monk and did penance in silence in their monastery for > three years after the war. Then, following in the footsteps of Dr, Richard > Alpert (who went to Asia to study Tibetan psychology and came back as Baba > Ram Dass) Dr. P. went to Nepal and spent several years in a Nyingmapa > Monastery to learn the secrets of Buddhist science and their so called > "higher magic." In fair exchange for his knowledge of Nuclear physics, he > was given the highest Vajrayana Tantra, Yantra, Mantra, etc., initiations, by > what he called, "their fast track methods" (dangerous stuff that he revealed > to me in confidence, so I cannot speak about it publicly) and was ordained as > a Lama. After that, he came back to America as the nurse of an aged High Lama > Abbot who required medical care in New York City (in order to fulfill his > vows of compassionate service and, as penance for his part in harming so many > people, to chant 1 million Om Magne Padme Hums to heal all the other "guilty" > Americans :-). > > After the Abbot died, Dr. P -- who inherited his sacred books and other > Tantra effects (as guardian, before sending them back to the Abbot's > Monastery in Nepal) -- read to me his translations of passages from the > Abbot's Book of the Golden Precepts (Kiu-Ti) while I read to him out of the > SD the Fundamental Principles of the Proen, and the Book of Dzyan. He > compared the two books, and interpreted the formulas in the Book of Dzyan to > me in terms of the most advanced quantum-relativity and superstring physics > (which he had brought me up to date on during a series of private discussions > that lasted several years). He also confirmed that the SD version of the Book > of Dzyan, was, except for a few blinds, a fairly accurate translation of the > original. Out of this came the coenergetic field theory of ABC. > > Unfortunately, Doc P---- (as I called him) died before he was able to finish > formulating the mathematics that he said might prove the theory. And, that's > doubly unfortunate, from a scientific point of view, since he told me that > his "stressor calculus" went one step beyond Einstein's tensor analysis and > Feynman's QED energy diagrams. However, it also could be a fortuitous karma > for all of us, since he also told me that his equations could very well lead > to what he called a "creation bomb" triggered by psychic energy. But, then, > it also could give us the free crystal energy of "Vril" that the Atlantians > used. So, who's to know the mysterious workings of karma? BTW, much of the > "science" in Sylvia Cranston's biography of HPB came from Doc P----, and > edited by me. > > Best wishes, > > LHM > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html > > >from > >M. Sufilight > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Nov 27 08:22:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 16:22:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 7363 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 16:22:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 16:22:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 16:22:08 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-17.look.ca ([216.154.45.64] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18H4wu-00063X-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:22:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3DE4F18E.3FFCD4D8@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:23:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Universal Seekers , Theosophy Study List Subject: re: spirit/matter, dualicity, maya . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn "Subject" here might be: spirit/matter, duality, maya . . . Gerald wrote: <> I think I still have Gerald's permission to quote him, so will be sending this post to Theos-Talk and US, as well. I tend to suspect that the "flowing" "between" "spirit" and "matter" (as the quotes are meant to "suggest," sort of, "by me," "I think" . . .) might somewhat "more-relevantly be seen"---ahem--- ^:-). . . (in a sense, in terms of an "overview" that might be seen as "somewhat less influenced by usualistic [or "usualic," as contrasted with "usual"?] wording," say . . . ) as a "karmic/dualic (or "dualistic") perspective," (which "perspective," in turn, might be somewhat more-relevantly seen---"in some cases"?--- as an "engagement of attention" brought on by a karmic/dualic process that, in turn, might have (?) transcendent/noumenic roots in, say, a by-productive aspect of atma-buddhi . . .) . . . Well . . . (I "was" going to put quotes on those last three dots, in fact actually DID put quotes on them, but then thought . . . "well" . . .) <> Believe it or not, I'm trying to be . . . in a sense, "as serious and meaningful as I can be," generally speaking, as I write this post, regardless of how my attempts might SEEM. Not that I have strict rules about "optional interpretations." Although . . . I'm wondering if Gerald here refers to that "One Substance" (whatever that might be, or is it the "small m monad," maybe . . .) as being "maya" only in as much as it's seen in a dualistic sense . . . And I'm wondering if "take it all too seriously" might be a reference to, in other words (?), such as: "take it all too exclusively dualistically seriously, say . . .", in a sense . . . <> Or, in other words (?), "spirit/matter" might be seen as a by-productive/co-existing "apparent aspect" along with various "apparent manasic life-engagements" brought on by a "karmic-dualic (okay, "duaLISTic," if you prefer) processing" that, itself, "is" (or "migh be". . .) the "apparent karmic/duaLISTic apparent (mayavic) aspect" of what "transcends it in an apparent atma-buddhic sense" . . . and/"and," etc/"etc" . . . as per the "exoteric version" as per "my speculative tendencies" . . . "as per" . . . ^:-) . . . /". . ." I hope wasn't too seriously/exclusively dualistic, in this post, or "anything too too" . . . Not to mention . . .Of course there seem to be ("are"?) too many not-to-mentions, so . . . Speculatively, Mauri From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Nov 27 09:47:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 17:47:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 94234 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 17:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 17:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 17:47:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 74370 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 17:48:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.240) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 17:48:04 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.240 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 12:48:04(EST) on November 27, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.240 To: Subject: becoming a producer of happiness Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:47:06 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2963d$012fb370$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mic: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mic Forster [mailto:micforster@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:49 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World tricky situation for a theosophist > > I was working in some bushland in > Western Sydney yesterday morning and I decided to > knock off when the temperature hit 40 degrees celcius. > Fortunately I did this because shortly after a HUGE > fire broke out right where I was working. And when I > say huge I mean HUGE. Just that whole situation got me > thinking. It sounds like someone is looking out for you. When something harmful comes our way, we somehow know to avoid it if it is not our time to pass on. > So what is this tricky > situation for a theosophist? Well recently a woman ... > was diagnosed with an illness ... not life > threatening but debilitating enough to require > extensive care from family and friends. This woman > took her life because she did not want to be a burden > on those whom she loved. > > should a theosophist support > suicide when there is a benficial outcome involved? I do not think that any of us is in the position to judge when a life has value and should continue or if a life should be terminated. One could ask if an embryo identified as having some genetic disorder should be aborted because it would come into the world deformed. One could decide what to do with older people in nursing homes, those who are severely disabled, comatose, or psychologically out of it. Should they be helped on, or required to live to their last natural breath? Someone with special needs should have an equal right to live, even if they require more time, care, and attention than others do. They should not have to decide if their request for help and support is a burden or not. Friends, family, and others give what support they can. Perhaps being required to be more caring and supportive by the needs of a close family member is a spiritual blessing in disguise for the person compelled to practice compassion and be more giving. The idea that one should not exist because it would just be a burden to others may be a rationalization. It may not be the real reason. True soul searching is required to find out the true "why's" behind one's desires. One could simply be thinking that life is too much trouble, feel bitter at wanting things to be different and finding that life coldly says, "No, you have to life in these circumstances, not in those you'd more fondly desire." Feeling so, one might be saying one wants to do something for others, by being less of a burden, whereas one really feels that life is unfair, one is cheated, and simply wants out. But life is not trying to be unfair, the problem and source of the pain is in the denial. One denies one's circumstances in life, and creates a false sense of misery by wanting things different than they are and failing to accept life as it actually is. One of the lessons of old age is accepting life with happiness. One is happy to simply be alive. Looking good, being in top health and physical beauty, having wealth, being famous, and all other sorts of things are not important any more. One is glad to wake up each day, step out one's door, and walk down the sidewalk, seeing the houses, flowers and trees, children at play, and puffy white clouds in the sky. The little things of life take on special meaning. Every day is an adventure, because the discord between one's mental image of how things should be and how things actually are has ended. One is at peace and happy with what happens, and simply goes day to day doing what comes naturally to one. There may or may not be physical pain and suffering. Even if so, there are many things that keep making life valuable, even if it's one last day to squeeze one's grandchildren's hands, as one lies in bed in one's last few days of dying of cancer. Not all endings are painful or sad, but every moment has its special value that should not be thrown away. The solution to the problem of wanting out of life is the same solution that we seek on the spiritual path. First, there comes thoughts of escape from the limitations and suffering of the world. Then one ceases to reject the world, but embraces it with the same love one embraces the spiritual side of things. Then one changes from being a receiver of blessings and benefits to a producer of good things. One transforms from a consumer of the light of others to being a light in the world. In that role, one finds the highest happiness. -- Eldon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From levey_steven@hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 09:58:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 17:58:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 36363 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 17:58:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 17:58:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.15.133) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 17:58:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:58:11 -0800 Received: from 67.227.11.135 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:58:11 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:58:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Nov 2002 17:58:11.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D0837E0:01C2963E] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.135] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Dallas-Thanks for such a thorough response to the issue. One further contribution to this issue, is to mention the fact that in our time, and especially regarding veterans of the Vietnam war, more individuals have taken their own lives since the war than the 58,000 or so who died during the Vietnam conflict. I am manager of the Santa Barbara Vet center whiich is a counseling center for combat vets, and the most common cause I see, it seems, for these suicides is a kind of confusion and guilt based in having to be put in a position to take other lives. This, connected to the pain surrounding the fact that, retrospectively, they know that they should never have been in such a position. So, an implied sense of necessity to kill to support the prevailing system, together with the trauma of seeming to need to take other lives, either in protection of ones-self or to save another, leaves an horrendous scar on the personal mind (post truamatic stress). This "scar" appears so indellable that one removes one's self in the inability to remove the "scar". Many of these veterans were either drafted or felt, as Americans, that they were doing their duty, and enlisted. The issue of how to live doing what they did while doing their DUTY seems the issue here. This century has seen so much war. This raises many questions regarding the possible psychological effect upon so many. And if they fought and died, or perhaps worse lived, through previous wars in previous lives, might there be an inner "preasure" upon many people? A "preasure" not easily identified and therefore difficult to experience release from. Just some thoughts. any ideas? Steve L. >From: >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: "AA-B-Study" >Subject: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation >for a theosophist >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:39:06 -0800 > >Nov 27 2002 > >Dear MKR > > Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ? > >I think you are right. But thinking over our potentials is important. >We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we remain alive we can >help others if we desire to do that. > >Suicide, says theosophy is dangerous. Only the physical body is >killed. The Inner spiritual Self remains alive on the astral plane >for a period equivalent to the length of life on earth. But the >blessed peace of rest (as in sleep) becomes denied. Imagine the >terrible torture of being kept awake and aware continuously. > >Further, other kinds of entities (bhuts, pisachas, elementaries, >etc..) live actively on the astral plane and we, not knowing the rule >and laws of the astral plane, and having no experience there, are not >able to "defend" ourselves from their invasion of our privacy. That >would be a "hell" for a long number of years. That's what I find that >Theosophy teaches. > >Let me put in here a short Editor's Note from THEOSOPHIST, Nov. 1882, >by H P B > >---------------- > >EDITOR'S NOTES > >(1.) "Inquirer" is not an Occultist, hence his assertion that in some >cases suicide "is not only justifiable, but also morally desirable." > >No more than murder, is it ever justifiable, however desirable it may >sometimes appear. > >The Occultist, who looks at the origin and the ultimate end of things, >teaches that the individual--who affirms that any man, under >whatsoever circumstances, is called to put an end to his life,--is >guilty of as great an offense and of as pernicious a piece of >sophistry, as the nation that assumes a right TO KILL IN WAR thousands >of innocent people under the pretext of avenging the wrong done to >one. > >All such reasonings are the fruits of Avidya [ignorance] mistaken for >philosophy and wisdom. > >Our friend is certainly wrong in thinking that the writer of FRAGMENTS >arrived at his conclusions only because he failed to keep before his >mind's eye all the possible cases of suicide. > >The result, in one sense, is certainly invariable; and there is but >one general law or rule for all suicides. But, it is just because "the >after-states" vary ad-infinitum, that it is as erroneous to infer that >this variation consists only in the degree of punishment. > >If the result will be in every case the necessity of living out the >appointed period of sentient existence, we do not see whence >"Inquirer" has derived his notion that "the result is invariably bad." > >The result is full of dangers; but there is hope for certain suicides, >and even in many cases A REWARD if LIFE WAS SACRIFICED TO SAVE OTHER >LIVES and that there was no other alternative for it. > >Let him read para. 7, page 313, in the September THEOSOPHIST, and >reflect. Of course, the question is simply generalized by the writer. >To treat exhaustively of all and every case of suicide and their >after-states would require a shelf of volumes from the British >Museum's Library, not our FRAGMENTS. > >(2.) No man, we repeat, has a right to put an end to his existence >simply because it is useless. As well argue the necessity of inciting >to suicide all the incurable invalids and cripples who are a constant >source of misery to their families.... > >The instance chosen by "Inquirer" is not a happy one. There is a vast >difference between the man who parts with his life in sheer disgust at >constant failure to do good, out of despair of ever being useful, or >even out of dread to do injury to his fellow-men by remaining alive; >and one who gives it up voluntarily to save the lives either committed >to his charge or dear to him. One is a half insane misanthrope the >other, a hero and a martyr. One takes away his life, the other offers >it in sacrifice to philanthropy and to his duty. > >The captain who remains alone on board of a sinking ship; the man who >gives up his place in a boat that will not hold all, in favour of >younger and weaker beings; the physician, the sister of charity, and >nurse who stir not from the bed-side of patients dying of an >infectious fever; the man of science who wastes his life in brain-work >and fatigue and knows he is so wasting it and yet is offering it day >after day and night after night in order to discover some great law of >the universe, the discovery of which may bring in its results some >great boon to mankind; the mother that throws herself before the wild >beast, that attacks her children, to screen and give them the time to >fly; all these are not suicides. > >The impulse which prompts them thus to contravene the first great law >of animated nature--the first instinctive impulse of which is to >preserve life--is grand and noble. > >And, though all these will have to live in the Kama Loka their >appointed life term, they are yet admired by all, and their memory >will live honoured among the living for a still longer period. We all >wish that, upon similar occasions, we may have courage so to die. Not >so, surely in the case of the man instanced by "Inquirer." >Notwithstanding his assertion that "there is no moral cowardice >whatever involved" in such self-sacrifice--we call it decidedly "moral >cowardice" and refuse it the name of sacrifice. > >(3 and 4.) There is far more courage to live than to die in most >cases. > >If "M." feels that he is "positively mischievous," let him retire to a >jungle, a desert island; or, what is still better, to a cave or hut >near some big city; and then, while living the life of a hermit, a >life which would preclude the very possibility of doing mischief to >any one, work, in one way or the other, for the poor, the starving, >the afflicted. If he does that, no one can "become involved in the >effects of his mistaken zeal," whereas, if he has the slightest >talent, he can benefit many by simple manual labour carried on in as >complete a solitude and silence as can be commanded under the >circumstances. Anything is better even being called a crazy >philanthropist--than committing suicide, the most dastardly and >cowardly of all actions, unless the felo de se is resorted to, in a >fit of insanity. > >(5.) "Inquirer" asks whether his "M." must also be victim of that >transformation into spook and pisacha! Judging by the delineation >given of his character, by his friend, we should say that, of all >suicides, he is the most likely to become a séance-room spook. > >Guiltless "of any moral turpitude," he may well be. But, since he is >afflicted with a "restless disposition which is perpetually urging him >on to make an effort to do good"--here, on earth, there is no reason >we know of, why he should lose that unfortunate disposition >(unfortunate because of the constant failure)--in the Kama Loka. > >A "mistaken zeal" is sure to lead him on toward various mediums. >Attracted by the strong magnetic desire of sensitives and >spiritualists, "M." will probably feel "morally bound to diminish the >woes to which these sentient beings (mediums and believers) are >subject on earth," and shall once more destroy, not only himself, but >his "affinities" the mediums. > >Theosophist, November, 1882 [ H P B Editor ] > >------------------ > > >Mr. Judge in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY [Chapter XII -- Kama-Loka] writes >( p. 107) > >"...with the shells of suicides, of those poor wretches who die at the >hand of the law, of drunkards and gluttons, these black magicians >living in the astral world hold the field of physical mediumship and >are liable to invade the sphere of any medium no matter how good. The >door once open, it is open to all. This class of shell has lost higher >manas, but in the struggle not only after death but as well in life >the lower portion of manas which should have been raised up to godlike >excellence was torn away from its lord and now gives this entity >intelligence which is devoid of spirit but power to suffer as it will >when its final day shall come. >In the state of Kama Loka suicides and those who are suddenly shot out >of life by accident or murder, legal or illegal, pass a term almost >equal to the length life would have been but for the sudden >termination. These are not really dead. To bring on a normal death, a >factor not recognized by medical science must be present. That is, the >principles of the being as described in other chapters have their own >term of cohesion, at the natural end of which they separate from each >other under their own laws. This involves the great subject of the >cohesive forces of the human subject, requiring a book in itself. I >must be content therefore with the assertion that this law of cohesion >obtains among the human principles. Before that natural end the >principles are unable to separate. Obviously the normal destruction of >the cohesive force cannot be brought about by mechanical processes >except in respect to the physical body. Hence a suicide, or person >killed by accident or murdered by man or by order of human law, has >not come to the natural termination of the cohesion among the other >constituents, and is hurled into the kama loka state only partly dead. >There the remaining principles have to wait until the actual natural >life term is reached, whether it be one month or sixty years. >But the degrees of kama loka provide for the many varieties of the >last-mentioned shells. Some pass the period in great suffering, others >in a dreamy sort of sleep, each according to the moral responsibility. >But executed criminals are in general thrown out of life full of hate >and revenge, smarting under a penalty they do not admit the justice >of. They are ever rehearsing in kama loka their crime, their trial, >their execution, and their revenge. And whenever they can gain touch >with a sensitive living person, medium or not, they attempt to inject >thoughts of murder [suicide] and other crime into the brain of such >unfortunate. And that they succeed in such attempts the deeper >students of Theosophy full well know. > >====================== > >I hope this will prove useful > >Dallas > >======================= > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: mkr >Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:15 PM >To: >Subject: Re: SUICIDE -- A tricky situation for a theosophist > >Several decades ago, a young man who was depressed and unhappy with >life >consulted a well known "theosophist" and told him that he wants to >kill >himself that way his problem will be solved. The "theosophist" >pondered a >few seconds and talked to him and found out that he had some savings >and >told him to go to a small city in Mexico and live there for a year and >see >how things are working out and at the end of the year, if he is still >depressed and unhappy, it was ok to kill himself and thus the problem >will >be solved. It is over 3 decades and the man is still living in Mexico. > >Recently one of my friends was in the hospital and was not in a good >shape >and he refused all treatment and his family concurred with his >decision. I >went and saw him late in the night and took leave of him. Before I >took >leave, I mentioned that he should give a three month try and see how >things >work out. I do not know what happened that night, a week later I found >him >in a far better shape in the hospital after he decided to take >treatment. I >not sure if any of my comment had any effect on him. > >As one exposed to theosophy, when I see a suicidal person I would look >at >the circumstances and see if I can motivate the person to see the >bright >side of the situation and finally let him/her make whatever decision >he/she >feels appropriate. > >mkr > > >At 05:49 PM 11/26/02 -0800, you wrote: > > > >Now we all know that theosophy does not condone > >suicide yet theosophy does condone selfless, > >altruistic actions. The tricky situation for the > >theosophist is this: should a theosophist support > >suicide when there is a benficial outcome involved? > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Nov 27 10:33:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 18:33:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 82822 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 18:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 18:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 18:33:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 82397 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 18:34:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scribe) (167.167.187.240) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 18:34:33 -0000 X-Comments: BlackMail headers - Mail to abuse@featureprice.com to report spam. X-Authenticated-Connect: 167.167.187.240 X-Authenticated-Timestamp: 13:34:33(EST) on November 27, 2002 X-HELO-From: scribe X-Mail-From: X-Sender-IP-Address: 167.167.187.240 To: Subject: why did the chicken cross the road? Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:33:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c29643$7fb8ade0$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=5654132 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Here's something funny that I saw at work. ---- cut here ---- Why did the Chicken cross the road? PAT BUCHANAN To steal a job from a decent, hardworking American. JERRY FALWELL Because the chicken was gay! Isn't it obvious? Can't you people see the plain truth in front of your face? The chicken was going to the "other side." That's what "they" call it the "other side." Yes, my friends, that chicken is gay. And, if you eat that chicken, you will become gay too. I say we boycott all chickens until we sort out this abomination that the liberal media whitewashes with seemingly harmless phrase like "the other side." That chicken should not be free to cross the road. It's as plain and simple as that. DR. SEUSS Did the chicken cross the road? Did he cross it with a toad? Yes! The chicken crossed the road, but why it crossed, I've not been told! ERNEST HEMINGWAY To die. In the rain. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question. GRANDPA In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told us that the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough for us. ARISTOTLE It is the nature of chickens to cross the road. KARL MARX It was a historical inevitability. SADDAM HUSSEIN This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite justified in dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it. RONALD REAGAN What chicken? CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK To boldly go where no chicken has gone before. FOX MULDER You saw it cross the road with your own eyes. How many more chickens have to cross before you believe it? FREUD The fact that you are at all concerned that the chicken crossed the road reveals your underlying sexual insecurity. BILL GATES I have just released eChicken 2000, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your checkbook and Internet Explorer is an inextricable part of eChicken. EINSTEIN Did the chicken really cross the road or did the road move beneath the chicken? BILL CLINTON I did not cross the road with THAT chicken. What do you mean by chicken"? Could you define "chicken" please? GEORGE W. BUSH I don't think I should have to answer that question. LOUIS FARRAKHAN The road, you will see, represents the black man. The chicken crossed the "black man" in order to trample him and keep him down. THE BIBLE And God came down from the heavens, and He said unto the chicken, "Thou shalt cross the road." And the chicken crossed the road, And there was much rejoicing. COLONEL SANDERS I missed one? From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Nov 27 10:44:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 18:44:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 50205 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 18:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 18:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 18:44:44 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a492ce.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.206]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 413DD5EEA92 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:44:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000a01c29644$45209160$ce92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <000501c29643$7fb8ade0$f0bba7a7@scribe> Subject: Re: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:39:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 HI Eldon and all of you, Laughs Eldon...>:-) But..But.. >From the email in the below: "MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question." My Sufilight answer: Yes, allright. But, what color has this chicken ? White ! So allright as long as they don't eat the BLACK WORM from The Middle East! from M. Sufilight with peace as a priority...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eldon B Tucker" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? > Here's something funny that I saw at work. > > ---- cut here ---- > > Why did the Chicken cross the road? > > PAT BUCHANAN > > To steal a job from a decent, hardworking American. > > JERRY FALWELL > > Because the chicken was gay! Isn't it obvious? Can't you people see the > plain truth in front of your face? The chicken was going to the "other > side." That's what "they" call it the "other side." Yes, my friends, > that chicken is gay. And, if you eat that chicken, you will become gay > too. I say we boycott all chickens until we sort out this abomination > that the liberal media whitewashes with seemingly harmless phrase like > "the other side." That chicken should not be free to cross the road. > It's as plain and simple as that. > > DR. SEUSS > > Did the chicken cross the road? > Did he cross it with a toad? > Yes! The chicken crossed the road, > but why it crossed, I've not been told! > > ERNEST HEMINGWAY > > To die. In the rain. > > MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. > > I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads > without having their motives called into question. > > GRANDPA > > In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told > us that the chicken crossed the road, and that was good enough for us. > > ARISTOTLE > > It is the nature of chickens to cross the road. > > KARL MARX > > It was a historical inevitability. > > SADDAM HUSSEIN > > This was an unprovoked act of rebellion and we were quite justified in > dropping 50 tons of nerve gas on it. > > RONALD REAGAN > > What chicken? > > CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK > > To boldly go where no chicken has gone before. > > FOX MULDER > > You saw it cross the road with your own eyes. How many more chickens > have to cross before you believe it? > > FREUD > > The fact that you are at all concerned that the chicken crossed the road > reveals your underlying sexual insecurity. > > BILL GATES > > I have just released eChicken 2000, which will not only cross roads, but > will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your checkbook > and Internet Explorer is an inextricable part of eChicken. > > EINSTEIN > > Did the chicken really cross the road or did the road move beneath the > chicken? > > BILL CLINTON > > I did not cross the road with THAT chicken. What do you mean by > chicken"? Could you define "chicken" please? > > GEORGE W. BUSH > > I don't think I should have to answer that question. > > LOUIS FARRAKHAN > > The road, you will see, represents the black man. The chicken crossed > the "black man" in order to trample him and keep him down. > > THE BIBLE > > And God came down from the heavens, and He said unto the chicken, "Thou > shalt cross the road." And the chicken crossed the road, And there was > much rejoicing. > > COLONEL SANDERS > > I missed one? > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 27 11:16:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 19:16:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 26931 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 19:16:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 19:16:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 19:16:37 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18H7fp-0001g5-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:16:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE519B6.C24ECBC0@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:15:02 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? References: <000501c29643$7fb8ade0$f0bba7a7@scribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Eldon B Tucker wrote: > > Here's something funny that I saw at work. > > ---- cut here ---- > > Why did the Chicken cross the road? Lyndon Larouche: It was because of a secret conspiracy between the British and the Jews to bankrupt the American people. Emily Litella: What's this fuss about chickens flossing the road? Our roads are pretty dirty, and if chickens can be trained to help keep them clean, I think that it's a pretty good idea. Enron executive: I deny any knowledge that a chicken cross the road. As a matter of fact, I don't even know what a chicken is. And what's a road? Noam Chomsky: The U.S. government is clearly covering up the reason for the chicken crossing the road. Homer Simpson: Oooohhhh....chicken...... The Professor: If this chicken can cross the road, then we can train it to cross the ocean. We can then attach a message to its leg, and we'll be rescued! Al Gore: I was there. I helped that chicken cross the road. Michael Moore: I'm not sure, but I think it's a pretty good idea. So my crew set up chicken crossing services around the country, and we got the results on film. Here they are.... Ron Kuby: If the chicken is black, I'll take her case for free. Rudy Giuliani: Chickens are as bound by our laws as anybody else. If it turns out that the chicken broke a single regulation, you can be sure that we will arrest the chicken, and prosecute it to the full extent of the law. Bill O'Reilly: And now for the most ridiculous item of the day, people appear to be worried about the motivations of a CHICKEN crossing the road. Now, with all the problems our country is having, why all this attention about pedestrian poultry? I say that we should concentrate on the IMPORTANT issues, like killers singing on MTV! From dhyana@web.de Wed Nov 27 12:03:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 27 Nov 2002 20:03:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 54475 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 20:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Nov 2002 20:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 20:03:29 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gARK3Oa01126 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:03:24 +0100 Received: from captainak7j46l (cppp-157.blinx.de [62.96.222.157]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gARK3MC01105 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:03:23 +0100 Message-ID: <002701c29650$121a51a0$9dde603e@captainak7j46l> To: References: <000501c29643$7fb8ade0$f0bba7a7@scribe> <3DE519B6.C24ECBC0@sprynet.com> Subject: Return to Tibet Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:59:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.157 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de An insider informed me some days ago, that the brother of H.H. the Dalai Lama has signed a treaty for the Tibetean government in exile with China about the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet, but I was unable to get this information confirmed by other sources. Has anybody more details? Thanks Frank From levey_steven@hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 18:13:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 02:13:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 19075 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 02:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 02:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 02:13:36 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:09:41 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:09:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2002 06:09:41.0693 (UTC) FILETIME=[E960BED0:01C292B6] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.85] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert-If I may, Theosophy is synthesis. That is to say, if Theosophy is the Sanata Dharma, Wisdom Religion, Gupta Vidya, and especially Atma Vudya, then it is the wisdom which is universally greater than the sum of those parts which one or many may synthesize into an acceptable whole. A mayavic "whole" whose circumference only changes as much as we do in our apperception and perception. I think the problem we have is that we are so used to misconstruing the tools of perception (manas along with varying degrees of buddhi) for that which we perceive on occasion. While the fragments we occasionally correctly associate are given much more credit than we should. When, in fact the true relationship and basis for all of essential maya (Root Cosmic Substance and Divine Breath-reflections of the Absolute and the primary duality-the basis for entropic maya) as well as the laws which govern, are taught by the Mahatmas through HPB (and others) as Theosophy. The written Secret Doctrine being that which the material mind of man today can wrestle the truth out of until we further awaken. To me the "Diamond Cutter", to coin as a metaphor the great text in the Diamond Sutra, is "The Voice of The silence". It seems to be a self-validating text whose Heart Doctrine seems to allow for all in its synthesis. But, I agree that all experience must be included in a synthesis, which by nature, is all inclusive. What seems important is individual growth through application, not what is applied or even how, as long as the Injunction of "Do no harm" is followed.- Steve Levey ----- Original Message ----- From: rnewman2003 Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:47 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: >>> Theosophy on the other hand, uses the power of synthesis, whereby apparent differences are reconciled in the widest and most comprehensive views of why the Universe exists, and where each individual member of it ( and Monad) is going. I'm sorry, but from this long (and very well-written, thank you) explanation, it appears to me that Theosophy, far from reconciling differences widely and comprehensively, achieves synthesis via mere reductionism, not different in principle, though certainly very different in details, from mechanistic science. A real synthesis would include, and not dismiss as merely sectarian and traditional (though much of it certainly is), the vast storehouse of theistic experience to which I have already alluded. Dallas, the view of the universe you have described is beautiful, but so is quantum physics, and neither of these systems constitutes an all-embracing view of life. But if it works for you, I'm the last person who would try to pry you away from it. Peace, Robert Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From micforster@yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 18:32:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 02:32:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 32416 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 02:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 02:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.60) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 02:32:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20021128023251.38352.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.34.228.214] by web13402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:32:51 PST Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Dear Dallas, So in the situation that I described am I correct in believing that if that lady was a theosophist (let us say for arguments sake a fundamentalist) then she would have lived her life out naturally and with the knowledge that any pain she was going through was merely her karmic responsibility? Further, any inconvenience that she would cause to those who had to look after her was ultimately their own karmic responsibility? I think that this is a most interesting situaiton. Here on the one hand you have a person who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice so she wouldn't trouble those who are dear to her but on the other hand she is ending her life prematurely. I think another way to look at the situation would be that as a theosophist making sacrifices is important for ones personal development and hence sacrificing ones own life can be seen as undergoing a personal development, albeit quite extreme. The subsequent pain that ensues following a premature end to life, as you described in your post, is part of the sacrifice one was willing to take. A tricky situation indeed and one I hope I never find myself in. Regards, Mic Forster --- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Nov 27 2002 > > Dear MKR > > Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ? > > I think you are right. But thinking over our > potentials is important. > We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we > remain alive we can > help others if we desire to do that. > > Suicide, says theosophy is dangerous. Only the > physical body is > killed. The Inner spiritual Self remains alive on > the astral plane > for a period equivalent to the length of life on > earth. But the > blessed peace of rest (as in sleep) becomes denied. > Imagine the > terrible torture of being kept awake and aware > continuously. > > Further, other kinds of entities (bhuts, pisachas, > elementaries, > etc..) live actively on the astral plane and we, not > knowing the rule > and laws of the astral plane, and having no > experience there, are not > able to "defend" ourselves from their invasion of > our privacy. That > would be a "hell" for a long number of years. > That's what I find that > Theosophy teaches. > > Let me put in here a short Editor's Note from > THEOSOPHIST, Nov. 1882, > by H P B > > ---------------- > > EDITOR'S NOTES > > (1.) "Inquirer" is not an Occultist, hence his > assertion that in some > cases suicide "is not only justifiable, but also > morally desirable." > > No more than murder, is it ever justifiable, however > desirable it may > sometimes appear. > > The Occultist, who looks at the origin and the > ultimate end of things, > teaches that the individual--who affirms that any > man, under > whatsoever circumstances, is called to put an end to > his life,--is > guilty of as great an offense and of as pernicious a > piece of > sophistry, as the nation that assumes a right TO > KILL IN WAR thousands > of innocent people under the pretext of avenging the > wrong done to > one. > > All such reasonings are the fruits of Avidya > [ignorance] mistaken for > philosophy and wisdom. > > Our friend is certainly wrong in thinking that the > writer of FRAGMENTS > arrived at his conclusions only because he failed to > keep before his > mind's eye all the possible cases of suicide. > > The result, in one sense, is certainly invariable; > and there is but > one general law or rule for all suicides. But, it is > just because "the > after-states" vary ad-infinitum, that it is as > erroneous to infer that > this variation consists only in the degree of > punishment. > > If the result will be in every case the necessity of > living out the > appointed period of sentient existence, we do not > see whence > "Inquirer" has derived his notion that "the result > is invariably bad." > > The result is full of dangers; but there is hope for > certain suicides, > and even in many cases A REWARD if LIFE WAS > SACRIFICED TO SAVE OTHER > LIVES and that there was no other alternative for > it. > > Let him read para. 7, page 313, in the September > THEOSOPHIST, and > reflect. Of course, the question is simply > generalized by the writer. > To treat exhaustively of all and every case of > suicide and their > after-states would require a shelf of volumes from > the British > Museum's Library, not our FRAGMENTS. > > (2.) No man, we repeat, has a right to put an end to > his existence > simply because it is useless. As well argue the > necessity of inciting > to suicide all the incurable invalids and cripples > who are a constant > source of misery to their families.... > > The instance chosen by "Inquirer" is not a happy > one. There is a vast > difference between the man who parts with his life > in sheer disgust at > constant failure to do good, out of despair of ever > being useful, or > even out of dread to do injury to his fellow-men by > remaining alive; > and one who gives it up voluntarily to save the > lives either committed > to his charge or dear to him. One is a half insane > misanthrope the > other, a hero and a martyr. One takes away his life, > the other offers > it in sacrifice to philanthropy and to his duty. > > The captain who remains alone on board of a sinking > ship; the man who > gives up his place in a boat that will not hold all, > in favour of > younger and weaker beings; the physician, the sister > of charity, and > nurse who stir not from the bed-side of patients > dying of an > infectious fever; the man of science who wastes his > life in brain-work > and fatigue and knows he is so wasting it and yet is > offering it day > after day and night after night in order to discover > some great law of > the universe, the discovery of which may bring in > its results some > great boon to mankind; the mother that throws > herself before the wild > beast, that attacks her children, to screen and give > them the time to > fly; all these are not suicides. > > The impulse which prompts them thus to contravene > the first great law > of animated nature--the first instinctive impulse of > which is to > preserve life--is grand and noble. > > And, though all these will have to live in the Kama > Loka their > appointed life term, they are yet admired by all, > and their memory > will live honoured among the living for a still > longer period. We all > wish that, upon similar occasions, we may have > courage so to die. Not > so, surely in the case of the man instanced by > "Inquirer." > Notwithstanding his assertion that "there is no > moral cowardice > whatever involved" in such self-sacrifice--we call > it decidedly "moral > cowardice" and refuse it the name of sacrifice. > > (3 and 4.) There is far more courage to live than to > die in most > cases. > > If "M." feels that he is "positively mischievous," > let him retire to a > jungle, a desert island; or, what is still better, > to a cave or hut > near some big city; and then, while living the life > of a hermit, a > life which would preclude the very possibility of > doing mischief to > any one, work, in one way or the other, for the > poor, the starving, > the afflicted. If he does that, no one can "become > involved in the > effects of his mistaken zeal," whereas, if he has > the slightest > talent, he can benefit many by simple manual labour > carried on in as > complete a solitude and silence as can be commanded > under the > circumstances. Anything is better even being called > a crazy > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Nov 27 18:55:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 5342 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 02:55:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2002 02:55:49 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:55:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Answer To Daniel and Goodbye To Theos Talk Friends Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 26382 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.51 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Subject: ANSWER TO DANIEL and Good Bye to THEOS TALK (I am not leaving the list, but will only be reading it from now on.) ANSWER TO Message 9199 of 9235 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Date: Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:22 am Subject: Goswami's Parts III and IV Dear Mr. Caldwell, Thankyou for your thoughtful response. My replies are below at >>> Dear Goswami, Thank you for posting both Parts III and IV of your essay to Theos- Talk. Your essay is quite interesting and contains much food for thought. >>>Even the best of friends, in fact the very best of friends, continually try to stimulate each others' growth with thought- provoking communication. The phrase 'food for thought' is so apt, because thought is actually nourished by new, difficult and challenging ideas and stimulus. Whether one has a monistic or dualistic world-view, the Socratic DIAlogue method of teaching and learning is very valuable. You and I, and the other contributors here, have raised questions that merit investigation, and this is a good thing, not a negative thing. Even if some people have been a little impolite, I am glad to have heard from them all, and consider that there are some sincerely kind and compassionate thinkers on this forum as well, who have made the visit here even more worth while. If I had the physical strength, I would like to correspond with each of them individually. However, due to my disabilities, I can't possibly do it. So I offer my respectful obeisances to you all as I conclude my Theos Talk correspondance with the following responces. Unfortunately, you have asserted many things but have not given the evidence and documentation that would allow your readers to judge whether your generalizations are valid or not. Hopefully at some point, you will provide some detailed examples of the documentation behind some of your generalized statements. >>>Since the advent of the internet in my life, I have taken to choosing key search-word terms in my writing, so that when I am painting large historical pictures with very broad strokes, anyone questioning my grasp or presentation of the facts / details can quite easily go online and using any good search engine, usually find relevant supporting information about my assertions in a few mouse clicks. On my saragrahi.org Column "One Faith", I have given many more details relative to some of the assertions I have made here, and I invite you and any of the readers on this egroup to go there and take a look. Remember that if you search the names and terms in my writings there, you can often easily find voluminous proofs on the internet to back-up my assertions. These will not be from such spurious authorities as Eliaphas Levi, Nicholas Notovitch, Louis Jacolliot, Spencer Lewis, Edgar Cayce, Alice Bailey or other such out- right concoctors or 'akasic record' readers. I use only the best of reliable sources in my work, and do not consider mediums and channelers, who do not even have their facts of mundane history straight, to be any kind of authorities on anything. I have already suggested that serious students of theosophy (small t) read the actual source works, even if in authorized translations, of the Mahatmas' 'Hindu' and Buddhist thought. I have given a publisher (BBT) for authentic Vaishnava translations of the Vaishnava Shastras. I have even recommended an Advaitan source (Fr. Raimundo Panikkar's "...Mantra Manjari...") for the Vedic Hymns in English, despite the fact that an Advaiti interpretation of the Hymns is a denial of their plain and obvious theism and an imposition of a modern view on them. Below I will provide some texts as examples of the useful source works in English, that I have employed in my research. >>>For a very general overview of my perspective on how my own adopted religious tradition of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaishnavism relates to the ancient mysteries, I would especially like to recommend two books for theosophists. Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism by Robert Powell (Translator), Hans Urs Von Balthasar (Afterword). The Author of this amazing work was the well known esoteric Master Valentin Tomberg. This book was written in his final phase of Catholic Christian maturity, when all of his previous studies resolved into his worship of the Jesus Christ of Faith. In this text, he clearly describes the differences between the monist and non-dualist views of the Advaitans and the transcendental personalism of the 'dualists' like Madhva and the qualified non-dualists like Caitanya. He concludes that the highest most all-embracing experience of the absolute, is the experiance of the transcendental Personal God of the Bible and Bhagavad-gita, of Abraham, Issac and John, of Madhva Ramanuja and Caitanya ! I believe that he even makes a summary statement of this on page 167, however I don't have a copy of the book anymore, so can't be sure. (Try page 157 as well.) Thus this unrivaled esoteric Master / Adept, at the end of his life, in his greatest wisdom and maturity SPECIFICALLY identifies the highest experiance of the absolute with the Judeo- Catholic Mystical Tradition that my own Vaishnava lineage is historically related to. The texts that I have stated (in my essay here), that HPB / the Mahatmas borrowed from, are those of the Madhva- Caitanya Lineage of Vaishnavism that Tomberg specifically mentions in his conclusive statement about self and God realization. Somehow in his own inquiries into truth, he went beyond the historically late speculations of the Advaitis and Theravadin Buddhists, R. Steiner / the Anthroposophists and Theosophists, and studied into the ancient Judeo-Catholic and Vaishnava source-works themselves. There he found the full unabridged truth about the ancient Mysteries, and became reconciled to the God of exoteric faith, organized GSS religion, and real incarnate world history. >>>In his multi volume series on the "History of Indian Philosophy" Sir Surendranath Das Gupta states that the greatest accomplishment of Indian thought was not in the mayavic teachings on illusion and monism in the Advaita Vedanta of the Tradition of Sankaracarya, but in the Advaitic system's REALISTIC refutation, and in the assertion of a TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM by Madhvacarya and his brilliant followers like Jayatirtha and Vyasatirtha. In his volume that treats the Tradition of Madhva, he also mentions the achievement of the followers of Caitanya (in Gaudiya Vaishnavism), which is related to the Madhvite Lineage. The reason I chose to specialize in the study of Gaudiya Caitanyaite Vaishnavism 30 plus years ago, was that this is the lineage that most intensively focuses on the inner Bridal Mysticism of Radha-Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, and the Purusha-Sukta related salvific tradition of the transcendent Baladeva-Sankarashan in His multi-form as the Rig Vedic Purusha Yupa-Dhvaja (Self- Sacrificed Macro-Cosmic Deity) Vishnu (the Pure Land Buddhist Lokesvara) Who descends from age to age to save the world. My earlier studies in Old Testament related Egyptian and Greek (Afro-Helleno- Semitic) connections had led me directly to Vaishnavism and from there to the sattvic forms of Mahayana Buddhism and Shiva-Shakti worship. The Madhva and Caitanyaite Traditions are the vehicles of transmission, which have conveyed the most ancient traditions of Vedic-Vaishnava Transcendental Personalism and Bridal Mysticism to the present as living traditions. This Madhva-Gaudiya Lineage of Vaishnavism is therefore an inexhaustible treasure-trove of information and inspiration for someone such as myself (or Tomberg and Das Gupta) who wants to understand the both the oldest historical (Vedic) stratum, and most rarified heights of human thought and mystical experiance / realization. This series on the history of Indian Philosophy is old, but provides a good over-view for anyone wanting to compare the Advaitic teachings of the Shankarites, and the Dvaita (and later qualified non-dualistic) teachings of Madhva and Caitanya. >>>It should be kept in mind that the Vedic-Vaishnava sources themselves are centuries to thousands of years older than the commentaries of either Shankara or Madhva. These source works, like the Vedic Hymns, are without doubt the testimony of worshipers of the Giving (Masculine) PERSONAL DEITY PURUSHA or VISHNU and His Receiving (Feminine) PRAKRITI SAKTI / SHEKINAH. They clearly promote YOGA, which means NOT to merge two into one, but to YOKE two together, TO MOVE AS ONE as in a pair / yoke of oxen ! The word CONJUGAL tells the entire tale about what real, authentic YOGA was all about...hence BRIDAL MYSTICISM. The root JUG in CONJUGAL, like YOKE, means to join TWO AS ONE, but not to obliterate their diversity in that unity. Think YOGA-YOKE-CONJUGAL. The Advaitans ignored the clear distinction in the earlier Vedic-Vaishnava source works between the Giving (YANG / PURUSHA) Supreme Self Paramatman and the Receiving (YIN / PRAKRITI)finite self, the jivatma. Thus they missed the Upanishadic Bridal Mysticism of the TWO Love Birds on the mystical TREE of LIFE, and failed to grasp the clear reference to this in the Biblical story of Adam and Eve. In Genesis and the Upanishadic LOVE BIRDS Tradition, the Lord and the finite soul are lovers in transcendence, but when the jiva (hEVE, the "Mother of All Living") becomes distracted by the fruits on the mystical tree of life, she momentarily forgets Her Lord / Lover, and tries to enjoy the fruit independently of Him, the Original Giver. This separating forgetfulness is her (maha material) MAYA or enthrallment, and constitutes the "fall" of the jivas / EVE into the saha world of material birth, death, disease and old-age. The jivas, who are expansions through the Receiving (YIN) potency of SHAKTI / SHEKINAH are not separated without hope of recovery within the saha world, because God their Lover as PARAMATMAN 'descends' to experiance the saha world with them AS ADON-YAHU / ATUM / ATEN / PARAM ATMAN / ADAM / ATOMOS / AUTOs / ONTOS etc.. Out of his PLENUM / PURNAM of Self-effusive love, He INCARNATES to rescue them from eternal lovelessness in the multi-universes and cyclic worlds of REAL but TEMPORARY MATTER. This Bridal Mysticism drama of divine rescue is at the core of Judeo-Catholic, Greek, Egyptian, Eastern and numerous ancient spiritualities. >>>The second book that I consider 'must' reading for t/Theosophists in relationship to this subject is called >>>Sophia-Maria: A Holistic Vision of Creation Thomas Schipflinger Samuel Weiser 02/98 Paperback $22.95 ISBN 1-57863-022-3 >>>Again this book actually zeros-in on the thea-logical connections between the Judeo-Catholic SHEKINAH (CHOKMAH) MARY-SOPHIA, the Pure Land Buddhist TARA and the Vaishnava RADHA. Like Tomberg, Fr. Schipflinger has seen through the veil of history to the single SHAKTI / SHEKINAH at the core of all the Bridal Mysticism Divine Love Traditions. What my own work brings to this truth is the actual solid interdisciplinary evidence of historical connections between these traditions. At the dawn of history in the Minoan Era in the Mediterranean Sea, HERU-ASU / HELI-US / ELI-YAHU was already worshiped there on the sacred Isle of Rhodes by Africans, Europeans and Semites as KOUROS (KRISHA KESHAVA) the Divine Lover of the Soul. On Rhodes, the monotheistic Transcendent, Incarnating and Immanent Godhead of Heliopolitan civilization in Egypt, the Levant and Europe, HELIOS KOUROS, was worshiped with His Feminine Sekhet / Shekinah (SHAKTI) RHODA-ASTARIA-NYMPHIA. This is the tradition of Mary the Mystical Rose (RHODA / RADHA), Stella Maris (TARA MARINA) and the mystical Lilly or LOTUS / PADME (SRI or LAKSHMI). If one does not suffer from Euro-centric, Afro-centric or Indo-centric prejudice, or atheism, then these profoundly important connections are easy to discover studying real-world religious history. For example, let us take just one small section of your essay. Let me quote it first: "Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from other sources, that were not properly credited by her. In the case of the Sanskrit Content of the Mahatma Letters, this is again what was obviously done. Ideas and language were appropriated principally from classic Vaishnava Source-works in Sanskrit, and these were used unjustifiably out of context and often with corrupted meaning to create a world-view filled with a pathological obsession about race in a Darwinist-related new evolutionary model. The challenging and valuable ideas, which ARE THERE in the Mahatma Letters and other Theosophical Society Writings, are not sui generis from the claimed mystical Mahatmas, who were constructed as their mouth pieces. These ideas were clearly collected piece-meal from much earlier Vaishnava Sanskrit writings, with nothing new or original added. In fact, much of the authentic value of the appropriated sources has been lost in the rough handling of their ideas by the Theosophical Masters, who were actually neophytes when compared to the real living masters of those orthodox "shasters" traditions." You cover alot of material in this one quoted extract but what inquiring readers need are detailed examples that would illustrate and document what you are asserting as being true. For example, consider the very first sentence above which reads: "Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from other sources, that were not properly credited by her." What do you mean by "not properly credited by her"? >>>In the above statement I am referring to these other scholars' work and opinions. You have cited your own apologetic Theosophical sources below, which attempt to discredit the opinions of the scholars who have dealt with HPB's use of other writers' material in her work. I have specifically stated that my personal interest is in the use or misuse that HPB or the MAHATMAS made of literatures from my own Vaishnava Tradition. In the case of this use and abuse of Vedic-Vaishnava sources, there is clearly a lack of 'genealogical association' or historical honesty. Furthermore, the appropriated parts of Vaishnava thought incorporated into the Theosophical pseudo- Buddhist thought system have been purged of their theistic content and removed from their theistic context to produce an atheistic impression. Whether one interprets HPB's use of non-'Hindu' sources as 'plagiarism' or not, her / the Mahatmas' use on Hindu sources was fraught with serious problems. Arguing over the term 'plagiarism' is a dodge that does not address these problems. >>>In the last part of my "What Were They The Masters of?" paper, I have cited the readily available edition (BBT) of the Roman transliterations, comparative English translations, and Sanskrit verses of the Bhagavat Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam). In this Sanskrit Vedic-Vaishnava source work, I have given the specific Cantos and Chapters where detailed information can be found on the YUGAS, MANVANTARAS, KALPAS, DAYS AND NIGHTS OF BRAHMA, THE MANUS and other Theosophical-related teachings. Any English reader can now examine these texts comparatively for themselves. That is all I want, for people to do what Valentin Tomberg and Fr, Schipflinger had the fearless open mindedness to do....to go to the ancient Eastern sources and face the testimony of the ancients there, instead of settling for a mere interpretation of ancient Eastern sources through Western esoteric traditions. >>>Regarding the 'science' of Theosophical race 'theory', much of this idea seems to be a Darwinian-based pseudo-scientific corruption of the Vedic conception of varna (natural divisions of giftedness in humanity) and the concept of different Manus (progenitors) of the ONE HUMAN RACE in various cosmic cycles, MANVANTARAS or YUGAS. The varnas originally had NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, and recognized only that within EVERY CIVILIZED SOCIETY there ideally are cooperative natural divisions of labor, with a healthy balance-in-trade of goods and services between these labor-organs of the social body. The organizing Brahmin-heads, protective Kshatriya-arms, productive Vaisha-agriculturalists and merchants as the body, and the industrious laborers and crafts people as the supportive legs, were all essential parts of the sacred sacramental social body of Purusha. No where in the early Vedic-Vaishnava sources is this social system associated with 'aryanist' racism or even birth-caste- ism. As for the 'scientific' ideas about 'race' in Theosophy, later interpretations which attempt to re-present the original Theosophical Society teachings as devoid of racism are transparently full of sophistry and word-jugglery. However, I salute those theosophists and Theosophists who repudiate all forms of subtle and gross racism, and truly seek the equal brotherhood of all mankind. If these theosophists re-interpret and over-write the writings of HBP and the Mahatmas and later Theosophists, purging them of racism, so much the better for mankind. In the same why one must try to grasp and preserve and to perpetuate the best of everything that we as humans have inherited. This means fearlessly facing our inheritance and identifying those pathological things that should no longer be perpetuated. >>>About the pathological esoteric racial theory afflicting the world today, I would like to ask one question and supply the answer.... >>>Which is the gene for race ? The answer is that there is none. >>>There are individual genes for hair texture and color, skin color, bone structure, height, individual facial features, neuro- organization (different KINDS of giftedness and intelligence) and every other SPECIFIC human feature. Every human body is made up of these INDIVIDUAL GENES. There is NO SINGLE RACE GENE ANYWHERE. There is one Human Race with a wide variety of individual features. When isolation causes restricted gene-pooling, the result is the emergence of a 'racial' type, because of a preponderance of these individual features. Still this is only a statistical increase in certain individual FEATURES, and the individuals are still all members of the SAME ONE HUMAN RACE. Anyone with the most basic grasp of biology can understand this. In the Victorian Era, with the rise of Darwinian species evolutionary ideas, before GENETICS was well understood, it was easy for racists to think of multiple races, not grasping that we are all the reproductively compatible members of a same biological family. The early evolutionists like HBP formed their racial ideas without any understanding of genetics. Today, we know that there is no race gene, no existence of separate races AS SUCH in the human family. There are only separate genes for individual characteristics like hair, skin tone, stature etc. No matter how hard today's Theosophists might try to redeem HPB and the Mahatmas' teachings on race, these still stand as obvious relics of 19th century pseudo-scientific speculation. There was no race gene then, and there is none now. >>>I am very behind on my other writing, including a paper I need to write for the World Council of Elders of the Ancient Traditions and Cultures, which is holding their big mela in Mumbai India in 2003. I am an invited member of this Council, and have only a few more days to send in my paper for the conference. I will not be able to go due to my health, but would like for my paper to be in the conference souvenir, so I would like to get it in. Thus I bid farewell to you all, and wish you the very best in you continued quests. Below I suggest some reading which I think you will find stimulating regarding ancient East-West connections. >>>Study the Vaishnava Ayur Vedic Medical Tradition of Baladeva as Caraka, and then read Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies/Volumes I and II in One by Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein (Contributor), Gary Ferngren (Introduction), 1998, from Johns Hopkins University Press. Then consider the cult of the Medical Buddha at YAKUSHIJI in Nara, Japan. The Deity IASAS / JESUS Asclepius, Son of Helios / ELI-YAHU / HERI-ASU, NOT the Homeric hero preferred by the Edelsteins, is the Alexandrian Great Physician Serapis and the Jesus Christ of Catholic GSS faith. >>>To understand that the Supreme God of the Semites, Afro-Egyptians and Greeks (Indo-Europeans) was the Supreme Deity of Heliopolitan Monotheism, please consider the evidence from Jewish Miniatures now available in the text reviewed below. All of the evidence in this volume supports my thesis regarding the connections between the Nilo- Saharan Supreme Deity Heri-Asu (HORUS THE ELDER, HELIOS), the Semitic Deity ELI-YAHU and the Vaishnava, Shaivite and Pure Land Buddhist HARI, HARA and HARIH. >>>Best wishes to you all, >>>Pax and Prema, >>>Bhakti Ananda Goswami BELOW IS PROF. HESS'S REVIEW OF KEEL AND UEHLINGERS' IMPORTANT TEXT. ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** ************************************* Volume 3 - 2000 Keel, Othmar and Christoph Uehlinger 1998 Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Translated by Thomas H. Trapp. Philadelphia: Fortress. Hardback, xiii + 466 pp. ISBN 0-8006-2789-X. The German original of this work, when it appeared in 1992, was hailed as the most important work available on Israelite religion. Since then the publication of R. Albertz's History of Israelite Religion has provided an alternative standard for a critical reconstruction of the religious beliefs and practices of the people of the Old Testament. Meanwhile, the work of Keel and Uehlinger has lost none of its importance in translation. The vast number of drawings are reproduced as in the original. The value of this work can be found in its summary of all the extrabiblical evidence available to the authors in terms of ancient Palestinian cultic practices. The inscriptions and cult centers are included and the whole is placed in a chronological sequence according to established nomenclature, from Middle Bronze IIB (c. 1700-1550 B.C.), through the Late Bronze Age, the Iron I (1200-1000), the Iron II A (1000-925), II B (925-722), II C (722-586), and Iron III periods. In addition, there is a thorough analysis of the pictorial art that reflects religious beliefs and practices. This comes primarily from the art of seals and seal impressions, of which the collection created by Keel includes some 8500. In fact, it is in this pictorial presentation that the authors make their distinctive contribution. No other publication has catalogued and produced a century by century survey of the representational art of ancient Palestine with a full awareness of the dominant forms and motifs, and how these develop and change. Thus while the Middle Bronze Age (the patriarchal period) emphasizes images of naked goddesses and eroticism, this is replaced in the Late Bronze Age (though never entirely) by protrayals of deities and princes as warriors. This is the period of the exodus and the beginnings of the conquest. Iron I, the period of the Judges, reveals dominant masculine imagery in the art while the female deities retreat to the arena of private worship and devotion. The tenth century, the period of the United Monarchy, saw the gradual disappearance of anthropomorphic representations of deities, an Egyptian trait, and an orientation toward the north where deities were represented with their symbols. The Iron II B period (c. 925 - c. 722 B.C.) finds Judah with few pictorial representations, except symbols of royalty adapted from Egypt and some local motifs. The northern kingdom adapted and contributed to the flourishing Phoenician artistic and religious traditions. When Judah remained alone independent (Iron II C) the images in the country decreased significantly (contrast, however, pillar based figurines and horse- and-rider figurines). Elsewhere in Palestine Assyrian influenced art and religion predominated. The close correlation of these artistic and religious developments with the biblical accounts of each period are treated broadly and sympathetically by the authors but not developed in any detail. This is probably for the best because it avoids the scholarly tendency to opt for one or another critical theory and superimpose it on the biblical period is a way unacceptable to everyone else. By focussing on the evidence and avoiding extensive biblical interpretations and correlations, Keel and Uehlinger succeed in providing a useful volume for everyone interested in the subject. Of course, issues can be raised. The imagery of the naked goddesses and human couples, so popular in the Middle Bronze Age, may well have as much to do with fertility as with eroticism. The Late Bronze Age recounting of Palestinian religion must address the Mt. Ebal instalation. It is probably a sanctuary. Finally, the distinction between Asherah (Asherata) and Astarte in the Iron Age is difficult to identify and arguments that depersonify Yahweh's "asherah" and reduce it to a cult symbol are not persuasive. Nevertheless, the methodology of the overall presentation is useful. As long as one remembers that all art without text is somewhat speculative in terms of interpretation, there is much here that will help to recreate the religion, life, and culture of the Old Testament world of ancient Israel. Richard S. Hess Professor of Old Testament Denver Seminary ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** *********************************** From levey_steven@hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 19:18:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 03:18:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13828 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 03:18:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 03:18:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.19) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 03:18:23 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:18:23 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:18:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Nov 2002 03:18:23.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF3D3CC0:01C2968C] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.11.68] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert-Sorry i was so long winded, but I have heard that kind of sophistry before (If you like it fine-kind of thinking). True theosophy is synthesis by definition. And why shouldn't something be synthesis in the sense of a root understanding of existing things. For there to be anything to grasp manasically, much has to be excluded because lower manas can never grasp true universalism. Sectarianisms are, by definition, separatisms of perspective. But, of what? The word one coins to describe the universalism of which only a portion has been selected or appreciated, can be and is theosophy (t not T). At least that is the term we have. I don't see why we cannot use it unless one thinks one is showing allegiance to a Society of that name, which is not necessarily true. What do you think?-Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Levey Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:13 PM To: theos talk Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed Robert-If I may, Theosophy is synthesis. That is to say, if Theosophy is the Sanata Dharma, Wisdom Religion, Gupta Vidya, and especially Atma Vudya, then it is the wisdom which is universally greater than the sum of those parts which one or many may synthesize into an acceptable whole. A mayavic "whole" whose circumference only changes as much as we do in our apperception and perception. I think the problem we have is that we are so used to misconstruing the tools of perception (manas along with varying degrees of buddhi) for that which we perceive on occasion. While the fragments we occasionally correctly associate are given much more credit than we should. When, in fact the true relationship and basis for all of essential maya (Root Cosmic Substance and Divine Breath-reflections of the Absolute and the primary duality-the basis for entropic maya) as well as the laws which govern, are taught by the Mahatmas through HPB (and others) as Theosophy. The written Secret Doctrine being that which the material mind of man today can wrestle the truth out of until we further awaken. To me the "Diamond Cutter", to coin as a metaphor the great text in the Diamond Sutra, is "The Voice of The silence". It seems to be a self-validating text whose Heart Doctrine seems to allow for all in its synthesis. But, I agree that all experience must be included in a synthesis, which by nature, is all inclusive. What seems important is individual growth through application, not what is applied or even how, as long as the Injunction of "Do no harm" is followed.- Steve Levey ----- Original Message ----- From: rnewman2003 Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:47 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: >>> Theosophy on the other hand, uses the power of synthesis, whereby apparent differences are reconciled in the widest and most comprehensive views of why the Universe exists, and where each individual member of it ( and Monad) is going. I'm sorry, but from this long (and very well-written, thank you) explanation, it appears to me that Theosophy, far from reconciling differences widely and comprehensively, achieves synthesis via mere reductionism, not different in principle, though certainly very different in details, from mechanistic science. A real synthesis would include, and not dismiss as merely sectarian and traditional (though much of it certainly is), the vast storehouse of theistic experience to which I have already alluded. Dallas, the view of the universe you have described is beautiful, but so is quantum physics, and neither of these systems constitutes an all-embracing view of life. But if it works for you, I'm the last person who would try to pry you away from it. Peace, Robert Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From micforster@yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:23:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 03:23:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 22983 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 03:23:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 03:23:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.63) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 03:23:40 -0000 Message-ID: <20021128032340.11610.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.34.228.214] by web13405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:23:40 PST Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:23:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World becoming a producer of happiness To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000001c2963d$012fb370$f0bba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Eldon, Thank for very much for these words. Most thoughtful. Mic Forster --- Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Mic: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mic Forster [mailto:micforster@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:49 PM > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Theos-World tricky situation for a > theosophist > > > > > > I was working in some bushland in > > > Western Sydney yesterday morning and I decided to > > > knock off when the temperature hit 40 degrees > celcius. > > > Fortunately I did this because shortly after a > HUGE > > > fire broke out right where I was working. And when > I > > > say huge I mean HUGE. Just that whole situation > got me > > > thinking. > > > > It sounds like someone is looking out for you. When > something harmful > comes our way, we somehow know to avoid it if it is > not our time to pass > on. > > > > > So what is this tricky > > > situation for a theosophist? Well recently a woman > ... > > > was diagnosed with an illness ... not life > > > threatening but debilitating enough to require > > > extensive care from family and friends. This woman > > > took her life because she did not want to be a > burden > > > on those whom she loved. > > > > > > should a theosophist support > > > suicide when there is a benficial outcome > involved? > > > > I do not think that any of us is in the position to > judge when a life > has value and should continue or if a life should be > terminated. One > could ask if an embryo identified as having some > genetic disorder should > be aborted because it would come into the world > deformed. One could > decide what to do with older people in nursing > homes, those who are > severely disabled, comatose, or psychologically out > of it. Should they > be helped on, or required to live to their last > natural breath? > > > > Someone with special needs should have an equal > right to live, even if > they require more time, care, and attention than > others do. They should > not have to decide if their request for help and > support is a burden or > not. Friends, family, and others give what support > they can. Perhaps > being required to be more caring and supportive by > the needs of a close > family member is a spiritual blessing in disguise > for the person > compelled to practice compassion and be more giving. > > > > The idea that one should not exist because it would > just be a burden to > others may be a rationalization. It may not be the > real reason. True > soul searching is required to find out the true > "why's" behind one's > desires. One could simply be thinking that life is > too much trouble, > feel bitter at wanting things to be different and > finding that life > coldly says, "No, you have to life in these > circumstances, not in those > you'd more fondly desire." Feeling so, one might be > saying one wants to > do something for others, by being less of a burden, > whereas one really > feels that life is unfair, one is cheated, and > simply wants out. But > life is not trying to be unfair, the problem and > source of the pain is > in the denial. One denies one's circumstances in > life, and creates a > false sense of misery by wanting things different > than they are and > failing to accept life as it actually is. > > > > One of the lessons of old age is accepting life with > happiness. One is > happy to simply be alive. Looking good, being in top > health and physical > beauty, having wealth, being famous, and all other > sorts of things are > not important any more. One is glad to wake up each > day, step out one's > door, and walk down the sidewalk, seeing the houses, > flowers and trees, > children at play, and puffy white clouds in the sky. > The little things > of life take on special meaning. Every day is an > adventure, because the > discord between one's mental image of how things > should be and how > things actually are has ended. One is at peace and > happy with what > happens, and simply goes day to day doing what comes > naturally to one. > There may or may not be physical pain and suffering. > Even if so, there > are many things that keep making life valuable, even > if it's one last > day to squeeze one's grandchildren's hands, as one > lies in bed in one's > last few days of dying of cancer. Not all endings > are painful or sad, > but every moment has its special value that should > not be thrown away. > > > > The solution to the problem of wanting out of life > is the same solution > that we seek on the spiritual path. First, there > comes thoughts of > escape from the limitations and suffering of the > world. Then one ceases > to reject the world, but embraces it with the same > love one embraces the > spiritual side of things. Then one changes from > being a receiver of > blessings and benefits to a producer of good things. > One transforms from > a consumer of the light of others to being a light > in the world. In that > role, one finds the highest happiness. > > > > -- Eldon > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Nov 27 20:57:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 04:57:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 9111 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 04:56:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 04:56:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 04:56:59 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.91.141] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A198BD900DE; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:54:48 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021127225527.009f4b90@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:58:57 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the current Iraq situation, almost every top military veteran who has seen war first hand was against invading Iraq whereas top civilian advisers who have never seen action in war is for invading. Your statement may explain why the veterans feel the way they do. mkr At 09:58 AM 11/27/02 -0800, Steven Levey wrote: >This century has seen so much war. This raises many questions regarding the >possible psychological effect upon so many. And if they fought and died, or >perhaps worse lived, through previous wars in previous lives, might there be >an inner "preasure" upon many people? ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:54:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 06:54:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 61980 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 06:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 06:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 06:54:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.123.1a76b1cd (3972) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:54:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <123.1a76b1cd.2b1717b3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:54:43 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/23/02 11:50:53 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >Steve Stubbs wrote: >> Not really. It is a scientific fact, for example, that the color red >> does not exist in nature, but only in our consciousness. > > It is a frequency of electromagnetic waves. Not so. The frequency of an electric wave is not the "color Red" that we Experience. A measurement of frequency can have no "color" until we see it -- just as the frequency of a compressive wave traveling through air can have no "sound" until we hear it. The experience of seeing and hearing, or awareness of the qualia of a color or sound are subjective activities that cannot be objectively measured or explained scientifically. We can only infer from our own experience that anyone else experiences something the same way that we do -- or is even conscious to the same degree. The frequency of the electromagnetic or sonic wave only correlates with the experience -- like the resulting neural activities of the brain correlates with consciousness, but does not define it. LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 27 23:08:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 07:08:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 22808 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 07:08:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 07:08:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 07:08:02 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.14d.1800235c (3972) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:08:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14d.1800235c.2b171acf@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:07:59 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/24/02 12:09:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >Larry F Kolts wrote: >> No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. > > ALL blood lines are pure. > > All our physical (physically) descendents of a couple of Africans, >according to the DNA record. Therefor > Baloney. Only the reductive geneticists and anthropologists think that way -- since they base their thinking on the materialistic aspects of Darwinian evolution. The real process of evolution doesn't work like that. Check the SD or Rupert Sheldrake's book "A New Science of Life." LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 28 02:19:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 10:19:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 63682 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 10:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 10:19:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 10:19:33 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.105.20b2a5d6 (3972) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:19:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <105.20b2a5d6.2b1747af@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:19:27 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon's center/zero point in terms of duality/maya . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Mauri, I see you didn't take my advice -- NOT to answer those questions except in your own mind -- to yourself. Since the answers do not require words (which are left brain functions) but are designed to awaken your right brain visual imaginative and open the channel between right and left brain -- while giving your higher nature a chance to meet your lower nature. See them as Zen koans that require graphical thinking (and doing), rather than words, to understand. As it is, I can't understand anything you said -- which appears to be a perfect example of left brain thinking gone into a spiral spin that could eventually turn into a vicious circle that might be very hard to escape from. And, I am sorry that you didn't take my advice -- since by not doing so you fell into the trap of twisting your mind (and anyone else who reads your explanation) into continuing confusion and ultimately arriving at a complete non comprehension of the true nature of reality (which cannot be described, even speculatively, in words -- no matter how complex you make your sentences or vaguely use foreign words that have multiple meanings). Einstein said, "If you can't explain your theories to a child of seven, then they aren't worth the paper they are written on." (Even I have trouble meeting those qualifications -- although, I explained my theory of ABC to a 9 year old and she said, "That's cool." I suppose she got it. :-) If and when you do get it, you will understand why the only speculations allowed in this game (that is if you really want to know) -- is to look at each side of the questions and meditatively examine each alternative possibility by logical deduction starting with a picture in the mind. Compare both possibilities, and select which answer most closely fits your directly experienced reality -- that can be tested objectively or as a mind experiment. Then, transfer your understanding step by step up the ladder of consciousness levels until you reach your spiritual consciousness and can "see" your God nature, and can "show" him (or her or it) your answers. Only in that way you will find the correlation's between the exoteric (which can be spoken about) and the esoteric (which cannot be spoken about) -- and leastwise speculated about. Remember, nothing that one thinks which matches what one experiences can be illusory to the one doing the thinking. Whatever level consciousness one is on, that level is real to the experiencer. Therefore, the lower level of physical nature can be considered an illusion to the higher level of Brahma nature -- but not to itself. One has to live in the world, yet can still remain outside of it. As advice to anyone else who may read these letters; I suggest they follow my advice and use those questions solely as seeds for meditation. And, be very cautious in reading any written answers by others, lest you fall into the same mind twisting trap as this writer. (Although, it's okay to read these speculations with the same attitude as if you were listening to that old radio comedian, "The Professor" -- If you are old enough to remember him. :-) The best one could say about it is, it's at least entertaining. Forgive me my tongue in cheek brusqueness, Mauri, but I am trying to be helpful to everyone who reads these letters -- positively -- yet, without apearing pedantic, and being taken too seriously. No reason that the search for truth can't be fun, is there? LHM In a message dated 11/24/02 8:48:34 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Leon wrote: <turning wheel moving linearly through phenomenal space >in the same manner as is a point on the circumference -- >or not? If not, is it in non linear, circular motion >(spinning) -- or not? >> > >I seem to generally respond to those kinds of >words/concepts from a somewhat different angle than >you, Leon. So my following comments might suggest to >you that I avoided or didn't understand the issues that >you might've seen youself as having been concerned >about in that post. > >Your "center/zero point" brought to mind the dualistics >involved in reference making, in general, to begin with, >amomg other things: in other words, to me, the concept >of "center" implies the existence/creation (in terms of "a >karmic variable," if you prefer . . .) of a dualistic medium >of the kind that one can define/describe so as to posit a >"center" into it; but surely HPB's references to a "center >or zero point" had an esoteric aspect to them, as well, >that no dualistic/literal interpretation, alone, would do >justice to? > >As I see it, in dualistic terms (what other kinds are there, >one might ask, justifiably?): The concept of a center >implies or posits---as per one's >apparent/experiential/karmic/interpretive "sense of >reality"---a medium of duality as the ground in which >such references "can be made" and in which they would >become/appear "real enough." > >As I see it, a "center," by definition, within duality, (or >within dualistic, manasic reference making), can ONLY >exist within that dualistic paradigm/model, which is >another way of saying that all "centers" in dualistic terms >are mayavic, (as per the esoteric tradition), arising out of >karmic "initial assumptions," which, in turn, relate back >to, depend on, whatever karmic/dualistic engagements >are "seen" (as per a manasic/karmic effect) to "have >occurred" (as per "that kind" of mayavic, "logical >progression") as "causative" within a linearity that >(within that mayavic progression) literally has no >beginning, no "real enough cause" and, being causeless >other than in whatever interpretive/apparent >comparative/dualistic terms, is extensively dependent on >its "reality" on karma and duality; and so such centers >are, therefore, in that sense, as I see it, mayavic (as per >the esoteric tradition). > >Not that I'm promoting some kind of out-of-hand >negation of various dualistic versions, models, >Theosophics. But/"but" . . . > >And not that such short-comings (maya) seem to bother >mainstreamers much in the sense that, generally, as I see >it, most humans don't seem to ruminate much over basic >unreality, aside from various particulars? As I see it, >there's a mainstream, manasic tendency to follow the >kind of "logic" (ie, relevance making within a >"collectively agreed about worldview") that a >collective/karmic/dualistic medium/ground would seem >to give least resistance to, from whatever interpretive >perspective. > >I tend to see a basic aspect of "centers" in terms of the >kind of "logical progressiveness" adopted and karmically >engaged in by manas (that karmic/"logical" progressivity >or evolving process lending itself to manasic defining in >terms of "human senses"), so I tend to see >"centers/centering" as suggestive of manasic products of >perception supported/"influenced" by karma and duality >to the extent that they have evolved into various realities, >worlds, worldviews, sciences, and exoterics in general: ie, >it's as if there's a parallel between centric/reductionistic >(or karmic/interpretive) "manasic initial assumptions" >and the perceived/apparent (mayavic) mainstream >worldview. > >My simpler explanation for the preceding: Watch out for >those wooden nickels, eh! > ><zero-point an "illusion" -- or not? Is EIN-SOPH a >zero-point -- or not? >> > >Since those are relational (dualistic, maya-related) >questions, what's the point in asking them? >Well . . . Anyway, I just offered my versions of >answers for those kinds of questions, and for the >following from the rest of your >post, Leon: > ><"Absolute SPACE" of all emanation of the lines of force >that involve into the seven fold coenergetic fields that are >the changeable and temporary, yet cyclically repeating >playgrounds of all our states of consciousness in >"phenomenal space"? -- or not? Are these states REAL >when we experience them -- or not? Are the noumena of >these states in the zero-point, REAL (i.e., existent) -- >or not If all phenomena in the universe is subject to their >opposites, is the emptiness of the zero-point the opposite >of the fullness of its noumenal Force (or spinergy) as well >as the fullness of the Cosmos (or mass/energy) -- or not? >Does the initial light that radiates out of the absolute >zero-point travel much faster than the light (c) that >radiates from of the physical "Big Bang" zero-point >(Einstein's "singularity") -- or not? Is the Scientific, >Philosophical, and Religious knowledge (as inseparable >and interrelated, factual realities) i. e., knowing who and >what we are, where we came from, where we are going, >and how we get there, necessary to be thoroughly >examined and understood intuitively in equal measure, or >synthetically -- for theosophists or any followers of >religious dogmas to achieve enlightenment, SELF >realization, and attaining adeptship -- or not? Is the >"Scientific" knowledge, verifying the unity of all things >important as the foundation for theosophy's "Religious" >(moral-ethical) convictions -- or not? LHM (P.S.; There's >no need to answer these questions -- except to the >satisfaction of your higher Self -- who already knows. >;-)>>>>>>> >==========end of quote > >Speculatively, >Mauri > >PS Anyway, the preceding was my exoteric version. >For those who would prefer my esoteric treatment of the >same, here's my helpful suggestion: just put quotes on all >my words, and then read it again. > >PPS Well, in a sense, I was kidding about the quotes for >"my esoteric version," but, on second thought, (or first >thought . . .) in a sense I wasn't kidding, so . . . ^:-) . . . >I'm kind of alternately scratching my head and chuckling >(which is really nothing new, but/"but". . .). From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 05:21:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 13:21:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 46791 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 13:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 13:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 13:21:07 -0000 Received: from pool0066.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.66] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HObH-0005QP-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:21:03 -0800 To: Subject: RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:17:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20021128023251.38352.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 27 Dear Friends and Mic: As far as I know no one is absolutely certain about the future, and we cannot anticipate unlimited pain just for living, can we? Nor can we think sanely that killing the body will relieve us of suffering. The logic is quite unclear there. I would say that the may to cure or to reduce personal suffering is to change the subject and see if we can relieve someone else's suffering. We will cease dwelling on the "poor me" aspect and see if we can alleviate another. In this the sharing is often a cure. As to inconveniencing others, that this a constructed thought, and in a family we don't bother about this unless someone is obviously taking advantage of others, and then this has to be stopped. To continue being a victim is no better than making someone else a victim of our personal whims and desires. I don't see any balance or equity in taking advantage of another's good nature, or ignorance, or weakness of character. That indeed, is a bad thing if it is concocted and designed for one's personal benefit, and another's discomfort. What permanence is there in such a condition? Are we improved by it ? Death is not the "ultimate sacrifice." The ultimate sacrifice is living to do evil things. And we are so compromised by our environment and the general way of thinking and behaving, that we fall into the same kind of trap. One might say that the failure to live and act righteously at all times is a horrible kind of sacrifice. There is nothing SACRED in such a life at all. Look dispassionately at our world. Is it a heaven or a "hell ?" As to being "fundamentalist" or not does not matter one whit. We are all in this world together, and can't escape that, even if we never see or talk to each other in this life again. As I look at things I believe we all have similar opportunities for study and thinking about what we discover. Having come into contact with this system, perhaps it might be wise to learn something from the age-old philosophy of Theosophy, or -- or we all seem to be wandering off pretty much on our own, in paths that seem to me vague and pointless. They are largely directed by our emotional nature. Problem is we read about Theosophy and we don't like its psychology. What? Are we really responsible for all we do? Am I going to be "punished" for my bad thinking and words and deeds? So, if we already know they are BAD, why do any of them? Now that is the real problem. For whose benefit is anything BAD done ? Next, if it is unfair and unjust to others, why would it be unfair and unjust for us to directly receive the results of our doings? I would say in a world where this kind of consideration is placed first, there is something radically wrong. Theosophy says when we are perverse in any way we impress our own atoms with the perversity. Having done that they are only able to transit to us (eventually) the kind of perverse impression we originally placed in and on them. Our problem is we think the atoms are poor, small defenseless thing, instead of living brothers of a junior level of experience. We ought to be educating them in righteousness and we are not. So all suffer. We suffer until the balance is adjusted and we do that "good" which harmonizes the past. But our particular likes and dislikes do not run the world or our universe. Like it, or not, the laws of mathematics, chemistry, physics, and of biology, engineering, etc.. are all pretty well intractable. They are there. We all have studied some aspects of those and make use of them. We make use of the fact that they are steady and hence dependable. So who is, and where is there, variance and independence, and either trustworthiness or untrustworthiness? It seems to be largely in man's minds, character, and feeling nature (conjoined to the mind). There is the large confusion. Is mankind and each individual a pawn in the world? Our independence fights this fiercely. Why ? If we can answer that honestly and squarely, then a great deal is learned -- about ourselves, and about our situation vis-ŕ-vis others. No one is a "theosophist" since it is not a "religion." At best we are all "students of Theosophy" and our "ranking," if any, is only symbolic of the level of understanding we have secured of the rules and laws of NATURE. It is important to realize we are in our highest most moral natures spiritual beings. the body and its likes or dislikes are small potatoes compared to the SPIRIT within us. -- as it is everywhere, it forms the basis for "brotherhood." This is because we cannot escape out of it, nor can anyone else. So how do we make the best of this situation? Does denial make any difference ? We may lie to run away, but then who is pursuing us ? We are usually inclined to kick and resent the fact that we do live in a universe of law. And if we weren't so very "independent" we would set to work to discover those and see if we would not be benefited by using and working with them instead of resenting this fact and trying to work against them and break them if we think we can get away with it. NATURE and our UNIVERSE have been here longer than we have and they give us a ready-made situation for living. We did not build our own bodies, and yet we live in them and treat the as our possessions. well I certainly let off a head of steam here Best wishes, Dal' ======= -----Original Message----- From: Mic F Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:33 PM To: Subject: RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Dear Dallas, So in the situation that I described am I correct in believing that if that lady was a theosophist (let us say for arguments sake a fundamentalist) then she would have lived her life out naturally and with the knowledge that any pain she was going through was merely her karmic responsibility? Further, any inconvenience that she would cause to those who had to look after her was ultimately their own karmic responsibility? I think that this is a most interesting situaiton. Here on the one hand you have a person who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice so she wouldn't trouble those who are dear to her but on the other hand she is ending her life prematurely. I think another way to look at the situation would be that as a theosophist making sacrifices is important for ones personal development and hence sacrificing ones own life can be seen as undergoing a personal development, albeit quite extreme. The subsequent pain that ensues following a premature end to life, as you described in your post, is part of the sacrifice one was willing to take. A tricky situation indeed and one I hope I never find myself in. Regards, Mic Forster --- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Nov 27 2002 > > Dear MKR > > Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ? > > I think you are right. But thinking over our > potentials is important. > We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we > remain alive we can > help others if we desire to do that. > > Suicide, says theosophy is dangerous. Only the > physical body is > killed. The Inner spiritual Self remains alive on > the astral plane > for a period equivalent to the length of life on > earth. But the > blessed peace of rest (as in sleep) becomes denied. > Imagine the > terrible torture of being kept awake and aware CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 05:21:09 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 13:21:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 28757 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 13:21:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 13:21:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 13:21:08 -0000 Received: from pool0066.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.66] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HObM-0005QP-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:21:08 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:17:14 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000501c29643$7fb8ade0$f0bba7a7@scribe> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Thanks enjoyed how true. Dal ================= -----Original Message----- From: Eldon B Tucker [mailto:eldon@theosophy.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 10:34 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? Here's something funny that I saw at work. ---- cut here ---- Why did the Chicken cross the road? PAT BUCHANAN To steal a job from a decent, hardworking American. From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 05:28:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 13:28:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 88087 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 13:28:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 13:28:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 13:28:38 -0000 Received: from pool0249.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.249] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HOib-0002aD-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:28:37 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: [Blavatsky_Study] Re: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:24:42 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Friend: As I learn from Theosophy: Nature is the UNIVERSE, and it takes good care of every living being -- it is infinitely sensitive and its great urge and purpose is to encourage all to grow to manhood, where the individual can develop a sense of responsibility commensurate with the status acquired. We ought to look on life as a privilege -- a gift, something we can use to help all others. Brotherhood has to be made a living power in our thinking at all times to be present and active. Dal -----Original Message----- From: Munise Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 10:47 PM To: Subject: Re:: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Hi, I think unless the good and progress of humanity is concerned and assured, nature has to be preserved as is, it is incredible and reverse is awful. Regards Munise >From: "radarani" >Reply-To: Blavatsky_Study@yahoogroups.com >To: Blavatsky_Study@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Blavatsky_Study] Re: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky >situation for a theosophist >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:15:10 -0000 > >---Hi...All > >Ther is terrifying being in astral world. To be there for years..... > >I whent only 30 second it was enough. > >But it seem to be permit to die of starvation. What do you think...? > >Om Shanti. > >radarani > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Blavatsky_Study-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 05:49:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 13:49:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 37074 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 13:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 13:49:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 13:49:46 -0000 Received: from pool0281.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.13.26] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HP33-0000q9-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:49:45 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:45:48 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 27 Dear Steve: As i see it: As taught in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY we are dealing with the mental and emotional scars left in KAMA-MAMAS. That is the personality may overwhelm the Individuality with its self-centeredness -- unavoidable is some cases. Even if we say this as students of the great philosophy, as theosophists, to one another we are not helping the individual. We have to enter into their mental and emotional world and see if we can help to change perspectives. This is to be done slowly. An attempt to place interest outside of ones self is perhaps the beginning. Maybe that is why the "healing" pets have proved so valuable -- unstinting love. No question but Karma has affected all who were there. Some have more strength than others, and some can stand aside from their involvement and try to adjust themselves according to what they know or see or sense. A knowledge of Karma and of reincarnation are great assists here, if those can be presented and their logic encouraged. The very idea that we are all IMMORTALS takes away some of the bitterness regarding the way in which personalities are affected for this rest of this life-time. The thing to be gently overcome is the profound injustices and the great attachment to the present personality faults and successes. We have to become great psychologists using these ideas, and letting others develop them if they are interested. But we cannot force them on any one. We have to take the attitude that we are cosmopolitans and that 1500 years ago when we all lived together there were different political and religious conditions. But that may be discussed after one looks at THE EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY (JUDGE), or the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY Sometimes those help. Dal -----Original Message----- From: Steven Levey [mailto:levey_steven@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:58 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a theosophist Dallas-Thanks for such a thorough response to the issue. One further contribution to this issue, is to mention the fact that in our time, and especially regarding veterans of the Vietnam war, more individuals have taken their own lives since the war than the 58,000 or so who died during the Vietnam conflict. I am manager of the Santa Barbara Vet center whiich is a counseling center for combat vets, and the most common cause I see, it seems, for these suicides is a kind of confusion and guilt based in having to be put in a position to take other lives. This, connected to the pain surrounding the fact that, retrospectively, they know that they should never have been in such a position. So, an implied sense of necessity to kill to support the prevailing system, together with the trauma of seeming to need to take other lives, either in protection of ones-self or to save another, leaves an horrendous scar on the personal mind (post truamatic stress). This "scar" appears so indellable that one removes one's self in the inability to remove the "scar". Many of these veterans were either drafted or felt, as Americans, that they were doing their duty, and enlisted. C U T From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 28 06:35:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 14:35:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 95572 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 14:35:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 14:35:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 14:35:56 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-093-173.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.93.173] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HPlj-0004GS-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:35:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE62940.F2CACB46@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:33:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. References: <14d.1800235c.2b171acf@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/24/02 12:09:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >Larry F Kolts wrote: > >> No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. > > > > ALL blood lines are pure. > > > > All our physical (physically) descendents of a couple of Africans, > >according to the DNA record. Therefor > > > Baloney. Only the reductive geneticists and anthropologists think that way > -- since they base their thinking on the materialistic aspects of Darwinian > evolution. The real process of evolution doesn't work like that. Check the > SD or Rupert Sheldrake's book "A New Science of Life." Well, even with my typo's from super-sloppy editing, it was still clear that I was speaking strictly on a materialist basis. Of course, I have made it clear that I do NOT believe that one is necessarily a reincarnation of one's physical ancestors. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 28 06:38:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 14:38:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 85829 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 14:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 14:38:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 14:38:56 -0000 Received: from [216.154.46.5] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18HPoa-0007pS-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:38:53 -0500 Message-ID: <3DE62ADC.6DE3447C@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:40:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Universal Seekers Subject: re "difficulty" re "maya," duality/non-duality, and . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn from Gerald:<< Most Theosophists are of the opinion that maya is simply sensory illusion as taught in modern science classes. I have been trying to show that is it much more than this, but only a few seem to understand.>> Somebody: <> One might wonder if one has got it, or wonder what one "thinks" one has got, and what one "thinks" one hasn't got . . . after (or before . . .) sorting out something or other about what one's "thinking" "is" "in relation to" "maya" . . . after (or before . . .) sorting out something or other about . . whatever that's seen as "relevant" . . . My speculative explanation about "maya" (ie, complete with 3 dots at the end of it!): "Maya" might be some kind of dualistic/exoteric "explanation" ("version") that manas (or some manasians . . . ?) might be inclined to "adopt" as a result of what might seem like a fairly straightforward comparativeness: ie, those of us who feel that they have a handle on the "basic meaning" of "duality," as a unific/mainstream "basic premise," might go on to feel that "maya" is (obviously enough?) dualisticity with respect to non-dualisticity (at whatever level of dual/non-dual "h/Higher b/Being ". . .) . . . Or did I over- or underlook something . . . And should I mention the "maya that's, itself, mayavic" . . . This kind of speculation reminds me about a dream I had last night. In this dream, I was in a large cave , and saw at least two people sitting crosslegged high up on the very edges of small ledges in the cave, and a third person (if I remember right) was sitting corsslegged in what seemed (?) like a suspended, small, plain basket (somewhat like the kind that flower pots are decoratively suspended from). But what was remarkable about those three was that I had the impression that they were covered in the dust of the cave, as if they had been in those positions for many, many years, without moving a muscle, apparently. >From my somewhat distant vantage point they appeared to be protectively wrapped up in a light tan-gray cloth-like material. They all seemed as if they were shockingly dead to duality, to the extent that it was almost as if they were corpses. To me, that dream dramatically displayed (thinking back on it) a kind of "likely left-over scenario" of those who have entered any substantially less dualistic reality. PS Seeing as the replies to my posts (other than from a few respondents) have been kind of few and far between, (generally speaking, apparently . . .) I have begun to wonder if there might be something in my posts that might (among other things . . . ?) tend to make some people somewhat squirrely-like, maybe . . . What brings that to mind? Well, I used to read some Wm. Faulkner many years ago, and I always felt kind of squirrely reading him. (Of course, if I were to read some Faulkner NOW, well . . .) Another PS, here, if I may: I'm wondering why it might be that the general theme of Theosophy seems, to me, to be so full of potential for a kind of combination of "deeper meaning" and funnies . . . I think I might be beginning to know how Victor Borge might've felt when he studied "serious," classical music . . . PPS This discussion originated on Theos-1 From Nisk98114@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:14:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 15:14:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 36500 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 15:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 15:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d09.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 15:14:28 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.104.20940f40 (4312) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <104.20940f40.2b178cce@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:14:22 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Actually, the chicken never left. It's all an illusion. From llkingston2@juno.com Thu Nov 28 08:27:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 16:27:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 76784 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 16:27:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 16:27:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 16:27:03 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUMmCKd+55lCYibQiHPB6oN1Q=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HJQELLQZ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:26:37 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:16:21 -0500 Subject: Recent humor Message-ID: <20021128.111623.-771213.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-6,8-9,12-13,17-18,20-21,23-24,26-27,29-30,33-34,36-37,39-47 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed a chicken crossing the road. Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was witnessing this act. Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven Fold Constitution of Man. Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively speaking... Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the other side of the road. Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into Palistinian territory. Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and U.S. business rights Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat passage on chickens.. Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the road. Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the furture. Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. Larry ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From teos9@aol.com Thu Nov 28 10:01:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 18:01:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 42113 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 18:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 18:01:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 18:01:50 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.48.15183828 (4410) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:01:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <48.15183828.2b17b402@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:01:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Way to go Larry! You have an excellent eye for picking out the essential mannerisms of some of the personalities we share this list with. Thanks everyone. Always good to see the human and humorous side of our otherwise, serious demeanors. Best to everyone, Louis In a message dated 11/28/2002 11:28:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, llkingston2@juno.com writes: > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > a chicken crossing the road. > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > witnessing this act. > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > Fold Constitution of Man. > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > speaking... > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > other side of the road. > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > Palistinian territory. > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > U.S. business rights > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > passage on chickens.. > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > road. > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the furture. > > Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. > > Larry > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Nov 28 10:47:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 18:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 19721 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 18:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 18:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 18:47:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2002 18:47:36 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:47:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Larry, you should be ashamed of yourself! :) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021128.111623.-771213.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2281 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Larry, You should be ashamed of yourself! :) . . . for making me laugh so much this morning!! Maybe I will see Chicken Run again tonight. You really have all of us pegged. Don't do this too often though my side still hurts. Daniel --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > a chicken crossing the road. > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > witnessing this act. > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > Fold Constitution of Man. > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > speaking... > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > other side of the road. > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > Palistinian territory. > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > U.S. business rights > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > passage on chickens.. > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > road. > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the furture. > > Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. > > Larry > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 11:13:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 19:13:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 55457 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 19:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 19:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 19:13:33 -0000 Received: from pool0618.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.108] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HU6O-00051E-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:13:32 -0800 To: Cc: "AA-Dal" Subject: RE: Theos-World Recent humor Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:09:35 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021128.111623.-771213.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 27 Thanks for what ? Larry -- FANTASTIC We stand immortalized. That's great. But do I ever sound stuffy!!! My only defense / explanation: I'm trying to set what THEOSOPHY says for us to all see. impulse, eggs, chicks, and problems of decision .... Say == What would be the ultimate "goal" for a chicken? But I am still awfully stuffy. Who wants a stuffed chicken -- Cheep.-- cheeeep -- cheeepo -- on either side of the Road? Remember " There is but one road to the PATH .... ? Do we forever have to listen to the "voice" of the Chicken? I didn't know that the turtle had a voice. I always thought it was the chicken. At what point does a pullet cease from pullet-hood and become chicken? Does it have to cross the road or build a new one to cross ? What about the Monads is that a new experience ? Dal ================================== -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts [mailto:llkingston2@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 8:16 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Recent humor Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed a chicken crossing the road. Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was witnessing this act. Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks and roads. In case that isn't enough, I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven Fold Constitution of Man. Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively speaking... Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the other side of the road. Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into Palistinian territory. Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and U.S. business rights Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat passage on chickens.. Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the road. Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... ----------------------------------- Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the future. Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. Larry --------- I'll add my thanks to that too, Dal From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 28 12:28:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 20:28:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 15797 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 20:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 20:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 20:28:07 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.40.27e54ac6 (3964) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:28:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40.27e54ac6.2b17d651@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:28:01 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: So was this materialization/precipitation "a big CON" too? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/23/02 11:40:55 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> Appreciate your quoting such documentation, or giving me some >> references -- (preferably on the web, if possible). My father, a >> master chemist, occultist, stage magician, show producer, and good >> friend of Houdini, demonstrated how Moses pulled off his trick of >> turning his real staff to a snake and back to a staff -- to defeat the >> snake trick of the Egyptian Priests (which my dad told me were simple >> tricks of alchemy). However, since I suspect that there isn't any >> real evidence that Moses' trick had anything to do with paralyzing a >> real snake, as claimed by Brian/Bridgitte, I'd like to confirm this. > > > I didn't know your father was Walter Gibson. Afraid I don't know who Gibson is. But I don't suppose my dad had a monopoly on those sort of connections -- which is a very small part of describing who he was or his credibility in knowing how Moses' tricks worked. > Over the years, my magic (stage) library has steadily decreased. It's >not in any of my current volumes, and, as it reveals how tricks are >done, it is not likely to be on the web (I looked anyway, using a BUNCH >of different search terms and phrases). I had read it in at least three >history of magic books; two used the wood explanation, one gave as >alternatives the wood and the paralyzed snake theories. The last also >gave detailed explanations of Egyptian temple hydraulics, so I would not >dismiss the "minority report" out of hand. I think that carved wood (or natural wood, since there are many tree branches that grow in the necessary spiral shape) is the most likely contender for the snake-staff Moses used. I tried this trick myself, using a walking stick I made from a wild cherry tree whose branch had the correct diminishing cycle spiral shape with an arched handle at the head end. When I threw the stick down on the floor (in front of half a dozen people I came to meet in small hotel lobby) with the remark "Here's my pet king snake, oops!" -- and it slithered wiggly across the floor and under a couch -- everyone jumped up in horror and ran outside. Later, when I got them to come back with the assurance that the snake was harmless and probably hiding in the dark under the couch -- they were amazed when I reached under it and pulled out a walking stick that they all had seen me with for at least a year. This is perfect example of how the power of suggestion and misdirection, or as HPB called it, "glamour," works. It works even better if you use an incense stick made out of hashish to fog people's minds a bit. :-) Did you ever think that the Burning Bush that Moses talked to and got his inspirations from God, was a Cannabis Sativa that may have been struck by the lightning and thunder he heard while wandering in the desert? II wouldn't be surprised if that was the same oasis grove of trees where he found and carved his snake staff. Deserts, ocean rafts, and mountain tops can do that to you. I once did a weekend camp-out alone in the Mojave desert, and had one heck of a transcendental experience... And, even talked to my higher Self, or God, if you will (without any burning bushes, smoky dope, or chewy mushrooms.:-) LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 28 13:35:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 21:35:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 15822 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 21:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 21:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 21:35:16 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.16d.163b3bb8 (3964) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:35:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <16d.163b3bb8.2b17e609@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:35:05 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Daniel C.Caldwell quer and constant insultive behaviour. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Here they go again -- with the same old dishonest gutter propaganda techniques used earlier by Brian's alter ego, Brigitte ... Smearing a few individuals based on their personal foibles, who were leaders of one particular theosophical organization, and using that to condemn the whole vast worldwide group of honorable theosophists, and parallel thinking metaphysicists, ontologists, occultists and religious philosophers. Guilt by association is one of their most favored tactics. It's the same pattern of "big lie" propaganda tricks used by the Nazi's and all other anti-religious, anti racial, or anti philosophical propagandists -- who's motivations are based on personal or political prejudices and hatreds. To also use such a narrow targeted smear campaign to condemn the validity of fundamental theosophical metaphysics, along with its moral predicates, and the credibility of its teachers, is the lowest form of fallacious argumentation. What do the actions of ANY personalities have to do with the fundamental teachings that have be considered solely on their inherent philosophically and scientifically sound reasonableness? How do the personal activities or opinions of any individuals relate to the principles, beliefs or ideals of any group they might be associated with? The poisonous, polemic garbage spewing out of the mouth of this writer should be relegated to the trash bin... Since, counter arguments or defenses, just lead to greater and greater floods of similar meaningless and even more vicious propaganda. LHM In a message dated 11/24/02 12:53:44 PM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Do place the records of the courtprocedure where people of youir >above misjudgement caliber where defending the molestating behaviour >of Charles Leadbeater in court. Place the proceedings on line if you are >honest and qwe can all discuss them. > >There are other patterns fitting into your behaviour. George Arundale, >for example, defended Leadbeater child molestation charges on the >grounds that "the extraordinary purity of his own life enables him to >handle, as no other teacher, as no other individual, would dare to >handle, problems of vital moment to the growing youth."( General >Report of the Forty-seventh Anniversary and Convention of the TS 1922, > >Adyar, Madras: Theosophical Publishing House 1923,p.13.) > >Besant herself argued regarding the child molestation charges brought >against Leadbeater in court, that occult morality "cares for realities >not >conventions" and concluded, "I speak on this as an Occultist. 'He that >is >able to receive it [this teaching], let him receive it."( "A Letter to >the >Members of the Theosophical Society," November 1908, 5-6,111/46F, >TSE.) > >Theosophical Society members continually invoked his authority as an >eminent occultist in defending his actions. For example, William Glenny > >Keagey's "General Memorandum" on the subject pronounced >Leadbeater's "qualifications for expressing an authoritative opinion on > >the subject to be exceptional." (W G. Keagey, "General Memorandum on >the Recent Attack against Mr. Leadbeater," 21 November 1906, 2, 6-7, >111/ 46M, TSE.) > >There are other testimonies made especially during the various court >hearings of the child molestation charges. I just received photocopies >of >all of them, but it is a 56cm high pile, so it will take me a few days >to >work through all of them. Tomorrow I will start by placing following >article plus any reactions to it. And I hope to place a Leadbeater >courtcase article within 3 days, at which time I will move on to other > >subjects on "Esoteric and Pseudo-Science News." > >A book is being written about this rediquolous behaviour of theosophists > >in Dezember this year. > >Maybe you will learn from that to behave as litter more cultivated : > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 15:33:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Nov 2002 23:33:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 19215 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 23:33:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Nov 2002 23:33:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 23:33:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2002 23:33:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:33:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <14d.1800235c.2b171acf@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 828 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 11/24/02 12:09:18 AM, bartl@s... writes: > > >Larry F Kolts wrote: > >> No blood lines are very pure. We are all mongrels of some sort. > > > > ALL blood lines are pure. > > > > All our physical (physically) descendents of a couple of Africans, > >according to the DNA record. Therefor > > > Baloney. Only the reductive geneticists and anthropologists think that way > -- since they base their thinking on the materialistic aspects of Darwinian > evolution. The real process of evolution doesn't work like that. Check the > SD or Rupert Sheldrake's book "A New Science of Life." > > LHM ********** Leon are you Jewish or Israeli? Just wondering. I find YOUR posts insulting and 'in your face finger pointing.' It cuts both ways. Netemara From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 28 16:56:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 00:56:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 62076 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 00:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 00:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 00:56:27 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.227] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18HZSD-0006AP-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:56:26 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE6BB94.660203AB@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:57:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List , Universal Seekers Subject: re Leon's ABC's, maya, initial assumptions . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_08_13,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: * From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote: <<. . .logic of the metaphysics of Cosmogenesis when it depends on the non mayavic existence of the fundamental laws of nature,. . .>> I wonder if thinkers/writers of such statements realize that any such explanation about maya is, also, mayavic, along with whatever else they may be, in as much as such wordings are predicated on dualistic (and thereby mayavic) initial assumptions, so . . . Leon, I suspect that you realize something about the sense in which "INITIAL ASSUMPTIONS" have a mayavic aspect to them (or?), but I'm often left wondering about the "more specific" nature of your understanding re that subject. Not that you're not left wondering about "my understanding" of this and that, but, then, like I said in a recent PS (to the effect of): I prefer to keep my distance in keeping with my "speculative stance;" not that . . . Leon, I often find myself wondering, when reading your "zero/lay-point ABC posts," about the senses in which you might interpret maya, because, as I tend to see it, your posts have seemed, to me, on the whole, kind of biased (sort of "compared to my posts," as I tend to see it . . . ) on the exoteric side of things. Although, lately, I seem to have detected a somewhat broader and "more esoteric" meaning in your posts. And not that my posts are nearly as much in "the language of this age," by a long enough shot, obviously enough. But/"but" . . . Here's a quote from Gerald that I find myself sort of "agreeing with." <> Apparently that "One Substance" has been called "mulaprakriti." Speculatively, Mauri PS All this brings to mind Larry's post about the chicken that crossed the road, so: Leon: To understand how the chicken crossed the road in the scientific language of this age, see my ABC's, charts, and diagrams on my web site. Mauri (speculatively): So? That's nice that the chicken crossed that road, but, doesn't it behoove Theosophists to concern themselves with what is really going on, instead of getting all caught up exoterics? PPS "Actually" (I hope I'm not "actualing" too late . . .), I kind of like your scientizing of Theosophy, Leon, but especially whenever you make comments that I can interpret (if in my speculate way) that seem to suggest, to me, that you have some kind of "realistic handle" about maya in relation to your "language of this age." I suspect that whether your language of this age succeeds or fails might have to do with what you have to say about maya. From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 28 16:58:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 00:58:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 65564 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 00:58:44 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.11c.1b0eceed (3924) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:58:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <11c.1b0eceed.2b1815bc@cs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:58:36 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "difficulty" re "maya," duality/non-duality, and . . . To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Gerald, Victor Borge? He he he, ha ha ha, you stimulated my innate intrinsic funny bone! The Mirth of Being has the final laugh ultimately,lol. About the person in the "Flower Basket" in your dream with the two others, I am compelled to believe that in your many years of research you have run across the "Kanoun?" Speculatively. John From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 28 16:59:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 00:59:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 83807 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 00:59:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 00:59:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 00:59:49 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.47.26b40a6a (3924) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:59:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47.26b40a6a.2b1815fe@cs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:59:42 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World why did the chicken cross the road? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Nisk, It was all about "The Great Cackler"of Egypt. John From samblo@cs.com Thu Nov 28 17:02:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 01:02:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 27357 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 01:02:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 01:02:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 01:02:52 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.3b.306b3d30 (3924) for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:02:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3b.306b3d30.2b1816b6@cs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:02:46 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Larry, Cute adaption, I enjoyed and laughed. John From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 28 18:00:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 02:00:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 67912 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 02:00:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 02:00:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 02:00:41 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-25.look.ca ([216.154.45.72] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18HaSO-00067Y-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:00:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE6CAB0.D76AF10A@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:02:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Universal Seekers , Theosophy Study List Subject: correction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Correction/clarification about my: < X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 02:18:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 8720 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 02:18:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 02:18:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 02:18:04 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:18:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Secret armies Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 361 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.232.113 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Ever heard of Private Military Contractors (PMC)? There are 35 of them in the US alone, plus more in the UK and elsewhere. Some of these guys cook soup for the troops, or buy shoes for the Quartermaster Corps. Some of them fight wars. And they are employees of private companies. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/training/mercenaries.htm From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 28 18:21:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 02:21:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 23126 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 02:21:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 02:21:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 02:21:54 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-08-20.look.ca ([216.154.46.115] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Hamv-0003NS-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:21:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE6CFA9.AF03342F@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:23:37 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List , Universal Seekers Subject: one more correction . . . ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn One more correction . . . ? I wrote: <> Now I remember what I had in mind by that. In other words, what I was trying to say: When "maya" is "identified" (in whatever sense, as per the quotes) that "identifying," itself, (and not just the "maya" that's the "intended object of that identifying process") has, in as much as it's dualistic (with respect to . . .), a mayavic aspect to it. Speculatively, Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 28 21:43:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 05:43:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 49781 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 05:43:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 05:43:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 05:43:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.61.29e1ec6b (4410) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:43:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61.29e1ec6b.2b18588d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:43:41 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Lets Check The Mahatma Letters: Step 1 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Well, if you think you have to go to that extreme, maybe you aught to figure out why you're having trouble starting some discussions under your own name. Some provocative questions about theosophy, or positive ideas about it in plain English might help. No kidding. LHM In a message dated 11/25/02 12:51:48 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Hey, Thanks for responding, Leon. I knew if I preteded being brianmuehlbach >I'd have a much better chance of at least getting some discussion started around >here. > >Speculatively, >Mauri > >PS Hee hee, just kidding! From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 29 02:43:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 10:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 63750 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 10:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 10:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 10:43:42 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.147.3bac9d0 (4418) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:43:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <147.3bac9d0.2b189edb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:43:39 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's latest posting To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/27/02 8:27:30 AM, dhyana@web.de writes: >If it is right that Socialism and Communism ("We are all equal") in its >several variations was invented by the background power in the Vatican >to destroy the Protestant movement in Germany, then it is no wonder why >the ruling red caps and the pupils of the Frankfurt school in Austria (and >also in Germany) are so furious about HPB, as Theosophy was brought to >the West to stop Socialism under all its masks. >Frank Judging by your speculative (iffy) statement that what you imply about the= =20 "invention" of Socialism and Communism, etc., you believe to be true...=20 Doesn't that also imply -- since the US constitution is based on the=20 Declaration of Independence which says, "...all men are created equal"=A0--= =20 that you also believe the US is a 'masked' Socialist country, and that=20 theosophy was introduced in America by HPB to "stop" or overthrow it? Coul= d=20 we assume, then, by such subtly sly implications -- that you might be tryin= g=20 to propagandize us American theosophists into believing that HPB wanted us = to=20 become an anti government political movement? If so, I think she would com= e=20 flying out of her urn in one of her typical cold rages at the "dumbheads"=20 among us who haven't the faintest idea what "Universal Brotherhood" means.= =20 (Not to imply anything personal, of course. ;-)=20 LHM=20=20 From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 05:14:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 13:14:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 46545 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 13:14:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 13:14:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 13:14:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 13:14:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:14:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's latest posting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <147.3bac9d0.2b189edb@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 534 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.234.222 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > the US is a 'masked' Socialist country Don't think so. Socialism is just feudalism writ large, in which everyone in the society who was formerly a peasant becomes reclassified as an aristocrat, and v.v. It was originally a reaction of the remnants of feudalism to the industrial revolution, and is popular in countries with a long feudal tradition. It is the lack of a feudal tradition in the US which is responsible for the failure of socialism to find much sympathy there. From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 29 06:15:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 14:15:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 28888 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 14:15:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 14:15:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 14:15:48 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-30.look.ca ([216.154.45.77] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Hlvl-0005bM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:15:45 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE776FB.9320C927@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:17:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re long posts, eye conditions, options . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dennis wrote <> Have you tried (eg): View/Increase Font, or: Edit/Preferences/Font size. One reason the margins in my posts are much broader on the right side is that that way people can increase the font size, if they want, without scrambling the lines of type. Spec, Mauri From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Nov 29 07:42:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 15:42:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 30304 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 15:42:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 15:42:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 15:42:18 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.197.11615aae (18251) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:42:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <197.11615aae.2b18e4d6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:42:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Larry, I think you left out a couple. >Net: Is this more in your face and finger pointing at the CHICKEN? > >LM:That chicken , at another level ,could certainly be consubstantial , yet at another >level could possibly be co-ordinate with .... > > > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > a chicken crossing the road. > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > witnessing this act. > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > Fold Constitution of Man. > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > speaking... > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > other side of the road. > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > Palistinian territory. > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > U.S. business rights > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > passage on chickens.. > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > road. > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it toge From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 29 07:47:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 94056 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 15:47:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 15:47:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 15:47:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 15:47:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:47:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The After-Death States and Processes as given in THE MAHATMA LETTERS Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1694 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The following book is now online: WHEN WE DIE A Description of the After-Death States and Processes as given in THE MAHATMA LETTERS by Geoffrey Farthing Containing also two helpful tables: Table I: The Principles of Man http://www.theosophical.ca/Images/WhenWeDieA.gif Table II: After-Death States and Processes http://www.theosophical.ca/Images/WhenWeDieB.gif See detailed TABLE OF CONTENTS below: Preface http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#preface Chapter I Introductory http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#introductory Chapter II Necessary Information http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#necessary Chapter III Man's Complex Constitution http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#man Chapter IV Dying and Soon After http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#dying Chapter V The "Death Struggle and Gestation" State http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#struggle Chapter VI The Second Death and Devachan http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#second Chapter VII Rebirth and Karma http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#rebirth Chapter VIII Exceptions: Suicides and Accidents http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#exceptions Chapter IX Spiritualism http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#spiritualism Chapter X More about the Ego, and Immortality http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#more Chapter XI The Keys of Life http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#keys Appendix: Some Supplementary General Information http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#appendix Glossary http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#glossary Reprinted online by the Canadian Theosophical Association. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 29 07:58:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 15:58:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 67257 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 15:58:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 15:58:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 15:58:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 15:58:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:58:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: An Outline of Theosophy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 486 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell CHAPTER II of Geoffrey Farthing's book WHEN WE DIE is, in effect, a summary outline of the BASIC IDEAS of Theosophy. See Chapter II at: http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#necessary Some readers on this forum may find this outline of the basic ideas informative and helpful. This Chapter II by itself could be used as a basis for a group discussion of Theosophy. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc http://www.theosophical.ca/WhenWeDie.htm#necessary From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Nov 29 08:04:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 16:04:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21693 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 16:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 16:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 16:04:18 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.147.3bff822 (18251) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:04:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <147.3bff822.2b18e9fe@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:04:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 And possibly last, but certainly not least a few more, > >Adelasie:We should have more compassion for the chicken. Altruism first. > >MNO :What would MLK have said about this chicken? >from >M. Sufilight with rugrats pondering chicken parts ...>:-) > > > Larry, > I think you left out a couple. > > >Net: Is this more in your face and finger pointing at the CHICKEN? > > > >LM:That chicken , at another level ,could certainly be consubstantial , > yet at another >level could possibly be co-ordinate with .... > > > > > > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > > a chicken crossing the road. > > > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > > witnessing this act. > > > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > > Fold Constitution of Man. > > > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > > speaking... > > > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > > other side of the road. > > > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > > Palistinian territory. > > > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > > U.S. business rights > > > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > > passage on chickens.. > > > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > > road. > > > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it toge > From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Nov 29 08:46:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 16:46:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 48573 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 16:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 16:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 16:46:57 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.195.1161189a (18251) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:46:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <195.1161189a.2b18f3ff@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:46:55 EST Subject: HPB in the movies? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=21987826&sType=1 Movie article From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Nov 29 08:49:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 16:49:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 91537 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 16:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 16:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 16:49:59 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.191.110d81e5 (18251) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:49:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <191.110d81e5.2b18f4b4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:49:56 EST Subject: More on HPB "in the movies" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=21987826&sType=1 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=20093749&sType=1 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=23986295&sType=1 The above links will tell you about a planned movie on H.P.Blavatsky From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 09:55:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 17:55:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 60342 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 17:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 17:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 17:55:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 17:55:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:55:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: People in the know (gnosis that is): Jung and Yeats Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2098 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Part I: Carl Jung "H. P. Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society wrote the book on=20 secret traditions. Most esoteric movements ever since have found it=20 almost impossible to step outside of her (sometimes unconscious)=20 influence. A few groups calling themselves Gnostic have appealed to=20 an underground yet pervasive `gnosis' rather than to the ancient=20 historical Gnostic sects=85 Indeed in our century there have been several appropriations of=20 Gnostic motifs. The psychologist, C. G. Jung, continually refers to=20 the Gnostics in his writings and was often photographed `wearing his=20 Gnostic ring.' His lifelong interest in the subject was rewarded in=20 1952 when the Jung Institute in Zurich=85presented him with a recently=20 discovered Gnostic papyrus manuscript. This `Jung Codex' is now our=20 Nag Hammadi Codex I=85In 1916=85he believed his house to be filled with=20 paranormal phenomenon=85in the early 1950s Dr. Jung defended himself=20 against an attack by Martin Buber (a Jew). Under discussion was the=20 entire body of Jung's work, but Buber pointed a particularly snide=20 finger at `his little Abraxas opus.' The criticism was that Jung had=20 overstepped the boundaries of psychology into religion, and had=20 located God in the unconscious (rather than in Buber's transcendent=20 Thou). Jung took all of this seriously "Why is so much attention devoted to=20 the question of whether I am a Gnostic?" >From :"The Nag Hammadi Library" The definitive new translation of the=20 Gnostic scriptures. James M. Robinson =96 general editor Netemara ******************* Comment: Jung is undoubtedly one of the biggest voices of influence=20 in psychology even today. He DID mix psychology with religion. He was=20 influenced by Theosophy without a doubt. HE was the antithesis to=20 Freud's belief in a Godless voice. They were to part ways. Jung's=20 commentaries on spiritual works from Eastern quarters have become=20 classics in their own right. Why did Martin Buber have a problem=20 with Jung bringing God into psychology? Did he then have no problem=20 with Freud leaving God out of the mind of man? Netemara From levey_steven@hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 11:16:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 19:16:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 20706 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 19:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 19:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.81) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 19:16:21 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:16:21 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World People in the know (gnosis that is): Jung and Yeats Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:15:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2002 19:16:21.0141 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCEB7450:01C297DB] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.58] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Netemara-Thank you for your input regarding Jung, Buber and Theosophy- Plea= se continue with it, it is most provocative.-Steven Levey ----- Original Message ----- From: netemara888 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:56 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World People in the know (gnosis that is): Jung and Yeats Part I: Carl Jung "H. P. Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society wrote the book on=20=20 secret traditions. Most esoteric movements ever since have found it=20=20 almost impossible to step outside of her (sometimes unconscious)=20=20 influence. A few groups calling themselves Gnostic have appealed to=20=20 an underground yet pervasive `gnosis' rather than to the ancient=20=20 historical Gnostic sects=E2=80=A6 Indeed in our century there have been several appropriations of=20=20 Gnostic motifs. The psychologist, C. G. Jung, continually refers to=20=20 the Gnostics in his writings and was often photographed `wearing his=20=20 Gnostic ring.' His lifelong interest in the subject was rewarded in=20=20 1952 when the Jung Institute in Zurich=E2=80=A6presented him with a recentl= y=20=20 discovered Gnostic papyrus manuscript. This `Jung Codex' is now our=20=20 Nag Hammadi Codex I=E2=80=A6In 1916=E2=80=A6he believed his house to be fil= led with=20=20 paranormal phenomenon=E2=80=A6in the early 1950s Dr. Jung defended himself = =20 against an attack by Martin Buber (a Jew). Under discussion was the=20=20 entire body of Jung's work, but Buber pointed a particularly snide=20=20 finger at `his little Abraxas opus.' The criticism was that Jung had=20=20 overstepped the boundaries of psychology into religion, and had=20=20 located God in the unconscious (rather than in Buber's transcendent=20=20 Thou). Jung took all of this seriously "Why is so much attention devoted to=20=20 the question of whether I am a Gnostic?" >From :"The Nag Hammadi Library" The definitive new translation of the=20=20 Gnostic scriptures. James M. Robinson =E2=80=93 general editor Netemara ******************* Comment: Jung is undoubtedly one of the biggest voices of influence=20=20 in psychology even today. He DID mix psychology with religion. He was=20=20 influenced by Theosophy without a doubt. HE was the antithesis to=20=20 Freud's belief in a Godless voice. They were to part ways. Jung's=20=20 commentaries on spiritual works from Eastern quarters have become=20=20 classics in their own right. Why did Martin Buber have a problem=20=20 with Jung bringing God into psychology? Did he then have no problem=20=20 with Freud leaving God out of the mind of man? Netemara Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ G= et more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 11:23:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 19:23:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 65710 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 19:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 19:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 19:23:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Nov 2002 19:23:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:23:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World People in the know (gnosis that is): Jung and Yeats Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3035 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steven Levey" wrote: > Netemara-Thank you for your input regarding Jung, Buber and=20 Theosophy- Please continue with it, it is most provocative.-Steven=20 Levey >=20 *********** Thank you I will. I am also looking for some germane stuff re: Yeats.=20 He is very interesting. Netemara ************* > ----- Original Message ----- > From: netemara888 > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:56 AM > To: theos-talk@y... > Subject: Theos-World People in the know (gnosis that is): Jung and=20 Yeats >=20 >=20 >=20 > Part I: Carl Jung >=20 > "H. P. Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society wrote the book on=20=20 > secret traditions. Most esoteric movements ever since have found=20 it=20=20 > almost impossible to step outside of her (sometimes unconscious)=20=20 > influence. A few groups calling themselves Gnostic have appealed=20 to=20=20 > an underground yet pervasive `gnosis' rather than to the ancient=20=20 > historical Gnostic sects=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Indeed in our century there have been several appropriations of=20=20 > Gnostic motifs. The psychologist, C. G. Jung, continually refers=20 to=20=20 > the Gnostics in his writings and was often photographed `wearing=20 his=20=20 > Gnostic ring.' His lifelong interest in the subject was rewarded=20 in=20=20 > 1952 when the Jung Institute in Zurich=E2=80=A6presented him with a=20 recently=20=20 > discovered Gnostic papyrus manuscript. This `Jung Codex' is now=20 our=20=20 > Nag Hammadi Codex I=E2=80=A6In 1916=E2=80=A6he believed his house to be f= illed=20 with=20=20 > paranormal phenomenon=E2=80=A6in the early 1950s Dr. Jung defended=20 himself=20=20 > against an attack by Martin Buber (a Jew). Under discussion was=20 the=20=20 > entire body of Jung's work, but Buber pointed a particularly snide=20=20 > finger at `his little Abraxas opus.' The criticism was that Jung=20 had=20=20 > overstepped the boundaries of psychology into religion, and had=20=20 > located God in the unconscious (rather than in Buber's=20 transcendent=20=20 > Thou). >=20 > Jung took all of this seriously "Why is so much attention devoted=20 to=20=20 > the question of whether I am a Gnostic?" >=20 > From :"The Nag Hammadi Library" The definitive new translation of=20 the=20=20 > Gnostic scriptures. James M. Robinson =E2=80" general editor >=20 > Netemara >=20 >=20 > ******************* > Comment: Jung is undoubtedly one of the biggest voices of=20 influence=20=20 > in psychology even today. He DID mix psychology with religion. He=20 was=20=20 > influenced by Theosophy without a doubt. HE was the antithesis to=20=20 > Freud's belief in a Godless voice. They were to part ways. Jung's=20=20 > commentaries on spiritual works from Eastern quarters have become=20=20 > classics in their own right. Why did Martin Buber have a problem=20=20 > with Jung bringing God into psychology? Did he then have no=20 problem=20=20 > with Freud leaving God out of the mind of man? >=20 > Netemara >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN=20 Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From levey_steven@hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 11:26:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: levey_steven@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 19:26:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 38365 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 19:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 19:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.14.193) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 19:26:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:26:12 -0800 To: "theos talk" Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:25:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0005.2201 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2002 19:26:12.0138 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D2E70A0:01C297DD] From: "Steven Levey" X-Originating-IP: [67.227.41.58] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=65188820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was it Manifest Destiny that provoked the chicken to leave (in a covered wagon) a perfectly stable environment on his side of the road, which was the homestead for the chicken dynasty for thousands of years? Or was it that he simply died on that side of the road and was reborn on this side. And, if he was a materialist, was he aware of the transition at all In which case, he, to this day has know idea that he left. Damned frustrating, don't you think? ----- Original Message ----- From: Nisk98114@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:04 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor And possibly last, but certainly not least a few more, > >Adelasie:We should have more compassion for the chicken. Altruism first. > >MNO :What would MLK have said about this chicken? >from >M. Sufilight with rugrats pondering chicken parts ...>:-) > > > Larry, > I think you left out a couple. > > >Net: Is this more in your face and finger pointing at the CHICKEN? > > > >LM:That chicken , at another level ,could certainly be consubstantial , > yet at another >level could possibly be co-ordinate with .... > > > > > > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > > a chicken crossing the road. > > > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > > witnessing this act. > > > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > > Fold Constitution of Man. > > > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > > speaking... > > > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > > other side of the road. > > > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > > Palistinian territory. > > > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > > U.S. business rights > > > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > > passage on chickens.. > > > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > > road. > > > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it toge > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adelasie@surfari.net Fri Nov 29 12:39:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@cachecow.surfari.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 20:39:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 25451 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 20:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 20:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cachecow.surfari.net) (207.114.135.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 20:39:15 -0000 Received: from user (dsl37.surfari.net [206.190.81.37] (may be forged)) by cachecow.surfari.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gATKdGxj008111 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:39:20 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:38:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World to adelasie - changing the world Message-ID: <3DE75FD9.3531.1207874@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20021117023844.45338.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3DD68721.6398.1357285@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body From: "adelasie" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85128517 X-Yahoo-Profile: adelasie Hi Mic, Sorry to take so long to get back to you. If you think about it it > is like seven degrees of seperation: if enough of us > can influence just one person, and that person can in > turn influence another, then eventually the entire > world will be influenced. So true. It makes one pause, does it not, to think about just what kind of influence we are spreading? After all, it isn't so much what we say but what we actually do that sends the message to others. I can say I believe in altruism, but if I behave in a selfish manner, nobody is going to be fooled. And it is interesting to consider the nature of the inluence itself. Life has taught me that telling someone to do something, even for his or her own good, is seldom effictive. Everyone has to learn for themselves what works and what doesn't in life. Everyone has to go through the experience in order to gain the wisdom. > Now let's go back to our media mediums. Would you > agree that the modern media is supporting the > intrenched capitalist system? By this I mean that the > media, by and large, is generally in support of a > capitalist system that at the end of the day promotes > selfishness over altruism. Now if this media is > influencing enough people the system is > self-supportive and has a feedback whereby people > believe that a capitalist system is the best, and > only, economic system solely because it is purported > to be so. Now would you agree that if the media were > more altruistically tuned and encouraged us to help > those in need there would be more altruism in the > world? If so, then one way we could align people's > behaviours with those advocated by theosophy and other > religions would be to penetrate the media. I won't quarrel with you about the bias of the prevalent media machine. But I think the theosophist can rise above the limitations inherent in our system. If we believe in reincarnation and karma, we can accept that whatever system we live under is the system we deserve to live under. We made it and it is up to us to change it. We might move out into the public sector and attempt to work there, and we may do a lot of good. But isn't it also true that we can only be effective in so far as we have established the qualities we wish to promulgate in ourselves first? That's a tall order, but it seems we could say something like, "Revolution begins at home." Adelasie > From Nisk98114@aol.com Fri Nov 29 14:31:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Nov 2002 22:31:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 52238 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 22:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Nov 2002 22:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.105) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 22:31:54 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.180.12046074 (18251) for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:31:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <180.12046074.2b1944cf@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:31:43 EST Subject: Our common predicament... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 I won't quarrel with you about the bias of the prevalent media machine. But I think the theosophist can rise above the limitations inherent in our system. If we believe in reincarnation and karma, we can accept that whatever system we live under is the system we deserve to live under. We made it and it is up to us to change it. We might move out into the public sector and attempt to work there, and we may do a lot of good. But isn't it also true that we can only be effective in so far as we have established the qualities we wish to promulgate in ourselves first? That's a tall order, but it seems we could say something like, "Revolution begins at home." Adelasie ============================== Speaking of media... Please take a look at www.newsaic.com (particularly "The death penalty" From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 29 19:46:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 03:46:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 11484 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 03:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 03:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 03:46:47 -0000 Received: from pool1035.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.22.15] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18HyaZ-00032q-00; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:46:43 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: More on Suicide Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:42:55 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nov 29 2002 Dear friends: Here are some more statements on Suicide. -------------------- Illustrate that in this way: Here is a man who has the capacity to go on living for 30 or 40 years =95 =91 goes against him; he thinks that he can get rid of all his misfortunes by committing suicide; that is, he thinks that if he blows his head off, he will be annihilated. Now, he is =93annihilated,=94 so far as this life is concerned. He takes a shot, puts a bullet through his heart or brain, and we say, =93He is dead; that is the end of him.=94 It is, for this incarnation. But is the man annihilated? No =95 He merely lost what he had so far gained in this incarnation and what he might have gained, and in the next incarnation he has to begin all over again=97=97plus the tendency to come to the same conclusion. The suicide says, in effect, =93I would rather cease to be than go on being as I am,=94 and the very fact of suicide ought to enable us, when we dwell on it as an analogy, to see how it is that when the latter part of the Fifth Round comes, myriads upon myriads of men, unable to face the accumulated Karma of the Manvantara=97=97not merely the precipitated Karma of a single lifetime=97will say, =93I would rather be out of it; I would prefer extinction to this.=94 They have made their choice, just as any one living today makes his individual choice. Every year there are thousands upon thousands of suicides; thousands upon thousands of adult, reasoning men and women come to that point of tangled threads in one single incarnation where they say, =93I would rather be annihilated than struggle with this, than face this.=94 That is a deliberate choice. When they have to face the precipitation, not of one life time but of thousands of lifetimes, what are these people going to do? Will not many of them make the same choice again? And then that means that they will lose all consciousness of separative, individual existence. So, when the new Manvantara opens, they will begin just as is spoken of in the Third Fundamental=97=97they have to pass through every elemental form until they regain the level at which they quit in this cycle. Then only is Manas waked up in them. ---------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 20:24:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 04:24:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 86475 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 04:24:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 04:24:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 04:24:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 04:24:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 04:24:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Larry, you rock! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 89 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Fresh from hours laughing with Carolina cudns, with reflections to share tomorrow, Paul From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 01:09:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 09:09:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 86515 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 09:09:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 09:09:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 09:09:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.144] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 09:09:44 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:09:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Recent humor Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021128.111623.-771213.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2599 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "micforster" X-Originating-IP: 63.60.11.247 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Big George W. is on the prowl again, aka Kenya (an up and coming cricket side and also a convoluted explanation for the bombing: Kenya play cricket - cricket is an English imperialist/colonialist sport - England is an ally of the US - the US is an ally of Israel - Israelis [as well as Kenyans] were bombed in Kenya!!!!!) Beaut post though Larry! You're a humdigger of a bloke....That could've knocked the block off a dead dingo's donger!!! I'll have a tinnie on that one while also enjoying the Poms getting smashed at the waca....great stuff!! --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? > > HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > > Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has > proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > > Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed > a chicken crossing the road. > > Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has > countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was > witnessing this act. > > Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks > and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 on > Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven > Fold Constitution of Man. > > Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject > of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > > Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively > speaking... > > Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the > other side of the road. > > Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into > Palistinian territory. > > Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but > allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and > U.S. business rights > > Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat > passage on chickens.. > > Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the > road. > > Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... > > Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the furture. > > Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. > > Larry > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 30 02:13:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 10:13:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 51553 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 10:13:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 10:13:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 10:13:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.15a.182440a4 (1320) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:13:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15a.182440a4.2b19e94c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:13:32 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Recent humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/28/02 12:28:46 PM, llkingston2@juno.com writes: >Are we also capable of laughing at ourselves? I sure am. And, the following was very funny. Except you forgot to include me. How about this? (But, I'm sure you could come up with a better one. :-) Leon: The chicken didn't have a leg to stand on and didn't make it to the other side, since she couldn't understand that she was actually trying to cross a coadunate zero-point hyperspace field that was not consubstantial with the road she thought she was on. >HPB: The Masters report that the chicken crossed the road > >Bri: This is clearly yet another TRICK TO FOOL THE PUBLIC ! Science has >proven beyond a doubt that chickens are not capable of crossing the road. > >Daniel: I cite below three affidavits of persons known to have witnessed >a chicken crossing the road. > >Bri: Person A is a known liar. Person B is deluded and person C has >countless times been reported in another country when he supposedly was >witnessing this act. > >Dallas: Below are 73 refeerences from the SD on chickens, feathers, beaks >and roads. In case that isn't enough I also cite 10 pages on Karma, 14 >on >Reincarnation, 8 on Universal Brotherhood and another 20 on the Seven >Fold Constitution of Man. > >Compiler: The following two articles may have some bearing on the subject >of chickens crossing the road. In case the link is broken... > >Mauri: But what if the chicken were really a rooster? Speculatively >speaking... > >Frank: The chicken was a decoy in a plot to spy out real estate on the >other side of the road. > >Bart: The Israelis have every right to allow a chicken to tread into >Palistinian territory. > >Mic: Clearly U.S. President Bush once again shows his true colors but >allowing this chicken to cross the road. It's really all about oil and >U.S. business rights > >Larry: Not that anyone really cares but the Book of Mormon has a neat >passage on chickens.. > >Steve: I never said I didn't believe the chicken could actually cross the >road. > >Paul: You people can never seem to get it together. I'm out of here... > >Happy Thanksgiving to all and hopefully we can lighten up in the furture. > >Thanks Eldon for the ice breaker. > >Larry > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 30 02:56:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 10:56:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 43205 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 10:56:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 10:56:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 10:56:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.9c.2a1c43eb (1320) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:56:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c.2a1c43eb.2b19f36a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 05:56:42 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Daniel C.Caldwell quer and constant insultive behaviour. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Point taken... And mirrored back to you. You defend them your crude way, and I'll keep on defending theosophy and those students and teachers whom they have been attacking here for the past year -- my way. If anyone doesn't like it, they are free to throw such "calling a spade a spade" in the trash bin. In any event, I sincerely hope you are not one of them. In any event, maybe you should read all the correspondence related to these people (apparently, one person faking his/her way here under different names) and let us know which side you are on. LHM In a message dated 11/28/02 7:30:25 PM, netemara888@yahoo.com writes: >I find YOUR post, this one, highly insuling, and 'in your face finger >pointing' too. Take your own advice and shut the ..... up.... > >Netemara > From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 30 05:04:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 13:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 31283 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 13:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 13:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 13:04:28 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-27.look.ca ([216.154.45.74] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18I7II-0002zH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:04:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3DE8B7C0.5AEE60A0@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:06:08 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <11c.1b0eceed.2b1815bc@cs.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World re "difficulty" re "maya," duality/non-duality, and . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=7.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I did some resesearch on the net and couldn't find any hint about the meaning of "Kanoun." samblo@cs.com wrote: > Gerald, > Victor Borge? He he he, ha ha ha, you stimulated my innate intrinsic > funny bone! > The Mirth of Being has the final laugh ultimately,lol. > > About the person in the "Flower Basket" in your dream with the two > others, I > am compelled to believe that in your many years of research you have run > across the "Kanoun?" Speculatively. > John From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 06:56:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 14:56:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 32724 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 14:56:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 14:56:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 14:56:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 14:56:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Jung and Religion--Buber and Eastern mysticism--part I Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2588 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.37 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" =20 wrote: "The paradoxical Abraxas of the early poem thus prefigures "the self"=20 which Jung discussed over the next four decades as a "a complexio=20 oppositorum." Self-knowledge is achieved through the conscious=20 assimilation of the contents of the unconscious, including its=20 dark "shadow" side, towards a goal of "wholeness." Jung, therefore,=20 was deeply interested in the Gnostic insistence on evil as an active=20 principle as opposed to the incomplete Christian view of evil as the=20 privatio boni, the absence of good. "The Gnostics," he writes with=20 approval, "exhaustively discussed the problem of evil," and he quotes=20 the famous question of Basilides, "Whence comes evil? Hans Jonas presents a compelling argument, and the similarities=20 between ancient Gnosticism and modern existentialism do seem at=20 least "analogical." We should keep in mind, however, the surprising=20 condemnation of Gnosticism made by Albert Camus. Gnosticism, he=20 claims in "The Rebel" is conciliatory. It alters the course of=20 metaphysical rebellion by developing the theory of a wicked, inferior=20 god=85." "The Nag Hammadi Library" postscriptual writing by Robert Smith ************** Comment: The above are two quotes which discuss the influence which=20 gnosticism had upon Jung. Jung also wrote an entire book about "Evil"=20 I can't find the title just now in my library but I did read it and=20 it was probably a great influence on Scott Peck who wrote also on=20 evil (a theme important to the field of psychology) Peck's book "The=20 People of the Lie" is one of the best books on the subject. So I ask=20 you why is that a philosopher who is as well read as Kaufmann claims=20 him to be upset that a world-renowned psychologist (who broke away=20 from Freud) would dare (Buber's claim) discuss religion, evil and=20 gnosticism? If evil is now considered something which cannot be divorced from=20 understanding the mind of the mentally ill--why would a psychologist=20 NOT understand it? I believe it must be understood by any=20 psychologist worth his salt. This brings me to Blavatsky, who was not=20 a contemporary of these two but who greatly influenced Jung=20 obviously. That Blavatsky also wrote a great deal about evil, and=20 many times she pointed the finger directly at Judaism. I ask myself=20 would this have anything to do with Buber and his diatribe against=20 Jung? Then we have the added boon (see next post) of Buber imitating the=20 Eastern religions and gurus who were his contemporaries hmmmmmmm.... Netemara --- End forwarded message --- From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 07:05:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 15:05:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 31174 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 15:05:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 15:05:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 15:05:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 15:05:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:05:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fwd: Jung, Buber, Freud, Nietzsche and Gnosticism -- Part II Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4636 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.37 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theosophy_talks_truth@y..., "netemara888" =20 wrote: "The book (I and Thou) is steeped in Judaism=85The whole endeavor of=20 translating the Hebrew Bible represented an attempt to get back to=20 the roots of Judaism=85Buber sought a way back beyond the Shtetle and=20 Shulhan Arukh, back beyond the Talmud and the Mishnah=85He went to the=20 roots in the prophets and in Moses, and in some ways his own Judaism=20 was pre-Mosaic."=20=20 "The world exacts a price for calling teachers wise: it keeps=20 discussing the paths they recommend, but few men follow them. The=20 wise give men endless opportunities to discuss what is good." "Men's attitudes are manifold=85If there were road signs, all of them=20 might bear the same inscription: I-I." "In these five attitudes there is no You: I-I, I-It, It-It, We-We,=20 and Us-Them. There are many ways of living in world without You.=20 There are also many worlds with the two poles I-You." ************ The above quotes referring to Buber are from: "I and Thou" a=20 Prologue -- by Walter Kaufmann. The Prologue was written in 1963,=20 for a new edition and translation. I and Thou (around 1922) **************** Comment: Hmmmm, I wonder why Mr. Kaufmann and how he has become so=20 conversant in the I-I? The fact of the matter is that Buber was also=20 a contemporary of Ramana Marharshi of India's Self-Realization fame=20 whose signature writing is the Self and the I-I. Buber may not be=20 familiar with RM, but Buber lived in Jerusalem part of his life. But=20 also Germany and was a German citizen at one point because he has a=20 great command of the German language per Kaufmann. Kaufmann is also=20 one of Nietzsche's translators (10 books). And because they are both=20 so conversant with Nietzsche Buber uses a quotes (which he qualifies=20 in his discussion as "[when] Nietzsche who is still faithful to=20 actuality in his report: One accepts, one does not ask who gives",=20 from Zaranthustra, which Kaufmann footnotes.=20 I might ask why does Buber bring in Nietzsche--the writer of superman- -which left out the Jewish population, in his own works? What does=20 this validate for him?=20 While Buber has nothing to say about Freud directly Kaufmann does=20 mention the use of the word ego "Ich" in German. He states that=20 Buber's use of the word Ich is more the common usage than the way=20 that Freud uses it as part of the consciousness of man. But Buber=20 uses it to describe the sum of man's parts. In other words Buber (who=20 studied Hinduism) was using Ego in much the same way that the Masters=20 and gurus use the term ego. Kaufmann says common usage like Americans=20 use the word today. But today was NOT the early 1900's, when the word=20 was only coming into its own awareness and generally part of daily=20 vocabulary. I would have to research it, but I dare say that `ego' as=20 the Buddhist's and Hindus used the word was in common parlance.=20 It (ego) was not unknown because by then Alice Bailey was starting to=20 put out her books by the Tibetan and the works of Theosophy were=20 world renown by this time as well. But were they available to the=20 common man in the early 1900's? I don't think so. Kaufmann, to be sure does not hide the fact that Martin Buber was=20 extremely well read, he mentions this in fact. And Robert Smith=20 (author of quote earlier about Buber and Jung) says that the two them=20 were engaged in some sort of heated exchanges about Jung's use of God=20 or religion in his work. I say what about Buber's use of Eastern=20 philosophy, without giving it, its proper credit and due? How about a=20 Western philosopher (Buber) using Eastern philosophy in=20 his "original" work called "I and Thou"? I suggest that he point the=20 finger that he pointed at Jung back at himself. What's gets more interesting is the lack of agreement among Jewish=20 authors and scholars about the use of Eastern ideas and philosophy.=20 Because in a book (by a Jewish writer--I read this summer)=20 entitled "Ominous Parallels" the author was a student of Ayn Rand. He=20 (have to look up his name) argues that it was Hitler who mastered the=20 use of the Eastern philosophies to set up the entire world, beginning=20 with Germany for what was to become a mindset that allowed him to=20 rule the world for a time, and to exterminate the Jews. Ominous=20 Parallels argues that we in America are coming to that same=20 crossroads that Hitler used in Germany. Is he saying that Americans=20 are unable to choose what they will follow and think? That in itself=20 would say that the Western mind is not kept sterile by brainwashing=20 from Eastern sources but by Fascism by Western ones. Netemara --- End forwarded message --- From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Nov 30 07:19:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 15:19:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 51431 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 15:19:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 15:19:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 15:19:58 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.10f.1acca1fb (4312) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:19:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10f.1acca1fb.2b1a311a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:19:54 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World More on Suicide To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 > Nov 29 2002 >=20=20 > Dear friends: >=20=20 > Here are some more statements on Suicide. >=20=20 > -------------------- >=20=20 > Illustrate that in this way: Here is a man who has the capacity to go > on living for 30 or 40 years =E2=80=A2 =E2=80=98 goes against him; he th= inks that he > can get rid of all his misfortunes by committing suicide; that is, he > thinks that if he blows his head off, he will be annihilated. Now, he > is =E2=80=9Cannihilated,=E2=80=9D so far as this life is concerned. He t= akes a shot, > puts a bullet through his heart or brain, and we say, =E2=80=9CHe is dea= d; > that is the end of him.=E2=80=9D It is, for this incarnation. But is the= man > annihilated? No =E2=80=A2 He merely lost what he had so far gained in th= is > incarnation and what he might have gained, and in the next incarnation > he has to begin all over again=E2=80=94=E2=80=94plus the tendency to com= e to the same > conclusion. >=20=20 > The suicide says, in effect, =E2=80=9CI would rather cease to be than go= on > being as I am,=E2=80=9D and the very fact of suicide ought to enable us,= when > we dwell on it as an analogy, to see how it is that when the latter > part of the Fifth Round comes, myriads upon myriads of men, unable to > face the accumulated Karma of the Manvantara=E2=80=94=E2=80=94not merely= the > precipitated Karma of a single lifetime=E2=80=94will say, =E2=80=9CI wou= ld rather be > out of it; I would prefer extinction to this.=E2=80=9D They have made th= eir > choice, just as any one living today makes his individual choice. >=20=20 > Every year there are thousands upon thousands of suicides; thousands > upon thousands of adult, reasoning men and women come to that point of > tangled threads in one single incarnation where they say, =E2=80=9CI wou= ld > rather be annihilated than struggle with this, than face this.=E2=80=9D = That > is a deliberate choice. When they have to face the precipitation, not > of one life time but of thousands of lifetimes, what are these people > going to do? Will not many of them make the same choice again? And > then that means that they will lose all consciousness of separative, > individual existence. So, when the new Manvantara opens, they will > begin just as is spoken of in the Third Fundamental=E2=80=94=E2=80=94the= y have to pass > through every elemental form until they regain the level at which they > quit in this cycle. Then only is Manas waked up in them. >=20=20 > ---------------------------------- >=20=20 > Best wishes, >=20=20 > Dallas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was a video made of NDE's (near death experiences) made in the late=20 eighties(i think it was called Life after Death, but memory , unfortunately= =20 does not serve well on this) and in that video they covered 2 attempted=20 suicides. One thing that struck this student is the remarks of one of them= =20 that still stands out in my mind is the individual (a woman) said she saw t= he=20 whole panarama of all the events that took her to the point of taking her=20 life but that she was made seemingly to see it over and over and over again= =20 however she was also able to see cause and the sorrow and suffering=20=20 transmitted to others from her act and was unable to change anything about= =20 it. (sounds like hell to me with a touch of heaven). The light she saw ,or = so=20 she said, gave her the impetus to change , after she was "forced" back into= =20 her body, some of the original points that previously she had ignored in he= r=20 life and listening to her she even seemed brighter inwardly , but, many of = us=20 don't get that "second chance" in an incarnation and things get forgotten=20 thereby there really is this "living" a certain portion over and over again= =20 without learning the lesson.Kinda like writing "i will not something..." = =20 over and over again on a blackboard in school without the actual cause bein= g=20 attended to. I'll try to get the exact title and author of the video if=20 anyone is interested, if possible, it's in a local library From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Nov 30 07:32:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 15:32:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 2471 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 15:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 15:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 15:32:37 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.15c.17abb989 (4312) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:32:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15c.17abb989.2b1a3410@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:32:32 EST Subject: Possibly more humor... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 We theosophists use this to "practise" our altruism. ================================================ > For those of us getting along in years, here is a > little secret for building your arm and shoulder muscles. You might want to > adopt this regimen! > > Three days a week works well. Begin by standing > outside behind the house, and with a 5-LB potato sack in each hand, extend > your arms straight out to your sides and hold them there as long as you can. > > After a few weeks, move up to 10-LB potato sacks and then 50-LB potato sacks, > and finally get to where you can lift a 100 lb. potato sack in each > hand and hold your arms straight for more than a > full minute. > > Next, start putting a few potatoes in the sacks, but be careful not to overdo > it at this level.--- > > =================================== The 5 lb sack is the "seeing" of our lower nature. The 10 lb sack is the "seeing" of the real nature of the asavas (pride, lust,anger, envy and greed) The 50 lb sack is the realizing of what must be done. The putting of the potatoes in the sack is our "actual" practise. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 07:51:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 15:51:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 12682 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 15:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 15:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 15:51:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 15:51:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:51:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Daniel C.Caldwell quer and constant insultive behaviour. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9c.2a1c43eb.2b19f36a@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2359 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 209.245.237.142 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Leon: I think "netemara" is right. Since Brigitte is no longer a member of this group, I would suggest it would be well mannered of us to not attack her. As for Leadbeater, being a pathological liar and an impostor who misrepresented himself as a mahatma "on the threshold of divinity" when in fact he was a homosexual pedophile strikes me as more than just a mere foible. You ought to sit on juries for a living. You are a defense attorney's dream. I saw a Theosophical documentary one time in which they said he "clairvoyantly" saw Krishnamurti as a new world teacher or some garbage like that. What he saw was a kid he wanted to abuse. That is the real reason Krishnamurti left the Theosophical Society in disgust. Then because of the abuse Krishnamurti ended up a lifelong pervert just like Leadbeater, Jinarajadasa, Babula, and Damodar, who thought women were disgusting and told his wife to take a hike. Even the person who used the initials "K.H." is said to have been so repelled by women he refused to speak to his own sister. There were Leadbeaters everywhere. I guess I am just not politically correct, since I find all this rather distasteful. The only thing Leadbeater was on the threshold of was discovery and jail. Divine he was not. In response to your question whether the Theosophical Society should be condemned for this, the answer is YES! Now that they have been condemned, let me suggest we just put the whole matter aside. --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Point taken... And mirrored back to you. You defend them your crude way, and > I'll keep on defending theosophy and those students and teachers whom they > have been attacking here for the past year -- my way. If anyone doesn't like > it, they are free to throw such "calling a spade a spade" in the trash bin. > In any event, I sincerely hope you are not one of them. In any event, maybe > you should read all the correspondence related to these people (apparently, > one person faking his/her way here under different names) and let us know > which side you are on. > > LHM > > In a message dated 11/28/02 7:30:25 PM, netemara888@y... writes: > > >I find YOUR post, this one, highly insuling, and 'in your face finger > >pointing' too. Take your own advice and shut the ..... up.... > > > >Netemara > > From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 30 09:30:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 17:30:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 36769 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 17:30:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 17:30:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO photon.look.ca) (207.136.80.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 17:30:02 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-45.look.ca ([216.154.45.140] helo=idirect.ca) by photon.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IBRJ-0007d7-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:30:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3DE8F601.3C0BC01E@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:31:45 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re "More on Suicide" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=7.0 tests=HTML_50_70,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: * From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> Related to that, there's a book called "Life Between Life" by Joel L. Whitton, MD., Ph.D. and Joe Fisher, from Warren Books, in paperback. It's about the effects of past-life actions in the present, with plenty of detailed case histories as brought out under hypnosis. From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 14:34:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 22:34:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 63611 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 22:34:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 22:34:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.60) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 22:34:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20021130223409.21367.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.243.49] by web13402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:34:09 PST Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World More on Suicide To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <10f.1acca1fb.2b1a311a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Nisk98114 wrote: >the individual (a woman) said she saw the whole >panarama of all the events that took her to the >point of taking her life This reminds me of some readings I did a few years ago. Unfortunately my memory has also deserted me on this one but from what I can remember many people that had died but then were brought back to life described seeing this "whole panarama of all events" that took place in that individual's life. This author attempted to explain these "visions" in the light of science. He/she (can't remember) basically said that when we die the oxygen in our brains is slowly lost. As this process occurs we have these hallucinations of events that have occurred in our life. The much observed phenomenon of "going to the light" when we die is merely the extinguishing of oxygen in our brain and the "light" is that final suffocation of the brain. I distinctly remember the author saying that this was a cool evolutionary adaptation that allowed that final phase of life to be a trip on the hippie love boat. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this but it was a neat explanation, perhaps too neat? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 15:06:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 23:06:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 22712 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 23:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 23:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 23:06:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Nov 2002 23:06:35 -0000 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:06:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Dueling Website Owners Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1827 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Someone who no longer posts here but still reads wrote me indignantly about my remark that two dueling owners of websites are"manifestations of the same thing." That provoked indignation from her counterpart too. She told me not to reply to her privately, but to do so here. So... Of course there are relevant differences, like gender, nationality,and attitude toward Blavatsky and Theosophy. But the "same thing" is evident in several dimensions: 1. Refusing to communicate with me privately (in one case consistently over a long time, in the other variably depending on circumstances) while often referring to me publicly. 2. Adopting a tone of communication that for years has consisted entirely of relentless, one-sided interrogation. 3. Using "my" books solely as weapons with which to attack and discredit someone; in one case their author, in the other their subject. 4. Having vastly greater interest in that subject than I do or have had for many years. 5. Having advantages of free time, institutional support, and access to their own websites, all of which I lack, to shape discourse on the subject of those books. "My" books on the Masters were written to promote a balanced, objective, impartial approach to the study of Blavatsky and her associates. The fact that online discussion of the Masters since then has been dominated by approaches just as polarized and vituperative as previous treatments in print has been a big disappointment. But there is no point in my holding either of the dueling website owners responsible, or fretting about things not having turned out better. Because, ultimately, they are not "my" books. They're just as much yours to use as weapons as they are mine to promote reconciliation of polarized perspectives. As time and experience has shown, and as I must accept. Paul From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Nov 30 16:08:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 00:08:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 97148 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 00:08:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 00:08:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 00:08:46 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.135] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A287A86E00E4; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:06:31 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021130175502.00a7ac30@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:10:43 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Leadbeater & Krishnamurti In-Reply-To: References: <9c.2a1c43eb.2b19f36a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a wide range of opinions about Leadbeater's clairvoyance. However, Discovery of Krishnamurti and how his philosophy has affected many is factual. All one needs to do is to visit a large bookstore and see his publication on the shelf outnumber theosophical to 10 to 1. Krishnamurti, when he was seen in the Adyar Beach was scrawny and dull witted with no indication of any capability showing his future potential as a philosopher and speaker. He was a dull student when young and he never passed a single examination in his life. In his famous speech of "Truth is a Pathless Land", Krishnamurti laid out his reasons why he severed connection with all organizations including Theosophical Society. Krishnamurti stood by his statement until he died. It anyone has not seen it, I would be glad to post it here. Also Krishnamurti never married. I would be glad to see any sources which throw additional light on the issues relating to Krishnamurti. mkr At 03:51 PM 11/30/02 +0000, Steve Stubbs wrote: >are a defense attorney's dream. I saw a Theosophical documentary one >time in which they said he "clairvoyantly" saw Krishnamurti as a new >world teacher or some garbage like that. What he saw was a kid he >wanted to abuse. That is the real reason Krishnamurti left the >Theosophical Society in disgust. Then because of the abuse >Krishnamurti ended up a lifelong pervert just like Leadbeater, >Jinarajadasa, Babula, and Damodar, who thought women were disgusting >and told his wife to take a hike ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Nov 30 16:11:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 00:11:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 21368 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 00:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 00:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 00:11:52 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.90.135] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A3428DF700C2; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:09:38 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021130181250.02479110@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:13:51 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Leadbeater & Krishnamurti - corrected Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a wide range of opinions about Leadbeater's clairvoyance. However, Discovery of Krishnamurti and how his (K's) philosophy has affected many is factual. All one needs to do is to visit a large bookstore and see his (K's) publication on the shelf outnumber theosophical to 10 to 1. Krishnamurti, when he was seen in the Adyar Beach was scrawny and dull witted with no indication of any capability showing his future potential as a philosopher and speaker. He was a dull student when young and he never passed a single examination in his life. In his famous speech of "Truth is a Pathless Land", Krishnamurti laid out his reasons why he severed connection with all organizations including Theosophical Society. Krishnamurti stood by his statement until he died. It anyone has not seen it, I would be glad to post it here. Also Krishnamurti never married. I would be glad to see any sources which throw additional light on the issues relating to Krishnamurti. mkr At 03:51 PM 11/30/02 +0000, Steve Stubbs wrote: >are a defense attorney's dream. I saw a Theosophical documentary one >time in which they said he "clairvoyantly" saw Krishnamurti as a new >world teacher or some garbage like that. What he saw was a kid he >wanted to abuse. That is the real reason Krishnamurti left the >Theosophical Society in disgust. Then because of the abuse >Krishnamurti ended up a lifelong pervert just like Leadbeater, >Jinarajadasa, Babula, and Damodar, who thought women were disgusting >and told his wife to take a hike ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sat Nov 30 16:55:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 00:55:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 33174 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 00:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 00:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 00:55:43 -0000 Received: from 1cust224.tnt15.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.219.24.224] helo=u7k5a4) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IIOd-0004Lo-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:55:43 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c298d5$0117fb00$e018db43@u7k5a4> To: References: <3DE776FB.9320C927@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re long posts, eye conditions, options . . . Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:36:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Well, I have a 19 inch screen, and the type on the screen is large enough. But I do find books much easier to read for an extended length of time than the screen. And most of the books have smaller type than what I see on the screen. But I do have trouble with HPB's quotations in ISIS, & SECRET DOCTRINE, where the letters are about 1/2 the size of a grain of rice. But with most books, I find it easier to read, possibly because of my posture, or having to sit upright, and be careful whether I am the right distance to the screen for the letters to be in focus. There are probably many factors, but I find books, and most magazines easier to read. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 6:17 AM Subject: Theos-World re long posts, eye conditions, options . . . > Dennis wrote < screen.>> > > Have you tried (eg): View/Increase Font, or: > Edit/Preferences/Font size. One reason the margins in > my posts are much broader on the right side is that that > way people can increase the font size, if they want, > without scrambling the lines of type. > > Spec, > Mauri From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 30 18:13:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 02:13:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 15746 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 02:13:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 02:13:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 02:13:32 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.141.3dba7be (3964) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:13:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <141.3dba7be.2b1aca47@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:13:27 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/28/02 7:35:02 PM, netemara888@yahoo.com writes: (snip -- my response to Bart re: evolution) > >Leon are you Jewish or Israeli? Just wondering. I find YOUR posts >insulting and 'in your face finger pointing.' It cuts both ways. > >Netemara insulting to whom? As for my nationality or religious preferences, that's none of your business. Besides, what connection does that have with my response to Bart about Darwin's evolutionary theories? Have you read Bart's later response to my post? You bet it cuts both ways. So, I might now guess, after your previous crude comment to a letter I wrote on the subject of anti theosophical propagandists -- that you are one of "them." Your similar prejudicial innuendoes and propaganda techniques stick out like a sore thumb. I and, I suppose, everyone else here who read this gratuitous response of yours, now takes it that you believe all "Jews" and "Israeli's" are "insulting finger pointers." (I won't say what they might think of YOUR being insulted by my so called "finger pointing" at the other propagandist theosophy haters.) If you haven't got anything more pertinent or theosophically enlightening to say about the letters you respond to, I suggest you stay out of our faces. If you are insulted by my "in your face finger pointing" directness, and the shoe fits -- wear it -- or sue me.:-) LHM From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Nov 30 18:17:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 02:17:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 75293 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 02:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 02:17:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 02:17:38 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8fDX4FEMxLUMOPGQ0hym9z2XSj3X+GMWoA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HJWL7YV8; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:17:31 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:06:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Leadbeater & Krishnamurti Message-ID: <20021130.210645.-820079.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-18,21-43 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 No, K never married. But there is fairly solid proof that he had a mistress. This was first brought to light by Radha Sloss in her book LIVES IN THE SHADOW WITH J KHRISHNAMURTI. That mistress was Rosalind Rajagopal, the wife of K's business managerand Radha's own mother. It was Raj who basically told his wife that after the birth of their daughter he would no longer have sexual relations with her. K's defender Mary Lutyens, while covering this affair up for many years in her earlier biographies of K, finally admits to the truth in her book KHRISNAMURTI AND THE RAJAGOPALS. Larry On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:10:43 -0600 ramadoss@gbronline.com writes: > Also Krishnamurti never married. > mkr > > > At 03:51 PM 11/30/02 +0000, Steve Stubbs wrote: > Then because of the abuse Krishnamurti ended up a lifelong pervert just like Leadbeater,Jinarajadasa, Babula, and Damodar, who thought women were > disgustingand told his wife to take a hike. > > > ---------- > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 18:54:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 02:54:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 14738 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 02:54:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 02:54:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 02:54:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2002 02:54:14 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 02:54:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: British Israelism and other "6e Race=US" type beliefs. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <141.3dba7be.2b1aca47@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2047 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 You need not answer my question. But you have no problem castigating Daniel Caldwell do you? He has helped keep Theosophy alive by his research and work on The Blavatsky Archives. And you seem to be here to tear him and his work down. I for one do not appreciate your efforts along those lines. You need not prove to me you're vicious. Netemara As for not being in your face, don't read my posts. Besides you are not the owner of this forum and have no business talking about who should be excluded from it. ***************** --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/28/02 7:35:02 PM, netemara888@y... writes: > > (snip -- my response to Bart re: evolution) > > > >Leon are you Jewish or Israeli? Just wondering. I find YOUR posts > >insulting and 'in your face finger pointing.' It cuts both ways. > > > >Netemara > > insulting to whom? > > As for my nationality or religious preferences, that's none of your business. > Besides, what connection does that have with my response to Bart about > Darwin's evolutionary theories? Have you read Bart's later response to my > post? > > You bet it cuts both ways. So, I might now guess, after your previous crude > comment to a letter I wrote on the subject of anti theosophical propagandists > -- that you are one of "them." Your similar prejudicial innuendoes and > propaganda techniques stick out like a sore thumb. I and, I suppose, > everyone else here who read this gratuitous response of yours, now takes it > that you believe all "Jews" and "Israeli's" are "insulting finger pointers." > (I won't say what they might think of YOUR being insulted by my so called > "finger pointing" at the other propagandist theosophy haters.) > > If you haven't got anything more pertinent or theosophically enlightening to > say about the letters you respond to, I suggest you stay out of our faces. > > If you are insulted by my "in your face finger pointing" directness, and the > shoe fits -- wear it -- or sue me.:-) > > LHM From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 18:55:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 02:55:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 87662 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 02:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 02:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 02:55:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.184] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2002 02:55:05 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 02:55:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re:Leadbeater & Krishnamurti Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20021130.210645.-820079.0.llkingston2@juno.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3330 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 64.157.126.173 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Larry and ramadoss: You both raise some interesting points. Unless K was what psychologists call a "superkid" it is impossible that he would not have been damaged by Leadbeater, but your comments make it clear he was a more complex character than I had thought. There is no question that he was an outstanding group leader, which is 90% of being a guru. It is apparent to me that he was trained in these skills by Besant et al when she was exploiting him for that "order" of hers. So that part is quite easy to explain. When he was a child Marjoe Gortner was exploited by his parents, who were tent preachers, and he applied those skills to his own tent preacher business with great effect when he got grown. There is an award wining documentary about him called MARJOE which can sometimes be found on eBay. As for the other 10% of being a guru, it has always seemed t me that as a philosopher K was a pretty good tent preacher. Wxcellent platform style has covered up intellectual flimsiness in more than one "guru." So that he would start out as a dull kid and end up a spellbinder is not that hard to explain. Having been closely associated with Leadbeater, K would have known better than anyone else that Leadbeater was a liar, a pervert, a child molester amd an impostor. It is impossible that he could have been unaware of those aspects or unaffected by them. So if he tactfully failed to mention that in his "I'm Outta Here" statement that CPULD mean they were not factors in his decision, and again it could mean he just thought it the better part of decorum not to bring it up. So his statement is important evidence, but unfortunately not conclusive. --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > No, K never married. But there is fairly solid proof that he had a > mistress. This was first brought to light by Radha Sloss in her book > LIVES IN THE SHADOW WITH J KHRISHNAMURTI. That mistress was Rosalind > Rajagopal, the wife of K's business managerand Radha's own mother. It was > Raj who basically told his wife that after the birth of their daughter he > would no longer have sexual relations with her. K's defender Mary > Lutyens, while covering this affair up for many years in her earlier > biographies of K, finally admits to the truth in her book KHRISNAMURTI > AND THE RAJAGOPALS. > > Larry > > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:10:43 -0600 ramadoss@g... writes: > > > Also Krishnamurti never married. > > mkr > > > > > > At 03:51 PM 11/30/02 +0000, Steve Stubbs wrote: > > Then because of the abuse Krishnamurti ended up a lifelong pervert > just like Leadbeater,Jinarajadasa, Babula, and Damodar, who thought women > were > > disgustingand told his wife to take a hike. > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 11/20/02 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 30 19:41:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 03:41:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 37406 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 03:41:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 03:41:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 03:41:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.1c9.25ca73a (4539) for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:41:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c9.25ca73a.2b1adee0@cs.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:41:20 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Jung, Buber, Freud, Nietzsche and Gnosticism -- Part II To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Netemara, Forgive me for using this e-mail to reply to your immediate previous e-mail which due to my ISP disconnecting me was lost in the midst of my reply. Thanks for your posts regards the Nag Hammadhi. I do have this inquiry to make. It is my understanding that Carl Jung's Discipline was Psychiatry and that he was the Founder of the Branch of Psychiatry named "Analytic Psychology." The distinction being that there is a separate Discipline called Psychology, is this not true? Although the recovered contents of what came to be the Jung codex later became when published known as the Nag Hammadhi I recall that back in the period of 1975 we all waited with baited breath for the first real Publication. As the story was told then that each and every one of the Western Orthodox Religions refused to sponsor or fund the project of publication and were steadfastly against it. I got one copy of the first 15 copies in L.A. in 1977. The survey you except regards the problem of "Evil" as viewed by historical and contemporary scholars is interesting, however it may be that it is the word concept itself as secondary production of the common universal conditioned mindedness of the humanity itself that presents the defined outline for us. One way might be to go up a rung and instead of "Evil" contrast "Truth" when asking "what is Truth?" a reply might be --- "The absence of error". In the context of gradient Transcendental Truth completely fulfills the definition and the mechanics of the projection of the Samsaric is universally inclusive of it's entirety whether Ego, Objects, Thought or Consciousness that matriculates Activity as such may be. All the Lila of Vishnu is means of participation, the implication seems that the Timeless assumes Timeness as a Garb and Robe of Glory but being Veiled to the Hylic and most of the others, the interiorized subjectively and reactively become bond to the "informing" authority of the conditioned mind. Finally they reach a point where the strongest pertinent guiding reality is "I am a body" , distinctions are carried forward from there to further augment and make solid and most concrete anchor to materialism. In your mention of the "I-I,I-It" and the other two conditional orders, my reflection is that these are a restating of the structural form of the Dialectic Inquiry of both the Platonic and Katayapa systems anciently used in the East for arriving at Truth. The first Set: "What Happens if the contemplated Object" "Is" or "Is Not" The Second Set" "What Happens if the contemplated Object" Neither "Is" or "Is Not' The Third Set: "What happens if the contemplated Object Simultaneously "Is" or "Is Not" Now these Primary Sets where further inspected individually and wheeled through the Secondary Conditionals vis: Is or Is Not as regards "I-I (Self to Self") "I-It(Self to Another) "It-It (Another to Another) "We-We" (Another back to Self) Just as and aside many years ago in 1968 Scientology Called these "Triple-flows and later Quad-flows", the difference being that they significantly augmented the process through the use of their "E-Meter technology." Additionally a long list of "Perceptions" and "Somatics" then also "wheeled to encompass the Senses, Organs of Sense, etc. Now many of the current people not ever having exposure to the East they cannot connect the dots so to speak as the time tried Old becomes the New. I do hope you will post my in the genre of the current posts. John From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:46:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 03:46:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 13404 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 03:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 03:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 03:46:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2002 03:46:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 03:46:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's latest posting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <147.3bac9d0.2b189edb@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2141 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >=20 > In a message dated 11/27/02 8:27:30 AM, dhyana@w... writes: >=20 > >If it is right that Socialism and Communism ("We are all equal")=20 in its > >several variations was invented by the background power in the=20 Vatican > >to destroy the Protestant movement in Germany, then it is no=20 wonder why > >the ruling red caps and the pupils of the Frankfurt school in=20 Austria (and > >also in Germany) are so furious about HPB, as Theosophy was=20 brought to > >the West to stop Socialism under all its masks. > >Frank >=20 > Judging by your speculative (iffy) statement that what you imply=20 about the=20 > "invention" of Socialism and Communism, etc., you believe to be=20 true...=20 > Doesn't that also imply -- since the US constitution is based on=20 the=20 > Declaration of Independence which says, "...all men are created=20 equal"=A0--=20 > that you also believe the US is a 'masked' Socialist country, and=20 that=20 > theosophy was introduced in America by HPB to "stop" or overthrow=20 it? Could=20 > we assume, then, by such subtly sly implications -- that you might=20 be trying=20 > to propagandize us American theosophists into believing that HPB=20 wanted us to=20 > become an anti government political movement? If so, I think she=20 would come=20 > flying out of her urn in one of her typical cold rages at=20 the "dumbheads"=20 > among us who haven't the faintest idea what "Universal Brotherhood"=20 means.=20 > (Not to imply anything personal, of course. ;-)=20 > LHM ************ LHM: I see you finally got something right. No one knows=20 what "universal brotherhood" means. The closest in theory IMO and=20 research is the Islamic faith, for all the castigation and malignment=20 it has taken. Thus while Theosophy may be called Buddhism on the=20 surface it is Islamic under the skin.=20 She need not rematerialize from her urn of cold ash. BTW she was more=20 of a political creature than I think you give her credit. In her=20 former incarnation as ISIS she wanted to rule the 'known world,'=20 including all of Palestine and Israel. Her complexity is unsurpassed=20 by anyone in history. What say you of the "Master of the 7?" Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 20:08:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 04:08:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 98987 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 04:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 04:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 04:08:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2002 04:08:03 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 04:08:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Jung, Buber, Freud, Nietzsche and Gnosticism -- Part II Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1c9.25ca73a.2b1adee0@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6570 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.208.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 Thank you for your comments John. I do not understand your very last line however. As for Jung, I just put all of his books I own together so that I might better look at them as a whole, the writer I quoted stated that Jung was a 'psychologist' and this surprised me as well. That he broke from Freud "the godless Jew" by his own appellation, is a matter of history. But Freud was a psychiatrist, meaning that he employed the techniques of a psychiatrist and was an M.D. naturally. I think he is credited with inventing psychoanalysis (which I call unadulterated rubbish and quackery). I will check on Jung's credentials. But if he is a psychologist then he need only be a Ph.D. rather than and instead of an M.D.. Yes, psychology and psychiatry are two separate disciplines. One being an MD (psychiatry) and the other not even close to needing to be an MD. Do you know Ken Wilber's work? He is a transpersonal psychologist. However, he started off studying to be an MD. He does not ever have to deal with man as a physical being, but he is holistic in his approach nonetheless. This is a general description. And yes, your points about I-I and Advaita are well taken. That (MD part) might also explain why he may have broken with Freud. They differed on the 'God' part obviously. I think he might have also taken issue with Freud's "interpretation of dreams and his 'borrowing' of the Oedipal Complex" as a catch basin for every cause of man's psychoses and neuroses. And by Jung's eventual belief in Oriental thought he would HAVE to be diametrically opposed to such a simplification of life and its meaning. I think that IMO Freud was a wannabe Nietzsche, and I mean to do some research along those lines. But Jung's interpretations of Eastern thought and philosophy are of top quality IMO. One might define Truth as the 'absence of error' as you put it. But it is much much more than that. It is a constant presence which I believe can and must be attained to. I do believe in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit (aka Paraclete). I believe it to be a part of every human being. That is the only source of Truth for humanity and without it there is evil--evil within and without. I tell everyone that the Middle Ages is the beginning of the 'New Age' and indeed it was at that time that the word 'modern' was coined. It informs much of what I KNOW now. Netemara ****************** --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Netemara, > Forgive me for using this e-mail to reply to your immediate previous > e-mail > which due to my ISP disconnecting me was lost in the midst of my reply. > Thanks for your posts regards the Nag Hammadhi. I do have this inquiry > to make. > It is my understanding that Carl Jung's Discipline was Psychiatry and > that he was > the Founder of the Branch of Psychiatry named "Analytic Psychology." The > distinction being that there is a separate Discipline called Psychology, > is this not > true? > Although the recovered contents of what came to be the Jung codex > later became > when published known as the Nag Hammadhi I recall that back in the period > of > 1975 we all waited with baited breath for the first real Publication. As > the story was > told then that each and every one of the Western Orthodox Religions > refused to > sponsor or fund the project of publication and were steadfastly against > it. I got one > copy of the first 15 copies in L.A. in 1977. > > The survey you except regards the problem of "Evil" as viewed by > historical and > contemporary scholars is interesting, however it may be that it is the > word concept > itself as secondary production of the common universal conditioned > mindedness of > the humanity itself that presents the defined outline for us. One way > might be to go up > a rung and instead of "Evil" contrast "Truth" when asking "what is Truth?" > a reply > might be --- "The absence of error". In the context of gradient > Transcendental Truth > completely fulfills the definition and the mechanics of the projection of > the Samsaric > is universally inclusive of it's entirety whether Ego, Objects, Thought or > Consciousness that matriculates Activity as such may be. All the Lila of > Vishnu > is means of participation, the implication seems that the Timeless assumes > Timeness as a Garb and Robe of Glory but being Veiled to the Hylic and > most of the > others, the interiorized subjectively and reactively become bond to the > "informing" > authority of the conditioned mind. Finally they reach a point where the > strongest > pertinent guiding reality is "I am a body" , distinctions are carried > forward from there > to further augment and make solid and most concrete anchor to materialism. > > In your mention of the "I-I,I-It" and the other two conditional orders, > my reflection is > that these are a restating of the structural form of the Dialectic Inquiry > of both the > Platonic and Katayapa systems anciently used in the East for arriving at > Truth. > > The first Set: > "What Happens if the contemplated Object" > > "Is" or "Is Not" > > The Second Set" > "What Happens if the contemplated Object" > Neither > "Is" or "Is Not' > > The Third Set: > "What happens if the contemplated Object > Simultaneously > "Is" or "Is Not" > > Now these Primary Sets where further inspected individually and wheeled > through > the Secondary Conditionals vis: > > Is or Is Not as regards "I-I (Self to Self") > "I-It(Self to Another) > "It-It (Another to Another) > "We-We" (Another back to Self) > > > Just as and aside many years ago in 1968 Scientology Called these > "Triple-flows > and later Quad-flows", the difference being that they significantly > augmented the > process through the use of their "E-Meter technology." > > Additionally a long list of "Perceptions" and "Somatics" then also > "wheeled to > encompass the Senses, Organs of Sense, etc. Now many of the current > people > not ever having exposure to the East they cannot connect the dots so to > speak > as the time tried Old becomes the New. > > I do hope you will post my in the genre of the current posts. > > John From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Nov 30 21:26:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 05:26:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 1835 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 05:26:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 05:26:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 05:26:17 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ba.30fd1c4f (3964) for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:26:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:26:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Brian's latest posting To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Steve, Where did I make the statement about Socialism that you clipped out of context -- (probably from a long questioning sentence I may have written to someone else)? Also, what does it have to do with Brian's latest posting? Besides all that being very misleading, I think your definition of socialism is also way off the mark. And, if I did mention it, it had an entirely different connotation. So, let's define it as follows: (to prevent any more misunderstandings when you pontificate on what you seem to know about everything.:-) "Socialism n 1. A social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community." (American Heritage Dictionary) Under that definition, is it any wonder that the wealthy capitalists who control our Western governments hate it like poison? While I do not subscribe to political "Socialism" -- when I was in business, all my corporations were employee owned and operated, even though we did business in a Capitalist, and supposedly, democratic, system, where the political power should be exercised by the "whole community." If that's your idea of "feudalism writ large," I'll eat my hat. (Although, the way things are going these days, I'll admit that the US, with its political oligarchy and their corporate cronies promoting "Globalization" and a "New World Order" is beginning to look like the beginnings of Feudalism -- with a new twist. Maybe we should reread Orwell's, 1984, and get prepared.:-) LHM. In a message dated 11/29/02 9:15:18 AM, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> the US is a 'masked' Socialist country > >Don't think so. Socialism is just feudalism writ large, in which >everyone in the society who was formerly a peasant becomes >reclassified as an aristocrat, and v.v. It was originally a reaction >of the remnants of feudalism to the industrial revolution, and is >popular in countries with a long feudal tradition. It is the lack of >a feudal tradition in the US which is responsible for the failure of >socialism to find much sympathy there. From gregory@zeta.org.au Sat Nov 30 23:20:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 07:20:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 56313 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 07:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 07:20:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 07:20:12 -0000 Received: from [61.8.18.155] (ppp155.dyn18.pacific.net.au [61.8.18.155]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05600 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:20:09 +1100 Message-Id: <200212010720.SAA05600@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: "Brian" and Leadbeater's court records Date: Sun, 1 Dec 02 18:20:58 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 In a recent posting =B3Brian=B2 (whoever he or she may be) announces that h= e has acquired records of the =B3court hearings of the child molestation ch= arges=B2 against Leadbeater. These should, indeed, be interesting documents= , since no such hearings ever occurred. The allegations against Leadbeater = occurred at several points in his career: 1. During his time as an Anglican clergyman there seem to have been some al= legations (hitherto not published) which may have partially explained his s= udden departure from England to follow Madame Blavatsky. No criminal charge= s or court hearings occurred. 2. The 1906 allegations, which led to Leadbeater=B9s resignation from the T= heosophical Society, were never subjected to any judicial inquiry. There is= a very interesting legal question as to whether Olcott and the members of = the TS committee that conducted the internal inquiry into the matter were g= uilty of the British crime (which no longer exists) of misprision of felony= : a serious allegation of child sexual assault had been made to them, the a= lleged offender made sufficient admissions to suggest that a felony had bee= n committed, and they did nothing to report the matter to the police. It is= , however, arguable that, since the alleged offenses occurred outside the B= ritish jurisdiction (i.e. in the USA), no offense had been committed under = British law. Serious discussion of the dangers of misprision of felony aros= e in British Theosophical circles in relation to admissions of homosexual o= ffenses relating to James Wedgwood in the 1920=B9s. 3. A further allegation against Leadbeater arose in 1912 in connection with= the case brought by Krishnamurti=B9s father, Narayaniah, to regain custody= of his son. Narayaniah alleged that he had seen Leadbeater =B3committing a= n unnatural offense=B2 with Krishnamurti. This allegation was fairly quickl= y abandoned by Narayaniah, and was found to have no substance in the court= =B9s final judgement. The details of the 1906 case were considered to some = extent by the court; Leadbeater denied ever having had any physical contact= with his boy pupils (which he had admitted to the 1906 committee), but, ve= ry strangely, stated that he had helped one boy to =B3overcome the necessit= y of circumcision=B2 by means of =B3indicative action=B2. The court did not= pursue this curious statement. The court determined that Leadbeater was un= fit to associate with children, not on the basis of proven misconduct, but = because of his =B3immoral ideas=B2. 4. The so-called =B3Sydney troubles=B2 began with allegations made to the S= ydney Police from the Point Loma Theosophists in 1917. There was an initial= , very superficial Police investigation in 1917, and a detailed inquiry in = 1922. Although the Point Loma allegations related essentially to the events= of 1906, the Police inquiry considered possible current sexual offenses. T= he inquiry took evidence and statements from a number of people, including = Krishnamurti and his brother, Nityananda, although Leadbeater refused to be= interviewed. The substantial records of this inquiry make very interesting= reading. The Police clearly concluded that there had been a sexual relatio= nship between Leadbeater and some of his boys, but that there were no real = prospects for obtaining a conviction, given the unquestioning loyalty of th= e boys to their teacher. The matter did not, therefore, lead to charges bef= ore any court. The =B3inner side=B2 of what had been occurring between Lead= beater and his boys (as disclosed by some of his disciples) was finally rev= ealed in my PhD thesis in 1986, although some details had been given in =B3= The Elder Brother=B2. 5. Public allegations were made in Sydney newspapers in 1926 (with headline= s like =B3Leadbeater=B9s Illicit Lessons Lead Boys Astray=B2), and one of L= eadbeater=B9s close disciples, Gustav Kollerstrom, initiated a law suit aga= inst one of the newspapers concerned. The paper was delighted and announced= its intentions of calling Leadbeater as a witness, and producing the recor= ds of the Police inquiry. Kollerstrom sought to withdraw his action, the ne= wspaper refused to agree, and when the case reached the court Kollerstrom f= ailed to present a case, and was ordered to pay the full costs of the newsp= aper. The court did not consider the allegations against Leadbeater at all. So: Leadbeater was never charged with or tried for any sexual offenses, no = charges were ever laid or tried, and no judicial decisions ever made with r= egard to allegations of sexual misconduct (with the exception of Narayaniah= =B9s abandoned claim in the 1912 custody case).=20 I therefore await with great anticipation the production of the records of = the =B3court hearings of the child molestation charges=B2 against Leadbeate= r.=20 Dr Gregory Tillett From gregory@zeta.org.au Sat Nov 30 23:20:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 07:20:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 96062 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 07:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 07:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 07:20:18 -0000 Received: from [61.8.18.155] (ppp155.dyn18.pacific.net.au [61.8.18.155]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05612 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:20:15 +1100 Message-Id: <200212010720.SAA05612@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: Does Paul Johnson exist? Date: Sun, 1 Dec 02 18:21:04 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 Does Paul Johnson exist, or is he simultaneously two people on opposite sides of the planet, or does he have a split personality ... or does he have an additional persona known as Brian (or two: Brian and Brigitte) or is Paul an additional persona of Brian or Brigitte or both of them (or of Brigid or Brion or Bran or Brigita)... or are all three pseudonyms used by a fourth person .... or is the fourth person a fictional personality created by the other three who has now taken on a life of its own .... the possibilities are endless. Of the existence of Paul Johnson, I have no doubt, always assuming that when I met, spoke and ate with him, stayed in his house and drove in a vehicle with him I was not under some form of spell. Of the existence of Brigitte I am reasonably certain: information provided by the University of Vienna, both officially and unofficially, satisfies me of that. Of Brian .... well, who knows? And I am more than certain that Paul and Brigitte (and/or Brian) are not and have never been the same person! Paul is educated, literate, rational and an outstanding scholar of Theosophical history (regardless of whether or not I agree with him on everything). The evidence of postings by Brigitte and Brian does not suggest the same can be said of either of them. Dr Gregory Tillett